Midlife Crisis: Support for Left Behind Spouses
Archives => Archived Topics => Topic started by: Lovebystanding on September 11, 2013, 08:40:13 AM
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BLOG TOPIC
How does one spot a midlife crisis vs. narcissist or psychopathology?
Is it a personality disorder or midlife crisis? Or could it even be both–someone with a personality disorder who is having an MLC?
.....anyone with thoughts on the above blog topic?
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This is something I cycle with - my husband had been diagnosed bipolar in 2010. There are elements that cross over into each thing, so it makes it hard to gauge. But, if you take an assessment of what they were like during the duration of your relationship and what you know of them before you were together, and compare whether or not there was a sudden change that is unlike any other time in their lives that you know of - you'll have about as good of an answer as you can get right now, with them still in this state of mind. I also check bipolar forums and websites for similarities and differences that may give me clues. There are NPD boards and sites as well that help.
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This is a topic that I have been thinking about a lot lately. The level of narcissism that the MLCer displays really makes you question if it is due to MLC or was it there all along. In my situation, there has always been some selfishness but it was never destructive like it is right now.
Looking forward to what others have to say :D
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All I know is that a midlifer displays characteristics of narcissism, personality disorder & yes psychopathy [or is it sociopathy?]. In my h's case these were characteristics I had never, in almost 40 years, seen before BD. He was mildly irritable & slightly bitter for a few years pre BD.
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This is a topic that I have been thinking about a lot lately. The level of narcissism that the MLCer displays really makes you question if it is due to MLC or was it there all along. In my situation, there has always been some selfishness but it was never destructive like it is right now.
Looking forward to what others have to say :D
For me this was not a consistant display previous to BD.
All I know is that a midlifer displays characteristics of narcissism, personality disorder & yes psychopathy [or is it sociopathy?]. In my h's case these were characteristics I had never, in almost 40 years, seen before BD. He was mildly irritable & slightly bitter for a few years pre BD.
My H also displayed irritability for a few years before also. It was so gradual that it didn't raise any flags until I looked back.
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It's always been there I never saw it due to my own codependency issues.
I used to think it was him that kept us together.. and in a really sick way it was. I mistook all the controlling as caring.
This comes from my own alcoholic upbringing trying to prove my value to someone else. His parents were the only people I ever saw interact that were married. We lived with them in a separate apt for a time.. And I thought what she did; I was supposed to do.
Their relationship was pretty twisted and I didn't see that either.
I'm more than sure it's NPD not necessarily sociopath; but not too far from it. The only thing he didn't have was short-term relationships only a couple of girlfriends before me which he hated me for also.
Like it was MY fault he didn't have many other experiences with women!
Thank God I saved a lot of women from him is all I can say.. He's obsessive and jealous and controlling. He hides how he feels ALL of the time except for his anger. HE"S ALWAYS BEEN LIKE THIS.
His job loss was the last straw for him and he went off the deep end. I saw all kinds of ways we could have made money we were in a pretty good financial situation but he just had to have this "thing" he took up with and I was the enemy. Everything has always been my fault.
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My H exhibited anger episodes like his father and others on his family side...volatile (emotionally or physically) when things do not go their way.
Also H always wore a mask—so others will not see the Monster.
I used to point it out to him ......in front of others he always wants to be seen as a nice guy.
As a result what he has now done comes as a shock to others bc most people
have only seen Mr Nice .... they conclude that maybe I am the cause of the breakdown.
It is possible I am dealing with both–someone with a personality disorder who is having an MLC.
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in front of others he always wants to be seen as a nice guy.
Yep- you got that right. I really think it's NPD in varying degrees. Your situation sounds a lot like mine did.
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Like u in it, I too mistook all the controlling as caring.
H wanted to do everything his way and in the beginning I thought he was being helpful
but over the years i felt controlled .
Of course i started allowing him to do things his way but then wud get blamed that he had to do
everything.
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This is a topic that I have been thinking about a lot lately. The level of narcissism that the MLCer displays really makes you question if it is due to MLC or was it there all along. In my situation, there has always been some selfishness but it was never destructive like it is right now.
Looking forward to what others have to say :D
For me this was not a consistant display previous to BD.
All I know is that a midlifer displays characteristics of narcissism, personality disorder & yes psychopathy [or is it sociopathy?]. In my h's case these were characteristics I had never, in almost 40 years, seen before BD. He was mildly irritable & slightly bitter for a few years pre BD.
My H also displayed irritability for a few years before also. It was so gradual that it didn't raise any flags until I looked back.
Mine was irritated (mildly) 2010 to 2011. Towards end 2011, all of 2012 and early 2013, terrible monster present alot of the time. Never recognised it for what it was until I found this site.
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Of course i started allowing him to do things his way but then wud get blamed that he had to do
everything.
The difference between you and I is I would FIGHT. I mean I couldn't suggest anything be done differently..I didn't have a brain ...right? So that's when I would fight.
I still did everything...but he was always RIGHT..
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This may sound petty...but if i placed things in the dishwasher H wud redo it his way.
Gives u an idea as to why I stopped arguing and let him do it his way...his father was the same...very controlling.They always hv to be right!
BTW in it mine too hides how he feels ALL of the time except for his anger.
His job change this year and father's dementia last year was the last straw for him .Everything has always been my fault too.
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A narcissist will escalate in order to keep the LBS’s attention and focus and to make the LBS suffer......this is why I went NC.
BLOG "Monster is not typically a state an MLCer lives in for the entire crisis or even all of Escape & Avoid. Monster is a self-preservation strategy rather than a delight in cruelty. If you recognize these behaviors, but they have been present for an extended uninterrupted period and the motivation seems to be to delight in cruelty, you may be dealing with something more serious than MLC"
If it is more serious than MLC what advise wud u give the LBS ?....wrt to D?
Any thoughts on this?
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I'm pretty sure this one LOVED the emotional pain he inflicted. I'm glad I m divorced now..it's a personal decision.
BEST ONE he ever made for my best interest...but I think it may have backfired on him.. ;)
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A narcissist will escalate in order to keep the LBS’s attention and focus and to make the LBS suffer......this is why I went NC.
Are you referring to a true narcissist or the narcissistic behavior displayed by the MLCer?
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Well BOTH really..the BEHAVIOR was magnified by the MLC
Nothing was ever done by him without and ulterior motive.
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A narcissist will escalate in order to keep the LBS’s attention and focus and to make the LBS suffer......this is why I went NC.
His escalation now ( he thinks) is holding onto all of my personal papers. I had requested them back Memorial Day weekend and still haven't gotten them. I've asked for them two other times. Guess what?..I don't need to ask anymore.
Still puzzles me though..kicks me out with the clothes on my back..escorted by Troopers to a wellness center..I get out five hours later and show up at the house..he then drives me in a car and strands me 30 miles from home.
I return two weeks later for my personal papers and clothes I get assaulted...
I get the message. It's pretty clear he wants nothing to do with me..so why not just give me the papers back and have every trace of me gone?
I can answer my own question...CONTROL.
Now I'm NC and plan on STAYING THAT WAY.
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There is a fine line between the behaviour during MLC and prior in some cases.
What i wanted to know is how does one accertain whether the MLcer has both a personality
disorder and MLC ....since the anger shown as Moster may hv also been there prior to MLC.
Monster is not there always during MLC but someone with a personality disorder cud also be exhibiting the symptoms of MLC.
Depression cud hv been the cause for anger prior to MLC. H had to change jobs and lost his mother
15 yrs earlier with similar behaviour but did not hv the symptoms of MLC like now.
Are those with depression/personality disorders more prone to MLC?
Standing for our marriages is what we want but what are the implications for a LBS wrt standing when the MLcer also has a personality disorder?
BLOG
"Monster is not typically a state an MLCer lives in for the entire crisis or even all of Escape & Avoid. Monster is a self-preservation strategy rather than a delight in cruelty. If you recognize these behaviors, but they have been present for an extended uninterrupted period and the motivation seems to be to delight in cruelty, you may be dealing with something more serious than MLC"
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"Monster is not typically a state an MLCer lives in for the entire crisis or even all of Escape & Avoid. Monster is a self-preservation strategy rather than a delight in cruelty.
If you recognize these behaviors, but they have been present for an extended uninterrupted period and the motivation seems to be to delight in cruelty, you may be dealing with something more serious than MLC"
The delight in cruelty thing seems really to be what I have been dealing with. It's like he's looking for someone to PAY for what's happened for his WHOLE life!
I really don't think this is a MLC He's suffered some losses he didn't know how to handle and has to blame someone..he can't blame himself then he would have to deal with it!!
This only MAGNIFIED what he already was exhibiting to begin with.
There are men on here who would never even think about being physically violent with a woman. This one is ....so what would anyone's conclusion be?
Whatever I'm dealing with may be far and apart from everyone else. But there's enough here that I can relate to. Thanks for the Blog spot! :)
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I was accused, by my h of abusing him for ten years. I had pms and we would argue, my h was very argumentative and would be like a dog with a bone, if we went out drinking and I had pms the argument would escalate. H would never back down and I guess I didn't either. He told me I was angry everytime I didn't get my own way? I wasn't, I got angry when my h goaded and argued with me when I was low, he was the same when I had post natal depression, although he claims to have made a Herculean effort. We pulled apart when things got difficult rather than pulling together.
I think we all exhibit personality disorder traits at different times. BPD sounds a bit like me when my pms was really severe and I had been out drinking, in my twenties!!! I grew out of the angry outbursts ... Does that make it personality disorder? If I was personality disordered would I be able to hide these traits from my kids or my family or my close friends Or my colleagues? Can you grow out of a personality disorder or does it stay with you forever?
My h was really selfish, he told some pretty heinous lies to avoid me abandoning him and he was pretty nasty at times, he was passive aggressive and didnt like it if he didnt get his own way. Does this meAn he has personality disorder or is he just a bit messed up because of his FOO situation?
I need to do a more learning about personality disorders. Being out of the R is giving me a better perspective on myself and his behaviour, especially as things were so tough in the last couple of years due to his MLC and our circumstances, lots of gaslighting, but I still have a way to go in understanding it.
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We pulled apart when things got difficult rather than pulling together.
This same thing happened to us also. I saw the problem a long time ago but he would fight me over every suggestion. The HARD times are supposed to PULL YOU TOGETHER NOT APART. I told him this once when I went back up there to try to deal with this.
I met some one who had lost a child and said the anguish of that brought them TOGETHER even more than they were before.
Our relationship never suffered a loss like that. And it definitely wouldn't have survived that either. I thought about that later.
I think we all exhibit personality disorder traits at different times.
Of course we do ...or we would all be robots.
BPD sounds a bit like me when my pms was really severe and I had been out drinking, in my twenties!!! I grew out of the angry outbursts ... Does that make it personality disorder? If I was personality disordered would I be able to hide these traits from my kids or my family or my close friends Or my colleagues? Can you grow out of a personality disorder or does it stay with you forever?
I think you can grow if you can look at yourself and see something you don't like yourself or view as a weakness.
These diagnosis are really messed up most of the time. I think they are labeled so we might be able to understand them..then they don't seem so unidentifiable and scary.
Doesn't matter. You have to look at yourself and how you've dealt with life conditions.
Then if you want to go the next step try to see how whatever happened to them effected them.
Then the understanding of how all of this happened might be clearer.
Foo issues have a lot to do with all of this also.
If these were perfect situations these would all be life transitions Not Crisis's.
Two people would find each other after kids are grown and gone and find new hobbies etc to do with each other.
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BLOG
"Monster is not typically a state an MLCer lives in for the entire crisis or even all of Escape & Avoid. Monster is a self-preservation strategy rather than a delight in cruelty. If you recognize these behaviors, but they have been present for an extended uninterrupted period and the motivation seems to be to delight in cruelty, you may be dealing with something more serious than MLC"
Yes, except that, if that was not there before it cannot be a personality disorder because those do no turn up in adulthood. They turn up during teem and early 20's but mostly teens.
However mood disorders: depression, bipolar, schizophrenia can turn up at any age.
Mine has never delight in cruelty before. He has since. Or at least that is what is seem to me see him do since a while into his crisis. It may be self preservation, who knows? he has been on Replay for so long that I kind of find it hard that he still manages Replay behaviour.
Me and Mr J had always been pulled together when things get tough. In fact, things were far from the though we had been through when he left. Maybe inside him they have never been worst but in life terms they have.
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Well I met him when he was about 21. Had a break up with a girlfriend about his age. She broke up with him.
Then he started "dating" 16 year old whose mother was going through a divorce. So he was the "babysitter" for her.
His mom had breast cancer back the but he had no real relationship with them due the humiliation his father caused him mostly.
And that what he LOVES to inflict HUMILIATION.
And I just don't buy that emotion and never have. I did for a while three years ago when exow entered the picture but NO MORE. He could even start seeing her again or somebody else and I couldn't care LESS.
He's got more issues than I care to address; his entitled attitude comes from BOTH of his parents.
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Recall from Your memories is Your spouse, before hit crisis, had one personality for the home and family, and a lot different for rest of the world.
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Yeah- no kidding doesn't everyone?
No one usually acts the same exact way in front of everyone. I know what friends I can say do or be what with but the one underlying thing is I try to stay TRUE to the person I am. I try to be honest and someone people can TRUST.
These two things IMHO are what at least a person I would want in my life to be able to be.
And if something MAJOR happened to destroy that for me? I would hope that person would be emotionally invested enough that they would have found some kind of value in the person I am to not want to lose the relationship.
I didn't expect someone to sacrifice who they are to "make it up" to me. SOME kind of remorse or sincere gesture would have been just fine.
However I was made no promises by the former Mlcer that any relationship was possible.
He told me " He had nothing left"
And as time went on I discovered EVERY emotion he ever had whether it was compassion, empathy, concern, caring or anything else that might have helped what was not happening in the relationship he had given to the exow.
I remember the day I realized it I said to him " My God you gave her everything"
But now I wonder if he ever really did have those emotions to begin with - but even as I type this the wonder simply disappears.
I don't care there's really no animosity involved with it I just know if I can't count on a person to be somewhat honest and caring and have SOME consideration I'm just not interested in having a relationship with them.
I've had enough toxic people in my life to recognize them..it either just took me a long time to see it or I refused to due to having kids and thinking he'd " mature".
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There cud be another side to MLCers who have lived a life of accomodation all their lives
and feel that it is time to change and choose for themselves ...for eg
is it possible that some MLcers marry the person that they parents wud approve of rather than one whom they wud prefer and once the parents pass away or hv alzeihmers they make the transition.
Which means they have worn a mask all those years in the marriage....like those who were gay married the opposite sex ,had children and later in life came out and made the transition.
Wud this be MLC?
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Which means they have worn a mask all those years in the marriage....like those who were gay married the opposite sex ,had children and later in life came out and made the transition.
Wud this be MLC?
I don't know..I have a friend who's relative came out of the closest and they are in thier late 40's . They were married and had children; the H never saw it coming.
It so hard to believe someone can wear a "mask" for the long term but I guess there must be people out there that do and can.
Something happens for them to blow a gasket and create this kind of devastation. I think it's a combination of a lot of things. And a fear of mortality seems to lead the way...the "running out of time" thing.
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People with pathological PD cannot sustain long therm relationship except they find partner whit who they can play their twisted dance. ie spouse is codependent. Like narcissist and codependent narcissist. Anyway healthy spouse cannot live long period of time with someone who have PD. PD person simply suck up from You all Your emotional energy and then when You become zombie, they kick You out into dumpster. And show true face to You cold blood killer face, You are simply history for them, expired, done for good. That is called narcissistic rage. They don't got from You anymore eliksir of life... narcissistic supply.
There is no MLC for them, and their decision is final. You are history.
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People with pathological PD cannot sustain long therm relationship except they find partner whit who they can play their twisted dance. ie spouse is codependent. Like narcissist and codependent narcissist. Anyway healthy spouse cannot live long period of time with someone who have PD. PD person simply suck up from You all Your emotional energy and then when You become zombie, they kick You out into dumpster. And show true face to You cold blood killer face, You are simply history for them, expired, done for good. That is called narcissistic rage. They don't got from You anymore eliksir of life... narcissistic supply.
There is no MLC for them, and their decision is final. You are history.
Oh no they or not ..they are NOT DONE especially if they have a tie to you in the form of CHILDREN.
They keep the games up for a LONG AS POSSIBLE. They have lost thier favorite toy in the codependent ...thier FEED and they really will do just about anything NOT TO LOSE THAT.
I can only WISH I was history and someone to be left alone. THAT's why I have to be really really really strong right now.
Trouble is he has three other people to set that FEED up with..it won't be the same as ME BUT it might sustain him. That's what scares me his influence on my daughters.
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Then he haven't any PD if you say like You say.
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So Albatross is this MLC?...or not?
My H exhibits all the symptoms , according to RCR ,of a person in MLC.
He wants to hv fun with a younger OW?..He is 55. OW 34
Yet I am unsure ..... he always wanted to please his authoritarian father and
now that his father has alzeihmers he perhaps feels that it is time to make his own choice of partner
and move on.
Do such people have a personality disorder?..seems like it.
Like Calamity and kikki say:
Normal' breakups are planned events. You know they are coming. You talk about the demise before it happens. The Bomb is not dropped on you from out of nowhere.
In 'normal' breakups, the leaving spouse has a plan. You know where they will be living, it is explained to the children, and that person continues to parent the kids as before.
In MLC - the alienator seems to provide the escape accommodation, or seems to have a large hand in organising it in some way, as the MLCer is not thinking with enough clarity to do it by themselves, the kids lose that parent in terms of normal functioning, and in quite a few cases the MLCer disappears and you don't know where they are living.
This is what my H has done...the alienator has provided the accomodation.
If H has made up his mind then he is done and there is no MLC as u said...i am history.
Why even after 9 mths has'nt H not filed?
I sent him a Co.-parenting form 6 mths ago ...he did not even sign it?
Albatross any thoughts on the above?
LBS
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Albatross what do you mean he doesn't have a personality disorder?
It's called "transference"
He'll transfer the control to my daughters and his mother.
HE doesn't have ME anymore to feed off and get some kind of "sick kick" out of so he will use them instead.
Of course he has a PD and a NPD and an MLC.
Now if he only had a PHD he might have a JOB and not have had most of this trouble to begin with. Unfortunately He has NO work ethic or ambition.
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In It what Albatross is saying is that u are dealing perhaps not just with MLC but something more serious.
That is what the blog says:
If you recognize monster behaviors, but they have been present for an extended uninterrupted period and the motivation seems to be to delight in cruelty, you may be dealing with something more serious than MLC"
Maybe such cases don't reconcile....u are history as Albatross says...
The OW /OM also with a PD is the next to play their twisted dance bc they are like narcissist and codependent narcissist...a healthy person cannot carry on ....the R has to end.
These are true narcissists...maybe they then move on to OW2 and so on.....am i righ t Albatross?
Albatross. (People with pathological PD cannot sustain long therm relationship except they find partner whit who they can play their twisted dance. ie spouse is codependent. Like narcissist and codependent narcissist. Anyway healthy spouse cannot live long period of time with someone who have PD. PD person simply suck up from You all Your emotional energy and then when You become zombie, they kick You out into dumpster. And show true face to You cold blood killer face, You are simply history for them, expired, done for good. That is called narcissistic rage. They don't got from You anymore eliksir of life... narcissistic supply.
There is no MLC for them, and their decision is final. You are history)
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There is no MLC for them, and their decision is final. You are history
UNLESS the codependent in the twisted dance FINALLY GETS A CLUE then THE Narcissist are the one's who are history.
He'd do this for as long as I danced and played games and desperately wanted some kind of treatment for being a human being.
I'm DONE. So even if they say THEIR decision is FINAL..don't believe it.
It's TOTALLY over and I mean it.
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Interesting Information from another site on depression,chemical imbalance ,mood swings....
MLCers and OP in some cases may have some personality disorder as well.
Depression sign #1: Midlife Crisis'ERS WILL OFTEN VIEW THEIR LBS AND THEMSELVES AS ONE PERSON
The reason behind the Midlife Crisis'ers lack of boundaries comes because they do not view their LBS separate from themselves. They are so engulfed in negativity that they do not think clearly. As Midlife Crisis'ers look to their loved ones to define and deliver their happiness, Midlife Crisis'er eventually feel betrayed due to happiness being an internal thing not external. This "feeling" of betrayal may cause some of the anger we see in our Midlife Crisis'ers.
Depression sign #2: Midlife Crisis'ERS ARE UNABLE TO SUSTAIN AND MAINTAIN RELATIONSHIPS AS WELL AS RESOLVE RELATIONSHIP PROBLEMS.
Because of their irrational ways of thinking mainly due to a chemical imbalance in the brain, Midlife Crisis'ers will hear/interpret WHAT THEY THINK others are saying rather than hearing what really is being said. They destroy these relationships by hearing blame rather than suggestions or means to problem solve.
Depression sign #3: Midlife Crisis'S HAVE DEPENDENT PERSONALITIES.
We are overly dependent on others when we do not feel complete or whole. This is the very essence of a ML'er. As they continue through the tunnel, the ML'er gets much worse before they get better. The LBS is often forced into a "caregiver" role, trying desperately to fix the crisis. The ML'er becomes aware of their neediness and becomes jealous/envious of their loved ones strengths and efforts to help. Thus the ML'er responds with more anger.
Depression sign #4: ML'ERS ARE UNABLE TO SHOW EMOTIONAL SUPPORT
ML'ers are unable to stand the emotional pain they are creating. They become distant and indifferent to their loved ones. They view the LBS's as the cause of their own suffering and therefore treat them as strangers/enemies.
Depression sign #5: ML'ERS ARE EXTREME ATTENTION SEEKERS
Attention both positive and negative can confirm love and self-worth to the ML'er. To some ML'ers negative attention becomes better than no attention. Many have experienced "no attention" periods in their childhoods. Many ML'ers use drama, sinfulness, and confusion in an effort to get love. This then ensures the ML'er of keeping their LBS's close.
Depression sign #6: ML'ERS ARE SELF-CENTERED
It is all about them. As they become more absorbed in finding themselves, everyone else in their past life gradually becomes more and more obsolete. Most find their way back to what is really important - family and commitment. Unfortunately, they leave a heavy path of destruction which has to be faced.
Depression sign #7: ML'ER'S ARE UNABLE TO TRUST
How can ML'ers trust their LBS if they cannot trust themselves? Their emotions and thought processes are unpredictable and irrational. When ML'ers cannot trust, they often act out in angry outbursts and infidelity. They are searching for someone to reflect back to them an image of perfection and often heroism.
Depression sign #8: ML'ERS ARE UNABLE TO HANDLE STRESS
As ML'ers progress through the tunnel they become more and more unable to handle stress. Their life is now full of lies, deceptions, betrayals and manipulations. It becomes harder and harder to maintain their superficial world. Once they are reminded of some bit of reality revealing their inabilities and flaws, they react by getting angry, blaming, spewing, etc...
They do anything to avoid taking responsibility for their actions. If you doubt this try talking "relationship talks". You will no doubt be disappointed in the outcome. Until they are ready to repent and show remorse for their behaviors, relationship talks are useless.
Depression Sign #9: ML'ERS REWRITE HISTORY
Ml'ers typically have very low self-esteem. They will rewrite past events in their favor to try to build up their fragile egos. They would rather lie than face the possibility that something is wrong with them, let alone a mental illness. Many Ml'ers brain chemistry is skewed, not allowing them to distinguish between reality and distorted perceptions. However the distortions cannot go on forever.... As time goes on, they often get caught in their lies due to not being able to keep their stories straight.
Depression Sign #10: MOST ML'ERS HAVE AFFAIRS
The most painful and devastating part of the Midlife Crisis for the LBS and family is the affair or series of affairs. Emotional affairs as well as physical affairs occur and most emotional affairs turn into physical affairs for the ML'er. Some of the affairs result in producing a "love child". Some result in the Ml'er marrying the OW/OM. Even though the ML'er is not thinking clearly, there is no justification or excuse for committing adultery. This post is by no means meant to excuse their behavior. It is unacceptable. If it is forgivable depends upon the LBS and the ML'ers ability to repent and show sincere remorse.
An affair allows the Ml'er a distraction from the pain resulting from one or more of the following issues: childhood abandonment/abuse, grief, aging, health, job loss or dissatisfaction, parenting, sexual dysfunction, or financial. Ml'ers feel if they start over with someone else, all their issues will go away. Little do they realize how much they have just complicated their life not to mention all the pain they will inflict on "loved ones" and friends. They are self-absorbed and only care about trying to obtain their happiness.
The OW/OM knows little or nothing of the Ml'ers history or flaws. They are fed "rewriting of history" reports from the ML'er on their spouse or significant other. They start the relationship by idealizing the Ml'er. The Ml'er can portray him/herself as heroic, perfect, and accomplished. Both individuals are living a fantasy. Each believes they have found their soul mate. Newness of a relationship and sex partner is empowering. Morality is no longer important. Lust equals love in the Ml'ers mind.
The OW/OM are extremely flawed individuals. They have many issues as well. Some identical to the ML'er which helps create the "connection" so many Ml'ers claim they are missing with their LBS. Ml'ers choose someone who is safe. They choose someone who will not outshine them or pose a threat. The OW/OM is usually a very insecure, fragile individual who needs to be taken care of in some way, shape or form. In many cases, the ML'er tries to create in the OW/OM a version of their LBS. Some encourage them to dress and act like the LBS. They will often take them to the same places as they did the LBS. Being of weak character and integrity, the OW/OM allows this and goes along for the ride. Many are in it for the financial and social status benefits that the ML'er brings to the table. The ML'er is usually not looking at finding someone better than their LBS. They want to find someone that they can feel superior to which will help nurture their bruised egos.
Eventually, chemical imbalances, stress, and doses of reality hit the Ml'er causing them to display their true selves. Fears resurface in the Ml'er materializing as anger and hostility. The OW/OM no longer reflects back to the Ml'er intense feelings of admiration and perfection. Sex becomes routine. Many experience sexual dysfunction during the Midlife Crisis, but very much want to portray themselves as sexually potent individuals. Responsibilities increase for the ML'er especially if they are maintaining two households. Their world collapses very slowly. Almost to the point of being hard to detect for the LBS. The ML'er has come full circle. He/she is now at the same place they started. What the ML'er does at this point varies. Some go home after they realize the grass is not greener on the other side, others stay in this miserable state of self-pity and despair, and others just repeat the cycle and find OW/OM #2.
Depression sign #11: ML'ERS ARE CONTROL FREAKS
Ml'ers have no control over their behaviors and actions. They feel if they can control others as well as their environment they will eventually become whole again. This of course is not true. In fact, it usually has the opposite effect. The more controlling one is with others, the more we push them away.
How does the ML'er control others? By being verbally/physically abusive, manipulating, complaining, criticizing, blaming, saying things like "I want a divorce", "I never loved you", "I love you, but I am not in love with you", being impossible to please, having an affair, threatening to take your children away, threatening your living arrangements, threatening your financial status, losing his/her job, threatening suicide, etc. The list can go on and on.....
How does the Ml'er control their environment? Moving constantly, traveling more than usual, changing jobs, changing what they eat, changing how they dress, changing their overall appearance, what they drive, changing their friends, replacing their spouse, replacing their children, etc....
It is only when the ML'er realizes that they are not in ultimate control of others or things that a breakthrough can occur. That is why setting boundaries are important. It makes the ML'er realize their limitations and lack of control. Boundaries should be set in a firm but loving way. Ml'ers are more willing to respond to LBS's requests when this is done in a non-authoritative way.
Depression sign #12: ML'ERS HAVE EXTREME ANGER/RAGING/SPEWING
Mid-life crisis is a form of depression. Depression is anger turned inward. Unfortunately anger is a large part of the Midlife Crisis journey. Anger is the path of least resistance. It is easier for the ML'er to be angry than to deal with his/her issues. Until that pain is acknowledged, and experienced, it continues to trigger anger and depression.
Beneath anger lies pain, and beneath that pain lies fear. If we remember this, we are more likely to become more sympathetic to the ML'ers journey. Unfortunately at times, it is very difficult to do. The bulk of the ML'ers anger is directed at the LBS. Ml'ers very much want to alter the perceptions of the LBS' to match theirs.
Depression Sign #13: ML'ERS ARE INDIFFERENT
Indifferent is defined as "without interest or concern, not caring, disinterested, impartial and apathetic". Nothing is harder to live with than an indifferent person. Ml'ers are indifferent primarily toward their past life. They are no longer interested in what the LBS, children, relatives, dog, cat, best friend, or church group are doing. They could care less about the lawn being cut, the algae in the pool, the leaking roof, or the bills being paid. Their past life no longer exists. They truly become "aliens" to people who love them. There are many reasons why this happens. ML'ers are self absorbed and don't want to focus on anyone but themselves. ML'ers no longer want any responsibility in their lives and just want to have fun and freedom. People and things of the past remind the ML'er of their failures. What better way to not have to deal with their pain then to pretend people and things don't exist anymore.
This "indifference" creates a whole new set of problems for the LBS. They now have the responsibilities of two people. The LBS becomes overworked and overwhelmed not to mention emotionally devastated. Many times they become financially devastated as well. The ML'er does not seem to notice the turmoil they have caused the LBS and again are "indifferent".
Depression sign #14: ML'ERS CAN BE NARCISSISTIC
The ML'er is full of low self-worth. By focusing on their appearance, their possessions, and their needs they try to project an air of importance, mortality, and perfection. They seek attention by focusing on superficial things and soon discover that these things bring only fleeting moments of happiness. No matter how many times you remind the ML'er that happiness comes from within, they try to prove you wrong by buying the next item or enhancing another body part.
Everything is about the ML'er. Everybody else's needs don't exist.
Depression sign #15: ML'ERS MAKE POOR DECISIONS
Ml'ers base their decisions on emotions as well as faulty perceptions due to chemical imbalances in the brain. This prevents them from functioning properly in important areas of their life like the workplace and home. As they make their way through the mid life tunnel, they make more and more poor decisions eventually causing them to doubt their abilities. This is just another hit on their already low self-esteem.
This is where the role of the OW/OM comes into play. ML'ers often will give up some of their decision making power at this point and depend on their "soul mates" to intervene. The OW/OM may or may not have clearer thinking at this time but you can bet their thinking will be in THEIR favor. The ML'er is much easier to convince, manipulate and persuade than ever. Since this is not a relationship based on trust and love, each player in this dysfunctional relationship is out for himself/herself.
Ml'ers also will often choose not to make any decisions due to their mass confusion.
Depression sign #16: ML'ERS ARE POOR MONEY MANAGERS
ML'ers have no control over what they do with their money. They tend to be very impulsive and often spend like crazy and make bad investments. They also use their money to satisfy and impress the OW/OM in their life as well as new found friends. Traveling seems to increase. Credit cards are often used to their limit and they have no awareness of the consequences of their debt. Their past financial responsibilities such as bills, supporting their LBS and children are put on hold. This is no longer important to them and they seem oblivious to how they affect others. It is important that the LBS protect themselves financially at this time and sometimes that means resorting to legal assistance to prevent involvement with collection agencies and bankruptcy. Spending serves as a distraction as well as a feeling of power and control to the ML'er. Money makes them feel immortal and special. This feeling slowly dissipates as they face their pain and debt.
Depression sign #17: MOST ML'ERS ARE ABUSIVE
This is one of the most serious signs of depression - abuse.
Here I will focus on emotional abuse rather than physical abuse because I feel it is more prevalent in the ML'ers journey.
Emotional abuse can be divided into various categories:
A. Withholding: By withholding love, affection, accolades, sex, children, communication, etc.. the Ml'er is saying I have something you want and I can withhold it from you. The Ml'er can take this even a step further by withholding love and affection from you and then giving it to someone else.
B. Discounting: By discounting the LBS' perceptions, the Ml'er is saying I can point out your uselessness.
C. Accusing and blaming: By blaming the LBS, the Ml'er is saying the LBS is to blame for their pain no matter what they do to you so they don't have to stop or be accountable.
D. Judging and criticizing: By judging the LBS, the Ml'er is saying to the LBS that when I tell you that something is wrong with your thoughts and actions, I put myself in charge of you.
E. Threatening: This a way for the ML'er to have control over the LBS to imply that they will take away something valuable to them, such as family life, financial stability, home, etc....
F. Name Calling: By calling names, the Ml'er is saying to the LBS that they are worthless and don't exist.
G. Denial: By denying what they are doing to you, the Ml'er can keep everything like it is and not take any responsibility for their behavior.
H. Abusive anger: By being extremely angry and raging, the Ml'er is saying as long as I am scary I can have my way.
The most common element of the categories of abuse is control. The Ml'er avoids his feelings of insecurity and powerlessness by controlling the LBS. If the Ml'er does not have anyone to have power over, they don't have any power. They often connect with someone who is easier to control and won't resist their need to dominate. It is in debate if a Ml'er does these behaviors intentionally. I think it can vary with the Ml'er. Some do not seem to have awareness that they are hurting others. Most Ml'ers seem to be totally out of character and are labeled "aliens" by their standers. The thing that is very confusing to the stander is that often ML'ers can control these behaviors in front of others, but seem to let loose when alone with the stander.
Depression sign #18: ML'ERS MAY ABUSE ALCOHOL AND DRUGS
Another escape from reality is the use/abuse of alcohol and drugs. Those who never used on a regular basis may start experimenting with various substances. Those who routinely used may increase their usage of alcohol or drugs or both.
Substance abuse may deepen the ML'ers depression only causing them more pain and problems. Misery loves company and many times the ML'er will choose to associate with people who also resort to alcohol and drug abuse.
Depression sign #19: ML'ERS CAN EXPERIENCE SEXUAL DYSFUNCTION
Hormonal changes cause the physical symptoms of menopause in woman (irregular periods, decreased fertility, etc...). Hormonal changes cause the physical symptoms of andropause in men (decrease bone density, hair loss, etc...). Hormonal changes in both men and woman can cause emotional problems such as depression.
Most people know that woman go through menopause. Men can go through what is called andropause - a male menopause so to speak. Andropause is characterized by a loss of testosterone. This affects some men more than others. Woman experience a loss of estrogen. This affects some woman more than others. Both males and females experience similar symptoms during this time, irritability, loss of libido in women and erection problems in men, sleep disturbances, mood swings, and depression. Mid life crisis involves ones hormonal, psychological, interpersonal, social, sexual and spiritual components.
Depression sign #20: SOME MLERS EXHIBIT JEALOUSY
Ml'ers exhibit jealousy as a method of control. Many have fears of abandonment and loss. ML'ers show jealousy because of their feelings of emptiness. Deep down they are terrified of losing their loved ones but feel it may be inevitable. ML'ers sense that they will no longer feel needy if they can only control their LBS.
Depression sign #21: ML'ERS ARE FULL OF SELF-PITY
Ml'ers really hate themselves. They may or may not show this to their LBS, but that is what is brewing underneath all their horrible behavior. Often, childhood issues come to the surface and feelings of rejection and abandonment prevail. Because of their self-hate and low self esteem, they have difficulty accepting that their LBS cares for them. Some ML'ers will express this by statements such as, "You cannot love me like I need to be loved", "Why don't you date other people", "the kids would be better off with a different father", “Why don’t you hate me”, etc..... They are so involved with their pity party that nothing else matters to them.
Depression Sign #22: ML'ERS DON'T WANT ANY RESPONSIBILITY
Before their crisis, most Ml'ers were very responsible, productive members of their home and work environment. Not anymore. Life is a party and they want to have fun. Many Ml'ers lose their jobs, stop working around the house, ignore their children, don't pay their bills, spend foolishly, etc... the list goes on and on. They actually feel that this is the time for them to get everything THEY want out of life and other people need to take care of THEIR responsibilities. Chemical imbalances cause them to lose focus and control of themselves. The LBS is forced to take on all the ML'ers responsibilities as well as their own. This is usually not acknowledged by the Ml'er or appreciated. In fact, they will use this as an opportunity to criticize or cut down the LBS' way of handling things. This gives them the opportunity to disconnect even more from the LBS and their family. It is only when their world starts falling apart do they realize how irresponsible they have been in their work and home environment. Guilty feelings will then set in and eventually processed by the Ml'er in later stages.
Depression sign #23: ML'ERS ARE VERY SENSITIVE TO CRITICISM
Ml'ers have this intense need to be respected and admired. They are overly sensitive to any suggestions, comments, helpful remarks and criticisms. Any comments even remotely critical are perceived as attacks on their already low self-esteem. Ml'ers will take these "perceived attacks" and deflect them by finding fault in their LBS. Usually these acts of finding fault are either non-existent or exaggerated remarks or incidents.
Depression sign #24: ML'ERS USE PROJECTION AS A DEFENSE MECHANISM
Psychological projection is a defense mechanism in which one attributes one's own unacceptable or unwanted thoughts or/and actions to others. Projection reduces anxiety by allowing the expression of the unwanted subconscious impulses/desires without letting the conscious mind recognize them.
Depression sign #25: ML'ERS CREATE CONFLICT/ARGUMENTS WITH LOVED ONES
Ml'ers create conflict/arguments with their LBS in order to have them respond in a NEGATIVE way. When the LBS responds in a negative way, i.e. anger, crying, panic, criticism, rejection, etc.... this enables the Ml'er to attach blame to LBS' normal defensive reactions. This also enables the Ml'er to justify their horrible behavior to themselves and others. For example, my ex started an argument with me one day on the way back from the grocery store. He said I should of been spending time with him alone instead of shopping for food for the kids. I told him how silly he was behaving and became angry. By the time we got home, he was so upset at my "insensitivity to his needs" that he left the house for that day and spent his time with the other woman.
Not only was this a way for him to make me look bad, but it was also a way for him to justify being with his "soulmate".
Depression sign #26: ML'ERS ARE IN DENIAL
Along with projection, DENIAL is another major defense mechanism that mid-lifers use. Denial is the psychological process by which human beings protect themselves from things which threaten them by blocking knowledge of those things from their awareness. It is a defense that distorts reality; it keeps us from feeling the pain and uncomfortable truth about things we do not want to face. If we cannot feel or see the consequences of our actions, then everything is fine and we can continue to live without making any changes.
When Ml'ers are feeling badly, they will often associate these painful feelings with their LBS instead of taking responsibility for their own actions. Getting rid of their LBS seems to be for them the only way of escape. Denial can become increasingly worse as the Ml'er continues on his journey. Their list of bad behavior and deeds becomes so long that there is no better place to be than the world of denial. The Ml'er becomes unrecognizable to their loved ones until various circumstances force the ml'er to examine the hell they have created. These circumstances may involve excessive debt, unwanted pregnancy, loss of job, fractured family, divorce, drug and alcohol abuse, loss of friends, homelessness, etc…
Depression sign #27: ML'ERS BECOME VERY COMPETITIVE WITH LOVED ONES
When a spouse is in mid life crisis, their LBS as well as other close family members become the enemy. Ml'ers are constantly comparing their loved ones with themselves. Many times they fall short and this leads to further insecurity and self-doubt. During their journey, they are out to prove that they are important and admired and become very competitive. They will withhold compliments/achievements toward important family members at this time. They begin to choose people in their lives that will make them feel good about themselves. Usually this means choosing people who are less accomplished and lower in character in order to make themselves feel better about themselves.
Depression sign #28: ML'ERS HAVE MAJOR MOOD SWINGS
This is a very obvious sign of depression but worth writing about. Family members who witness this depression sign often feel like they are going insane. The frequency of the mood swings with mid-lifers varies. Some experience rapid cycling, others much slower. Loved ones describe their mid-lifers as having Dr. Jekyl/Mr. Hyde personalities. They begin to feel like they are walking on egg-shells. The littlest thing can set the mid-lifer into a rage or period of depression. Some family members may feel their mid-lifer is on drugs. These mood swings may or may not affect the work environment. Some mid-lifers are better at controlling what they let others see. This therefore leaves the LBS feeling responsible for the mood swings and their world begins to fill with self-doubt.
Depression sign #29: ML'ERS ARE MANIPULATIVE
People become manipulative when they are afraid of losing something of value to them. This can range from fear of losing an actual person or losing a perception that someone has of them. Mid-lifers manipulate loved ones in believing their reality, which at times can be very distorted due to chemical imbalances in the brain, guilt, shame, denial, self-centeredness, etc... Examples of mid-lifers being manipulative can involve twisting words around, creating confusion, drama, rewriting of history, lying, etc... Unfortunately the mid-lifers use of manipulation usually ends up pushing people away from them.
Depression sign #30: ML'ERS HAVE WITHDRAWING/ABANDONING BEHAVIORS
Another very painful characteristic of the mid life journey is when they abandon/withdraw from loved ones. This varies with each mid-lifer changing with each stage. It can range from emotionally withdrawing to physically abandoning their entire family. Many are simply just imitating a part of their childhood when they experienced some form of abandonment or abuse. Many use it as a form of control and power. To some, it is easier to run than face their demons, so they hide to get away from things and people that remind them of their pain or failures. Regardless of the reason, these behaviors leave loved ones in shock and confusion. Mid-lifers are oblivious to the pain and suffering they cause. Many LBS' lose their homes, self-esteem, children, etc... due to the abandonment.
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WOW.
Everything except the drinking and drugs..but this is HIS PERSONALITY and always has BEEN.
So no I am NOT ( or was not) dealing with an MLcer. The mid-life thing only magnified this personality disorder.
So my only connection to all of this is the extreme behavior.
Thanks for this LBS very eye-opening.
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MLCers act as people with personality disorders because they use immature defense mechanisms. Point is that MLCers was not like that before they hit MLC. They become as people with PD when they sink into MLC.
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WOW they have a lot more of a shock than what happened to me..especially if someone was treating them really well or even ACTED happy.
I guess I don't know what that's like. Thank you Albatross for posting this. I'm glad I took the time to read it. Big light bulb moment for me.
I made the comment to this "creature" I was dealing with that what he tried to do with everything that went on was kill me I said;
"Nice try...you didn't kill me..I'm back" and he giggled about it.
So he tried a second time and still didn't succeed.
With a Narcissist you have a few ways of dealing with them. One was to tolerate the behavior. And the second one was to find out what they fear. Which I have done.
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Ever wondered why MLCers don't hv empathy?
As a clinical symptom in depression, anhedonia makes one have no empathy.
MLCers have no empathy for the LBS because MLCers suffer from Anhedonia.
Normally personality disorders show up in mid-late adolescence or early 20s...but all
MLCers,during the crisis, suffer from symptoms of personality disorders.
An MLCer can have symptoms ranging from Bipolar, to Borderline, to schizoid.
Once they get through the tunnel these behaviours should slowly dissappear.
Was wondering if this is caused because of the chemical imbalance in the brain
and toward the end of the process the brain corrects the imbalance as the MLCer begins to think clearly?
Maybe Albatross can throw some light on this.
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Ever wondered why MLCers don't hv empathy?
As a clinical symptom in depression, anhedonia makes one have no empathy.
MLCers have no empathy for the LBS because MLCers suffer from Anhedonia.
Normally personality disorders show up in mid-late adolescence or early 20s...but all
MLCers,during the crisis, suffer from symptoms of personality disorders.
An MLCer can have symptoms ranging from Bipolar, to Borderline, to schizoid.
Once they get through the tunnel these behaviours should slowly dissappear.
Was wondering if this is caused because of the chemical imbalance in the brain
and toward the end of the process the brain corrects the imbalance as the MLCer begins to think clearly?
Maybe Albatross can throw some light on this.
You are right what You wrote there. Now about never ending discussion about chemical diss balance in the brain and depression. Point is what cause chemical diss balance ? What is older chicken or egg ? IMHO, chemical dissballance is result of depression and it is drag force which speed up depression, means someone who fall into depression gradually get as result and drag force for diving even more into depression. Means we are who actually trigger depression. MLCers have LONG chronicall depression and they sink in it gradually. Their brains then suffer long therm chemical dissballance. As result is very deep depression, MLC depression have alter name BIG DEPRESSION OF MIDDLIFE. It is mother of all depressions.
So, IMHO cause of depression is in MLCers, I am very up to Jung psychology.
And now answer to Your question. Yes, chemical dissballance diminish in time how MLcer feel better as result and then become drag force which help pulling someone out of depression.
I was in deep depression (first time in my life in depression) in February and cause of depression was external, clash with wife. I fall apart. Because cause of my depression was external antidepressants help me a lot as drag force which pull me up out of depression.
So reason why antidepressants does not work for MLCers is that they still have internal problem and antidepressants only prolongue their misery...
Anyway I am keen that antidepressants can help MLCer when he/she hit liminality, rebirth point when they alone solve inner problems and start to pull out from depression, but wont help them in REPLAY, only can make REPLAY longer.
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Thanks Albatross
Its hard to know who hurts more ..the LBS or the MLCer.
Let's face it depression of this magnitude must need treatment at some stage
even if it is at liminality.
As LBS we understand and can be sympathetic to the MLCer without excusing it.
U said u created for your W a calm home environment for recovery but since she was at home it may have been easier... at what stage shud an LBS attempt this bc in the beginning everything u do or say falls on deaf ears.
What advise wud u give to an LBS whole MlCer lives with the alienator and there is no contact.....how can one create a calming effect under these circumstances?
At 4 mths into seperation H said that when we both calm down we shud talk but
we are now almost 10 mths into it and nothing has happened.In fact I am in NC for myself... he interprets it as manipulation.
A mth before H left he said he was ashamed at what he was doing but
after he left he said it is only 4 mths when i asked what he plans to do .So they are aware it
is going to take a long time...how do they know considering the depression they have?
Also u talked about ego State before and during MLC.
Is the splitting of the persona /shadow and ego the stage at which they begin to realise what they have done and begin to show remorse and reverting to the old person gradually?
Did u see this with ur W and what brought about this?....Was it the calm atmosphere u created or did she figure it out herself and at what stage?
Verstuurd vanaf mijn iPad
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In fact I am in NC for myself... he interprets it as manipulation.
Of course he does; he wants ATTENTION !!
They don't realize we do it FOR OUR OWN PROTECTION!
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"""""They regress, believe me, I am the witness. It took so long time that she get back in present ego state which is closer of her ego before MLC. I can tell You more details about it, if You are interested.""""on replay thread.
Albatross I wud like to know more about ego state before,during and after MLC.Sounds interesting.
Also I have a few questions in my previous post .Wud be grateful if u cud shed some light on them.
Thanks
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wow This was so insightful for me. i hadn't read this before. So accurate in the way their depression plays out. The hormonal issue however, I don't get in my car because my MLcer is only 38. Andropause shouldn't be an issue, should it?
As a practitioner of Chinese medicine we learn that andropause is related to someone in their 50's or so? Anyway, everything else seems relevant.
So how do we as LBS respond to this depression. What is the best way to communicate with this disorder? Is there anything that we can do to help them in this painful process?
Thanks Albatross for sharing this with us. It was very useful to me. Knowledge is power....personal power Sw :)
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So how do we as LBS respond to this depression. What is the best way to communicate with this disorder? Is there anything that we can do to help them in this painful process?
Stay away from them..give them their space they will work this out.
It may not be the results WE want or expect but since they feel we are the cause of it we cannot help them.
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It may not be the results WE want or expect but since they feel we are the cause of it we cannot help them.
They haven't a clue what happening to them, so they can't help self, and nobody then can't help them because they cannot tell to someone what really bothering them. It is like dog chasing own tail. So, nobody can help them. They are ALONE in that journey. Because all of that MLC take so long time.
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We all have our shadow but since mlcers do not like what they see in their shadow they need to project it onto someone as their personas have worn a mask all along and are
not able to sort these issues in their regressed state....that's the way i understand it.The persona they show does not match the shadow and therefore they need to become balanced through transition.
The article below on Marriage As A Psychological Relationship that Carl Jung wrote in 1925, made me think about my own situation......on fatal compulsion and a lack of free choice......wud like to share it ..... any comments / views?
Dr Bren looks at ..The Development of Personality (1954/1991), Volume 17 of The Collected Works of C.G. Jung, ...it includes an essay entitled “Marriage as a Psychological Relationship” that Carl Jung wrote in 1925 and was translated into English in 1926. Jung made a clear distinction about what he meant by “psychological.”
Whenever we speak of a “psychological relationship” we presuppose on that is conscious, for there is no such thing as a psychological relationship between two people who are in a state of unconsciousness. From the psychological point of view they would be wholly without relationship. From any other point of view, the physiological for example, they could be regarded as related, but one could not call their relationship psychological. It must be admitted that though such total unconsciousness as I have assumed does not occur, there is nevertheless a not inconsiderable degree of partial unconsciousness, and the psychological relationship is limited in the degree to which that unconsciousness exists. (p. 189, [CW 17, ¶ 325])
In this passage Jung equated “psychological” with conscious, and in particular, conscious about one’s self and their partner. He suggested that to the extent the couple is unconscious of their own and their partner’s psychology the “psychological relationship” is limited and in a state of primitive identity with others which he calls “a complete absence of relationship” (p. 190, [CW 17, ¶ 326]).
Next Jung directly called out the fool who things he is done, but has only just begun, suggesting that these relationships are formed through forces that are mostly unconscious which he likened to a fatal compulsion and a lack of free choice.
Subjectively, of course, he thinks himself very conscious and knowing, for we constantly overestimate the existing content of consciousness, and it is a great surprising discovery when we find that what we had supposed to be the final peak is nothing but the first step in a very long climb. The greater the area of unconsciousness, the less is marriage a matter of free choice, as is shown subjectively in the fatal compulsion one feels so acutely when one is in love. The compulsion can exist even when one is not in love, though in less agreeable form. (p. 190, [CW 17, ¶ 327])
Jung stressed, “it is the strength of the bond to the parents that unconsciously influences the choice of husband or wife, either positively or negatively” (p. 191, [CW 17, ¶ 328]). He went on to state that, “the children are driven unconsciously in a direction that is intended to compensate for everything that was left unfulfilled in the lives of their parents (p. 191, [CW 17, ¶ 328]). With this in mind Jung proposed, “one must know first of all the cause of the unconscious tie to the parents, and under what conditions it forcibly modifies, or even prevents, the conscious choice (p. 191, [CW 17, ¶ 328]). Of course, this is no small task yet Jung says no more in this essay about bringing these unconscious motives to consciousness. Perhaps he felt Freud’s psychoanalysis (They were still friends in 1910.) sufficiently addressed how to reveal these parental unconscious ties.
Jung further defined the unconscious “conventional marriage” as a “purely instinctive choice” and “an instrument for maintaining the species” (p. 192, [CW 17, ¶ 328]). Here he separates the biological purpose of marriage from the psychological purpose of marriage, indicating the former is collective and impersonal.
In second half of life the marriage begins to breakdown moving from passion and duty to an intolerable burden, “a vampire that battens on the life of its creator” (p. 193, [CW 17, ¶ 331a]). This is an important metaphor worth amplifying. A vampire is the living dead, casting no shadow because it cannot live in the light. A vampire feeds on the blood of the living which Jung cast as its creator implying the conflict between consciousness and the unconsciousness. “This disunity with oneself begets discontent, and since one is not conscious of the real state of things one generally projects the reason for it upon one’s partner. A critical atmosphere thus develops, the necessary prelude to conscious realization” (p. 194, [CW 17, ¶ 331b]).
This might be a good place to introject that Jung was entering midlife when he wrote this essay and a year or so earlier had a mysterious relationship with a younger woman/patient that was the talk of the little town of Zurich (Bair, 2003).
The essay moves into a discourse about a typical marriage between the simple-minded, the contained, the anima and the mind of complexity, the container, the animus alluding to women and men, respectively. I would be remiss in my feminism to not mention the arrogant chauvinism in Jung’s subsequent discourse, but at this point I believe most of us can set aside his outdated cultural views without discounting the importance of his contribution.
His point is that the contained usually is better adapted to the marriage, wholly dependent yet swallowed up by the more complex partner. While the container has one foot in and one foot out of the marriage due to the fact that a large part of her personality is left unseen by the simple-minded. Jung posited the simple-minded partner is “grounded on a positive relationship to the parents” and the more complex partner is “hindered by a deep-seated unconscious tie the parents” (p. 194, [CW 17, ¶ 331b]) and “burdened with hereditary traits that are sometimes very difficult to reconcile” (p. 194, [CW 17, ¶ 331c]). About the container, the complex partner Jung wrote,
These people, having a certain tendency to dissociation, generally have the capacity to split off irreconcilable traits of character for considerable periods, thus passing themselves off as much simpler that they are; or it may happen that their many-sidedness, their very versatility, lends them a peculiar charm. Their partners can easily lose themselves in such a labyrinthine nature, finding in it such an a abundance of possible experiences that their personal interests are completely absorbed, sometimes in a not very agreeable way, since their sole occupation then consists in tracking the other through all the twists and turns of his character. (pp. 194-5, [CW 17, ¶ 331c]).
In this passage Jung recognizes the impact the container’s complexity has on the contained leading to a crack in the idealized security of the contained. The contained is then forced to see the personality she has relied on is not dependable causing her to turn inward and find security there. The container longs for unity and undividedness causing him to turn inward upon realizing he cannot find it outside of himself.
Jung infers that one cause of infidelity in marriage is this longing for unity and undividedness suggesting, “a dissociation is not healed by being split off, but by more complete disintegration” (p. 197, [CW 17, ¶ 334]). As one’s outer world becomes more and more disintegrated, “all the powers that strive for unity, all healthy desire for selfhood, will resist the disintegration, and in this way he will become conscious of the possibility of an inner integration” (p. 197, [CW 17, ¶ 334]). I cannot help viewing these passages as a pale explanation of his own infidelity. As such, it is difficult to separate Jung’s projections from his psychological wisdom in several passages within this essay.
The balance of the essay moves away from the source of marital strife as unconscious ties to the parents into a discussion of the archetypes of anima and animus with no bridge connecting these two sources.
Next the essay moves into a short explanation of the psychological stages of development. He posited that, “psychic life is a development that can easily be arrested on the lowest levels” (p. 201, [CW 17, ¶ 343]); and that few people “fall into deeper disharmony with themselves” (p. 201, [CW 17, ¶ 343]), unless that is, social security causes psychological insecurity leading first to neuroses and possibly to separation, divorce or another marital disorder.
The essay ends with the marriage in shambles, man reaching beyond his limits “becoming a fool and a menace” (p. 201, [CW 17, ¶ 344]) and nature [psyche] is praised as being aristocratic and esoteric. This is not Jung’s best writing since at this point in his life he had not achieved enough distance from his own marital strife.
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EVERYONE HAS A DARK SIDE. The problem is BALANCE! When things like this happen the shadow appears and takes over.
Not true in my case but whatever!
But if you're spouse was loving and supportive before all of this happened? Whatever the cause or explanation is; they've lost thier way.
And they simply cannot face the truth of who they are for REAL. (true in my case)
OR they have never played on the dark side much and think they've missed something. ..Not enough girlfriends in thier lives or sex or money or toys or whatever! ( again true in my case) JUST DISCONTENT!!
This is their ME TIME.
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Latching on:)
31
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Anima-Animus ...midlife transition
interesting 2 video's below
According to Jung, one must get in touch with the Shadow and Anima/Animus before one can truly get in touch with the Self.
In Jungian terms, 'finding one's soul' or Self involves confronting the unconscious, and integrating its elements into consciousness.
Jung conceptualised the stages of the midlife transition as :
1) the breakdown of the persona (or identity);
2) the release of the shadow consisting of those aspects of ourselves which are repressed, denied, rejected; The shadow consists of the parts of ourselves that we usually find unacceptable. These are things we often are unconscious of but project on to others.
And
3) facing the contra-sexual other: the anima, or inner 'feminine' aspect of a man, and the animus, or inner 'masculine' aspect of a woman.
Animus-Anima interesting 2 video's:
http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=ZN47s0mPfRU&feature=plpp Animus-Anima in Jungian psychology
http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=PjRQbJPULx4. Jung - Anima Projection
The mid-life transition or crisis can also be approached using a Myers-Briggs personality model stemming from the works of Carl Jung.
The stages are as follows:
1. Accommodation - presenting ourselves as different people in different situations, called "personae"
2. Separation - taking off the masks or personae we wear in different situations and assessing who we are under the masks; rejecting your personae, even if only temporarily, and feeling largely uncertain about who you are
3. Reintegration - feeling more certain of who you are and adopting more appropriate personae
4. Individuation - recognizing and integrating the conflicts that exist within us, and achieving a balance between them
Small nagging doubts may appear, perhaps followed by a series of dramatic, apparently irrational events leading up to great change. During it all, men and women ask themselves questions such as: Is this all there is? Am I a failure?
Jung wrote: “Not a few of those who are driven into the conflict of opposites jettison everything that had previously seemed to them good and worth striving for; they try to live in complete opposition to their former ego… The snag about a radical conversion into one’s opposite is that one’s former life suffers repression and thus produces just as unbalanced a state as existed before…”
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Disappointment in love or marriage precipitates a neurosis with symptoms of depression and conflict.
Explained below.....
Depression.
A psychological state characterized by lack of energy.
Energy not available to consciousness does not simply vanish. It regresses and stirs up
unconscious contents (fantasies, memories, wishes, etc.) that for the sake of psychological
health need to be brought to light and examined.
Jung's view was that an outbreak of neurosis is purposeful, an opportunity to become
conscious of who we are as opposed to who we think we are. By working through the
symptoms that invariably accompany neurosis - anxiety, fear, depression, guilt and particularly
conflict-we become aware of our limitations and discover our true strengths.
Neurosis is really an attempt at self-cure.
It is an attempt of the self-regulating psychic system to restore the balance, in no way different
from the function of dreams-only rather more forceful and drastic.
Neuroses, like all illnesses, are symptoms of maladjustment. Be-cause of weakness or defect,
wrong education, bad experiences, an unsuitable attitude, etc.-one shrinks from the difficulties
which life brings and thus finds oneself back in the world of the infant.
The unconscious compensates this regression .In this way a change of attitude is brought
about which bridges the dissociation between man as he is and man as he ought to be.
The best examples of such regressions are found in hysterical cases where a disappointment in
love or marriage has precipitated a neurosis.
The realization of the shadow is inhibited by the persona. To the degree that we identify
with a bright persona, the shadow is correspondingly dark. Thus shadow and persona stand
in a compensatory relationship, and the conflict between them is invariably present in an
outbreak of neurosis. The characteristic depression at such times indicates the need to realize
that one is not all one pretends or wishes to be.
What then determines why one person becomes neurotic while another, in similar circumstances,
does not? Jung's answer is that the individual psyche knows both its limits and its potential.
If the former are being exceeded, or the latter not realized, a breakdown occurs.
The psyche itself acts to correct the situation.
Conflict.
A state of indecision, accompanied by inner tension.
Conflict only becomes neurotic when it interferes with the normal functioning of consciousness.
Jung's basic hypothesis in working with neurotic conflict was that separate personalities in
oneself-complexes-were involved. As long as these are not made conscious they are acted out
externally, through projection. Conflicts with other people are thus essentially externalizations
of an unconscious conflict within oneself.
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How does one spot a midlife crisis vs. narcissist or psychopathology?
Some more info collected on the above topic.
Anyone experiencing a midlife crisis becomes 'narcissistic' and unhealthily so. This does not mean they have a personality disorder. Individuals with BPD need to be understood and treated with compassion.
But they are in need of psychological help. There is a tendency to be drawn to them;
they give off a lot of energy and can be very charismatic, but there is a price to be paid for being
involved: Perpetual arguments, dramas, makeups and breakups, suicidal gestures and an
almost exquisite sensitivity to rejection whether real or imagined.
Some people work through whatever issues they have that delayed maturation, reduced the 'meaning' of life, inhibited their passion, caused them to question where their lives were headed. Focusing on childhood may resolve issues that are problematic as adults. However, there are distinctly different behaviors in a midlife narcissist than there are with people who 'transition' and work through their crisis. These two signs suggest a narcissistic person may not be able to work through unhealthy narcissism (and may in fact, be NPD):
1-The inability to sustain commitment
2-Extreme reactions to failure, criticism or defeat
During the midlife crisis, people with pathological traits will be excessively aggressive, extraordinarily blaming and critical, mendacious beyond belief, with contempt and disdain for "whoever is the closest at the time." That usually means their partner or spouse.
I think it's really important to pay attention to how far that person will go to HURT their partner and/or family members. The degree of hate is indicative of pathology and should never be minimized as 'normal.'
“People with healthy levels of narcissism are also able to step outside their own perspective long enough to assess how their behavior may be affecting others around them. This ability to avoid becoming stuck in narcissistic mode, and to consider the impact of your actions on the feelings of others, is one of the key distinctions between healthy and extreme levels of narcissism.”
Most people who are hurt by narcissists based their perceptions of unhealthy narcissism on an inadequate knowledge of personality disorders. The pathological Narcissistic Personality Disorder is often mistaken for its look-alike cousin: A Narcissistic Personality
The Discouraged Borderline in many ways can look very much like an individual with Dependent Personality Disorder, or what is commonly known in today's jargon as codependent. They tend to be clingy, go along with the crowd, and walk around feeling somber and somewhat dejected. Deep inside however, there are often angry and disappointed with the actions of those around them. Scratch the surface, and that anger could explode, but they are much more likely to do harm to themselves by self-mutilating or even suicide.
The Impulsive Borderline seems to be a first cousin to the Histrionic Personality Disorder. These individuals tend to be flirtatious, captivating, elusive and superficial. They are highly energetic and seek out thrill after thrill. They are easily bored and seem to have it never ending appetite for attention and excitement. As their name implies, they will often act without thinking, getting themselves into all sorts of trouble. Such individuals can often be very charismatic and it's easy to get caught in their spell. Beware! You can be the moth drawn to their flame.
The third subtype is what is called the Petulant Borderline. They are described as being "unpredictable, irritable, impatient, and complaining" as well as "defiant, disgruntled, stubborn, pessimistic and resentful". They are torn between relying upon people and at the same time keeping their distance for fear of disappointment.
They vacillate between feelings of unworthiness and anger. This anger can be quite explosive. Better not get in their line of fire.
Finally, there is the Self-Destructive Borderline. This type is marked by his constant sense of
bitterness which they turn inward. They will often engage in self-destructive behaviors whether
it is conscious orunconscious. Their levels of self-hatred can often reach monumental proportions
leading them into all types of self-destructive behaviors, ranging from poor healthcare to reckless
driving to performing humiliating sexual acts.
These people are not your run-of-the-mill "toxic coworker". Though they might often seem okay
on the surface, these are deeply troubled individuals in need of help.
Even the most experienced of therapists can be challenged by them.
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Thanks for sharing this.The more I understand the psychology, the better.
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You're welcome xyzcf
Like u and others on the forum ,I am also keen to know more and understand the psychology better......Is it a personality disorder or midlife crisis? Or could it even be both–someone with a personality disorder who is having an MLC?
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Is it common that people in a midlife crisis enter relationships with BPDs?
I think it's probably more that being emotionally vulnerable makes one susceptible to engaging in
an unhealthy relationship with a pwBPD(OW), who steps in to fill the void and to bandage over the hurt.
Certain aspects or common denominators are present in males who attach to Borderlines.
Generally, these are People Pleaser types, who have rescuing or fixing compulsions, self-esteem difficulties from childhood, intimacy issues, engulfment concerns, poor self-image, dysthymia (chronic/long-standing mild to moderate depression), etc. Foundational problems of this kind leave men vulnerable to being seduced and manipulated by these women. You may be extremely accomplished and successful--but the Borderline will methodically learn what's underneath those props, and use your most intimate secrets and self-doubts against you.
Every man's ego takes a jab when a woman leaves--but a Borderline leaves you feeling guilty, ashamed, castrated, unlovable, emasculated, worthless, etc. You start believing that if she returns, you'll be able to get rid of these horrible sensations, and feel okay again.
You might think of her like a drug you can’t live without, because you've felt alive and buoyant when she was attentive, available and loving, and tortured and empty when she was indifferent, detached or cruel.
There's always a childhood template that sets up our attraction to someone personality disordered. Perhaps your Borderline has traits similar to mother or father, and you're familiar with the relationship dynamics you've struggled with in this attachment (which keeps it exciting, despite all the pain).
You'll keep wanting to blame yourself for this relationship faltering, but this is directly tied to experiences in childhood, which left you with self-esteem wounds. A young child can't make sense of why he isn't getting enough love, affection or support from a parent, and he doesn't even know how to ask for it! He'll try to find reasons for this lack of attention in his head--but the only rationale he can come up with is, it must be his fault; "I must not be good enough, smart enough, cute enough, lovable," etc. You've carried these self-worth injuries into your adult relationships, and now they're alive again.
NOTE:
BPD usually develops during adolescence or early adulthood.
In addition to sexual trauma being a factor in the development of the disorder, parental neglect and unstable family relationships has been shown to contribute to an individual’s risk for developing this disorder. Other studies suggest BPD may also have a genetic component; it is thought that individuals may inherit his or her temperament along with specific personality traits, particularly impulsiveness and aggression.
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Yep, borderlines are true nexuses. My mother is borderline and I saw BD traits in my wife when she hits MLC.
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Yes Albatross
All MLcers show traits of BD but OW in my case is definitely Boderline...Affair Down
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The MLcer did not choose the journey. It chose him. He would avoid it if he could. But something in the MLCer demands the journey and he is obliged to live it out whether he likes it or not.He is gripped by an inner imperative that must be allowed to run its course.
Psychopathology plays a role for the different outcomes of midlife crisis.
Borderline patients are not as capable as neurotic ones to deal with limitedness or death.The most significant factor of psychopathology is the extent of pathological narcissism
because narcissists do not age well.
Midlife is not a chronological problem but a psychic response to the poignant and essentially
unconsciuos perception of the aging of our body.
A key shift that happens in midlife is that the person must be able to enjoy the success of his
children and younger colleagues.Often the person who has pathological narcissism is extremely
envious and he cannot appreciate the success of the younger person.
So such individuals age in a bitter way knowing that they can't recapture their youth.
There is also a sense of dissatisfaction with one's work, that one is going through the
motions without feeling enthusiasm for what one is doing.
Narcissists and Boderline patients have not developed a strong ego ideal but mostly an ideal ego
as the most common way of feeling and behaving with themselves.
In one case,something put in the future and in the other a feeling that you need something now.
In the first you have to acknowledge your limits and in the second you are always denying
your limits.The ideal ego denies time and releases in the individual a striving to reïncarnatie
himself seeking the fountain of youth.The striving after an impossible aim can only prepare for a
depressed, embittered, unproductive old age
Just as the ego represents who we believe we are, the shadow represents who and
what we believe we are not. For most people it is very difficult to experience shadow
characteristics as part of ourselves, so we tend to see the characteristics in others close
to us, particularly our parent or sibling, relative, acquaintance or workmate.
A real giveaway about shadow material is that it nearly always causes irritation when experienced.
Shadow material, like everything else in the unconscious, sooner or later tends to come up
to the surface. If we permit that, we become more three-dimensional people, but if we don't
shadow material will occasionally just take over, and that can lead to embarrassment at least,
or maybe disaster. A good fictional example of shadow taking over is Robert Louis
Stevenson's story of Dr. Jekyll and Mr. Hyde.
25% of our brain is in the frontal lobe, so one quarter of our brains' activities are experienced
as beyond us. We will thus experience many of our brains' actions as if they occurred in the
outside world. This tendency to place internal events outside is called "Projection."
During adolescence we learn to use these areas of brain to differentiate between inner and
outer events, but they can be shown to malfunction in schizophrenia and paranoia, two
diseases characterised by false projections.
The MLCers suffering is the result of the conflict he not yet conscious of.
Conflicts with other people, especially one’s mate, are really externalizations of an unconscious conflict within oneself.· Perhaps the most painful conflicts of all are those involving duty or a choice between security and freedom.Life naturally involves the collision between conflicting obligations, incompatible desires. …what do I want?” This question aims to constellate the function of feeling – which evaluates what something is worth to us – since a serious conflict invariably involves a disparity between thinking and feeling.
If feeling is not conscious participant in the conflict, it needs to be introduced. The same may be said for thinking. If a person can hold the tension between the conflicting opposites, then eventually something will happen in the psyche to effectively resolve the conflict. · This process requires patience and strong ego, otherwise the tension cannot be held and a decision will be made out of despera-tension, just to escape the tension.
During MLC they try to escape reality and their true self ….a breakdown of the personality has a purpose: to force a person onto a new level of awareness. In the struggle to understand yourself, there is no substitute for prolonged self-reflection.
Wholeness is only achieved through self-examination, and unless there are acknowledged problems there is nothing to examine.
It is foolish to imagine we can change the person who seems to be the cause of our heartache. But we can change ourselves and our reactions.…the major battles in relationships happen because the man projects his anima onto the woman and the woman projects her animus onto the man.
Magnetic resonance imaging MRI..has shown that there are two small pieces of frontal
cortex that can be used to discriminate between internal and external events.
In Jung's view, because a person's conscious mind is identified with their own gender, their
unconscious will be experienced as being of the opposite sex
The most intense conflicts, if overcome, leave behind a sense of security and calm which is not easily disturbed, or else a brokenness that can hardly be healed.
The MLCer has to suffer until he finds, or there wells up in him, an attitude that is better adapted to who he is and life as he finds it. For this he needs time.
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Psychopathology plays a role for the different outcomes of midlife crisis.
Borderline patients are not as capable as neurotic ones to deal with limitedness or death.The most significant factor of psychopathology is the extent of pathological narcissism
because narcissists do not age well.
Not sure of the extent of narcissism wrt to H but he certainly finds
it difficult to age gracefully..... I guess like most MLCers?
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An older man whose emotional life has remained at an adolescent level is usually coupled with too great a dependence on the mother. They yearn for independence, they long for freedom, but they are powerless to pull it off. Many midlife crises arise from the inner need to grow out of this stage of development.A man in the process of becoming independent must detach from his origins: mother, family, society. The same is true for a woman.A positive mother complex inclines a man toward the ideal of togetherness.
The mlcer identifies with his wife, his devotion to her is so strong that he sometimes forgets that he himself is dying. At the same time he is beginning to resent her. They don’t fight or quarrel, not because they have no problems but because they don’t reveal their true feelings to each other. They cannot do so because neither can stand disharmony.If he see his wife more realistically – if he can withdraw his projection- it might save their marriage. It depends on whether or not he likes what he sees, and if she can stand what he sees whichever way he turns. The conflict is alive until he knows what’s he’s doing and why.
A midlife crisis, like an acute neurosis, is characterized by conflict, depression and anxiety.
The conflict is the price that has to be paid in order to grow up. Higher consciousness is equivalent to being all alone in the world...a man in a conflict situation has to rely on “divine comfort and mediation….an autonomous psychic happening, a hush that follows the storm, a reconciling light in the darkness…..secretly bringing order into the chaos of his soul.”
You can’t say, think or do anything that isn’t colored by your particular way of seeing the world. That’s your typology.
Jung’s typology is a way of putting these differences into some order.
It’s helpful in understanding yourself and it’s a godsend in relationship.
1.The sensation function is concerned with tangible reality. Sensation excels at details.
2. the physical senses, it establishes that something exists.....intuition doesn’t – it’s more interested in possibilities.
3.Thinking tell us what it is. The thinking function is concerned with ideas.
4. Feelings tell us what it’s worth to us, and through intuition – which Jung described as
perception via the unconscious – we have a sense of what can be done with it.
Feeling focuses on relationship.
For complete orientation all four functions should contribute equally.
“Part of the problem leading up to a breakdown is that some of the functions have been neglected, they finally demand to be recognized. That’s painful. It’s usual then to project the cause of the pain onto somebody else.Making it conscious often brings a new lease on life.
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Complexes:not all complexes are pathological:
Another way of describing the phenomenon of fragmented identity is in terms of what Jung referred
to as complexes. Examples might include a father complex, mother complex, hero complex, child complex, the anima, the animus, etc. All the complexes together Jung called the collective unconscious, or objective psyche. In the altered state, the normally unconscious complexes begin to come into conscious awareness.
Here lies the incompatibility of some of those competing identities. One may be determined to “be good” and stay away from sweets, while another pops up and devours all the candy in the jar. One identity, which he called a complex, hijacks the whole confederation of identities for a moment or two
before another takes over.
A particularly strong complex is the victim, which fights back when attempts are made to release it.
An example of this predicament is a couple who fall in love with each other at first sight, feeling an almost eerie sense of familiarity, and then gradually realize that they actually hate each other. The familiarity may come from marrying one’s unhealthy parent, re-creating a nuclear family just like the original family of origin.This relationship re-creates the internal conflict that is still waiting to be resolved.
The goal of transformation is to open ourselves up to who we really are and what our true potential is as a human being. It is about growing, learning and discovering instead of hiding, denying and keeping our heads in the sand.
In the Jungian perspective, not all complexes are pathological; only when complexes remain unconscious and operate autonomously do they create difficulties in daily life. Complexes become autonomous when they “dissociate” (split off), accumulating enough psychical energy and content to usurp the executive function of the ego and work against the overall good of the individual.
Autonomous complexes are usually the result of unconscious response to traumatic childhood experiences, or unconscious ingrained patterns left over from interrupted and unfinished developmental milestones. Traumatic experiences typically cause negative fixations or blind-spots, whereas interrupted developmental milestones cause fixation on the satisfiers of unmet needs and compulsive behavior.
The hallmark of these patterns, or autonomous complexes, is that they operate unconsciously; that is, the person is chronically dissociated. Only when the dissociation is broken and the complex is brought to consciousness can the emotional charge be assimilated and the autonomous nature of the complex be dissolved.
There are a wide variety of people who seek therapy and have a good strong adult ego within.
These clients with well-developed egos will easily find the adult within and the age will be very close to
their present age. They may have many complexes which require treatment and which are holding them hostage so to speak with self-defeating behavior. These individuals are more likely to be able to release their defenses enough eventually to surrender the ego and reach transformational healing.
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Autonomous complexes are usually the result of unconscious response to traumatic childhood experiences, or unconscious ingrained patterns left over from interrupted and unfinished developmental milestones. Traumatic experiences typically cause negative fixations or blind-spots, whereas interrupted developmental milestones cause fixation on the satisfiers of unmet needs and compulsive behavior.
My mother is borderline and I develop complex in childhood which is pretty automatic, I wouldn't say autonomous. So, borderline are irrational and very powerful when they want something and that is irrational. So, my reaction on such irrational request, demand or pressure react automatically with tantrum, means my complex is triggered, blood pressure arise, heartbeat rise, adrenalin kick in and my hands start to shake. It is like fight or flight situation. I am at first react rationally but energetic pressure, stubbornness and irrationality of my mother trigger complex. Only that works with borderline fighting back with whole possible psychic energy... Confronting irrationality is cognitive dissonance for sane and also for irrational one. There is no win situation.
I am aware now my complex, why ? Because my W acting as borderline in MLC. Nobody can trigger my complex beside my mother, then W start to trigger it in her MLC. I am now much better and my complex is triggered less times then before and intensity of it is lower. Best way is repeating situation when complex should be triggered and avoid automatic reaction. yes, I am now much, much better on it. But still I have drawback in me after confrontation. Means bad emotions. But every next time is lower and lower. Hopefully in time I will eliminate it.
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Albatross
Thanks for your comments an insight.
Individuals with well-developed egos will easily find the adult within and are more likely to be able to release their defenses enough eventually to surrender the ego and reach transformational healing.
Indeed, according to Jung, the ego, full of distortions and projections, needs to be dissolved before the Self can emerge. The Self, however, which is the totality of the psyche, includes the ego. In the process of individuation one does not destroy the ego, rather one places it in subordinate relation to the Self.
The ego is no longer the center of the personality; the Self, the mandala, which unites all opposites, is its center. What is dissolved is the inflated, concrete ego, pursuing its exclusive selfish purposes, just following its own impulses.
If “the disappearance of egohood is the only criterion of change,” how do we recognize it when we see it? What does the disappearance of egohood look like? Following are what we can expect when we make these transformational changes permanent in our lives and in our relationships.
1. Fully present in every moment, refraining from ego dissociation or distraction.
When the ego is no longer fettered by childhood wounds of abuse, shame and abandonment,
addictive behavior and dissociation are unneeded. The individual has extinguished the deep underlying fear of nonbeing, and feels existentially complete and chooses to remain present in each moment.
This allows the process of reclaiming the real self to unfold. It means that the individual has permission to feel and express the deepest emotions and thus to release the patterns of dissociation.
Here we refer to ego activity, as contrasted with ego passivity.
2. Daily choices based on intuitive knowledge, wisdom and love rather than on ego-state fear, fabrication and rationalization.
When the person’s deepest motivation changes from fear or avoiding
anticipated pain to an intuitive inner knowing, decisions will always serve the highest good of everyone involved.
3. Identify and manage positive energy and not “take on” negative energy.
As the person becomes free of internal ego preoccupation, he/she becomes aware of the impact of subtle energy and the importance of managing it, able to identify healthy and unhealthy energy patterns in every interaction in oneself, individuals as well as in groups.
4. Live in integrity.
Integrity is the natural result of full cooperation between congruent ego states, with the “private self” and the “public self” transparently one in the same: the real self. Living as an integrated person eliminates self- consciousness, anxiety about approval, defensiveness, and secrets, resulting in honesty, keeping commitments and being trustworthy.
5. Spiritual manifestation of what we say we want.
A measure of ego surrender is manifestation of the goals the individual is clear about wanting.
He/she has eliminated the causes of any inability to manifest what he/she wants: deep unconscious feelings of unworthiness, or unconscious beliefs that are contrary to what is desired (for example, the person may be asking to manifest money, but the unconscious belief may be that money is evil).
6. Acceptance of ourselves for who we are, acknowledging the continued growth we desire.
The life path of transformational work replaces the ego’s tendency tojudge by performance and conditional love, instead accepting oneself as a “work in progress.”
Ego surrendering is a continuing lifelong process, not a single event. Here we refer to internal locus of control, as contrasted with external locus of control, and the importance of playfulness.
Ego maturity is not a static state; indeed, it is one of constant dynamic growth.
7. Healing and resolving unhealthy relationships, and attracting healthy ones.
Healing any “victim consciousness” pattern imprints in the unconscious mind releases the repetition
compulsion to repeat those imprinted unhealthy relationships. Every relationship in our lives reflects the deepest belief system in our minds. The surrendering ego is full of compassion.
8. We freely express our emotions spontaneously through healthy release.
In transformational work, people learn to identify emotions through being aware of the bodily sensations that accompany a feeling, and to release these emotions in a way that doesn’t hurt another person or property, free from projecting unacknowledged or repressed feelings onto others. Here we refer to flexibility and spontaneity, as contrasted with ego rigidity.
9. We are current, not unfinished, in every interaction of every relationship.
Ending the repression of feelings or holding on to unexpressed feelings eliminates projection, and thus unfinished business in relationships. Jungian analyst Marilyn Nagy says,
“Whatever qualities we have that are unknown to us we experience first of all in projection.” Forgiveness is vitally important.Being current in relationships is also important when we are speaking of a conscious death. Unfinished business in this process will be painful. If we are unable to forgive on the Soul level, then we may karmically attract this person back into our next lifetime to replay the relationship again in another version.
10. Prepared for a conscious death, no matter how unexpectedly it may come.
Socrates said that “true philosophers make dying their profession, and to them of all men death is least alarming”. A conscious death is one that is accepted with emotional equanimity and spiritual confidence.
11. Recognize the karmic patterns being fulfilled, and stop creating new karma
(accept that “I am 100% responsible for my experience of my life”).
A powerful way to work through karmic issues is to become aware of your individual karmic lessons in this lifetime. This gives the very deepest spiritual meaning to the concept of “I am 100% responsible for what I create and experience in my life.” It is only by seeing the bigger picture of our lives that we heal and release the old karmic patterns. Once we get the lesson, we no longer need to repeat it. We then devote our energies to serving the transformation of others helping them to transmute their fear, anxiety, negativity, addictions and illness into love, power and oneness.
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Depression,chemical imbalance ,mood swings....some cases may have a personality disorder as well.
Most people with BPD also experience depression, but some experts have noted that the quality or experience of depression is different in BPD. While most people experience depression as intense sadness, people with BPD may be more likely to experience anger, shame, loneliness, or emptiness.
Depression is an brain-chemistry illness that affects both men and women.
Both depressed men and women might lose interest in sex, but again, our society leads us to believe that men will seek out sex at all costs. Therefore, when men withdraw from their wives sexually, we often think of infidelity, when in actuality, depression may be to blame......INTERESTING!
10 Ways to Help Yourself When Your Partner Is Depressed
When depression takes over your partner, you’re likely to go through an emotional waterboarding, a torture you have to escape. You may feel overwhelmed, confused, helpless to do anything. You take the brunt of the punishing anger or indifference that is all your partner can give you.
The relationship that means the most to you feels like it’s breaking fast. What can you do to keep yourself together?
Here are 10 ideas drawn from the experience of people who have had to live with depressed partners.
1.Take care of yourself as well as you can.
When depression strikes and you find yourself living with a distant stranger, it’s only natural to focus first on your partner. You’re likely shocked and confused and want to bring back the familiar loving person you know. But it’s easy to lose sight of your own needs and gradually undermine the health and inner balance you need to get through the crisis. The obstacles are huge since your partner is right there and depression is now part of your life. It’s important to keep your own life going, get out of the hothouse as often as you can and spend time on the things that most help you relax.
2.Get help.
There’s so much stress in living with depression that you should reach out for support. Perhaps you have caring friends you trust enough to confide in, or can find a support group, online communities, perhaps individual counseling, . That’s the critical first step. And keep on getting their help. You need regular support because the injury doesn’t stop until depression does.
3.It’s not your fault.
Depression is the cause of the problem, not you. Nothing you’ve done could have brought on the ugly transformation of your partner – whatever accusations they might throw at you. Nor is it possible for you to fix the illness. Depression is complicated, not fully understood, and has multiple causes. No one really knows how to cure it. You may be able to help your partner get the right kind of help, but they need to commit to the work of recovery and stay with it.
4.Learn about depression and how pervasive an impact it can have.
That will prepare you to recognize the many ways it can distort your partner’s behavior. You should realize, though, that what you’re learning is just a small part of an evolving field of research. It’s easy to jump to conclusions about exactly what’s wrong and what can be done about it. Consulting a mental health professional is a good way to get further insight into your partner’s illness.
5.Offer love and support without trying to be directive.
Suggest it might be helpful – but pushing it, demanding that he get help in certain ways or learn what you’ve been learning won’t work. Tell him you’re trying to figure out what all the changes in the relationship have been about – and will be there to help as much as you can.
6.Depression can control you both.
Be aware of the danger that you can easily be drawn into the same vortex that’s spinning your partner around.... described as Depression Fallout. Depression Is Contagious. It’s common to develop your own illness as a result of living with a depressed person. That’s why it’s so important to get all the help you can and to watch your emotional and physical state.
7.Break the Cycle.
One way to keep from being dependent on your partner’s moods is to look closely at your reactions to each of them. What are the worst, most painful moments for you – the ones that trigger your most intense feelings? What does your partner do to set you off? What is the feeling that wells up in you – anger, fear, hopelessness? And what do you do in response – meet attack for attack, hold your feelings in, leave? How do you feel about your own reactions afterward? It can help to track these reactions on paper at first to help you recognize the triggering events. That tactic could make it easier to interrupt your usual reaction, restore a sense of emotional independence and break the cycle that’s hurting you in so many ways.
8.Be tolerant of yourself.
You probably can’t stop the emotional rollercoaster all at once or persuade your partner to get help or take perfect care of yourself. Expecting too much too soon can only lead to more frustration and reduced self-esteem. You already have enough of those to deal with.
9.You Can’t Go Back.
Try to remember that the relationship you used to know may not return. It’s likely to be changed as a result of living with depression, especially if it recurs of if a single episode continues for several months, perhaps even years. It’s only natural to long for the return of the loving partner you used to know – your partner wants the same thing – but be prepared that it may not be so simple as that. You and your partner are more likely to face a gradual process of redefining how to live together.
10.They’re responsible.
Depression may be the underlying problem, but that fact doesn’t take away responsibility for destructive behavior. When feeling better they may tell you it’s depression driving them to act so hurtfully. The familiar refrain is: Don’t take it personally. But of course it’s personal. They’re constantly hitting you where it hurts. The anger, attacks, threats to leave and withdrawal are as personal as it gets in a relationship. It’s especially important, then to set boundaries. Depressed partners have know when you can’t take anymore, or they cross a line that can’t be crossed. Remind them about what’s at stake. If they go too far, they’ll lose everything.
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At BD my H said that we were not meant for each other .
As the MLC process goes on one hopes that there is a healing of the unconscious ...as the article below explains.
When an inner situation is not made conscious, it happen outside, as fate:-
“Until you heal your subconscious/unconscious, it will control your life, ‘make’ you do ‘unhelpful’ things and you, being in the ‘dark’, will think that what happens is either ‘meant to be’ or that it ‘cannot be helped’. You will also think that you know ‘truth’, when instead you are ‘blinded’ by conditioning. You will always be a slave to what others once said, did to you, or caused you to experience.”
At the onset of MLC the shadow is released and takes over ...followed by seperation of self .It is only at the end of the crisis that reintergration takes place when a person's full self is in balance.The MLcer's suffering is the result of the conflict he not yet conscious of.Confusion is the beginning of wisdom …the unexpected consequences of getting to know your shadow and including it in your life. Once this process is underway it’s difficult to stop. In fact, being crippled, unable to function in one’s usual way, is an apt metaphor for those in a midlife crisis.
Anima is an unconscious factor incarnated anew in every male child, and is responsible for the mechanism of projection.Jung distinguished four broad stages of the anima in the course of a man’s psychological development.
In the first stage, Eve, the anima is completely tied up with the mother.
In the second stage, personified in the historical figure of Helen of Troy, the anima is a collective sexual image.
The third stage of the anima is Mary. It manifests in religious feelings and a capacity for genuine friendship between the sexes.
In the four stage, as Sophia (called Wisdom in the Bible), a man’s anima functions as guide to the inner life, mediating to consciousness the contents of the unconscious. Sophia is behind the need to grapple with the grand philosophical issues, the search for meaning. She is a natural mate for the “wise old man” in the male psyche. The sexuality of a man at this stage is naturally exuberant, since it incorporates a spiritual dimension.
The transition from one stage to another seldom happens without a struggle –if it takes place at all – for the psyche not only promotes and supports growth, it is also, paradoxically, conservative and loathe to give up what it knows....people frequently turn out to be completely different from the way we thought they were.
The psychological priority in the first half of life is for a man to free himself from the anima fascination of the mother. In later life, the lack of a conscious relationship with the anima is attended by symptoms characteristic of "loss of soul."When a man is full of life he is “animated” The man with connection to his soul feels dull and lifeless. Nowadays we call this depression –prime symptom of a midlife crisis The primitive mind called it loss of soul.
Jung-
In Jungian terms, 'finding one's soul' or Self involves confronting the unconscious, and Integrating its elements into consciousness.
Jung outlined steps in the project of one’s soul journey, a process he named individuation.·
They are:
Encounter with the Shadow
Encounter with your Soul-Image
Encounter with your God-Image
Emergence of the Self
Individuation is usually described in terms of objectifying the persona, integrating the shadow, coming to terms with the syzygy and finally relating to the Self
Conway-
Men in MLC have 4 enemies according to Conway -
their marriage, their God, their Work and their body -
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PD/ MLC or Pick's disease (frontotemporal dementia)
The defining characteristics of frontotemporal dementia is personality change.
FIL has alzheimer's.... H is 55y...."frontal lobe atrophy" can occur around 40-50 in males and females and is a precursor to dementia and Alzheimers.
Accepting that a loved one has any type of dementia can be difficult. When someone we care about develops frontotemporal dementia, the shock can be particularly hard to absorb, because one of the defining characteristics of frontotemporal dementia is personality change. Spouses of many years will often feel that their husband or wife has totally changed, and they are at a loss to explain the "stranger" their spouse has become.
Frontotemporal dementia is thought to be caused by a breakdown of nerve cells in the fronto-temporal lobe of the brain. The early personality changes can help doctors differentiate between frontotemporal dementia and Alzheimer's, since memory loss is often the earliest symptom of Alzheimer's disease, while personality change is generally evident from the start of frontotemporal dementia.
Frontotemporal dementia is less familiar to most people than Alzheimer's disease.....the National Institutes of Health (NIH )site states that, "People with Pick's disease (frontotemporal dementia) tend t.o. behave the wrong way in different social settings. The changes in behavior continue to get worse and are often one of the most disturbing symptoms of the disease. Some patients will have more prominent difficulty with decision making, complex tasks, or language."
The NIH lists compulsive behaviors, inappropriate behavior, inability to function or interact in social or personal situations, abrupt mood changes, failure to recognize changes in behavior, failure to show appropriate "warmth, concern, empathy, sympathy" and many other personality changes, as symptoms.
Memory loss does figure in to frontotemporal dementia, just as it does Alzheimer's, and personality changes do occur with Alzheimer's disease, so seeing a specialist for a dementia diagnosis is generally a good idea.
"The cause of some forms of frontotemporal dementia is a genetically determined reduction of a hormone-like growth factor, progranulin....various drugs that are already on the market to treat malaria, angina pectoris or heart rhythm disturbances can increase the production of progranulin."