Midlife Crisis: Support for Left Behind Spouses
Archives => Archived Topics => Topic started by: Albatross on September 12, 2013, 11:51:12 PM
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Albatross, please be so kind to start a new REPLAY thread. Thank you.
How can I resist to a lady ? :) Old REPLAY thread (http://mlcforum.theherosspouse.com/index.php?topic=3943.0).
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Attaching, thanks for the great thread!
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Me too. This is a great thread Albatross...thank you.
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(http://24.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_md4z5vR3ES1qzyko4o1_r1_1280.jpg)
Very interesting spiral. So, how MLCer circle emotionally ? How I get it, old life represent right spiral. New life even fantasy - represent left spiral. I was witness how environment change my wife in first year of replay ! In environment which was not our flat she feel and act as left even me was present. And in the house as right.
So, I am thinking how to break circle ? Answer is always simple. We, LBS have to change ! They wont us as old ones. They wont even self as old ones. That is all about MLC ! Dramatic changes. MLCers aren't change self long, long time a go because of own rigidity, issues from childhood, no identity well defined and they now MUST changed.
So, change self ! Change lights in house, change paintings, change whole atmosphere, redesign house. I read heartblessing post in article when she said that she start to do things opposite. If MLCer is shadow of self - opposite, we also should try do opposite, not in moral values OFC and crucial things which made our personality. But if we was talkative before then try to be more listener ! If we was pursuer try to be opposite and so on. If we was over-caring, try to be less caring. And so on.
What else about spiral ? When MLCer gradually sink from left spiral to right, naturally by instinct we fallow, it is easier to be depressed then not. In time we really become depressed. On his - her nagging we reflect them back, also on anger and so on, because they start vicious down-spiral circle. So, MLCer have alibi about how bad spouse we are....
It is Marry go round down...
We have to break that circle, detaching from them, let them go, surrender, accept. You can't stop their sink in downspiraling. So, what we can ? After we cut the lose we can start to dust self and start ti climb upward. Then we become opposite for them ! Nobody NORMAL can be attracted by depressed ! So they seek someone also broken who can be their mate in misery and twisted mind.
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That is a great visual image, Albatross - thanks - this thread is so helpful. :)
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So, I am thinking how to break circle ? Answer is always simple. We, LBS have to change ! They wont us as old ones. They wont even self as old ones. That is all about MLC ! Dramatic changes. MLCers aren't change self long, long time a go because of own rigidity, issues from childhood, no identity well defined and they now MUST changed.
WE have to CHANGE FOR US NOT THEM.
If we were TOTALLY disgusted with our old selves or can see inherit character flaws then YES it's time for a change. BUT NOT TO ATTRACT THEM. WE do this so we can look at OURSELVES in the mirror.
And the work has to be honest not some "show".
It's great you changed your surroundings that may help your "inner work" but if it's all on the OUTSIDE and nothing inside it will not work! This work starts from the inside OUT!
The graph was very interesting. I can see myself and where I was and can see myself now. And I'm very happy with the progress I'm making!
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So, I am thinking how to break circle ? Answer is always simple. We, LBS have to change ! They wont us as old ones. They wont even self as old ones. That is all about MLC ! Dramatic changes. MLCers aren't change self long, long time a go because of own rigidity, issues from childhood, no identity well defined and they now MUST changed.
WE have to CHANGE FOR US NOT THEM.
If we were TOTALLY disgusted with our old selves or can see inherit character flaws then YES it's time for a change. BUT NOT TO ATTRACT THEM. WE do this so we can look at OURSELVES in the mirror.
And the work has to be honest not some "show".
It's great you changed your surroundings that may help your "inner work" but if it's all on the OUTSIDE and nothing inside it will not work! This work starts from the inside OUT!
The graph was very interesting. I can see myself and where I was and can see myself now. And I'm very happy with the progress I'm making!
I agree with You. Anyway change self in way that we have jump up where we was before sink with them slowly into depression. And of course that we have to change self, removing own issues and flaws not to impress MLCer faking changes. My wife tell me that she afraid my changes will not last ! You can't full them, neither have sense full self.
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EXACTLY the changes have to be GENUINE and withstand TIME.
And it all depends on how much damage has been done in order for it to honestly come across as some kind of change.
In my case I will NEVER believe ANY change he makes...he's always worn a mask and always will.
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EXACTLY the changes have to be GENUINE and withstand TIME.
And it all depends on how much damage has been done in order for it to honestly come across as some kind of change.
In my case I will NEVER believe ANY change he makes...he's always worn a mask and always will.
Persona in psychological therm is interface of Ego to the world. People who have shorted distance between Ego and Persona are individuals, genuine, natural, showing emotions, more alive and so on... to observer.
On some way Persona is the mask and all of us have it, but problems are with people who have bigger distance between Ego and Persona. They are artificial, less alive, less individual, less genuine to observer.
(http://25.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_m5z6w1F4n31qd94umo1_500.jpg)
MLCers do it because they MUST to...
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I like this...I find there's a little of both for me..there must be a balance.
I knew a lot a long time ago... now it's simply I was played "too rough" with and have been hurt enough. I'm not out to hurt anybody else.
I just want to heal- have some fun- and have my "peace of mind"
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I think I started out EARLY on in this changing for H . But all of the true changes I have made have been for me and no other reason. Change to keep myself from spiraling down into his depression, you know keep my sanity!! But as I am nearer to the end of the tunnel than the front of the tunnel (not out yet!) I see that the changes I have made are beneficial to both of us but were made for me!! It makes me feel good to recognize that! Glad I read this discussion :)
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I finally find out what's mean sentence which my wife wrote several time on her blog. "Is it end approaching me ?"
Some day she said that our dog eat much then before. I said, maybe because he feel that end coming to him ? She said: "So he wanna do whatever he like before end life ?
One of causes my wife MLC is obviously aging. She wanna be young again, live life again but from scratch. REPLAY foundation, that cause have nothing with her previous life, neither spouse, marriage. In any circumstance other life, other spouse, she will hit MLC.
Like talking to God: "That is life ?" WTF ? I wont be old, wont die, I wanna live again." Ignoring reality and start to live in fantasy world.
She use to have faith in God, maybe under my influence, she does not literally believe in God, but believe in goodness, kindness... She come from atheistic mother and only traditional by faith father. I ask her several months ago: "Do You believe in God ?" She said: "No."
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Looking at the Emotional Guidance Scale, I can actually feel the difference as I read the words.
Great thread Albatross, thank you!
Was curious why the name Albatross, and now I know :) symbol of "psychological burden that feels like a curse"
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Looking at the Emotional Guidance Scale, I can actually feel the difference as I read the words.
Great thread Albatross, thank you!
Was curious why the name Albatross, and now I know :) symbol of "psychological burden that feels like a curse"
You are welcome. I did not know that what You wrote, thank You. I am forever learner, like to learn whole my life. Why I pick Albatross as nick on many forums is: I like sky, highs, freedom, and Albatross is magnificent bird, they also rare monogamous birds. If their mate die, they live until death alone ! In my case will be like that, with my soul-mate or alone forever... I am pure romantic guy who believe in love.
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When H and I met, I was relatively happy, and quite outgoing. Over time, I felt that I kind of dragged along, and went through the motions, but then, a few years before BD, there was a definite sense of gloom. I used to think it was just me, being home for years, loving being with the kids, but maybe it was time for a change, but not yet, when they were a little older. So that was okay, a normal reaction, I thought, and quite happy to wait until the right time to consider other options ie work or school.
The kids and I would be all fine and happy, and the second H walked into the house, the atmosphere instantly changed. The air became thick, and everyone got upset. It happened every time. Almost like we were waiting for the next episode with him.
Just before he left at BD, I remember walking to the mall, thinking how do I get out of this, how do we make it stop? I couldn't stand it anymore, but I would never leave him or the kids, and knew he would never get help, as it was never his "fault".
After a year of him being gone, and going through the process of grieving, I can honestly see that person I used to be coming back. Not that I left, but just maybe on hold?
I used to think it was me who had the problem, but reading this, I see that maybe it was my reaction to some of my own things going on, but additionally, his too.
When I think of standing, I guess I go back to thoughts of that man, and no, I would never subject myself or the children to that EVER again. There would have to be drastic changes for me to ever want to be around him, if at all.
Everything was my fault, the kids fault, you name it, and I wondered was it me, or was he just abusive, but now, I do think hes in MLC, so maybe all that other stuff was just his struggles. Doesn't mean it was okay, as we were still targets, but I feel the kids and I are somewhat relieved to not be in it anymore.
We are happier people now than I think we ever were. Sure, we miss the man he was, but that man has gone, and we are coming to accept it.
Maybe this is the real us, and the real me was hiding the last couple of years before he went, but never knowing why, but sensing something wasn't right.
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Hi,
May I ask a Replay question? My H was friendly with me when he dropped the bomb. We slept in the same bed for a few months after, we were intimate for a couple of months. I was staring the whole pleading thing. he began to blame me for everything, he just got meaner and more nasty in the next couple of months. He started leaving home on the weekends. He eventually started staying away from home on the week days. Eventually he only came home 1 night per week, at this time he stopped talking to me all together. He said It would all click with me one day, how bad of a wife I was.
He moved out of the house this past May. He emailed me in June and July. Now...nothing.
It seems that he progressively disappeared little by little. Is this what they do in replay? Move further and further away until they disappear? I am guessing this is movement through the tunnel?
BD 3/2010~unhappy
BD 3/2012~no longer wants to be in a committed relationship
4/2012~D filed
2/2013~emailed to let me know he is dating
5/2013~moved out
Married 31 years/together 36 years
Thank you for the input...I appreciate it!
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Beautiful Heart, I want to replace one word in one of your sentences...'It would all click with me one day, how bad of a HUSBAND I was'
This sounds like guilt and projection. Were you fairly forgiving during this period? Do you think your willingness to stand by him during this period just made him feel more guilty?
I did the same thing and wouldn't change my actions but I do remember H saying that I didn't deserve his confusion about 4 months before he moved out.
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Regression, according to psychoanalyst Sigmund Freud, is a defense mechanism leading to the temporary or long-term reversion of the ego to an earlier stage of development rather than handling unacceptable impulses in a more adult way. The defense mechanism of regression, in psychoanalytic theory, occurs when an individual's personality reverts to an earlier stage of development, adopting more childish mannerisms.
Jung had earlier argued that 'the patient's regressive tendency...is not just a relapse into infantilism, but an attempt to get at something necessary...the universal feeling of childhood innocence, the sense of security, of protection, of reciprocated love, of trust'
Jungians had however already warned that 'romantic regression meant a surrender to the non-rational side which had to be paid for by a sacrifice of the rational and individual side'
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Beautifulheart,
As horrible as this is for you, it's all pretty script and normal in MLCer land. They do pull away more and more. Try not to worry, my H did this. I was terrified at the time. Things Wil change again - they always do.
My H turned back towards me around the three year mark. I saw all sorts of strange bshaviors until then. Come to think of it, it's still strange! He he.
X
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My H turned back towards me around the three year mark. I saw all sorts of strange behaviors until then. Come to think of it, it's still strange! He he.
I'm sure the one I was involved with behavior is still strange and I'm really glad I don't have to see it, listen to, it sleep with it or anything else! :)
Too bad nobody else in that family SEES it.
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Beautiful Heart, I want to replace one word in one of your sentences...'It would all click with me one day, how bad of a HUSBAND I was'
This sounds like guilt and projection. Were you fairly forgiving during this period? Do you think your willingness to stand by him during this period just made him feel more guilty?
I did the same thing and wouldn't change my actions but I do remember H saying that I didn't deserve his confusion about 4 months before he moved out.
Hopeandfaith,
Thank you, this makes sense to me now. I have been struggling with "projection" not quite knowing exactly what it's all about. You have explained it perfectly! Yes, I was forgiving, and willing to stand by him. I wouldn't change my actions either. He also said "none of this makes any sense to me" shortly before he moved out.
About the guilt...he wrote me off, he will not come to the house, he pretends like I don't exist, I think this is his guilt!!! Thank you again, this is all a learning experience and I learn something new everyday. :)
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Albatross,
My h is living with ow who is half his age, with 2 small children. Our children are grown. He stops to see his grnd dtr 2 times a week for about 5-10 minutes. I want to tell him to come in the evening and give me my house key back. Am I pushing him further away? Also he states he wants to get this relationship with ow right. Bd was dec of 2012 married for 38 years.is this still replay or has he gone through liminality and this is his decision. What are your thoughts?
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Beautifulheart,
As horrible as this is for you, it's all pretty script and normal in MLCer land. They do pull away more and more. Try not to worry, my H did this. I was terrified at the time. Things Wil change again - they always do.
My H turned back towards me around the three year mark. I saw all sorts of strange bshaviors until then. Come to think of it, it's still strange! He he.
X
It's good to know "normal in MLC land" I just needed to confirm that H is on the wrong track!!! LOL
It's pretty frustrating at this point, well this whole thing has been frustrating!!!
I just need to take it one day at a time...try to find the good, the positives, and like my mom always says "rise above it, this too shall pass".
I hope you doing well Serenity, have a lovely day!
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Albatross,
My h is living with ow who is half his age, with 2 small children. Our children are grown. He stops to see his grnd dtr 2 times a week for about 5-10 minutes. I want to tell him to come in the evening and give me my house key back. Am I pushing him further away? Also he states he wants to get this relationship with ow right. Bd was dec of 2012 married for 38 years.is this still replay or has he gone through liminality and this is his decision. What are your thoughts?
9 months since BD, he should be still in replay. Don't push him away. But You should know better, You have guts, feelings about him, hunch. Also all facts which I don't know. Anyway, if You see total opposite person what he was before MLC than he is still in replay.
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I just realized that my last post was not about "replay" so I will move it my own thread. Hehehe! Oops
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Hi Albatross. Fascinating stuff! My earlier post was trying to relate to something you'd said previously, which I think was about feeling their depression. I look back and see that I, too, felt it, and when he entered a room, the atmosphere changed from happiness or tolerable to instant negative. After he left, and we grieved for a year, I find myself happier in some ways as he isnt around and so less negativity in the air. We all felt it. Now I feel more like the person I was when we met, or how I was up until a couple of years before he left. Not as dragged down as I used to be. Thank you.
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Regression, according to psychoanalyst Sigmund Freud, is a defense mechanism leading to the temporary or long-term reversion of the ego to an earlier stage of development rather than handling unacceptable impulses in a more adult way. The defense mechanism of regression, in psychoanalytic theory, occurs when an individual's personality reverts to an earlier stage of development, adopting more childish mannerisms.
Jung had earlier argued that 'the patient's regressive tendency...is not just a relapse into infantilism, but an attempt to get at something necessary...the universal feeling of childhood innocence, the sense of security, of protection, of reciprocated love, of trust'
Jungians had however already warned that 'romantic regression meant a surrender to the non-rational side which had to be paid for by a sacrifice of the rational and individual side'
Thank you Albatross, this is a great thread!
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Hi
I'm a little late (been away) so just attaching to Part II of this awesome topic
:)
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Albatross In my situation my h's ow helps to run our business, so he is with her 24hrs a day. She is half his age and was our daughters best friend but is the type that has to has attention all the time. If I tell my h to come at nite to see his grnd dtr, would it be better as he would have to let ow know he is coming here. Right now she doesn't know he comes to take his grnd dtr to school.he has I need to accept that he wants a life with her please respond
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Dreamer, just chiming in here. I would tell your H to come and visit Grd dtr at night if that is what suits you better -not because it 'outs' him to the OW. You need to be careful when any of your actions are designed to bring about a response/result from H or his OW - it always backfires ::)
It sounds to me like your H is in replay but may be finding out that the grass is not greener already. It rang bells with me when you said that he talked about wanting to get his relationship with OW right. It already sounds like something that requires work and therefore isn't the effortless fantasy land they would lead us to believe. If he is hiding the fact that he sees your grand daughter from her then he is already on a short leash - good luck with that H!!
I think it's always better to step back and let them self destruct. 24hrs a day is a lot of time so that might happen soon.
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Regression, according to psychoanalyst Sigmund Freud, is a defense mechanism leading to the temporary or long-term reversion of the ego to an earlier stage of development rather than handling unacceptable impulses in a more adult way. The defense mechanism of regression, in psychoanalytic theory, occurs when an individual's personality reverts to an earlier stage of development, adopting more childish mannerisms.
Jung had earlier argued that 'the patient's regressive tendency...is not just a relapse into infantilism, but an attempt to get at something necessary...the universal feeling of childhood innocence, the sense of security, of protection, of reciprocated love, of trust'
Jungians had however already warned that 'romantic regression meant a surrender to the non-rational side which had to be paid for by a sacrifice of the rational and individual side'
As my wife hit escape & avoid September 2011. (her birthday) she start to detach from world. After whole year in escape and avoid she hit EA preciously at her birthday again September 2012. At new year she ban me in bed. At February I ask her what happening to You ? And we start to talk about our marriage, that was bait... She said that our marriage is on low point, we can't go lower. And I catch the bait. Before we clash she was typical ANTIHERO (http://loveanyway.theherosspouse.com/uncategorized/antihero/). After clashes she REGRESS A LOT ! After fighting she become ACCOMMODATER (http://loveanyway.theherosspouse.com/midlife-crisis-and-infidelity/accommodater/). So, she blame self before clashes, after clashes she start to project blame on me.
And took almost 6 months to back on track. Regression is defense mechanism. She was so scared and anxious that was unbearable to watch... It was like I am SS officer in her eyes and she was little 6 year old Jewish girl in concentration camp. It was most frightening moment of my entire life !
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Dear hope and faith, I only see my h 1 or 2 times a week for about 10 minutes, when he takes our grnd dtr to school. He keeps saying to me you know this is not about her,it's about us. I don't give any response as I don't know if I should talk relationship. He is constantly trying to make ow like she has nothing to do with this and she is a good person. Do you think he is trying to convince me or himself? How to respond when he wants to talk relationship?
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Thank you for starting a new Replay thread, Albatross.
Except that “regression” (I don’t truly believe they regress, juts that there are all sorts of neuro chemical and hormonal imbalances that makes them see everything twisted is self-destruction. “Regression” does not protect the MLCer from anything, it just causes more and more damages to themselves, families, friends, you name it.
It was like I am SS officer in her eyes and she was little 6 year old Jewish girl in concentration camp. It was most frightening moment of my entire life !
I see it more the other way round. Mad MLCer looks like menacing,violent SS officer that needs to kill everything (at least male MLCers who become violent do), LBS is the 6 year old Jewish girl that has to go because she knows to much about the MLCer.
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A question about REPLAY:
Is the MLCer aware that they are wrecking everything in their life and are so out of control they are unable to do anything about it? (ie alienator attraction)
Do they truly believe that the OP is 'the one'?
Or, are they totally oblivious and just living for the moment.
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Do they truly believe that the OP is 'the one'?
They want a CLEAN SLATE.
Someone who has NO clue what they are about. They believe thier own Bullsh!t because they have no sense of them selves and are looking outside of themselves to try to find it.
They are looking for praise and admiration and what they look at as POSITIVE feed from someone who's in worse shape than them. Hard to believe that's possible..Right?.
What they don't realize is NO ONE ELSE CAN GIVE THAT TO THEM. They have to give it to themselves instead.
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Thank you. :D
I am clearly getting impatient! I want this all to go away. :(
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A question about REPLAY:
Is the MLCer aware that they are wrecking everything in their life and are so out of control they are unable to do anything about it? (ie alienator attraction)
No.
Do they truly believe that the OP is 'the one'?
Or, are they totally oblivious and just living for the moment.
I believe so.
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Thank you for starting a new Replay thread, Albatross.
You are welcome ! :)
Except that “regression” (I don’t truly believe they regress, juts that there are all sorts of neuro chemical and hormonal imbalances that makes them see everything twisted is self-destruction. “Regression” does not protect the MLCer from anything, it just causes more and more damages to themselves, families, friends, you name it.
They regress, believe me, I am the witness. It took so long time that she get back in present ego state which is closer of her ego before MLC. I can tell You more details about it, if You are interested.
It was like I am SS officer in her eyes and she was little 6 year old Jewish girl in concentration camp. It was most frightening moment of my entire life !
I see it more the other way round. Mad MLCer looks like menacing,violent SS officer that needs to kill everything (at least male MLCers who become violent do), LBS is the 6 year old Jewish girl that has to go because she knows to much about the MLCer.
I can partially agree with You about this. But believe me they are frightened to death. They do not know what happened to them. Like You say they live in la - la world to avoid pain. So they reactions are pure defensive.
So, GOLDEN RULE for LBS repeated as MANTRA million times is:
Detach = Leave their twisted emotional roller coaster to keep SANITY, otherwise You will be socked in their madness.
Let it go = Cut the ties with them, they have to ESCAPE & AVOID. Otherwise if You push them they will be more DEFENSE and distant from You.
Surrender = You can't fix them, only they can do, but they need long time to do it with God's help.
Acceptance = Our marriage is in their hands and Gods hands, normal person have to accept reality otherwise will become la - la as they are.
We have to rebuild our self, and wait. Love them even they are broken. Provide for them sanctuary. I made here success. My wife is 100 % reconnected with home now. She escape from reality in our home, she feels safe there. Why ? Because I don't expect anything from her. Don't ask anything. Just respond instead react.
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I am clearly getting impatient! I want this all to go away. :(
And that's NOT unusual... I wanted that also..I thought I'd die from the destruction and watching what the kids were going through. He was driving me NUTS!! As much as I tried NOT to be effected I might not hear from him and get a little stronger 9 days later he'd do something again to get my attention. It was like he could SENSE it!
I didn't know enough to simply stop the roller-coaster and get off and let him self destruct.
The girls were the only thing that woke him up. He was going to lose THE girls...not me. HE KNEW I WAS STILL THERE. He was trying to hurt ME as much as possible make me PAY for HIS life. But he was killing the kids along with me.
Now he has gotten rid of me again and he has the girls this time. No ow that I know of..maybe he does..who knows... who cares..
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So, GOLDEN RULE for LBS repeated as MANTRA million times is:
Detach = Leave their twisted emotional roller coaster to keep SANITY, otherwise You will be socked in their madness.
Let it go = Cut the ties with them, they have to ESCAPE & AVOID. Otherwise if You push them they will be more DEFENSE and distant from You.
Surrender = You can't fix them, only they can do, but they need long time to do it with God's help.
Acceptance = Our marriage is in their hands and Gods hands, normal person have to accept reality otherwise will become la - la as they are.
Well said! Agreed! The more you do it, the easier it becomes, but so much more easier when the MLCer isn't around, otherwise, so difficult and painful, can't imagine. Truly feel that working on detachment brings such a sense of peace and calm because it brings a sense of indifference at times. Lots of cycling, but it does get better. I think detachment is different for different people, and some find it easier than others, depending upon their own history and coping mechanisms, and their relationship with their spouse throughout. Family and friends can either be a huge plus, or a huge detriment, when it comes to that, I feel, as after all is said and done, no "advice" from anyone who doesn't understand or experience it, might not be the best, although with good intention.
Thank you Albatross. Have a nice flight! ;)
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Regression, according to psychoanalyst Sigmund Freud, is a defense mechanism leading to the temporary or long-term reversion of the ego to an earlier stage of development rather than handling unacceptable impulses in a more adult way. The defense mechanism of regression, in psychoanalytic theory, occurs when an individual's personality reverts to an earlier stage of development, adopting more childish mannerisms.
Jung had earlier argued that 'the patient's regressive tendency...is not just a relapse into infantilism, but an attempt to get at something necessary...the universal feeling of childhood innocence, the sense of security, of protection, of reciprocated love, of trust'
Jungians had however already warned that 'romantic regression meant a surrender to the non-rational side which had to be paid for by a sacrifice of the rational and individual side'
As my wife hit escape & avoid September 2011. (her birthday) she start to detach from world. After whole year in escape and avoid she hit EA preciously at her birthday again September 2012. At new year she ban me in bed. At February I ask her what happening to You ? And we start to talk about our marriage, that was bait... She said that our marriage is on low point, we can't go lower. And I catch the bait. Before we clash she was typical ANTIHERO (http://loveanyway.theherosspouse.com/uncategorized/antihero/). After clashes she REGRESS A LOT ! After fighting she become ACCOMMODATER (http://loveanyway.theherosspouse.com/midlife-crisis-and-infidelity/accommodater/). So, she blame self before clashes, after clashes she start to project blame on me.
And took almost 6 months to back on track. Regression is defense mechanism. She was so scared and anxious that was unbearable to watch... It was like I am SS officer in her eyes and she was little 6 year old Jewish girl in concentration camp. It was most frightening moment of my entire life !
Albatross,
Could you elaborate further on the point below?
'And took almost 6 months to back on track. '
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Albatross,
Could you elaborate further on the point below?
'And took almost 6 months to back on track. '
Sorry, my native is not English. In fact, I never learn English in the school. Means I learn it by my self, alone. So, I will try to put that sentence in different form. After we start talking about us and our marriage she regress very badly. And after I calm down and stop talking about her, about us and only live life, talking about everything else except about her and us she come back in present ego state. Means she is recovered from ego regression. She is now even better then before we clash. For that she need to be in calm not hostile environment which I provide for her. And that process take almost 6 months.
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Albatross,
Are you saying that just by taking the hostility out she started reconnecting with you? Did your wife have an 'awakening' of any kind?
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Albatross, you know mine has been gone for 7 years (minus one month) don't you? And that in all those 7 years he has not returned to the person he was only become worse and more “lost” so to speak. And that I have been away from him for over 6 years, I moved back to our home town, and have not seen it in over 5.
I don't exactly see things the way many LBS see them and I also lean more towards the neurochemical point of view of MLC than of childhood issues/only psychological ones view. I do know about Freud and Jung, and others, theories. There is a bit of Jung I agree with but Jung was only looking at external signs, he was not looking into neurological or hormonal factors. Of course he did not had the technologies and knowledge we have today
Well, mine is not defensive. Or, from a certain point on, he become an attacker and only that. Why do I say this? Because of his 2 divorce court cases. Both were filled when I had long left and was out of his way. The second one was started early 2011. By early 2011 I had long detached and did not keep contact with him. His only aim is to attack, cause hurt and damage. So much that he refuses to deal. We are not talking about someone early on Replay but of someone who has been in Replay for nearly 8 years.
If he is frighten to death he only has himself and his long lasting Replay activities to blame. But I doubt he is frighten to death. He is just drunk, both literally and with “success”.
7 years down the road Detachment, Letting Go, Surrender and Acceptance have been more than used. None of them changed a thing as far as Mr J crisis is concerned nor solving our legal situation, that is, getting me divorced. He always drags. And it is not funny nor it means he loves me or whatever, it just prevents me from remarry and have children.
After all this years there is no more waiting. Of course, if one wants, one can wait until the rest of our lives. For me Mr J is too lost and has been for too long in la la la land.
No, our marriage is, in fact, in our hands. If we don't want them back, no matter how much they may want to reconcile (if that is the case) there is no marriage.
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Albatross,
Are you saying that just by taking the hostility out she started reconnecting with you? Did your wife have an 'awakening' of any kind?
I did not notice any significant sign which I can call "awakening". But she gradually come to clarity in safe home. Yea it take long time February - September. She is better and better every day. Sure cycling exists but she make progress gradually.
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Albatross, you know mine has been gone for 7 years (minus one month) don't you? And that in all those 7 years he has not returned to the person he was only become worse and more “lost” so to speak. And that I have been away from him for over 6 years, I moved back to our home town, and have not seen it in over 5.
I don't exactly see things the way many LBS see them and I also lean more towards the neurochemical point of view of MLC than of childhood issues/only psychological ones view. I do know about Freud and Jung, and others, theories. There is a bit of Jung I agree with but Jung was only looking at external signs, he was not looking into neurological or hormonal factors. Of course he did not had the technologies and knowledge we have today
Well, mine is not defensive. Or, from a certain point on, he become an attacker and only that. Why do I say this? Because of his 2 divorce court cases. Both were filled when I had long left and was out of his way. The second one was started early 2011. By early 2011 I had long detached and did not keep contact with him. His only aim is to attack, cause hurt and damage. So much that he refuses to deal. We are not talking about someone early on Replay but of someone who has been in Replay for nearly 8 years.
If he is frighten to death he only has himself and his long lasting Replay activities to blame. But I doubt he is frighten to death. He is just drunk, both literally and with “success”.
7 years down the road Detachment, Letting Go, Surrender and Acceptance have been more than used. None of them changed a thing as far as Mr J crisis is concerned nor solving our legal situation, that is, getting me divorced. He always drags. And it is not funny nor it means he loves me or whatever, it just prevents me from remarry and have children.
After all this years there is no more waiting. Of course, if one wants, one can wait until the rest of our lives. For me Mr J is too lost and has been for too long in la la la land.
Awww. I am sorry to hear that. :-[
No, our marriage is, in fact, in our hands. If we don't want them back, no matter how much they may want to reconcile (if that is the case) there is no marriage.
Sure. But I assume that we as standers wanna to get back our spouses.
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Just found your second thread, had been following the first avidly. I love the spiral picture, it makes sense. I agree with detachment and letting go. I'm just finally accepting this letting go stage, which is very frightening, as you are going into unchartered territory. But it can't be worse than feeling the way I felt in the last few months...I believe my H to be in replay, but bits of escape and avoid are there. I wonder at times if he is coming out of Replay, or is that too soon? BD was 31st December 2012, but in hindsight, there was a BD in October 2011, but I did not recognise it, as he did not actually say he had started an affair, he was talking about a new love, different life, but did not actually make any sense. technically, BD is now 2 years, so does that mean he is coming out of Replay, and towards end of tunnel? Is it Liminality, but I don't understand what that is exactly?
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Awww. I am sorry to hear that. :-[
It's Ok. Not all MLCers are done in 2-4 years and a selected few seem to never be done (or may take many, many years).
Sure. But I assume that we as standers wanna to get back our spouses.
From what I've observed in real life and here on the board up to a point. If the MLCer takes too many years and nothing changes the LBS move on. In the early times, yes, all LBS want their spouses back, with time that may change, and often changes.
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I believe my H to be in replay, but bits of escape and avoid are there. I wonder at times if he is coming out of Replay, or is that too soon? BD was 31st December 2012, but in hindsight, there was a BD in October 2011, but I did not recognise it, as he did not actually say he had started an affair, he was talking about a new love, different life, but did not actually make any sense. technically, BD is now 2 years, so does that mean he is coming out of Replay, and towards end of tunnel? Is it Liminality, but I don't understand what that is exactly?
Escape & Avoid = REPLAY.
2 years is average for REPLAY what I read on net. Could be longer, also shorter.
Liminality = Overt Depression begins when MLCer awake from REPLAY and dump OW/OM and go out of REPLAY.
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awake from REPLAY
What causes the awakening. Is it just a natural progression?
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awake from REPLAY
What causes the awakening. Is it just a natural progression?
MLCers are like drug addicts, when their REPLAY behavior = EA, PA don't bring them out of confrontation with their shadow, they awake. It is sort of natural progression, but time spend in REPLAY or use of REPLAY is different for all MLCers.
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Thanks for the clarification, I had misunderstood the Escape and avoid being the same as Reply, I thought there were differences!
Well, OW is definitely gone, and there is, in fact, more withdrawal from me.
I have stopped contacting him, and will only respond to texts (if they ever come) if an answer is required. I like your post about how you managed to make a safe zone for your wife. I have not always been that kind, and have lashed out in anger and fear. I made a promise to stop that and create a safe zone of my own, but as he is not living with us, it will have to be the fake it till you can make it approach!
Albatross, your posts are good, and they help me. Thank you
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Patience there is a lot of " fake it till you make it" done by us LBS's sometimes. The only way to get through at times:)
Feeling safe is good for your H and for you!
31
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31, thank you! And today is another day!
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I am sure this is the articles but I cannot remember, I am 17 months since H left, BD3. Escape and Avoid started 2010. My H is high energy Replay, he is having a great time. Lives with OW ... 25, moved in a month after leaving us (23 when their affair started).
What I find difficult to understand is the anger and nastiness is ONLY directed at me. He is super happy and himself with everyone else, the children, OW, friends, family. Why?
I know he blames me for holding him and making his life hell and unhappy .... he now has the contrast of a great R to compare to our very dysfunctional R apparently .... but before he left me he blamed his parents and their D.
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I am sure this is the articles but I cannot remember, I am 17 months since H left, BD3. Escape and Avoid started 2010. My H is high energy Replay, he is having a great time. Lives with OW ... 25, moved in a month after leaving us (23 when their affair started).
What I find difficult to understand is the anger and nastiness is ONLY directed at me. He is super happy and himself with everyone else, the children, OW, friends, family. Why?
I know he blames me for holding him and making his life hell and unhappy .... he now has the contrast of a great R to compare to our very dysfunctional R apparently .... but before he left me he blamed his parents and their D.
Parental divorce have enormous impact on children. They lost security. It is very hard to live as undeveloped human being when family fall apart... They will never feel secure in relationship, marriage. Like my wife, she blame self (http://mlcforum.theherosspouse.com/index.php?topic=3654.msg223502#msg223502)at beginning of MLC. She blame also parents, specially her mother and she was ANTIHERO (http://loveanyway.theherosspouse.com/uncategorized/antihero/). After clashes she REGRESS A LOT ! After fighting she become ACCOMMODATER (http://loveanyway.theherosspouse.com/midlife-crisis-and-infidelity/accommodater/). So, she blame self before clashes, after clashes she start to project blame on me. REPLAY is about getting freedom. In my case her EA made progress and she live in fantasy world more then in real world. She made decision to start new life as You can see in her blog. She is so passive, conflict avoider even in MLC, she said that she can live like that 20 years... But when I push her hard, reveal her EA, she regress and her monster take her over. MLCers are pity, weak, under depression, in fog, they can't decide anything. So actually she got some kind of freedom, distance from me A LOT.
Did You two have some fights before he start to blame You ?
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Hi albatross, we have had lots of arguments in our R. We met when I was 24, he was 22. We had a fun time in our twenties, lots of parties and drinking and sometimes big rows! When I had my s8 I suffered with post natal depression and H was still wanting pre baby life but trying to be excellent dad, which he was. I found it all difficult, he was always arguing with me, he would argue with others too, you know big debates that h had to win. He was like that.
We moved and he couldn't get work so he set up a business. I had second baby and 2010 he started business and spending more and more time in the city we had moved from (I never wanted to move). I was resentful because he spent our money and I felt abandoned in this place away from my friends and with a baby and 5 yr old. Then in nov. 2010 he said he wanted out, couldn't do this anymore, couldn't let another day, week or year go by without doing something about it. I made him feel like his parents, made him feel unloved and that we were still young and could find someone else. He went on and after that I sank into a depression, just waiting for him to move out when he started earning money or met someone else. Which he did, march 2012 was bd2 but two weeks later he changed his mind. He said he will get therapy and i will sort out my depression and pms and we will really work on our R. He stayed for my d3s second birthday, we went on a holiday then a week later he said he was leaving. A month after that I found out he was having an affair with the 23 year old intern he had known for six months and that unleashed MONSTER! He was so blaming, he had hypnotherapy so he could fly in a plane, he blamed his phobia on me even though he hasn't flown since he was 15, when his parents D. He had false memories in hypnotherapy and he told me he had been suffering with Stockholm syndrome and that was why he stayed for ten years and had kids etc. he tried to make me happy bit nothing worked!!! This is not true! I had typical ups and downs of people going through the baby years with a H who earned no money but spent our savings leaving us with less than half when he left.
So it was up and down but I don't know how bad it was anymore because my H has really gone to town with the negative.
I just don't understand the niceness to everyone else and the total hatred of me. He was half of every one of those arguments. He was as tricky to deal with as I was at times. We understood that I thought. I think we both looked to the other to make us happy. But we had so many stresses and we didnt communicate very well when we were really under pressure. He projected a lot of his anger at his mother onto me. And I was not aware of the term projection until all this! I turned my anger onto him because I felt resentful and put upon. I earned the money, I did the housework and I looked after the kids. He had fun with our money and our time and was risking our family. My son was very troubled by his dads absence when the business started, previously he had been a super hands on always around dad.
It's so complicated and there are so many outside factors. When I read this back I think, maybe h is right, the R was dysfunctional. But I felt like it was us as individuals not our R or our marriage that needed attention. But maybe I am wrong and I'm just clinging onto that?
I also feel like he has drawn upon examples ten yeas old and I'm not the same person.
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I am sure this is the articles but I cannot remember, I am 17 months since H left, BD3. Escape and Avoid started 2010. My H is high energy Replay, he is having a great time. Lives with OW ... 25, moved in a month after leaving us (23 when their affair started).
What I find difficult to understand is the anger and nastiness is ONLY directed at me. He is super happy and himself with everyone else, the children, OW, friends, family. Why?
I know he blames me for holding him and making his life hell and unhappy .... he now has the contrast of a great R to compare to our very dysfunctional R apparently .... but before he left me he blamed his parents and their D.
Parental divorce have enormous impact on children. They lost security. It is very hard to live as undeveloped human being when family fall apart... They will never feel secure in relationship, marriage. Like my wife, she blame self (http://mlcforum.theherosspouse.com/index.php?topic=3654.msg223502#msg223502)at beginning of MLC. She blame also parents, specially her mother and she was ANTIHERO (http://loveanyway.theherosspouse.com/uncategorized/antihero/). After clashes she REGRESS A LOT ! After fighting she become ACCOMMODATER (http://loveanyway.theherosspouse.com/midlife-crisis-and-infidelity/accommodater/). So, she blame self before clashes, after clashes she start to project blame on me. REPLAY is about getting freedom. In my case her EA made progress and she live in fantasy world more then in real world. She made decision to start new life as You can see in her blog. She is so passive, conflict avoider even in MLC, she said that she can live like that 20 years... But when I push her hard, reveal her EA, she regress and her monster take her over. MLCers are pity, weak, under depression, in fog, they can't decide anything. So actually she got some kind of freedom, distance from me A LOT.
Did You two have some fights before he start to blame You ?
Albatross, I know you will probably say not a good idea, but you have written my H's and my life in that quote. Both come from separated families, both promised we would not do that to our children, and he has done just that (we are not divorced, he has moved out). I want to let him know what you say, in the hope it will make him think about what he is doing, and why he did what he did? I am NC at the moment, to try and keep sane, what do you think, is that considered pressure? I believe my H is projecting his anger at his mother, but he is not mean to me, he is just cold, distant, uniterested, no empathy, a little sure of himself!
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Albatross, I know you will probably say not a good idea, but you have written my H's and my life in that quote. Both come from separated families, both promised we would not do that to our children, and he has done just that (we are not divorced, he has moved out). I want to let him know what you say, in the hope it will make him think about what he is doing, and why he did what he did? I am NC at the moment, to try and keep sane, what do you think, is that considered pressure? I believe my H is projecting his anger at his mother, but he is not mean to me, he is just cold, distant, uniterested, no empathy, a little sure of himself!
I don't know what to say. MLCer is in terrible situation by him self. If You point him that, he will then feel even more guilt. And they running away from life - literally. He probably will try to run even faster. Remember escape and avoid. But You know better own situation, so it is up to You.
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Ok. On reflection the more I say the worse he feels. So mouth shut, but it is all so correct what you wrote and it reflects my H so much.
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PG
Good decision. Remember.....do not feed the monster. From what I have read on this forum, nothing you say or do will make any difference in his journey. In fact, you will probably make it worse and he will take longer to process. Anything that he is told that is contrary to what he is doing or wants to do he will rally against and avoid.
I know it is difficult but we all must try and do what we know is the best thing to do....not what our feelings make us want to do.
Hang in there and let him process on his own.
(((((hugs)))))
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Twilightzone, thanks for that, because I nearly did send it just now, but I re-read the posts and I won't. I am leaving him alone, he looks so depressed and lonely at the moment, I actually feel sorry for him. I still totally adore him, but he needs to stay away from me and me from him! Have a lovely weekend all of you who read this wonderful thread. thanks Albatross. PG
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When nobody feed their monster, they will start to blame someone else, like OM/OW. That we, LBS want it in the first place. It is like on forums: "Do not feed trolls." You can rephrase it: "Do not feed monster."
How long will it usually take for them to blame someone else, OW I hope. My H has been out of the house since May. We have not spoken or seen each other, so how will I even know if this is or will happen? He spends a lot of time with OW, I suspect they were having EA for about a year, apparently PA started in February this year. I'm not sure if they live together or not.
Thanks for your comments
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How long will it usually take for them to blame someone else, OW I hope. My H has been out of the house since May. We have not spoken or seen each other, so how will I even know if this is or will happen? He spends a lot of time with OW, I suspect they were having EA for about a year, apparently PA started in February this year. I'm not sure if they live together or not.
Thanks for your comments
Exists people who learn looking how other make errors and learn, and exists people who only can learn from own errors. Teenagers by the rule can learn only from own errors. So, MLCers are like teenagers, that is the reason why You can't talk to them rational and "save" them from bad things which they do or wanna do. They have to learn from own errors. They run by pure emotions, ratio recognize only how they feel. Imagine that kind of world where people make decisions about problems by how they feel about specific problem ? They have turbulent emotions, means that they change opinions violently. So, they don't trust self, neither to others. In brief, they are lost, undecided and very defensive, stubborn.
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We have a new poster Lanzo so i have split this thread from his first post so that we can support him properly and this thread remains focussed on Reply!
Edit - I have moved some of the posts back from that thread as I believe they should stay here.
Let me know if any other posts are messages to Lanzo. - OldPilot
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Exists people who learn looking how other make errors and learn, and exists people who only can learn from own errors. Teenagers by the rule can learn only from own errors. So, MLCers are like teenagers, that is the reason why You can't talk to them rational and "save" them from bad things which they do or wanna do. They have to learn from own errors. They run by pure emotions, ratio recognize only how they feel. Imagine that kind of world where people make decisions about problems by how they feel about specific problem ? They have turbulent emotions, means that they change opinions violently. So, they don't trust self, neither to others. In brief, they are lost, undecided and very defensive, stubborn.
This explains a lot, the stubbornness, especially when faced with what the "adults" believe is so rational, like who in their right minds would walk out on their family, when a few years back, if anyone had looked sideways at their children, or hurt their wives/husband, they would have jumped to their rescue. No accountability for their actions, whatsoever!
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Thank you for your reply Albatross & Patience, I appreciate it. I guess I better pop some popcorn, just sit back and wait to see what happens. For now, I hear the new couple is very happy! "Doing whatever they want"!
I never, in my whole life, would have thought H could be so SELFISH to leave his own family behind and go off with OW, have the time of his life, and never look back!! Replay at its best!!
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I never, in my whole life, would have thought H could be so SELFISH to leave his own family behind and go off with OW, have the time of his life, and never look back!! Replay at its best!!
Yep. That is hardest part... My wife was so moral and so ethical. So it is simple still unbelievable that she have EA with someone. And he is married !
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I never, in my whole life, would have thought H could be so SELFISH to leave his own family behind and go off with OW, have the time of his life, and never look back!! Replay at its best!!
Yep. That is hardest part... My wife was so moral and so ethical. So it is simple still unbelievable that she have EA with someone. And he is married !
It seems a common theme. Only 6 weeks before BD H was sounding off about his brother and his irresponsible behaviour (which I now believe also to be MLC). His selfishness, his inability to consider his family and children, his playboy lifestyle, his depression... POT AND KETTLE!! :o
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Thank you Albatross, for this thread. I have been reading this thread with passion because it validates so many things I've read in "the 6 stages of MLC".
Letting go, was the hardest thing I ever had to do, but, I had to learn to "let go", like every single person I talked to, had told me.
Last August, after 1 1/2 years of him being gone, I finally decided to let go. Following advice, I was always happy and cheerful when he was around, but believe me, I cried, every time I was by myself, yet, I followed the advice given to me and never let him see my pain. I let him have his journey, as hard as it was. It got easier, every day. I got stronger and stronger and started wondering why I was putting up with this in the first place. The rose colored glasses finally came off.
Last October, he texted me if I wanted him back, but that was all and nothing after that. I had told him yes, I wanted him back. Then he stopped texting. Maybe he was shocked, who knows. :o
In January, this year, I finally learned to really "let go", it was my New Year's resolution, to never look back, and there he goes again. He wanted to talk, told me; he had a tremendous amount of guilt for what he's done, told me he had closure now from OW.
I didn't believe it. It was just a gut feeling. After 25 years of living with him, I knew him like a book. I was right, he was still seeing her. She lives out of state and he lied about his travels, to make a very long story short. He used to comment on her Facebook and she used to put smiley faces next to his messages. Last time he traveled to see her was June, this year. In July, one post from him, no smiley faces, no comments from him or her, since. Maybe she's done with him, or he is done with her, who knows.
Today, 2 1/2 years after he moved out and 3 1/2 years after his affair had started, he told me he wanted to talk to me next weekend. His lease was up and things at work were going great, again,he was feeling so much better and he wanted to talk to me about coming back home :o :o
I had no words, just said ok and left it at that. Now, that I finally learned to really let go and to just live my life......
He had never told me before when/if he renewed his lease, never once talked about coming home. He came home most weekends for a couple hours, that was it.
We had a wonderful, happy marriage until he lost his mind. "Letting go" was a hard road, but the best advice ever given to me.
We will see what happens next weekend. I'll keep you posted.
Wish me luck!
Hope
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StillHoping
Letting go really is the hardest part because I find as much as I want it, a lot of it is out of my control too. I can't make myself heal faster. I will heal in my own good time. Every time I think I've let go enough I let go even more. I find it's the thought process that is the hardest. Rehashing the memories, the pain, the shock of it all. That, for me, is the hardest thing to let go of. All of the 'why's.
I do find it very interesting that as many have said on here, that it's the moment you really do actually let go that the MLCer senses this and moves back towards us.
Letting go is the only way of having a chance at getting them back.. IF we want them back that is ;)
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"""I find it's the thought process that is the hardest. Rehashing the memories, the pain, the shock of it all."""
You are right, that was and still is the hardest part of letting go, but in time, lots of it, it does get better. Like so many say "time is your friend", and that's all there is to it.
Wishing all of you the very best!!
Hope
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Still hoping, I am so pleased that you were able to let go and the result was that your h made moves to return. Also the timeline, 2.5 years since he moved out and he is feeling like he wants to return. Did he and ow ever live together? My h is living and working with ow and she has been introduced to kids, they play happy families. I am trying to let go. 17 months in and not a hint of return or anything like that.
Letting go, is it accepting what is. Accepting he wants D. Moving ahead with all the financial separation and D and then getting on with my life on my own?
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Just a question. I believe start of MLC was 2007, first BD oct2011 (but I do not recognise it as such) true BD (affair discovered)31 dec 2012. Moved out 1st jan. I not sure exactly what entails letting go. I have little contact with him. Does letting go mean whatever they do not do say not say, we don't react, even if it hurts like hell? Is 9mos my real start time, or oct 2011, and if so when could a possible return be? I suppose I feel more in control or helpful if I have a guide to go by?
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I have little contact with him. Does letting go mean whatever they do not do say not say, we don't react, even if it hurts like hell? Is 9mos my real start time, or oct 2011, and if so when could a possible return be? I suppose I feel more in control or helpful if I have a guide to go by?
PG
If you've entered no contact you are on the right track..if he's doing it chances are he thinks he's punishing you..when you don't initiate OR respond You are protecting yourself.
Try the three rule..how long has it been since you've had any communication? I mean any..texts emails calls etc?
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I think letting go means letting go. Like you would a teenage child who is out to look for their independence in adulthood. The more you resist, the more it persists.
I think it also means accepting that your old marriage is over, accepting that you cannot control the situation or any outcome.
Let go of fighting MLC and get on with YOUR life.
That is how I understand it :)
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Just a question. I believe start of MLC was 2007, first BD oct2011 (but I do not recognise it as such) true BD (affair discovered)31 dec 2012. Moved out 1st jan. I not sure exactly what entails letting go. I have little contact with him. Does letting go mean whatever they do not do say not say, we don't react, even if it hurts like hell? Is 9mos my real start time, or oct 2011, and if so when could a possible return be? I suppose I feel more in control or helpful if I have a guide to go by?
1. Detach (http://www.midlifecrisismarriageadvocate.com/self-focus_releasers_detach.html)
2. Let go (http://www.midlifecrisismarriageadvocate.com/self-focus_releasers_let-go.html)
3. Surrender (http://www.midlifecrisismarriageadvocate.com/self-focus_releasers_surrender.html)
4. Acceptance (http://www.midlifecrisismarriageadvocate.com/self-focus_releasers_acceptance.html)
Your and mine MLC timeline almost the same. :O
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Init, last text wax this morning for D10 pick up. Thank you for response, Booboo. Makes sense. Albatross, if it wasn't so sad, that would be funny, the timeline thing! Thank you for responses. NC is very hard, children involved!
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What kind of things bring replay to an end?
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What kind of things bring replay to an end?
Good question TT. Anyone want to try electro-shock therapy? Tasers? Lobotomy?
I'm game!
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A slap across the head? Quick and to the point!
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I think I read that sometimes it's the death of a loved one, or a physical injury, or breaking up with ow??? I can't see h and ow splitting up, they are working together, living together and have got it way too good.
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Sorry to heart that
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What kind of things bring replay to an end?
When they hit rock bottom and realize that all what they did in REPLAY totally not worth. Like drug addicts, they use bigger doses of drugs and they finally reach ceiling, no any dose bring to them high. Then they kill self overdosing or quit. Same is with MLCers, when they can't find anything which can bring them out of depression then they awake. Or they lost job, no money anymore on disposal. Or they feel that they will lost spouse for good. Many of reasons can be.
At REPLAY begins they cycle in mood fast and cycles are shorter in time. They seek something which can bring them out of depression. at end of replay cycling is also fast. Because they spend all things which they can use as drug. Escape and avoid for any cost confrontation with self, and for that is natural state depression.
Sou You can feel when cycles at end of replay become fast and short in time they are at end of replay. Then they stop hit overt depression, then they stop monstering You. They are in liminality.
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Good to know...will keep an eye on that one, I think tiny speckles of that are appearing with H, but then disappear....I said if I cannot be your wife, I cannot be your friend, which is true, and I think he heard me for the first time in a long time. Now I have to continue behaving as such...to protect me.
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What kind of things bring replay to an end?
At REPLAY begins they cycle in mood fast and cycles are shorter in time. They seek something which can bring them out of depression. at end of replay cycling is also fast. Because they spend all things which they can use as drug. Escape and avoid for any cost confrontation with self, and for that is natural state depression.
Sou You can feel when cycles at end of replay become fast and short in time they are at end of replay. Then they stop hit overt depression, then they stop monstering You. They are in liminality.
Albatross,
H recently decided to break up with OW out of fear that he would lose me forever; I really don't know if this will last but it is where we are at. I have noticed quite a few changes in him since this has happened; he is extremely restless, bored, feels alone, agitated, feels dread, cannot relax, sleep is being affected by restlessness and he can't stand being at home. He says that he feels like he is suffocating. Intially, I thought this was brought on by the break up with the OW but H says it has nothing to do with that. I am thinking that this is movement deeper into the tunnel but would love to hear your thoughts on it.
Thanks for the thread it is really thought provoking!
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Adding to Searchingforanswers, my H recently said he hates is job(never in 22 years I've known him has he ever said that), he is now ill and he never gets sick, and I believe him to be depressed. I suspect he is at the very start of liminality. Would those signs concur with that?
Your thread is brilliant, and your answers have always been very helpful. He is alone all the time, and feels it. Feels pressure (not from me, from the whole situation we are in) and feels guilt.
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Sounds like overt depression to me.
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Adding to Searchingforanswers, my H recently said he hates is job(never in 22 years I've known him has he ever said that), he is now ill and he never gets sick, and I believe him to be depressed. I suspect he is at the very start of liminality. Would those signs concur with that?
Your thread is brilliant, and your answers have always been very helpful. He is alone all the time, and feels it. Feels pressure (not from me, from the whole situation we are in) and feels guilt.
Just a bit of overt depression. I have seen it twice maybe even thrice since BD with my MLC'er.
Your BD is still fresh. Depression permeates through MLC. Be prepared to watch him fight that depressive stage with high level replay antics.
It's only the beginning, I 'm afraid. Protect yourself.
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Depressions is mighty. Specially depression which has long therm. For example my W is in MLC since 2007. Being depressed so long time and sinking lower and lower, take look at that spiral in this thread is devastating. She does not remember how it is being normal after so long time into depression !
Let me be honest with You. I sink into depression with her, which is natural. If You live with SO who gradually sink, You going with him down ! It is instinctive. As time pass, You start react on her bad mood with bad mood. Twisted ? Totally. So, as I wrote on several places here, I become zombie in year 2011. When we clash in February this year, I was literally totally broken first time in my life ! Depression was so deep, that I feel how my acting in daily life is not normal. Thanks God, antidepressants kick in and save me. After that I got spiral up !
Imagine how deep MLCer depression is when they become totally unstable ! Use immature defense mechanisms. Regressions and act as people with severe personality disorder.
MLIDLIFE CRISIS IS MOTHER OF ALL DEPRESSIONS.
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OK, I am grateful for the answers. The beginning of what? MLC or liminality? He will not admit to me he is depressed, I simply see it. He wears a mask with other people, but drops it when it's just he and I.
And you say you saw it 2 or 3 times, is that a phase, is it the way it happens, is it the beginning of coming out of the tunnel for you? I'm intrigued, because this is a new one for me...for a long time he was cocky and self assured and confident in his decision. Then it platformed into the limbo we are in, and now this guilt and remorseful look and speech, and I see depression. I get rib crushing hugs, and morose voice. I'm not being drawn in, I just look at it and wonder what he is doing????
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OK, I am grateful for the answers. The beginning of what? MLC or liminality? He will not admit to me he is depressed, I simply see it. He wears a mask with other people, but drops it when it's just he and I.
And you say you saw it 2 or 3 times, is that a phase, is it the way it happens, is it the beginning of coming out of the tunnel for you? I'm intrigued, because this is a new one for me...for a long time he was cocky and self assured and confident in his decision. Then it platformed into the limbo we are in, and now this guilt and remorseful look and speech, and I see depression. I get rib crushing hugs, and morose voice. I'm not being drawn in, I just look at it and wonder what he is doing????
IMHO, he need more drugs or give up. Three outcomes can be:
1. He can sink deeper in REPLAY.
2. Stay in limbo.
3. Enter in liminality.
I wish You number 3. It is very similar my situation. And both our MLCers have similar timelines.
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Let me be honest with You. I sink into depression with her, which is natural. If You live with SO who gradually sink, You going with him down ! It is instinctive. As time pass, You start react on her bad mood with bad mood.
Thanks Alb, that's what I was wondering about earlier in the thread. I found myself being dragged down, and it lifted when H left in some ways.
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OK, I am grateful for the answers. The beginning of what? MLC or liminality?
The beginning of replay.
He will not admit to me he is depressed, I simply see it. He wears a mask with other people, but drops it when it's just he and I.
Yup, same here, and it took him until last month (11th months) to not deny it anymore.
And you say you saw it 2 or 3 times, is that a phase, is it the way it happens, is it the beginning of coming out of the tunnel for you?
I wouldn't call it a phase, just 'swings of the moods'. He might want to escape and avoid ( the depression and consequences of his actions) to mask the moods, anxiety, worries, guilt etc....
I'm intrigued, because this is a new one for me...for a long time he was cocky and self assured and confident in his decision.
Yup, yup, yup!
Then it platformed into the limbo we are in, and now this guilt and remorseful look and speech, and I see depression.
Yes, I had that, too. In the same order and with the same timelime lol Script....
I get rib crushing hugs, and morose voice. I'm not being drawn in, I just look at it and wonder what he is doing????
He's making sure you are firmly planted there so he doesn't have to feel bad about his actions.
I have done everything you are doing. I questioned and doubted everything until it all really sank in. It sank in because I had read and reread all the articles, took advice from the other LBS here etc....Once I knew 100%, for sure, that my H was in MLC, was when I realised it was time to concentrate on myself, my kids, my pets and my home.
Read, read, read, post, post. Get it all out of your system, even if you don't get any replies.
Journalling really helps and this site is great for that.
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OK, I am grateful for the answers. The beginning of what? MLC or liminality? He will not admit to me he is depressed, I simply see it. He wears a mask with other people, but drops it when it's just he and I.
And you say you saw it 2 or 3 times, is that a phase, is it the way it happens, is it the beginning of coming out of the tunnel for you? I'm intrigued, because this is a new one for me...for a long time he was cocky and self assured and confident in his decision. Then it platformed into the limbo we are in, and now this guilt and remorseful look and speech, and I see depression. I get rib crushing hugs, and morose voice. I'm not being drawn in, I just look at it and wonder what he is doing????
IMHO, he need more drugs or give up. Three outcomes can be:
1. He can sink deeper in REPLAY.
2. Stay in limbo.
3. Enter in liminality.
I wish You number 3. It is very similar my situation. And both our MLCers have similar timelines.
Hi there Albatross. yes I noticed too that we have very similar timeline, which is a reason apart from the great info, that I read your thread and the changes in your W. My husband is not living with us anymore, so I am not affected by moods or indifference. Only when I see him and he is in Monster form do I feel bad. But I am practicing detachment more and more and I can usually "see" it like a spectator. It makes me sad to see him unravel, but I don't feel a need to rescue him.
I really hope he is entering Liminality, because he himself said he felt there was something wrong, he wanted to get better and he did not want to stay in guilt forever and he did not like hurting me as he has done. So I see glimpses of remorse, maybe not accountability yet, but he seems to have moved from guilt to remorse. How should I proceed? I know you have created a safe zone for your W, but I don't have him with me, so how can that be achieved?
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OK, I am grateful for the answers. The beginning of what? MLC or liminality? He will not admit to me he is depressed, I simply see it. He wears a mask with other people, but drops it when it's just he and I.
And you say you saw it 2 or 3 times, is that a phase, is it the way it happens, is it the beginning of coming out of the tunnel for you? I'm intrigued, because this is a new one for me...for a long time he was cocky and self assured and confident in his decision. Then it platformed into the limbo we are in, and now this guilt and remorseful look and speech, and I see depression. I get rib crushing hugs, and morose voice. I'm not being drawn in, I just look at it and wonder what he is doing????
IMHO, he need more drugs or give up. Three outcomes can be:
1. He can sink deeper in REPLAY.
2. Stay in limbo.
3. Enter in liminality.
I wish You number 3. It is very similar my situation. And both our MLCers have similar timelines.
I read somewhere on here to look at what changes to see if there is any progress but lately it seems that everything is changing more so than before{shrug}. It is weird to me that now H can't stand our house. He was just talking about all the things he wants to do to it and then the next day he wish it would burn down :o H has always been independant; now he is clinging to me for dear life. He admits that he feels restless and depressed, he also acknowledges MLC/MLT. We have been able to talk about it some but i am not sure how much I should really reveal. I am trying to stay strong so he has me to talk to as he feels there is no one else left :( It is a lot of pressure on me to stay balanced.
What would limbo look like?
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OK, I am grateful for the answers. The beginning of what? MLC or liminality?
The beginning of replay.
He will not admit to me he is depressed, I simply see it. He wears a mask with other people, but drops it when it's just he and I.
Yup, same here, and it took him until last month (11th months) to not deny it anymore.
And you say you saw it 2 or 3 times, is that a phase, is it the way it happens, is it the beginning of coming out of the tunnel for you?
I wouldn't call it a phase, just 'swings of the moods'. He might want to escape and avoid ( the depression and consequences of his actions) to mask the moods, anxiety, worries, guilt etc....
I'm intrigued, because this is a new one for me...for a long time he was cocky and self assured and confident in his decision.
Yup, yup, yup!
Then it platformed into the limbo we are in, and now this guilt and remorseful look and speech, and I see depression.
Yes, I had that, too. In the same order and with the same timelime lol Script....
I get rib crushing hugs, and morose voice. I'm not being drawn in, I just look at it and wonder what he is doing????
He's making sure you are firmly planted there so he doesn't have to feel bad about his actions.
I have done everything you are doing. I questioned and doubted everything until it all really sank in. It sank in because I had read and reread all the articles, took advice from the other LBS here etc....Once I knew 100%, for sure, that my H was in MLC, was when I realised it was time to concentrate on myself, my kids, my pets and my home.
Read, read, read, post, post. Get it all out of your system, even if you don't get any replies.
Journalling really helps and this site is great for that.
Booboo, I appreciate the answers. I do post a lot and I've had some fantastic support from all on this site. It's funny, when I read the articles now, they mean a lot more now than before.
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Albatross,
Is there much difference in the appearance of depression vs liminality? Is it one of those stages that we don't recognize it until after th fact? H says he been depressed for about a month or so now; he has been talking to me about it quite bit, says it helps him :o
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Albatross,
Is there much difference in the appearance of depression vs liminality? Is it one of those stages that we don't recognize it until after th fact? H says he been depressed for about a month or so now; he has been talking to me about it quite bit, says it helps him :o
Liminality is overt depression. Overt depression can be shown also if MLcer broke relationship with OW/OM.
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Albatross,
Is there much difference in the appearance of depression vs liminality? Is it one of those stages that we don't recognize it until after th fact? H says he been depressed for about a month or so now; he has been talking to me about it quite bit, says it helps him :o
Liminality is overt depression. Overt depression can be shown also if MLcer broke relationship with OW/OM.
So if it is overt depression then there is movement further into the tunnel? Does the MLCer not show overt depression during any other time?
Also, H did break up with OW recently but says the depreesion has nothing to do with that and that it started before the break up; OW withdraw last about 4 - 6 weeks right? So I should continue to look at what changes.
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Hi Albatross, I have a new thing said to me: my H told me his feelings were dead for me, I was obviously very shaken by that for a bit, then thought "Monster", Carzyjourney posted that that was the death of his Ego, I don't know if I quite understand what that means? Is it another break of himself? But if he does not recognise it, how does he use that to get better, or simply say, no feelings, so goodbye? i'm confused?
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Patience - I was told something very similar. I was told he had no feelings for me whatsoever, and was not attracted to me in any way, not physically, emotionally, etc... It does seem that they pick the most earth-shattering things they could possibly say, doesn't it?
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That's not monster....that's just plain mean. Cruel to the nth degree. He's in replay. When they are in replay, they have no feelings for anyone.....not even themselves. They may think they are in love with the OP, but they really are dead inside. It doesn't mean anything except that he is going through MLC.
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Patience - I was told something very similar. I was told he had no feelings for me whatsoever, and was not attracted to me in any way, not physically, emotionally, etc... It does seem that they pick the most earth-shattering things they could possibly say, doesn't it?
I never had him ever say he wasn't physically attracted to me.
He did say in a conversation once when I was talking about not having men for friends as all they wanted to to was get me into bed he said;
"I don't!" :o :o :o
I think it meant he wanted to be my friend?? I don't have a frigging clue..now I don't really care ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D
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I LOL'd, I hope that is ok!
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Twilightzone, thank you. Yes very mean and hurtful. Bet you he thought he was being honest with me!
Alwayshope, I've been told that too, I didn't do it for him anymore!
Init, you Made me laugh with that one.
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Can someone give me examples of replay activities when there is not an OW.
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Also, H did break up with OW recently but says the depreesion has nothing to do with that and that it started before the break up; OW withdraw last about 4 - 6 weeks right? So I should continue to look at what changes.
He is right, he had covert depression. They use affairs as drugs to escape from reality and depression. Now he haven't any more "drug" = OW and his depression is now deeper and more overt.
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Hi Albatross, I have a new thing said to me: my H told me his feelings were dead for me, I was obviously very shaken by that for a bit, then thought "Monster", Carzyjourney posted that that was the death of his Ego, I don't know if I quite understand what that means? Is it another break of himself? But if he does not recognise it, how does he use that to get better, or simply say, no feelings, so goodbye? i'm confused?
My wife told me that she feels nothing to me. How can she when she is in total mess, she haven't feelings for anyone including me, kids, parents etc. They are so preoccupied with self that nobody out them does not exists. It is hard to understand someone who is in total mess.
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Can someone give me examples of replay activities when there is not an OW.
My wife is in REPLAY since September 2011, now it is two bloody years. :D Bomb drop was after New Year 2013 when she refuse sex with me. I wait for her month and a half and then ask her what is wrong with her ?
What she did from September 2011. to New Year 2013 ? She escape from home whenever she can, her mother illness and father illness she use as alibi for more escape from home. She gather with younger people from previous firm where she work, they working honorary furniture. Also she start to contact people from her youth. Intensify communication with them, she made FB account at beginning of 2012. Also she become workaholic. And she often take our dog to hiking. She try to do stuff which "make her happy" and escape from reality.
That all was not enough to resist incoming shadow. So, EA start over bloody FB, she dig some guy when she had 16 and he had 22. They see each other only a 10 days maybe when he was on vacation on the coast in year 1982.
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Can someone give me examples of replay activities when there is not an OW.
My wife is in REPLAY since September 2011, now it is two bloody years. :D Bomb drop was after New Year 2013 when she refuse sex with me. I wait for her month and a half and then ask her what is wrong with her ?
What she did from September 2011. to New Year 2013 ? She escape from home whenever she can, her mother illness and father illness she use as alibi for more escape from home. She gather with younger people from previous firm where she work, they working honorary furniture. Also she start to contact people from her youth. Intensify communication with them, she made FB account at beginning of 2012. Also she become workaholic. And she often take our dog to hiking. She try to do stuff which "make her happy" and escape from reality.
That all was not enough to resist incoming shadow. So, EA start over bloody FB, she dig some guy when she had 16 and he had 22. They see each other only a 10 days maybe when he was on vacation on the coast in year 1982.
Searching,
My H started up snooker, then wanted to try golf. Then he went camping. Bought a new car. Bought a new laptop, IPad, new smart tv,....etc - the list goes on. Wanted to go out shopping. Bought loads of things for the house and almost HAD TO SPEND MONEY. Oh, had a lot of alcohol also. Significant withdrawal emotionally from family activities. He's been like this since Nov/Dec 2011.
And then, I guess when that didn't work, OW was waiting.
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Pretty much the same thing happened to me Panda ... ::)
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Also, H did break up with OW recently but says the depression has nothing to do with that and that it started before the break up; OW withdraw last about 4 - 6 weeks right? So I should continue to look at what changes.
He is right, he had covert depression. They use affairs as drugs to escape from reality and depression. Now he haven't any more "drug" = OW and his depression is now deeper and more overt.
Albatross,
Can this lead him to liminality? He is still showing relpay activities minus the OW. Currently, he can't stand to be at home, he can't be still/relax, he sleep is being affected. He does talk to me about him processing all of the BS that he has done in the last 8-9 months. He is looking to me for reassurances because he knows how screwed up he is feeling inside; he is trying to reconcile his behavior with himself. This all seems to be (dare I say it) progress to me. I am definitely in new territory.
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Albatross,
Can this lead him to liminality? He is still showing relpay activities minus the OW. Currently, he can't stand to be at home, he can't be still/relax, he sleep is being affected. He does talk to me about him processing all of the BS that he has done in the last 8-9 months. He is looking to me for reassurances because he knows how screwed up he is feeling inside; he is trying to reconcile his behavior with himself. This all seems to be (dare I say it) progress to me. I am definitely in new territory.
Can be only midlife transition. But if he show escape & avoid features, so far I see he does, I am afraid that maybe he have affair under the wings. EA or PA or both. In such a case You can expect soon bomb drop. My W was in REPLAY whole year before EA.
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Albatross,
Can this lead him to liminality? He is still showing relpay activities minus the OW. Currently, he can't stand to be at home, he can't be still/relax, he sleep is being affected. He does talk to me about him processing all of the BS that he has done in the last 8-9 months. He is looking to me for reassurances because he knows how screwed up he is feeling inside; he is trying to reconcile his behavior with himself. This all seems to be (dare I say it) progress to me. I am definitely in new territory.
Can be only midlife transition. But if he show escape & avoid features, so far I see he does, I am afraid that maybe he have affair under the wings. EA or PA or both. In such a case You can expect soon bomb drop. My W was in REPLAY whole year before EA.
I am still cautious about OW seeing that the break up was recent (2 weeks ago). I figure there are 2 options: he progresses with the depression and moves forward in the tunnel or he runs back to OW. Either way I will continue to take care of myself.
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I would agree S4A. My H is in a weird place. yesterday I heard his feelings were dead, today he was in therapy saying he wants to make things better???? And wants to attend therapy to heal himself and then wants therapy with me?? Go figure...what to think about this? i am being very careful not to jump to conclusions, just have a little glimmer of hope that he may start to peek out?
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I would agree S4A. My H is in a weird place. yesterday I heard his feelings were dead, today he was in therapy saying he wants to make things better???? And wants to attend therapy to heal himself and then wants therapy with me?? Go figure...what to think about this? i am being very careful not to jump to conclusions, just have a little glimmer of hope that he may start to peek out?
It is kind of weird; you get use to the replay activities and then they switch gears on you ::) I can deal with replay so long as there isn't an OW involved. Still a long way to go but I am hopeful that OW is gone for good. My H is in a weird place too. He is definitely noticing that I am not falling apart anymore, I think it kind of scares him.
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OW is not there. There must be a stage of MLC with no OP, and where does that fall in? Where does that leave the MLCer? more vulnerable, ready for another OP, trying to heal and come out of tunnel? It is interesting really, but so traumatic for us!
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OW is not there. There must be a stage of MLC with no OP, and where does that fall in? Where does that leave the MLCer? more vulnerable, ready for another OP, trying to heal and come out of tunnel? It is interesting really, but so traumatic for us!
At least for me having no OW on the scene is less destructive. Still makes it a difficult time as I watch H struggle and know that I can't do anything for him. He has been able to verbalize and share alot of what he is going through. He is very aware of the drepression but hasn't been able to figure the root cause of it. All I can do at this point is be there when he wants to talk and remain strong for both of us.
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Yes, and t mind yourself too. Being detached means you don't get as hurt as before or at least, you bounce back quicker...
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I would agree S4A. My H is in a weird place. yesterday I heard his feelings were dead, today he was in therapy saying he wants to make things better???? And wants to attend therapy to heal himself and then wants therapy with me?? Go figure...what to think about this? i am being very careful not to jump to conclusions, just have a little glimmer of hope that he may start to peek out?
It is kind of weird; you get use to the replay activities and then they switch gears on you ::) I can deal with replay so long as there isn't an OW involved. Still a long way to go but I am hopeful that OW is gone for good. My H is in a weird place too. He is definitely noticing that I am not falling apart anymore, I think it kind of scares him.
On the beginning MLC, MLCers gradually sink into chronic depression, how they progress they become angrier and angrier. We as spouses fallow them sinking into depression to, we do not notice that because it is slowly and gradually. People instinctively react on behavior of others. So, we backhand their anger to them. In time they start to blame us for their behavior. Like in war, is not important who start it if both sides doing bad things.
When they do BD we fall appart and they are on high narcissism on hormones of infatuation and adrenaline. MLCers wanna us see pathetic, worthless and weak, because they then can stay in REPLAY and blame us for their misery ! So, we have to work on self to back our balance, natural state, before our MLC spouse start with MLC and become even better then that. MLT is such a thing for improvement.
When they stuck as junkies in REPLAY in EA or PA, or both and they still are miserable and see us how we become stronger and better in time and they become weaker and worst they have to be concerned that they can lose us ! Otherwise if we stuck in own pit or tunnel we actually prolong their MLC !
So, that can push them into liminality. Our strength ! Also our unconditional love even in extreme situation. And they are incapable to love nobody !
I read on one site this: "Your MLC spouse will test You to the extreme limits !" Means how strong You are and do You really love them !
Also very important is that nobody can change nobody except in one case and that is: "If You change self to become better person, people around You will become better instinctively !"
But Buddha said: "You Can win a thousand times a thousand men in war, but Only that who conquers himself is the greatest warrior". Means it is hardest thing changing self to become better person.
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On the beginning MLC, MLCers gradually sink into chronic depression, how they progress they become angrier and angrier. We as spouses fallow them sinking into depression to, we do not notice that because it is slowly and gradually. People instinctively react on behavior of others. So, we backhand their anger to them. In time they start to blame us for their behavior. Like in war, is not important who start it if both sides doing bad things.
When they do BD we fall appart and they are on high narcissism on hormones of infatuation and hormones. MLCers wanna us see pathetic, worthless and weak, because they then can stay in REPLAY and blame us for they misery ! So, we have to work on self to back in our balance, natural state before our MLC spouse start with MLC and become even better then that. MLT is such a thing for improvement.
When they stuck as junkies in REPLAY in EA or PA, or both and they still are miserable and to see us how we become stronger and better in time and they become weaker and worst they have to be concerned that they can lose us !
So, that can push them into liminality. Our strength ! Also our unconditional love even in extreme situation. I read on one site this: "Your MLC spouse will test You to the extreme limits !" Means how strong You are and do You really love them !
Very interesting.............H said that the depression started when he realized how much he was hurting me. He pretty much fell apart when I told him that I was done with him. While we were talking about separating he was commenting on how I was so strong, wasn't I worried about things, I told him no I wasn't worried anymore, I couldn't control things and wasn't going to try to anymore. I have come to accept life for what it is. I told him that it has nothing to do with how I feel about him and everything to do with how I feel about myself. Maybe he is entering liminality :o
Thanks Albatross!
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Thank you Albatross, I like your answer. as we have similar timelines, I will let you know how this developes...it is becoming interesting, it is changing, from the plateau. It does not mean he will come back, but it means it is changing!
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Thank you Albatross, I like your answer. as we have similar timelines, I will let you know how this developes...it is becoming interesting, it is changing, from the plateau. It does not mean he will come back, but it means it is changing!
PatienceGalore,
I just realized that we have similiar BD's; mine was December 2012. Looking back I could see signs of MLC beginning a 1 -1 1/2 earlier.
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And I go to 2007!
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And I go to 2007!
It was so gradual that I had to really think back about it; I wonder if it could have been longer than 1 - 1 1/2 years.
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What IMO really scare my wife was that kids and myself actually CAN live and survive without her ! She as co-dependent wanna be very important and irreplaceable ! Control freak. When she was in deep overt depression she tell me in one occasion: "You don't need me anymore, now I can go..." But that was said on very sad and pathetic way. ;)
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What IMO really scare my wife was that kids and myself actually CAN live and survive without her ! She as co-dependent wanna be very important and irreplaceable ! Control freak. When she was in deep overt depression she tell me in one occasion: "You don't need me anymore, now I can go..." But that was said on very sad and pathetic way. ;)
I have had a similiar situation; H told me that I didn't need him for anything, in sad and pathetic tone also.
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My H is high energy replay, looking good, sounding good etc... He couldn't care less about me. Not a hint of anything positive towards me, all communication is simply nice monster or monster. Only ever communicate through email about the kids or legal process. It's excruciating.
Should I try and step up my communication in order to try and pave the way? He sees me once a week but rarely even looks at me. We have polite convo about kids school or health but nothing beyond that. H seems to hate me still, even after 18 months. If this was normal break up he would be over the hate and anger by now (that's assuming he had reason to hate me and be angry with me.)
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Jung often compares shadow and anima/animus with each other.
"The confrontation with the shadow is less difficult than the confrontation with the anima/animus."
"The shadow provokes fear; anima and animus arouse panic."
About Christiana Morgan, the patient discussed in the Vision Seminars, Jung gives the following ornate description:
“She is divorced from her shadow, and because of that her animus has married the shadow and gone to hell. For that gives the animus power to behave as he wants to behave ... If you want to control your anima or animus, you have to bring the shadow close to consciousness and so liberate it from anima of animus possession. If consciousness goes without a connection with the shadow, then violation of the blood occurs, that is, people live beyond their means, they live in an unnatural imaginary way, above their own heads […]”
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Not sure if already addressed.
Not to focus on OW.
At what point does MLCer realize OW is a bandaid and nothing more than a prop to get them through their journey. Is it when replay ends?
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Not sure if they ever realise OW/OM is just a prop... it is said when no OW/OM remains in the picture and have reached Liminality = overt depression that is no longer possible to mask with Replay behaviour, Replay is over. However OW/OM can stay around during Liminality but, and if I remember the articles right, the dinamics of the relationship will change.
How exactly does it change I do not know.
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Not sure if they ever realise OW/OM is just a prop... it is said when no OW/OM remains in the picture and have reached Liminality = overt depression that is no longer possible to mask with Replay behaviour, Replay is over. However OW/OM can stay around during Liminality but, and if I remember the articles right, the dinamics of the relationship will change.
How exactly does it change I do not know.
I am interested in this also. If OP remains in the picture when the Replayer hits liminality - surely they must then see that the person they got involved with, wasn't the real person after all???? How can they continue their relationship???
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Dynamics of relation change because "drug" does not work anymore. Or MLCer have more important inner things, doing self. Or it is just inertia, or he is nowhere OW relationship stall and he don't know what to do and he produce a lot damage to self, family spouse and kids. he do not know does spouse want him back, he do not know is it possible to bridge all crap what he done.
A lot things can be. Or all together what I wrote. He can also dump OW and escape & avoid more seeking something else for drug that can be OW.
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A lot things can be. Or all together what I wrote. He can also dump OW and escape & avoid more seeking something else for drug that can be OW.
Yep- I saw this happen...started a band We all wanna be a big rock star driving 15 cars..(or however that song goes) and the MONEY that was spent WOW. ANYTHING but taking a realistic look at the problem which is THEM..
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I WILL TRY TO CONNECT INDIVIDUATION PROCESS AND REPLAY
Individuation stages:
1. DISSOLUTION OF PERSONA
- PERSONA
2. DISSOLUTION OF THE ARCHETYPES
- SHADOW
- ANIMA / ANIMUS
As You can see MLCer have to deal with whole self ! And in this order:
- PERSONA
- EGO
- SHADOW
- ANIMA / ANIMUS
- SELF
As we possibly can trace them trough MLC stages map, I will try to trace my MLCer trough individuation map. Also I will try to make transparent whats going on in this CRUSADE ! xD
Majority of LBS's try to understand all crazy things what produce their MLCer. It is hard to understand motives or behavior someone who appears like crazy maniac which is total opposite what our spouse was before this madness.
Also process of individuation can be seen like this:
SELF - > INDIVIDUATED SELF
- Know your Self
- Love your Self
- Trust your Self
- Be your Self
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What if my MLC has been through the individuation process and he has followed his bliss and found himself and that is who he is right now? I have wondered that. He appears so successful and so pleased with where he is at right now.
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What if my MLC has been through the individuation process and he has followed his bliss and found himself and that is who he is right now? I have wondered that. He appears so successful and so pleased with where he is at right now.
I wonder that too.
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What if my MLC has been through the individuation process and he has followed his bliss and found himself and that is who he is right now? I have wondered that. He appears so successful and so pleased with where he is at right now.
I wonder that too.
That's the danger of placing too much hope on a return and not working enough on yourself. One ends up not only having their marriage blown up, but now has lost another 5-7 years of their life tied up in someone who hasn't come back.
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What if my MLC has been through the individuation process and he has followed his bliss and found himself and that is who he is right now? I have wondered that. He appears so successful and so pleased with where he is at right now.
Is he still in MLC ?
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Albatross, I think so? I think he's high energy replay but at the moment he is playing happy families with ow and my two kids every other weekend and generally a fabulous time. Best of all worlds. He hasn't crashed at all. He's had moments of high stress but masked it brilliantly in front of me.
Brave heart you are spot on. My friends told me of his brothers MLC and his wife, none years on has not moved on. She watched movies all about break ups that got back together and was convinced it would happen for her but it never has and my friend says it will never happen.
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This is what worries me. I'm trying to convince my mind that he won't be back so I am forced to go forward on my own.
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Listen to Albatross, he is right when he says, you have to "let go".
Let go of the worries
Let go of the questioning
Let go of the wondering
Let go of HIM
Let go and live your life as if he's never coming back. Detach from his craziness.
It took me over a year to really "let go" and just when I started to live MY life, thinking he'd never come back, tonight, after 2 1/2 years of being gone, he asked me if he could come back home when his lease is up, the end of October :o :o.
He wants to take me on a cruise during Christmas break :o
I was finally in a good place and I didn't expect him to come home, at least not any time soon and boom, here he comes.
We both know it will take some work, but we're both willing to give it a try.
I don't know what I would have done without the advice of this wonderful forum, so THANK YOU, to all of you who have helped me get through this.
Tonight, I am truly happy, for the first time, in a very long time.
Hope
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StillHoping,
Wow! That is such wonderful news. I am so happy for you and your H. I wish you all the best.
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How sweet of you to say that, TLZ, thank you so much :)
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Praying for you and your H Still Hoping.
Keep us informed as to your progress....we could all use a happy ending story!
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StillHoping - my prayers are with you and your husband. I am so happy to read your post. It was just the best thing to read. I wish you nothing but lots of love and laughter for this new journey.
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Of course your husband is still in MLC, TT. You are just trying to want him to crash way before he is ready for it. MLC can take many years and Replay can last a very long time.
Some of us know Jung, Albatross. ;) Probelm is, some of us, at least me, knows Jung enough to not to take all he said to the letter. Why? Decades have passed since Jung and his wife (anima/animus are his wife Emma work, not his), and they were mainly focused on the psychological aspect of things, not taking into consideration biological factors (those being hormonal, brain chemicals, or others).
Is is possible that what they were observing, and we also are, is a result of an hormonal and neurochemical imbalance that provokes psychological changes.
Yes, if OW/OM don't provide enough high and MLCer can found something to give them the high. Or can always have had something that provide the high. Mr J always had his clubbing/DJing to provide the high, OW is just an accessory but one who causes a lot of damages and is very expensive.
TT and Snowdrop you are wondering too much and taking Jung too the letter. Jung is fine but one should be a little cautions and not to simple eat all he has said/think.
Still, I doubt any of your husbands has reached the end of their crisis or is stuck in MLC. They have not been in crisis for that long.
A few MLCers never get out of MLC but that is rare. Some MLCer take more than 2,3,4, or even 7 years. More often than not it will be the LBS who will close the door.
Hope all goes well with you and your husband, StillHoping.
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Albatross,
Are you saying that just by taking the hostility out she started reconnecting with you? Did your wife have an 'awakening' of any kind?
I see that with my own H. Every time we have a serious issue and R talks with a whole lot of emotion my H regress, then he would process and we could build a friendship again, then another bump and regression again. Each time it gets shorter and shorter. He now will talk to me the next day after an incident but he avoids seeing me. Currently we are in that stage, the previous two weeks we had a great time talking and enjoying our time together. I do think having hostility around does play a major factor in how much they trust us. It isn't fair because they betrayed us but in order to rebuild and reconnect they do need to feel safe.
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Hi Albatross, I have a new thing said to me: my H told me his feelings were dead for me, I was obviously very shaken by that for a bit, then thought "Monster", Carzyjourney posted that that was the death of his Ego, I don't know if I quite understand what that means? Is it another break of himself? But if he does not recognise it, how does he use that to get better, or simply say, no feelings, so goodbye? i'm confused?
My H said to me once don't feed off my emotions because I don't have any - that was April of this year.
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On principle, yes, I agree that removing the hostility may work. But maybe only if they are ready for the next step? The less hostily I am with Mr J the more suspicious he becomes. He says I'm being too nice and having sugary talk, that he knows me and I'm not like that so I must be up to something.
I asked him if prefer me to be less kind to him, he said no. But he did not come forward. In fact, he trusted me far more early on. I guess me not allowing him to cake eat and not allow him to get his way on the divorce = he gets everything, I get nothing, does not help but no way I will allow him to get what is mine by law.
Maybe things are different if they are fighting us in court and have OW/OM who is pulling the strings to try to get all they can?...
Frankly, I have no idea what to do with mine so I do nothing. I have even completely stop to talk with him. Last times I did was because my lawyer asked me to. I also have nothing, except legal issues, to take care with mine. Maybe too much time went by and too much damage is still being done.
All I know is that not all MLCers react the same to lack of hostility, NC, and all the other things we are told that work. And that some MLCers, mine, Trustandlove, Trusting and others, need more than 6 or 7 years of Replay. So this MLC is not so black & white and even if there is a script it does not unfold the same way, or under the same situation, to everyone.
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I think removing the hostility serves more than one purpose though. Removing hostility and anger from our lives benefits us and is for us. They may be suspicious especially when we do it where it doesn't match up to us. I don't sound sugary by any means to my H he wouldn't trust it, but I do for the most part try to remove the hostility for me more than for him, I simply don't like the negativity. My H has come to trust me more, not enough to come home but I am still not labeled fun - he is still in that mode. He has however come a long way and is no longer not talking, and no longer knee deep into the drugs and alcohol - sober more than he is drunk these days.
I think each situation is different though and we should play it by ear knowing our spouses and what they are like. I still think that truth darts should be given, but they can occur in a non-hostile manner.
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What if my MLC has been through the individuation process and he has followed his bliss and found himself and that is who he is right now? I have wondered that. He appears so successful and so pleased with where he is at right now.
I wonder that too.
That's the danger of placing too much hope on a return and not working enough on yourself. One ends up not only having their marriage blown up, but now has lost another 5-7 years of their life tied up in someone who hasn't come back.
For me, "I wonder that too", was simply to say agreed, I would wonder that too, end of story. I do not give much thought to where H is or how he is, or where he is on his journey. I don't really care. Believe me, I am under no illusion of H ever returning. If you read my thread you will see. I do not focus on him, but my children and myself. For some people, maybe, but I don't think too much of my H outside of being on this board.
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TT and Snowdrop you are wondering too much and taking Jung too the letter. Jung is fine but one should be a little cautions and not to simple eat all he has said/think.
Still, I doubt any of your husbands has reached the end of their crisis or is stuck in MLC. They have not been in crisis for that long.
Hey Anjae :)
I was just reading the thread and commented on the one before mine, just the sentence. I have read nothing at all from Jung, ever, unless its been on this board and I didn't know about it :o There is no way I would ever think my husband is anywhere near to the end of his crisis. It really is new, and I live as if he has gone for good, as I feel he probably has. I would not sit and wait for the man he is now, and in fact, we are in a good place. I'm done and happy. That being said, I don't ever wonder if he will come home as I don't care, and in fact, don't want him here. If that changes in the future, we will deal with it then, but until if and when that happens, we are quite fine by ourselves. I don't wonder where he is on his journey, as that is his journey to make, not mine. He can do whatever he needs to do, and I will do the same. I've always felt we are in a relationship out of choice, and yet we are individuals who need to have our own life journey, as well as the one we had together. I would hope if it was me, he'd have left me to find my own answers, as I'm trying to leave him alone to find his own.
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Listen to Albatross, he is right when he says, you have to "let go".
Let go of the worries
Let go of the questioning
Let go of the wondering
Let go of HIM
Let go and live your life as if he's never coming back. Detach from his craziness.
It took me over a year to really "let go" and just when I started to live MY life, thinking he'd never come back, tonight, after 2 1/2 years of being gone, he asked me if he could come back home when his lease is up, the end of October :o :o.
He wants to take me on a cruise during Christmas break :o
I was finally in a good place and I didn't expect him to come home, at least not any time soon and boom, here he comes.
We both know it will take some work, but we're both willing to give it a try.
I don't know what I would have done without the advice of this wonderful forum, so THANK YOU, to all of you who have helped me get through this.
Tonight, I am truly happy, for the first time, in a very long time.
Hope
Stillhoping, really happy to see your post! Wishing you and your H all the best.
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Hi! Albatross,
Thank you for your posts! I really learn a lot .
I read from HB 's six stages of MLC , she said that the first sign of coming out of the tunnel was splitting , she can see flashes of old & flashes of teenage liked 3 faces of Eve. But I can see the teenage when my H regressed , when they regress , they are in Replay , is this correct ? I am a bit confuse .
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New thread REPLAY - #3 thread (http://mlcforum.theherosspouse.com/index.php?topic=4070.0).