Midlife Crisis: Support for Left Behind Spouses
Archives => Archived Topics => Topic started by: misdiz on September 23, 2013, 07:48:54 PM
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I wanted to share a story my friend is going through.
I've talked about her in the past so I'll give a quick recap, but I don't have the dates so bear with me:
First affair was caught when her son was 2 or 3. He moved out, went to MC and moved back in 6 months. Things were good.
Got pregnant with 2nd child. Daughter was 18 months when affair's #2,3 and possibly 4 was discovered. Affair #2 was with a complete wacko. My friend wanted to stand and work it out but he said it would be too difficult but wouldn't leave. Finally left after 9 months. Divorce was finalized 5 years later and he married wacko within 1 month.
It's been 6 years now and he left the wacko 7 months ago. It's been a LONG 6 years for my friend. The OW is truly every woman's worst fear. She is a manipulative, conniving, evil woman. She has done such horrible things to my friend, sued her from falling in her driveway,(which was probably on purpose) demanded that the kids refer to her as "mom". Pitted her daughter against her. Got the kids ears pierced without approval, died daughters hair and so on and so on. Too many things to list.
Needless to say, friends exH just came over for a family meeting with the 2 kids, (18 and 14 now) and my friend. He basically came clean about his whole life since leaving. Told all of them how he regrets every single decision he's made. Regrets every cheating on her, regrets leaving, regrets basically his whole life! It took 12 years but it finally came out!
He said his life with wacko was nothing but a huge mistake and now he is so stuck that he feels he has no choice but to go into hiding to protect them all from the evil woman. He told my friend how OW has been obsessed with her from day one! Was jealous of her, brought her up all the time. Blamed her for all their problems. Compared everything to her. Wouldn't work full time because she didn't work full time. He would explain that she couldn't work full time as she had 2 kids! The OW had no kids! Tried to basically have her life, including the kids! Actually told people that they where hers!
Well, now that he finally left her, OW has threatened all sorts of things. He now sees the damage she has done and is fearful that she will either continue with her manipulation of the daughter or worse. She will contest the divorce and the state they live in allows that. She will fight him until he is penniless. In the mean time, she has threatened to file abandonment charges if he doesn't give her all his money to keep her in the house. She wants the same as what my friend has gotten. He explained that he is paying CHILD SUPPORT but she won't hear of it. He's afraid for everyones safety.
It amazes me that he has told her(my friend) how much of an impact she actually had on this woman. She(OW) never had any peace in their entire time together. And, he, of course did cheat on this woman as well. He has realized now that it is he who has the problem. yes, he acknowledges that OW is a wacko, but that his cheating isn't about the women in his life, but about himself. He is in counseling now to try to find this all out.
I'm not sure if I would classify him (at least when this all started) as a MLC'er. But, honestly, the stages seem to be the same. He is deep in depression as to what he's done. He wants to vanish. To run away and not face his life anymore. He wants to just start over. He thinks if he leaves, eventually OW's obsession with him and his family will fade. I think it's much more than that. I think the OW is so obsessed with "winning" that she won't be able to give up. She has put her fists through glass windows, faked a heart attack, faked breast cancer, purposely runs out of gas to make him come rescue her. She will do anything to get him. And through this all, she blames my friend still to this day. Even though he left my friend for her, she never felt secure. She was always threatened by her.
I think this just speaks volumes for all of us. These OW/OM will never know peace. How can they?
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Thanks for sharing that Mizdiz.
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Wow that sounds like the wacko that my H is with. She announced to H that she had arranged for some biker friends of hers to harm me but called it off because she met our oldest son. Isn't she a hero she didn't allow it to happen? Never mind the sicko thought it, arranged it and all that.......oh well. I have made it very clear to her that my friends who are policemen and family of law enforcement officers know if anything happens to me they will come after her. H well he finds it sick but not enough to stop seeing her. H also can't figure out why she hates me so bad because I haven't done anything to her, oh yeah she gets mad because he won't be mean to me like she wants, nor will he file for divorce.
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Thanks for sharing this tonight Mizdiz. I really needed to hear it now. Hugs to you.
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After reminiscing a long while about my childhood, I have come to the conclusion that my father had a midlife crisis, too.
Cheated on my mother after 13 years, possibly cheated on her before and I was the one who found out about the affair. I had borrowed one of my father's jackets and found a note in it.
She knew I used to borrow that jacket as she saw me in it. She was, until then, a 'friend' of my father and us 3 kids had already met her.
So that was OW stunt #1
My father wouldn't see us unless she could join the party. Said we had to respect her as she was the woman he loved. I wonder where that actually came from, my father respects no-one!!!
We'll call that one stunt #2
One day, at a family gathering of my father's side, she bluntly confronted me and said in front of the entire family that if I were a daughter(she was 28 and no kids) she would not let me wear make-up (I was 15 at that point and only wore eye-liner), that it was wrong and that it made me look like a ow!!!!!
Stunt #4 alienate the kids and slag off the mother ( to be fair, my mother wasn't mother of the century!), but still!!!
She faked a pregnancy
Stunt#5
She was a rather attractive woman. She died of an anevrism age 30.
My father then moved onto woman #2 (whom he is still with now) who had a young child.
Now, she was actually on my side, adored me, said I was the daughter she'd always wanted, that I was beautiful and that my father owed me a lot!!
She knew he was abusive to me, she knew he'd left us in a very poor state, she knew he was an alcoholic, she knew he was a cheat, that he was selfish etc...
She is still with him now? WHY?!!!!!
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Oh, dear! I forgot about the woman between OW 1 and 2. Yes there were three I knew of.
How could I forget about that one? She gave birth to a half brother of mine I barely know! He is now 21!
My father was with her for about 6 months, left her pregnant. She is an idiot.
Getting pregnant only after a few months to a man who abused and abandoned 3 kids. And the best bit...
She knew all of that seeing as she was my then Step-father's sister....Get your head round that one!
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Misdiz, thanks for that! What a tale! And 12 years of crisis... I hope that is the outer limit time-wise!
Booboo, I can't even get my head round that last familial twist but it sounds BAD!
I don't hear of any bad behaviour or anything from the OW in my story - she keeps well apart (apart from apparent wish to meet S15 now), so it takes some convincing me to get to me that she is nothing but trouble. All I know that's negative about her, actually, came direct from H! I guess that's something. I'm sure I read here that someone described such H comments as 'gold dust' and I suppose they are, because they do point to him tiring of Tubscum eventually. He told me there were things about her he doesn't like. She flirts with other guys; she kept him waiting for ages; she was willing to leave her H and child to go see another man. Well, duh, yeah! ::)
What he likes about her is that she is a 'free spirit'. Oh wow. How exciting. That'll make up for all those other nasty habits over the long term, I'm sure. ;)
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WOW
I know the wack job the former mlcer I dealt with was a little over the top also..said she had cancer..played the victim..worshipped him but all to a bigger pcture than I saw.
I couldn't figure out what her angle was until I realized it was the Real Estate he had. He had no job or desire to have one. So when he told her he'd marry her she thought she was all set.
The girls may have played a part as they wouldn't even meet her. But he had a fight with her over what I think may have been spirituality and that ended the whole thing as she threw a fit when he wouldn't buy into her beliefs. Which I think included her psychic abilities and ESP etc..
Not much of psychic if you ask me -she never saw him coming. ::)
And yes he emailed me and said "what a beautiful spirit she had and he would always love her and had to "help" her" This was due to the dire straits she put HERSELF in due to selling her house in 9 days when he said he would marry her.
What idiot takes up with a married man after a 30 year relationship and 15 minutes later thinks everything is going to be bliss is beyond me.
They get involved for whatever reason and anyone who's a "wonderful person" wouldn't get involved with a married man PERIOD.
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thank you, misdiz, for sharing this.
husband told me on a couple of occasions, during his moments of clarity, that ow is obsessed with me, hates me and at the VERY least internet stalks me. i have noted many times over the past year and a half that her fb follows right behind mine as far as what she posts - similar profile pics (poses, b/w, colour), similar interests and likes (we are NOTHING alike....well, she has no personality so i guess it's easy to assimilate others'). you can be sure if i did something online, she's right behind me within hours. i was a bit shocked at first, then amused...but now? i find this disturbing because at this point, into our fourth year of this craziness, she has more to lose. crazy!
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Thanks for the insight, MisDiz. It is interesting to see/hear/read just how some of the OWs act regarding the LBS. All I know about H's OW is that she is pond scum. Period. I hope she is obsessed with trying to be better than me. She will not be able to attain that status. I don't ask any questions, so I don't know if they are even still "seeing" each other. She is his problem. Not mine.
Again, thanks for sharing.
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have noted many times over the past year and a half that her fb follows right behind mine as far as what she posts - similar profile pics (poses, b/w, colour), similar interests and likes (we are NOTHING alike....well, she has no personality so i guess it's easy to assimilate others').
I found this interesting as well. It reminded me that years ago, the wacko OW did change her hair to match my friend. Same color, same style. We thought it was weird at the time but I had forgotten about it. Just really shows the same pattern.
We tend to give the OP way too much power. WE truly do have the power! They will always live in our shadows! Always be one level below us and as much as they like to think they are better, these actions just show how untrue that is. They are insecure, scared horrible people and they know it! That's why they never have peace in their lives. Really makes me pity them. Feel sorry, NO, that will never happen. But I do pity them.
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I will admit that in the beginning, I gave OW way too much power. But I read RCR's articles, I read other's posts, and I decided that OW wasn't worth my time anymore. Sure, sometimes my mind wanders, but I remind myself that OW is H's problem, not mine. And I KNOW that I have the power here. H and I have a very long history together, as we have been friends since we were in elementary school. Our paths crossed numerous times as we were growing up. And now we have 13 married years and 14 years together total. We raised my two Ds and we raised his 2 Ss. OW won't have that kind of history with H. Her history will be full of infidelity, lies and deceit. H and I have many happy memories growing up, and many happy memories during our marriage. Those kinds of memories OW will not have. So I have quit giving her any power. She SHOULD be afraid of me. I AM the WIFE! She might have visions of marriage in her head, but H has to divorce me first, and my intuition tells me that isn't going to happen anytime soon. So, I have just stepped aside and let him live his fantasy life. She is digging her nails in and she is going to squeeze him for more. We shall see how the story unfolds. I need to pop more popcorn!! :D
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This was interesting to read - thanks for posting it!
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have noted many times over the past year and a half that her fb follows right behind mine as far as what she posts - similar profile pics (poses, b/w, colour), similar interests and likes (we are NOTHING alike....well, she has no personality so i guess it's easy to assimilate others').
I found this interesting as well. It reminded me that years ago, the wacko OW did change her hair to match my friend. Same color, same style. We thought it was weird at the time but I had forgotten about it. Just really shows the same pattern.
We tend to give the OP way too much power. WE truly do have the power! They will always live in our shadows! Always be one level below us and as much as they like to think they are better, these actions just show how untrue that is. They are insecure, scared horrible people and they know it! That's why they never have peace in their lives. Really makes me pity them. Feel sorry, NO, that will never happen. But I do pity them.
Thank you so much for sharing this story. I have struggled with the OW more than this entire MLC process. I know she is very threatened by me and I haven't even met her. LOL. I have a question for you. Does your friend consider herself a stander? Has she had other relationships? When her H came back recently, did he express that he may like to return to the marriage someday? I was just curious as to where your friend is in this journey. I agree that I would be a little worried especially if the wacko could get even more crazy if that is even humanly possible. LOL.
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I have a question for you. Does your friend consider herself a stander? Has she had other relationships? When her H came back recently, did he express that he may like to return to the marriage someday? I was just curious as to where your friend is in this journey.
No, she is not a stander. She stood through his first affair, and was willing to stand through the 2nd and 3rd one. He basically told her no. She waited I believe 2 years before she got into another relationship and I believe 4 years after she started the relationship she finally divorced. 6 years total. Her H would have never divorced it seems. She is still with the man she started with although with no intentions on getting married again.
Her H has never expressed an urge to return to the marriage and my friend would emphatically say no way even if he did. At least that's what she says now. She sees how utterly broken he is and has always been throughout his life. But she truly did feel a great amount of relief when he said those words to her. He has always said he was sorry but true remorse is only showing now. LOL, it only took 12 years but at least she got it.
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Misdiz, thanks for that! What a tale! And 12 years of crisis... I hope that is the outer limit time-wise!
Thanks for sharing, misdiz. Sad it may be for the lady who had a husband with a 12 years long MLC it makes me feel a little less on the club of those with spouses with gigantic long MLC.
We giving too much power to the other person is not a good idea but the other person does have a lot of power upon our MLCer while they are deep in crisis. That may be because the MLCer is totally blind to reality, because other person is too scared of the LBS and uses manipulative tactics or for any other reason but the fact is the other person pretty much rules our MLCers, or, at least, a part of what they do, they do it because the other person decide it should be done.
To be that is having power upon someone. However the other person has no power whatsoever upon the LBS.
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Kind of think Hs OW is a bit smug as she married h a couple of weeks after meeting. She "suggested" he join her on a trip, and they tied the knot.
Have no desire to learn anything about her. H had moved out and living alone for around 6 mths before they met, so according to him, it wasnt adultery as hed already "moved on". ::)
he lives with he, hundreds of miles away, so she married his lies and he can keep them up as no-one can confront him, they dont have a clue. he has ignored the kids, and now screaming that I am keeping them from him ::). That bothers me, but I know it isnt true so wont sweat it.
Desperate woman to meet and marry a guy within a few weeks, so they are a good match. H would have been mr. Bigshot flashing his cash, and a good "catch" for her I guess, but they ARE soulmates so meant to be.
Not bo thered what she thinks of me although this has me thinking. According to H, I would be a total b$tch, so she would believe that and instigate i am sure. Who knows.
Thinking today, if H saying he sees the kids when hes here to work, as a b.s. explanation about his lack of parenting, bet someone must have asked how come no pictures????
Whole MLC, OW, etc, the worst :(
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H had moved out and living alone for around 6 mths before they met, so according to him, it wasnt adultery as hed already "moved on". ::)
Guess what, even when they were already meeting OW for months before they left it is not adultery because they only start going public after the MLCer had left. ::) ::) ::)
Let your husband OW me smug. His problem. He married the woman in a rush, he is the one who has to deal with her.
It has never occurred to me to me to bother with what OW may, or may not think of me. That is her issue, not mine.
Of course you are keeping the kids from him. Have you not learned nothing, do you need to be sent back to MLC kindergarten Snowdrop? ;D ;D ;D It is all, all, the LBS fault. ::) ::) ::)
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Anjae
Thank you, that was my first smile since his new tirade over not seeing the kids and threatening that they WIIL SEE HIM! WHETHER THEY WANT TO OR NOT!!! His words.
Yes, me too, no desire to kNow anytthing about OW at all, and te fact that she exists doesnt even change my heartbeat. Told H when he informed us of their marriage that she means nothing to us, and she is simply that, someone he married. I actually feel sorry for her as she married a man who was telling so many lies, so Im sure he told her too.
been a few months now since they got together and he travels back and forth so I wouldimagine always in the honeymoon phase. Reading his angry email brought back memories plus relief that I dont have to deal with it anymore. Wonder if hes angry at OW now he doesnt have me to scream at.
They are a good match, Im sure, and perfect for each other. All I care about is that they leave us alone. my hats off to all LBS who have their MLC spouse living nearby. I dont know how they do it.
After months of being gone, I truly think H hates me, even now. Oh well, who cares ;)
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Ever hear the saying "What you think of me, is none of my business"?
So true. What anyone thinks of me has nothing to do with me, its their business.
Kind of like that.
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I have a question for you. Does your friend consider herself a stander? Has she had other relationships? When her H came back recently, did he express that he may like to return to the marriage someday? I was just curious as to where your friend is in this journey.
No, she is not a stander. She stood through his first affair, and was willing to stand through the 2nd and 3rd one. He basically told her no. She waited I believe 2 years before she got into another relationship and I believe 4 years after she started the relationship she finally divorced. 6 years total. Her H would have never divorced it seems. She is still with the man she started with although with no intentions on getting married again.
Her H has never expressed an urge to return to the marriage and my friend would emphatically say no way even if he did. At least that's what she says now. She sees how utterly broken he is and has always been throughout his life. But she truly did feel a great amount of relief when he said those words to her. He has always said he was sorry but true remorse is only showing now. LOL, it only took 12 years but at least she got it.
Thanks Misdiz. I was curious as to how your friend felt about it all. I am still way too early in the process to make any decisions, but it is helpful to hear about how others have handled their situations. I have also heard a story of another LBS who had been divorced from her H for 15 years before he expressed remorse. They are not reconnecting, but it was nice for her to hear that he is remorseful. Some days I wonder if my H will show remorse in the future. He is still too far in the tunnel to worry about that now though. Thanks for sharing with us.
Hugs.
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Ever hear the saying "What you think of me, is none of my business"?
So true. What anyone thinks of me has nothing to do with me, its their business.
Kind of like that.
I think you're wonderful, warm, funny , fantastic, amazing, courageous, gutsy and fabulous, SD :) :) :)
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Quote from: Snowdrop on September 24, 2013, 08:47:29 PM
Ever hear the saying "What you think of me, is none of my business"?
So true. What anyone thinks of me has nothing to do with me, its their business.
Kind of like that.
I think you're wonderful, warm, funny , fantastic, amazing, courageous, gutsy and fabulous, SD
Well thank you - same back atcha, sista!. Need to get my glasses as I'm sure I saw the word "slim" in there, oh and "youthful" too???? ;)
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Hi all.
A little update on my friends journey.
Her exH has really made the brake from the OW. He is getting his own place with 3 bedrooms to have a room for each of his kids. He called my friend to tell her and to tell her that he will need to be working more to pay for everything and to just bear with him.
But here's the kicker, he asked her if he could have a key to "her" house just in case. Now this was the family home that she still owns. She got her own mortgage for the house and it is strictly in her name.
A little timeline I have clarified with her: 2nd BD (the final one) was in 2001. That is when she found OW #2. He has been with her ever since. They divorced in 2006. He is showing all the true signs of MLC. He showed major depression recently and seems to be into acceptance. I told my friend that I think he is going to try to reconnect with her. We will see if I'm right.
We had a long discussion today about that and she can't honestly say no anymore. She doesn't think it would work but I have to say that she was't as firm in her decission as she was. She has been in a steady relationship since 2008 but she really isn't happy. So basically who knows.
I forsee her ex using the key to her house to get his way back into her life. I think he's going to make excuses to come there and she will come home from work and he will be there. I guess time will tell. I will keep you all updated as things happen.
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I wonder if it would be a relief for newcomers to have a thread where we can share details of ow relationship dynamics... so that others can see the similarities and PROOF that all is not loving and warm in the affair.....a thread much like our "crazy things my mlcer has said"
LettingGo suggested this on WithGodsHelp's thread. :)
I don't know much [I no longer care] but I remember a friend saying that if my h was out with his colleagues for a drink after work, ow would be texting constantly until he gave up & went home.
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Thanks , this would be very helpful as in my head I see it being all romantic and lovely .
Callan
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I don't know much [I no longer care] but I remember a friend saying that if my h was out with his colleagues for a drink after work, ow would be texting constantly until he gave up & went home.
Yep - seen this also - H was here yesterday and was harrassed non stop by OW texting constantly. Bit sad really....and he accuses me of being controlling ::)
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This thread is meant to help us understand exactly how ugly and self destructive the MLC affair really is....to confirm what RCR has written in the articles on the MLC affair.....ow/om means nothing....so that you can have HOPE enough in your heart to put the focus on yourself and thrive under heartbreaking circumstances.
Surely you can see that NO ONE in a healthy state of mind would live with or be involved with someone under the circumstances they describe....it makes no sense! MLCer and op are drawn to one another because they are both on the same wavelength....trust the process and put your marriage on the back burner for now.
For the record, the first time I got my husband to speak of ow I swear his eyes twinkled....he said "we have SO much in common!!" that was month two...month three I heard "our relationship is volatile" said with excitement....I guess the fights were horrible but making up was a blast! Five months in the bloom was off the rose and he told me "we're too much alike...and not in the good ways...."
Later I heard "we're both selfish...." and then "she's selfish...a liar...controlling...needy...too independent....doesn't need a man...too insecure...." and her insecurities caused him to MOVE IN WITH HER and sign a lease in a last ditch effort to make her happy and therefore the relationship good again (in his mind) but a month after he moved in with her he wanted out....reason?? "Because the reality of day to day living with someone kills the fantasy....bills to pay...people's habits..."
Just a few days ago he told me "she's such a liar!! She lies about everything....even stupid stuff there's no point in lying about" same $h!te, different day, LOL!!!
Now for my favorite anecdote....he dared to visit us on one of "her" weekends so she texted a picture of an allegedly used condom and told him she was with another man....THEN this fictional other man taunted my husband's manhood via text from HER PHONE until he couldn't take it any more so he told the kids he would be back in ten minutes and left. Ow lives three hours away. We never heard a word that weekend....just....no explanation at all!!
Make no mistake....the two of them together are responsible and they feed off of each other's drama so get out of the way and let the familiarity breed contempt!It's the worst reality show on earth! 8)
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LettingGo -
....and her insecurities caused him to MOVE IN WITH HER and sign a lease in a last ditch effort to make her happy and therefore the relationship good again (in his mind)
I suspect this is what has happened in my H's case. I remember asking him why he was involved with her - his response was 'Because she thinks I am so great'. So I asked him what she would think when his act stopped - no response.....
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Originally my H said what they had in common were their "mutual relationship problems" (you mean, the ones you are causing with the affair you are having? LOL). He cried at one point and said he just felt so alone, he needed anyone (other than me, of course). He said there was no future in it - but of course, that was about two years ago and they soldier on. He has had broken ribs, a damaged truck, and a fat lip consistent with the sort of volatile relationship with fights we are used to hearing about.
She told a mutual friend 3 years ago that she was just looking for a way away from her and her now xH's debts, and didn't want to work. After the affair was outed, she told this same friend, "I'm not a bad person, I just need to get my kids set up." I asked if she talked about loving my H, and she said his name never comes up, let alone emotions. ::)
They're both just users at this stage. She now has a mortgage in her name my H probably paid for. He still won't finish divorcing me. You figure it out, because I sure can't.
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I'm attaching to this thread because I need to read all the affair dynamics that gets posted here. I really can't add anything to this as I have no true knowledge of my exH's current relationship. I can say that the first OW was a manipulating, controlling, man "user".........her reputation. The second OW was an old high school classmate and seemed like a decent woman but my exH had later shared with me that their relationship couldn't work because of all HIS problems. .....besides the fact they lived over 3 hours apart. But now, with this new OW........other than her being 10 years older than my exH......I do not know anything about their relationship or what's going on. I know they have been together close to a year. I've only heard nice things about her from friends who worked with her. Nothing negative. So, I think this might be a different relationship and it might be working. Of course, I don't really know. It does concern me a bit since I do not hear or know of anything. I will say that I've seen a picture of them together (recently) and my exH doesn't look happy nor does he look healthy. The only time I talked to him about her was back in March and I expressed that I felt like he was only with her because he and her both were lonely. I believe he just couldn't find another OW so he hooked back up with her after he dumped her nearly two years ago (she was OW#3.....and now OW#4). I feel as if since they are still together that she is just so willing and needy of having him that she will be the "yes" dear type and not cause any friction or drama. She's just so happy to be attracted to a younger man. I wonder how much longer that will last.
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Great thread idea. RCR's articles are spot on.
It is as though the MLCers stop functioning except in the most prehistoric parts of their brain - it's all about survival and conquering (for the men) - with an overwhelming obsession to be with this other damaged person, and to 'save' them. It is NOT love. And it makes very little sense from the outside looking in.
It's all about how this other person makes them FEEL. It's all about the MLCer - he is not actually interested in this other person's needs - but he/she will bend over backwards to placate their demands because in turn, it means that they continue to FEEL good because of the fawning and narcissistic supply of this other person.
The drama fuels them both - we are an integral part of their drama triangle. Stay as far out of that triangle that they both want you to be in, as possible. Leave them alone to sink their own ship. It takes a long time, but it will happen.
Anything based on lies and betrayals is not destined to be healthy, ever.
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Read the articles....if ow isn't BPD before they get together, she sure as hell will turn into a controlling, fearful, needy shrew.....BECAUSE of the affair itself!! Read the articles.... 8)
P.S. He's just as bad.....but she's the one most likely to blow up his phone!! she sits around TERRIFIED that he is cheating on her with the wife!!! Just like WGH said.... ;)
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Thanks, Kikki and LettingGo. I sometimes forget these details. When I read this it all makes sense to me. I forgot about the lies and being deceitful......I feel pretty sure my exH has probably lied to this OW. My suspicions are that he never told her he was involved (romantically) with the OW#2......as he is still "friends" with her on FB. I'm guessing.......but I'm willing to bet he told the current OW that they were just highschool friends.....so.......he could keep her on his friends list. So, yes.........their relationship is built on rocky, sandy soil!!
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It's all about how this other person makes them FEEL. It's all about the MLCer - he is not actually interested in this other person's needs - but he/she will bend over backwards to placate their demands because in turn, it means that they continue to FEEL good because of the fawning and narcissistic supply of this other person.
This is it exactly! I got it right from the horses mouth it's about how these twisted women make them feel about themselves!
Meanwhile we know the TRUTH. We have history with them and they are trying to get away from that..start over.. clean slate... no mistakes.
Can anybody spell DELUDED? :o :o
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I forgot one of the most relevant details.
http://www.midlifecrisismarriageadvocate.com/mlc_shadow_tarnished-knight.html
The Knight in tarnished armour.
Their [hster & the dumsel] usernames online were Princess ___ & Sir ___ [both names from the Middle Ages]. This also reflects their positions at work: she was in a menial job, he was middle management. She is, according to him, a nice person who's had a really tough life--he definitely saw her as a damsel in distress who needed rescuing. How she managed for the 1st 49 years until she met him, no-one knows [oh yeah she was married twice before so more than 1 knight?]
You really cannot make this stuff up.
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Attatching to this thread because i definitely need to be reminded of how dis-eased the MLCer and OW are. I use to obsess about her all day and think everything was so loving and perfect, but now i know better. My husband doesn't talk about the OW at all occ. if I ask. Recently while we were out i asked him "do you ever think she maybe isn't as great as you think she is" He responded yes a lot....WTH. Just goes to show you they really do affair down,
My husband has be lying to her since he started up with her and I told her that now she has "trust issues"
Thank s again for the reminder!!
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Yeah- when the ex's blew up he emailed me and said something to the effect that what he thought was "love" had turned very cruel.
And that he had to admit she wasn't the person he thought she was and sadly "not screwed together" to tightly.
They were a perfect match.
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Awesome idea for this thread. Keep the stories flowing!
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Things my MLCer has said to me over the past few years about the OW -
she's so selfish, just like me
she's one of life's victims
Things between us are very tumultuous
all her family and everyone who surrounds her is (he shudders physically and makes an Ugggh! sound)
I've told her she can't be so negative all of the time - I told her she had to be more positive like you Kikki
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My H has been financially rescuing the other woman for quite some time. Now the funds have dried up. I sure hope their "love" dries up soon too. According to H, it's not his fault he fell in love with someone. He deserves to be happy...blah...blah...blah.
I guess that explains why he was calling escort services on his cell phone that's attached to the family cell phone plan- in the past couple of weeks.
Hit me with the 2 X 4 for even paying attention to who he's calling:)
Sounds like a match made in hell to me.
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Definitely damsel in distress h told me OW came from bad relationships and has been treated poorly. OW is h's assistant and his staff is just sick about the situation, yet h went around tring to get the female staff to be friends with OW.
I also received emails from h telling me to stop trying to sabatoge their relationship and building my troupes. :o. They are very insecure and I was doing nothing other then trying to survive those first months after BD.
Early on in the R h planned to take the kids to the farm and OW was not invited. OW spent the day pouting at work, I am sure he had to plan a getaway for them after. Now h and OW are inseparable, not sure how long this will last but I think OW is very needed. OW is expecting in a couple months ...adding a baby to the mix will not be a good thing for their R.
I don't talk about OW with h and won't listen to h talk about her. One thing he did mention is that OW supports him and his relationship with his kids, yet he has only taken D1 out once in almost a year...so much for support. ??? :o
Definitely not a healthy R but h won't admit other wise. I told him when he left that she better be worth it. He will fight to keep this R with OW not matter how bad. ::)
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Definitely not a healthy R but h won't admit other wise. I told him when he left that she better be worth it. He will fight to keep this R with OW not matter how bad. ::)
Well now the world would come to an end if he might have to admit he was wrong..right?? WOW...
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There is a lot of the affair dynamics in my old thread - The Love Correspondence Between a Husband and OW an Insight: http://mlcforum.theherosspouse.com/index.php?topic=1694.msg98405#msg98405
Sorry guys but this long down the line my mind no longer holds the stuff between Mr J and his OW. Or maybe I no longer want to deal with it...
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This is something I struggle with all the time.
OW1 was a woman who lived three hours away, straight with a husband and three kids... oh and she was CRAZY. Apparently my W bought her stuff all the time. She bought her s bracelet but OW1 was so flaky she never showed up and W never gave it to her. Things fell apart shortly after that.
OW2 is the woman my W was with when we met. They were together for about two years and I know I was the biggest reason they broke up. I'm not proud of it but we were in our twenties and I would never do it again. It was 15 years ago.
So, the three of us have an unpleasant history... and now we're in the middle of an unpleasant present.
She seems normal. The appropriate age, good job, stable, not crazy... the only thing I will say is I'm SURE the things they had issues with back then have not been "fixed". They don't think they need to do any work on their relationship. And she was in an on again off again relationship when she and my W started "talking." As a matter of fact she was at my W's birthday dinner with her then partner and she and my W were together by the end of that month. Oh and she's never wanted kids and now she's pretty much the step mom of our D4.
It's the usual, they are soulmates and she should have never left her for me. They're going to be together forever.
Sadly, it kind of looks that way from my view. Of course, I only see what she shows me and tells me but it's tough to see anything else. She NEVER talks about OW2 to me (except that they are meant to be). She never talked about OW1 either. She never talks to me about anything except logistics for D4. I think OW2 doesn't "allow" her to be around me more than 10 minutes at a time. At least that's what it seems like anyway.
I think without D4 she would have been a vanisher... but instead I get a front row seat of my D4 with OW2 and W playing happy family.
Any kind of glimpse that it's not what it appears to be would be so helpful right now. :)
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Attaching so I can be reassured of the idiocy and not doubt my own freaking sanity.
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Attaching... I also have nightmares, that things are rosy.
Ow had a terrible life, was my H secretary, he told me she has always been after him.
So much more for him to blame her for when the time comes.
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Attaching to understand how life is so much fun with OW!!! :o :o :o
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No clue, not one bit, but am interested to read possibilities of what life must be like in the luuuurrrrvvvv zone with the soul mates ::)
Get a bit of the sense that she's needy, she would have to be to meet and marry a stranger in the matter of weeks, but then again, they are a good match. Sometimes I think they are maybe soulmates after all, as she reflects the "man" H is now, so with that in mind, she's no great catch. Sad part is I feel sorry for them, and in a way, if they are happy, then so be it (did I just say that), because I know for sure, I don't want him around.
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I struggled to see how H's OW was an affair down initially. She is also a pilot, has a degree in human resources, seemed sweet and friendly (I knew her before), and is attractive with a great body. Really depressing actually!
Eventually H tells me that she has anxiety attacks because of what people think of her, her hair is falling out and she is a 'nanna' because she won't go out in public because she will be judged. Poor girl ::). Apparently she didn't like H being drunk because he was a little too honest about his feelings too.
When H and I started reconnecting after their break up, she turned up to a work function that he was at (and I was not) and slobbered all over my paraletic H - in public (chameleon!!) She then started saying that she was happy to go out and meet his family and properly integrate him.
In one of their breakups, H sent her a text telling her that although she tried hard, she was a hopeless pilot and no one wanted to fly with her, they only wanted to --ck her". She responded with "there's a few home truths in that"
I threw a wobbly in Sept because they wouldn't stop texting and then he seemed to turn to her. The next 6 weeks or so, they seemed to try to have a normal relationship but when I started throwing out a few crumbs, H seemed to change direction again. I don't really know what's going on now but I don't think she is seeing much of him because he spends most of his free time with us. She is moving away in 3 weeks so I will now wait to see if H thinks that his problems with move away with her - Interesting times ahead.
Overall, H is meaner to her than I ever thought he had the capacity to be. She is very much a damsel in distress and probably came on H's radar about 4 years ago when he had to drag her through her initial training with the company. She was a struggler then and he believed in her and had a great deal of patience. She tried to learn to ski behind our boat last summer too and she was by far, the most hopeless adult I have ever seen attempt it. Couldn't even grab the rope when it was delivered to her. No wonder no one wants to fly with her.
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Brilliant thread! I'm attached!
Yesterday, I happened to find (while snooping) H's pro/con list between me and OW. Yes, he really wrote one. And this is why I still love that idiot.
Anyway, the TOP of her con list was "overwhelming" which I'm pretty sure is her neediness. Se broke up with him right after my mom suddenly passed, last month, because he was spending too much time with me. Umm....you get we are still married and that mo mother was part of his life for 31 years, right? Talk about narcissistic! Next was "financial instability" which I found enlightening as I believe she makes a lot more than me. H said recently when were discussing finances that I don't really spend all that much. Yeah...more narcissism for OW. But her pro list included that she makes him feel "special/unique". Duh! That's the anatomy of an affair! And she plans fun outings. And walks in the park. Huh. That strongly resembles the marriage I used to have!
Compared to my cons which included emotional instability (gee, you're having an affair, my mom dies unexpectedly, my dad's dementia is worse than I thought, and you wonder why I might do things like adopt a new hobby of crying?) and "hair". Yes. Hair. He hates that I am at the age where the hair grown hormone is working over time on my chin. Well, so do I. And that, my love, is why I spend our money on electrolysis. Not for you (even though you probably think that's why) but because it makes me feel more feminine. Hey, at least my cons are pretty minor and fixable, right? What cracked me up the most was my first pro: hands. He's said for years my hands are "magic". :) Next was that we've had 25 good years. Guess he either forgot we've been married 26 or is discounting the last one. It certainly hasn't been very good! I was very annoyed that my cooking was not listed as a pro. It should have been. But maybe he forgot I do that extraordinarily well since I've dropped so much weight thanks to MLC diet. And though my weight loss was included, couldn't he have included the great sex that has, in part, accompanied the weight loss? Its infrequent, but still.. (Dripping sarcasm. I do know the sex wasn't mentioned due to overwhelming guilt).
OW is definitely a damsel in distress, and H got sucked in. He told me once, when he said she knew he needed to "kill" that relationship that he couldn't bring himself to since she has medical issues. I very politely reminded him that Ive suffered with MS for 18 years. But hey, I guess he's just used to my problems and the fact that I flatly refuse to let a disease define me.
Interestingly, he never defined their relationship as "soul mates". He was clear that he believes we can love more than one person in our lifetime (no kidding!). Ad he was getting irritated with her when she was pissed that he told her he still loves me (I admit it, I nearly cheered when I heard that one! Not just his admission of love but because he rubbed it in her face, even if It was inadvertent).
Nope. Things aren't paradise. He told me that last week, just before he decided he wants to be here (for now). At least he realizes that part of it. I take it as a step in the right direction!
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This one the ex had pulled out all the stops also..said she had cancer whatever she could do to keep him all to herself.
Then when the next sucker dumped her she tried to convince him she was PREGNANT! Yep-52 and your pregnant...I'm sure stranger things have happened..funny she never gave birth to a baby.
The word LIE should be both of thier middle names...
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Have you ladies read RCR on the Affair down and why is OW/OM and affair down even if they are rich, pretty, have degrees, you name it?
http://www.midlifecrisismarriageadvocate.com/standing-actions_dealing-with-infidelity_affair-down.html - Affair Down
http://www.midlifecrisismarriageadvocate.com/standing-actions_dealing-with-infidelity_affair-down-advantage.html - The Affair Down Alienator is an Advantage
http://www.midlifecrisismarriageadvocate.com/standing-actions_dealing-with-infidelity_what-makes-the-alienator-an-affair-down.html - What Makes the Alienator an Affair Down?
If not, read them. If so, re-read them. Lots of things will ring a bell.
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This thread is to support what RCR writes in the Affair Down sucked. ... they are brilliant!
Hmmmmm.... let's see....ow expected last year to be "her" Christmas because "she's entitled" and husband led her on to believe he would be there even though his Mother was cunning from out of state. ... grabbed, he did spend a few days before with her. ...to make up for not taKing care of her after her gallbladder surgery which he had promised to do....
First there was the surgery. ... then, her Mom was dying. ... them ow quit her job "because of you" .... husband calls her a complaint (pot, meet kettle!) And she complained about her job so much he said "quit then" so she did. .. and blames him! !!
If you saw strangers enmeshed this way you would want no part of it.... and you cannot reason with them about It... let God have it!
Night I commented "are you okay? You seem a little cranky. .." and he replied "I'm okay, but I AM cranky. ...I'm getting singer emotional blackmail Right now. .." oh...uhhhhhh....sorry?? If you will ZIP YOUR LIPS and stop being angry or bringing ow up you will take the target off your back and then the fun begins! !! It turns into a circular duRing squad if you aren't in the equation.
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Links to older threads:
http://mlcforum.theherosspouse.com/index.php?topic=1701.0
The alienator many questions contd
(some great information from Heartsblessing)
http://mlcforum.theherosspouse.com/index.php?topic=1593.0
The alienator many questions
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Thanks for the links, Anjae, I have read them but it was so helpful to read them again. I always learn something new or see something I overlooked the last time I read them.
I think the biggest thing is trusting the process and remembering that my W shows me what she wants me to see. Of course she's going to say they are happy and soul-mates. Why else would you be with someone? ;) and she has to justify it somehow. and she has to stick to her story of absolutely never wanting me again.
But I know better thanks to all those who have been here before me and also because our friends tell me their relationship is not easy.
I have unique doubt sometimes because she's someone from our past and I think maybe it will work since they've been together before. But that's precisely why it won't work. All that stuff that RCR says about the OW being paranoid and worried that the MLCer will go back home... this OW2 came with it.
My task is to stay above their drama. It's tough because of D4 but I'm managing.
Thinking of them just as you would a teenager helps so much. Think about how you look at a teenager when they're being overly dramatic and, well, acting like a teenager. You have this ability to stay above their drama and see the situation for what it really is and you do that knowing they can't see what you see because they have teenager vision.
That's what helps me when my imagination starts to run away with me. :)
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How long does it take for the true colours to come through? My H has been with OW for approx 15/16 months and has only just made the leap to live with her....makes me think they actually have something.
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Panda,
Please try not to worry - my H was with OW1 on and off for three years and then moved in with her. It fell apart very quickly. Seeing someone for day's out or occasionally is very different to the reality of living with each other.
In my opinion it's doomed to fail and look at it this way by living together it will just speed up the process.
Hugs.
X
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BN has been living with ST since July and the only crack I see is the irritating daughter so far. Having said that, I think their pride has a lot to do with it. After all, they have created all this chaos and upset, and to admit it hasn't had the desired affect only serves to send them even deeper into the depression or whatever.
There is also a lot of avoidance going on too. To be honest though I do not ask about their relationship at all, it's just glimpses I see.
It is hard to remember it isn't as rosy as we might envisage. ???
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W has had 2 PA that I know of, in both cases she is the pursuer,and ends up getting dumped. Aside from that there have been many male friends who were phone friends, maybe EA’s or even further potential PA.
PA1 was back in 2005 before I knew her antics were because she was in MLC. OM1 was just a guy she pick up in a club, one night stand, I busted them, W claimed she would end it but they carried on EA for some time. They started PA again in 2007 I detached but it seemed like I was letting them I have a free run. W said the PA started again because I accused her of PA so she said to herself if I’m being accused I may as well do it. She also said it continued because I didn’t seem to care. Now that I know about projection I can see this was all her BS and not my fault at all. That A ended because there is only so much sneaking around meeting up in hotel rooms you can do, and also OM couldnt be bothered to ***k her on the last occasion (sorry for strong language) so she dropped him as said she wanted her family back. I thought then her MLC was ending. She tried but her heart and soul wasn’t in it.
PA2 2013, W had distanced herself from me 2011, 2012 some of her antagonising antics towards me around the house were almost unbearable, like she was trying to drive me out. Enough was enough when I didn’t crack, she initiated a D, then she started going out a lot, all dressed, new clothes, new underwear, sex toys the whole works. It even came to her not coming home from work til late, when she did her mobile phone was going ping, ping, ping ping 24/7 all driving me crazy. So I snooped found out about OM2, he wasn’t a stranger, he was a friend of W best friend, but everything I saw made me think she’d found her soul mate, he was the type of older guy she went for before she met me. She was round at his everyday, and when she wasn’t she was on the phone constant. Loads of other pointers which made me think she had found true happiness.
However, things in La La land aren’t as rosie as we kid ourselves, yes our partner is out having se x with someone while we’re stuck at home, but in the end it aint all that. In this case (and I’m guessing here) W thought she had OM2 to herself and was in an exclusive relationship, but OM was still with his partner, in my snooping I found out loads bout OM, he weren’t all that at all, he was a definite affair down.
The A began to crumble when OM had given W a seeing too and then jetted off for a sunshine break with his partner and then posted their holiday picture all over FB. Soon after his return D12 overheard a heated conversation on the phone between W and OM, she had been played, lies and lies between them. Since then no going out at night, W comes straight from work, and the mobile phone is silent.
I guess want I wanted to say or show is that as hurtful as the A is it burns itself out, and will collapse under the weight of lies a deceit, this one lasted 9 months, painful for me to watch as we are in the same house. If you are in the middle of it all you just gotta hang tough and pray. (I prayed and next thing I know I was looking at pics on FB).
Geezz, I didn’t relise I wrote so much.
Lanzo
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Well apparently you need to get it all out somewhere! Geez!
The one he was in only lasted 4 months and it burned itself out. But he travels at the speed of light anyway.
Lanzo she hurt you emotionally as much as she can and now she's focused on money. Some women believe this is the ONLY way you can hurt a man.
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InIt.....your husband's ow was especially trashy....would you please elaborate some of the things she did/lies she told/fights they had as an EXAMPLE of what the affair is really like under the surface. I seem to remember she went to jail, right?? Didn't she also sell her home in record time in order to play the "I'm homeless so you will have to rescue me" card??
I suggested this thread so that us old timers with chatty husbands can SHARE the TRUTH about how the grass isn't green at all....especially on major family holidays, LOL!!!
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Just read my AUTOCORRECTED post from my phone last night....sounds like I was drunk, LOL!! Oh well....you get the picture!
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i love this thread! it really does help to see that our spouses really are in a crisis, and that their affair partner is only a symptom/extension of the crazy that they're working through.
for those of you with spouses moving in with the OP or are currently living with the OP, there is always the fear that they actually may have made their decision, found their mate...and so on. there is hope that their relationship will soon implode as now they have to deal with the reality that the fantasy isn't what they had imagined. unfortunately, while the cracks soon do appear, our spouses seem to put up with a whole lot of crap for a whole lot of time before making any moves to end it.
my H moved in with his ow, i think, quite soon after he left, at the very least 2.5 years ago. he has attempted to come home once, last christmas, but i am suspicious of his motives, although, to a degree, i do believe he tried to get away from her. this past september, he spent at least three nights in my home - he snuck in after we went to bed and then left very early before we woke up. he didn't do a great job hiding that fact but i never asked about it.
things i've heard during his time with his ow, whom he is still very much involved with: "i'm stuck", "it's not that she's crazy....it's just that....ugh, she's f$%^ing crazy", "she makes me feel good", "she worships me", "i think she just wants to be married", "if i do this, maybe she'll stop yelling at me", "she yells at me about everything. if i mention you or the house, she yells", "i'm stuck"(recurring). keeping in mind, i NEVER bring her up and this has been over the past 2.5 years that i've known about their relationship (they have likely been together 4+years). he doesn't talk about her at all anymore so it's hard to gauge where they are at currently. i can only assume that things are progressing for them, but it doesn't sound stable AT ALL. he's currently cycling towards us, but that's "expected" - sorry - as he has a history of yearly cycles that i've seemed to map out with fair accuracy. 'tis the season, and all. the feeling i have about this (and i do waffle, can't help it when things appear to be going well for him) is he feels he has nowhere else to go and that he can't be alone. i think he's putting his all into this (as much as he can) because he feels that's all he has since he's blown up everything else. he hasn't fully let me go, but i sense he's trying.
sad situation for everyone.
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OrionS - I'm very sorry - your W is creating a terrible mess, and living in the middle of it with your children is one of the hardest things to do.
No one is suggesting that we involve ourselves in the drama triangle. All advice here is to detach from that drama, and to protect yourself and your children as much as you can emotionally and financially.
Each situation is unique and only you (and maybe the advice of a lawyer so that you know where you stand) are able to make those decisions.
None of this is easy - MLCers detonate our marriages, family and lives that we created together.
LG's intent here was to shine a light on how things actually are in these MLC affairs - things are not what they seem.
What you need to do to protect yourself and your children is something else all together.
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Let's see...before H moved in with OW, their FB messages were full of lovey-dovey emoticons, I love you, you are my soul mate, it is fate, I want to spend the rest of my life with you....
H moved in with OW in early August. No matter where they are in public, she has a sour face, he never smiles, H never introduces her to people who come up to them...he talks like she is not next to him and she stands there like she does not belong.
When he comes here and telephones her to say he arrived, I see no smiling face on H, no kissy, kissy noises, no I love you's...nothing.
People that run into him say it is not the same man they knew. When he was telling friends of ours that we are going to live separately, I in Germany and he in the CZ Republic...he was asked if he has a new love interest. He looked like a deer in the headlights and never answered. Asked why he is moving...H replied he has more freedom in that country.
Before she grabbed my H, the OW was a friend. She was very independent, had her own business, handled her various animals (she has a farm), slaughtered her own geese...you get the picture.
NOW...she cannot do anything by herself. She cannot even bathe a dog without help.
One day my H was speaking to a friend and she came up crying that she can't handle "it" anymore....whatever the 'it' was I have no idea. Quickly he left the conversation to walk with OW back to their car.
I would love to post some of their FB messages (names hidden) before he moved in with OW.
One of them was from OW: I am afraid you will lie to me like you did to your wife.
H: Oh no....you are different. I will never lie to you.
And then there are a lot of these:
OW: Why didn't you call me...you could tell me you want to live your own life, was sure you want to live our life. I waited 2 years in all my problems (her marriage) for you, was sure you were right for me, waited then you got what you wanted, was lonely, believed that you want the same as what I want, to be the most important thing for each other, but it isn't true. I am ruined. Put all my energy to survive here so we can be together and have none left. Can't turn the course of my life around now. What I really want, from all my heart, is to be dead.
H never answered. The FB messages began the next day about a different topic...like what the weather is like.
NUTS!
He has never told me he is happier there. He has never told me he loves her, nor has he told anyone else. I think it was a place to escape to without any problems. I know he is not happy. I think even when things turn for the worse there, he will stay longer as he has lost the fire I used to see in him.
She is pulling the strings and he complies, then he must not think about anything and life is stress free..so he thinks.
I never talk about her or his life there. Only tell him to take care of himself, to make himself the priority and to be safe.
And we have an agreement...if he gets sick or injured, she is to call me.
He has lost weight (and did not need to) and looks drawn in the face. He tells me he is tired a lot. Between his depression and OW...he must be exhausted.
SSG
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StandingStrong, I commend you for your response to his crisis.... my husband says ow's is an escape, but it's hard to believe at this point because she's a full time job and emotionally blackmails him constantly to get her way, but as you said....he complies as part of their bargain, I suppose.
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When my H told me who the ow was, I laughed out loud. She is crap. She came to stay for the weekend four years ago (invited herself and her fiance). When she left our beautiful house and family, she returned to work saying: I want what H has ... And she has tried to get it!
My H left saying that OW 'gets me'. 'I follow my passions, and she is another passion.' 'I feel alive with her her. Everything is different. It is like a reformation of all my atoms. She is the polar opposite of you.'
Although he says: 'i'm not sure. I told her, I'm not sure.'
Seven months later: 'OW is so volatile. L1 is so kind, caring, calm.'
Ten months later, OW ends up in Casualty. My H has thrown her out of bed!
12 months later, OW has bitten my H.
In the meantime, OW is flirting all the time with other men at parties to keep my H's attention. She is terrified he will return to his wife and kids, and won't go thru with the D.
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StandingStrong, I commend you for your response to his crisis.... my husband says ow's is an escape, but it's hard to believe at this point because she's a full time job and emotionally blackmails him constantly to get her way, but as you said....he complies as part of their bargain, I suppose.
Letting Go - I believe that is the main pull between the two. I know for my H, she is an escape. OW is a full time job and with her crying and manipulating him...gets what she wants. I think it is an unspoken bargain. It is one I know he is not happy with. Perhaps it is the same with your H.
Somewhere I read on this forum, they realize at some point along the way, what a mess they made of their life and try to make it work with OW...but it doesn't. I am waiting for that to run its course. Wish I could be there to watch it all...like a fly on the wall. It will be quite a show when he opens his eyes.
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In the meantime, OW is flirting all the time with other men at parties to keep my H's attention. She is terrified he will return to his wife and kids, and won't go thru with the D.
My husbands OW is exactly the same...of course they are terrified of losing them. They cheated on their wives, they could very easily cheat on them or go back home. Mine does not want a divorce. Scary for the alienator...very scary.
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OMG Standing.... I hate that you're bd was recent. . But you will make it and get your desired outcome.. you have "All Th Right Stuff" ..... know that wHen he pressures fur divorce ir I s all her and give her the middle finger! ! They are glad when you politely say NO...SECURITY!!!
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“When someone seeks," said Siddhartha, "then it easily happens that his eyes see only the thing that he seeks, and he is able to find nothing, to take in nothing because he always thinks only about the thing he is seeking, because he has one goal, because he is obsessed with his goal. Seeking means: having a goal. But finding means: being free, being open, having no goal.”
― Hermann Hesse, Siddhartha
All is there. They compulsively wanna be happy. They are happiness pursuers - seekers. They are severely depressed and their life is firetrucked up. To live, they pursue happiness like drug addicts pursue "happiness" using drugs. They are severely unbalanced and unstable. They thinks that they have "nothing to lose", because they see own life as failure. And they are very afraid of getting old because their life already totally unworthy. So, what will be in the future ? Only can be worst. So, what a hell they "can lose" ? They chose to fallow their "dreams", in fact being totally selfish. They probably knows that they are destructive to self and family, but they do not care about self, why they then care about everyone else.
OW/OM are just their drugs.
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Taken from a text I found just before bomb drop:
H: 'You are undeniably and truly beautiful' yuk....remember this was early on before their PA was discovered.
OW: 'I am glad you still think that. I really worry that you wouldn't like me if you constantly had to see me with no make up on'
So what is she saying? Found this rather funny.
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“When someone seeks," said Siddhartha, "then it easily happens that his eyes see only the thing that he seeks, and he is able to find nothing, to take in nothing because he always thinks only about the thing he is seeking, because he has one goal, because he is obsessed with his goal. Seeking means: having a goal. But finding means: being free, being open, having no goal.”
― Hermann Hesse, Siddhartha
All is there. They compulsively wanna be happy. They are happiness pursuers - seekers. They are severely depressed and their life is f*cked up. To live, they pursue happiness like drug addicts pursue "happiness" using drugs. They are severely unbalanced and unstable. They thinks that they have "nothing to lose", because they see own life as failure. And they are very afraid of getting old because their life already totally unworthy. So, what will be in the future ? Only can be worst. So, what a hell they "can lose" ? They chose to fallow their "dreams", in fact being totally selfish. They probably knows that they are destructive to self and family, but they do not care about self, why they then care about everyone else.
OW/OM are just their drugs.
Thank you Albatross! This needs to be pounded into my head daily, for those moments I blame myself.
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I am in the unusual situation of being able to observe an affair in its dying days and a very high energy replay MLCer at work.
He's a colleague and has been a good friend for years, we chat a lot and socialise together as we share a lot of interestsand .20 months ago he was in a full PA with another woman at work. They used the toilets/offices etc for sex. He started to feel 'obliged' to sleep with her and thinking she would tell his wife, he admitted to the affair. His lovely wife kicked him out and now he lives in a tiny flat. Does have the kids a lot though
He tried to turn the affair into a relationship but couldn't make it work as everything reminded him if the kids and how much family meant. I've seen him cry at work lots about it.
He's slept with her a few times since. She's interesting to watch. She hates me chatting to him and cycles between ignoring me and fake smiles.
She often says to him 'why can't you just love me' and he sometimes succumbs as he says the sex is great. This week he has stopped replying to her texts. She immediately made a big thing of a date with someone else and then hounded my friend saying she will ruin him.
Tonight he went out with a 22 year old admin girl. I warned him it's going to be hard to avoid both ends of the building at work! He's admitted he's MLC. Real narcissist but lovely bloke to chat to, very open and easy to connect to. He dates a lot of women and has many female friends. Drinks a lot. Runs constantly and plays in a band. When he stops he becomes really depressed.
He's had an eating disorder and a friend die of OD.
We are analysing his issues as I learn more about MLC.
The key point is he has been begging his wife for forgiveness for the whole time and she will not entertain the idea.
I am in daily dialogue with him so if anyone wants insight into their mixed up brains I think he'd be happy to answer any questions.
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Have you ever asked him what he's running from or what he's afraid of or if he thinks he's missed something in his life?
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We were chatting about our childhoods last Sat while I was out of the house letting my H be alone with the kids.
He thinks he's a narcissist because his mum was in hospital a lot as a child. Every time she was home he craved attention and felt insecure like every time he saw her would be the last.
He dresses very young like a pop star and being 40 last year was hard for him.
His wife is really sensible and is a lecturer. She had no sympathy for his eating disorder before the affair. I think he just craved an emotional connection and has admitted it makes him feel attractive when he's successful with women. Also he told me on sat that his wife always made him use condoms.
I'll ask him what he's running from.
It's funny as we were at a work's do on Fri and he kept thinking OW would turn up. She went elsewhere with her dept and another man. I said ' let's try to just act like grown ups and stop this whole inner child attention seeking' he agreed and we had a really nice night chatting to all the staff. After I'd gone he hooked up with the 22 year old. It happens a lot. He feels sad going home on his own. When I'm with him he's more like his normal self.
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Arggh
Thanks for posting.... Did he ever talk about no longer feeling in love with his wife? I know he's been try to get back together with her but did he feel that he didn't love her?
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I'll ask.
I mentioned how I think of my H sexually more than ever at the moment and he says he doesn't think of his wife that way at all (she had a selfie of fb that was nice and he said how pretty she was once).
Maybe she became a mother figure to him? I sometimes think that about my marriage as my H's mum was inadequate :(
I've been thinking about this a lot and would like to point out that I worked in a different building to him before last year so didn't know him so well before his affair (but had seen his band and chatted a few times a year at parties and meetings). We became closer once H left me as he had been through it. I can see how easy it would be to form an EA/PA with them-they look to you for help and are vulnerable. I would never sleep with someone who has been with so many girls though, I know him too well!!!
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I'll ask.
I mentioned how I think of my H sexually more than ever at the moment and he says he doesn't think of his wife that way at all (she had a selfie of fb that was nice and he said how pretty she was once).
Maybe she became a mother figure to him? I sometimes think that about my marriage as my H's mum was inadequate :(
This is of great interest to me as i am the same way! My H sometimes seems pretty attracted to me, or at least complimentary but it is like he would prefer me to be his kids' mom and nothing else sometimes. Also, does he speak of anger towards his wife? Like he resents that she may be getting on with her own life?
Thanks for posting all this, very interesting insight.
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Somehow, talking about my friend distracts me temporarily from the stuff in my own life so here goes.
He texted me earlier that he was a perfect gent with the 22 year old. He realised immediately that she was too young-they went bowling and didn't sleep together-I got the wrong end of the stick.
Anyway, after work he texted again that he'd just had OW in his office crying (he feels guilty about breaking up her marriage) ended up sleeping with her again. I told him he is effing mental! He is cycling between a couple of women at the mo. Said I'd 'counsel' him tomorrow.
He rang me so I asked him does he still love his wife. The answer was yes. Regarding the sex he said it'd become more like comfortable companionship with her.
He fears being alone.
He knows he needs to sort himself out
He wants a proper relationship (but the women he goes for are as needy as him)
His wife hasn't filed so I said he shouldn't pursue her etc. he was really jealous when he found out his wife had condom wrapper in the bin! His motto is 'the grass is always greener'
She has stopped being so friendly and he definitely wants to connect with her more because of it.
I'm going to lend him Conway's book and see what he says.
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Hey Arghhh,
I have questions about your MLC friend, if that's OK?. Does he seem to have any confusion? I know he still loves his wife and my H does not "Love" me, or find me attractive, though I think he has flirted with me briefly once or twice. He loves his OW(26 yr old X-friend of mine...our hairdresser)......but I get the impression that he is definitely in control of that relationship. Though she still socializes with her friends, and does not see him every minute of the day. He is monogamous to OW, not like your friend.......does he say how superficial their relationship is, or if it is "love"......I still think that my H is infatuated as opposed to "in love". though that is not how he sees it.
Thanks,
CC
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Hi.
He said it felt like love at first but once the affair was exposed it didn't feel right. He's told her this a few times but she keeps seducing him again. The attraction is there but even going on a date to a cafe was weird for him-it's easier with alcohol involved.
He has thought a few times it would be easier to just give it a go properly again rather than have her cause trouble at work. He thinks if her more when she's not contacting her all the time and did feel jealous when she mentioned seeing another colleague
It's like a soap opera. Leave them to it and observe. If she's so young then he might get insecure about her going out without him eventually
X
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Hello Arghhh
Could you ask him, when he is alone...with his thoughts or physically alone, what goes through his head about his wife and their life together?
Also, when he is sexually with the OW or whatever girl is his flavor for the moment, what does the sex do for him...as opposed with his W. OK, that his wife wanted him to wear condoms is odd...unless W suspected he was always having affairs.
SSG
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Hi Argh, and everyone else.
I have a couple of friends in mlc, females. They too tell me a thing or 12 about how they feel, see the world with mlc eyes, and how they cannot relate to anyone....etc..
I had a crisis myself, a quarter life crisis laced with PTSD.
You won't get much sense out of these people. I would advise you to drop this case and focus on yourself. You can't counsel your friend, if anything, it might make him worse. And if you push too hard, you might end up being monstered at.
One of the female mlcer I know was all very nice at first with me, I pushed to understand what was going on in her head and why she acted to fecklessly, and yup I got evil monster and I even got death threats. Needless to say, we don't talk anymore. She hates me!
Still in crisis. I wasn't the only one who pushed, her h did as did her children. She has been in crisis 10 years now. Her monster began to show 5 years ago and is still here. She has no contact with her children.
My advice would be: let sleeping lions sleep and be very, very careful.
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I think sex with OW in General is just full of fireworks-maybe because they don't have to cook/clean/look after kids etc. I sometimes wonder if I was doing it right but I am not in a position to find out at the mo!
I'm going to try to talk about normal things with him for a bit. He does seem to enjoy my focus being on him (but is also a good listener to me) we validate each other I suppose.
As for time on his own, there really isn't much. He fills every minute with something (I see him on fb chatting to others, looking on YouTube, seeing friends, playing gigs etc)
I've never seen monster but can tell when he doesn't want to stop and chat by the way that he greets me in the morning. If I distance him for a few days he pursues me!
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Went to the cinema last night with my MLC friend. We chatted about work and kids and he said something like 'we managed not to talk about our relationships for a while!' After that, his women were pretty much all we talked about to be honest
It was nice to get out of the house but I want my old friend back who didn't think it was normal in one week to:
Sleep with exOW then wonder why she keeps texting
Arrange another friendly outing with 22 year old
See a woman from a dating website who has 4 kids, was abused by uncle and then family blame her for his suicide (she lives miles away but is really attached to him)
Get sexy texts from a girl in our other building he slept with last year a few times
And then tell me his wife has been warmer with him and admitted feeling sad recently to him.
I said. IF she ever takes you back, then how will she feel that you've been with all these women? No real reply.
It's definitely the sex-says I'm unusual in that I loved it for all these years with H
He'd go back though
He's nowhere near cooked and she'd be mad to have him
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I have been reading about the men who escape from their marriages through having an affair rather than just owning up to wanting to leave. The affair is their way out from what they think is a bad marriage and they use the affair because their thinking is the spouse will divorce them rather than divorcing their spouse. I know my MLC did this but almost everyone on this sites spouse did this too. Do you think that it's part of MLC or separate of MLC and that makes a difference to who comes home and who doesn't?
I would like to hear everyone's idea's behind the Runaway Affair
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Or you get the ones like my h who clearly forgot he was supposed to actually run away :o :o
Sd
X
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I don't think mine had a runaway affair, hoping I'd leave him, because he wanted to keep it a secret for as long as possible. He was in limbo I think, enjoying the cake eating and not wanting to pick. And even once the D was initiated by him almost a year after the affair was exposed, he kept delaying any court hearings (still not final after 3 years!). If he did want this to be an exit affair, he's done an awful job of it.
People use others for a lot of reasons. Do I think he's used the OW and vice versa, and that was the main motivation? Absolutely. Most who have run here have an alienator, and some come back, others don't. Even more LBS are probably responsible for closing the door when there's another person involved, and that's the reason there's no reconciliation. I personally don't think it can be used as a gauge.
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My husband was "kicked out " , and at the time I did not know there was an affair. He had threatened to leave for months , but never made a move . He swears ( for 19 month in entense therapy) that his affair "person" meant absolutely nothing .. nothing . Says no "addiction" or incredible need to be with her at all.. says he felt nothing for or about anything .. including her . He was attracted to the "feeling" he got for himself. Appreciated , admired , desired and that he was "ok" ( he was not OK anywhere else )He like the feeling of making her "happy " ( just by showing up apparently ) Would he have left "for " her ? Says he had no future plans , permanent ideas ..nothing. She made herself very very easy and available and he went for it . In his state of mind , she could have been anyone who showed an interest in him. She told him she loved him, invited him to move in and started to make future plans . He did none of it. He said , these "statements " from her started to hit home , wake him up and made him think WTF?. It was pressure to him. Sooo.. it is not the same as what I read about , no fabulous sex, no emotional connection, just another piece of evidence that he was crazy. He has been back in the house for 19 months .. still doing repair work. If he is to be believed , this has been his repeated story.
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I'm pretty sure in my case it was an exit affair. The ex didn't have a clue how to get out of the marriage so exow provided the way.
He insisted on the lawyer the next day. Threatened my life to get the money he wanted.
The divorce over with in 4 months. So was the affair.
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She told him she loved him, invited him to move in and started to make future plans . He did none of it. He said , these "statements " from her started to hit home , wake him up and made him think WTF?. It was pressure to him.
This is interesting. The om told my wife's BIL that he was buying a "log cabin in the woods", a longtime dream of hers. Her response was that she would rent the apartment they were living in if her bought the cabin. My BIL told me it seemed to surprise the om when she said that. And I've been told by several people that it seems like she was only with him because it gave her a place to stay. I hope it's true that the more plans the op makes the more the MLCer feels pressured.
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Hi UL
I am not sure what to believe anymore about my ex or anyone else's experience on this board. At the time of the affair my ex professed he had been unhappy for 13 years of our 14 year marriage - so at that time it may have been an exit affair. But a few months ago (8 months into his marriage to OW) he texted and said he regrets that we were not still together, that we had a good marriage and that there was only a very small thing in the end that wasn't working. To this day I do not know what that small thing was!!!! :o
Also my ex was having affair on his ow with many other women - so was he also trying to exit his relationship with her? In the end he married her and may or may not still be cheating on her.
I have come to realise we cannot put anything into a box - is it MLC is it an exit affair - I don't know. We tend to think that because "MLCers" show the same behaviour patterns that it points to or is evidence of MLC but maybe its just evidence of how people who are in affair behave whether they are in MLC or not. We just have to look at Brad Pitt to know his behaviour was exactly the same, he allowed the media to believe that it was because Jennifer didn't want babies that he left the marriage and even till a few months ago he was speaking out of turn about Jennifer. Was he also experiencing a MLC or is he just a man who fell in love with another woman and behaved in the same way than most of our ex's behaved????????? I think in the end it is indicative of someone that has very selfish tendencies and lacks empathy.
So is it abandonment or an exit affair who knows I think in the end we just have to accept that its happened (the cause does not matter) and what are we going to do to move on and live life as best we can. Easier said than done because I still struggle to make sense of things even though I know that you cannot make sense of something that lacks sense. I guess in the end we have to work on ourselves and ask what could we do differently going forward.
take care moment
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Easier said than done because I still struggle to make sense of things even though I know that you cannot make sense of something that lacks sense. I guess in the end we have to work on ourselves and ask what could we do differently going forward.
I think this is a key point. An exit affair wouldn't be so devastating because you would be able to look back and see that there were problems in the marriage. With MLC the LBS is usually clueless until the MLCer starts to change 1 to 2 years before BD and even the LBS doesn't think anything of it because they know they have a good marriage.
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I think we need to look at the broader picture and not just focus on the affair.
An exit affair is just that: I want out of the marriage, but I'm too much of a coward to say it.
An MLC affair is a symptom of something much, much larger. Even though they spout ILYBIMILWY and divorce becomes a very real part of our lives, the MLCer seems to take one of two paths: immediate or long and drawn out.
We need to step back from the affair and look at the whole of the behavior of the MLCer. Running down a mental checklist with mine, I've seen cake eating, monstering, touch & go's, wallowing, indecision, guilt, control, shark eyes, escape and avoid--pick a symptom, and he's exhibited it. Conversely, I've a friend whose wife was probably an exit affair. She treated him like crap, but he has never seen the kind of shi!t we go through beyond the affair and an occasional sense of entitlement on her part. Could be that she's female, but I don't think so.
I don't think we can predict which ones will try to come back and which ones won't. Often, as has been said many times, the final decision is left up to the LBS. Before we are faced with that, though, we need to do the mirror work and let go of the idea that they might come back.
What does OP tell us? Live our lives as though they won't come back.
It's the best piece of advice we receive, I think. Unfortunately, it's also one that I'm not certain we can really understand in the beginning.
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Hi UL
What does OP tell us? Live our lives as though they won't come back.
It's the best piece of advice we receive, I think. Unfortunately, it's also one that I'm not certain we can really understand in the beginning.
Two years ago I didn't want to believe this, but now I know, it is SO true.
In the UK we can wait 2 years from separation and then get a DIY divorce (this really only works when there are no children involved, and any finances are resolved amicably) it's also much cheaper than using lawyers. As my H has not filed, I am 'expecting' him to do this in October (2 yrs post leaving). Although he has exhibited many MLC symptoms, I believe if he does go this route he has clarity around the situation.
My H also kept OW secret, so I doubt an exit affair. He stayed with me 3 months post BD. I honestly believe he was feeling old and it was all too easy for him, she was young, living in our rental, he was working on the house....they fell in 'lurve' (ugh).
MLC or Exit affair - I don't think it makes a difference, we still feel like cr*p, but I appreciate the opportunity to discuss it. Exit affair certainly makes sense that they want us to do the D, that way they don't suffer any more guilt.
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From my perspective if anybody should have been looking to get out of that marriage it should have been me.
The ex had it pretty good as far as I'm concerned. All he did was piss and moan and complain about just about everything. Rant and rave or walk around in sullen silence.Run his mouth about all the $hit he was going to do and never did. A dreamer.
Make promises he didn't keep.
He was always right and could not entertain anyone elses ideas or thoughts about anything. If you agreed with him he was all set. If you didn't you better be prepared for a fight. It got easier just not to say anything. If I did have another way to look at something he's say " Who told you to think like that" Like I couldn't have an orginal thought. There was no negotiating or compromise.
Pre-divorce: His mother wanted to get a different car. He was looking at Lincoln's ::) Sure she could afford it but why would you guide her in that direction? :o The depreciation of a car like that is ridiculous.
I asked him that in front of her "Why would you point her in that direction?". He did change gears and get her an economical more easily afforded car.
Post Divorce: He found a gold Jag on craigs list and wanted to buy it and me to drive it. It was older and about 7 grand. I told him. "I'm not driving that ridiculous thing"
Not because it was older..it was just because I simply wasn't interested in getting a car that parts cost a fortune for. But I couldn't say that because he'd figure out a way to prove me wrong.
The things he did do were pretty half-assed at home. Then looked around for someone to blame. Which was usually me. He was enough to piss off the pope.
He had a guy throw a chisel at him at work one time. It stuck in a wooden cabinet right next to him.
The exow and him deserved each other.
I stayed mostly because of the kids.
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No run away affair or exit affair My X just wanted a D and his freedom. He never waivered or waited for me to D him.
It was all his idea and his doing.