Midlife Crisis: Support for Left Behind Spouses
Archives => Archived Topics => Topic started by: Albatross on September 30, 2013, 03:18:32 AM
-
Previous thread REPLAY - #2 thread (http://mlcforum.theherosspouse.com/index.php?topic=3993.0).
Generally MLC is long about 2 - 7 year in women and 2 - 9 years in men.
Anyway RCR wrote this:
"Separation of the persona from the ego is the outcome of Separation--the stage is the process of these two parts becoming separate. Once the persona and ego become separate, the midlifer enters Liminality."
Merger with the shadow: "As Jung knew from personal experience — one, three, seven years, more or less."
Question is if Merger with the shadow start in Liminality then Liminality and rebirth will last 2 -7 years in women and 2 -9 years in men.
We all know that REPLAY is longest phase in MLC. So, how I look at this is that in REPLAY phase start Merger with shadow. In further posts I will try to elaborate that.
-
Attaching. Great thread.
-
Me too, I've found this helpful
-
Albatross, I have witnessed both childlike behaviour and teenage behaviour from my H in Replay. I would be interested in hearing more on the separation/persona/ego if you have any further info.
-
I am echoing Panda, I would love more of that, as I see both an immature and mature person in my H, depending on the day. I am a bit confused by him, so I stay as far away as possible. Albatross, I took a cue from you, and I have created that safe zone, and H is very comfortable with that, and talks a lot more when we are together, which is very infrequent...but he recognises we do need to talk, so I leave it for him to initiate THAT conversation! He is seeing a therapist (same as mine) and some very interesting things have come out....he has huge resentment towards me, and that is why he had the affair. maybe he tried to punish me? Would that be something they do? he has acknowledged he never loved her, he loved the sex part (yeah...thanks, makes me feel so good about myself!!)
I am very interested in the ego explanations...
-
just attaching :)
31
-
he has huge resentment towards me, and that is why he had the affair. maybe he tried to punish me ? Would that be something they do? he has acknowledged he never loved her, he loved the sex part (yeah...thanks, makes me feel so good about myself!!) I am very interested in the ego explanations
All this rings true with my W, I too am looking for more insite into the mechanics of replay
Lanzo
-
Maddening, Lanzo, isn't it???
-
To pick from the old thread. Jojo, I don't sound, or am, sugary at all. My
husband is the one who thinks I was being such but I was not, I was only trying a new approach (I'm straightforward, blunt even so sugary would never do). I also was not going around things, somewhere in one of my threads I've wrote that talk, but, to him, somehow it sounded different and he was suspicious.
Still, it makes no difference, there does not seem to be a way of him to leave his addictions. In 15 days it will be 7 years since he left, by this point I no longer have any more time, or patience, for him. It is really going to have to be up to him go change, and, if he chooses to, to contact me. I may contact me if my lawyer truly wants me to but that will be it.
I think there is a big for LBS who have to deal with litigious divorces with their MLCer and for those who don't. Hostility is part of the whole court game/theatrics and of lawyers ways. It requires a lot to ignore it all and the best way is to not talk to the MLCer while such things are going on.
Snowdrop, this board/site is full of Jung. That is how I found the site. I was looking for MLC + Jung. RCR talks a lot about Jung, and others that follow Jung thought but with modifications, in the articles and blog posts.
My old threads have a lot of Jung and there were times when we seem to talk about nothing but Jung around here. :)
-
Anjae, thats a lot of jung ;)
So I've been reading it and didn't even really know? :o
Thanks.
-
"Identification with the self can manifest in two ways: the assimilation of the ego by the self, in which case the ego falls under the control of the unconscious; or the assimilation of the self to the ego, where the ego becomes overaccentuated. In both cases the result is inflation, with disturbances in adaptation."
"In the first case, reality has to be protected against an archaic . . . dream-state; in the second, room must be made for the dream at the expense of the world of consciousness. In the first case, mobilization of all the virtues is indicated; in the second, the presumption of the ego can only be damped down by moral defeat."
"An inflated consciousness is always egocentric and conscious of nothing but its own existence. It is incapable of learning from the past, incapable of understanding contemporary events, and incapable of drawing right conclusions about the future. It is hypnotized by itself and therefore cannot be argued with. It inevitably dooms itself to calamities that must strike it dead. Paradoxically enough, inflation is a regression of consciousness into unconsciousness. This always happens when consciousness takes too many unconscious contents upon itself and loses the faculty of discrimination, the sine qua non of all consciousness."
Let's discuss.
-
"An inflated consciousness is always egocentric and conscious of nothing but its own existence. It is incapable of learning from the past, incapable of understanding contemporary events, and incapable of drawing right conclusions about the future". That would sum up my H at the moment....he just doesn't get it, doesn't get what he has done and the implications of his actions!
-
"Identification with the self can manifest in two ways: the assimilation of the ego by the self, in which case the ego falls under the control of the unconscious; or the assimilation of the self to the ego, where the ego becomes overaccentuated. In both cases the result is inflation, with disturbances in adaptation."
"In the first case, reality has to be protected against an archaic . . . dream-state; in the second, room must be made for the dream at the expense of the world of consciousness. In the first case, mobilization of all the virtues is indicated; in the second, the presumption of the ego can only be damped down by moral defeat."
"An inflated consciousness is always egocentric and conscious of nothing but its own existence. It is incapable of learning from the past, incapable of understanding contemporary events, and incapable of drawing right conclusions about the future. It is hypnotized by itself and therefore cannot be argued with. It inevitably dooms itself to calamities that must strike it dead. Paradoxically enough, inflation is a regression of consciousness into unconsciousness. This always happens when consciousness takes too many unconscious contents upon itself and loses the faculty of discrimination, the sine qua non of all consciousness."
Let's discuss.
Sorry but this will need to be dumbed down a little bit more and explained.
Lanzo
-
The way I see it in Replay it is not so much that a merge with Shadow starts but that the Shadow rules in complete imbalance. Of course there are some periods of Replay that may not be Shadow ruled (brief ones, mostly and usually at the beginning and end of Replay) but Replay is the real of the Shadow on its splendour (and horror).
Good grief, a MLC lasts, on average, 3-7 years, with some being shorter and others longer, if one has 2-7 years/2-9 years of Liminality one may spend the whole rest of a person's adult life in MLC. Lets not forget replay lasts many, many years.
But I agree that at least 2 years are needed for a person to become something similar to their former self.
Yes, Jung knew from his own experience how things worked. He has also never returned to the man he was before and I would be careful to say he become a better, more complete man after his MLC. He starting having a mistress before and he never stop having one until he died. True, his wife seem to be fine with it, after all it has been a marriage for money and status (for him) and not being single for her, it was the early 20th century and social of the time upper class were different from our ones. It was normal, expected, even, for a man to have a mistress and no one thought a thing of it.
So, maybe we should have some caution with Jung and how he come to his theories (some of wish where not his but his wife or his Mistress's ones).
"An inflated consciousness is always egocentric and conscious of nothing but its own existence. It is incapable of learning from the past, incapable of understanding contemporary events, and incapable of drawing right conclusions about the future. It is hypnotized by itself and therefore cannot be argued with. It inevitably dooms itself to calamities that must strike it dead. Paradoxically enough, inflation is a regression of consciousness into unconsciousness. This always happens when consciousness takes too many unconscious contents upon itself and loses the faculty of discrimination, the sine qua non of all consciousness."
Was Jung taking about himself and how he had not learned with the past, namely, only thinking of himself and never let go of a mistress? ::) ::) ::) It is a rhetoric question, he was, he used his own experience. For the record, I quite like Jung theories but I think he used some to give a free pass to his own bad behaviour.
Anjae, thats a lot of jung ;)
So I've been reading it and didn't even really know? :o
It is. :) Yes. ;D ;D ;D
-
Just attaching to your thread :)
-
Good grief, a MLC lasts, on average, 3-7 years, with some being shorter and others longer, if one has 2-7 years/2-9 years of Liminality one may spend the whole rest of a person's adult life in MLC. Lets not forget replay lasts many, many years.
But I agree that at least 2 years are needed for a person to become something similar to their former self.
As Jung said 2-7 years is Shadow - Ego merger. If Shadow merger starting in Liminality then Liminality and Rebirth should be as separate phases in sum 2 - 7 years. As whole MLC process is 2-7 years in women and 2 - 9 years in men that by simple calculation Whole MLC be much, much, much longer. So, I suppose that Shadow - Ego merger should start before Liminality. REPLAY as longest and most painful stage is pretty unknown what really happening there.
-
Anjae, thats a lot of jung
So I've been reading it and didn't even really know?
It is. Yes.
I find it really hard to understand :o, so sit in awe of you all who can. I need to take it apart bit by bit then I get lost. Interesting for sure. Love it.
-
Snowdrop, you and me both. I read it n think, ok I get that, then I think what was that again? Then I re read and go: gobbledygook!!! And then bits make sense... I love it though!
-
It's a bit too much for my brain to cope with at the moment!
-
REPLAY as longest and most painful stage is pretty unknown what really happening there.
2-10 years for men may be more accurate. At least my life experience and the stories on this board point to that.
Well, I don't Jung to the letter. Prefer to observe real life and what unfolds here on the board. I use him as a guide but add, or remove, according to personal experience.
Shadow is always present in Replay. Ego, or an out of control ego, is also present in Replay. What is not present in Replay is the full self. Let alone a Rebirth self. And Rebirth is still one stage short to Reintegration.
We know quite a lot of what goes on in Replay. We've seen it in our MLCer, in MLCer we know. We have listen to them, heard them say the weirds things, there is a lot written on the articles and blog posts here on the site about Replay.
We also have the testimonies of former MLCer to go by. I think we know less about what leads to Replay and what really happens after Replay.
And, of course, we do not have any neurochemical or hormonal tests to compare the alterations inside our MLCers. We do not know what parts of the brain are affected in each stage, how or how much. Nor what happens to their hormones.
Something happens, that much we know.
Snowdrop and Patience, some of us had previous knowledge of Jung. Still, I knew a lot about his ideas/theories, I knew about self, persona, shadow, ego, rebirth, reintegration but could not put the theory I had study to what was happening in reality.
Jung never uses the term Midlife Crisis. It was first used in 1965 by Elliott Jacques. Jung talks about what we know call Midlife Crisis but it is all about the transformation of the self and so on.
Then, with time, some of us start to get into neuroscience, mental health, hormones, to want to know what was going on with our MLCer during the crisis. We took to read a lot, to take courses (mainly on Coursera - no the courses are not about MLC, they deal with how alterations in the brain, hormones, genes can affect behaviour etc.) and we start to understand more about the whole thing.
But I most tell you that all the intellectual knowledge does not change a bit what we feel or our will to reconcile or not reconcile. Feelings and intellectual knowledge some how don't go hand in hand.
Of course it helps us on the detachment from but not necessarily on the "I want them back" one.
-
Nicely written, Anjae.
PS I got lost on paragraph 3 ;D, but caught up in the end ;)
-
Jung never uses the term Midlife Crisis. It was first used in 1965 by Elliott Jacques. Jung talks about what we know call Midlife Crisis but it is all about the transformation of the self and so on.
Yes, Jung did not make title as MLC per se. But, he use ancient Greek theory Enantiodromia. Using it in psychology.
Literally, "running counter to," referring to the emergence of the unconscious opposite in the course of time."
That happens in MLC, they regress in time inwardly despite they are in middle age.
This characteristic phenomenon practically always occurs when an extreme, one-sided tendency dominates conscious life; in time an equally powerful counterposition is built up, which first inhibits the conscious performance and subsequently breaks through the conscious control. [Definitions," ibid., par. 709.]
In time... Means unconscious imminently have to be released. Person become unaccountable.
Enantiodromia is typically experienced in conjunction with symptoms associated with acute neurosis, and often foreshadows a rebirth of the personality.
Acute neurosis is even more powerful then severe depression.
The grand plan on which the unconscious life of the psyche is constructed is so inaccessible to our understanding that we can never know what evil may not be necessary in order to produce good by enantiodromia, and what good may very possibly lead to evil.[The Phenomenology of the Spirit in Fairytales," CW 9i, par. 397.]
-
In middle life is that, quite often, a chronic enantiodromia takes place.
When that moment comes, the change takes place. You have disposable libido, available libido, and where does it go? It goes over there to the twinkle-twinkle side, and Papa begins to see the little girls. Then everybody asks, “What has happened to Daddy?” This is the normal phenomenon of the nervous breakdown in late middle age.
… almost everyone faces this kind of crisis. The problem is, when this enantiodromia comes, are you going to be able to absorb and integrate the other factor, the other side of your personality?
In any case, it is a fact that consciousness heightened by a necessary one-sidedness gets so far out of touch with the archetypes that a breakdown follows. Long before the actual catastrophe, the signs of error announce themselves as absence of instinct, nervousness, disorientation, and entanglement in impossible situations and problems. When the physician comes to investigate, he finds an unconscious which is in complete rebellion against the values of the conscious, and which therefore cannot possibly be assimilated to the conscious, while the reverse, of course, is altogether out of the question.
Dark side - shadow is energy resource, shadow was build up a years as opposite of conscious. If person was one sided and not aware of own shadow and he is literally "good guy" not individual, means do what parents and society wants from him he build up his light side to much. Big light side have big shadow. Imagine it as seesaw, in one moment of time when light side is huge and shadow is also huge, seesaw brake.
-
Albatross, that is a lot of good explanations. I need to read over that again.
Anjae, thanks for the vote of confidence.
I'm still reading on the ego part of a person, shadows, etc...funny, but narcissistic tendencies have started to emerge in my H, is that normal, that different parts of the personality which may have been hidden are coming out? Is that still in the Replay stage? I am dealing with a, wait for it: narcissistic conflict avoider people pleaser (straight from the therapist's mouth!) who blames all his problems and unhappiness on me in out marriage! How on earth do I handle that one???
-
Albatross, that is a lot of good explanations. I need to read over that again.
Anjae, thanks for the vote of confidence.
I'm still reading on the ego part of a person, shadows, etc...funny, but narcissistic tendencies have started to emerge in my H, is that normal, that different parts of the personality which may have been hidden are coming out? Is that still in the Replay stage? I am dealing with a, wait for it: narcissistic conflict avoider people pleaser (straight from the therapist's mouth!) who blames all his problems and unhappiness on me in out marriage! How on earth do I handle that one???
You cant handle anything my friend. ;) He have to do by him self. Also time will do it. You should work on self. That is mantra for LBS's.
-
Hi, I am! Doing lots for me, just now that I know what type of personality he is, I will be more mindful of how I speak with him, so as not to antagonise more!
Thanks for the response, albatross....
-
To pick from the old thread. Jojo, I don't sound, or am, sugary at all. My husband is the one who thinks I was being such but I was not, I was only trying a new approach (I'm straightforward, blunt even so sugary would never do). I also was not going around things, somewhere in one of my threads I've wrote that talk, but, to him, somehow it sounded different and he was suspicious.
Heck we could blink and they would be suspicious - I think it is the paranoia part of MLC. Its why they become secretive and distancing.
-
Heck we could blink and they would be suspicious - I think it is the paranoia part of MLC. Its why they become secretive and distancing.
Yep, we could blink and they would be suspicious. Think you're right, it is the paranoia part of MLC. Early on Mr J was not secretive (apart from had start the affair with OW1 behind my back). I knew where he live, he would told where he was going to be (so that I did not come across him and OW1), he told me when he moved to another rented room.
But since summer 2008 the man become the King of secretive. I do know where he lives and what he does and that there is OW2 but not because he has told me. He is being so secretive that he is even given the court a fake address from a county where he does live in. Phew... MLCers... ::) ::) ::)
Even if I would love to know how does secretive match leading a very public life, appearing in press interviews and so on. Guess he did not thought of it? Maybe he is trying to impress me with his new "famous" life? If the last, he failed. ;D ;D ;D
-
Anjae, how do you stand being treated so appallingly? I admire your strength. I find it hard just knowing H does not know if he loves me enough to come home, what he wants to do, and his total lack of empathy and kindness towards me. how do you do it?
-
I don't stand it. I have moved back to our home town over 6 years ago. In all that time I only saw Mr J briefly twice, in social events, the last one May 2008. I have not seen him in many years.
Oh, my dear, he left 7 years ago (minus 13 days), I'm more than used to the fact he has no empathy or kindness towards me. But he had become a vanisher so I don't have to deal with him. It is much easy when they are not around us.
He is just a memory of the past and sometimes I even forget he has existed.
-
I am very sorry to hear that, it is so sad. I admire your strength.
-
Thank you for your kindness, Patience.
-
According RCR article (http://www.midlifecrisismarriageadvocate.com/mlc_overview_depression.html) that You can find everywhere about depression. Serious disorders can be present.
Anyway depression is just reaction as MLCer disconnecting from world because his personality does not work anymore. His coping strategy external life does not work anymore.
Because his current coping life strategies wont work anymore he start to use maladaptive coping strategies. While adaptive coping methods improve functioning, a maladaptive coping technique will just reduce symptoms while maintaining and strengthening the disorder. Maladaptive techniques are more effective in the short term rather than long term coping process.
Negative techniques (maladaptive coping or non-coping)
Dissociation is the ability of the mind to separate and compartmentalize thoughts, memories, and emotions. This is often associated with Post Traumatic Stress Syndrome.
Sensitization is when a person seeks to learn about, rehearse, and/or anticipate fearful events in a protective effort to prevent these events from occurring in the first place.
Safety behaviors are demonstrated when individuals with anxiety disorders come to rely on something, or someone, as a means of coping with their excessive anxiety.
Anxious avoidance is when a person avoids anxiety provoking situations by all means. This is the most common strategy.
Escape is closely related to avoidance. (SOUND FAMILIAR FROM RCR MLC MAP ?This technique is often demonstrated by people who experience panic attacks or have phobias. These people want to flee the situation at the first sign of anxiety. [18]
So, that push him even deeper into depression, his depression become neurosis, then acute neurosis.
NEUROSIS:
According to C. George Boeree, professor emeritus at Shippensburg University, effects of neurosis can involve:
...anxiety, sadness or depression, anger, irritability, mental confusion, low sense of self-worth, etc., behavioral symptoms such as phobic avoidance, vigilance, impulsive and compulsive acts, lethargy, etc., cognitive problems such as unpleasant or disturbing thoughts, repetition of thoughts and obsession, habitual fantasizing, negativity and cynicism, etc. Interpersonally, neurosis involves dependency, aggressiveness, perfectionism, schizoid isolation, socio-culturally inappropriate behaviors, etc.[7]"
There are many forms of neurosis: obsessive–compulsive disorder, anxiety neurosis, hysteria.
Psychoanalytical theory
As an illness, neurosis represents a variety of mental disorders in which emotional distress or unconscious conflict is expressed through various physical, physiological, and mental disturbances, which may include physical symptoms (e.g., hysteria). The definitive symptom is anxieties. Neurotic tendencies are common and may manifest themselves as depression, acute or chronic anxiety, obsessive–compulsive tendencies, specific phobias, such as social phobia, arachnophobia or any number of other phobias, and some personality disorders: paranoid, schizotypal, borderline, histrionic, avoidant, dependent and obsessive–compulsive. (RING A BELL ? LBS ask self a lot why they MLCers behave as PD people ?It has perhaps been most simply defined as a "poor ability to adapt to one's environment, an inability to change one's life patterns, and the inability to develop a richer, more complex, more satisfying personality."
Starting neurosis, depression spiral accelerate. Activate now NEUROTIC DEFENSE MECHANISMS instead mature defenses mechanisms which person normally use it before.
The Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders (DSM-IV) published by the American Psychiatric Association (1994) includes a tentative diagnostic axis for defense mechanisms.[17] This classification is largely based on Vaillant's hierarchical view of defenses, but has some modifications. Examples include: denial, fantasy, rationalization, regression, isolation, projection, and displacement.
Vaillant's levels are:
Level I - pathological defences (psychotic denial, delusional projection)
Level II - immature defences (fantasy, projection, passive aggression, acting out)
Level III - neurotic defences (intellectualization, reaction formation, dissociation, displacement, repression)
Level IV - mature defences (humour, sublimation, suppression, altruism, anticipation)
Level 3: Neurotic
These mechanisms are considered neurotic, but fairly common in adults. Such defences have short-term advantages in coping, but can often cause long-term problems in relationships, work and in enjoying life when used as one's primary style of coping with the world.
They include:
Displacement: Defence mechanism that shifts sexual or aggressive impulses to a more acceptable or less threatening target; redirecting emotion to a safer outlet; separation of emotion from its real object and redirection of the intense emotion toward someone or something that is less offensive or threatening in order to avoid dealing directly with what is frightening or threatening. For example, a mother may yell at her child because she is angry with her husband.
Dissociation: Temporary drastic modification of one's personal identity or character to avoid emotional distress; separation or postponement of a feeling that normally would accompany a situation or thought.
Hypochondriasis: An excessive preoccupation or worry about having a serious illness.
Intellectualization: A form of isolation; concentrating on the intellectual components of a situation so as to distance oneself from the associated anxiety-provoking emotions; separation of emotion from ideas; thinking about wishes in formal, affectively bland terms and not acting on them; avoiding unacceptable emotions by focusing on the intellectual aspects (isolation, rationalization, ritual, undoing, compensation, and magical thinking).
Isolation: Separation of feelings from ideas and events, for example, describing a murder with graphic details with no emotional response.
Rationalization (making excuses): Convincing oneself that no wrong has been done and that all is or was all right through faulty and false reasoning. An indicator of this defence mechanism can be seen socially as the formulation of convenient excuses.
Reaction formation: Converting unconscious wishes or impulses that are perceived to be dangerous or unacceptable into their opposites; behaviour that is completely the opposite of what one really wants or feels; taking the opposite belief because the true belief causes anxiety.
Regression: Temporary reversion of the ego to an earlier stage of development rather than handling unacceptable impulses in a more adult way, for example, using whining as a method of communicating despite already having acquired the ability to speak with appropriate grammar.[20]
Repression: The process of attempting to repel desires towards pleasurable instincts, caused by a threat of suffering if the desire is satisfied; the desire is moved to the unconscious in the attempt to prevent it from entering consciousness;[21] seemingly unexplainable naivety, memory lapse or lack of awareness of one's own situation and condition; the emotion is conscious, but the idea behind it is absent.[citation needed]
Undoing: A person tries to 'undo' an unhealthy, destructive or otherwise threatening thought by acting out the reverse of the unacceptable. Involves symbolically nullifying an unacceptable or guilt provoking thought, idea, or feeling by confession or atonement.
Withdrawal: Withdrawal is a more severe form of defence. It entails removing oneself from events, stimuli, and interactions under the threat of being reminded of painful thoughts and feelings.
Upward and downward social comparisons: A defensive tendency that is used as a means of self-evaluation. Individuals will look to another individual or comparison group who are considered to be worse off in order to dissociate themselves from perceived similarities and to make themselves feel better about themselves or their personal situation.
As MLCer going down by depression spiral he regress in more primitive defense mechanisms, means FOG arise.
When MLCer eventually hit PSYCHOSIS then his defense mechanisms become pathological.
Level 1: Pathological
The mechanisms on this level, when predominating, almost always are severely pathological. These six defences, in conjunction, permit one to effectively rearrange external experiences to eliminate the need to cope with reality. The pathological users of these mechanisms frequently appear irrational or insane to others. These are the "psychotic" defences, common in overt psychosis. However, they are found in dreams and throughout childhood as well.
They include:
Delusional Projection: Delusions about external reality, usually of a persecutory nature.
Conversion: The expression of an intrapsychic conflict as a physical symptom; some examples include blindness, deafness, paralysis, or numbness. This phenomena is sometimes called hysteria.[18]
Denial: Refusal to accept external reality because it is too threatening; arguing against an anxiety-provoking stimulus by stating it doesn't exist; resolution of emotional conflict and reduction of anxiety by refusing to perceive or consciously acknowledge the more unpleasant aspects of external reality.
Distortion: A gross reshaping of external reality to meet internal needs.
Splitting: A primitive defence. Negative and positive impulses are split off and unintegrated.
Extreme projection: The blatant denial of a moral or psychological deficiency, which is perceived as a deficiency in another individual or group.
Superiority complex: A psychological defence mechanism in which a person's feelings of superiority counter or conceal his or her feelings of inferiority.
Inferiority complex: A behaviour that is displayed through a lack of self-worth, an increase of doubt and uncertainty, and feeling of not measuring up to society's standards.
So, there is reason why we always talking here about clarity, FOG. They move up and down trough this post.
-
Albatross, another thought provoking post and so informative. Thank you. I see my h in so much of what you write. There is a worsening in his behaviour, he is withdrawing even more, and is in fantasy of what love is...and is rejecting the marriage based on that....he is seeing therapist on Wednesday, I hope he will soon understand his behaviour and thoughts are totally immature! Well, soon could be months!!
-
According RCR article (http://www.midlifecrisismarriageadvocate.com/mlc_overview_depression.html) that You can find everywhere about depression. Serious disorders can be present.
I think what RCR says is that and MLCer can show signs of disorders, not that they suffer from any (except depression that is a mood disorder). Of course there are MLCers who have previous disorders. That does not stop them from having a MLC, it will just make their MLC be worse than the ones of MLCers without previous disorders.
MLCers do not usually resemble neurotic people, they resemble bipolar (after all Replay has the two poles, a depressive and a manic one, like in bipolar) and, at times, borderline or psychotic.
You know that all those disorders, depression, bipolar, neurotic, and so on, have neurological causes, don't you? They did not come by just because someone decided to have a personality change. The personality changes results of neurological changes.
Depression is not, IMO, a reaction. Depression, coupled with stress, is the cause of MLC.
DSM-V, released this year, has replaced DSM-IV. It has some alterations from DSM-IV. You can read about it here:
http://ajp.psychiatryonline.org/article.aspx?articleID=177513&RelatedWidgetArticles=true
MLCers external life works fine. Or, at least, several of them can lead what outsiders would consider a normal external life. It is just that they go and live that life with someone else.
Don't want to sound hard Patience, but soon could be years. Lets hope not.
-
Fingers crossed! These posts are tough to read when you think how they apply to your loved spouse!
-
Fingers crossed! These posts are tough to read when you think how they apply to your loved spouse!
Yes, finger crossed. :) They are. But they also help us to understand the mess they are in/create. And can even be useful for other life situations we may be faced with.
-
Yes, but you know, one MLC situation is plenty for me in one life! I hope never to have to apply all this analysis to anything ever again!! ;D
-
One MLC situation is enough to any of us. ;D Was not thinking about another MLC situation. More that what we learn here can be used to many issues people face during life. From a serious illness to deal with teenage kids.
-
I knew what you meant, I was joking! ;D
-
I think what RCR says is that and MLCer can show signs of disorders, not that they suffer from any (except depression that is a mood disorder).
Agree, that is written in that my long post. They look like have PD because of long and in time acute depression which become psychoneurosis, then psychosis and if they go out MLC then gradually that start to diminish.
Depression is not, IMO, a reaction. Depression, coupled with stress, is the cause of MLC.
If You carefully read my post You can see that I wrote same. Their persona does not work anymore with outer world. Means coping mechanisms which they use does not work anymore. So, they going into depression. Then they try to get out of depression changing something, unfortunately they start to use maladaptive coping mechanisms instead changing self. That leads in deeper depression, psychoneurosis and how they sink in time they can hit psychosis and their look at the world change FOG, they start to regress = use more primitive defense mechanisms. They are in long chronic depression, which finally hit acute depression. So, then escape and avoid start because they did not solve inner problems which are since childhood, they cannot change, they wanna world accommodate to them.
MLCers external life works fine. Or, at least, several of them can lead what outsiders would consider a normal external life. It is just that they go and live that life with someone else.
I can't agree with that, MLCers 4 pillars are God, Body, Spouse, Job. My wife align with all 4. They just must function, but under persona - mask. They are under covert depression. They wanna change all 4 pillars but they haven't energy and will to do it that make them even more angrier. Ie means, Body = plastic surgery, running, gym, teenager cloths. God, stop to be religious and accuse God for their misery. They get fired from job because they cannot function well in it. My wife change 4 jobs since she go in MLC. Lost interest, low motivation, stubbornness and so on. Spouse is to blame because their life sux and who to blame = SO. My W in beginning blame self = Antihero. When we start to fight about her EA, then she blame me.
So, they are miserable in all 4 pillars, but they have to work and function in life under mask, but they are covertly depressed.
-
If they seek therapy, us that a sign they acknowledge their depression or that they acknowledge the spouse is not responsible for their turmoil, they are? Is that how they start their journey out of MLC?
-
If they seek therapy, us that a sign they acknowledge their depression or that they acknowledge the spouse is not responsible for their turmoil, they are? Is that how they start their journey out of MLC?
My personal opinion is that depression is just consequence of MLC, and antidepressants can help (more clarity) but also can prolong MLC because antidepressants cure consequences nor real cause. But that is just me.
-
He is not taking medication and I know he won't...he hates medicine, the most he will do is take vitamins!!! I trust in this process, and I really hope this man can get into my H's brain and start clearing the cobwebs of his childhood. He is so messed up, we can all see it, and I think he may just be starting to see that himself...that is why I have hope my marriage may eventually come back, but as always, there is no certainty and I have to let him do all on his own...knowing him, he will not ask me to participate in this, but I am interested to see changes....
-
I can't agree with that, MLCers 4 pillars are God, Body, Spouse, Job. My wife align with all 4. They just must function, but under persona - mask. They are under covert depression. They wanna change all 4 pillars but they haven't energy and will to do it that make them even more angrier. Ie means, Body = plastic surgery, running, gym, teenager cloths. God, stop to be religious and accuse God for their misery. They get fired from job because they cannot function well in it. My wife change 4 jobs since she go in MLC. Lost interest, low motivation, stubbornness and so on. Spouse is to blame because their life sux and who to blame = SO. My W in beginning blame self = Antihero. When we start to fight about her EA, then she blame me.
So, they are miserable in all 4 pillars, but they have to work and function in life under mask, but they are covertly depressed.
That's interesting! My H was highly developed in the Job area , but he spend so little time in God, Body & Spouse in the past 10 years . He secured his identity in his job, found personal satisfaction through position & success. But when he found that his company had a possibility to lay off , he was so scared & started all the maladaptive copings: dating, exercises , sex .... . He once told me that he can't see his future , he had no true friends , he didn't have a sense of belonging in our family. He said he was thinking of finding a new woman to start again but he then questioned himself " What is the purpose of a family ? " " I don't know whether I still love you and the kids or not ? " It's just very hard to understand their way of thinking in the MLC tunnel .
-
That's interesting! My H was highly developed in the Job area , but he spend so little time in God, Body & Spouse in the past 10 years . He secured his identity in his job, found personal satisfaction through position & success. But when he found that his company had a possibility to lay off , he was so scared & started all the maladaptive copings: dating, exercises , sex .... . He once told me that he can't see his future , he had no true friends , he didn't have a sense of belonging in our family. He said he was thinking of finding a new woman to start again but he then questioned himself " What is the purpose of a family ? " " I don't know whether I still love you and the kids or not ? " It's just very hard to understand their way of thinking in the MLC tunnel .
Yea, they often become workaholic and on that way keep persona identifying self trough job. To your spouse left only one pillar and when it collapse that MLC take full blown.
Mine first reject God and Body or reversal and then jobs, several of them, then spouse, then finally current job. She is now in full blown REPLAY, but seems that not help anymore, hopefully she will end soon bloody replay. :D
-
I hope so for you too! M H is a total workaholic and said he found that he was in control and felt worthwhile when in work, whereas when not in work he felt he was not! Is that Replay???
-
For my own midlife transition, I tried to readjust the time for job , taking care of children & myself . In my heart , I knew I was not happy ,depressive also in my 35. I finally quit a full time stressful job & changed to a part-time one, I have a more balanced life . I slowed down my life & lived a more simplified life . Of course , I need to sacrificed a very prosperous job and high position, but it's worthy of the choice .
So MLC may be good if they can pass through & make positive changes but they just go to the wrong ways & try to run away from the path.
-
Was there anything that could have been said to you to make it easier and for you to realise that damage was being caused? Not trying to say that that was your situation, but I'm trying to project to my H, and see if something could be said to help? I know he is on his journey, but I am interested to hear if he could be helped?
-
H has always worked hard, I think that comes from being self-employed, but he is now saying that he is going to work all the hours he can for the next three years. He has also created more work fixing up an old truck and rebuilding the engine for his 'spare' non driving time.
Last year he was going to work all week and ride his bike at weekends but OW has decided not to ride much now so I think the lure for bike riding isn't quite as strong!
Can they actually work themselves into the ground?
-
Yes, my H did and the affair was the escape from it all! We all suffered due to his relentless work schedule and she got the best of him, weekends away and sex fest!
-
Can they actually work themselves into the ground?
MLC is a grief process. When they found that nothing outside can really make them happy & they hit the rock bottom , they will start the true work. It's just hard to say when the process will finish , it really depend on the individual's ability to look inside & find their true self. But I believe they will find a way back because the life before MLC is good , what they treasured in the past was still there ( hopefully ) .
-
I can't agree with that, MLCers 4 pillars are God, Body, Spouse, Job. My wife align with all 4. They just must function, but under persona - mask. They are under covert depression. They wanna change all 4 pillars but they haven't energy and will to do it that make them even more angrier. Ie means, Body = plastic surgery, running, gym, teenager cloths. God, stop to be religious and accuse God for their misery. They get fired from job because they cannot function well in it. My wife change 4 jobs since she go in MLC. Lost interest, low motivation, stubbornness and so on. Spouse is to blame because their life sux and who to blame = SO. My W in beginning blame self = Antihero. When we start to fight about her EA, then she blame me.
So, they are miserable in all 4 pillars, but they have to work and function in life under mask, but they are covertly depressed.
I agree that they fight what they have but some of them function pretty well. And for years on end. One of the pillars, God, does not apply to every MLC. Some, like mine, are not, and never weere, religious or God believers. So some are not fighting that pillar.
What I mean by them functioning pretty well is that, some, manage to keep a MLC job for many years (mine has been on his steady MLC job for 6 years), a relationship with the same person for many years (OW2 has been in place for more than 5 years) and they look normal to anyone, sometimes even to old friends.
With some MLCers only the LBS, and maybe a close relative, may think they are strange and different. Everyone else will nothing wrong with them. So, if they can hold a job for years on end, keep the same relationship for many years, lead what, from outside, is considered a normal life, they can function in the outer world. They are not in hospital or in a mental health institution.
Still, mine is not able to find himself. Next week he has left 7 years ago. He remains in Replay and doing what he was doing when he left, being a DJ, clubbing, going party. He probably got too lost into MLC madness.
Mine is also become a workaholic. He has to keep himself busy at all times. Years ago he told me he could not stop because if he did he had to think about what he had done. Now, after many more nasty things done, he must be terrified of a moment without work, people around him, loud music, constant movement.
Most can work themselves into the ground even if it may take many years. Mine, I don't know. 7 years of party and clubbing and still able to not to sleep, or barely sleep, several nights in a row? This from a man who when young and until a little before he left needed at least 8 hours of sleep a night.
The ones who no longer have what they treasure before MLC (and mine has nothing. he does not have me, we don't have the marital home, doubt his old boss wants anything to do with him, he will not be accept back on our joint project that I'm slowly trying to bring back to life) may found it harder to get out of crisis. After all, all they have is themselves, their MLC mates and the other person. May be better to stick to that than to risk come out of crisis to be faced with nothing you used to treasure.
-
I WILL TRY TO CONNECT INDIVIDUATION PROCESS AND REPLAY
Individuation stages:
1. DISSOLUTION OF PERSONA
- PERSONA
2. DISSOLUTION OF THE ARCHETYPES
- SHADOW
- ANIMA / ANIMUS
As You can see MLCer have to deal with whole self ! And in this order:
- PERSONA
- EGO
- SHADOW
- ANIMA / ANIMUS
- SELF
As we possibly can trace them trough MLC stages map, I will try to trace my MLCer trough individuation map. Also I will try to make transparent whats going on in this CRUSADE ! xD
Majority of LBS's try to understand all crazy things what produce their MLCer. It is hard to understand motives or behavior someone who appears like crazy maniac which is total opposite what our spouse was before this madness.
Also process of individuation can be seen like this:
SELF - > INDIVIDUATED SELF
- Know your Self
- Love your Self
- Trust your Self
- Be your Self
This is the repost from REPLAY #2, I did not find so much time to made what I did promise, sorry because of inconvenience. I will try to merge MLCer map and individuation process in my genuine MLCer case. As I write before, is totally confusing that MLC is long 2-7 years and Jung said mergere shadow - ego is long 2-7 years. According RCR MLCer map Dissolution of persona begin in liminality or in Conway map in ACCEPTANCE phase. If is on that way whole MLC process will be much, much longer then 2-7 years. I believe that a lot things happening during REPLAY which is longest and most painful for LBS in MLC map. I don't wanna to prove anything, as I said I will try to connect MLC map and INdividuation process in my case.
-
Albatoss
You say you are going to attempt to trace/identify your W's progress using the stages of Individuation. Persona/Ego/Shadow/Animus/Self. It might be helpful in understanding these stages if you could provide some behavioral examples of each stage. I have always believed that working from examples helps to formulate a concept or principle of what the example represents than attempting to think of examples based on concepts (the other way around).
Thanks for your consideration....and for all the valuable insight you provide to us struggling LBS's.
-
Same response from me! Would help if I could read concrete exames! Thank you so much your posts are brilliant.
-
I would be interested in hearing from anyone in reconnection or rebuilding as to what their MLCer was doing in Replay up until the point liminality hit. I am seeing very tragic and desperate measures by my H to find 'happiness' it really is looking quite pathetic. I cannot understand how he thinks deep down this behaviour is normal. I appreciate within MLC land it is an individual journey, I am just interested whether there is some sort of pattern, if at all.
-
I would be interested in hearing from anyone in reconnection or rebuilding as to what their MLCer was doing in Replay up until the point liminality hit. I am seeing very tragic and desperate measures by my H to find 'happiness' it really is looking quite pathetic. I cannot understand how he thinks deep down this behaviour is normal. I appreciate within MLC land it is an individual journey, I am just interested whether there is some sort of pattern, if at all.
What they do ? Mostly they think that their life is total failure. And they searching for happiness - new life. Running away from unhappiness - old life. Someone, something what will make them happy. They don't realize that nobody can make someone happy.
Their personality does not work anymore. Instead changing self, depression is natural state for investigating inner self. And that happening to the people in MLT. But they instead changing self decide that all others around them guilty for their misery and escape from old life. So, MLcers in REPLAY are happiness chasers - junkies. Escaping and avoiding changing self. When they FINALLY realize that it is OWN fault or tired or both, perusing happiness because they will not find any, they are ready for liminality.
-
Thanks Albatross.
What I don't get is how they don't see that either sleeping around, lying, spending money they don't have, etc etc is normal behaviour.
The reason for my question is I am interested in how many people in reconnection or reconciliation out there had an MLCer who went to OP2, OP3 etc before they hit liminality. I am fearful that the answer is 'none'?
In addition to this, going back to my original question, for those who have reconciled what replay activities was their MLCer involved in (if known) before liminality.
-
panda,
What junkie that continues to inject poison into his/her bloodstream is not aware that it is destructive behavior? That doesn't matter because it is something they believe they HAVE to do in spite of knowing it's crazy. That's why addicts mostly try to conceal their addictions. They are not proud of what they do. They see the alternative.....getting clean, or in the case of MLCers, facing their demons....as much worse than continuing with their addiction. When they withdraw, there is serious pain, anguish and misery. This is true with any addiction, whether it be heroin or sex or alcohol or anything else. The MLCer feels deep depression and fear.
And there are many, many, many LBS's who have MLCers who go on to multiple OPs. You are not alone and your MLCer is typical.
Hang in there and take care!
-
Panda, my H was on OW#2 for the second time! I only know of 2 and am just guessing of "exact liminility's date"...as we are reconnecting but still some answers are needed :)
My H was EXTREMELY Anxious I could tell by some emails I read and his behaviour he was about to jump.....and I truly believe he was going to leave(he has been physically in the home entire crisis) He was begging OW to "have him" be together in life.......it was hurtful to read BUT it gave me true insight as to what seemed to be happening. Not sure she was "on board" with his plans, almost felt as though she was "listening" only but not agreeing to be together. I only base that on H's emails as I never saw her responses...not sure. BUT a crisis happended within our family and some lies were discovered by our children.....not sure but it seemed as though it pushed him. We had several touch 'n goes prior, each one lasting a little longer than the one before. BUT suddenly things began to change. It felt as though he was truly changing, truly opening up., and truly there again. That was in March 2013, so who knows for sure and only time will tell. It is now 3 years since initial BD and we will have our 33rd anniversary next week. It is so much better than the last 7 years, I still worry but not as much as I know if something happened again, I would know it so that makes me feel like I am in more control of my life than before, if that makes sense ??
each crisis is the same, yet so very different!!
31
-
I would be interested in hearing from anyone in reconnection or rebuilding as to what their MLCer was doing in Replay up until the point liminality hit. I am seeing very tragic and desperate measures by my H to find 'happiness' it really is looking quite pathetic. I cannot understand how he thinks deep down this behaviour is normal. I appreciate within MLC land it is an individual journey, I am just interested whether there is some sort of pattern, if at all.
What they do ? Mostly they think that their life is total failure. And they searching for happiness - new life. Running away from unhappiness - old life. Someone, something what will make them happy. They don't realize that nobody can make someone happy.
Their personality does not work anymore. Instead changing self, depression is natural state for investigating inner self. And that happening to the people in MLT. But they instead changing self decide that all others around them guilty for their misery and escape from old life. So, MLcers in REPLAY are happiness chasers - junkies. Escaping and avoiding changing self. When they FINALLY realize that it is OWN fault or tired or both, perusing happiness because they will not find any, they are ready for liminality.
Panda, here is what I am seeing with my H:
It is going on 4 weeks since he broke up with OW; it has not been a good 4 weeks. H decided to leave OW because saw that he was losing me, so I am not sure if he is ready for liminaliy yet in that he is, IMO, giving too much thought to external forces. He is very down on himself (feels like a failure) often commenting on how he can't do anything right, that nobody likes him, maybe he should start drinking again because he has already pissed off everyone anyway, and very clingy. Now keep in mind that I have not been the 'source' of unhappiness; he has always said that he loves me and won't leave, this is quite different from most situations and I don't really understand it. We are trying to reconnect and he is quite frustrated with the process; he wants to see progress and is cycling a lot.
As far as replay activities go, H has displayed the following: OW (8 months), excessive exercising/vanity, spending money, selfishness, needs constant input/feedback/communication (was from OW now it is from me, not about anything in paticular, like a teenager just needs to chatter), has really hard time being still/quiet. He mentioned wanting to go visit family out of state because he thinks it will make him feel better to be around people that like him meaning people he hasn't pissed off (?) I don't think he is out of replay yet, maybe the tail end, because he is still very selfish in his thoughts and actions. I would not be suprised if he went back to OW, I know she is still trying to reach out to him and is waiting ???
There is more detail on my thread that might help; it is definitely not an easy period. In some ways I feel like I did in the beginning questioning everything, the difference being that I have detached some and don't feel the need to fix H.
-
Twilightzone, Yes you are quite right - I keep forgetting that his behaviour is one of an addict. And he IS keeping lots of stuff secret. I suspect the OW knows less than me.
31 - thank you for your post. I was beginning to think that it was LBS with MLCers either a live in or no affair that had reconciled. My H has been with the OW for over a year now and in Replay for approx 2 years. OW does not seem to be going anywhere but he appears to be looking for another. I get the impression that the OW is pushing him to leave but he is making big excuses as to why not as he is still here. Something he tries to threaten me with constantly. He has also told me his wish is to live alone. Really cannot keep up with it. To be honest the more I see, I am grateful to understand the situation but I cannot believe I was once intimate with this man.
Searching - Your H through his actions has given you some hope that maybe things will improve. My H has always blamed me for his feelings of misery. I need to go back and re-read your thread!
I still don't get how they can behave ok (whilst in Replay)in front of people and act totally looney to us. And I mean simple things. H put the dishwasher on when the dishes hadn't been put in it. He hadn't seen them - even though he had just made his dinner ??? - crazy!!!!!!!!!!!!
-
I believe that beginning of MLC is beginning of individuation. Like beginning of MLT is beginning of individuation to. Only difference between MLT and MLC is how big shadow is and does shadow become autonomous.
Individuation become when one become aware of own shadow.
1. Appearance
2. Encounter with the shadow
3. Merger with the shadow
4. Assimilation of the shadow
-
To me is impossible to even imagine that someone can be driven with subconscious. It is impossible because one can't be driven with something whet he is not aware. In other words have to be merger - shadow / ego before REPLAY or during REPLAY. Subconscious have to be reveled into consonances and on that way produce personality changes. MLCers make rational decisions. But they make them poorly. So, we are aware that MLCers become totally different personalities. Abducted by aliens. Different 180 degrees. Then I can't conclude different then elements of shadow emerge into conciseness and personality change.
-
This is my take on replay.
Replay is about them wanting another shot at life, unfortunately they don't get that you only really get one shot and cannot go back into the past to fix it.
Now, I am guessing that 99% of the time it is about the life they had before they got with us. We, in their minds, changed their lives.
As they get to midlife, they start to question what the hell happened between back then and now, so of course, when they feel they might not be where they think they should be at by now, we get all the blame.
So, seeing as we were not part of that life before 'us', we must remove ourselves from it. If we hang around and hang on tight, it gets even more confusing for them.
We are not meant to be part of it. We were not there the first time around. Right now, we pretty much don't exist to them. We are not real.
I think it is only when they are done trying to change the past that they can decide whether or not we could fit into the second shot, in the future.
However, by then, we also get to have our say, a choice. It is , I reckon, when they realise that they cannot get a second shot at it that things can really move forward, and hopefully not too much time has gone wasted.
I think if you could work out what age your MLC'er is at and the time difference between then being that age and you meeting them, you might get an idea on how long their journey through MLC might take.
Mine is somewhere between 15 and 17 years old. I have gathered that much because I do not recognise him. I did not know him then but I know what kind of liife he had. He grew up a bit when he met me. All he talks about to everyone is his life back when he was between 15 and 17. So I am looking at a 2 to 4 years recovery for him.
We are 1 year in and I have removed myself from his life.
Of course this is all just a theory of mine, I could of course be wrong, I'm no expert. Just an observer.
I'm hoping he is 17...not 15 because quite frankly, I am finding the whole thing rather tedious already! :D
-
Booboo
I think if you could work out what age your MLC'er is at and the time difference between then being that age and you meeting them, you might get an idea on how long their journey through MLC might take.
Mine is somewhere between 15 and 17 years old. I have gathered that much because I do not recognise him. I did not know him then but I know what kind of liife he had. He grew up a bit when he met me. All he talks about to everyone is his life back when he was between 15 and 17. So I am looking at a 2 to 4 years recovery for him.
I really hope this isn't the way its going to go!!! MY H, I met when he was 29. He's acting like a 17 year old at the moment. He's been in crisis already for approx 3.5 years (trigger I think was demanding/stressful new job), with replay for 2 years. I hope I haven't got another 9 years or so of this. I will be long gone!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
-
I hope I'm wrong, too, Panda.
I also think that they is a fast forward button on this, and when we do remove ourselves that is when they can push that button.
Scared they could run out of time.
Time is the essence with MLC, is it not? Fear plays a key role, too, I believe.
Now where did I put my Tardis?
-
Booboo,
Am fairly convinced it is the fear holding my H here. Who knows this crisis may be 'got through' quicker if he took himself away to his fantasy land (OW) so that could fall apart. But no, he makes things as painful as possible by prolonging the misery for himself and all involved.
I could do with a Tardis aswell. Transport me 10 years into the future - see where this all leads!
-
Oh forget 'em. Who says we can't live in our own fantasy world if we want to as well. It's not like they are bothered about what we do, right?
We can have fun, too. Within limits of course. All we have to do is keep it clean, that works for/from/with our self -esteem anyway.
They can press rewind, fast forward, play, replay, pause all they like.
We can press STOP!!!
Hammer time! Can't touch this! lol
-
My wife is in replay, however there has been a split with OM and he is back with his long term partner so it is my guess that he binned W to pick up his life where it left off. So at the moment W could turn anyway, chase after OM, find another OM or take dreaded steps towards liminality. I know she is fighting the last option as she is monstering at me and dragging her heels on the divorce she instigated.
Booboo, I like your theory on replay although I’m not sure if I quite fit. W is 49, we met when she was 29,and she has gone back to how she behaved when she was 19, we’ve been at this more than 10 years, so by now she should be running out of steam. Actually when I look at her health deterioration and her appearance when the mask is down that could be anytime soon, or is that just my wishful thinking.
Lanzo
-
“Midway on our life's journey…": On Psychological Transformation at Midlife ” (http://www.murraystein.com/midway.html)
According Murray Stein Mild Life Transformation have stages:
1. Separation - Withdrawal, Separation and Loss
Entails the experience of loss, withdrawal, and grief.
2. Liminality
Demands patience and tolerance of ambiguity during the transition from one identity to another
3. Reintegration
Requires a constructive and proactive attitude to participate in building up and consolidating a new sense of identity.
Reading this article REPLAY is part of Liminality, means Dissolution of persona is beginning of Liminality, then goes merger with shadow. Whole process of individuation. All of that in Liminality.
"The transformation-of-personality process is metaphorically imaged as beginning with the spinning of a cacoon, which is then entered (withdrawal phase), and this is followed by the dissolving of former structures (liminality phase), which finally transforms the being into a winged creature (reintegration phase) – from caterpillar (the persona identity) to butterfly (the mature, post-midlife identity)."
-
Yes, Lanzo, I get what you are saying, BUT, we are not the problem here.
They have gone into regression. Back to a time where something went wrong with their emotional development.
We are not the cause of it, they THINK we are!!!!
We're not.
I just happen to have met my MLC'er at that time. So I am probably getting even more blame than you are.
People tend to hurt/project bad feelings onto the people closest to them when they feel down on themselves.
We were just there!
Your spouse was headed for a MLC the minute whatever went wrong during her life occurred.
that was before you came along.
If there was another long term relationship or marriage before yours, they will look into that, too. I think that is why a lot of MLC'ers go back to their first love to find out if something went wrong there...Of course it did, otherwise they would still be together now, but at that time, your MLC'er wasn't going through MLC.
She is now!
When they broke off previous relationships, it is very likely that they were fully aware of why it did break. Unless they suffer BPD and have all their lives, yet MLC would intensify BPD, so again, MLC is the main problem.
With is one, your relationship, they are not aware at all of what is wrong until they open the door to liminality.
I think I know what I mean lol
Just get the hell out!!!
-
Separation - Withdrawal, Separation and Loss
Entails the experience of loss, withdrawal, and grief.
The first task at hand, psychologically speaking, is the emotional work of grieving the past. What has been lost must be recognized as such and deeply mourned. If this is not done, the cover-up will not go away but turn into the stench of rotting corpses. Life will come to an emotional standstill and bitterness will gradually build up. Life will lose it potential for further growth and become bogged down in unfinished business from the past. In MidLife addresses this as "burying the dead." The old, the lost, the dead must be put away and stored in memory, and this cannot be accomplished without entering into the suffering of grief. This calls for a period of mourning.
What has been lost and needs to be put away is more than the specific object that may have disappeared. It is a phase of life, an era, perhaps formulated as youth itself. The persona that had been adopted for functioning conventionally in the social and cultural mileau, which worked adequately for a time, has now become unable to encompass the reality of the psyche in its fuller incarnation. And so like a snake shedding its old skin, the period of transformation begins with the tearing pain of breakdown. The alchemists spoke of this as the stage of nigredo in their opus. It is a period of opaqueness, depression, and seemingly hopeless suffering, when the prospect of going on in life takes on the perspective of meaningless drudgery and painful boredom. This phase must be endured and worked through, and this is done - perhaps with the help of a psychotherapist - through what is commonly known as "grief work." It is a work of suffering the loss consciously and without recourse to previous defenses like denial and repression or projection, and this means coming to terms with what the loss means for one's present and future life, and accepting it.
-
The Second Phase - Liminality
Alongside this process and often in conjunction with the descent into nigredo, there begin to emerge new elements of the personality that have not held a place in the persona identity before now. These may first appear in the form of dream symbols that can be quite difficult to interpret as such because they may show up as fearful and threatening figures, such as intruders, unsavory animals like snakes, beggars and other marginalized folk, and so forth.
On the other hand, there may be an influx of compensatory exuberance and inflationary energy during this period. Sudden intuitions of the dawning of new possibilities for life feel like the miraculous gift of incredible new freedom to do and be what one has not allowed oneself before. Simultaneous with grieving the loss of the past identity – as husband or wife, as son or daughter, as father or mother, as professional whatever – there arrives a burst of promise of a new life. Usually this is quite premature and should be read as a foreshadowing of distant things to come, energy to be used for new projects in the future, but often the compensatory force of this intrusion of libido is difficult to contain. This is the source of the famous "acting out" that so frequently takes place during the midlife crisis.
If grieving and accepting loss are the tasks of the first part of the process, the tasks of the second stage include containing and maintaining the freedom to explore widely and deeply and not too quickly settling for the security of new attachments and commitments. In other words, a moratorium on closure is called for, until things become more ordered and clarified. The possibility for a type of defensive maneuver that Jung aptly called "regressive restoration of the persona" leads backwards rather than forwards. In that case, the whole process may try to repeat itself in order to achieve the growth that can result in greater individuation.
The prolonged middle phase of the transformation at midlife is perhaps the most important and difficult phase of the process. In my book, In Midlife, I use the term "liminality" to speak about this phase. The term means "betwixt and between" or "in a threshold." Psychologically, it indicates being located between firm and fixed identities and in a state of flux with respect to a solid sense of self. It is a period of confusion and ambiguity, but also a time of discovery and potential transformation. The term transformation can be misunderstood in this context. It does not mean to become a different personality, unrecognizable by people who have known the midlifer before. Rather, it means to become more of what a person potentially is, to increase the range of a personality's expression, of its incarnation into everyday reality, to bring more of the self as a whole into conscious realization. Transformation phases in life are periods of emergence, when features of the personality that have been latent come to the fore and take up a place in the conscious reportoire of intersts, passions, and behaviors. Transformation signals an expansion of selfhood. And just as this is a chaotic period during the years of adolescence when sexuality is coming into play in a new and powerful way, so it is a period of chaos at midlife when what we call "shadow" and "anima" (or "animus" in the case of women) come into play.
The shadow contains features of the personality that have been rejected because they are incompatible with the social persona being constructed during adolescence and early adulthood. Certain personality elements, often quite valuable and potentially enriching in themselves, are repressed because they were found to be objectionable for moral or social reasons. In adolescent terminology, they are not "cool." Now they clammer for attention.
Are we married to nerds ?
-
The Third Phase – Re-Integration
As the period of liminality draws to a close, a new interest in participating in the social and cultural world, but as a new kind of person, takes hold. In my book Transformation – Emergence of the Self, I call this the emergence and consolidation of the "imago." This is the butterfly that breaks out of the cacoon at the end of the metamorphosis, which passes from the death of the old structure (a crawling insect) through dissolution (pupal stage) to a new formation (imago). The new imago is the incarnation of the self in a new form, psychologically more complete and whole than the earlier persona identity had allowed or indicated. Aspects of the former persona may in part be taken up into the imago, but it is put into a broader context. Just as Jung, when he emerged from his profound introspective period of withdrawal and liminality, retained his earlier social roles as father, husband, and physician, so the imago personality may carry with it important features of the earlier form. But now this is given a new place within the overarching meaning and purpose of the imago that has taken over the place of central identity. New channels for energy deployment and investment are available, and the old persona features become mere tools of management in the new orientation.
-
Now become all clear to me. My wife MLC path - timeline is perfectly match ! And I know exactly where she is on the MAP ! I will connect what I have in timeline, her blog and this. All confusion become about REPLAY as part of separation which is not. Some people do not act out, they contemplate = MLT, some act out trough EA, possible PA. Like Jung said it is about second stage of individuation, personal relationship dissolving anima/animus. Everything from this site is true except that REPLAY is in SEPARATION instead of LIMINALITY and MLCer are aware of everything ! Yes, they are in acting out behavior where they take great risk burning bridges with old life, but their urge to individuation is so powerful !
-
Just to come back to Boo boo.
W first love was when she was 18 and he was in his thirties, she generally dated older men and I don’t think her parents approved of her choices. I think I actually met him when we had only been dating a few months.
I on the other hand am just a year older and was different to her normal type, I was also was approved and loved by everyone she knew. I think I was more husband material that got the approval rating rather than being a true love.
The current OM is in his sixties, around 15 years older than her and almost a carbon copy of her first love.
When I look more into things, W was always going to have a MLC, I’ve been trying to work out what her under laying problem was and could it be something as simple as her trying to work out where it went wrong with #1 love.
Sheesh….. all this hassle over something so stupid.
Lanzo
-
That is why it is not worth looking into it and analysing it too much.
It'll be over when it is, but if we get in the way, we just slow the process down.
-
Now become all clear to me. My wife MLC path - timeline is perfectly match ! And I know exactly where she is on the MAP ! I will connect what I have in timeline, her blog and this. All confusion become about REPLAY as part of separation which is not. Some people do not act out, they contemplate = MLT, some act out trough EA, possible PA. Like Jung said it is about second stage of individuation, personal relationship dissolving anima/animus. Everything from this site is true except that REPLAY is in SEPARATION instead of LIMINALITY and MLCer are aware of everything ! Yes, they are in acting out behavior where they take great risk burning bridges with old life, but their urge to individuation is so powerful !
Very interested in hearing more Albatross. So where do you think your W is on the map? I will need to read all of this again!
-
Just want to aks u Lanzo if u think this is MLC bc i hv often wondered if my H has finally
found his soulmate....situation similar in that I also feel his parents ...especially his father, did'nt approve of his choices wrt everything ...very controlling.
My H always wanted to please his father and since his father married a woman from my country of origin ,H did the same. So like u ,i may not be his normal type ......more wife material than true love.
His mother passed away 17 yrs ago and his father has alzeihmers.He is in a home since last year when this started.
So this relationship maybe what he always wanted.The only sign that it is MLC is that OW is 21 yrs younger and at 55 says he feels young and wants to hv fun.
LBS
-
Hi Lovebystanding,
Yeah W is in MLC, If I’m honest I think she has gone back to a time to rebel against her parents, W always tried to please her dad and I know he was really made up and happy for her when we got together.
When I found out about this OM I did think she had found her soul mate as he tick all the boxes she looked for in a man before she met me, however as we have looked into his background we can see he is a bit of a player, a pervy old man with a string of conquest behind him. He was sleeping with his partner and W and the same time and it wouldn’t surprise me if there were others.
I speculate now when I say he was the one that ditched W, so as I said earlier W may either chase after him or go looking for someone similar. A funny thing was W used to try to get me to dress in a certain way, dapper looking, smart formal clothes & chunky jewellery , when I look at it now she was trying to get me to dress how OM dresses now and if you add to that I now have a shaven head I could pass for a younger version of OM.
So yes this is MLC and I think if OM was less of a dog she would be with her soul mate.
Lanzo
-
Nigredo
An alchemical term, corresponding psychologically to the mental disorientation that typically arises in the process of assimilating unconscious contents, particularly aspects of the shadow.
Self-knowledge is an adventure that carries us unexpectedly far and deep. Even a moderately comprehensive knowledge of the shadow can cause a good deal of confusion and mental darkness, since it gives rise to personality problems which one had never remotely imagined before. For this reason alone we can understand why the alchemists called their nigredo melancholia, “a black blacker than black,” night, an affliction of the soul, confusion, etc., or, more pointedly, the “black raven.” For us the raven seems only a funny allegory, but for the medieval adept it was . . . a well-known allegory of the devil.
In the second sense, 'the nigredo of the process of individuation on the other hand is a subjectively experienced process brought about by the subject's painful, growing awareness of his shadow aspects'.[7] It could be described as a moment of maximum despair, that is a prerequisite to personal development.[8] As individuation unfolds, so 'confrontation with the shadow produces at first a dead balance, a standstill that hampers moral decisions and makes convictions ineffective or even impossible...nigredo, tenebrositas, chaos, melancholia'.[9] Here is 'the darkest time, the time of despair, disillusionment, envious attacks; the time when Eros and Superego are at daggers drawn, and there seems no way forward...nigredo, the blackening'.[10]
Only subsequently would come 'an enantiodromia: the nigredo gives way to the albedo...the ever deepening descent into the unconscious suddenly becomes illumination from above'[11]
Carl Jung equated the albedo with unconscious contrasexual soul images; the anima in men and animus in women. It is a phase where insight into shadow projections are realized, and inflated ego and unneeded conceptualizations are removed from the psyche.
-
"Often midlife is a profoundly transformational period in personal identity for both women and men. Sometimes this takes the form of the famous "crisis," but often it is not something quite so dramatic. I have come to think of it instead as a potential second birth of adult identity, the first having taken place between late adolescence and the thirtieth year. And birth is sometimes traumatic, and so one speaks of it as a "crisis" with justification. But even if not a fullblown crisis, it may signal a subtle transition in a person's sense of self and identity.
About the timing of this transformation process, one cannot be quite so precisely mathematical. Some people seem to experience this on the early end of the midlife period, and many others on the other end and in their late forties. The timing is quite variable and depends on a number of factors coalescing that bring it to a point. What happened earlier in the person's line of development out of childhood through adolescence and into adulthood is of importance in this.
-
So you mean if someone has a family history of separation then there is a likelihood if separation for the MLCer too?
-
So you mean if someone has a family history of separation then there is a likelihood if separation for the MLCer too?
I don't quite get Your question, can You please paraphrase ?
-
What I mean is that the experiences that happens to a person when he or she is a young adolescent is something that can happen again in adulthood. For example, a person who experiences the divorce of his parents is more likely to repeat that experience if it affected them deeply and it was not taken care of at the time?
-
PG I asked the psychologist this, but it was at the end of a session, and I must remember for next week when I go.
I asked him what I need to do to help my children not follow in their father's footsteps. H's dad left him, and I asked the psychol, why, knowing the pain it causes, would a father do it to his kids, when he must have grown up vowing to never to it to a child of his, knowing how much it hurt.
I think the psychologist guy said something like it was learned behaviour, and something he would have learned as being a coping method. H learned to do it by knowing his dad did it. Mind you, if you saw Hs mother, you might understand :o
I don't think our kids will do it as they are growing up in a nurturing environment, and have a solid mom to support them. I hope that is how it is anyway. Need to find out more about it.
Don't think it is a conscious thing at all. Why would a parent who grew up with the pain of a parent leaving, do it to their own child.
-
Snowdrop the same happened here. Both my parents n H parents separated. We had vowed to NEVER do this to our children because of pain etc... But it happened n now I want to protect my children for the future. How do you ensure that?
-
"Jung's model of typology distinguishes four psychological functions: thinking, feeling, sensation and intuition.
Sensation establishes what is actually present, thinking enables us to recognize its meaning, feeling tells us its value, and intuition points to possibilities as to whence it came and whither it is going in a given situation.
Though all the functions exist in every psyche, one function is invariably more consciously developed than the others, giving rise to a one-sidedness that often leads to neurosis.
The more [a man] identifies with one function, the more he invests it with libido, and the more he withdraws libido from the other functions. They can tolerate being deprived of libido for even quite long periods, but in the end they will react. Being drained of libido, they gradually sink below the threshold of consciousness, lose their associative connection with it, and finally lapse into the unconscious. This is a regressive development, a reversion to the infantile and finally to the archaic level. . . . [which] brings about a dissociation of the personality"
-
Sorry albatross, this has totally lost me!
-
Sorry albatross, this has totally lost me!
Basically Jung said that is one person identify consciously only on one of functions thinking, feeling, sensation and intuition then consequence will be that others functions goes to the shadow. For example someone like Einstein was totally identified consciously with thinking. Person become very unbalanced. In long therm then can be possibility of dissociation of the personality. That means person can have one more personality which is independent. It monster what we call here in jargon. Shadow contain mostly bad things, and MLCer are very defensive, if they feel attacked than by automatic MLcer can be taken by independent very powerful mean persona...
-
Stages of MLC: Conway
Denial
Anger
Replay
Depression
Withdrawal
Acceptance
Stages of Grief: Kübler-Ross1
Denial
Anger
Bargaining
Depression
Acceptance
Murray Stein identifies three stages of a Midlife Transition
Separation
Liminality
Reintegration
RCR MLC MAP (According Murray Stein MLT process)
Separation
Rejection & Refusal
Resentment
Replay (Covert Depression)
Liminality or Liminal/Overt Depression
Rebirth
Reintegration
According Murray Stein ACTING OUT = REPLAY is only difference between MLC and MLT. What that does mean ? That ACTING OUT is consequence of huge psychic energy - libido stored in subconsciousness - shadow. And that is consequence of very unbalanced person huge shadow, suppression from long, long time. No changes adaptation since puberty, rigid persons, FOO issues and so on. I will add one more important factor, and that our MLCers so stubborn that they wont change even in such condition and they try to escape from own shadow which is finally imminent. They escape and avoid until shadow merge with ego.
People who have lower shadow do not store so huge energy and no need for ACTING OUT. Less things to work on it. So, REPLAY is part of liminality according to Murray Stein. I did expect more discussion about this at least from people who are long time in MLC crap as LBS's. Now making sense that merger with shadow take long 2 -7 years according to Jung. ie REPLAY is longest in MLC and most mysterious part in MLC and enigma for LB's.
I am going forward with my view how REPLAY look like from my eyes (personal experience with my MLCer and knowledge in psychology which I made studding hard).
-
Albatross, can you shed some light on this for me? I'm not as au fait with psychology. You post:"they try to escape from own shadow which is finally imminent. They escape and avoid until shadow merge with ego."
My question is why does this happen. what makes a shadow emerge with ego. What is the exact definition of ego?
The time span 2 -7 years is from the start of MLC, as noted by spouse, is that when this merger starts to happen? Or is that time from BD, when all hell seems to break loose for MLCers.
My questions might seem basic to you, but at times I'm confused, even if I do get it in general, I'm sometimes lost in the definitions and can't always relate to where h is?
Sorry for all the brain poking!
-
Acting out is a psychological term from the parlance of defense mechanisms and self-control, meaning to perform an action in contrast to bearing and managing the impulse to perform it. The acting done is usually anti-social and may take the form of acting on the impulses of an addiction (e.g. drinking, drug taking or shoplifting) or in a means designed (often unconsciously or semi-consciously) to garner attention (e.g. throwing a tantrum or behaving promiscuously).
In general usage, the action performed is destructive to self or others and may inhibit the development of more constructive responses to the feelings in question. The term is used in this way in sexual addiction treatment, psychotherapy, criminology and parenting.
Freud considered that patients in analysis tended to act out their conflicts in preference to remembering them - repetition compulsion.[1] The analytic task was then to help "the patient who does not remember anything of what he has forgotten and repressed, but acts it out"[2] to replace present activity by past memory.
Repetition compulsion is a psychological phenomenon in which a person repeats a traumatic event or its circumstances over and over again. This includes reenacting the event or putting oneself in situations where the event is likely to happen again. This "re-living" can also take the form of dreams in which memories and feelings of what happened are repeated, and even hallucination.
The term can also be used to cover the repetition of behavior or life patterns more broadly: a "key component in Freud's understanding of mental life, 'repetition compulsion'...describes the pattern whereby people endlessly repeat patterns of behavior which were difficult or distressing in earlier life."[1]
-
Vaillant's levels are:
Level I - pathological defences (psychotic denial, delusional projection)
Level II - immature defences (fantasy, projection, passive aggression, acting out)
Level III - neurotic defences (intellectualization, reaction formation, dissociation, displacement, repression)
Level IV - mature defences (humour, sublimation, suppression, altruism, anticipation)
Level 2: Immature
This section needs additional citations for verification. Please help improve this article by adding citations to reliable sources. Unsourced material may be challenged and removed. (June 2013)
These mechanisms are often present in adults. These mechanisms lessen distress and anxiety produced by threatening people or by an uncomfortable reality. Excessive use of such defences is seen as socially undesirable, in that they are immature, difficult to deal with and seriously out of touch with reality. These are the so-called "immature" defences and overuse almost always leads to serious problems in a person's ability to cope effectively. These defences are often seen in major depression and personality disorders.
They include:
Acting out: Direct expression of an unconscious wish or impulse in action, without conscious awareness of the emotion that drives that expressive behaviour.
Fantasy: Tendency to retreat into fantasy in order to resolve inner and outer conflicts.
Wishful thinking: Making decisions according to what might be pleasing to imagine instead of by appealing to evidence, rationality, or reality
Idealization: Unconsciously choosing to perceive another individual as having more positive qualities than he or she may actually have.[23]
Passive aggression: Aggression towards others expressed indirectly or passively, often through procrastination.
Projection: A primitive form of paranoia. Projection reduces anxiety by allowing the expression of the undesirable impulses or desires without becoming consciously aware of them; attributing one's own unacknowledged unacceptable or unwanted thoughts and emotions to another; includes severe prejudice and jealousy, hypervigilance to external danger, and "injustice collecting", all with the aim of shifting one's unacceptable thoughts, feelings and impulses onto someone else, such that those same thoughts, feelings, beliefs and motivations are perceived as being possessed by the other.
Projective identification: The object of projection invokes in that person precisely the thoughts, feelings or behaviours projected.
Somatization: The transformation of negative feelings towards others into negative feelings toward oneself, pain, illness, and anxiety.
-
Thanks Albatross. One question, is it worthwhile forwarding such information to my H? would it help him understand what is going on, and help him along his journey?
-
Thanks Albatross. One question, is it worthwhile forwarding such information to my H? would it help him understand what is going on, and help him along his journey?
I don't think that is good idea. First of all he probably haven't enough knowledge to follow what is here. And second of all he even that have knowledge he will be no able to understand. MLCers are driven by emotions. Also they are isolated from world into cocoon and they are so busy with self that they haven't any energy, concentration to explore and learn from outside.
-
Thanks Albatross. One question, is it worthwhile forwarding such information to my H? would it help him understand what is going on, and help him along his journey?
I don't think that is good idea. First of all he probably haven't enough knowledge to follow what is here. And second of all he even that have knowledge he will be no able to understand. MLCers are driven by emotions. Also they are isolated from world into cocoon and they are so busy with self that they haven't any energy, concentration to explore and learn from outside.
I completely agree with Albatross. Normally, my H is very logical, a thinker; we have had basic discussions about MLC that I would have thought would make him curious enough to look into for himself but he is still caught up in the emotions. His logical side is buried somewhere in him. He has been commenting on how he isn't as sharp as use to be and he doesn't remember things; it is an interesting development.
-
Ok, thank you for clarification. I will keep the info for me. My H is definitely acting on feelings at the moment: I don't feel anything for you, I miss OW, I miss my children, I don't miss you, I have not heard any rational explanation, it's just : I feel. Yes interesting.
-
Abaissement du niveau mental.
A lowering of the level of consciousness, a mental and emotional condition experienced as "loss of soul."
It is a slackening of the tensity of consciousness, which might be compared to a low barometric reading, presaging bad weather. The tonus has given way, and this is felt subjectively as listlessness, moroseness, and depression. One no longer has any wish or courage to face the tasks of the day. One feels like lead, because no part of one's body seems willing to move, and this is due to the fact that one no longer has any disposable energy. . . . The listlessness and paralysis of will can go so far that the whole personality falls apart, so to speak, and consciousness loses its unity . . . .
Abaissement du niveau mental can be the result of physical and mental fatigue, bodily illness, violent emotions, and shock, of which the last has a particularly deleterious effect on one's self-assurance. The abaissement always has a restrictive influence on the personality as a whole. It reduces one's self-confidence and the spirit of enterprise, and, as a result of increasing egocentricity, narrows the mental horizon.
-
The process of self-regulation is going on all the time within the psyche. It only becomes noticeable when ego-consciousness has particular difficulty in adapting to external or internal reality. That is often the start of a process, proceeeding along the lines outlined in the chart, that may lead to individuation.
The Self-regulation of the Psyche
1. Difficulty of adaptation. Little progression of libido.
2. Regression of energy (depression, lack of disposable energy).
3. Activation of unconscious contents (fantasies, complexes,
archetypal images, inferior function, opposite attitude,
shadow, anima/animus, etc.). Compensation.
4. Symptoms of neurosis (confusion, fear, anxiety, guilt, moods, extreme affect, etc.).
5. Unconscious or half-conscious conflict between ego and contents activated in the unconscious.
Inner tension. Defensive reactions.
6. Activation of the transcendent function, involving the self and archetypal patterns of wholeness.
7. Formation of symbols (numinosity, synchronicity).
8. Transfer of energy between unconscious contents and consciousness. Enlargement of the ego,
progression of energy.
9. Assimilation of unconscious contents. Individuation.
-
Good post. Thank you
-
Re: NEUROSIS
4. Symptoms of neurosis (confusion, fear, anxiety, guilt, moods, extreme affect, etc.).
Albatross -
your post prompted me to look up the definition of neurosis. Jung's theory and Horney's theory are listed here http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neurosis (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neurosis). Interesting.
To summarize in my own words, it is the idealistic view of self and circumstances, etc and pursuit thereof via compulsion / impulse in contrast to a realistic perception of the same. Is that close?
-
idealistic view of self and circumstances, etc and pursuit thereof via compulsion / impulse in contrast to a realistic perception of the same
If that is correct, it should have a symbol of my H wrapped around it. Impulsivity is an understatement in his world ::) ::)
-
SEPARATION
1. Difficulty of adaptation. Little progression of libido.
2. Regression of energy (depression, lack of disposable energy). - FOG !
THERE IS PERSONA DIVIDED FROM EGO - DISSOLUTION OF PERSONA - EGO / PERSONA SEPARATED
BEGINNING OF POSSIBLE INDIVIDUATION
LIMINALITY - POSSIBLE ESCAPE AND AVOID
3. Activation of unconscious contents (fantasies, complexes,
archetypal images, inferior function, opposite attitude,
shadow, anima/animus, etc.). Compensation. - POSSIBLE REPLAY ! - MERGER WITH SHADOW BEGINS
4. Symptoms of neurosis (confusion, fear, anxiety, guilt, moods, extreme affect, etc.). - DEEPER FOG !
5. Unconscious or half-conscious conflict between ego and contents activated in the unconscious.
Inner tension. Defensive reactions.
6. Activation of the transcendent function, involving the self and archetypal patterns of wholeness.
7. Formation of symbols (numinosity, synchronicity).
8. Transfer of energy between unconscious contents and consciousness. Enlargement of the ego,
progression of energy. POSSIBLE ACTING OUT - HIGH ENERGY REPLAY - BOMB DROP !
9. Assimilation of unconscious contents.
INDIVIDUATION CONTINUES - HAVE FURTHER STAGES
I have more time for syntheses this, will be hopefully soon.
-
Albatross - can you explain points 6,7 & 9?
This all happen in order?
-
Re: NEUROSIS
4. Symptoms of neurosis (confusion, fear, anxiety, guilt, moods, extreme affect, etc.).
Albatross -
your post prompted me to look up the definition of neurosis. Jung's theory and Horney's theory are listed here http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neurosis (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neurosis). Interesting.
To summarize in my own words, it is the idealistic view of self and circumstances, etc and pursuit thereof via compulsion / impulse in contrast to a realistic perception of the same. Is that close?
I have neurosis explained in REPLAY threads.
Albatross - can you explain points 6,7 & 9?
Yes, I can explain all in details and connect with MLC map.
This all happen in order?
Exactly.
-
Albatross, what moves them from stage to stage?
-
Albatross, what moves them from stage to stage?
Knowledge. They have to learn on hard way, banging with head against wall. MLCers are very stubborn. They refuse to change self. Most of them since end of puberty. The secret to getting to the 'next level' is: humility. That is hard for MLCers to learn being humble. Usually as I imagine is when their fantasy world start to crumble. Then they become humble. Like here on forum call AWAKENING (Conway)
-
Wow! that explains why this takes so loooonnnng! My h does refuse to change anything, and believes he has gotten to the bottom of the issues between he and I and there is no point in changing anything....doesn't even believe what I have done as changes is for real....Yep, that would fit. But my point, is if they don't reach that point, then they can stay there for ever? my H comes from a stubborn family anyway, and they are not self aware, and now he says he does not need to see the therapist anymore...hence my chances of him coming back seem to be getting smaller!!!
-
Would be interesting to see the kind of behaviours that are shown when they are approaching awakening. I am sure I saw something a while back - does anyone have/know the link?
-
Panda, I think that is good. I'd like to be able to start to view cyclings, and replay and changes, as I have started to really step back...I am so curious.
I would love to read more.
-
Just attaching to this thread, thank you Albatross this is all very helpful and interesting .
Callan
-
Wow! that explains why this takes so loooonnnng! My h does refuse to change anything, and believes he has gotten to the bottom of the issues between he and I and there is no point in changing anything....doesn't even believe what I have done as changes is for real....Yep, that would fit. But my point, is if they don't reach that point, then they can stay there for ever? my H comes from a stubborn family anyway, and they are not self aware, and now he says he does not need to see the therapist anymore...hence my chances of him coming back seem to be getting smaller!!!
You said something interesting here. Your H doesn't believe that your changes are real.....the odd thing is that one thing they have to believe is that our changes are real. They have to learn to trust us. In their sickened mind they believe and are hurt by what they believe is our betrayal of them and they don't trust us. That is why they don't trust our changes especially if recent. The only thing that can help with that is TIME. Once they start believing our changes are real they do slowly look at themselves. It isn't fair but they are the perceived "victims", its why they put the blame on us. It isn't logical or anything but it is very real to them. I think that is why as we focus on our self improvement, we become more self aware we radiate those vibes. As we let go of them, the pressure to keep their defenses up comes off and they become more open and trusting towards us. Its why the illogical step of letting go is so very effective with them. Besides letting go allows us to heal.
-
Jojo - you are so right. When I think back to how I behaved in the earlier days I am quite horrified and realised I actually made it worse - it gave him my behaviour to feed off of - he was in his glory. Now, I have however accepted this is the way it is and its a long road with no idea what will happen in the future. Quite alot of the time I have had to bite my tongue from saying things I would have in the past and let him get on with it - to a certain degree of course. There have been a few instances I have had to pull him into line but I think he has been pushing deliberately anyway.
Its amazing that they really don't trust us and forget all we did pre BD - my H hid loads of documents, got super paranoid and that seems to be lessening now. I sometimes do think he wonders why I have not clung to him, begging. Maybe he no longer cares anyway, who knows.
-
You said something interesting here. Your H doesn't believe that your changes are real.....the odd thing is that one thing they have to believe is that our changes are real. They have to learn to trust us. In their sickened mind they believe and are hurt by what they believe is our betrayal of them and they don't trust us. That is why they don't trust our changes especially if recent. The only thing that can help with that is TIME. Once they start believing our changes are real they do slowly look at themselves. It isn't fair but they are the perceived "victims", its why they put the blame on us. It isn't logical or anything but it is very real to them. I think that is why as we focus on our self improvement, we become more self aware we radiate those vibes. As we let go of them, the pressure to keep their defenses up comes off and they become more open and trusting towards us. Its why the illogical step of letting go is so very effective with them. Besides letting go allows us to heal.
This is so true! They have to learn to trust us (or trust us again, like they used to). And it starts with them realizing we have not been awful to them, have not ruined their lives, have not done much of anything to make them feel like the victims they do.
In the last couple of weeks, as my detachment has really improved, the MLC monologue I'm hearing has shifted from, "You've never trusted me in all these years" to "I need to work on my trust issues. I don't trust myself."
I think (but am not sure) that my growing detachment has helped to allow this new insight to emerge. I got tired of the "You've never trusted me all these years" accusations and started tuning them out.
You keep making your wonderful changes and let H make his (or not).
Peace,
WH
-
Dissolution of the Persona
- Firstly, one has to become aware of the Persona.
- Secondly, one must dissolve the Persona.
Dissolution of the Persona is a key transition in our development, and thus requires us to ‘separate’ from those qualities of the Persona that we worked so hard to develop and ‘mistook’ to be the qualities of our ‘self’. Dissolution of the Persona is not only about being able to take off the mask, but more importantly, being able to hang up the mask, while having the ability to put one on when necessary (i.e. social necessity) - though entirely at one’s own bidding.
At end of SEPARATION phase MLCer have separated ego and persona. Trough process of separation he become aware of persona as part of ego and it is a way different of ego. So, MLCer knows that their persona does not work anymore they decide to kill it. Bold text up said that. They still use it, but they know inside self that is MASK not persona for them anymore. They probably hate own persona. Sure they should rebuild it as better one, but they haven't clue how should look like.
Like transforming an oil painting to a mirror. Differentiating one’s own consciousness from the previous personal identities (Persona) creates a conscious wherein new objects of consciousness are no longer subject to subconscious projections and therefore this new found objectivity saves the subject from being at the mercy of the reactive mechanism.
Reactive mechanism = unconscious automation of the Persona.
For instance, if there is a spider on your shoulder, and you don’t know it, it has no effect on you.
But once you’re
(1) conscious of it your mind instantaneously experiences:
2) perception
3) sensation
4) reaction.
That means You don't react as You did before, automatically.
Upon dissolution of the Persona, one now becomes an entirely different ‘being’. A being free to express one’s self without the shackles of the unconscious automation of the Persona. This period is marked by an unfamiliar silence. The volume of the voices becomes silent, but what one loses in identity, one gains in personal insight. This silence in the mind is ‘deafening’ so to speak, and one feels awake. The occurrence is somewhat similar to the initial experience of having your ears pop after they’ve been plugged for some time and you had no idea.
So, MLCer after dissolution of persona give up from own identity. He is nobody. He is cocoon. He does not know who is he, yet. He just pretend with mask (old persona). Covert depression. Separation phase, also somehow means disconnecting from everyone, the world. MLCer does not work anymore. His identity is not what he really is, but he does not know who he is. Scary ? Sure. He turn inward to find out who he really is.
TIP: You probably notice that Your MLCer not react on similar happening as he did before. They are changed, no automation as before, they respond instead react from ego, not persona.
Why MLCers feel EMPTY ? Because their persona was TICK and rest of ego deflated. So, releasing bigger part of own ego as worthless is some kind of suicide. Such kind of people strongly identify with persona = like whole Self, which is not true. So, he experience somehow as own death, emptiness. He have now tick persona which is worthless and deflated weak rest of ego. Imagine that ? Also usually with tick persona goes bigger distance between persona and rest of ego in therm of thinking. ie one thinks that he is persona, ego interface to the world.
-
If MLC is about regressing for some old issues from childhood, how do ow/OM figure? Have all these mlcers had something that happened that makes them think they need someone new? They all pick someone who is much younger than they are. Is there any to help them progress through the tunnel, as to help them realize they are adults and not a 25 year old looking for a lost love. How would you know when they have hit the point that they have their awakening and decide they don't ow or marriage as some stay or marry ow? From the different posts I have read, it seems Mlcrs that we're controlling have a harder time coming through, they have always equated love with control. So how to break the cycle ?
-
If MLC is about regressing for some old issues from childhood, how do ow/OM figure?
I believe that they have several OM/OW for who we don't know before bomb drop. It is all part of traveling trough time respectively. Some can be just friendly chatting, some as EA, and some PA.
Have all these mlcers had something that happened that makes them think they need someone new? They all pick someone who is much younger than they are.
So far I see here on forum majority have OM/OW from their Youth. Means similar ages as they are. If someone have much younger she or he is somehow copy of LBS.
Is there any to help them progress through the tunnel, as to help them realize they are adults and not a 25 year old looking for a lost love.
It is almost impossible to help them. They have to learn by them self, banging head against wall...
How would you know when they have hit the point that they have their awakening and decide they don't ow or marriage as some stay or marry ow?
It is very hard to know when awakening will happen, but if your MLCer awake, You will know that for sure. He will come to You and start to pursue You. OFC he will dump OW first.
From the different posts I have read, it seems Mlcrs that we're controlling have a harder time coming through, they have always equated love with control. So how to break the cycle ?
They are mess and can't cope with reality, so they need freedom for own journey. If LBS try to help, they feel it as controlling and we distract them from inner work. Usually they run even faster from us. You meant that MLCers are co-dependent and hallmark of co-dependents is controlling, controlling is for them love. But that not works for them anymore and they now identify infatuation with love...
I hope that I help a bit.
-
If MLC is about regressing for some old issues from childhood, how do ow/OM figure? Have all these mlcers had something that happened that makes them think they need someone new? They all pick someone who is much younger than they are. Is there any to help them progress through the tunnel, as to help them realize they are adults and not a 25 year old looking for a lost love.
Dreamer,
I believe that the MLCer needs the OW/OM because they are new, there is no history. A new relationship is typically non-judgemental which is what the MLCer needs: not to be judged. The MLCer can try out their new self without fear because the new OW/OM doesn't know the difference. I also don't believe that they are looking for love maybe a do over to right a wrong but love doesn't have anything to do with it.
-
Searching4~ you might very well be right!! :):) My H left 25 years ago..walked out on myself and our 2 babies. I feel it may have been a 1/4 life crisis that stemmed from child hood issues. But long story short, now this MLC has been going on for 3 years BD a few years prior and we are reconnecting and probably reconciling now ( still hard:):) ) Anyway we had a "blip" over the weekend and what came out of his mouth was monster and H stated he feels so guilty and has felt so guilty for so long! i answered with "probably for at least 25 years (indicating the time he left) and he answered YES! The last OW(#2 or #3 or who knows) he had EA with was going through marital issues and her H left and they were divorcing. I feel he was trying to step in and save her and her babies...she is the same age we were during the time he left me......... He was trying to make up for walking away all those years ago (in his own mind) No way of really knowing for sure I guess.
31
-
Wow! that explains why this takes so loooonnnng! My h does refuse to change anything, and believes he has gotten to the bottom of the issues between he and I and there is no point in changing anything....doesn't even believe what I have done as changes is for real....Yep, that would fit. But my point, is if they don't reach that point, then they can stay there for ever? my H comes from a stubborn family anyway, and they are not self aware, and now he says he does not need to see the therapist anymore...hence my chances of him coming back seem to be getting smaller!!!
You said something interesting here. Your H doesn't believe that your changes are real.....the odd thing is that one thing they have to believe is that our changes are real. They have to learn to trust us. In their sickened mind they believe and are hurt by what they believe is our betrayal of them and they don't trust us. That is why they don't trust our changes especially if recent. The only thing that can help with that is TIME. Once they start believing our changes are real they do slowly look at themselves. It isn't fair but they are the perceived "victims", its why they put the blame on us. It isn't logical or anything but it is very real to them. I think that is why as we focus on our self improvement, we become more self aware we radiate those vibes. As we let go of them, the pressure to keep their defenses up comes off and they become more open and trusting towards us. Its why the illogical step of letting go is so very effective with them. Besides letting go allows us to heal.
This struck a cord with me. I know I have changed a great deal in the past year or so. I am getting out and doing things that I have never done. H repeatedly says he can see that I have changed but he doesn't know if I have changed because I want to or because I feel I have to. I realise that only time will show him (arghh, that time thing again!), but I need to work on the detaching and letting go.
-
Continuing on with the trust issue....it came back to me recently that H told me that he had seen changes and appreciated them, but he said it was not right I was changing for HIM. I did reply it was for ME (though early on it was def for him, I tried to be what he wanted out of blind fear and panic).
It is my MIL who reported to me that H said he did not believe or trust any change was for real and that things would go back to the way they were...well that was like a red flag to a bul....I tend to rise to challenges, especially when my MIL is concerned!!!
So I listed all the tings H said about me: control, pursue, fixer, initiator, not listening, blablabla..some are valid and I decided: change, for me, because if it's H or someone else or even my children, I can improve and stop certain habits.
My problem, is H, is no longer here, so how do MLCers see changes when they are not there....any views on that?
-
PG When I saw H the time before last, I was in tears as he left, and I can picture him walking through the front door and I was sobbing.
When I saw him last week, we smiled ::), we hugged ::), and I walked away to go and wait while he ate with the kids. When they were done, I didn't go back to see him in the restaurant, I met the kids and even though he was inside, I didn't go, nor did I text him or call. We left and went home, all relieved it was done, and there he was, left sitting alone in the restaurant, and we were on our way as if he didn't even exist.
As well, I used to email him once in a while about needing money for bills. I don't even do that now as I was sick of begging. There is zero communication now, even with children, and mainly because he doesn't want to pay a penny, but mostly, he has zero interest. That being said, I do not contact him, and how funny that when he left and became Mr. Silent, that is exactly how we are treating him now as we've had so much pain, but we are moving forward bit by bit, and we have nothing to do with him.
-
But do you want him back?
-
PG - Nope! Not as he is, that's for sure. He is not the man we cried for and missed after he left. That man has gone. Who he will become, who knows, and if he will want to come home, who knows that either. If and when that happens, I will see then, but until that time, I will live my life and take care of our children.
I would rather be alone that with the man he has become. As well, I'm tired of it being about him, and helping him, and fixing him, and worrying about him. Enough.
-
But do you want him back?
PG - do you want him back the way he is or do you want the complete man back? I want my spouse back but I want the better version that will emerge when he has finished baking. Until then I want a better me so I focus on letting him bake, knowing he is in MLC and making me who I want to be. I do know that broken me and broken him won't a healthy relationship make. We have to heal and become strong enough to withstand the drama that will come when they realize they messed up and come home, because they won't be fully baked. But if we become all we can be we are ready for that time and we will decide if it is right for us to have them back or not.
-
Albatross -
your post prompted me to look up the definition of neurosis. Jung's theory and Horney's theory are listed here http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neurosis (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neurosis). Interesting.
To summarize in my own words, it is the idealistic view of self and circumstances, etc and pursuit thereof via compulsion / impulse in contrast to a realistic perception of the same. Is that close?
You summarized it great IMO.
Karen Horney summarize it in this sentence:
"In essence, neurosis is a distorted way of looking at the world and at oneself, determined by compulsive needs rather than by a genuine interest in the world as it is."
Bold words are heavy. They see subjectively a way different world from objective. Also have distorter view of self. Yea they have needs = what they think to make them happy. Like addicts, they need fuel to operate.
-
Why MLCers feel EMPTY ? Because their persona was TICK and rest of ego deflated. So, releasing bigger part of own ego as worthless is some kind of suicide. Such kind of people strongly identify with persona = like whole Self, which is not true. So, he experience somehow as own death, emptiness. He have now tick persona which is worthless and deflated weak rest of ego. Imagine that ? Also usually with tick persona goes bigger distance between persona and rest of ego in therm of thinking. ie one thinks that he is persona, ego interface to the world.
One thinks that he is Self = Ego. Persona is tick, greater then rest of Ego. People who have small differences persona - rest of Ego and they are aware of Shadow and living in balance Shadow - Light, ie. Ego - Subconsciousness they are fully realized people. They show feelings, they are genuine, unique, appear to others more alive, spontaneous, assertive even charismatic. In other hand people who have low self esteem, conflict avoiders, people who does not express feelings, co-dependent and so on, have big difference between Persona and rest of Ego. So, we can talk about true self = Rest of Ego and false self = Persona. So, they actually live double life, showing trough Persona false self. And they aren't happy about self, they avoid confrontations because of fear of abandoning or other issues, means they have all the time negative feelings which then goes to the Shadow. Suppressing bad emotions, on that way build up negative energy in Shadow.
So, You have total imbalance, big Shadow, weak rest of the Ego depleted - tiny, false tick Persona. Such people identify Self with rest of Ego. Painful ? Yes. They have a lot repressed bad feelings, bad memories.
That can operate when You are younger, You have more life energy (psychic energy - Libido), also Shadow is lower in beginnings, but in time Shadow build up. And after dissolution of persona bigger part of Ego died, one lost identity, feel empty. They do not know who they are anymore. They believe that they are Ego minus Persona. That is small depleted, weak. Very scary. It is like You have two conciseness, two very different conciseness people in one. After dissolution of persona, remain weak one with low self esteem, pathetic one, scared one.
From one side You have big Shadow and form another side phoney Persona = Mask. Tiny weak rest of Ego is in the middle and one believe that part is HE. He is between hammer and anvil...
-
Thank you albatross. Waiting for that dissolution!!! And finding jojo, no I don't want the person he is. I want the guy I married, cool ticket in a band!!!! So cool!
-
Thanks Albatross another interesting read .
Callan
-
How one missed placed word can confuse your understanding.
I presume TICK = Thick.
So now I know
Ego = Self ( The person we loved)
Persona =Mask they hide behind (also Monster)
Shadow = (Bad feelings, resentment from the past that they are running from)
Please correct me if I’m wrong otherwise I think I’ve got it.
Now I can re read everything (I’ve even drawn myself a little diagram to help).
Thanks again
Albatross
-
Consciousness is the quality or state of being aware of an external object or something within oneself.
The unconscious mind (or the unconscious) consists of the processes in the mind that occur automatically and are not available to introspection, and include thought processes, memory, affect, and motivation.
The psyche is the totality of the human mind, conscious, and unconscious. Jung called psyche Self.
The persona, for Swiss psychologist Carl Jung, was the social face the individual presented to the world—"a kind of mask, designed on the one hand to make a definite impression upon others, and on the other to conceal the true nature of the individual". Persona is part of ego.
Contrary to a Freudian conceptualization of shadow, therefore, the Jungian shadow often refers to all that lies outside the light of consciousness, and may be positive or negative.
(http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/b/be/Structural-Iceberg.svg)
-
If anyone sees a book about this, but "for dummies", please let me know as I continue to try and understand it, but don't get much further than :o :o :o :-\ :-\ :-\ Albatross, you do such a great job at explaining it all, and I love the thread. It is so fascinating. I just need to understand how to understand it. ;) I'm working on it. Thank you Albert! ;D ;D
-
Snowdrop~ that made me laugh "out loud" cause I kind of feel the same :)
31andcounting
-
*nods in agreement with Sd and 31*
-
If anyone sees a book about this, but "for dummies", please let me know as I continue to try and understand it, but don't get much further than :o :o :o :-\ :-\ :-\ Albatross, you do such a great job at explaining it all, and I love the thread. It is so fascinating. I just need to understand how to understand it. ;) I'm working on it. Thank you Albert! ;D ;D
Snowdrop~ that made me laugh "out loud" cause I kind of feel the same :)
31andcounting
*nods in agreement with Sd and 31*
OK I will try to simplify all of this for dummies. ;D No hard feelings. ;D
-
Hi Snowdrop,
I was going to say the same thing about a version for dummies but I'm persevering and I think I'm getting there.
Hey Albatross,
Based on my understanding now from what I've read, I can see that I met and fell in love with the Ego (self) but married the persona (Mask, Monster) as this version of W has been in evidence for a very long time. Even family members noticed this as they used to say to me that W had more FRONT than ******** (local seaside town). Meaning her personality was a front and we were seeing not the real person.
All good reading, great trying to understand it.
Lanzo
-
Lanzo,
The way I understand it is everyone has a persona.....MLC or not.....which is the face they present to the world which is a mixture of a part of who they really are but mostly who they believe they SHOULD be or who they think they need to be in order for the world (or whomever it might be they are interacting with) to like them. The persona is a mask but it is not monster.
With respect to the MLCer, the mask is the persona that the MLCer presents to the world to hide the monster who has taken him/her over. Monster is usually in control of an MLCer, whether or not they happen to be monstering, but the mask will make the MLCer look like a perfectly normal, rationally functioning, lucid human being. MLCers are careful to wear the mask when they are hiding their MLC....at work, with their new friends, etc. But the mask will often come off when dealing with the LBS and then the alien will show him/her MLC self and maybe even monster at the LBSer.
-
OK I will try to simplify all of this for dummies. No hard feelings.
No, that's okay Albatross, thank you, it's me that needs to change, not you. You are very good at this. Sad thing is I wouldn't even know what kind of book for dummies I'd be looking for. Not that there even is one.
Every time I look at this thread, I get all excited thinking I've got it this time ;D, and by line 2, I'm lost, every single time :o ::) Then I go back, a-n-d.......I....r-e-a-d........i-t......v-e-r-y..........s-l-ow-w-w-l-yyyy........and......nothing, nothing whatsoever do I understand. So I do a big ::), give it a quick glance over, look at all the other replies that know EXACTLY what is going on, do another :o, and...... move onto the next post by someone elsle ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D
-
With respect to the MLCer, the mask is the persona that the MLCer presents to the world to hide the monster who has taken him/her over. Monster is usually in control of an MLCer, whether or not they happen to be monstering, but the mask will make the MLCer look like a perfectly normal, rationally functioning, lucid human being. MLCers are careful to wear the mask when they are hiding their MLC....at work, with their new friends, etc. But the mask will often come off when dealing with the LBS and then the alien will show him/her MLC self and maybe even monster at the LBSer.
Well that's very creepy. Thank goodness he left ;D ;D ;D
-
Hi Snowdrop,
I was going to say the same thing about a version for dummies but I'm persevering and I think I'm getting there.
Hey Albatross,
Based on my understanding now from what I've read, I can see that I met and fell in love with the Ego (self) but married the persona (Mask, Monster) as this version of W has been in evidence for a very long time. Even family members noticed this as they used to say to me that W had more FRONT than ******** (local seaside town). Meaning her personality was a front and we were seeing not the real person.
All good reading, great trying to understand it.
Lanzo
Thanks, Lanzo. Made it to "met and fell inl ove with the.....", and done. ;)
I'm going.
-
Hi TLZ,
Thanks for that, I don’t think you have contradicted my understanding. In fact going off what you said , it would point to the fact that my family members were seeing through the persona that W presenting to the world and it was all a front she was putting on. Actually I could see it too that W puts on this front to the world, but I thought she was being true to me, (well apparently not).
The good thing about reading this thread on Replay is that I’m getting a better idea of when W started to turn off me, and scarily it’s a long time ago shortly after we got married, and possibly it could have been before that.
As I said before all good reading. (Keep up Snowdrop)
Lanzo
-
my family members were seeing through the persona that W presenting to the world and it was all a front she was putting on. Actually I could see it too that W puts on this front to the world, but I thought she was being true to me, (well apparently not).
The good thing about reading this thread on Replay is that I’m getting a better idea of when W started to turn off me, and scarily it’s a long time ago shortly after we got married, and possibly it could have been before that.
Hmmmm..... I used to tell H he was so fake at times when it came to dealing with people outside of the home. I think I did see the "real" him, which was often an angry man, who expected the kids to take sides in arguments, etc., and wouldn't stop until he had the last word. His mom is fake too, and I saw right through her from the beginning, and chose not to have a relationship with her, on top of her ignoring our children - how lovely she is ::) She knew I had her figured out.
As for H. Now I wonder. Very confusing. Did I fall for the same facade many years ago? Then again, I did see the real him, and I did comment each time he was fake, and would call him on it. I couldn't stand it. Could this be the real him that he is now, and he is truly happy, more happy than with me, as he can be himself, and OW is a mirror of who he is now, so they truly feel like soul mates? Maybe his 22 years or so with me was the facade, and this is the real him.
Maybe not? Who knows. Or is the mask he is wearing now, different? He has done a total 180 and acting like a supersized version of MLC, MLC overload.
Okay, now I am going before I need hospitalizing for my state of confusion. I will leave this to the people who know what they are talking about. I ain't one of them ;)
-
RCR on FaceBook page of Hero Spouse November 7.
Honestly, I think that in MLC it seems as though the issues are too deep to be resolved in this lifetime and wondering about the duplicity is normal. It's part of the process of integrating the Shadow. There are several opposing personas clanking around in there and his job is to figure out which are par to who he really is and which are just part of a coping façade. He doesn’t know. He needs to meet them, get to know them, test some of them out and then make decisions about which parts to discard. It's a big process.
-
Albatross, if h is with ow allthe time, how will he be able to progress through the tunnel as h is never alone with his thoughts
-
Albatross, if h is with ow allthe time, how will he be able to progress through the tunnel as h is never alone with his thoughts
Good question, but MLCers are in great depression of mid life. It is mother of all depressions. Depression turn people inward. They are covertly depressed. When someone is depressed their thoughts running 200 m/h. So, they processing no matter what they are with OW/OM.
-
I have actually seen the different personas appearing. From a small child with 'food' problems, to teenage, to the adult who displays characteristics I haven't seen before - I hope he decides to keep that part because he is rather calm.
Fascinating stuff.
-
H was telling me recently about how he has been feeling; during his teenage years he did pretty much any drug he could get his hands on (I think that I have mentioned this before). He said that when he was high that he would want to interact with people and 'mess with peoples heads'. He described it as chatting up someone he didn't know about anyhting he could think of (as a way of entertaining himself, I think). He said that unless he was high he didn't have a desire to interact with people in general; this is the H that I have known, he has never been very interested in meeting new people or friends and pretty much tolerated being around family because it was expected. He said that over the past 6 months or so he has noticed the desire to interact with people again like he did when he was high (he is not using any drugs/alcohol).
I am seeing this as straight up regression but am confused about the being high part as he isn't now. Is it just that the feelings are associated with when he was a teenager?
-
Sorry for hi-jacking.........but just wanted to say.........Albatross.......I really......really needed to read this. Thank you for helping me today.
Quote from: Dreamer on Today at 07:28:26 AM
Albatross, if h is with ow allthe time, how will he be able to progress through the tunnel as h is never alone with his thoughts
Good question, but MLCers are in great depression of mid life. It is mother of all depressions. Depression turn people inward. They are covertly depressed. When someone is depressed their thoughts running 200 m/h. So, they processing no matter what they are with OW/OM.
-
I am seeing this as straight up regression but am confused about the being high part as he isn't now. Is it just that the feelings are associated with when he was a teenager?
Oh he's high all right....high on adrenalin and hormones and fantasy and escape and who knows what else. Those are his drugs of choice now. He doesn't need the crap he used as a teenager. You think he's not using? Think again. It's an addiction all right. it won't last. It never does....and the withdrawal won't be fun.
-
I am seeing this as straight up regression but am confused about the being high part as he isn't now. Is it just that the feelings are associated with when he was a teenager?
Oh he's high all right....high on adrenalin and hormones and fantasy and escape and who knows what else. Those are his drugs of choice now. He doesn't need the crap he used as a teenager. You think he's not using? Think again. It's an addiction all right. it won't last. It never does....and the withdrawal won't be fun.
LOL :) :) :) Too funny Twilightzone
I found it very interesting that he could articulate what he is feeling; now if he could only see it for what it is. Looking back after this conversation I wonder if H was ever without an 'addiction/fantasy'. All through his teenage years he did drugs and got drunk (he could never understand what it meant to drink casually; actually everything he does is a bit obessive), not sure why the drugs stopped but the drinking didn't stop until he was facing jail time; apparently his freedom was more important than his drinking ::) This is when I met him; did I become his next addiction/fantasy/escape? It is quite fascinating when we are able to step back a little, we see things more objectively.
-
Wouldnt m h ant to stay with ow because she is very young has no mind of her and will let h treat her however. She just wants someone to be with her, and h has said he wants her for the rest of his life
-
Dreamer, I would say, sure he does, for now. She has an expiry date. He is using her, although maybe unaware, for this part of his journey.
I read somewhere how long the thrill lasts in newly weds, and it isnt that long, so wonder if the same for MLC, depending on the interaction between them and OW. More exciting the more they are apart.
Even in healthy marriages, it evens out, so when he progresses, he will no longer need her at some point, and out she goes. or she might dump him, and he will find another if he hasnt progressed. Something he needs to do.
-
If replay went on for years before BD, is it considered in the time frame, or is it an approximate time after BD.
My H had a few attempted leavings, and as he kindly reminded me, "you didnt change after the last time i left" ::), as one of the reasons for leaving this time.
Do wonder as well if he maybe just wanted out all these times, and the last time, he just knew it. All LBS script, I know, as we doubt at times. If it really was to hard to be with us, then how great for all of us that hes gone.
hes a lost soul, as they all are. His time with OW is now about 10 or 11 months, so honeymoon phase must be coming to an end. Wow, wouldnt want to be them.. other side is maybe they are very happy? Oh well, good luck to them. Doesnt matter as long as they leave us alone.
-
If replay went on for years before BD, is it considered in the time frame, or is it an approximate time after BD.
Snowdrop, I have wondered this too. Looking back, my H was showing replay activities long before BD, I just didn't know what to make of it ??? Activities slowly started around spring/summer 2011; BD was 12/2012 so he has been at it for 2 years (?) I believe he was looking for OW since spring/summer 2011 but didn't find a willing participant until November 2012, BD was roughly 5-6 weeks after he met OW.
-
Snowdrop, so far I find infatuation between new people hold at most 1,5 a year. Hormones and other chemical crap... How MLCer is mess, after year infatuation fade MLCer will start to see things in OW which he does not like it, also OW will start to spot many things in broken MLCer which she don't like. Even so, OW will start to feel MLCer depression, so that relationship is doomed. For sure can be so much problems before hormones come down and if those problems higher then hormones then that relationship can snap much earlier.
-
Searching, Albatross
H showed signs of narcissim, and a definite mask was worn throught the time together in certain situations when dealing withnothers, Drove me nuts as I value honesty, and it was so fake.
H and OW have only lived together permanently for 2 or3 months, and since they met and married, had a long distance relationship, so forever in the honeymoon phase. Now he has moved hundreds of miles to be with her and her family, friends, etc. so no-one knows the real him at all, and theres no-one to ever confront him, only himself, if ever.
They see their infatuation as true love :o
Yes, H and I had that many years back when first meeting, but it progressed naturally, no "owning" of each other, etc. Not the same now, but Im sure fits in with MLC. What a mess. Knwoing they got married so soon after meeting says a lot.
-
Knwoing they got married so soon after meeting says a lot.
Seems that OW have some BP disorder :D They jump in such fast marriages, he is her knight savior.
-
H showed signs of narcissim, and a definite mask was worn throught the time together in certain situations when dealing withnothers, Drove me nuts as I value honesty, and it was so fake.
I can totally relate to this. One of the things that I am realizing about my H is that his rigidness is a defense mechanism. You mention valuing honesty, I too put a lot value in this as well and up until MLC so did H. However, H almost put too much value on it. There would times that he would say that I was not being truthful when I forgot to mention something; I had truly forgotten but the obessiveness about being truthful was over the top, it left no room for human error. Early on I had interperted this as a noble characteristic (who wouldn't want someone that was honest) but I am now learning that the honesty that he claimed was a mask or maybe a projection. My H is one of those persons that if you don't word the question correctly, even though they know what you asking, they justify that they did not lie, like a loophole.
H and OW have only lived together permanently for 2 or3 months, and since they met and married, had a long distance relationship, so forever in the honeymoon phase. Now he has moved hundreds of miles to be with her and her family, friends, etc. so no-one knows the real him at all, and theres no-one to ever confront him, only himself, if ever.
That is the point of MLC; they don't want to confront themselves, they don't want anyone to know the real him because they are ashamed of the things that they have done. My H has commented on several occasions that he can't believe the things that he has done but at no time has he acknowledged that he shouldn't being doing it. Sometimes it is like an excuse he using to behave badly. This is how they continue to live in escape and avoid.
-
Yes, and her provider too, as since then, all his money earned, has gone to them, even when he was here working. All the money goes to them, and not a penny to his family.
he said she invited him on vacation, where they married.
-
Albatross, time for a new Replay thread if you please. Thank you.
-
Albatross, on Friday my h came and took his favorite chair to ow house. Today he came in and seemed happy. I said why did u sneak in and get chair, h smiled and said I have to have a chair. I replied ow has a couch. H said I wanted my own chair. I said when u left u left those things. H then stated he needed gd clothes and shoe size for Xmas presents then gave me ow phone number in case I needed to get a hold of him. He is still trying to tell everyone that ow is a good person. She is good to h but has been snakey to everyone else as she was our dtrs best friend. Can he really be in love with her and wanting to stay with her?
-
Albatross, on Friday my h came and took his favorite chair to ow house. Today he came in and seemed happy. I said why did u sneak in and get chair, h smiled and said I have to have a chair. I replied ow has a couch. H said I wanted my own chair. I said when u left u left those things. H then stated he needed gd clothes and shoe size for Xmas presents then gave me ow phone number in case I needed to get a hold of him. He is still trying to tell everyone that ow is a good person. She is good to h but has been snakey to everyone else as she was our dtrs best friend. Can he really be in love with her and wanting to stay with her?
Sure he can be in love with her, it is chemical, anima projected "love". But as we all know love is A LOT complex then "in love".
NEW REPLAY - #4 TOPIC (http://mlcforum.theherosspouse.com/index.php?topic=4256.0)