Midlife Crisis: Support for Left Behind Spouses
Archives => Archived Topics => Topic started by: in it on October 03, 2013, 05:11:06 PM
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I've found a lot of support on this forum ..both women and men. But a lot of online educational information about infidelity involves men cheating on women. My question is: What about the women who cheat on men?
This must devastate these men on this board. I thought it would be good to start a post of things that can help men pick themselves up from this kind of betrayal.
I thought this blog/website informative. Gentlemen... please look a on the internet and post an address that may help express HOW YOU FEEL?
Look at the one below this and see what you think. Good or bad say what you think,
http://www.artofmanliness.com/2008/01/10/increase-your-manly-confidence-overnight/
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Hey Init,
The confidence and Ego really does take a kicking in the aftermath of an affair/Divorce etc, so us guys really do need some tips to pick ourselves up.
My nieces started me off on changing my image and wardrobe as I have let it become tired, scruffy and out of date. One bought me a new shirt and said “let this be the start of Lanzo’s new day wear collection, now go and smarten yourself”. Now I spent a lot of time looking through on sale items at place like Asda/Walmart and similar such stores, it doesn’t cost too much to change you image.
I’m also back with the fresh shower gel and creams nothing too metro sexual but enough to feel fresh and add to looking good. (The girls keep telling me I’m a good looking guy and will be a catch once all divorce issues are cleared).
Last one for the guys, Ear and nasel hair, its easy to let them get out of control and that can detract from the appearance, I bought a new gadget that has trimmed back the excess. All basic stuff and are things we need to attend to because we are being thrown back in the market whether we like it or not.
Init,
A very good thread to start I’ll try to post some man making links & threads.
Guys on the forum please read and contribute, let us make this our upbeat thread.
Lanzo
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PLEASE DO Lanzo.
This helps us also and it's good if the women read these articles and if something strikes a chord for them (even if it's to opposite of what has been said) everybody can have an opinion without suffering repercussions.
Address the article specifically and what part you may or may not agree with and why.
I agree hygiene and appearance for men and woman is very important. Style helps also.
I met a guy who may have lost a date because of it. But also because he said "He would be a perfect gentleman if I went out with him; but I could feel free to attack him" :o :o
Sorry been there done that got the T-shirt. Not interested with a man that lacks confidence.
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Oh I forgot to mention back in August I had a date, first in 20 years, lovely meal and chat with a lady off a dating site who happened to live locally to me. I'm not being big headed but she was absolutely blown away by my charm , manor and dare I say confidence and I was just being me talking about things I do and have done (I've travelled the world in my job). So I do know that I have the confidence, but it has just been eroded away over the years by W and our sitch.
Back to the date nice time, nice lady and she sent me a few serious texts afterwards appreciating the date and wanting to see me more but I realised I'm not ready for dating let alone a relationship which she was hinting at. I still need time to heal and grow and build myself back up using tips like these.
http://roastedpinebark.hubpages.com/hub/10-Ways-To-Be-A-More-Manly-Man
Lanzo
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Listen, listen, listen to what a girl has to say and respect her, you can't go wrong with that.
Do NOT forget to ask and show interest in what SHE likes does and is about also. It's not all about you.
I know what you mean about needing to heal. And I've found out if I contact them...apparently it's a huge turn off.
I got in touch with someone who I really felt a good connection with the first time this happened. I contacted him again in July to let him know that I had been kicked out once again.
We went to dinner last time. He was respectful etc. Didn't really cry on his shoulder asked him all kinds of stuff about him. What were his days like etc.
I thought things were good. Shared a piece of chocolate cake for dessert.
He's never been married. Three jobs a couple of sisters and an aging mother ( who doesn't live with him) His dad died a couple of years ago.
The woman he was dating ( just sex so he said) didn't go to the funeral been with her about 6 years.
I haven't heard from him so whatever..guess I shouldn't have called him either. Go figure...
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http://www.drlaura.com/b/Building-Your-Mans-Confidence/-600469560326881601.html
What do you guys think about this??
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http://www.drlaura.com/b/Building-Your-Mans-Confidence/-600469560326881601.html
What do you guys think about this??
Makes me think that being single and independent is far healthier than being married.
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Listen, listen, listen to what a girl has to say and respect her, you can't go wrong with that.
Well, you can go wrong doing that if what she says is not worthy of respect.
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Well then SHE has the problem...correct?
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Some women can't recognize it...some have never had it to begin with. So when some one shows them some it can be misinterpreted as LACK of interest.
That's one of my problems I process it as someone not being on the same page I might be in a relationship. Dating, married, divorced, or other wise.
Things have always gone at the speed of light for me and I'm not very patient ( as most of you here know)
Respect for me doesn't mean having someone listen constantly while I talk; I want them to TRUST me and share. Let me have an opinion also. Try to understand and see some of my side of the story. Even if you don't agree at least respect it by not trying to "talk me out of it".
The comment about the single and married thing Honour..
I'm ROTFLMAO!!! It's a well known fact men usually live longer being married than single...wonder why that is?? ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D
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http://www.myrkothum.com/how-to-build-self-confidence/
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http://www.myrkothum.com/life-advice/
For you Dad's whether you are raising your children during this difficult time or only see them from time to time.
Either way this isn't easy for you.....
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It's a well known fact men usually live longer being married than single...wonder why that is?? ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D
Better to burn out than fade away.
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My, my, hey hey...
I hope you are trying to be intentionally funny because I'm in stitches right now.... ;D ;D ;D USE AN emoticon will ya?!
Are you a Neil Young Fan also? Hey rust never sleeps!
But I'd rather wear out than rust out... ;D ;D ;D
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I'm ROTFLMAO!!! It's a well known fact men usually live longer being married than single...wonder why that is?? ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D
Sure, but that is true only if he haven't MLC woman, otherwise live less then single men.
;D ;D
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This is TRUE...guess I forgot about that minor detail! ::) I understand this has got to kill you guys also.
I just wish there was some way to assure you that this is going to be OK either way it goes.
And a lot of you are TOO young to give up the benefits of a relationship that might be a better fit; whether it's with the W you have or the W you might lose or the W that comes back if YOU want her when she does .
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in it - Thanks for this topic. Will be reading up some of this over the weekend.
I agree, this is going to be OK. Peace.
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Your Welcome Sleepless
It just seems that most of the time everything is the info that it's cheating husbands and not a whole lot on wives.
I can tell you pretty much for a fact that womens emotional needs are pretty much the forefront and most important. And sorry fellas, but most women HAVE TO TALK.
It's how WE process things. If we're talking and your not listening, dismissing, or any other disrespectful kind of thing..the bedroom will SUFFER believe me.
Now damage is done on both ends of these relationships somehow. It's up to US to deal with whatever it is that keeps the walls up..keeps the control up...feeds the fear and keeps us apart.
AND that starts with US not them. Be the man YOU would want a woman to be with.
If you have daughters what kind of man would you want them to pick? Be that man.
Don't worry about your W, exW, or whoever it is that drives you nuts is acting like. That's NO reflection on you..even if it feels like it. I know it's hard for men to understand this. They don't want to be "the bad guy".
Don't let a woman treat you like $hit.
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Thanks for posting this "in it". Whether man or woman, after BD, affair, divorce, the self esteem and self confidence takes a besting for sure. It takes time and effort to heal. We all agree that the self confident man described in the link is most attractive to men and women. It is healthy and the way to be. It is what society has dictated to us what a man should be like.
What would you imagine this self confident man would do if his wife cheats on him, and tells him she doesn't love him and acts like a teenager? My guess is that he would kick her to the curb and find a new wife.
I also agree that most woman like to talk and for men to listen. When I first knew something was wrong, I asked xW to please talk to me, I told her that I read that most women like to talk, so why wouldn't she talk.... She said she hates to talk and she isn't like most woman.... And she is right about that.
Yes, being happier and living longer in marriages do not apply to ours!! It's said that married men are the happiest, then single and lastly separated.... Married to an MLCer definitely will fall into last place, I am sure that the stress from this Crisis took a few years from my life.... Perhaps more....
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I have found male confidence can be restored from simply bonding with men. Married with kids for 20 years, my social life had become just hanging with other couples. Maybe once a month or so a rare Guys night. Now I make time every week to hang out with guys. I find there's nothing complicated about this. Turns out many of my buddies are in the same boat and really miss guy time too so it's easy. I can usually text a few guys from the bar and find someone free to hang out for a couple of hours.
I don't know why this works. The formula seems so simple and yet it is quite an effective way to get started.
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I love the comapny of men..although it's not a really gret example I always envied Shirley McClaine her "in" with those "guys" in Vegas ( way before my time though).
Just something casual and easy you could kind of be "in" with when you wanted to. Like some kind of boys club; to be accepted and not looked at sexually.
I always wondered what men talk about..I mean really do you guys ever talk about how to make relationships any better? Or is it all sports and hobbies etc?
What would you imagine this self confident man would do if his wife cheats on him, and tells him she doesn't love him and acts like a teenager? My guess is that he would kick her to the curb and find a new wife.
Yep- only the last word wouldn't be "wife"..it would be "life".
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http://www.drlaura.com/b/Building-Your-Mans-Confidence/-600469560326881601.html (http://www.drlaura.com/b/Building-Your-Mans-Confidence/-600469560326881601.html)
What do you guys think about this??
Makes me think that being single and independent is far healthier than being married.
;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D
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http://www.howaboutwe.com/date-report/587-what-sex-means-to-men-6-deep-dark-secrets/
Anybody here want to give thier opinion as to if this guy has any idea of what he's talking about?
Again does any of this reflect confidence IYHO or help in anyway to instill it anyone here?
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That's so true. If you're about 25. Seriously the dude who wrote that has some issues and probably will have an MLC of his own in about 15 years. I hate articles like that.
As above was stated, a confident man would tell his wife who cheats and is no longer in love with him that she should move on. That's true from multiple perspectives. A confident man may hurt from those revelations but he's also not afraid of what the world has in store nor to be on his own or to take the challenges of fatherhood by himself.
A confident man also recognizes his shortcomings and is honest about them with himself and works on them. He's also not afraid to do what's right in his course of events whether that means standing for his marriage or throwing in the towel and moving on.
Confidence is many things. Mostly IMHO it's about not really caring what other people think say or feel about me. I'm good with me. That's all that really matters.
Yeah so that's the simple version. A 250 word article about how we base our confidence around sex doesn't cut it. I've gotten more confidence over things I've failed at sometimes than been successful in. It's what you learn from each that matters. And then the application to make you better.
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I'm impressed Zendog..very.
I think older men should write these articles. I think a lot of magazines etc are written and geared for younger people. That our generation somehow got lost in what is being dealt with now.
The exmlcer always refereed to himself as a dinosaur. I refused to buy into that. Just because you aren't twenty doesn't mean you give up TRYING TO HAVE a meaningful relationship or enhance it for yourself.AND your partner.
I know how sensitive ED is for most men. This drove me nuts as if a man really understood just how much women have the sensitivity need to help or support them to deal with this? They wouldn't feel so vulnerable.
I know it isn't all about sex but if that's a major way that men FEEL they can make a connection. Why on God's green earth would they deprive themselves of POSSIBLY being able to experience that again by exploring every avenue to do it?
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http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/09/30/mens-health-divorce_n_4018432.html
This is why the POSITIVE is so important right now for some of you.
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I agree with Zendog for the most part although I do recognize there are other factors in play. I just think things are different with MLC. I'm more willing to fight for my marriage and my family knowing that her infidelity sprung from some other broken part of herself. It's emasculating either way, MLC or not. Infidelity tries to tell me that my wife doesn't think I'm "man" enough for her. It's up to me to reject it. Easier knowing she is broken. I don't know how I would deal with it if she was in her right state of mind.
Below is a comment from another website (that has expired) that sums up how I healed from my wife's infidelity. Well, maybe "healed" is the wrong tense. Past tense would signify that my healing is complete when it is far from it. ;D
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"The people in MLC just simply don't know who they are, and they have to get rid of everything to try and find themselves."
This is the correct statement...it is never a case of want...it is a case of knowing who they are....if you don't know who you are then how in the devil will you know what you want? This is why MLCer's behavior is so erratic...they don't know who they are, but they are out there searching for what they want...it is impossible. They try on different identities and the one that they use with the OM seems to work to get what they want...AND it is NOT sex...it is the attention...the feeding of their ego.
To answer Hurtmans' question about "dropping their panties for the OM"...they are NOT dropping their panties for the sex....or for the need or want of sex or the act...it is all the attention that leads up to it that feeds their low self-esteem...they take part in the sex act to ensure that their egos will continue to be fed afterward...if this doesn't happen and the OM dumps them...this is why the women are destroyed...they can't believe this would happen to them...they are looking for the self-esteem fix...not the sex.
They have convinced themselves that the OM was in it for the emotion too...but reality sets in and they discover it was all physical...they have been used. At least this is true in the majority of cases...there may be some who have other addictions connected to the MLC...and then the W may be trying to feed both. as for how they can do this at the expense of the H, the children and the life they have been living...because it is exactly that life with the H and the children that has been sucking them dry and depleting their self-esteem to zero...at least that is what they rationalized, justified and blamed has caused their problems...it isn't. It is never right...it is wrong...but in this women's mind she believes she is justified...she is so desperate and lost that she will do anything to feel better, whole, alive again...she will even risk her Marriage and children.
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This makes perfect sense to me.
This is why I try to express to men that it's an emotional thing for women to have sex where men tend to use it ( for want of a better phrase) for a release.
It relieves stress that's for sure for BOTH people. BUT when the switch gets tuned off emotionally it's simply a physical act for a woman.
When it's turned on ( the emotional end) the sex means a great deal BUT these particular men that "home in on" the idea of a conquest or whatever use that for the physical. That's why we get so destroyed by it. We were tuned in ; they weren't.
I realize for men there pretty much has to require a physical ability in order for the act to occur so do woman have it a little easier in this department ..they SURE DO.
But believe me if you are having sex with an emotionally unplugged woman?
You might as well get a blow up doll it's going to be tuned in more than a woman who has pretty much gotten nothing emotionally in the way of communication from a man EXPRESSING HIMSELF TO HER about how THEY might be feeling. IMHO.
NOBODY is a mind reader.
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You might as well get a blow up doll it's going to be tuned in more than a woman who has pretty much gotten nothing emotionally in the way of communication from a man EXPRESSING HIMSELF TO HER about how THEY might be feeling. IMHO.
NOBODY is a mind reader.
Yes. This works both ways, though. I wish my wife had expressed herself to me but she shut me out and eventually kicked me out of her bedroom and then her life, saying I don't understand her. How can I understand when she deliberately made it impossible for her to be understood (by me)? Hiding resentments and secrets then putting on a mask when you get home will pretty much guarantee that you won't be understood.
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This is true...did you ever get angry when she tried to express herself? Or dismiss it? Or tell her it didn't make sense?
Did she ever not ever tell you how SHE felt?
If she didn't then you two had difficulty from the start in communication. If NOBODYS talking NOTHING is going to happen.
You have to think BACK before this bomb and how YOU may have acted that contributed to communicating if there was any. This goes for us women also.
If we with held how we felt WHY did we do this?
You must answer your own questions first you; KNOW the answers to those.
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This is true...did you ever get angry when she tried to express herself? Or dismiss it? Or tell her it didn't make sense?
Oh yeah. She tried to express herself a few times. I mostly dismissed it because she reasoned like a 16 year old. I just dismissed it because my wife is one of the most intelligent, expressive and passionate GROWN WOMEN i've ever known. Every blue moon she would say something that sounded like a teenager and I...just...dismissed it. I beat myself up for a long time not understanding that she was reaching out. But,
WHO EVER THINKS THEIR WIFE WOULD REGRESS TO BE A CHILD?? The caps aren't for you...they're an indication of my incredible unbelief at this thing called MLC. Sexual diseases, we know. Other disorders, we know. But for a smart, beautiful woman that has spent her life expressing herself so well she's won speech contests and is a sought after speaker to suddenly start reasoning like a 16 year old girl? I thought she was pulling my leg.
I missed a lot of signs but I forgive myself. MLC is a train that no one sees coming. I'm not the first and won't be the last. :-[
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Communication is always the issue in relationships. I wasn't a good listener but my W wasn't communicating either. I spent a lot of time guess, and guessing wrong. But that's on me. Her share is making me out to be a mind reader and setting expectations for me, not communicating them or changing them.
It's the expectations that are killers. It's what leads to MLC. Those expectations we have of ourselves that this isn't going the way it should, that there's something wrong with this and it's an outside force making me feel this way.
DaRealist, to your point of your W leaving or cheating being emasculating, absolutely it can be. But we as men create those expectations in ourselves that we are less than men if our Ws leave for someone else. We take on that burden as our problem. So we choose to punish ourselves when they leave. It alway lies within us to stop the punishment. It's not easy. But it's our choice. As an added bonus if you stop punishing yourself for things you think you should be better at or mistakes you made, you actually take away and MLCers greatest weapon: that ability to hurt you like no other.
In It, I like your views on things. Gives me different perspectives. I was always like the Shirley McClain of men. Always had women friends. Just as comfortable talking about kids and family and listening as I was about football and cars. Oddly that's part of my problem. I'm interested in a lot of things and able to traverse many grounds with many different people. It sometimes looks like I have no life. But I like it.
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WHO EVER THINKS THEIR WIFE WOULD REGRESS TO BE A CHILD??
I take no offense at Caps..I use them to place emphasis NOT yell.
This was the only time you dismissed what she was saying? The only time you got angry with her "reasoning"? When this MLC thing hit ..never before that?
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Here's another thing about the mind reading thing I felt if I HAD TO TELL HIM it meant less for me if he would say or do something.
I know for me I want to inspire that I don't want to put words in someone elses mouth..how genuine is THAT??
I LOVE men I truly do...not in a destructive way and I have tried to connect it's just not there for me..so I've given up.
Here at least I can see a typed word and know I'm not entirely nuts and that some men DO want to educate themselves and communicate.
You guys have absolutely no idea how much it means to me to know that you do really care about the women you are dealing with.
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WHO EVER THINKS THEIR WIFE WOULD REGRESS TO BE A CHILD??
I take no offense at Caps..I use them to place emphasis NOT yell.
This was the only time you dismissed what she was saying? The only time you got angry with her "reasoning"? When this MLC thing hit ..never before that?
Yes, considering her MLC started way before I knew it. It would be random stuff. It wasn't 24/7 16 year old girl. It would just be flashes of her. She'd say or do things that I thought were odd, but because she seemed like my wife most of the time I just ignored it or questioned what the hell was she thinking at that time and then moved on. No real arguments, but just odd behavior that I didn't recognize until I started thinking backwards.
It's confusing because we talked so much. About everything. Except "this", obviously. A pretty big "this", if you ask me.
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Yeah no $h!te it was a pretty big THIS.
It's hard when you realize something may have been wrong in hindsight. But put yourself in that position now. Would you have done ANYTHING DIFFERENT?
Would you have sat her down and took her hands in yours looked her in the eyes and expressed some concern or caring..empathy, compassion. Or was it easier just to dismiss it because it was too uncomfortable to deal with?
It's the expectations that are killers. It's what leads to MLC. Those expectations we have of ourselves that this isn't going the way it should, that there's something wrong with this and it's an outside force making me feel this way.
And this is TRUE! We are human beings and we have a cetain degree of expectation. Not neccesily for "good behavior" or "being right" and getting a pat on the head.
Our world is an intimate place for us and it is GODDAMN HARD not to take this all personally.
Honestly I don't know how in the hell a mutually beneficial healthy relationship exists with out SOME expectation.. I just got done saying this on my thread.
I simply refuse to buy into it. There's nothing wrong with me..or maybe there is because I say there isn't.
Just because I say it with conviction doesn't mean that isn't someone elses opinion.
They and I have the option to simply not deal with it as two adults do. Agree to disagree.
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Yeah no $hit it was a pretty big THIS.
It's hard when you realize something may have been wrong in hindsight. But put yourself in that position now. Would you have done ANYTHING DIFFERENT?
Would you have sat her down and took her hands in yours looked her in the eyes and expressed some concern or caring..empathy, compassion.
Of course!!! A thousand times YES!
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OK so you have changed but she isn't open to it. YET.
That still may happen but may take a long time!
Now here's a bigger question:
Is it just EGO that makes you want her back?
The thought of being able to "win" her heart again?
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Is it just EGO that makes you want her back?
The thought of being able to "win" her heart again?
Absolutely NOT. My ego wants to leave her in the dust. I want her back because I love her, I love my family and will do everything I can to get us all back under the same roof. I miss her as my wife and I miss her as my best friend. I DO NOT believe who she is right now is who she really is. I think deep down she is screaming for help. My wife and children deserve my very best effort. And they deserve for me to die to myself (not my Self, but my ego).
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You are VERY sure about this? It's not because she's involved with another man? ( if she is)
I'm not saying just a smidgen of this isn't warranted but it can't be the whole reason.
And I am glad to read that you are willing to humble yourself in regards to your ego taking a backseat. Or dying off in the parts that are needed.
This is what needs to happen. Painful at best.
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You are VERY sure about this? It's not because she's involved with another man? ( if she is)
Very sure. Her being with another man would actually make me want to run in the opposite direction as fast as I can. I know about her fling and all the reactions that brought up inside of me. I don't know how I would feel if she was actually in a relationship. I hope and pray I can handle that with the dignity that some members of this board have. I do know that would do the most damage to my stand. Just being honest. That's just something I hope I don't have to deal with.
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Boy I'll tell you what there's nothing that I've ever seen that devastates a man more than that.
I don't know how they could even live with even the thought of someone else touching something that was once theirs or still is.
it's a primal territorial thing.
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Boy I'll tell you what there's nothing that I've ever seen that devastates a man more than that.
I don't know how they could even live with even the thought of someone else touching something that was once theirs or still is.
it's a primal territorial thing.
What helps me deal with my wife's fling is knowing that he did not have my wife. He had an angry, rebellious, broken 16 year old girl lashing out at the world. I read most of the texts. It had nothing to do with him. After the 2nd time, he actually asked her did she enjoy it. That told me two things, 1) he didn't represent and 2) they did not communicate at all. I mean, he didn't get the vibe from her physically and then didn't think to ask or at least beat around the bush while they were getting dressed. No, he waited until they were both heading back to work to ask her that question.
No, she did it as she told me "to prove a stupid point" and that she experimented...but didn't feel anything. He didn't have my wife, he had her body.
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Holy crap!! ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D
Sorry for laughing but you are one tough son of a b!tc# if you could read those texts and come away with such a spot on deduction of that situation.
WOW!! You know women believe me not just your wife. If this guy didn't know? He means NOTHING to her; Less than nothing actually. ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D
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it's a primal territorial thing.
For some, maybe most men, absolutely. For men with no confidence, probably devastating. But again, your W or anyone else in the world can only hurt you if you let them. Just choose not to let them.
Honestly I don't know how in the hell a mutually beneficial healthy relationship exists with out SOME expectation.. I just got done saying this on my thread.
Absolutely. So long as everyone's on the same page and you're not guessing. All about communicating. I expect you to take the trash out. I expect you to listen and empathize. Things like that. Set some ground rules. That seems healthy.
Here's another thing about the mind reading thing I felt if I HAD TO TELL HIM it meant less for me if he would say or do something.
That's true. But that's a two-way street. Everyone loves to be surprised by something that someone else has done without them asking. Not exclusive to women on that one. I'd guess a fair amount of men like it as well.
It's hard when you realize something may have been wrong in hindsight. But put yourself in that position now. Would you have done ANYTHING DIFFERENT?
Maybe. I'd like to learn how to listen to the right things to listen to. But, I can only control so much. I can't change her childhood. I can't change her issues. Those are hers to solve. I would probably spend a lot more time empathizing than I would trying to help her solve them. That's my big takeaway right now.
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Your last response I want to address it this way.
Most woman don't understand the need men feel to "fix" things.
There's a problem..Men want to fix it. Nothing wrong with that but here's the thing,
We KNOW it can't be fixed WE JUST WANT YOU TO LISTEN AND EMPATHIZE and not have whatever it is be dismissed or downplayed etc...
Example:
Say she works and is totally pissed off about something at work..or even the kids. LISTEN. And eventually you might find she may solve her own problem by talking about it OUTLOUD.
Sometimes there's NOTHING to solve. She just wants to b!tc# about it and feel someone who cares is listening.
To me? there's just about nothing worse than being not listened to. It doesn't mean anyone has to do what I'm saying it's just nice to know I can say it and someone is listening.
Now what's been said above is IF the relationship is healthy. Not MLC.
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So I agree with you completely. Men do try too many times to fix things. I was sometimes better and sometimes worse than average. i always thought I was I was a good listener. Maybe I wasn't. If my confidence has taken a hit, it's there. That's where I'm putting some of my work in to get through this.
But as you say, it works if it's a health relationship. So here was my situation. I would do some of the same. Complain about work, same thing she was, basically looking for someone to kind of empathize with my plight. About five years ago, she told me she was tired of hearing it.
So I spent about four years listening. Sometimes offering solutions. Mostly just listening. The things I tried to fix were mostly kid related, because our son had trouble and to me it was worth fixing. I wasn't fixing it for her. I was fixing it for him.
About a year ago, I finally came clean. I told her I hadn't been talking to her because she'd told me she didn't want to hear it. In the course of resolving the argument, she told me I could talk to her. When she did the BD, she threw it in my face, said I was always talking about work, I was obsessed with it and it had affected our M. :o
All things considered, however, I do know I need to re-learn how to listen to see what I'm doing right and what I'm doing wrong.
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I think men tend to think they are doing something"wrong" most of the time.
This comes from a womans resentment that she isn't getting what she needs so come hell or high water guys?... are you listening?
THERE WILL BE NO WAY YOU CAN DO ANYTHING RIGHT.
If she resents you FORGET IT. This rentment builds up over time.
Now if she told you she didn't want to hear about your work? There is something really really wrong with that. That should have been a red flag for you that something was the matter. ESPECIALLY IF SHE LISTENED BEFORE. That's when she started to pull away.
That to me is what a woman does..wants to know how your day was that's how I connect emotionally. How did you sleep? Taking care of you when you are sick etc...
But for me it was never reciprocated! Never asked how MY day was.. How did I sleep.... I wanted the same things I asked him to be asked of me. This would show me he cared for me also!
So again we are talking about a healthy relationship and not mlc.
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http://www.caring.com/articles/5-things-men-fear-about-aging
Anything here anybody can see that might give any insight into how they are feeling? Or maybe even did before BD?
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Now if she told you she didn't want to hear about your work? There is something really really wrong with that. That should have been a red flag for you that something was the matter. ESPECIALLY IF SHE LISTENED BEFORE. That's when she started to pull away.
it was. But I knew she was stressed. We'd just had our D. She was going back to work. I suspected she questioned if she was going to be able to do this. I'm sure I could have been more supportive. I've grown as a dad, but I was NOT good in the beginning. And she criticized me for it. And I worked on it. But all those little resentments, yup, build up, and there is nothing you can do right. As I said before, one of her complaints in the last argument was that I didn't empty the water out of the toothbrush holder. Never mind I didn't use the toothbrush holder.
As far as that article, definitely No. 4 and 5. Wheels and memory. Memory much more so. Everything else on that list, as long as I've got my mind, I'm good.
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. As I said before, one of her complaints in the last argument was that I didn't empty the water out of the toothbrush holder. Never mind I didn't use the toothbrush holder.
Again I'm sorry I'm laughing but do you see how tiny this gets. ;D ;D ;D ;D
I picked his damn dirty socks up everyday for thirty years off the floor. NEVER SAID A THING TO HIM -EVER. But I still resented it.
And if you are still typing and making sense your mind is just fine! ;D ;D ;D ;D
You crack me up!
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http://www.futurescopes.com/falling-love/811/10-qualities-women-look-man
I agree with most of these. I read a few other articles.
Sometimes I see different things in different articles this is pretty straightforward. Ladies feel fee to post here if there's something you strongly disagree with.
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Again I'm sorry I'm laughing but do you see how tiny this gets.
Oh I get it. Believe me I get it. And if it weren't true it wouldn't be so darn funny. When she said it, I literally had no response to it. Nothing. Even now, two months later, I still got nothing.
And that article is good. At least that's what I aimed for. Probably failed multiple times, but that was the goal.
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Even now, two months later, I still got nothing.
;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D
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There are a couple of books by Shaunti Feldhahn that delve into some of these issues:
http://www.shaunti.com/book/for-women-only-2/
http://www.shaunti.com/book/for-men-only-21/ (with her husband Jeff)
I didn't realize they have new editions available now; I'll have to track down some copies.
http://www.shaunti.com/about-the-updates-2/
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http://www.futurescopes.com/falling-love/811/10-qualities-women-look-man
I agree with most of these. I read a few other articles.
Sometimes I see different things in different articles this is pretty straightforward. Ladies feel fee to post here if there's something you strongly disagree with.
I have really all of those qualities, which keep our marriage for 25 years. But MLC is "de-sease" Something get very wrong with her in her childhood. 0 to 10 years. And there You go.
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I realize Albatross that these articles don't really apply to MLC women.
They are hopefully helpful to the men that are struggling with thier self image due to this crisis thier wives ... exwives etc are having.
If you have been all of these things to your wife you've been an exceptional man. And she is after all the one with the problem. And you can't help her solve it. You already know A LOT about that.
I started this so the MEN on here could maybe find a way to take care of themselves. I still think in some respects this is quite a bit harder for men than woman IMHO.
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I realize Albatross that these articles don't really apply to MLC women.
They are hopefully helpful to the men that are struggling with thier self image due to this crisis thier wives ... exwives etc are having.
If you have been all of these things to your wife you've been an exceptional man. And she is after all the one with the problem. And you can't help her solve it. You already know A LOT about that.
I started this so the MEN on here could maybe find a way to take care of themselves. I still think in some respects this is quite a bit harder for men than woman IMHO.
The hardest part to wrap our brains around is the fact that while none of us men are perfect, many of us did far more for our wives than a lot of guys we know whose wives did not run off. It takes a while to come to the conclusion that most of what we've been told as reasons at BD are total crap. The vast majority of the time there's been another man/men in the mix for 6 months to a year, they don't pull the plug unless they feel it a done deal.
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Pretty much! They are the same as men they are afraid to be alone! That safety net HAS TO BE THERE.
They haven't got enough sense of themselves to make a CLEAN BREAK instead they delude themselves into thinking they need a CLEAN SLATE. To rewrite history with. Experience that "high" again. It's just absolutely RIDICULOUS!!!
I can't imagine the anger a man must feel at all of this. If you feel you've done everything you possibly could and this is how it ends??? :o :o Seriously?
She'll find out if she doesn't know already. MOST of what she thinking is absolute BULLSH!T.
And everything at BD is BULL$h!te too.
It's going to be up to YOU in the end if you want HER back not the other way around.
They talk about women being "bitter" well let me tell you.. men have the possibility also.
And I'm not trying to say you don't have a perfect right to be especially if you have reached the limit of what you will tolerate.
After that whatever feelings you have you'll have to sort out for yourself. If you ever want to have another relationship or not. With her or someone else.
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Pretty much! They are the same as men they are afraid to be alone! That safety net HAS TO BE THERE.
They haven't got enough sense of themselves to make a CLEAN BREAK instead they delude themselves into thinking they need a CLEAN SLATE. To rewrite history with. Experience that "high" again. It's just absolutely RIDICULOUS!!!
I can't imagine the anger a man must feel at all of this. If you feel you've done everything you possibly could and this is how it ends??? :o :o Seriously?
She'll find out if she doesn't know already. MOST of what she thinking is absolute BULLSH!T.
And everything at BD is BULL$hit too.
It's going to be up to YOU in the end if you want HER back not the other way around.
They talk about women being "bitter" well let me tell you.. men have the possibility also.
And I'm not trying to say you don't have a perfect right to be especially if you have reached the limit of what you will tolerate.
After that whatever feelings you have you'll have to sort out for yourself. If you ever want to have another relationship or not. With her or someone else.
In my case, I'm not bitter, just viewing things from a position of clarity, two and a half years post BD. No, I don't want her back, either the woman I loved no longer exists or never really existed in the first place, somebody I put on a pedestal of my own creation. I honestly don't know how anyone can take back someone has treated them in this manner, unless they feel they will never do any better or fear being alone.
As far as other realtionships go, the odds are a great many of the women a middle aged man like myself will meet will themselves be MLC wives/ X's of other men or in the middle of peri menopause. This is not pleasant prospect, but one that has to be considered.
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In my case, I'm not bitter, just viewing things from a position of clarity, two and a half years post BD. No, I don't want her back, either the woman I loved no longer exists or never really existed in the first place, somebody I put on a pedestal of my own creation. I honestly don't know how anyone can take back someone has treated them in this manner, unless they feel they will never do any better or fear being alone.
As far as other relationships go, the odds are a great many of the women a middle aged man like myself will meet will themselves be MLC wives/ X's of other men or in the middle of peri menopause. This is not pleasant prospect, but one that has to be considered.
I know or at least think I do. I had way too many relationships in my own head also. They weren't real. Just me convincing myself someone loved me. What I had didn't exist to begin with. I don't know if this is the same way you feel.
I know I'll never be with him again due to his treatment of me. Never believe another word that comes out of his mouth. I've never met a bigger liar IN MY LIFE!
As for being alone the rest of my life? I have NO problem with that. I'd rather do that than spend the rest of it trying to convince myself someone love's me again.
I understand about what's out there believe me. I am not looking - but if what I've run into is ANY indication of what's available? I'd rather just live with my CAT.
It may just be a matter of me getting older and fussier about who I think might be a "potential" partner. Time passing isn't going to help that much..ya think?
But I do know one thing- it sure as hell isn't HIM.
NOBODY is going to find someone without "baggage" at this age.
And unless someone wants to go out with a ten year old? They aren't going to find a virgin either.
So I guess it just depends on what YOU think might be someone who's faults and flaws you can accept and deal with. I read once.
It's never they way we are compatible with someone that the problem ; It's how we can deal with the incompatibility there is.
And I like this phrase. I like the truth. It makes me feel more secure when I can admit to myself I'm NOT perfect. But I deserve better than what I had ..whatever that was. A nightmare of control and suffocation.
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http://www.match.com/magazine/article/10203/
This is something from the website Match.com which personally I think is a CRAPPY idea also. But maybe there's something enlightening in here for some of you.
I'll see if there's something else...
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http://jamesrusselllingerfelt.wordpress.com/2013/08/15/beautiful-advice-from-a-divorced-man-after-16-years-of-marriage/
This is a little "out there" and again everybody is at different stages that read this.
If you are still devastated etc. You might not want to read this. It's more like a regret filled observation when I read it.
I'm trying to find something POSITIVE about being at the stage where some of you might be divorced and still believe you can love someone again.
HEY! A little help here?? Anybody looking up something that applies to them might help also! ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D
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I honestly don't know how anyone can take back someone has treated them in this manner, unless they feel they will never do any better or fear being alone.
I've been Standing for over 4 years, and my wife moved out 3 years ago. If I was afraid of being alone, I did a very poor job of preventing it.
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I can definitely do better than the alien. If I feared being alone I'm pretty sure I could cure that pretty quick. I have plenty of great strong friends so I'm blessed to not have alone issues. Not same as having a wife but I can suck it up and see what the future holds. I choose to wait her out. I could choose otherwise, I am passing up opportunities that I may kick myself for later. I know I am doing what is right for me, my kids and my faith at this early point in this mess.
Future? One day at a time for now.
I believe LBS are full of love. We are good people to start with and this mess serves to make us even better in many cases. Whoever ends up with some of us is going to be very lucky.
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I agree- I have said before any man who is on this board IMHO shows me that they are interested in improving themselves in spite of all of this. As I am. And whoever ends up with any of you will certainly be lucky.
I had more self-help books than Barnes and Noble..and no I don't have it all figured out. But I started with myself a long time ago and am working on my codependency issues. Now there are inflated trust issues.
I also have an overly responsible way of operating. But part of that comes from dealing with someone for 30 years who has no idea what the "right thing" to do is. And that's just not according to me; some of it is from a legal standpoint.
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And whoever ends up with any of you will certainly be lucky.
yes this includes also my W.She is lucky to be with me -which makes me the unlucky in the equation.
I realised that there is no more certain thing to happen than the ultimate betrayal of the ungrateful.
I honestly don't know how anyone can take back someone has treated them in this manner, unless they feel they will never do any better or fear being alone.
It's those fears that most LBS feel that feed further the ego of the betraying partners and rationalise their actions. MLCers twist it to "If they say I did awful things and still want me, maybe I am not such a bad person after all"
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Exactly- but the deal is sometimes they can't wrap thier brain about what unconditional love might be either. I think that threw him for the biggest loop. How in hell after what HE had done why would I want to make a go of the relationship?
I thought maybe he'd want to working it out by talking about it instead he wanted to treat it all like "a bump in the road" and chose to ignore it and leave me with all the work and the pain of it. All he was after was money.
So now I'm done....I'll never want to work this out again. He got his sick kicks out of having me come back and feed his ego again.
Once you stop doing this and stop having anything to do with them whether they ever wake up or not really shouldn't be any concern of yours IMHO.
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http://jamesrusselllingerfelt.wordpress.com/2013/08/15/beautiful-advice-from-a-divorced-man-after-16-years-of-marriage/
This is a little "out there" and again everybody is at different stages that read this.
If you are still devastated etc. You might not want to read this. It's more like a regret filled observation when I read it.
I'm trying to find something POSITIVE about being at the stage where some of you might be divorced and still believe you can love someone again.
HEY! A little help here?? Anybody looking up something that applies to them might help also! ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D
It's the worst thing I ever read on maritial advice, it puts all the blame on the husband, while the wife gets a carte blanche to act how ever she likes. Being a doormat is no way to maintain a marriage from either sex's standpoint.
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I can definitely do better than the alien. If I feared being alone I'm pretty sure I could cure that pretty quick. I have plenty of great strong friends so I'm blessed to not have alone issues. Not same as having a wife but I can suck it up and see what the future holds. I choose to wait her out. I could choose otherwise, I am passing up opportunities that I may kick myself for later. I know I am doing what is right for me, my kids and my faith at this early point in this mess.
Future? One day at a time for now.
I believe LBS are full of love. We are good people to start with and this mess serves to make us even better in many cases. Whoever ends up with some of us is going to be very lucky.
That's your choice and you have every right to it, but we do our children no favors by letting them think Mom/Dad are ever coming home and there nothing in the Bible that requires us to stay in a marriage with an unfaithful spouse.
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It is precisely the point we each have a different view point on why we stand. To be perfectly blunt, I'm in no hurry for several simple reasons.
First, and most importantly this woman is not the person I loved for 20 years-- I won't walk away from someone who gave me a wonderful 20 years and 3 blessed children over a short period of time of crazy train. She may not know it now, but this is what unconditional love looks like, and least until I see what walks out the other end of the tunnel.
Second, the family dynamics are good. she is good to the kids. so as long as they benefit from two parents, thats beat single parent scenarios. andmy financial position improves by waiting as years of child support is less than 60 months.
Third, I recognize I need more mirror work to be ready for the next relationship and without pain I would likely never do it. For example, I probably need another year in the gym just to get up to a dating physique and the physical component is the fastest to progress.
Fourth--here's the kicker. As a guy in his early 40s earning a healthy income, my options are only increasing. Rushing out of this relationship to seach for something better would be like selling an asset under duress when u know the asset is set to increase substantially.
I understand why some view men who stand as lacking independence or confidence but that is not my story. I don't care if things end in a D, I will not view standing as a poor decision. I will walk away knowing I did everything in my power.
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Elray we have the same position on why we stand. Very well said.
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I understand why some view men who stand as lacking independence or confidence but that is not my story. I don't care if things end in a D, I will not view standing as a poor decision. I will walk away knowing I did everything in my power.
I'm curious to know why walking away from a troubled marriage is seen as strength or confidence.
It's easy to walk away and let something fall apart. Staying committed to a troubled marriage? Working through the loss of trust, the anger, the mutual recriminations? That is hard. Dealing with the judgment of friends, family, and strangers who think you are foolish, pitiful, or being unrealistic? That is really hard.
There are a lot of philosophies and programs about what it takes to be a "real man" and so many of them seem rooted in status anxiety. Unless you behave the way they recommend and treat your relationships the way they suggest, you're somehow an inferior human being—a "beta male" or even "gamma". Which is ironic, given that some of the more aggressive ones want you to behave like other peoples' opinions don't matter to you.
Despite what we see and hear in the media and in popular culture, people work on their troubled marriages all of the time. Relationships can and do recover from infidelity and that trust can be re-established, but doing so requires the ability on our part to forgive and put it behind us. Pointing at the other person and saying "they're the problem" is how so many marriages reach a crisis point in the first place!
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Despite what we see and hear in the media and in popular culture, people work on their troubled marriages all of the time. Relationships can and do recover from infidelity and that trust can be re-established, but doing so requires the ability on our part to forgive and put it behind us. Pointing at the other person and saying "they're the problem" is how so many marriages reach a crisis point in the first place!
This is true but if the other person doesn't express genuine REMORSE for what they did and try to help the LBS understand what happened BEFORE all of this other stuff happened it never gets ANYWHERE.
You don't just PUT this BEHIND you it takes two to help repair the damage done..not one to just put it behind them.
BH
It's the worst thing I ever read on maritial advice, it puts all the blame on the husband, while the wife gets a carte blanche to act how ever she likes. Being a doormat is no way to maintain a marriage from either sex's standpoint.
I AGREE That's what this thread is all about! That's why I randomly post these kinds of things! :D
Elray
I will walk away knowing I did everything in my power.
That's were I'm at right now..no regrets..tried my best..it just didn't work out.
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This is true but if the other person doesn't express genuine REMORSE for what they did and try to help the LBS understand what happened BEFORE all of this other stuff happened it never gets ANYWHERE.
You don't just PUT this BEHIND you it takes two to help repair the damage done..not one to just put it behind them.
You are right in that the MLCer must feel remorse for what they did in order for the relationship to be reconciled, but it is not necessary for forgiveness.
The point of forgiveness isn't to offer absolution for someone's sins against you; it's about releasing the pain and anger their actions have caused so it can't hurt you any more. You can forgive them for what they've done and never talk to them again; you don't even have to tell them that you've forgiven them!
I did a book report on the book "Forgive For Love" by Dr. Frederic Luskin; the thread can be found here:
http://mlcforum.theherosspouse.com/index.php?topic=1965.0
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That's just what I have done.
Forgiven him and gone on with my life without any ties to him or having him in it.
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Hmm. On this issue of forgiveness we largely agree. I view forgiveness as a sliding scale or a process. Pop culture promotes it as a binary event. At the bottom is release, at the top is absolution. Absolution does require both parties at the table. Release can be one sided. There's a great u tube on this concept.
http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=P1S2u-z9y0M&desktop_uri=%2Fwatch%3Fv%3DP1S2u-z9y0M
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I agree release is about the only forgiveness I have been able to practice as NO one and I do mean NO one has ever in my life asked me to forgive them except for him ( and the exmil) which will not work unless he forgives himself first!
He thought that would be the answer also as he wanted me to just deny the pain he caused and "get over it" by myself. Come to my own conclusions.. HEAL.. while he stuck he head in the sand. There is no way to heal IMHO if you live with these idiots.
The only way I can grant the last forgiveness in this video is to remove myself PHYSICALLY from the relationship which I did not want to do. He did that for me by kicking me out.
BOTH of them have been forgiven by me. And I have left them for God to deal with.
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It is precisely the point we each have a different view point on why we stand. To be perfectly blunt, I'm in no hurry for several simple reasons.
First, and most importantly this woman is not the person I loved for 20 years-- I won't walk away from someone who gave me a wonderful 20 years and 3 blessed children over a short period of time of crazy train. She may not know it now, but this is what unconditional love looks like, and least until I see what walks out the other end of the tunnel.
Second, the family dynamics are good. she is good to the kids. so as long as they benefit from two parents, thats beat single parent scenarios. andmy financial position improves by waiting as years of child support is less than 60 months.
Third, I recognize I need more mirror work to be ready for the next relationship and without pain I would likely never do it. For example, I probably need another year in the gym just to get up to a dating physique and the physical component is the fastest to progress.
Fourth--here's the kicker. As a guy in his early 40s earning a healthy income, my options are only increasing. Rushing out of this relationship to seach for something better would be like selling an asset under duress when u know the asset is set to increase substantially.
I understand why some view men who stand as lacking independence or confidence but that is not my story. I don't care if things end in a D, I will not view standing as a poor decision. I will walk away knowing I did everything in my power.
Good points, I gave myself a year to get my crap together, but to date ( over two years now) haven't met anyone that does it for me. Working on yourself is the best therapy for this, hit gym, pick up a bike and cycle, canoe, kayak, ski etc..., get out to community events, volunteer. It worked wonders for me. My X going MLC is now is kind of like a bad dream
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I never did the "Forgive" thing, I'll leave that up to whatever Deity runs the whole show to decide. I just got to the point I realize this person I used to be married to has proven herself unworthy of anything but indifference/Meh from me.
MLC may be some sort of hormone induced sickness, but infidelity is a choice, all kinds of planning, deceit and betrayal are required to pull it off.... nobody just happens to trip and fall onto a Pen!$ or into a V@g!n@. Anyone who thinks they can put all that behind them completely is in my opinion in denial, it's always going to be the elephant in the room.
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elray,
I like your reasons for standing.
I don't care if things end in a D, I will not view standing as a poor decision. I will walk away knowing I did everything in my power.
This is the only statement I do not understand. If things end in a D, why would you walk away? This does not really impact on you....does it? This is not your choice....just another of your W's.
I choose to move forward and let God guide me along His intended path....whatever that might be. And I choose to accept the path He has chosen for my W....if only she is able to find it.
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Braveheart
MLC may be some sort of hormone induced sickness, but infidelity is a choice, all kinds of planning, deceit and betrayal are required to pull it off.... nobody just happens to trip and fall onto a Pen!$ or into a V@g!n@. Anyone who thinks they can put all that behind them completely is in my opinion in denial, it's always going to be the elephant in the room.
That's exactly right especially if it isn't talked through or worked through by both people they both have to want it really badly. And even a fight or a question over where someone has been etc...it's going to rear it's ugly head unless there is some real connection made and two people knew they took each other for granted. AND ACKNOWLEDGED IT.
Massive trust has been broken...
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infidelity is a choice, all kinds of planning, deceit and betrayal are required to pull it off.... nobody just happens to trip and fall onto a Pen!$ or into a V@g!n@.
Braveheart,
I'm strongly disagreeing with this statement!
I've been married for twenty years, and I've come close several times to falling into a V@g!n@. V@g!n@s are out to get me. They always trying to catch me when I fall. Its really no fault of my own. Its not like I planned to fall into a V@g!n@. I certainly didn't decieve the V@g!n@ or betray it. Just because I'm a little trippy doesn't mean I should be responsible for where I land. Fortunately, I've never had this problem with a Pen!$.
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I've been married for twenty years, and I've come close several times to falling into a V@g!n@. V@g!n@s are out to get me. They always trying to catch me when I fall. Its really no fault of my own. Its not like I planned to fall into a V@g!n@. I certainly didn't decieve the V@g!n@ or betray it. Just because I'm a little trippy doesn't mean I should be responsible for where I land. Fortunately, I've never had this problem with a Pen!$
;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D..........catching my breath...... ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D
OMG!!!! Thank you for this WOW..I needed a laugh soooooo bad today!!!!!
Well make sure you cover your a$$ if there's a Pen!$ around!! ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D
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infidelity is a choice, all kinds of planning, deceit and betrayal are required to pull it off.... nobody just happens to trip and fall onto a Pen!$ or into a V@g!n@.
Braveheart,
I'm strongly disagreeing with this statement!
I've been married for twenty years, and I've come close several times to falling into a V@g!n@. V@g!n@s are out to get me. They always trying to catch me when I fall. Its really no fault of my own. Its not like I planned to fall into a V@g!n@. I certainly didn't decieve the V@g!n@ or betray it. Just because I'm a little trippy doesn't mean I should be responsible for where I land. Fortunately, I've never had this problem with a Pen!$.
They must be pretty elusive in my neck of the woods because I've been trying to fall into one for about the last six month or so without much luck...slippery devils those V@g!n@'s....
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Well I got a bigger problem than that!! Try six YEARS talk to me then!
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MLC may be some sort of hormone induced sickness, but infidelity is a choice, all kinds of planning, deceit and betrayal are required to pull it off.... nobody just happens to trip and fall onto a Pen!$ or into a V@g!n@.
The decision to have an affair is indeed a choice, but it's not accurate to say that all adulterous partners set out with the intention to have an affair. Willard Harley covers that ground well in His Needs, Her Needs: a marriage that meets the emotional needs of a spouse is going to be more resistant to the temptation of an affair than one that doesn't. If your needs aren't being met in a relationship, you are going to be drawn to people who do meet those needs for you.
Sure, there are going to be people who are serial cheaters. They don't have good boundaries, they see marriages as a relationship to get something out of, or they come from broken families where infidelity or divorce are just facts of life. But just because someone has an affair does not mean they are incapable of growing, of learning from their mistakes and choosing to be trustworthy again.
Anyone who thinks they can put all that behind them completely is in my opinion in denial, it's always going to be the elephant in the room.
Fortunately, your lack of imagination doesn't prevent many couples from doing just that.
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His Needs, Her Needs: a marriage that meets the emotional needs of a spouse is going to be more resistant to the temptation of an affair than one that doesn't. If your needs aren't being met in a relationship, you are going to be drawn to people who do meet those needs for you.
In my case the statement in green was not possible for me due to his NPD.
His needs will never be met due to what he lacks within himself to establish emotional intimacy. That's not just me..that's with anybody. Children, parents, siblings,friends ( which he has none), pets, anything.
He is devoid of feeling anything for anyone other than what he can manipulate or use to get a need satisfied without returning anything. We are all targets..marks...something to use and discard eventually.
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In it, I am completely with you on this one. My XW was also unable to connect with anyone emotionally. Totally incapable, I just didn't know it. Have you looked up Avoidant Personality Disorder and its symptoms? It fits exactly the characteristics of my XW. And when someone doesn't connect with you emotionally, and your emotional needs are not met.... you have the option to find it somewhere else or you realize that you are married, and you stay true to your vows. I realize that my needs were not met, but I never thought to divorce her, nor did I look to have an affair.
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MLC may be some sort of hormone induced sickness, but infidelity is a choice, all kinds of planning, deceit and betrayal are required to pull it off.... nobody just happens to trip and fall onto a Pen!$ or into a V@g!n@.
The decision to have an affair is indeed a choice, but it's not accurate to say that all adulterous partners set out with the intention to have an affair. Willard Harley covers that ground well in His Needs, Her Needs: a marriage that meets the emotional needs of a spouse is going to be more resistant to the temptation of an affair than one that doesn't. If your needs aren't being met in a relationship, you are going to be drawn to people who do meet those needs for you.
Being drawn to meeting those needs outside your marriage is infidelity, nobody has forced them to do anything, it is a choice to do so
Sure, there are going to be people who are serial cheaters. They don't have good boundaries, they see marriages as a relationship to get something out of, or they come from broken families where infidelity or divorce are just facts of life. But just because someone has an affair does not mean they are incapable of growing, of learning from their mistakes and choosing to be trustworthy again.
It does not matter what they decide or learned from their mistakes, they have proven they have poor boundaries and the damage has been done. The trust has been broken and there is no stuffing that Genie back in the bottle again.
Anyone who thinks they can put all that behind them completely is in my opinion in denial, it's always going to be the elephant in the room.
Fortunately, your lack of imagination doesn't prevent many couples from doing just that.
It's not my imagination, it's a fact. The statistics on reconcillation after infidelity are pretty grim. Because of the broken trust factor many monitor their spouses email, internet and cell phone usage for evidence of new cheating for years and experince emotional triggers any time their spouse is late from work or exhibit any sort of odd behavoir. That's not my idea of a pleasant way to live, but you are welcome to it
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I always told myself that if Barb had just picked up the phone..that I would have tried to make it work..for her,for myself and for the kids...would it have worked ? I can't say and will never know..we ran out of time...but..I admit..I also wondered if I could do it...and was afraid that I would live as braveheart described...
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Brave heart,
U paint a grim picture. I don't know how I would behave in reconciliation mode but I don't think I would be a stalker for the rest of my life. That isn't the path I am seeking.
I joked earlier but really don't think my W had the intent of seeking a sexual affair. I also exaggerated my personal experience but I have been caught by surprise when the opportunity to cheat arose. I know that those times came unexpectedly and involved too much alcohol and could have ended differently with a few more drinks or a slightly more needy ego on my part. I will not lie. I found those situations immensely flattering and intoxicating. It felt good to be wanted. Knowing I have walked that line I am a bit more understanding when I am catching myself harshly judging my w in my own mind. "Let him who is without sin..."
Anyways basic point is that sometimes mistakes happen without intent but once the happen and the bridge is burnt it's hard for the mlc er to know where motivation and mistakes crossed lines. Add in a active alienator addiction to drama and dopamine, and they can't find a way forward so they wallow in guilt uncertainty and self loathing.
In it , a good laugh is the best medicine but after 4 months I feel so physically lonely. I can't imagine 6 years... U may need something stronger than humor. Hugs for u.
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Apples and oranges in my experience.
Believe in MLC and forgive. Believe in MLC and not forgive.
Rover, from knowing you for many years on LT , I am 100% sure if 'Barbs picked up the phone' you would have known the MLC difference. And would put your marriage back together if ever given the chance.
Braveheart, on the other hand, and no disrespect as we are men, ego would never allow that, as goes his posts here in my opinion.
Doesn't make him a bad guy as I lean to the 'damage' also as him.
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Apples and oranges in my experience.
Believe in MLC and forgive. Believe in MLC and not forgive.
Rover, from knowing you for many years on LT , I am 100% sure if 'Barbs picked up the phone' you would have known the MLC difference. And would put your marriage back together if ever given the chance.
Braveheart, on the other hand, and no disrespect as we are men, ego would never allow that, as goes his posts here in my opinion.
Doesn't make him a bad guy as I lean to the 'damage' also as him.
On my part there is no ego involved, or bitterness, it's just been my experince and in virtually every other case I've run into that when a woman is done with you, they are finished. They only come back if they have no other alternative because the OM's haven't worked out or your fortune's have improved beyond anything they could hope to get anywhere else. Having someone come home because they've burned their bridges everywhere else or they've have hit bottom and you begun to win life's lottery is hardly the basis of a healthy reconcilliation.
The only time I've seen it work with unfaithful spouses is after a very substantial time has passed, (15-20 years) in which case both have had other lives and neither are the same people they were.
In a case like that the passions have cooled and it's pretty much a new relationship, not a reconcilliation.
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Braveheart,
You missed the point although you 'may' be correct in you evaluation of 'things'.
Comes from the heart my friend. Your heart. You totally under estimate MLC/Put zero value on. and where you find yourself x amount of years from now depends on your flight/fright. hmmm.
Ego is simply what 'collects' on your brain from the day you are born and has alot to to do with your environment, plain and simple so says......
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In it , a good laugh is the best medicine but after 4 months I feel so physically lonely. I can't imagine 6 years... U may need something stronger than humor. Hugs for u.
;D ;D ;D ;D Actually I'm still laughing. Seriously? It's been more like 8. But he said 6 months so I thought I'd say 6 years.
That's why I say men have a much harder time getting passed the sex part of the infidelity..I don't think women really know just how invested a man is when you make love. But I think men have a tendency to not COMMUNICATE that verbally.
I went back because of two reasons ( this is after he put the pig in MY bed and I slept in that bed for 5 months and he never touched me) We lost a family cat and my compassion actually tried to override the disgust I felt for him.
And I had quit my job due to his harassment so financially I wasn't able to "make a go of it" with my d17. I had income from the apt I had so I pretty much paid for everything when I went back trying to save the girls inheritance in the form of real estate. PLUS I blew 10,000.00 on his fantasy band, food, and bills.
Whatever I'm no saint and don't aspire to be..but I'm not a nun and have no wish to leave this earth without SOMEHOW connecting with a man. But it's not going to be some fly by night thing physically. I'm practically a virgin again! ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D
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I joked earlier but really don't think my W had the intent of seeking a sexual affair. I also exaggerated my personal experience but I have been caught by surprise when the opportunity to cheat arose. I know that those times came unexpectedly and involved too much alcohol and could have ended differently with a few more drinks or a slightly more needy ego on my part. I will not lie. I found those situations immensely flattering and intoxicating. It felt good to be wanted. Knowing I have walked that line I am a bit more understanding when I am catching myself harshly judging my w in my own mind. "Let him who is without sin..."
And admitting you are human is no sin either. We all want to feel wanted..I don't know about needed... but wanted.
My situation would have been different had he just gone and got whatever kicks he needed to get gotten it out of his system and come home. BUT he had to have the divorce because the "love of his life" was waiting in the wings to take my place. So whatever-
He went way over the top this time and I am FINISHED as it was so aptly put in the above post. I tried..it didn't work. I don't care if he was "half- baked"- "1/4 baked" or "no baked". I was ready ...he wasn't... too bad for him.
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In it , a good laugh is the best medicine but after 4 months I feel so physically lonely. I can't imagine 6 years... U may need something stronger than humor. Hugs for u.
Strange but I was going to post this on my thread but it's probably 4 years for me, 2 of those years W father was dying with cancer and my mother was dying with a heart condition so W and I just passed like ships in the night going to different hospitals. I think this was one reason I reacted strongly when I found out about OM#2. She was getting some and I wasn't. I have never planned on cheating, and opportunities don't appear for me as they do for other people.
Anyway I'll be stepping outside in a few minutes the weather is bright and crisp, what do you think the odds would be on me tripping and falling into a V@g!n@. :)
Lanzo
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;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D
I think HALF of my problem with the EXCESS energy I have is I'm slightly sexually frustrated ..at best.
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Lanzo, sounds the last 4 years were a lonely sorrowful journey. life has a way of turning the corner. do you remember the story of joseph with 7 years of plenty followed by 7 years of famine? God even used the hard 7 years to raise him up in life. Regardless of your faith, life has a cycle of ups and downs. Nothing lasts forever and the up time is so much sweeter after the pain.
with respect to ur walk tonight, worse things could happen! But I don't have to tell u that.
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Yes- there are lots of things that 7 represents especially in scripture.....7 days to create earth man and woman. 7 deadly sins etc..
Things take time and the worst thought is you might be running out of it and no one will want you eventually. But right now even that thought doesn't bother me. At 53 I'm starting over and I really don't care what anybody else thinks.
I haven't done anything I'm not proud of and tried to operate as if I had to explain what's happened with me to my 17 and 20 year old daughters I have nothing to be ashamed of. There's an explanation for ALL of it. At least on my end.
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Yes Elray, now I have somthing new to add to my prayers.
"Bring on the times of plenty !!!"
Lanzo
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Braveheart,
You missed the point although you 'may' be correct in you evaluation of 'things'.
Comes from the heart my friend. Your heart. You totally under estimate MLC/Put zero value on. and where you find yourself x amount of years from now depends on your flight/fright. hmmm.
Ego is simply what 'collects' on your brain from the day you are born and has alot to to do with your environment, plain and simple so says......
[/quote
Please elaborate, as I don't follow your reply "totally under estimate MLC/Put zero value on" statement. Based on everything I've read regarding MLC it appears to be a hormonally driven event, triggered by low testosterone levels in men and impending menopause in women. In the case of women these drastically shifting hormone levels have profound effects on personality, the woman who comes out on the other end is not the one that went in.
Even if there is no typical MLC behavoir and the wife does not run off to "Eat, Pray, Love" with an OM, a great many marriages implode at this time. The wife can become someone neither the husband or kids even recognize anymore, the husband sleeping on the counch/spare room and hiding out in the garage/man cave to avoid the onslaught.
My X was getting into Peri when she left, the symptoms were there, according to the kids she's now full bore into it...I almost feel sorry for the OM, he has no idea what he's in for....
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Yes Elray, now I have somthing new to add to my prayers.
"Bring on the times of plenty !!!"
Lanzo
Indeed, I'm 58 and have no intention of hanging around for another 3-5 years waiting on the slim chance of being my X's emergency parachute.......
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Braveheart
Indeed, I'm 58 and have no intention of hanging around for another 3-5 years waiting on the slim chance of being my X's emergency parachute.......
I many times feel the same way. But this is the "kick 'me to the curb" viewpoint.
I don't know. When I feel this way I have to stop and ask myself why????
I find that my initial feeling is that I'm angry about the whole thing.
Then I go deeper and find that I'm really just so hurt by it all.
I think I remember you posting something regarding that you would have stood by your wife if she had been a quadriplegic for 20 years or more. Don't mean to challenge you but that just doesn't sound like the words of a kick 'me to the curb kind of man.
We are all angry, even if we don't admit it. But deep down we are all hurt by the betrayal from someone who we would have done pretty much anything for.
My next words are really to me. Stop taking this personally. The things they do they really do to themselves. We just need to protect ourselves and stay clear to not be part if the consequential damage.
Take care, Braveheart. I sense that your a good guy who is sad like the rest of us.
L
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Btraveheart, you being correct in the 'betrayal' of your wife is how your view, brain, processes it. Your view makes sense for you ( and others) so you can get up each day and put on your shoes therefore your view is correct.
you, like me and others come here to 'test' your/our view to see if it makes sense or to 'gather' more data to process in the event that you may want to change your view or see another side and try an rationalize that.
Sometimes we are 'challenged' on our 'view' from other solid data that makes another put their shoes on everyday.
We are a small handful that have been betrayed in such a way that 'intense pain' is my only way to describe it.
Everyone here, in my opinion, has a 'set point' to how much they will/can take. Some here get/understand MLC to the core and realize that the betrayal was 'something' that the MLCer could not control for all the reasons we discuss of why it happened in the first place and that the MLCer will wake up with regret someday and in turn put the them in an even worse position in life than in what we felt.
Thats pretty heavy and forgiveness for this betrayal won't come easy to most here in my opinion. I used to view it as her coming out of a coma and seeing all she knew is gone. Wonder what that is going to feel like?
Putting a 'value' on MLC would have to mean that you feel they 'could not control' it and therefore would understand and forgive the betrayal as 'science/chemistry/imbalance' or whatever was the cause and not the loved one. That the loved one, would have had the 'proper symptoms' in life for this to happen whatever they are.
We sure do put a value on the pain though! :)
Some, including myself, agree with you that I do not want to waste another day on MLC. Life is short! :)
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I have come to feel that in order for me to really heal from this trauma and subsequent loss of my world, I must forgive. I believe it is absolutely essential. Only then can I really view it as something that happened to my W and not to me. I was standing there when the H bomb detonated and I was pretty badly annihilated.
This is really not my problem. I am left with a very difficult journey that I must undertake....but W has nothing to do with it. I must focus on myself and on God. I realize that I am willing to accept whatever plan God has in store for me and whatever plan God has in store for W. The best of all odds for my W returning to me is if I completely detach from her and forgive her. I do NOT condone the adulterous and other selfish decisions W has made, but I cannot control any of that. I CAN control bringing joy into my life with or without her. I so want it to be with her, but she is on her own now and I am on my own. We both have God to guide us if we accept that and let Him do it.
I do not know what the future holds....but I am no longer afraid of it. I will use the Spirit of God within me to help guide me and make the right decisions for myself. I can only pray that W will ultimately do the same.
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Indeed, I'm 58 and have no intention of hanging around for another 3-5 years waiting on the slim chance of being my X's emergency parachute......
Exactly I'm two years older than he is ...and I'm not waiting a minute more to get on with it!
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Braveheart
Indeed, I'm 58 and have no intention of hanging around for another 3-5 years waiting on the slim chance of being my X's emergency parachute.......
I many times feel the same way. But this is the "kick 'me to the curb" viewpoint.
I don't know. When I feel this way I have to stop and ask myself why????
I find that my initial feeling is that I'm angry about the whole thing.
Then I go deeper and find that I'm really just so hurt by it all.
I think I remember you posting something regarding that you would have stood by your wife if she had been a quadriplegic for 20 years or more. Don't mean to challenge you but that just doesn't sound like the words of a kick 'me to the curb kind of man.
We are all angry, even if we don't admit it. But deep down we are all hurt by the betrayal from someone who we would have done pretty much anything for.
My next words are really to me. Stop taking this personally. The things they do they really do to themselves. We just need to protect ourselves and stay clear to not be part if the consequential damage.
Take care, Braveheart. I sense that your a good guy who is sad like the rest of us.
L
My "taking a bullet" was for the woman she was, her actions in our marriage up until the last six months of it were worthy of that stance, now they are not. Marriage is a matter of absolute trust, once that trust is broken it's gone forever, every time they are late from work, talk on the phone, flip a webpage when you walk into the room or act in the least bit odd you are going to wonder "is it happening again?". This is the life of the reconcilled LBS for years afterward.
You can have unconditional love for someone, but if the object of your desire mistreats you, abandons you, and wants nothing to do with you, that "Unconditional Love" would be viewed by any therapist as another sort of personality disorder. The best thing you can do is get off the rollercoaster, forget about reconcillaition and build a new life, hopefully with someone who deserves your trust.
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You can have unconditional love for someone, but if the object of your desire mistreats you, abandons you, and wants nothing to do with you, that "Unconditional Love" would be viewed by any therapist as another sort of personality disorder. The best thing you can do is get off the rollercoaster, forget about reconcillaition and build a new life, hopefully with someone who deserves your trust.
I have to say I agree with this viewpoint.
We end up with the personality disorder ( if we haven't already) having anything more to do with them is masochistic IMHO.
Sorry I don't get off on pain. Getting it OR giving it.
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My "taking a bullet" was for the woman she was, her actions in our marriage up until the last six months of it were worthy of that stance, now they are not. Marriage is a matter of absolute trust, once that trust is broken it's gone forever, every time they are late from work, talk on the phone, flip a webpage when you walk into the room or act in the least bit odd you are going to wonder "is it happening again?". This is the life of the reconcilled LBS for years afterward.
I guess we would have to ask a reconciled LBS to know if this is true.
I personally know a reconciled LBS and this isn't the type of life she would ever accept.
As far as having the capability to forgive the unforgivable, there are those who are able to forgive others for killing their child. I don't know that I would have that capacity. But I would never say that those who are able to do so have a personality disorder.
I understand what you say and do not deny your right to feel as you do.
It is normal to have such feelings. Nothing wrong in it.
I guess I don't understand how someone having the capacity to forgive is somehow seen as into pain and misery.
By the way, I have serious doubts about my own capacity to forgive.
L
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Yes Braveheart, point well taken. A very healthy choice. When you are healthy enough to make that one.
TLZ, agreed also with your post. forgiveness to me is also necessary. Doesn't mean i have to love her but forgive her, yes, for all the MLC reasons. Again, a healthy choice when healthy enough to make it.
In it, true, 'I don't get off on pain, giving or receiving'. Another obvious healthy choice when you can separate yourself from any emotional abuse that comes your way. Time serves people well. :)
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I am hoping that trust is not necessarily lost forever and that it can be rebuilt. In reconciliation, both parties must realize this. Both must agree on openness. I agree that reconciliation, at best, is not easy.
It would also involve continued detachment and both parties would need to be different people from that old M.....people who have grown and who are now capable of being in a healthy relationship. The old marriage, the one that had the complete and blind trust, was not healthy. Both spouses had issues to resolve....the LBS as well as the MLCer. I also believe a strong faith in both people is critical for success.
I agree that trust is essential for a R to thrive....just as important are communication, compromise, conflict resolution to name a few. And there are certainly many cases of successful reconciliations after infidelity. It would seem the parties in those cases have worked it out.
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I agree that trust is essential for a R to thrive....just as important are communication, compromise, conflict resolution to name a few. And there are certainly many cases of successful reconciliations after infidelity. It would seem the parties in those cases have worked it out.
TRUST IS KEY FOR ME!!! COMMUNICATION COMES NEXT! NO minding reading PLEASE! I'm not one; nor do I expect one. Some thoughtfulness and consideration would be nice.
Conflict resolution? I love a good fight! But it has to come to some sort of compromise when all is said and done. And I'm not sure if sex is the way to make-up..I never did that.
And the parties that work it out? One has to really not care if it happens again IMHO. Because they know they are going to be OK no matter what happens.
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http://www.yourtango.com/experts/kim-olver/why-men-are-more-distant-women-relationships
Was true for anyone in the relationship? Denial is a powerful thing...
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I think there are several misconceptions here, based on research. First off, I think the worst thing in a reconciled marriage would be for one partner to not care if the other strayed. How invested could one be if they didn't care if their partner cheated? Also, in reconciled marriages trust IS necessary and research has shown that trust can be stronger than ever. Infidelity is a symptom of a larger problem in most cases. Once the couple overcomes the underlying g problems, then what is built from that point on is usually much better than what was there before. I doubt RCR lives in a panic about who Chuck is talking on the phone with or why he's on the computer. I could be wrong, but....
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I think there are several misconceptions here, based on research. First off, I think the worst thing in a reconciled marriage would be for one partner to not care if the other strayed. How invested could one be if they didn't care if their partner cheated? Also, in reconciled marriages trust IS necessary and research has shown that trust can be stronger than ever. Infidelity is a symptom of a larger problem in most cases. Once the couple overcomes the underlying g problems, then what is built from that point on is usually much better than what was there before. I doubt RCR lives in a panic about who Chuck is talking on the phone with or why he's on the computer. I could be wrong, but....
Maybe you have access to more research than I do, but I have not found anything but anecdotal reports of a relationship being better than ever after infidelty. I have read that couples that were going through rough patches in their marriages, but worked through them ( no affairs) were much happier five years later, but nothing statistical regarding reconcilliation after infidelity that was very positive. Less than 4% of divorced couples remarry.
From all I've read on MLC and in my own experince, at first we would move heaven and earth to get our X's home, the pain being unbearable, all will be forgiven if they just come home. If you truly do the work on yourself over time you begin detach from that desperation and think more rationally. At some juncture you hit the point you think "Who in their right mind would want her/him back". In my own case my kids reached that point before I did, they both think I deserve far better...and they're right.
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I've known my wife for 14 years and we've never had trust issues until she became depressed. She was the most honest, trustworthy person I knew. I trusted her with my life. I don't believe that who she is right now erases what I KNEW about her for 13 years prior. I'm not an idiot. Her children aren't idiots. Her mother isn't an idiot. Her childhood friends aren't idiots. Neither are her aunts, uncles or cousins. If she was a narcissistic, selfish, lying, cheating, secretive, abusive person someone, somewhere would have known it.
Something happened. I personally believe there's a spiritual influence as well as other factors that has come into play. W has admitted to me on several occasions that she does not know what she's doing nor can she control it. She told me a month before BD that she saw a therapist seven months prior. I looked it up and she was telling the truth. She had to recognize something was wrong to see a therapist in Feb 2012. She cheated in Aug 2012. I found out in Nov 2012. The woman that cheated in Aug 2012 admitted to me she started seeing a therapist in Feb 2012 because she fantasized about killing herself. Something was very wrong way before she cheated.
If I truly believed she was happy being this way, I would feel just like Braveheart. In fact, as it is, I feel like he does a lot of times anyway. But deep down I know she's not happy. Why would someone go to such great lengths to hurt themselves?? Something else is wrong. The cheating is just a surface wound in comparison to the hell she's going through. It has to be because that other dude ain't sh*t. (Had to break off the bad English for that one). There's no way under the sun she would sacrifice her family, her reputation, her health for that piece of trash that let her know from day one he was only interested in one thing. No f*cking way.
So...I believe W is sick. I believe she can be made well again. I believe our Heavenly Father is overseeing all of this and will step in and heal His daughter in His timing. I believe He is with me even amidst this suffering. I made a vow to Him that I would stand for better or worse, through sickness and health till DEATH do us part. Yes, I know... the DEATH part is a tough one. Leaves me with no other option but to trust Him. So I do. Even when I shake with anger that it's not over yet. Even when I entertain sinful thoughts in my mind. In the end, I trust Him.
This is the reason I stand. I'll leave all the forgiveness and reconciliation to Him whenever He leads her back home. As my mom says, I'll cross that bridge when I get there.
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Awesome post, Darealist. Pure golden!
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Awesome post, Darealist. Pure golden!
Could not agree more !
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I've known my wife for 14 years and we've never had trust issues until she became depressed. She was the most honest, trustworthy person I knew. I trusted her with my life. I don't believe that who she is right now erases what I KNEW about her for 13 years prior. I'm not an idiot. Her children aren't idiots. Her mother isn't an idiot. Her childhood friends aren't idiots. Neither are her aunts, uncles or cousins. If she was a narcissistic, selfish, lying, cheating, secretive, abusive person someone, somewhere would have known it.
Something happened. I personally believe there's a spiritual influence as well as other factors that has come into play. W has admitted to me on several occasions that she does not know what she's doing nor can she control it. She told me a month before BD that she saw a therapist seven months prior. I looked it up and she was telling the truth. She had to recognize something was wrong to see a therapist in Feb 2012. She cheated in Aug 2012. I found out in Nov 2012. The woman that cheated in Aug 2012 admitted to me she started seeing a therapist in Feb 2012 because she fantasized about killing herself. Something was very wrong way before she cheated.
If I truly believed she was happy being this way, I would feel just like Braveheart. In fact, as it is, I feel like he does a lot of times anyway. But deep down I know she's not happy. Why would someone go to such great lengths to hurt themselves?? Something else is wrong. The cheating is just a surface wound in comparison to the hell she's going through. It has to be because that other dude ain't sh*t. (Had to break off the bad English for that one). There's no way under the sun she would sacrifice her family, her reputation, her health for that piece of trash that let her know from day one he was only interested in one thing. No f*cking way.
So...I believe W is sick. I believe she can be made well again. I believe our Heavenly Father is overseeing all of this and will step in and heal His daughter in His timing. I believe He is with me even amidst this suffering. I made a vow to Him that I would stand for better or worse, through sickness and health till DEATH do us part. Yes, I know... the DEATH part is a tough one. Leaves me with no other option but to trust Him. So I do. Even when I shake with anger that it's not over yet. Even when I entertain sinful thoughts in my mind. In the end, I trust Him.
This is the reason I stand. I'll leave all the forgiveness and reconciliation to Him whenever He leads her back home. As my mom says, I'll cross that bridge when I get there.
Well I had 24 years with a very similar woman, she couldn't lie to save her own life before MLC and now nobody can believe what she has done.
The "Vows" and the bible comes up a lot in these discussions, but the vows you made have already been broken by your X and in the eyes of God you are no longer bound to them. In Biblical times when this occured the wife was often stoned to death, along with the man she was with.
I understand viewing MLC as an illness, as I've mentioned before it most likely related to the hormone hell some women go through leading up to menopause. That would explain why MLC seems to happen to "Women of a certain Age", it also means the hormones that determined a lot her past personality and prevented depression are gone and the woman you knew along with them. I wish things were otherwise, but in all the research I've done on this, women in MLC very, very seldom ever return during the time frame mentioned on these forums.
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Braveheart,
This article pretty much sums up how I feel.
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why should I fight for my marriage?
November 5, 2012 by Kim Sorgius
He/she walked out and here you sit in the ashes of a brokenness that words can not even describe. Advice is cheap and talk is worse. All you want to do is drown out the noise. But it’s impossible. Fears, unknowns, and what-ifs taunt as if they were playground bullies. The mountain of circumstances is so high you can’t even see the peak. And every moment feels alone. Oh, but friend, you are not alone. So many have walked this path and your God, HE has already gone before you.
So, what do you do with the brokenness? Do you walk away? Move on? Find a new love?
May I challenge you to fight for your marriage because…
1. Divorce and remarriage perverts the gospel.
Divorce and remarriage is a perversion of the picture of the relationship between Jesus and His bride, whom he died for and would never, ever, ever divorce. ~Voddie Bauchman
I love these words uttered by Voddie. I mean, honestly, if we refuse to fight for our beloved, why would we expect Christ to fight for us? I would urge you to listen to the Permanence of Marriage sermon by Voddie. He answers all of the tough questions regarding divorce and remarriage and what the Bible says about it all. I pray that you will be challenged, encouraged and equipped for this battle.
{By the way, I have the link to Rev Voddie's sermon if anyone is interested -- DaRealist}
2. Love is how we fulfill the law.
For the whole law is fulfilled in one word: “You shall love your neighbor as yourself.” Galatians 5:14
Don’t think for a second that I read this verse and get warm fuzzies. It’s been far too long for that. Far too many tears and far too many hateful words spat. But, Jesus walked this earth for one purpose only: to fulfill the law and free us from the condemnation of our sinful flesh. Once that law was fulfilled, a new law was given. To love the Lord your God with all your heart, soul, and mind and to love others like yourself. (Rom. 13:8-10)
So the ONLY thing we are asked to do in exchange for the radical sacrifice of our Lord is to love our spouse the way we love ourselves…the way God loves us. When I first started walking this path, the thought that often ran through my mind was- “if I was drowning a pit of sin, would I hope that my beloved would just walk away?” We always push people away when the hurt is deep and the blinders are on. Deep down,though, it’s the last thing we want. So are you really going to stand there shaking your head and watch your spouse jump off a cliff into an eternal rebellion away from God…or will you pray for his/her salvation and restoration?
3. You made a covenant, not a contract.
Covenant love is a never-stopping, never-giving up, unbreaking, always-and-forever love. ~ Jesus Storybook Bible
When you stood before the altar, even if you didn’t know it, you made a covenant. A promise before God, to another person. Most people confuse this covenant with a contract. A contract is about me negotiating what will benefit me. It’s an agreement that I make with nothing in mind outside of myself. For example, the purchase of a house. We go in and write a contract that benefits ourselves. If there was no benefit to ourself, we wouldn’t buy the house. And if the selling party does not hold up their end of the bargain, the deal is off.
But a covenant is about the giving yourself to someone else. It’s the difference between selfishness and servanthood. It is the promise you made in your wedding vows. You didn’t say, I will love you as long as you take the trash out everyday. Or unless you become addicted to porn. The promise was…until DEATH do us part. It was a covenant.
The question is simple, which one has God called us to? Servanthood or selfishness?
4. This has never once been about you.
The chief end of man is to glorify God and enjoy Him forever. ~Westminster Shorter Catechism
No, it’s not fair. The injustice is heinous. Trust me when I say that I know. I can’t tell you how many times I’ve wanted to march down to the court house and demand my rights. How quickly God reminds me, “what rights?” I mean really, what has God promised in His word regarding my rights? Persecution? Suffering for His name? I still can’t find the promise that I deserve to be happy. Oh, I have looked. I bet you have, too. It’s not there.
But there are amazing and fulfilling promises there…if we can just wrap our minds around our purpose. This purpose —> That we were created to glorify God. That’s it. We weren’t created to live a picture perfect life without a single tear. We weren’t created for happiness, success, a big house, or good kids. It’s the hardest part of Christianity to swallow, but the truth is… God DOES sometimes allow hard things in our lives so that His glory can be reveled. We have to trust Him with this. Are you willing to REALLY serve God or will you hang onto the notion that it’s all about you?
5. Disobedience is never blessed by God
Be sure of this: The wicked will not go unpunished, but those who are righteous will go free. Proverbs 11:21
Daily I fight the urge to give up. The pain is excruciating and it’s easy to convince myself that if I “move on” everything will go away. This is a huge lie, friend. Just yesterday I got an email from someone who had given up. It had been years and she was “in love” with someone else. Her husband, ya know the one who was engaged to another woman and swore he would never come back? He called and wants to come home. Why? Because God never lets go of His children. He will not bless sin and rebellion. He continues to convict…forever. Even if you stop praying. (But PLEASE don’t.) One day your beloved will realize that he/she was wrong.
We often look at the story of David and Bathsheba and think that they were blessed. I mean, David killed her hubby and they married happily ever after, right? Ha. Not so much. Go back and read 2 Samuel again. There was no fairytale ending for this sin. The baby died. (12:19) David’s son Amnon raped his half-sister (David’s daughter) Tamar. (13:14) Absalom, killed Amnon for raping his sister (13:32) and then Absalom started a civil war to overthrow David and take over the kingdom. Absalom died in the battle. (18:15) Sound like a fairytale ending? David’s life hardly ends with he and Bathsheba riding off in the sunset, in fact He later takes yet another wife who ends up hating him. He might have been a man after God’s own heart, but he never once got it right with marriage.
My point is this, friend, you do not need to fear the success of your beloved’s adulterous relationship. It will self-destruct in due time. God will see to that. And even if you don’t believe that, have you ever looked at the statistics for remarriage? They are dismal. The statistics for remarriage that starts in adultery? Even worse. They have no chance.
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"My point is this, friend, you do not need to fear the success of your beloved’s adulterous relationship. It will self-destruct in due time. God will see to that. And even if you don’t believe that, have you ever looked at the statistics for remarriage? They are dismal. The statistics for remarriage that starts in adultery? Even worse. They have no chance."
The above says it all, the statistics on remarriage are dismal, that said they are far, far better than the statistics for remarriage to your former spouse.
The word "covenant(s)" occurs 321 times in the bible and yes some of them are conditional. An example of this would be the Adamic Covenant where God promised Adam eternal life if Adam remained obedient to God's word, he didn't and the deal was off. The ten commandments was another, a covenant between God and the Israelites.
Marriage vows are not found anywhere in the bible, it is a cration of man and a conditional covenant between two people, it's broken when the vows are by one or the other.
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Braveheart.... AMEN :)
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Braveheart.... AMEN :)
You're welcome ;) I may not be a church going man, but I've read all their sales literature...
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It's nice to see all the spiritual men on this thread. Something somewhat foreign to me with the former mlcer I dealt with...
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The above says it all, the statistics on remarriage are dismal, that said they are far, far better than the statistics for remarriage to your former spouse.
Do you have an actual source with this statistic for remarriage to your former spouse? "Far, far" is not a number.
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Marriage vows are not found anywhere in the bible, it is a cration of man and a conditional covenant between two people, it's broken when the vows are by one or the other.
Yes, the Bible takes the union of one man and one woman pretty lightly, doesn't it?
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Marriage vows are not found anywhere in the bible,
What people think of as the traditional marriage vows are not from the Bible; they are from The Book of Common Prayer, compiled by the Anglican Church in the 16th century.
Ruth 1:16-17 is often used as a Biblical example of marriage vows:
But Ruth replied, “Don’t urge me to leave you or to turn back from you. Where you go I will go, and where you stay I will stay. Your people will be my people and your God my God. Where you die I will die, and there I will be buried. May the Lord deal with me, be it ever so severely, if even death separates you and me.”
And there are all sorts of statements in the Bible about the sanctity of marriage. Matthew 19:4-6 is the one most people think of:
"Haven't you read," he replied, "that at the beginning the Creator 'made them male and female,' and said, 'For this reason a man will leave his father and mother and be united to his wife, and the two will become one flesh' ? So they are no longer two, but one. Therefore what God has joined together, let man not separate."
And then there's a huge chunk of 1 Corinthians 7—1:11, to be exact:
Now for the matters you wrote about: It is good for a man not to marry. But since there is so much immorality, each man should have his own wife, and each woman her own husband. The husband should fulfill his marital duty to his wife, and likewise the wife to her husband. The wife's body does not belong to her alone but also to her husband. In the same way, the husband's body does not belong to him alone but also to his wife. Do not deprive each other except by mutual consent and for a time, so that you may devote yourselves to prayer. Then come together again so that Satan will not tempt you because of your lack of self-control. I say this as a concession, not as a command. I wish that all men were as I am. But each man has his own gift from God; one has this gift, another has that. Now to the unmarried and the widows I say: It is good for them to stay unmarried, as I am. But if they cannot control themselves, they should marry, for it is better to marry than to burn with passion. To the married I give this command (not I, but the Lord): A wife must not separate from her husband. But if she does, she must remain unmarried or else be reconciled to her husband. And a husband must not divorce his wife.
And even the parts where they talk about divorce only being allowed in the case of sexual immorality, presumably including adultery (Matthew 19:9—"I tell you that anyone who divorces his wife, except for sexual immorality, and marries another woman commits adultery"), it can be seen as the husband being given dispensation if he chooses to divorce, not a commandment to divorce.
You're splitting some mighty fine hairs to claim that the Bible doesn't have marriage vows in it.
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The verse from the book of Ruth is in regarding a mother-in-law situation.
I know because this is how I used to feel about her. Now an ex.
All three women had thier husbands die Naomi decided to go back to her own people after the death of her husband and her sons (thier husbands) . Of the two daughters- in- law one returned to her people as Naomi urged.
But Ruth would not leave her mother-in- law and that verse is what she said to her.
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Here's a link to the Permanence of Marriage sermon by Rev Voddie Baucham. You'll need to download it from this link but it's free and very, very enlightening. Whatever side of the fence you're on, please download and listen on your own time because it is worth it. We can always debate it afterwards.
The Permanence of Marriage
http://www.sermonaudio.com/sermoninfo.asp?SID=11309913170 (http://www.sermonaudio.com/sermoninfo.asp?SID=11309913170)
And I'm gonna add another self explanatory sermon because we ALL need to hear this one.
Gospel Healing for Hurting Marriages
http://www.sermonaudio.com/sermoninfo.asp?SID=5409160500 (http://www.sermonaudio.com/sermoninfo.asp?SID=5409160500)
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The above says it all, the statistics on remarriage are dismal, that said they are far, far better than the statistics for remarriage to your former spouse.
Do you have an actual source with this statistic for remarriage to your former spouse? "Far, far" is not a number.
"Lost and Found Lovers: Facts and Fantasies of Rekindled Romances" a study by Nancy Kalish, Professor emeritus at California State University in Sacramento puts it at 6% for remarriage to an X spouse.
Michele Weiner Davis, founder of the Divorce Busting Center and author of Divorce Busting and The Sex-Starved Marriage; she believes about 10 % is the correct figure, but hasn't provided a study on it to base those claims. I wouldn't give too much credence to Davis's figure because she's in the in the business of selling the idea of marriage reconcilliations.
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Marriage vows are not found anywhere in the bible,
What people think of as the traditional marriage vows are not from the Bible; they are from The Book of Common Prayer, compiled by the Anglican Church in the 16th century.
Ruth 1:16-17 is often used as a Biblical example of marriage vows:
But Ruth replied, “Don’t urge me to leave you or to turn back from you. Where you go I will go, and where you stay I will stay. Your people will be my people and your God my God. Where you die I will die, and there I will be buried. May the Lord deal with me, be it ever so severely, if even death separates you and me.”
And there are all sorts of statements in the Bible about the sanctity of marriage. Matthew 19:4-6 is the one most people think of:
"Haven't you read," he replied, "that at the beginning the Creator 'made them male and female,' and said, 'For this reason a man will leave his father and mother and be united to his wife, and the two will become one flesh' ? So they are no longer two, but one. Therefore what God has joined together, let man not separate."
And then there's a huge chunk of 1 Corinthians 7—1:11, to be exact:
Now for the matters you wrote about: It is good for a man not to marry. But since there is so much immorality, each man should have his own wife, and each woman her own husband. The husband should fulfill his marital duty to his wife, and likewise the wife to her husband. The wife's body does not belong to her alone but also to her husband. In the same way, the husband's body does not belong to him alone but also to his wife. Do not deprive each other except by mutual consent and for a time, so that you may devote yourselves to prayer. Then come together again so that Satan will not tempt you because of your lack of self-control. I say this as a concession, not as a command. I wish that all men were as I am. But each man has his own gift from God; one has this gift, another has that. Now to the unmarried and the widows I say: It is good for them to stay unmarried, as I am. But if they cannot control themselves, they should marry, for it is better to marry than to burn with passion. To the married I give this command (not I, but the Lord): A wife must not separate from her husband. But if she does, she must remain unmarried or else be reconciled to her husband. And a husband must not divorce his wife.
And even the parts where they talk about divorce only being allowed in the case of sexual immorality, presumably including adultery (Matthew 19:9—"I tell you that anyone who divorces his wife, except for sexual immorality, and marries another woman commits adultery"), it can be seen as the husband being given dispensation if he chooses to divorce, not a commandment to divorce.
You're splitting some mighty fine hairs to claim that the Bible doesn't have marriage vows in it.
No, I'm not, "the Vows" as used in Christain marriage are not in the Bible. In biblical times marriage was often a deal arranged between families, the deal sweetened with a substanial dowery to take the daughter off their hands .
What is in there makes it plain the deal is off if the wife is unfaithful, the husband could decide to keep her, or she could be stoned to death. In the case of most of our X's, they are not begging forgiveness, they've already left, some openly living with another man.
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No, I'm not, "the Vows" as used in Christain marriage are not in the Bible. In biblical times marriage was often a deal arranged between families, the deal sweetened with a substanial dowery to take the daughter off their hands .
Don't distract from Stillstanding's post. He CLEARLY pointed out the vows we say when getting married are not from the Bible. But to say the Bible doesn't CLEARLY address making a vow and doesn't CLEARLY address the union of one man and one woman would simply be you spinning the "sales literature" as you call it.
What is in there makes it plain the deal is off if the wife is unfaithful, the husband could decide to keep her, or she could be stoned to death. In the case of most of our X's, they are not begging forgiveness, they've already left, some openly living with another man.
Well, of course they are not begging forgiveness if they have left. I'll quote RCR..."duh". Our spouses are in MLC, man. The MLCer asking for forgiveness comes later....well, except in your case where you've made it CLEAR it ain't happening. So who cares?
And yes, they could be stoned. The woman at the well could have been stoned, but she wasn't, now was she?
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Statistics say that 80% of those who experience a turbulent transition during midlife will remain in the marriage and they themselves will make positive changes that strengthens the marriage. (http://divorcesupport.about.com/od/MidlifeCrisis/qt/Taking-Control-During-Your-Spouses-Midlife-Crisis-Part-I.htm)
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Oh Dam! Im in the other 20%, lol
In my opinion, anybody whose's waiting around for 'stats', well...... Get busy living.... :)
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Statistics say that 80% of those who experience a turbulent transition during midlife will remain in the marriage and they themselves will make positive changes that strengthens the marriage. (http://divorcesupport.about.com/od/MidlifeCrisis/qt/Taking-Control-During-Your-Spouses-Midlife-Crisis-Part-I.htm)
By the same writer who wrote 80% will stay in a marriage during a turbulent midlife transition:
"When a spouse goes into midlife crisis, you must face some painful truths. The odds are against you saving your relationship with your spouse."
http://divorcesupport.about.com/od/isdivorcethesolution/a/get_a_life.htm
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No, I'm not, "the Vows" as used in Christain marriage are not in the Bible. In biblical times marriage was often a deal arranged between families, the deal sweetened with a substanial dowery to take the daughter off their hands .
Don't distract from Stillstanding's post. He CLEARLY pointed out the vows we say when getting married are not from the Bible. But to say the Bible doesn't CLEARLY address making a vow and doesn't CLEARLY address the union of one man and one woman would simply be you spinning the "sales literature" as you call it.
What is in there makes it plain the deal is off if the wife is unfaithful, the husband could decide to keep her, or she could be stoned to death. In the case of most of our X's, they are not begging forgiveness, they've already left, some openly living with another man.
Well, of course they are not begging forgiveness if they have left. I'll quote RCR..."duh". Our spouses are in MLC, man. The MLCer asking for forgiveness comes later....well, except in your case where you've made it CLEAR it ain't happening. So who cares?
And yes, they could be stoned. The woman at the well could have been stoned, but she wasn't, now was she?
My point is people continually bring up "Keeping their marriage vows" like it is a Christian requirement and an unconditional covenant they have to honour regardless of what their spouse has done.....it isn't, there is no such requirement. I already covered the issues of Covenants in the bible and marriage is a conditional covenant that is broken by infidelity, stoning of the unfaithful was law and a common practice that continued well after the death of Jesus. It is also in the bible that Jesus clearly states he was not there to change old testment law, of which stoning the unfaithful was one of.
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My point is people continually bring up "Keeping their marriage vows" like it is a Christian requirement and an unconditional covenant they have to honour regardless of what their spouse has done.....it isn't, there is no such requirement. I already covered the issues of Covenants in the bible and marriage is a conditional covenant that is broken by infidelity, stoning of the unfaithful was law and a common practice that continued well after the death of Jesus. It is also in the bible that Jesus clearly states he was not there to change old testament law, of which stoning the unfaithful was one of.
Braveheart,
Please don't fall out of your seat. I am about to agree with you.
;) ;) ;)
I am not a religious person, although I did spend many, many, many hours during my formidable years reading and studying the Bible.
Covenant marriages exist - I don't mean to state the obvious.
I don't know of many religions that do not allow divorce in the case of infidelity. Yes. The covenant has been broken by the unfaithful spouse.
I think at first (and maybe later?) we all look for "reasons" to Stand. There is so much confusion and doubt...so much pain. Keeping ones marriage vows is a good reason, is it not? And, yet, a marriage is between two people. One of the parties got the h*ll out of Dodge - so that reason no longer works.
Maybe it is difficult to acknowledge that the reason one Stand's for ones marriage - is because the LBS chooses to. That's really it is in the end. A choice. And when it is a choice, rather than an obligation - you are no longer an innocent bystander or a victim of circumstances. You have a choice. You can choose to Stand, or not.
Everyone has choice.
Limitless
On a different note - It is interesting to think that a thread In It started on Men's confidence and hygiene lead to this discussion.
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Please don't fall out of your seat. I am about to agree with you.
;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D
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My point is people continually bring up "Keeping their marriage vows" like it is a Christian requirement and an unconditional covenant they have to honour regardless of what their spouse has done.....it isn't, there is no such requirement. I already covered the issues of Covenants in the bible and marriage is a conditional covenant that is broken by infidelity, stoning of the unfaithful was law and a common practice that continued well after the death of Jesus. It is also in the bible that Jesus clearly states he was not there to change old testament law, of which stoning the unfaithful was one of.
Braveheart,
Please don't fall out of your seat. I am about to agree with you.
;) ;) ;)
I am not a religious person, although I did spend many, many, many hours during my formidable years reading and studying the Bible.
Covenant marriages exist - I don't mean to state the obvious.
I don't know of many religions that do not allow divorce in the case of infidelity. Yes. The covenant has been broken by the unfaithful spouse.
I think at first (and maybe later?) we all look for "reasons" to Stand. There is so much confusion and doubt...so much pain. Keeping ones marriage vows is a good reason, is it not? And, yet, a marriage is between two people. One of the parties got the h*ll out of Dodge - so that reason no longer works.
Maybe it is difficult to acknowledge that the reason one Stand's for ones marriage - is because the LBS chooses to. That's really it is in the end. A choice. And when it is a choice, rather than an obligation - you are no longer an innocent bystander or a victim of circumstances. You have a choice. You can choose to Stand, or not.
Everyone has choice.
Limitless
On a different note - It is interesting to think that a thread In It started on Men's confidence and hygiene lead to this discussion.
My view on using "The Vows" to stand is it's appears to be a last ditch reason that seems a plausible ( a religious obligation) to friends and family when all other explanations for hanging on are exhausted. I must admit I felt much the same way many here have early on after BD about the vows I made, until my own BIL said "Come on Braveheart deep down you know it's an excuse to hang on. You've kept your vows, she didn't, she's left for another man, you're free".
I think some get stuck without someone like my well intentioned BIL to drag them up out of the mud, the Vows were about the last reason I had to justify my stance when all others were no longer sustainable.
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"Come on Braveheart deep down you know it's an excuse to hang on. You've kept your vows, she didn't, she's left for another man, you're free".
How did you feel when he said this to you? Did you feel like you were free?
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"Come on Braveheart deep down you know it's an excuse to hang on. You've kept your vows, she didn't, she's left for another man, you're free".
How did you feel when he said this to you? Did you feel like you were free?
No, but I knew it in my heart to be true and was ready to hear it. It meant a lot coming from him, after all he was talking about his own sister.
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I Know it must have hit you like a ton of bricks coming from him..that's why I asked did you feel free when he said it.
I had someone say to me "Breathe the free air"
I couldn't say anything. I just stood there thinking" I don't want to be free..I want to be married" all I felt was loss and grief.
This time it's different I'm FINALLY FREE!
He told me once (after the divorce) all he felt was relief..I told him all I felt was loss.
Now the relief has finally kicked in for me.
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stoning of the unfaithful was law and a common practice that continued well after the death of Jesus. It is also in the bible that Jesus clearly states he was not there to change old testment law, of which stoning the unfaithful was one of.
He said what translates to abolish or destroy. So again I'll ask....why was the woman at the well not stoned? (And to finish what you began about the law, Jesus finished his sentence with He came to fulfill the law). Maybe that's why the woman at the well wasn't stoned to death? Just maybe.
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When you stood before the altar, even if you didn’t know it, you made a covenant. A promise before God, to another person.
I also stand by this. The Bible tells us that it is better to not vow a vow than to vow a vow and break it. God was a witness to my promise. To me it was as much of a promise to God as it was to my H. I believe God will honor my commitment to what I promised. I will listen for His direction and I will follow His voice.........regardless of whatever outcome I desire in my flesh.
My rewards await me on the other side of the curtain, not here on earth.
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stoning of the unfaithful was law and a common practice that continued well after the death of Jesus. It is also in the bible that Jesus clearly states he was not there to change old testment law, of which stoning the unfaithful was one of.
He said what translates to abolish or destroy. So again I'll ask....why was the woman at the well not stoned? (And to finish what you began about the law, Jesus finished his sentence with He came to fulfill the law). Maybe that's why the woman at the well wasn't stoned to death? Just maybe.
Afraid not...“Think not that I came to destroy the law or the prophets; I came not to destroy, but to fulfill. For verily I say unto you, till heaven and earth pass away, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass away from the law, till all things be accomplished” (Mt. 5:17-18)
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When you stood before the altar, even if you didn’t know it, you made a covenant. A promise before God, to another person.
I also stand by this. The Bible tells us that it is better to not vow a vow than to vow a vow and break it. God was a witness to my promise. To me it was as much of a promise to God as it was to my H. I believe God will honor my commitment to what I promised. I will listen for His direction and I will follow His voice.........regardless of whatever outcome I desire in my flesh.
My rewards await me on the other side of the curtain, not here on earth.
You didn't break your Vow, your spouse did, they broke the covenant of your marriage, which means it's over whether you stand or not.
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In my world Braveheart, its not over until God says its over. ;)
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stoning of the unfaithful was law and a common practice that continued well after the death of Jesus. It is also in the bible that Jesus clearly states he was not there to change old testment law, of which stoning the unfaithful was one of.
He said what translates to abolish or destroy. So again I'll ask....why was the woman at the well not stoned? (And to finish what you began about the law, Jesus finished his sentence with He came to fulfill the law). Maybe that's why the woman at the well wasn't stoned to death? Just maybe.
Afraid not...“Think not that I came to destroy the law or the prophets; I came not to destroy, but to fulfill. For verily I say unto you, till heaven and earth pass away, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass away from the law, till all things be accomplished” (Mt. 5:17-18)
I'm not sure why you typed "Afraid not...", then repeated what I referenced. But, no biggie. Enjoy your evening.
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I can't weigh in on the biblical aspects...i will say..a marriage is both a covenant and a contract..with themselves ,god,and the world around them...unfortunately...society,culture,the law and ...ultimately us..don't honor it
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new thread: http://mlcforum.theherosspouse.com/index.php?topic=4137.0