Midlife Crisis: Support for Left Behind Spouses
Archives => Archived Topics => Topic started by: in it on October 13, 2013, 12:42:55 AM
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Old thread:
http://mlcforum.theherosspouse.com/index.php?topic=4095.150
New thread time...
http://mlcforum.theherosspouse.com/index.php?topic=4137.0
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http://magazine.foxnews.com/love/top-10-qualities-men-are-secretly-looking-women
Is there anything here that your MLcer was before BD?
If not can you see her trying to develope that now?
These traits are also what I look for in a relationship..not necessarily in the order they are listed here. My number 1 would be HONESTY.
I don't know if this is set up to be numbered by importance for men in general..what would each of you say was the 1-10 order of importance for YOU!
Feel free to add anything else that isn't included that you feel is important.
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http://magazine.foxnews.com/love/top-10-qualities-men-are-secretly-looking-women
Is there anything here that your MLcer was before BD?
If not can you see her trying to develope that now?
These traits are also what I look for in a relationship..not necessarily in the order they are listed here. My number 1 would be HONESTY.
I don't know if this is set up to be numbered by importance for men in general..what would each of you say was the 1-10 order of importance for YOU!
Feel free to add anything else that isn't included that you feel is important.
Most of these lists are way off the mark, all most guys want is a loyal woman who's is attractive to him, doesn't expect him to read her mind and is a joy to spend time with.
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OK..the former mlcer I dealt with was none of these so I will go first in what I feel is the most important to ME
TOP TWO
HONEST & INTELLIGENT
Confident
Supportive
Independent- non-materialistic ( as am I)
Sensual
Playful ( and that does NOT include pissing me off just to make me angry because someone thinks it's "cute")
Spontaneous
Laid back
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So BH
You are pretty much as long as they stick it out through hell or high water and remain loyal no matter whatever happens you are ok with that?
It's that simple?
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So BH
You are pretty much as long as they stick it out through hell or high water and remain loyal no matter whatever happens you are ok with that?
It's that simple?
All I ever wanted was that the woman I loved would have my back and I her's through whatever life threw at us. I got to have that for almost half my life and two great kids, for that I will be forever grateful.
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http://www.nurseslearning.com/courses/nrp/NRPCX-W0009/html/body.humor.page7.htm
This goes into how different professions etc use humor to deal with stress. Something we can all use more of in order to combat what's going on.
I have to admit some of the funniest stuff I have ever read has been posted on this board. I can always find a belly laugh when I really need it.
In my own experience in witnessing humor in a fatal situation:
My childhood friend was dying of cancer.
I went to visit her. Everyone who visited knew she was dying.
This dip $h!te walks in who worked with my friend and said:
"Oh Honey ...how are you feeling?"
To which my friend replied
" I've been better"
::)
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Init,
I suspect every man on this board would rank loyalty first Nd as a woman looking for a relationship u should probably key on this as a red flag as a guy carrying to much baggage to be ready for a otters relationship.
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I suspect every man on this board would rank loyalty first Nd as a woman looking for a relationship u should probably key on this as a red flag as a guy carrying to much baggage to be ready for a otters relationship.
I'm sorry elray..I'm not understanding this?
Are you saying if a man is looking for loyalty that he's not ready for another relationship?
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I'm saying if that's a number one with a bullet, then it would be a bad sign.
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Ok first I'm going to say that I think most of these lists prey on people's insecurities. They can either justify hey my spouse isn't any of those or I'll never find all of those. I saw a copy of Cosmo at the store today and felt an urge to buy a copy so I could burn it. Not that I have anything against Cosmo. Could have been men's health. Just trying to sell someone's version of perfect to somene else.
That said, rank me in the honest and intelligent crowd, with a large helping of laid back and several sides of independence and confidence. I think from that all other things spring. Can you be a sensual person without confidence? Can you be loyal without honesty and intelligence?
El Ray, I would offer that I have a tendency to equate loyalty with subservience. Even after BD. I know that's just me. I want to earn that loyalty. If a woman is smart and honest, she'll figure it out and seek to earn my loyalty as well. Small actions. It's a lot like rebuilding that trust following MLC. Welcome to ground zero. Just hoping it's not too radioactive.
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I agree most things are linked to others but if you aren't honest? You are nothing.
But sheer loyalty smacks of subservience to me.
Get a dog.
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my dog is loving and affectionate..but will lay on the couch with just about anybody...
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Well you've got a point there.. ;D ;D ;D
And some dogs will let you beat them and come back for more in the way of unconditional love.
I interpret loyalty as;
If one person expects it without returning it whats the point? That's sheer loyalty to me. A one way street.I manage to encounter that more often than not. Respect and loyalty go hand in hand to me. No one is loyal right off the bat in any relationship. That (like respect) is earned imho.
If you are talking about loyalty in these long term relationships we've all been in (or are in ) some sort of trust may have been broken somewhere. I'm not talking just physically. the breakdown of communication is a big one. Partners have to trust that if something is wrong they should be able to talk about it. This isn't always the case.
In regards to friendships? I consider myself a loyal friend and a friend to me is someone you can say anything too..talk about anything too and not fear rejection, anger, or judgement.
Sure we have fights, misunderstandings, big and small. But when things reach a level of understanding ( BOTH WAYS) it's resolved.
I've had one friend since I was 8. And they are not a relative. But they are female.
What's your definition of loyalty?..Anybody?
These mlcer are the ones who are running from whatever it is that haunts them. Be it mortality, unresolved issues, or whatever else seems to be the problem. I'm not blaming;I'm just saying.
I think some know what the issues are and would rather stick thier heads in the sand in the form of denial and blame everybody else, rewrite history, find a CLEAN SLATE, and move on, and others really have no idea what's going on.
Chemical and hormonal imbalance may play into it. There is a physical aspect to consider. But honestly? I don't see it as an explanation for the behavior on it's own.
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Well you've got a point there.. ;D ;D ;D
And some dogs will let you beat them and come back for more in the way of unconditional love.
I interpret loyalty as;
If one person expects it without returning it whats the point? That's sheer loyalty to me. A one way street.I manage to encounter that more often than not. Respect and loyalty go hand in hand to me. No one is loyal right off the bat in any relationship. That (like respect) is earned imho.
If you are talking about loyalty in these long term relationships we've all been in (or are in ) some sort of trust may have been broken somewhere. I'm not talking just physically. the breakdown of communication is a big one. Partners have to trust that if something is wrong they should be able to talk about it. This isn't always the case.
In regards to friendships? I consider myself a loyal friend and a friend to me is someone you can say anything too..talk about anything too and not fear rejection, anger, or judgement.
Sure we have fights, misunderstandings, big and small. But when things reach a level of understanding ( BOTH WAYS) it's resolved.
I've had one friend since I was 8. And they are not a relative. But they are female.
What's your definition of loyalty?..Anybody?
These mlcer are the ones who are running from whatever it is that haunts them. Be it mortality, unresolved issues, or whatever else seems to be the problem. I'm not blaming;I'm just saying.
I think some know what the issues are and would rather stick thier heads in the sand in the form of denial and blame everybody else, rewrite history, find a CLEAN SLATE, and move on, and others really have no idea what's going on.
Chemical and hormonal imbalance may play into it. There is a physical aspect to consider. But honestly? I don't see it as an explanation for the behavior on it's own.
In cases where there really has been no serious isses within the marriage, it does resembles mental illness, which we now know is a case of chemical and hormonal imbalances effecting the brain. From what I've read a lot of these MLC women have said they "Just wanted to run away" from their life. Some got to the point just the sight of their husband appearing happy sent them into a rage.
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Some got to the point just the sight of their husband appearing happy sent them into a rage.
And this is just part of the reason why:
There are HUGE stressors women undergo that men will not ever be able to relate to. I'm not saying men are worthless regarding this.
But when you've carried a baby inside your body for 9 months dealt with a physical delivery then the care of just one child? If you aren't nuts by the end of all of that..I have no idea what kind of parent you would make.
And OUR bodies change hormonally EVERYDAY to provide that particular function. TO GIVE BIRTH. This doesn't make us some kind of freak..we can create LIFE inside our bodies with the help of you guys. We aren't a "pain in the ass" unless you would rather not be bothered to understand it.
Now when those hormones stop working things change..with some women A LOT.
For me six months and I was done thankfully..no hot flashes.. no nothing and that was in the middle of all of this crap. To try to blame hormones in regards to women's behavior is about the same as saying it for men.
And if men want to simply deny their testosterone levels MIGHT be a little low or anything else is just fine..I'd see more than one doctor.
In my experience there has NEVER EVER been anything "wrong" with any of the men in my life..ask them..they'll tell you. It's me.
And UNTIL I meet a real man that actually makes the effort to understand me? I will continue on the path of being by myself.
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Okay had to say this.
So everything in it describes about what a woman goes through to have a baby and all the after effects, which for some of us were severe. For a man to turn around and say he resents the woman for spending so much time with said baby or babies and that her attention is all taken up in their care. That they felt neglected etc etc. Omg is that not the most selfish thing that can come out a man,s mouth?
Too true, this is the test of a real man who will appreciate what his wife has been through and help her, not complain for themselves.
Okay, just sayin :-)
Sd
X
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A baby changes the relationship between a man and wife. It has good sides and bad sides.
When a man expresses resentment, he is simply saying he is not happy with the change. Many, many humans react negatively to change. Usually, its a control issue. Maybe you can be lucky and find someone who embraces change and rolls with life. That's the kind of guy I always tried to be.
We had 3 children very closely together, and looking back, I can see she used the children as an excuse to hide and withdrawl. I never expressed the resentment I felt about that -- I felt it was selfish of me. We got thru those times, and moved on to better days (and full nights of sleep).
But now that I see her hiding and withrdrawing again, I wonder if I avoided confrontation, and allowed a bad pattern to go unaddressed -- I certainly believe that I have a habit of avoiding confrontation to a point where we lost intimacy because I wasn't being real about my feelings. We co-enabled each other in that regard. So I'm not sure you want the man who doesn't express himself either. Just sayin'
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Totally Agree that kids are a big change, and totally agree that some can not handle change well. But....... When a man expresses resentment toward his own children, that's like the biggest betrayal ever. They are precious beings and to have the person who lay down and made those precious beings with you decide that their own needs are greater than those of a helpless child is a little on the totally selfish side. It makes you see the man in a very different light.
Just for the record there is nothing more attractive than a man who adores, plays and cares for his children. (Thunder take note!).
Confronting something is only confrontational if its done in a confrontational way, otherwise it's plain old sorting an issue out between two adults. I have always thought that its okay to say I don't agree or how i fel but always appreciate that others have their own opinion. Nothing to be scared of. And yip keeping it in brings about a whole world of problems. Ask my h !!,
Sd
X
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For a man to turn around and say he resents the woman for spending so much time with said baby or babies and that her attention is all taken up in their care. That they felt neglected etc etc. Omg is that not the most selfish thing that can come out a man,s mouth?
PRETTY MUCH!!!
He was yelling at me once that I put him on the "back burner" AH...HELLO!!?? I'm nursing up half the night , the baby throws up all over me, I'm stressed to the max she's going to get sick, I hardly feel attractive more like a milk truck. Then have a SECOND ONE.
Babies that aren't sick are a blessing I cannot imagine a handicapped or sick child..(I have no idea how I would survive through that.)
AND then HE feels neglected??? GROW THE F*CK UP! I'll tell you I almost killed him when he accused me of putting the kids in front of his "needs".
Betrayed? yep I'm thinking about making it my middle name. No pity party intended.
But now that I see her hiding and withrdrawing again, I wonder if I avoided confrontation, and allowed a bad pattern to go unaddressed -- I certainly believe that I have a habit of avoiding confrontation to a point where we lost intimacy because I wasn't being real about my feelings. We co-enabled each other in that regard. So I'm not sure you want the man who doesn't express himself either. Just sayin'
EXACTLY!!!! His problem was he didn't want to make himself VULNERABLE and look weak as a man... so he didn't express anything to me OTHER THAN BLAME!
Only once did he say to me when I gave birth to our first daughter " What a gift you have given me"
Now you two seem to have a handle on this part when the kids show up ..YES it's a MAJOR stressor for us if we are any kind of mother at all.
If a major loss gets thrown in there the recipe for disaster starts to happen. It could be anything.
The sooner we accept it's life conditions that led to this? We'll deal with it better.
Right now do what's best for YOU and don't worry about her.
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http://magazine.foxnews.com/love/top-10-qualities-men-are-secretly-looking-women
In the above link the word secretly is being used with the wrong set of qualities. I have never had anyone come to me and put their hand in front of their mouth and whisper, "don't tell anyone, because it's a secret and I don't want anyone to find out because I will never live it down, but I'm secretly looking for a woman who is confident, intelligent, unmaterialistic, spontaneous, laid-back, playful, sensual, honest, independent and supportive."
The "secret", if there is one, is that some men marry women with the aforementioned positive qualities but secretly hanker after women who are dishonest, capable of cheating, are materialistic and less intelligent than themselves. You only have to look at all the affair-down stories here and elsewhere to see what some men are secretly looking for.
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Thanks Honour!
In another article I read this is THE best written explanation I've seen for this particular thing I'm sure all men can relate to.
Now I know you want to "fix" this when you have it happen. I know you are going to say you are not mind readers (either are we) but believe me when a woman tells you "she's fine" or "everything's fine"......she's lying.
The rest of this article didn't apply for me so I only took the top part.
This isn't the same one Honour pointed out.
1. Say we’re “fine,” when we’re really not fine.
If you haven’t done this, you have yet to graduate to womanhood. Nothing’s more frustrating that being angered by a man only to have him not understand why you are upset with him. Your only adequate recourse: say you’re “fine,” and expect him to figure it out on his own. Obviously.
Why do we do this? In some cases, it’s because right after an argument, we haven’t gotten our thoughts together to adequately explain why we’re unhappy; in other cases it’s because we’re not feeling assertive enough in the moment to explain what’s bothering us. Often enough, however, it results from just wanting the dude to know what’s up without us having to spell everything out for him which, we realize, isn’t always the best strategy.
The green part kills me ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D
In a nutshell if we feel you are not "tuned in" enough to figure out why we are pissed off? Again resentment builds.
What's the problem? Communication. We withhold waiting for YOU to SEE and understand why something might be wrong. I have a million examples of this.
Maybe it's the fact that in one day 5 or 10 little things have built up. Again it's long term relationships. It's the same thing over and over and over again.
Maybe you took the garbage out ( a GOOD thing) but we (being overwhelmed with other things) get pissed because you didn't put a new bag in the wastebasket and we're trying to make dinner with a handful of crap in our hands to throw away and guess what? No new garbage bag. We then have to put down what's in our hands and put a new bag in the garbage can.
Or the toilet paper thing, or the sock thing, or the recyclable tea bottles left all over the place, or the toilet seats up or whatever!
Then lets add kids. Somebody can't find thier homework, somebody's got a cold somebody's got an after school thing.etc etc etc..
Then lets add the pets. A litter box has to be cleaned, or somebody has to be let out or walked, somebody peed or threw up on the floor, somebody has to go to the vet...
EVERYBODY HAS TO BE FED..
And the house needs to be cleaned and dishes done.
Then if you have a wife that works outside the home? WOW there's a whole other part of her day that may be unasked about or disregarded entirely.
We TRY to be superwomen We don't want to ask for help we want you to see what it is we do and HELP us do it.
Now granted some days there may be just no making us happy..Guess what? it's not your job; it's ours.
But if you get unplugged enough that you can't see someone you have lived with FOR YEARS is overwhelmed. You are going to have one pissed off individual on your hands..IMHO.
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The "secret", if there is one, is that some men marry women with the aforementioned positive qualities but secretly hanker after women who are dishonest, capable of cheating, are materialistic and less intelligent than themselves. You only have to look at all the affair-down stories here and elsewhere to see what some men are secretly looking for.
And wow is this true Honour because you otta get a load of the pig the former mlcer dumped his family for.
Again over time; the honest women they had just were too "good" for them.Maybe the started to feel unworthy WHO KNOWS!
They wanted to be the lead dog..smarter and whatever!
In the case of a woman dumping a good, honest, intelligent, caring, giving, considerate, loving, hard working, man?
As far as I'm concerned she's got issues that happened way before you in childhood. Things she hasn't told you.
Or she is simply OVERWHELMED and looking for a way OUT because she may have convinced herself you could give a $h!te less. DUE to the lack of expression.
Just MHO.
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In a nutshell if we feel you are not "tuned in" enough to figure out why we are pissed off? Again resentment builds.
What's the problem? Communication. We withhold waiting for YOU to SEE and understand why something might be wrong. I have a million examples of this.
Maybe it's the fact that in one day 5 or 10 little things have built up. Again it's long term relationships. It's the same thing over and over and over again.
Maybe you took the garbage out ( a GOOD thing) but we (being overwhelmed with other things) get pissed because you didn't put a new bag in the wastebasket and we're trying to make dinner with a handful of crap in our hands to throw away and guess what? No new garbage bag. We then have to put down what's in our hands and put a new bag in the garbage can.
Or the toilet paper thing, or the sock thing, or the recyclable tea bottles left all over the place, or the toilet seats up or whatever!
Then lets add kids. Somebody can't find thier homework, somebody's got a cold somebody's got an after school thing.etc etc etc..
Then lets add the pets. A litter box has to be cleaned, or somebody has to be let out or walked, somebody peed or threw up on the floor, somebody has to go to the vet...
EVERYBODY HAS TO BE FED..
And the house needs to be cleaned and dishes done.
Then if you have a wife that works outside the home? WOW there's a whole other part of her day that may be unasked about or disregarded entirely.
We TRY to be superwomen We don't want to ask for help we want you to see what it is we do and HELP us do it.
Now granted some days there may be just no making us happy..Guess what? it's not your job; it's ours.
But if you get unplugged enough that you can't see someone you have lived with FOR YEARS is overwhelmed. You are going to have one pissed off individual on your hands..IMHO.
Being single is so underrated.
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NO KIDDING!!!!!
;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D
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well...we could also look at the gems these women abandon their husbands and children for...stud muffins all.?..I think not lol...jest sayin'...the irony is that most of these errant men and women trade down for someone they wouldn't have given a passing thought to...
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EXACTLY!! I've had a few guys make a pass at me since all of this ended..started whatever but I still won't give them the time of day for that reason.
I do NOT think all men are beneath me. It's just I have a strong sense of myself.
Sure I get lonely; who doesn't? But I'd rather be lonely BY MYSELF than being in the situation I was in.
I think it's more that I don't trust who's ATTRACTED to me being a narcissist magnet.
These women I have NO idea what they see in these losers they pick.I again it's a reflection of their own SELF-WORTH.
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Thanks Honour!
In another article I read this is THE best written explanation I've seen for this particular thing I'm sure all men can relate to.
Now I know you want to "fix" this when you have it happen. I know you are going to say you are not mind readers (either are we) but believe me when a woman tells you "she's fine" or "everything's fine"......she's lying.
The rest of this article didn't apply for me so I only took the top part.
This isn't the same one Honour pointed out.
1. Say we’re “fine,” when we’re really not fine.
If you haven’t done this, you have yet to graduate to womanhood. Nothing’s more frustrating that being angered by a man only to have him not understand why you are upset with him. Your only adequate recourse: say you’re “fine,” and expect him to figure it out on his own. Obviously.
Why do we do this? In some cases, it’s because right after an argument, we haven’t gotten our thoughts together to adequately explain why we’re unhappy; in other cases it’s because we’re not feeling assertive enough in the moment to explain what’s bothering us. Often enough, however, it results from just wanting the dude to know what’s up without us having to spell everything out for him which, we realize, isn’t always the best strategy.
The green part kills me ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D
In a nutshell if we feel you are not "tuned in" enough to figure out why we are pissed off? Again resentment builds.
What's the problem? Communication. We withhold waiting for YOU to SEE and understand why something might be wrong. I have a million examples of this.
Maybe it's the fact that in one day 5 or 10 little things have built up. Again it's long term relationships. It's the same thing over and over and over again.
Maybe you took the garbage out ( a GOOD thing) but we (being overwhelmed with other things) get pissed because you didn't put a new bag in the wastebasket and we're trying to make dinner with a handful of crap in our hands to throw away and guess what? No new garbage bag. We then have to put down what's in our hands and put a new bag in the garbage can.
Or the toilet paper thing, or the sock thing, or the recyclable tea bottles left all over the place, or the toilet seats up or whatever!
Then lets add kids. Somebody can't find thier homework, somebody's got a cold somebody's got an after school thing.etc etc etc..
Then lets add the pets. A litter box has to be cleaned, or somebody has to be let out or walked, somebody peed or threw up on the floor, somebody has to go to the vet...
EVERYBODY HAS TO BE FED..
And the house needs to be cleaned and dishes done.
Then if you have a wife that works outside the home? WOW there's a whole other part of her day that may be unasked about or disregarded entirely.
We TRY to be superwomen We don't want to ask for help we want you to see what it is we do and HELP us do it.
Now granted some days there may be just no making us happy..Guess what? it's not your job; it's ours.
But if you get unplugged enough that you can't see someone you have lived with FOR YEARS is overwhelmed. You are going to have one pissed off individual on your hands..IMHO.
I did it all, laundry, vacuumed, diapers, cooked , made lunches, ran the kids everywhere...and it didn't make a damn bit of a difference. Studies have actually shown that where a guy who actually does more in the home is more likely to get divorced by his wife.
The women who make these complaints almost never clue into the fact their husband is just as overwhelmed, probably stuck in a job he hates, but can't quit or they'll loose everything, then does all the yard work, home maintenance and daddy duties after work. On top of that he's supposed to be able to read her mind that she's angry about unimportant crap like litter boxes and garbage bags? It's all crap to cover up the fact she's just not happy with her choices , life isn't the fairy tale she thought it would be and she wants "a redo"
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It's all crap to cover up the fact she's just not happy with her choices , life isn't the fairy tale she thought it would be and she wants "a redo"
Hey that's possible also!
We get sold that "fairy tale" from day one. Cinderella, Snow White, name it. Is it realist..no.
If you did all of that then I applaud you.. it must have a communication breakdown somehwre.
The former mlcer I dealt with traveled 1 hour 20 minutes one way to work everyday. I did EVERYTHING ELSE paid the bills ran the entire house home schooled the kids. etc.
He came up the driveway one day so dejected and sick of the drive do you know what I told him?
QUIT YOUR JOB !!! I can SEE it's making you miserable..WE will figure it out!
the house was paid for we had money set aside..we are both creative I could SEE another way to go with this..but he looked at me and said:
I can't quit my job.
Less than a year later his idea was:
He flew into a rage at work allegedly held his boss to the wall by his throat and lost his job after a year long legal battle..
Who'd idea was less stressful?
Fairy tale? No I never bought into that. I wanted a family and a life. But I guess I can't have both.
Technically it comes down to each person taking the other for granted. I didn't think he'd EVER cheat on me like this..I have no friggin' idea what he thought.
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'doing it all.'...truth is..it doesn't matter...and yes maybe it makes it worse ..but none of it makes a difference...you can't fill an empty soul..
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I did it all, laundry, vacuumed, diapers, cooked , made lunches, ran the kids everywhere...and it didn't make a damn bit of a difference. Studies have actually shown that where a guy who actually does more in the home is more likely to get divorced by his wife.
The women who make these complaints almost never clue into the fact their husband is just as overwhelmed, probably stuck in a job he hates, but can't quit or they'll loose everything, then does all the yard work, home maintenance and daddy duties after work. On top of that he's supposed to be able to read her mind that she's angry about unimportant crap like litter boxes and garbage bags? It's all crap to cover up the fact she's just not happy with her choices , life isn't the fairy tale she thought it would be and she wants "a redo"
Braveheart, I can't begin to say that I am right there with you in this! I did the same exact things in my marriage and it was not appreciated at all. >:( To me, there seems to be something deep inside our MLCers that keep them from accepting that marriage is a joint venture, not solo. I hope that one day some woman will appreciate and respect that I will provide assistance and not be looked at or criticized for being who I AM deep down. That is the way I was raised and I WILL NOT change who I am. Not for anyone! Like me for who I am, otherwise don't waste my time!
When I got married, the priest told both my W and I that marriage isn't a 50/50 proposition, it's a 75/25, you give 75 and get 25. Apparently MLCers aren't up on that percentage. They want 0/100!
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It's all communication. The challenge is most people don't know how to communicate effectively. I tried to do what my W asked me, but invariable it was wrong in some fashion, or the rules changed. Now, whose fault is it? Hers for not communicating or mine for not listening? Both.
I mean it is super easy to get just completely bent out of shape when someone continuously leaves laundry in the dryer over and over and over again, and when you go to put a load in, well, here's a new level of work to do. Super. It took me a while to reason with myself that, hey, you know, she probably forgot. Not a big deal. Just let it go. And part of it is I wouldn't say anything specifically because I knew she was up to her neck in other stuff.
I had and still do have great empathy for what my W is going through. The funny thing is now I've detached a bit and I can see the depression. But I know it's not all about me. I'm simply not that effective to cause someone to be that depressed. I know I'm not easy to live with, but that's a whole other level of depression that even I can't cause.
Now, here's the challenge. If I'm not a good listener, how do a I see that when I'm busy being bent out of shape about the little things. And how does she communicate she's overwhelmed if she doesn't even realize what's overwhelming her (everything) but is just assigning blame. Which is where the whole idea of detachment and working on yourself is the what's the key. You can't communicate if you don't know what you want or what is really bothering you. I'm not bent because you forgot to put a trash bag in. I'm bent because I'm tired, stressed, doing all these things and that's what caused me to snap. Well, ok, let's work with that. How do we balance the workload better.
But communication requires two people talking to each other, not at each other or past each other.
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For Me? Rover hit the nail right on the head...you can't fill up someone elses's soul.
And yes it would be nice if we woman listed off the million things that might be stressing us..we just seem to think it's pretty obvious. So I'll hand you the communication is lacking part Zendog.
He had anger issues I just couldn't work with anymore. Always did..MLC just magnified it.
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Studies have actually shown that where a guy who actually does more in the home is more likely to get divorced by his wife.
I wish I had seen that study before I got married!
I hope that one day some woman will appreciate and respect that I will provide assistance and not be looked at or criticized for being who I AM deep down. That is the way I was raised and I WILL NOT change who I am. Not for anyone! Like me for who I am, otherwise don't waste my time!
Exactly! And if the right woman doesn't come along, well then, I guess we'll enjoy the journey of eliminating all the bad ones along the way. Sort of a catch-and-release approach, I would say. ;-D
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You got it Elray...play the card game GO FISH!! ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D
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I may be ill... http://www.huffingtonpost.com/rielle-hunter/apology_b_4100599.html?utm_hp_ref=divorce&ir=Divorce
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Rover,
My stomach is turning in circles right now, as well.
"Back in 2006, I did not think about the scope of my actions, how my falling in love with John Edwards, and acting on that love (definition - not my fault. I "fell in love."), could hurt so many people. "
"Unfortunately, I was not thinking about anyone but myself. I was selfish. I fell in love with John Edwards and wanted to be with him and that desire trumped everything else." (definition - not my fault. I "fell in love.")
"I am a product of infidelity. Both of my parents cheated on each other, and as a kid it damaged me." (definition - See! Not my fault! My parents damaged me. So I went on to damage my child and my "lover's" children. NOT MY FAULT! I DIDN'T KNOW ANY BETTER!.)
"I then grew up, fell in love with a married man, and caused even more damage." (definition - HERE WE GO AGAIN! I "fell in love." Can't help who you fall in love with, right? NOT MY FAULT!)
"If I hurt you, I am sorry. It was not my intention, I was thoughtless and selfish, and I am sorry."
(IF!!!! IF!!!! Really? After all this, now she states "IF" she hurt anyone???)
That has to be the most unapologetic apology that I have ever read.
Yes. It makes me sick.
She makes me sick.
And, the sad thing is, she will make $$ on her book - all the while justifying her actions due to the fact that she "fell in love."
Amazing.
L
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affairs by definition are always selfish,destructive and tacky but this one was heartless ,cruel and sleazy ..
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I read his book..well written... but the contents made me want to puke...
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http://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/the-attraction-doctor/201304/can-men-and-women-be-just-friends
Not sure how many women read this thread also but it's informative for both.IMHO.
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will have to read that article again..may be more to it than meets the eye
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Definitely ..I tend to agree with the word at the very end.
No.
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on the other hand maybe they should stay away from coffee lol
http://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/the-attraction-doctor/201108/5-ways-coffee-can-help-you-fall-in-love
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HA HA HA ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D
So what do YOU suggest???
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well..if they can't tell the difference between caffiene buzz and love or arousal..we are all doomed..on the other hand Starbuck's popularity is explained
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;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D OMG!!!!
Hey they can get 10.00 for a cup of coffee if they wanted too!
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http://www.5lovelanguages.com/
More importantly do you know what YOURS is?
I found for me they changed over time. The book is great! I'm not sure what's available on the website.
CAN take the mystery out of the whole "mind reading thing" if you want to communicate it to someone who's open to it in a HEALTHY relationship. ( Whatever that is ;D ;D ;D)
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I would gladly pay money to not have to be a mind reader. Because I stink at it.
On the other question about can women and men be friends. The article had some interesting points. Now here's the question. Since I've been married — and frankly well before that — I thought I had friendships with women. But I sort of understood it was almost an unbalanced friendship. But it wasn't necessarily all unbalanced to one side or the other. It ebbed and flowed. But there are things i've gotten out of friendships with women that I could clearly not get out of friendships with men, and vice versa.
So what I see is it's good to a diversified portfolio of friends.
In It, what is this whole "healthy relationship" you speak of? Truly a unicorn. :)
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Well... you did notice I ended that with ( whatever that is) ....Correct?
So how the hell should I know? ;D ;D ;D ;D
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I just tell people I'm retired...
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Well I got fired...then I quit....
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Interesting
http://www.healthcentral.com/alzheimers/c/42/136856/frontotemporal
http://renegadehealth.com/blog/2012/06/13/midlife-crisis-depression-may-increase-risk-of-dementiahow-to-navigate-the-transition-exclusive-renegade-health-article
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Interesting...seems to add up.
Too bad more of them don't do some research to understand THEMSELVES but oh I forgot! See?.... my brain isn't processing this RIGHT! Must have hit a crazy bump somewhere.
There's NOTHING wrong with them so why would they look?
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guess my point is that some of these disasters have a deeper meaning..its not about rights or empowerment and maybe they shouldn't be applauded by popular culture the media etc..
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Of course it shouldn't.
Divorces and destruction of marriages and families are just that..nothing more.There's no funeral given no acknowledgement of the the way things went. There's " no fault" divorce.
Get a car, get a tattoo, get some bimbo or amoral man to comfort you
THAT's the answer.
Meanwhile NO ONE CONSIDERS THE KIDS!
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lol..you are so right..I scan divorce sites looking for fodder for the blog...its amazing..all the how divorce is wonderful and empowering..great for everyone......what is really sickening..is all the dating gym botox flirting how to get married again and have a perfect repeat wedding and marriage advice..
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Yep mean while the kids deal with the fall out.
You are all really good Dads here. I've never seen so many men genuinely CARE about their kids...
You have NO idea what that means to me!
NO OW's for you either! Keep the kids out of it!!
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basic math I learned husband + wife + children = family....when someone changes the equation..subtracts the husband and wife it becomes : kids= family
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Yep and my kids are with him due to his abuse of me kicking me out and assaulting me.
So now:
Kids=him
And I'm not going back..
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http://www.midlifebachelor.com/articles/whentosendflowers1.html
Here we go... who wants to buy into this $h!te?
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http://www.midlifebachelor.com/articles/whentosendflowers1.html
Here we go... who wants to buy into this $hit?
All the good stuff is in their forum.
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That's GREAT Brave Heart!! I'm glad I finally found a website that was helpful!
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5 part article on when to buy flowers..wow..it's not that hard..but ultimately it doesn't matter..my wife got flowers almost every month for 19 years..(just bouquets..I saved roses for Valentine's etc)..and I missed one special date in 19 years..despite the noise they make about it..it doesn't matter
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I've said through the years NEEDS CHANGE and they do for YOU GUYS ALSO.
What would you guys want a woman to do for you after a fight etc? And other situations this website presents?
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“Patty had married “a really great guy,” but by the time their 13th anniversary rolled around, she had a long list of things he needed to change to make the marriage work. At 34, she felt depressed, frantic—and guilty, as Rod was fighting a chronic disease. But she had reached a breaking point. “I read my husband my list of unmet needs and suggested a divorce,” even though what she really wanted was her marriage back. “I wanted to feel loved again. But it didn’t seem possible.”
She has had a long time to think about that list. Her husband died the next day, a freak side effect of his medications. “He was gone, but the list remained. Out of perhaps 30 needs, only one was eased by losing him. I was free now to move the drinking glasses next to the sink.”
from Psychology today
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How do you respond to THAT! lol
Hey, people are 'needy'. That's forever i guess.... hmmmm.
Show's you the POWER of the mind! :o
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Yeah I'm a little lost also. I read it earlier.
Can someone explain what they think about that story?..explain it to me like I'm 6.
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its an anecdote I found..to me it means .. the issue wasn't her husband..nothing was 'better' when he was gone...and while what she wanted was a better marriage..her solution was to ask for a divorce..
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I guess it's that communication thing again..huh?
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I guess it's that communication thing again..huh?
No, communication was not the problem. She was communicating, she communicated her list of needs to him. She spelt it all out in a list.
The article goes on to say:
As she read through the list the morning after he died, she realized that "marriage isn't about my needs or his needs or about how well we communicate about our needs. It's about loving and being loved. Life is about meeting (or letting go of) my own needs. Marriage is about loving another person and receiving love in return. It suddenly became oh so clear that receiving love is something I make happen, not him." And then she was flooded with memories of all the times "I'd been offered love by this wonderful man and rejected it because I was too wrapped up in whatever need I was facing at the time."
http://www.psychologytoday.com/articles/201003/the-expectations-trap
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Agreed!
It was her 'internal' self that was the problem.... Kinda like uhmmmm, our spouse's.
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OK...so we have relationships to NOT get our needs met??
We just accept whatever is offered and fit ourselves in around someone elses issues and have relationships in OUR OWN HEADS?
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OK...so we have relationships to NOT get our needs met??
What are your needs?
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LOL, read the last line.....He's dead and she gets to move the glasses. GOOD trade off! Lol JK.
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It's why we 'get married' for all the wrong reasons. Bring your own 'identity' to a marriage, do not 'expect' the spouse to fill in your 'inadequacies'. hmmmm.
Forgot where I read that....
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OK try this one on for size...
It's not how we deal with the way we are compatible; it's how we deal with the in-incompatibilities we have.
My needs personally Honour? At this point in time?
Is to be respected for the pain I have been through and the experience I have had. I'm trying to share it as it helps me heal and seems to help other people also.
But I am not dealing with an MLCER I'm dealing with a TEXTBOOK narcissist. A control freak to the nth degree. His MID LIFE only magnified the problem.
And I was codependent on him to find some VALUE in me. Which just isn't possible. I am an ACOA .
Narcissism seems to be a BIG part of this MLC everyone is going through.
WOMEN can also be a narcissist.
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I think both bring an identity to the table..and then they combine and form a shared one..the real issue is using your spouse as a whipping boy...everybody has failures , disappointments and regrets ..unmet dreams..but you accept them and keep going..that's what a marriage is supposed to do ..make your life doable ,bearable and have meaning..things may not always be your way..but that is part of the deal..
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Or whipping girl...
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or whipping girl..of course..there's plenty of flogging been going on
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To ME?
MARRIAGE = COMMITMENT
Come hell or high water..it didn't mean that for him.
Anybody else with me on this? Can we agree we feel about the same way in regards to our spouses / exspouses?
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My needs personally Honour? At this point in time?
Is to be respected for the pain I have been through and the experience I have had. I'm trying to share it as it helps me heal and seems to help other people also.
But I am not dealing with an MLCER I'm dealing with a TEXTBOOK narcissist. A control freak to the nth degree. His MID LIFE only magnified the problem.
You have my respect. I know only too well (I'm not referring to my ex wife) how this personality type can abuse and drain the life-force and self-worth from their victims.
In the Psychology Today article Patty's realization that, "Marriage is about loving another person and receiving love in return." is valid but the "receiving love in return" part will never happen if you have been ensnared by narcissist. As I'm sure you are only too painfully aware, narcs only know how to take and abuse.
I wish you well with your healing and recovery.
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COMMITMENT.
That's where I'm at. I'm committed to thks marriage come hell or high water.
I made a commitment. You make it work. You don't quit. You know somebody for 20 years and you can't find any happiness.
You have to be happy with yourself otherwise there's nothing anyone can do to make you happy.
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You have my respect. I know only too well (I'm not referring to my ex wife) how this personality type can abuse and drain the life-force and self-worth from their victims.
In the Psychology Today article Patty's realization that, "Marriage is about loving another person and receiving love in return." is valid but the "receiving love in return" part will never happen if you have been ensnared by narcissist. As I'm sure you are only too painfully aware, narcs only know how to take and abuse.
I wish you well with your healing and recovery.
Thank you Honour SO MUCH!!
Now if you are a praying man?..Please pray for my daughters..he has them.
They are NOT ME... But they can sustain him.
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In It... you also have my respect. I get so much of what you are saying. My xW was not a narcissist but someone with a personality disorder nevertheless. I also think that mid life has brought it our more pronounced.
I believe she has an Avoidant Personality Disorder, and she was never able to open up to me. She did not have the same emotional needs that I now find that I need. I like to be supported emotionally, I like affection, I like to talk about desires, wants and needs. My xW is just not capable.
I knew she loved me, I knew she was happy to see me, but to really think about it, I don't think she ever complimented me, or dare I question, did she ever say she loved me!? I know she wrote it in cards when we were young. but let's say in the last 5 to 7 years, I don't think she told me she loved me. I don't think she hugged me for no reason or complimented me... I don't think I am rewriting history... I remember she used to massage my back... many years ago I believe we would hug a little before we woke up... I just really am forgetting.... I just don't remember. I also don't remember her ever saying thank you or i'm sorry.
I don't think she can satisfy my needs anymore. It's sad really.
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It is truly sad..two people who've spent so much of a life together not being able to emotionally share things.
Too afraid of being vulnerable as to maybe expose something to be used as fodder later..in a fight or whatever...
"I'm sorry" were two words we never said to each other until it was over.
I don't think he knew what they meant. I said them first... and he just went along and said it to me. A mimic at best.
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Emotional steps in divorce (if this is what you are going through right now):
Shock:
You will feel panic, rage, and numbness or like you are going crazy. You will swing between despair that your marriage is over and hope that it will be restored. It will seem impossible to cope with these feelings
You will experience some common fears when thinking about your future alone. You will wonder how you are going to survive your divorce. Will you ever find love again, will the pain ever end or will you feel this way the rest of your life are all feelings you will experience during this stage.
Rollercoaster:
You can’t seem to settle your feelings and thoughts. You swing from being hopeful to feeling utter despair. During this stage, you will try to intellectualize what has happened. If you can only understand what is going on then the pain will go away and all will make sense again.
You will tell yourself stories to try to make sense of it and your imagination will run wild. You will wonder if there was more you could have done, or if there is anything wrong with you. Maybe your spouse never even loved you. You will wonder if your entire marriage was a lie.
There is a lot of mental re-hashing during this period. You will fill as if you can’t control your thinking and find yourself obsessed with the failure of your marriage. Depression is a danger at this stage and you may cry at the drop of a hat.
Bargaining:
You are still holding onto the hope that your marriage will be restored. There is a willingness to change anything about yourself or doing anything and that if you could just get it right, your spouse would return. The important thing to learn during this stage is that you can’t control the thoughts, desires or actions of another human being.
Letting Go:
During this stage you will finally realize that the marriage is over, that there is nothing you can do or say to change that. You will become more willing to forgive the faults of your ex spouse and take responsibility for your part in the breakdown of the marriage. You will begin to feel a sense of liberation and some hope for the future.
Acceptance
The obsessive thoughts have stopped, the need to heal your marriage is behind you and you begin to feel as if you can and will have a fulfilling life. Suddenly you are looking ahead and not behind you, you are making plans and following through with them.
You will open up to the idea of finding new interests. This is a period of growth where you will discover that you have strengths and talents and are able to go forward in spite of the fear you feel.
Your pain gives way to hope and you discover that there is life after divorce and the future is made brighter due to the pain you have suffered.
I like this last sentence.....a lot.
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In it- Thank you for this. I think I am somewhere between Letting Go and Acceptance. Very true, I have not been making plans and following through, all with the hopes that she would suddenly 'wake up'. But the more I think about it, even if she woke up, do I want a husband/wife relationship? She still has the same disorder, the inability to open up, the passive aggressive behaviour, the keeping things inside, the inability to be grateful, to apologize, to think on her own... these are things that were inherent to her, and I accepted.
To be honest, understanding MLC has prevented me from moving on more quickly. It is the curse of knowing.
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Personally?
Just because I may have a better understanding? Doesn't mean I'm making myself a doormat for this kind of behavior. I've been a scapegoat long enough.
I think it's important to know where WE might be to keep ourselves going. Them..not so much
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http://www.nhs.uk/Livewell/men1839/Pages/Menshealthweek.aspx
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http://singleparents.about.com/od/havingfu1/a/absolutely_free_kids_activities.htm
Some of this list is for Mom's; but I found a lot of suggestions for Dad's also.
Free things you can do to make GOOD memories with your children. What ever your current situation is.
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Do women cry more than men? Answered by Curiosity
Group
Curiosity
Crying is a normal physical reaction to a variety of emotions, and just about everybody cries at some point or another. But do women really cry more than men, as most people think?
Up until puberty, boys and girls cry in equal amounts. When adolescence hits, the rise in testosterone in boys causes the crying to lessen, while rising estrogen levels in girls might bring them to tears more often.
Researchers estimate that once they reach adulthood, women cry approximately four times as much as men -- about 64 times a year for women as opposed to 17 for men [source: TheAge.com].
But that doesn't mean it's because women are moody messes; it may be due to a protein named prolactin. Prolactin, which also controls breast milk production, is present when someone cries emotional tears. The protein gets the endocrine system flowing, making people more prone to crying. Women may possess as much as 60 percent more prolactin in their bodies at any given time compared to men [source: Women's Health].
Another reason for men's stoic nature -- or at least their tendency to shed fewer tears -- may be that men sweat more than women. When men sweat, they may release some of the toxins that are found in emotional tears, lessening their need to cry.
Men also have smaller tear glands than women, so when they do cry, they cry fewer tears than women do. And while men tend to save their tears for major losses or disasters, women are more apt to also cry when they're tired, stressed out or frustrated.
Once middle age rolls around, things may change -- as hormones once again begin to shift, men may cry more and women less [source: Women's Health].
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I am not particularly stoic, as a matter of fact, I think I am more emotionally open than most men, but crying 17 times a years seems excessive to me. I may have shed a tear a couple of times during this mess in the past three years and am not ashamed to admit it.
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I did more than weep lol
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I too would say 17 times a year is wildly excessive, but not this year. At some point I felt ashamed of my tears but then I read in psalms of king David referring to his bed as a bed of tears.
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I found it interesting what they mentioned about the sweating and releasing toxins.
I know that's true..but the hormones that are involved in the tears I would think would make it a better release due to what your body goes through.
They say there's little difference (only emotionally) between laughing and crying. Physically it's almost the same thing if you are really weeping or really laughing.
I'm grateful for you guys who admit that you do, did, or don't cry.
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http://chris.pirillo.com/50-divorce-tips-for-men/
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I like the recycling tip ..
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#47, YOU ARE NO LONGER RESPONSIBLE FOR PROTECTING HER was a difficult one for me... I've been protecting and 'taking care' of her for 23 years, doing anything different was just unnatural.
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In it- Thank you for this. I think I am somewhere between Letting Go and Acceptance. Very true, I have not been making plans and following through, all with the hopes that she would suddenly 'wake up'. But the more I think about it, even if she woke up, do I want a husband/wife relationship? She still has the same disorder, the inability to open up, the passive aggressive behaviour, the keeping things inside, the inability to be grateful, to apologize, to think on her own... these are things that were inherent to her, and I accepted.
To be honest, understanding MLC has prevented me from moving on more quickly. It is the curse of knowing.
Quite true TB, if we'd just seen it as our spouse screwing around we all would have been divorced as soon as it was possible and at this point counting our blessings when we met somebody more suitable.
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http://shrink4men.wordpress.com/2009/12/09/emotional-detachment-when-the-no-contact-rule-is-not-an-option/
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Just found this site due to a forum post..figuring I'd have a few laughs (which I did)
I also found this....
http://www.pick-up-artist-forum.com/the-centered-man-manifesto-defining-your-identity-vt134859.html
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A self-centered, ego-driven justification for acting the jerk. This man defines an empty soul.
I swear, In It, what underbelly of the internet are you trolling on these days!
:D ;D ;D ;D ;D
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Well I got it from one of the GUYS THREADS!! ;D ;D ;D ;D
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A truly rich man is one whose children run into his arms when his hands are empty. –Unknown
It is not what you do for your children, but what you have taught them to do for themselves, that will make them successful human beings. –Ann Landers
If you want your children to turn out well, spend twice as much time with them, and half as much money. –Abigail Van Buren
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If you want your children to turn out well, spend twice as much time with them, and half as much money. –Abigail Van Buren
At this point in time, I think my W is spending half as much time with them (the children) and twice as much money. Par for the course for a MLCer!
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The money is guilt IMHO
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http://www.equalityinmarriage.org/wd6.html
Might help those who are going to court
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know what they call someone who goes through divorce with being in jail , a psychotic episode, becoming an alcoholic or filing bankruptcy?...a success
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Well Rover are we supposed to do all of that at the same time? Or pick just one? ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D
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I'm pretty sure another thread was started with something like this title.
But I couldn't find it. If someone else can work their magic maybe that can be merged with this.
Found this online:
My advice after a divorce following 16 years of marriage, by Gerald Rogers.
Obviously, I’m not a relationship expert. But there’s something about my divorce being finalized this week that gives me perspective of things I wish I would have done different… After losing a woman that I loved, and a marriage of almost 16 years, here’s the advice I wish I would have had
1. Never stop courting. Never stop dating. NEVER EVER take that woman for granted. When you asked her to marry you, you promised to be that man that would OWN HER HEART and to fiercely protect it. This is the most important and sacred treasure you will ever be entrusted with. SHE CHOSE YOU. Never forget that, and NEVER GET LAZY in your love.
2. Protect your own heart. Just as you committed to being the protector of her heart, you must guard your own with the same vigilance. Love yourself fully, love the world openly, but there is a special place in your heart where no one must enter except for your wife. Keep that space always ready to receive her and invite her in, and refuse to let anyone or anything else enter there.
3. Fall in love over and over again. You will constantly change. You’re not the same people you were when you got married, and in five years you will not be the same person you are today. Change will come, and in that you have to re-choose each other everyday. SHE DOESN’T HAVE TO STAY WITH YOU, and if you don’t take care of her heart, she may give that heart to someone else or seal you out completely, and you may never be able to get it back. Always fight to win her love just as you did when you were courting her.
4. Always see the best in her. Focus only on what you love. What you focus on will expand. If you focus on what bugs you, all you will see is reasons to be bugged. If you focus on what you love, you can’t help but be consumed by love. Focus to the point where you can no longer see anything but love, and you know without a doubt that you are the luckiest man on earth to be have this woman as your wife.
5. It’s not your job to change or fix her… your job is to love her as she is with no expectation of her ever changing. And if she changes, love what she becomes, whether it’s what you wanted or not.
6. Take full accountability for your own emotions: It’s not your wife’s job to make you happy, and she CAN’T make you sad. You are responsible for finding your own happiness, and through that your joy will spill over into your relationship and your love.
7. Never blame your wife if you get frustrated or angry at her, it is only because it is triggering something inside of YOU. They are YOUR emotions, and your responsibility. When you feel those feelings take time to get present and to look within and understand what it is inside of YOU that is asking to be healed. You were attracted to this woman because she was the person best suited to trigger all of your childhood wounds in the most painful way so that you could heal them… when you heal yourself, you will no longer be triggered by her, and you will wonder why you ever were.
8. Allow your woman to just be. When she’s sad or upset, it’s not your job to fix it, it’s your job to HOLD HER and let her know it’s ok. Let her know that you hear her, and that she’s important and that you are that pillar on which she can always lean. The feminine spirit is about change and emotion and like a storm her emotions will roll in and out, and as you remain strong and unjudging she will trust you and open her soul to you… DON’T RUN-AWAY WHEN SHE’S UPSET. Stand present and strong and let her know you aren’t going anywhere. Listen to what she is really saying behind the words and emotion.
9. Be silly… don’t take yourself so damn seriously. Laugh. And make her laugh. Laughter makes everything else easier.
10. Fill her soul everyday… learn her love languages and the specific ways that she feels important and validated and CHERISHED. Ask her to create a list of 10 THINGS that make her feel loved and memorize those things and make it a priority everyday to make her feel like a queen.
11. Be present. Give her not only your time, but your focus, your attention and your soul. Do whatever it takes to clear your head so that when you are with her you are fully WITH HER. Treat her as you would your most valuable client. She is.
❝ Read full details here : www.socialmeems.com/2014/06/03/beautiful-advice-from-a-divorced-man-after-16-years-of-marriage/
12. Be willing to take her sexually, to carry her away in the power of your masculine presence, to consume her and devour her with your strength, and to penetrate her to the deepest levels of her soul. Let her melt into her feminine softness as she knows she can trust you fully.
13. Don’t be an idiot…. And don’t be afraid of being one either. You will make mistakes and so will she. Try not to make too big of mistakes, and learn from the ones you do make. You’re not supposed to be perfect, just try to not be too stupid.
14. Give her space… The woman is so good at giving and giving, and sometimes she will need to be reminded to take time to nurture herself. Sometimes she will need to fly from your branches to go and find what feeds her soul, and if you give her that space she will come back with new songs to sing…. (okay, getting a little too poetic here, but you get the point. Tell her to take time for herself, ESPECIALLY after you have kids. She needs that space to renew and get re-centered, and to find herself after she gets lost in serving you, the kids and the world.)
15. Be vulnerable… you don’t have to have it all together. Be willing to share your fears and feelings, and quick to acknowledge your mistakes.
16. Be fully transparent. If you want to have trust you must be willing to share EVERYTHING… Especially those things you don’t want to share. It takes courage to fully love, to fully open your heart and let her in when you don’t know i she will like what she finds… Part of that courage is allowing her to love you completely, your darkness as well as your light. DROP THE MASK… If you feel like you need to wear a mask around her, and show up perfect all the time, you will never experience the full dimension of what love can be.
17. Never stop growing together… The stagnant pond breeds malaria, the flowing stream is always fresh and cool. Atrophy is the natural process when you stop working a muscle, just as it is if you stop working on your relationship. Find common goals, dreams and visions to work towards.
18. Don’t worry about money. Money is a game, find ways to work together as a team to win it. It never helps when teammates fight. Figure out ways to leverage both persons strength to win.
19. Forgive immediately and focus on the future rather than carrying weight from the past. Don’t let your history hold you hostage. Holding onto past mistakes that either you or she makes, is like a heavy anchor to your marriage and will hold you back. FORGIVENESS IS FREEDOM. Cut the anchor loose and always choose love.
20. Always choose love. ALWAYS CHOOSE LOVE. In the end, this is the only advice you need. If this is the guiding principle through which all your choices is governed, there is nothing that will threaten the happiness of your marriage. Love will always endure.
In the end marriage isn’t about happily ever after. It’s about work. And a commitment to grow together and a willingness to continually invest in creating something that can endure eternity. Through that work, the happiness will come. Marriage is life, and it will bring ups and downs. Embracing all of the cycles and learning to learn from and love each experience will bring the strength and perspective to keep building, one brick at a time.
These are lessons I learned the hard way. These are lessons I learned too late. But these are lessons I am learning and committed in carrying forward. Truth is, I loved being married, and in time, I will get married again, and when I do, I will build it with a foundation that will endure any storm and any amount of time.
If you are reading this and find wisdom in my pain, share it those those young husbands whose hearts are still full of hope, and with those couples you may know who may have forgotten how to love. One of those men may be like I was, and in these hard earned lessons perhaps something will awaken in him and he will learn to be the man his lady has been waiting for.
MEN- THIS IS YOUR CHARGE: Commit to being an EPIC LOVER. There is no greater challenge, and no greater prize. Your woman deserves that from. Be the type of husband your wife can’t help but brag about.
I didn't read anything about CONTROL here. Controlling behavior will kill a relationship.
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in it, than you for posting this. I read this earlier and this should be something that ever couple getting married should have to read. And the same goes for the wife or woman as well. This is truly what a marriage is about. I appreciate your passing this one. It is great to read something like this and know there is a blueprint that not all people know. Continued success in your new business!
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Thank you Balimor.
EXACTLY this works BOTH WAYS!! :)
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Thanks, In It. I appreciate you posting things for men every once in a while!
I'll give you my rant, and understand that it's not directed at you.
In my Opinion, these are very logical things to do... it will help people stay together, and love each other... UNLESS your spouse has an avoidant or other personality disorder..... and UNLESS they are having a MID LIFE CRISIS.
This man seems to take responsibility for his divorce and is regretting things he never did. It could very well be that he was the loser who took his wife for granted and perhaps even abused and controlled her, but while I was NOT PERFECT, and I certainly could have taken some of this advice and worked on it.... but I TAKE NO RESPONSIBILITY for my divorce. It was all my xW's desire. My xW NEVER told me what was wrong, what I can do to change, what she wanted in life, and from me. I am not a mind reader, and I never want to be. ALL she did was tell me that she didn't love me anymore. We didn't have an argument, we didn't have a heart to heart talk, she didn't get mad.... All she wanted to do was withdraw from me, and for me to move out of my own home. There are many men who fall out of love with their wives too, and a wife has the same responsibilty and obligation as the husband.
1. Never stop courting, Never stop dating.... YES, we stopped dating after we had kids. I ALWAYS wanted to date, I kept asking her if we should hire a sitter so that we can go out along. She ALWAYS said NO> ALWAYS.... I stopped trying.
2. I protected my heart, I was fiercely loyal and I reserved a spot only for her.... She never opened up to me.... She was incapable. I never strayed, and never opened my heart to any one else. SHE decided to open it to someone else.
3. ? HUH? I never fell out of love with my xW. Do I always feel romantic? NO, but never once did I think about leaving. SHE should look to fall in love with me everyday. She should have showed me appreciation, affection and love... as opposed to withdrawing and withholding affection.
4. Yes, she should look at the best in me. I bust my ass working to provide for the family, and all she could think about is my negatives... no one is perfect. She certainly wasnt, but I didn't focus on it, she should always see the best in ME.
5. She changed, she admitted it.... to be a selfish, idiotic b!tc#, LOVE what she has become? no thanks.
6. Agree that I am responsible for my own happiness, but she destroyed the family, and disadvantaged the kids. Well.... someone is responsible for that.... and it sure ain't me. I'm not the one who pursued the divorce with vigor.
7. What? If she leaves and destroys the family, I should look at my own FOO? because I should never be frustrated and angry with her? Don't blame her even though she takes half my salary and destroyed all that I worked for?
8. I WAS ALWAYS there.... She agreed that I was a great family man, and am always there.... I am there too much
9. I was always joking and laughing.... Once my son heard a woman laugh, and we looked at each other and asked if that was mommy... He looked at me and said no.... mommy never laughs.
10. I asked what would make her happy.... I said whatever will make you happy, that's what I want.... She never said a word.
11. I was always there, always wanted to talk.... She withdrew... never opened up emotionally
12. I was passionate about sex.... towards the end, she was like a dead fish.... let's get it over with...
13. I made plenty of mistakes, and sometimes I am stupid.... but I've never committed a divorcable offense.
14. She never took time for herself.... Well... she has all the time with herself now... She still has the kids most of the time, so I don't see how divorcing me helps
15. I'm always willing to open my heart, she is not
16. This completely applies to her, not to me.
17. Yes, fully agree, I keep telling her what my dreams are.... She never had any... really, not joking
18. I was concerned about money... she was too. But then came a point after BD that she claims that's all i cared about.... Well... after you tell me there is no use in talking about love.... what else is there to talk about... if you want divorce, then yes, we are talking about money
19. I need to work on Forgiveness
20. Yes, there will always be love
An LBSer can possess all these qualities and do all these things, it would never prevent an MLCer from leaving... This all sickens them.
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I know and I'm encouraging the RANTS! GOOD ONE HOBO1!
With whomever we were with it wouldn't have mattered one Gosh Darn bit. We weren't some one they could relate to.
We could have been what they considered perfect? Doesn't matter.
That doesn't mean we aren't human beings. And deserve to be treated better.
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Thanks for posting this In It.
I have to agree with hobo1 here though. Sure, all of this is important and probably needs improved upon in a normal relationship. I probably should have read this list once a week, but I think in the end, it wouldn't have mattered. This doesn't seem to work for MLCers. Sure there are times I should have been more romantic, focused more on her emotional needs, etc. But the same goes for her. I often felt like my needs weren't important and I sacrificed everything for her to have a good life. There were many times I didn't feel "madly in love" with my W, but I would never stray or leave her.
All of this stuff could be worked on during a marriage when both are willing and communicate. Kids, work, etc. throw a major wrench into being able to court/date like you first met. My W bottles everything up and doesn't bring up things until the BD. Then it is "too little too late" in her mind. Then anything the LBS tries to do to "fix" things, just makes the MCLer resent them even more.
The funny part is, when my W came begging for me back after first time she went wayward, all of this stuff didn't seem to matter so much, or she realized that I was doing all of these things - maybe not as well or consistently as I should have, but it is what it is. And yes, I've been beating myself up again thinking "if I only did more of this, or that", maybe things wouldn't have gotten to this point a second time. But I'm seeing the same exact patterns in her as last time. She just wants to "go and go" (her words) and doesn't want to be home, etc. She's back to the "it's all about her" phase. If she didn't seem to ignore our son as well, maybe I would think it was about me, but I've seen this before.
I see all kinds of marriages where things are far from perfect, yet they stay together, work on things and don't stray. It is frustrating really. I've seen some big mistakes done by people I know and their W's forgive them and they work on things. Yet, I do some petty thing I didn't even realize I did wrong, and all of the sudden I get accused that I never loved her and it's all my fault.
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They have to blame SOMEBODY! They will not look at their own FOO issues or whatever. I belive it's inherit in long term relationshps.
All of this stuff could be worked on during a marriage when both are willing and communicate
IMHO That's the key to the whole mess right there.
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I see all kinds of marriages where things are far from perfect, yet they stay together, work on things and don't stray. It is frustrating really. I've seen some big mistakes done by people I know and their W's forgive them and they work on things. Yet, I do some petty thing I didn't even realize I did wrong, and all of the sudden I get accused that I never loved her and it's all my fault.
Twice burnt - I know exactly what you mean.... I know of drug addicted, criminal, cheating and abusive husbands.... treat their wives like dirt.... I mean completely irresponsible unloving SOBs.... Their wives are loyal and adore them... They are willing to die for them.
Makes me think I must be doing something wrong.
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They have to blame SOMEBODY! They will not look at their own FOO issues or whatever. I belive it's inherit in long term relationshps.
All of this stuff could be worked on during a marriage when both are willing and communicate
IMHO That's the key to the whole mess right there.
Yes, I agree completely. My W even mentioned she cried to her friends, sister, and mom before (about something I did/didn't do or was/wasn't doing), and they gave her advice, but it "didn't work". Umm...why not tell me or cry to me about it?! I can't read her mind, I certainly can't read her friends, etc. minds. Force me to go to marriage counseling....SOMETHING.
But then again, it isn't about me. I think she was crying to them about something inside herself, but she just didn't/won't realize it.
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Hobo:No you are not doing something wrong..I don't think.
You may be too giving..
Women like that when they stay with jerks like those guys are codependent and you would not want them..needy..abandonment issues usually.
Will tolerate anything not to be on their own and alone.
We need to be is WHOLE people. We are healing keep posting.
TB
They won't cry to us for thier fear of vulnerability probably and you are right.
No one is a mind reader.
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Found this online:
My advice after a divorce following 16 years of marriage, by Gerald Rogers.
The article appears to be written by a LBS who has regrets for taking his W for granted. I don't think the deeply empathetic LBS, male or female, who find a home at forum like this one, are the personality type to have taken their loved one or their marriage for granted.
20. Always choose love. ALWAYS CHOOSE LOVE.
The people who come here did/do choose love. That's why the detaching is so very hard.
In it, is this quote in bold, "I didn't read anything about CONTROL here. Controlling behavior will kill a relationship." your words or Gerald Rogers' words?
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Mine not his.
I always took controlling for "caring" and that ain't it. I almost got cared to death if that's the case.
And we may feel we didn't take them for granted? But they may have felt differently.
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And Gerald Rogers the Elite Life Breakthrough Mentor also writes, "I will get married again, and when I do, I will build it with a foundation that will endure any storm and any amount of time."
Let's just hope he doesn't marry someone with a concealed or latent personality disorder, otherwise, like many of us here, he could be in for a shock.
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I Know I Know!!! LMAO!! Like what age group are you gonna pick? Uhmmm lets see...
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http://www.huffingtonpost.com/randi-gunther/marriage-advice_b_5666990.html?utm_hp_ref=divorce&ir=Divorce
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I thought it was a good article but the conclusion kind of left me hanging.
Anyone else think differently?
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After reading the first few sentences one word came to mind - balance.
A balance is required to maintain a healthy relationship. I've had to be a man for so long I have little comprehension to be a woman anymore. :o
The marriage I was interested in was a partnership.
I was the traditional wife. Made sure the bills were paid, took care of the children, did all the housework, took the garbage out mowed the lawn,planned family vacations, and worked part time through the years.And when he did work I did everything including getting his clothes ready for him so he could sleep 15 minutes extra. Cleaned off the car when it snowed and started it so it would be warm for him. Did it have any value?..nope.
I never looked at it as having control I looked at it as being responsible and thoughtful.
Even if I mentioned he might do bill paying? He wouldn't. I suggested maybe he'd like to pay the bills? Oh no.. not interested. Practically ran out of the room with that one.
I know one thing that didn't help whatsoever is he and I spent WAY too much time together due to him either being unemployed or laid off. I'm very happy I won't be spending my retirement years with him.
Think about what the marriage partner in your life did and you may see how much the relationship was out of balance. No marriage is perfect but some work better than others. For me it comes down to an equal respect for what each other does and the kind of person they are. And communication is important! Nobody is a mind reader.
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I'm very happy I won't be spending my retirement years with him.
So I guess the point of this article is, will you be spending it with anyone?
I know we are a standing website but I do believe that man and women are meant to be in relationships and not spend the rest of their lives alone.
You cant go back - so are we all going to move forward?
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I don't know..and right now I couldn't care less...hey I'm totally prepared to spend the rest of my life alone if need be.
I can't seem to attract the right person for me. I've got three marriages behind me..I'm pretty sure I won't get married again..it's entirely too much work to maintain a man.
If you keep you emotions tied up in fantasy land it makes it pretty hard to move forward.
Having relationships in your own head isn't healthy.
And I think you are right - we aren't meant to be alone.
But if you meet someone new if either person doesn't educate each other as to what works for them to have a healthy relationship the relationship is doomed.
I'm not picking on men but they seem to have problems expressing themselves and allowing themselves to be vulnerable where when women do this? Men use it against them. Some emotional maturity has to happen as far as I'm concerned.
This isn't a competition. Or based on CONTROL. I find if someone allows me free to do what I want to do it makes me feel closer to them. Of course women ..men claim.... are complex.
They want to blame hormones and a million other things as to why the way we are as if something always has to be wrong with us.
WHY does something have to be wrong with us? Is it because we don't think or feel the way you might? Why can't we just appreciate the differences and have it lead to a compromise?
The strongest men I know EMPOWER women they don't try to put them down all the time.
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Very interesting article. But I think what it comes down to is still selfishness. It appears the women were looking for more excitement, something different than they had. Like if you have straight hair then you wish it was curly. Unfortunately this isn't hair we're talking about, but a committed relationship. That's a lot of pain to put everyone through because you want a thrill ride.
I know we are a standing website but I do believe that man and women are meant to be in relationships and not spend the rest of their lives alone.
I believe this also. As far as standing, I think this gives us the opportunity to heal and evaluate what we want from our future. For me, it's to have a meaningful relationship. Would I like that to be with h? Yes, but during this time I am also evaluating if that avenue is even one I would want to go down and if so how much time am I realistically going to put into it. But love and sharing your life with a partner, for me, is a wonderful thing and I do not want to live my life without that.
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Sounds just like MLC to me.... ;D The 'grass is greener' effect til it turns brown. These 'other people' can/are only giving 1 quality..Fantasy. Not sure if there is all that 'rocket science' he puts into his article really going on other than Fantasy....Of course that is just my opinion! :)....Maybe the 'author' otta pick up a book on MLC! lol
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this was my comment on article
good read...echoes something I have toyed with for several years now...feminists and women got what they said they wanted..society and men changed in many ways..many of them good...but women changed too..and in some ways..not so good...its a complicated witch's brew driven not just by relationships but by family law,government social programs , popular culture and the media...the pendulum swung too far..but the damage is too great and the suddenly insightful women you talk about are rare..and they get a steady diet of you go girl..and gender politics drive social programs that in reality sabotage the concept of not just marriage but long term relationships in general...their next step may be to acknowledge that men are no longer needed..with egg freezing ,artificial insemination , andif he doesn't make enough to be a cash machine when you are done with him,you can always marry the welfare state..
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I'd like to agree with you rover? But men still are needed.
Women just don't want to have someone to compete with or control them or have to take care of them - at least I don't.
I was never a dyed in the wool feminist but I can see a couple of instances where women have gotten the short end of the stick with glass ceilings etc.
As far as babies go? I don't think the "old fashioned way" is going out of style soon.
I don't think I'm asking for a lot maybe I am..I haven't found it yet! ;D ;D ;D ;D I just want an honest direct relationship.
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So I guess the point of this article is, will you be spending it with anyone?....everyone is different..many can't wait to 'find' someone..as for me I have opted out..I have 3 kids to raise and I really have no time or inclination for anything more
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I have 3 kids to raise and I really have no time or inclination for anything more
This too shall pass.
TIME
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For me? It's all about where you are at in life. I ain't dead yet and if this last experience didn't kill me I guess I'll be alright. Many people have had worse.
Whether I get involved with another man again is anybody's guess.
I'm convinced at their base a relationship is all about CONTROL.