Midlife Crisis: Support for Left Behind Spouses
Archives => Archived Topics => Topic started by: Albatross on October 28, 2013, 01:59:03 PM
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In vino veritas is a Latin phrase that translates “in wine [there is the] truth". The expression, together with its counterpart in Greek, “Ἐν οἴνῳ ἀλήθεια” (En oinōi alētheia), is found in Erasmus' Adagia, I.vii.17.[1] Pliny the Elder's Naturalis historia contains an early allusion to the phrase.[2] The Greek expression is traced back to a poem by Alcaeus.[3]
Herodotus asserts, and it is likely enough, that if the Persians took a decision while drunk, they made a rule to reconsider it when sober. Few authors between Herodotus and Lévi-Strauss would have dared to add, as Herodotus does, that if the Persians took a decision while sober, they made a rule to reconsider it when they were drunk (Histories, book 1, section 133).[4]
The Roman historian Tacitus described how the Germanic peoples always drank while holding councils, as they believed nobody could lie effectively when drunk.[5]
The phrase is often continued as, "In vino veritas, in aqua sanitas", i.e., "In wine there is truth, in water there is health."
Similar phrases exist across cultures and languages.
"Our drunken behavior. One effect of alcohol is its release of the shadow; that is why many intoxicated people behave in a manner which is contrary to the behavior which they exhibit when sober."
How Your MLCer behave before MLC when he/she become drunk ? That can explain Your current MLCer behavior. What You say ?
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Hiya, em.... Can't concur on this one. My mlcer was a very happy, funny drunk who I never saw bad mouth anyone. He was just playful, way more so than sober.
Perhaps not just the shadow appears but the good points too Are released??
I would say this is sometimes me depending on which drink I have. I become a bit of a shadow boxer when I drink cider, it's makes me very angry. I don't drink it !!!
SD
X
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How very interesting Albatross. My H self medicates with booze, a lot. He is always embarrassing but nothing that could be identified as shadow. I dont think his shadow side gets much air time generally.
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Hiya, em.... Can't concur on this one. My mlcer was a very happy, funny drunk who I never saw bad mouth anyone. He was just playful, way more so than sober.
So ? He is now playful, way more then sober ? Get it ? ;) So far I read Your thread, he is no monster, right ?
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"Our drunken behavior. One effect of alcohol is its release of the shadow; that is why many intoxicated people behave in a manner which is contrary to the behavior which they exhibit when sober."
How Your MLCer behave before MLC when he/she become drunk ? That can explain Your current MLCer behavior. What You say ?
Very interesting. I was told this early on, that the way he was when he was drunk was his true self. I have never seen him drunk, he stopped drinking right before we met; however, his family as well as himself have told me that he was a complete **shole. H also said to his family at one point "I would start drinking again but Searching would leave me and I don't want that to ever happen" :o Another thing that I have been thinking about recently relates to this; during my H's teenage years he drank and did drugs all of the time. I was wondering if this is why we are here now; he missed out on a developmental stage because of the alcohol and drugs. Was he trying to escape even when he was a teen?
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My wife was never drunk ! I try to make her drunk, but she always refuse. To bad. I am missing now her shadow information. Anyway, I am addict by genes probably. So, I never hold in house alcohol, otherwise I will become alcoholic easily. Also never try to use drugs even in curious teen age. Most likely my W is so rigid that she can't allow self being ever drunk ? Or she is aware of own big shadow and afraid to be drunk and show alter ego - dark side ?
I was never drunk that I do not know what I am doing. But I was drunk well several times, can number it on digits of my one hand. As drunk I was playful, cheerful, full of joy also emotional - in manner that I love whole world ;) . Shadow can contain also gold. ;) How I understand that ? My wife before MLC was extroverted, but not spontaneous. She was always hyper vigilant. To much distance between rest of ego and persona. Controlling own behavior. What that means ? That I will be more playful, joyful if she was not so rigid, controlled, calculated, more spontaneous.
Also people can't lie when they are drunk or it is hard for them to lie. They can be easily caught in lie as drunk, maybe is that reason to why people as drunk do not lie.
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Another thing that I have been thinking about recently relates to this; during my H's teenage years he drank and did drugs all of the time. I was wondering if this is why we are here now; he missed out on a developmental stage because of the alcohol and drugs. Was he trying to escape even when he was a teen?
Probably he has issues in teenage years and try to escape and avoid them using alcohol and drugs. That issues come from earlier development phase - childhood. To bad that he miss opportunity solve them in puberty... So, he even now refuse to solve them... as result is MLC. Now he must to.
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I think there's some validity to this. More than once, I've spilled some things I meant to keep secret when I got tipsy. But there's always the flip side of the coin.
Picture a 1960s stereotype middle-age business man:
tie loosened, buttons on his shirt stretched tight across his belly, reeling around on a bar stool, slurring his words as he tells some bimbo...."My wife doesn't understand me".... ;D ;D ;D
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My husband and his dad really cannot socialize without drinking. They are "more themselves" when they drink. My husband is really loving to me when he drinks, and he says nice things. He says nice things when he's sober too but moreso when he's drinking, he's more cuddly too. I need to read up on serotonin again. I have some supplements for him but I have been so bad at remembering to give him anything these days.
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My MLCer was never drunk before MLC. In 20 years I have never seen him drunk. So being drunk is a "new" (now more than 7 years old behaviour) for my MLCer.
If I remember currently the Persians drunk whole wine (wine that was not mixed with water) and the Greeks wine mixed with water. The Persians would got very, very drunk, like Alexander and his man found out.
in Vino Veritas, here in Portugal, is taken in the same sense that the old Germanic people, when drunk one cannot lie.
But, at the same time, around here it is also considered that what is said while drunk does not count because, most likely, it was not true.
Weird, I know.
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Well...he was so big that when he finally DID get drunk I was so smashed I wouldn't know the difference.
For myself? I find different alcohols effect me differently. As well as my mood when I start drinking.
I can drink beer or vodka and be fine... laugh and have a really good time.
I did crawl into a bottle of Absolute once and sat a cried for most of the evening maybe 7 years ago.
If I really wanted to get hammered it was shots of Jack Daniels or Southern Comfort Manhattans.
But if I drink too much wine? I get really mean.
But this was about 20 years ago...
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To say that a person is their true self when they are drunk is to say that MLCers are their true selves. Nothing could be further from the truth in both cases. Albatross is correct....the shadow is released in both cases. But do not confuse that with the true self. When the shadow is released and takes over, separation of self happens...the beginning of MLC. It is reintegration that is desired....the end of the crisis....when a person's full self is in balance. If all inhibitions were lifted all the time, as in when you are drunk, you would be like a child all the time. People need to transition into mature adults. That is what this MLC is all about....people not being able to handle transitioning into the last part of their mature being and needing to regress to childhood. It is a good thing to integrate your playfulness, but not at the expense of maturity and morality. People do stupid, crazy things when they are drunk and usually make fools out of themselves. Drinking is a addiction....an escape from reality and true self....so is MLC.
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I also read somewhere that whatever age you first got drunk at can stunt emotional growth if the drinking continues...
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My husband has always been a fun drunk. Very dry sense of humor that he usually only shares with those he is comfortable around would come out to everyone. Now I know he drinks lots in his free time from us. But around me, he will only have one drink if not at all. It is weird. I think he is afraid of losing control.
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My ex has always liked to drink (mostly beer). His drinking has always been an issue in our marriage but it was especially bad before BD. He drinks constantly now and has really gotten into brewing his own beer. He has quite an elaborate brewery set up. He was usually disrespectful, sneaky, and mean when he drank. I 'm afraid his excessive drinking will keep him in the tunnel and unable to end his crisis. I'd be interested in hearing any thoughts on this subject. iHh
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IHh
I always thought peoples drinking was to escape emotional pain.
I was pretty much raised in a barroom during my teen years. I mean there is the socializing aspect ..but I'm still of the opinion if someone USES alcohol they are trying to escape the pain of something that's happened to them.
So unless it's some special occasion, holiday, or event I look at drinking as the way most people escape. Deep down they are very sad and somewhat lost.
I don't know if this helps...
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I totally agree, in it!
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To say that a person is their true self when they are drunk is to say that MLCers are their true selves. Nothing could be further from the truth in both cases. Albatross is correct....the shadow is released in both cases. But do not confuse that with the true self. When the shadow is released and takes over, separation of self happens...the beginning of MLC. It is reintegration that is desired....the end of the crisis....when a person's full self is in balance. If all inhibitions were lifted all the time, as in when you are drunk, you would be like a child all the time. People need to transition into mature adults. That is what this MLC is all about....people not being able to handle transitioning into the last part of their mature being and needing to regress to childhood. It is a good thing to integrate your playfulness, but not at the expense of maturity and morality. People do stupid, crazy things when they are drunk and usually make fools out of themselves. Drinking is a addiction....an escape from reality and true self....so is MLC.
Well said ;D
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Guess what ? This is amazing ! My wife never drink alcohol before MLC as you can see in this tread. She drink some strong drink and said that she see some kind blur. Later we play cards and we usually drink beer. So, she doing it since she is MLC. And she become drunk a bit... :)
She become OPPOSITE what she is now ! Means she become OLD SELF ! And it is TRUE !
OMG. This is amazing.
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Guess what ? This is amazing ! My wife never drink alcohol before MLC as you can see in this tread. She drink some strong drink and said that she see some kind blur. Later we play cards and we usually drink beer. So, she doing it since she is MLC. And she become drunk a bit... :)
She become OPPOSITE what she is now ! Means she become OLD SELF ! And it is TRUE !
OMG. This is amazing.
Very interesting ::) ::)
The drinking makes it harder for them to keep the mask on! Please keep us updated on this.
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It's always been said the truth comes out when drunk or angry. Being drunk for me usually has me at a total disadvantage. Regarding any serious discussion anyway.
He tried that once it didn't work. I sat there laughing saying "Oh no..I'm not talking about this now"
He knew I'd had enough to drink then he wants to talk?..seriously? He was just waiting to use whatever I was going to say against me or turn my words around to whatever he thought they meant.
I think I've been drunk maybe three times since this has happened 8 months ago. Before that? I can't even remember when the last time I got drunk was.
That is fascinating Albatross-she must have lost some of her inhibitions. Maybe?
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So, I am interested for correlation Your MLCer type vanisher, boomerang, on and off or clinging boomerang and how act Your spouses when they was drunk before MLC ?
Also I am interested in correlation Your MLCer drunk before MLC was aggressive and they are mostly monsters in MLC ?
And finally Your spose drunk before MLC and they acting out or wallow ? And what kind they are in MLC wallowers or high energy replayers - acting out ?
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Actually there may be some truth to this
Whenever my H would take two drinks he would be ;D
Whenever he got to the third drink he would be >:(
Honestly prior to BD I consistently saw monster after the third drink...once he took the 2nd drink and was all happy I would usually go hide :o because I knew he was going to take the third drink and get monstery.
After BD who he most resembles is himself after the 3rd drink. So you may have something about alcohol showing the true self.
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Fascinating thoughts!
H has a great tolerance for alcohol although I watched his consumption increase in what I now know are the early stages of MLC (pre-BD). But he usually retained good control except in bed where he became a bit more aggressive.
I will. However, never forget the day he got absolutely hammered while we were in Jamaica and started crying about his impotence. I understand and empathize as much as a woman can with that issue, but even at the time I thought his behavior was a bit odd for him. It was wallowing. And more would come. It's pretty much what he does all the time, now.
Kinda wish I could see him drunk! :)
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Fascinating thoughts!
H has a great tolerance for alcohol although I watched his consumption increase in what I now know are the early stages of MLC (pre-BD). But he usually retained good control except in bed where he became a bit more aggressive.
I will. However, never forget the day he got absolutely hammered while we were in Jamaica and started crying about his impotence. I understand and empathize as much as a woman can with that issue, but even at the time I thought his behavior was a bit odd for him. It was wallowing. And more would come. It's pretty much what he does all the time, now.
Kinda wish I could see him drunk! :)
Why don't You call him out and make him drunk ? :D Manage to drink other liqueur then him and beforehand negotiate with bar tender to pull You nonalcoholic drinks ? ;)
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I have wondered about this for a long time.
My H does not currently drink. So I have never seen him drunk, however, everyone confirms including H that he is a complete a**hole when he drinks. H stopped drinking after his 3rd DUI, we meet shortly after he stopped drinking. H made a comment to his family once that he wouldn't drink again because I would probably leave him if he did :o I do know that H was very aggressive when drunk - he would pick fights with anyone.
Recently, H's dad told me that if H did start drinking again that I needed to leave ASAP; his dad said that H would probably hurt me. I told his dad that I had heard the stories of his drinking days and had already made the decision that if he did start drinking I would leave.
I do think that H has been self-medicating since he was a teenager; he had tried to escape by drinking and using drugs. Now he has moved on to other things to distract himself :o
My H is a big time clinging boomerang. I see 'charming' monster from him majority of the time; I have seen 'angry' monster a few times but I think that H knows that 'angry' monster will make me leave so he stays in 'charming' monster. I don't know if my H is a wallower or high-energy; he has OW but he cycles in his energy level. I think he sees her every other week or so.
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As I write here my W drink since she is in MLC and when she is under influence of alcohol, she become opposite - means normal self before crisis !
Maybe we should make from our MLCers all time alcoholics then they will act normal. :D
Better for us and better for them to die because liver failure then madness ? :D
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This is fascinating.
Although I agree with In It to some degree that people drink to escape emotional pain, it's not the only reason. In my case I have used alcohol to loosen my inhibitions, especially when younger, as being quite introverted I found social situations difficult. I preferred the less shy, quiet me that appeared when I had a drink, not drunk, just a bit tipsy. I felt that this was the 'me' I wished I could be all the time - still the same person but out of my shell a little more. As I've gotten older I haven't found it as necessary but it took me a long time to get there.
I would say my H is similar to that of Long Journey. He's fun and jovial after a couple of drinks ;D, then there's a line he crosses and Mr mean, obnoxious and cold comes out. This is the monster I had at BD, and now that I look back I can see that he had been in replay long before BD and monster had come out at other times.
He has had issues with drinking since a teenager and also did drugs as a teenager. He moved away in his teenage years for about a year and apparently hung around in the drug scene. He said he woke up one day and decided 'that's enough' and walked away from it. That must have taken some kind of inner strength and I hope one day he finds that again.
He's had counselling for drinking issues and did improve for a while after that. Nearing BD he was drinking very heavily and that's how he met OW. She is his drinking buddy. He has also been spotted in bars in the area we live drinking alone, (wallowing), and there was an occasion where someone I know almost knocked him down in the middle of the street because he was so inebriated.
Yes, I think my H's shadow comes out when he drinks too much which is most of the time these days :D.
Another interesting thing is that sometimes when he's come to the house since BD I have offered him a beer. He will accept one beer, but once I offered him a bourbon which is a favourite of his and he wouldn't accept that. Any ideas why that might be? A friend said to me he's acting too controlled around me. He's always Mr nice these days. Maybe he's afraid of that shadow coming out around me.
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once I offered him a bourbon which is a favourite of his and he wouldn't accept that. Any ideas why that might be? A friend said to me he's acting too controlled around me. He's always Mr nice these days. Maybe he's afraid of that shadow coming out around me.
Maybe. Or maybe because his love of bourbon (great taste!) reminds him of home/you. I'm thinking that's why H left the 25-year-old Scotch when he moved out.
Albatross, great idea. I think I will suggest we do exactly that right after our court date later this month. ;)
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My H hid a huge drinking problem from me for who knows how long before BD.. I would constantly find empty bottles hidden in the house,, and right beffore BD, I finally got access to the garage (i never had a key. never needed one to go out there) and found nearly 100 empty bottles. Some beer but mostly Bourbon. He told me he would have to drink as soon as he came home because he didnt want to come home. Said he didnt want to be in the house (it needed work), i was depressed, so I was constantly laying on the couch and didnt do anything, and was moody. So he dreaded coming home. i know hes still drinking because i can see the charges on the bank statement to the liquor store.
When we finally spoke after months of nC, he told me he wasnt drinking anymore. BS. Said he would just have beer sometimes when he would hang out or go out with his bros.
H also started drinking at a young age. He also did drugs. Like at 13. Mom was a uber b!tc#, and he was rebelious teen.
Not sure what this means about his shadow and true personality? I dont remember him being out of it and totally drunk. he hid it well from me. I didnt even know. But he would be sleepy during movies at home, and would sleep during the day. (i was at work). He still blames me for him not wanting to come home. I threw a truth dart and told him he was suicidal and didnt want to come home because hes depressed. no comment.
thoughts?
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My H drinks probably every night. Either at home or out. So his tolerance is high. I haven't seen him out of control for a long time. When he would he would be sweet, and loving. Of course now, that may be totally different.
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Haha, you might have a point there Medusa about the bourbon reminding him of home/me. I think he's trying to pretend he's changed. He forgets I have friends that see him out at bars sometimes ::).