Midlife Crisis: Support for Left Behind Spouses
Archives => Archived Topics => Topic started by: Patience on October 06, 2010, 12:48:50 PM
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Link to previous thread "Questions about the affair/OM/OW II"
http://mlcforum.theherosspouse.com/index.php?topic=1454.0
Friends, I've been reading all of the threads and articles I can find on OW withdrawal. I would like to know a bit more about what it "looks like." The articles I've read online seem to indicate there will be anger, anxiety, and depression. The things here indicate some of the same things, but each MLCer is different and might express this in different ways.
Could you share this experience and what you saw? I'm wondering if there is some variation based on the energy level, etc. of the MLCer.
Thanks!
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Patience, great question!
I know with my h, I have seen this, but I too would like more info.
I am still not exactly sure if this woman was ow or truly a friend, so it seems even harder!
hugs,
L
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Patience...my H is a low level MLC'r...i have watched his withdrawal many times over the past 14 mths. The way he displayed it was , he had nothing behind his eyes...he would look at me...but he wasn't looking , if that makes sense. He would stare at the TV but I knew he wasn't watching it... he was thinking of being with her.
I would know after these displays he would make contact again... i could then tell/sense he was seeing her...i would confront...he would deny...i would push...he would confess... he would leave..usually for 1 night... he would beg to come home...i would cave and let him...mostly because i was scared of him staying with her...we would be good for 5/6 weeks...then same again.
Hope this helps.
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Hopefully, this will help; it was a description of OW Withdrawal someone asked for in a PM:
Your husband will not go into OW Withdrawal, until ALL contact has ceased with her, regardless if it is he who breaks it off, or she.
At first, he will feel some relief, especially if it's him who initiates the break up. But what he won't realize is that anytime you end a relationship, you must process it, learn from it, and heal from it.
When you make a connection to someone, that person takes a place in your head and in your heart. When the connection is broken; in essence, you are facing the 'death' of that relationship, and a grieving process is gone through.
He will still have feelings for her, and those will take time to work through; he will evidence deep confusion, depression, sadness; and it won't be unusual for him to talk all over the place, saying weird things at times. He can go as far as blaming you for his having to cut contact with her.
He will reject you again if you approach him; and he also will have a great deal of guilt over having 'abandoned' his OW, as well as guilt over his committing of adultery. His conscience will be tormenting him heavily. You will see him withdraw into himself for a time.
Understand, that IF he resumes contact with her, and breaks it off again, the whole process will begin again from the beginning; and TIME will be added, as it will take LONGER for him to process this through.
The only way to come through this completely, will be to NEVER contact her again...and this is up to him; you cannot help him with this, or the OW Withdrawal...these are things he must do on his own.
Given time, he will work through all of this, and after he finishes, he will turn back toward you.
The process is very similar in each case; although, some OW/OM Withdrawals are worse than others; it depends upon the depth of attachment to the OW/OM...times I don't have, as I don't know how long it takes to come through it.
Does this help?
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Thank you for your insight HB. It helps me understand that I'm probably not seeing OW withdrawal yet. I know she tried to contact him at least once. I do not know if he responded to this contact. The key, I think, is that he needs to end all means by which she can contact him-cell phone, email, facebook. That's not happened. I'm thinking of RCR's story about the home phone though and the OW's attempts at contact.
What I saw in the 2-3 weeks before the relationship ended was more frequent emails and I love you texts to me. It was at this time he first made a request to work on our relationship (not the marriage, which he made clear at that time.) and expressed some small recognition of my hurt and the situation we are in. Since the time period when I think the break-up occurred he has stopped the I love you texts and emails. He is contacting me about other things. He is continuing to talk about "us" throughout all of this. He has said a few weird things, and again seems to be focusing on death a bit.
He has hidden his depression and sadness very well since this all began. I've only seen it once or twice in the very early post BD days. The same with anger. He's also told me a few times he is having difficulty sleeping. (welcome to my world honey!) Since he just visits on weekends he may well be angry and sad while he is away. I don't know.
hyperglad--my H stopped making eye contact many months ago. I noticed an increase in eye contact several weeks ago, but it does seem to have decreased again.
Again, thanks HB. I'll continue to let him do the approaching as best as I can. Just as I knew I couldn't force him to end the affair, I know I can't force him to break off all means of contact unfortunately.
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Again, thanks HB. I'll continue to let him do the approaching as best as I can. Just as I knew I couldn't force him to end the affair, I know I can't force him to break off all means of contact unfortunately.
You're right; he has to do this on his own; there's no way you can help him; and he has to come to you, also on his own.
I hope he gathers enough strength to end the affair; it MUST end and ALL contact stopped; before OW Withdrawal can begin in earnest.
Keep us posted on what happens.
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Can I ask this....at first my H was very attached emotionally to OW.....although he was also still very attached to me....he would leave for 1 night, telling me he loved OW, she made him happy, blah blah...only to return the next day.
From January he returned and told me he knew for sure he didn't want to be with her. After saying this she continued to pursue him , in early March he said he felt guilty for leading her on, so he would give her lifts etc. I found out and said, that's it , its over Ive had enough, he went mad, saying she wouldn't leave him alone and he called her up and told her to leave him alone he didn't want to be with her (I know this as fact ).
Now what I don't understand is June, she pursued again and he started going to her house, giving her lifts again. When I found out 5 weeks ago he said he didn't want a relationship with her and never would, and he didn't even know why he kept going there, he said it just seemed like an escape from his hum drum life (his words).
When i discovered him there i told him he didn't get back into our home or my life while he was still in contact. He told me he wanted to stay living alone and didn't want a relationship with anyone. Since then i have stopped asking about her (no point) but he does seem really depressed, every other time I have really forced him to leave her. If he says he doesn't want to be with her will the withdrawal be less severe than the times when he thought he was in love (GAG) will my not asking, leaving him to it also help with the withdrawal process ?
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H, I think what you are seeing is the beginning of OW withdrawal, but because he renews contact with her, it starts over again each time he breaks it off.
I don't know that your actions will make it more or less severe, but I do know he has to do this on his own. I also can't say that his choice to break it off versus he loves her will make any difference. If this was a "normal" human that would make sense, but this is MLC so all bets are off.
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My H told me he has 'cooled' things with OW, but I know he is still in contact to a lesser degree. He has to meet her through work sometimes, but how often he sees her socially I don't know, and don't want to.
It is hard to believe what they say though. He has told me he wants to work things out with me, and yet he is still concerned how she will take it when (if) he plucks up the courage to tell her. He did say the last time the subject was brought up that he knew she wouldn't be happy but 'she is a very intelligent woman so she will know something is wrong'. He said he had had enough of what his life has become.
Some days he seems very quiet and distant, and doesn't want to engage with any of us and I wonder why he bothers to visit at all. A few days ago he mentioned to our Ds that he hadn't been running for a few weeks (OW is his running partner) because he 'couldn't' go. He had nothing important to do instead, so maybe it was because I told him if he wanted to run he had to join another club away from temptation. Maybe he is trying but I don't think he is ready yet.
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What is that part of the journey like if there isn't OW/OM?
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Jupiter
If there is no OW or OM then they move from replay into depression proper and withdrawal proper. If there is no affair this part of withdrawal doesn't exist.
But they still have to work their way through replay and into the next stage. But remember that depression and withdrawal are also part of replay as is anger. It can be very confusing. HB has written the stages on the community page which you can read but try not to work out where your MLCer is as it will drive you nuts. Let him continue on his journey.
xx
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Thanks justasking.
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If there is no OW or OM then they move from replay into depression proper and withdrawal proper. If there is no affair this part of withdrawal doesn't exist.
JA's right; the MLC affair actually LENGTHENS the journey; and the added stress of the affair and OW Withdrawal; not to mention the added GUILT the MLC'er feels as a result.
They do find it is NOT worth it as they work through the reasoning for the affair.
If a MLC'er has NOT had an affair; they will generally feel guilty for other things they THINK they have missed; but the movement is as JA describes.
I don't see many who hasn't had an affair of some sort; but the ones who don't have a strong, and deep core of belief, plus a healthy measure of SELF RESPECT...and though, they have the feelings they DON'T act on them.
I had that draw as I was going through my transition; but my moral code reminded me that it was NOT a good idea, as it was WRONG to do. It seemed, during that time the Lord had abandoned me; BUT it was one of the temptations for "something different" I had to face on my own; and overcome on my own.
So, I hid most of the time; as the feelings were that strong for a period of time.
It is part of the temptation the MLC'er/transition-er goes through and faces, when traveling through the tunnel.
Unfortunately; many take the "bait" the devil offers; and fall hard; sacrificing their self respect and destroying the trust and respect of the LBS in the process.
And the trust and respect takes TIME to rebuild; assuming it ever does...there are many who have problems getting past the act of adultery; only God can bring the LBS through to a position of regaining their trust and respect for their MLC spouse.
Anyhow; I didn't mean to hijack the thread. :)
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Thanks for your response, HB. I appreciate the information.
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LG Remember what Stayed's H said. It's NOT OW It's the allure of a NEW LIFE ::)
that's why when we focus on OUR new lives they look across at us and think "Hey wait a second. What's she doing now???" :o :o :o
I saw this look in my H FOR THE FIRST TIME TONIGHT....as he handed off his kids and his newborn screamed from the MINIVAN he drives around in. IT is one of GREAT curiousity. SO GAL everyone...and if you do it right...you get such A LIFE that whether or not your H returns is a sidenote...seriously. It feels SO Much better and I'm touching on it AGAIN LOL! because there is cycling but really it's the only way to go in this.
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LG Remember what Stayed's H said. It's NOT OW It's the allure of a NEW LIFE ::)
that's why when we focus on OUR new lives they look across at us and think "Hey wait a second. What's she doing now???" :o :o :o
I saw this look in my H FOR THE FIRST TIME TONIGHT....as he handed off his kids and his newborn screamed from the MINIVAN he drives around in. IT is one of GREAT curiousity. SO GAL everyone...and if you do it right...you get such A LIFE that whether or not your H returns is a sidenote...seriously. It feels SO Much better and I'm touching on it AGAIN LOL! because there is cycling but really it's the only way to go in this.
My H has asked me three times about my joining the country club and I refuse to answer. I know he's pissed, but so be it, he is leading the crazy expensive life flying back and forth across the country to see his kids, and I figure what else do I have to do, but take up golf again--his favorite pasttime...
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and I figure what else do I have to do, but take up golf again--his favorite pasttime...
Good one, LisaLives!
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Adding on here... I have just gotten a lot of info Straight from the Horse's Mouth....
If you only KNEW what was really going on..... the FIGHTING is UUUUUUUUGLY..... they seem to be addicted to the sickness of it and the drama.... it is SICK, SICK, SICK..... full of emotional and probably mild physical abuse as well.. it is HATE disguised as LOVE and we all know that there is a think line between the two... however, healthy people err on the side of LOVE and emotionally sick people err on the side of drama and HATE to get their "feel good feelings".. It is like world war three all of the time... but they can't LEAVE because of the emotional blackmail.... the "My car broke down andI have no one else to help me" to "I would have NEVER moved into this apartment if I didn't think you were divorcing your wife!" Part of me wants to know MORE and be a fly on the walll and clap my hands at their damaging WORDS that are another nail in the coffin ot eh adulterous relationship... the other part is HORRIFIED that my husband is involved with this... HORRIFIED!!! He's still deep in the fog.
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MB, No. The 3rd child was 1 1/2 when she and my exH got together last year. She got pregnant with #4 this winter
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http://www.surprisedbylove.com/pdfs/Affair_Love_vs_Authentic_Love.pdf
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This is a really good read. Thanks for sharing!
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If H ever breaks up with 2-bit, I might send him that! ;)
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Soul mates are created, NOT found. True love exists but not for the faint of heart or narcissistically challenged.
AMEN.
Thanks Buggy for posting!
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Appreciate you putting on here for us to read Buggy.
Is this another name for MLC? hedonistic idiots. ::) lol
xx
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Thanks for this. It says it so well. This is going straight to my lying, deceitful, cow of a wife.
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arp......
I'm truly not sure if showing them things like this gets us anywhere; I've found that it backfires. It's like telling them they are in MLC.
Believe me, I'd like to do it, too, but experience has shown that it gets me nowhere.
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T&L,
It doesn't matter anymore. My b!tc# of a wife has finally held her hands up to the affair after months of lying, deceit and betrayal and blaming me for everything. I'm divorcing her. Whether it was/is MLC or not isn't important anymore I am not standing for it any longer. Perhaps she will realise what she's done to me to herself and will be doing to the children when her fantasy world collapses around her ears.
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Arp and all others: PLEASE DO NOT FORWARD THIS ARTICLE TO YOUR MLC'er!!
Don't fight, you simply cannot win. To defend your view is to engage in the power struggle. He/she might do more to proof their new love is real and no ordinairy affair.
A real relationship cannot compete with an affair. The novelty, forbidden, and surrealistic nature of an affair relationship beats a real relationship any day with its sobering demands
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Hi apr1
You sound extrememly angry and bitter, something we all experience. Please, please don't do anything right now, you are not thinking straight and you could do something you regret later. It feels good at the time, but when you calm down you'll feel bad about it.
I don't mean to 'nag' - I know it's good to get angry, but anger can take over and it can be destorying. Try to take a step back.
Take care,
SKxxx
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Hi Arp,
You sound really angry and justifiably so. They blame us and we turn ourselves inside out when all the time they were lying.
I see you are in the UK so it's Monday morning here. Please don't do anything straight away. I know its tempting to get right on to a solicitor and file - believe me I know. But now is the time for the 24 hour rule, even a 7 day rule for something this big. Nothing good comes of things done in anger. Stay calm and breathe.
So the truth is out. Process this and see what it means. Doesn't it prove that all this wasn't about you? This crisis is hers, she is running away.
Whether you want to wait for her to come out of the tunnel is for another day. Today is for letting your anger out - come on here and vent; find an punch bag (not her!) and punch the living daylights out of it: go out into the open and scream and cry. Whatever works for you.
Just don't take any big steps today that you might regret. Read the article above. Is it really likely that her affair will last?
Come back and tell us how you are getting on.
(((Hugs)))
Jilly
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Please please please do not pass onto your MLCer...it is not the point of this information.
This information is for you.
To open your eyes.
To help you see through the fog of anger and depression and grief
To keep YOU connected to reality.
And to reiterate the fact that these things will take care of themselves with time.
What you resist persists.
This was written by a psychologist that went through a bit of an MLC himself...IMO...his wife dropped the rope.
He WOKE up.
I know this is sooooooooooo hard but vent here and use YOUR knowledge as power to move forward and TRUST in greater things.
HUGS
BUGS
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Thanks for the article Buggy. It does help to clarify. Doesn't make it any less painful but gives some insight.
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Thanks Buggy for putting that up.....I think it is really important for everyone to understand
that there is no importance with the Affair....
I made the mistake before in my M to compare myself to the OW and that does nothing but distroy
your self esteem...and Who needs that???
I truly believe ( in my sitch ) that my H's PA wont last past the 2 year mark or even sooner.
Since I have been told from H what their R is like....Good and Bad. I see no normalcy in it what so ever.
a sick, twisted way of thinking...just like in this article. The fantasy plays the role of the R...but reality
always sets in when life takes over....when you still gotta get up for work each day, and your partner
burbs and passes gas and picks his nose....All the realities set in and all you have left is the Affair down
to look at each morning....Eeeek! and I would hate to be in their shoes once that happens...LOL!!!
The pain still rocks you to the core...but once you reach a point of letting the PA/EA go....you can move on
with detachment better....:)
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You bet I'm bitter and angry. I'm absolutely boiling mad at the moment. >:( >:( >:(
All the months I've suffered her mind games, blaming me, finding fault, playing down her 'friend', playing nice when it suited. I'm sick of it. She's going to face up to this once and for all and pay the price.
Affairs must run in her family. Both of her sisters have had affairs and I know other relatives did too. What the f**ck did I marry into! :-\
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Arp....
That is all natural...anger will come and go when you least expect it...but remember to validate it and then release
it to God or your higher power...Holding onto anger is one of the worst health dostroyers out there...
Guilt being number #1, I believe anyway...
Write it out....punch a bag....go for a drive...and stop somewhere and scream at the top of your lungs!! I've done it
alot...Let the anger go....but remember where you Want to be...
I am just like you...I want to give up every other week...I get angry and then tell myself "whats the point"
But after I let it go...I can move on....Maybe Arp, Even go cry. It's really ok to cry....
Here is a ((((((((BIG HUG)))))))))) for you!!
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You bet I'm bitter and angry. I'm absolutely boiling mad at the moment. >:( >:( >:(
All the months I've suffered her mind games, blaming me, finding fault, playing down her 'friend', playing nice when it suited. I'm sick of it. She's going to face up to this once and for all and pay the price.
Affairs must run in her family. Both of her sisters have had affairs and I know other relatives did too. What the f**ck did I marry into! :-\
Hi arp1,
I'm sorry you're overwhelmed at the moment.
She deserves everything you want to give her.
The problem is the only one you're really going to hurt is yourself.
She won't "get it". She's lost.
The woman you love is in there struggling, Be patient for her.
Set boundaries to protect yourself from this woman and then just see what happens.
Let some of that anger go. Go for a run or something.
Hang in there.
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LIW,
Very good post!
And, really right on the money.
Arp - you cannot do anything worse to her than she has already done to herself.
All you can do is take care of you.
If you take ANY action - that action needs to be for your own protection....not as a means to hurt her. Even though you want to hurt her (as she as hurt you) - you will not find any solace in taking that action. You will not find solace in hurting her. Trust me on this.
Take care of yourself.
L
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Arp, so sorry that you have had your suspicions confirmed. The truth is that very few MLCers don't have affairs. There is an interesting article somewhere that also talks about the different reactions that men and women TEND to have towards infidelity; it is a generalisation but it is worth thinking about as you take some time to process the news.
IT seems that men often find the most challenging part of an affair the sexual intimacy aspect of the whole thing whereas for women it is often the emotional intimacy that their partner shares with another. There are some theories about how women and men express love which explain this difference. Of course, we ALL have an element of anger and betrayal about both aspects, but if a woman found out that her husband was having a mainly sexual relationship it is likely she would find it easier to get over than an "emotionally bonded" relationship while a man may be able to get past an emotional "friendship" but if it has turned sexual they often find it almost unforgivable. Obviously, I am not saying one reaction is better than the other, but when we are dealing with MLC (whether we are male or female) often we are dealing with both a PA and an EA rolled into one. So it is a betrayal of everything. THat is because they are not looking for a fling, or a good friend, they are looking for a total escape from their life; an all powerful "in love" relationship that will prove that their lives are better than the mundane normality that life with their spouse has become. I tried to have a discussion with my H about the nature of true love, saying that love was not just a feeling, love was an action and a choice. He disagreed. In MLC he has jumped on board with the idea that love is all about feelings (like in the article posted on this thread). He was adamant and looked at me as if I came from another planet when I told him that love was more complicated than just a feeling. He also couldn't remember "feeling" the same way about me 16 years ago although I KNOW that the start of our relationship was intense and passionate and full of infatuation hormones flying around for more than a year - our friends used to joke that we were never out of the bedroom and couldn't keep our hands off of each other - those memories don't exist for H right now and I can only imagine that it is MLC that has caused the rewrite.
Anyway, what she has done is painful and wrong and awful. But it is not the same woman that you were married to making these choices. It is a bit like aliens come down and inhabit their bodies for a while. They need to realise that the infatuation will die with EVERY relationship they enter, but it will take time for that to happen. The thing is that during that time they are encountering an infatuation with a damaged OP and as a damaged OP. The relationship is not "pure" it is based on hurting so many people and disrupting so many lives and is all about a fantasy that NO REALITY can live up to. But if we are reactive we add fuel to the fire; we allow them to justify what they have done. "See what a big jerk my H is, look how he reacts, he doesnt even care if I am happy, he never has" or "well, he is such an angry man you can see why I HAD to have an affair and leave him!" The ONLY way to win this, is to be calm and detach, but you can't do that the day you find out, so you need to apply the rule that jilly mentioned. Give yourself a time frame before you do anything drastic. You may still want to, but better to do it from a position of calm than intense anger. It is never a good idea to make huge life altering decisions based on intense anger.
Please think about the advice offered here. We have all been where you are. I was there 8 months ago and had to listen to H tell me in far too much detail how wonderful the sex and the relationship with OW was. I wanted to file then and there. Actually, I wanted to pack up my kids and move to the other side of the world so he could never see them again, just to punish him. That ( I think) is normal.
But 8 mths on, I haven't filed. I am working on me and I may still get to a place where I wish to divorce but I will do it from a place of peace. Where I am at peace with the end of the R, at peace with who I am, at peace with the idea that H's affair and abandonment is absolutely not a reflection on me as a person. I am getting there. There is no rush. Honestly. I am sad still at times and I have angry moments (sometimes angry days) but I am at a place in my life where I am starting to feel like if H came back to me, I would be making a real, considered choice. And if I said, no - it is not going to happen it would not be out of spite or hate or anger. It would be because I had outgrown what he can ever hope to offer me. So, sorry about the lecture, I don't mean it to come off all teachery, but I really think giving yourself a day or two before reacting may be the best way.
Big HUGS!!!
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Dear arp1,
I feel your pain and I am so sad for you :( but read all the wonderful advice you've been given above.... I am still in a bad place to give you advice but I know good posts when I read them! It is exactly a year for me when I believe that the emotional affair with OW started, but I didn't get the BD until September.. I have still not filed for D yet, although I feel I won't have a choice financially. But don't send your wife the link that Buggy put up...it is so true to US on our side of the fence, but I doubt your wife will even read it! yet alone recognise herself in it... It is so very sad but true, at the moment she can't see anything but her own happiness and you will probably give her the "justification" she needs that leaving you was the right thing to do....
Come back to the Forum to vent your anger, but your boys need you at the moment as they will be hurting too...
Love and hugs
Fox xxx
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You bet I'm bitter and angry. I'm absolutely boiling mad at the moment. >:( >:( >:(
As well you should be; it's perfectly normal to be angry when someone you love and trust betrays that trust. As a man who has been through the exact same scenario, I understand some of what you are going through.
All the months I've suffered her mind games, blaming me, finding fault, playing down her 'friend', playing nice when it suited. I'm sick of it. She's going to face up to this once and for all and pay the price.
However, reacting out of anger is NOT the best thing to do.
You think it will just be her paying the price, but it will be everyone around you as well, including yourself. You will force people to "pick sides", pitting "your" friends against "her" friends. You will poison your family against her, which can make it harder to reconcile down the road, if that is something you choose to do. You may think that you can turn her family against her, but when it comes down to it, she is their daughter, or niece, or sister; you will end up being the bitter ex-husband.
Affairs must run in her family. Both of her sisters have had affairs and I know other relatives did too. What the f**ck did I marry into! :-\
That is a very good question; I'm curious to know if her parents are divorced, and if either of them had an affair. People tend to model their relationships by what they see around them, so if you are raised to think that marriage is something you just walk away from when it's not fulfilling for you, or that you have to do "what feels right", then that is what you will tend to do.
With that in mind, you might want to think about what divorcing your wife, especially in anger, will do to your kids. You will teach them that love is conditional and that offenses can never be forgiven. You will make it harder for them to have healthy relationships, and make them more likely to end up facing divorce.
The best thing in the world for you to do right now is NOTHING. We frequently cite a "48-hour rule" around here, in that it's best to wait 48 hours before making any major decision.
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i definitely reccomend the 48 hour rule. it gives you time to think and reflect. a good friend told me 6 months ago she admired how i did not kick off and give ow a hard time. i could have been nasty and done damage and told ow hubby what was going on but im so glad looking back now that i did not do it. i just think of all the kids i have with hubby and even ow kids. please sit back and reflect at least before you do anything. thinking of you and know how tough it is for us lbs. remember all us on here are in the same place as you and know how much youre hurting inside.
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Dear arp1
I hope you can feel the circle of friends around you right now getting bigger and stronger.
A big (((((((HUG)))))))) from me right now. I'm working from home today. Just dropped the kids off and felt an overwhelming sense of frustration and anger at H. Thankfully, being at home meant I could scream and close my eyes and imagine beating him with my fists. I just cannot believe how a human being can be so calmly cruel and manipulative, lying and taunting those that they once professed to love.
It's important to get it out and you have ever right to be angry. But don't let the enemy get hold of your anger. Keep your dignity. You don't have to take her back but you don't need to lower your standards. Hold your head high and be a great example for your family. Give it up to God and tell him you can't handle it.
There's no point sending that article to her, because, even on the off chance she did read it, it wouldn't sink into her brain any way so you'd be wasting your time and emotions. She'll just believe what she wants to to justify her self. Try writing her a letter that you won't send. I've done that a few times to get stuff off my chest. I hold on the the letter and after a few days I don't feel like sending it anyway.
Hope you get some peace.
SP
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I'm not sure where the place for stories like this is, so I'll put it here. If a moderator thinks it should be elsewhere, please go ahead and move it!
This isn't a happy story, just one I found out about a couple of years ago. It puts me in an interesting position.
This is about the mother of one of my S's friends. She and her H (unmarried) have 3 kids, all teenagers. She was pretty nice; a bit harrassed, she works hard, but who doesn't these days? I used to be pretty impressed that her H would show up at so many school things, seem to speak intelligently about the kids, that kind of thing.
As you do, I started to become friendly with her, to listen to how her job was going, that kind of thing. Learned that she and her H worked together.
Imagine my shock when I found out that she was OW. She told me that "she wasn't proud of it, but she took him from his family with 3 children, because they just fell so much in love....." From everything she said it was definitely an MLC affair.
This was now a long time ago. Turns out that he is still married to W1, and what's more, that he's not really working much, that she (OW) is the one earning all the money, she owns the house (she's underneath it all afraid that if he owned it his W might have some claim to it....), she runs it all. She's exhausted, irritable, you name it.
And with regards to having children, he wasn't even that thrilled about the idea; she said that she had to promise him that she wouldn't neglect him..... Did she get pregnant to keep him? May well have done.... well, she got him, but even she says that she realises that what they did 'wasn't exactly right'.
He is a lot older than her; he has grandchildren that are the same age as his second family children. The grandchildren don't get on with their new kids..... I have no idea what his r with his children is like. My guess is not very good.
I don't know the reason why he never divorced his W; she (OW) told me that the W hadn't wanted to. I have no idea as to the reason, whether she was standing or had religious or other reasons. No idea. And he has 3 children with OW..... I have to admit that even I would give up at that stage.
He potters around the house; she tries to delegate kid stuff to him because she has to work so hard to earn the money; he does appear to do renovations and the like, but they have a lot of help -- a friend of hers, who acts as godfather to the kids, seems to be around all the time, helping with the house and the kids.
This puts me in an interesting position. My S's friend is a perfectly nice boy, none of this has anything to do with him. So of course the friendship is fine. But since I found this out I'll admit I have a really hard time stomaching being around her, and in particular her H. I now look at him and feel something akin to disgust. That's not charitable, but true. At least I can say it here. Now I see a fool.
She says she wouldn't do it again -- it's been rocky, they even split up for a while, but I guess she feels that this is better than being alone. And yes, there are 3 children.
As for the man? well, I have no idea what he thinks and feels. He seems to be getting OW to support him, doing what he wants. OW says that they are in a good place now, but all I see is an overworked woman. And he just chuckles at her. I don't think he has any strength at all.
I get the feeling that his supposedly being so good with the kids is just a front; she tries to delegate it to him but he is actually pretty useless.
Life isn't a picnic for them, far from it. And the kids are just caught up in it. On the surface they have a family life, I now stay far out of it. I have the boy over, and let my S go there, but I don't linger over coffee..... sad, but true.
The OW does feel guilt, don't know about him. It seems their families accept it; I've seen her parents around, and his sister, at least. But that may well be because of the kids.
As for his W, well, I have no idea what her story is, how her life is. I'll admit the thought that she is far, far better off without this man, though.
It's a crap situation all around. I don't know more, mainly because I don't want to -- I keep my distance. Funny, a few years ago I might have been interested in a "soap opera" kind of way, now I just go "yuck!" and run....
I'm not putting this here to discourage anyone; the man in question really isn't capabale of being a decent, let alone good, partner. I hope his W knows that, and is happy with her life.
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My H talked about missing out on things. I said like what. He said going to Harley functions ect..
This is part of the insanity of it. My H feels he didn't get to have the things other people had in their youth. Now I don't know about the rest of you, but I don't have ANY friends who were driving sports cars, making huge sums of money and wearing designer clothes through their 20s - not couples, not singles. In our 20s all of us were trying to build careers. The only people I knew going on flash holidays were either investment bankers (who worked 16 hour days every day except on their ONE week of holiday that they felt they could take or they had very wealthy parents, so they had never earned the money themselves. Most of our friends were just like us (even if not married) and drove second hand cars, worked long hours, bought clothes at high street shops and tried to build careers. I don't know what sense of entitlement makes my H think he, in particular, deserved sports cars and designer clothes during those years...
But this, to my mind is part of the problem, my H spent his early life in a sort of fantastical illusion about life. I don't know if that is going to be remedied in this MLC, but I hope for his sake he gets a better grip on things.
T&L. That story is unfortunate, but you are right the wife is no doubt better off (hopefully in her own new fulfilling R with someone better - who knows maybe she met someone else herself which is why the H never returned) and the OW is clearly more than paying for her affair by having this less than wonderful relationship, which goes to show that being so desperate that you will cling to a relationship no matter how badly it turns out, is not a good place to be in either.
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I agree with all of it.. LG, I know first hand that ow and my h FIGHT FIGHT FIGHT.. I saw a few textes the other day when I snoop... yes I did but I normally dont...Anyway... the words and names they call one another are horrible. They fight way more then I know of and I can tell. She wants him to divorce me and its been 2 yrs and she will never mess with another married man and the NAMES she calls me....HOLY CRAP.... I cant believe it and I never did anything to her...Why the men keep in the emotional blackmail I dont know... But your correct on I need a ride no one else can help me.. Friday she needed help cause her tire was flat..(I saw it in the text) he sent his brother to do it.. lol... and the fight was on... He also did not help her move into her apt.. he fought with her through text all night as he is rubbing my leg...lol... I also feel there is something more to this R with them. In the texts she was stating... The under covers are everywhere... then h said.. your a dum ass your gonna lose your job..... that sounded like she does something else on the side... Anyways, she is a hood rat as my h tells her and he affaired way down.. but I still do not understand WHY THE HELL they keep in the drama and live the simple peaceful life with us adn the kids>>>> Cause when I look at it... in 2 yrs he has not left, she gets maybe 2 nights a week for maybe 5 hours and the rest is texing is that a realtionship? NO... They dont really know one another except for the drinking, gifts she gets him and the sex.... Pisses me off but this is his journey...
Also, our neighbor now divorce... Left his first wife for ow who just divorce him... Guess what??? He started another affair on her and she kicked him to the curb,, I speak to her as she stayed in the house and said it was the biggest mistake because they always fought, or didnt talk much, and she was ALWAYS jelouse of other woman. Very insecure.. She said she will never do that again.
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T&L, I have a "friend" in almost the same sitch. This is weird and hard to explain, and remember I live in a SMALL town. So, my S12 has a best friend down the street, A, who is also friends with N who ends up on his baseball team two years ago, just before my BD. So I get to be friends with Mom and S12 and N get to be friends. I know she's divorced, but she lives in a great house and has the best relationship ever with her ex so I looked to her for advice after BD. Come to find out from A's mom who knows them well that our S's are also friends with M who lives in the next hood--across a major street, different school district, but only six blocks away. It turns out N's Mom and M's Mom share a spouse. He is married to M's Mom, but "fell in love" with N's Mom who he lives with every other weekend when her kids are with their Dad. He bought her house and keeps her, and W tolerates it because she does not believe in divorce. Everyone in town knows but me, and their kids, supposedly, but really, they must know... So I have a really hard time being friends with N's mom now, but she is also important to me professionally, so I have to, and so goes life in a small town... Is that not weird, though?
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This is what I got from my attorney on Friday. I get a message every Friday and I always feel most of them are anti-divorce--aimed at the leaving spouse. In fact on my first visit, he told me that if I wanted to stay married, I needed to recommend one of three other divorce attorneys to my H because he said they have all seen our sitch so many times and it is obvious it is a disaster in the making. Unfortunately my H had already hired the nasty woman who hated women, especially stay-at-home mom type women, so I was SOL... But anyway, this was my Friday message:
Sobering Reminder
FACT OF THE DAY:
Over 75% of people who marry partners from an affair eventually divorce. -
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Oh, Lisa.... so your husband hired a woman who wants to prove she's more of a man than a man, huh? I hate women that aren't content being feminine... and I don't mean "girly".... I mean, FEMININE....women who hate other women...AND they hate men, too, LOL!! Isn't that essentially what your husband is dating? Your attorney sounds like a GEM....
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Let me say here that some of my best friends are gay, and I mean this in no bad way, but my H hired the local lesbian family law attorney--I could input the derogatory epithet, but you get it. She specializes in representing lesbian women who leave their spouses. And she is hateful--if I could print some of the messages I've gotten from her, you would get it.
But I am glad, because when all this started, I was not prepared to fight him in court, when he offered me $800 a month in child support (no spousal), I figured--I married for love, not money, so if that is all he was offering, then I would take it and figure out the rest. Then I got a NASTY message from her and I went to my attorney and said--this is what I want, I will not negotiate or compromise, so we are going to court. Lo and behold, he agreed--but I should have asked for more, the judge would likely have awarded me more, but alas, I am okay, and I will be okay.
But she hates women like me, and men, unless they are defending against women like me, they are the lesser evil... But my H is going to marry a southern belle, she loves men, I think, loves being rescued, I think, or some such fairy tale kind of fantasy... Whatever, I hope it works out for her! But my attorney is a gem, I could give you details, but I love him and his entire firm.
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LisaLives
I hope the woman your husband is marrying also loves divorce, because if she goes through with marrying your husband, it's VERY likely in her future.......just sayin'
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DGU, I know, right?
When H told me he was getting married, I just laughed and said "why because divorce is so much fun you can't wait to do it again?" Then I told him he was a fool. It may not sound detached, but it really was. I felt as detached as if I was talking to "just a friend." A few months before I could not have laughed, but in that moment it really was one of the funniest things I had ever heard--getting married, why--they already had sex when they were married to other people, they already have kids with other people, what kind of legitimacy does marriage give them at this point? All I keep telling people is that "he has to do what he has to do and I hope he finds the happiness he seeks." I had an amazing discussion with an amazing man today whose teenage son committed suicide two years ago. Strong people learn to put everything in perspective--do it, it works and it helps. Love to you all, I have lots to give today!
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WOW!! When I called your husband's attorney a woman/man hater, lesbian did not come to mind at all..... Some women feel that NO ONE will RESPECT them unless they unleash holy hell right from the get go. They show NO finesse.... just ham handed nastiness.... like a caricature of what a businesswoman is like..... Right now there seems to be a plethora of "Tough Chick Professional Woman CEO or Detective or Medical Examiner or Serial Killer Catcher or Military Woman" type shows on tv.... it's a fantasy.
Reminds me of that movie G.I. Jane where the two big scenes are when Demi Moore shaves her head to show she's one of the boys and then the one where she's being goaded and she tells some guy to "suck my big d***!!) :o I really never got the appeal of that particular fantasy, but, to each his own.
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This came up on another thread so I'm recreating it. Writing Mama posted awhile ago but WOW it's insightful....just more validation to STEP FAR AWAY from OW and MLCer. It ain't even close to smelling like roses.
http://gettinbetter.com/waif.html
OH not sure how this applies to OM
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HOLY CR4P
That describes ow to a"t"
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So many similarities to both h and OW! It may be interesting when it all falls apart. I need to have my popcorn ready!
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HOLY Mother of Jesus!!
EVERY single word is H's OW..That is freaky and scary all at the same time..I am shocked!
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Too tired to read and make sense of this tonight. I want to read it and get my head wrapped around it better.
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Buggy, many thanks for starting this thread. I read the article; however, just wanted to say that there are other very good articles on the site. I have just read the one about Addiction and will probably read others later. As OP says 'knowledge is power.
So again, thank you.
CrazyStuff
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Thanks so much for this info Buggy, and CS, I read through some of the other articles too. She's pretty switched on and intuitive this woman.
There's a lot of really great information there....... I do feel sick though. These OW are pretty damn scary!
I've been piecing together a few things H has said about OW, and she sure fits the bill. Good luck to him is all I can say.....
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Bugs!!!! Just popping back in to catch up on the story of someone from a PM. This is great info! Forgot all about it. Thanks for the re-post from one BPDOW survivor to another!
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This was wrote by a counsellor who specialises in midlife crisis.............thought i would share this with my friends xxxxxxxxxxxx
People in Mid life crisis are looking for answers. Often times a person in mid life crisis is not ready to be alone and looks for help outside their current situation.
As a result the consequence of many Midlife Crisis situations is that a person will think about or even have an affair.
I have helped many people work through the consequences of Midlife affairs. Lets not try to make the situation pretty: the fact is, once you are reading this, it means you have entered in a very hard world, with very real consequences that will effect the rest of your life.
The only way to handle a midlife affair is to remove judgement. Judgement traps a person into having an affair and judgements force affairs to go deeper and become messier situations than they need to be. Judgements prevent people from learning from their mistakes. Judgement after the affair will prevent a healthy relationship from growing from the aftermath.
So the one truth that must get released is:
Release the judgement!
There are three cases to consider: Pre Affair, During the Affair and Post Affair.
Pre Affair
If you are considering a midlife affair, it means your current relation has problems. It also means you are afraid to directly work with your partner or that your partner has stopped communicating with you.
In the end many midlife affairs happen because it is the only route where a person feels brave enough or alive enough to begin trying to find answers to their personal problems. The longing towards the affair is also the longing that another person can help solve the problems that are tugging at your heart.
If you are longing towards an affair the first step is to realize that your current relationship is already having serious enough problems to end it.
Finding a counselor to help you begin work out issues is often a better path to explore rather than just suppressing your feelings. The problem is individuals are often blind to their own problems and cannot fix them on their own (hence the pull to an affair). The only trouble is the affair rarely fixes personal problems, rather affairs usually only add additional complications into the mix.
Most people try to solve the pre affair by suppressing their own feelings. Suppression of personal feelings will always fail as an answer. Suppression of feelings leads to (a) you breaking down to having the affair, (b) the pent up feelings coming out volcanically to break your current relationship later in a much more painful manner or (c) pent up feelings slowly rend your heart apart to the point you spiritually die, or even worse (d) the pent up feelings slowly tear a person up inside to the point they stop caring about life, many heart attacks and cancers come out of not taking care of your body properly.
During the Midlife Affair
The truth is sometimes the midlife affair has to happen. Too much tension exists or the need for freedom is so strong that a person finds themselves in a relationship with another person. Part of this attraction comes out from that fact all new relationships are relatively judgement free still. New relationships are fresh, this opens up new experiences and kick starts the exploration of life again. The pull to live again is very irresistible. The pull to be with a person that doesn’t limit one down with judgements or measurement is intoxicating.
The only problem is this: having started a new relationship by breaking trust, this also sows the seeds of hidden judgements, judgements that will grow and circle back around to slowly eat away at your choices. A person can run only so far before having to start dealing with the very issues that created the previous set of relationship problems eating away at the earlier relationship.
The first few months of any affair is magical, but at some point judgement and past patterns will creep back into the situation to cause most people to repeat the seeds of crisis they were running away from.
Post Midlife Affair
At some point, events catch up to a person and their relationship. Most people fall back to the common tools taught to them by society to handle the after effects of an affair: anger, judgement, hate, despair, feeling wronged and feeling morally right…
Conflict accomplishes nothing, and in the end judgement results in conflict.
The truth is this:
The whole midlife affair ends up actually being inconsequential. Most people living fresh from the results of the affair won’t believe this statement. But it is true. What truly matters is this: What did you learn and how did you use the situation to grow from?
If you focus on the affair, you then get stuck in the past and judgements which limit how you can grow from the situation. Learn from the affair but don’t focus upon it either. The affair is a stepping stone towards a better life for everyone, if used as a stepping stone. For most people affairs become swamps of despair. Such a place is not a place worth living within.
Many people waste the experience to hate or regrets. Hate is a very sad limited way to hold an experience. Hate allows no room for growth. In fact, hate dissolves the heart away, it eats a person away until they are left with nothing. Those resorting to hate often will fall prey to depression and slowly pull away from others.
No this whole process means being brave enough to stand up and learn from the experience. To be willing to live life honestly and not hiding away from others.
The Real Truth about Midlife Affairs
This is a very delicate case by case situation that most of the time will not be resolved smoothly without outside assistance. The truth is once the affair happens, the marriage is officially broken. The fundamental value of trust that a marriage is based upon is broken and will never again be the same.
But here is the secret:
Mid life transformation is all about starting a new life. You and your partner are in mid life transformation. This means it’s possible to start and build a fresh new trust between partners, to create a whole new relationship, since you both are in transformation!
The process runs like this
Remove judgement. No one is guilty.
Release the Relationship. (All relationships)
A new friendship is beginning.
Work with kindness.
Help each other grow
In time, if love reignites then remarry, if not then help each other move on
Is this easy? No it isn’t. The over whelming response of our society is to push guilt, to force relationships and want answers right away. Yet the mid life transformation process takes roughly two years to grow within. It takes time to grow and find one’s nature.
But to those who take the time:
This is literally becomes a magical process,
truly the stuff of stories everyone else reads about and wishes would happen to them.
The only trouble is this, reading a story with a happy ending is fast and quick and takes no effort.
To live the happy ending is a slow process requiring patience, it means making mistakes and growing from those mistakes. It’s lots of hard effort which very few people are willing to do in a society where everything is consumed and expected to happen by miracles and pills…
Finally and most importantly:
Be Brave.
Hiding from an midlife affair or truth only diminishes you in this process.
Be Brave: so you can live your life and grow.
Right now, it won’t seem possible that the whole affair issue can ever resolve out gracefully, but having work with many people, all my clients say the same thing, they would go thru the process again: because it allowed them to truly live again, honestly and completely as themselves! In other words, many relationships have become a prison from judgements and that is where the affair comes into the picture. In this process, we free those involved to live to heart, without judgement. The whole affair literally just becomes a past story to be shed as each person transforms into a newer wiser person.
Literally
Shed it or have it shred you.
Many people reading this are probably feeling shredded by the thoughts of an affair…The shredding feeling is your soul eroding away. Stand up and live your life.. or watch it erode away in pain.
It really is a personal choice. Sadly most people in this culture choose the painful path, only because they haven’t been shown another way. This article is to help show, there is a better path that does work.
Source: http://personaltao.com/taoism-library/midlife-crisis/survive-thrive-affair/ (http://personaltao.com/taoism-library/midlife-crisis/survive-thrive-affair/)
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Thank you for this. I'm having a rough day and am in HB withdrawal, so this post was very timely. I really appreciate it.
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WGH,
This is very interesting to read but I have two problems with it and that is the line "no one is guilty" and "Sometimes the truth is a midlife affair has to happen".
What I liked though is that the article is urging people not to take that route. But as for the above, no affair HAS to happen and yes, when it does, someone IS guilty. Perhaps that isn't progressive but don't we always take about accountability here?
Just wondering what you think...
Thanks for sharing,
Bon.
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Hi Bon bon
"no one is guilty"................
not sure about this one......maybe someone else can answer this :o :o :o :o :o
Sometimes the truth is a midlife affair has to happen".........................
i believe this is what the counsellor meant:
In the end many midlife affairs happen because it is the only route where a person feels brave enough or alive enough to begin trying to find answers to their personal problems. The longing towards the affair is also the longing that another person can help solve the problems that are tugging at their heart.
Dont know just posted as its always interesting to read what others think xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
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Interesting piece, but I was a bit confused about who the writer was addressing: the MLCer or the LBS, or both. Also, does the OW/OM get this "growth" the writer waxes so eloquently about? How often, I wonder, do all three parties in the mid life affair triangle (the two spouses and the alienator) each achieve the kind of enlightenment being presented as possible here?
Like never?
And if all three don't, isn't there a terrible price in human suffering to be paid for the "growth" of the person who does achieve a better life?
MLC affairs do have the potential to expand one's ability to feel "alive," I'm sure of that. But so does recovery work, good therapy, serious volunteer commitment, and committed spiritual work. Although the article starts off trying to discourage the MLC affair, the author sure makes it sound attractive.
My $.02.
TMHP
M 58
H 60
D 22
M 38 yrs.
BD Jan. '11
H living with OW
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I think the "no one is guilty" statement the counselor write might be better stated that "MLC is unavoidable".
I also do not like this statement. "Many people waste the experience to hate or regrets."
I understand the part about hate.....but at this point, I'm all for the MLCer having regret. Regret is a consequence of bad choice in my opinion.
I do believe MLC serves a purpose in the emotional development of the MLCer.
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DGU...I agree!
This is a good article! Helped me REMEMBER alot of lessons learned!
hugs,
L
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Interesting piece. I had trouble with
Yet the mid life transformation process takes roughly two years to grow within. It takes time to grow and find one’s nature.
I think this is wishful thinking. If the person is truly in MLC, two years is but a drop in the bucket.
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Still
Yep.....reminds me of this from RCR's article Becoming Number One
"I know, two years feels like an eternity, but in MLC it's merely the end of the beginning"
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Exactly, DGU.
RCR should have you on staff. You always know just where to find every item in every article!
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He turned it down, Still. I said the same thing earlier. DGU rocks!!
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WGH,
I'm glad you posted this. It's always good to read whatever is out there.
I just wonder how much we coddle these people and I guess that is my problem.
Which probably says more about me and my continued lack of digesting that this isn't personal nor by choice. I fully admit that...I'm not proud of it and I do know better intellectually.
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The writer says "let's not try to make the situation pretty". Ok, well the writer can start by removing the term "affair" and replace it with adultery. When you read the article and use the word adultery where affair is used it certainly doesn't sound pretty.
Survive And Thrive After Midlife Adultery!!!
"People in Mid life crisis are looking for answers. Often times a person in mid life crisis is not ready to be alone and looks for help outside their current situation.
As a result the consequence of many Midlife Crisis situations is that a person will think about or even engage in adultery
I have helped many people work through the consequences of Midlife adultery. Lets not try to make the situation pretty: the fact is, once you are reading this, it means you have entered in a very hard world, with very real consequences that will effect the rest of your life.
The only way to handle midlife adultery is to remove judgement. Judgement traps a person into committing adultery and judgements force adultery to go deeper and become messier situations than they need to be. Judgements prevent people from learning from their mistakes. Judgement after the adutery will prevent a healthy relationship from growing from the aftermath.
So the one truth that must get released is:
Release the judgement!
There are three cases to consider: Pre adultery, During the adultery and Post adultery
Pre adultery".......and so on......
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Honour
Now I would call that "edited for clarity".
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Adultery is what it is.....
Affair is too kind a word for all the pain, anguish and betrayal that the word actually means....
Adultery is what it is.....can't be wrapped up any other way to make it easier for the Adulterer!
Foxy xxx
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Glad to see you back, Honour
And I agree. Adultery is adultery. Pure and simple.
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If you are longing towards an affair the first step is to realize that your current relationship is already having serious enough problems to end it.
I had the biggest problem with this statement. Because you are crushing on an alienator, and enjoying their pursuit of you, your 10,20, 30 year marriage should be discarded like a cracked coffee mug? Really? I don't agree. Rather I believe the first step is to turn towards your spouse, and ask for help with your issues. IDK, it just ticked me off, (I am judging!) maybe I misunderstood it.
I do agree that to fully recover, one has to release judgement (find empathy and compassion to forgive?) to move forward, but that takes time and work!
And yeah, I agree "affair" makes it sound like a party everyone was invited to celebrate a happy event ???
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So is it considered Judgement to state that Adultery is wrong? (at least according to my beliefs)
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The writer says
"The process runs like this
Remove judgement. No one is guilty."
Would we say this if we were talking about murder? Or stealing?
Are we to believe because its adultery no one is guilty? My children certainly believe their mother is guilty. I have tried to explain to them the reasons for W's behaviour but they say they can't just excuse everything she has done because of something in her childhood. "Where do you draw the line?" they have said to me.
I believe it is possible to forgive the MLCer. I believe this is possible because I tend towards the theory that this extreme behaviour that occurs at midlife is borne of depression. Depression caused by unresolved childhood issues, poor self-esteem and hormones. And there are the well documented triggers that spark it off. Having seen and heard what I did from my W and having read so many other accounts of MLC on these forums I am of the view that these people are mentally ill. A hallmark of depression is confusion. They are confused and so totaly lost in their distorted thinking. Depression is frightening. Terrifying. In their fear they scrabble around loking for a "cure" and the cure comes in the form of the euphoria of the new "love". A feeling of being "new" and "alive" that comes with the release of brain chemicals, feels like the cure. And they rationalize as follows: if the Alienator makes me feel this good then all my sadness must have been the fault of my husband/wife. And they get angry, hence Monster.
So if we are secure within ourselves, grounded with ourselves and our Creator we can forgive and understand the MLCer. But the adulterer has broken their marriage vows, betrayed trust, and damaged young minds when there are children involved. If the MLCer does not experience guilt for such actions then they have no conscience. If you have no conscience then you are psychotic.
If a psychotic commits murder, the psychotic is guilty. There maybe psychological reasons and explainations for the psychotic to commit an such an act but a court would still find the defendant guilty.
An adulterer can be forgiven and helped and healed but I don't think it is healthy to lose sight of the fact that adultery is wrong.
honour
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Thank you Honour!
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Adultery to be forgiven first has to be recognised by the person who's done it! My H has never said it was a mistake, and he regrets it.....
Back when we were together for a couple of weeks in April/May he admitted it was wrong what he did...but never actually told me "what" was wrong....the fact that he'd had an affair, had sex, betrayed me, lied to me, or presently living with a married woman!!!! In my eyes ALL these things are wrong...
The fact that they are wrong, doesn't mean one can't forgive the Adulterer...but you have to have somewhere to start from? No way could I take H back if he didn't prove to me that he was sorry for everything he'd done and talk about things...because it was the lack of communication between us that led to this disastrous path in the first place - so to move on with any kind of relationship trust has to be found again - as none of us are saints....
One of the Worst lines in movie history is the line "Love means never having to say you're sorry" from Love Story, personally I think that is rubbish! To validate that you have hurt someone so deeply that you admit you are wrong is a wonderful thing otherwise someone in the relationship is being a door mat....
Just my opinion....that's all....
Love and hugs
Fox xxxx
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IMO it is possible to forgive the adulterer for their bad decisions. If we don't then we stand a chance of letting that person impact on the rest of our lives as we get more and more angry and bitterness becomes a way of life.
Waiting for the adulterer in MLC to admit what they are doing is wrong may take a long long time. Currently in their eyes they don't see what is wrong. So this holds you up on the way to forgive.
Forgiveness is hard. But it can be done. I think the longer we are standing as LBS the easier it becomes. It is part of our journey to something better in the future. Part of us realising that we are not reliant on someone else to make us happy.
xx
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Honour, those are some of the most sensible words I've read yet about the MLCer and adultery. Thank you!
I too HATE the word "affair," especially when the intense relationship of the MLC/OW "situation" is being discussed. Affair connotes Cary Grant and Deborah Kerr on an ocean liner having dinner together and looking soulfully into each other's eyes. It's romantic.
They is nothing romantic about adultery. If you've never done so, I'd highly recommend to everyone on this board you read Tolstoy's masterpiece Anna Karenena. He tells the whole story of the cost of adultery and spares nothing. Brilliant book.
From time to time I will use the word adultery when talking with friends or even my daughter about my H's current behavior. I refer to OW as my H's "adulterous partner" or "partner in adultery." I call their situation an "adulterous relationship." Even though I know my friends and D mightily disapprove of what my H's doing, I see them flinch when I use that word.
Too bad. It's the TRUTH.
TMHP
M 58
H 60
D 22
M 38 yrs.
BD Jan. '11
H living with OW
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Absolutely TMHP... why is one of the reasons for Divorce "Adultery" because it is a broken contract within Law as well as in the sight of God.
I agree with JA of course it can be forgiven but with an awful lot of work from both sides. Trust? now that's a whole different ball of wax! :-\
Foxy xxx
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Foxberry
"Adultery to be forgiven first has to be recognised by the person who's done it! My H has never said it was a mistake, and he regrets it....."
I don't know that there are any prerequisites to forgiveness. Your husband is not likely to talk about regrets so soon.
"because it was the lack of communication between us that led to this disastrous path in the first place"
Your statement is a little vague, and perhaps this isn't what you meant.....but lack of communication does not cause MLC.
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DGU,
That was my point when my H came back at Easter he would only say what he'd done was wrong not that he regretted anything or it was a mistake and certainly not that he loved me...he would only tell me the things that were annoying him about OW....no reason to come back to me for sure. I agree with you obviously still in MLC and not ready to face what he'd done...although he did say things like "I thought we were going to talk about the future?" obviously I needed to deal with what had happened before I could move on... and "we need to deal with things in bite sized chunks" not quite sure what he meant by that, obviously deal with things at his pace not mine....
As far as the communication was concerned...that it what he said to me at BD and has continued to say over the past 12 months both in letters to me and verbally - that "if we had communicated better and he had told me the problems this would never have happened"..... MLC is still very difficult for me to grasp as far as things he said to me.....what was MLC and what wasn't if you know what I mean? There had to be elements of truth in everything he said...
Love Fox
xxx
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We MUST forgive in order to move forward. With an MLCer, in an ongoing affair, this is soooo difficult. It requires constant effort.
Even after the adultery ends, and they want to come home, the LBSer will not see much true remose for awhile. My H has acknowledged that he has treated me unforgivably, that his treatment of me is inexcusable. BUT, there is no remorse. he is justified. He is a victim of circumstance. Can I forgive that? Yes. Will I accept more of that back into my life without seeing remorse/regret? No. Trust IS a whole different issue, and not needed for me to move forward in MY life.
Some specifics even have to be set aside for later, much later. For now, beating them (and you) over the head with the destruction they are causing will only thicken the distortion of the MLC goggles (kinda like beer goggles I think ::), it will not awaken them. Guilt is a glue which the MLCer uses to cement them in Replay. They are victims and do not accept guilt, avoiding and rejecting it in all kinds of distorted thinking patterns. It puddles around their feet. Do not ask for acknowledgement of their destructive behavior now. Accept they will see it someday and you will have your due. For today, work forward. Otherwise, you will stay stuck in the mire with them. You can forgive without being asked, without acknowledegement. Forgive, they know not what they do. Forgive, it is FOR YOU. If/when the MLCer returns to the marriage, you can then hash out all the details, look for remorse, hear the words "Please forgive me", for this is trust-building, and not necessary for forgiveness.
My most difficult thing to forgive has been my H's treatment of our kids. I cannot imagine HOW he could possibly, neglect them, abuse them, and see himself a victim of the children. I have been dealing with his negativity directed at our kids long before BD. They have borne the brunt of Monster.
For example, The summer of '05, H stayed home from our beach vacation. When we returned, he had set up the den as an office for the kids with new laptops printers, desk organizers, etc. It was awesome. As the summer went on, H would yell and stomp about the amount of time the kids were spending on the computers. he thought they should go play and explore in the desert like he did as a kid...in the 120 degree sun :o.
This was the beginning of his irrational expectations, and our "communication issues". Most MLCers will cite a "lack of communication" as the issue that broke the marriage. But how can we accept that when they are so irrational.
Over the next 3 years, leading up to BD, his abuse of the kids escalated. He felt justified in Yelling and bullying them all the time. I was dancing around, stepping in between them, accepting blame for being a bad mom, and so on. This "dance" culminated in DS who was 12 at the time, called 911 after a fight with h. They were home alone on a Friday nite, H was raging at DS to get off the computer, picking him up and tossing him across the room, riping his shirt, and scaring the bejeezus out of him. H still blames DS for trying to have him arrested and has "trust issues" with him. :o :o :o
Yes H, 'we' have communication issues!
I did evaluate my own communication style (an ongoing activity of mine as i work on my self!) Two books that are helping me are "The new rules of marriage" by Terry Real, and "Hold me tight" by Sue Johnson.
Forgiving and getting past your anger is an ongoing effort. Otherwise you will be stuck right along side of your MLCer.
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Excellent post LGO and thank you - I agree.
My main problem also is the feelings of acute anger at H for his treatment of our Son...he is 28 not a child I know...but he feels rejected all because he was there for his Mother....His Father actually told him to "look after me" he has done JUST THAT and H has held it against him.... He is meeting his father for the very first time since 29 April.... so we shall see what happens....I cannot believe that he will accept any blame at all....his last awful email (unless dictated by others) shows that he is still deep in Replay and lashing out with blame and guilt everywhere apart from himself! Even my fault he had to leave his last job as I made him staying intolerable because his Manager called me and I spoke to him???? he can't see the reason his Manager called me in the first place was his irrational behaviour ::)
Love and hugs
Foxy xxx
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Fox
I cannot believe that he will accept any blame at all
No H won't. He is deep in replay and still using you and S to justify where he is. It is all about what is done to him and not about what he needs to look at inside. He is a long way yet from turning from blaming you. Please don't expect that at this time as you set yourself up to fail.
lashing out with blame and guilt everywhere apart from himself!
Reread RCR article on replay and the running behaviours. This ^ ^ is typical MLC behaviour and shouldn't surprise you any more. There will be more of this yet. He is deep in replay and very happy!!!!! :-\ :-\ Eventually he will wake up. But move forward with your life and stop watching him. He is holding you back and in turn you are potentially holding him back.
As OP says you can't shorten the journey but you can make it longer.
xx
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I have read this before but just wanted to post it for those who haven’t xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
Why Husbands Allow The Other Woman Or Mistress To Have A Hold On Them While They Are Cheating Or Having An Affaiir
Many wives worry that their husbands are having an epic love affair with their soul mate and therefore, the wife just can not compete. Well, the husband and the other woman can certainly feel that this is true at the time. And the reasons for this are pretty straightforward. Believing that they have something so special that this justifies lying and cheating is in their best interest. They have to build the relationship up to the highest heights in order to justify it. Because if you risked your family and acted downright foolish over a relationship or a person that was nothing special, then what does that say about you?
So you see, he needs to believe that she is worth every risk, every embarrassing act or behavior, and every compromise, especially at first. But that doesn't mean that he is always going to feel this way or that he will never come to his senses. Over time, sometimes even the most stubborn man can't deny the obvious. Often the other woman will show her true colors or her true motivations and as the freshness wears off of the relationship, which is when the jig is up.
Understand That The Power That She Thinks She Has Over Him Will Often Fade With Time: I get how hurtful and frustrating it is to watch while your husband makes a mockery of your marriage. He's often acting like a 17 year old teenager who is getting his first taste of his sexuality. Even if every one is laughing behind his back, he just can't see it at the time.
The thing is, she might be offering an intense physical relationship, a supposed emotional connection, or something exciting and new in the early days, but she can't possibly keep this up. Time will make this relationship familiar in the end. That is inevitable. And when the relationship becomes familiar and when she starts to make demands, that is usually when her hold over him will begin to slip just a little. He no longer feels so young, carefree, or alive when he is with her and so he has no incentive to continue to risk everything.
How you handle the situation when her hold over him ends is up to you. Perhaps you might decide that she can have him. Or perhaps you are still very invested in your marriage or your family and are just glad that he comes to his senses when he eventually does.
Either way, you can often take comfort in the fact that it's often not a question of if this hold over your husband will fade, it's a question of when. That's not to say that there are no couples who start their relationship as cheaters who end up with a lasting or real relationship. Some go on to marry the "other woman" but this group is very rare and in the minority. Most of the time, her hold over him ends as soon as the newness or the forbidden nature of the relationship ends. This is usually also around the time that she starts to let down her guard a little bit and begins to make demands or backs off of the "no strings attached" stance that many other women attempt in the beginning.
So to answer the questions posed, there's not always an easy explanation for the hold she has over him. It often has to do with the promise of a forbidden and intense relationship which makes him feel younger, stronger, and more desirable. Unfortunately for him, these things are fleeting and are destined to fade and fail with time. I know that this may not make you feel better right this second, but I'll bet it will make you feel a little better when it actually does happen and you feel quite vindicated in the end.
Source: http://ezinearticles.com/?Why-Does-My-Husbands-Mistress-Have-So-Much-Power-Over-Him?&id=6531521 (http://ezinearticles.com/?Why-Does-My-Husbands-Mistress-Have-So-Much-Power-Over-Him?&id=6531521)
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I wonder how the MLC and power of the OW is affected when there is an OC. She will be the mother of his child, forever connected. Looking back at his previous life probably would seem impossible considering the increased damage of an OC. Seems that even if reality hits, the MLCer would almost have to continue with the new life to justify the insanity.
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I wonder how the MLC and power of the OW is affected when there is an OC. She will be the mother of his child, forever connected. Looking back at his previous life probably would seem impossible considering the increased damage of an OC. Seems that even if reality hits, the MLCer would almost have to continue with the new life to justify the insanity.
I knwo a man that married OW and had a couple of children with her. After two years he was divorced and wanted to be back with his fists wife, they have a daughter, but she had already remarried. So, they will not always want to continue the new life. But some I guess wil.
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http://haleyseibel.com/
This is how one person proved it.
Not my style but I will post it for anyone's enjoyment
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While confronting the OW seems to be an issue that often leads them to be together more, I sense that OM tends to be more frightened by confrontation than OW is. Just my hunch.
Since confrontation is not recommended, I suggest the following actions:
1. Sending a official lab diagnosis of H's herpes to OW address
2. Sending a subscription in your H's name of Hustler or Beautiful Naked Drwarves that are into Bondage to Ow's house. "Hey, I am just forwarding H's best mag to you house.
3. Giving OW's address to an ultra conservative religious group as your recommendation for becoming a new member. This is really good if the group feels that all adultery should be punished by stoning.
4. Putting a picture of ow's car and phone number on Craig"s list and selling the car for $10.00
5. Putting OW on Craig's list for ten dollars. Brings ow in contact with lots of options......LOL
Okay, I don't subscribe to contacting ow or really making om/ow and issue by making them real to you. One honest thing my w told me about om was "if it wasn't him, it would be someone else". If you push ow#1 away, he will find ow #2.... the journey will continue and the escape and avoidance is a process that you can not stop.
(((Hugs))
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OP,
All I can say is...OMG!
That website is priceless!
L
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That website is PRICELESS :P
OMG I wish I had the guts to make up a website like that!!!!
Lots of love
Foxy xxx
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Hi,
I think if we ever want to have a chance in reconciliating that we need to able to forgive. this is part of the healing we need to do. I am not saying this is easy. As LGO says it takes an enormous effort if the MLC is in an ongoing R with OW. But I have no intention to play the victim, because then apart from the ongoing pain I make myself weak and bitter, full of resentment and I will not do this to myself. for me the way to go is practising forgiveness, trying to accept that this has nothing to do with me and having faith that my H is strong enough to come through this.
Sorry, but I hate the word adultery. For me using that word makes that I am judging and releasing judgment seems to me is the first step to forgiveness and letting go.
I think in time the remorse will be there, but it will need a lot more patience from my side
I believe Remorse will show itself in small actions and gestures, not in big words. i need to live it, feel it, see that actions and words match again, I need to see a H being at ease and enjoying the small things of every day life.
Do not know when this will happen, if ever, because for now H is still running
Take care
E
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I have a recurring burning desire to contact my exH's OW(new wife)'s exH. When I first saw my attorney, he asked me if I was going to--he said most people do, and he didn't care one way or the other, but he wanted me to let him know if I did.
Has anyone here ever done it or know anyone who has? The urge comes and goes periodically and it would be really easy--e-mail and all... I know all the reasons not to, but I just can't help wondering... This week the desire comes from the fact that my kids have talked about him a lot lately and even my neighbors said that exH likes to talk about what a "douchebag" he is. When I asked S14 to explain what makes him that, he said, well, he messes up the custody schedule, expects OW to change her plans when he has a change of plans, makes changes at the last minute, and a bunch of other common things, and I started laughing. While I do refrain from badmouthing their father most of the time, I could not resist, and said, "well by that definition, your father is the biggest douchebag there is..." But I did follow that up by explaining that those actions do not a douchebag make--that is just poor planning and organization and unfortunately, no offense, but most dudes suck at that stuff because mostly moms do it, and besides it's hard...
I want to call him, I want to know if I think he's a douchebag... I know I shouldn't and I won't, but has anyone else and did you learn anything? Just curious...
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I've read some stories about 'the Ex's' getting together starting relationships...especially if he's also an LBS.
what reason will you give for calling him though? what will you say? I mean, you can't call him and ask him if he's really a dbag.
We are bad at planning and organization...and cooking, and cleaning, and multi-tasking, and and and...
Nobody kills spiders better than me though! ;D
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Hi LL
I've often thought of doing this too. Just interested in getting his view of the situation from the other side - so to speak. I'm pretty sure OW is in MLC as well as my ex but as I have no idea what she was like before and I have never met her, I don't know if her character has changed.
I do know OW spun my ex the usual story of how her H mistreated her but also that he came straight over to get her when my ex dumped her (briefly) in February. No idea if her divorce has gone through yet but I guess it has given that they are buying an expensive house and my ex certainly doesn't have that kind of money (unless he's had a load of money stashed away all these years that he never told me about ::).
Just keep holding back though, as I'm not sure that it would help things if he told OW I had contacted him.
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LL ,
My sister whose H returned after 18 months back in Jan 2009
told her the other day that he wants to call his OWs H and apologize :o :o :o. His OW had divorced him. My sister and her H never got divorced. One day he woke up recently and said" I saw that guy on the street the other day and I felt like apologizing."
My sister was like :o :o :o Ok Dear whatever makes you feel better. 8)
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S4M, So you don't think,
"Hey Ken, you don't know me but my ex just married your ex and he says you're a douchebag, so I just wanted to have a little chat so I could figure out for myself if he really is a superhero out to save the world one fair maiden at a time, or if, in fact, HE IS THE DOUCHEBAG..." would be a good pickup line?
MB, My friend who had an early MLC, married OW who also left her H said her exH THANKED him everytime they did the kid swap--he finally divorced her, she is a BPD/alcoholic, whackjob, and the signs were there from the get-go. As a woman said on another MLC site--I thank OW every day for taking out my trash...
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No. Both OW1 & OW2 were single.
Lisa, I don't think it is a good idea to contact your hunband's new wife/OW exhusband. Even if he was still her husband it would not be a goog idea. You need to stear clear of whatever issue OW has with her exhusband. You would not like him to contact you, would you? Regardless if it was to know if you're a douchebag or a princess.
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That's just it Anne, I would love for him to contact me, then I could talk to him and not take the blame for it! I won't do it, I know I have to stay out, but it kills me sometimes, the curiousity...
I would love to talk to him because then he would know I am a nice person and his wife stole a father. In some ways it might make him feel better. I would love to know that he is a nice guy and she is in MLC--or that she is an evil wench and she is going to take my exH for the ride of his life--not that I wish that, but it would be good to know before I send my kids there... Or maybe he is rotten, then I might understand how she could be so needy--so many questions, not to mention H won't even tell me practical stuff. I would love to know their custody schedule so I could have a better idea when H might come back to see his kids... See what I mean, so many things he could tell me...
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Lisa, Lisa, Lisa... 8)
Now and then we all have this feelings of wanting to talk to the OP or the OP spouse and let them know they took a great husband/wife father/mother. But, if to the OP, it will only bring more anger towards us. And the OP couldn't care less about us, so just a waste of time and energy. If to the OP Spouse, well, maybe they are as hurt as we are and really don't need, or want, to ear about their exspouse OP.
Many years ago my uncle had an OW. It was no MLC, just a regular affair. Her husband come round here to talk to my aunt. My aunt did not wanted to talk to him. She said my husband is my business, your wife, yours. For the record, uncle remained with OW till this day, aunt does not blame OW, family gets along fine with OW. That, given that was 35 years ago, is no longer OW but XDFGG uncle's LLLLwife.
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Well Lisa, if you really want to call my wife you can, but I can tell you already she is in MLC! :) :) :)
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Ohhhh LL, thank you for bringing this up. It's something I very much want to do. To contact the OW's now ex-H, however, would be self-sabotage on a massive scale, as you'll see from my story.
My H met OW in another state 300 miles from where we live. He was doing periodic work there for over a 2 year period. He met her (so he tells me) standing in line to attend a lecture on spirituality at a university!
At the time they met (2.5 years ago) OW was on her second marriage which she'd been in for 15 years. Her ex-H's in a prestigious profession in the large metro area where she's lived, I think, most of her life.
It was her 2nd marriage. She and her ex-H had no children. She does have, however, two grown sons by her 1st H.
(BTW, this is all info my H told me immediately after BD 8 months ago. We've not spoken about any of this since then. I ask him NO questions. So, I tell myself I have to take all of this info with a grain of salt. God knows what the truth is.)
H & OW's EA became a PA two years ago. Coincidentally,(?) she left her H about the same time (summer of 2009) and filed soon after for divorce.
According to my H, her then H knew nothing about him. My H and OW only "dated" for 6 months before she left her H, moving into an apartment.
Since my H wasn't in her social circle, or a work colleague, or anybody her then H knew about, it was easy for OW and my H to keep their A clandestine. My H had his own apartment about 20 miles from the large city where she lived so I'm assuming secrecy was easy.
At BD, 8 months ago, OW had been living in her apartment for 18 months in her home state, with my H visiting her regularly. She was in the final stages of her divorce and simply waiting for the decree. (According to my H, her D became final several weeks after she moved to our state in Jan.)
When, at BD, I asked my H what her last name was he wouldn't tell me. He said it was because in the state OW was receiving her divorce she could not, by law, co-habitate with anyone for 4 years (the length of time she was going to receive a generous alimony from her ex-H.)
In other words, if her husband found out she was living with my H, she would lose her alimony. And my H was planning for her to immediately move to our state and for the two of them to live together on his boat. (Which they've been doing since Jan.)
My H was very worried about this as her alimony was the only income she had. She's disabled due to a chronic neurological condition and cannot work. My H told me she also received disability.
When he told me all this I was worried OW's soon-to-be-ex-H would find out, too! I did not want my H using his money to support this woman! (Also, if she had her own income I reasoned it would be easier for her to "move on" when the time came, which, then, I had high hopes would be sooner rather than later. I know better now.)
When OW moved to our state she and my H immediately moved to his sister's waterfront house 90 miles from where we lived and moored H's boat at his sister's pier. Conveniently, his sister's home is also a licensed B & B, so, if anyone gets suspicious, OW can claim she's "staying" at the B & B!
I know this is bizarre and I'm not sure how much of it I believe, but I do believe my H was truly afraid OW's H would discover their relationship and OW would lose her alimony.
If I was willing to hire a PI, I'm sure I could find out her last name and therefore contact her ex-H. Her ex-H's profession is such that he'd be easy to locate.
I've tried looking for a divorce notice in the city newspaper where she and her ex-H lived but all I know is her first name and, besides, it seems large city newspapers don't publish divorce notices anymore.
She and my H recently bought (and therefore had to get titled) a boat in our state. According to my H, she bought the boat with her money (that's what he told our D.) If that's so, her name would be on the boat title and I bet she also, as part of her spider's web, put my H's name on the title, too. (After all it's now their home sweet home.) A PI could find the title in an afternoon's work.
Truth is though, I don't think it's safe for me to know her last name because the temptation to contact her ex-H is so strong. If I contacted him it wouldn't help me at all (except having the satisfaction of causing her and my H pain) and would likely result in OW losing her income.
(Although, I am puzzled that her ex-H hasn't found out her situation by now. Either she did a very good job of disappearing or her ex is involved with someone else and could care less. It does seem, however, that if there was a hope he could stop legitimately paying alimony, he'd try to do that. It is puzzling and, frankly, doesn't add up to me.)
Since my H doesn't have any income right now either, it would be a mess. And if she loses her income what will she live on? My H's guilt about her and need to "protect" her would really go into high gear.
Besides, the chance of my H finding out that I did it are high. Who else would care enough to go to the trouble? And he would be outraged at me. I don't think it would help my hope of reconciliation one bit and would likely seriously damage it.
So, that's why I don't try to find out her last name and why, even if I knew it, I wouldn't contact her ex-H.
If I knew for certain that her ex-H knew about my H and the A, I WOULD contact him. Simply because I'd like to hear his side of the story. I'm sure that, like me, he's been vilified and is probably a decent man.
That's my soap opera! Hope it makes sense. (Actually, as I reread this, it doesn't, but that is what I know!)
TMHP
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TMHP, If you ever really want all that info, YOU can find it. Should I not tell you how? If you ever need to, I can help you. And that's a good story, sorry, too bad it's yours, but it sounds like a bad soap opera... I did more cyber-sleuthing than I should be proud to admit, but it used to be my job to track down dual diagnosed homeless men, so I know my way around public records, and my curiousity has gotten the best of me. I bet I know more about OW and OW's exH than my H does! But in your case, since OW and exH have no kids, it would not seem odd that he does not care where she is. I have a friend who just divorced her second H and got a HUGE amount of alimony--if exH cares and has the means, he will likely have her investigated, so she could end up losing that anyway... I see what you mean though, if I knew her name, I couldn't stop myself. My H did not tell me OWs name, I only knew her first name and by process of elimination I figured it out, their professional community is pretty small.
I sometimes even get the urge to call her parents--you know to ask them if they know that their daughter likely stole two husbands... I am not going to do it, but it's like the urge to knock out that bottom watermelon...
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I'll share this story with you all so that you can see it from the OP's spouses view.
A dear friend, Male, found out his wife was cheating on him. The OM's wife contacted my friend. She began yelling at him, crying, etc. My friend was feeling low enough as it was, and didn't need the additional burden of the OM wife. It was not an MLC, but none the less, my friend told me this story at a time when I thought about contacting the OW's spouse to illustrate why I should not. You are hurting some one that may not deserve to be hurt.
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I'll share this story with you all so that you can see it from the OP's spouses view.
You are hurting some one that may not deserve to be hurt.
Exactly. And Lisa, I know it hurts, but if your husband has married OW she is now his wife. No one wants an ex (cheated upon or not) messing into our life. Let alone the OP spouse. This goes to you as well, TMHP. What good would come of you hiring a PI to find that woman name? And, as you've said it, if she looses her alimony she is gonna have to live on your husband's money. Besides, if what MLCers do to us is cruel, nasty terrible and we don't like it, why should we go and do it to someone else, even if that someone else is OW/OM?
an eye for an eye and a tooth for a tooth only brings more anger, resentment and pain. Including to the LBS. I don't think tjat is what standing is about.
Lisa, if I'm not mistaken you are no longer standing. But it looks like you are still attached to your exhusband. Standing or not, it will only firebacks at you if you get in touch with OW exhusband.
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Anne, all your points are excellent. And true.
That's why I haven't hired a PI.
But I can dream can't I? ;D
TMHP
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Yes, TMHP, you can dream! ;D
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OP contacted me to reveal the affair...they thought I was clueless and innocent to the whole thing...hehehhehe...like they were telling me something I didn't know....anyway....OP started texting me a lot and I could tell it was starting to get into me being a shoulder to cry on and I don't know...I didn't want to go there...I mean I think you need firm boundaries because the OP is hurting bad and may not be wise to what is going on. I did contact him a few times over key events like the pregnancy but always bussinesslike short and sweet. It's just something that could backfire and trigger you like crazy...best to just leave it and detach from the whole sitch..
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Thanks Bugs, That's what I wanted to know, just if anyone has done it and what happened--if they gained any insight.
And Anne, don't worry I said I am not going to do it! All my sleuthing is old, but remember she is not just his new wife, she is the step mother of my kids and my H has told me NOTHING about her, and will tell me nothing about his life with her and I do not ask my kids because I will not put them in a weird position. But, that leaves me in a weird place--he won't even tell me their travel itineraries, or his work schedule--he has never even told me where he lives and he expects me to send my kids there. I know you don't have kids, but can you imagine putting your kids on a place and not knowing where they will be?
Right now it would really make my life a lot easier if I knew his wife and her exH's custody schedule so I could better prepare my life--because I pretty much figured out that he does not come to visit his kids unless she has hers, but he won't tell me that, and so in my frustration, I thought about just calling the only other person who would know. I am not overly attached to their life, but I would like to be better attached to mine and take away his power to turn my life upside down every other week.
And like TMHP, I am dreaming, but it is a very nice dream for me--a proper custody schedule, even if it's only a guess would be so nice...
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Lisa you are trying to FIX this for him, I know you are saying it is for you but maybe you need some sort of boundary.
If he does not want to play by your game or your schedule make it his problem.
Not yours.
The two of you are using the kids as weapons.
Maybe someone else will see this differently than me and I don't have these same issues so maybe someone else can give you better advice.
But it does seem that way to me, calling the OW ex H is just controlling.
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I can accuse him of doing a lot of things wrong, but he is not using our kids as weapons, he is just addled, and it would be nice to talk to a sane person who knows stuff that affects my kids.
And how many times do I have to say I am not going to call the OP's exH, I really am not, it was just a nice thought--like buying a lottery ticket, I am not trying to justify an action I plan to take, just telling you what I might get if I won the lottery. I don't buy lottery tickets either, I am not a gambler--I know it could end badly, but I just wanted to know if anyone had done it, my lawyer says most people do, but no one here has ever talked about it. That's it, sorry for bringing it up.
And about my sitch--even in the best of times, H was a poor planner, calling me at least five times a day to confirm and reconfirm even the simplest things--like what time to pick up the kids from school--the same time as every day the last four years, hon... He is the stereotypical absent minded professor. I have learned that in his current state, he is even worse, and he is secretive, and I think really just confused, so any discussions about anything end up being a fight. We had an online argument for two weeks because he would not/could not, I have no idea, tell me what day he was leaving with the kids for vacation--am I out of line, I wanted to plan MY vacation, and that was all I wanted "what day are you planning to leave and return?" I did not ask for an itinerary or details, nothing, I generally trust him, but I could show you the pages of spew I got in return, but for two weeks, no date... And at the end of it, I got an "I thought I told you..." He's crazy AND a poor planner...
I have learned to just go with it and not pick up the rope. I bend when I can, hold firm when I can't, but I do dig for as much info as I can to protect and prepare myself and so I can have fewer of those arguments. OP, I asked him for an academic calendar so I would know when his breaks and holidays are, and that turned into a fight, well I can get it myself, but I felt like it was only right to ask, so I wasn't digging in stuff he considers none of my business. And he changes the schedule all the time, again this week, once again screwing up the kids' plans... Remember, we think he may be in MLC... Do you know how hard it is to co-parent with a sane person you actually get along with--I know a couple people who do it, and it's hard even in the best situation, but with a crazy man living halfway across the country, it's, well crazy. So my dream of an ally is a good one for me, someone who will tell me where my kids are and when they are coming home. But I am not going to do it, I promise, and I don't recommend it for anyone else, I just wanted to know if anyone already had...
So I am not sure what you think I am trying to fix for him, is this really about him? I gave up trying to fix him 18 years ago, I COMPENSATED, and I still seem to have to do that, if anyone knows another way, I am game, I have tried every way I know. I can try legal action, but that would be expensive and useless--he really just can't do it, and I don't know why, he does his job, so it is not an ability thing, it is a motivation thing and he's always been this way, I can't fix him, but I do still have to live with it.
After proofing this, I realized that someone responded to another of my posts that my H was not detached. And it is only now I think that may be true. That he is using my kids not as weapons but as a way to still control me, to maintain that attachment. Well, that was an eye opener, but I don't know what to do with that. I guess it makes sense, I always thought that what he wanted was me and his family and her on the side, but I wouldn't go for it, I guess he can't stop trying. But it really doesn't matter, can I even try to understand that--does anyone?
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I realized that someone responded to another of my posts that my H was not detached. And it is only now I think that may be true. That he is using my kids not as weapons but as a way to still control me, to maintain that attachment. Well, that was an eye opener, but I don't know what to do with that. I guess it makes sense, I always thought that what he wanted was me and his family and her on the side, but I wouldn't go for it, I guess he can't stop trying. But it really doesn't matter, can I even try to understand that--does anyone?
Ok I totally agree that he is trying to use the children as a way to control you and stay attached.
That is what I meant by using them as weapons but I am not always as eloquent as I should be.
Don't feel bad about having this topic, I think that some good may come out of it.
I said that I don't know the complete answer but discussing it might bring more clarity to the sich.
Your description of him is MLC to the MAX and I completely understand your frustration with dealing with a crazy, controlling person.
It is at best difficult.
There needs to be some sort of boundary, I am not really sure I know more than that.
Maybe someone else can help you out with some ideas.
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They DEFINITELY use the kids to stay attached to the LBS....I completely agree....because when the drama dies down...as they become closer with OP well the need more drama fuel...this is my .02 cents....so eventually there has to be some sort of letting go with the kids....of course you could never detach about your kids...but you do have to get to a point where you accept your spouse as DEAD and be satisfied that they are safe in his care and be the best mom you can be when your with them...TAKE CARE OF YOU LIKE crazy when they are gone...I don't have teenagers so I know that in some ways it's trickier with them but basically your MLCer is going to push your buttons using the kids....ESPECIALLY if you are independant...not causing much drama....not totally depressed....getting a Life because they are JEALOUS too....really...so they lash out with the kids often..but they are smart too....so be aware and steer clear and let him fall into his pit...or as LG likes to say "swirl in the toilet bowl". Rest assured that the more he bothers you....the more his life probably s***s on the other end...and in MLC his life with other woman being sh**y doesn't reveal anything about his process but at least you know and you can move on.
Oh I read a great article in a literary magazine for mamas. (let me know if you want the name) and it was about single mothers and the stigma of that label. The author ended a quote saying....
"I'm a good mother...whether I'm married or not".....it's a very simple idea but it speaks VOLUMES about the type of healing needed as a mama whose traveling the crisis. IT made so much sense. You are the same mother you always were....now you just have an additional child... ::) :o ;D
HUGS
BUGS
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IT made so much sense. You are the same mother you always were....now you just have an additional child...
But Bugs, I didn't ask for that other one, and I want to give him back! We could market both of ours as a package deal--"Two for one crazy exH's, free to a bad home (preferably on a small island with no internet in the middle of the Atlantic, or Arctic) we'll pay $1000 S&H and all travel expenses, no refunds or exchanges." I'm gonna go put it on Craig's List...
S$%^ this week I was ready to sell the other two into slavery, so no, the third one I can definitely live without. And my kids are in the game stage now--oh you won't buy it, OW will (and she does, or he does and let's them think it's her), I hate you, I'm moving in with Dad... MLC Olympics, my exH is aiming for the gold in Teen Manipulation...
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LL,
How about Alcatraz? Small island, bad accommodations, and probably no internet there!
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LL,
How about Alcatraz? Small island, bad accommodations, and probably no internet there!
Too close, somewhere closer to the Bahamas--the Bermuda Triangle, hurricane and big nasty bug territory, or frozen tundra and hungry bears--you know, so they don't get bored! Like I obviously am today, went to be early, woke up early and can't run til 9, so killing a lot of time, quietly...
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IT made so much sense. You are the same mother you always were....now you just have an additional child...
But Bugs, I didn't ask for that other one, and I want to give him back! We could market both of ours as a package deal--"Two for one crazy exH's, free to a bad home (preferably on a small island with no internet in the middle of the Atlantic, or Arctic) we'll pay $1000 S&H and all travel expenses, no refunds or exchanges." I'm gonna go put it on Craig's List...
S$%^ this week I was ready to sell the other two into slavery, so no, the third one I can definitely live without. And my kids are in the game stage now--oh you won't buy it, OW will (and she does, or he does and let's them think it's her), I hate you, I'm moving in with Dad... MLC Olympics, my exH is aiming for the gold in Teen Manipulation...
OW already bought him...as she is doing with your kids...so you don't need to do anything there. I'm at a point in the crisis where I'm glad he is somebody else's to handle.
In terms of your teens just remember the strategies you use with H and apply them to your teens. The stuff going on with your teens is normal...they are testing your love and teens ALREADY do that to the extreme....add a father whose abandoned them on top of that. They are going to project like crazy...keep your cool...and say
I'm sorry you are feeling so angry.....
I'm sorry you feel like going to live with your father will solve your problems.
I know it s***s but someone has to be the steady one....and you'll be better off for it....this will get worse before better....it's a given in MLC...they go to the depths..
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Interesting - thanks for sharing that AnneJ
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Thank you for the reality check, WGH and AnneJ! I think I have always known that reality would set in eventually. My biggest concern was if my MLCer would do too much damage before clearing the tunnel for reconciliation. And he has - OC born this week. I wonder if there is any information here about the effect an OC has on a MLCer.
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Brand new - I'm so sorry for what you are having to deal with - that must be so hard.
I have no idea - but if my MLCer is anything to go by - I can't imagine it being easy for them.
Imagine the noise, lack of sleep, responsibility, demands on their 'play time' - not exactly what they usually have in mind for REPLAY.
I'm sure there are those that have experienced this though and can shed some light for you
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Thanks kikki (and WGH for allowing a little t/j) - You are right. An OC is pretty far from "youthful running, escape and avoid, and fantasy island with the OW." I would love the karma bus and reality check for him, but still grieving the "real" end of my marriage. The OC issue is my dealbreaker.
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I don't know if what my H says is true but he tells me that OW is just an escape for him from his problems. He told me he does not want to move in with her and so he lives at his mothers. He also told me it won't work between them. So it does not seem OW has that amount of power or does she?
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The further they go into the tunnel the more power she seems to be able to exert. I remember Dearheart at first not caring at all how she felt but as he went in deeper she controlled him more and more.
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Umare
In the early stages we can get a lot of clarity about what they feel etc. But Shantilly is right. The further they go into the tunnel the thicker the fog becomes and those moments of clarity disappear. The OW then gets more power over our H because he will be living his 'happy' life.
Carry on as you are. Listen and validate but be prepared for him to become more distant.
xx
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Umare, my husband said the EXACT same things, but not in the beginning... then she was just so wonderful and made his eyes sparkle... DISGUSTING!! NOW, he says he doesn't know why he goes to her.... says maybe it's her youth..... can't figure it out... doesn't like her looks, her personality, her ethnicity, her family, her friends, her personality, her "mind" (says she's not a "deep thinker" :o well, that makes two of them, LOL!!) hates her tone of voice, says she can't and won't cook, tells me she's a terrible Mother and he can hardly stand to watch her "non-parenting" but that she represents "freedom" to him... :o :o :o :o :o
The MLCer is talking out of both sides of his mouth... confusion reigns supreme.... he told me he feels TRAPPED when he's with her... like he can't leave.... but wait, didn't you just say she represented "freedom" to you? Says he wants to leave almost as soon as he gets there.... texts me from her lair about how he wishes he was with me and the kids... but won't just get in the car and LEAVE... :o :o :o though he has done that to us several times.... started out here "for the weekend" then all of a sudden he has to "go to Toronto" ;D ;D ;D ;D
OW has a powerful hold and pull on him, but it's mostly guilt.... not sure why they don't feel the SAME degree of guilt for the things they do to us.... perhaps it's because SHE is crying, begging, pleading, demanding and needy and he's trying like all get out to appease her. Emotional blackmail. He lets her get away with things we would NEVER have been allowed...
I agree that her hold gets stronger the further in the tunnel, but it's not on his heart.... it's emotional blackmail.
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The further they go into the tunnel the more power she seems to be able to exert. I remember Dearheart at first not caring at all how she felt but as he went in deeper she controlled him more and more.
I'm starting to see this with my husband, even if he is a vanisher. Just one thing you pick here and another there.
Lucky, the OW/OM may have more and more power over the MLCer as they go further into the tunnerl, but they have no power over the LBS. Unless, of course, we allow them such power.
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LG. What exactly is emotional blackmail? And if they hate pressure why do they stay around it?
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MammaBear, a lot of people use emotional blackmail..... it goes like this "I would never have moved in with you if I thought you were going to stay with your wife! Now my daughter is attached to you and she can't take the heartache of losing you.....I can't afford this apartment you got for us all by myself, so now I have to somehow come up with first, last and a deposit for a new place and I can't afford that.... I've invested two years of my life with you when I could have been with an unmarried man, but YOU LED ME ON and told me you loved me, so I stayed with you and sacrificed EVERYTHING for you..... you are a piece of sh**!"
An example of PARENTAL emotional blackmail would be "How come you never call your Mother? I carried you for nine months and got hemorrhoids and you never think of me...." Think of the movie "Psycho".... ;D ;D ;D
They hate pressure, but they are like a trapped monkey.... you know how they trap monkeys? They put something in a trap that the monkey grabs onto.... when he tries to remove it from the trap, his fisted paw won't fit back through the opening.... instead of simply letting go of the object in the trap to remove his paw and escape, he is stuck and easily caught. And monkeys are pretty smart!
You will discover all sorts of crazy things your husband will put up with regarding OW.... they throw everything away to be with this person... all their eggs of happiness in this basket, that they can't give up!! In the book "Surprised by Love" Dr. Jay describes how his relationship with his "classy, smart, businesswoman (stripper, escort) girlfriend was falling apart and she was using emotional blackmail to control him and he wrote her a long letter basically begging and pleading with HER and suggesting they need COUPLES COUNSELING!!! :o :o Can you even imagine???? And this man is a THERAPIST!!! Talk about not seeing the forrest for the trees!!
That gets me every time.... suggesting counseling for you and your girlfriend.... meanwhile, you're still married!! Explain THAT one to your therapist, hahahaha! Husband: "Hi! We're here to try and save our relationship!" counselor: "Oh, and are you married?" husband: "Yes, but not to her..."
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You will discover all sorts of crazy things your husband will put up with regarding OW.... they throw everything away to be with this person... all their eggs of happiness in this basket, that they can't give up!!
In the book "Surprised by Love" Dr. Jay describes how his relationship with his "classy, smart, businesswoman (stripper, escort) girlfriend was falling apart and she was using emotional blackmail to control him and he wrote her a long letter basically begging and pleading with HER and suggesting they need COUPLES COUNSELING!!! :o :o Can you even imagine???? And this man is a THERAPIST!!! Talk about not seeing the forrest for the trees!!
That gets me every time.... suggesting counseling for you and your girlfriend.... meanwhile, you're still married!! Explain THAT one to your therapist, hahahaha! Husband: "Hi! We're here to try and save our relationship!" counselor: "Oh, and are you married?" husband: "Yes, but not to her..."
Funny. They don't mind with whatever OW/OM asks of them, makes them do, put up with really, really crazy stuff. But they would not tolerated 99% of what they put up with the other person.
ahahahahahahahahah! The story of the therapist girlfriend suggesting they need couples couseling is hilarious. But who are these OW/OM they get? They also seam to be total nuts. And not all of them are MLCers themselves.
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Yes,
My H told his mum (before he stopped talking to her) he was going to get counselling so this relationship with OW would work. Pity he didn't want that for us and his kids ::) ??? ::) ???
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mine said repeatedly that ow is difficult to life with, but he will try very hard to make the relationship work.
he also said that is she leaves he will not chase her,
also that he can not see a future with her
XH married ow 20 years younger with him
there is something definetly wrong with him
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Ya Think? Hi Dollard. Amazing isn't it? I am so glad we have each other to bounce this crap off of. :) That way you can fore-see some activities of hateful confusion and blind ignorance INSTEAD OF ALWAYS BEING BLIND SIDED. It doesn't knock me on my a** if I have seen that behavior in other MLCers prior to my introduction to it. Foresight! Hugs for ya! :)
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I love it when they say that they need to make the relashionship with OW/OM work. That the are trying hard. But going for therapy to save/work on the relashionship with OW/OM, if they are still married is really crazy.
If they are divorced I can get it. "my marriage did not work out, now I need to make this new relashionship work", "and how did you meet", "well, I was married, left everything to be with her/him, she/he is the love of my life..." ::) How romantic! ;D
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Anne J "How did you meet?" My Hs answer would have to be : At a convenience store buying cigarettes. :o :o :o :o :o
Talk about class act! Throw Mamma from the Train...............LOL :o
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If you know, who initiated the breakup after the sordid affair?
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Sorry OP, would you change the poll so there is no end date? I believe I by mistake entered an one-day poll. Thank you, OP.
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Sorry OP, would you change the poll so there is no end date? I believe I by mistake entered an one-day poll. Thank you, OP.
Always testing me, I didn't know I could do that but you should also be able to edit your posts for 90 mins.
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LIW, sorry I did't have an opportunity to add another choice. If I could, I would have added "None of the above - situation is unique".
Aren't they all! :)
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I can only answer regarding the final break-up. H initiated it and took steps to insure she could not contact him again.
I do know she "broke up" on the day I discovered the affair. She was with H when he discovered that I discovered the affair. She was terrified I would contact her or her husband. I'm certain she used this to emotionally manipulate H. I must admit to some evil pleasure knowing that she was concerned about my knowledge and how I would use it. That break up didn't last. I don't know who initiated it the second time H told me it was over. I think it was H based upon things he has since told me. I think OW emotionally manipulated H and pestered him a lot at that time. HB "saw" that, and I saw some evidence of her contacting H shortly after H told me it was done the second time. (she had the nerve to comment on some family vacation photos on H's facebook) I wasn't snooping. It was right there for me to see. I ignored this at that time as that was what I was told to do, and what I decided was the right course.
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My H dumped her about four times so far. She is still calling daily, trying to patch things up. ::) They're both sick
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Once he discovered she had been doing nothing but lying to him about just about everything he slammed the door on her by getting her arrested for property she had stolen; so I think the rose colored glasses came off.
He is now of the mind that it's harder to find "honest women" which is all I have been throughout this nightmare so he finds a great deal of value in that.
After discussing my weakness due to not being able to discuss music with him on a level anymore complicated than I either like or don't like a particuler song . I said to him:
"Honey you know I'm sure there are women out there that could discuss the more complicated aspects of music with you...would you like to go look for one?" He quickly replied "NO WAY.. I'm perfectly happy with where I am now!" We both laughed pretty hard.
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I hope my H remembers that also..that I'm the honest one. He recently has found out xOW may not be what she protrayed. He also told me last week that he is finding out that I'm the best person for him and there isn't much out there. Then the next day he took off again to go bar-hopping and probably never remembers saying it. ::)
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I’m not done yet.
Update: YAY, Haley! You’ve had over 9,000 visits to your webpage. I should probably give credit to our readers from www.midlifecrisismarriageadvocate.com, for sending you over the top yesterday!
Rate this:
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Wow I didn't know I started all of that. RCR posted on this website under "comments" and they gave us a shout out!
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Ready, I love your suggestion list.
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In the news today:
http://au.news.yahoo.com/odd/a/-/odd/10340212/husband-sells-wifes-sat-nav-over-infidelity/#post-comment
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One of my best friends told me that after she had the feeling something was not "right" between her and her husband, she decided to bluff with him to confirm it. She told him she heard rumors because people will talk and that she wished he would just go ahead and admit what it was that he had been doing. Well, not only did he confirm the affair, but he gave her the name of the woman to boot! All the while my friend said that she was thinking, "You are such a MORON!" My friend moved out and waited for two years, thinking her moronic husband would get this MARRIED OW out of his system and come back to his senses and his marriage. They have two daughters together. Anyway, she finally asked him point blank if they were going to work on things or not, and he said he guessed so since he couldn't be with who he "really" wants to be with. That was it for her. She never confronted the OW and I'd say today she's glad she didn't bother w/her.
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This is a question for some of the folks here who've been around awhile and who've read a lot of stories. I'm curious if anyone has an opinion on whether the length of the MLCer's affair effects the eventual outcome of the LBS and MLC relationship.
Do shorter term affairs, say under 18 or 12 months, offer a better chance of reconciliation than those that go on longer, say more than 18 months?
And is there a relationship to whether the affair partners live together and eventual reconciliation?
I don't know where I've read it (I've read so much about infidelity since BD!) but somewhere I read that the longer an extramarital affair lasts, the less likely a couple will reconcile.
Do any of you here have an opinion on that?
My H has been in his affair now for 31 months, getting close to 3 years. For the first 23 months he and OW did not live together full-time. It was a clandestine affair and they only saw each every 6 to 8 weeks or so when my H would be in the city where OW lived (usually for 3 - 5 weeks at a time for his work.) While he was there for those weeks I suspect they lived together at either her apartment or his (although for the first six months of those 23 months she was still living at home with her then H.)
H and OW have been living together full time since BD almost 9 months ago.
So does the fact they've been a couple for such a long time have an impact on our eventual chances of reconciliation or is it irrelevant--or impossible to say?!
Thanks!
TMHP
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From the time Sweetheart's affair became physical he lived either with the alienator or at home--since he was a multiple returner.
The affair lasted for 3.5 years,
As for reconciliation within such circumstances...I think there is a greater likelihood that an LBS will stop Standing, so thre may be fewer reconciliations with longer-term affairs. But that is often not a decision made by the betraying party.
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This article is located here.
http://leejagers.wordpress.com/2006/03/18/after-an-affair/ (http://leejagers.wordpress.com/2006/03/18/after-an-affair/)
Please be careful to only use brief excerpts and reference published works with their url.
Here is the opening to this article.
Reconciling a Marriage After an Affair[/b]
Seven issues of concern to the therapist working toward the reconciliation of a marriage torn by an affair are discussed. They include (1) options for the marriage, (2) ensuring closure of the affair, (3) trust, (4) amount of disclosure by the offender – the term used here to refer to the unfaithful partner, (5) forgiveness, (6) individual issues, and (7) renewing physical intimacy. God’s high view of marriage is set forth as motivation for the Christian therapist to favor reconciliation over other options for the marriage.[/font]
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Hi T.........my h as been with o/w 3 yrs 2 months.....he was a multiple returner of about 8 times the longest time home for 8 months.......until baby was born now hes been gone 7 months and the relationship is still going but plenty of crap going on for them............i think affairs can last longer when they don’t live together because they only see that person for a few hours..............so dont see the real person/persons.... i think the true test comes when they live together full-time and for a longer period.........the fantasy of being together all the time becomes reality and then the flaws/irritations/true colours start to show............the affair people can keep up their pretend persona for a few hours at time...........however the longer their together the harder it becomes to pretend to be perfect xxxxxxxxxxxx
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Since BD, OW1 lasted around 18 months. Ow2 has been around for over 3 years, they live together for about 2 years. He is a vanisher, we no longer have the marital home. So, not sure what kind of outcome this will have.
WGH, my husband's affairs were in reverse, he was not around OW1 all the time and she last less than OW2. he is around OW2 all the time. So, either she is very good keeping her facade or he his totally lost. Or maybe it is really deep, deep love. Who knows? ::)
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Ann did your h finish it with o/w1 or did she finish it maybe if she finished it with your h and he went looking for o/w2 because he was deep in the mlc fog and by then probably too deep to come home so went looking for o/w2..................or she didn’t meet his needs or she became controlling too soon so he scampered off to the next one since he hadn’t sorted out his internal issues yet .........xxxxxxxxx
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WGH, I don't know for sure what happened with husband and the end of OW1 (nor I know how/when it really started). When OW1 was gone I was already back to our home town and my interaction with husband was small. He never told me much about her, and I never asked. I was only ojnce told by a person that it did look like a match made in heaven. My response was "It will not last, also, you've only meets us after he left, so you don't know how we were when we were together not when we started dating".
But, for small clues, I think it was her that finisehd with him. When he left, and for must part of their relashionship, he had is weekend days free. She lived away and could only be with him on the weekend. Given that he had, before she come along, took to DJing, his weekend nights were taken. So, when he left his job and took another one that made him work weekend days, he no longer had any time for her. Most likely she no longer saw the point of being around a man that could not have a moment for her.
He still leads the life he led when OW1 was gone, but OW2, for what I get, likes that partying, DJiing, running around from a place to another like there is no tomorrow (they meet in a club). The little I know about OW1 she was more quiet, mommy type, nice and caring, the sort that wants to rescue the unhappy husband. OW2 is a narcissist, so, she wants to be me, she wants my life. She has created much more problems than OW1.
I think he went after OW2 because, after OW1 a) I was not willing to be his girlfriend and did not want to take part in that crazy life we has leading; b) he had never been alone since he was 17 c) he was (and still is) in deep fog.
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TMHP
Please do not measure your Stand or your M against the 'odds'. Statistics on the topic are misinterpreted all over the place. In MLC there are too many variables that might affect the outcome. You have identified one variable, length of A. There are dozens of others that may interact with that. (length of marriage, education levels of MLCer and LBS, socio-economic level, self-employment, employment status, # of children, age of children, childless, and on, and on) Add to those, the emotional variables ( contact level, strength of defense mechanisms, place on the spectrum of healthy to distorted thinking patterns, types and depth of FOO issues, and so on) Even with a multivariate analysis, I doubt that any ONE would be significant.
As for reconciliation within such circumstances...I think there is a greater likelihood that an LBS will stop Standing, so thre may be fewer reconciliations with longer-term affairs. But that is often not a decision made by the betraying party.
I believe this couldn't be more true. This is why we hear over and over, Focus on yourself. I believe, our journey, how we develop our strength, rebuild our lives, decide/discover who we are and who we want to be, how we resolve our own Foo issues, will ultimately be the determining variable in our future.
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LGO, Thanks for the info. What you say makes great sense, of course, and it's good for me to be reminded specifically of all the many variables that go into whether reconciliation someday happens or not.
I'm still a newbie (just 9 months since BD, exposure of the A, & H moving in with OW) and am still wrestling with all the demons the newbie is prone to. I want to look at "all the angles" and see what info/advice/opinions those who are farther along have. Always looking, I guess, for that elusive (non-existent?) nugget of wisdom that's going to make all this understandable. While I have made great progress in getting my primary focus off my H & the OW and onto myself, I'd be lying if I said it wasn't still on them much of the time.
Forward!
Thanks,
TMHP
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Yeah Trusting I know how you feel. Any nugget of dysfunction between them is great news. When my D told me the other day that ow had taken her baby across state lines without telling the baby's father(her exH) and lost custody to him I was so happy. Still am. Made all the articles become clearer. Or as we say at work clearerer. :) These OP are meaningless. But right now they are a distraction. Our Hs need to be in Fantasy Land right now. That's where God put them. ::)
I don't think the length of an A (under/over 18 mos) matters bc like everything else in life 'some people are just SLOW LEARNERS'
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TMPH,
I did not mean to scold you for looking at the affair. Read my recent posts and you will find them full of references to hobag. I get great relief from occasional :o focus on the A. Sometimes i can't help it b/c their behavior reaches out and slaps me in the face. The A is the HARDEST aspect to deal with in all of this, IMHO. It is also the reason to detach, and only keep them in your peripheral vision. Posting your questions and concerns is a good thing! Focusing on the A while you are here is ok! This is the place for it as opposed to your real life. 8)
I did mean to discourage you from looking at the stats. Your behaviors and activity at this time are the best predictors. Trust that the alienator is, as HB puts it, a placeholder. H is attracted to the similarity of their dysfunctions, to work through his own. You do not have those dysfunctions/character flaws/fears that he needs to work through. You do not want them either! let them have at it and it will self destruct. I go back and read RCR's articles on this topic when I feel doubtful. It helps.
Some quotes from OP and HB,
Believe nothing you hear and half of what you see. (or maybe the other way around?)
Nothing is as it seems.
Detach (a constant work in progress for me)
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Well, BD for me was 17 September 2008 so it's three years and two months since the affair started. The affair started in July 2008. Mine is a vanisher, I haven't seen him for more than a year and we have not spoken to each other for years. Our communication is through email from time to time. For the first nine months they each had their own rental but were always together at her place or at his place, after that they got one rental and live together for two years now and are also working together so they are together 24/7, sharing a room. So, affairs can last longer even when they see each other so often. Even when they are 24/7 with each other the affair takes a long, long time. I have read the statement about living together the affair ends sooner a bunch of times so I thought the affair should be dead by now, but no way, it is still going and my patience is running out.
I heard a few months ago that in February 2011 my MLC´er said to his friend that she is there just for sex and that he is still not happy and thinking of living alone in the future but it is now Oktober 2011 so what are words to a friend? I get hope when I hear those things but there is still no guarantee that he will be back.
It is very hard to continue to stand when there is no sign of anything, I only hear rumours in very small doses. In the last email that we shared it was only a lot of resentment and anger from his side, so he is still deep in the tunnel after all those years. I sometimes try to date someone but I have not met anyone that I like. Still living in the marital home I feel that my life is on hold for a very long time. But I still want him back, after all that he has put me through and I find that very strange about me. Holding on to what was, instead of going forward. He is stuck, I am stuck. According to my sister he is never capable to take a good look at himself, I always thought that he will come through but now I doubt everything. Because there is no movement.
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Kie,
You are one brave woman. If you still want him back (or "forward" ready to work on your relationship as RCR says) than I hope you can continue to keep hope alive.
I've only been at this 9 months and I'm already so tired. And I know I have many years ahead. It really is daunting.
I try to remind myself I can only live one day at a time anyway. Those days are going to happen in my life whatever I do, so, right now, I'm willing to continue my stand, trying to do things I enjoy, and fill the loneliness in ways that won't jeapardize my M (i.e. dating.) as best I can.
We're heros, Kie. We truly are!
TMHP
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Thanks TMHP for your kind words,
I now how hard it is in the beginning, it gets easier with time but sometimes it is so tiring. I enjoy my life, do lots of great stuff, wonderful sons who adore me and I try to give them a house full op peace and joy. Wherever I go, they will follow me in a heartbeat. They don't want to live with their father, they visit him regularly. My divorce was February 2010 so I am "allowed" to date someone else but it is very hard for me after a long marriage to find someone attractive. There is so much hurt that I don't think an other man could understand. The first two and a half years I didn't date. Now, for the last half year I have met two guys which I have met for two hours or so for a cup of coffee and then we both go our way because there is no connection. Baby steps in the dating area. I have zero confidence of finding someone I like because my MLC'er is still in my heart. But I don't want to be alone for the rest of my life and there is no movement at all on the side of my MLC'er, it's all a crapshoot, so I try to keep going forward with my life the best I can.
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kie,
I'm another long-term inmate. I know exactly what you mean. I think the length of time it takes is mind-boggling.
Right now I've been thinking about the Stockdale Paradox:
"You must never confuse faith that you will prevail in the end—which you can never afford to lose—with the discipline to confront the most brutal facts of your current reality, whatever they might be."
I can understand that you feel a bit stuck, but I think that is all part of the process as well. We have to go through those periods to come out the other side.
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Yes, the length is indeed mind-boggling and I know that MLC takes time but I could never think of the length it has taken till now. I always thought, well August 2010 he will be awake or other timeframes and all the dates in my head have gone by. So now I think it will never happen.
A few weeks ago the housesale came a little bit closer and I am thrilled to get my own place, to decorate everything different and it's all in my head already. So, fingers crossed. But I worry about my financial situation in later years and I can't let those thoughts go. My MLC'er and I had a very good life financially. When I think about my future I see me struggling financially and at other times I picture me and my MLC'er in my head, doing great things, enjoying life. Certain things, simple things, I want to do in life I want to do with him. Those fantasies make my day from time to time. They give me energy to go on. But the bad days are still there from time to time. Luckely, less and less.
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The stockdale paradox story says exactly that -- that those who didn't make it (out of the prison camps) were those who had definite dates by which they expected to be free. When those dates came and went they got too discouraged, and didn't survive.
That is why it is important not to have timelines, and to do as you are doing -- get on with life in the meantime.
But yes, I do understand the wanting to do things in life with him. Very much.
I am glad the bad days are fewer and fewer; I know that, too.
Good luck with your new house situation -- that does sound good!
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kie and T&L,
Your posts really hit home with me. I love the Stockdale paradox! I actually met him many years ago. He was on the board of a small college I worked at back in the early 1980s (I'm ancient. I think I'm the oldest person on this board!)
I, too, imagine all the things I want to do with my H when/if we reconcile. I find it a comfort on the bad days, too.
One of my fantasies is we'll get married in the Catholic Church on our 40th anniversary (20 months from now.) We were married in a civil ceremony at a courthouse with two witnesses. A civil marriage is not considered a marriage by the Church. (According to the Church I've been "living in sin" for 38 years!http://mlcforum.theherosspouse.com/Smileys/default/grin.gif)
I'd left Catholicism a few years before we married so it didn't matter to me then but I've returned to my faith, even before BD but especially since, and I now want to be right with my God.
I have this wonderful, old church in the inner city about 40 miles from my house I've been going to for the last 5 years. The priests are ancient, they do the Latin mass, Gregorian chant , incense and tons of statues, the whole 1950s early '60s Catholic experience. It's the Church of my youth and I love it. Contemporary Catholic worship leaves me cold but this I love.
So I plan my wedding right down to the hor'deurves at the reception! And of course my wedding dress, who's going to be my bridgesmaids, what my husband will look like, the music etc
Sounds crazy/pathetic I know. And 20 months from now is way to early for a reconciliation, I'm sure. On well, I can dream. Yet, even if it's 6 years from now, it's something to hope for. And hope is the "fuel" that helps lessen the times of despair and depression.
I know the early months are the worst. I do feel myself getting stronger each month. I also, though, feel myself less certain that my marriage is going to survive as the months go by.
The reality that my marriage is 100% over is becoming ever more real to me. That makes me sad. I tell myself this is God's plan, whatever happens, that makes me feel calm.
I await the future and, in the meantime, am doing what I can to make a new life and count my blessings!
TMHP
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For an interesting perspective on waiting and time, take a look sometime at the online message boards for people who are dating or married to someone who is in prison. There are many who are serving life sentences, and their spouses are still hopeful that they will be together some day. Although we can never know for sure, hopefully most MLC will be resolved sooner than 25 to life! (And hopefully most won't end up convicted felons either, but that's a whole other issue. ;) )
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WP, Now that's a perspective I never would have thought of. Thinking about it makes me thankful, yet it's a bit bizarre to compare my sitch to that. But then again, maybe it's not!
Your post was both inspiring and made me smile.
Thanks!
TMHP
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kie,
I'm another long-term inmate. I know exactly what you mean. I think the length of time it takes is mind-boggling.
Right now I've been thinking about the Stockdale Paradox:
"You must never confuse faith that you will prevail in the end—which you can never afford to lose—with the discipline to confront the most brutal facts of your current reality, whatever they might be."
I can understand that you feel a bit stuck, but I think that is all part of the process as well. We have to go through those periods to come out the other side.
T&L, that is very poignant..... I should keep reading that over and over again.
Love and hugs
Foxy xxx
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WP, that is an interesting perspective. But I don't think it is quite the same. The person in jail is not with OW/OM and many times the person outside has someone for the time the spouse/partner is in jail.
Also, they have a time frame, 25, for life, etc. Of course the sentence time can be reduced, but they have the sentence time frame in mind. We do not have a MLC for 7 years, MLC for 5 years, MLC for ever.
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Hi everyone I was wondering if someone can give me some insight to OW withdrawal? What to they tend to do (act)? How long does it tend to last? I know everyone is different I am just kind of wanting maybe an estimate.
My H is home and it is going very good. I know that he has not seen OW in 3 weeks but I know she was contacting him up until last week right before he came home.
H told me that he has been telling her it's over and to leave him alone, but from the stories I have heard from H himself she is NUTS! I know she will not let go easily. She can contact him at work anytime she wants. h told me she yells at him calls him names. ECT....
but her clinging and desperately hanging on for dear life. I know that he has not been through OW withdrawal I don't believe he has had any conversations since coming home on Fri.
Can someone give me some insight. He has broke it off with her in the past like 4 times but he was at his gma's and he said he got so bored and she minipulated him and poured on the Guilt.
He said he know that relationship and the feelings were not real and he has said that he learned a lot and doesn't at all want anything to do with her. She will not let go!
He opened up to me about OW and the horrible stuff that went on and how he knew for a long time that he didn't have anything with her but the Guilt consumed him and OW making him feel even worse.
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Until every form of contact stops (even on her end, change his mobile number, etc.) they are still attached. It took my H a good 5-6 weeks to go through this process. We talked about it. He thought about her a lot, seemed depressed, projected at times. Each day it got better. It seems to bother me more now than him, but if she were to contact him again, who knows what would happen.
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Smitty
Your H will go through a grieving process just as any one would at the end of a relationship, even though she was/is nuts. He will potentially be quiet and depressed. He will need time to think it through and as hard as it is you will have to validate his feelings. He will need time and space but will reach out when he needs to. This lasts approx 3 weeks to a month. Then as long as there has been NO contact the door shuts.
If there is any contact between them then Sassy is right, the process will have to start again.
xx
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I'm at that stage with him now. Or at least I'm pretty sure I am. But I hear what you are saying that it's bothering you. Cause it's bothering me too..
And what would happen if she contacts him again?
Well the other day I told him I'm fed up with the ghost of her ( he was trying to change passwords on things he let her know) and if the bi*ch wants to start something I'll disembowel her.
He hasn't had any contact with her since the end of Janaury 2011.
Early this morning I woke up to a wall of pillows he had built between us in the night. I sort of kidded him about how busy he is even when he sleeps. He said he loved me I said "No you don't love me" he said "I DO SO; I'm just scared of you" and we laughed our rear ends off. Then when we stopped for a breath I said
" I suppose if I were you I'd be scared of me too" And we started cracking up all over again.
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LOL my H has told me he is scared of me to. Guess I yelled to much about what he did (go figure!). His OW never yelled at him of course. He tells me I am the only person that every yelled at him (now that sounds like a 10 year old to me!)
If she continues to contact him in any way, the door is still open. I ran into OW yesterday and it threw me for a loop, I can only imagine when H does. Open honest communication is necessary. No matter if he thinks she is crazy, remember they at one point thought we were crazy too. There was a connection and it is easily reignited, I lived that for 8 months.
No contact, no emails, no nothing and then the clock starts. It is hard to watch the withdrawal because you want their attention, but it gets better I promise. Stay detached during it as much as you can and smile and be the lighthouse.
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Thanks for the response all of you have helped. I know I just have to stay quiet which I def will. He has told me so much about OW and I like the fact that he said I know the feelings I thought I had were not real, and If I start thinking back to the old feelings from the start I now Know what I need to do I just tell myself these are not real u know what it is and what it is really like. I am so glad that my H has a good understanding of the situation she said he told OW that she was just a symptom of the MLC and the only reason he has been seeing and talking to her since April is purely out of Guilt and then he told me that he just sometimes get depressed so he thinks back to the feelings he had from the start but he knows they were not real and he could never go back again. he said he just wants this done. I told him I understood and in order for him to move forward and process he is doing great bc he is aware of the situation and is getting his feelings under control.
I know there is going to b some rought times and he will b silent and withdrawn but I also know to just let him B. It was great yesterday morning he kissed me goodbye. Although come last night he was withdrawn and this morning the same he didn't kiss me goodbye today. I just asked him if he was OK? He said yes he was ok. I know he is depressed and is dealing with so much so I am just being quiet and letting him b.
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Thank You Sassy,
I appreciate all the advice I can get. I'm figuring 4 days no contact he is starting to withdraw and b depressed more and more. I am just not saying a word. When he wants to talk he knows where I am.
He did tell me something the other day that blew me away. He told me the first of the breakup in July he told her and was trying to leave the house and she totally flipped grabbed on to his legs and wouldn't let him leave she was screaming and crying. He couldn't get her off he got to the door and she kept getting in front of the door and wouldn't let him leave he said he was yelling so loud he was so hoarse. He kicked the door to try and get out and broke it but not bad enough that she couldn't close it or lock it and she was grabbing him hitting him and screaming at him he said he finially had to grab her by the neck and put her up against the wall to get out.
He said he knew she lied about a lot but after that he learned she really is a liar and minipulator She kept calling him when he left and said that the cops were called and he needed to come back . He said give them my number they can call me and come to me. Well no cops she then said that he broke the door and she can't lock it or close it and she is so scared. He said call your brother bc he knew it was ok.
After that he stayed away for a bit but of course he talked to her again bc the manipulation was getting worse the Guilt she put on him was overwhelming him. It took until about a month ago to learn that the guilt trips were just that. And he was done he knew what he had to do and did it he broke it off for good hasn't seen her in almost a month but she was contacting him with all the guilt trips still.
he told me he feels bad for her but he knows the truth and just keeps telling himself that its not real. He said he is in a place now that he understands and can tell himself this and b ok.
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Smitty... thanks so much for sharing this..... your husband HAS AN UNDERSTANDING that is priceless..... he will be FINE, but it is something he has to do himself with you in the background... there is overlap of OW R and marriage R.... there just IS....
If I had to speculate on my husband even GETTING to OW withdrawal..... I'd put it WAAAAAY out there at about a year.... that's to make room for him still being in contact "as friends" or whatever... he gets MORE and MORE tired of her and her antics.... but who knows what the BREAKING POINT will be? The fact that your husband is telling you this indicates he is DETERMINED to not go down that path again.... no matter what she does... but he has to run the OW gauntlet... she will pull out ALL the stops!!
Amazing what these OW do.....disgusting!! NO self respect!! It's ALL DRAMA, ALL THE TIME!! Mine told me the other day that his OW texts and calls him after a fight with a lot of "Ill do whatever it takes to win your love.... I'll take whatever you will give me... I love you THAT MUCH!!! I know it's wrong... but I can't help myself....I will CHANGE!!! Things will be different for us!! We are soul mates!!! Please don't leave me I might die without you!!" sort of stuff... then he said "I think I deleted all of them, but maybe I can find...." and I said "No, I really don't want to see them...."
Now, in the past, when they would "break up" and he would claim it was OVER FOR GOOD, but I would doubt him and tell him to give me his phone, his face would turn pale and he would say "maybe I kept some of her messages so I could listen to them over again, but I HAVEN'T listened to them...." and I would know it wasn't over. It is POSSIBLE that THIS time, he actually HAS deleted all of her messages and texts... but the curiosity of wanting to see what she says to him can suck him in again... still, if my husband actually HAS deleted them?? It's an improvement... Then again, he might have just been posturing with the "I think I deleted all of them, but MAYBE, I could find ONE...." who knows???
So, if it were me... I would just assume I have another YEAR of possible contact and reconnection..... the breakup takes forever, from what I've heard. :(
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My H's exOW bought him literally. Paid for his apartment, secret phone, furnished it, supplied it with cooking utensils down to a spice rack, towels, matching bathroom accessories and bath mat! Literally she was making sure he had every comfort of home, even dust mite covers for his pillows ( :o). She was mothering him all the way. When he was conflicted, she offered to pay for his rent and all his food. It was absolutely disqusting. She is completely controlling and manipulative. As soon as I started to not react and just let him be (I was honest but not reactive) was when he turned the corner. She had him convenienced to not tell me where he lived because I would be outside screaming (she knows nothing about me I have way more pride than that). Funny thing is I gave all her crap to goodwill and a nice leather coach and kitchnette set to G4ME. My H's little 4 day move out experiement cost me $5K and he had to write her a check to pay back the $3K he borrowed from her! Yikes they can't see beyond their toes and act like 16 year olds and do not think of consequences.
Sit back, be patient and let him come to you. Reach pursue/distance (you distance). It works. My H is always pursuing now, but it took about 4-5 weeks. It is hard to watch, but there is an overlap no matter how much we hate it. You will have great days, limbo days and horrible days. After you have your first huge fight over this whole MLC/OW thing and he doesn't bolt, then you will know. Keep your feelings to yourself as much as possible until he can go through this and then slowly you can let out truth darts. Trust your gut.
Keep posting and keep us updated with your sitch.
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Merged this in with a previous thread on this subject that HB had also contributed to.
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Found this - HB had written this earlier in the year:
Once into OW/OM Withdrawal, they are
1. GRIEVING the end/loss of the affair and of the affair partner,
2 processing the SHAME and GUILT of the addiction they'd once felt, that also drove them to what they did, and
3. processing the meaning of the connection they'd forged with the affair partner, even though they know they were wrong, did wrong, and what they did was wrong.
4. They also have to process through the addiction itself to rid themselves of it...
That's why IF they reconnect with the affair partner, the affair will start up again, and OW/OM Withdrawal will end until they make the break once again; then OW/OM Withdrawal will start up from the beginning again, after ALL contact is broken.
What drives them back multiple times is the real sense of responsibility that they are at fault for having dragged this "fine" person into the mess they made..that's why they're often defensive and protective of the affair partner. They feel guilt and shame over knowing they must dump them; but for a time weakness keeps them down.....until they become emotionally ready to break it down completely, and the affair must also become very unsatisfactory to them; they will remain in this status quo.
Anytime you make a emotional connection with someone whether legal or illegal, that person lays claim to a place within your head and heart, when the connection/relationship ends, this is grieved through and processed.
Within the OW/OM Withdrawal, this same connection is also processed through, and broken completely; and the affair person is "purged" from their head, and heart.
They also DO miss the affair partner; more what they did for them, than the actual person themselves, but they have associated and attributed their addictions, highs etc., TO this person, and so they grieve out a whole lot of feelings, various emotions, including dealing with what was within them, whether it was a character fault, or other such issue, that drove them to do what they did, and these are all processed to a final end.
This has to occur and end BEFORE the person who's had the affair will start turning to the one they cheated on again.
For what it's worth, affair partners who are dumped; that didn't wish to be dumped, go through the SAME behaviors of clinging, begging, pleading, and grieving that the LBS goes through when the MLC'er drops the bomb on them expectedly. The difference here is the LBS attains the tools of the journey of a lifetime, whereas the OW/OM who gets dumped, doesn't learn these things, and within a given time, gets into another affair with someone else, repeating the same patterns again, and again, and again.
There are very real problems within men and women who have affairs; and these problems aren't much different than the MLC'ers who get involved with them.
Maybe this will help; this was courtesy of not only what I saw my husband go through, but also, a whole lot of research done some years ago on my part; and nothing has really changed in this aspect, believe it, or not.
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This was very interesting Kikki, thanks for posting it.
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Sassyone.
Hmm I have had a few huge fights this past month with Dearheart and he hasn't run. In fact he's dug in deeper to stay even tho I have thrown it in his face. Don't think he's ready yet but maybe he's processed more than I thought.
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SL:
I remember my first huge fight with my H after he committed to stay. I was sure that he was going to run back to OW as that is what he had always done (even when I wasn't aware.) I have talked to him about this and he told me no he made his decision and he knows I have a lot of hurt and anger that will take a long time to work through. (He forgets that sometimes in the heat of the moment.) I find that I am triggered by things and my insecurity makes me reactive, I am learning slowly (with the help of therapy) to let go of OW. She was a symptom not the cause, but I still hate the symptoms, just like the flu.
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How does the withdrawal work with an EA? If there is no PA?
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How does the withdrawal work with an EA? If there is no PA?
stc,
It works the same... anything that a person is/was addicted too, there will be "withdrawal". For example: If you know a friend that smoked or is trying to quit smoking? The tendency is when they try to quit "cold turkey" notice them gaining some weight due to them trying to fulfill their addiction with something else. Same as dieting (to lose weight), the best approach is to gradually do it and not to do it "cold turkey". I hope these examples gives you an idea when it comes to withdrawal.
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Thanks LG,
Last night was better we all ate dinner together as a family,after cleaning up I went to take a shower bc I bbq(smoke). He came in the bathroom which i have noticed when I take a shower he always comes in there just to say a few things, Then I stayed in the bedroom bc the kids were playing video games in the living room. He came in there and was sitting on the bed watching T.V. It was pretty quiet for a bit but we slowly started talking about what we were watching. He had a bunch of text that were from work so he was on the computer for work to work on schedule. I have noticed he always mentions who just text him like last night when he gets texts he will just talk about what they are so i am aware they are from work. IDK i never ask or anything I guess he wants to make sure I know they are not from OW. We talked a bit while watching T.V until we just went to bed. I am just not asking any questions or talking about anything just letting it be until he is ready. I think the great thing is he has an understanding of the situation, which is wonderful. Just going to take some time to work through!
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Smitty.....your H obviously wants to reasure you that he isnt talking/texting OW...Thats nice isnt it?
Thats what will have to happen...to be so transparent you can see right through him :D
My H did the same thing the other day while on the phone...he was telling me everything OW was texting him....I didnt ask, he just told me.
Like he wanted me to know how horrible she is....or that he didnt care..IDK I know its a lil different in my case...but Honey was being
very open about everything.....more then ever before. was nice for a change. :D
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Thanks Synicca,
Yes it is nice that he wants to reassure me of that. I am just doing what I should b and leave him alone if he wants to talk then im there.
It is hard though when they go from being so nice and getting closer to you then they back off and I know it's bc of OW withdraw so I am just letting it B. See when he is ready!
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Perfect Smitty....Be the lighthouse with a huge bright beam pointed in your H's direction...hehehe
((hugs))
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Well I once again went through emails and found the ones they were writing back and forth right at the endback in January. Some of the sex was mentioned. He made a comment of how it went on for hours and hours ( Oh joy) She referred to his ED and how he didn't seem to care about it.
So I don't know who's more f'ed up..unless of course the sex didn't involve actual intercourse.
Funny that was yesterday. Our D18 wanted to play an online game last night on his computer. Then she somehow uninstalled it and asked me to fix it this morning. I went to find them again and he's deleted all of those emails.
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Thanks again Synicca!!!! ;D
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Inthis,
Does you H know you r getting into his email to look through? I'm just curious to know.
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That's what I was thinking. He may have seen that you looked at them. The history of what you did on the computer is able to be looked up by him. Maybe that's why they were deleted. It's best to leave that stuff alone.
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Nope no way for him to know... and this morning he gave me his password for the computer.
Honestly? If he's being truthful about working on this he NEEDS to let me see what he's up to on the computer. This is how all the crap started with her to begin with.
He will not discuss hardly anything with me right now that's why I lost patience with him the other day and told him I'm fed up with the mention of her name. BUT it will have to be discussed.
He moved the computer from the garage into the house so he is more accessible while using it and cannot "hide" as well as he did before and that was his idea to move it.
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Inthis,
I understand exactly what u r saying. Now that my H is home u can't help but think all sorts of different things. But I just have to let it go and focus on other things. My H doesn't hide anything and he leaves his phone plugged in the bedroom. I just have realized in the past is u can't focus on the negative things and I think the best thing is to give him space and show him that u trust him.
I know that sounds so weird with all they did, but I know that this is not my H,and I know he wouldn't do this again. In fact we discussed this the other day he told me he knows I don't trust him and he understand but there is no way I would ever do that again, I don't understand how people do this over and over again. I have been so miserable. I just know in my heart that my H will never do this again and I believe showing him that I have faith in him goes a long way for our relationship. If I kept asking and nagging him about every little thing that will cause other problems. I just have to Trust,love,forgive and take it day by day.
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Hi everyone,
Just wanted to give you a quick update. My H has been home a week, the first 3 days were good, I can tell that he is full OW withdrawal. He hasn't any contact of any kind with OW for 7 days. He really withdrew on Monday and I really havent spoken to him very much at all. He just goes in the backyard and pulls weeds or sits and just has a beer by himself for hours. I asked him if he was ok. He said yeah don't I seek ok? I said yes you are just really quiet and sitting in the backyard. He said I;m fine. Yesterday was a bad day. I needed help with something but he was just not all there. I cried out of frustration and he just said what the hell r u crying about. Well the angry H is back we didn't have a R talk H just started spewing a little telling me that his mind is going everywhere and he doesn't know what to do. I told him I'm sorry and I can't imagine what that is like but u will get through this I know it's not easy but u will. Then he said whatever I know I'm going through something but I can't help all the thoughts I have He said I came back here bc I figured I had nothing to lose and I wanted to see if I did have any feelings for u but I don't I haven't for years. I said Ok I don't agree to that what so ever I know what it was like before this I know u can't see it now but U will.
He said a bunch of things he also said if this was 8 months ago and I was having all these thoughts and feelings I would of left, but I'm in a different place. I did tell him if you can say with 100% that u r done then go I will not stop u but I will go down the next day and file. I will not go through this again and put our D through it again. She has come around some and is starting to talk to u and have things to do with u, but if u do this again I will never have anything to do with u again, I will walk away and end it completely. He couldn't say that he didn't say anything. He called his mom and told her I know I'm going through something I just know that she has questions that I can't answer right now. (which I didn't ask anything) Every 5 min my mind changes it's all over the place. I still have some feelings for OW but I don't want to b with her but my head is just everywhere. He told his mom that he took a long time to make sure he wanted to come back 100% sure and he is he knows what he wants and he is where he wants to be(home) but he just is going through something right now.
I know he is going through OW withdrawal so he just needs to hang in there and work through it and in a few weeks it will b better for him.
I know I just have to sit back and be quiet even though I want to smack him upside is confused head.
OW withdrawal is not easy they seem to go back a ways and have Monster moments and the confusion is worse now, Bc when he came back the first few days he was nice almost like old H and he was open about everything which I know were his true feelings but now that he is in OW withdrawal the confusion is back and screwing with his head. He knows he needs to fight it and I know it won't be easy on either of us but silence is all I can do and keep busy Like I always have let him deal with his crap alone.
There was a lot more but I will remember later I'm sure.
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Hang in there Smitty, You are doing the right thing. You know what he is going through and you can't take to heart the things that come out of his mouth. You're being very smart although I know it must be so hard. He is so cunfused but at least he knows that he is going through something. It will get better. If you have to, stay as busy as you can and away from his moods. Try not to engage in any "how are you feeling" conversations. Stay out of his space as much as you can until you see OW withdrawal subsiding. Even then, I wouldn't ask too many questions. You can do this!! Vent to us!!
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Thanks so much Wondering,
This is so hard, It's like you see the finish line and you just want it to b like it should he comes back feeling all the love for u but instead I get the opposite. I know he is so confused and I am staying away I will just let him alone to deal with himself I am not going to b part of that problem.
Thanks for the advice It helps a lot.
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Smitty, I think it is a positive to see he called his mother and also stated that he is going through something and that he knows he can't answer your questions right now. I know you did not ask any but this is what his perception is. That's why you must try your hardest to not ask him anything, even whether he would like a cup of coffee ;D His mind is a mess but it's temporary. Read up on OW withdrawal and take comfort that your H is following the script. Don't let your mind wander to thinking he won't get through this. You are doing great. You told him you won't go through this again, now don't say it again for a while. If he spews monster or thoughts that he can't do this, just pretend to understand and validate...sorry you feel that way. He will change his mind several times. Ignore his confusion....be the lighthouse.
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So far my husband has suffered very little OW withdrawal. He made sure he already had OW2 in toe when things were going a little fantasy land with OW1. He also had keep conversations with a few other women during OW1, none of which become a real OW. But one can see he was making sure he would not had to be on his own.
Wondereing if, when things start going less fancy, he is going to jump from OW2 into OW3 or if, this time, he will hit the botton. After all, he can not stop for a minute (always keeps himself busy and/or surrounded by people) nor on his own, because he does not bare to think about what he has done. Just keeps running, running, running...
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It's interesting for me to go back to this old thread. I can report back now, that while what I was seeing during H's visits and in between the visits, might have been bits of OW withdrawal, he didn't complete it at that time. She continued to contact him and probably manipulate him with reminders of their special friendship and pitiful tales of her own marriage (throwing up here is permissible!). He was also too weak and too lonely at the time to face OW withdrawal. He was not living here, but was visiting 3 or 4 days a week.
I can also tell you all that while many will display lots of the signs mentioned here, the extent will vary greatly. I think it was in kikki's post and an HB post that grieving is mentioned. I drove myself a bit crazy when the real OW withdrawal was happening because he wasn't displaying these signs to the extent mentioned here. Rereading this post caused me to think about it. I suspect that how they go through OW withdrawal will be very similar to the way they have grieved over other deaths in the past. My H grieves quietly. It's a bit odd really. One would not really know he was grieving as he seems his usual self. He simply goes on in quietness. I've seen this when each of his parents died. No tears, no discussions, nothing but perhaps becoming angry a bit more quickly than usual. This is how his OW withdrawal looked.
The exception is the day he ended all contact and told her not to contact him again. That day, he was a bit manic and afraid. He needed lots of reassurance from me that day. I didn't know what was going on until a few days later, but I knew something was up. I even said something to him.
The other thing I learned was not to mention her or to question him about her during this time. I'm not perfect and did this a couple of times. He did not turn back to her and did not run. I felt terrible doing it as I knew it was hurtful to him, but I also needed to ask about it for myself. We can only give so much as we are dealing with A LOT! There was also one piece of contact remaining that I needed to have ended. He wasn't utilizing it, but I knew it was possible that she could contact him still. He blocked her cell number and emails previously on the day the friendship was ended. (the PA had ended months prior) He ended that last means of contact when I asked him about it several weeks later.
So my point is this: watch for the behavior that is different. It may not look like what is described here depending upon the MLCer and their methods of grieving. Also, as others have said, I think this process generally last 4-6 weeks from what I've read.
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Thanks for sharing your experience Patience. That's really interesting.
My H also grieved for the loss of my Dad (they were very close) and his Dad very quietly. If OW withdrawal ever comes, I probably can expect to experience what you have.
As a matter of interest - did you ever go No Contact Patience? At 21 mths post BD, RCR has advised that I need to do this with my H as a consequence of being with the OW.
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kikki- My H was an early returner and a very clingy boomerang. There was no time for full NC really as it all happened quickly. After he did move out, I did not call or text him UNLESS it was about the kids (and since they are older, there was little need for that) or unless he texted me first. He also was spending 3-4 days a week in our home. I was more dim on the days he was elsewhere.
There were two exceptions to this. One was a few days after he moved out and immediately after a death in our family. I was grieving for all of it a lot. I became very angry about the death, but it became about him. I called and told him to ignore any calls or texts from me that day as I was hurting and angry. End of conversation. The other time was when I discovered a piece of affair evidence he left sitting out where our children could have found it. The mother lioness came out! I called him on it for that reason even though I now know it also was because it was hurtful to me. Even after he told me I could call him, I did not do so.
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Thanks Patience - I don't contact my H either - no need to with a CB as you know they'll be in touch. I do respond, but that is what RCR thinks I need to stop doing. I am just biding my time, as our boys have final exams coming up, and I know from experience that the emotional clinging will be transferred to our middle son instead of me if I disappear on him. Now is not the right time.
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Thanks so much wondering, I appreciate all the support I can get. It's kind of weird I guess but We sit and think and cry wanting them to come home. Then when they do to b honest it's much easier to deal with Withdrawal from a far. But I wouldn't change anything I have strength I know what I have to do Like everything else I will just do it.
My was a clinging Boomerang also. I knew early on that I was not going to put up with any of this I told him if he needed to come by for something he can text me in advance so I can b gone, I wasn't going to b there to get his fill of what he needed to reassure that I am still there
he didn't deserve that right. I pretty much went n/c with my H I was not going to play his highschool games bottom line. I left him to his own craziness I wasn't playing. Worked great bc it was just him and OW. He made a statement to me a couple days ago about OW he said he just knew they would never work he knew for a long time but he stayed purely out of guilt, but he said it was hard they didn't have conversations like we did. He said when he came hm from work if he talked about something that bothered him she would just shrug her shoulders. Or when they were watching a T.V. show if he tried to talk about it she didn't engage. The thing is that is who she is she has always been that way. I told him that is how she has always been u guys only talked through text from day one! He said u know what u r right we have conversations but not about anything worth talking about And when we talk it is through texting. I told him yeah I know u didn't realize it then but u were only talking(texting) and Pa for 2 weeks when I found out and u up and wanted to throw away 22yrs. He said he didn't realize how little the time was he thought they had been doing this for months when it was only 2 weeks, and after I found out he stayed a month b4 he left to gma's house he thought when I found out he left the next day. He said he went back to look at his calendar and said I can't believe the time frame I had in my head was so off. I told him well when u think about it now with a somewhat clearer head doesn't it sound ridiculious to up and leave ur family for somebody u had only been seeing for 2 week. He said yeah of course but then I thought we were in love and I was leaving to start a life with her. He said he really can't remember most of what has happened at all.
Crazy mind of an MLCer!!!!!
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Smitty - thanks for sharing your H's insights - amazing how they all seem to be saying the same things once moving through the tunnel.
Those of us that are yet to hear this from our H's/W's of course are wondering whether we will??
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Kiki you will just have faith and pray for your husband (if you believe in prayer if not I'm sorry and didn't mean to offend) I prayed and pray for my H all the time, I'm only a year in and he is this far along.
Thanks so much
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Smitty and Patience.... thank you so much for posting.... it really helps pave the way for the rest of us.... but REALLY???? IS THIS what I have to look forward to??? WITHDRAWAL!! I only HOPE mine starts his or is in it soon.... I suspect he is with OW from last night through tonight... not contacting me.. that is his MO when with her... like I wouldn't notice, LOL!! But, he may be one who grieves fairly quietly... I know that I did... when ending my EA... well, actually, I was "dumped" by my EA partner, LOL!! That's what probably took me so long to get over him... BUT, I never brought it to my family...
The difference, I guess is..... I was not in a "I LOVE YOU full blown PA, cheating affair..... it was a carryover from my single days....not justifying.. just looking back in hindsight... I definitely KNEW I only wanted to be married to my husband and faithful to him.. BUT, I enjoyed the flattery and attention from OM... although, in hindsight???? HIs phon ecalls were ALWAYS only about HIM and HIS doings and accomplishments... problems... if not me, it would have been someone else. I totally flattered him, as he was a rock star and his friendship yielded certain perks....
I just want to jump ahead and be done with the whole AFFAIR!! Just give me plain vanilla MLC symptoms... NO AFFAIR!!!
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LG The affair is to mlc like a hot compress is to a zit. :o :o
If they were going to not abandon the family and just lay around partying MLC could take 100 years. :o The affair speeds up the nutso brain chemicals and off to the races. Then their pressure cooker heads are about to explode...then they go through OW withdrawal and the rest. Like when a rollercoaster ride is over and it comes in for the stop slows down,,,click click click and your neck is goin back and forth.. :o :o :o
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I totally flattered him, as he was a rock star and his friendship yielded certain perks....
Well, well, well, LG, now you've confirmed my suspicious that OW1 and OW2 only flatter and care and love husband soooooooo much because he is a DJ star and being his girlfriend brings certain benefits. He was not such a DJ star before he left. he had started DJing a while before leaving but he was still his quiet self. After he left he went bananas and just wanted loads of attention. Think it was all part of the living a new life thing...
So, unless he sops being a DJ star, or gets tired of it (or his body will take no more paty and sleepless nights), I think his MLC will not end. he is so trapped into that DJ star thing...
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I keep reading that ws feel guilty abandoning ow
this is really hard to understand.
xh married his ow and I still believe she is disposable she is a parasite
people who had seen her describe her as a survivor. she does anything necessary to survive, like a ow
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I keep reading that ws feel guilty abandoning ow
this is really hard to understand.
Yes, it is the part I find harder to get. Why feeling guilty about leaving alienator? I know, I know, the in-fatuations, the emotional blackmail. But if a LBS makes emotional blackmail the MCLer will rund faster into the alienator arms, yet, the MCLer stays with the alienator, even tries to save their relashionship... makes no sense...
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LG The affair is to mlc like a hot compress is to a zit. :o :o
If they were going to not abandon the family and just lay around partying MLC could take 100 years. :o The affair speeds up the nutso brain chemicals and off to the races. Then their pressure cooker heads are about to explode...then they go through OW withdrawal and the rest. Like when a rollercoaster ride is over and it comes in for the stop slows down,,,click click click and your neck is goin back and forth.. :o :o :o
Now that would have to be the analogy of the month - what a pretty picture that makes in my head :)
And thanks Smitty for your thoughts
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Approx how long withdrawal goes on for?
SK xxx
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I keep reading that ws feel guilty abandoning ow
this is really hard to understand
The depression and guilt that the MLCer feels after leaving the OW/OM is about the break down of the relationship and futures lost. When they left us they had been moving towards that point often for months or even years. They had used every transgression on our part as part of their justification for blaming us and leaving.
The bond they build with the OW/OM is part of their running behaviour and whether we like or not (and I don't lol) the need between them is strong at the time. As time moves on the OW/OM is no longer needed by the MLCer as part of their journey. The alienator has shown their true colours and this is not what they signed up for.
But rather than years the turn for home often happens in months. Our MLCer has lied and manipulated them as much as us and so they have a huge sense of guilt for 'wrecking' the OW/OM life. Often they have promised a loving future with marriage etc. They look to us and see a strong independent person who is moving forward with their life. This is what they want not the needy, emotionally labile individual they are with who has now outgrown the role they had within the MLC. Although they have been a part of their life they decide to let the OW/OM go.
As with every end of a relationship the emotional fallout has to be dealt with. The guilt and emotions have to be analysed and learnt from as part of their journey so as the door can be firmly shut forever. That's when we see the withdrawal and depression. They are working through every aspect of the affair. Also the alienator will be in a position that we were in at bomb drop so the roles are reversed and they will often pursue and beg and plead adding to the angst of the MLCer and the confusion and guilt he/she feels.
xx
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update:
My H is still withdrawn in a week we have hardly said anything to eachother. I am just going about my business not asked him anything. I have seen a some good signs, he is staying in the family room with us watching T.V or whatever we are doing. He is not staying outside by himself as long as all. He told me goodnight last night which was a positive bc usually we just go to bed and not say a word. It's moving along.
I did find out some info yesterday.I know OW exh he contacted my sister and asked her if me and my H were talking about getting back together, bc he just found out that OW and my H had been over for a while, and OW asked him if he had talked to me she wanted to know if my H had moved back home bc they don't talk. She has been going over to her exh house for the last couple weeks staying really late drinking she said he is fun she hasn't had any fun or been happy in a long time. She said she is in love with My H but she is happier that he is gone bc there was to much stress and my H didn't want to do anything ever. But she is heartbroken and would take him back if he wanted to.
Newsflash OW he's never going back!!!! it was good to get confirmation that my H is done and hasnt had any contact with OW in a while.
which I did figure bc he is so withdrawn but I can see he is trying.
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Thank you for sharing that, Smitty!! It really DOES help me to see inside their "secret" MLC and affair dynamics... it really does!
I hope my husband spills the beans to OW about us buying a house before I put it on Facebook at Christmastime, LOL!! On the one hand, I don't want to do anything that will cause her "scorned woman" instincts to ramp up... on the other hand, perhaps us buying a house together would "encourage" her to accept he is not going to be with her....
Of course, him stopping all communication with her would be a first step... ya think? >:(
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Thanks LG,
I know what u mean, it is nice to hear that the R they had was nothing but stress and unhappiness. Which I knew they truly are miserable people that are so unhappy with themselves that couldn't b happy with anyone. They are so confused and deceived that it's impossible for them to love anyone! I know they say they r happy and in love but they know they truly know that deep down it was never and will never work. I told u earlier my H wanted to leave in April but the guilt and deception, minipulation of OW is what kept him there so long. Me and my H never really fought we would have discussions and move on but when I heard what she does and is doing from my H it made me realize also that these OW's R that way possesive,jealous,sneaky,manipulative,and insecure. My H was use to me who did everything myself and everything for him, he had went to a OW who couldn't even learn how to sign on to her bank account online by herself. She couldn't cook anything unless it came out of the microwave. Just stuff I knew he would realize and not like at all, but I think what really bothered my H is how he saw her so fake and doing things that he knew she normally wouldn't do she was just doing it bc she thought that is what he wanted. And she couldn't carry on a intelligent conversation or talk to him about his issues at work like he always did with me he always contacted me when there was an issue and i would help him resolve it. I actually found him contacting me early on about work stuff problems and I knew he wanted me to help him but I didn't he wanted to b on his own with his OW you got it! My H said he started to really see things and knew sometime in March that they would never work, and his feelings were not what they thought but u see he still stayed until July, CRAZY :o. That is how bad the Guilt and manipulation from OW was.
So I knew in April he was trying to leave OW but I didn't want him to, bc he still would of kept seeing her so I wanted him to stay until he literally coudn't stand her. Which happened and her Kids he would do everything to stay away working 7 days straight and only being off when OW was at work. But I kept quiet and did my thing let them sink! I knew it would eventually and it did!
Funny though she is running to her ExH to try to get info on me and H, bc he doesn't have anything to do with her and I have not talked to anybody about what is going on now bc I want keep it stress free and the less people r in our business the better!
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he had went to a OW who couldn't even learn how to sign on to her bank account online by herself. She couldn't cook anything unless it came out of the microwave. Just stuff I knew he would realize and not like at all, but I think what really bothered my H is how he saw her so fake and doing things that he knew she normally wouldn't do she was just doing it bc she thought that is what he wanted. And she couldn't carry on a intelligent conversation or talk to him about his issues at work like he always did with me he always contacted me when there was an issue and i would help him resolve it.
Smitty..... this is how my husband has described his OW when he "shares" or let's thing slip! I've heard him say "she doesn't have a pot to piss in... she's needy and insecure... she lied about how much money she makes... she didn't pay bills she agreed to pay....she's a terrible Mother..... she can't and doesn't cook... she begs, cries, and promises to change... tells him she can't live without him...."
He just told me this past weekend "the fights between me and OW are TEN TIMES WORSE than the worst fight we have EVER had!" which I can't even imagine, cuz the last big one we had, I called the police, LOL!! ;D ;D
He tells me she is "ignorant" and he "can't talk to her.. she's stupid..." tells me he LOVES talking to me, which is funny as hell, because my husband thinks "chit chatting" and talking are a waste of time, hahaha!! He believes her to be manipulative and "trying to ruin my marriage!!" :o :o ya think?????
he would do everything to stay away working 7 days straight and only being off when OW was at work. But I kept quiet and did my thing let them sink! I knew it would eventually and it did!
Smitty.... it just dawned on me that when my husband is at OW's, she may be working most of the time, which would be ideal for him... then he can just use her place to drink and smoke pot all day and night.... it actually makes a little sense... that he goes to her place cuz he doesn't care about her... just wants to escape responsibility, and he cares so little for her, he's willing to lie and tell her whatever to get in her house while she works and kowtows before him... he must feel like the devil in charge at her place... the problem is.... like ALL OW... she demands MORE!!! Wants to know where they stand... doesn't want to be USED, LOL!!! Really? Maybe you should have cut your losses about 18 months ago when he told you he would NEVER leave me for you, OW!!
I truly beieve they can only stand STUPID people in their state of mind... the chaos reigns... mine uses the phrase "how can I be expected to remember in this fog?" frequently when I hold his feet to the fire...
Thanks for sharing... keep it coming, girl!! ;)
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They stand a lot of rubish with other person. Mine also couldn't stan chit chat but he did it all the time with OW1. OW1 could not cook, said husband she did not knew how to be a wife or housewife...did that stop him?...No!
With OW1 I can see the not wanting responsabilities thing. husband lived in rented rooms, OW1 lived with her parents hundres of km away and they would meet on the weekend. Even if she was always dreaming of a fantasy home for the two of them, they never had a life together.
But with OW2 he does have a life together, all the bills and responsabilities that living with someone bring. So, don't know how he manages that ... he wanted to be free, not to have to care with a thing...Well, maybe she takes care of everything, including taking care of him...Looking at their correspondence that is waht it looks like, she takes care of everything.
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nah.... AnneJ... OW doesn't have to take care of anything anymore!! Your husband is TRAPPED!! He's not FREE!! Mine isn't free any time he is with OW.... but he did tell me he thinks he goes there because it "REPRESENTS freedom" to him..... the reality is they are trapped, but they associate being free with the OW.... we call it a cheeseless tunnel... but they still TRY to make it work.... I call that "arguing with reality", like when you go to the store for condensed milk right before a holiday and there are no cans on the shelf.... they are sold out... but you stand in front of that shelf looking for Condensed Milk.... as if it is there SOMEWHERE... you just can't see it... BUT, what you are doing is ARGUING WITH REALITY... there is NO CONDENSED MILK, LOL!!
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I love condensed milk....
But yes I have done the standing in front of a shelf too, hoping for one to materialise. ol
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Lol the image of staring of an empty shelf of condensed milk and hoping for a can to materialise is very, very, funny. ;D
I know he is trapped, LG. So very TRAPPED. We don't talk but there is always the grapevine. The man cannot go anywhere without her, and, if he goes, he has to let her know where he is, and, if he comes out of the city they live at, he has to go back right he finished whatever he had went to do.
It has been over 1.5 years since he come to our home town where is family also lives. No way, OW2 does not want the man here. Who knows, maybe he still knows the way to my family house... ::) ;D ;D ;D He did not even come last christmas, stayed with OW2 and her family. He had never done that before, first year that ever happened.
Looking from my side, husbands life is a dark tunnel mixed with trapped hamster in the wheel. He is just a toy in OW2 hands. And he does not look happy. Saw some recent photos of him in my SIL FB and, boy, did the man look old, tired, bags under the eyes, dead eyes. I have no idea who that person is. Really, I was amazed and horrified.
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Captain curious here....is the condensed milk for pie....why is it sold out.....
Anyway here's one thing I know for sure...OW brings the to H***.....really...I don't just mean a sucky place but H***. AnneJ I'm guessing OW1 wasn't crazy enough...he needed a real nutter...hopefully this one will drag him down...I know it sounds nutz but a crazy alienator is an advantage because the move things along.
Meanwhile it's the LBS job to enoy time to ourself....do what we need to nurture ourselves...and express gratitude that they are not our problem..oh and to be very cAreful not to play OW to OW
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LG,
That is so funny how most of these OW's are so similar. My H told me that he couldn't stand OW kids but it wasn't the kids fault it was Her's he said she is not the mother I am, he said he made comments to her that we raised our kids so different and they need discipline. He said he could tell she was trying to change which annoyed him bc he knew it wasnt for the kids she was just trying to pretend to b a different person all around.
I told him yeah I know I remember telling u from day 1 that u have no idea who she is bc she is hiding everything and that one day u will see the real OW. He said I know I remember u telling me that but at the time I could of cared less. I was so far gone that it wouldn't of mattered what u said or did. And thinking back OW did do alot of the thiings that I cant stand but I just made excuses to myself and ignored everything bc I was in the moment and I loved the feeling, he said I told u from about April on I knew we would never b together and I knew my feelings for her were not that they were in the beginning like U said they were just infatuation, he said that is why I found myself thinking back to the beginning to get that feeling back and I realized that those feelings were not real at all. I think the OW are so similar it's scary Ow would do the same thing beg cry plead manipulate ect. She also told him she couldn't live without him. Talk about issues, H told me that she has mental problems and he felt so guilty for leaving her in this situation and knowing she is not all there made him feel worse. I told him I understand what u r saying but OW put herself in this position herself by getting involved with a married man! He said he knew that but he is guilty of it too. I just said ok.
I will say in the last couple days he has been in a much better mood talking, engaging with the family and is talking to me more and more not just sitting in the backyard having a beer or 2. He hasn't been in the backyard for days! It's all looking up everyday.
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Smitty2929 ~ Things are sounding really good. I love hearing what your H has to say. My H has been with
his Skank since last Sept., living together since Dec.. Hmmmm, I guess he isn't seeing the truth about her
even though she won't leave every other weekend so our son can go to H's house. She has a shack of her own to go to. It's not like she has no place to go. In the last week I have learned she is also lying about things that I know are true and my H believes her. :o :o Wake up H!
NB
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Thanks New,
I don't really know if Good is the right word. H is still distant from me he seems to avoid me like the plague. This is the hardest part they leave have affairs and then they turn things around on u it's ridiculious.
I have a question for anybody that can answer. I know that they withdraw from us when they go through the OW withdraw and he has he can b a little monster every once in a while, but do they feel like they did in the beginning. He is saying that the problem's now are between me and him and has nothing to do with OW. He said the ILYBNILU crap again. He said he came home to see if the feelings would come. Which I know is crap bc he made a point to me and his mom that he has wanted to come home for months but he wanted to make sure that he was 100% sure he wanted to come back to reconcile our marriage and he said he was then he comes back.
So is this a normal part of the OW withdraw bc man this is hard I feel like I'm back to the beginning some what?
Any help would b appreciated!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
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Smitty ~ That has to be soooo hard. Hugs for you. ;D That is what I don't know, if I could ever deal with my H coming home and
then once he's there, he's dreaming about OW. I read somewhere that when they are with OW, they think of the wife and kids, and when they are with the wife, they think of OW. I just feel like I have been through so much, not that H is or ever will want to come back, but if he did, I just don't know if I could handle dealing with OW withdrawl. I don't think I could let him come back until
he was through that. Thats just me.
I am sorry you have to go through this. I don't have an answer for you because I'm only 8 months in this MLC crap. I
will be praying for you and your H. Take care.
NB
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He said he came home to see if the feelings would come. Which I know is crap bc he made a point to me and his mom that he has wanted to come home for months but he wanted to make sure that he was 100% sure he wanted to come back to reconcile our marriage and he said he was then he comes back.
So is this a normal part of the OW withdraw bc man this is hard I feel like I'm back to the beginning some what?
Smitty,
Incredible!!!! My H did exactly the same thing at Easter this year apparently.....he told our Son a month ago when they met up for the first time since May! that he came back to me to see if his feelings of anxiety went away and if they did he was meant to be with me....when, of course, S and me wanted answers and remorse, he decided (apparently) that it was easier to go back to OW as his feelings of anxiety hadn't gone away...when S asked him how do you feel now? H replied, I still have feelings of anxiety but "I'm VERY HAPPY" yeah like!!! I have had NC at all since July this year....
For now I believe it is best.....
Love and hugs
Foxy xxx
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Thanks everyone,
The good thing is he told me that he has had no contact with her for over 2 weeks. And I know he doesn't have those kind of feelings for her. I just know he is full withdraw from whole situation so I'm thankful for that and he said he doesn't want to go anywhere he is where he wants to b but it's hard to hear the rest although he has told his mom in the past that he wants to b with me I guess it's just part of the withdraw seeing as though we say maybe 20 words in a week and he just likes to sit outside or sit and play games on his phone. BTW I did check his phone to make sure their has been no contact and there hasn't been!!! ;D
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Smitty
He is frightened of the future and scared about what you feel and what he has done. His instinct is to run and hide back in the tunnel. He is hackering for the infatuation part of replay with OW and like all relationships the bad parts are getting lost in the fog.
Although he knows he wanted to come home the feelings of longing and msising the OW are throwing him off kilter but if he hasbn't made contact with OW that is really good.
Continue to give him space and time. Take all pressure off him and validate his feelings. Let him feel the peace and calm between you. Let him see the new you.
I know this is hard but each day is a new one.
xx
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Thanks Just,
The good thing is he knows about the rush bc he said he is a different person and he knew a while ago that he would think back to the beginning bc he wanted that feeling back, but he said he knows that the feelings in the beginning were not real and he said the other day that he is no longer looking for that rush which is good that he realizes the difference. That is a positive he said if this was 8 months ago he would of ran again but he is in a different place and he knows he is going through something. He said this has nothing to do with OW it's about him and I.
I agree I'm just going to keep to myself and do my thing and leave him alone.
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He said this has nothing to do with OW it's about him and I
I think he is projecting his insecurities onto your new relationship.
IMO at the moment he is really craving that buzz and the further he gets away from it in OW withdrawal the harder it is for him. You know when you grieve each day is worse as you get further away from the one you lost. I think that is where your H is now. He is confused because he doesn't feel the infatuation hormones he felt with OW even though he knows they were wrong. As she gets further away from him he is panicking whether he has made the right decision.
I agree I'm just going to keep to myself and do my thing and leave him alone. Do you remember at the beginning when all you wanted to do was turn the clock back to make things better, that's where he is. Remember OP's squirrel and how you have to be still at times and quiet and then small steps forward. That's what you are doing. But don't forget to be approachable and friendly when he initiates contact.
I know this is so hard. When they come home we think life will get soooo much better and the work is harder.
xx
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I hear you Just,
The only thing I disagree with is that he is panicking if he made the right decision about OW, I know he know's he made the right decision about OW. He has told me so much about OW and how bad it was and the relationship he wanted out way back in April, he just felt so guilty. I do agree that he is confused about the infatuation feelings bc that was a big deal from day 1 he didn't understand why he didn't have those feelings for me anymore after 23 yrs. He has told me he knows that those infatuation rush is not real but I know since he is not feeling that infatuation with me he thinks he feels nothing for me. I do believe him 100% that it has nothing to do with OW.
Thanks for the advice Just about being approachable and friendly that is something I have to remind myself constantly!
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Yesterday was pretty good When I came home from Church my had did the backyard, cleaned the chairs in the living room cleaned the laundry room and hung up the Clothes line in the laundry room. That is good bc for the last 2 weeks he hasn't done much of anything except sit around, not talk and just play games on his phone. But sat evening and Sunday he was talkative engaged with the Family, and started doing household things that needed to b done. He even fixed our fountain in the front and made The water bright blue. That is stuff the old H would of def done he always took care of household stuff and loves his pond and fountain. It seems to b moving along and looking up every day!!!! :)
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OK well today has not been so good. U know they come back and I know they are different and I know he is still not done with this Crisis, but if he stay's the way he is I wont b here I can tell u that. He does talk to me a little bit more but all he does is drink beer chew tobacco, and play those stupid games on his phone. I don't like this guy at all. That is the crap he did at OW's and it was great bc she is an alcoholic and she now chew's too. Isn't that precious!
Well I don't think so at all and on top of all that my D19 and her fiance are living here now and my H seems to be 19 also. My D fiance doesn't have a job he does nothing but make messes eat my food and play's video games. He's got to go and he will. but my H seems to really like him bc he think's my H is so COOL. Or bc my H gives him beer and lets him chew his tobacco. Well what H doesn't realize is bc he is now drinking the beer and chewing my H is not going to b getting more and blowing more money. I don't think so, The fiance is going and if H stay's this way so is he.
I am hoping and praying that this is for now and when he moves along in this Crisis he won't b this loser wanna be 19 year old alcoholic.
Not with me I want an adult not another child. OW can have him this way.
although h doesn't have anything to do with OW I would hope that he would stop acting like her too.
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Smitty
Your H is very early in his return. You are starting to push but need to sit back and find more patience. Reread HB's stages. You may or maybot find your H but understand the process. But if your H is acting like a 19 year old that is one of his demons he needs to deal with. If you don't let him the 19 will reappear another time to be addressed.
Towards the end of the crisis they go back to close the doors from where they have come and that inlcudes the replay door.
Keep watching and digging for more patience. This part is very difficult and can take another 2 years until your real H appears with backwards and forwards.
xx
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Smitty - my H at 21 months post BD is putting out the feelers about coming home.
I couldn't even imagine having him here at 12mths post BD (is that right?)
I remember what he was like then. Such a kid - it was very difficult to reconcile him with the person that I knew before. Our teenage sons called him the douche bag. They were so embarrassed. This teenage stuff seems to be finally waning quite a bit now.
Hang in there. JA is right. This will need enormous patience.
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Thanks Kiki and Just,
I hear you and yes it is and will b tough. I am not saying anything to H or asking anything. I just vent to u guys and my sister. He isn't aware that he is driving me crazy I just put on the Happy Face ;D and keep going.
Yes Kiki 12 months almost to the day of BD 10/05/2010. I know he is in withdrawal but that part does seem to b getting better.
Just thanks so much I didn't think about them going back so that door will close. I am so grateful that my H and I are in the place we R, and I know it will get better last night was one of those nights that I just wanted to b over.
you are right he does go all over the place though in the beginning he would hide in the closet or bathroom to change or get in the shower and at night he would b under the cover to take off his shorts to sleep (he sleeps in his boxer briefs), but the other day he came into the bathroom where I was doing my hair walked in his briefs and then just dropped them to get in the shower he would of gotten into the shower to take them off. Now for the last 2 days or so he is back to hiding and that day he slept under the covers he has been sleeping on top with another blanket. Well he has went back to that.
It's all a little comical at times but sometimes I feel like I have the plague.
I am digging deep sooooooo Deep.
Thanks to all of u I can vent here then put on the happy face and keep going!!!!!!!!!1
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Smitty
I hear you and yes it is and will b tough. I am not saying anything to H or asking anything. I just vent to u guys and my sister. He isn't aware that he is driving me crazy I just put on the Happy Face and keep going.
Venting here is the right thing to do. I think as they move along their tunnel our patience starts to crack and it does get harder to detach and let it happen. But you're hanging in there and doing a good job ;)
xx
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Oh my.... help me!!! 21 months BD and others more... I am at what 8... *sigh* Tic toc... OP says time is on our side.. tick tock... tick tock... crap did an other hour just pass... Guess I will be seeing you in a other... whats 21 minus 8? Oh yeah 13 did I carry the 1... oh wait this is not LONG division... With all your help.... I will still be here in 13 months... All of your courage is inspiring!!!
Thanks
Me.
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Oh my.... help me!!! 21 months BD and others more... I am at what 8... *sigh* Tic toc... OP says time is on our side.. tick tock... tick tock... crap did an other hour just pass... Guess I will be seeing you in a other... whats 21 minus 8? Oh yeah 13 did I carry the 1... oh wait this is not LONG division... With all your help.... I will still be here in 13 months... All of your courage is inspiring!!!
LOL Ziggee - go and eat some more of that soup. That'll fill in 15 minutes ........ ;)
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I hear you Ziggee, if only there was a time machine, we could speed along into the future at least to know how long this is gonna take! It's the not knowing that does my head in!
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Oh my.... help me!!! 21 months BD and others more... I am at what 8... *sigh* Tic toc... OP says time is on our side.. tick tock... tick tock... crap did an other hour just pass... Guess I will be seeing you in a other... whats 21 minus 8? Oh yeah 13 did I carry the 1... oh wait this is not LONG division... With all your help.... I will still be here in 13 months... All of your courage is inspiring!!!
LOL Ziggee - go and eat some more of that soup. That'll fill in 15 minutes ........ ;)
We dont have a microwave.... so I would have to heat it on the stove... and pea soup burns really easy so it will have to be real slow... just heating it should take... oh 1/2 hour. THen if I over heat it... I will have to wait for it to cool. I can kill an hour just having peo soup. Then I can take 1/2 hour to write about it.... then twenty minutes fixing the quotes and the typos I can see... Only to find out next morning.... I can't even read it.
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Hey Ziggee,
My H came back almost 12mo to the day. He is now in the OW withdraw phase and moving into acceptance. Everybody is different and no Crisis is the same, don't look at everybody else's time just focus on u and let it go I know it is hard but u just have to let him go. It was the best thing I did and I did that 2 mo in. I just let him b and just focused on me and my Kids. That is the best thing u can do for u and your H.
I'm so sorry that u r here but u will get through this and u will b a stronger better person bc of it. I started thinking of all the good that has come out of this and I'm not saying I would do this again or even want to but there has been so much good and positive that came from this situation that I am grateful (in some way). If u can look at the good that is and will come of this and don't worry about your H he will get through this and so will u and u will b better and have a better marriage if u both choose to. Keep positive have faith and if u Pray, Pray like there is no tomorrow.
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Smitty-
ExH hasn't been modest about nudity at all- never has been.
I find it quite amusing as that particular trait of his hasn't changed. We haven't ML yet but he has no qualms about parading around naked in front of me or sleeping with me with nothing on.. ::) :o
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Smitty2929
Thanks... guess like WP got to hear things over and over and will need to hear it again... in the future...
Me
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I know Inthis,
it's funny how some things change and some stay the same. I don't know what my H's deal is.
Although last night was one of the worst night's I have had since January.
I had a talk with my D19 yesterday morning and was telling her that her Fiance doesn't need to b drinking and chewing. One thing is he is not paying a thing to live here or contribute to anything my food bill has doubled as well as other bills. If he wants to chew he needs to buy his own. I told her that H is buying it and it is expensive so her Fiance doesn't need to b drinking or chewing, and he doesn't need to b drinking at all bc he's only 19. I told her that she knew her dad was going through something and this isn't helping. Her fiance needs to get a job and help financially as he was told from day 1.
Well let me tell u typical D she is very manipulative and exaggerates EVERYTHING! She acted fine when I was talking to her and happy go lucky after. I should of known she would do what she did. She waited for H to come home and I wasn't there so she preceded to tell him that I told her that her Fiance couldn't have any beer or chew bc H is spending way to much money and he is messed up in the head so he is not aware of the money he is spending. WOW not even close to what I said.
So H waited until I got home to tell me that he can do what he wants and if he wants to give him Beer and chew that's his Fing business bc it's his money and it's none of my business. and I am never to talk to the kids about him bc he is not messed up in the head. Well I tried to tell him that is not what was said exactly. But he just told me to shut up then shut the F up. That I was a liar I always have been that I have been talking Sh@* through this whole thing and he knows all the crap I have been saying. I told him whatever it doesn't matter what i say I am wrong he said yes u r. Then went outside to have more beer. I was in the middle of cooking dinner when this happened.
My D19 and D15 were sitting there the whole time and I asked my D19 if she was satisfied with the situation, she just smiled and said Dad said when he left you would try and talk to me. I told her I will talk to her whenever and wherever I want and if she wants to talk in front of her dad fine with me she went outside I did too and she again lied and started saying things that I didn't say. I just said nothing then turned around and said u guys are totally right. They said yup we are.
I went in the house to finish dinner and btw was crying the whole time my D19 came in the house smiling and laughing at me.
she has done stuff like this during this whole thing to get H to get her and do whatever she wants and it works bc he feels so guilty he just does whatever and talk crap about me.
My D15 was so upset I just finished dinner and went to my room where I was crying so hard I couldn't breath then started throwing up. My d15 was trying to help me and do whatever she could, and I felt so horrible for her I kept telling her I was fine and she needed to go do her homework. Well needless to say while I was throwing up and couldn't hardly breath my D19 her Dad and fiance were in the living room having a great time laughing it up.
Then this morning I got up I didn't clean a damn thing just cleaned up my mess and got ready. My H avoided me like the plague then told me that he needed 20 dollars. Bc his mom gave me 400 and him 100 well his 100 was gone he had to pick up stuff for the house so H said if u have any of the 400 left bc u blow money I need 20. I fell for it that passive aggressive crap and said yeah I blow money on bills food kids. How do u think we are still living in this house with electricity and food ect. He said whatever I know. I said ok then I took the 380.00 I had left put it by his wallet in the bedroom. a while later told him he has all the money so he needs to go get D15 birthday present and her cake ect.
He said I am not doing a Fing thing I work 50 hours a week and u do nothing. I didn't say a word just left. He had such hatred for me I can't stand it.
Well as of now I am not lifting a finger for any of them I will just take care of me and D15 since I don't do a thing they can take care of their own crap. I am done!!!!!!!!!
Btw I told him that he was not going to treat me or talk to me like this. He said I don't treat u like Sh*@ u r crazy!
It's so hard he has such hatred for me all of a sudden the first couple days were great and he was nice now he's totally monster. I know this withdrawal from OW is hard but I have found out it's harder on me than anybody else. If I had somewhere else to go I def would move out with my d15. I am still so sick to my stomach I can't hold anything down.
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Smitty
My one concern is whether your H has ever left replay and is now retreating back into replay behaviour. Just because OW is gone doesn't mean he is further on. I'm not sure. It worries me that he is only 12 months from BD. Can you read the stages again and see if you can find him. There does appear to be a bit of monster about him at the moment.
Which ever way this disrespect to you cannot be allowed. Your D19 is feeding into that and your H isriding on the back of her truculance. I suggest you stop speaking about your H to her. She is lucky to have such a great mom who puts up with her c**p. She is a young woman and acting like a spoilt 14 year old. Blimey you have a house full of them.................
You are going to have to set a strong boundary to pull your H back into line. In the interim I suggest if he is rude and bad mouthing you walk away, leave the room, leave the house and do something else. But the boundaries may cause him to withdraw completely at the moment so it is a tough call.
xx
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Hi Smitty, sorry to hear things are rocky for you. Do you have a nice place in your house you can have just for you? A drawing room, a spare bedroom that can be turned into your own private place?
If you have, make it you safe heaven and go to there when your husband is being rude at you. It will be your husband free space.
Would like to read HB thread as well but don't know how to find it...
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Thanks Just and Anne,
Just no I have followed it to a tee and he is in withdraw from Ow and he has already been through all the other phases he had an awakening at the end of Replay and when he moved into depression/withdrawal I knew exactly when he did. He was a clinger and when he went all of a sudden to not talking to me but once every two weeks from him contacting me everyday and coming by when he could then he wouldn't come by at all I knew he was in Withdrawal.
But I know he has ended the Withdrawal stage bc if u go back and read he opened up to me fully for over a month and told me so much about the R with OW and told me not good things about OW and his feelings. I believe he is in the Withdraw from OW and from what I have read many times it brings out the Anger in them and he def is. I do know for a fact that he has not contacted or had any with OW for almost 3 weeks now. If he was in Replay he would of Ran when we have had the last 3 somewhat fights. In fact he said that but he said he was in a different place now and knows he's going through MLC. If he was in Replay none of those things would of happened at all.
I know 12mo doesnt seem like long to some people but every MLC is different and I have read of a lot of people ending at almost a year exactly. He is right on track but the anger during this OW withdrawal is not fun at all.
I absolutly will not put up with his crap I have no problem telling him and infact I was so tired of it I told him to that I was tired of it and if he didn't like it to leave. He said he didn't want to. So there is no way he is in withdrawal he has no signs of that anymore just and Ass I believe bc of OW withdrawal.
Anne unfortunately I don't I am just hiding out in my bedroom but H doesn't come in until I am asleep he is avoiding me which I have also read happens during the OW withdrawal that H would reject me and b mean and say horrible and random things.
Yes My D19 is totally taking advantage of the sitch and manipulating this to her advantage. Trust me there will b no talk about H at all I don't care what is going on. They are all on their own except D15.
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Smitty.... I'm sorry you had such a rough night.... it's none of my business, but I will comment on what I see here... first of all, it seems you are playing the role of martyr and victim... the person everyone abuses starting with your daughter and her fiancee.... why is he even living there? Your business, but really.... whatever happened to the old "I pay the bills and as long as you live in MY house you will abide by my rules!!" adage??
We have ALL reacted the way you did to your husband's unfair accusations, but they get us NOWHERE!! IF he is truly in OW withdrawal, or ANY withdrawal, you will see monster and it's not easy or pretty.... but YOU will have to toughen up.... EVERYONE IN THAT HOUSEHOLD is counting on YOU!! Yep.... it's not fair and it SUCKS!!
Do NOT give your husband extra money just because he is whining and accusing you of untrue things....my husband thinks EVERYONE has his hand in his pocket, yet HE is the one that spent about $20,000.00 to have his OW fling that is making him so miserable now!! That is money we will NEVER see again... he even said last weekend "Every penny I spent up there was a waste!" ya think???
I would ask you GENTLY and KINDLY WITH LOVE to examine your part in this.... I know it's hard... but the FIXER IN YOU is trying to stay in charge, and that's not good FOR YOU. IF you invite your daughter's boyfriend (cuz in order to be a fiancee in REAL LIFE, he would have to have SOME way of supporting them and some PLAN!!) to live with you, you cannot ASSUME you get to tell them how to live (even though I mentioned it above with the "as long as you live in my house...." bit). If you don't like it, suggest they would be happier under SOMEONE ELSE'S ROOF... uhhhhhh, maybe their OWN!!
Your husband would like to think he has some authority around the household, but he pretty much gave that up when he went off the deep end... HOWEVER, you must STILL respect him as your husband and not try to control or fix him, though he NEEDS it, LOL!!
Now, I wasn't there, and it's not my business anyway... so if my "lecture" is way off base then I hope you will ignore it and forgive me.... one thing I do FIRST whenever I get angry or fight with my husband is look at MY part of it... it's the only part I can control... and a lot of times I see I was just feeling low, or insecure, or picked on and low energy... other times I had to realize I was caught up in self righteousness.... victimhood.... it's good to question yourself! ((hugs)) LG
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Smitty, don't want to make you feel more down, but, like just said, your husband may still be in replay. Mine did come knocking on my door when he was on OW1 withdraw (and, unknown to me at the time, was also already being friendly with OW2). He talked to me about some things and even said OW1 had been a mistake and the wrong way of trying to solve things. That he was a new, better man.
He went back to replay within months and is still lost on it. I haev not seen a new better man at all. One day, maybe...
As for your D19 fiance I think you need to impose boundaries. It is your house. It is not a good thing to have a 19 years old man around drinking and chewing. You already have your hands full with your husband, can you find a away of making the boy go away?...
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Anne this is a link to HB's stages
http://mlcforum.theherosspouse.com/index.php?topic=399.0#lastPost
Smitty
I really hope things settle down for you. I'm not trying to be negative or discouraging but maybe to slightly less positive about where H is would leave you less open to further hurt. If there's one thing I've learned on this forum is we never really know exactly what's going on. :-\
M x
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Dearheart comes and goes where he talks about things and then it slips again.
He could be having awakenings where he realises things but then it's gone again.
Maybe you could prepare food for you an D15 only. Only do yours and her washing.
Cut out the niceties. Remove yourself from them. If they ask why tell them. Do not cry just state it. And then walk away. You are giving them way too much power. Pack their bags and put them out. Your d and her fiancé.
Do not become afraid to stand for you. You deserve better.
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Smitty, It's hard to see where they are when you are in the midst of it. I think here comes a time in replay, near the end, that they can still be in replay but will not necessarily run. They are coming out of it and have made some decisions. I saw this for myself. I'm not saying your H is or is not just coming out of replay. I'm just saying be prepared. Don't forget that stages can and do overlap. You will see elements of the previous and next stages.
There also is a time in Acceptance that they will revisit the previous stages. The way I understand it that would include replay. Given his OW withdrawal it might make sense that he is revisiting that stage at this time. It hurts you, but you can't change it.
Take care of yourself. All of us here are with you.
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Thanks for the reminder that the stages can overlap.
I think it is easy to forget that when we are looking for signs of where they are.
each MLCer is an individual and they are not all going to follow the same pattern.
HUGS
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Ow and he has already been through all the other phases he had an awakening at the end of Replay and when he moved into depression/withdrawal I knew exactly when he did. He was a clinger and when he went all of a sudden to not talking to me but once every two weeks from him contacting me everyday and coming by when he could then he wouldn't come by at all I knew he was in Withdrawal.
But I know he has ended the Withdrawal stage bc if u go back and read he opened up to me fully for over a month and told me so much about the R with OW and told me not good things about OW and his feelings. I believe he is in the Withdraw from OW and from what I have read many times it brings out the Anger in them and he def is. I do know for a fact that he has not contacted or had any with OW for almost 3 weeks now. If he was in Replay he would of Ran when we have had the last 3 somewhat fights. In fact he said that but he said he was in a different place now and knows he's going through MLC. If he was in Replay none of those things would of happened at all.
What you are describing here sounds like OW withdrawal, NOT withdrawal stage.
So you may be correct that REPLAY might be over, however the crisis is NOT over.
Please lower your expectations.
HE still has three or more stages to go through.
Re-read HB's stages again.
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Smitty what you describe is exactly what my H went through in August. It is OW withdrawal and the crisis is far from over. In August H was nuts but towards the end (after losing his job and hitting rock bottom) he finally made a decision not to leave his family. Notice I said leave his family. He came home for the kids and finances, which I am told is pretty typical. I didn't care at the time, I needed him here and not with her. The first 6-8 weeks were weird and rocky and withdrawn. Let him pursue you and keep your detachment. It is hard because one day they seem so normal and the next they are not. Oh we had fights, big ones and he didn't run (which he usually did before.) H has told me things about his relationship with OW, not all good and not all bad. Try to be there to listen, that's the hard part. Be the lighthouse, there is bumpy road ahead of you.
H tells me now that he no longer yearns to see her, be with her etc., but openly admits that he did and it was rough for a few weeks. (Yes that sucks and hurts.)
(((HUGS))) Although this stage is better than replay, it is not easy. Patience is key here and often hard to have because you so want this to be over, but it is not. Now it is two steps forward and little back and there is some more visible progress. Keep posting.
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Thanks everyone for your responses,
Yes I agree that he is in OW withdrawal. It is def not easy!!!! I can tell that he is prob revisiting as he is moving into acceptance. I do know that is where he is I have experienced the Replay withdrawal/depression. I knew exactly when he broke withdrawal and moved forward.
I know this is OW withdrawal and it is so hard but I am doing my thing with D15.
I have made the decision to just take care of me and D15 everyone else is on their own.
The other day I didn't pick up a single thing by the next evening My H cleaned the whole house while D19 and F did not a damn thing.
I would kick them out but H said this is his house too and he is not going to put them out. I was so confused but he talked to his mom and told her that he felt bad and he knows what it's like bc for a year he lived free didn't have to pay a thing so he knows what it's like. Well that's fine I'm not lifting a hand if he likes it he can pick up after them cook for them be their maid bc I quit!
I know he will come through this and so will I it just takes patience prayer and detach and that is exactly what i am doing.
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Sass and Smitty Thanks for all your insights. Fascinating stuff. Patience, detach and prayer Huh? That's the same for all the stages. OP I re read the stages tonight. It was funny i came over here and you were recommending that ;D Great stuff! I like the part with the Archways and Doors.(needs a mini bar) This MLC is a whole different world. :o :o :o :o :o
new thread: http://mlcforum.theherosspouse.com/index.php?topic=2125.0