Midlife Crisis: Support for Left Behind Spouses
Archives => Archived Topics => Topic started by: Mermaid on January 12, 2014, 04:43:39 AM
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So, our spouse is in MLC, or so we think. We've found our way here to this forum and it gives us hope. We learn that this may be a stage, and there is a future which is less bleak and devastating than the one we are going through.
Unlike other sites on MLC, this site gives us things that we can do. We can detach, get a life, learn to live our lives as if they are never coming back, set boundaries, go dark or black so we don't have to deal with the monstrous things they say and do.
We use the stages here as a guide to where they are in their process, and although RCR has given approximate timelines, she has always said that we cannot know how long our own spouse will take, or even if the solution is happy ever after.
So, with time, people talk of nudging their spouse through the tunnel, etc. as if they could really affect the crisis of the other. As if we can affect them in some way.
I don't think that the objective of our actions should be to try and affect them. What we do is to protect and improve ourselves (and our children). If anything we do is intended to get them to react, it is manipulative and controlling. Time and time again LBS on this site have been reminded that going dark or black is to PROTECT OURSELVES.
On the other hand, sometimes LBS have made a move to stop their MLCer having access to them until they stop their abuse/ affair etc. These are boundaries. Setting these SOMETIMES has the effect of waking up the MLCer to what they might lose. Sometimes it has the opposite effect. The point is, whatever we do has to be the right thing for us, and not because we think we can control the other.
Our behaviour can affect those around us. Communication techniques (active listening, validation) can improve mutual understanding (but is not always possible). Being happy, content with ourselves and our lives, is inspirational and attracts others to us. But we are most able to affect others when our motives are pure.
Moreover (this has been said elsewhere), most of us are not qualified to know whether this really is a MLC. There are other explanations for behaviour change, depression, affairs, or bad behaviour. The strength of this site is in its sage advice on how to behave, which is good no matter what the cause of our spouse's behaviour.
So, no matter what we think is wrong with our spouse, no matter what stage in MLC we think they are at, our actions should NEVER be aimed at controlling them or manipulating them for our benefit. We shouldn't even act like that with our own children, for whom we are responsible, and much less so for another
Some people think they can or should try to push their MLCer along. This is ultimately dangerous because we don't know the outcome and a solution for one is not necessarily a solution for another, and is a controlling behaviour. It's also a loss of the opportunity to work on ourselves, the most important aspect of all.
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Many, many years ago, at the start of this "crisis" a priest who I am close to told me "Love must be free".
No matter what the "diagnosis" is for the breakdown of my marriage, I cannot, nor would I want to even if I could, force someone to live a life that they do not want.
I believe that my husband has always been ambivalent about marriage, children, family life versus having the "freedom" to do as he pleases. He has told me, and I believe this to be true, that he has prayed to have feelings for me and he apparently does not have the feelings that are needed to remain married to me.
This may be MLC script, or it may actually be true. Perhaps leaving our marriage was the most honest thing that he could have done, feeling the way he does. For those feelings are very real.
What I think the LBSer can do, and RCR writes extensively about this, is to show their spouse unconditional and agape love, if the LBSer wants their spouse back someday. Now, more than ever, he must see me as I truly am, not pretending to be something that I am not. He must know and accept xyzcf, her good points and her bad points if a marriage between us is ever going to work. I have no control over what he wants in life.
Any "techniques" or "interventions" to coerce him back into my life would be totally wrong IMHO. The only thing that I personally consider to be a valid method to be used, is to pray for him to have a change of heart. I believe in prayer, I believe in miracles and I believe that God would want our marriage to be rebuilt. So, I place my worries, my fears, my anxieties and my desire to "do" something, anything to change this empty place, in God's hands.
St. Monica prayed for 16 years for the conversion of her husband and son, St. Augustine. I do not put a time limit on how long I am standing, for I have already answered that question and it is the right answer for me.
Thank you Mermaid for opening up this discussion that all we can do is to work on ourselves, to embrace life fully, to find joy and peace and if we want, and they someday exit the "tunnel" be willing to forgive and work together to build something new.
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So true... You can't fix someone else's crisis.
What I found in the articles to be spot on was validation. I listened as a caring friend and validated what he was saying. As hard as it is not to add our own feelings or opinions, any of that is seen as manipulation and control by our spouse. They truly have to get there on their own. They have to make their own mistakes which are 100 percent their own choices. If we actively try to push and prod, no matter if it is with good intentions, they may do the opposite because we think that way so they think if they do what we are saying, they are giving in to our manipulation a again. Their rewriting of history has them thinking that they have always done what we wanted instead of making their own decisions. We make mistakes along the way, just like they do. It is like dealing with a rebellious teenager who thinks you are the parent trying to stifle their independence.
Until they see we don't need them and are not making their choices for them, they actively blame us, the one who cares the most. My H said it was my own independence and his realization that he wasn't being respectful with me along with realizing that he was hurting everyone in the family, that finally brought him out of the fog and to stop compartmentalizing. This was something he had to do on his own and figure out on his own.
He hated my boundaries, but I told him they were to protect me. If he chose to go against that, it was his choice and his responsibility. He hated hearing me tell him that it was his choice and his responsibility, but after a year and a half of being blamed for his choices, I had enough and was in a place where I was no longer scared of his reactions or what the outcome would be. The kids and I had protected his feelings for long enough, and I wasn't going to be that way anymore. It took a lot of me figuring myself out to get there, as well as dealing with my own FOO issues.
You live, you learn.
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We must also trust the process our MLCers go through. There is no short cut no diversions only straight through the middle learning as they go along. As a development stage we can’t manipulate them nor push them through as Mermaid says. That inevitably works against us as we feed into their justification etc to leave. I learnt very early on that H had to find peace and calm when he visited home as that was the opposite of what OW offered him. Don’t get me wrong. That doesn’t include pursuing and I am most certainly emotionally detached from his bad behaviour as he tries to move forward. He also gets the time and space this journey demands.
Throughout this journey I see a man in emotional turmoil standing on the abys and then pulling back with the help of OW. He hurts and is hurting as he sees his whole world change and not for the better.
What we as LBS must understand too is we have our own journey to complete. The old marriage has things in it that we really don’t want in a new relationship. Having an affair is totally the MLCers choice and a bad one. But two were in the marriage and there will be aspects that we fed into and allowed to grow. Often these areas are hidden until we start to move along our own journey. As LBS a lot of us got lost in the wife and mother title and role. We lost who we are. As our H/W go on their journey then our time has come to find ourselves again and become who we want to for us not our H/W. Remember happiness is within. It’s not titles or positions in life that make us happy. It is the love of the people around us whether family or friends.
If we have a faith then it is also time for that to evolve and deepen as God guides us and supports us through what can only be described as the most traumatic episode of our lives through abandonment, cheating, lying, manipulation and blame. He is there in the dark of the night and the brightness of the morning.
OP always says time will become our friend. Initially, like all Newbies, I never believed that. But now I see that without this journey I wouldn’t be who I am today, happy and content with the person I have become. I pray H gets there too.
Good discussion Mermaid. Thanks for bringing it here :)
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Just one other thing to ponder on when we look at the influences in the crisis is that of the OP. No matter how much of a band aid label they are given here on this site, they are influencing our spouse. Manipulating and controlling is what they do and I don't believe our spouse needs a second person. They will work that out in time.
I have often thought before I open my mouth, what is my motivation here and nine times out of ten I have ended up shutting it again, because my motivation was about me and me only. That took time to work on that one I admit.
My h already believes that he has lost everything, but it makes no difference. Nothing is going to sipped up his change of life other than himself. We are merely collateral damage and the sooner we accept that the sooner we can breath again.
Sd
X
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I have a question. I read, understand and agree with all that has been said. It has been over 3 years since B dropped.
My x has not had any affairs or girlfriends. I know he was actively looking for a long time, checking out dating sites, etc. but it just never happened. I don't think he does that anymore.
The longest we have gone without seeing each other is 2/3 weeks..and that was a year ago.
Anyway, my dilema is we see each other almost every day. Get along like we did when we were first married. My X goes no where without me and we enjoy each others company.
He has falling into a depression for months and seems to be working his way out of his crisis a bit, but has a long way to go. Still has not looked inside for answers.
Isn't there EVER a right time to ask a few questions? Nothing major...maybe like, what do you feel our relationship is? Do you feel just a friendship towards me?
I have done everything I can to have no R talks with him over all this time, but I'm starting to feel the need for some kind of "light" conversation.
Is it crazy to want some kind of answers from him now? Sometimes I truly feel I am just wasting my time wondering if this will ever go anywhere.
I have been asked out a few times but always felt it was not fair to another person when I still have hope and still love my (x)husband, but I'm not a young woman anymore.
I'm probably not explaining myself very well. I guess I'm just wondering if anyone thinks there IS a time to push things a bit or should I just bite the bullet and keep my mouth shut?
I'd appreciate any comments or advice.
Thunder
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merely collateral damage
From my point of view I was adamant that I didn't want to be collateral damage even in the depths of my despair at BD. I knew I would stand up, move forward and live my life for me.
But you are right. There is collateral damage that most of us couldn't avoid, mostly financial.
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Thunder, I have reposted your question and replied to it on your own thread. I hope this is ok. I think that this being a discussion topic is more for our input into whether or not we can do anything to influence the outcome of their crisis, not so specifically for asking a question about your own situation.
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Nooooo!
Pretty sure I dragged my h out in the very early stage back in 2005, I don't regret it in that my sons were younger and it meant he was around until they were young adults but really I do believe they must go right through that damn tunnel and best left to get on with it.
Looking back life continued just fine after he came back after 8 or 9 weeks away but I can see now that also there was still replay behaviour going on, maybe mildly but it was there.
At times I felt we weren't connected completely, I even had wondered myself what it would be like with another, but being a moral person I wasn't about to go and find out, I think I could feel a slight lack of something, attention or whatever I couldn't put my finger on it.
I can of course see it all clearly now, yes he was good fun to be around but there was the underlying childish stuff that was happening which I wasn't recognising but it was building a very slight wedge, we weren't clicking emotionally like we should have been, I only see that now.
The worst was of course in the bedroom, I thought I was going off him myself, course I loved him to bits but what almost 50 yr old wants to be with a teenager in the bedroom. Have to say I like romance not a bloomin marathon lol. Sorry if that was too much information, it wasn't all bad some good infact but, well no thank you mainly.
I am romance low lights and candles person, not a porn star, if you get my meaning.
Anyway let them get through or they might not be done is my motto.
And where is mine at the moment, oh yes he just moved house again not long after another holiday, oh well!!!
x
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Nope. I've tried a couple times a year for 3 years via text, it doesn't work.
Once I stopped trying to interfere or manipulate (such an ugly word but it's true) the situation, the better I felt. What it actually did once I stopped was helped me let go. I am no longer attached to an outcome.
Life, for me, is uncomplicated, simple, and fulfilling.
I would still love to see him come back but my happiness is not dependent on him coming back. If I want my fairy tale ending he will come back already healed, or like we are meeting for the first time. I'm sure that's what it would like anyway after 4 years and counting with NC. I'm certainly not the same person as when he left. Who knows, he may not like once he met me.
He didn't leave necessarily not liking me. He told me 2 days prior, after his third attempt to come back, before he disappeared for the last 4 years, that we were perfect for each other. I agreed.
That was then, this is now. I've changed a lot of my behaviors, not my core being, maybe he won't like me. It doesn't really matter anymore. I like me and that's all that matters. Most people I run into really like me and the ones who have been with me through all this love the new, improved me.
So going back to "should we try and affect their crisis", nope, it only holds us back. I don't think it changes anything with them.
Take care,
Lulu
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As hard as it is not to add our own feelings or opinions, any of that is seen as manipulation and control by our spouse.
This resonates with me. I really do believe that for me, at least, it really is necessary to let go of my own hurt feelings when dealing with him, to make sure that I speak neutrally.
Please don't get me wrong, that doesn't mean not setting boundaries or rolling over and giving him everything he wants. It's rather HOW something is said, rather than the what.
I think the way RCR put it was that we can't change how they respond, but we can change what they respond TO.
Charging neutral, I think the term is.
I hope that makes sense.
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Although I was accused at BD of being a 'manipulator', that is not who/what I am. So, in a way, it is easy for me to stand back and observe.
What I have learnt from here is to validate and I think this has helped me to keep quiet and not offer my opinion on his actions which I used to before :-[
I think my readiness to give him my opinions was what he perceived as manipulation, as pointed out here.
I am with Xyzcf, the only way I can affect my h. is by praying for him and showing him consistent love through my actions when in contact with him.
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I will add here that I spent quite a lot of time in the first years (before the forum existed...) trying to influence things, trying to say things, to explain, to do all sorts of things.
It doesn't work.
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I will add here that I spent quite a lot of time in the first years (before the forum existed...) trying to influence things, trying to say things, to explain, to do all sorts of things.
It doesn't work.
I think a lot of us have done that, T&L. The pain is so great, we think that there must be something we can do!! We may start by crying and begging (I know I did), then we learn that it's about their pain, their unresolved issues, so... we try everything:
Love them more, love them less, create distance, try to close that gap, work on ourselves to become a lighthouse and guide them back to us, or trust god to bring them back.
All of these are understandable, and all have a fatal flaw... our objective is still to influence them. We cannot, and to do so, no matter how indirectly, is manipulative.
The hardest thing to do is to let our MLCer go, completely. That doesn't mean ignoring them (although we may need space), or being unkind, unresponsive, etc. It means realising that we are not responsible for them, have no rights over their choices. It means not obsessing over them, and living our lives without focusing on them, and being happy without them.
The greatest opportunity that this crisis gives us is independent growth. We are responsible for our own happiness, not our spouse. The sooner we see that, the more we grow. The less we think about them, the more we do other things that are important in life, the more we grow.
Of course we should set boundaries so we are not abused.
Of course we can consider ourselves standers if we choose, meaning that we will rebuild our marriage in a healthy way when and if we get that opportunity. But we cannot count on that. There are no statistics about how many MLCers come back. If anyone tells you none of them do, they are lying (we know some cases... ;)). Likewise, if anyone tells you that most of them do, they are inventing. There are no certainties, and even if there were, no one could predict if our errant spouse would be one of them. Yes, the uncertainty feels like it could kill us. I know.
So we must let our MLCer go. Work on ourselves, completely, with the intention of improving only ourself. It will benefit us, and everyone we live with, but our MLCer might never notice. If he/she one day does notice, that will be a new chapter. But if we live our lives scheming what shades of NC will affect them, or obsessed with when they are coming back, or whether they will notice our changes, we are not living our lives at all.
Opinions and comments welcome.
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So we must let our MLCer go. Work on ourselves, completely, with the intention of improving only ourself. It will benefit us, and everyone we live with, but our MLCer might never notice. If he/she one day does notice, that will be a new chapter. But if we live our lives scheming what shades of NC will affect them, or obsessed with when they are coming back, or whether they will notice our changes, we are not living our lives at all.
Agree totally - bit of a challenge as my H still at home nearly 10 months after BD but I'm busy GALing, fab career, brilliant therapist and TBH H is just a lodger, cycling to and from OW but I just carry on as much as I can without him.
I will not include him in my plans for now because this is my life - not his. Mine and I owe it to myself to say with my dying breath - I lived a good life and I loved every minute.
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So we must let our MLCer go. Work on ourselves, completely, with the intention of improving only ourself. It will benefit us, and everyone we live with, but our MLCer might never notice. If he/she one day does notice, that will be a new chapter. But if we live our lives scheming what shades of NC will affect them, or obsessed with when they are coming back, or whether they will notice our changes, we are not living our lives at all.
Agree totally - bit of a challenge as my H still at home nearly 10 months after BD but I'm busy GALing, fab career, brilliant therapist and TBH H is just a lodger, cycling to and from OW but I just carry on as much as I can without him.
I will not include him in my plans for now because this is my life - not his. Mine and I owe it to myself to say with my dying breath - I lived a good life and I loved every minute.
Absolutely brilliant! At first it is easier to have them at home, we don't face the devastation that LBS face with vanishers. But it is harder to detach, harder to work on ourselves, and harder to GAL because the situation looks on the outside like it hasn't changed.
So thank you for showing the way, S&D.
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So frustrating living in same home, sharing daily responsibilities, and watching them destroy what was a good family. It is very hard not to try to make it stop.
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I have simple answer on question in this tread. Whatever we do or not do we actually affecting their crisis. We can be detached completely and still affect their crisis. They are emotionally detached and wanna freedom bu they are actually attached on their old life, means us.
I believe if we are attached on them we prolonging their crisis.
If we aren't attached we also have affect on their crisis because they are attached on us but wont admit that. Case when we defend our boundaries.
Point is that we should live GENUINE our own life without making plots to teach them or make them or push them. If we do that, then we are still attached but wont admit that.
So, whatever You do You will affect their crisis.
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Is it really better when they are vanishers? I don't think so. If feels as if you had a unreal life, memories are there but one feels as if he is living in a witness protection program. Isolated and cut off from the life and person who was your only family in the US. The old life with the man who shared it with you has vanished and one can't reconcile the fact that he is not dead but still alive somewhere living as if it never happened. Most of the times I'm still thinking I'm living with him in my head. The denial is automatic after this trauma. A vanisher leaves with doubt, insecurities and totally destroys our perception of what one believed life was.
It's easier only because they are not interacting with you personally but that is sometimes worse. Being ignored as if there is no feelings whatsoever is worse than arguing or monster behavior. It says: You mean nothing to me and never did because I'm better off without you. than It means that H has no attachment to his past and that leaves a big black hole for the LBS. It makes one question everything and everyone.
My H has stopped communicating with me unless it's practical matters. He wont even answer to my "how are you"" He started that when I came back from Europe in October from visiting my family. I believe that the OW is involved in his decision. I don't have control over what he does and who he heeds to...but I have control over my life....but what is my life? it's hard to figure out now and make sense of it all.
Great thread...thank you.
((hugs)) SW
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Mermaid :)
I'm so glad you have started this thread because for me the self focus, self reflection part of our lives is what is the most important. Our spouses make choices and yes they are still functioning, not incapable human beings. They are making choices that hurt us, tear our lives apart but still they are choices made however difficult to accept by us.
We cannot nor should expect to control another, or want to make them bend to our will. Even though every rational part of us screams out no this is madness…still we must accept that our spouses have the right to order their lives in the way they think they want to. That doesn't mean we agree….we too have the right to argue with that, to put our point of view but ultimately it comes down to finally accepting that for now, possibly for ever, they have made a choice and we for our own sakes will need to have acceptance of what that brings but ensure that our lives are not forever blighted by it….that part is our responsibility.
For me I do not want to "entice"…"make" somehow influence another because it is what I want…tempting though that is. I did try to do that, I believed I could. Finally a point is reached where that struggle has to stop.
I believe we have to accept things as they are, not as we would want them to be. That is hard but worth the effort. I have no ownership of my H, he owns himself and his actions. Depending on how this all goes he will either feel accountable to himself or not. I can only behave in a way towards him that I can account to myself for and not feel lacking. With respect, but with distance, as he has chosen.
I'm sad when I hear that success for an LBS is only measured in terms of reuniting. For me success is feeling able to be, to live whatever happens. To have looked at myself, understood myself more closely, even at times painfully, and then be able to stand up free. Free of need and want, free of expectations and free just to be myself.
I used to be scared of really letting this all go, of imagining a time when feelings fade and I no longer felt the need to be longing and wanting. But it is happening and at times I feel wobbly about it but really that is my old fears doing the talking, my old self wanting, understandably, to hang onto a possibility that makes me feel safer somehow.
It is hard to live alone, it feels scary and in the early days nigh on impossible.
But I do live alone, a thought that at times can still feel surreal but increasingly it is familiar and there is joy in it and sadness too. My H is his own person and has made choices to live in a way he feels is better for him. I can rationalise that and label it and explain it away and some of those explanations will be accurate. I think some of those decisions have been made using distorted thinking, feeling and logic but still they are his.
I can spend years hanging onto his actions, endlessly turning them over, continually defining myself and my future by what he did over 4 years ago, or I can try to move away from that and accept what has happened and learn resilience. Accept his choices and not wonder if those choices will change. That is a matter for him and I will not make myself wait or feel pressured to hang onto feelings just in case. If they leave me, they leave me.
but what is my life? it's hard to figure out now and make sense of it all.
There may never be an answer to the question, Strongwind, or not a complete answer anyway to what life is all about in the new world we inhabit. But that is actually ok. Even in my old life I didn't really have the answer to everything…just thought I did :)
Much love
xxxxxxxxxxxxx
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I'm sad when I hear that success for an LBS is only measured in terms of reuniting. For me success is feeling able to be, to live whatever happens. To have looked at myself, understood myself more closely, even at times painfully, and then be able to stand up free. Free of need and want, free of expectations and free just to be myself.
This I can relate to right now..this is where I am...just happy to be free and be myself.
Thanks for posting voyager!!! I remember you from way back!
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Hi Init :)
I remember you too!! I don't think I've posted this much and read this often in a loooong time so it's good to hear you're feeling well and happy 8)
I see Tsunami has an old timers thread going on I guess I probably qualify, I have got some grey streaks in my viking beard these days, but they do look very fetching :-*
Take best care my dear
xxxxxxxxxxx
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(((((((V))))))
Miss you!
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Awwww S!!!
It's so nice to hear that and I'm going to have a look at what's been happening to you :) I hope it's all positive?
Much love to you
xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
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Just one other thing to ponder on when we look at the influences in the crisis is that of the OP. No matter how much of a band aid label they are given here on this site, they are influencing our spouse. Manipulating and controlling is what they do and I don't believe our spouse needs a second person. They will work that out in time.
I have often thought before I open my mouth, what is my motivation here and nine times out of ten I have ended up shutting it again, because my motivation was about me and me only. That took time to work on that one I admit.
My h already believes that he has lost everything, but it makes no difference. Nothing is going to sipped up his change of life other than himself. We are merely collateral damage and the sooner we accept that the sooner we can breath again.
Sd
X
Superdog, this is exactly where I am now. OW is extremely controlling and manipulative and H still does not see it.
I too, have to think before I say something when he is here, then shut my mouth knowing it is also about what I want. Very difficult to do.
What I notice on him he is not as "well-kept" as he always was...he was an immaculate dresser and now he is looking more like the lifestyle of the OW (CZ Republic farm life).
I want to point out to him if he has really looked closely in a mirror lately but keep quiet instead.
He must see this on his own, I understand that now. He must go on his journey alone, I understand that now too. I see glimpses of the old H where I think maybe if I push him a bit back into reality it will help...but now is not the time. In May he will have been involved with OW for 2 years....hoping for that 2 yr schedule where OW starts looking like a normal woman and not his fantasy woman on a pedestal.
He also feels he has lost everything and the only way to go is in her direction. But he is unhappy, a sad person who is empty inside...I hope one day he sees the way back to me...
SSG