Midlife Crisis: Support for Left Behind Spouses
Archives => Archived Topics => Topic started by: Stillpraying on January 30, 2014, 10:48:56 PM
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Another great article by Rick Reynolds (who was the betrayer) from Affair Recovery:
https://www.affairrecovery.com/newsletter/founder/betrayal-and-forgiving-infidelity-the-gift-of-forgiveness?utm_source=Article%20of%20the%20Week&utm_campaign=a683beafdb-aotw_01_30_2014&utm_medium=email&utm_term=0_ba782628b7-a683beafdb-312831325
Forgiving Infidelity: The Gift of Forgiveness
Long ago when I was first starting out in business, I had a friend who abused and misused me. The circumstance was simple. After committing to partner with me on a business plan, he told me he had found a more promising partner, took my idea and ran. In the blink of an eye, I was on the outside, crushed by the fickle state of relationships. What I felt then were the same base emotions many experience when first discovering infidelity (although the intensity of course pales in comparison to what Stephanie experienced with my own betrayal 34 years ago). At first I felt devastated and alone. I wondered what was wrong with me that he would choose another partner? My pride felt destroyed and shame washed over me like a roaring river. Feelings of inadequacy and insecurity were my constant companions, and although I was very young, I knew enough to understand I hated what I felt and wanted nothing to do with him, or the feelings now associated with him. Would I ever find a partner I could trust? Would anyone ever want to work with me again? Similar to forgiving infidelity, I didn’t know where to start.
Then I began to catch my emotional breath and gain perspective. No one was going to treat me that way. I found that each time I rode by his house anger flooded my soul. I imagined hurting him in the same way he’d hurt me. I'd ignore him when we met in public. If we were both outside, I'd move to the other side of the street. If I encountered him in the store, I'd leave. If I saw him at church, I'd move to the other side of the room and pretend he wasn't there. I wanted to make sure he paid for what he'd done. I was going to make sure that I would never be treated that way again. If someone had suggested that I forgive him, I would have laughed, cursed or even thought them insane. In my mind he didn't deserve forgiveness. He deserved death, pain and suffering. The rage I felt was seductive in many ways, but not at all helpful and provided no real comfort. I wasn't interested in getting even - I wanted to get ahead. I was sure that the antidote to bitterness was revenge.
I find that to be a common belief. The incredible pain of the betrayal may create a near impossible situation for the betrayed. To forgive or not to forgive is where almost every betrayed spouse ends up. Overcome with a myriad of emotions, the mind of the betrayed is maxed out with paralyzing questions of whether or not to forgive. If you forgive and give your mate what they want, what will keep them from doing it again? Will they have suffered enough or even long enough to discourage them from doing it again? Bitterness and anger are the weapons used to inflict the pain necessary to discourage future indiscretions. By not forgiving infidelity, betrayed spouses may even notice their mate working harder to reconcile and gain forgiveness. For many, granting the gift of forgiveness is their last point of control. How can you maintain safety once you release your anger and bitterness?
What we fail to realize due to the overwhelming and practically incapacitating pain, is that forgiveness is a gift you give yourself. This is one of those issues where the teachings of Jesus are very clear. Forgiveness is not optional, not even when it comes to forgiving infidelity. It is not for the benefit of the betrayer, but rather for the benefit of the offended that forgiveness is given. I learned this concept early on as a young man, yet the lesson has stayed with me for decades. I discovered that my unforgiveness affected me far more than my friend. As long as I held a grudge, he had control of my life. When I saw him, I had to alter my plans to make sure he knew I was still angry. I lost my peace. Just the very sight of him stirred deep emotions of hatred and ruined my day. It stole my joy. Nothing made me more miserable than seeing him living well while I still suffered. My unforgiveness served no good purpose other than to harm me, and in reality, I had already been harmed enough. Unforgiveness kept me blind to anything but my anger and the injustice I felt. If I was to heal, I needed to see clearly.
Now, don’t think for a moment I'm at any level alluding to the fact that forgiving infidelity is quick or cheap. In fact, it's far more than the offender deserves. If I had this much trouble mustering forgiveness for a business partner-someone I had committed no more than a few months and some money too-I can’t even imagine how much more difficult it is to forgive an unfaithful spouse, someone who vowed “till death do us part.” Again, though, it is not for their sake that we forgive. We forgive for God's sake, and for our own benefit and ultimate recovery. Bitterness and unforgiveness will never bring peace or joy and will most certainly frustrate any sense of hope for reconciliation and restoration. They are the poison I take to kill another.
I'm also not saying that forgiving infidelity is synonymous with trust or reconciliation. I'm not even saying that the anger and hurt should be gone. The forgiveness I'm writing about is between you and God, where you (like Jesus) say “Father forgive them, they don't know what they're doing”. It may seem as though they should be aware of what they are doing but in reality, it’s part of the fog they are enveloped in. They are just not in touch with the magnitude of what their choices have done, or are doing to you. Nevertheless, the most important type of forgiveness is about releasing them to God and allowing Him to forgive them through you. This is to set yourself free, not your mate.
If you are the betrayer, please don't use this to say to your mate “You have to forgive me”. That's between them and God, and you demanding your spouse to forgive you will only intensify their feelings of hurt, pain and anger. In fact, if you feel you need your mate’s forgiveness in order for you to be ok, then I'd like to invite you to consider the possibility that your mate may be your god and their approval just might be out of balance in your own life. Those from whom we seek to gain forgiveness in order to find peace, or to relieve our fears, are the ones who we actually look to in order to fulfill us. For the betrayer, what this normally reveals is that they fear people far more than they fear God. If you have been able to receive God's forgiveness and to live for Him, then whether or not your mate forgives you will not affect your peace. If you've received the forgiveness you need from God, then you'll be free to assist your mate in finding healing rather than pressuring them to forgive you for your own benefit.
Forgiveness is one thing when someone has hurt our feelings or let us down. It feels like a completely different prospect when one has experienced a spouse’s betrayal. For those who subscribe to the Christian worldview, God doesn’t really make it optional. One of the ways that I look at forgiveness is as a process, an event, and then a process on the other side. I believe we must sit down and prayerfully consider what it is we are really forgiving. Numerous losses are experienced with betrayal: loss of the idea of who are mate is, loss of hope for the future, loss of friendships – the list goes on and on. Ultimately, it involves no longer holding the other in indebtedness to us for what they have done. One definition of forgiveness is “Giving up all hope of having a better past.” The event can be freeing for us. The process on the other side of the event is to remember I have forgiven the particular offense when bad feelings pop into my mind, or when the person does something else hurtful in the present.
I realize that there is much more to be said on this crucial subject than can fit in this brief article, so if you have questions, please feel free to submit them to my Q & A. If you desire the freedom that forgiveness provides, but can’t wrap your mind or your heart around the concept, join EMS Online today. It will help you walk through the process as a couple and show you what it looks like to forgive and be forgiven.
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I dug these posts out; they are by Bewildered, on the first "Guilt vs Remorse" thread. I hope it is OK to copy them here, I won't be offended if moderators deem it inappropriate. : From post 141 on that thread:
Quote from a leading mental health specialist -
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Nearly everyone has been hurt by the actions or words of another. Perhaps your mother criticized your parenting skills, your colleague sabotaged a project or your partner had an affair. These wounds can leave you with lasting feelings of anger, bitterness or even vengeance — but if you don't practice forgiveness, you might be the one who pays most dearly. By embracing forgiveness, you can also embrace peace, hope, gratitude and joy. Consider how forgiveness can lead you down the path of physical, emotional and spiritual well-being.
What is forgiveness?
Generally, forgiveness is a decision to let go of resentment and thoughts of revenge. The act that hurt or offended you might always remain a part of your life, but forgiveness can lessen its grip on you and help you focus on other, positive parts of your life. Forgiveness can even lead to feelings of understanding, empathy and compassion for the one who hurt you.
Forgiveness doesn't mean that you deny the other person's responsibility for hurting you, and it doesn't minimize or justify the wrong. You can forgive the person without excusing the act. Forgiveness brings a kind of peace that helps you go on with life.
What are the benefits of forgiving someone?
Letting go of grudges and bitterness can make way for compassion, kindness and peace. Forgiveness can lead to:
Healthier relationships
Greater spiritual and psychological well-being
Less anxiety, stress and hostility
Lower blood pressure
Fewer symptoms of depression
Lower risk of alcohol and substance abuse
Why is it so easy to hold a grudge?
When you're hurt by someone you love and trust, you might become angry, sad or confused. If you dwell on hurtful events or situations, grudges filled with resentment, vengeance and hostility can take root. If you allow negative feelings to crowd out positive feelings, you might find yourself swallowed up by your own bitterness or sense of injustice.
What are the effects of holding a grudge?
If you're unforgiving, you might pay the price repeatedly by bringing anger and bitterness into every relationship and new experience. Your life might become so wrapped up in the wrong that you can't enjoy the present. You might become depressed or anxious. You might feel that your life lacks meaning or purpose, or that you're at odds with your spiritual beliefs. You might lose valuable and enriching connectedness with others.
How do I reach a state of forgiveness?
Forgiveness is a commitment to a process of change. To begin, you might:
Consider the value of forgiveness and its importance in your life at a given time
Reflect on the facts of the situation, how you've reacted, and how this combination has affected your life, health and well-being
When you're ready, actively choose to forgive the person who's offended you
Move away from your role as victim and release the control and power the offending person and situation have had in your life
As you let go of grudges, you'll no longer define your life by how you've been hurt. You might even find compassion and understanding
So as Voyager says ...
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This reminds me of the old dilemma, forgiving, but wanting to have some sort of accountability from the MLCer. How often do we want them to say sorry, how many times do we want to see acts of contrition? And if the LBS hasn't been able to forgive and let go of anger, will that be something expected from the returning MLCer for ever? Timing is essential here too, until the MLCer is ready, holding to account might make us feel better temporarily but won't have the impact we are looking for.
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SO how do you forgive and deal with the possible omission of obvious remorse?
again from the experts view point (not mine but has helped me) !!
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What happens if I can't forgive someone?
Forgiveness can be challenging, especially if the person who's hurt you doesn't admit wrong or doesn't speak of his or her sorrow. If you find yourself stuck, consider the situation from the other person's point of view. Ask yourself why he or she would behave in such a way. Perhaps you would have reacted similarly if you faced the same situation. In addition, consider broadening your view of the world. Expect occasional imperfections from the people in your life. You might want to reflect on times you've hurt others and on those who've forgiven you. It can also be helpful to write in a journal, pray or use guided meditation — or talk with a person you've found to be wise and compassionate, such as a spiritual leader, a mental health provider, or an impartial loved one or friend. What if I have to interact with the person who hurt me but I don't want to?
If you haven't reached a state of forgiveness, being near the person who hurt you might be tense and stressful. To handle these situations, remember that you can choose to attend or avoid specific functions and gatherings. Respect yourself and do what seems best. If you choose to attend, don't be surprised by a certain amount of awkwardness and perhaps even more intense feelings. Do your best to keep an open heart and mind. You might find that the experience helps you to move forward with forgiveness.
What if the person I'm forgiving doesn't change?
Getting another person to change his or her actions, behavior or words isn't the point of forgiveness. Think of forgiveness more about how it can change your life — by bringing you peace, happiness, and emotional and spiritual healing. Forgiveness can take away the power the other person continues to wield in your life.
and the MLCers role -
What if I'm the one who needs forgiveness?
The first step is to honestly assess and acknowledge the wrongs you've done and how those wrongs have affected others. At the same time, avoid judging yourself too harshly. You're human, and you'll make mistakes. If you're truly sorry for something you've said or done, consider admitting it to those you've harmed. Speak of your sincere sorrow or regret, and specifically ask for forgiveness — without making excuses. Remember, however, you can't force someone to forgive you. Others need to move to forgiveness in their own time. Whatever the outcome, commit to treating others with compassion, empathy and respect./quote]
Hope this may help ?? As (IMO) if you are lucky to have a reconciled relationship - let the MLCer deal with how he/she makes up for what he/she has done by him/herself - actions will show he/she is changing/changed BUT its their choice?
B x
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another:
Forgiveness
“We should not look back unless it is to derive useful lessons from past errors, and for the purpose of profiting by dearly bought experience.”
~ George Washington
So if we the LBS'S have done as RCR says our mirror work, as HB says; learnt the serious lessons for personal growth along our way WE will find forgiveness; which will replace anger, resentment and revenge.
HOW?
UNblock the issues that stop us from moving forward - it is that one thing that’s supposed to be behind us: the past. Our unconscious mind has carefully recorded every little detail of what has happened to us in the past and uses that information to determine what is possible for us in the future. It’s not a conscious choice.
Many of us who have done work in the personal growth arena recognise that our history doesn’t determine our destiny. As that great philosopher ?!! Mick Jagger says,
“The past is a great place and I don’t want to erase it or regret it, but I don’t want to be its prisoner either.”
Still, your unconscious mind drags this past forward and uses it to filter information, form reactions to new situations, and influence our choices. Because it’s an unconscious process, we don’t even know that it’s happening – until we find ourselves sabotaging our best efforts to meet our goals and create change in our lives.
Here’s how it works: Say as a child you were embarrassed by a teacher you liked when making a presentation to your class.
Your unconscious – which is always eager to protect you from harm – makes a note: “Speaking in public is dangerous - you will be embarrassed ” as you go through life -
You may have completely forgotten the incident -- but your unconscious never does! So if you decide to do a little public speaking for PR for yourself or your business, your unconscious makes you think , “Whoa! Not that! It’ll be too painful!”
Of course, your unconscious can’t actually speak/shout etc , so what does it do instead? It makes your palms sweat and your knees shake and might even make you sick to your stomach – whatever it takes to keep you from entering that “dangerous” situation.
BUT weird as this may be ...(psychology training from University days) .....
The other thing about your past is that it never really happened. Actually, it happened but the memory you have of it has been twisted, coloured, and distorted by your immature belief system.
As poet Adrienne Rich put it, “Every journey into the past is complicated by delusions, false memories, false namings of real events.”
Have you ever talked to your siblings or childhood friends about incidents in your distant past? Have you noticed that none of you remembers those incidents exactly the same way? Your unconscious doesn’t carry forward a factual accounting of the events in your history. It carries its own interpretations of events and throws them in front of you whenever it perceives you moving into unknown, unsafe territory.
Forgiveness is an amazing human power and it's worth understanding, when we hold on to our pain, anger or resentment, we are burdened by them. We forgive because we need to lighten our load, and not carry pain forward relentlessly.
Whether it's the Yom Kippur service in Judaism, the redemptive message of Easter or a recovering alcoholic’s commitment to a fearless moral inventory, forgiving and asking for forgiveness is a human blessing.
However - Forgive Does Not Mean Forget: We are told over and over again, that we should forgive and forget. In my opinion, forgiving is sufficient, forgetting may be asking too much, or simply be stupid. After all, if someone hurt you, it’s a good idea to be aware that it could happen again. And if you learned something wise from forgiving someone, it is a good thing to remember how you came to learn the lesson that has proved so valuable.
However - The cost of never considering the possibility of forgiving is that you risk remaining a victim forever – and if you’re not careful, you can assume a victim persona that can impact future relationships and even your children.
So IMO - The ability to truly forgive is a gift. It is not as simple as wanting to forgive or saying that you’re sorry to someone you’ve hurt.
We all wish life was that simple.
If you do the work of forgiveness, you actually mature. Bad things happen to good people all the time. Life is not fair. You can be traumatised, you can be bitter, you can be angry – but you’re better off being realistic and dealing with those you love from a place of emotional clarity.
The past does not have to dictate your future. But, the choice, when possible, is yours.
There is a power to being human. USE IT! - again just IMO , however if you do then IMO forgiveness may be one of our greatest strengths.
Bx
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I am struggling with forgiveness purely because of my physiology. I think loving my husband unconditionally helped me forgive him and helped me see the good in him because the fruit of my love was an improvement in his response toward me and also resulted in him setting higher standards for himself. This was all good.
I forgave him during this whole process, but what is holding me back from believing that I truly forgave him are intrusive thoughts. The affair incident was such a shock to me that it sent me into a PTSD tailspin where my mind continually brings forth different pieces of past events that torment me. If I am able to squash one memory, it brings up another, and so on.
Does forgiveness mean that you stop harping on the past in your own mind and stop seeking answers about why? Or does it mean that you simply relieve the person from hearing about how badly this has affected you? (which is what I did) Does it mean in the here and now you "seemingly" give the person a clean slate - and what does that mean if you don't trust them, is it honestly giving them a clean slate or just the appearance of one?
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This is another article I had saved, I probably got it from here in the first place....
The Selfish Act of Forgiveness
By Dr. Lois Nightingale
Often when we think of forgiveness we think of letting someone, "getting away" with something or, "getting off scott-free". Forgiveness is not about ignoring the fact we were hurt. It is not about setting yourself up to get hurt again. Forgiveness is not reconciliation or changing your mind about what is best for you. Forgiveness is not even something we do to enhance the life of another. It is, in one sense, a very selfish act.
A wise man once said, "Resentment is a poison one takes hoping to harm another."
If we really look at what the lack of forgiveness does to us, we notice the emotional internal pain we inflict on ourselves. Long-held resentment can lead to physical symptoms as well; muscle tension, migraines, high blood pressure, poor concentration, sleep and appetite disturbances, and a suppressed immune system, to name a few.
Another important reason to learn to forgive is as a model for children. Children do as we do, not as we say. If you can't forgive for yourself and your own serenity, then forgiving as a life-lesson for your children may be the reason you need. When children see us do things that are extremely difficult, it makes an impression. Children then believe that they also are able to overcome difficult emotional situations and find the best possible solution for their own peace of mind. Most of the movies and games children are exposed to glorify retaliation and holding grudges. Your real-life modeling can have a great impact on their own ability to forgive and not carry insults and betrayals throughout life.
Forgiving is not endorsing what the offender did, or pretending that consequences aren't deserved. But in forgiving we place the quality and serenity of our own life above what may be warranted for another. It is difficult to put down resentment. It is not in our nature to accept when things are not "fair". Sometimes we fear we will be placing ourselves in vulnerability again if we forgive and try to forget.
Empowering questions we need to ask ourselves are; "Am I willing to give away more of my life to the person who offended me? Do they really deserve all this energy and attention? Do I choose to give them more of my thoughts, energy, passion and focus? What am I taking away from those I love by holding on to this grudge? Who am I really 'making pay' for my anger?"
Hate attaches us to the object of our focus. In one way, resentment is as bonding of an emotion as love. We become emotionally connected to the when we dwell on rage and thoughts of retaliation. The intensity of focus and connection is similar to when we dwell on all the adorable qualities of someone we love. Resentment may be an uncomfortable feeling but it is impossible to completely disconnect emotionally from some one whom you hate and despise. Forgiveness is the knife that can sever that attachment and free up passionate energy to go into your dreams, goals, children, new relationship, new career, etc.
We choose to forgive. No one earns forgiveness. No one "deserves" forgiveness, because we can't turn back time and have the offense (or offenses) not take place. Forgiveness is a decision we make to enhance the quality of our own life.
Forgiveness is not moving our boundaries and allowing the offender to continue to hurt us. We are still responsible to respectfully, assertively and with dignity set our boundaries and care for our emotional and physical safety. For instance, if you have been in a physically abusive relationship and your partner refuses to get treatment or work on anger management skills, forgiveness means "releasing from debt," not moving back in or taking the restraining order off. It does mean not dwelling on what you are "owed", or bringing up how horribly you were treated every opportunity that arises. It means standing outside a victim perspective and asking yourself what things you admire in yourself that kept you alive (caring for children, maintaining the house or a job, establishing friendships, etc). It means giving yourself credit for who you have become for having gone through this experience. It means first forgiving yourself for being in the situation. Then, after you have been kind to yourself for awhile, you will then have the compassion to begin forgiving others.
Forgiveness is a process, is it not an event. In Clarissa Estes' book, "Women Who Run With the Wolves", she describes four phases of forgiving.
The first, is "to forgo-to leave it alone"; this is to take a break from thinking about the other person for awhile. This allows us to gather strength in other areas of life and keeps us from becoming exhausted and immobilized.
A good way to do this is when thoughts of resentment come to mind say, "next", and refuse to dwell on the anger and bitterness. Acknowledge the thought and let it pass on through your mind without "feeding" it.
The second is "to forbear-to abstain from punishing". This is to restrain ourselves from punitive mutterings, gossip or acting in hostile ways. It is to practice the generosity of refraining from retaliation.
When we begin this phase we may need to stop ourselves in mid-sentence, or retract an absolute "no" that we just gave in retaliation for our emotional pain. It is not easy to stop gossiping, whining and "making them pay". Give yourself credit when you notice yourself holding back from participating in these behaviors.
The third, is " to forget-to avert from memory, to refuse to dwell". This is not to have a blank memory, but it is to have the person and events move to the background rather than stay in the foreground of your mind. It is to consciously distract yourself when you start ruminating about the person.
And the fourth, is " to forgive-to abandon the debt". Forgiveness is not surrender. It is a conscious decision to stop harboring resentment, and giving up your resolve to retaliate. It is a decision to take charge of your emotions and choose serenity over hostility and unrest.
To write off the debt takes generosity of spirit. It takes a great deal of self-love and knowing that you are whole and complete without ever having things be "fair," in regards to the one who offended you. To forgive the debt means you are not diminished by the actions of the other. You are powerful and lovable without the repayment of this debt.
A final stage is to give up the right to ever hold the betrayal over the other's head. Giving up the right to ever bring up the subject again. It means you choose to never use it as a weapon again. This completely frees you from the hold of grudges and resentment.
The highest stage of forgiveness, and one that is not always available, is to give compassionate assistance to the person who betrayed you. This doesn't mean placing yourself in physical or emotional danger. Nor does it mean to force yourself on another person, or to give past your point of resentment. What it does mean, is that given an opportunity to provide help, you do so without judgement and with mercy and kindness, remembering the strong centered person you have become.
Ways to start forgiving include, "putting the resentment down for a time". This could be for an hour, a day or a week. But give your mind some time off so you have time to build another identity and have other memories to draw from. When we live in rage and resentment it is difficult to attract kind and loving people to us. Usually who will find us are other angry bitter people, "misery loves company."
As you begin to forgive remember that on no day did you ever wake up and think, "How can I really mess up my life today?" When you understand you have always made the best decisions you could see to make at the time, you will then begin to realize it is also true for all those in your life. Each day we make the best choices we can with the options we see available to us. Sometimes fear, self-doubt, habits, addictions and ignorance narrow our view of what is available. And from that narrowed view painful decisions are often made, things that looked back upon may seem obviously self-defeating.
Forgiveness is an art. It is something we practice daily, from forgiving the driver that cut in front of us, to the injustices inflicted on us by well-meaning but uniformed parents. Making a commitment to ourselves to practice forgiveness, is one of the most powerful ways to bring peace and tranquility into our lives. You can begin sleeping better, having a normal appetite, laughing more, creating spontaneity, and attracting fun-loving people into your life today. All you need to do is take time daily to remind yourself of your commitment to forgiveness.
You can do this by journaling, writing letters you never send, meditating, praying, walking in nature, participating in group support, talking with a friend, reading books or listening to inspirational tapes. Finding ways to rejuvenate spiritually will also help remind you there is a bigger order to the world, you are not alone, and you are important, safe and protected. Even if you have never considered yourself a forgiving person you can begin changing your self-definition today.
Remember, the love and forgiveness you put out into the world will come back to you ten fold.
© 2000 Lois V. Nightingale, Ph.D. Director of the Nightingale Center in Yorba Linda, Ca. 714-993-5343
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Forgiveness is such an interesting concept in the theatre of MLC. As LBS we are encouraged to grow and become the best version of ourselves possible which means looking at who we really are. Inevitable the issue of forgiveness will rear its head.
I read a book called 'Forgiveness is a Choice' by Robert Enright in 2010 - it changed my life.
Forgiving my exH, his wife (the OW), his family, my friends, my family for all of the past hurts has freed me to live my life fully and congruently. It has been liberating to know my exH no longer has any power over me. And it really did start with making the choice to open myself up to believing I could be capable of forgiving him......
Forgiving is like bathing - you have to do it every day to reap the benefits!!
(http://media-cache-ec0.pinimg.com/originals/3b/a7/d8/3ba7d844dd05e1fdebf0da957ea9ae7c.jpg)
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Would like to add this page to the discussion - podcast on why should I forgive?
http://savethemarriage.com/stmblog/2014/01/why-should-i-forgive-podcast-23-save-the-marriage/
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I know we have often debated this subject on the forum, and it seems like such an elusive state to get to, especially when most of us are still dealing with very challenging behaviours or effects of our MLCer's choices. I read something today which was a bit of an aha moment for me. Thought I'd share it.
'When we forgive others, it doesn't excuse their actions; it frees us from our own stress and suffering. When you meet hatred with love, and fear with hope, this transforms you, as well as those around you.'
Dean Ornish MD - Founder and President, Preventative Medicine Research Institute.
I am not saying I am entirely there yet, but I have moments of it. Something that helped me was to try to keep out of the drama triangle that my clingy MLCer and his OW keep trying to drag me into.
This by Lee Baucom on Boundaries, I found really helpful in dealing with him.
http://savethemarriage.com/stmblog/2014/03/boundaries-you-relationship-save-your-marriage-podcast/
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I remember HB saying, how a MLCer is behaving hurts them more than it hurts us.
Lee Baucom says something similar, as does RCR. We can't control their choices - the lives they are living currently are a reflection of themselves, not a reflection of us.
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Yes we can. But, and RCR also says this, forgiving them is not the same as wanting them back/take them back or want to reconcile. Forgiving is for us, not for the MLCer.
Also, it is really complicated to fully forgive everything while things, including new things, keep coming up and are still ongoing.
Not sure I believe they hurt more than it hurt us. At least not while they are on Replay. They are too high/numb/depressed to be hurt. And early on (and early on can mean years) we can (will be) pretty hurt.
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Yes we can. But, and RCR also says this, forgiving them is not the same as wanting them back/take them back or want to reconcile. Forgiving is for us, not for the MLCer.
Also, it is really complicated to fully forgive everything while things, including new things, keep coming up and are still ongoing.
Agree completely Anjae. Forgiveness is for us and has nothing to do with the outcome.
And yes - a huge challenge when they keep trying to chop us off at the knees, or so it seems.
Not sure I believe they hurt more than it hurt us. At least not while they are on Replay. They are too high/numb/depressed to be hurt. And early on (and early on can mean years) we can (will be) pretty hurt.
I think if we look at the big picture - in terms of our/their whole lives - they are doing an enormous amount of damage to themselves. It might just take them a very long while to realise it.
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I don' know, Kikki. I really don't know about the hurt. Short or long term. To be honest former MLCers I know don't seem to have that much hurt, or to have been throught that much hurt. . It is their LBS who has the hurt.
The MLCer seem to tend to regret what they did, usually because, in the end they end up with someone far worst than the LBS or alone, or because the LBS moved on without them, but hurt is not something tend to notice in former MLCers.
More regret from what they lost, or no longer can have. In a way, it is if the MLCer will always be selfish. They regret what they lost. Or they are glad that the LBS is still willing yo take them back. It always seem to be about them.
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I think forgiving the MLCer is a vital part of truly moving on with one's life. It it also essential if the couple wants to reconcile.
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I remember HB saying, how a MLCer is behaving hurts them more than it hurts us.
Lee Baucom says something similar, as does RCR. We can't control their choices - the lives they are living currently are a reflection of themselves, not a reflection of us.
I like this and agree wholeheartedly.
As for forgiveness, I think it's a choice we have to strive toward daily for our own well being.
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My thing with boundaries is that I not certain what message are we sending when we remain married and even take back someone that has clearly violated all our boundaries and as well as marital duties.
We're not talking/dealing with a normal affair but with something that seems to demand (for all those of us that are not divorced) to remain married to a spouse who lives with someone else.
That has always been a big problem for me. Marriage for me does not include a spouse living with someone else no matter what (unless, of course, it was something agreed by both spouses). It is against my values.
So I guess while it was just OW1, with whom Mr J never lived, I was still OK with reconciliation. Years and years of living with OW2 totally trespassed by values and boundaries.
Let alone all the other stuff he had done/is doing.
As for forgiveness, I agree, it is necessary for us to heal and carry on.
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You've had years and years of things being under the control of a MLCer, as far as the courts go.
Now that you will have the opportunity to be the one to 'file' or whatever the procedure is in your country - it's probable that that feeling will shift, as you start to steer things in the direction that you are choosing.
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What feeling may change, Kikki? ???... Me changing my values? That is not going to change if I'm the one divorcing him nor is going to erase the years he lived with OW2 or anything else that has happened.
Plus my feelings for Mr J are sort of below zero. And I also have no respect at all for him. And when I loose my respect for someone it does not return. At least until this day it has never happened.
To be fair, I think the fact that I would never take him back if it was more than a normal affair is one of the reasons why Mr J wanted to divorce in a hurry. Of course it would have to be a divorce on his terms.
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What feeling may change, Kikki? ???... Me changing my values?
No, definitely not you changing your values :o :D
My thing with boundaries is that I not certain what message are we sending when we remain married and even take back someone that has clearly violated all our boundaries and as well as marital duties.
This is what I was meaning. I read from your words that you feel your boundary is being crossed by remaining married to Mr J, as he is off behaving like the out of control MLCer that he is. (and as are the rest of our MLCers).
Now that you have the opportunity to steer the divorce process, you will likely feel less violated by the crossing of this boundary, as there will be an end in sight for you.
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Ah! :) But I still don't know if, and when, I will be divorced. Don't forget everything here takes years and years (just like MLC). ::) ::) ::) So, unless Mr J magically come out of crisis and is willing to deal it may take a long while...
He is having a MLC but he (like all our MLCers) is not totally stupid, those court processed of him served for him to be sure, or so he thought, that I was not going anywhere.
Anyway, I've already decided that if someone I truly like comes along I will not pass the opportunity. I'm simply legally married against my will. I'm not emotionally or morally married. Yes, yes, it is almost like I'm having a MLC but I am not. Just had enough of this stuff and life is short. :)
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http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2014/05/28/let-go-forgive_n_5399988.html?utm_hp_ref=mostpopular
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Thanks foreshadows FTT! I am working on forgiveness for myself and my future. I don't want to take any of this toxic mess into my future, whether that is with my h or a new R forgiveness is for ME!
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After the initial shock wore off, I felt revengeful. Then I started reading all I could about MLC and realized my X did not deliberately set out to hurt me. He didn't choose to feel empty and miserable.
It's just something he couldn't seem to control. He desperately wanted to feel "happy" again and thought our marriage was the problem. It wasn't, but he convinced himself it was.
He's no happier being single.
So I guess I can't forgive him because I never really blamed him.
I knew him for almost 30 years and I know what kind of man he was all those years. He just lost himself. I hope some day he can figure out what we had was good.
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Hi Thunder
I'm in very much the same sort of place. I find it hard to blame the MLC-er people for his pain and suffering, although I know that putting up a screen of anger is very helpful for moving on.
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I like this one better...
http://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/anger-in-the-age-entitlement/201405/forgiveness-after-betrayal
Read everything Stosny writes--he's a god...
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Read everything Stosny writes--he's a god...
Absolutely AGREE!
I read this book by him
"How to Improve Your Marriage Without Talking About It"
It was very good!
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So glad I read this. I never understand that forgiveness DOES NOT mean you condone or forgot what the offender did! I never knew the offender didn't have to know that I forgive...it just means I accept what is done to move on! I never realized forgiveness was for me!
I needed to read this!!
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It bears repeating: forgiveness - in its implicit and explicit forms - is not about condoning bad behavior or letting someone off the hook for it. It’s about taking control of your emotional well being.
Absolutely. Check out wwwsavethemarriageblog.com Dr Lee Baucom has a couple of brilliant podcasts on forgiveness. He says exactly the same as this article.
Perhaps that's why I don't feel anger anymore, perhaps that's why I have no desire to discuss the R with H, perhaps that's why I think that my life is for me.
I agree - forgiveness isn't a conscious act - it's a process and I have no idea if I have begun that process with my detachment or whether I have just detached and have some more emotional processing to do as part of the detachment.
All I know is that I am ok and that's all that matters at the mo.
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There is a book called Forgiveness Is a Choice: A Step-by-Step Process for Resolving Anger and Restoring Hope
By Robert D. Enright, PhD - it is a must read in my view and helped me understand what forgiveness is and how to forgive - it really was the best gift I have ever given to myself.
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I just finished the book by Desmond Tutu and his daughter Mpho "The book of forgiving: the fourfold path to heal ourselves and heal the world". Wow, such powerful words and a practical guide to follow. Every chapter ends with a poem or meditation. So Beautiful.
Early in my journey I was guided in powerful ways on the path to forgiveness. No, didn't manage in 30 days and I think it is an ongoing process. I am convinced it is a vital step in healing.
If you want, and I encourage you all, you can join the forgiveness journey. One way is to sign up (for free) to participate in the Tutu Global Forgiveness challenge, which is a 30-day online programme to learn the practical steps to forgiveness http://forgivenesschallenge.com/ More information on the book can be found on this site as well.
"With each act of forgiveness, whether small or great, we move toward wholeness.”
Desmond & Mpho Tutu, The Book of Forgiving
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Thanks for sending this link. We all have things in our lives that we could forgive. I shall check it out.