Midlife Crisis: Support for Left Behind Spouses
Archives => Archived Topics => Topic started by: hyperglad on October 24, 2010, 01:51:09 PM
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Hi All this is an email that Stayeds H sent to another forum member on the Infedelity site, she has said I could post it here as I think it may help give an insight into the mind of a MLC'r. I wasnt sure which symbol to use so i put the heart, I;m sure OP or RCR will change if it is not approriate.
My H read it and said it was just how he felt....I hope it Helps
Hi , (Stayeds husband) here. Stayed asked me to write to you about your present situation. Before I do, however, I need to say a couple of things:
1. I don't know your H, your relationship or anything about his present situation.
2. The fact that things turned around for Stayed and I may not be "the normal way these things turn out".
3. The feelings and experiences that I had may not be the same as those your H is experiencing.
That said:
I have loved Stayed my whole life. The things we have been through together and the obstacles that we have overcome with our marriage, our children, financial problems, work related issues and so on amaze me. We really were, and I believe we are again, a single team. I never doubted her absolute support and willingness to work and fight with me to get where we needed to be and she felt the same way about me. I'm not sure that everyone's relationship is so intense or all consuming so the starting points may be different.
In spite of all this I went through this period of madness in my life that really had little to do with Stayed. I was very unhappy and unsatisfied with my life. I think that at some point you realize that "this is my life" and maybe you aren't "where you thought you would be" or what you would be and somehow it is all very disheartening. You've had your shot and there really isn't much you can do to change your "lot in life". Maybe an affair is in some way a dramatic way of "taking action" of "doing something" or refusing to accept the status quo. You really don't have to accept "your reality" you can change things and plot a new course. All of this of course sounds very fascinating to a middle aged (or older) guy who is feeling somewhat disappointed in (sorry for) himself and thinks that "there should be more" to life. It defies rationale explanation but the allure of the fantasy (not the other woman the "new life") is so overpowering that even though you know it is nonsense you still carry on.
So you live your fantasy and you choose not to think about all the pain and damage that you are causing. There is an emotional train wreck happening all around you but you do a couple of things that let you "deal with it". You tell yourself that this happens all the time and therefore it is normal. People change and their needs change. I'm just moving on in pursuit of my new needs to take full advantage of what is left of my life. It would be unthinkable not to do everything possible to "be happy". That's the whole point of being alive isn't it? I didn't intend to cause any pain and suffering so the sooner we get through this part the better. People die, bad things happen in life and eventually we all get through it and learn to live with it. It's painful now but that won't last indefinitely. Eventually everyone will realize that this was "for the best".
There are lots of times though that you see the illusion for what it really is. It is hard to deal with so you block it by doing "all kinds of fun things". Keep yourself busy, go places, do things: eat in nice restaurants, go dancing, see movies, keep your mind busy. As long as there are bright lights and distractions you won't dwell on your own stupidity. When you get tired and your mind starts to wander you suppress it. I took anti depressants and sleeping pills so that I could just turn off and get some sleep instead of thinking about the whole situation. The sleeping pills worked great but I actually got annoyed because the anti depressants didn't make me feel good about the whole situation...what the hell was I paying for anyway?
You seek assurances from friends and family because you are "too close to the situation" to see it clearly. If they don't outright tell you that you are being an absolute a$$hole you assume that their neutral or supportive comments like "no matter what you do you will still be my...(friend, brother, whatever) are more positive than they are. You hear what you want to hear and if they say something you don't like you ignore it and go somewhere else for re-assurance.
The second aspect of the whole thing is that it doesn't seem real. You don't feel the full impact of anything you do. You feel like you are living an adventure. I tell Stayed that it often felt like I was watching myself in a movie. The more I think about it the more this seems to apply. The fact is that when you are watching a movie, you know it is going to end, you also know that it isn't real. Unfortunately, unlike a movie where none of it is real, the situation you have created may not be real for you but it is absolutely real for everyone else. There is a part of you that knows you are not going to stay on the ride forever (or in the movie) and that when it is over you will come back to reality, you just don't want that to happen "right now'. So the bull$h!te drags on and on and the pain continues for everyone who isn't in the movie and for you when you have those moments that you realize that it isn't a movie either. Then you take your pills, drink and find "fun things" to do to drown out the painful thoughts.
The third thing is that you have an anchor in reality. It is like knowing that if things get a little too weird in a dream you can always tell yourself it is just a dream (even while dreaming) and if it gets real bad you can actually make yourself wake up. It doesn't matter how far you lean out the window, you can always pull yourself back in. Knowing that Stayed was worried about me (it's not me, I'm sick) and knowing that she wanted desperately to have me back made the melodrama of the movie even more intoxicating but more importantly it reassured me that I had an out. I knew that she would be there for me regardless of what sort of an idiot I was being because our love could transcend any stupidity.
So what does all this mean?
I'm not sure because people and relationships are different. I promised Stayed things several times and then let her down totally. When I made those promises I meant them but the other life was just so addictive that I fell right back into the illusion (movie or dream, take your pick). At some point, however, I realized that I was in danger of actually losing Stayed and that if that happened my life would be empty. No anchor, no way back, no reality, just a movie. I actually added this to my screenplay. Sure, she might say we were through but a couple of years from now when I came to my senses it would be so romantic getting back together...what the hell was I thinking. That's when I woke up.
So, I can't be sure and I would hate to offer advice (let's face it we know I'm an idiot) but if your h is having a similar experience to the one I had, then "chasing" him just reassures him that his anchor is still holding. It also adds to the drama of the movie. On the other hand, if you just let go he might be completely consumed by the illusion. There are numerous real movies that have used this theme; you see them all the time. They always rely on the gimmick that if you believe in something hard enough or if you love someone strong enough that you can bring them back from the brink and save them (even Darth Vader turned out to be salvageable in the end, realizing his mistake before he died). Sorry, they are just movies. Real people need to be shaken up and someone has to turn on the lights in the theatre.
So, if you stop chasing and checking up and worrying you might actually lose him. Would that be any worse than the suffering you are experiencing right now? How much longer do you want to hurt, be angry and confused? On the other hand, you thought he was your life partner and you feel that you are abandoning him if you don't try to "help him through this". It is a horrible situation to be in.
So, my suggestion would be to stop chasing and checking and reassuring him that the anchor is still holding solid. Quit making the movie more dramatic and exciting. Tell him:
That you want to work on the marriage, that you can forgive him and take him back but starting today your life is about you and not about his movie. You can't be sure where this decision will lead you but you need more than hopes and dreams that things will be the way they were. You are very sad and you feel very sorry for him and hope that he will be OK but you have had enough and you can't let this situation ruin two lives. If he comes to his senses and wants to be with you then you hope that happens before your life takes a new direction and the door closes. You are not going to live in the past and you are prepared to move on without him.
Then live your life as if he may not come back. Believe it, don't play it: he may not come back. If he doesn't then how will that be any worse than what you are living now? On the other hand, if he feels the danger like I did, he may be smacked back into reality. Depending on when that happens and where you are with your life you can make a decision at that time as to what you want to do.
J
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Thank you for sharing this....it helps to understand what the heck is going on in the MLCer's mind. I wish you both love and enjoyment in life...you are very courageous to speak so frankly. I'd love to send this to my H but know that would not be good...best advice is what you have said...do not pursue and live my life as only I can live it!
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this offers some great insight! thanks!
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I too appreciate the insight of Stayed H's letter. I have often wondered if my H is aware of the pain and damage he has caused. Since he has always avoided difficult situations I can imagine that he is finding other ways to not think about everything. I have very limited contact with him. Mostly he talks about himself and might fit in to ask about his daughters. We have had some pretty bad weather (lots of wind and thunderstorms) over the last 2 weeks and it irks me that he doesn't even call to see if we are okay. I know that I can't control his behavior but after reading Stayed's letter it make alot of sense. Maybe he does care but is just trying to not think about it.
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Thankyou for sharing!
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To stayed h, what powerful insight as well as acceptance for the entire situation. You are not an idiot, you just acted like one. Also, your words show the need to detach and not pursue. I have mixed feeling because my w knows that I am here for her, but I also let her know that I do not accept her EA. I really think it is harder to detach from the spouse if they are at home and there are children to deal with. It confuses my children when I or my wife ignore each other. I am cordial with her and I treat her with respect.
You also state it is like being in a movie. My w watches romance movies and I think she really sees the r with OM as a fantasy that they both share. I think she sees the entire relationship as a movie as well. That is why she prints and keeps all the emails and chats. It is their script.
I am glad I read the letter. It gives insight and lets me know that when she leaves, I need to detach and use the time she is away to work on me. Sometimes I feel as if she is trying to reach out to me. I don't know. The one thing that has really developed in my soul is I no longer fall for her guilt trips. She can spew and I still sleep well.
Thanks for this letter. It was well written and honest. It took a lot of courage to write and then have it posted on this site. I pray to God that posting this letter may save one marriage, allow a spouse to stand, or continue to stand. Have a great night.
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Just thought i would bump this up in case anyone missed it and say congrats Stayed on the new arrival :) glad they are both doing well :)
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Yes, thanks for sharing this letter. We have access to very little insight of the MLC mind. Any tidbits are more than welcome.
Congratulations on the new arrival, Stayed!
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What a valuable insight. Thanks Stayed's H. Rightly or wrongly I can fit traces of your feelings to my own wife's behavior too. At the moment it doesn't feel like she has any concern or need for an anchor. Her mind is made up about her future.
The truth is in my relationship, after almost 18 months of this strangeness and uncertainty, I'm beginning to forget what life was like before 'the bomb'. I know that when I look at the photos on my shelf of my wife - my friend, I can understand that the person in her body now is not a friend.
Stayed's H didn't talk much about projecting blame and negativity to his wife. Did that happen in his case, or did he just quickly leave in pursuit of his adventure? It's one thing to dream of a better life and to leave and chase it. I think that could almost be explained ... like it is explained above. But why does it have to be done in such a damaging way? I'll have to reread the articles to consider how this ties in.
For me in my relationship, the blame and the negativity has been one of the toughest parts of the crisis. I would absolutely hate to have hurt my wife emotionally as she says I did - though I'm sure I have at times - and that's what is destroying me - thinking that somehow, my own words or actions or habits have turned her into this person. She seems certain that I'm to blame, and I guess because I'm so quick to accept blame that it is easy for her to heap it on.
Somehow this past weekend I realized that I'm not a terrible person. I'm dependable, I'm fit, smart, friendly, I'm good at what I do - I'm good with my kids, I help my community. I was exciting enough to move countries twice. But I was so jaded by this that I thought that I was mean and boring.
And now it is actually a relief that she is going, because I don't really want to see her or hear her like this anymore, and I'm fast running out of hope that she'll ever change.
RcR told me not to take it personally - but it has been so damned personal. Stayed's H wrote:
I went through this period of madness in my life that really had little to do with Stayed
My question is ... did it appear that way at the time?
Thanks so much Stayed's H.
holdingon
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I see a great deal of what my husband was within this letter. It brought back some memories of a few things he said that brought him back to me in the end.
I remember him saying that when I changed my attitude toward him; he felt he needed to get his crap together or he would truly lose me, and he didn't want that.
I had to LEAVE HIM BEHIND, folks, before he would even think about catching up with me...my moving forward was the catalyst that brought him back.
That's why I always tell you folks to let go, let God; you don't see what's on the inside of a typical MLC'er; but GOD does.
Letting go is one of the healthiest things you and the biggest favor you can do your MLC'er. They may NOT come back, but once you do the work that is necessary within YOU, it won't matter. Your marriage, instead of being a means to an end, becomes a BONUS instead.
The changes you make within and the strengthening of your relationship with the Lord, if you're a servant, are really what matters in the greater scheme of things; NOT your MLC spouse.
I know, I've been there, done that worn that T-Shirt.
I've done ALL the destructive behaviors in the beginning; I LEARNED to let go and let God. This doesn't come natural to anyone to do this opposite of what you'd normally do.
This letter contains very sage advice..and the important is to LET GO of your MLC spouse; and leave them behind as you move forward within the crisis....making changes that will last a lifetime, if you'll hold on to them.
It was the best move I ever made within his crisis.....forward, onward, and upward. :)
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HB,
I wanted to write something similar to what you just wrote, you really have a special gift when it comes to giving advice and putting it in writing.
"Letting Go"... and "Let God" is the way. MLCer's seems to have a radar and know also if you have really or Truly "Let Go". In my humble opinion Letting Go is a place in your heart and mind where you no longer fear what the outcome will be... by trusting God.
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HB - I have a question for you regarding this comment:
I had to LEAVE HIM BEHIND, folks, before he would even think about catching up with me...my moving forward was the catalyst that brought him back.
If I remember right, your H did not move out, but he worked away from home during the week. How were you able to show him you were moving forward while living in the same home? This is something I'm struggling with, since my H is still at home (although he may not be for much longer, who knows).
For me, it seems hard to detach when I witness his cycling and fluctuations. Plus, H doesn't have the opportunity to miss me or wonder what I am up to. Do you have some practical advice for a LBS to show an MLC'er he or she is moving forward without having to throw the MLC'er to the curb?
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How were you able to show him you were moving forward while living in the same home?
The same way that you show someone that you can tapdance, or juggle. You just do it.
Make plans without him, especially ones outside the home. This has the added benefit of minimizing the effect his cycles can have on you.
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I used to say to my H i know I will be alright....now I am all right and that is the difference :)
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Hyperglad
You are so right. That is the key. We have to be alright.
Butterfly
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Butterfly we sure do :)
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Hyperglad, thank you for posting my h's letter, I did not have access to it while I was in Canada. I really wanted it out there, for all these wonderful people to see and read. I know how much any sort of insight would have HELPED me to deal with this.
I will ask my h to respond to your questions Holdingon about projecting his anger and blame onto me. I really can't answer for him but I can say, one of the first things my h said to me when I returned was: When I first went into this depression (whatever you want to call it) I thought it was all your fault, that you weren't making me happy anymore, that we had outgrown each other..... but.... I now know, it was me! I was unhappy with myself, I didn't think I had gotten where I should have, or was the person I should have been. I felt like I was missing out on life and time was running out.
Thank you so much for your good wishes on the arrival of my latest grandson, hehehe #3, 2 from oldest daughter, now 1 from the youngest, we are also blessed with 2 little girls from our oldest son. Having 5 children we sort of expect to have quite a houseful eventually. I also learned, oldest daughter is expecting again in May... lol she is hoping for a girl, but of course will take what she gets, hehehe... Grandchildren are definitely our reward for being parents... Thank you all so much.
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Hello Just Fine and Dandy,
If I remember right, your H did not move out, but he worked away from home during the week. How were you able to show him you were moving forward while living in the same home? This is something I'm struggling with, since my H is still at home (although he may not be for much longer, who knows).
For me, it seems hard to detach when I witness his cycling and fluctuations. Plus, H doesn't have the opportunity to miss me or wonder what I am up to. Do you have some practical advice for a LBS to show an MLC'er he or she is moving forward without having to throw the MLC'er to the curb?
You remembered correctly; my husband was a truck driver back then, still is, and I am a trucker, now, too. :)
I simply got on with my life AS IF he weren't going to continue; I didn't always answer the phone, I didn't "check in" with him as I had, previously.
I did what I wanted to when I wanted to; I just broke the habit of letting him know where I was, when I'd be home.
I basically lived my life AS IF I weren't married; well, HE wasn't married, he'd made that very clear, so, neither was I. Now, I didn't do anything I wasn't supposed to do, but my ACTIONS toward him showed that I wasn't "waiting" for him. He did, indeed, see this in me...and at first tried to get me to go back to what I had been. When that didn't work, he showed anger. When I ignored that, he got angrier.
The more I pulled away, the harder he tried to grab onto me. Finally, he saw his controlling ways weren't working; that, along with an ensuing confrontation that was directed by the Lord, showed him that he was NO LONGER in control of me.
I saw him start doing the opposite, which was beginning to show me more respect, asking me for dates. I didn't trust it at first; but he persisted; the Lord showed me he was serious, so I started responding to his overtures.
The thing was, I never said one word to him;(except for the confrontation we had) I just started changing and doing more on my own; and he saw he was losing control of the situation, and me.
Do you have some practical advice for a LBS to show an MLC'er he or she is moving forward without having to throw the MLC'er to the curb?
Moving forward in your life does NOT mean you are throwing them to the curb, though it may look like it in the beginning.
When I became aware something was wrong; I made my stand clear to him; but it made no difference.
So, when I 'got it'; I began moving forward WITHOUT him; and the questions began, but I didn't give clear answers, I was evasive..all the while continuing to move right along going forward.
The point is the typical MLC'er KNOWS where the LBS stands in regard to them; where the confusion comes in is when the LBS begins to move forward, and the MLC'er doesn't understand what's happening.
They would rather the LBS continue to act the SAME way they did before the crisis came about; that continues to justify the MLC'er's actions. But when the LBS CHANGES, the MLC'er has no choice but to either accept the changes or walk away. THEIR CHOICE; the LBS has NO control over that...only over themselves.
GAL is designed to be just that Get a Life; that doesn't include the MLC'er. IF the MLC'er chooses to join the LBS, fine; but if not, that should be all right, too.
What would be described as throwing the MLC'er to the curb is the unthinkable, such as taking on another person in a relationship that is clearly wrong.
When you move forward with your life AS IF, you are NOT throwing the MLC'er to the curb, you are giving them an OPTION to join you or not.
If you are sitting still, doing nothing, you're not doing yourself any favors; and are likely to get stuck within the MLC'er's crisis.
So, get out there; find something that interests you, live your life AS IF; leave the MLC'er behind in the dust. Detach, let go and let God deal with the situation.
The only hope anyone has of possibly regaining their marriage is LETTING GO of it, and leaving it within the Lord's hands.
You can do nothing for your MLC'er but leave them alone until such a time when they start coming to you; and even then, you don't let it interrupt your life or your journey...you keep going, and going, and going.
You will know when the time is right to make the connection with your MLC'er; your intuition will let you know.
Until then, GAL your heart out. :)
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Just adding some thoughts....H and I have had conversations about my letting go and moving forward. He told me he wished I had let go sooner so he could work thru his issues sooner. My being up his butt was preventing him from dealing with things. I can see that clear as day now, but at the time, I just couldn't/wouldn't let go. I was afraid of what I may lose at the time. It was also preventing me from looking at myself.
I told him its hard to let go of the person you love...he agreed. Anyway, I guess I am just saying, he really noticed I finally had let go...to the point where I had moved so forward that it almost prevented him from coming back because he could see I was in such a good place and didn't want to ruin that for me. It took him a month to get the guts to approach me and take the leap of faith to ask me about working on the marriage.
He tried a few times he told me...I noticed he was hinting around, but didn't bite....in turn making him be the one to just come out and ask if I would be willing to work on the marriage.
At the end of the day...they do notice when you truly let go.......I think it makes them take a good hard look at the thought of actually losing you....something most of them really don't want..... but not letting go gives them a sense of comfort that you will always be around.
I, too, agree with HB....letting go and letting God was the catalyst that brought my H back. As you know, we are still working our way back, but I believe we are well on our way..with God's guidance, of course.
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Baxter, thanks for sharing that. I am so afraid that by letting go to this extreme that this will cinch the deal. I trust God completely now and leave my Beloved and our marriage in His hands.
Around last Feb, when he would call somedays and not others (he was in Asia then), I asked him if he would call or email me once a day as my anxiety would escalate if I did not hear from him (and throughout all our married life we had been in touch daily). He told me after 2nd BD that he needed to take several deep breaths before he could pick up the phone and call me. I was really shocked by that as I did not try talking to him about us, I would be upbeat and cheerful. His calls were very brief, he was always on his way into a meeting or just boarding a plane..purposely making sure that there wasn't much time for us to talk.
I used to write down things that I could say to him because those calls were not very easy. In retrospect, that amount of contact was too much for him...I used to believe that if he connected with me that it was a good sign and meant that he cared and was thinking about me.
I still haven't reached the point of being able to freely embrace what I want to do with my life. I really want to get a dog and have postponed that for several months...that will be the next step for me as that again will be another "excuse" that he will have to not bring us back together....but see, I'm thinking logically when in actual fact..if won't have any effect because he truly is in a place where he doesn't want me in his life now anyway. My therapist has said(and it's true) that there would always be a way around any situation if he wants to come back to the marriage.
My sense of commitment is so strong that even to become the owner of a dog, I will not do unless I am absolutely sure that I would would take care of the dog for it's entire life. I am so alone here that a dog would be really really good for my loneliness (I've had two dogs in the past). I used to joke that my husband on a good day was what my dog was everyday!
"And the day came when the risk to remain tight in a bud was more painful than the risk to blossom". Whether or not letting go completely will have an effect on our journeys, there comes a point where there really is nothing more that you can do anyway. We have to do this for us..without thinking that it will force them back to us. God will try but again, their own free will will prevail.
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Baxter
Thanks for the insight from your H.
Letting go and handing my H over to God was and is an informed choice but hard to make. It was a eureka moment when I asked God to help and handed my H over. As a fixer I want to be part of the fixing and I have had to learn to stand well back. This has only happened in the last few months, so early days yet.
On a daily basis I have to remind myself that God has H in his arms giving him support and strength to get through the tunnel in God time not mine.
xx
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Justasking, I've done the same thing and feel so much better now, knowing that God is handling it ;D. I can breath again, laugh, joke etc.
xyzcf: Please do get a dog, but adopt one. Our dog, since we don't have children yet, has helped me tremendously in all of this especially because I don't have family nearby. She was the one sitting by me and licking my tears off my face when I was sitting on the floor and just wanted to die/for all the pain to just go away. She is the one that keeps me warm at night and loves me unconditionally, even in this difficult time. And she is the one that connects my h and I right now because we both love her very much.
God is working behind the scenes and I actually tell my doggie every once in a while that she was God sent...we had an instant connection with her when we visited her at her foster mom's...don't wait too long and save a doggie (I've been a volunteer at a dog shelter and have seen horrible things that humans do to dogs). you will see how it will help you, long walks etc and they make you laugh cause doggies are goof balls LOL
p.s. on the letting go part; I've noticed that when I'm detached and doing my own things, my h seems to be more drawn towards me...last weekend, I was gone pretty much both days. My h could have done the same but opted to stay at home :o. Usually, he's the one constantly on the go (not as much these days though). So I keep busy and detached...So happy for anyone, whose MLCer is getting better and starting to reconnect. And I wish the same to everyone on here...and I pray for that
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Purple stain, oh yes, I plan to rescue a lab..my last two I had as puppies but I want to be able to give a dog a good home. The problem right now is the Lab rescue associations insist that you have a fenced yard which I presently have but our house is up for sale and I will be moving to a rental property that isn't fenced. Eventually I hope to but my own place with a yard again.
Perhaps the humane society will not be so picky. I always loved taking my dog for walks and I will definitely take him or her out regularly...the time is coming soon.
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xyzcf...I have two amazing rescue black labs mixes. I had the same problem with the fence thing, but eventually found them on pet finder thru various other rescue organizations. Like PS said...my pups were and will always be a God sent..they really helped me thru some of my darkest days. Now that is true love :) (Although, now that H is back in picture, they seem to be his best friend now...hmmmm.....how quickly they forgot how I was the one that took care of them for months...oh well...still love them so much)
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Letting go has been the hardest part. I've let go of trying to help. I've stopped communicating. I pray everyday that God will touch my H's heart and heal him.
But, I still will find days where I curl up in a ball and cry and hope my H will return. Does this mean I haven't really let go yet? How do you just release it all completely?
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Don't know that it is ever possible to release completely. Perhaps letting go is about letting go of our expectations, the dreams and plans that we had together. Accepting that they may not return to our lives but being grateful for all the good times that we have had.
The crying is so normal...it strikes when we least expect but truly is the body's way of healing and releasing our pain so don't stop. Holding it back will only make it worse I think.
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Jumping in here since my name is LettingGo, LOL!!
Letting go is a process and an attitude. You do not have to "do" anything specific, but GAL is a "must" for yourself, anyway. My best friend pointed out to me that "let go and let God" is tricky for me because we constantly let go, then take it back - it's a control issue. Don't worry about it though, you are allowed to be human! God does not need your help... you only have to do YOUR part.
As for moving forward in your life and living "as if", I can tell you that my husband is responding to my changes and is concerned that I won't be waiting forever for him to get himself together... that is because he has felt the shift in my attitude. Quite frankly, I just got tired and worn down so threw my hands up in the air and decided I was "over" our lives being all about him and his drama. He lives with OW now, so how can I argue with that slap in the face? He is worried because he can't expect me to reasonably believe that he loves me, misses me and wants to be with me as he says, WHEN HE LIVES WITH ANOTHER WOMAN!! IT IS ABSURD! Now, because I know what I'm dealing with, I can sit back and watch it all fall apart, but he doesn't know that I know... he knows it looks really BAD in real life!
He has started pursuing me in a different way than before... I can feel it... he is worried someone else will get interested in me. I don't respond to his questions about what I'm doing other than to say "nothing". He knows he has no right to ask me if I'm dating, but he fishes for info and I let him stew over it. I no longer reassure that I will be here forever... I reassure of my love only. I'm doing as HB described she did - not going outside of my marriage, but doing my own thing when I want and how I want!
One thing I just remembered he said yesterday was something like "If I came home, I wouldn't want you to feel like I've got my boot on your neck holding you down" which is something I used to say to him as he was VERY controlling. He also said that he hated to admit it but that "this thing probably had to happen for us to realize stuff about ourselves". This is an indication to me that he is having some insight into his OWN issues and not just focusing on what a good job I'm doing changing myself into a person he could like, LOL!! For me, it is significant as it is the first time he's mentioned ANY personal growth for himself.
I will tell you that if you are rowing the boat all by yourself, at some point, you will be glad to hand the oars over and take a nap! That is a major shift in attitude and they WILL notice!
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HeartsBlessing - Thank you so much for responding to my questions. Everyone else, your experiences help also.
Yes, it does feel backward to "let go" in order to keep something. I'm getting to the point where I believe I can let go, but I'm also afraid I might permanently let go in the process.
Is it wrong to not want to be with my husband the way he is now, and to not even want him the way he was before? I think the ONLY way I could imagine reuniting with my husband is if he transforms himself to be morally, mentally, and emotionally strong enough to stand beside in a committed marriage. Right now, it is honestly hard to imagine him growing to that point. But I know he could if he chose to do so. Likewise, I know that I'm far from perfect, and I need to work on me.
So, I guess I should live my life like he is never coming back. But, if we do end up as two new and improved individuals who want to be together, then that would be great, too.
Am I starting to get it?
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Beautifully said, well done... you got it!
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LG is right, Just fine and dandy, you have gotten it. :)
Is it wrong to not want to be with my husband the way he is now, and to not even want him the way he was before?
There is a time during your journey to wholeness and healing when you will be shown your husband as he really WAS during your marriage; and you won't like what you see about him.
Each person wears masks; not only during the crisis, but during the time BEFORE the crisis; and you will see that things are not as they had seemed to be before the crisis began.
Each one of the LBS' wore 'rose colored' glasses that altered our perceptions of our MLC spouse...I know I wore mine with pride; until they fell off during my journey, destroying my innocence forever.
I saw my husband as he was was and had been a selfish, self serving man; a controller, a manipulator, who'd had NO respect for me at all. He'd just used me for what I could do, not loved me for who I was.
That HURT; and I grieved that part of it through; as I took a totally honest look at what my marriage had been.
I'd not done everything right; and I was aware of that; having already seen my part in this; yet, once I saw his part; I asked myself what I was doing still standing when he wasn't any more perfect than I was.
For that reason alone; I didn't want him back as he'd been; I wanted him changed, just as I had had to change; and it did happen; although, it took time to progress through this change.
In the end, I have gotten a better man than I had before; who, for the first time in his life truly DOES love me for who I am, NOT for what I can do; I'm valued, regarded with respect; and he shares his life with me; always being open and honest about what he's doing.
If he hurts my feelings, he will apologize; he bends over backward for me; and this is GENUINE love, regard, and affection; not a "put on" or a mask, like it had been before.
He even speaks to me differently; but then, I come across toward him from a position of strength, not weakness; he KNOWS what I will tolerate and won't tolerate; whereas before he did NOT care; love to him was only words...and he'd piled every kind of responsibility on me he could; simply because he didn't care as long as it didn't affect him.
He now tries to make things easier on me; lets me know he's done certain things so I don't have to do them; beforehand, I'd had everything to do.
We share bills, household chores, take care of ourselves; care for, NOT take care of, each other.
He no longer tries to control and manipulate me; and I respect him enough to not try that with him; as he has his own boundaries in place and will not hesitate to defend them.
If he doesn't like something, he will now speak up instead of holding a grudge against me for a later time. I deeply respect that quality in him; I'd rather someone speak up and let me know they don't like something, than to bury it deep within..and he used to do this; and many things came up during his crisis; hitting me in the face; as I had NO idea he was that unhappy.
In the coming out of the tunnel; a change IS noted within the MLC'er; and the LBS has already completed their changes; and so the two step forward into the future as DIFFERENT people working on an entirely NEW marriage.
Change IS necessary within BOTH people; or the lessons WILL recycle until learned or the end of life occurs.
I've seen it where a couple came through, but nothing was learned by either one, and so it all started all over once again from the beginning after a period of time.
I've also seen it where one has learned, the other has not; and it all goes back to the beginning again for the one who didn't learn.
And, sadly, I've seen it where the couple got so far, and gave it all up, breaking down the marriage; the damage on one or both sides was too much, and a point of no return was reached.
Yet each person, AS AN INDIVIDUAL will learn the lessons that are set before them; or recycle them over and over.
So, you might as well learn it all the first go around; so you don't have to go for a "refresher" course to get it all together.
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So true HB. I'm truly happy and enlightened that my rose-colored glasses are off and see my H for what he was throughout our M. Funny too that my daughters see it too. I guess that's why they have been able to detach so well.
I am standing for now but I don't want my H back the way he was and I don't want to be the same person either. I like who I am becoming and don't want to be that old self. I think I finally "got it". I will contiue to learn and grow and live my life for me.
Thank you to all who have given me such wonderful advice and support.
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I have been rereading the comments and the conversation created by my h's letter. It has brought some thoughts to mind, that I had not considered before. Funny, the questions that come to mind, long after the fact. Like, I have never asked my h when he began to realize I was detaching.... as I went to New Zealand for 3 mos. there were no phone calls at all and most of his emails, I read but did not respond to. (I devoured every word of those emails though, searching for any clues that he was coming out of whatever in the hell was wrong with him)
It was a wise decision though to get as far away from him as I could. Heck you would have thought, me in Canada and him in Europe would have been far enough, but I had a phone in Canada... he could and did call frequently. Keeping me hanging on, waiting and he so he could check often to make sure the anchor was still holding. Looking back it is so clear, what he was doing and how I was ALLOWING him to do it. At the time, it wasn't obvious at all, as I was desperate to hear from him and was grateful for any little morsel he threw my way.
I can see it all so clearly now. He would call, we would start out being civil, then I would try to make him see how foolish he was being. Try to force him to see what he was THROWING AWAY. Eventually, the conversation would deteriorate into an outright fight. Me sobbing, him exasperated. I'm sure he hung, totally convinced that he was doing the right thing. That I was a totally, unreasonable b*tch, a pain in the a$$ and he was better off without me. I would hang up, more depressed then ever, whipping myself for getting drawn into another "battle", knowing damn well that was not the way to reach him.... but just incapable of making myself stop. Then he would call me the next day and we would do the same thing all over again.... except for on weekends. Then he devoted every second to OW, playing house with her, pretending he was having the time of his life. Determined to forget all about us, until Monday morning, then the calls would start again. I continued to validate his reasons for leaving me and he continued to make sure, his anchor was still holding.
New Zealand was the smartest thing I ever did. When my mother passed away in February and he made it clear that he was going to work on his new relationship. I knew I had to get away from him. That the cycle had to be broken. There were no books available. There were no forums. All the sites said... "forget about it, your marriage is DONE, nobody recovers from this, how do you ever trust again?" I heard it all. I didn't want to believe them, but they sure were starting to make a lot of sense. Statistics showed that the longer a couple was married the more likely they were to reconcile, but with another person involved, I failed to see how that was possible for us. Quite honestly, I went a way to lick my wounds in PRIVATE... you have no idea how much I hate humiliation... and the idea that my family and friends PITIED me.... drove me nearly insane.
I have well honed survival instincts. I was dying, I was getting nowhere, time to get totally away from it. I was luckier then so many of you, my youngest was 19 attending university, my pets were with my h and his OW, plus we were financially stable. Even at the peak of this nightmare, I was aware of the advantages I was blessed with. So, broken hearted, defeated, I ran. :-\ If I had not had children, I think I would have gone invisible.. hehehe. I was a mess and knew I had to help myself, whatever it took.
I went away completely, from siblings, friends and children because I knew I had to face my fears.... my fear of being alone. Somehow, that had become a huge terror to me. Odd, considering as I had spent so much of my married life alone, with the kids. Still, I was very afraid. Thought my heart would pop out of my chest as I got on that plane the day I started my race for survival. Trying to act, all cool and calm, when I was scared to death and just wanted to crawl in a hole and cry, or better yet, :-[ die! I kept telling myself, this is going to be such an adventure.
It was so much like the first time my h went on exercise. We had just moved to Alberta, I knew absolutely nobody and I was a couple mos. pregnant. I would go to bed at night and PRETEND mom and dad were sleeping upstairs. That I was safe and secure. Hell, I was 26 years old, had back packed all over the west coast of Canada, Europe, traveled by car with my sister to western Canada, then across to Seattle and down to California, on hwy 1 no less, hehehe, yet I was still scared. He was gone for 6 weeks, we didn't even have a phone, took 6 weeks for them to flick a switch in 1978. Thought I could die there and nobody would find me until my h got home.
It was almost 29 yrs. to the day... here I was ALL ALONE again... and scared to death. Interesting twist of events. Mmmmmmmm where was I before I went off on this tangent... oh right, must ask husband when he began to feel me moving on... I always sort of thought it was after I returned to Canada but you know... I really don't know for sure... hehehe.
Bye for now...
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Stayed,
I'm looking forward to the next installment !! I have been thinking just along these lines. I would like to get as far away as possible. But, I have both my Ds living at home with me. D22 could easily move in with a friend but D18 is a senior in H.S. so I might have to wait until this summer. For now it's just a dream ... but some times dreams still come true. Right now Stayed it's not that I'm afraid of being alone I just want to be left alone.
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I hear you on that justkeepmovingon.... honestly, I flip flopped as much as my MLCer about just that.... LEAVE ME ALONE... don't you dare... hehehe...
You just get so tired ... don't you? hugs hun...
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I would love to escape for a while but H has made it clear if I try and bolt he will use law to bring me back and I believe him on that cos of the girls.
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Stayed
;D
Could you or your H answer this question? When your H 'woke up' was it suddenly or gradual, Did he start to see that he was living a fantasy and yet run back into the fantasy and in their word ping pong about? What really made him realise; beside you moving on and scaring him that his happy ending may not be a reality, when he was ready; (in his movie) that he had to do something Now and not tomorrow??
I can see the changes in my H, as HB says I have seen him (this started a few years before his BD and something I had tried to discus with him but got only antagonism ) - trying to not be so self-centered, controlling, uncaring - I now realise that he is his Mother and Father - two people who would drive past our home on route to their friends and not stop and visit (only child - only grandchildren) this he was so hurt by and said often I hope I am never like them - he is now?. His D is now dead and his M quite old and frail and he hardly sees her - just now out of duty, when we were together he used to make us all feel guilty and as if we were deliberately hurting him by not seeing them regularly when they made me and the kids feel UN welcome.
He is being much nicer to me about things I used to not understand why he seemed not to care, mentions things that happened (i had a ski accident 2 years ago - he showed no real concern and even a tad of annoyance) and how he remembers how bad it was for me and how upset he was?? and how he gets upset thinking about it (at the time he showed no concern at all).
Is this in your view or H - good signs because I cant have the old H back I know that too and think I knew I was unhappy before he went and from the first signs of his MLC .
love B x
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B
When you mentioned your ski accident, it brought to mind when I was on a mountain biking route with H and fell off my bike. He actually seemed to look at me in disgust! He made no effort to come and help me up, it was unbelievable.
So, if your H now says he remembers how bad it was for you and how upset he was, he must be feeling something again. Did they really hate us so much at the time that we annoyed them by getting hurt? Yet he says now that he was upset? I would love someone to explain all that!!!! Maybe he is feeling guilt now for the way he acted?
I hope your H is moving forward, B
HUGS
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Stayed, I have a question for your H too.
He said he knew you were there for him, and you were the anchor, however when he saw you going on with your life, he was afraid he might lose you. Then he said, if you're not there for them, they can just get more wrapped up in the dream/illusion?
So I'm wondering if I threatened divorce, if it would help him see I was serious and moving on,not just separating.( I do intend to divorce if he hasn't got his head together by the time the separation comes through)
Just wondering if this would help shake him up, or help him get more wrapped up into the fantasy life.
(sorry if you standers find this offensive, but I'm not intending to stand forever-I'm putting a time limit on my stand)
Thanks
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Hello Rememberer:
Let's get something out of the way, right now... NEVER UTTER A THREAT, YOU DO NOT MEAN! If you have no intentions of honestly going through with it, then don't do it, For one thing, if you did threaten it and then didn't do it... they would never take you seriously again and this could string out for years and years. You need this time to SORT YOURSELF OUT, there is no QUICK ROAD through this. Remember, you are dealing with a 17 to 10 year old. Did you issue THREATS to you daughters... ie. if you do that, you are out of this house, I will not have that under MY ROOF.... I somehow doubt it. I expect you threatened most anything but NEVER kicking them out. Well don't do that to your h either, or he will react just like your girls would have.
If you want to find yourself divorced, then that is the way to do it. You are in no state at the moment to be dating anybody. Not just because it would not be fair to the other person, but it would be outright wrong for you to get involved in any emotional entanglement without FIRST finishing your JOURNEY and knowing exactly what you want.
If you do, the same thing will happen with the next person, only it may not be him who will cheat, it will be you. Unless we have figured ourselves out, the cycle will just go on and on... with the next and the next. No shortcuts Rememberer.... SORRY honey. You have to learn to love yourself and love being ALONE, truly alone. When you have learned that, you will then be able to share your life with another.
hugs kiddo....
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Could you or your H answer this question? When your H 'woke up' was it suddenly or gradual, Did he start to see that he was living a fantasy and yet run back into the fantasy and in their word ping pong about? What really made him realise; beside you moving on and scaring him that his happy ending may not be a reality, when he was ready; (in his movie) that he had to do something Now and not tomorrow??
Sorry, I didn't get back to you sooner. I asked my h personally about your question. No, it was not SUDDEN, it was very, very slow. He says he started having more and more realizations that the situation he was in, was a HUGE FANTASY. He also became worried that he could end up with NOBODY.... ME OR HER... OR ANYBODY else for that matter. He told me it was like having 2 people living within him. One was his intellect, that knew he was being really stupid.... and then another emotional person, who wanted to believe that his relationship with the OW was different, then others, his was true love. He said the emotional one was much more powerful then the intellect, although, he thinks he hated to admit he could be JUST as stupid as anybody else.
Everything about us annoyed them, even if we got hurt, somehow, it was our fault. We were doing it to get their attention... or just get any attention. Really crazy thinking.... they are the teenagers, they never were.... defiant, mean, belligerent, arrogant, aggressive, passive aggressive, not very nice teens and would hve been quite a handful for any parent.
hope this helps .... hugs...
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stayed
a very interesting and thought provoking answer, and fits in with the running back into the tunnel i guess .... i think my H is at this place but is no longer with the OW, is spending a lot of time on his own and feeling very sorry for himself (booked a weekend where our ad at University - asked her out for dinner - she went then told her he was there for the weekend and when she said oh not I'm going to XX to a party he said I knew you would be too busy to spend time with me, she said if you'd told me I would not have arranged to go to XX but he just looked sad???
this is so frustratinghey?
thanks to your H for his honesty XXXX
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It is very frustrating time bewildered. It takes them a long time before they really understand how much this affected, even their university children. Mine we 19, 22,24, 25, 26 years of age... 2 were married, oldest child was expecting her first baby... she had miscarried one already and he could not understand, that the stress he was causing her, made her worry about loosing that baby. HE JUST DIDN'T GET IT bewildered. He actually felt very let down by THEM... like they had betrayed him.
I think we had been reconciled for 18 months before he actually could see that he OWED the children an apology, and that he was the one who had betrayed them. They are really messed up... that's all I can say.
hugs kiddo, just reread his letter, each time you will hear something more and more... I have read it dozens of times and each time find something else of use.
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;DThanks so much for your words .. interesting that is why this is so unreal this MLC and how so many of us have the same issue, stories, etc.
My H doesn't get how much he hurts the people he loves - he looks at me with puppy dog eyes when I asked him 2 weeks ago - to please just stop lying to me .. have some respect for the years we have know each other if for nothing else. I also have asked him too to stop ignoring me at industry events .. he says I don't but he does !
He actually felt very let down by THEM... like they had betrayed him.
But I have seen a recent change in him and the kids too since the above conversation i had with him as if he is beginning to get it!! just a baby step that's all but a beginning hey?
B XX
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But I have seen a recent change in him and the kids too since the above conversation i had with him as if he is beginning to get it!! just a baby step that's all but a beginning hey?
If you are seeing the changes, then they are happening honey. Just try not to have any EXPECTATIONS and do not show him that you are seeing the changes. Seems kind of sad doesn't it... but this is where the difference is between dealing with children and dealing with an MLC adult who is behaving like a child. You can not show that you notice any changes in him, you must pretend indifference. Not fair I know, but you can't start to help them through the end part of their journey until you see MANY changes, not just the odd one here and there.
You will know when it is time to reach out and give him a hand. Confused yet? :o I know, we have told you over and over, that you can't fix them etc... and you can't.... BUT when they come out of the tunnel completely, they OFTEN need a little assistance, sorting through what they have learned. That is the time that we get involved. That is the time that we set out the boundaries and expectations and hopes for whatever our future relationship is going to be.... BUT NOT UNTIL the right time.
Your gut will know bewildered.... pay very close attention... if you are undecided at any point, that means... do not do what you are thinking of doing.... it means, stand back, hold your tongue and wait for further growth. Your "gut" will let your assistance, POP OUT almost before you realize you were going to say it. YOU WILL KNOW HONEY.
Rule of thumb... if in doubt.... SHUT UP! lol
hugs bewildered.... looking forward to hearing more about your sitch... much love
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Okay, Stayed,
I hear you LOUD and CLEAR. You are right again, and today I can see that clearly. You have to understand (and I'm sure you do) that we go through a whole gambit of emotions from day to day, and sometimes all in one day!
Sometimes I'm so sad, and despondent and other times mad as hell that all I want to do if get the divorce and get him out of my life!
I understand what you're saying though and I'm going to stick to that plan. Detach, GAL, go dim or dark with H, and heal myself until I'm whole. I stil haven't made up my mind as to whether I'm standing for the marriage, however I'm standing and on my feet and am just THANKFUL for that right now.(Thanks to all of you for that, too). I will not date just because I'm not ready for anyone or to enter into a Healthy relationship.
I'm having a good day today and liking the feel of my new freedom and independence. I just hope it continues for a while!
Sometimes it's tough to hear, but I do appreciate you being frank with me. It's got me back on track.
Thanks
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. I stil haven't made up my mind as to whether I'm standing for the marriage, however I'm standing and on my feet and am just THANKFUL for that right now.(Thanks to all of you for that, too). I will not date just because I'm not ready for anyone or to enter into a Healthy relationship.
Quite frankly rememberer to me STANDING is exactly how you just described.... standing for yourself until you become healthy and whole again. That is the perfect description of standing. I think many think it is standing for the marriage no matter what, but that is not how I see standing. We stand until we are healthy and whole again, then we are able to make sensible, rational decisions. Until that time, stand true to yourself girl, carry on renewing your acquaintance with yourself. I didn't hold out much hope of my marriage being saved, I was hopeful, but I knew the only way it EVEN stood a chance, was for me to REPAIR myself, make some essential changes of myself and prove to myself that I could/would have a good life, with or without my h. I knew that that was the only way, our marriage could be improved if we did reconcile and I also knew, that if we didn't, that would be ok.
You are then making decisions based on what YOU NEED, not on what your h wants, or anybody else. This is the one time in your life, when it is OK to be totally selfish, totally self centered, as it is the only way you will be able to determine what is best for YOU and how to do it.
hugs rememberer.... thinking of you....
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posted my latest h antics on my thread stayed but below - your views please?
Up-date
H who seemed to be moving forward is still on his replay Journey me thinks but confusing bit is he keeps doing some new very strange things just an example:
1. Work issues - forgetting he has plans to do something - meeting or similar then organising a train journey somewhere else then having a call saying where are you so rushing to meeting then missing his train
2. Booking 4 train tickets to the same place but with 20 mins difference to where he's going to but all the same journey's back home (woo - think this may be a sign?)
3. Organising a weekend at D university town but forgetting to tell her so she is only there for a few hours and he is sad but says well why would you want to spend time with me?
4. Ordering a veggie meal bec he now is a vegetarian and then saying he doesn't like vegetarian food so not eating it
5. Three days later eating lamb dinner with son
6. Telling D21 that he is going out with his lesbian friends and gay male friends tomorrow for dinner but joking with them that because they organised it early evening it has to be because they like strictly come dancing/dancing with the stars? They didn't find this funny as they do like this programme and he said he had upset them but didn't understand why?
7. changing his mind every 5 minutes, still lying and exaggerating his stories of fun fun and more fun, acting like he is about 16 one moment then he is grown up and lovely then hes 16 again then he is hanging around with 70 year old at the pub?
8. used to be a committed Liberal Democrat (like his liberal mother) now a Tory - Conservative like me as I have always been
9. Showing D21 and S23 his app for happiness - I phone of which D said had his top 5 things that made him happy where
1 running
2 cycling
3 swimming
4 gym
5 hill walking
top 5 he didn't participate in as it made him unhappy
1 resting
2 watching TV
3 reading
4 cooking
5 do jobs or diy
she said D don't you ever stop doing stuff he said no then I would have to think about things and that would make me unhappy!!!
so any guesses here everyone what is this MLC man at? I
Bewildered with a loony toons H XXXX
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Seems to know exactly what he is doing and why! Not much you can do about that.... detach and get on with your own healing, your own life....H is going to crash and burn eventually.... nothing anybody can do to stop that... sounds like he is setting others up to let him down and then saying who can blame them.... POOR ME!
Get on with living bewildered, he sounds like he's got a long ways to go yet. Don't put your life on hold, just detach from his nonsense and keep taking care of yourself
hugs
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It's funny how along time ago I had decided that I would not touch any of my H's stuff (computer, DVD, stereo, etc.) so if were to break he couldn't blame me. So is the same with detachment, if we step back and they crash and burn then they no longer can blame us. Who will they blame then ? Hopefully the OW, ha ha !!
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Stayed
thanks for your view and I am doing my own life - he is your right as they all are quite aware of what they do or want but its the why they do it that is the MLC bit isn't it?
why would anyone want his life not me or my children who think he is crazy and so do his colleagues, its such a shame - but the running has to stop some time and the demons faced - well i hope so
XXX
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B,
Awhile back I asked my counseler why my H had to be with the ow when he couldn't even be with me when he was home. Her answer was as long he is with her to keep him occupied he does not have time to think about us or what they are doing. She said that men are also able to turn off feelings or thoughts unlike us females. So as long as he is working, occupied or with the ow he does not think of all the wrong he has done and therefore does not acknowledge it so it doesn't exist.
She also told me that they do forget things and my H started forgetting things. He called my daughter three things about the same event coming up in March of this year and he called her three times in a row about it in February. She kept telling him the same thing but he didn't remember.
My H also liked hanging out with the younger kids (my 21 year old daughters friends and trying to stay up as late as he could) I was worried about him not getting enough sleep and he said he could sleep when he was dead.
Also, he had to keep busy all the time. Never doing anything at home but had to be at the club, doing things there, hanging out with whoever just to keep busy and not be at home (counseler said he didn't want that responsibility and being at home and seeing me or hearing my voice made him remember he had responsblitiy). He always had to be on the go or he got bored.
That is all I can tell you that I have been told. She told me this was the MLC because he did not want any responsibilty and wanted a different life that he thinks will make him happy but wont.
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hey Hamp, just to weight in on what you said. Your counselor is wrong in my opinion, men can't just turn their feelings and thoughts on and off (my h actually told me this, as he wished he could, which confirms my theory). If that was the case, there wouldn't be any MLC as the MLCer would just turn the aforementioned feelings off. The MLCers just keep themselves occupied with whatever distractions they have. For some it's sports, for others it's drinking, hanging out with younger people etc. They welcome any distraction as long as it keeps them from thinking.
Looking back, my h always enjoyed the company of college kids at his sports club. They didn't have any responsibilities etc. and I'm sure in one way or another he envied them. It became a problem between us as he wanted to keep living the bachelor lifestyle not acknowledging the responsibilities he had (even prior to meeting me).
It's the same for us, when we're occupied we don't think about our pain and the situation we're in. When I'm at work, I only think about it when I'm not busy.
I know that my h has been tormented by his own feelings and thoughts. He told me on several occasions he couldn't sleep cause he kept on thinking about stuff even though he was exhausted.
hope this helps
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I agree purple stain, saying that about men is horribly "generalizing"... obviously, not all men do that, if so, why do we have men in the same situation as us, at this moment, whose WIVES are having an MLC? I think all people do that, when they do not wish to face something, they DISTRACT themselves with FUN THINGS, or at least things they think should be fun. My h did that, he even said that in his letter here. Keep yourself so busy you have no time to think.... THAT WAS HIS SOLUTION to his problems, anything but FACING THEM!
Men and women alike, do this. MLC/ betrayal is not a "gender specific" affliction. Both sexes partake almost equally in this. I believe that as more women become as successful as men, you will see even more women suffering from this. Quite honestly, I think it is mostly just a means of coping with life, or at least starts out that way. Then the chaos and carnage becomes evident and people in general just don't know how to put the "genie back in the bottle". I think it is an attempt to put fun and happiness back in their lives and for most of us, those happy, irresponsible days were in our youth. So, when our lives become too much of a burden, when our inner happiness is screaming for attention, it seems like a natural starting point to me. The problem is, we are not 16 or 25, we are not single with no responsibilities..... takes a while to FIGURE that out sometimes.
Given time though, most do. Given time you will also rekindle your own childish zest and joy for life. Once that happens, you have a very good place to reboot your new life. Start fresh with the zest and zeal of youth but the wisdom of age. Seems like a darn good place to start from to me.
I wouldn't worry too much about the "why's".... in the end, it really doesn't matter. It will be what you MAKE of your own life, from this day forward. Whether you are able to use this to your advantage and rebuild yourself into a better person and hopefully, use what you have learned from this to rebuild a new life, with or without your spouse.
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Stayed, I have posted something on my thread in the subscribers area, which you do not access so I have some question here for you. H. set up meeting with our D17 & S14 to meet OW without my knowledge (and against our original informal agreement) after weeks of pressure although in the end it was their decision to meet her. We have two older children who refuse to meet with her.
I only found out yesterday after D24 said I needed to speak to D17. H.'s actions / antics have caused a rift between the older & younger children. When I found out yesterday I confronted h. who said it was none of my business. He was due to take S14 to cinema yesterday evening and then OW & her D13 asked to go as well. In the end S14 went with his dad on his own.
It was not a nice scene; however, it is clear that h. is trying to juggle many balls and not managing to keep anyone happy. Some of what he said was laughable such as I did not have the moral right to stop him seeing his children. For the record I never have. He also said I should trust him.
Hearing him talk about morals and trust shows how deep in the fog he is at the moment.
He even blamed me for him not having much contact with children - complete rubbish.
I know your children were older when your h. lived with OW so you may not have any direct experience here.
My gut instinct is to limit contact between OW & my children to avoid them getting pulled too far into this drama. It is a seriously mixed up relationship with her own D13 have problems at school and already having sex - my h. told D17 this. Also, OW pulled her children out of school to move 100+ miles so that my h. could be near his children. It was her idea!
Both of my younger children are now having problems at school - grades slipped dramatically in 3 months.
A counsellor told me that normally divorcing parents are asked to wait 12 months before introducing new partners and told me that this current situation is very unhealthy (as if I didn't know).
Now that your h. is out the other side do either of you have a view on how to handle and protect children. If you children had been younger would what would you have done? Would also be interested in hearing if your h. has a view on this
CrazyStuff
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Just catching up on this thread, it is fascinating reading.
Bewildered and true to myself,
Your comments about your Hs lack of concern when you hurt yourself, brings back a situation of my own.
Around 3 years ago, I had a number of health problems which I struggled to deal with. I discovered I had a heart problem, which needed surgery twice. Shortly after that I was diagnosed with diabetes. As a result of that, I started to experience panic attacks, when I would go to the supermarket and had to queue for any length of time. My H was under considerable stress already holding down 2 jobs and studying for a degree. So to say he had little sympathy for what I was going through was an understatement. He would really lose his temper, something he had never done before, and he would tell me it was time I got over it and that I should snap out of it. He had always been so caring so this was a big shock for me, to think I was a nuisance. It got to the point where he wouldn't even attend hospital appointments with me. Looking back, I think this probably kick started his MLC, as looking after a sick wife was not how he had foreseen his future.
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Hi Crazystuff, quite honestly I don't know. To my mind, reflecting backwards to when my children were 13 and 17, they pretty much had minds of their own. Even in the courts, I do believe they are allowed to choose the parent they prefer in the event of a divorce.
I think that as long as you make it clear to your children that you will support whatever they decide to do, is the most important part. They should not feel like they are betraying you, for wanting to keep their father in their lives. You probably should have a discussion with your older children as well. They need to remember that they had their father for a few more years then the younger kids... and the younger kids are probably afraid of loosing him completely... shouldn't happen but children and teens do worry about such things.
Your two teens need the support of their older siblings and yourself and be allowed to decide what they THINK they would like to do. If they try, believe me, and they DO NOT LIKE IT.... they will say so, teens usually don't hold back a lot. ;D
Hugs sweetie... be strong, don't wait, STAND... stand until YOU are healed, until you know what YOU want.... turn this thing around and make it about YOU honey, not HIM!
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Stayed, thank you. This all makes sense. The younger children want to remain with me and have never considered anything else. It is also true though that they are scared of losing their dad.
This evening we are going to have a family conflab to talk through all of this (minus the missing MLCer) - I will support them in seeing their father even if it is with OW & her family; however, the recent sneaking around, lies and half truths has to stop as it is not healthy.
Youngest, aged 14, does not know what to do and just goes along with things.
Turns out OW knew when she met the children last weekend that no-one had spoken to me; she also has been seen on our street twice in the last week. She didn't stay around last night though when I confronted h.
When this all started h. was to get an apartment on his own for 12 months nearby and see our children most days (helping with homework, etc,.). He also promised me he would not bring her anywhere near our neighbourhood. I know you cannot trust a MLCer so I should not be surprised. As for her, even my D17 knows that no sane mother would put their own children into the situation she has or pretend it was o.k. living with a married man.
The man I knew six months ago has disappeared and the shell that is left is a liar, manipulative, insensitive and a coward.
Another bit of MLC craziness - H. told D17 that he was not having an affair because I knew about it so therefore could not be considered as such. My children have had to listen to this crap for the past two months and he still hasn't shut up.
I am thankful that I threw him out (although he seems to have forgotten that now) as I really believe he would have continued for some time living at home and sneaking off to see OW when it pleased him. Will shortly start a new thread (current one starts with 'I threw him out....' and put this first part of MLC behind me.
I am strong although I did look at H. last night and thought 'You are pathetic'. This is now about me and as long as he continues to pay his share of the bills I want nothing to do with him.
About to go out for a long walk in the bright cold sun before making dinner.
Have a good day and many thanks for stepping in here.
CrazyStuff
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Glimmer, Stayed, Ha mp, PS, CS and JKM
- I know my H has been since he left doing stuff/ anything to not think or face his issues - he told me s much - sorta cries for help - and whilst STAYED you see his actions as him knowing what he's doing and totally in control (I agree) it's because he is in such control that he will fall apart eventually and I do see the cracks appearing - he is slowly not being able to continue his running away (I think he is terrified about coming home because he wont want to leave) he is seeing more of the children or trying to, reconnecting with his old life- slowly facing his issues one by one. Most interesting is his dealing with the major issues (his lack of empathy, concern, etc I had with us that I had tried to discuss and got nowhere (well I discussed he just stared at me with a wide eyed rabbit in the headlights look on his face) one thing Id told about one of his colleagues he would not listen - I have been proved 100% right and so for another 3 things he just could not see - but has subtly let me know he knows I was right and he is sorry
BUT
He is still scared at how he is going to fix his life so he running again its the easy option isn't it for now................
B XX
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I think the selfishness, apathy, and general numbness to anyone else's feelings of MLCers is what I just can't wrap my head around. My H was such a caring father before all of this and now just nothing. He too has caused such a rift between him and his Ds that I don't know if it is ever repairable.
My D22 said the other day that he is not allowed in our home. I told her that it isn't her decision as this is my house now and I will decide that. I will however take their feelings into concern as I know somewhere deep down the devoted family man is still there.
I think his new life is tumbling down around him but lacks the courage to do anything about it. As long as he stays away he doesn't have to face us.
I agree with what Stayed said I believe that he let the genie out of the bottle and doesn't know how to put him back. I have told him where I stand that it is not in my nature to close the door. I don't know if that was the right thing to tell him as he knows he has a soft place to fall when he actually does crash and burn.
For now he is still running, running and running some more. I will just have to watch and wait to see if any nuggets of truth actually did get through that thick fog.
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I also think my H is totally in control and knows exactly what he is doing. He is playing a game that stops him facing up to reality as he doesn't want to deal with it right now.
A while ago I asked him if he felt guilty or ashamed of the way he was treating people. Shifting his emotions from me to OW, when he left from visiting home and then going to see her.
He told me he had learnt how to switch off from the guilt, so he doesn't have to think about it. He said he just pushes it to the back of his mind and forgets about it. It must put him under so much extra pressure, making sure he doesn't confuse where he is, or which one of us he is with at the time. All the while though, the guilt is building up like a snowball and is going to have to be dealt with at some point when it hits him in the face.
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Hi everybody:
You are all right in what you are saying. Accept, there is no problem with saying to your spouse, "LOOK, WHEN YOU GET YOURSELF SORTED OUT, I will most likely still be around BUT, I am working hard on MYSELF, I am seeing my ability to Live on my own for MYSELF and I am liking the person I am becoming. As of now, I am NOT IN ANY RUSH, to date, or find another, but of course I can not guarantee that I will ALWAYS be here. Thanks to you, I am learning a great deal about myself, relationships and marriage and now feel that I will be able to have a WONDERFUL life, with you or another.
This has become ABOUT ME, now. It started out, all about YOU! But, thanks to your betrayal, abandonment etc. I have become very strong. I am proud of the person I am becoming. I hope you can say the same thing some day.
Then get on with your life. Leave him to get on with his!
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Crazystuff:
I agree with letting your children know, that it is OK with you about seeing their father. Just make it clear to them that they do not have to LIE for their father. That anything they are questioning, feel free to DISCUSS it with you.
I have heard children that feel they have to lie for one parent, often have severe psychological problems later in life. So encourage them to talk to you about anything.
An MLCer does lie. That is the ONLY thing you know for sure, he/she is lying. The best you can do is what you are doing Crazystuff. You are handling your children very well indeed. The younger ones must not be allowed to feel that they are betraying and letting you down, because they want a relationship with their father. You are a very strong lady and I commend you for the way you have stood.
Hugs Crazystuff... you are doing fantastic...get the youngsters sorted out, give them permission to have whatever relationship they want with their father, the older ones too. If they don't want to have anything to do with their father, fine. Their choice, but they must respect the wishes of each other. Simply tell them, that you all need each other more then ever now... each can/will respect whatever they choose.
Keep going Crazystuff, you are on the road to being a new person, great to start with but incredible at the end.... THIS IS OUT YOU now honey.... go for it..!
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CS
Just to let you know - for a referernce I have from the beginning never got invovled with my H and the relationship he I told him was responsible for with his children - he but he managed (dont ehy all) to hurt them with his behaviour and it has nothing to do with me ..
I now think it is making him see himself as he really is (only a tiny bit though don't get excited) and he is reaping what he has sowed, they use him for money, free meals and a place to stay only if there is no where else they can stay ..
karma is what its called .. so if you do this you can hold your head up if karma comes his way (and it will I promise), as long as you have no guilt, not done anything to harm his relationship with them, so say nothing, do nothing, let him sort his life out how he beleives he wants too ...............till he doesnt?
then it I hope will get interesitng!
love and XX B
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Yep, I've stepped back from my H's relationship with his Ds as of now is in the toilet. But it is his problem to repair not mine. I'm not going to give him any ammunition in which to blame me for another woe in his life. Pretty much right now both of my Ds have written him off and it's all so sad but nothing I can do about it.
Stayed, It's so funny you mentioned about letting H know where we stand. I just had this same, almost verbatim, conversation with my H. I will watch, wait and let him process our conversation. I continue NC as everytime I see him or talk to him I go swirling to the beginning of this crisis,and I don't want to return to that place again.
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I forwarded the letter that Stayed's H wrote to my H. I prefaced it that I felt that he might be feeling the same way that Stayed's H felt during his crisis.
My H told me that he read the letter and said that a lot of what was said resonated with him and that the letter was insightful. He said that he had never thought of his situation that way, but that it made sense.
I was glad that he was positive about it. I was not showing him the letter to snap him out of anything, but I DID want him to see the similarities in his current situation and Stayed's H's situation back then, and possibly plant a few seeds.
I sent him the letter without any regret or fear. I knew that I was ready for any kind of response - whether good or bad.
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FHO,
You sound so brave... I'll pray that those seeds will produce some positive movements.
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Thanks, ece. I am seriously at a point now that I throw caution to the wind without any regard. I know that I will be OK with or without my H - the more time that passes, the stronger I feel in this conviction.
It has been a long and tedious road, and there are more hard times in my future, but I am ready to face anything that comes my way.
xoxoxo
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I hope it helps FOREVER, I know my h wrote it in the hopes that anybody who was going through this just might help them out of it. He actually wrote it for me though. That was his way of explaining how he felt during the whole miserable situation. He wanted me to UNDERSTAND, that although it seemed to be personally against me, it was not. It was totally about HIM.
Most of us were pretty darn good spouses. Sure, there was room for improvement, isn't there always? But MLC isn't about us, I think we all realize that now.
All any of us can do is, throw the whole mess up in the wind and let the pieces fall where they may. Work on ourselves to become the best people we can be and benefit as much from this mess as is humanly possible. We didn't choose this path, but like it or not, we have to deal with it. AND deal with it, you WILL!
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Stayed
Can your H or you (do you remember this stage?) shed any light on Withdrawal - this stage is so confusing..... do the MLCer function normally example: do they go to work and act normally?, do they also withdraw from their children except when they need to answer texts - emails or see them as planned but withdraw as much as they can example: no phone calls/seeing them unless they have no choice etc (I think they do from what I've read but not sure ) B x
see below from HB -
the stage of Withdrawal.
It is also during this time, they will navigate obstacles and question themselves, somewhat, working their way toward what is called the "final fears" Not much is known about what the final fears contain think it is beginning to accept the death of everything they have ever known, including the death of their "old" lives; AND beginning to accept their own mortality without being afraid of it-Depression sets them up for this journey across an open field toward an archway to face these fears. During this time, they will NOT communicate with ANYONE, not even their spouse, as they are drawn so far within, no one can reach them. They MUST be allowed to continue, with NO interruptions, just like before-they will NOT come out until they are READY to come out.
Just like in Depression, they want to left alone, still processing their issues and the damage they have done to their spouse and their lives, and they make several decisions during this time concerning their lives, job, and marriage. But those WON'T be known UNTIL they break Withdrawal and talk to their spouse the first time
Editted for misplacement of color HTML - should be inside quote bars(not outside) OldPilot
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I'm also interested in the "waking up". We see so many men on this forum that are just back and forth and some that are determined to be done. Do you know anything about what went on during his wake up period? Was it gradual for him or BANG in an instant. It's hard to imagine the emergence of the old person...although I know now changed. when they are so different.
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Bewildered and Buggy31
Can your H or you (do you remember this stage?) shed any light on Withdrawal - this stage is so confusing..... do the MLCer function normally example: do they go to work and act normally?, do they also withdraw from their children
The worst withdrawal that my h suffered during his affair was while I was in New Zealand. He started calling our oldest daughter, crying, begging her to tell him where he could find me. Sobbing on the phone "I need your mother" that he was so sorry for what he had done and he would spend the rest of his days making it up to your mother. My daughter refused to give him my address but reluctantly she did tell me when I called her a couple of weeks after these calls started. Ow had gone home to see her family in the states and he was suppose to be joining her, to meet her family as her latest "future husband". He had his ticket purchased and he did not go. Apparently, he told our daughter, he just couldn't do it. She THOUGHT he was sincere but she just didn't trust him. A couple of days later, I decided to call. He was OVERJOYED, he was so excited, he actually started crying, telling me how sorry he was and how much he loved me. We talked for about an hour and he excitedly assured me he would see the travel agent today and make arrangements to join me next week. I was to call him the next day. I called he didn't sound as excited, but he really wanted to come his flight arrangements would be confirmed later that day,he was apprehensive because he sent OW an email telling her he was coming back to me. She had been calling all day and all night, he was not answering his phone. Call again tomorrow, he'll let me know arrival time. I called the next day, he had not shown up for work, everybody was concerned as he had been totally crazy in the last week or so. I called back a few hours later, they had located him, he was at OW's house by himself as she was away. He had been drinking on top of his meds, so was drunk and stoned, they assured me he was ok. Two days later I received an email saying... "this is not what it looks like". That was the last time I heard from him for about 5 weeks.
He went into total withdrawal. No he did not go to work for at least a week, I heard. The OW returned unexpectedly and he was so impressed that she had canceled her holidays and come home to him, he was finally totally CONVINCED that she loved him, like nobody else could. (this he told me himself after we reconciled) Nobody had EVER done such a wonderful thing for him. Apparently they went away for 3 or 4 days and then returned to work. NONE of us heard from him at all. Not me. Not the kids.
Bewilderer, no they do not act normally, often miss work and distance themselves from everybody, including their children. :(
I'm also interested in the "waking up". We see so many men on this forum that are just back and forth and some that are determined to be done. Do you know anything about what went on during his wake up period? Was it gradual for him or BANG in an instant. It's hard to imagine the emergence of the old person...although I know now changed. when they are so different
Buggy31 According to my h it was not like BANG... it did came together quite rapidly though. From what I have been able to piece together, that first phone call(mid April) that I made to him from N.Z. when he cried and sounded so happy to hear me, if he had gone through with those arrangements that would have been the BANG, the sudden awakening, that I think you are envisioning. Not to be. As you read above he went into total WITHDRAWAL for a good 5 weeks after that encounter. I packed up and returned to Canada a week later (April 20th. rings a bell), my retreat, my great escape totally ruined. I thought I was done.
His awakening I believe started while I was in N.Z., I think the desire to join me in N.Z. was sincere but the unexpected return of OW threw him back into confusion. I think he felt very guilty about not joining her in the states and meeting her family. He realized he had deeply embarrassed her, as she had told her entire family that her fiance was coming to meet them. Then even after he had disappointed and embarrassed her, she had come rushing back to be at his side, expressing concern and fear for his well being. In fact when he had not shown up as planned, she had caught the first flight available back to Europe, because she knew she was loosing him. Of course, she was very cleaver and played it like she was so horribly worried about him, as she knew how stressed and badly he felt about "the divorce".(for the record he had lied to her and told her that he had filed for divorce) She routinely assured him, that of course he still loved me and he always would, because I was the mother of his children and we had been together for such a long time, but he couldn't help being in love with her because they were meant to be together.
That euphoria lasted about 5 weeks. (total withdrawal from family) During this period of nonsense, I had a total meltdown and reached DETACHMENT, let go completely, had seen a lawyer about a separation, bought a new car and was looking at a smaller home, intending to sell our bigger family home. Then the phone calls started in a frenzy, just in time for our 29th. anniversary which is June 4th. Bazaar conversations, flowers with messages like "I should have listened"... gifts. The end of June he sent me an anniversary ring and a plane ticket for July 5, 2006.
He has told me that during that 5 weeks, and the rest of June he was in absolute torment and terribly conflicted. He was impressed that OW had returned just out great concern for him. He felt terrible about everything that had happened from April when he did not join OW in the states, to getting in contact with me, promising to join me in New Zealand and then not doing so. He waffled between thinking he had burned all his bridges with me, that he was now "stuck" with OW as he was sure there was no way I would ever take him back plus, he really didn't want to hurt OW anymore then he already had as he felt she truly loved him. He was in quite a state.
I would say that for him, the awakening took at least 3 months, give or take a week or so. As I have said before, I don't think he was totally out of his MLC though at that time. I think, he finally completed his journey around early January of 2008.
Without a doubt he was over the worst part of his MLC when we reconciled in July 2006 but he was still quite self possessed. It was very frustrating, as he just did not show true remorse for the entire situation. He certainly felt very badly about what he had done, but his remorse was mostly for himself. I think he was embarrassed and humiliated at his total loss of control, his lack of professionalism (seriously, shacking up with a woman who worked for you, by his standards, totally unprofessional), betraying his wife, himself, his children, he was now forever an adulterer, loss of honor and integrity, traits he prided himself on, loss of respect in my eyes and mostly his children. Looking at it from his point of view, I can almost see where he was coming from. (never looked at like that before) I do believe he felt he could handle me and control our reconciliation, without having to bare his soul and truly have to repent for his actions.
The ENORMITY of what he had put our children and myself through, hit him hard and quite suddenly. We had just returned from our Christmas/New Year vacation 07/08, we had enjoyed ourselves immensely. I was telling him how glad I was that we had somehow found our way back to each other. For some reason this led me to telling him about the night he left me and how I had wondered if we would ever again be together and now here we were. I was so happy.
I thought I was telling him something wonderful and was expressing my delight and happiness in being back with him. I looked at him to see if he was paying attention to me (you know men ::)) and he was sobbing uncontrollably. I was stunned. Here I was telling him how happy I was to have him back and he's crying his eyes out. He reached out and wrapped his arms around me and starting apologizing for hurting me like that. He kept saying, "how did you get through that night, you are so strong, I can't believe I did that to you, I am so sorry, I am so sorry".
He never returned to his tunnel again. My husband was back.
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Stayed
Thank you for this insight into your H turning round and heading for home.
The clarity will help us all understand what demons our H/W are dealing with as they push for the end of the tunnel. Currently my H is struggling with the responsibility of OW and the desisions he has to make and your post is very helpful.
xx
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Stayed.
Thanks for that great explanation of everything. It really helps put so much into perspective... This MLC thing is madness... just madness I tell you! :)
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Stayed
Me too (along with JA, NG) - thanks so much for this insight - very useful information for us all.
B XX
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Ladies and any possible gentlemen:
Our MLCer's place themselves in the most bazaar situations, then they use each and every one of them to confuse themselves with. They want us to sort it out for them, yet if we even tried... they bite our heads off, probably down to the waist. They are very FOOLISH people at the moment. Who want, demand our sympathy and compassion, then laugh in our faces for being so easily MANIPULATED. Sometimes they outfox themselves, as my h did.
I will tell you, one of my husbands greatest regrets was not DROPPING everything and joining me in New Zealand. To this day, he bemoans the missed opportunity of executing one of the most ROMANTIC episodes of his life. hehehe.
hugs my friends, my new toast to the new year is "Missed Opportunities, may they be few!"
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Stayed
this is just how my H is acting now .. in fact I think he is testing me to the limit at the moment (manipulating circumstances so I have to go to him for his assistance re finances) but your right when you say,
They want us to sort it out for them, yet if we even tried... they bite our heads off, probably down to the waist. They are very FOOLISH people at the moment. Who want, demand our sympathy and compassion, then laugh in our faces for being so easily MANIPULATED
But why do you think they want to hurt us with manipulation - what is this all about - they left us there so happy (well they pretend to be) so why?
But again your right my h demands respect, sympathy and empathy but when its not forthcoming he teaches me and the kids his lesson - he ignores us till we have to go to him for only one thing money!! without money giving to his college kids they would not even speak to him! what a silly man and so ridiculous - did your H know he was hurting his kids as from what your saying they know they are hurting us and seems they don't even care?
love B XXXXX
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Hi Bewildered:
why do you think they want to hurt us with manipulation - what is this all about
Well manipulation is all about CONTROL, isn't it? Controlling feels empowering! When they are manipulating it makes them feel powerful and in control. I expect, like myself, your h was good at manipulating, good at somehow making you feel like you were the one who "over reacted" or started the "argument"... somehow, mine always made me feel somewhat, inadequate. Looking back, I was always doing things for his APPROVAL, for some reason, I always wanted him to be proud of me, notice how capable I was. That never happened though, as I took on more and more, he simply sat back and let me. Then would turn it on me, calling me CONTROLLING... hehehe. That has changed since reconciliation, I feel no need to impress my h. Tbh, at first I felt he was the one who had to do the proving. Now, neither of us seem to worry too much about, we seem to be each other biggest fans at the moment, applauding each other for just being who they are.
did your H know he was hurting his kids as from what your saying they know they are hurting us and seems they don't even care?
Oh yes, he knew he was hurting the kids! At first he felt they would adjust to this, OW who had a lot of experience at switching partners, had assured him of that. At one point, he was plain pissed with the kids, felt they were being selfish and as always only though of themselves. Didn't care about his happiness, they should have understood that he "deserved" to be happy. In his mind, he felt the kids knew we had ALWAYS been unhappy, :-\ (the mind of an MLCer).
They are convinced that in the end, we will all be better off once the marriage is ended. Don't you know Bewildered, we were all UNHAPPY, this is for the best?
All you can do, is detach and let him go. Send him a text telling him you need money. Thank him when he sends it and break the connection afterward. Don't discuss it with him, be polite and respectful but remain detached.
You can do this honey... just let it happen. He can't manipulate when there is nothing to manipulate. The financial responsibilities are his, so it seems, so make him honor that. Back off and stay calm.
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My H has NC with his children and I have come to the conclusion that he is a COWARD. He is pretending in his fantasy world that everything will be alright with his R with his girls with time. STUPID, STUPID LITTLE BOY !! He has basically destroyed his R with his Ds and doesn't seem to know it or for that matter care at the moment.
My Ds have lost all respect for their father. It's all so sad but this is the choice he has made and now he will have to deal with the consequences. I have continually to encourage my girls not to close the door but I think the window of opportunity is closed. They don't want to hear from him, talk to him let alone see him.
This is our "new" family and we have all become closer for it. My Ds are so protective of me but do not seem to understand that I am hopeful for a reconciliation. They don't see it but I'm not quite ready to give up yet. I've let go completely but I remain hopeful.
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Stayed, When you talk about manipulation, are you referring to the MLCer being in a certain stage or just in general. My H is in Replay (still living with ow). I can now look back on when he was still at home and how he would turn our arguments of him being out late and drinking and not coming home to spend time with me or the family as being my fault. No matter how I approached the situation. He always made me feel like it was my fault. Like I was the one who was wrong. Like I started it and he was the one who was not doing anything wrong. He made me feel so horrible for even saying anything about him not wanting to spend time with me and the family. I still have that nauseating feeling when I think of it. Why do they do this? And why do they think what they do is not wrong? Is this typical MLC behavior?
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Hamp,
From what I've read in the articles from RCR and the many threads here that denial and projection are very typical of MLCers. They feel that they have done no wrong to anyone and they are determined to make their decision to leave their family is the right path for them. Until they face their demons they will continue on their path of self distruction.
Hamp, you are still searching for answers that you may never find. Each MLCer is different as well as each LBS is different. You are still focused on you H and not on yourself. Until you release the rope you are holding you will never move forward. I know it's very difficult for you at this time but there will come a point when you say to yourself ENOUGH IS ENOUGH !!
I have released the rope and am now letting my H go and figure out himself without my help. He has created so much damage in the path to finding his new life that there may be a time when there is a point of no return. My H thinks that I will always be there if he chooses to come back. Not too sure of it right now. So...I am Standing for myself and my Ds. I know that I will have a good life no matter what happens.
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I know my H is thinking that he cannot come back or home. He even made the remark to his mom, that he couldn't come home now if he wanted to. He also was crying when he said this.
The last time I seen him was in court this past Wednesday and he couldn't even look at me. He said hi to me so sheepishly and looked down like he was ashasmed according to my friend.
Why does he act like this? Is he really so ashamed that he can't look at me or does he hate me and can't stand to look at me? I used to be able to read him like a book and still can at times but this action from him is so confusing.
Is there anyone else out there that has gone thru this from their H? I don't know what to think. I think there is something wrong with me and that is why he will not face me. He can talk to everyone else but not me. Do you know how that makes me feel? I feel so useless and hurt. I feel so worthless and ashamed that he won't talk to me. My feelings are hurt and i think everyone thinks it is all my fault that he left but they can't see I did nothing wrong. Why do I feel this way?
My oldest daughter thinks he will finally start seeing things once the divorce is final. She says he still has everything at this point but once it is final, he will no long have his home, his family or his connection with us. It almost seems to me that he is actually looking forward to not having a family or home anymore. He acts as though he never had us as family and he has erased his past and doesn't remember it exised. How is this possible? Can they actually make themselves not remember?
I just want to find as many answers as I can because I do not think I can totally detach until I am comfortable knowing as much as I can.
Thanks for all your help
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justkeepmoving
My H has NC with his children and I have come to the conclusion that he is a COWARD. He is pretending in his fantasy world that everything will be alright with his R with his girls with time. STUPID, STUPID LITTLE BOY !! He has basically destroyed his R with his Ds and doesn't seem to know it or for that matter care at the moment.
My husband and I have talked a lot about the children since we reconciled. How he see's his behavior towards them is completely different then he did, when we first reconciled. His attitude about the children when we first reconciled was part of the reason, I wasn't sure we would make it. He was actually quite annoyed with them! Yea, unbelievable eh? He did not feel he owed them an apology, he felt that what happened was between us, that they should keep their noses out of OUR business. He also, felt that as they grew older they would understand better, he often commented that at least 2 or more of the 5 would eventually divorce themselves if statistic were correct, seeing as 50% of all marriages end in divorce. We used to get in to it real bad when we had these discussions. I was so disgusted with him. There were times when I came so close to packing my bags and leaving him.
Not sure, what made him see the light but by the time our youngest daughter got married in June 2007, he actually made his apology to them, as part of his speech at her wedding. I know it was heart sent and meant but they did not hear it as an apology whatsoever. They saw it as an attempt to extricate him from what he had done. They saw it as grandstanding. They were not impressed. 5 yrs. later if you asked any one of them, they would still claim they did not HEAR an apology.
Personally, I felt he should have done it properly, privately, with just the kids and ourselves, their partners as well. As my h's betrayal had horrendous effects on their relationships with their partners. The girls became extremely jealous and questioned their bf's every action, if they were late coming home the girls were suspicious. The boys, were just plain afraid that it might be genetic. They felt that MLC was a male problem only, they were terrified they might do the same thing to their future wives some day. The fallout from this crap is pretty spectacular, for something that an MLCer see's as a private issue that does not EFFECT anybody but their spouse and themselves, I can assure it, it definitely does not.
Our children are now 32, 31,30,28 and almost 25, they still do not respect him or trust him to remain faithful to me. If he tries to discuss relationship issues with them, they make it very clear to him, that they are not interested in his views and opinions, that in their opinion, there is nothing could say about that subject that would of ANY worth to them. That is definitely not an expert on the topic and that he is the luckiest man in the world that his wife, their mother took him back. To them, "once a cheater... always.... a cheater" is their belief. Each one of them warned him when he came back, that if he ever hurt their mother like that again, he would be dead to them.
That being said, they all admit that they are glad we reconciled. They are totally upfront that their reasons are totally selfish, as they really did not want to come from a broken home. They did not want the grandchildren to have step grandparents and last but not least, they knew and respected the fact that I WANTED our marriage to continue.
Just to show you how selfish an MLCer is, my husband actually resented their attitude, as he felt they were being ungrateful little brats, after all those years that he had been so good to them and had supported them. Silly man didn't outright say that but he did allude to it once and they told him in no uncertain terms that they felt they had paid their dues to him and his career. They felt all the moves and lectures about behavior that he had subjected them to because he was an officer etc., all the months and months his job took him away, missing many of the most important events in their lives, all the friends they had left, they had quite a list. They told him where he could stuff his indignant protests about their disrespect to him. They told him they didn't care what he thought of them, as they had no respect for him as a man, a father but mostly a husband. They were pretty brutal. Not young people to keep their opinions to themselves.
The tension between husband and the kids is better but I doubt they will ever totally forgive him and they will never forget. The price he paid for his MLC and betrayal, has been very expensive.
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Stayed
to quote you,
like myself, your h was good at manipulating, good at somehow making you feel like you were the one who "over reacted" or started the "argument"... somehow, mine always made me feel somewhat, inadequate. Looking back, I was always doing things for his APPROVAL, for some reason, I always wanted him to be proud of me, notice how capable
even through a friend - I think highly of believes my H (she understand MLC well) isn't manipulating - just lost in his fog and she thinks he maybe in withdrawal?? but who can tell, not contacted me except for the email re the finances since the `4th November. the kids not heard from him except when they text him nor has his mother )our D says she got an email from her and said she hadn't seen her son for a few months, D said have he emailed ? she said no but shed rung and he'd called back and left a message as she was playing bridge) she plays every Monday night always has so be must have forgottent his too??
BUT this description of you and your relationship sounds the same as mine - I supported whilst pregnant his MBA when he was 27 - i did one and graduated in 2006 summer and my H was too busy to come to the graduation? this is when i started to get upset at his lack of caring towards me!
the again to quote you,
At one point, he was plain pissed with the kids, felt they were being selfish and as always only though of themselves. Didn't care about his happiness, they should have understood that he "deserved" to be happy. In his mind, he felt the kids knew we had ALWAYS been unhappy,
exactly he has even (many month's ago now) has said that they have no right to criticise him or judge him or in other words tell him how they feel?
He when he upset D a lot she had to write a letter telling him how she felt he attacked her for her lack of understanding (she found out about the OW which he'd lied to her about and got her worried he was on his own when he went away and of course he wasn't! ) and care for him!! LOL a lot!!
One Q? Has your H made friends built bridges etc with the kids?
love B xxx
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I just want to find as many answers as I can because I do not think I can totally detach until I am comfortable knowing as much as I can.
Oh Hamp.
I totally feel you on this one. But, there will *always* be more out there that we will not know. A lot of our lessons will come in hindsight, so all we can truly do is trust that God has us on a path to somewhere great. We need to trust in him to take us there...
Much easier said then done... I know. I keep wanting to just go sit in some yoga studio for a year and go "ommmmm" and hope the answers will just all come to me... but I don't think it works that way. :)
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I will say that he really does try to repair the damage. The middle child/son, is the most receptive of all the children to him. He always wanted his dad's approval and in many ways gets it now. The other two sons pretty much take him as he comes and my h is fine with them.
The most discomfort is between him and the girls. Youngest daughter is courteous, says little but has as little to do with him as she possibly can. We actually talked about it when I was with her while she was having her baby. She said he is my father, I don't get in any choice with that. I wish him no ill. I am really glad that you and he seem to be having a great time together, you deserve that. She was pleased that he came for the birth of the baby, as she wants her baby and any other children she has to have a good relationship with all its'/their grandparents.
She told me that she had never felt particularly close to her father, she felt he was trying to reach out to her now and she was happy about that but she felt she would never feel for him, what she feels for me. :'(
What can you do bewilderer, he did it to himself? He did not make a personal, heartfelt apology to them, which I think would have helped draw them back to him. Instead, he took the hard ass approach of "I don't owe them an explanation"! I have said many times... "YES, YOU DO!"
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Hamp
NG is so right you need to read as much on this sites resources and then read again and the picture of a MLC will unfold in your mind and it will help you as you continues along the path of his MLC.
also what ever you think you want to do .. to react .. sleep on it and then it will seem less important
good luck
B x
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even through a friend - I think highly of believes my H (she understand MLC well) isn't manipulating - just lost in his fog and she thinks he maybe in withdrawal?? but who can tell, not contacted me except for the email re the finances since the `4th November. the kids not heard from him except when they text him nor has his mother )our D says she got an email from her and said she hadn't seen her son for a few months, D said have he emailed ? she said no but shed rung and he'd called back and left a message as she was playing bridge) she plays every Monday night always has so be must have forgottent his too??
Your h sounds like he is in full withdrawal to me... as I said... that's exactly what my h did for the last 5 weeks before he contacted me at the time of our 29 anniversary... NOBODY, heard from him. I didn't have to ask him for money as he had direct pay. I simply went to the bank.
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STAYED
THANKS again for your insight its so good of you to be supportive of us all here - i appreciate as i know my cyber friends do too - wish we could meet up sometime could do with a holiday!!!!
My H always had money on SO then it just stopped for twomonths mentioned it - nothing happened then I Had to ask which he knows I hate as I have always been self sufficient but its too hard to keep a large house ticking without some help from him?
One thing cant make my mind up .. didn't thank him for putting the money in as it wasn't a favour, he didn't pay the extras I asked for( the cost of the admin for the bounced cheques due to him not telling me he'd not paid the money in as I asked him to check 6 weeks before or the fat it was originally on SO but he'd stopped it??) Should i thank him or leave it as he agreed the money had not gone it but guess what ....................... blamed the bank
advise please
B X
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Money.. mmmmmmm I never ever thanked my h for any money that he provided during that time. Quite honestly, I felt at the time and I feel to this day, that any expenses accrued during what I call his "defection".... were caused by him, by his "actions". His MLC was not of my making, his affair was not of my making! Due to his situation I was forced to do things that I would not have done.
I can't answer whether you think you should say "thank you" for his contribution to his home, that you are maintaining as best you can, primarily at your own expense.
I don't now and didn't during his MLC say ANYTHING I didn't mean. I did not spend hours weighing my words, analyzing my every action or reaction. If I said something I meant it, if I did something I intended to do it.
That's me... what you feel is best to do, is up to you. Free world bewilderer. As long as you can look directly into your own eyes in a mirror, I figure you must be doing it right.
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Stayed
Thanks really appreciate your point of view - I have now given it a lot of thought and have decided that if he pays the other or part of the cost I asked for resulting in his not paying his agreed money towards the bills - then I am happy to say 'thanks', but not until then as he also hasn't done some other things I asked him too in regard our home after all it is also our our investment.
I also asked for a contribution for Xmas - nothing, asked him 2 months go to deal with our tank that has split (phone calls etc all is require) and he said he wound - nothing
asked him to call re Xmas and him seeing his children - nothing
Understand my reluctance to thank him? its been 8 days since his email because of my 'begging' letter!
Also I on the 10/11 asked him to come back and do some jobs I COULD NOT DO - he said, ' I don't do jobs, I'm useless you know that '. What he meant was I can't come home he is terrified of home!! My intuition and my daughters too is that when hes been back before last time 12 months ago, he doesn't want to leave .. you nearly have to peel him from the kitchen and when he leaves he doesn't look back his shoulders drop, he looks so sad .. but his choice hey?
so again thanks your view puts my spinny thoughts into perspective
I am still conflicted but will go with my instinct .. it feels right B X
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Bewildered,
I have had some experience along the line of h causing numerous financial disasters. Well, pretty much all of his MLC is a financial disaster, but I will tell you what I did regarding the bank account.
We had a joint checking account open and on the day of the bomb drop, I went and opened up my own checking account. Before all of this happened, h had been sending $300.00 to our joint account by direct deposit for our mortgage payment. We had agreed this joint account was to be used for this. Of course, 2 weeks before he left, he changed that to $100.00 which is still the amount direct deposited over a year later. Big support, huh? LOL!
When we opened up that account, he agreed with the bank about having some identity theft service put on the account. It only cost around 8 bucks a month, so he thought why not? Well, that 8 bucks a month really messed me up more than once! He wasn't giving me the $8.00 to cover this fee and I forgot about it coming out and it bounced quite a few checks. I called him and told him he needed to put in the money to cover those checks plus the $8.00. At first he balked, but I told him this was his fault. Either give me the extra money to cover it, or have the service removed.
Even though he complained both times this happened, he still deposited money into the account to cover it. He has never had the service removed. After a few months of going back and forth over this, I gave up the argument and made sure there was always money to cover that stupid $8.00 service. But, I have a record of all of that and will make sure the judge is aware of it. It simply became an issue of choosing my battles and this one wasn't even a blip on the MLC disaster screen for me.
H also deposited money into my account a few other times to help me out. I didn't make a big deal over this gesture to give me money since he has only been giving me the big, generous amount of 100 bucks a week! ::) However, I did send him a text that said I appreciated him taking care of the bounced checks and I appreciated him giving me money the couple of other times. And I simply said thank you.
I decided that I did not want to appear as the vile, hateful witch he thought I was, but I wanted him to notice that I was always polite. And that I said thank you. That I appreciated the effort it took to go to the bank and deposit the money into our account.
Now, for us, this is not a big deal. We would make sure there was money in an account and money provided for them. It would not be a major issue to go to the bank and take care of it. But, I knew it was a major issue for him. ::) So, instead of putting fuel on the fire, I decided to kill him with kindness. And, you know what? It worked every time! He was actually surprised that I reacted that way.
I'd like to tell you that h has made sure I have money all the time since those instances have happened. Ha! Fat chance that will ever happen. If you have read my thread, you know it's just the opposite.
How we react to them is the only thing we can control. Getting out of this MLC mess with our dignity is much better than acting like a horse's behind, like our spouses are! :)
I also have hated going to my h for money. But, it is what it is. I think you just need to decide for yourself how you want to react to all of his MLC. You have the power of your reactions. You can choose to keep your dignity, even if you are angry with him. It's ok to be angry.....the Bible says be angry and sin not. I just had to learn how to do the sin not part. LOL!
Hang in there! (((HUGS))) :)
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CK
your experience is useful and will re think me thanking him but don't at the moment feel this is the right thing to do.. as for dignity - i have been so kind and thoughtful towards him, never shown anger except at BD and the few weeks after but it was more sorrow and anger at him as he would not explain why - didn't know about MLC then.
if fact i still collect his mail and send it to him (thought has this once been two months worth still here didn't have the postage (as had no money) he He
he hasn't asked for it which he usually does every month if its not arrived
but Will send next week or drop off at his office - if i find the time! LOL
he is ow such a pathetic, no courage of his convictions, man - never was always was so strong and dependable now the complete opposite its so painful isn't it for us to watch and detach from as its sad to not be there for someone you love.
But they do have to work this out for themselves and for us to be able to love them in totality again X
My always i thought was a together sort of bloke isn't anymore hes crazy and pathetic and confused and well ................. the list foes on nothing but negativity B x
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Stayed & Stayed's H:
Thank you so much for sharing your insight. This is invaluable information and helps me tremendously. Thank you for your courage to share.
-Pup
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Hope it helps... hugs... Stayed and hubby lol
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Hi:
I haven't posted on my thread in a long time. I received a PM from a lady recently who wanted advice on whether there was a gentle way of giving her h notice, that she would not hold on forever. While she was at it, she revealed what her life had become in the last few years. How unhappy she had become and well, "used" she felt. While answering her message, I related why the JOURNEY we are forced upon was so beneficial to me and how it changed my life. This is my response.
Hi !!!!
I hear you girl. Strangely, this is a very familiar scenario, typical of the lives of many of the LBS's on this forum. Many of us experience similar events in our marriages. Our spouses very much had a privileged life, that we not only permitted but actually encouraged and supported.
Like yourself, we had "moments"/"events" throughout our marriages, that drove us to distraction. I think all of us would willingly admit, that much of it was due to a distorted idea that it was our JOB to support our spouses, at everything they did. That being said, we did develop "resentments" over the years, as there was very little reciprocation. All of us acknowledge that it was our own silly selves, that allowed these "habits" of our spouses to continue, more by a reluctance to insist on ourselves being heard. Sort of a situation of "anything for peace". Our fault for not pushing ourselves forward but I think many of us, took the attitude that we wanted THEM to notice for themselves. For some bazaar reason, we honestly thought, that SOMEDAY our spouses would notice all that we did for them and allowed them to do, thereby love and appreciate us.... someday.
Instead the "d!cks" went crazy, had a "depression" and went into full blown CRISIS! Some thanks? Your life, could be mine! :( .
This is why it is IMPARATIVE that we take this journey. All these "things" in our marriage must be properly assessed. WE need to determine, how much of it was ALLOWED by ourselves, why we allowed it, and for as long as it did. Then, how we would go about changing it, if our marriage survives. We also need to assess our spouse. In every way though. We can't separate these incidents in the marriage and let them define our marriage. Our marriage was obviously NOT only about our spouses "selfish" behavior, there were some very, very good times as well. We need to evaluate the good with the bad. HONESTLY, OPENLY! This takes time. When we are as upset as we are now, is not a good time to totally trust our judgement.
The other thing that I found in my journey, I also had rewritten history. I think as you examine your situation closely, like myself you will find, that many of the disturbingly upsetting events, that we are now dwelling on, occurred in the last 5 to 10 years. In fact the first 20 were damn good. There was more equality, mutual appreciation, consideration, respect. I know, when I examined my entire married life, that the lack of respect, consideration, appreciation, the "selfish", self centered-ness of my spouse, actually began sometime after the 20 yr. point. That being said, those last 10 years had become so progressively HORRIBLE, that I had rewritten our ENTIRE MARRIAGE.... which was not true.
So like our MLCer's, we too tend to rewrite our history. My journey helped me to separate and examine when the unhappy events began to encroach on what had actually been, a very happy partnership, for many, many years.
Once I got started on this journey of evaluation and discovery, I saw how and why I had allowed my spouse to become progressively more self centered and less partner oriented. It was so enlightening and empowering. It prepared me to take back my life, control the things I could control, which was only myself, my behavior my thoughts, ONLY MYSELF.
What did I discover? I had felt at the time, that I was "relieving" my h of many of the tedious chores. Thinking that he was such a busy person, that it would allow US more time as a couple, when he was home. I felt that he would love me more and be proud of how capable and thoughtful I was. Instead, he simply took advantage of me. Slowly, handing over more and more of the odious, tedious chores that he didn't like to do. It did not make him love me more, instead it made him respect me LESS. It was like, he was "laughing" at me, thinking, "what a fool, but hell, if she will do it, GREAT... HAHAHA"!
I over appreciated my husband. I was so proud of his success and his intelligence. In my desire to be a part of his success and feel a right to partake in the very prosperous lifestyle that his success benefited our family, I willingly picked up the "slack" I felt he didn't have time to do. Plus, I honestly thought that by doing so, it would free up more of his time for the children and myself. Instead, he found other things that he enjoyed for himself to fill the hours that I freed up.
I had begun to live a life of quiet desperation. Discontent. Unhappiness. Something I would not have CHANGED if he had not gone into full blown CRISIS. In many ways, this crisis released me from a life of "self imposed" servitude.
Those are just a few of the things I discovered while taking my journey. I could probably fill pages but I have a baby quilt I need to get started on, as I have to have it finished before the ladies arrive here in Luxembourg on the 7th. of April.
I hope this gives you a little insight dear. This journey is for YOU. Let your h get on with his crisis. Leave him to sort himself out. This is the time for you to reevaluate your PERSONAL LIFE. This journey is so HEALING. Once you have healed then you will be in the right frame of mind to make wise decisions and choices, that will CHANGE your life completely.
Don't be afraid. Don't be in a rush. Just let it happen.
hugs Stayed...
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Hi stayed what you said in your post is the exact thing ive been thinking about for the past few days, i too did so much for my h, believeing it would free him up to spend more time with us, it probably did the opposite and made him feel inadequate as such cos i was too MISS INDEPENDANT, i believe i played my part in h's MLC affair as i wasnt needy however o/w is and was so he felt like he had some purpose when with her, they both fed off the ego building.......I know o/w is just a symptom and at the minute he feels like her knight in shining armour cos she needs him and although i didnt see it back then i didnt the difference was i wanted him.....so im goner complete my journey and wherever that takes me i dont know but it as to be a better place than i was in at BD.....People become too comfortable in life and dont like change but in order to become better people change as to take place so im goner embrace it and not work against it ....as this only lengthens the journey ......Thanks for your post it validated exactly what ive been thinking about xxxxxxxx
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it probably did the opposite and made him feel inadequate as such cos i was too MISS INDEPENDANT, i believe i played my part in h's MLC affair as i wasn't needy however o/w is and was so he felt like he had some purpose when with her, they both fed off the ego building.......
In all honestly, With Gods Help I doubt this played much of a role in your h's MLC. I actually think it probably just gave him more time to "find" another person to carry on with.
My point was actually more about how it allowed my h to take me for GRANTED... even contributed to loss of respect, if I was going to do all these EXTRA chores, then fill your boots "stupid". For example, he will leave his trousers draped over the back of the couch, as he tends to strip out of his dress cloths when he comes home from work. At one time he would have left it there, sometimes getting quite annoyed that I had not picked them up and put them away. Now, I leave them. Usually in a couple of days, he will notice and has often said... "I'm so sorry honey, I would never have done that at the OW's house, that is very disrespectful of me"! He will scoop them up and take them to where they belong. In the old days... it would never have even occurred to him to do such a thing. Heck I was his b*tch as far as he was concerned. Now he totally recognizes I am not his "slave".
There are so many things these days that he does. He is the one who often clears the table, something he NEVER would have even considered doing in the bad old days. Quite beneath him, I think.
There are many things he has apologized for sweetie. Things he took for granted, now he can see how time consuming and boring they were for me to do. Plus, why should I do these thing??? He sees that now. He never appreciated how time consuming caring for children was. He has apologized a billion times for his attitude about that. At the time he honestly felt, I was just so LUCKY to be able to stay home and raise our children. He totally FORGOT that I often went to work for three, 12 hour shifts, when he got home from work, without having slept. Which meant I would have been up for longer then 24hours when my shift ended... plus still had to get home from place of work.
There was a total loss of appreciation for my contribution to the family as a whole. I was given no respect, appreciation or consideration for my efforts. Quite honestly, it should have been me who had the MLC.
hugs Stayed...
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Wow, it's incredible how all of our sitchs are so similar. I too feel I was taken advantage of and unappreciated. I have always worked full time and was always able to manage to be a attentive partner and parent. My Ds and I have talked about how my H had basically given up on life in the past few years. He never could get up the energy to do anything. Our yard is a mess and left unattended. Shameful really, I'm just glad we live in the boonies as no one really notices.
We definitely teach people how to treat us. I no longer want to be treated as an undervalued woman. I work hard and deserve respect and appreciation. Maybe one day he will wake up and see what I did for him and for our family. But then again maybe he won't only time will tell.
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Yep Justkeepmoving... it's up to him! Time will tell. You have to wonder though, where will you be, if and when that happens?
hugs Stayed
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hi stayed yes i understand and i also know h took me for granted, hes admitted that many times however the words come easy from him but im no longer looking for words its actions that interest me now..............
Your post on trusting's thread made me cry it was beautiful you have such a great way with words, its comforting to know that there are some h's out there that really do show remorse for what theyve done, youve bothed worked so hard to get where you are i hope your both proud of yourselfs for finally having the marriage you both deserve and both sharing your journey giving hope and advice to those whom come here in order to help themselves and try make sense of what the HELL happened........Thankyou so so so muchhhhhhhhh
xxxxxxx
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With Gods Help!
We are both very aware of how fortunate we are! When you think of all the possibilities of how these sorts of situations can turn out, it is hard not to feel blessed.
Quite often when I respond to threads, you people get a twofour, as I often read comments and questions directly from the threads. Funny, he wouldn't dream of coming in here and actually responding personally but whenever I have asked him about ANYTHING that an MLC goes through, he willingly tells me, if he knows.
Actual comments etc. he often doesn't recall the exact words but there are not too darn many of the actual situations that he does not remember. With shame mind you, and groans often when asked to recall them, but he surely does remember them.
I sometimes am confused when it is said that an MLCer does not remember. It has been my experience, that they do not want to remember. I get far more honest answers from husband now, then I did when we first reconciled, or even a year ago.
My h truly understands the need for us to know. He has watched it heal me. He has watched how working with you people has helped me to understand better what actually happend to us during our trial. At first he feared this would simply open up old wounds... but he has seen that in fact, it heals wounds when it is better understood.
hugs Stayed
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Stayed, I have read this with a lot of interest.
I would like that somebody of you analysed my situation
H. lives with OW and runs his restaurant with OW. As we are still married we have a mutual responsibility for the business. I continued doing the bookkeeping because no one else can handle it (or he needs to pay a bookkeeper which he probably can't afford) + by doing this bookkeeping I could see if finances were OK and that he would not drag me into something worse. So I decided that as long as there is no official D I would handle the bookkeeping. (We went to see a notary who will draw up an act and normal process to follow is D proceedings)
I read about detaching and letting go and various types of contact. I went very dark in my contact. No contact is almost impossible because of finances and our S17.
But our contact is very friendly, I learned not to ask questions anymore.
I am afraid now that be being so friendly is not “letting go” enough. He is used to it that I behave like this. We mean each other no harm despite everything that happens now. He will not do anything that deliberately hurts me (besides having an affair LOL). But he started proceedings so for him this is not having an affair anymore, the whole process takes a couple of months, so in his mind this is a transition period. If this is no longer betrayal, he does not need to feel guilty?!
Sometimes he contacts me by phone, email or text and I respond in a friendly way and without pressure. I sometimes wait a few hours before I reply, but I always do.
If something about the business needs to be done that I usually did, he simply forwards I to me. He is not even thinking I will not take care of it.
I am afraid that being “friendly” and “making no fuss” is enabling him to stay in his “movie” world.
Further, since he is not living with me anymore, it is almost impossible for him to notice if I live my own life. I can go out every day without him noticing. So what is the difference, staying home being sad or go out and do fun things, he will not notice!
I know the difference will be for me; I will start feeling better about myself
But still how will H notice
Do I need to stop doing these bookkeeping for him. Do I ask to be paid
For it and turn this in a business agreement?
I am not sure what else I can don accept for no contact at all, and this is not possible
X
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Dear Stayed, reading your post was like reliving my life. Once he was promoted to plant manager, perhaps 1998 or so, things changed. I was also working full time but he worked longer hours, had more travel and evenings out for work. I took care of most of the stuff (we did get a cleaning service in) and he was good actually about helping out when he was home...but the routine paying bills, taking our daughter to school, helping with her homework, any appointments, most of her activities, taking care of other family stuff, buying gifts, sending cards, groceries, making food...I used to wonder somehow...when did I ever agree to all this?
In the first 20 years of marriage, things were much more evenly distributed.
And of course I moved, each time he was promoted, giving up my job, my friends, my family and then ultimately leaving our daughter behind.
I was so proud of him, happy and feeling so fortunate to have the lifestyle that we did..but I missed him. I wasn't really important..he did a great job of spoiling me in sweet ways..I truly thought we enjoyed the things that we did together and that he just didn't have much time..other than for work.
I did pursue other interests..never felt like I couldn't do things that I enjoyed..he was always supportive of things that I would go out and do.
Perhaps this is why I am having so much trouble adjusting to being alone...he was such a huge part of my life...people would ask me why I would move whenever he wanted to have that next "experience" and I just felt, I'm his wife..as a nurse I can never make the money that he did and so early on, I choose to follow him...after all..I could always get a job as a nurse.
He never really understood how difficult it was for me..used to tell me what wonderful experiences we had and how I had benefited from each move.
I think he was right when he said his unhappiness went back to 2003 when we left Canada..because I had to leave our daughter behind and I was not a happy camper. I was brought up with family Sunday dinners..the first year I was not with her for Mother's day killed me and I vowed that would never happen again.
He did not understand..thought our daughter was an "adult" and was fine on her own...he is a very selfish person....he was so close to his mom and dad that I don't get how very little he cares about having time with his daughter.
I was duped!
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I think he was right when he said his unhappiness went back to 2003 when we left Canada..because I had to leave our daughter behind and I was not a happy camper. I was brought up with family Sunday dinners..the first year I was not with her for Mother's day killed me and I vowed that would never happen again.
Goodness Xyzcf, no wonder we have an affinity.... we lived parallel lives! hehehe. I seriously considered not moving here to Luxembourg... as the idea of leaving my children behind, just seemed SO WRONG! I had spend far more time with my kids then I ever had my husband.... I was scared. As it turned out, I had reason to be, within 3 years, he was shacked up with OW. I was home caring for sick/dying mother... :o ... crazy life... we have lived.
Your h's words sound identical to my h's word... :o wow, we were just "old fashioned" wives hun. We thought our duty was to our husbands. What can I say.... :(
hugs... Stayed...
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Thanks For Sharing!!!
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What made it even worse for me was our move to Hong Kong where I was really unhappy and that interfered with his grandiose plans. My mom was also very ill and passed away last Nov. The climate was not agreeable, the pollution and the throngs of people drove me crazy and he worked so much and was tired the rest of the time.
But what he didn't get was the emotional connection for me with my Dad having been a prisoner of war in Hong Kong...as I explored the battlefields, the bunkers, the Canadian gravesite and worked at a soup kitchen on the exact spot where my father was interned..I wrote something that was published in their newsletter just before I returned to Canada for a wedding, just before BD and I had him read it and he looked at me and said..you really hate it here don't you? And I tried to explain...that I was looking at it from my eyes..how difficult it was for me to adjust with all the wealth that we had..oh how hard it must have been for my dad.
I think that article made him so mad because he wanted to stay and live the life of being an "emperor" and he knew that I would stay but that I truly did not want to.
I couldn't change what happened..and a marriage has to take into consideration ... after all these years was I not allowed to feel something and want a life that I could accept ...living in Colorado was hard enough being away from our daughter and family..what gave him the right to have all the candy?
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I couldn't change what happened..and a marriage has to take into consideration ... after all these years was I not allowed to feel something and want a life that I could accept ...living in Colorado was hard enough being away from our daughter and family..what gave him the right to have all the candy?
No right at all Xyzcf... no right why he should have all the candy. You see that would have been the same attitude my OLD HUSBAND would have taken. Somehow, it would have been like I was RUINING everything. Everything had become about HIM... what he wanted, what he needed... how good he was... lalala... I could hardly stand him opening his mouth. I honestly, wanted to jam my foot down it.
You know honey, I can't believe I lived with it as long as I did. That's why in so many ways, I am glad our marriage BLEW UP. I think if it had remained as it was, I would have died hating him.
hugs Stayed...
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I do think about the "blowing up" part. About 9 months after BD -- this time of year, actually, when we first started having some honest conversations (yes, this is a cycle....) I even said that perhaps this HAD to happen. He visibly relaxed then, we started talking more. (not going into the next bit right now...)
This discussion also reminded me about how I was feeling in the run up to BD.... I didn't move around for my H the way you, stayed and xyzcf, did, but I did uproot my whole life to come here to marry him, and I gave up my career to look after the children, deal with all the special needs, etc. I remember saying that just because I did all that gladly didn't mean that it wasn't hard.
I also remember saying, literally a week or two before BD, that I just wanted back some of the support that I had been giving all this time.
But of course it was me just silently doing it all (OK, maybe not totally silently all the time), expecting to be appreciated, expecting that it would just magically come back to me when I needed it. Somewhere along the line I had forgotten how to negotiate for what I needed.
I've been married 20 years now, so it's not quite the same timeline as the two of you -- but the principle is the same. There was a lot of give and take for a long time, then it gradually became all one-sided..... and I developed resentments as well.
Tuesday when we talked I reminded him that the 'not talking' was what got us into this mess, (he agreed) and that it couldn't continue.
It does seem that at this time of year we hit a spell of 'talking honestly'; it's just the follow-up which so far has suffered. I think this year may be different because my expectations really are nil now. Every time before I was doing it with the expectation that "this time he'll turn back", or something; this time I don't think that at all. I'm seeing more clearly. I hope to continue to have this inner peace.
Although, I do find that sometimes even on this forum I write what I think will be the "right thing".... funny, that. It does all make me think.
Gotta run...
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Ahhhhhhhhh T&L you make me smile... (((((((hugs)))))))
It's just one big "crap shoot"! The truth is honey, nobody knows what will work or won't work. People just go crazy. Then they simply don't know how to go back. They are more afraid of facing the music then they are of going forward, repeating the same mistakes over and over and over.
I think the new you, is obvious. You may be saying a bit of what you think you should be saying but I actually do get the feeling that you have finally accepted. Probably the most you SHOULD hope for, is somehow helping to steer him towards a greater awareness of his children. He has actually been a pretty good, at least compared to most who walk out on their families.
That being said, he still leaves a lot up to you. He takes liberties in allowing himself to ENJOY a single life, while truly depriving you of the same opportunity. Oh, I know, you have no wish to date etc., which is a damn good thing because if both of you were behaving like you were "single" those children of yours would be in a very bad way by now.
Whatever results come out of your latest talk, I hope it allows you the freedom to speak your mind, when you feel you must. Certainly, not about what he is doing with his life, but when it comes to the children and him being a father, instead of a "great uncle", a very special uncle, then you have to open up and let him have it.
If he doesn't like it and can't see where you are coming from, then he will always only be a special uncle to his own children. He will have to live with it. As you have certainly done your best to keep your family together. Nobody could do more.
hugs... Stayed
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XYZCF, your life could be mine here, the way you put it, the resemblance is sometimes frightening
I did everything and more but I got spoiled as well in a very sweet way. These are your words but they apply to my life as well.
Also in my case due to H’s restaurant, the time left was very limited.
We had 1 day off together. Apart from the restaurant I still kept my job (4 days/week). All the other days were spent on the restaurant +cleaning restaurant+ bookkeeping & family stuff
My mother took care of the cleaning of our home and the laundry.
The last months before BD I to felt that there wasn't much else in life than work. Result was that our day off was an obligation to have quality time and the result was
It was more a disappointment. I did not get out of that day what I wanted.
Also in my case H. could not see how difficult all these practical things were.
They went on and on without seeing the end of it. He did not even see them (ADHD)
He really did not understand. He slept out while I was on my 1 day off (H had 2 days off) busy with groceries etc.
The ADHD issue is another reason why I did so much jobs myself.
I know now that If I had to start all over again I would organize this restaurant better; meaning I would hire third parties do help out in order to NOT do it all myself.
Another thing that I immediately stopped is the help of my parents. This was meant well but was to much interference.
I am not sure whether this is coincidence or not, but I recognize some common factors in all of our LBS stories
We are fixers
We are very independent
We take care of the household stuff on our own (with or without appreciation of H)
We set our selves aside for the sake of our H and family, but we were proud of them
Typically I guess, OW in my case is totally dependant; emotionally & financially.
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I am not sure whether this is coincidence or not, but I recognize some common factors in all of our LBS stories
We are fixers
We are very independent
We take care of the household stuff on our own (with or without appreciation of H)
We set our selves aside for the sake of our H and family, but we were proud of them
That is so apparent, isn't it. I think the strangest part is OUR pride in our spouses. We seem to hand it over to them, as though they were the ones that were holding up our families.
I must confess, I have many girlfriends whose spouses do so much. Around the house, with the children, community participation ie, coaching hockey, baseball, whatever. Plus work. I have friends who were home all day and their husbands come home, clean the house, take the children to the park... and then cooked supper. AND my friends moan and groan about their spouse all the time!
I always was STUNNED! Would sit there with my mouth open, wondering what the hell I did wrong? :( :o
Yet, here we all have experienced rejection, replacement in most cases and intense dislike from our spouse.... duh :-\ wth?????
hugs... Stayed...
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I am not sure whether this is coincidence or not, but I recognize some common factors in all of our LBS stories
We are fixers
We are very independent
We take care of the household stuff on our own (with or without appreciation of H)
We set our selves aside for the sake of our H and family, but we were proud of them
That is so apparent, isn't it. I think the strangest part is OUR pride in our spouses. We seem to hand it over to them, as though they were the ones that were holding up our families.
This could be me too!!!! Yes, I also built up a lot of resentment to my H for not participating, supporting or even noticing what I did.
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How could we not Mermaid? Yet, we still felt PRIDE for our spouses.... we are an odd group eh?
hugs Stayed...
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Just wanted to add my views on the LBS (well on this site) anyway ..
I feel we are not only - to quote We are fixers, very independent
We take care of the household stuff on our own (with or without appreciation of H)
We set our selves aside for the sake of our H and family, but we were proud of them
But we have structured mindsets that are able to be flexible and see the big picture, a MLC person can't do this and I think they struggled as a person before MLC with this ability.
So our skills at juggling putting pieces together to form a whole and seeing the bigger picture infuriates them. As they can't do this !!!!!!!!
They fail when they try and they can't understand our ability so pretend to not appreciate these skills
No one does do they ? appreciate skills that they don't have ? and these are inherent and cannot be learnt so the wives that have the 'good life' example their H that run around after them are either fooling their H 's or are incapable of multi tasking and thinking - my guess is the latter because if you are a flexible mindset person you abhor fixed mindsets they irritate you as they wont try and think outside there tiny box ... so that is why I think we are all where we are today ..... the MLC journey I believe helps the man/women grow up and change how they think so more open, thoughtful and honest - the journey is all about them because they are the problem and its so HUGE they do need to concentrate ton themselves
Just a thought .............. B xx
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That's an interesting observation Bewildered. I think our part of the journey, is where we actually analyze this innate skill of ours and see it for what it really is. Which enables us to let go. Allows us to get on with our lives and regain our confidence.
If our spouses manage to complete their journey, learning how to appreciate the talents of their spouses and indeed capitalize on them without resentment and jealousy, then a wonderful relationship can be formed. With a strong foundation based on mutual respect, honest and admiration.
Hugs Stayed...
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My H has recently commented on my new job. I am a carer in the community. He said to me that I should give it a few months then look for something better suited to my skills. I am happy with what I do for now. He said I had always been a good organiser, so a job based around that would be good.
I suppose I should take that as a complement. After all he had no problems letting me organise his life and family for 20years, so I would think I am pretty good at it by now.
I too was always very supportive of H, and was/still am proud of what he has achieved. With the exception of MLC of course.
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Glimmer
a good sign he recognises a skill of yours but it goes deeper to me .. its admiring it and seeing it as something he can be proud of as it may be some thing he cant do ?
He also IMO - hate to say this but he belittled you by not saying that your current job impresses him - I thinkthis job and you doing it is admirable/difficult /etc
But oh no he cant say this ..... He still IMO wants to control your thoughts about your life, what you do , him as the God of What is good for you etc
Live your life Do what makes you happy and when he sees he has no control he will notice .. agree with him and do what he wants .. why should he not think 'same as'
again k=just my opinion X
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I must say I agree with Bewildered about this. What he should have said, was "good for you glimmer... you are amazing". Instead, he said, this job was beneath you, you could do SO MUCH MORE... sounded like a compliment, but was intended to make you feel dissatisfied... jerk.
You could do anything you wanted to do Glimmer. If this job is making you feel good about yourself, do not let him take your pride from having found it... ALL BY YOURSELF.
Bewildered is right, he is trying to control from afar... don't let him honey.
hugs Stayed...
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THANKS STAYED
For the agreement - Glimmer say to him I thought of what you said and thsi job is givng me so much .. an insight into community issues and how importatn ths work is ..think I might take it furthure maybe a councillor or something political ?? as I really think as you said I have such excellent organiating skills and I am always being told that i a, a calm and caring person - what do you think??? I could maybe change peoples lifes??
watch the smoke come out of his ears ..... ;D ;D ;D
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Thanks for your kind comments.
I am proud of what I do, it is sometimes difficult and not the type of work everyone would be suited to. I felt deflated as well over his comments and the impression that this type of work is beneath me. Maybe he feels it is not in keeping with his own image, and the circles he moves in now. Then again if he doesn't see a future for us together, then what difference does it make to him anyway.
I agree he is a jerk.
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((((((((((((big hug Glimmer))))))))))))))), I for one am PROUD of you.... you are an incredible ROLE model.
As always, your h has his own ISSUES to sort out. Let him think whatever he likes....
hugs Stayed
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Hi,
I have a question for Stayed's H.
Reading this letter was a revelation
I am just wondering. My H. told me few days ago that he knows he ruined his future.
As H is feeling OK where he is right now (so it seems), I am just wondering whether he has given up? H Sees no way back and will make the best of his new life?
Did you ever feel the same way?
TX
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As H is feeling OK where he is right now (so it seems), I am just wondering whether he has given up? H Sees no way back and will make the best of his new life?
Did you ever feel the same way?
Husband is not here at the moment, but we have discussed this in depth. Yes, he felt there was no way back. Especially, after his final "debacle"! He considered that a MISSED opportunity and felt he had done SO MUCH DAMAGE, there was just no way we could overcome the DAMGE done.
After his final "mess", he completely resigned himself to a life with OW. Felt it was all he had left. Plus, OW ended her trip at home (Texas) and came rushing back to Luxembourg, in an attempt to talk him out of leaving her and returning to me. He felt her actions showed him "true love", beyond the call of duty $hit, so felt he OWED it to her, to stay. He felt NOBODY had ever put him so much BEFORE themselves, like that action did... arghhhhhhhhhhhh :o , the minds of an MLCer are very rattled!
hugs Stayed...
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Hi Stayed,
Just wondering what made your husband change his mind at that point?
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I suspect that is what will happen with my husband... he has been riding the fence and not letting go of OW all the way and I've had enough. I have emotionally divorced him, just like he did me (except not really on my part) and told him he has used up all of his chances.... that he had EVERY chance in the world... that I've held the door open for him until the hinges fell off.... that I was tired of hearing his excuses and justifications.... that every time I present him with the TRUTH that OW is still in the background, not matter how much or how little, he tells me "I can get rid of her... I know what I have to do". Well, how many years am I supposed to give him to get rid of her? I'm done. He is panicked and feeling sorry for himself. He will blame me for not "giving us a chance" yada, yada, but I KNOW THE TRUTH!!
I also know that he may latch onto OW again, even though he says it's not what he wants.... he doesn't have anywhere else to go and I pointed out that he HAD a home, but because he continues to cheat on me, he's OUT.... HIS CHOICE and NOT MY PROBLEM! I also know that until he is ready to get off of his pity POTTY and quit blaming ME and everyone else for his crap life, that I don't want him back. He is full of resentment and wallowing in fear and weakness. As long as he is WEAK, he will fall in every way.... he'll just continue on with his behaviors that, incidentally, I've seen THROUGHOUT our marriage! His "issues" have taken over his life... he is one dimensional now. The BAD outweighs the good at this point.
Do not FEAR that your husband will feel there is no way back... he knows how to get there. You have shown him over and over....
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Just wondering what made your husband change his mind at that point?
Hi Rememberer, long time no see, wondered where you went!
I think LettingGo answered that question pretty well.
Do not FEAR that your husband will feel there is no way back... he knows how to get there. You have shown him over and over....
I personally think the piddling around with, "I've done so much damage it can not be repaired" is just more MLC nonsense... I think LettingGo hit the nail on the head directly. I think they dilly dally about UNTIL they realize we truly are DONE... that we have picked up our toys and taken them home. That we are not going to play with them any more... at least... NOT BY THEIR RULES!
HUGS Stayed
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I think this is where I fall short. W is such a clinging boomerang that if I'm not on my Yahoo chat
every weekday she will email or call to see why.
Stops at the house everyday. Calls everyday. Makes if tough to distance.
I'm guilty of being on a short tether and I know I have to fix it.
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Hi stayed,
I love your espression
That we are not going to play with them any more... at least... NOT BY THEIR RULES!
:D
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Seriously Rebel, why would she change, she has you eating her out of her hand. Probably never had such UNDIVIDED attention from you... I'd say, that's a big, MISSION ACCOMPLISHED!
We all have our limits!
hugs Stayed
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This really helps so much to see that there are so many similarities between our situations. (Not that I'm glad we are in them for one minute!).
Like Stayed and Eternity, I ended up doing pretty much everything - otherwise it wouldn't have got done. My partner and I were both working in pretty much the same job but he did very little apart from the driving. This was always his trump card as I hate driving. However, he'd have had to get to and from work anyway so he might as well have given me a lift!
Around the time of BD, my mother was very ill and I was really worried about her. She is very elderly and disabled due to a stroke but is still managing to stay in her own home. I go in to see her every day as she lives near my work and my partner used to come for lunch as well. Latterly, when she was really unwell, I was having to stay over and I really just needed his support. I had looked after him through a number of illnesses in recent years and I felt it was time for a bit of support back. What I got was BD!
As Eternity says, the OW is both financially and emotionally dependent. (Apparently she is even worse at admin than he is, which is saying something!)
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Thanks Stayed,
Husband is not here at the moment, but we have discussed this in depth. Yes, he felt there was no way back. Especially, after his final "debacle"! He considered that a MISSED opportunity and felt he had done SO MUCH DAMAGE, there was just no way we could overcome the DAMGE done.
After his final "mess", he completely resigned himself to a life with OW. Felt it was all he had left. Plus, OW ended her trip at home (Texas) and came rushing back to Luxembourg, in an attempt to talk him out of leaving her and returning to me. He felt her actions showed him "true love", beyond the call of duty $hit, so felt he OWED it to her, to stay. He felt NOBODY had ever put him so much BEFORE themselves, like that action did... arghhhhhhhhhhhh :o , the minds of an MLCer are very rattled!
I feel my H is in the same place, he has made a comment or two to his mom in the past the last time he returned he had told his mom that he feels then that he had done to much damage to get back what we had. Now that was before he ran for the last time he really messed up that time, Saying all he did to come back and I do know he did mean it at the moment but doesn't make it any easier and my kids just do not understand this. They are just done totally with their Dad. The last time I was the one who put everything he owns on the porch and moved all my stuff into the big closet that he had. I know that made a big statement to him among some other things, then I found this website which has changed a lot for me.
I do know that until he is ready he will do what he needs to, to get back what he wants the most in life which is his family.
For now life is for me and my kids!!!!
Just Pray!
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That's right Smitty, he has to fix himself, if he wants you all back. You and the kids must get on with your life. Live it "as if" he might never return.
This is your opportunity to truly evaluate what you had, what you want, and where you want to be. If your h does return, it will be a lot different then the other times, as now he will have to change in order to fit in.
Once we discover our individuality, we don't ever give it away again. Unfortunately, the old marriage simply will not be good enough anymore, if he had not done what he did, you most likely would never have bothered to change anything. Like most of us, you probably had thought, that that's how marriage became. Now you know differently.
Never settle for less then what you deserve. That does not mean you can not and will not compromise, there are always compromises... but there will be definite limits that will be very much focused on YOUR needs.
I guess, the one thing that most people don't want to talk about in here, GETTING BACK THE OLD spouse, just wasn't good enough for me anymore. If he could not effect the changes within himself, like I had within myself, then I was not afraid to walk away.
I understand that most people's objective is to save their marriage, but for me, just being MARRIED was not going to be enough. I had not LIKED the man who had cheated on me and betrayed everything I believed in. I did not like that man who had no honour and could not RESIST the allure of a raunchy experience.
I wanted a honorable, reliable COMPANION, someone who cared as much about my needs as I did about his. I don't like the word NEED... it seems like a selfish, self centered word, but there is no getting away from it, we all have NEEDS and EXPECTATIONS.
If my h could not respect, honour and appreciate ALL of me, as I am, then I simply did not want him. He has lived up to my expectations and more since his return, but it didn't happen immediately.
I am ever vigilant against any sign/s of "slippage", as I will not have any part of the man he was, during his crisis.
hugs Stayed...
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Stayed,
That is how I feel and how I am thinking about this whole thing, I thought maybe there was something wrong with me possibly with my thinking
I did have a great marriage my husband never (until now) disrespected me never even raised his voice to me in 23y We confided in eachother always and liked to b together, but slowly he started pulling away from all of us has his job changed and become so stressful something happened with his boss and him which threw him into a tail spin and down ward spiral.
Looking at it through my eyes now I see the things that need to change I did everything in this family pay all the bills solely take care of the kids so he could focus on his job and well I helped get him where he is today. But not that, that matters bc really Look where I am now!
He needed to b a part of our family and put God and family above his job. He has made statements now that he did push us away and put his job above all else.
I am well aware he will never b the same but neither will I and I am looking at the positive not the negative in this journey, yeah it's a horrible thing to go through but my path has been paved by the Lord and in the end my marriage and family will b better than ever.
Living for me now see where it leads.
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Hi Stayed!
firstly, i'm SUPER JEALOUS that you all are going to be partying in lux - i hope you have a blast!
i would like to pick your brain about not so fun stuff, if'n you don't mind :)
for the first time this past weekend, my husband said that he would like to work on our marriage if i was still interested. there is an OW - as far as I know, and im pretty convinced, he hasn't told her this yet. i know that this will likely happen several times over the next long while, the back and forth between us while he decides if immediate "happiness" outweighs a lifetime of real happiness that will take time and effort to get. ::)
i really want to let him know that i am the "soft place to land" but i don't want to be a doormat about it either. while he is still in any way involved with her, he will not have the magic that is me, that's for sure - but what should i be doing to "pave the way" in the meantime? it's so very obvious that i in no way pursue him. he mentioned after telling me he was willing to work things out that i could message him because he really looks forward to getting them from me. i dunno, i'm so suspicious of everything right now...i wonder if at times he is setting me up in some way, pitting me against her in his sick little fantasy life: oh look...a message from my wife - so, ow, what are you going to do to outshine her, huh?
i haven't been at this for very long AT ALL - initial BD was in July 2010 when he told me he was leaving "to be by himself and work things out for himself" and then he left in August. BD#2 - OW - was just last weekend, Mar 13. This last little conversation where he stated he wanted to work things out was just this past Saturday, a week after BD#2, supermoon, and his and OW's shared birthday. i'm not sure how she'll react when and IF he tells her that he's going to work on his marriage.
for the first time in awhile, i feel so off-centre and i don't know how to proceed. my game plan is to continue with how i've been: no r talks, no questions, only responding to what he says, pleasant, kind, but distant. i feel as though i now need to introduce some affection or something because of comments he made very recently. i asked him during BD#2 why all the hugs, kisses, when he comes over and why the coffees and pastries in the a.m. when he comes to be with our son so i can leave for work (a little aside on this one: just before we started dating, while we were "courting", he would meet me every morning before work with a heated, buttered mini carrot loaf...this started to remind me of that time), and he said he did those things to see if i still had feelings for him - just ask, dumba$$! however, having stated that, a lot of this stuff started AFTER he went physical with her....so i'm guessing guilt. he still denies feelings for me but also states that he doesn't see his "relationship" with ow going anywhere either - again, can't believe a word he says cause....well cause he's an mlc dumba$$.
any bit of insight, info would be so very much appreciated.
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while he is still in any way involved with her, he will not have the magic that is me, that's for sure
I know this question wasn't for me to answer but I think you said this so well yourself in answer to his wondering if you will consider rec. and paving the way.
He may really be asking how much damage has been done at this point. IDK.
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Jumping in here.... DCD, I'm sorry to tell you it is way too soon for your husband to give up OW. I think his feelings are sincere, but the compulsion to run and the addiction to cover up his pain with OW bandaid will outweigh his hearts desire for now.
I would not put ANY stock into his proposed desire to try and work things out with you... he knows, deep down, that is what he should do. Part of it might be paying lip service to you to "let you down easy" and also to be able to claim "he tried, but it didn't work". Know that he will claim this, even if the two of you NEVER discuss your R again, LOL!!
I would just ignore it, because he will change on a dime and forget he ever said it anyway. It kinda doesn't matter what you say or do during this part of his MLC because his focus will be on OW for some time and he won't remember stupid things he said to you. I wish I could give you more than a cyber hug, because you have a mountain to climb ahead of you... but rest assured, there are others who've climbed it or are climbing it ahead of you and we will lead the way!
If you can, and if your husband cooperates, LOL!! go dark or dim on him.... this is for YOU to break free from HIM and OW. They need to be left alone to fester like a nasty wound... and they will, and will do it sooner if you bow out of the picture. Bowing out is NOT handing him over, by the way... in fact, bowing out MAY be the reason he doesn't file for divorce.... and then let the games with OW begin, hahaha!! The best way to fight this is by NOT RESISTING.... 8)
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Different coloured days, asked:
but what should i be doing to "pave the way" in the meantime?
Honestly honey.... continue to do what you are doing. Stay centered and focused on yourself. Ignore his advances, when he REALLY wants to work on the marriage, you will know. He won't be "denying" any feelings he has for you.
The best thing you can do to pave the way, my dear, for HIM and for yourself, is to become happy, healthy and strong. To know in your own MIND that you are able to live quite happily with or without him.
Don't do what I did and rush back too soon. Let both of you heal. Let both of you take your journey, learn and GROW. Becoming strong and confident within yourself. Happy living on your own, content with who YOU are.
That is the path to true reconciliation. If he wants to work on the marriage after you have completed your journey... then fly at it. Until that time, REMEMBER... HE DID THIS... not you! This is HIS crisis, which HE has forced on you. This situation has forced you into a crisis of your own, so now, you owe it to yourself, to figure out who the h*ll you are and who you want to be. What YOU want for yourself in the future.
Seeing has he has started this, you might as well maximize the benefits of the situation, that will best suit yourself. Don't be afraid, the more you UNDERSTAND about yourself, the easier the business of reconciliation will be, IF THE OPPORTUNITY arises.
LET HIM PURSUE.... sit back, pop a huge bowl of popcorn and watch the show. It's really something.
hugs girl... Stayed...
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thank you, LGO, LG, and stayed for your responses.
LGO posted:
"He may really be asking how much damage has been done at this point. IDK. "
he said as much when we had our talk at BD#2...that he didn't think i would be able to get past the damage he has done.
LG posted:
"They need to be left alone to fester like a nasty wound... and they will, and will do it sooner if you bow out of the picture. Bowing out is NOT handing him over, by the way... in fact, bowing out MAY be the reason he doesn't file for divorce.... and then let the games with OW begin, hahaha!! The best way to fight this is by NOT RESISTING.... "
i think what you say right there about bowing out is not handing him over is the part that has me anxious - i very much want them to fester, i want her to nag him and put demands and pressure on him. i just don't want her touching him and comforting him, and available to him ;D - not gonna lie about that - and i really hope that while she's feeling the "love", she's also feeling a whole lot of doubt, insecurity, and the need to control and nag. i know this is what needs to happen - i'm just not very happy about it :-\
stayed posted:
Don't do what I did and rush back too soon. Let both of you heal. Let both of you take your journey, learn and GROW. Becoming strong and confident within yourself. Happy living on your own, content with who YOU are.
geez, stayed - this is a hard one...i hear what you're saying, i know what you're saying to be true and right. when i heard him say he wanted to try, my heart soared but my head yelled "no no no no...not yet - TOO SOON" and i was all "shut up head!" but i know now is nowhere near the time - we're not ready...he's been so distant from me, all the while showing affection, but noncommittal, but affectionate again...i've got motion sickness - i need to stay off his ride.
"This situation has forced you into a crisis of your own, so now, you owe it to yourself, to figure out who the h*ll you are and who you want to be. What YOU want for yourself in the future."
and this is the other point that has me anxious - what do i want...this changes day to day. i know who i want to be...working on figuring out who i am. but what do i want? knowing this for certain would help me set and attain goals for myself. i wish i knew :-\ but now i have the time to figure it out.
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I totally understand about OW.... nothing about that situation to like.. :'(
If you can just ignore that he ever even said he wanted to try, you'd be doing yourself a favor. He's NOT going to try, so it's a moot point. Just go about your business and expect to hear him claim "he tried but it didn't work". I STILL hear that from my husband, but now we are far enough along that he accepts me arguing with him and telling him that having OW in the picture is NOT trying.... You're not there yet.... don't bother contradicting your husband... just validate and let his stupid words hang in the air as he tries to convince himself he's a good guy.
You have a long ways to go... just let it be. ((hugs))
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Bumping this up.
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Oh to heck with validating.... JUST SAY NOTHING! Let it hang there int he air. Smile and nod.
Sorry, but I just could not bring myself to VALIDATE his nonsense.... and I still can't. I wasn't denying his feelings but I sure wasn't going to validate them, he didn't validate any of mine... heck, he didn't give a TINKER about my feelings. I'm just not that nice. Nor did I want him back that badly.
You might have noticed the word "validate" really gets up my nose... sorry again, but I just could not let it pass one more time. Just give them the same STUPID look they give you, when you speak!
hugs Stayed
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Stayed - we must be cut from the same cloth, I find validating very very hard. I am better at mirroring, but I always have to be careful that my mirroring doesn't turn to mocking (hehehe), which a couple of times it has - once when he was on the phone to OW who was fretting cos he'd been at my place "too long" getting his belongings. I smirked (and there was also some eye-rolling I'm afraid!) all the way through his (very pathetic) attempts to placate her!
For me, just saying nothing and staying reasonable but business like is about the best I can do. Fortunately we are more or less NC so I don't have to worry about it anyway!
Thanks to your H for the letter, I read it for the first time today. It is very brave of him to post it on here, but it is interesting to see his reflections on how MLC felt to him.
Take care, Stayed - I always check out your responses cos I like the way you keep it real ;-)
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Omg. that story you told about OW calling when your h was picking up some things at the house. I had EXACTLY the same situation. I wasn't nearly as subtle as you... I outright LAUGHED...in his face... even sent a few comments to her... about how good the sex had been... but I was sending him back now!
I didn't do much to help myself... tbh. That's the problem I guess with ANGER... and having no wish to control it... it sort of has a mind of its own!
I always read your comments too Stand... I see so much growth and maturity every passing day.... YOUR H IS A FOOL! Poor MLC b*stard!
hugs Stayed...
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I just wanted to add StandandDeliver, your growth and maturity makes me sad too, you just SEEM way too young, to be going through this.
hugs... Stayed...
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Stayed,
I'm with you on this one. Validate my H's feelings, are you kidding me ? He could give a rats a** about how I feel and how he has devasted my life. It's been 9 months since my H ran away from home and nothing has changed, except for me. Even though this has been the most difficult time of my life thus far it has in many ways been a blessing. I've learned to be independent and know that I can live without him. I've tried to do what's right for my Ds and myself only. The damage he has done to his R with his Ds is inmeasurable but I know now that it's all on him. For now my H has chosen not to look back on his "old" life which unfortunately includes his girls. I guess that's why I just can't and won't validate any of his feelings right now. You're right Stayed poor MLC bastards !!
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Can I chime in here?
I've come to think the word "validation" in any of it's forms is perhaps the most offensive and repugnant term in the world....LOL!
First off, it's the term H has used to describe what he needed from other women in terms of his attractiveness. He needed "validation" that he is still sexy.
BLAH! PUKE! BLEK! SICK!
Secondly, my validation of him was "meaningless" because I am after all his wife and therefore, am biased.
Again, PUKE! BLEK! IDIOT!
Thirdly, in learning that I needed to play this game to get through his MLC, I read that I needed to validate him regardless of what he said about my validation. So at times, I have. I have validated his looks, his feelings, his that and his that.
And have I been validated in return? No. Initially, I was dismissed, insulted and thrown under the bus. No validation, in fact, the opposite.
Now that's he progressing, an I validated now? Not as much as I should be and mostly, when I point out that I SHOULD BE!
So, in my mind, "Validation" is an ugly, dirty word. And I swear, once through this nonsense, no one will ever get validation from me again unless they fully deserve it and, are the type to return it!
There! I fell better now! Thanks for letting me vent!
Hugs everyone!
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Can I chime in here?
I've come to think the word "validation" in any of it's forms is perhaps the most offensive and repugnant term in the world....LOL!
First off, it's the term H has used to describe what he needed from other women in terms of his attractiveness. He needed "validation" that he is still sexy.
BLAH! PUKE! BLEK! SICK!
Secondly, my validation of him was "meaningless" because I am after all his wife and therefore, am biased.
Again, PUKE! BLEK! IDIOT!
Thirdly, in learning that I needed to play this game to get through his MLC, I read that I needed to validate him regardless of what he said about my validation. So at times, I have. I have validated his looks, his feelings, his that and his that.
And have I been validated in return? No. Initially, I was dismissed, insulted and thrown under the bus. No validation, in fact, the opposite.
Now that's he progressing, an I validated now? Not as much as I should be and mostly, when I point out that I SHOULD BE!
So, in my mind, "Validation" is an ugly, dirty word. And I swear, once through this nonsense, no one will ever get validation from me again unless they fully deserve it and, are the type to return it!
There! I fell better now! Thanks for letting me vent!
Hugs everyone!
I understand why you feel this way! :) :) :)
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Hi OP!
I just re-read my post and boy, I do not sound like the 49 year old woman I actually am. I sound about the level of my darling's MLCer personality! LOL!
Oh well, you can't go through this without a bit of your own spewing and ranting and kicking and screaming...much like a toddler. That said, I DO feel that way! LOL!
;D
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Here's my two cents on the Validation bit.... I understand how you feel Bon Bon, totally! "Validate him" sounds a little like those published articles in 16 Magazine we used to read that advised "Let him win in Tennis and be a good sport!" :o After all, we know that's how OW hooked him and reeled him in, right? So why would we want to do that? I DON'T!! Plus, you're correct that they dismiss any compliments from us, because..... WTH do we know, right? We're just the old "ball and chain" and we're "supposed" to love them... unlike OW who "Had no choice because she tried to resist him because he was married, but she just couldn't.... her love and sexual attraction were just TOO strong and she gave in, even though she knew she would give up EVERYTHING in the end...." whaaaaaaa.... somebody call the whambulance! I think our husbands' out of control Estrogen levels are turning them into Romance Novel readers or something, LOL!!
Anyway, validating another person's feelings is what the both of you will be called to do in Marriage Counseling.... it is acknowledging the RIGHT of someone to their point of view, whether you agree or disagree with them. Just because you have made a judgement that what he is doing is WRONG, he is entitled to the DIGNITY of making his own choices and mistakes. Validaing means "I hear what you are saying" It DOES NOT mean "and I approve" got that? It means "I hear you".
When you think of getting validation from your husband, I'll bet you are actually expecting him to agree with you or change something once he has HEARD you and your feelings.... but that would be control.... saying how you feel and getting angry if the other person doesn't agree or change to make you feel better. Most of the time, if I say how I feel, my husband may disagree, but I can see that he is thinking about how to give me what I want, because ultimately, it makes him feel good to do something that makes me happy. You hear people say on here all the time "He knows how I feel.... no point in going over and over it.... that would be nagging."
Personally, I felt invisible in my marriage. Which leads me to wonder what is it in me that needed my husband to look at me and agree with everything I do or say? Hmmmm.... classic abandonment issues. Yet, when I get on a stage, I'm validated as smart, attractive, funny, talented by MANY and sometimes thousands of people INSTANTLY!!
The ironic thing is, I recently stated that I often felt invisible in our marriage and my husband HEARD ME and VALIDATED MY FEELINGS and AGREED TO CHANGE..... his reply to my statement was "I can understand how you felt that way. That was my fault, and I'm sorry." We did that all by ourselves, with no help from a counselor, and it was VALIDATION. But he wasn't capable of it until just recently! He KNOWS OW must go, knows it is wrong, knows it hurts me, and agrees, but has not changed TO MY LIKING.... got that? TO MY LIKING.
So, Validation is simply saying to another person "I hear you." that's all. Sorry for the hijack!!
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Secondly, my validation of him was "meaningless" because I am after all his wife and therefore, am biased.
I find this to be so true. I had such admiration for my H. I would still get excited every time he pulled into the driveway. I loved to express how I felt to him. It was something that I liked to hear, so I thought it was important to him. I believe he would have preferred acts of service.
I don't think he ever understood the depths of my love for him. I loved him just the way he was and overlooked any imperfections. Unfortunately, he became somewhat of an idol to me. His MLC has taught me that he really was just human. Made up of all the flaws that humans have. Some parts of MLC are a reality check.
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Still
I can totally relate. Everytime my H walked in the door I was so happy to see him -you would have thought I hit the lottery :) Every compliment I have him was brushed off with a negative one back about how fat he was-losing his hair-getting old-etc. I am sure you get the idea. I love him for who and what he is-the man I married . We all have flaws but I accept that fact. I don't expect him to be perfect . Maybe my cheering him on felt like pressure to him. I can't understand any of this . Don't need to waste my time trying to either. Work on me and see what happens.
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Every compliment I have him was brushed off with a negative one back about how fat he was-losing his hair-getting old-etc. I am sure you get the idea.
Good4You,
I completely understand this. When I would give my H a compliment, he would often say "Just stop". I used to ask him, "Do you really know how much I love you?" To which he would reply, "I think so." He would never say yes, which I always thought was odd.
I think it further reflects their inner turmoil and insecurities. No matter how much my H would accomplish, it was never enough for him, he would never just rest.
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LettingGo,
You had me howling. Romance novel indeed.
I never experienced negative replies when I complimented H prior to his MLC.
But during MLC? You bet. Although, there was a back and forth with him. At times he was uncomfortable, at other times, he ate it up like a sponge. But even when he loved it, it still was not what he needed (according to him). It was nice, but really, he said, it's like having your mother compliment you. She loves you and so, sees everything in a good light. He needed to be sexy and virile to other women.
This is exactly what he told me...not my assumptions.
I can't tell you how lovely it is to be thought of as my husband's mother. Not.
I would totally agree about the idolization. I too believed for 12 years I was married to the most wonderful man who walked the planet. Perfect? No. But close enough.
These last three years have certainly proven I was wrong. He even said to me that he knows he is no longer on a pedestal. That is one of the few things he has figured out correctly these last few years. >:(
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My H too would say I was complimenting him because I was biased. Clearly the many compliments I paid him over the years meant absolutely nothing. He would always brush them off, disagree, somehow negate them in some way.
Just yesterday I complimented the way he looked as he was all dressed up for an event. He grunted "thanks." I felt like an idiot later for saying anything at all. He has nothing nice to say to me.
I also thought my H was pretty awesome pre-MLC but he never accepted it.
Today I am struggling YET AGAIN with how my H could have thrown me and my love away. It meant NOTHING to him apparently, and that is stinging quite badly. He has also thrown away the kids' love as well, to a large degree and that makes my heart ache for them.
Maybe NOW I should be keeping my mouth shut since I am having a bad day. >:( Negative, negative, negative.
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Here is the official definition of VALIDATION
ThesaurusLegend: Synonyms Related Words Antonyms
Noun 1. validation - the act of validating; finding or testing the truth of something
substantiation, proof
determination, finding - the act of determining the properties of something, usually by research or calculation; "the determination of molecular structures"
authentication, certification - validating the authenticity of something or someone
documentation, support - documentary validation; "his documentation of the results was excellent"; "the strongest support for this view is the work of Jones"
monetisation, monetization - establishing something (e.g. gold or silver) as the legal tender of a country
probate - the act of proving that an instrument purporting to be a will was signed and executed in accord with legal requirements
2. validation - the cognitive process of establishing a valid proof
establishment
cogent evidence, proof - any factual evidence that helps to establish the truth of something; "if you have any proof for what you say, now is the time to produce it"
I don't see one single thing that tells me, that validating means I am hearing you. My understanding of the word and the definitions I have found seem to CONFIRM my understanding is correct.... that to VALIDATE is to CONFIRM!
Sorry, I will NEVER confirm something or anything that is not true! Just won't do it. I have NEVER told anybody that they are not feeling what they say they are feeling, as I do not know what they are feeling, HOW CAN I VALIDATE ? Certainly, I can imagine, I can even imagine how and why they might be feeling that way, but still I do not know for sure that that is how they are feeling. The best I can say is, "ok, if you say so".
Sorry but the way that word is "floated" around here, makes me uncomfortable, like I somehow must sacrifice my personal values and principals. Somehow, it feels sneaky and manipulative to me.
Just my opinion.
hugs Stayed
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Stayed I think you are correct but the point of validating is confirming that the other persons feeling are correct.
Does not mean you agree with their feelings just that you confirm that THEIR feelings are legitamte to them.
I do not think that it is sneaky or playing games to VALIDATE.
It is a neccessary skill that most LBS'ers must learn to deal with their MLC'er.
I will look to see what articles I can find on the subject.
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http://www.midlifecrisismarriageadvocate.com/Standing-actions_balancing-love_validation.html
Edit
This link is working for me. Oldpilot
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The link I posted didn't appear to connect, but it can be found by clicking on Site Map and scrolling down to the article.
Below is an exerpt from the article. One thing every LBS should keep in mind, that we sometimes forget, is to separate the person from the behavior. Validate feelings, not behavior. Like the article states, do not validate the MLC behavior.
From the article:
Validation is not synonymous with agreement. Validate feelings, not behaviours. Validating means you recognize he feels a certain way, not that you believe the feelings come from an accurate perception of life. Recognize the truth of how he feels. Validate that he feels his actions are right and necessary. That is not agreeing that you feel the action itself is necessary; it is acceptable to tell him that, but accept that he may become angry when confronted with active disagreement--such as contesting divorce action. That's the way it is. Accept the process.
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Another thread on validation
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=284040&page=1
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Oh, you mean like they VALIDATED our feelings!!! Right, it's clear to me now...
hugs... Stayed...
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I validate H's feelings in the same way that I do with my kids'. I listen, acknowledge their feelings and points of view, even when they are different from mine.
Of course it's not a two-way street. They're lost, we're not.
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I remember when I worked with mental health clients and they would often tell you of some of their delusions, and then asked if you believed them.
It was important to let them know that we believed that they felt that way, that their feelings were very real, however playing into the delusions is not healthy either, so I would respond something like" I do believe you, I do believe that your feelings are very real, and I'm here to help you deal with that.
So, I think you can 'validate' your H's feelings but not necessary have to agree with them. "I'm sorry that you feel that way" is a good way of validating without agreeing.
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How an u truly detach and live ur life when he is stilll at home an very much involved in all you do?? Please tell me how to detach? Am I supposed to tell him to leave? I'm so confused as how to a t. All i know Is that regardless the pain he has caused and the affair, I still love him and I want o save my marriage!!! Help me please. Guide me
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Hi Kappy,
First let me say that has to be the worst emotional torture to deal with when they are still home and having an affair and treating you like c**p. My hat goes off to those of you who deal with this. I know I couldn't. I would not be strong enough and am the sort of person that can't hide my feelings. I'm not a good actor.
I do have a close girlfriend however that has been living with this sort of c**p on and off for a few yrs now. Lots of our friends think she pathetic for putting up with it, but I think she is one of the strongest people I know. She has a very healthy self-esteem and never lets the comments get to her. She's knows they're not true and she rises above them. She goes on with her life-even takes the kids and goes off on vacation. She keeps up with her tennis, acting, work, and friends and includes him when he intitates it. She never demeans him, and treats him with respect. She pretends she doesn't know about his OW and in her eyes she treats him as she always has-with love and respect.
I think he respects her more than ever for it. He knows he's a $hit, and in his eyes she's the best thing that ever happened to him-he knows that down deep but often treats her poorly. She just doesn't take it personally.
Not all people hear would advocate this, but she doesn't even know about this forum etc. she just has choosen to deal with the situation in this manner.
He seems to be coming around and has made progress, but he does keep running back so I think the others on this forum would be better able to help you deal with giving him some boundaries etc.
I'm not sure how much that helps, but there are many on here who will come to your aid.
Take care
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Kappy, although my h was involved before he left home, I was not aware of his Affair. Like Rememberer, I actually have very little experience with dealing with a stay home MLCer who is having an affair, as well.
I agree with what Rememberer said though, as I too have nothing but admiration for those who can have these men/women living under their roof, while being disrespected so blatantly by their cheating MLC spouse. I honestly, don't know how you manage to stay sane.
Hopefully others will be along to give some suggestions, that helped them through this. Have you posted this on your personal thread Kappy? We have every type of situation in here and there is bound to be quite a few who will be better informed and able to you.
hugs, and an extra big (((((((((hug)))))))) for a very brave lady... Stayed...
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Time for a new thread... I am taking the letter with me to the new thread, as it was the STAR of the this thread.
http://mlcforum.theherosspouse.com/index.php?topic=1180.0
See you on the other side.... hugs Stayed...