Midlife Crisis: Support for Left Behind Spouses
Archives => Archived Topics => Topic started by: Mermaid on April 05, 2014, 02:59:11 AM
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I've found dozens of references to passive aggressive spouses but not a dedicated thread, so this is for all those LBS who find themselves in this position.
As passive aggressive people have fear of intimacy and direct conflict, it could be that this personality disorder is one factor leading to MLC.
Passive aggressive behaviour is the covert aggressive response to the world, without being directly aggressive or violent. It's characterised by the avoidance do dealing directly with intimate issues, and especially the inability to deal with anger in a healthy way. They withdraw, avoid, blame, obstruct, but never accept the blame for themselves. Their difficulty is relationships, not other areas of their lives, so they may or may not be successful professionally.
P.A. Behaviour is not an all or nothing thing. We can all show elements of this at times. But people who are really PA consistently behave in this way.
It's a dance... If you have a PA partner, your behaviour plays a part too. If they provoke you and you get angry, this is a reinforcement of their inner beliefs of the danger of confrontation/ relationships, so they withdraw. If you are anything like me, you get madder at the unfairness of their behaviour.
The PAs partner has usually had experience of this elsewhere (in my case my dad), so the dance is set up to continue.
We cannot change our partner. We can't make them reasonable, fair, cooperative, etc. but we can change our own behaviour. It's what I am going to try to do.
To start with, I leave you three links. One is a psychologist's point of view:
http://www.counselling-directory.org.uk/counsellor-articles/what-is-passive-aggressive-behaviour (http://www.counselling-directory.org.uk/counsellor-articles/what-is-passive-aggressive-behaviour)
Then a blog:
http://passiveaggressiveabuse.wordpress.com/passive-aggressive-behavior/ (http://passiveaggressiveabuse.wordpress.com/passive-aggressive-behavior/)
The other is the experience of a woman who decided that she didn't believe in divorce, so she learnt how to cope:
http://voices.yahoo.com/how-find-joy-staying-married-passive-aggressive-6241172.html (http://voices.yahoo.com/how-find-joy-staying-married-passive-aggressive-6241172.html)
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Thank you Mermaid for posting this. I can see my MLC'er here. I always said he was passive aggressive, but I didn't realize just how much. He ticks almost all of the boxes. I will follow this thread with great interest. :)
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Hey mermaid, thanks for posting these and also of starting this thread which I am sure will hit quite a few of us who are dealing with this type of individual.
One question that never seems to get answered is whether these actions are conscious of unconscious. The reason I would like to know this is because my FIL, my H and my son all have these traits which leads me to think that there are genetic factors involved, not just experiences.
I still carry a resentment for the way I have been treated by my h All these years, I really do. My life could have been so much different had I not got involved with someone who was PA. I know why I did and it was familiar form my mother.
My h fits all of the PA behaviours and traits it's amazing to read all of this and pick out your own life in it.
My observation regarding the improved behaviour towards the object of the PA is that it is nothing more than a manipulation that serves them, not the other person. I believe that they understand what a shameful way they have behaved and must claw back the good guy bit in order not to feel the pain of that shame.
I also believe that they do not have the capacity to love in a meaningful way, because it will always be about them not you. It therefore renders a huge suspicion over the "loving" way they behave on occasion As you begin to think about why they do this. Is it merely to manipulate you to continuing the dance they need to survive or is it genuine affection, which we know they are not actually fully capable of showing you.
Yes we can work on our reactions, but we must never forget that we have a right to how we feel. Being angry is a natural response and we have a right to show when we are angry, in healthy way. That where we need to work, to show it in a healthy way, not to suppress it and deny we feel it. The stonewalling the sulking, the ignoring and blaming are what strips us of our rights and that is not acceptable.
Resentment is a powerful negative emotion, I know because I feel it towards my spouse on many occasions. That emotion is a direct contradiction from love in my eyes. And I ask myself if my h has been harbouring such resentment towards me for 23 years then how could he ever have truly loved me. I cannot reconcile the two.
My own values are compromised when I think about what a PA does to me. I live my life by the fairness principle and even if someone may not like it, if it is fair and has taken into account all aspects and options then it is fair, that also means that I accept that I cannot have what I want all the time. I have not been treated fairly at all by my spouse and that irks me greatly.
I am not saying that we dismiss those with personality disorders as unworkable human beings or too difficult to handle, but what I am saying is that we should not let that dictate how we live out lives or have it compromise our own values and beliefs. Compromising those for prolonged period will eat away at your soul and yield unhappiness for us. We have one life.
Sd
X
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Oh my goodness Superdog! So beautifully expressed and some food for thought for me :).
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I know why I did and it was familiar form my mother.
So what does that say about your father?
We pick our partners by taking the best traits of our opposite sex parents and mirroring those traits, then taking the opposite of the worse traits of that same parent.
So when you picked your husband you used what you learned about your father to come up with that choice.
So yes your mother had a position in it too but so did your father.
Dont feel bad about this because it is natural biology that most of us follow.
It is quite interesting to follow, and trying to figure out what the next logical step is for us to FIX ourselves.
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Yes OP that's exactly right what did it say about my father. He has spent a frustrated life And his frustrations came out towards me and my sister and he self mediated with alcohol. He lacked affection and attention, Shew a selfish and childish I saw the lot unfold. He did not deal with her well at all. They celebrate 50years together this year, but in reality?????
I make the points about PA because I think that we all need to have a good long think about spending time with someone who does not bring out the best in us, but the stress in us. That is not healthy on any level for us.
Sd
X
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Hi superdog, lighthouse and everyone eles reading,
Like everything, there's no right or wrong answer, only consequences to our actions for ourselves and everyone else around.
Super dog, I know you've thought long and hard about this, and have already reached many wise conclusions.
I agree, we shouldn't repress our feelings, and their behaviour would make anyone angry. Personally, I'm not the repressing type. If I'm angry, I say exactly what I think. But then it sets up the cycle of H withdrawing, as if it was nothing to do with him, and then I get madder. The result is a showdown (my part) and giving the silent icy treatment (his part) It just doesn't work, an alternative is necessary. Either we walk away from the relationship altogether or we find a different way to react. This is what this thread is about... What alternatives are there?
One of the links above suggests that we can/should tell them calmly that their behaviour is upsetting, so it's not like we should reward their behaviour either by accepting it/ ignoring it or playing our part and confirming their expectations by getting mad... Either gives them too much power.
PA behaviour is not genetic. Traits and dispositions are, such as degrees of sensitivity, adaptability to change, etc. But PDs would still need the environment from which to learn the behaviour. Having a parent behaving that way is one way to learn it. My H is very sensitive, and was the eldest son. His mother is always giving the silent treatment when something bothers her. But I've never seen this behaviour in my sisters in law.
Are they conscious of what they do? Most behaviour ( 95%) is automatic, not decided consciously. They may or may not be aware of what they are doing, but they can certainly become aware. If we shout (like I do) they will focus on our behaviour rather than their own. Having said that, my H. Has been changing his behaviour over the past couple of years. He's much less likely to give me the silent treatment for 24 hours like he used to.
Another good point super dog, are they capable of love? As one of the links above points out, they tend to objectify us, which means they focus on their own feelings about us rather than ours. I've felt this for years. Yes, I believe that there is a part of H that is capable of loving me for myself, but that part is not always available. It's under layers of defensive behaviour (which is what PA is).
But they are all different. My H has PA behaviours, but that doesn't totally define him. He's capable of love, but are they all? I don't know.
But as OP says, wisely as ever, we have to figure the next step to fixing ourselves, not them.
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Great points mermaid.
I totally agree in fixing up ourselves and showing anger in a healthy way was one of my points to work on. Speaking up about how others make me feel is another rather than just bursting out with an angry statement. That is not for anyone's benefit but mine.
If I am honest I really upset myself writing these posts as I had a flood of emotions related to my upbringing and to my old marriage. But I also recognised that I have personally come a long way.
Working with a PD person is not a one way street. If a mutual compromise is not found then one person will always be compromised. I see no alternative to that unfortunately. I will read on and see what others have in mind.
Sd
X
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“The passive aggressive will say one thing, do another, and then deny ever saying the first thing. They don’t communicate their needs and wishes in a clear manner, expecting their spouse to read their mind and meet their needs. After all, if their spouse truly loved them he/she would just naturally know what they needed or wanted. The passive aggressive withholds information about how he/she feels; their ego is fragile and can’t take the slightest criticism. So why would they let you know what they are thinking or feeling?”
This is best what ever I found about PA. PA is PD disorder. Can be on scale from very mild till severe - pathological.
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Here are a few tips I found for dealing with the fragile ego of the PA:
Disengage: When we disengage, we set aside differences temporarily, while we remain willing to address them at a later time. It involves taking time to reflect, reduce the tension, and let our emotions settle.
Empathize: To empathize is to put ourselves figuratively in the other person's place. That very act will help squelch defensiveness because we acknowledge what the other person is feeling.
Inquire: When we inquire, we uncover the concerns of the other person. Asking questions allows us to focus on our task rather than our disagreement. After we inquire, we need to listen carefully, giving the other person our complete attention.
Disclose: When we disclose, we reveal our feelings, needs and goals to the other person. We can do this with "I statements" that describe our emotions, the precipitating event, and its tangible impact.
Depersonalize: When we depersonalize, we evaluate behavior rather than the person, and we look at our work as something we do rather than what we are. This allows us to free ourselves and others from the need to respond defensively.
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I'm learning something new every day. What I thought was H accommodating me actually sounds a bit PA-every decision I thought he was happy with, I got blame and resentment for.
He chose to leave his travelling career when S6 was one. I have emails to say he missed us and was ready to give up job and settle. Chose a lovely house near my mum's. Six months of depression, sulking and not coming to bed at the same time as me followed.
I encouraged him to travel with the racing cars again-seemed ok but always complained about team mates, boss etc. nothing was ever his fault
New team again-more complaining but we decided to move down south to be nearer work. I got kids in a school and we sold the house. Then he said he didn't want to move so I rented up here mostly alone. He thinks I didn't want to move. Never communicated what he was really wanting
Got sacked and blames me (it was about relocation allowance)
New team but miserable. Then left me
I always asked him what he wanted to do but he says he made decision I wanted. Resentment was a common feeling in our house
Says I never listened or supported him
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Great topic!
Does anyone have any books that they would recommend on this? Sometimes I feel like I am being PA and I would like to become more aware.
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Eek. Just diagnosed my dad as PA too.
Why do we marry our fathers?!
My dad=
No affection (apart from to kids below 10-tickling and squeezing)
Sits in other room when relatives are round-even at Xmas
Explodes with irritation about tiny things, criticises e.g my driving and how much water people put in the kettle!
Ignores anything to do with my brother (hates the fact my mum dotes upon him)
Troubled childhood he NEVER talks about
Secretly wants our company e.g went to his boat today but I have to stàrt every conversation
No idea how to deal with H or my dad (I think he'd probably like a big hug-he shows affection by fixing my car)
X
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Arghhh, I have just realized I married my Dad too! :o I can't believe I never saw the similarity until now...it just comes out in different ways.
Maybe from this thread I'll learn how to deal with my Dad better as well as H. :)
Btw, my Dad complains about how much water people put in the kettle too, and he goes into another room when relatives are around - even at Xmas. Our Dads are so similiar - spooky! :o
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Gosh. My family is one big psychology experiment today.
Yesterday me and dad took the little ones to the boat but said S14 could go with him and mum today.
Mum works full time, had been on a course and needed to visit grandad in hospital-as well as wanting to eat out and buy some plants.
Trouble is. Neither of them told each other what they wanted to do.
Dad says mum always organises his time on Sundays (not true)
Sulks and won't come for meal out with friends of the family over to see grandad. Doesn't offer to just take S14. Only thinks of himself
It's me and H all over-not sure if I'm playing my mum or dad in our marriage though.
My tip would be to make sure everyone gets chance to state what they want to do and it isn't just assumed that the other will take part. Also they should say how much it means to them.
It would've helped my H to not feel he was always accommodating me
I think maybe we were both PA
X
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Amazing how we manage to reproduce our past relationships, isn't it? But recognising it is part way to making different choices about how to deal with it. I've realised that I used to yell a lot at my PA dad (the thing he hated the most because it reminded him of his mother), and now I do the same with my H. My mum is a saint dealing with my dad, rarely gets angry, but does what she wants with her life.
Books. Loads out there, I haven't read any yet. Here are two:
http://www.amazon.com/The-Silent-Marriage-Aggression-Happiness-ebook/dp/B0090XFBF2/ref=sr_1_3?ie=UTF8&qid=1396813798&sr=8-3&keywords=passive+aggressive (http://www.amazon.com/The-Silent-Marriage-Aggression-Happiness-ebook/dp/B0090XFBF2/ref=sr_1_3?ie=UTF8&qid=1396813798&sr=8-3&keywords=passive+aggressive)
http://www.amazon.com/Living-Passive-Aggressive-Man-Aggression-Boardroom/dp/0671870742/ref=sr_1_4?ie=UTF8&qid=1396813798&sr=8-4&keywords=passive+aggressive (http://www.amazon.com/Living-Passive-Aggressive-Man-Aggression-Boardroom/dp/0671870742/ref=sr_1_4?ie=UTF8&qid=1396813798&sr=8-4&keywords=passive+aggressive)
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I remember my mother going in what we called the "huff" or giving the total silent treatment for up to 3 weeks at a time. My sister and I had no idea why she wasn't speaking to us, or if we did then we thought it was over after it was over.
When she did it with my father she would come and tell us to tell our father something. It was utterly ridiculous.
When I speak to my mum now she will say yes I know that was terrible wasn't it. Then she went on To say that she fully believed that she was the total victim of one or all of us and that it was up to us to come and make it up to her.
I see her and hear her still being passive aggressive to both me and to others, she is 72. PA is a lifelong thing. Each and every time she cannot see another side but her own.
She was brought up with a father at war for her first 5 years, then a mother who was too young to have 3 small children and she would get sent away to her grans house at the first available opportunity. She is still resentful of her childhood. I would also say that my mum used her sexuality to get the attention she so craved. To my knowledge no affairs, but she definitely played on the male attention. Absent father issues me thinks.
My father still gets angry with her, me I tell her when she is being difficult and 9 times out of 10 she will eventually come round when I just tell her then carry on without giving her the attention for it. Sometimes if I catch the tone in her voice I will tell her that unless she tells me what is wrong then I will just call her back another time.
I actually said to my h when he was actively ignoring me that he was an amateur, my mum could beat him hands down in the silent treatment so go for it, do his worst. :-)
Sd
X
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It used to be so frustrating when H would not talk to me. During monstering at the start he said the reason he was leaving was that I didn't listen to him :(
Now I can see that I would hear him but immediately look at it from my point of view and defend myself-exactly as my mum does. Strangely I always thought my dad was the bad guy but I have empathy for him now (and H)
Validating what he says is very important in our limited conversations, and making him aware that I appreciate his advice and see his point of view.
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My Dad has gone many weeks without talking to my Mum at times. My Mum is a right fighter and always has to have the last word, she's also got a terrible temper and will go from 0-100 in an instant and doesn't know how to express herself in a confrontation without shouting, so my Mum & Dad are not a good mix.
If ever my H and I got into an argument he would always just walk away and never deal with anything. The next day he would act as if nothing had happened so issues we had were never resolved. I found this so frustrating and resented it.
On reflection I can see that I had learned from my Mum to shout in a confrontation and sometimes when my H walked away I would follow him. Because I would get no response I didn't feel validated (which is an issue I have from my childhood), so I would say more and more hurtful things to get a reaction.
Now that I understand that my H's PA behaviour was from his childhood, I would definitely have to change my behaviour if we ever reconciled.
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This is so weird
My dad said just last week 'she always has to have the last word'
I watched them argue about digging up a bush and moving it. Escalated into an argument!
She thought he was criticising her and he really was trying to protect her car and warn her it was a big job! I think he wanted her to ask for help. He has a van!!
I said they should read some of the books I'm reading-what a pointless argument. Ended with mum storming off-I lived with that for 18 years. No wonder I always thought I was right and shouldn't back down.
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Thanks for starting this thread! It applies to so many of us.
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Our parents sound very similar Arghhh! I live with mine and I have to watch it on a daily basis. They really do act like children sometimes. I don't think I could get mine to read any books at this point, they're in their 70's. Good thing is, maybe we're starting to have some realizations ourselves and we can stop the cycle for us.
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Lighthouse,
I could have written your post about how you argued. I learnt the same way from my dad.
My h's tactic is to say something extremely offensive to you and walk out the room. Meaning he always tries to have last word. It's not just my style with him, I watched him do the same thing to my 10 year old. He offended her when the confrontation got a Little to much for him to deal with.
I followed too, but wouldn't do that again. It's not productive to have a Disagreement basically with yourself.
Sd
X
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My h's tactic is to say something extremely offensive to you and walk out the room.
Can You describe one of those situations what was before he did that ?
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Passive aggressives are unreasonable, indirectly aggressive through words and behaviour, blame others not themselves, and repeat their behaviour over time.
My H is more PA than my dad, but there are similarities. Dad had a totally dysfunctional relationship with his mother, and had been deeply hurt by her (and my grandmother in turn by her father...), but his way of dealing with problems was to criticize and deny my right to reply by saying "this is my house and what I say goes" and order me to my room. So the effect was the same... I wasn't allowed to reply, and he could get very angry (so not exactly PA). But I would reply anyway, furiously. He could be very unfair. He could be both aggressive (a furious temper) and indirectly aggressive.
The other thing he'd do was to talk to my mother about us in a loud voice, but pretending he didn't know I could hear. Every time it would freeze me in shame, even though my "sins" were not so bad.
Like his mother before him, he cut himself off from any friends he sometimes made, and found fault with everyone. It was his way of protecting himself. He also did that PA thing of avoiding doing things people asked him to do (so he could do it when he felt in control)
But my mother didn't partake in the dance. She understood his pain and difficulties, and ours too, and very rarely lost her temper. I think she had a hard time with him because he was so mistrusting of others, including her. She always listened to us, and interceded with my father when he was unreasonable. She knew how to leave alone to calm down, and would calmly ask my father to do things, without losing her temper and nagging. My dad (now 82) is still very negative about people and life, but has recognised after 55 years of marriage that his wife is very loving and loyal.
My mother is pretty much my hero, and one I look to for inspiration. I'm sharing this because although my father is more aggressive than PA, he has some of the characteristics, but my mother's attitude was great... she neither accepted his bad behaviour nor overreacted, and kept on with her own interests (and they are many!) so his behaviour didn't define her.
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Mermaid , thanks for starting this thread .
Just wanted to say that I have read the books that you mentioned and they are very helpful , they open your eyes to what you are dealing with it and why they are behaving like they are .
I think you have may have mentioned passiveaggressivehusband.com in one of the links , this website is a huge source of information and the people who run it also write some of the books that are about .
Callan
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I would definitely agree that my h is passive aggressive, but I've noticed a couple of things. Early in our marriage he was p/a but I intuitively learned how to deal with him and our relationship was great...right up to BD. When he is monstering he returns to his p/a behavior but when he isn't in monster mode he is less p/a. Has anyone else noticed something similar?
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Great thread~ the obvious NOT SO obvious question??? Can or willthey ever change? or is it up to us the change our reactions?
31andcounting
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Hi 31
The impression that I have got form the various things that I have read is that PA will always be there , counselling can help but it seems to be a long process. I did read something online which was written by a lady who though about leaving her marriage because her H was PA . With a of work and learning how to communicate better they got through it but the H still defaults to PA when threatened . I got the feeling from her that once she knew what she was dealing with she was able to cope much better .
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CallanG, that makes sense. My H has changed since leaving the tunnel, but yet recently had "an outburts" and a couple of days as "old H" I must admit, it was troubling and I am still a little off because of it. The silence and silliness ::) ::) The "I" will get over it in a few days statement..........
I told him " I am sad...this is the way "old 31 & H" would of handled this. He agreed but I still wonder. this reconnecting stuff is tough, and maybe tough as H is PA to the core I think!
31
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Albatross,
I will describe the last one I witnessed with my d10. She was crying and upset that her dad had called her brother fat at the dinner table. She thought he was very rude. He asked me why she was crying and I told him that he had said something that upset her. He went into the room with her and demanded for her to say what was wrong. She stood there and told him and he refused to acknowledge anything she was saying or indeed let her finish her sentences before saying it was all rubbish.
He could not handle the conversation with her and he stood up and said " you are so stupid, you better come up with something better than to try and be angry at me for" then stormed out the room and straight up the stairs to his room and shut the door. He left her standing there with her mouth hanging open even more offended than she was originally.
He later tried to protest his innocence to me. I said it wasn't my argument and she felt how she felt and it was real to her. He never spoke to her for a day or so.
Sd
X
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Albatross,
I will describe the last one I witnessed with my d10. She was crying and upset that her dad had called her brother fat at the dinner table. She thought he was very rude. He asked me why she was crying and I told him that he had said something that upset her. He went into the room with her and demanded for her to say what was wrong. She stood there and told him and he refused to acknowledge anything she was saying or indeed let her finish her sentences before saying it was all rubbish.
He could not handle the conversation with her and he stood up and said " you are so stupid, you better come up with something better than to try and be angry at me for" then stormed out the room and straight up the stairs to his room and shut the door. He left her standing there with her mouth hanging open even more offended than she was originally.
He later tried to protest his innocence to me. I said it wasn't my argument and she felt how she felt and it was real to her. He never spoke to her for a day or so.
Sd
X
Superdog, I was thinking about some situations before he hit crisis. Now in crisis he is taken over by his shadow, depressed, neurotic, even psychotic. In such state they act as personality disordered. And by the way he show open aggression in this situation. So, I am interested did he look like PA before he hit crisis and example of situation.
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Oh okay, well I can give an example of when he was in his band before bd. He did not like the keyboard player but would never say anything to him or challenge him. He told me that the keyboard player relied on him to start the beat then he would come in when my h played the first drum note. My h pretended to hit his drum stick so the guy would start to play his keyboard notes in the wrong place and look like an idiot.
He would often end discussions with me by standing up and telling me that I looked rough today was I not feeling well, or ask if I was menstrual given my tone. He would always say these things then walk out and not return to the conversation, leaving me even more annoyed and no further forward in resolving the issue.
When you did go back to the issue at a later date then he would accuse me of not being able to let stuff go and how I was a dog with a bone. It was always my fault. I would then take it upon myself to sort the thing out then it became a problem because I hadn't asked him and just did it. Crazy making.
So this behaviour was always present I just didn't hAve a name for it then and believed he was the calm one.
Sd
X
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WOW!!! You've all described my relationship with my H in some way or another. He was always telling me that I didn't listen and I mentally and emotionally abused him because I would lose my temper with him and shout.
He would coil and leave or become very silent and ignore me. I know my H is PA but is that a also a trait in MLC subjects? I think it may be as they don't really express their anger and become passive. I think at some point it evolves into full blown craziness....MLC as if the anger gets bottled up and finally explodes. Ummm? Great subject to explore. Thank you :-* SW
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Yes Superdog, that should be PA behavior in my opinion. And in man fashion, female fashion is punishment by silent treatment by days and controlling a spouse by sex.
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This is then something I will share. He shouted at me one time whilst in major replay mode that I used sex as a weapon.
I asked him a day or so later what he meant as I didn't know. How did I use sex as a weapon. I would always have he to go to him for that. He said he had no idea what he meant he must have heard it somewhere.
I thought at the time that ow may have planted that seed but maybe he was projecting at me.
Strong wind it seems a lot of them are. My h said to me one time that he daren't get angry because he would end up killing someone.
Sd
X
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Strong wind it seems a lot of them are. My h said to me one time that he daren't get angry because he would end up killing someone.
Good spot on is that he is aware of own shadow and losing control ie taken completely by his shadow. And that is the reason why he yell and leave place intimidate. He is on the edge, and that is bad. So, please don't challenge him when he is in such a state, he is really on the edge.
About how PA woman control and manipulate spouse by sex is that they "punish" spouse withholding sex from them. Living with really PA man or woman is living in loveless and sexless marriage. But those marriages fall apart very early not after 20 and some years.
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My mother, too, took PA to a whole new level. She used to write what I called poison pen letters to me when she was angry - in red ink - explaining everything I did to make her upset. I, of course, would get upset reading them. When I tried to talk to her about them afterwards she would put her hand up and say "I'm done talking about it" and leave me hanging there, not remotely interested in hearing my side of the story. Around the time I was 13 I finally figured out that it didn't matter if I read them or not since she was never going to discuss it. I took to just throwing them away and saving myself the upset.
Not sure about my dad though he and my H share a birthday. :o
So H's nature seemed normal to me, I guess. PA's train you how to respond, to take everything on your shoulders and not their own, and it wears you down over time. Since he's come out of the tunnel (and now that I know what I'm dealing with) I'm trying to change all that. I challenge him way more than I ever did and not let him "hit and run" so to speak. I refuse to take on responsibilities that are his, including for his feelings, and speak up when he's hurt mine. The challenge is to do it with love and without judgement. I think a lot of the lesson, for me anyway, is learning not to rescue him and letting him figure out how to handle these feelings he's avoided for so long. I used to fill that space and say "I'll fix it" or roll over and let him have his way just to keep the peace. Just as we have picked a spouse who behaves in a way that is familiar for us, they've done the same in finding someone who took on the role that is familiar to them. My mother's poison pen letters taught me that my feelings don't matter - the perfect set-up for the wife of a PA!
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I thought I would dig this out again as I have had such an experience with my h in the last few days that confirms the PA diagnosis I gave him.
For those who hAve PA spouses do you recognise this?
No matter what you ask or in what manner you ask it, you are firstly accused of " coming at them" then when you ask the question or make the statement your spouse turns into the worst kind of politician ever! Have you ever watched someone interview a policitican on TV? Did you see how frustrated they got?
You are sitting in front of someone intent on avoiding, derailing, subject changing, accusing, denying, blaming anything but give a straight answer. Then when you are left unsatisfied or have just had your feelings dismissed and belittled or have been insulted and you are accused of some heinous crime you have no idea about, rightly your frustration begins to grow. At this point if you can get out you get out, still completely without an answer to whether they want brown toast or white. If you can't get out then your frustration blows and it is at this point the politician recommends that you need anger mangement therapy? Or that you are aggressive when you speak Assertively. Wow !!!!
Looking back this has been my h's communication style the whole time we have been together and he is absolutely correct I have no one else in my existence that frustrates me more then he does when I need an input to an issue or problem.
How does this style of communication develop, it's so well honed and ingrained. All in the name of avoiding responsibility for anything. It's fascinating to witness.
Sd
X
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Attached to read later
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My mother has been like this all her life. .. she had a very authoritative father and grow up repressing her feelings and keeping quiet. Happy to report she's growing out of it now at 50 thanks to her very chatty outgoing no-drama new husband!
My X too has always been like this. And a big conflict avoider. Never confronting the crappy singer in his band then b!tc#ing about him to me for hours. Never expressing a preference about what to do where to eat or go on vacation then being angry we always do what I want. Never confronting me about any issues in our R and running away without a word to avoid confrontation and drama. Every time I tried to talk about something that bothered me he deflected and made it about something I did wrong. Only able to express an opinion in an angry outburst that left me completely baffled instead of having a normal discussion.
The more I think critically about his behaviour the more I realise he's a mess! Yet somehow I loved him anyway. .. silly me?
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Thanks Mermaid for starting this discussion. My MLCr and I fit this so well. It is funny because I never noticed this until my huband and I were forced by the judge into a four way discussion as he called it. We were supporte to meet with our lawyers and come up with a parenting plan. When we sat there discussing, husband said absolutely nothing. His single childless lawyer kept telling us what we should put into the parenting plan because that's what was in the courts book of suggested ways to handle it. My lawyer and I were trying to get them to listen to our individual situation especially the disabled daughter. Since she is over 18, lawyer said she is not part of the discussion. I tried and tried to get husband to talk and he wouldn't. My lawyer tried as well. Finally she said this is the first 4 way were only 3 people talk and he lost it. He started taunting her with things like gee you seem to be getting frustrated and comments like that. She got up and excused herself. I did as well. When I spoke to her outside the room, the first thing she said was I should be glad to get away from his passive aggressive BS. And that's a lawyer with 35 years of experience in these types of sitchs.
He has always either ignored things or done them poorly to avoid taking any responsibility for anything. Just in case it doesn't work out, he wants to blame me. I unfortunately have helped him in this behavior by picking up his responsibilities. He said that he just cannot talk to me about anything. Well, he never tried. Never answered any questions, never attended any school functions or meetings, never told anyone how he felt about anything. In his word, I just don't have anything to say.
At BD, he had plenty to say. All of it about how I never understood him, he could never talk to me and we have nothing in common. I might not have things in common with him, but Hmmm, we have so much in common.
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OMG emerald City you have just described exactly word for word what my h said to me.
Quite frankly it's all just BS!!!!! Your lawyer was spot on.
I can now spot a passive aggressive at 100 paces and I fully intend to have nothing to do with that type of person, it is nasty.
I also believe that they know full well what they are doing, masters at manipulation because they don't have the skills to behave like a normal adult human being.
Sd
X
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Sd, what are some signs that make it possible to recognize a pa before getting involved? I want to be able toaavoid them too...
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Sd, LOVE your ...Relax - they have a Karma bus ticket to ride. LOL! That is so very true.
I really wish I could get this ex of mine to shed that PA attitude at least for my kids sakes, but not sure it will happen.
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Great thread...i always knew my H had Pa Tendancies. ...initially in the beginning the behaviour confused me, over time he mellowed and I adjusted to the behaviour and adapted....Prior to BD he was depressed and became more PA...i think my tolerance lessened and I became more reactionary :( subconsciously. ..didn't help.
Now I act accordingly and dont react to monster PA...he responds more proactively to that.
Love your first post superdog.
Xx
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I have been doing some digging on passive-aggressive behavior this morning, and I came across a few articles and quotes that were very enlightening. I have started reflecting on the issue that, crisis or not, X clearly displayed PA traits all along. They might not apply to your spouses, but I thought maybe you guys would find these interesting nonetheless!
They are all readily available on Google, but I thought I'd past here some quotes I found especially relevant and the links to the articles I browsed. Obviously, for me the more relevant parts are the ones I recognise from my X's behavior, maybe you might find other bits more interesting... also most of the articles are specifically about PA men since that's what I was looking for, but I think the same dynamics apply for PA women...
"To be diagnosed with this disorder, individuals must meet the general criteria of a personality disorder and at least five of the following: procrastination and delay in completing essential tasks -- particularly those that others seek to have completed; unjustified protests that others make unreasonable demands; sulkiness, irritability or argumentativeness when asked to do something that the individual does not want to do; unreasonable criticism or scorn for authority figures; deliberately slow or poor work on unwanted tasks; obstruction of the efforts of others even as these individuals fail to do their share of the work; and avoidance of obligations by claiming to have forgotten them.
- The Passive-Aggressive (Negativistic) Personality Disorder (PAPD)"*
* I seem to understand now it's been included in the Narcissistic Personality Disorder instead of having its own entry
"The biggest frustration in being with a passive aggressive is that they never follow through on agreements and promises. He/she will dodge responsibility for anything in the relationship while at the same time making it look as if he/she is pulling his/her own weight and is a very loving partner. The sad thing is, you can be made to believe that you are loved and adored by a person who is completely unable to form an emotional connection with anyone."
"He has expectations he is unable to openly express and when you don’t meet those expectations you get resentment and covert punishment. And, you should never expect your expectations to be met, not even when you’ve expressed them in a clear, easy to understand fashion."
"You just can’t figure out exactly what you are angry about. He is sweet, kind and loving. He never argues, does exactly what you wish. There must be something wrong with you or such a good man would want to have sex with you, remember your birthday, put effort into solving the problems in the relationship or just show up on time every once in a while.
And that is the trap women who are involved with passive aggressive men fall into, they become responsible for all that is wrong in the relationship. He keeps you hanging in by doing for you when he doesn’t want to, by never arguing, by being such a nice guy. All those puzzling behaviors that send the opposite message that the other negative behaviors send. That is why they call it “crazy making” behavior"
"Withholds to Punish: He says one thing but means another. Sure, he wants to go to a movie. He even appears to enjoy himself until later that night when he rejects you sexually. You see, he didn’t want to go to a movie but, his passivity would not allow him to own it. His fear of conflict means punishing you in covert ways for something you “made” him do. "
"Passive aggressive behavior can show up in other subtle ways. Hard core passive aggressive people rarely initiate doing leisure joint activities, buying things, going places, celebrating special occasions, planning surprises, or giving compliments, and they often have a hard time buying gifts."
"A passive aggressive man will pull the rug out from under your life and as you lay with your head spinning he will deny any accusations of anger you make toward him and turn them all back on you. He is a genius when it comes to appearing innocent and only having good intentions and he does this in an attempt to have you believe that he is only acting with your best interest in mind. "
"OBSTRUCTIONISM - Just tell a p/a man what you want, no matter how small, and he may promise to get it for you. But he won't say when, and he"ll do it deliberately slowly just to frustrate you. Maybe he won't comply at all."
"What is so unsettling and painful is that you end up with the CLEAR belief that this somehow YOUR fault and that it's YOUR responsibility to fix it by being perfect. If it isn't fixed, you're not perfect enough.
YOU DID NOT BREAK IT... YOU DON'T HAVE TO FIX IT."
"It is perfectly reasonable to expect an emotional connection with someone with whom you are in a relationship. We expect police officers to enforce the laws, teachers to teach, etc.. These expectations put us into a particular mnd-set when we're around those people.
Over time you expect a relationship to grow and deepen. When your partner turns out not to be making an emotional connection, it causes trauma; THAT IS WHY THESE RELATIONSHIPS ARE SO PAINFUL. The trauma then does further damage as it undermines your expectations about yourself and YOUR abilities to make connections. As illogical as that may seem, it's human nature to look for the flaws in ourselves when things don't go as we expect. We end up being traumatized twice in these relationships; once by the loss and abandonment and again by the loss of our own confidence in ourselves. That is why the end of these relationships can be so much more painful than the end of a fully realized relationship.. We ruminate about what we could have done differently to make it work....""
"This kind of relationship becomes a constant exercise on keeping you -his partner- at bay while occasionally seducing you to keep you somewhat interested. When you receive little bones of appreciation, you tend to confirm again that he is a prisoner of his shield but able and willing to come out and play with you. ... So, you keep waiting years and years for him to come out of his shell and play!"
"It would seem reasonable to assume that they are just easy going and willing to go along with the flow and that is how it appears to the person on the receiving end. That isn’t however how it is. What’s really going on is that they are slowly building up resentment and in the typical Passive Aggressive way they won’t take ownership of their part in this dynamic and so they blame you. When they’ve built up enough resentment then they explode."
"Passive Aggressive Feigns Forgetfulness: He wasn’t as bad as some spouses with this, but it was present nevertheless. I always had the funny feeling that something was off but never managed to put my finger on it. I guess he was better at picking things that were hard for me to verify. I know that I used to ask him if he had downloaded the reports for the nightwatchmen or checked that he was arriving on time and I would be assured that he had done so, but he never did it. I always felt guilty because I always felt like I was nagging. These are common feelings for Passive Aggressive spouses.I got the height of this tactic after bomb drop. Firstly he forgot the two exams I was writing a day after he walked out. I assumed this was forgetfulness (from someone who could remember things going back 15 years!!?). You then learn that Passive Aggressives forget in order to punish and it becomes so obvious. So now I also know why he sent my birthday as one of the suggested dates to visit the divorce lawyer and then denied doing it. This is intentional behavior and it IS abusive."*
* This is probably mostly for me - X also claims he 'forgot' I had a PhD and a publisher's deadlines within 3 days of BD.
"It’s like being married to a turd that is packaged in a nice little ornamental box covered in perfume and flowers But it is sitting in the sun gathering pressure in it’s little dark box until it explodes and takes everything with it. The covert nature of all the interactions makes figuring out what happened a lot like trying to piece together a puzzle made from exploded $h!te.
The memories I formed in my marriage were of the pretty little box and had he died would have been the memories I kept. Having your memories rewritten and erased has to be the most painful experience of my life and while I’m healing very well and have a fantastic life it feels like a piece of my soul was torn out in the explosion."
"A passive aggressive is usually attracted to co-dependents, people with low self-esteem and those who find it easy to make excuses for other’s bad behaviors."
"My entire marriage consisted of me trying to find solutions to our problems and him withdrawing further and further away both emotionally and intimately."
"The passive-aggressive man may pretend to be sweet or compliant, but beneath his superficial demeanor lies a different core. He’s angry, petty, envious, and selfish."
"Ambiguity: I think of the proverb, “Actions speak louder than words” when it comes to the passive aggressive and how ambiguous they can be. They rarely mean what they say or say what they mean. The best judge of how a passive aggressive feels about an issue is how they act. "
"Obstructionism: Do you want something from your passive aggressive spouse? If so, get ready to wait for it or maybe even never get it. It is important to him/her that you don,t get your way. He/she will act as if giving you what you want is important to them but, rarely will he/she follow through with giving it. It is very confusing to have someone appear to want to give to you but never follow through. You can begin to feel as if you are asking too much which is exactly what he/she wants to you to feel."
"The passive aggressive never looks internally and examines their role in a relationship problem. They have to externalize it and blame others for having shortcomings. To accept that he/she has flaws would be tantamount to emotional self-destruction. They live in denial of their self-destructive behaviors, the consequences of those behaviors and the choices they make that cause others so much pain.
The passive aggressive objectifies the object of their desire. You are to be used as a means to an end. Your only value is to feed his/her own emotional needs. You are not seen as a person with feelings and needs but as an extension of him/her. They care for you the way they care for a favorite chair. You are there for their comfort and pleasure and are of use as long as you fill their needs."
"The woman who marries the passive aggressive man was taught in her family of origin to accept a high level of frustration for a minimal level of love and caring. When a woman marries the passive aggressive man she gets little return for all her effort."
"My ex husband was charming, needy and couldn’t be around me enough. He was every woman’s idea of the perfect man…in the beginning. Never once did I question his lack of relationship with his family. Or the fact that he didn’t have any long-standing friendships."
"The woman who marries the passive aggressive man spends a lot of time hoping for more than her husband is willing to give her. She wants closeness, cooperation, love and attention. She wants actions and behaviors from him that show her he loves her.
By the time my marriage to my passive aggressive husband came to an end I had no self-esteem. I don’t think I’ve ever felt as lonely and the sense of abandonment by my own husband was overwhelming. The loneliness I experienced in my marriage was worse than any I had ever felt as a single woman. "
http://divorcesupport.about.com/od/isdivorcethesolution/a/passiveaggressivehusband.htm
http://passiveaggressiveabuse.wordpress.com/passive-aggressive-behavior/
http://coralf.wordpress.com/2013/01/02/can-a-passive-aggressive-man-love/
http://divorcedmoms.com/articles/passive-aggressive-men-their-love-comes-with-a-big-price-tag--
http://www.couplesinstitute.com/does-your-partner-drive-you-nuts-the-passive-aggressive-personality/
http://abusesanctuary.blogspot.it/2005/10/passive-aggressive-personality.html
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This explains my entire marriage. Why I felt so lonely and angry when with him, sometimes questioned my sanity. Now that he is gone, I don't feel any of that anymore. I am actually happy, and quite sane and levelheaded. And he came across like the sweetest man on the planet. Now I know the truth. His OW that he married this past weekend, she thinks he is her dream come true. I wonder if he will pull the PA crap with her, or if it was just me that was the unlucky one. She is very bold and mouthy and always right. She likes to argue just to argue. I'm thinking she might build up his resentment quickly. I hope so. In my opinion PA people can not be cured, they just change victims.
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Dagolark,
You have describe my marriage to a T. Unfortunately, he will never see this is how he is, and this makes me think that he will never change :'( :'( :'(
FH
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Hey Dagolark, glad you went and did a bit of research on this one. Did you lose count of the aha moments as you read through? :o
My h is the poster boy for passive aggressive and I can probably supply about 100 examples for everything on the list that identifies the disorder. Pre mlc I might add.
I will also say this and its pretty similar to what toys said. I felt lonelier with him that I do now having nothing to do with him. I never lose my temper, I am happy I am content with myself. I dismiss his pettiness and his relentless criticisms as nothing more than they are, coming from a man who needs to do that to feel good about himself. Only you know what it doesn't in the end because no one can behave like that towards another human being without destroying a bit of their own soul.
I believe my h has quiet a few narcissistic traits, but not them all.
I actually look back at the times my h was actually sulking, like a child and it brings a smile to my face. A grown man sitting there sulking like a big baby.
I don't believe these men will change, not a bit, it's ingrained behaviour and they do not know any other way of coping in life. The same issues will return time after time.
Only the other week my h was really angry at me and I could see it, his whole body screamed anger. I pointed this out and he still denied that he felt anger???????? It's an emotion he cannot get to grips with at all he has been suppressing it for so long. They cannot be honest with themselves therefore never expect honesty with you. Or to stay true to albatross's thread, don't even hope for honesty it's not coming end of.
You know the old break up line it's not you it's me, well in the case of life with a PA we need to scream out loud, it's not me it's YOU. :-)
Sd
Xx
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Attaching! Thank you, great info!
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My H seems to be a low energy type of MLCer. His new thing is to leave the house and be gone as long as possible trying to make me react. I don't. Today, S16 was over at H's parents, and H was supposed to pick up S at 2:00 and bring him home. H woke up at 1pm, left at 1:20 to get himself some lunch, then was supposed to get S. At 5PM, I had to call over there to see if I needed to make dinner for S, but it turns out they were having dinner there. 9:30 pm rolls around, no call. So I call over there to see where S is and H's parent say they already left.
S walks in and I ask if he had a good time, he says yes. Then I mention that if he knows he isn't coming home for dinner, to give me a call. H walks in a minute later and I said "Did you have a nice time?" He says "It was an afternoon." He's surly. I said, "Calling to let me know S isn't coming home for dinner falls under the heading of "Common Courtesy" as we agreed on two weeks ago." H wants to be mad, but can't since he agreed on the terms. Suddenly, he's not surly anymore.
Has anyone else had experience with passive aggressive behaviors?
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OffRoad, I've merged your thread with a pre-existing one on the same subject. Reading it may help you with your situation.
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Attaching.
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Can I say Eye Opening :o :o :o the articles are describing my H to a T. I think people throw out the term "oh she/he is being passive aggressive" easily and don't really understand what it means and how deep it goes. Can it take years to surface because I didn't feel like my H was this way in the beginning but through the 14 years of marriage he matches every description.
Thanks for sharing the journey.