Midlife Crisis: Support for Left Behind Spouses
Archives => Archived Topics => Topic started by: Buggy31 on October 26, 2010, 09:54:25 AM
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Okay so I'm doing some thinking lately....and I want brutal honesty here...really....cuz sometimes during MLC it's hard to tell if I've climbed up the crazy tree myself hanging out with all the nuts and squirells ;D......but I"m just getting tired..whew...... as you all know...and my desire to PROTECT my children from exposure to OW has gave my MLCer power over my life and my freedom which and I want to take it back....basically I want to carve out some time ALONE and by letting go of the rope with OW I will be able to have more space from him and be able to nurture myself more....I want to be able to go out....drink wine....work on my writing....apply for jobs...and I'm doing everything here...so I"m considering a compromise with OW s***.
Now I recognize that I am being selfish and I also recognize that my oldest daughter will be deeply hurt here....and I don't want that to happen....and hit me with 2X 4's if you need to....hit away...if you recognize that he's wearing me down and I'm becoming weak with respect boundaries....cuz...it's not a made decision but I'm processing right now...cuz I'm at a turning point of really letting go here and i want to do what's BEST for them......really....part of that is having a mentally healty mother....
I would really appreciate feedback, advice and your own personal experiences.....on this subject...don't hold back...I've been dealing with an MLCer for 2 years...it would b hard to offend me.
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Op how can I fix this title...I meant it to say children hanging out with OW...although if the shoe fits....LOL ;D
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I'm not sure where to start... my situation is different from yours. I was divorced by my wife 18 months ago so I could not set this type of boundaries anymore. But regarding my 11yr old and 7 yr old son meeting the OM I would think that these are events/situations that probably would fall under the category of things "You can't control". MLCers are in their fantasy land and they would do everything that will push your buttons. MLCers will play the "one big happy family" in their fantasy.
I taught myself that as long as the OM doesn't physically or mentally hurt my children then it's just OK for them to spend time with him. I am confident that no matter how much the OM spends in toys, video games, or any material things on my children it will not compare to the bond that I have with them. At the early stages, I so wanted to say things to my kids but I have to stop myself (I took the high road). I can only pray to God to give me the strength and the wisdom to handle situations like this. I also taught myself that this is not a competition between me and the OM... so instead of providing my children with material things (which I have no financial means to compete), I taught them skills that they could not forget and won't dissapear. I taught them how to ride their bikes without the training wheels, I taught them how to swim, I taught them how to play tennis... the OM may have the resources to purchase the most expensive bicycle but my kids learn how to ride from me. The OM may have the resources to take them on expensive vacations in beaches or in pools but my children learned how to swim from me... (I'm not sure if my attitude that I took could be what they say here as part of "Letting go... and Let GOD..."
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I am also at this point ece...wanting to let go and let god...thank you for your input...it's too hard to hold up the deck of cards...we can only control ourselves..right? thanks for the input....curious to hear from others..
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Buggy
How old are your children. Sorry I know I have read it but have MLC LBS dementia.........
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They are as cute as a button. I can tell you that.
Saw their pics!
I'll guess newborn, four and eight - all girls(well I am not sure about the newborn)
Am I close?
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Personally, I would let your children hang out with ow on the condition that they break things in her home. For example, if they broke a lamp, they would get to stay up late. If they broke ow's favorite lamp, then they get a new toy. I know you are tired. However, I have trouble with the ow having time with YOUR kids. To me, it legitimizes what your h is doing because everyone is happy and everyone accepts what is going on.
If there is a divorce and a divorce settlement, then you have no choice. Right now, you and your h are married. It doesn't say that in the case of adultery, you get to share the kids with ow. In my case, I don't think my kids (one is 11 and the other is 15) are ready to start a relationship with a new father. In fact the oldest has already told me that in the case of a divorce she doesn't want to live with her mother because she is afraid of the men she would invite to the house without me around to protect her.
My younger daughter may go along because she is still at the age where she wants to please. That phase is about to change. In fact, in about a year from now, I could easily end up with full physical custody of the children. Then she would have visitation at best.
As I stated before, I know you are tired. I posted before that you need a break. But if your kids start hanging out with ow, are you ready to hear about her from your kids? Are you ready to hear how nice she is? That is something you have to prepare yourself for and it will hurt.
I am not an expert on this, but I feel you are frustrated and tired, but you really don't want ow to be involved with your kids. (((Hugs)))
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Buggy
My children are teenagers / young adults so I am not exactly in your situation; however, I am glad my children - so far - have refused to meet with OW. Some of this is because of the way I feel, yet it is more than this. From all accounts only a small percentage of affairs last and from what we have learnt here, as well as what we see ourselves, these are not healthy relationships.
You yourself posted the following on LG's thread recently with regards OP:
...my therapist says OPPOSITES ATTRACT and then they ATTACK....it's doomed regardless of where this MLC is going...they're doomed...and you can be sure of that....let that give you reassurance...you will see it end....and you can get satisfcation...not cuz your H and OW will suffer but because it will show you that GOODNESS prevails...just takes time..how long...who knows...
As I said my situation is different - although older children bring their own challenges - so I hesitate to give you advice; however, I think it might be useful to look at this in a more detached way. Do you really want your children building a relationship with someone who very likely will not be around in the future?
CS
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Buggy,
As long as you and your H are still married or even D for that matter. If your H is not married and living with ANY women the children should not stay. It is Adultry and them living together is not teaching your children morals.
Do you want your children becoming adults thinking that kind of lifestyle is ok. They may do it anyway but at least you can say I taught them better and know in your heart you did.
I hope i didn,t over step my bounds here but thats just how I feel and my 2 cents.
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Thanks for the input everyone...my H doesn't live with OW....and I'm not ready for sleepovers....not now...no way....I have 8 year old D (who is my biggest concern) 3 year old and 5 month old....Believe me I don't want this and I am detached from H and OW drama but sad when I think they will play family.....It's just too much and unhealthy having him hear hounding me....I have not gotten the space to heal...and he WILL not shut up about it and I've set boundaries....you can set boundaries like crazy but if someone is going to treat you bad....they will do it....and I am starting to accept that I can't protect everyone's emotions...if that makes sense....and in order to protect my children from his BS....because I've sacrificed my own life...and how long can that go on....plus it's just another thing for him to harp on....I can't control it and trying to SUCKS....too...
I talked to his therapist today and he pretty much said that it is not so much being with OP as it is conflict....GOD KNOWS what H is telling therapist...I don't feed conflict here in the home...but H is a victim right now so who knows.....I've watched my H flail as he seeks happiness leaving us..not working....exploring relationship with OP..not working...filing for divorce...not working....hanging out with kids and her family....pretty sure this one will NOT be working too...I don't know so much to think about...no easy answers here.
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Buggy,
I read your thread but I read so many I get them mixed up and I can,t remember my own sitch sometimes.
You kids are just babys. I am so sorry you and your kids are going through this.
I can,t even imagine what it,s like with 3 little ones and having to deal with this MLCes mess. Hugs to you Buggy and much Love.
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Buggy, follow your intuition. My concern, especially since your children are so young..that since you don't know the OW (and personally I'd have a hard time thinking about her as a positive influence on my children's development) I would not be able to really relax when they were in someone else's care...as well, especially for the the really little ones..would they have difficulty with separation anxiety??
Perhaps consulting with a child psychologist would make sense. I know you don't want to deny their father time with his children..but understand where your concerns are coming from. Take care
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Buggy, tell him to shut up about OW, you don't want to hear about her! SHE IS NOT THEIR MOTHER!! She has her OWN kids to take care of. Tell him to BUG OFF on this or get a court order. The kids don't WANT to be with her, he is just trying to pawn them off on HER so HE doesn't have to come over to your house and actually TAKE CARE OF THEM!! The situation is only uncomfortable because of his STUPID, SERIOUSLY PSYCHO CHOICES!! OW is NOT THEIR MOTHER and NOT his WIFE!! You don't owe HIM or HER anything!!
Ok, now feel free to ignore my rant and do what is best for YOUR situation! You know best... (((hugs)))
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Oh I answered Buggy on my thread.
It must be so different over there. My H would have just gone ahead and done it anyway if I had tried to stop him. And legally... well legally it wan't going to help. I swallowed a very buter pill to protect my girls from any nastiness.
If your H is "being reasonable" I would take advantage of that to have some control over the situation before OW starts saying she can't stop you blah blah blah.
Pick your boundaries and lay them down.
If he isn't living with OW maybe one rule can be she isn't to stay especially as he is being reasonable.
It sucks so bad.
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Mine did expose them to OW once at a party...D8 came home and told me that she spent time with "daddy's friend"....played with "daddy's friend's kids"....."daddy's friend" gave her a silly band bracelet....they were so :o they made it obvious by not sharing names.....really..never told me he was taking them anywhere.....were supposed to be staying at grandparents house.
He was rebelling against a boundary and I was P***** so I said he could see them here or at parents or if that didn't suit him after a custody agreement....he listened....and usually does...but it makes him mad and gives all sorts of justifications.....anyway I believe she's probably pressuring for this next thing.....as he's already filed for D so the fun's over with that....there is always a next thing with these two....so I remain detached and very aware of what I can be expectin...they do not live together.....YET!
This is the most painful for me....A real jab in the back.....he knows they mean the WORLD to me.....he knows I don't want them exposed...I believe this makes it even more enticing...it's really quite sick...but I'm sick of the fight.
You're so right.....it sucks....really......really.....bad
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(((hugs)))
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buggy
I have a D14 she is completely exposed to the OW, started behind my back, he lives with her. She is very afraid that the OW will get knocked up. She loves her dad but also hates him. He has damaged their relationship but he has no clue, she hides it from him, because she fear he'll choose the ow and ow's kid over her. She made comments that she hopes they rot together and how could I have married such a man. He forced the ow on her to prove that he was over me. Sick mlc thinking. I don't know what to tell you, these mlcers are bond and determine to destroy everything and to do what they want. Best wishs
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That is one thing my w has not done is tried to push the kids on the OM situation. I think that would be the end of all things that we know of. Mercury's case and my case tend to show that the teenagers really have a hard time with MLC as opposed to the younger children. That doesn't mean that later on, the younger children will have issues. My point is that the teenagers feel just as betrayed as the LBS. They feel conflicted as they don't want to destroy their relationship with their parent, but they feel that everything they have lived was a lie. My own daughter telling me, "What does she mean that she has been unhappy for years and years. Was she lying to me the whole time?"
I will state again that having the kids be around ow/om is not good as the relationship between the MLCer and ow/om is not strong. Bringing the kids into their mix now has them deal with two awkward relationships, the one between the LBSer and the MLCer and the relationship between MLCer and OW/OM.
This is just my opinion. Hopefully, other will write about their experiences and the reactions of their children.
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Iwould put my foot down about the OW having contact with my children. I think it is wrong. My daughters are 33 and 22 and H told youngest she would have to get used to the OW being around because they were dating now. She told him, NO WAY!! She said she is nothing to me and she doesn't have to respect her in anyway. My H definitly knows how she feels.
Hang in there and put your foot down. this is so wrong to do to your kids.
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My kids and 13 and 14, and I would ABSOLUTELY not allow them to have anything to do with OW. Right now, they do not even know about OW. BD was only two months ago, and my H has not moved out (but he wants to really, really bad).
His relationship with OW is not out in the open, so I did not see a need to tell the kids about her. I have been hoping that somehow, the OW relationship would end and the kids would not need to know. I do realize that if he moves out to be with her or they start being more open with their relationship that the kids will have to be told.
I am prepared to tell my H that as long as he is married to me, I will not allow OW to have ANYTHING to do with the kids. I believe their relationship is wrong, and I do not want my kids exposed to it. Now, in the event that H files for D and is still involved when it is final, I would talk to H and ask that he allow the kids to get to know her on their terms (if they wanted to).
I hate this situation for my kids more that anything. When I was a teenager, my dad went through MLC and cheated on my mom. My mom was an emotional wreak, and she told me and my sister every sordid detail. I was the oldest, and Mom really depended on me more than she should have. Thankfully, Dad did not try to push OW on us. We never met her, all we knew was her name and everything that Mom told us about her. Dad and his OW did break up, but he and my mom never reconciled. I hated my dad for several years, but now we have a good relationship.
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Thanks for weighing in JF&D
Interesting that you have the perspective of MLC from childhood.....I feel and have felt the same way as you about H and OW relationship.....I growl like a mama bear when I know that they could be exposed to such BS.....really....but lately I have had to accept that MLC is very long....very long.....and could get bad.....and from a legal perspective....there aren't many rights to protect children from this sort of situation...emotionally....so...it could become something that is out of my hands...plus my H knows it's hurtful and when in monster...almost panicky...uses it as control...I read a good quote today from a book that is helping me I'll be back to post it in a little bit....it helped me in dealing with my emotions surrounding this sucky sitch
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The trouble with children so young is can you rely on the OW to keep them safe and make them happy. If she has other children they will always without fail come first not yours. If she has no children she will be as jealous as h**l of the children.
MLC men have no understanding of their own live never mind protect their children. This is obvious in the way they treat them when they are older.
As their mother you know what is right for them. My H OW has met one of mine as the others refused to meet her. S said she didn't want to be there and neither did he but both had been manipulated by H to play happy families and he was oblivious to the misery around him. S never wants to meet her again.
xx
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The only time I would ever recommend children having contact or activities with ow/om is if they put sugar in their gas tank or take ow's credit card number and give it to the Russian Mafia. Other than that, no contact. However, if someone thinks of other activities to be approved by the group, Please post.
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I'm going to talk to my daughters therapist...and see if we can somehow just calm him the hec down......do what's in her best interest...maybe we could explain the sitch to her and then perhaps let her choose...I don't know...she is very smart...with a strong voice....and I really think she will be honest...hmmm...My H's OW has 3 children!!! So I don't like the fact that they will be watching that many kids....I am a very good, well experienced mother and six kids makes me want to run for the hills...don't know why they would even want to occupy their "alone time" with kids......doesn't that screw with the fantasy....didn't he run to her to escape that s***...now he's adding three more..... :o :o :o :o :o It's nutz....I tell you...I really....really appreciate all your advice....I don't know what I would do without your voices of reason....
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As of this time, you are not divorced from this man. The answer is no! if you are divorced and he has custody and this is his new relationship, I might understand. However, this is a tart he is shacking up with. She has her own kids. He wants to play the good guy and ease his guilt by creating the "happy" family. Wrong. It will confuse your kids and hurt everyone involved. As I stated before, your kids need to deal with and heal from the issues between you and your h. They are not on firm ground to begin with. On top of that, you and I both know that h and ow's relationship is weak as well.
The kids need stable, lasting relationships right now. Even if you met someone new and decided to give your h the boot, I would still wait until the divorce was done and time had passed before you introduced your children to your new relationship.
Right now, the kids need to deal with just mother and father and do not need to have any other relationship forced down their throats. When I get home tonight, I will research university database for any articles on this. I will then post on this thread. (((Hugs)))
PS- Maybe you should put sugar in OW's gas tank or sell her credit card # to the Russian mafia. Also, you may want to send ow on a scenic hiking trip on either the Iranian or North Korean border. It may be a tad expensive, but the results are very satisfying. HeHeHe
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Ready, thanks for the daily dose of laughter!!! Dealing with our MLCers is depressing enough, So slugging is the best medicine. Too many nuts and squirrels around as someone else on the forum said LOL
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I'll be checking in for the articles...Ready...thanks
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I am in your position as well. My Husband did it without my permission. The children spent the night at his house and I later found out that she did too. My children are 5,7 and 9. They are starting counselling next week because I am afraid they are getting confused. I also think that they were used to prove that we were no longer together.
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I also think that they were used to prove that we were no longer together.
Yes I get this too...my intuition is telling me this...it seems to be a way to inflict more pain...I think merc said it too in an post above...like look I'm so sure....I'm moving on....I'm introducing her to my kids...I am HAPPY.....so THERE.... that's the sense I get...inflicting me with more pain..for me a REAL slap in the face as she is a mother with three young children....it STINGS...I gotta say...I've learned not to react and honestly I am pretty detached...much better....even about kids and OW...because I can see patterns in him that is leaving me with confidence....first off I KNOW he is not happy and I actually am quite entertained at how he pretends...I think that's why he doesn't like being around me....he knows I see through the BS...Secondly it seems like it's not so much about him taking the kids to see OW as it is hurting me or engaging me....MLC is all about pain and pain likes to be fed and I'm not sure if the ULTIMATE BETRAYL is the affair or involving the kids before the marriage is EVEN over...it's a real shot at family...which has been his and my life for years....really...
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Buggy like I said I knew H would do it anyway.
I spose I look at it now as well.
When it all first started H would take the girls Friday and on his weekend (and this started 6 weeks after BD like I said legally in Oz it sounds a LOT different to other places). I would not see the girls till Monday morning. He would bring them home Sunday afternoon late and he would stay but I was working an afternoon shift till midnight so wouldn't see them.
That changed and Sundays were no longer a working day for me.
The girls continued to stay till late Sunday afternoon with him.
Then he started bringing them back early Sunday and he would stay (most times) the day.
Lately he brings them the Saturday and they spend the day here, while he works on his car, go home with him and then come back early the next day.
I have no idea how long it will last for, maybe till the car is done.
But then again possibly longer. The car was one excuse, another excuse sits in the wings waiting he has to rebuild a trailer, and then another excuse also sits further back.
But maybe not after all this is MLC.
Anyway I know I am the odd one out here but I see it as he WILL do it if he gets in the mood.
You WILL hate it but as I said if you give a bit of leeway it may stop other things you hate more.
What will stop him taking the kids and going somewhere where they meet up if he gets in the mood?
I know you are married and there is no divorce BUT hello he is busy hurting you anyway with no care for you what is he going to do? If it gets too much he WILL do it.
Now I knew OW, but I would have insisted on meeting her if I didn't (without kids) because I stand strong and I am a better person than she is and I want her to know it. When she came with H for my girls the first time (and everytime since) my body language is one of superiority to her. I am perfectly polite but there are ways of standing and facial expressions that put her directly in her place which is less then nothing to me.
All this of course is lost on H as he is a male and honestly female interactions are lost on them.
I stand firm on this
Refusing to let him take them gives him a power to hurt you by sneaking it behind your back. Gives HER a power of HA HA HA look at what i can make your H do. I am better then you.
Take the power into your hands. It will hurt you but he will not know how much, you can say I don't like this but...
It removes her power of being able to push.
I understand where others are coming from. I do but I have also read on these boards and another where they find out by accident that OW has met them anyway despite them saying no.
TAKE THE POWER INTO YOUR HANDS.
Set down that they won't stay at his house... fine
set down they go with dad during the day.
but take the power before he sneaks it.
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Research article #1. This was research done on spirituality and divorce. Over all, the article found that children of divorced families had higher levels of anxiety and depression than intact families. It went on to state that the divorce really makes those that have spirituality in the home question their own beliefs in other words, a strong Christian family that frowned on divorce the children's own spirituality would be more impacted than a family that did not have spirituality.
The part most interesting to you my friend that the study really pointed at the individual's coping skills to the event. Your h needs to be aware of his daughter's coping skills and strategies. Especially if the retention of the family is important to her. My advice is to work with you and your kids on coping just with the issues between you and h. Neither one of you should attempt to bring in new "loves" to the children at this time. It will only add to their stress and anxiety.
Hope this helps. I will have more research tomorrow.
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PS- Maybe you should put sugar in OW's gas tank or sell her credit card # to the Russian mafia. Also, you may want to send ow on a scenic hiking trip on either the Iranian or North Korean border. It may be a tad expensive, but the results are very satisfying. HeHeHe
I'm sorry, but I laughed until tears spurted out of my eyes; first Ready is heavily into STONING the adulterers, and if that wasn't funny enough; he comes up with this!!! LOL!!
Buggy, you have more power than you think; you can restrict what your husband does in regards to exposing the children to OW; you don't KNOW that OW would be good to your children; it is likely, she may NOT be; and she may be abusive toward them.
The trouble with your husband is that he is NOT thinking about the welfare of the children, he is only thinking of himself; and how this suits HIM.
You ARE THEIR MOTHER; and you have a huge say, regardless of whether your husband likes it or not.
Protect the children at all costs; and set your boundaries well in regards to the children.
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Ready I understand your statement I really do. In a perfect world it would be ideal.
You know this and I know this, but we are talking about MLC and they really aren't known for thinking clearly or rationally, or actually caring about what another thinks.
This is why I say take the power back from them.
If he sneaks the kids out (a likely hood) really how is that better with him saying don't tell mum as she will be mad/sad blah blah blah and then the kids letting slip and feeling awful as mum stands still looking shocked, ill and horrified as she tries to process it all. This way you have some control. You have a chance to stop the cycle of lies before it even looks like happening
If you think he will respect this paticular thing fine stand your ground but chances are with OW pushing it will happen.
LOL definately outnumbered it's just I have seen it happen as well.
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I have to agree with HB..protect those kids at all costs! This is not a game. We see and hear of horrible abuses all the time..I do not wish to frighten anyone but I have worked with children who have been physically and sexually abused and I would be very cautious as to who gets to be with my children.
You may at some point be forced legally to allow your H to have what he wants..but in the meantime, your control is tied into what is best for your kids. I'm not trying to be vindictive..but really, this is MLC right and everything that we think our spouse would NEVER do has been shown that unfortunately they will do.
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Exactly Xyzcf which is why I say keep it in the open.
It may seem as if I am standing up for OW BUT i AM THINKING OF THE KIDS.
If they don't get a chance to sneak it then the kids are exposed to LESS lies.
If you meet OW you are real and a formidable force. NOT just a shadow.
I will shut up now but I SEE it very differently to everyone else. I don't know why it is.
It isn't that they are wrong but I sense you think he may sneak them out.
Only you can judge if he will sneak them to her or not.
And you can decide what to do from there
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Shantilly,
I only know what I get out of reading the threads; you do have a valid point; but the track records of OWs in regards to MLC'er's children, aren't great; and I'd hate to see the children abused by Buggy's husband's OW or EVEN Buggy's husband; considering his track record of the past. It is rare that an OW doesn't abuse children. You don't know what happens when the children leave your care; depending upon how old the children are.
My concern is for the well being and protection of the children; I wasn't trying to "outnumber" you, or cast my vote opposite you; you are entitled to your opinion just as much as the rest of us; so feel free to elaborate at any time...and I realize you don't need my permission to do just that. :)
I'm simply explaining what I think; and what my intuition tells me at this point.
And my intuition tells me to advise protecting the children at all costs; her husband is not very trustworthy based on his past track record.
Sorry, Buggy, I call it like I see it.
You could do what Shantilly is suggesting; but only if you're comfortable with it; I cannot say that it would lessen the lies that are being told; but from what Shantilly has described, she has experience with making sure the OW knows her place; as she is operating from a position of strength, not weakness.
Me, I don't care what the adults are about; I only care for the welfare of the children...that's my only concern.
I know the child we had was a teen when my husband was going through his crisis, but my protective instincts were just as strong then, as they'd been when son was little.
No one was ever going to get the opportunity to mistreat my child; whoever would try that would have had have to run a literal hole through me to do it. And don't think for one second I would have stood for my husband mistreating our son. He would have had to deal with ME; and it wouldn't have been pretty at all.
This is all just my opinion, other than what my intuition was telling me....and I don't have all the right answers all the time. I get quite emotional when it comes to children and the possibility of them being mistreated by someone...the little ones don't have a way of defending themselves; and it is up to us as the parents/adults to care for them, and take care of them.
Buggy, you continue to be in my prayers; for God to guide you in the decision that is before you. He will guide you into what you must needs to do; this I know with a certainty.:)
Much love to you,
HB
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LOL HB,
Your concerns are valid as well, Buggy unfortunately will have to figure this out.
My standing on position of strength comes from the fact that if I am seen as strong she will be less likely to 'hurt' my girls.
Believe me I told OW exactly how it would be.
BUT then agan my H is totally different and I trusted him to make sure the girls were never hurt like that. One of the few things I do trust him with. I know this deep in my soul. he has distanced himself in day to day but if someone goes to hurt them he is THERE all over them LOL.
I also clearly remember a conversation he had with OW and he was ripping shreds off of her as she had tried to discipline the girls. He was telling her she had no right to do it at all. He didn't know i could hear this conversation by the way.
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The bottom line is as mothers or fathers we may have to justify in later years why we let them go and stay with OW/OM, partucularly for the younger ones who have very little say on what adults do around them.
The younger they are the less cognitive ability they will have to understand and work out what the dynamics of this 'new' relationship.
In some respects we parents with teenagers and young adults are lucky. They set their boundaries and stick with them. Even when they meet OW/OM they have an option to vote with their feet.
No matter how hard we try and protect our children the impact of a seperation is devastating. Children are very black and white how they view the demise of their parents marriage even if those parents are lucky enough to rebuild a relationship at a later date.
Buggy I think you are right to talk to your children's counsellor and get advice.
xx
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I knew there might be some debates on this one....but really...I think it's good to be able to explore all sides of this...really...my first instinct is of course...NO OW....and like I said before this is less about kids then it is about control....so my intuition is providing me with some direction at this point....and one avenue I am considering is of course STALLING and being less defensive with the issue to allow for more STALLING.....I WOULD ALSO INSIST
A. on meeting her should there come a time when I must let them meet her...and I will be straight, short and somewhat sweet.(see below).
B. Asking my H to meet with D therapist to discuss a plan which is sensitive to her needs and voice
C. Buying my D a cell phone to be kept to call if she needs to
D. NO SLEEPOVERS
E. Must know where they're going and who they'll be with
These are LAST RESORT/WORST CASE scenarios...because I want to avoid there exposure to this OW...Some of these may stall them as well because I get the sense she kind of a wimp and my be afraid to meet with me...maybe not...just a feeling I get...I think RCR talks about it...she's clinger...
This is what I would say to her if I met with her
"I am not happy with this situation....I believe it is wrong and hurtful to both my children and I....this is the hand of cards I've been dealt so I'm tolerating this....I will be polite to you OW in front of my children for the sake of my children.....it will be an act to protect them from conflict...I know you will understand as a mother yourself...I only want what's best for them"
SL what did you say to OW...just curious..maybe I could steal some lines....
HB...as always thank you for weighing in...I totally appreciate your perspective and feel you and I are similiar in the way that we grew up in abusive situations as children which makes us particularly sensitive to this issue...This issue doesn't only tap into what I believe is right and essential as a mother but also triggers some major childhood wounds that brings up fear, anxiety etc...I NEVER CHOSE this situation for my children....and I get angry to think that there could be a possibililty they would be in harms way....I will not take this lightly and am going to really pray about it....Thank you everybody for your honesty and concerns. I'll keep you updated.
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First of all, I am going to state that I am totally against ow meeting your children. At this point, do you have confidence in your h's ability to make sound decisions? This woman knows you and your h are married but still hooked up with him. That demonstrates the complete lack of her moral character as well.
Have you ever heard of the phrase "A fool and his money will soon be parted"? How about my "An idiot MLCer with his equally idiot skanky ow will somehow or someway harm his kids?" Somehow those two phrases should connect and when I figure out how, I will let you know, but I digress.
I have concerns about my w's thinking process. She has left the stove on and burnt food. She leaves things in the microwave. She forgets dates and appointments.
I have issues with her watching her own kids and they almost 11 and 15. Do you want to turn your babies over to to nutjobs?
Let'em experiment and hurt her kids. Until then, she stays out of YOUR kids lives. (((Hugs)))
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Wow ready..you sure don't mince words do you?
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check in on my thread i have a not too surprising update
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Hi,
OK, my sitch has taken a massive turn for the worse today; kids like OW and pretty much accept the situation as it is.
I had no trouble talking to them when they were sad about H leaving, sad about him not being here, sad about us not being together. One son still is, but the other two, at least D so far for sure, are saying "well, he has his life, and I like her".
I know they aren't part of the Stand, they are fully entitled to their own thoughts and feelings, and I don't want to mess this up.
I don't want to end up in a competition with this "nice, smart, clever, apparently well off" OW. I haven't seen a picture, but I"m sure ugly she isn't.
I remember my stepmother doing this -- being really cool, buying us stuff, having a glamorous job, taking my sister on an exotic holiday with my dad. And that wasn't MLC -- it was my mother who left for OM.
I look at our comfortable family home, but designer perfect it isn't, even if I am a designer. I don't have the energy to do impressive dinners all the time.
The worst thing is that now, every time I think about treating them, it feels like I'm trying to bribe them. It becomes a competition, and they get used to just getting great stuff all the time.
And I don't want to do ANYTHING that makes them feel torn, or feel that they can't have their own feelings.
Please help -- even though BD was 3 1/2 years ago for me this is new. I haven't had to deal with this before.
How do I talk to them? I know I need to keep things "business as normal", our routine, our rules. That's not a problem.
And how do I deal with the feelings of betrayal? All along I could think that H was hurting, confused... but now even the kids see that he's happy.
This is still very raw.
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You are their Mom, nothing can replace you, and DON'T forget that!
You are not in a competition with this OW, don't let her get in your head.
Kids don't want stuff or trips nearly as much as they need a stable parent.
They are a part of YOU. Just keep loving them.
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Your post is very hard to deal with. It is something that I have I have thought about. What if the kids like om and he makes my w happy? However, I think you have to realize your kids are trying to cope with an unhappy situation. Do you really think h and ow live the perfect life? No! I do not care what the situation is, you trade one set of problems for another set of problems. Even the kids will come to that conclusion. The odds are that ow will not last. Then your kids are going to have to deal with that loss as well.
Continue to live your life the way you want to live. Don't think of it as competition. Think of it as doing what you want to do. God Bless You and remember that you will always be their mother. You will be their best friend for life. Keep that in your heart and keep the love going. You are doing a great job and God will guide you to a better place. ((((Hugs)))
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thinking of you T&L and struggling with the same questions......really...no easy answers....answer their questions as they come with as much facts and little emotional expression as you can but explain your emotions....you know...I don't know that will be my strategy....
Rest assured that he may SEEM happy but can you remember times with your H where he SEEMED happy to others and wore a different face for you...now you are the others....because he shut you out...and all IS NOT as it seems...He may be experiencing pleasure...but that is not happiness...and is not sustained...and does not come from within....so it will continue to be unsatisfying until he can come to terms with true joy and happiness. Any relationship formed in his current state is not a solid union....remember that? don't let em fool ya
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T&L
I can give some perspective as my kids Dad left me and I had to deal with that. He had a "friend" who happened to be there a lot.
It is really important that at least in one place they have normal routines and boundaries. Whatever happens they need to know that you love them and home is a safe place to talk about their feelings. I encouraged them to talk about what was going on for them in "the other place" and tried hard not to be judgemental, even though I hated it. I always told them that Dad loved them.
It will only be a competition if you think it is. My H had a lot of money and went through the treat stage. Of course the kids liked the treats, but they weren't swayed or bought by that. They remembered more what he didn't do for them. He didn't nurture or take time to listen. They remember that.
It feels so hard at first, but eventually it became routine for them. No matter how many treats were on offer, even that became routine.
Then they start to see things in their own way. it's surprising how thoughtful kids can be.
They saw behind the treats. The treats gave a superficial feel good factor, but the kids kind of knew the score. Kids are amazingly adaptable if both parents can work together to minimise the impact and not project their feelings onto them.
Yes it means being happy they've had a nice time at Dad's. Being super impressed with the toys. Wearing a smile and not letting your feelings show. They need to know you're ok with it. At least for now.
There were problems with my younger S, he hated the change in routine and leaving me and then coming back home were always difficult times. But he did get through it. I think possibly because I didn't allow myself to show upset about his behaviour. But inside it was hard.
Now as adults they tell me how they really feel about their Dad. They do care, but I am the one they turn to and trust. I don't have any money, I don't have the nice life. But they both chose to have the deeper relationship with me.
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T&L
This journey really stinks and puts us in positions we would never choose.
Your D maybe saying she likes OW and her dad needs his life. She is sure of your love and secure in that you will always be there for her. Her dad well that's another thing. He walked out on them and left their mother for another woman. All kids hate that.
They sense his betrayal on them. They have been taken to areas of sadness they didn't know existed. She doesn't trust this man. He is not her dad but she so wants him to be........
So the deal is she will like OW and accept his new life if it gets her the dad back she so badly wants. She doesn't like it but it is something she has to do.
Unfortunately your H is going to have to decide who is number 1 for him. He is now in a lose lose situation. Your D will expect to be number 1 but so does OW. Your D may not like this OW as much as she does now when things calm down and she sees her in true glasses not rose tinted ones.
Big hugs at this time. This is a terrible situation to find yourself in. But time will tell.
xx
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T&L
I feel your pain and I am not sure if I can offer much advice as my H has not left for an OW. But when he left he told our youngest D that he was leaving for a job (in another country) implying he will be back. She asks everyday when he will be back. This lie prevents me from really explaining how things are to her, especially why I get so emotional or angry at times.
I don't want her to lose the love she has for her Dad. I did not have a good Dad myself and even though this has happened H was/is a great father. Her expectation that things will be back to normal some day silences me. I have become very practised at changing the subject or just allowing her to talk about how she feels rather than blurt out the truth or talk about how I feel, I have other people I can do that with. Maybe try to let them feel how they feel and rather than competing, stick to your core values and talk to others.
This is all so unfair but I wish you well and know your strength will see you through.
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Thank you all; I know others have had to deal with this from the beginning.
That is one of the problems. He has been gone for 3 1/2 years, in truth he has been through several OWs -- this is just the first time he has introduced one to children, or anyone else, for that matter. For the first 2 1/2 years he was insisting that he never left for an OW, that finally came out a year ago. As did a lot of other crap, the kind which really turns your stomach.
Your D maybe saying she likes OW and her dad needs his life. She is sure of your love and secure in that you will always be there for her. Her dad well that's another thing. He walked out on them and left their mother for another woman. All kids hate that.
Well, he walked out.... they don't really see this as him leaving for another woman. He said that he left because he was unhappy, and that now he is seeing someone. A lot of time has passed, especially in kid years.
So he can easily pass this off as "we've been separated for a long time, this is now a relationship", so he doesn't have to face the "he left T&L for her" scenario. That is also why I asked if this as well was an affair down. I take on board what the answers were.
But yes, I fully see that she will take him any way she can get him. She even once said that yes, he's having a mid-life crisis. And that she was sometimes afraid that I might leave, but then said "but you can't, Mum -- you have to look after us".
Other son hasn't said a word about her; he talked about his impressions of the holiday, mostly about the games he played on the many electronic toys they had..... he did say he was a bit bored, which is normal for a 13-year-old in a place like that. He didn't mention OW when we talked; only once did he say something about her camera when they came home. And I didn't feel like bringing it up and asking how he felt about dad having a girlfriend.
Special needs son again went to bed just crying, saying he wanted Dad here, he wanted us to be a family. He had a mini-rant saying "he's not my dad anymore", but that was just a sentence or two. He says "Dad's an idiot", but only sometimes. It's in anger. He says that he loves dad and wants him back. Cries why did Dad break his wedding promise.
Somehow I find that easier; I guess because it's almost a mantra to son now and I know the responses; and of course because it's how I feel.....
Don't worry, I've only said positive things about how nice a time they've had; they didn't come back with piles of stuff, and even brought me a sweet little lavender bunny, which I will sleep with; it's meant for that, I think. I've NEVER badmouthed H, and won't.
But I did tell D that I thought the situation was wrong. That one doesn't have a girlfriend while married. It was in context; I think it was OK, but I'll listen to views on that.
So I know I can handle (at least on the outside) letting them talk safely about their feelings and about what they do with dad here; but the next question, building on what I said to D is:
What is it OK to tell them about values, marriages, keeping families together (the 'staying together for the sake of the kids' or not argument), all that? My kids know that I place a high value on family, and it does come up occasionally, but we've never talked about this girlfriend issue, and whether that is right or wrong. I don't want to come across as moralistic and preaching, either.
At the same time I don't want to say that "well, these things happen, it's OK". Thoughts?
V, I know they will eventually see me as the stable parent, and everything you say. But that doesn't really help now, unfortunately.
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Maybe I am going to take a 2X4 for this, but I am so tired of the comments that one should not question the behavior of the MCLer in front of the children.
Your comment that any spouse should not have a girlfriend or boyfriend while still married I feel is perfectly acceptable. I am not saying you rant about it, but in a calm voice explain that this type of behavior is not acceptable at all. Why should our children face bad adult behavior and we stay quiet about it?
One of my changes that I have worked on me is speaking up with conviction in the face of wrong. I don't care who does the wrong. I even speak up when I have been wrong as well.
I am not going to go along with the flow or with the norm if it goes against my convictions or beliefs. From my perspective, you have every right to let your kids know what you h is doing is wrong and hurtful. This is not hurtful just to you but the kids as well. (((Hugs))) and more ((((Hugs)))). I think it is fine to talk to your kids about right and wrong even when it comes to your spouse.
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Here here Ready
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Thank you, Ready.
Yes, I am certainly learning to speak up when I feel something is wrong. And yes, I have been quick to admit when I'm wrong as well.
I vacillate on whether it is worth constantly telling H that he is wrong, however. (this is getting off the subject of kids...).
But I have also had conversations with the kids on their behaviour, and not just the telling them off for bad behaviour at the dinner table. I remember my D telling me how she and some friends had treated another girl, and I did ask her to consider that what they did could be described as bullying -- asked her to consider how the other girl felt.
It worked.
And yes, I am the parent, and when the opportunity comes I will calmly impart my values to my children. So far I have said to my D that yes, he is married to me and when you get married you promise _____, ______, and _____. That isn't to be taken lightly. That I think it is wrong to have a girlfriend in this situation.
As it was never overt before the subject never came up this way.
It is also important for them to not see me as a doormat.
I realise that telling them all this might get back to him, at least I work on the assumption that anything I say gets back, as they tell me what he says. And yes, he knows my stance, so that is fine as well.
This still feels like a nightmare from which I should be waking, and then there is the double horror of realising that it isn't a bad dream.
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Don't let the situation turn into a competition between you and the OW, TAL. And don't let her have "power" over you...do NOT ever allow her to make you feel that you aren't "good" enough.
All that glitters is NOT gold; and your children will see through all of it, in time, as the new will wear off...and what's underneath won't be all that it seems.
This will come in time.
I have not dealt with what you're talking about; but I know that as a mother, you've done all you can do for your children; and you won't "lose" your children to OW.
Children need MORE than material things; they need a shoulder to lean upon when times get hard, they need love and understanding when they need it, and they need to have someone to count on.
You ARE that someone; you are their MOTHER; and NOTHING will EVER take that away from you.
You are a rock for your children, stronger than you will ever take credit for. In spite of all of the mistakes you've beaten yourself up for, you have BEEN THERE for your children; and in many ways, you will always be there.
You've given them MORE than your husband will ever think about giving them; he abandoned them, you did NOT.
Give yourself MORE credit for being who you are; and for the strength you have shown in such a terrible situation that has gone on for SO long.
Above all, hold your head up high; you did NOT commit adultery, your husband did.
You are in a better place than he will ever be in; you retain your integrity, honesty; and you are guilt free...he is NOT.
Just a few words of encouragement; you're handling the situation the best way you know how; and you're doing fine. :)
Much love,
HB
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Thank you so much for stopping by and for your kind words, HB. They always mean a lot.
It's better this morning; with the kids, at least -- getting back to normal. Rationing computer game time, getting on them to do things that I ask, making them get dressed, asking about homework for tomorrow, etc. :) They are still enthusing about how nice their holiday was, but I haven't heard OW name. I listen to it the way I would about a school trip.
I am careful not to tell them that all divorce is wrong, that any marriage is forever -- they don't know, but my very bad choices as a late teen/young 20's was marrying my high school boyfriend, someone I should never have got involved with in the first place. That was my reaction to my father's alcolhism/mother's affair/parents' divorce. I came to my senses and got out pretty quickly after I actually married the guy, but it's also something that happened and is part of my past. It took 2 years for a divorce to be official, (which was longer than the "marriage"....) during which time I did have some dates, but didn't have a physical relationship. I was first introduced to H somewhere in the middle there, but there certainly was no relationship and I didn't see him again for 18 months, by which time that previous mess was all over.
I talk about owning up to your mistakes, and that forgiveness is possible when you own up to your mistakes, are truly sorry, know they were wrong, do your best to make amends and resolve not to repeat those mistakes.
That sometimes you do something thinking that it is OK, but then realise you were wrong. That happens because we are human. That the important thing is to own up to having done wrong, and to take steps to correct it. Lord knows I've done enough of that.
Thank you, I feel much stronger with regards to the children right now.
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Why are many MLCs so cruel to their families and utterly disconnected from their children? My H. does not look at or talk to our daughter unless she speaks first and she is not interested given his affair. It is miserable. Why no regard for the family they once loved? He seems to keep "punishing" us every time we dare assert a boundary or our D. will not just "get over it" and accept his new life. Once again, he has disappeared since yesterday afternoon. No word. It scares our daughter, but he cares not. He says he wants out, and we have now had to ask him to leave for our sanity, but he has not moved yet. He says after the first of the year. Why does this make me so sad when I know it is necessary? Ugh. Will I EVER get stronger and be able to choose joy?!
Phoenix
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I think it's because they are stuck in their own head and are EXTREMELY selfish during this time. I have noticed over time, it changes towards the children.
I'm not mature enough to have any good advice, but if you want him to leave, maybe you shouldn't let him tell you when he is going to leave. If you need to protect yourself and your D, don't let him tell you when. Tell him when he needs to be out by and follow through. I know it's been said in many posts not to boot them out because they will blame you.
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Pheonix
Sometimes for your own piece of mind and that of you D's them moving out is the best answer.
If I had to be with my H trough this on a full time basis I would certainly have been committed already. Have a good holiday and enjoy
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You will get stronger and you will expereince joy again..it will be with small things but it will come.
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Yes, I have noticed that disconnect with the children, too. It's so very sad and hurtful to the kids as well. They (the MLC'er)almost become one of the kids, sort of like a selfish teenager that only thinks of me, me, me and more me. It's crazy making for the LBS especially if they have teenagers at home...it feels like they ALL are just thinking about their own needs and you are the only one sane and still giving, giving, giving. There are times when I wished I beaten him to the punch sort of, in that, I had been the one to run off and get my own place and think of only me for a change. But I would never do that. Someone has to run this ship!
Even the teenagers(the kids)themselves notice this change within their Dad. He puts his and OW's needs before us, and they resent that, and think it's weird. He is turning them against him and he can't see it for the fog. We(the LBS) have to stay out of it, or they will blame us. I say let the chips fall where they may. The kids are wanting to be with him less and less because of it.
One day he will be sorry and have a lot to make up for, but one can only control oneself and try and validate the kids feelings,give them as much love and support that we can, as they are feeling it just like us.
I feel for you, as I could not have him like that living amongst us, like he is. NC is so much better, and I think helps protect the kids too. Try to ignore him as much as possible and go with your life in a detached fashion. Try to remember that it's not you that is nuts...it's him!
Hugs to you and your kids. May you find strength.
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Hi,
I know I'm not a newbie and should probably be able to answer this myself, but I have a question about telling H stuff about the childrens' schedules, etc.
Specificially regarding events such as their school plays and things. I.e. should I forward information from the school regarding dates? I had at one point asked this particular school to mail stuff to him as well as to me, but they usually just send letters home rather than post things, so only I get them. (This school isn't that great on admin in general.... but that's an aside). The other two schools send their bumf to him directly, so in theory at least he gets the calendars.
I started out telling him when things were, but haven't been for quite a while now, as part of the "don't use the children as an excuse to contact him" thing; son sometimes asks him if he'll go to a particular event, H then checks the date, if we have it.
But this morning he e-mailed asking me "if there is something significant with the children please could you let me know the dates as early as possible". I hadn't told him the date of S's annual special needs review, he hadn't asked even though the subject had come up in conversation several times back in October. I guess I was making it up to him to ask. Now he says he can't come, hence the request for me to tell him earlier.
OK, so I e-mailed back dates of a few pretty important things, including some parents' evenings, even though I know he does get information from the other schools. Now a letter has come about some dates from the not-so-good-on-admin school, I'm sure S would like H to come to his play.
H has only come to a very few parents' evenings since he left, and hasn't asked when they are. I haven't been volunteering.
It's not that I don't want him to come, it's that I don't want to be seen as pursuing or "mothering", i.e. sorting it all out LIKE A WIFE DOES. I do also wonder if I'm doing a bit of the "I won't tell you, it's up to you to find out" thing. The "this is what life is like now" thing, and am wary of letting pride or something like that get in the way of behaving decently.
And I don't want to give him any more reasons to be angry at me or to have a problem with me. I don't want to give him things to fight against.
It really doesn't take anything for me to make a copy of a letter and leave it for when he stops by, or to forward an e-mail or something. One of the reasons I don't is that I don't really want him to think that he can just pick and choose which things to come to -- saying yes I can or no I can't. But I may be way off base here.
The more I write the more I think that I should just forward the stuff without comment and forget about it.....
Such a simple issue on the surface, isn't it? And in MLC even the littlest things get distorted and drive us nuts.... :P
I try to run everything through the filter of living as if he weren't coming back; or even as if he had died. Well, if he had died stuff like this wouldn't be an issue.... the rest is the "amicable separated" relationship stuff. Stuff that exists if he's living with us or not. And then I get stuck....
Grrr.
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Maybe someone else knows if something like this exists online...
On most emails systems there is a calendar function where you can set the clendar to send reminders. Is there such a calendar that is not directly connected to an individual email account, but that you can set up to send the notices to multiple accounts.
You could both have access and input dates and events, view the calendar whenever and have the calendar ping you with reminders.
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Yes
There is something called the "ourfamilywizard" or something like that and it's great because all you have to do is type in all the info and he can access it should he choose to. It costs about $100 each parent. I think this is worth it...really. Check it out. I
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OK, that sounds interesting, but I'll admit my gut went "yuck!" In effect it would only be me inputting dates (because it's only me that has children info he might not have) and him deciding whether or not it suits, which is basically the same thing as me sending him e-mails.
So on that score, I might as well just send on things without comment; that way he can't say I didn't tell him. It wouldn't remove my issue with telling him, so I might as well just do it.
Although it's something that I could see working well in a reconciled family situation, where all family members keep each other apprised of all sorts of plans.....
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On this I would treat your parenting as a business relationship. Definately forward emails, notes, and any information reagrding your child's schedule as soon as you get it.
Then drop it.
If he shows up, fine. If not, it is not your problem.
I use the free google calendar. You can set up seperate calendars on the same account then control who can view each one. I have a private calendar too, but I also keep one with stuff I don't care if H sees and a seperate one for our D3.
If it is something big, I email or text him.
I feel it is my responsability to share this information, but it is not my responsability to follow up.
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Thanks, HFZ; I think it is me who had the problem in this instance. I just hate him saying "if I can" to things. Regarding special needs stuff, that may be even pre-BD; I did it all myself and became resentful...
Looking deeper inside (the mirror isn't always a comfortable thing...) I do see that it's been me trying to do something, somehow control things or whatever. And my own deep fear of the "separated" relationship.... I've often felt that I'd rather he had dropped off the face of the earth. So that's my issue.
I had a look on the familywizard website, and recoiled -- our sitch definitely isn't what I would describe as "high-conflict"; if we can have a civilised conversation about the childrens' birthday and things like that then this really shouldn't be an issue.
It's me that has to get over the "If I can" thing, most likely.
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My H rarely 'commits' to showing up for anything, so I have had to work hard to have no expectations. Recently he has gotten even more unreliable. I try not to tell our D that her daddy is comming unless I am SURE. Even then, I still get caught having to tell her he isn't going to make it to something.
I think in this case, giving that information to your H about your kids is the more 'dim' thing to do. It is about letting go, not keeping contact in this context.
Just my .02.
(((hugs)))
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Maybe this doesn't relate....as my kids are Juniors in high school and our oldest is in college.
My H is a big (if now unreliable) boy.
He can talk to his kids...find out about events...and go or not go.
I don't feel it is up to me to keep him informed.
If the kids want to tell him...they can.....he can also ask them what they are doing, when, and where.
For those of you with younger kids...it is a different situation.
That's my .02 cents.
L
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I do think it changes when you consider your kid's age. Also, if the school had sent the same information to both parents, then nothing would need to be said in that case. Since the school hasn't been communicating with both of them, then it puts the parent who is getting the information in an awkward spot.
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Dear Friend,
I am not one to try and stir the pot, but it makes me mad when one spouse makes the other responsible for informing the other about schedules and times and events. My w has not attended one awards assembly, attended any parent teacher conferences, spoken to either of my daughter's teachers, and constantly has to be reminded of activities and events coming up.
She had nothing to do with either of the girl's birthday parties other than attend. If your h wants to be a part of your children's lives, then he needs to take an active role in their lives. He has a phone, he can call the school, he can talk to your kids.
I may be hit with a 2X4 on this, but I feel that your h wants you to be responsible for him. It gives him an out at all times and enables him to blame you when he does not feel like being responsible. Everything is always your fault. I get it all the time. If I don't talk enough, then I am ignoring her. Try to talk to her, I'm not giving any space. I think that you and I are in the same lose, lose situation and it is best to just do what makes you happy and don't give a hoot on how your h feels.
As I said before, he can get mad and glad in the same pair of pants he's in. Just my opinion, but I think you are being too kind to him and putting up with too much of his silliness. ((((Hugs)))
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Hey, I'm not going to 2x4 you, but I'm sticking to the 'tell-them-and-let-go stance'. If I have information about my D, who is only 3 btw, and fail to TELL him, it is on me. If he has been told and fails to note it or forgets... that is on HIM.
Please note, I don't remind him or ask if he will be there or not. I make my own plans and let it go at that.
If she were 13 it would be different and more of this would shift to the child. At 23, different again and an even bigger shift.
Just my .02 though.
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TIL
You mentioned that you can forward emails. Why not add his email to the email distribution list at the school so that he gets the emails directly from the school. For upcoming classroom events or special things i went directly to the teacher and asked for the monthly schedule. I forward that once a month. Fortunately, they usually have a lesson plan that carrys them through the month.
I have added my H to the email list and to the phone list. For example, yesterday they did a telephone announcement about the school being on lockdown. The message goes to both my cell phone and his cell phone. It's like a reverse 911 system. Most schools have this.
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It's only one of our schools which isn't so great on admin; I have asked them to send stuff on to him, but they don't send much by post or e-mail; it's mostly just letters home. That I can't change.
It's very few things, actually; I can ask the school again to send e-mails to him as well, as well as add his cell phone to the list if they haven't already done so.
Yes, Ready, I see the point that he wants me to be responsible for him. I guess it's more fear in me, fear of yet again saying "this is now your responsibility"; fear of him walking yet further away. But what's he going to do, leave? :)
The other part of me is darker -- I think I probably have been intentionally not telling him, without explaining why. But I got a bit defensive when he asked, rather than saying that if he wanted to know he needed to get the info himself.
Food for thought.
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As ever, sitting on things for a while always makes things clearer. That is what is so good about this forum.
I've composed a short, very polite, e-mail, which hasn't been sent yet, simply saying that I've been thinking about the dates issue and think it is best if he ensures that he has the necessary dates, etc, himself, as I can't be sure of what he has and doesn't have, and that it isn't right that I become responsible that he has the necessary information. That I of course will answer questions if he has any or needs to check something, clarify things, etc, but that in principle I will assume that he has the same information from the various schools as I do.
I may refine that a bit, but that way he himself can sort whether or not he gets e-mails, texts or whatever. I had already asked all the schools to do that, btw. Two schools I think are fine, it's just the third one that really isn't great on admin. I find myself going in to their office to check things quite frequently.... But if that's their only failing then I'll forgive them, because otherwise they are great.
The unsaid subtext here is that it's a WIFE's job to give him this info, as he has made me redundant then that is no longer my job.....
I will of course inform him if anything drastic happens, if a child ends up in the hospital or whatever; this really is strictly about school dates.
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Sounds like you found a good solution for your situation.
:)
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T&L,
I think you just have to find what works best in your situation.
Even though my H lives at home, there is less communication than some people have who are separated. I forward any emails to him, write down any dates that come in the mail, and keep a master calendar on the refrigerator. Once I have told him things, I do not remind him. I am fortunate in that he has remained very involved in appointments, school meetings, kids' lessons, but that may all change once he moves out.
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T&L,
H also assumes I will take care of the school stuff and let him know about dates etc. For a long time, he would participate only if he felt like it, there was no point for much of that time for me to give him any schedules, he was not in that zone. Now, he will cycle, with several weeks or a couple of months where he wants to know and attends many things, and then a month or so when he forgets completely the most basic details such as what dates to pick up the toddlers.
We have just agreed for me to put this in writing for him for the next term. He is still terrible with keeping track of even basic emails, as he had an almost photographic memory pre MLC, and never used to have to write anything down. I will also provide information such as links to the schools latest news letters, so that he can look up the information for himself in future. As he looks after the toddlers himself for many key events, I will need to remind him of the most important ones that fall when he has them, only so that the toddlers do not miss out.
My main goal, in my case, is to do as much as I need to do to make sure my toddlers life runs as smoothly as possible. They are just too little to be able to do keep track of their own schedule right now. In my case, H attempts to do the right thing in this area, so this solution is tolerable for me. It has, however, been a very long time since he has heard from me about anything such as car insurance. He did realise after three months it had run out, and eventually sorted it!
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Thanks, everyone. Ready's words really crystallised it for me; the bit about me being responsible for him. That sorted it in my mind. So if I particularly want him to be someplace, yes, it's up to me to tell him when that is. And certainly I'd tell him about emergencies. That isn't the issue.
This really is about the general attitude that he expects me to be responsible for him knowing; I guess at this time it's right that if he asks, I'll be happy to tell --- even if he says "could you let me know about ____". It's just the basic bit about me telling him about everything and him just picking things "if it suits".
I haven't actually sent the e-mail yet; sometimes the universe intervenes and my internet was down all day yesterday. Now it turns out that I have another legitimate reason to contact him (to do with childrens' birthday present), so can tack this on to it, so that it doesn't come across as being belligerent for the sake of it.
SR, if he were to ask me to put down all relevant dates for a term I would certainly do it. It's the "assuming I'll do it anyway" bit that I object to. If he asks, that is him taking responsibility for finding out. I don't mind how he gets the info, I'm happy to give it, it's just the responsibility idea.
The background to this is that he has several times before said things that indicate that he would want me to do a lot of the "wife" stuff, except the sex. I have politely refused this in the past, this is just another thing in that category.
Regarding things like car insurance or anything to do with the house, I have long since sorted all that for myself, he hasn't been involved in any of it for ages.
Since I realised all this and sorted it in my mind I've felt a lot of peace, which is nice.
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OK, me again. I ended up not sending anything, realising that doing so would just be lecturing or something like that. I felt peace, that was what was most important. If and when it comes up again I have my response now.
But here's me not sure about "getting it right" again..... this time regarding informing H of my plans to take kids away for a few days over winter break.
Do I just make the plans w/o telling him, and let him find out if he asks or wants to do something with them then? Do I make the plans and send a short e-mail just letting him know?
I think what he envisions is me saying "how would you like to share the kids over the break?" or something to that effect, before making any plans, which is what just sticks in my gut. That is the "co-parenting" model that I so hate; with everyone thinking that the separation is OK. I know, I may be in the wrong here.
In the past I have pretty much just made the plans and told him; he did ask in passing a week or so ago, I said honestly then that I hadn't made specific plans yet. Well, now we've come up with an idea....
He has said that he wants to be friends, and has accused me of not wanting to. My response has been that any definition of friendship he has given has been very one-sided. So here I don't want to cave to his one-sided definition of friendship, but definitely do not want to be unreasonable.
My gut seems to be saying make the plans and send the short e-mail.... don't want to come across as being vindictive. I've started reading "The Solo Partner" and the first chapter is very hard-hitting about recognising your own role (i.e. if you are being selfish, vindictive, or whatever).... it has me going.
But am I missing a trick here?
I know this shouldn't be complicated.
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How do people navigate this relationship with their children?
What if your kids hate him/her?
What if they love him/her?
How early on should they be introduced and does it matter?
Any tips from more seasoned LBS's on coping with hearing how great or how awful LBS is from kids?
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I am dealing with this very issue myself with regards to the OW.
I have a D12 and she has met and stayed with her D while in the company of OW. Who lives with H.
I had this very discussion lastnight here. how to tell her the truth. without causing more
damage.
My D says the OW is ok, but that she deals with her because she wants to be with her D.
OW also has a S12.
very confusing! I am sure you will find many answers here. :)
Good Luck!
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Thanks Syni, my S is much younger than yours (6), so he has a bit less say in things, but after his D's suggestion he apparently expressed some enthusiasm for meeting OW. Not that S understands who she is, other than Daddy's friend who lives with him. I feel like the meeting is inevitable as H lives with OW, so will have both my kids every other weekend. I really hope that meeting her is a good idea as S is still having a v . hard time with his Dad leaving. I worry that it i too soon...
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I have very strong feelings against introducing a "friend" to my children while I am still married to their father. I have teens, who know what is going on and would not be kind to OW. H knows this and has never suggested it. (I suspect he thinks he could do damage control later and they could all be happy campers :o) Unfortunately for the kids, this cuts into the time he has for them.
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My teens also made a stand and ousted ow from the picture. And far enough away from it that she finally showed her true colors to exH that she was always jealous of them and despised them even before she ever met them. This may be true for a majority of these people the men in our lives get involved with.
OW broke every single thing regarding my life with ExH. Our marriage, our home, his mind, his finances, and his body,( I know these things were his choice)
But ow could not break his love for his children.
As for these young ones you ladies have:
I have some expriance myself regarding an OW of sorts in my fathers life although he didn't leave my mother for her, he did screw around on my mother which I never knew until I was 13. It changed how I looked at my father. Not that my mother was a saint after she left him..far from it and she abndoned me many times in my life physically and emotionally.
This OW my father was involved with was very jealous of me she acted one way to me and another way to my father. She came into my life the first time at 6 then again about 12 then again 18 then around 23 and at 23 I finally had it with her and beat the crap out of her.
At 12 when I would vist on the weekends sometimes I would wet the bed. Classic stress signal. Sometimes the symptoms of stress in small children show itelf in differnt ways. Children do not have the life experiance or coping mechanisims to process what is going on so differnt things happen to them. Technically we don;t either when it comes to this massive confusion.
I am dead set againest any children being exposed to OW during this ...whatever this is.
Now that the affair with ow is over I my exh and I finally talked and he told me if I ever thought about getting involved with someone else to please keep them away from the girls. (Duh!)
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Well, I had the convo today with my D about the OW. wasn't easy...She says she likes the OW but that
she wanted her D and I back together..( tears ) of course, holding back my own trying to explain how daddy
was confused and needed time to sort this out.
I also mentioned ( from advice here lastnight ) That what he is doing is wrong and that no matter what. You
must end a marriage before entering into another.
We had a long talk. My D still doesn't mind staying with H and OW...Ugh!
My problem now..Is I know they ( H and OW ) fight almost daily, do I really want to subject her to this? No!
I have more work to do..but this was a step.
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Well I knew ow.
My girls knew ow. In some ways that made it sooo much harder as they knew her and liked her. So there was no fear there. Confusion but no fear.
If I hadn't had known her I would have wanted to meet her first.
In Australia they give dad's so much more rights and I would have lost. Knowing what H was like at BD saying "no" would have just had him sneaking the girls out anyway.
things changed fast (well fast for mlc) in that regards. H started having tea a couple of times a week at home leaving once they were in bed.
He would bring them home early on days that he had them, most of the time. Sometimes if he was cycling heavily toward ow then he would bring them home later. When they first moved in together though i wouldn't see them till tea time or later and he would take them early.
It changed to taking the girls there later (8.30pm) as well.
And now?
3 of the girls haven't seen her since December 28th, the other two have seen her once.
I have never once put ow down. The girls were confused about still liking her and i would tell them there is nothing wrong with liking her you don't have to like what has happened.
I look back at what happened, ow is a predator, she knew all about me, knew me. She used my H as an exit affair from her turbulent marriage and I have just found out her and her H are doing the mandatory mediation needed before they divorce. She saw (maybe still does) my H as a great catch, a good provider, a great partner and fantastic dad. And he was (faults too there were faults too) but he was those things with ME and OUR family.
ow will be gone and she is nothing.
H is realising slowly ever so slowly that if she were his soul mate (becasue MAN she pushed that - overheard phones calls ugh) why is he at home with me rather than with her?
Why when she pressured him to "give" me up and put boundaries or ultimatums on him did he come home?
and he even admitted it himself that he feels ill when someone tries to stop him from coming to me? He gets sooo mad, he knows its not normal but....
It is a sticky situation and you need to be mindful of the law. try and delay as long as possible, but you know within yourself if H will try and undermine you. I tend to feel that I would like to be in control not H.
Buggy is one who was able to do the opposite to me. She is worth reading too her strength unbelievable.
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Thanks all of you, I agree that it would be better to wait, but on the otherhand my S is very curious about OW and can just imagine a refusal to let them meet be turned on me - S wanted to, D and OW were happy with it, but evil ex wife always trying to have her own way. I told S to be polite to her and let him know that I did not want to meet her because she was Daddy's friend, not mine. I will probably do what synicca suggested and let him know that no matter how nice OW is, what Daddy is doing is wrong because he is still married to me and that it is better to end a marriage BEFORE starting a new friendship with another woman. Maybe mention that Daddy is doing alot of confusing things right now, but that he still loves S and D and for now we need to be polite to Daddy's new friend.
Like SL, where I live Dad's have alot of rights, I can't dictate where he meets S and D (unless there is abuse) and so I think it is better to let the introduction go ahead - having made it clear that I have my own opinions about whether it is emotionally a wise decision for my S I will leave it up to H. In any case, I also think that the sooner OW is exposed to the reality of H's children (rather than the fantasy version of how wonderful it will be when they all spend time together - she is young and probably unprepared for the reality of temper tantrums and stinky toddler diapers) the sooner it will place strain on their "carefree", responsibility free "relationship". What do you think?
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yeah I do worry a little that now the girls don't go to ow that they are having more of a fantasy again but I would rather them home.
The other thing is that H came hom to spend more time with the girls and i am detecting frustration that he doesn't have timeto do anything on the weekends as they are at present taken up with ow. BUt throughout this past week h had been saying he wanted to do.... list of chores but he won't get there and he knows it.
so real life still cuts in with him.
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My husband was introduced his OW to my daughter as 'his friend' and they went to her parents house for cloudy lemonade. That was the last week in July 2010.
I found out completely by accident in mid August 2010 that the weekend my husband was taking our children down to London (they were staying with good friends of 'ours' you know ...like family) they would be introduced to the OW and have lunch at a museum and the following day everyone would be going to a BBQ at a house of someone I didn't know.
My husband spewed all sorts of horrid stuff when I said that the children should know the truth and the lies had to stop. I ended up sitting with my children and explained that they would be meeting someon 'who was very important to their dad' and that 'knew all about it' and that 'I wanted them to have fun and that they knew where I was'
It was the worse weekend of my life - I spent most of it in tears - my children came home fairly unconvinced about the OW and that she was a bit dull!!
I try very hard not to focus on the time they have spent with their Dad and her (she hangs around like a bad smell apparently but doesn't sleep at his flat - but I think that's the next thing) but I try to be 'normal' and not avoid the topic - I try very hard to show them that I am ok and we are ok (me, my son & my daughter) and that it's better to talk about things.
Who knows if we are doing the right thing but I knew no amount of my crying etc would change the fact that my devious, sly MLCer and 2 friends had duped me and the OW was being thrust in my childrens lives (something whcih my husband was saying wouldn't happen for years!!) - I was not going to give the stupid woman any power at all.
She is unmarried, childless and an ex of my husband's from 25 years ago (when he was 15 and had just lost his Mum - which was terribly handled by his family) and tonight I hear she is going to bake with my daughter - and I know I'll find out all about it on Monday and I am sure the experience will not be as good as the times my daughter and I share baking - well she bakes and I clean up her mess! Those with dyslexic children will understand that completely!!!! ::)
I believe that, with time, the shine will wear off having a relationship with my 2 kids who are secure and loved and bright and can talk about how they feel without fear, kids with good self esteem who can smell a bad situation when they see it and have a Mum who they know supports them through good times and bad (their lighthouse)
((hugs))
P
xx
Choose LIfe
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Wow MF what a situation. My H only left us 2 and a half months ago, yes right before Christmas, nice. S (6) first met OW this week for 2 20 minute drives and now he and his 1 year old sister are staying with them for the weekend. S seemed to like OW (I call her Lena, private joke, not her real name), which I expected from the initial meetings, but Lena (still quite young) has not had to deal with the reality of 2 young kids yet. I am hoping this weekend is a bit more of a trial by fire, although I suspect that for the next few visits (until S gets used to it) S will be on good behaviour (still shaky about his D leaving, so is scared to do anything to "drive him further away"). I am also aware that S may truly like Lena, but I don't really know if he has twigged that Daddy left us FOR her (he is only 6). As the kids will be spending regular weekends at their D's, it is probably better if S does like her, but we'll see how it goes. When he said she was nice he looked at me warily as if checking to see my response. I remained calm and I said, "good" and smiled. I don't want him to feel like his loyalties are torn between his D and me - this is not his fault and he is really too young to understand the dynamic.
As for me, I HATE it, but I know that after everything I have been through I can handle it, so I guess that is progress of sorts?
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Hey SnD,
The situation is horrid but you will grow through this trial, quite simply she will not - she is really a silly little trollop who is getting a broken man - she is not with the awesome guy that you had 2 amazing kids with is she??
You handled the first encounter well - my daughter said me that she can talk to me about Nicola as my 'smile is proper now and not all tight like before'...they don't miss a thing do they kids???? I now practice my cool, chilled and relaxed look so that I don't spook her!
When I found my first MLC site - 3 months after BD - I read the following and it hangs by my pc so I know what I need to focus my efforts on:-
It is easier to build strong children than it is to fix broken men
Powerful stuff I thought - your kids will know you have stood firm and they will take their lead from you - they know their Dad is away in La La Land (my chidlren have both commented that their Dad's eyes are dull and he is not the same as he was before when he lived at home and that he just behaves like a kid!)
Smart kids we've got eh??
((hugs))
P
xx
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Thanks MF. I have copied and pasted that sentence and will print it out to put somewhere as a reminder that my primary concern should always be my children.
My H didn't even tell me personally that OW was going to be there this weekend. His orginal plan had been that she would go back to stay at her mother's place for the first few visits as the kids got used to his new apartment and they would introduce her slowly at park visits over 6 mths or something. He seems to have completely forgotten that plan (or OW is controlling him - thinks that meeting the kids will further entrench her in his life, make her more valid or something). My 6 year old told me that Lena was going to be there (also a bit cagey when he told me) although I had suspected that was what was going on from the first meeting earlier this week.
Nevermind, my own personal joke about all of this is that my H is moving SO fast with everything he will have divorced me, married her, had a baby and divorced her by the start of 2012.
Honestly though H does seem to be in hyperdrive. Is it the hormones, the guilt, the MLC - a combination of these? I mean he says he is at the "start of a new relationship", but then do people normally move right in together, introduce children and still be married to the old relationship at the "start of a new relationship"?
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SnD,
I don't know if we'll ever understand their haste to 'prove' their relationship is real and love (and that they are 'so over' their wife). The way I see my husband is that he is a teenager and behaves with the same HUGE sense of entitlement that teenagers display when they want something and they want it....NOW!!!!!!
How many teens end up living in crummy bedsits so they can prove to their parents they are all grown up and 'free'???? My husband is that teenager in my view - the lies, the deceit, the entitlemet, not facing up to repsonsibilty etc. It is compunded by the fact that my husband lost his Mum when he was 15 and I ahve seen him act out like that teenager too. sad stuff.
The way I see it - it is good practice for when I reallt do have a teenager in the house!
Your husband didn't face up to thinsg properly and tell you with dignity - he crept around and decived you...typiacl MLC/teenager behaviour I am afraid - we are definitley seen as a 'parent' in all of this.
Try to stop rationalising the unrationable - just focus on what you can control which is YOU and your respones to the various situations you find yourself in - your kids will take their lead from you like I have said before.
Hope this helps a little bit?? I gave up a long time ago trying to work my husband and his antics out - I just leave him to crack on - he knows I love him and don't want this but slowly he is realising I am no longer sitting staring at the door praying he'll walk through it.
((hugs))
P
xx
Choose Life
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Feeling a bit crap about the other kids with OW and H playing happy families at their apartment now, so dreaming of scenarios that would really f**k up H's life for a few days. Like when he brings them home (inevitably) feeling the need to tell me how well it went, I should tape a note to the door saying, "hope the kids had fun with you, because I am going on holiday for the rest of the week, so you and OW will have to look after them". Then leave him, their jobs, their cosy irresponsible life up the proverbial creek with having to stay home to watch baby and drive S back and forth to school. THAT would be a trial by fire. Only I know that he would just call his mother to drive 2 hours to stay have her look after them and the I would be the "IRRESPONSIBLE MOTHER!!!! " Shock, horror, gasp... I should wait til his mother is out of the country to pull that one.... i do like his mum, but she enables him alot.
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My ExH is enabled by his mother also..and she lives on the same property in an apt he built.
Nice person really she is I used to love her like my own mother..but when it comes to him she does him no favors.
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SnD and ITFTLH,
I have two kids who are bright and articulate and we talk about everything - I know they think I am a bit goofy sometimes and I embarrass them but I really want them to be able to say anything at all to me and know they will not be judged for it.
The ability for them to say what they think will also work in their dad and OW situation - I am giving them the skills and confidence to say they are uncomforatble with xyz and have a reasonable discussion about things. The OW hears my children tell her how much fun I am, how happy I am, the cool things we do as a family, the places I go with my work etc. She hears how I take my kids to places and make things with them and also that I am still in touch with all of their family (wherever my husband and his OW are I cast a shadow I am afraid.....she'll never be rid of me - if their relationships lasts then I know I will have a much more successful life than them - a life which is built on respect and trust and love and not on lies and deceit (which is ther relationship isn't it!).
I am big on 'little daily reminders' and the following have got me through some tough times:-
"The best revenge is a successful life"
"My children only get one childhood."
"Love me when I least deserve it because that's when I need it most "(Martin Luther King).
My 2 chidlren spend all of their time with me (every other weekend with him) so their behaviour is a direct result of my input and influence and I will not have them feeling unable to handle things properly. It's all about their self esteem - which in my MLC husband is very poor and always has been in retropsect despite covering that up for a long, long time.
((hugs))
P
xx
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MF, again, you are right. I need to focus on making our home fun and open (I have to admit that I have been more distant than I would like with the kids since this happened, although I have tried to ensure that we do fun things and go fun places. You are also right about the successful life quote. I am trying to get a job in the field I have always wanted to work in and I feel that if that happens (in fact just getting a job) will be good for my self-esteem right now, and give me other things to focus on and new people to meet. I feel like I am in limbo right now, waiting to move, job hunting, apartment hunting. I want a successful life but I am impatient! ;D
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I have never once put ow down. The girls were confused about still liking her and i would tell them there is nothing wrong with liking her you don't have to like what has happened.
I just reread this post from SL and I agree, I must try to always be neutral about OW, and I think her idea of saying it is ok to like her and still not like the situation is good sentence to have up my sleeve...
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SnD,
There is a great book called 'The Secret' by Rhoda Byrne - google it and you'll find allsorts of stuff about about it - it's about love and building the life you dream of - fab stuff and amybe worth a £10 investment - it helped me at just the right time.
Ah pateince - yep that old chestnut - not had a lot of that until this MLC thing started - got loads of it now - all put to good sue too (well most of the time!!)
((hugs))
P
xx
Choose Life
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Yup, children and the OW again. I feel like I am in such a bind, because I HATE my little ones spending time there and I worry that all this "happy family" playing that they do will "legitimise" the affair that H continues to conduct with OW. He wants to have my baby to stay for a week at Easter (where I live I am obliged to allow this time) and now I discover that if he is not able to take all of the time off work he intends for OW to look after her (WTF???). I am glad that in a month I will be moving 2 hours away from H - he and OW will only be able to play the family stuff once every 2 weeks and during holidays. Which means that the rest of the time when H is missing the kids, he HAS to think about what he has done, what the OW represents and why his "real" family (ie the actual mother of his children and the children themselves) are now living so far from him.
Still, it doesn't make it any easier that he is exposing my children to his pathetic excuse for a R. I know I am supposed to see the OW as incidental, and perhaps if I didn't have children or they were old enough to actually hate her all by themselves I would find it easier to merely regard her as a symptom. I feel like saying to H, next time I see him, that as far as I am concerned no matter what happens with him and OW, I for one will never consider there R to be (or hopefully to "have been") legitmate. Am I fanning a fire if I do that, or am I making a clear boundary or truth dart?
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What are your children's ages? I am annoyed ...NO MAD...that your H's OW could be watching your kid all week....WHY...this is only meant to hurt..IMO...Is there any way you can get around it.
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SandD
I know how you feel, the other night while my H was here talking to our D about her hurt feelings.
I was compelled to say to him, ( may have been wrong, but who cares) I said " you and OW fight to much,
you have admitted to me more then once and to others that you two fight every other day, You can't manage
to NOT fight in FRONT of her S, How am I supposed to believe you wont in front of OURS?"
I also said, " I dont think its fair to put her in a situation that is clearly going to fail and why should she have
to even get to know this woman, if she will be leaving at some point?"
H just nodded and then said " I still think it should be up to our D" :o
I said, " Not if all you do is fight, whats the point in her going over there if your stuck in the bedroom, fighting?"
I just got frustrated and ended the convo. pointless!
I wouldnt even think of letting my D go over there if my H wasn't there, I have even refused when D has had a Monday off from
school and he wanted her to stay, but yet he still had to work. I said, This is about YOU spending time with our D, NOT the OW.
So, nope..dont even ask. Wont happen EVER!
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Hello SnD,
I am sitting here at my PC reading and working things through as my children are with their Dad this weekend (he collects them from school on a Friday and returns them to school on a MOnday morning). His OW is up north (they 'live' in London at her flat and as he is currently unemployed they return North every other weekend so that he can use her car to ferry my 2 children around to their various sports committments).
I hate the fact that she is in their little lives and that she is thrust upon them and that she ahs a relationship with my 2 kids.
I feel very strongly that if you raise the issue of his and what he does and he will see you are interferring and controlling his relationship with his children. Remember he sees things through his MLC goggles (whilst you have your relaity goggles on). You cannot control what he does with the children when they are with him. I am sure despite everything he would never put your chidlren in danger.
It is the hardest thing I have ever had to do but it has been the right thing to do ...that is.....keep my views to myself and simply say to the chidlren that 'OW is very important to your Dad' and never ever slag her off - she may end up being a permenant featre in my chidren's lives. I never ever want my children to feel any more torn than they already do by thinking they are hurting me if (gulp) they got on well with the OW and they ended up having a friendship with her. You also have to carefully consider that actually your children may end up liking this OW and you have no right at all to tell them who they can like (or not).
This is when you have to keep stepping away from him and detach - I have posted on other threads that my children are growing up with a good sense of self and they have no issue saying what they think (self esteem is high in my 2!!). I focus on building their self esteem as it will be this that will help them make good, healthy choices in the future and ensure they have a way of expressing their feelings to whoever they meet in their lives.
SnD, I know it is hard and you are hurting but you cannot control what he does with the kids and you have no right to force your belief about his relationship on him - it works the other way round too - he has no right to tell you what you do with your chidlren when you have them in your care and if your life moves on you would not welcome HIM chiming in giving his 2 cents on what he thought of someone you cared a lot about or the quality of your relationships.......
I don't mean to be harsh but when there is an OW involved our situations become triangles. I work best in straight lines so keep my husband's OW out of my relationship with him (I am dark) and my relationship with my chidlren. She's not worth my energy or focus.
((hugs)) as I know it is tough - it does get better as time goes it's job and you get aclimatised to your new 'normal'
P
xx
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Buggy - Kids are 6 and 20 mths. 6 year old can't go because of a prior commitment, but H wants the 20mth old anyway. It is his week for them, so I don't really know what I can do. I can't really refuse, but I can point out that the aim is for H to bond with her and that OW is not a qualified nanny and that if H can't be with her then maybe she should stay with me as I am her mother unless she is spending that time with her other parent, then it doesn't seem like there is any need for her to go. However, I don't want to seem petty. Or like I think OW is a threat. How do I balance these things? At times like this I have to admit my overwhelming emotion is hate and anger and detachment seems very far away...
I agree with you syn, but my H has not suggested that he is unhappy (I can see that he is unhappy much of the time, but at the moment he believes that he is only unhappy cos the kids are leaving) or that he intends to ever leave OW, except for little implications about us one day getting back together, and everything not being as easy as he had expected it would be (they only moved in together 2 mths ago and he only left me 3 mths ago) he is heavily in replay. So his take is that he and OW may be together for ever and ever and sail off into the sunset on their special fantastical sex-and-self-gratification-is-really-what-this-is-all-about-although-we-don't-know-it boat and the sooner the kids get to know her, the better. And I just don't know what to do about it, other than just let them get on with it, knowing that I am moving 2 hours away soon, and that it will make it easier to completely remove myself from H's life because I will also be closer to his parents so I don't necessarily even have to see him when he collects the kids. Stay dark that way
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My kids are older and (thankfully) have made their own decision about OW. Having had 3 kids approach 2 years old, I can say with confidence that your D will survive it. That will not be true for OW and your H. A week with a 20 month old that you do not know well!!! Hahaha. Her schedule, likes, etc will all be disrupted...left with a stranger.....She will have fits and tantrums and be none to pleasant most of the time I am sure! She will recover, but will they?
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MF, I know that you are right. I suppose I am just venting. Selfishly, I actually feel less bad about my 6 year old being there because I know in no uncertain terms that he loves me more than he will any other woman until he grows up and marries someone himself and I am confident that he had a strong and uninterruped bond with me in his preschool years (even though actually an eventual break-up between H and OW may affect him more, if he does grow to like her, so from that point of view I feel torn because I know that he could be more damaged by exposure to her in the long run) simply because, I suppose, I already resent that my H has created a situation where I have send a very much desired baby (we tried for her for a long time before getting pregnant, hence the 4 yr gap between my 2 kids) away from me for a month in the summer and for weekends and for other holiday periods, when my H knows how badly I wanted another baby. It is already a punishment without her being in the picture, but the thought of her bonding with my much wanted baby during these early years adds a whole other dimension to the hurtfulness and hatefulness of H's actions.
LGO - you are right to a point, but my D is such a good toddler (like an "angel" baby, really, rarely cries, sunshine smile all the time, very few tantrums). If it had been my son at the same age, on the other hand, I would be sending him there weekly because it would certainly have broken them up - unbelievably energetic, highly strung and very emotional ;D
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Venting is good but try hard to see that you are their Mum AND ALWAYS WILL BE!!!!! The kids will muddle their way through this and they will see you for the afbukous Mum you are - the one who was steadfast in their lives and never left them....because you are their rock.
Have faith and belief in yourself taht you will navigate these choppy waters and your relationship with your childrn will be a strong and healthy one with deep foundations of love, trust and respect.
Nif Naf once said to me that her husband will always be a 'visitor' or a 'guest' in her son's life - and it is so true. My husband left me - true but he also left his kids and despite him trying very hard to say this my children tell him - 'yes Dad you left Mum but by doing that you also left us' and he couldn't answer them or spiv his way out of it - in his addled little brain he had left me but not them.
Mad as a box of frogs are MLCers....
Stay strong and keep working on you - you've got a lot going on and you need to make sure you are healthy and focussing on the right things which are you and your chidlren. leave your husband to make his own way.
((hugs))
P
xx
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Thanks MF!!! It is funny. I said to H last time I saw him that it was his choice to leave his children and he said "I didn't leave the children, I left y...the home" He couldn't even admit that he left me - f**k wit. He left the "home", yes and the "home" was very sad about it it. In fact the inbuilt wardrobe went through a whole box of tissues just crying about it all...
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My tumble dryer was the most devastated - still in counselling. I think the white goods actually have a forum not unlike this one.
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Well, I know that my washing maching and dryer are missing some serious laundry action every since H took his many multi-coloured briefs elsewhere...
Of course, in that respect, their loss is my gain ;)
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The problem I have is exposing the children to a weak relationship only serves to confuse the children. In Synicca situation, I am concerned that h is taking his daughter into a situation where he and ow argue and fight. Since that is not her "normal" lifestyle and situation, you have the right to deny him taking her if they can not control themselves in her presence. If your daughter continues to complain about the violence, file a CPS report against your h. As a parent, he is meant to protect his child and forcing her to stay in an atmosphere of domestic violence.
Something to think about.
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Ready, I completely agree, that is one of the dilemmas that I have - exposing my S in particular to a R which I have no real idea about, but in the context of my husband being in a very bad place in his life generally. Furthermore, if the R fails and S has grown to like OW (as much as the idea irks me) he will learn to be very wary of any new people in either my H's or my life in the future and he will also learn (a second time!) that H thinks people are disposable and have a sell-by date. Bad, bad message for a young boy who really looks up to his D. This message is also so different from the one the H of old would have wanted to give to his S. Although, thank goodness, there is no violence or nastiness. I would have no qualms whatsoever about going to child services or court if I even suspected either H or his OW were creating a physically unsafe environment for my kids. Too bad there isn't legislation about emotionally damaging environments... at least not here in Europe.
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Wow, some great discussion on introducing the OP here and quite timely in my situation. My H and I have been separated physically since last May and he has recently started dating a 20 year old. In the past 3 weeks or so, it's gone from him hiding it, (although not so well), to him fully launching her into our kid's lives (a week and a half ago while I was out of town on duty travel). My S9 - struggled hard and when I got back to town and talked to him, he needed to have a sleepover at my house so he could tell me everything - he will not open up to H.
My D's birthday was while I was away and I returned the day of her B-day party. H had indicated that I was welcome to attend any part of the party I wished and I indicated that I would talk to D and see what she wanted but that conversation never happened. To make a long story short, I was at a hockey game for my kids the night of the party and when we left the rink, I saw OW get into the vehicle with D and all her friends who were going to H's for her b-day party. I lost it and later that evening, sent H a text saying that I couldn't believe that he couldn't give D just one day for her b-day without having OW there. He responded telling me that if I knew everything OW had done for our D that week and everything she bought D for her b-day I might just change my mind and that D actually invited her to the B-day party. OUCH, that hurt but I kept my cool, apologized for my reaction and left it at that.
Later on in the week, I called to speak to D only to discover that she, OW and OW's friend were at the Justin Bieber movie (of course, being only a few years apart, OW likely still likes Justin Bieber - sarcasm). That hurt too ... I felt her encroaching on my little girl and 11 year old girls have attitude these days that I never dreamed of till my teens!
This week, when the kids returned to my house, D opened up a bit and tells me that H is dating OW but has told her not to tell me. This opens the door for me to speak a bit about honesty and I explain to D that I know this is difficult for all of us and we really need to be open and honest with each other right now and support each other – no secrets. I go on to tell her that I want to be honest with her and I don't want her to feel bad about what I’m about to tell her about, but I do want to be honest that it hurt my feelings a bit that she invited OW to her b-day party and not me. D goes on to tell me that she didn't invite OW to her party, but rather that H asked if she could come and said only if it was ok with D and then went on to say after everything she has done for you this week and everything she bought you for your birthday. Wow, same line he gave me. I immediately told D not to worry, I was not upset but that it had just hurt my feelings a little but I was over it. Although I thought to myself it was a very unfair manipulation that H used on his D, it was not my place to say it. I just told D that I thought H was having a very difficult time right now trying to find happiness and that he wasn’t making the best decisions because of that. I wanted to scream, I wanted to pick up the phone and say to him, how dare you manipulate your D to suit your little fantasy but I didn’t.
I was writing a response to another board about this situation on my computer and left it halfway done and the next day, D found it and sent it to H on facebook. I was furious at first but when I reflected on the situation, I realized that he now knows that I know he lied and yet I didn’t confront him on the subject. He also knows I didn’t say anything bad to D about him regarding the situation and now, he has nothing but his thoughts to try to wrap his head around because he knows I know. I’m sure he’s waiting for a shoe to drop, but it’s not going to happen. I’ve cleared the air with D and that’s all I care about.
Sorry this is so long but I've been dying to get it on paper. I guess, at the end of the day, I'm just looking at what I can and can not control. What I see here is H & OW self destructing on the path of forcing a relationship between her and the kids. I see a couple of teenagers wanting something so bad that they don't care who they hurt in the process of getting what they want. I will be here to pick up the pieces for my kids.
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When I joined the forum back in September the first questions I asked were mainly to do with my children, teenagers & young adults, and how to handle h. insisting that they accepted OW into their lives. Amongst the advice provided to me were posts from LBS' who themselves had been exposed to similar situations as they were growing up. The hurt and pain of feeling that they had no say and had not been protected from, in some cases, destructive relationships was still there many years later.
I also saw with my h. that what he was trying to do was make himself feel better, and very quickly the children realised this themselves. Plus being older they realise that OW is not someone they want in their lives.
Having older children brings its own challenges in this situation; however, I can't help thinking that in the case of younger children we, as the most stable parent, should be prepared to speak out if we are not comfortable with arrangements being made for our children. There is a difference between Accepting something that we cannot change / influence and finding something Acceptable.
S&D, your children are very young, you are their mother and they need someone to think and act sensibly here. Why on earth should a stranger, and to you & your children OW is a stranger, look after your children. I know we have to pick our battles carefully; however, I think this is one worth fighting for.
The other thing is I very much doubt the father of your children would find it Acceptable if you were to leave his children with a new man in your life for large chunks of time. And neither would you.
Even though mine are older I made it clear to my husband that I did not agree with what he was doing and did not find it acceptable. And I had a right to my view. I also asked him to put the interests of the children first and thankfully, the fog seemed to lift enough for him to see this himself. I kind of think that if I hadn't spoken out he would not have really thought about this himself. As for this being controlling when it comes to our children the advice I received here was simple. We need to be Mamma Bear and look out for them as the MLCer is, in most cases, not able to do this.
Just my view in what I know is a minefield and probably the hardest part of all this nonsense.
CrazyStuff
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CS, I agree in principle, but my biggest dilemma is that H is living with OW and I am legally obliged to let the chidren go to their D. I know that if I say that OW is not to look after them while they are there, he will simply go behind my back and do it anyway and feel justified lying about it (and MLCer's don't usually need a justification for lying) - I may make a comment to him about OW "babysitting" to make it clear that I do not regard her as a valid member of the family. I would rather know exactly what is going on (especially as the youngest one can't tell me) and react to it and protect the kids as much as I can in the circumstances (I mean, I have no intention of introducing another man into their lives anytime soon - I have no MLC "rush everything" compulsions and I don't want a R with anyone right now - not even H as he is such a jerk) than create a situation where I have no idea what H is doing with the kids while they are there.
Maybe I should tell H I am going away next weekend, but not to worry as the kids are staying with my new boyfriend and when he panics say "no, not really, but you didn't much like the idea did you?" hehehe. I know, that would be game playing, but it is tempting!!!
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S&D,
Thanks for the clarification on the legal situation. I didn't have that to deal with and my kids are older, and I can only imagine how hard this must be for you.
One thing though - initially my h. was hell bent on 'making' the children accept OW and there is currently no contact with the oldest because of what he did; however, when I asked him directly if he thought what he was trying to do was really the right thing for them he actually did stop and think. At the time he said to me 'I am their father and I know what is right for them'. I even said to him so if I go and pick up some loser on the street and introduce him to the children you will be o.k. with it. It was clear from his expression he never considered this and thought I was being absurd.
Nevertheless he seemed to reconsider although without really saying why except that he was making sacrifices himself for our children!
I am sure he hasn't completely given up thinking that with time our children will be happy with everything; however, for now he has backed off on this.
Is there any way you can have such a conversation with your h.? Not about what he may want, not about what you may want but what is best for the children. He might just surprise you. Maybe you can offer to bring the kids to him when he is off work or move around some of the planned days to suit his schedule better.
In the end you are right though the important thing is to know that your children are safe and being well cared for, and you seem to be handling this well.
When are you moving to the City?
CrazyStuff
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I am having to make some tough decisions and wanted a better spectrum to look at :)
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Lost?Notanymore!,
I've voted but I am not in the States and the child support I receive from H is not legally binding, its just what he has offered & does send. Hope this helps!
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My situation is pretty much the same as HA.
We do not have any legally binding child support or agreement for support from my H.
We have two 17 year olds and, legally, he would be responsible for paying child support until they finish high school (next June).
Also, we own a home and I believe he would be responsible for paying some of the house payment, until we sell it and split the equity. (at this point - none of this is agreed to or happening).
L
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Child support does vary, but it depends on many factors. The incomes of both parties, the time spent with the children, and medical expenses and so forth. Remember joint custody does not mean 50/50 on everything. All states have formulas and if you google it, you can actually download the form for the different states.
Also the support is until they turn 18 or graduate from high school, which ever happens last. That is to keep parents from kicking 17 year olds out as soon as they graduated or 18 years olds out before they graduated from school.
Spousal support is very complicated and depends on many factors. Time married, incomes earned, expenses incurred, and other factors. In my situation, I would owe my wife lifetime support until she remarried but the amount of debt she would carry would probably offset anything.
But my w would leave and take nothing.
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One thing I want to mention again is that every state is different. Several have mentioned age 18. In some states that will be 21 IF the child is in college or pursuing some further education.
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Lost,
Some states it's 25% for one child; 35% for two.
When we lived in Washington State when the kids were younger, the ex had to pay for their college too.
Do a google search, and best of luck to you. Please make sure you do a garnishment, that way he can't torment you with payments.
Tsunami
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Okay
So I don't know what this calculator is but it was pretty much spot on for my child and spousal so try it because it calculates both....and PA has some kind of regulations where if the custodial parent lives in the marital residence and the MORTGAGE exceeds 25% of the custodial parents income then the non-custodial parent must pay 50% of the difference. This added an extra $300 to my child support amount AND they have to pay a percentage of child care equal to the percentage of your total parental income. So if he makes 55% of the total amount of yours and his combined then he has to pay 55% of childcare. Hope this makes sense as I'm rushing a little but PM me if you have any questions. Below is the link to the online calculator
http://www.pennglazier.com/support2010/support.html
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Hi all.
How many of us have kids with special needs?
S18 has ADHD.
Maybe another piece of the puzzle?
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My S15 have ADHD.....only child syndrome, very oppositional defiant. My H is not his biological father.....I know in my heart dealing with a mouthy, run the show teenager has played a part in the sitch....but my H will not admit to it....and I do not want my S to feel it is in any part his fault....but my heart knows it does.....I have decided to not even attempt to get into another R until my son goes off to college. It is just to darn hard on someone else to handle. Hard for me at times....so I can only imagine if it is not your own child.
Just saying....
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My S11 is autistic. The divorce rate of couples with special needs children is 80%! Our S is a 24/7 job and we rarely took time for ourselves - a big factor in my H's MLC!
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Sorry to break the trend. Our two teenagers are unbelievable human beings and stellar students, musicians, debaters who love the Lord. They are responsible, independent, and highly motivated. They are reaching for the stars and deserve a father who supports their dreams instead of the father they have who is so selfish that he doesn't even realize how lucky he is to be their father.
Now, my H has been diagnosed with psychosis (when D19 was not even 2) and shows SEVERAL signs of ADHD, bipolar disorder, and definitely obsessive/compulsive disorder. So, it is my H who has special needs.
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I just noticed it seems like another thing that was statistically higher then the average.
I'm the same guy that noticed that the husbands being younger than their wives was
stat quite a bit higher here than the average too.
Just interesting, could be nothing? Could be a puzzle piece?
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Well I have Bipolar/gender confused S23 and Auditory Processing Disorder S20. D27 claims she has ADHD and has started taking meds at law school. My H once said he'd like to punch people who talk about how successful and well their kids are doing. So I think this is a contributing factor to his issues. Also the fact the 3 boys live at home at their ages isn't helping. So runaway H and leave me here with the mess.
I was a SAHM until the youngest was 11. I should have gone to work the whole time and put them in daycare. Then I could have had guilt about that too.
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I just read a new thread with advice on telling a son about depression and how people act and do things that are uncharacteristic. My biggest struggle in all of this has been communicating with and about my kids.
I tried telling my kids that I thought their Dad was in a bad place, but of course, he thinks he is fine and the only reason our kids are having any difficulty with all of this is because I can't just get over it and realize everything is better now. He says that I "killed him, slowly and painfully," that I was no fun, that we never had anything in common, etc. My kids have told me lots of things that I think he should know, but when I reveal anything to him, he uses it against me. Then, he wants to discuss what to do about our eighth grader that is failing ALL his classes. But he doesn't believe anything I say, and then he paints a picture to everyone that I won't work with him or communicate to help our kids.
Does anyone else deal with this and how do you do it? It makes me crazy. The same goes for his family, none of whom has even contacted me since this all happened. I have no idea what he told them, but none of them want anything to do with me. And that's hard for the kids, too. I never had a great relationship with my MIL, but I didn't really expect to be totally exiled... Thoughts?
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Hi
Shortly after my H left, our 2Ds the oldest especially had a really hard time dealing with it. She failed all her mock exams and said she had so much stuff in her head she had no room for her studies. I spoke to her teachers and they were very supportive and arranged for both girls to see the school counsellor.
I asked H if he thought they were dealing with the situation and he said that 'they would adapt and get over it like all kids do'!!. He was so shocked and upset when I told him that in reality they were NOT dealing with it at all and that I had been to school because they were struggling. Twelve months later and he still is oblivious to most of the problems they have. He has never volunteered to help with any homework, choosing instead to be 'mates' with them and just wanting to watch TV or play swingball. He doesn't feel guilt at no longer being the responsible parent he always used to be.
My H has never discussed any of his MLC behaviour with his family. They are all very supportive towards me and our girls and everything they know they have learnt from me. They tell me they no longer recognise him, he has changed so much.
If it is any consolation, my H also told me that we had nothing in common, he had been bored for years and we never had a conversation. Yet it is now 18months since he left and he doesn't want a divorce and still pays all the bills. If things had been so bad you think he would have been glad to sever all ties and start again with his perfect OW.
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Thanks, your H sounds a little different from mine. Mine was not at all interested in paying the bills, at first. And mine has not checked out of our kids' lives. In some ways he has become super dad, talking to the teachers all the time, and pretending to be the dedicated academic parent--but he has checked out emotionally, if he was ever clued in, I am not sure, that was pretty much my role.
So we have him, who seems to be this caring, involved parent, me who doesn't really want to have all the teachers involved in this weird drama--I don't want to say bad things about him, really, but if I contradict him every day, that makes one of us look crazy, and professionally, he is an educator, so I am afraid I am the one that looks like the pitiful victim, making my kids victims...
My S14's therapist is starting to see it. I hadn't realized that H had met with her several times to tell her "his story" which included how much better this situation would be for our kids and how unhappy and dysfunctional our family was. When I finally told her about some of the things S was doing and I came in for a few sessions, she realized that S's perception was a lot closer to mine than H's.
All I know is this is all crazy-making.
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I am very curious on this one, as every time my H is confronted with it, it is basically the same response...
He blames everything on his job...mostly cause that is where he is most of the time...on the road...
Then will say to me a little later...we have to tell them... UGH!
Just had this come up again yesterday, and I have said from the get go, that I will not be the one to tell them anything...Im not doing his dirty work...
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My BD was on 2/25/11 and it was done with a 10 minute phone call. To this day, my H has never told our son anything. :'(
Never told our S he wasn't coming home again so I had to do it when S started asking me, "Mom, where is Dad?" It was
heartbreaking to say the least.
NB
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we tried to keep it from our D13 right after BD, but since my H and hiw OW proclaimed their love for
eachother on his FB, my D figured it out on her own....(they were friends) :o >:( :o >:( :o
but, that was just the PA....My H sat our d down later (about 2 months) and told her he was in love with
another woman and that he didnt love me anymore and wanted to be happy.. >:( >:( >:(
Then said that it was better that we didnt stay together because "WE" didnt love eachother anymore. :o :o
all the while still telling ME that he loved me....go figure!! My d formed her own opinion after realising her daddy
was a nutt job!
I actually sat her down by myself and explained that daddy wasnt well, and that he had some issues to work out.
to not believe anything he said unless she asked me first....She eventually disliked OW and refused to visit H
while they were living together.
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My husband travels for business as well.... the kids were used to him being gone, but not on the weekends, LOL!! MLCers always seem to want to "tell the kids", especially if you are not solidly in their corner.... sometimes they use it against you, if you try and set a boundary of "maybe I won't want to be with you, you lying, cheating, basta**!" and sometimes, I think they just use it for dramatic purposes and as a bellweather to see where you are at as far as jettisoning them forever, hahha!
I told the kids, in a very lengthy and serious conversation, that Dad was "working through some things" and needed some time apart to "think about stuff" and my 10 year old daughter piped up and said "Oh, is he depressed?" :o so that is how I explain it, especially since it is true. I explain DEPRESSION as debilitating, and irrational.... since it really is.
I did use the term midlife crisis with my teenage son, but with my daughter, it is depression. Her therapist also explained to her that DEPRESSED PEOPLE cannot care properly for others..... they are very selfish in their behaviors. This seems to help, even though it still makes her sad. At least they understand, to a degree, that Dad is not a bad person, and that he can't help it. They also understand that we have to live our lives, and we're sad he's not in it much, but it's because he's depressed.
I do not say "Dad isn't here because he chose to spend Christmas with a F'ing ow and her daughter cuz he's a worthless piece of sh**" even though I have moments where that is the overwhelming feeling... it's not true. I simply say "Dad should be here. I can't believe he's not here. It's not right that he's not here..... but he is depressed, and depressed people do terrible things and don't understand the consequences... I'm sorry."
I also tell my kids that if Dad ever puts them in ANY situation (meeting OW on the sly) that makes them uncomfortable, that they can slip away and call me and I will come get them. They need to know that they can go with Dad, but if it's dicey, they don't have to stay. Good luck.
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I have been telling S9 and S7 similar stuff to LG. S9 said it made him feel better to understand this. They can't stand OW and wish dad would stop having her with him when he spends time with them but I think knowing about depression has taken the bad feelings that it was their fault away.
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"Dad isn't here because he chose to spend Christmas with a F'ing ow and her daughter cuz he's a worthless piece of sh**"
LG, I can't tell you how many times my inner dialogue and the words that come out of my mouth to the children bear absolutely no relation to each other. ;)
My kids are younger, S 6 d2. H has told S that he "is never coming back", I guess it is better that S does not live in hope as there is every chance that it will pan out that way. But is was an example of a total failure on H's part to put S's emotional needs first. In fact, I think that he was using S as a way to "hurt" me, so that he would report back what Daddy said (which he did).
Personally, at the time I just told S that Daddy did not love Mummy like a wife, but more as a friend. Of course OW was shuved in S's face within a month of them moving in together, too and I was left with a lot of questions about how to deal with this with a young boy with some very big feelings. H was certainly a steam engine if nothing else. Eventually, S asked a very specific question (can't quite remember the whole convo now) but I told him that they way that D left was not really the "right" way to leave a relationship. S told me that he didnt think it was very nice of Daddy and I told him, no, but people make mistakes. I have not really figured out the best way to deal with this with a 6 year old tbh. Because there is the possibility that H will never want to come back or that by the time he does I will not want him back. I don't want to create false hope, but I also don't want S to believe that his D's behaviour is an acceptable way to treat another person, under ANY circumstances. And sons will look up to their fathers. No matter how misguided that is. Sigh...
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Love Being and others :) My H told my Ds 8 and 10 at the time that he got his own place and met someone before I knew!!! Valentine's Day he didn't come home. I kept asking the ds "where's Dad?"
Finally they told me. How sick is that? They get Bomb Drop and have to relay it to me? Now the ds say " Oh dad is in that stupid tunnel. trying to find happiness. The wrong way." They always knew he marched to the beat of a different drummer. Now they are convinced. We all miss him. We all pray for his waking up and returning. But me and the Ds know we'll be fine if he decides not to. :)
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Good grief MB :o Telling the kids that before you :o ???
I didn't think that was in the script! It is the spouse they are supposed to drop the bomb on. That must have been very hard for your kids to hear that first and then have to tell mum. My S9 dreamt about the tunnel! and S7 dreamt about a boat. at the end only OW is on it and it blows up :) :) :)
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Still Praying My H has been acting like a teenager for years. Only now can I put two and two together. I knew he needed a wake up call but this is ridiculous. Thank God God has a good sense of humor. I can't wait to see this play itself out.
Fun House Mirror is distorting their view of each other. Hopefully.
I only found out post BD that H had been interogating D10 down the basement for weeks " I don't think Mommy loves me" and "Do you stop anywhere on the way to Sunday Dinner at my best girlfriend's house?"
I thought mommy would have thrown a celebration party after I left :o :o :o
He can't talk to me???? He has to ask a 10 year old. Oh aw geez. That is wrong. Nothing we can do they are crazed and on the run!
My best friend acts like I can tell him what to do and how to act around the Ds. I have stopped calling her so much. She doesn't get it. She gets it a little. Really expects him to act normal with Ds. Good Luck. He's having a crisis. All rules out the window. :o :o :o :o
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I know what you mean MB. Mine has been acting a touch 'juvenile' for years also. It's only now I see all those 'red flags' for what they were.
As mine is a drummer, I hope he is not the one leading the MLC march! ::) ::)
I do remember mine asking me if I thought Hugh Jackman was the ideal man (or something to that effect). I replied I thought he was pretty good and I remember H just sort of mumbling or ho humming. I thought it was an odd question at the time but now I can see he probably didn't think I thought much of him. Even when I did pay a compliment during the weeks before he left, he just ignored it. ???
It's amazing how mature our kids are through all this nutso stuff. Their attitude and understanding amazes me!
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Hello
My husband had this conversation with our son one week after BD: "Mom and Dad are separating, Dad will move to another place. Don't know where yet, but I'll find us an appartment where you can come on weekends and holidays. I will show you the world and show you everything there is to know. When you grow older, I will try to explain my motivations".
We are now 29 months after BD: H still has no place where he can take our S, our S never saw the world or did learn anything from his father. Fact is that my H spent about 10 hours with his S over the past year!!!!
Here are some excuses of Dad: work, work, work and S doesn't want to see me.
Last conversation they had together was in March 2011: there is no OW!
What must S think: why did he leave then?
Crazy!
Poussin
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Poussin
Given MLCer's have low self esteem, do you think they may feel they are not worthy enough to have children?
The only thing then is that they forget that their children ARE worthy of having the attention of BOTH parents and they are denying them that.
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My kids are older....21, 17, 17
I've told them about MLC, depression.
We rarely discuss it anymore.
When their Dad does something crazy....I just say that he is lost.
L
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Stillpraying
I think my H tells himself it will be better, less confusing, less unstable…if he is not in his sons life. He must feel guilty over the abandonment. He probably feels his son doesn't want to see him. But often S does want to see him.
Poussin
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My H told the girls (both aged 12 at the time) that Mum & Dad aren't getting on very well, so I am going to live at Gran's for a while. Then he left, and they said ... can the dogs come in now? ... as he didn't like having the dogs in!! I told them about his OW as I decided to tell my friends and I knew they would find out or hear about it somehow, so I needed to tell them, before they heard it from someone else.
Now they know he is a bit crazy at times, they know he is sad and they know there's something wrong with him, and they feel he doesn't know how to love them ... they don't really want to spend time with him or talk to him. He doesn't know how to love anyone, and is very selfish and self-centred. MLC in the long dark tunnel, and the girls deal with it all better than he does.
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Depression is debilitating. They can not EMOTIONALLY handle being with the kids for a multitude of reasons.... some being they don't feel WORTHY as they are so GUILTY. My husband CONFIRMED this feeling of not being able to emotionally BE with the kids for a long time after BD. Give it time and explain DEPRESSION to your kids.
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Hello, I am new here. I am 32 H is 35. We have been together 13 years, married for 7. I have an 18 yo step-son who does not live with us and a 3 yo daughter. My H says this MLC has been going on for about 5 years now but it has only brought problems to us for about a year. He started spending a lot of time with his new female "friend" about a year ago which caused many arguments. This spring he started to really withdraw from me and our family. He started sleeping in the guest room because he said it was too hot but when that changed, he stayed there. He started working late or doing whatever he could to not come home until after we were asleep. He refused to tell me what was going on. He started putting this OW and her children ahead of his own family on a regular basis. That of course sparked a lot of fights. Eventually he told me he hates being at home. The thought of even being here gives him so much anxiety he can't stand it. He says I focus on the OW but that is just a small piece of what is going on. He said he feels lost. Then I noticed a bracelet the OW gave him was engraved. I thought that was really strange and started another discussion about that. That is when the BD happened. He told me there was not a PA but that he had feelings for her. He knows he is not acting like he should and he doesn't understand why something that feels so right to him would be wrong to everyone else. He is not like a lot of the stories I am readying though. He is being very nice to me and saying I am a great wife, he couldn't ask for better and a great Mom. He was also open enough to say he hasn't told OW about his feelings because he is afraid of being rejected by her. It is like he is using me as a friend to discuss how much he wants this OW. On that topic, he mows her lawn, hauls her trash, fixes anything at her house that needs fixed, helps with her kids, attends all her kids sporting events (which in the past he told me he hated). Goes to her kids parent teach conferences, talks to her X about child support. She is 47. I think she knows whats going on. He says he just feels lost and he doesn't know how to fix it. He mentioned dying and thinks that he could be doing more with his life. He even mentioned the words MLC and that is what made me start researching it.
On to my question. I have been thinking about GAL. I just don't know how to do that with a 3yo. Also he has abandoned her and his own son. His son was here this summer and was totally shocked at how involved he was with those other kids but wouldn't even come home once the entire time he was here to spend time with him. I understand how he could leave me. I don't understand how he could leave his kids. My daughter cries every night saying she misses her Daddy and she wants to know why he isn't home. He won't answer the phone when we call if it is after business hours. What am I suppose to tell her? I have always been big on telling her the truth but now I don't know what to do. I feel like he is going to change the person she could have been.
Also in your personal opinion, does this sound like MLC? Or just a selfish jerk that wants another women but is keeping me on the line until he can get things worked out with her? I don't want to waste anyone's time if I have misdiagnosed him :-[
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I am also a big encourager of telling children the truth, because if you do not, they will blame themselves and come up with MUCH worse. However, since she is only 3yo, you would need to tell her in an age-appropriate way. Remember, she does not have all the tools to cope and understand that you do! ;) So in my humble opinion, if she specifically asks (like "Where is Daddy? Why doesn't he live here anymore?") I would reply something like "Well sweetie, your daddy is at his apartment right now because I believe mommies and daddies should only love each other, and I think Daddy may disagree. So right now, I miss him and I'm waiting for him. Do you miss him too? Want to wait for him together?" This teaches her what YOU believe is right and wrong without necessarily speaking for your H; it tells her how you feel and what you're doing, and then gives her a chance to say what SHE feels and what SHE wants to do.
I get it--she's only three--but this gives her a place where she is safe to express her fears and feelings, and that's pretty healthy, even at three. And just to be clear, this is my own personal opinion and may not necessarily be anyone else's! LOL
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It sounds like he could be cake-eating.
I definitely think that you should GAL. Maybe on meetup.com there would be some folks around your local area that also have young children and are involved in activities which keep everybody entertained? But yeah, you're right on target, you've got to get your H to see you are NOT just going to sit around and wait for him while he woos another lady.
I do not know for sure if this is MLC, has there ever been any infidelity on his part in the past, whether it was with you or some previous relationship? He does sound like a jerk, but the MLC fog can take the kindest, most honorable people and turn them into a self-centered egomaniac who can't be bothered to consider feelings of their spouses, or kids.
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If he's not trying to maintain a relationship with you he's not cake eating.
Ummm others on here have said their partners have said the same and Dearheart has also said similar altho when monster comes out to play...
Don't think you've misdiagnosed him at all.
Tell your daughter Daddy feels bad inside at the moment and he's very sad. He still loves you but right now he's so sad inside he doesn't know how to show it. Tell her it's all right to miss him and when he starts feeling happy again you will see.
If she asks when just reply honestly that you don't know but let's do some things
To help make us happy.
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And just to point out you can gal with a 3 yo. I have 5 children not much money and can still do things.
I look at my council and newspaper and find free things to do with my children. I have never been one to go out much so most of my gal was to do with kids.
My gal includes starting to write again, craft, changing jobs (I know different for you) doing things I like. I have no family here to assist but I organise picnics in parks with packed lunch, going to markets and giving thengirls a couple of dollars each.
Fun things for US is also galing. Let him turn up to an empty house. I do and my H is the ultimate Clinging Boomerang who I allow to cake eat. Just me not advised for newbies. Get strong and find things you like to do. Some start gardening others redecorate their house others get a pet. The list is endless the point of gal doesn mean going out all the time GAL is to find you and what you like. If you're a homebody that's fine as long as you're happy being a homebody. GAL is about the life you would like and yes we know that includes your H but he's not present at the moment so pretend he's off overseas and you have a boarder in your house what do you want to do?
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Welcome to the best place to be at the worst time in your life. GALing can be done, but it just takes more planning than if you have older kids. I don't know if the organization Parents Without Partners still exists, but that could be a starting place for you.
Just remember that the stronger you appear, the better your D will be. Not an easy task. My kids are all young adults over 21yrs and the stronger and more self sufficient I got, the more they calmed down.
I would tell him that talking about OW to you is a taboo subject and you don't want to hear anymore. He is on the Mothership now. If you can go No Contact, since he doesn't seem to want to interact with the kids, it will be more beneficial to you not to have him flaunting OW in your face.
Just keep posting. This place is a Godsend. Also, look at Affaircare's website. Affaircare. com. It's has a lot of good info on how to deal with someone in an affair. The articles on the main site here need to be read more than once since they will mean different things at different times.
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Welcome to the board.
You are in a good place.
Your H is on his own journey.
You can not do anything to control this trip.
Come here and read or vent, we will listen.
Give your H space, he needs to heal himself.
I would not ask him anything unless you can have no expectations.
Sometimes asking them questions will be thought of as pressure.
You do not want to do anything that can be thought of by your WH as controlling or pressure.
Your need to start working on you.
There is nothing that you can do to help your H.
He has given you a gift.
It is time!!
Use the time wisely to make yourself a better person.
Look in the mirror to see what it is that you can improve.
GAL.
Read some books on depression. Both for yourself! And for H.
Believe none of what he says and 50% of what he does.
Read the resources from this site.
The links that are in my signature.
Detach. - The single most important thing you can do
The detach link and HB's 6 stages of MLC located in the resources above.
Also there is a livestrong detach link that you can google or I will give you if you can not find it.
Keep posting and asking questions and we will try to answer them.
Knowledge is power
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Hi Anj,
Some of the things my (soon to be) 3yr old daughter and I enjoy are:
Play group *
Mainly Music*
Play dough (at home)
Drawing (at home)
Going to the park
Going shopping! (and having a milk shake at the shops)
*In Australia you can ontact your local community or maternal health centre, to find out about these local activities or others on the agenda.
Another thing I did with the bioys was swimming lessons.
My daughter is in childcare 2 days a week as I work 3 days. On the other day she is with her dad.
We have been using mediation to develop a parenting plan. So she also sees him on Sunday afternoons with her 3 older brothers (5,7,&9).
She cries when he leaves and this is getting louder and longer each time. I let her cry and get it out. I validate her feelings and give her a hug and remind her she'll see dad again on such and such day. (He takes kids to and from school / day care on 2 other days when I work)
The kids have also been through counselling / Play therapy. That gave me a good insight into how she was coping and what I could do to help her.
Hope this gives you some ideas.
HUGS,
SP
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Thank you so much for all the replies. It feels good to know I am not alone.
I do need to go read the survivors guide again. It was really helpful the first time and I am so glad I found this site!
I have learned my attitude really effects my daughter. When I act like everything is fine, so does she. This weekend she ask why H wasn't home. I just told her he is sick. That made sense to her.
Also thanks for the GAL comments. I realized I have a life. So that is good :) I was thinking I needed to do something sort of extreme to show H I was having fun without him or that I am an interesting person. I have to remember it isn't about him, it's about me.
Next step, detach. I have to read more about that because I am not sure how to accomplish that when it is the opposite of what I want to be doing. It is still so hard to not want to do stuff for him, try to make him happy.
Also I have to remember not to want to rush the process.
Thanks again!
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Having difficulty with loss of father or dad in my 3 adult kids lives. Encouraged XH to go see Courageous. He went alone and said it was powerful and causing him to do heavy soul searching. But this is nothing new, he has pacified me many many times with these types of sentiments with no change. He still lives with AP and her adult daughter while he has no relationship with his own kids. They hold him to the high standards he lived before his A. I have come to terms with loss of husband but just can't resolve the idea my kids will continue to use other family members as a substitute father. How long will they be totally estranged? My son married a year ago and his father was a guest only at the wedding. He now says he won't have his father in his life when he has his kids in the very near future. Just struggling daily with this as I have the best example of a father and want the same for my kids.....he was that man before his A.
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There's nothing you can do about that, unfortunately. The only thing you can do by getting involved is make everyone else unhappy.
Your H is a grown man and is responsible for his relationship with his kids, and vice-versa.
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nlove - I am so sorry that this has been going on for so long.
I agree with SS, there is absolutely nothing that you can do. Drop the rope and let go. I completely understand how painful this lack of connection is between your xH and your kids. It's bizarre, it's hurtful and it makes absolutely no sense.
There is NOTHING that you can do to fix this situation.
Your job is to ACCEPT that this is your H's decision, and it is his 'bed to lie in'. (I understand how it's not fair on your kids, but all you can do is make sure that they have a wonderful mother in their lives)
Big hug
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nlove
Your adult children have set their boundaries for their father and unfortunately as the others have said you have to let go. They will sort this out for themselves you can't fix it for them.
Hopefully one day their father will wake up and try and rebuild the bridges to new relationships. At the moment this estrangement from his children are your H consequences for his bad choices.
xx
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my adult children have absolutely no relationship with their father
my daughter told him in 2008, it would be better if he had died than put our family through what he did.
perhaps with more time things will change, but so far he is still pretty messed up.
I too wonder many times what happened to that wonderful man and father, and would like him to reappear again.
xh married his younger ow and she has a young son, so I doubt he will be waking up
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This is my greatest fear for my h. Not only will he be unable to truly have the relationship with his me but also with his children. And also with any future family-in-laws but grandchildren and extended family. Right now he doesn't know but some are questioning his judgment. I mean who abandons their children no matter their age? A vanisher. I wanted for my h, a relationship that he apparently didn't have with his own parents - close and loving. There were many children in my h family and suspect that h didn't get much attention in the long run. H somehow thinks he has a better relationship with each of them now. H speaks to them every few days for a few minutes catching up on their activities. So very strange.
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Okay so 2 days ago I get BD #2. I found a poem he wrote to OW about their special night. I called him and just said, I know you are now sleeping with her, admit it. He did. We had a long talk. He is moving out. He had admitted to the emotional affair about a month ago.
The odd thing is he is very aware of what is going on with him. He says how he can't give her up yet. He points out other flaws he has had such as verbally abusing me. He says when he comes through this he thinks he will be a much better husband and the man I deserve. He thinks he will be begging for me back at some point and he hopes it is not too late.
He told me how sorry OW is. We know each other, not close friends but casual friends. Her husband cheated on her twice and eventually left for good. She had young children at the time. To me I am so hurt by her as well because she knew what this would do to me having lived it herself. She is 15 years older then I am so it is not like she is 23 with no life experience. Also for the 9 years I have known her, she has been like the victim to all our mutual friends. Poor OW... So my questions...
First off I want to ruin her worse then I want to hurt my own Husband. I want everyone that she knows to know what she has done. I can do it too. Should I? Or is there a greater chance I will regret it later? Will I just push my husband further away if I do something to tarnish her reputation?
Secondly I am confused on who I should tell. Do I try to protect my husband from the backlash of the community? I have only told 2 close friends and I actually feel like I am betraying him for telling.
And my last question. I could be wrong but I honestly think I could talk to OW and get her to stay far away from my husband. Part of me wants to do that. I feel like if he doesn't have her and he doesn't have me, maybe he will come out of the fog faster. The other part of me says I should just let it play out. Like if I am the driving force it will just be a huge setback and I will be in store for OW #2.
I just don't feel like I am very enlightened yet. It feels more like being a wimp then standing. I want my husband back, I want to stay married. But I feel like that makes me weak. Why would I still want him after what he has put me through this last year? Now I am the one waiting for him to want me... It should be the other way around, but I am just here saying I don't care what you did, want me, love me. Feels very pathetic. (that was just a vent, I don't expect anyone to answer that)
Thank you for any advice!
Merged this thread in with first posts.
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First off I want to ruin her worse then I want to hurt my own Husband. I want everyone that she knows to know what she has done. I can do it too. Should I? Or is there a greater chance I will regret it later? Will I just push my husband further away if I do something to tarnish her reputation?
It's not about pushing your husband away, it's about being a decent human being. She will probably end up being ditched by your husband at some point. Although attacking her will make her a sympathetic person in his eyes; the only strength she has is what you give her.
Secondly I am confused on who I should tell. Do I try to protect my husband from the backlash of the community? I have only told 2 close friends and I actually feel like I am betraying him for telling.
The more people you tell, the more difficult you will make it for him and you. People will naturally wonder "If this guy is such a dog, why are you putting up with it?" Telling family -- yours or his -- will put pressure on them to "take sides", and can complicate future reconciliation.
And my last question. I could be wrong but I honestly think I could talk to OW and get her to stay far away from my husband. Part of me wants to do that. I feel like if he doesn't have her and he doesn't have me, maybe he will come out of the fog faster. The other part of me says I should just let it play out. Like if I am the driving force it will just be a huge setback and I will be in store for OW #2.
DO NOT CONTACT HER. It is not worth the effort. Even if you are right and she does back off, he could get angry at you for meddling and trying to control him (and rightly so), and it doesn't prevent him for looking for "happiness" elsewhere.
I just don't feel like I am very enlightened yet. It feels more like being a wimp then standing. I want my husband back, I want to stay married. But I feel like that makes me weak. Why would I still want him after what he has put me through this last year? Now I am the one waiting for him to want me...
The difference between Standing and being a doormat is setting and enforcing boundaries. You can learn detachment and to forgive him for what he's done without condoning his actions or allowing him to flaunt the affair in your face.
If he chooses to be with her right now, then going dark or initiating No Contact might be a good plan. He doesn't get to have the both of you. If he's already saying that he thinks he may be back, that's just a sign of how fragile their "relationship" is. If he wants to come back, you should consider requiring him to do counseling -- both marriage and individual -- before you let him back in. (And be prepared for him to reject that and run again; it'd be part of the cycle.)
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Thank you for the reply SS!
One thing kind of shocked me though. Do you mean to tell me in many situations people are not telling their own families? I thought we would obviously tell our families. Seems like I would be living a lie to pretend like it is all fine. He is moving out. Although we have talked about when we tell our families we will do it as a united front and say we both hope in the end we end up together. I am hoping that way the only side they will take is the side of our marriage surviving.
I am interested to hear how others handle family and close family friends.
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I'm not saying don't tell your family, but be careful what you tell them. If he is moving out, then they should probably know that, especially if they come visit. But there's no need to tell them about OW. Let him shoulder that burden.
I can speak from experience; I over-shared with my family in the months following bomb drop, and my dad and my sister have a hard time accepting what my wife has done or why I choose to Stand.
(As it turns out, my wife has not told her family that she has moved out, at least not that I can tell. I still get cards coming to the house that are addressed to her, or to both of us.)
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First off I want to ruin her worse then I want to hurt my own Husband. I want everyone that she knows to know what she has done. I can do it too. Should I?
Secondly I am confused on who I should tell. Do I try to protect my husband from the backlash of the community?
And my last question. I could be wrong but I honestly think I could talk to OW and get her to stay far away from my husband. Part of me wants to do that.
Remember the MLC rule about the OP. It IS NOT ABOUT HER. Ruining her isn't necessary.
If you accept the fact your H is in crisis then please protect him, as you would your S or D.
I think that there is never any good to come from talking with the OP but that's up to you.
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Personally, I would agree with those who say that you increase her importance if you acknowledge her existance. I think tha t the best thing to do is to completely disregard her - never use her name, never talk about her - make it clear that to you, she is such a great big nobody and that you have no intention of acknowledging her. Do not even talk about her with your H.
Furthermore, you will look like SO much the bigger person if you don't badmouth her. SO MUCH! It will probably frustrate her more than anything, because letting her know how upset you are gives her power. In fact I would go as far as to say, just act as if "of course he is with you, only messed up people would be with you, when he is psychologically sound again, you will be gone, so enjoy it while it lasts" (don't say it, just act as if!)
There is no predicting outcomes, but the less reactionary you are now, the less you will have to kick yourself over later!
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So my questions...
First off I want to ruin her worse then I want to hurt my own Husband. I want everyone that she knows to know what she has done. I can do it too. Should I? Or is there a greater chance I will regret it later? Will I just push my husband further away if I do something to tarnish her reputation?
I'll be blunt. The more you think about HER and ruining HER and wanting to hurt HER, the more power you are giving her in your life. Right now she already has your husband and you are giving her your energy and your time and your thoughts. Personally, I would suggest that not only do you NOT "ruin her" but also stop giving her what is yours! You and your husband stood before friends, family and either deity or society(judge) and made very specific promises to each other. He has not promised to love her "for better, for worse; for richer, for poorer; in sickness and in health until death parts us" and he HAS made that promise to you. Even more important, YOU made that promise to HIM (and right now you could count it as "worse" and "sickness"). So you owe him some things and he likewise has a duty to you that he just does not have with that other person. So stop giving her your thoughts--those are yours and they are for YOU, Your husband, and Your family. Stop giving her your time--that is to be invested in YOU becoming the woman you have the potential to be, in your husband to create the blazing hot love you two both want, and in your family to create a safe, healthy place for people to grow. Stop giving her your energy--use that to ACT in a way that is different, and use that to become a better woman.
Let that other person "ruin herself" by her own choices. You won't need to help.
Secondly I am confused on who I should tell. Do I try to protect my husband from the backlash of the community? I have only told 2 close friends and I actually feel like I am betraying him for telling.
On this one I believe I disagree with some of the folks who have commented before me, in that I believe in telling friends and family--BUT (and it is an ENORMOUSLY HUGE BUT) the telling is not in a spirit of "hurting them back" but rather in a spirit of telling the truth to those whose lives may be affected and hurt by his choices. Let me give some examples:
If you two have a couple who you two are both friends with, who have been your friends for a long time, and whom you both consider like "best buddy" kind of people...and one day they come to you and say "Oh hey, we've noticed you and H have been sort of quiet lately so can you get him on the phone and let's set up a date to go to the movies." Those folks are going to have a mini-bombdrop of their own when they hear one day on the grapevine that you two are getting divorced. I see nothing wrong with telling them, "Oh I am so sorry to have to be the one to tell you this, but H has moved out. He's seeing another woman and it has upset me terribly, so I hope you'll keep us in your prayers while we try to work through these hard times." Likewise I don't see any wrong with informing people like your family or his family--especially if they ask you point blank.
Here's why I've reached that conclusion. For anyone such as his parents or your parents...they are going to find out when the divorce is final. You can't avoid it. Now if it has been kept from them, they will basically have a mini-BD of their own, and PART of their world is going to be affected by his choices. When an MLCer does this, they don't only affect their own life and their spouse's life...and maybe OP and OP's spouse. NO!! They also affect all the children, all the parents, all the aunts and uncles, all the cousins, etc. because all those people may lose up to half the time or more with an in-law or with grandchildren/cousin... Thus, again if a family member says something like, "Will you and H be coming to Thanksgiving next month?" just tell the truth and say, "I am not positive if we'll both be there. H has moved out and is living with another woman and we've been having some issues. So please keep us in your prayers while we try to get through this."
Finally, one of the reasons I believe as I do is that it is not YOU that is tarnishing his reputation (or the OW's rep) if you tell the truth. It is THEIR CHOICE TO COMMIT ADULTERY that is tarnishing their reputation!! All you're doing is telling the truth, and if they were being a model spouse, telling the truth would POLISH their reputation. So often MLCers will try to use that "guilt trip" method of covering up what their doing (again, because deep inside they know it's wrong), but it is not you telling the truth that dragging their name in the mud--it is their choice to be unfaithful that's doing that. However, you can see why it's so important to NOT be telling people in a spirit of vengeance--because there is a vast difference between "I'm not covering up for your disastrous and hurtful choices" and "I'm tattling and getting others on my side by telling on you". See it?
And my last question. I could be wrong but I honestly think I could talk to OW and get her to stay far away from my husband. Part of me wants to do that. I feel like if he doesn't have her and he doesn't have me, maybe he will come out of the fog faster. The other part of me says I should just let it play out.
Ah, grasshopper. This is a conclusion your husband has to come to on his own. If he didn't have her and was still in the crisis part of his MLC, he would just find someone else or another "addiction" to try to avoid facing the crisis. So my two cents: refer up above. Don't give her more power, thought, time or energy.
I just don't feel like I am very enlightened yet. It feels more like being a wimp then standing. I want my husband back, I want to stay married. But I feel like that makes me weak. Why would I still want him after what he has put me through this last year? Now I am the one waiting for him to want me... It should be the other way around, but I am just here saying I don't care what you did, want me, love me. Feels very pathetic.
Standing is not being a wimp. It's being a HERO. Standing is when the foundation of your vows is shook, and you go through "worse" and "sickness" and "poorer" all at the same time. Standing is loving someone who is not being loving toward you because you made a promise and have the honor to uphold your promises. Standing is not you just waiting around saying "I don't care what you did, want me, love me"-its saying "I made a covenant with you and I have the courage to honor my commitments even when it's difficult. It does matter that you treated me poorly, and we will deal with that, but I will not budge from my responsibilities to you just because you decide to make poor choices for a while." Standing is learning how to love yourself, and in the due course of time, if he chooses to come back, having the spine to say "Okay things will not ever be the same. Here's what I need from a life partner."
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The thread about MLCers not being the enemy has caused me to think really hard about a lot of issues. But mostly, how much “forgiveness” do they deserve, and how much does “standing” change your perspective? And RCR knows I respect her and all her work a lot, but I wonder if she would think differently if she had kids when dealing with her H’s MLC. My biggest struggle has not been me, it has been with the pain this has caused my kids. I have worked really hard with my therapist and my kids’ therapists on separating out my projections and issues and their issues and pain. Of course so much of it is entwined. There is a reason the saying “ain’t momma happy, ain’t nobody happy” probably resides in some form in half the houses in this country, right? Families are important and what hurts one person, hurts all. But they are far more hurt than I am.
I think if I had been a stander, I would be more apologetic when it comes to the kids. However, I have been told I can’t tell them he loves them or that he is not in his right mind. If he ACTS like he doesn’t love them, in their understanding, and he claims he is in his right mind, then I am totally contradicting him, and in reality, I don’t KNOW what he thinks or feels—obviously, I thought he loved me, but he left… If I were a true stander I would believe all this is temporary and one day he will come back and apologize and work to make things right, so I guess I would try really hard to make everything right. But I really think he will never admit he was wrong or made a mistake and I don’t have the energy to save me and him and them, someone has to go, and let’s be honest, he is the other grown-up in this picture.
I can imagine how painful it is to have a true vanisher, but my exH is so needy and dependent on his kids for something (I think it’s narc supply, but I could be wrong, but it is not healthy, whatever it is) that he has never abandoned them. He calls or texts about a dozen times a day and they hate it. He became superDad in the schools last year, wanted to be there for every event and scheduled regular meetings with teachers—our kids were in middle school, no reason for that. I really, truly wish he were a vanisher. It is so hard to have two kids in crisis with a father who “wants” to be totally involved but truly does not get it. He still blames me for everything—and so does his therapist, from what he tells me…
He claims he loves them more than anything, yet he had an affair, dumped me with no warning or notice, changed jobs, moved across the country to be with her and her kids and married her without telling his kids first. Things that make you go hmmmmm, right? So S15 finally grew the courage to tell him off this month and exH had a small breakdown. He begged me to help him. I sent him a couple long e-mails that he responded to in a positive way, but still nothing really—I think the dude has no concept of empathy.
S15 failed the eighth grade, went to summer school, eked out a promotion and is failing all his classes this year. I have a conference on Friday to discuss what to do with him now—it’s not pretty. And this is a very smart kid. A kid who last year promised he would not fail science—he knows it is my love. Going into the final, he had about a 30 average, and got a 98 on his final—he CAN do the work, he just won’t. Then this am, I left S13 curled up on his bed in the fetal position crying because he was so sad he will never have another “normal” holiday and he wants his life back. I had two important meetings today—I am commissioned and these were huge meetings—thanks to exH who forced me to go back and get a sub-standard full-time job so I could support two kids and have health insurance for them while he gets to make three times as much money for his new family…
I really am not bashing him. I loved him, will always love him, and I want him to be happy, I really do, and I hope he is. I need everything he did to be worth it. I am not a true stander like everyone else here, but in some ways I am. I will never marry again—I believe you marry once, for kids and a family, and that’s it. But, I also do not believe I should be alone for the rest of my life. I was a good partner and want that again. Some guy would be lucky to have me and I don’t want to waste the best years of my life (not to mention my sexual prime) waiting for exH to make up his mind and then nurturing him back to some kind of reality. I did buy in for better or worse, but sudden abandonment and remarriage to some needy chic across the country were not part of my vows.
So, today, in so many ways, he is my enemy. He is hurting my kids in ways I never imagined—I would never let anyone else get away with hurting my kids that badly and yet here I sit, holding the towels and letting them take the punches. This is where standing for me becomes confusing. My kids need me to stand for them, and that means that right now, in the most dangerous time of their lives, he is the enemy. I confess, my born allegiance is with the Nittany Lions and the Sandusky scandal has ripped me to the core. I have been nauseous for a week. And while it is not nearly equal, I feel like my exH and so many WAS’s are just like him—able to put aside the feelings of young kids for their own selfish needs. I am just sick over all of it, and the saddest part for me is that I know I am happier. I am happy not to have him in my life. I have wonderful friends and have had a blast dating for the first time in my life. I truly like people and I love spending time with men I would never have any reason to meet and would certainly not spend the rest of my life with them, but they are great people that I am glad to know. He was always miserable and impossible to please and so was his mother—and they were a package deal. I have a charming simple life now. But my kids are so unhappy and it is all so unfair. As S15’s therapist said, he has given him every opportunity to do just one thing right, but he keeps making poor choices. What are we supposed to do with that? Really? I keep rereading The Shack, trying to locate that in my heart, but I think I was just born without the "forgiveness" gene. How do the rest of you do it?
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Hi Lisa, I hear your post as I have 4 kids who are/were very hurt and confused. It is stunning to them, just as much or more than us in the beginning of this/her mess. D15 at the time of BD, S13 at the time, "lashed out" at her with some pretty vulgar stuff. S5 at the time became very uncontrolable ( and is 8 now and still is for her) S2 at the time who is autistic ( he's high functioning though, thank God! and is 5 now) is having emotional problems in his school and has been biting, spitting, scratching and saying bad words to his teachers coincided with her getting together with BF#2.
When my wife left 2 and a half years ago ( she's my ex now) she said "the kids will be fine" :o :o :o and blames me that I poisioned them! >:(
I have got them all pretty much stable and "time" has helped also except for the 2 little ones as they have to live in her world with her.
I feel the same as you and I am done with her but the kids will be a life long commitment that I will never give up! I put off my personal life for them and gave them a true model to model after. I am trying to get S16 now to try and reconnect with her as he does not do much with her. D19 now is away at school and "txt's her mother and also keeps in touch through FB. She is disappointed in her mother but wants to keep her relationship with her even if it's a small one.
I stood for her to try and get my kids all under one roof but her MLC is way to powerful for even her! I have the green light from my two oldest to GAL now and dating included! They have told me I have been there for them every step of the way as the BD was just not on me but them too! I took the high road foe the most part and although it was not my intention at the time as I was trying to save us all, it paid off for the kids sake! My 2 youngest are here "a lot" and love it!
I definitely gave her a lot of my energy but no more. I too cannot save her from herself. I knew that a while back. My ex claims the same as your ex that she loves them a lot yet never really "does" anything" to show it. All MLC. It will come back and bite her which is a shame.
My two oldest are also smart and both failed a few courses the first year after BD. D19 is doing GREAT now as I support her in all she does and I love when she calls for advice. S16 is also back on track with his grades and his attitude is much better. S8 is doing pretty good also and is very smart and can get by without much effort. I am afraid for their emotional health though and wonder just how much they are burying/buried. Time will tell.
As far as her being happy, I don't really care if she is or isn't. By the looks of her new BF, I would say she isn't. As far as "always loving her", That is gone with time, a shame, but I can forgive her as I truly feel she knows not what she does so to speak. Yes, she is the enemy of our children only she doesn't know it. Can't really fault her for MLC.
Hang in there, one stable parent can do the work!
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Lisa,
I agree, it's the hardest part. Me? I could say, Ok H have it your way. You've lied to me from the start etc etc. and walk away, heal and move on. (not saying that would be easy)but then I think about the kids and how they would so love to have daddy back home. Although s9 is quite clear that he does not want his dad home unless he apologizes to everyone for what he's done. He wants his old life with dad back. Not the current selfish angry dad. He's been playing old family videos to make himself feel better. He's suddenly come to the realisation that dad is never coming home (as he says it).
The boys get collected from school. They told H that no parking at the usual spot because exams are on at the moment. So H parks there (forgets) and walks all over the school looking for the boys who are simply around the corner at the 'kiss and drop off/pick up' area. H yells at them because he went everywhere to look for them. This is what they put up with all the time. his anger when they haven't done a thing.
I hate that I cannot do anything except be 'the best mum I can be'. I hate that this is the only advice I seem to get from anyone. If this were a different person, I would never leave the kids in their care again. Just because it is their biological dad, I must send them off to angry MLC land with H and OW.
Like MIL said, just pray for them before they go!
Truely, it is the same as asking a 16 yr old boy with a chip on his shoulder and his girlfriend to look after my kids. ::)
They are the inocent ones. And the MLCer is a monster to them. It's exactly the word they use to describe him. >:(
Just read Rookie's post.......
Yes mine said the kids would be fine too. He also said to me that they were adjusting so well because of his involvement with them ??? He only sees them on Sunday afternoons and for school drop offs/pick ups 3 days a week. He has no idea if they are adjusting or not. He's never asked. He never calls them either. :(
S9 also said he wanted me to meet a new man as he wants a 'real dad' who lives with us. :(
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Hi Lisa, I merged this thread with a previous one on the same topic. A couple other people were also recently asking similar questions as you. Hopefully this thread will help out a bit.
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Thanks rookie and SP, rookie, you especially give me hope that he might have a rough time but still get through it. It is hella hard... Spent all week trying to get S13 stable and sleeping--he cries all night long. And S15 teacher conferences to try to figure out how to get some credits for the year... And exH just keeps saying what can I do, should I come back there for a visit? How do you say, hell no, they hate you, and your visits are what make their life miserable? They tell me everything they should be telling him, yet they can't. It is so hard to grow that kind of backbone--it took me 42 years to do what they need to do, and yet they have to because their Dad who should be the grown up here isn't... I don't like feeling trapped in the middle, but I am and there is no way to bridge the gap. Thanks both of you, I knew my oldest was going to be a difficult teen from birth, but I thought that at least I would have the benefit of a stable, and flexible home to get him through... Oh well, off to pick up pizza. Everyone have a good night, love and light, Lisa
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Hi Lisa,
How did you get s13 stabel and sleeping? Mine are so restless at night and will not stay in bed. Stalling and delaying etc. It's lately often 10pm before I can get peace and quiet for myself. Had a major meltdown this morning and I think part of it is due to mental, emotional and physical exhaustion. Night times are just a place no one wants to go at the moment and I'm at a loss as to what to do.
Ofcourse the next mornign is always a battle to get them all out of bed again and dressed for school etc.
Any advice would be welcome.
Hugs,
SP
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Hi Lisa and SP, It took me a while, but if the kids see you as Happy and Smiling (even if you fake it for them as the stress is exhausting and can be overwhelming, been there!) they will begin to gain in themselves your happiness and strength. Kids can sense it all, if they sense your upset with your h's, they will be too. It's time to bury the hatchet on your MLCer for now and let your kids know in a nice way that he is sick right now and going through a lot and tell your kids not to give up on their dad or whatever you feel is 'the right words".
I know they miss/angry/pissed at their dad, but you have to become both parents for as long as it takes and when your sick and tired of it all you still have a ways to go. That is what will make them stable again, YOUR strength. Take the confusion out of them by ALWAYS letting them know you are there for them as I know you are probably already doing that. I do not think "replacing" their dad with another one is a very good idea at this point. They are not ready for that. I'm not even sure they are ready for you to date yet. They have a way to go yet. You will see the difference when it's time for that and you can trust me on that. I know we have needs and some yours may be different from mine because of the male and female difference and not just referencing sex but security and stability in our selves is different also. Yes we have our hands and day FULL of other peoples/kids needs and wants and our needs and wants are no where in sight, but it does get easier so don't think the tunnel will be dark forever.
I made this mistake as I was hurt, but never let them see you weak if you can. Kids look for models and strength in their parents. The safer you make the feel, the more SECURE they will become and the sooner your needs will be met. Trust me. The sooner you get a strategy on dealing with it ALL, the sooner stability comes. Take one thing at a time with your kids and master it. Then take the next thing. Be consistent and you will/can master anything in a week or less.
My heart goes out to you and your kids! Patience is gold and I know it is running short right now. Hang in there to see just how incredible you can be. Your reward will be nothing short of amazing. :)
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Thanks Rookie!!! :) :) :)
Just the pep talk and advice I needed this morning. I'm just not getting that sort of support from family and friends, so I appreciate you taking the time to post the above helpful pointers.
Rest assured, I won't be dating for some time. I'm married ;). Just posted that to show where s( is at with his feelings.
I like the tip of taking one thing at a time and mastering that. It will be timely bed times this week!!! Already told the kids there will be no late night movie night tonight (friday) as we have had way too many late nights this week. it's normal bed time for us all.
I did put a roster up for the dishwasher, compost run, feeding the dog and setting the table and that has been positive and gives me time to complete another task while they take care of their task. Even d3 is excited about helping (for now ;D )
I just lost it this morning when I got home from dropping them all of and sobbed and sobbed. Haven't done that in a while. Now I'm ready to pick myself up and get to being the best parent I can be.
Thanks and Hugs,
SP
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SP, I was writing while you were posting. Getting the kids to bed is tough, THIS is where you need to be fair, firm and CONSISTENT with them. Have a bed time and stick to it. You will need to stay right on top of them for days 1 -4 and things are going to be tough as they are going to RESIST control setting but day 5 or so you will see a difference if YOU are consistent. 7'oclock, last drink! last bathroom trip! 8-9 watch tv, 9, lights out or something like that. Do not budge from what is fair (and you will explain that to them and it has to be fair to them also) be firm and do not allow excuse's and be consistent! KIDS are begging to be controlled inside as that is stability!
They act out to be controlled believe it or not. And we all know they will try and ware us down, but controls are the healthiest thing for a kid/teenager. Try and master that one thing only. If mastered, other things will be that much easier as they will know you are for real and their own tests on your strength will diminish. Security will start settling in on them.
Good luck, I was giving this tool by my father as he is a psychologist and i was as overwhelmed as you and it worked for me. I was amazed and relieved. HAD to stay fair, firm and consistent though or, as he told me, "you will be wasting your time".
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lol, i was writing as you were posting again, give it a try though!
Glad to "read" your spirits are up! :) and this site is a place were we have the friends we really need, the ones who really do understand what each other is feeling and going through. A blessing for real in an unreal "world"! :)
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I just lost it this morning when I got home from dropping them all of and sobbed and sobbed. Haven't done that in a while. Now I'm ready to pick myself up and get to being the best parent I can be.
SP - I completely understand how you feel. Seems to overwhelm me most when I am at my most tired. Hope you're managing to take good care of yourself (well, as much as possible in the middle of this anyway :) )
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Thanks Rookie and Kikki,
Yes, it is good to get the help I need here. (Even if I'm hijacking some elses thread to get it ;) )
Friends and family just say "pull your head in" and "get on with it" or " be the best parent" etc. I think it's so easy for them to say that and then walk off. They don't realise how much we need real tangible bits of advice or help. Not just lip service. I'm getting this from some family. These are their nephews and neice and yet they don't want to be involved.
Thanks again,
Hugs,
SP
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SP, you are so correct on the family/friend thing. It does seem easy for them to give their .02 and walk away. Maybe they think we have coodies! Lol and will infect them and their marriage! Lol. And your correct also that they don't realize that we do need their help and some solid advice. The care and concern does seem to be on the thin side. I just think that if they kinda sorta ignore our problem/sitch that it will eventually go away for them! :o
I have a big family, 7 brothers and 3 sisters! We are close, A few of them will/have listened and validated, the others try to ignore my sitch. I think it pains them some to see me ( now saw me) in pain and separated from my little kids and her running off the way she did. They all liked my ex and all of a sudden she's gone! Nobody see's this coming. One minute our family and friends think we have a great marriage and the next poof! gone, BD on them too!
I think in honesty they have really no idea how to react. MY mother was soooo angry at her that she told me "to find another woman, that will show her!" LOL I said "yeah Ma, that will fix everything!" Lol
I tried thinking if I was there for 2 of my brothers who were divorced by their wives ( they were in their late 20's and early thirty's when their wives left and both of them had better relationships with their drinking buddies than their wives, so i wasn't shocked by it) but i thought back to then and I remembered that I could not feel their pain, therefore I could not relate.
I feel everybody's pain here and can relate and have an understanding with all here! The sensitivity and caring here is unmatched by any family member or friend. :) For some reason, I feel, we even have to show our family and friends we are strong. :o
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Rookie,
Well said.
I am the eldest of 5.
2 live interstate and it's my brother and brother in-law who are interstate that I would love to be near the kids here. They are the role models I am lookings for, for my boys.
The 2 brother's in law here have not taken an interest. One has no kids and the other two older girls (18 and 20) so it's not like they are snowed under with their own.
My youngest sister has been an angel. She is always available to chat and has come over to help me quite a bit. Can't complain about her. My other sister seems to have a range of excuses. I have even asked if I could visit her and her husband one Sunday afternoon while H had the kids but she said no, as they were dealing with her H having quit his job and looking for another ???.
She herself had an affair years ago but they stayed married. No counseling though and she's even wondered why I took the kids to counseling. I think she has her won issues and doesn't want to acknowledge mine or like you say be too involved.
I've also noticed other people at church not talk to me any more. I don't talk about H any more unless they ask but they do avoid now.
Atleast here we have friends who do understand! Yay for that!!!
Hugs,
SP
New thread:
http://mlcforum.theherosspouse.com/index.php?topic=2243