Midlife Crisis: Support for Left Behind Spouses
Archives => Archived Topics => Topic started by: FindingNemo on May 12, 2014, 09:51:21 PM
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I hope I am putting this in the correct area for discussion...
I have been reading a lot of threads trying to get a grasp on what I am dealing with and a thought occurred to me. It seems to me that the MLC spouse that comes around the most and / or has the most interaction with their family all seem to be in some sort of counseling. They might still be fogged up in the head, but at least they are making some sort of effort to get things right.
So, my question is this --- How did they end up in counseling? Did you ask them to go? Did you have to beg, plead, threaten with divorce or some sort of consequences? Or did they just up and decide to go seek help one day all on their own?
I asked my husband to attend counseling back in January and his answer was Not right now. So, is 4 months too short of a time span to attempt to address this issue again? How would I go about trying to bring this back up in a way that doesn't sound like I am nagging or pleading?
I really do think that if my husband had someone that he could talk to and could get feedback from he would be so much better off.
Any one care to share their thoughts or experience?
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My personal view is that while your H is in the thick of MLC - counselling is a waste of time!
I tried quite a bit in the early days of his crisis and my H just lied and talked rubbish. He's now getting someways towards the end of it and has started counselling again. He's gone through quite a few of them but I've no idea how it's going as he goes alone!
Hope that helps.
X
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i totally agree. We went to counselling for 6 months and TOTAL waste of time and emotional misery. He lied , said horrible things, blamed me etc. and i paid for this? He is now home and attening weekly.
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I think if they are seeing an IC then it has to be a good thing , but you have to remember how deep down some of their issues are . It will take a lot of time for the IC to work to the route of the problems and to start with a lot of the work might just be getting them from day to day .
My h has been in counselling for a year but most of the time was just getting him from week to week .
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Counsellers listen. They don't advise. They validate feelings and thoughts. What's there to validate when the 'patient' talks crazy and is living in a make believe existence?
When the patient doesn't know what he is running from?
Asking them to go, asking them to do anything that might work in our favour is not something a mlcer receives well.
My mlcer won't even see a doctor because he reckons:'' The doctors know nothing, full of crap and trying to shove parmaceuticals down our neck!''
So instead he takes anti-depressants of the streets, anything to numb the soul and pain so long as it down is HIS choice and in HIS control!
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My H has been through rehab last year and started seeing one of their counsellors about a month ago - I think HE had to be ready to face his demons this time round, he knew he needed to & knew that he would have to seek counselling to do it but he had to be at a place where he was ready and strong enough to start that part of his journey I think.
The cousellors there are very "hands on" in the sense that they will take no bull$hit as they are used to working with addicts who are very good at hiding their true feelings & burying their emotions, for my H this has been a really positive thing as it seems to have forced him to face up to things & ensured that he cant just talk the talk, its also provoked a lot of different ways of thinking etc for my H.
I think finding a good counselor is crucial!
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I did not find counseling to be helpful. I think unless it's their choice to go for themselves and the counselor is very well trained in mlc and pro marriage that it's a waste of time and in my case it was a fiasco that made things worse a lot quicker. So do a lot a research before you make a decision on going that route.
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my h told my son he has seen many counsellors and psychologists and he still doesnt understand or know why he did whart he did ???? so dont know what counsellors can do to help , i had counsekling too but dont think she rally knew or recognised mlc at all
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I agree that counsellors can be very hit or miss and also think the MLCer will hear only what they want to hear.
In my case, H did see a counsellor who basically told him that "sometimes feelings do change, there's not always a reason why....so when you move out make sure to get a house with enough bedrooms for the kids and for gods sake get a lawyer" well that's what H told me anyway, who knows what he told the counsellor or what the counsellor actually said. It's all so filtered and skewed by perspective.
I saw a fantastic counsellor for myself for almost two years, who believed in "life crises" that arose out of " unresolved issues". She carefully avoided talking of a mid life crisis but in any event her focus was on me and making me think about the future I wanted and how to cope with what had happened and also helped with some issues with my children. I thought she was great, a life saver in fact. But perhaps that's MY perspective!!
We did see a marriage counsellor a few times. H agreed to go saying "it won't change anything for me but it might help me find the words to tell you why I need to leave" well, he never found the words except to accuse me of being too rigid and controlling, our relationship for being too insular, my family were all socially inept, and he "just can't go back to that relationship". The counsellor was not really prepared and admitted to me later that all Hs reasons were insubstantial and then jokingly mentioned MLC. At least he put me on the right path there and that's when started searching and came across this forum.
I asked the counsellor about MLC a little later. He agreed it was real enough and all I could do was leave H to sort through his stuff. he also agreed that MLC destroyed families and marriages but there was little he could do unless H chose to seek help. He was very good and tried to follow up with H but was just got lied to to eg rang H workplace to be left on hold for 30 mins then was told H was on leave when that was not true. I suspect OW (his PA) had a hand in that deception. I can picture the two of them conspiring together to get rid of the nasty counsellor on the phone.
I have an expectation that counselling would be part of any reconciliation attempt ... I would steer H away from his original counsellor and head him towards the counsellors I have found to be more in tune with the MLC idea and also pro marriage ... But perhaps I am just incredibly naive.
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The original counsellor that H and I saw together completely fell for my H's claptrap and did make remarks to me about my behaviour!!! It completely validated my H's disgusting behaviour and I refused to go back after a while because I was being made to look the villain and the one responsible for our marriage breakdown. The counsellor completely misunderstood and just thought the issues were that I wouldn't allow my H to have any friends!
It was me that sat there in tears whilst my H sat gently holding my hand seemingly oh so caring in front of the counsellor so I just told my H I was no longer going as he was doing nothing but telling lies!
If counsellors take their patients at face value and believe their lies and rubbish then I don't see how any of it can be helpful!
X
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At the start the counsellor can only work with what they are being told by the client . Many people are not honest with counsellors and then give up because the problems have not been solved .
In time once they get to know and understand the clients the counsellors may see that things are not what they seem, but this takes more than just a few visits and a lot of time . Our behaviour in adulthood has it roots in out childhood and we may have spend many years displaying this behaviour before we reach a crisis point , so it is only natural that these things will take time to sort out .
I was very against seeing a counsellor but found great help in talking to someone who does not judge me , I have been honest with her about all of my feelings , she can not solve H's MLC but she has made me understand myself .
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LaughLoveLive,
Those things your h told you were almost word for word what my h said to me and our counselor also told him how to divorce me cheaply. Gotta laugh. What else can you do.
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As some of you may know know I'm a trainee counsellor and consequently having weekly therapy as a condition of my course. For the record, I'm 28 months post-bd.
I wanted to share my thoughts about discussing MLC-type behaviours in therapy/counselling as I know many struggle to find a counsellor who "gets" MLC. Tbh, I don't think it's necessary to find a counsellor who gets MLC. I think it's more useful to look at the behaviours that categorise MLC - avoidance, refusal of responsibility, personality change plus identity issues, parental attachment issues, hormonal issues, passive-aggressive behaviours, codependency behaviours, addiction, etc.
I also think by looking at the specific behaviours and how they impact on you, you will feel more understood by your counsellor. Counsellors will understand these behaviours, they see them all the time. Whether we like it or not, the term MLC has way too much baggage. It is not included in MLC training or even mentioned. So instead of beating your head against a brick wall trying to convince your therapist that MLC exists, why not explore the specific behaviours and issues as they manifest in your spouse/partner. I find I don't even use the term anymore. For example, today in therapy, I explored how my husband manifests as a child (teenager) and refuses responsibility and how I can best respond to him as an adult and not parent. (Transactional Analysis is a great tool for understanding parent/adult/child behaviours and responses) My counsellor really understood the issues, she has seen them many many times. But not once did I use the term MLC as I just don't felts helpful.
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I agree Sunny , very well put . If you look at what most counsellors list as areas of expertise you will see many of the issues that make up a crisis period in life .
Call an
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I was very lucky indeed . The 1st counsellor we saw said he was having an Identity / Mid Life Crisis. She absolutely believed it was a very real thing. The marriage counsellor that we now see, believes it as well. And my husband sees individual counsellor who specializes in mid life transition issues and crisis. I would never have had the strength to try to convince anyone that this phase of life is a fact for so many people... i have been blessed. Thanks !
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Barbie, you DID luck out!
My 1st counselor didn't get it, but my second one did. Why? Because he went through a crisis himself.
Sunny, how in the world do you try to explain every one of those symptom's to a therapist?
I would think going one at a time would take years. I guess maybe just telling them your spouse seems to be going though an Identity Crisis would sound more legit. Midlife Crisis makes a person think flash cars, gold chains around their neck and chasing OP young enough to be there daughter/son...and it's so much more than that.
Thanks for your information. You're going to be a wonderful therapist!
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I also need to add.. I went and seen a lawyer and told him the story. He said " come back in 6 months.. i see alot of men fall apart at this age, do nothing legally that you cannot undo ". He gave me some legal advise as well, charged me nothing... and i did not need to go back in 6 months IMAGINE ?
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Barbie, says a lot for the legal profession; they must see MLC in droves! Glad to hear you had success with your IC and MC. :)
Callan, thanks for your comment. :)
Thank you Thunder for your kind comment. :) As for discussing the different issues, I guess I would ask do they need to all be discussed? What I mean is when you're in therapy, you would looking at how MLC impacts on you. You could mention your H is going through a crisis, or maybe call it an identity crisis, but the important bit of therapy is not about your H, it is about you. So discussing his behaviour is not really relevant unless it impacts on you and even then you wouldn't spent time looking at his behaviours, you would most likely use that time to explore your feelings about the behaviour. Hope I'm making this clear! It's not about your H, it's about YOU. Counselling isn't cheap, use that time to explore your feelings and not focus on his! Hope that helps!
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Sunny, thank you. I understand the counseling is for me, not him but it took me awhile.
It really doesn't matter what he is feeling or doing I had to think about how I was reacting to it. I get that now. We expect them to tell us how to understand them..and that is not their job. It's to help us coop.
I think when you first go into therapy you want answers as to why. You have this need to fix things....and you really can't.
You can only fix you.
Hey, I'm trainable. :)
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Hi Sunny,
I'm an LPCC and agree with everything you said. It's not so important that someone gets MLC, but that they get how their behaviors affect those around them. I know many of my fellow therapists understand SOME of the basics, but I truly think you have to live through something like this to really get how deep the wounds are. Good luck on the rest of your journey!!
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As much as this sight has been great i told my therapist at my final session I kinda wish I satyed ignorant. It would have been easier to just get angry and file for divorce. Now I "know" enough to understand what's going on with her just enough to hold out hope she may "figure it out". Will this just keep me wrapped up longer than I should be? Prevent my completion of the grief process?? Much like when someone dies expectidly after a long illness, family don't get to acceptance until after the actual death occurs. That's kinda how I feel now... Stuck in a wierd stage after bargaining but before anger. I accept my current limbo situation but not a divorce that is likely but hasn't actually been started.
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Dj,
Very good point. I never looked at it this way.
Maybe we would have been better off not knowing about MLC.
I mean it helps as far as not blaming ourselves and it helps to know we are not alone in this crazy situation but it also sets up a hope that we may not have had and just gone on thinking it was just a break down of a marriage.
Maybe we would be farther along with our healing and getting on with our lives.
Food for thought.
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I don't know, I think knowing about this helps us let go of anger and bitterness in a healthy way. If we used our anger to get over this we might not really heal. We could be part of the population that gets out there, moves on to someone else, and repeats harmful patterns.
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Bipolared - I agree... But I'm having a hard time getting to the anger stage. My w cheated, that pisses me off. But I feel like I'd be getting angry at someone for getting sick. I'll probably get there once she starts and finishes the divorce. That will be the point where I will truly let go of any reconciliation possibility. That will be the end for me. Until then I feel stuck.
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Dj,
I think you are absolutely right! It like getting angry with a sick person.
I did, over these past 4 years, felt some anger but it was fleeting.
I thought I'd be angry when the D was over, but it never happened. Maybe if I saw him really happy and content I could feel anger, but all I see is a hurting, broken person.
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I also need to add.. I went and seen a lawyer and told him the story. He said " come back in 6 months.. i see alot of men fall apart at this age, do nothing legally that you cannot undo ". He gave me some legal advise as well, charged me nothing... and i did not need to go back in 6 months IMAGINE ?
I was reading back through this thread and wonder how I missed this. Just like Barbie's lawyer, I had set up a meeting with a mediator. The mediator talked to my husband and then called me back. The mediator told me that he would not work with us. He told me that my husband was in no way shape or form capable of dealing this this sort of thing at the moment and he would not be any part of taking advantage of a person. Meaning that I would be able to take my husband for all that he is worth and my husband wouldn't bat an eye - yet a few years from now he would wake up and wonder what the heck happened. This MLC is pretty darn scary stuff if you really think about it.
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Has your therapist said something about MLC that you found:
Useful
Validating
Instructional
Or otherwise helpful?
I wanted to start a little thread so we could share our feedback about what might work or not work when it comes to understanding and dealing with MLC in the context of therapy.
I know many people have had unhelpful experiences with therapy, but is there something that has worked? If so, under what circumstances? Has your therapist pointed out anything that helped give you clarity or struck you as oarticularly insightful?
I will share below as well.
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Wow looking forward to reading these posts ty Velika
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Mine said, 'he is certainly having some kind of crisis!' [meaning she may not call it mlc or subscribe to the theory of 'mlc' but he is in crisis].
Also 'does he know what a train wreck he is?' Doesn't help the situation. Made me feel better. :)
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Mine said, 'he is certainly having some kind of crisis!' [meaning she may not call it mlc or subscribe to the theory of 'mlc' but he is in crisis].
Also 'does he know what a train wreck he is?' Doesn't help the situation. Made me feel better. :)
Wow! Even therapists are using the script...yet don't believe in MLC! ::)
Thanks Velika, looking forward to some interesting posts! ;)
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Mine said he was like a child testing the ice to see if it would break. Stamping and jumping on it to see if it would bear his weight. This was two years ago. I'm strong, he knows that but has no interest in me other than as the mother of his kids.
X
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My therapist just dealt with me and my fears/worries/panic attacks etc...
At no point did she offer any comment about my H or crisis. She said that her job was to help recognise how I was reacting/behaving and turn it into responses.
At first I wanted her to comment but she refused as she was not a marriage therapist and I was her client not H.
Now I am so glad she did that - I have used the strategies to help me and written about them in my earlier threads. Using those strategies helped me detach and learn how to handle myself when in communication with H.
That is what is important.
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My IC spoke to me on the phone for over an hour before we even met , she just got the confusion that I had , she got the complete sense of shock . She just got it , she was the first IC who I spoke to who did not say I don't want to talk about your H she understood that at that time I needed to talk about H .
She had counselled Men and Women in Crisis and she had also counselled people like me who were left to deal with the fall out and at the time .
She was a person based counselor so she let me talk about whatever I wanted to talk about which to start with was H , I needed to talk to someone neutral about H and she was the perfect ear everyone else around me was to close to the situation .
In time she helped me understand myself , she helped to love and accept who I am .
When I looked for an IC I was not looking for one who understood MLC , I had no idea what I was looking for I just knew that I needed help . Mine does not list MLC on her website , but she has experience in all of the the issues that can lead to the perfect storm that is MLC .
Counselling is such an individual thing and we all need different things in an counselor but the one thing I have learned is that it will only work if your want it to , it will only work if you are wiling to let it .
Callan
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I had two counsellors. The first wouldn't talk about H much, all she seemed to want to listen to the latest drama - and in the months after BD there was much, of course. She used to get angry with H, and at one point I said to her - 'you're getting angry, that's good!' and we both laughed. She was unfortunately anti-male, though (she'd worked in a male prison at one point and clashed with the very macho management? something like that - she even told me about it), and I didn't get a lot out of her sessions, except for chance to regularly vent. She came recommended by a friend which is why I saw her.
The second was better and WAS willing to talk about H, though she had no real understanding of the difficult convergence of things that produce MLC. She knew about the individual parts of course, eg depression, leaving emotions buried, control as a defense mechansim. I liked her impartiality. She even asked me for a book on Midlife. She helped more than the first one, though we went deep into my childhood (as they like to do sometimes) and found very little that I didn't already know. A few more tears were shed, which may have helped, but it didn't really assist with living through mlc at all. That's been a journey that ONLY this site and my lbs friends have been able to help with (plus Jed Diamond, of course, who I contacted right at the beginning. He had an MLC himself, so he knew... and he could put it into psychological/biological context - priceless).
For me, it would have to be someone willing to talk about H. That was what I needed to sort out in my head - WHY he was behaving so oddly. The problem was never me. Taking my psyche apart was a red herring, in my view. Though it's always good to empty the psychological closets and see what's in there. And I always quite enjoy a mental spring clean.
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Mine has told me several times that the wrong person is in therapy and that she wishes she could spend some time working with my wife.
And she gets it. She said at the very beginning that it must have been like getting hit by a bus. She was right, except the bus keeps returning. I think she gets that part now, too.
After my session yesterday we walked out to the waiting room and she saw that her next client wasn't there so she asked me to do her a favor. She's receiving a reward today for Social Worker of the Year ans she asked me if I would listen to her acceptance speech and give her some feedback. That was nice. I got to hear about her background and all of the people who influenced her. I mention this to illustrate that she doesn't treat me like some crazy person. She really seems to respect me and my stand.
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The only thing that sticks in my head was when I was leaving my counselors office for the last time I said to him...do you believe in MidLife crisis and his answer was...how do you think I got this job?
We both smiled. Apparently he had been through it himself. I knew he understood all along.
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Although my IC was remarkable at helping me understand what had happened, I think the most profound thing she told me is that people like STBX are like rebellious teenagers who push every boundary they meet. They look at us like their mother--we are supposed to give them unconditional love no matter what. While that it certainly one of the tenets of HS, what we as LBSs have to remember is that we are not their mother and that even mothers have lines. For whatever reason, when she told me STBX likely views me as a mother, I was able to finish letting go. The only people I want to be a mother to are D23 and S21.
Another thing that really hit home with me is that people in that deep of a depression are incapable of empathy and are entirely me-focused (like I didn't know that, right?). It was the way she described it that made that knowledge sink in to where I no longer react to whatever he does.
The last thing that stayed with me was her telling me how OW often work: they stay on best behavior until they get the ring. Only then do they begin to drop their guard. The way she put it to me in that particular session was, "I wouldn't be surprised if she has never farted in front of your husband". Yes, it was funny, but I when I thought about it, I agreed with my IC. These women have to project themselves as some kind of perfect being because they know they aren't.
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I agree. This is why they typically move so quickly, from first date to living together to married as soon as possible. It takes a lot out of them to act concerned and loving when that's not their true nature.
That's why I'm dragging my feet on the divorce but I think my wife may have already figured him out and that's why she doesn't seem to be committed to him but instead acts like she's just staying there.
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Saw my new therapist along with the family one today. They both agreed that I needed to have a life, and that it would be healthy for me to get rolling on the taking better care of me front.
They both told me that he has way to much control/power over me financially and that I need to start making some financial headway. Fast. They are both LBSers. Family therapist is male. My IC is female.
They both explained that he's not going to stop his antics until he gets that I'm done, and not coming back. It could take a while, but they both assured me that it would eventually stop.
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My IC (whom is really great) started therapy by teaching me skills and the methodology (like learning to play tennis) on how to cope with the "reality gap" between the reality I want (and knew), and the reality that is delivered to me with my H's MLC.
Now that she sees that I am progressing well with my coping, she has started to focus on helping me try to better understand H and his MLC. She agrees that the more I understand "what is happening to H", the easier it will be for me to accept the new reality. This exercise is of course not the same as H going to therapy, and analyzing him (through my eyes) is really to help me (not H). Here is what we did in the last two sessions - happy to share further reading materials.
Attachment Types. The first thing my IC wanted to identify was our attachment styles - here is a test I found online: http://www.web-research-design.net/cgi-bin/crq/crq.pl (http://www.web-research-design.net/cgi-bin/crq/crq.pl). See here for short explanations on the different styles and their impact on relationships: http://www.psychalive.org/category/attachment-style/ (http://www.psychalive.org/category/attachment-style/) and https://jebkinnison.com/bad-boyfriends-the-book/type-dismissive-avoidant/ (https://jebkinnison.com/bad-boyfriends-the-book/type-dismissive-avoidant/). She asked me to answer the questions positioning myself at a time (i) before I met my H (my natural style) and (ii) 6-12 months before BD (to see how his style impacted my natural sense of security). She asked me to do the same for H, as best I could, and to survey his old friend/family for the time before he met me.
It was very revealing. In my case, H was clearly very Avoidant/Dismissive before he met me, and became more Secure when he met me (probably as secure as he could have gotten), because I am very Secure and I figured out intuitively from the start that I needed to give him lots of space and freedom, while being supportive and emotionally available. Summarily, a person with Avoidant/Dismissive attachment fears intimacy and rejection, and copes with this fear by training themselves to not need to attach or connect with anyone. She suspects that once he shut me out and shut down that source of emotional security, he reverted back to his natural attachment style of very Avoidant/Dismissive, which is where he is most comfortable to weather his existential crisis - or vice versa.
This reassures me that I did the right thing all these years by giving him space instead of trying to demand more intimacy and forcing him out of his cave... Maybe this was the maximum amount of emotional connection that he could have sustained (until he deals with his childhood baggage). Maybe he ran away to be alone, to not have to need me, nor for me to need him. This may also explain why he ran away even if there is no OW.
Schema Therapy. The school of psychology I am workinh on is called Schema Therapy; the forefront of that school is Jeffrey Young see http://www.schematherapy.com/ (http://www.schematherapy.com/). I read his easiest book "Reinventing your Life", and it helped me identify the Schema (i.e., the warped filters through which we interpret information and act) that was controlling my life (and that of H) and how to work on neutralizing them to live a more authentic life.
We are all "warped" one way or another, and we kind of have hints and impressions that we are warped, but may not have consciously realized or acknowledge the warping or its impact on our lives. Very quickly, my warped filters were named and I understood how influential they were on my way of seeing things and how they contributed to my knee-jerk reactions and how they impacted the actions and decisions that I took.
This is heavy stuff and will take some time to work through, but understanding the existence of the filters (and that they should not be trusted), naming them, and facing them, is good start. This exercise helps you to better understand the inner workings of yourself and those you love, including H.
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My psychiatrist(male), was the one that brought up MLC to me along with bipolar and paranoia issues. He has felt from the beginning that OM is the driving force here. I have been replaced and there is nothing that I can do or say to change her mind. Her brain is closed to me. Only a professional therapist will be able to unlock her brain. He does not believe that W will file for a divorce. He feels that I must file in order to bring her back to reality. He feels that I should ask W questions about OM and her issues. Yea, did that once and was not good. His direct and confront W approach is not the best idea.( 9 months currently)
My work psychologist (female), said your W is done. She wants a divorce. This is how marriages end. Here is the # to a good lawyer. In her defense I only went to her twice so she really had a small sample to deal with.
My private psychologist (female) felt the same initially. Your W is done, etc.. She has changed her stance over time. Your W is ill. There are elements of MLC and mental illness according to her. She is now adamant that W is never going to file. I will have to. Not a big fan of the MLC theory but she does recognize it due to the bizarre behavior. She has held firm from the beginning that W cannot be forced into therapy, nor would she go on her own for quite some time. She says absolutely do not discuss OM or her issues. W will have to address on her timeline. ( 8 months currently)
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Watcher - you have raised the point that concerns me the most about some of the therapists and counsellors that LBSers here are seeing.
All 3 (!!) of your psychologist/psychiatrists have said that whilst they might recognise that she is done then it is up to you to file, end the marriage formally and "MOVE ON"
This is so telling - they really do not understand MLC and the fact that it is rooted in deep depression but also committing what I think is unprofessional behaviour.
As stated earlier my therapist refused to discuss H, his behaviour or depression - I was and am her client. I am the one who is important and not the marriage and certainly not my H. She wanted and still does wants me to heal on my own - to make my own decisions and to grow for me. If that means I choose to D or not - so be it. I have to be able to live with myself and my decisions
This is what any good individual therapist should do. Yes of course they should recommend that you look at your marriage and H/W and how it is affecting you but they are in no position to declare that the marriage is completely over, nor are in they in any position to declare that filing will be the thing you should do because it is best for you. In so doing they are no better than the rest of society that just doesn' get MLC.
I am not dismissing any of the work that any of your individual counsellors/therapists etc do for you but I am very concerned that some LBSers on here might be wasting money spending time discussing the MLCer rather than themselves.
UKS and MBIB state that they feel the problem is not with them. No generally for most if us it isn't - this is MLC and like them I thought that I was ok and the one that was hard done by. I went to my T initially because I didn't want to takes ADs and could not stop crying after 5 months. I felt destroyed inwardly and didn't like it. S&D had always been the one in quiet control and always organised etc...
Now I realise that even though I thought I was fine and the problem wasn't with me - I still feel that way but I feel more whole, more complete and more content with life even though it's handed me a few challenges. I am happier than I have ever been and I am able to pass that happiness onto my family and even H!
Therefore this is why I am almost evangelical about individual therapy and how it must only be tailored to the "client" and not the marriage or the MLCer.
I am also incredibly wary of counsellors that promote divorce - that does not solve any emotional problem even though it might be a very practical thing to do in terms of finance and children etc. Closure arises from internal processing leading to outward actions and not the other way around.
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This is what any good individual therapist should do.
For you. Maybe Watcher needs different things and way to heal. We can't tell, maybe his therapists can.
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This is what any good individual therapist should do.
For you. Maybe Watcher needs different things and way to heal. We can't tell, maybe his therapists can.
I get very angry when I see therapists TELLING people what is best for them.
They should be working with you to understand the problems and to help you to get stronger to make your own decisions, they should be helping you to identify the coping mechanisms to get you through the pain, they should be helping you to identify any problems or issues you may have which stops you from healing, like co dependency, fixer modes (which most LBS's seem to have).
I would think most people who go to see a therapist do it at a time when they are extremely vulnerable (not all but it is pretty much the case with an LBS, particularly if its at the start of the MLC hell).
We are all over the place, I know I still can be, I can go from compassion, to anger, to sadness, to grief, to laughing at the ridiculousness of all this within the space of an hour.
So to be TOLD what you should do, particularly from someone who you spend an hour week with and does not know you really or your relationship, circumstances etc. is frankly IMO unprofessional and dangerous.
Having now been in therapy since July 2015 I have found it a revelation I am also lucky enough to have a sister and BF who are both trained therapists and as I have a keen interest in anything Psychology based I have also been an avid reader.
Yet I am still coping with my emotions on a day to day basis and although I am much stronger than I ever realised I don't have any self esteem issues and I can intellectualise MLC I am still suffer shock each time my H does something, even if its something I might expect, you still have to deal with it.
We all know in our heart if or when we are done and even then it hurts.
So to be pushed into divorce by a therapist who does not have to deal with the aftermath, the pain or anguish, regret every day and who after they write your notes up, think nothing more about you until the next time IMO is plain wrong.
Rant over....I will document a few things my therapist has said later
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Songanddance,
That probably would explain why I am angry after my sessions and it takes me about a day or two for me to regain my equilibrium. I have to admit, I go to the psychiatrist purely for my anxiety. Unfortunately, my anxiety is for my W solely. He is once a month and I do not follow his relationship advice, because being aggressive with a MLC'er is really counter productive. I listened once and it had disastrous results. I run things through my IC and she appears to be more level headed with whats going on.
My IC has evolved. Her initial stance was divorce. She does recognize illness and encourages me to allow my W to have time now to process what she is going through. HOWEVER, you may want to sit down for this one Songanddance, she has recently asked me if I started dating and informed me about a certain dating website. I have to admit that I left the office confused that day and did cancel my next session. I have questioned myself whether its really worth going back.
In all of this, my female attorney has shown the most compassion. "Your W is obviously going through something and I can see that you still love her. There is no reason to rush into divorce." That has been my stance. I have always said that is my line in the sand. Once I cross it, there will be no going back.
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Quote from: Songanddance on Today at 08:38:49
This is what any good individual therapist should do.
For you. Maybe Watcher needs different things and way to heal. We can't tell, maybe his therapists can.
I get very angry when I see therapists TELLING people what is best for them.
They should be working with you to understand the problems and to help you to get stronger to make your own decisions, they should be helping you to identify the coping mechanisms to get you through the pain, they should be helping you to identify any problems or issues you may have which stops you from healing, like co dependency, fixer modes (which most LBS's seem to have)
Exactly 1T
Samurai - I think you have me wrong here. I did not say that Watcher didn't need different things or different way to heal. What I said was that the counsellors/therapists etc who channel/focus their client towards a path without giving them the space or genuine concern to discover and decide for themselves are not being helpful/ appropriate.
It's a bit like going to the doctor when you know that you have a chest infection and the doctor saying "nah - you'll get better soon but I would like you to try rock climbing as a form of exercise to help you get over it."
HOWEVER, you may want to sit down for this one Songanddance, she has recently asked me if I started dating and informed me about a certain dating website. I have to admit that I left the office confused that day and did cancel my next session. I have questioned myself whether its really worth going back.
Honestly - Watcher - my absolutely honest opinion is no - don't waste your money.
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I have to agree with S&D on this one a good IC should never tell you what to do but help you explore your options and work towards your goals. If you want to divorce then they help you get to a point where that is an ok option - same for standing. I don't think talk of the MLCer is automatically bad but it should be brought back to how the behavior makes you feel, etc. IC can't predict the future so telling you that your marriage is done is very inappropriate. My IC would say that my marriage is done until I say it is.
I think many IC fall into the same traps that our friends do where they want to see the nightmare end so they encourage divorce. However, if that is not what you want then that will not end the pain.
2 nuggets I've found especially useful from my IC (who has written books on male MLC):
1. Assume neutral or positive intent until I know otherwise. It stopped me from over personalizing my H's behavior.
2. He makes me commit to my stand in increments. I'm commited through the end of April. I'm not allowed to second guess based on circumstances in that time. We'll revisit at end of April to determine if I want to keep standing and recommit for some other period of time. That really helped get me off the roller coaster. I don't second guess based on each thing H does.
My marriage coach on the other hand got me focusing on my own behavior and that I am the only person I am 100% in control of. She's taught me about keeping my behavior consistent regardless of H's behavior. I am therefore not reacting to him but acting in ways that are authentic to me.
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Attaching x
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RT, I think you are getting really good advice.
I feel unfortunately we are all in a situation that in many ways appears identical to a breakup on the surface.
However, in most cases what we are likely witnessing is PTSD, depression, and even serious mental illness and/or psychological triggers.
Therefore, we need to be in therapy both to deal with our own trauma and also learn a way to react that does not exacerbate the PTSD/depression/illness.
These are very difficult skills to learn simultaneously. Especially if the person we are reaching out to for help is treating the situation as a simple breakup or surfacing, pre existing personality disorder.
I think Watcher's comment shows that it takes a while for any therapist to understand what is going on.
I think that what is happening above all is trauma. Oftentimes traumatized people need to discuss what happened for a long, long time just to process it. Telling them to get a divorce is like telling someone who experienced a devastating earthquake that killed their entire family that they need to move to another town right away. If that ends up being the right decision, it will become apparent over time.
Likewise, I do think that sometimes means just talking about MLC until we are ready to talk more about ourselves. Using the earthquake analogy, someone experiencing a natural disaster might need to process over and over before they start to ask questions like: Why didn't I call for help? Why didn't I run to the next room? Etc.
From my own limited experience, I would offer the following helpful tips for dealing with MLC/LBS trauma in therapy:
- I would avoid marriage counseling right after bomb drop. (Taking further, I would avoid MLC spouse almost completely if possible at least three months post bomb drop.)
- Only go to a couples/joint counselor who you have talked with prior and who seems to understand this is not just a marriage problem. Find someone who is pro-marriage and not divorced and who is willing to talk to both of you in general terms, not just trying to diagnose the marriage or set goals.
- If joint counseling is an option, see separately until spouse is ready to work on marriage or has calmed down.
- Find someone who is trained in trauma and healing techniques: imago, EFT, hypnosis, NLP.
- Find a therapist who understands childhood wounding issues.
- Find a therapist who understands depression, especially male depression
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I will add anything if it comes up. It's really helpful to read about others' experiences.
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Songanddance,
That is where I have been leaning for quite sometime now. I think in my initial hysteria I jumped at the chance for a therapist without really doing much research on it. I believe it served its basic purpose of allowing me to talk with someone when I really needed it. I have recovered from the initial shock and have been looking to bring the sessions to an end. I already know that I'm standing so its really counter productive for me to continue this type of therapy.
RT- I like the incremental approach. It allows one to set goals and assess the situation on a month to month basis. I never have considered divorce at all. I only went to a lawyer to protect myself. I think initially I was devastated with the thought of divorce for the first 5 months. I no longer think about it. Maybe it helps that W has not brought it up since November. Either way, I think I'm more comfortable in my skin now.
Velika- I am going to explore more therapy options. I find it useful to talk, but I may need to find something more suitable. Even my separation/divorce group members have advised that counseling did not work for any of them. The individual that was receptive to marriage took the counseling seriously. The individual that eventually filed is the one that did not approach therapy with serious intentions. If W needs therapy, she will find it for herself.
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As a therapist myself I have to say how disappointing and disillusioning I have found counseling in this instance. My h was in counseling for a year (at least) and all it seemed to do was give him permission to leave because he can claim he "tried" but she never challenged his rewriting of history or his symptoms of depression. His mask never came off with her and even though she heard the other side from me she never pushed him. She was as much an enabler as his family. For the longest time I struggled with the feeling that I sought counseling for him/us and unwittingly gave him the courage to BD and then leave.
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My h's therapist supposedly told him he had an overdeveloped sense of responsibility and he was right for leaving and should divorce me so he can concentrate on himself.
Of course, that is his version so who knows if it what was really said.
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As a therapist myself I have to say how disappointing and disillusioning I have found counseling in this instance. My h was in counseling for a year (at least) and all it seemed to do was give him permission to leave because he can claim he "tried" but she never challenged his rewriting of history or his symptoms of depression. His mask never came off with her and even though she heard the other side from me she never pushed him. She was as much an enabler as his family. For the longest time I struggled with the feeling that I sought counseling for him/us and unwittingly gave him the courage to BD and then leave.
We 'saw' three different counsellors, but never 'did' any counselling. One MC encouraged the split (unethical) as soon as my H said he felt disconnected (I kid you not). H claims he saw an IC, and I have no illusions that would have encouraged him to follow a path of 'set-determination'. Disasters all around for the commitment of marriage.
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I don't understand either why a marriage counselor, faced with a couple where one person is clearly insisting that the other has gone a radical personality change, doesn't suggest a visit to neurologist or psychiatrist. Any medical advice you read re sudden personality changes suggests this. Why does a mental health professional suddenly choose to totally disregard?
I think until there is a "big" story on this that examines from a neurological perspective this is unlikely to happen. Still, it's a major part of the problem. I even had plenty of evidence that my H43 had undergone a radical shift and that this had happened repeatedly in his family.
I guess what you write is true, Watcher, that this also mimics a pattern in a typical split. Did anyone in your group observe a personality change? Someone wrote that this was a key distinguishing feature of MLC, but if you read "infidelity" sites you also see. Is there a difference?
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Even with healthcare escalating to psychiatric care for my xH, it hurt more than it helped. When someone is in an altered state, as long as they're not a danger physically to themselves or others, there's little the professionals can do but assist them with what they want. For my xH, I believe he was probably framing things that he wanted a life change. I don't even know for sure that he told them he was married (I sort of doubt it). I think that's what makes marriage counseling so tough to 'treat' MLC, since it's not a marriage issue - what can a counselor do but provide support for the direction the client wants to go? No one can force your spouse to stay in the marriage once they become set on leaving it. It took me years to not hold others accountable for that, but it's getting easier.
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Just want to put a few things on here my sister ( a psychotherapist ) has told me and my own therapist (who is a neuroscientist) has said which has helped me to deal with MLC.....
My therapist has also helped me with my own personal issues of co-dependency, abandonment and fixer mentality in relation to all this but I want to concentrate on the MLC element.
All MLC'ers are different as are our situations because what brings all of us here and our MLC'ers to crisis are a mix of different situations, personalities, coping mechanisms etc.
My therapist has always emphasised compassion, reminding me H is in CRISIS.
She has always said if I feel the need to rant, moan, complain, cry to do this away from H as he cannot cope with it.
She has always stressed all communication should contain rational statements, H is working on emotion so if I get emotional its like adding fuel to the fire. If my communication is rational and making factual statements its more likely to get a response.
She believes MLC'ers fall into two main groups, those racked with guilt and shame with low self esteem who feel worthless (my H is one of these) and those MLC'ers who are narcisisistc, these tend to monster are more demanding, angry, entitled etc.
As my H is the former she has always emphasised me mirroring his communication, responding to him and reminding him, where appropriate of his accomplishments and what I love about him.
She has encouraged me, again where appropriate, to talk to him about shared memories and to make communications light and loving, to remind him of what we had.
She has always told me not to chase or put pressure on him.
Sadly we don't have much time together due to OW pressure but one thing she did say to me which I think is invaluable for those reconnecting or having more lengthy touch and goes is to not push talking about serious things but to recreate the atmosphere and a reminder of times when things were different and good between us and to do things which envoke these memories, as when people are more relaxed they are more likely to open up and talk.
This is just a few things if I think of more I will put them up here
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1Trouble, these are great tips. Did she mention a good approach for a narcissist MLC? I'm starting to feel best approach is to avoid but would be curious to hear a professional opinion.
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There are only 2 things I don't agree with, otherwise great advice.
1. I don't think it's wise to avoid completely your MLCer for 3 months after BD. This is the time to pave the way. Before they go deeper into their tunnel.
2. I think bringing up the "good times" in the beginning is a mistake. They only get irritated or angry because they don't want to hear about or remember the good times. Like they didn't happen. They only want to dwell on the negative so they can convince themselves they are doing the right thing.
They will remember those good times when their ready.
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Absolutely agree with Thunder. I planted seeds of memories (wore the old perfume, tried to bring up little things we'd done here and there) and it went horribly. They can be very direct and cruel about not wanting that.
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Me too, Ready. One of the few times he snapped at me was when I started talking about good memories or fun times together.
"THAT WAS A LONG TIME AGO!" "YEAH THAT WAS THEN THIS IS NOW!"
So I completely stopped trying to get him to remember.
After a few years he remembered things on his own and we talk about them now and laugh or just reminisce.
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Thanks for posting this 1T. The things you're therapist has told you are very interesting, especially the part about treating him with compassion because he's in a crisis and the part about the two types of MLCers. I know my wife is the first type with the low self esteem.
Has your therapist said anything about the relationship with the OW?
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Perspectives on going dark from two therapists:
- If your conversations were helping to improve things, then it would be one thing, but if they aren't going anywhere and are just hurting you, there is no point.
- He is using his anger at you to avoid dealing with his own internal pain and sadness. Once you remove yourself from his projection, he will need to deal with this pain and sadness.