Midlife Crisis: Support for Left Behind Spouses
Archives => Archived Topics => Topic started by: superdog on May 29, 2014, 01:06:46 PM
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I understand we are in the minority where the MLCer stays at home throughout so I thought I would start a place for those with live ins to discuss the different ways in which we have to go about things.
I also thought there was perhaps a few similarities in those who never leave the home. I also think that never leaving prolongs things for them and for us.
There is also very little information for those who live in, the articles are written from RCR whose husband left, therefore there is little information that we can refer to, so make our own!
I haven't got enough time right now to put down exactly what I was thinking about, but perhaps others can start things too.
Back later
Sd
X
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Latching on................
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wish this was started while my h was still at home hewas a live in for 18 months then now seems to be a vanisher and has hd a few touch and goes i think but monstered quite a lot whilst at home . if i ad found this earlier i may have done things differently but not sure it would have mattered , will still read and see
hugs
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What a subject I could write a book on this and go on and on........ but needless to say I am now divorced, the house is in the process of being sold and guess what she is still here. she monsters all the time, pushes my buttons but if I stand my ground or retaliate she calls the cops (this has been done a couple of time).
I would not recommend having a living MLC'er, I have seen a lot and heard a lot, and my sanity has been pushed to the limit. Yes a lot of what I have seen has been flaunted in my face but it will soon come to an end. If you prepared to accept a livin MLC'er be prepared to be taken to hell and back.
If I had my time again one of us would have gone and it wouldn't have been me.
Lanzo
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My H has been home the entire time - 17 months post BD. He leaves most weekends to see the OW. We do not discuss his 'fantasy' life. He told me in November that he wanted to be roommates. In February he tells me to get the house appraised - I started the process of refinancing the house but when it got closer to happening H said that he wouldn't sign off on it because he didn't trust me to not throw him out! He wanted to continue living here after I cashed him out until he found something he liked - this would never happen. I don't my H leaving so I have changed my attitude about it.
I am not happy with the current living arrangements but I can't legally throw him out. I keep thinking that the OW will pressure him to move - she can't be happy about him living with me. I am happily detaching more and more and have given myself a few more months before thinking about the next step. I would move if he was able to cash me out but that won't happen either. I honestly think that H thinks that if we aren't living together I would find someone else - he is probably right.
Things have been relatively calm at home. I think on some level H is trying to be respectful and keep his 2 lives separate - he just doesn't understand how painful it is to watch. I really don't need a front row center seat for the MLC show.
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Thanks for starting this thread Superdog, great idea for all the live-in MLC/LBS's.
I am eight months after BD. H has never left. He did "threaten" a few times when in monster but never did anything. He tried very hard to get me to move by trying to convince me I was crazy and needed "lots of professional help"
H has been very difficult to live with at times. The first five months were hell. He was in monster for a lot of it and cut me off financially leaving a small allowance for food and fuel for the car - NOTHING else. This has been his main focus rather than an OW. The finances remain like that and I don't have a job at the moment and four teenage kids to support.
He has been having an EA with a woman at work but denies it. I have seen his text messages, it is definitely an affair. He is so secretive, he sees her at lunch and maybe leaves work early - I don't know. I stopped looking at his phone or asking questions. It's too hard when they live with you to cope if you constantly know all the details.
He is jealous of me trying to get a life and having my own friends. He is trying desperately to make his own friends but I suppose a middle aged man trying to get along with younger people is not a good look. He has been to a couple of parties with younger people, I can only imagine he didn't really have much fun. He takes his sleeping bag with him :o Not too sure about that one.
He is much calmer since I stopped reacting and seems "happy" to stay at home. He is really hard to read because his mask is so thick. He tries to be best friends with the kids but has backed off from this lately, I think it's too much for his brain to cope with.
Most of the time now he is acting fairly normally. Cracks appear quite often and smaller episodes of monster occur. We move house next week and he is coming too, but having his own room at his request. He says we are not separated yet and will let me know when we are ::) ??? He sees the move as a step to getting separated???? At least this is the way he thinks he sees it.
The psychologist thinks he will stay home because he is a really big conflict avoid-er and cannot sustain an affair relationship for too long because of this. He does not want another woman, in the psychologist's opinion, just validation from another woman that he is attractive and needs to hear how wonderful he is from her. This is the main difference about the stay at home MLCer - conflict avoidance apparently is a big deal.
For me, because he is at home I have made a time limit for all of this. I refuse to live for several years with a man who thinks he wants to be with someone else. It is not healthy for me or our children to see this as normal. They are also waiting for H to come through the tunnel but watching him slowly destroy the family is too difficult so a time limit is in place.
I have also been told H will probably commit suicide if I leave him - I think that's putting a big ask on me and really not a fair place to be in. It is not my crisis, it's his. He makes the choices on how he lives his life or not, it is not my decision. I can only control me and try to keep the family as happy as possible as we try to get through this mess.
H is definitely trying to make the whole thing my fault. It's the only way he can live with us and himself. He doesn't blame me as much as during the first few months, but will not have changed his mind and cannot see anything wrong with himself at all, although he has admitted in the first weeks that there was something wrong with him, I don't think he would admit to this anymore.
He definitely lives in fantasy land and believes that happiness is somewhere else but at home, but will not move out. Also paranoid about anyone finding out and puts on a huge act for outsiders and at work.
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The psychologist thinks he will stay home because he is a really big conflict avoid-er and cannot sustain an affair relationship for too long because of this. He does not want another woman, in the psychologist's opinion, just validation from another woman that he is attractive and needs to hear how wonderful he is from her. This is the main difference about the stay at home MLCer - conflict avoidance apparently is a big deal.
That is interesting ......... I can see my H in there. I never realized before what a big conflict avoider he is.
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My H has been home the entire time - 17 months post BD. He leaves most weekends to see the OW. We do not discuss his 'fantasy' life. He told me in November that he wanted to be roommates. In February he tells me to get the house appraised - I started the process of refinancing the house but when it got closer to happening H said that he wouldn't sign off on it because he didn't trust me to not throw him out! He wanted to continue living here after I cashed him out until he found something he liked - this would never happen. I don't my H leaving so I have changed my attitude about it.
I am not happy with the current living arrangements but I can't legally throw him out. I keep thinking that the OW will pressure him to move - she can't be happy about him living with me. I am happily detaching more and more and have given myself a few more months before thinking about the next step. I would move if he was able to cash me out but that won't happen either. I honestly think that H thinks that if we aren't living together I would find someone else - he is probably right.
Things have been relatively calm at home. I think on some level H is trying to be respectful and keep his 2 lives separate - he just doesn't understand how painful it is to watch. I really don't need a front row center seat for the MLC show.
xW sleeps at OM Friday & Saturday night but comes home during the day. As detached as I am I still feel the pain.
We are divorced our house is sold but she still lives here as if we are in the separation phase, she acts as though nothing has changed. All her money from the house sale is safe as ordered by the courts, she will be moving to her mother’s house, she can go now but she won't.
I can't legally throw her out. when I asked her to leave when the divorce became final she said she had to stay here so she could take better care of D12.
My divorce process has taken 2 1/2 years she accused me of dragging it out when it was really her doing. She is a high energy replayer, the start of the divorce process kick started her into some antics I don't want to recall, I have had the worst and most close up seat possible to her MLC horror show.
Six weeks and counting down to when the house sale goes through and I complete on my new house.
Enough is enough for me.
Lanzo
PS: as this thread progresses I may add some survival tips.
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See we are a whole different breed of LBS.
So my MLcer has been home with the exception of 5 months since July 2009. Coming up for 5 years. He threatened and threatened to move out, arranged a rental for 6 months and I had to literally throw him out the door, when I did he keep coming back just like the boomerang scenario. He never left us alone for 5 minutes.
One of the biggest problems for me is the whole detachment issue. They just won't let you detach. As hard as you try to emotionally detach, there mere presence in your living quarters prevent you from not being involved in some way.
Even when they direct things towards your children, you cannot avoid being brought into it even from the children's perspective. I hear it all the time what daddy has done now.
My h always denied his affair, still to this day they are just friends. They are NOT just friends. It's an EA at the very least. To be honest I don't care, an affair is an affair end of, the actions and result is the same.
My h always said he had no intention of ending the marriage. I accused him of being gutless in not telling me he wanted out, to which he replied he didn't want out. Then he obviously got in deep with the EA and it all became about how horrible I was etc etc.
I battled long and weary with him, I let him away with nothing. We had major conflict at the start of all this. Our home was a war zone. He still never left.
When he was away he couldn't have been nicer to everyone, he took me on dates etc, then when he moved back in it was back to usual MLC behaviour. I know for a fact that OW threatened not to see him again after I called her out for stirring something and he confronted her. She is very jealous of me. He physical appearance has even changed to be more like me, which freaks me out, however.
I completely concur with the conflict avoidance, my h is the biggest one going. Even if you have a difference of opinion on anything he accuses you of having an argument. His idea of an argument and mine are opposite ends of the spectrum.
I would like to know a little bit more about how this means they cannot sustain an affair relationship?
On the whole we are now two people who live in the same house. I have told him I accept my husband left me, fine and I am getting on with my life and moving on. He says he can see that, but my husband is still the in front of me. I beg to differ !!!!
I don't care anymore where he is or what he does. His life is of no interest to me anymore. It doesn't look like much fun to me from where I am standing, but then I know as he has told me that the world outside get his mask. He cannot keep that up forever.
The live in I believe has a lot to do with co dependence. I am still the mother to whom he is attached. Unless he can se me as the person I really am, then he can never be a true independent from me. That showed in his inability to live alone.
I do nothing for him, and I am not here for him on any level. I refuse to be friends with someone I cannot trust. He is just a house fixture I have to walk around. This will not go on forever and I will make a move when I know my job is more secure.
I do care about what happens to him, but have learned to see him as someone I once knew.
Sd
X
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There is also very little information for those who live in, the articles are written from RCR whose husband left, therefore there is little information that we can refer to, so make our own!
One of the biggest problems for me is the whole detachment issue. They just won't let you detach. As hard as you try to emotionally detach, there mere presence in your living quarters prevent you from not being involved in some way.
My MLCer is now 15 months in and still at home. He works from home and so I see him all hours on school holidays unless he takes OW and her children away.
I disagree to a certain degree with the comments above. The articles do talk about the MLCer who has gone but the advice about detachment, dark,dim, rule of 3 etc....... are still extremely valid and useful.
I am relatively detached from my H now and am less and less interested in what he is doing. He too has stated that he doesn't want a divorce but still seeing OW and still very much in escape and avoid.
I think you can become detached and live your life for you and be less and less affected by his actions - but that is why the advice about work, hobbies and living as though they are not coming back, apply to us even more than to those whose MLCers have left.
Re conflict avoidance - there is something in that but I do not think it is typical of a stay at home MLCer. A lot of conflict avoiders will run from the home and to the OW because they mistakenly think that it is the LBS that causes the conflict. My H is probably avoiding conflict more than he did. He never used to be a conflict avoider. I was the conflict avoider and whenever he got cross would try and calm it all down.
But then in the early days after BD I was the angry one- I shouted and screamed, I did everything I could to force him out.
And then I read a sentence from an ex MLCer which said " When my wife stopped reacting, I started thinking..." and from RCR -" Act with grace and dignity - remember Anne Boleyn - heads will roll."
I am lucky I guess in that I chose early on in the crisis, when I realised that my ability to do my job was at stake (no threat from management btw) to look after me. I was fed up of crying all the time, I was exhausted and in need of guidance because he refused to leave. So I ended up a blob on the floor of the alternative health centre and was gently strong-armed by this woman who became my therapist. All she has done is help me work on me and then I joined the dots with the articles and other books including the Drama Triangle by Catherine Holden.
I learned to stop reacting to anything he did. I also remembered something my mother said when I was a new mother - " Win the war and lose a few battles on the way. Valour was never won by anger"
I have not mentioned the R at all since New Year.
I learned a new way of speaking - one word "uhuh." This can be said in a variety of tones and works wonders in the conversations. When H starts rambling on and tries to bring up anything vaguely with the R, I say a mixture of the following " It's interesting that you think that H or what makes you think that H? and/or I'm sorry you feel that way but you know it's not true. "
I have a phrase book of just a few phrases and I have stuck to it like glue. It helps me be responsive rather than reactionary.
Now H is still at home, he works from home so when I am at home in holidays it is 24/7. I now choose whether to engage in conversation with him.
It must be working because H asked our bookkeeper " Do you talk to SnD?"
"Yes"
"What about?"
"Children, work, holidays and you occasionally"
" How is SnD - how does she feel?"
" How do you think she is feeling?"
Silence.
He has asked again yesterday and this time BK said " I don't know"
It is clear he can no longer read me and therefore by default I am getting better at detachment.
See we are a whole different breed of LBS.
I agree - we are a different breed and finding ourselves facing the MLCer daily is exhausting but I think we are the ones who can establish a line of communication that touch and goers can't.
And I think we can become stronger sooner because we have to really learn how to build our own lives in spite of the MLCer trying to pull us back in.
I think we also learn to recognise the fishbait/ hoovering attempts.
I think we also learn how not to talk about R and when to simply withdraw which paves the way for setting boundaries and increasing your ability to detach.
I agree with the co-dependence bit and realised that we were both co-dependent. I am learning not to be and he is finding that somewhat disconcerting, for when I do something that I used to talk to him about , he will make a childish comment about how I don't need his opinion. I just smile and say "You're right H. I don't. "
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The live in I believe has a lot to do with co dependence. I am still the mother to whom he is attached. Unless he can se me as the person I really am, then he can never be a true independent from me. That showed in his inability to live alone.
I am also the proud Mommy of a 17 year old boy trapped in a 50 year old body! He even calls me "Mom", with the occassional "Hon" when he thinks I am getting a little too detached. Ten months in and he is not going anywhere at the moment. OW lives across an Ocean but, she will be moving here and they will be getting a house together in May, oops, I mean April, errr, this summer, oh wait, it's September. Yes, September. For sure. :o I think she is in MLC too so, who knows if she will ever come. I do know, for sure, he will not go anywhere unless she moves over here. He is terrified of being alone. Currently, he treats his family like his consolation prize in life. OW is "plan A", we are "plan B". Someday, he will realize he already had the grand prize and traded it for door #2 - the booby prize.
He has met up with OW in person five times - I like to call them "reality vacations". He pretends he does not have a pesky wife and kids. He is a complete poser with OW - nothing like his "old" self. He conforms to "yes, dear" mode - likes everything she likes and tries very hard to impress her. She has already started in on the demands - telling him who he can and can't talk to, what clothes he should wear etc. It should be interesting if she does move here - in his fantasy, he's going to come over every day to see the kids and be here with us for every holiday! OW is not that understanding, though he seems oblivious to that fact. Well, let's face it, he's is oblivious to anything factual.
I have not mentioned the R at all since New Year.
I learned a new way of speaking - one word "uhuh." This can be said in a variety of tones and works wonders in the conversations. When H starts rambling on and tries to bring up anything vaguely with the R, I say a mixture of the following " It's interesting that you think that H or what makes you think that H? and/or I'm sorry you feel that way but you know it's not true. "
When the kids are around, I create a "fantasy" life for them - that of a happy family. When they are not present, I use the same technique as S&D - "uhuh." I don't engage in any conversation with my H, unless he asks me a question. I answer politely. I tell him nothing about my day to day life. I carry on and do my own thing. He cycles from day to day...sometimes he appears happy; sometimes he cries; sometimes he spends all day playing on his phone; sometimes he goes on a super-Dad binge...you never know which personality will emerge.
I agree - we are a different breed and finding ourselves facing the MLCer daily is exhausting but I think we are the ones who can establish a line of communication that touch and goers can't.
And I think we can become stronger sooner because we have to really learn how to build our own lives in spite of the MLCer trying to pull us back in.
I think we also learn to recognise the fishbait/ hoovering attempts.
I think we also learn how not to talk about R and when to simply withdraw which paves the way for setting boundaries and increasing your ability to detach.
It is exhausting. Walking the tightrope with a small child in each arm makes it that much more so. It is a daily struggle to stay out away from the drama our H's try to create. After a while, you can begin to see patterns in the behaviour and, armed with the knowledge of MLC from this site, begin to see their actions for what they are...even when they don't understand their own conduct.
Keep calm and carry on. When I start to get anxious, I remember one simple phrase..."this too shall pass".
-OWL
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I must say you all sound very strong and have found ways to live with your MLCers.
I lived with my X for able a year and a half after BD. It was no picnic. I moved out eventually because I THOUGHT the D was almost over and it made no sense to me to still live with him. Well, the D took another year to actually be final. My X dragged his feet for a long time.
The only thing I have to add to this is...at least your w/h gets to see you grow and change. That is one upside to them still being in the house. When they vanish it's much harder.
I think my X is pretty amazed that I had the strength to carry on without him. He said many times "you don't do well on your own, you'll find someone else within 3 months."
Well. it's been 3 1/2 years and I'm doing great on my own. Who'd a thought? : )
So they see your changes and it does make a difference.
Just be your nice self and get a life....right in front of their eyes. They'll remember what they walked away from, if and when they do leave.
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I am curious - did your MLCer ever live alone before you got married? My H never lived alone. He went from one parent to the other, lived with roommates and GF for a few years, lived with grandma, then with me. I on the other hand lived alone for several years.
Re conflict avoidance - there is something in that but I do not think it is typical of a stay at home MLCer. A lot of conflict avoiders will run from the home and to the OW because they mistakenly think that it is the LBS that causes the conflict. My H is probably avoiding conflict more than he did. He never used to be a conflict avoider. I was the conflict avoider and whenever he got cross would try and calm it all down.
My H avoids the issue whenever he can. We cannot have a conversation about anything that is not what he wants. I also was the conflict avoider in my relationship - kept everything calm, not anymore. I always thought that H and I would end up in big arguments if I didn't keep the peace - I have learned that is not the case ::)
But then in the early days after BD I was the angry one- I shouted and screamed, I did everything I could to force him out.
I did this as well which is totally out of character for me - he just stands there and takes it :o His dad says that H knows that he is wrong and he deserves my yelling and screaming so he takes it :o Nothing wil convince him to leave - I really doubt that the OW will be able to get him to leave either.
He has met up with OW in person five times - I like to call them "reality vacations". He pretends he does not have a pesky wife and kids. He is a complete poser with OW - nothing like his "old" self. He conforms to "yes, dear" mode - likes everything she likes and tries very hard to impress her.
My H actually calls them a vacation from reality :o I told him he was the one screwed reality up and he was the one that could fix it. Interesting that he doesn't think of OW as reality.
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Searching,
My X never lived alone either. He is now.
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My h lived alone for a year in london at 21.
When he left for those months he admitted he had convinced himself that if he left home like he did at 21 then everything would be alright with his world. He then admitted that the time he was going back to wasnt that great, he was sad and lonely and he spent many nights crying. I think the replay worked out exactly the same.
My h also said he was not keaving again, he would not run away again cos it solved nothing.
Now he just hides in his room.
Sd
X
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My H doesn't hide for much. He buries himself in his studio when he is not with OW which is a form of hiding but most of the time he uses the house just like he used to.
That is tough because I see him getting ready for OW but he does stick to the boundary I gave him which is not to mention her name, not to mention where he is going and to understand that I will not text him while he is out and he is not to text me unless it is an emergency.
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10+ months post BD and still at home. Has had 4 "melt down" moments where she wants to leave / have her space / out of marriage. Yet, here she is still.
After dealing with soldiers for 22 years I have an extremely low tolerance for BS and can sniff it out at the drop of a dime! The way I deal with my MLCer is probably a bit more harsh with certain things at certain times!
First melt downs, I grovelled; was still close to BD and raw. Second I was very matter of fact and told her she could go but making a mistake. Third I was pissed and tried to push her out; she cried 7 I gave in. 4th & most recent asked for a divorce and didn't want anything from me; i can have it all! Cool babe, I accept and lets sell the wedding rings too so we can pay off some debt. Yet once again, her tune changed real quick!
In between all of these, she has T & G enough to try and hang on but still have her space. It has taken me a while to realize she monsters with seduction & pity / crying. And I been falling for it every time. Cake is good and she is hungry!!!
Any time I try to go 180 dim/dark she can sense it immediately and does anything she can to get my attention. She will ask all the are you ok, what is wrong, are you mad questions. Like she don't know! really???? I blow her off until I feel like engaging her!
I think it really bothers her that I am able to get out now and do my own thing and have in fact stopped catering to her all the time. I am not always available. I do not tell her where I go all the time. I will just take D11 and go do things without her like she tried to do to me! I truth dart when I can and they always seem to hit home & shut her up!
Mean Monster - At first I was all pleasant, nice, blah blah...yeah whatever! I think it was the third time she rose up on me after we started therapy! She has what I call "b!tc# mode" and was trying to rage monster at me! I had enough; I got right up in her face, backed her into a corner, put my finger in her face and proceeded to scold her like a child! Basically treated her like I would D11 if she got lippy with me! Told her she better never ever raise her voice to me like that or disrespect me again because I wasn't taking her bull$h!te anymore! Yep, I intimidated her...and it worked! She still has b!tc# mode, but keeps it to herself because I call her on it in a heartbeat!
If she distances, I distance and increase GAL. If she is pleasant, i am pleasant. If she wants to spend time with me or an activity I will accommodate unless something I need to do! If she wants her own time / space, I give it to her. I'll do something with D11 most of the time!
I will go dim/dark or 180 or whatever works on bad behavior. Yes, I believe in punishing the MLCer for bad behavior. Dim/Dark is not just for me or my sanity; I do it to punish the $h!te out of her because she is a clinging boomerang and it works. She wants my attention so I take it away from her! If she goes shopping for stuff she don't need, and it makes the bills tight, I either make her take it back or I take money away from her and make it impossible for her to have "fun" for a while! This only had to happen a couple times. She acts like a teenager, get treated like one! We keep saying they have regressed to children / teenagers at this stage! I hear a lot about "just ignore it". If your 5 y/o was throwing a tantrum, would you just ignore it, or bust their ass? If my kids throw a tantrum on me, they get a warning and if it persists then punishment ensures! Same with the bratty MLCer; act like a little b!tc#; get treated like one! I personally don't believe this has any bearing on whether or not they will want to reconcile or affect paving the way! Just my opinion though!
OM/affairs - Made it VERY clear from the beginning this wont be tolerated! She got busted in two EA's. I gave her benefit of the doubt on EA1 after a good ass chewing. EA2 I went ballistic. Truth darted her fantasies; truth darted the affair down and how her OM's were $h!te! Told her from that point she lost all privacy and I would check her accounts anytime I wanted. If she ever denied me or changed a password she would lose her electronics/internet access int he house. Showed her the evidence I had collected on EA1 & 2. Told her if I found evidence of another EA or if I ever found out she had a PA, not only would I divorce her, but I would publicly humiliate her with the evidence! If she ever had a PA and I found out, I would have her charged under Georgia Adultery Law which is a misdemeanor and carries a $1000 fine and up to 1 year in county jail! If she wants to date or have a new man, she must divorce me. Told her this flat out and again, I wont stop her!
things I am working on:
Seduction Monster / Pity Monster - I guess when being a b!tc# didn't work she switched tactics on me and I have been a sucker for it since. I am working to stop this behavior; I am enabling her by letting her work my feelings for her! I have to stop "rescuing" her when she cries and stop satisfying her needs when she wants them (and its always only when she wants them).
Starting to be more independent and do things on my own. I am not so quick to jump on family outings or do things with her just because she invites me! I have to show her she will eventually los me!
Where am I in all this:
F**king Tired! I am ready for her to move out and do her work! I am at a point where it wont take me long to recover the loss. I am pretty sure I'll be the one that files if we divorce! I am waiting to see if a couple things happen and based on those will determine if I stay or go!
I am starting to pack things up & store them to make it easier when the time comes if that is the path I choose!
The psychologist thinks he will stay home because he is a really big conflict avoid-er and cannot sustain an affair relationship for too long because of this. He does not want another woman, in the psychologist's opinion, just validation from another woman man that he she is attractive and needs to hear how wonderful he she is from her him. This is the main difference about the stay at home MLCer - conflict avoidance apparently is a big deal.
That is interesting ......... I can see my H in there. I never realized before what a big conflict avoider he is.
There, I fixed it a bit and that describes mine perfectly!
I am curious - did your MLCer ever live alone before you got married? My H never lived alone. He went from one parent to the other, lived with roommates and GF for a few years, lived with grandma, then with me. I on the other hand lived alone for several years.
No she did not. Plucked her right out of college and mommy & daddy home! I on the other hand had been on my own since I was 17 and had already served 4 years in the USMC! And it isn't like she didn't have any time to "party" with her friends either. She was pretty wild when I met her and had already been in college over 2 years!
OBO
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Mean Monster - At first I was all pleasant, nice, blah blah...yeah whatever! I think it was the third time she rose up on me after we started therapy! She has what I call "b*tch mode" and was trying to rage monster at me! I had enough; I got right up in her face, backed her into a corner, put my finger in her face and proceeded to scold her like a child! Basically treated her like I would D11 if she got lippy with me! Told her she better never ever raise her voice to me like that or disrespect me again because I wasn't taking her bull$hit anymore! Yep, I intimidated her...and it worked! She still has b*tch mode, but keeps it to herself because I call her on it in a heartbeat!
I will go dim/dark or 180 or whatever works on bad behavior. Yes, I believe in punishing the MLCer for bad behavior. Dim/Dark is not just for me or my sanity; I do it to punish the $hit out of her because she is a clinging boomerang and it works. She wants my attention so I take it away from her! If she goes shopping for stuff she don't need, and it makes the bills tight, I either make her take it back or I take money away from her and make it impossible for her to have "fun" for a while! This only had to happen a couple times. She acts like a teenager, get treated like one! We keep saying they have regressed to children / teenagers at this stage! I hear a lot about "just ignore it". If your 5 y/o was throwing a tantrum, would you just ignore it, or bust their ass? If my kids throw a tantrum on me, they get a warning and if it persists then punishment ensures! Same with the bratty MLCer; act like a little b*tch; get treated like one! I personally don't believe this has any bearing on whether or not they will want to reconcile or affect paving the way! Just my opinion though!
If your 5 y/o was throwing a tantrum, would you just ignore it, or bust their ass?
Yep, I intimidated her...and it worked
OBO - This is really difficult for me to say because I really don't want to offend you but I find these two paragraphs rather frightening. As a parent of three D26,D23 and S16 I have experienced enough tantrums to know that ignore is not the answer but nor is busting their ass unless the law has been broken.
When my H (MLCer) has tantrums I just put up my hand, say very calmly and firmly "No I'm not playing this game." and walk away or leave the house. I just get out of his way. That works too! It saves my energy and time.
I learned this through 30 years of teaching of high school children and have met quite a few challenging teenagers who certainly try as many ways as possible to " get my attention". I have been called an "f...ing b!tc#" on several occasions - I have had a knife advance towards me and I have also had chairs thrown across the classroom. On each occasion I have found it frightening but have never resorted to violence or extreme anger or even using their language - my concern has been the other children witnessing the "attack" and as a teacher I had to remain calm.
I'm not superwoman - I would go home, shake, cry and feel incredibly angry. I had to persuade myself that I had a duty to show up the following day for the other children.
MLCers can still choose to rant and rave but, like most children, they do it for effect and to get attention. That is probably the concept of "ignore" it. By rising to the bait you are giving the child what he or she wants - your attention.
I am concerned that you feel a need to wield such power over your MLCer W. It is almost as if you are fighting fire with fire and throwing in the odd accelerant to make a point.
Is it really worth your energy? Is it really worth being so angry? You have a D11 who you clearly adore and spend a lot of time with but what is she learning from you when she sees your anger with W?
I had no idea how much our children learn from us when this crisis erupts.
My anger and utter distress in the early days turned my S - then 15- into an incredibly angry young man who threatened to kill his father, who I found one night outside H's room with a knife. He has hit walls, destroyed doors, cut himself, and much more.
When I realised it was my responses or rather reactions to H causing the majority of this anger - I had to change everything I did and from then on S has calmed down. He hates what his father has done, he sees his father daily and he knows as well as I do that when H goes out - he goes to OW and he sometimes calls him out by just a simple truth dart. But it is now never done in anger.
I think you are taking a good course of action in working on your attachment issues - she is "working your feelings" and that is why you are perhaps very reactionary. I still adhere to that one line in one of RCR's articles quoting from an ex MLCer " When my wife stopped reacting, I started thinking." That has always reminded me of the difference in responding not reacting.
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I noticed this thread and thought to myself....I have NOTHING to add here. My Ex left 2 1/2 months post bomb drop and has shown no indication of missing us or even wanting to return.....
So I have ZERO experience with a live-in MLCer. (Except for those 2 1/2 excrutiatingly painful months!!!!) At the time, I had no idea what was going on with him and I was full of guilt for having been the "worst wife ever." It took quite a while before I finally realized that this was just projection and my Ex running away from home was really ALL ABOUT HIM.
That being said....the more and more I read from LBS with live-in MLCers...the more I continue to believe that the live-in MLCer (and Clinging Boomerang) can cause more damage to the LBS than the On/Off-er and/or Vanisher.
When I first read about the contact type, I breathed a sign of relief when I believed that my Ex was a Boomerang and, although he would be gone for a while (I thought a few years.....lol) - I believed that he would Boomerang back and forth and wouldn't be gone "too far." Well, as time went on - he began more On/Off -er.....to Vanisher. It is very difficult to tell (early on from Bomb Drop) what type of contact level your MLCer will be. They can cycle around - toward and away from you - over and over and over again.
The more the LBS "reads" into this cycling - the more damage we can allow....the more damage to US.
I really feel for the LBS with MLCers at home...or with Clingers. It must be so very difficult to detach from their antics when they are seldom out of your face.
OBO - as your your post.....
As Songanddance noted in her very spot on post - your post is very concerning. It drips of anger and resentment and fear. It looks like that to me, because I have felt very much like you describe and, when I look at myself, I know that I was angry, resentful, and full of fear - when I felt those very same feelings and with thoughts of "taming" my Ex....and/or having my revenge.
Your post concerns me - as it appears to me that you believe that you have some control over what she will do or say - based upon how you treat her. Your Ex has reacted to your statements and unmasked threats (let's sell the wedding ring) in the manner that you would have hoped. Her reaction is the one that I would have wished my Ex had - when I would call his bluff. But, the truth of the matter is - YOU HAVE NO CONTROL over her. None. Even if it appears so right now....there is zero control. Zip. Nada.
We can only control ourselves. And sometimes, for me, that is a really difficult thing. I struggle with my own feelings of sadness, anger, resentment, etc. over my Ex's abandonment. Allowing all these thoughts into my head isn't good for me. It really eats me up inside. My good friend used to ask me a question.....when I would get like this. "Why are you being a slum lord?" she would ask. Why do you allow him so much space in your head?
OBO - No Contact is for us. Not punishment for the MLCer. If that is how you are using No Contact...it is likely to backfire on you.
You sound like you are really hurting....and I am very sorry that that is so. These MLCers can hurt us so deeply with their words and actions....as they can cut us deep with their lack of feelings, love, consideration, respect...etc. for us. It is shocking that these people, who we loved more than life itself - could treat us so shabbily. But, story after story is consistent. MLCers show that they really don't care about anyone - but themselves.
These are self absorbed, depressed, and confused people. They lash out at their spouse - as we are the closest to them.....just as a teenager will lash out at his or her parent.
OBO - read the articles about detaching, with love. Read about self care. Take care of yourself. Make the decisions that you need to make for your life based on what is best for you and your kids...not to punish her. Believe me.....MLCers end up punishing themselves more than we could ever punish them. They pay for it - with all they lose....much more than anything we could ever do or say.
All that anger...that hurt......you have inside you.....don't allow it to turn you into an angry, bitter, person.
It will be okay. You will be okay.
Take care,
L
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I am also of the thought that confronting an angry MLCer is not a good approach. And yes, I stepped over tantrumming children, I have 4, many, many times.
You catch more flies with honey. I have told my H in the past when he was Monstering that it obviously wasn't a good time for him to talk at the moment. That he should leave and we would talk when he was in a better mood.
NO CONTACT is stated by RCR to be for the benefit of the LBS and NEVER a punishment. To use it as such is emotional abuse in my mind. It smacks of conditional love. We are taught the Unconditionals here. My own mother used conditional love on me and my 4 sisters. Meet her conditions and she loved you. Screw up and she withdrew her love and you had to start on the bottom of the ladder to work your way up into her good graces. Her pet phrase was "if mama ain't happy, ain't nobody happy".
I ended up in a "conditional marriage". As long as H was allowed to do as he pleased all was well. When I started becoming "demanding" in his mind, I was difficult and a b!t*h. He told me he felt like he had a collar around his neck. Yet he traveled to different states to watch his favorite NFL team play and wouldn't even call me.
I tried so hard to win his love. I changed into 5 different people over the last 8 or 9 years and he didn't like one of them. I finally started changing into me. I let him go. I didn't stalk him. I quit the gym where he met his Spin instructor affair partner. I gave him plenty of space and time. He hasn't changed. He's still miserable. I on the other hand, have evolved into quite a confident and loving person.
The Focus OBO, needs to be on you and your growth. You are too fixated on your W and her cycling. You get hoovered into the drama and then lose it. I get your military background, but she is not a soldier and you are not her commanding officer. You are supposed to be a team, partners, equals. Start treating her like that when she lashes out. Validate her feelings with "I'm sorry you feel that way". It doesn't mean you agree with her, but that you are listening that she is upset about something.
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My live in wants to stay another 50 months then file in jersey a divorce could take 3 years or more she cycles constantly breaks down monsters oh we hopefully it's off to the rubber room for her I should be so lucky
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S&D, limitless, Learning,
Thanks you ladies for your responses and words of wisdom. Everyone is different and when put to the test, will handle and react to situations different. One of you mentioned my military background and you hit the nail on the head. When in doubt, counter. The best defense is a well executed offense. Touche!
When I typed my response I wasnt in a very good place and perhaps my mindset and choice of words were a bit more brutal than they needed to be. I re-read my post and you are correct...a lot of anger, resentment....maybe even a little hatred was coming through!
I do feel the need to be in control. Part of that definitely stems from being In charge of troops for 90% of my career. You are correct, she is not one of my soldiers and I cant treat her as such. Let me clarify a couple things. I have only bowed up on her like that a couple times! You are correct that it was a couple times too many but at the time I felt I needed too. I felt if I didnt put a stop the that specific behavior she would try to run roughshod over me. Other than that, I am just really firm. And no, I dont just walk away...I truth dart her as much as needed to shut her down! I understand the validation techniques....sometimes I just dont feel like validating the same crap over and over again. Sometimes the things she does hurts / pisses me off so bad I just feel like retaliating! This doesnt happen as mucb but it creeps out still so i guess I need more patience there.
The one thing I do not do is face off with her in front of D11. Even before all this crap started we never argued or disagreed in front of her. Unfortunately, she doesnt mind showing her ass whenever so in those instances, I do bite my tongue and wait until we are alone.
As far as punishing the MLCer.....we may have to agree to disagree.....or maybe its just that we "frame" it differently. Allow me to clarify.....
Punishment.....maybe that is too harsh of a term....lets substitute Corrective Action. I observe a bad behavior....I want the behavior to stop or change to a good behavior....I decide on a Corrective Action to promote good behavior!
Ok....lets take a look at boundary setting.....
1. State the offensive behavior
2. State the desired behavior
3. State the consequences (I.e. Corrective Action) that will occur if bad behavior occurs again (in other words, if you do something I dont like I am going to do something you wont like to make you stop the bad behavior and behavevthe way I want you to)
NC is a perfect example.....you go NC....there is two ways to look at it that are perfectly valid and they are both true:
1. NC is good for me because I remove myself from the toxic spew
2. My MLCer wants to talk to me but I took that priveledge away as a result of bad behavior boundary
1/2 foot or 6 inches? Either way the result is the same!
I can tell you one thing, you all have forced me to look at things and see if standing truly is for me and how long I can do it! I hope I am wrong but I dont thinkI am a long term stander like some of you! It gets harder every day to not just pack up D11 and leave her in my dust!
OBO
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NC is a perfect example.....you go NC....there is two ways to look at it that are perfectly valid and they are both true:
1. NC is good for me because I remove myself from the toxic spew
2. My MLCer wants to talk to me but I took that priveledge away as a result of bad behavior boundary
1/2 foot or 6 inches? Either way the result is the same!
I agree, good point! No difference.
I can tell you one thing, you all have forced me to look at things and see if standing truly is for me and how long I can do it! I hope I am wrong but I dont thinkI am a long term stander like some of you! It gets harder every day to not just pack up D11 and leave her in my dust!
OBO, standing or not standing, is the one thing you do get to control. You have nothing to prove to anybody. In the end, this comes down to one person and one person, only. That is YOU! Best if you can come out of it whole and happy, not bitter and angry.
You can be the strongest, toughest, bad "a$$" in the whole U.S. Military, world in fact, but there are some things, only LOVE can overcome.
Hugs Stayed
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Attaching. I will try to contribute to this topic because I am living with my MLCer wife whole time of her crisis.
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Was just wondering if we could pin point why our mlcers have chosen home.
It would be really good if RCR had any info on those who remain in the home and her take on the reasons why.
I personally think in my case it has a lot to do with my h's dependence on me. He told me early on that no matter how hard he tried he could not detach from me completely. Which shows he was trying to and finding any way he could, but he just couldn't let the attachment go.
Any ideas.
Sd
X
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Was just wondering if we could pin point why our mlcers have chosen home.
I would also be quite interested in this.
My H has never said that he wanted to leave, has never threatened to leave - he actually told me in the beginning that he would never leave me :o I took that to mean leave our relationship - that was not the case. Anytime that I bring it up I usually get monster - the last time I got "you don't get to dictate where I live!" My IC says that he was being a 3 year old when he made that statement.
I see my H as attached to me - probably not in a healthy way. He doesn't want to be alone. I have taken the whole living arrangement issue off the table. H was 3 years old when his parents split - I wonder if there is a connection.
I starting to think my H won't leave - I am going to have to deal with this.
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Wo that's interesting about the 3 year old thing. My h has made several references to age 7 but I have no idea what happened at age 7. It is clearly something that he has never wished to share, bit it has been something that has caused him trauma of some description.
My h has never been all grandiose about leaving in fact most of what he was planning was done very much without my knowledge (or so he thought !).
My h also cannot be alone, yet protests how much a lone wolf he is. I don't think so !
How do you feel knowing that someon is unhealthily dependent on you? I find myself torn if I am honest, it's kind of sweet yet kind of creepy at the same time.
Sd
X
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My h also cannot be alone, yet protests how much a lone wolf he is. I don't think so !
I have learned that many of the things that says he is he in fact is not. I had always believed that H would not tolerate my anger or disapproval so I didn't vocalize many things that I probably should have over the years - I have now know that I can freely speak my mind and H doesn't do much about it :o I think somewhere deep inside he has pain that he has yet to deal with and that part of his survival mechanisms built this image of himself that isn't really true. Kind of like our "fake it until we make it" he is just "faking it".
How do you feel knowing that someone is unhealthily dependent on you? I find myself torn if I am honest, it's kind of sweet yet kind of creepy at the same time.
I am torn as well. Part of me finds some comfort in it but I know that it is not ultimately healthy - I never saw this in my H before MLC so it quite surprising to me. I look at this journey as rebalancing journey - a lot of things in my life were out of balance.
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My h also cannot be alone, yet protests how much a lone wolf he is. I don't think so !
That is so true for my H too! Although I think he will go at some point because I just think he will.
That'll be ok though.
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I don't think they can leave, they are afraid and we, the LBS's are the ONLY stability they have. These men are truly broken, my H says he IS broken.
He has no idea what he means but he needs to stay. The psychologist I see and H saw at the beginning of MLC said he would probably die if he left.
Dramatic but maybe true? Don't want to find out but puts the pressure on the LBS.
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Dramatic but maybe true? Don't want to find out but puts the pressure on the LBS.
Actually, NO, it doesn't put pressure on the LBS. Your MLCer did this. Whether he is mentally healthy or not, is not your problem, as he will not allow you or anybody to help him. Therefore, you MUST LET GO! In fact, I am a huge believer that by NOT letting go, you are ENABLING them.
Leave your MLCer to it... he started this, only he can FINISH it ... at least for himself... YOU of course, have complete CONTROL over what you choose to do or not do.
Hugs Stayed
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Thanks Stayed,
What I meant was that a psychologist predicting that the actions of the LBS may result in a negative ending for the MLCer is putting undue pressure on the LBS to take responsibility for the actions of the MLCer, which has NOTHING to do with the LBS and is unfair to any LBS who is standing for him/herself.
I am certainly leaving my MLCer to his misery and take no responsibility for his actions, in the past, present or future. It's his mess, not mine and he is doing a great job of ruining his life all by himself, needs no help from me.
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Good for you Summer90. Psychologist's are very good at making "dramatic" statements. Obviously, they are EXTREME FIXER... or at least certainly want to make others feel like they can help a person, when truthfully, NOBODY can! Not them, or us! The person who seeks help/assistance/aid from a psychiatrist/counselor/therapist... truly seeking help, sure, they can be helped, but the truth is, they are ASKING for help... which indicates they REALIZE they need help.
Until that time... nobody can help. Nobody. When we help ourselves... WE GET RESULTS... until then... NOTHING!!!
HUGS Stayed
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Thanks Stayed,
I've come a long way from the "fixer" of eight months ago to the "leave him to his own mess" person of the present time.
Beginning to feel proud of the new me and the steps I have taken to find myself.. Pitiful left the building quite some time ago ;D
Strength and determination took over in a big way.
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That's good to hear summer90... my hat is off to you. :) hugs Stayed
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Was just wondering if we could pin point why our mlcers have chosen home.
It would be really good if RCR had any info on those who remain in the home and her take on the reasons why.
I personally think in my case it has a lot to do with my h's dependence on me. He told me early on that no matter how hard he tried he could not detach from me completely. Which shows he was trying to and finding any way he could, but he just couldn't let the attachment go.
Any ideas.
Sd
X
I believe it has to do with two primary reasons:
1) Co-Dependency
2) Abandonment Issues (probably FOO related)
I believe this is the issue with mine anyway and I think it stems from the death of her father! He died when she was 10. He and my MIL were separated and he had a GF. He was leaving to tell the GF it was over and he was going back to MIL. My wife wanted to go with him and he said no. She got angry and told him she hoped he didn't come back. While he was gone, he was hit by a drunk driver on his motorcycle and died as a result of injuries. My wife has never forgotten this; any time D11 says something mean to me (as little girls do) my wife will jump on her quickly about "be careful what you say because you never know what may happen to him" and I know she is referring to this incident. She never had closure with him. Add in the fact that that D11 was D10 when all this started and when my wife decides to show her ass on occasion, she reminds me of D11 having a tantrum! Coincidence?
Now add in the fact her step-dad (married her mom when she was 11) was a verbally and mentally abusive alcoholic that cut down her self-esteem. Also, several boyfriends who came along before me and treated her badly.
Then I come along...someone who really cared for her and the only stable man in her life. If there is a thing called love at first site, then we had it. I had no intention of getting married; wasn't looking. And then she arrived and the attraction was instant for both of us and I still cant explain it in words!
Sure, I made my mistakes along the way...but I always cared and provided for her no matter what! the military lifestyle with all the separation and deployments only added fuel to the fire! Being left alone to take care of things while I am off fighting for the cause I am sure left some feelings of abandonment and not being there!
Anyway...that's my 2 cents and how I think it applies to my situation! She has not left....she has said more than once she wants out and the last time I took her up on it! Told her I agree to her terms lets get things moving and get it over with! Still here! I have no doubt she sees me as the anchor and pillar of strength! I Have put up with everything she has dished out and quite frankly it is taking its toll as I am feeling pretty beat down right now! I know she has guilt / remorse....it's written all over her face and she either apologizes or shows some affection regularly! I think her threats are just her testing the anchor honestly!
Thanks god D11 is with grandma for 3 weeks...I can take some time for myself while wife is at the gym and other hobby / work related stuff!
Obo
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Thanks Stayed,
I've come a long way from the "fixer" of eight months ago to the "leave him to his own mess" person of the present time.
Beginning to feel proud of the new me and the steps I have taken to find myself.. Pitiful left the building quite some time ago ;D
Strength and determination took over in a big way.
Attaching too. 5 months since BD & my W and I still live together. Wish I had come across this sooner as it's a great thread. I will update my situation soon but I can echo Summer90's thoughts above. I don't feel the need to fix things & am leaving her to sort through her mess. I do believe W is a major conflict avoider & has possibly not dealt with some abandonment issues from childhood.
Anyway she has not left but in the beginning when I was frantically trying to "fix" things, the MC & her latched onto the whold "trial separation" idea very quickly.
I got out of there very quickly & it was at that point that I decided to stop all relationship talk & me trying to fix us!
Will update soon, reading with interest.
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It's a strange thing but when I first came across this site there were people talking about the book co dependency no more. I thought, well that must be me so I got the book. Whilst I read through it I realised that it was not describing me, but describing my h.
There is a checklist of all things a co dependent shows and is and he pretty much ticked every box. I ticked a handful, but they were more akin to my personality type than co dependency.
My h had done an absolute amazing job of hiding himself the whole 23 years I have known him. I am no dummy and people are my career and I never saw through it, I only saw the contradictions that didn't make any sense but nothing I thought enough of to research. They do now !!!
My h also has abandonment issues as did I.
Also conflict avoidant and people pleaser so we have the recipe for mlc and the recipe for one that stays home.
Also another question. How did you spouse relate to your children before full on mlc?
The answer from my h is that he didn't. He couldn't build a relationship with them and felt uncomfortable kissing and hugging them. My h is no worse a father now that he ever was.
Sd
X
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It's a strange thing but when I first came across this site there were people talking about the book co dependency no more. I thought, well that must be me so I got the book. Whilst I read through it I realised that it was not describing me, but describing my h.
There is a checklist of all things a co dependent shows and is and he pretty much ticked every box. I ticked a handful, but they were more akin to my personality type than co dependency.
My h had done an absolute amazing job of hiding himself the whole 23 years I have known him. I am no dummy and people are my career and I never saw through it, I only saw the contradictions that didn't make any sense but nothing I thought enough of to research. They do now !!!
My h also has abandonment issues as did I.
Also conflict avoidant and people pleaser so we have the recipe for mlc and the recipe for one that stays home.
I see my H as having codependency issues now that I more aware of the signs - H is definitely more so than I am. I have read Codependent No More and saw myself in some of it but it wasn't an eye opener like I thought it would be - I thought I would fell more of a connection to it.
I wonder how I didn't see it before too but I think I didn't see it because I needed some of his codependency's - he was filling a need that I had at the time. Like in an earlier post that we were discussing how torn we felt about our H's dependency on us - sweet and kind of creepy at the same time. When I was younger, I needed that sweet 'look how much he loves me' dependent thing - my H would do anything for me, this was something that I didn't get from my parents. I have always been very independent and I think that is something that H was attracted to in me. Over on SongandDance's thread they were discussing how men need to feel needed - I don't know that my H felt needed - I always thought it more important to feel wanted ??? I don't know that I would agree with H hiding himself - for me I think I saw what I needed to for that time in my life but as we grow those needs change and as we become more aware we see more.
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I liken it to when you need glasses and you have to hold the book way back to be able to see it clearly. This is how it is with my h. I was way too close to see what was actually in front of my face.
My mother drilled in to me as a youngster that I should never depend on a man. She absolutely depended on my dad and I think it was a warning not to be like her. I watch my neighbour who works a small part time job and he earns bucket loads she has 3 kids and parades like a princess ruling her roost and yup she is just one affair away from the street. I never want to be as vulnerable as that and have made sure by working hard that it will never be me. My strive for independence suited my h because it meant I did not ask him for much, but in true h contradiction style it made him feel not needed. I could never have pleased him either way so I care not a jot.
My job involves me being a fixer and I see enough of that every day that I get my own "fix" there, last thing I want to do is to have my work here in my home. I don't need to feel needed in that way, at least not anymore. But then I have forgotten the old me if I am honest she is gone too and this one is way better so I have decided to keep her. Lol
Xx
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My strive for independence suited my h because it meant I did not ask him for much, but in true h contradiction style it made him feel not needed.
Yup ;)
I need to look at my independence - I remember a few years back, H was teasing me that I couldn't do something for myself, I don't remember what it was but I do remember getting really pissed that he thought that I couldn't do it myself. I pride myself on being self-sufficient - maybe a little too much :o
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I was reading about narcissism and I realize that our MLCer's are being extremely narcissistic but how many of them had these tendencies before MLC? I was reading an article that talks about how the narcissist does not like to live alone and it got me to wondering if this has anything to do with why our MLCer's are still at home.
Here is the article:
http://www.halcyon.com/jmashmun/npd/traits.html
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This is a good article S4A.
When I recently researched the passive aggressive information they had renamed it as passive aggressive narcissistic disorder becuSe the traits are so very similar in many ways. So I see a lot of my in this article too.
Only one way to anger a narcissist is to take away the narcasistic supply, then sit back and watch them ramp it up a notch.
Looking back I can see my being the centre of attention, with his dazzling wit. But his wit was always directed at someone. When the tables turned and the guys at his work did it back to him he went along with the joke at the time but was furious inside and ultimately very hurt inside. He could never quite laugh at himself.
Appearances are everything - absolutely my h. But not in a materialistic fashion in the way others viewed him, he must be the good guy. He would bend over backwards for someone outside his family but never for the family itself. I watched his father do the same thing.
I am not surprised they can't live alone, if there is no one there to criticise them you only have yourself and that would never do.
It says that we all have narcasistic traits in us and I believe that, but the ugly ones are contained within our own shadows which we "choose" consciously ( once we accept them) not to act on. Mlcers have not yet acknowledged or integrated that shadow and therefore will act on those ugly traits. Main reason we find them so abhorant. We hate things in others we deny in ourselves.
I kinda don't know if this is the main reason they stay at home as others moving out very rarely live alone either.
SD
X
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It says that we all have narcasistic traits in us and I believe that, but the ugly ones are contained within our own shadows which we "choose" consciously ( once we accept them) not to act on. Mlcers have not yet acknowledged or integrated that shadow and therefore will act on those ugly traits. Main reason we find them so abhorant. We hate things in others we deny in ourselves.
This is where I get really stuck :-\ I agree that we all have narcissistic traits and my H has always been a bit on the self-absorbed side - does that really ever change though? I want to believe that H can come through the tunnel healthy/whole but based on past experience I think that I may being fooling myself that it is possible. I am going to need so much more from my H in order for me to want him back that I don't know if he can deliver. I am very torn. I am feeling so disconnected for him that I question whether I can feel a connection again.
Our H's are very similar :o
I will continue to work on myself and eventually it will all be clear to me.
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Nothing is PERFECT Searching4Answers, nothing! If your h comes out of this, he is not going to be perfect either. Better, yes, that is possible, but the man of your dreams... no. Let's be honest, we all know there really is no such creature! You will never get EVERYTHING you want... who does?
The thing is, the important traits. Respectful. Considerate. Appreciative. Loving (truly loving). Your partner may never be as compassionate and empathetic as you might want him/her to be, but even a small improvement in those area's can be enough. Can make a huge improvement over your self centered/self absorbed spouse.
You can't tell now Searching4Answers. You have to FIX yourself first. Let yourself HEAL. Then see what you think. No decisions need to be made now. No need to latch onto a ONE OPTION solution. Until you are in a better place, this is not a good time to be making any decisions.
Try not to dwell on what your h is thinking, or whether he is a narcissist or not. Whatever your h's problem is, you can't do anything about it. You are wasting valuable time that could be spent on fixing somebody you can help... YOU!
Hugs Stayed
Hugs Stayed
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Stayed, wash your mouth out, Hugh Jackman is indeed PERFECT and always will be. :-) :-) :-)
Sd
X
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Agreed - let's put it this way. I wouldn't climb over him to get to my H!!!!
My 82 yr old aunt (who is amazing) said that of her yoga teacher and her husband to whom she has been married (v. happily) for 50+ years. I definitely LOLd on that one!!!
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Nothing is PERFECT Searching4Answers, nothing! If your h comes out of this, he is not going to be perfect either. Better, yes, that is possible, but the man of your dreams... no. Let's be honest, we all know there really is no such creature! You will never get EVERYTHING you want... who does?
The thing is, the important traits. Respectful. Considerate. Appreciative. Loving (truly loving). Your partner may never be as compassionate and empathetic as you might want him/her to be, but even a small improvement in those area's can be enough. Can make a huge improvement over your self centered/self absorbed spouse.
You can't tell now Searching4Answers. You have to FIX yourself first. Let yourself HEAL. Then see what you think. No decisions need to be made now. No need to latch onto a ONE OPTION solution. Until you are in a better place, this is not a good time to be making any decisions.
Thanks for grounding me stayed ;)
I am not expecting perfection - I am looking at myself and trying to figure out what are the 'must-haves' and what are not.
I get frustrated with the unknown :-\
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The unknown's are scary. That is why even a DIVORCE is preferable to living as you are now. Limbo, is just a very unhappy place. We understand your thirst for understanding, sadly... I don't think ANYBODY, even our dear RCR understands MLC completely and the twists and turns it can take.
Hugs Stayed
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Just my bit - Hugh Jackman IS perfect - he loves his wife, respects her for who she is and stays married to her no matter what.
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Oh my yes... Hugh Jackman, is yummy!
Hugs Stayed
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That article hit my first H to a tee!!!
My current X diagnosed himself. He has Social Anxiety.
I saw a book he bought on the subject. He has no friends, hates social gatherings (sweats and gets very anxious), hates crowds and keeps his distance from any real contact from any one, except me.
I think that is why he hasn't met an ow in all this time. I don't credit myself for this because I know darn well he would LOVE to meet someone new, but he doesn't put himself out there. He tried a few times in the beginning but gave up pretty fast.
He is such a loner, always has been and all his activities are solo, like running or walking the dogs places where there are few people. Even ignores what little family he has to the point of them giving up.
I think that is the reason he never moved out. He kind of clings to the one person he feels comfortable around. Me.
Anyway, interesting subject/article. Really got me thinking.
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I'm curious about the MLCer that doesn't leave. I have realized that my H has always had some narcissistic tendencies and now he is off the charts. I have read that narcissists fear being alone and I think this has a lot to do with why my H is still at home.
For those with their MLCer still at home - did you see narcissistic tendencies in your H's before MLC/BD?
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S4A, I was not aware narcissists fear being alone. I wonder if that is why my X is asking me to move back home?
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Hi Searching4answers,
I read all the narcissistic characteristics and my H is one of them. It's unbelievable how many boxes he ticks.
My H is still at home even though he said he was filing for divorce today. He hates being alone. I was told by a psychologist that he wold probably suicide if I left because I am the only glue holding him together.
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Hi Everyone,
I don't post often, but I had to chime in on this thread because I have been thinking the same thing lately. I have an MLCer who has not left and it is no picnic walking around on eggshells all the time, although he mostly does his own thing.
The current status is no affair. He had an EA (in his head) with a younger colleague who he then kissed once at a party. This rocked his world and was the first sign of the crisis to come. Originally, I thought I'd had BD on Christmas 2013 when he told me what had happened 2 days after the party. But I realize now, that was not a true bomb drop because he was confused, apologetic, and really devastated with himself for letting it happen. He told me he felt that he was in love with this girl and it was the real deal and what he felt was stronger than anything he had ever felt for me. At that time, he said he still loved me. But he did the right thing and ended it. She wasn't interested anyway. If she had been, I'm sure he'd probably be gone by now, but he's here.
I got the "my feelings have changed" speech in February and he started sleeping in the basement in April. My H is big-time conflict avoider. If I hadn't pushed him, I doubt he would have said anything to me at all. He mostly avoids me, but seems pretty normal otherwise. Interacts with the kids, doesn't spend money recklessly, has been spending time working on his garden.
I'm not sure what will happen and when. Honestly, reading this site has made me so much stronger. I have a feeling he will stick around if I leave him alone and don't nag him or demand he talk. I've tried and I get no answers. The first time in February he said, "We don't have to decide now." on the topic of divorce, which I brought up. A couple of weeks ago, I tried talking to him and he said he did not want to talk. I got out one question: "How long are we going to live like this?" He replied that it was up to me to decide. WTF? Seriously!
I have 3 kids under 9 and am a stay-home mom, though I have kept my professional requirements current and could go back to work at any time if I find the right job. But my baby is only 18 months. I just don't know anymore.
My H is not really annoying or monstery or even mean. He just doesn't talk to me unless he has to. If I speak first, he answers, but he rarely initiates. Sometimes he stays in the basement a lot and doesn't even sit at the table with us for dinner. Other times, he acts fairly normal. I guess that is his cycling? He hasn't taken control of the finances or even made any comments about money. Things are just continuing on as always. It's like he can't be bothered.
I think the reasons he stays are: 1. Nobody else to run off to 2. I'm pretty easy to live with. 3. He doesn't want to deal with having to tell the kids. 4. His parents would be really angry with him for abandoning his family (He's Asian, so this is a HUGE deal.) 5. it's easier financially.
I let him stay because: I care for him and he was a really great guy before all this happened and I don't want to give up so easily, THE KIDS I don't want to imagine telling them we're getting a D. My greatest wish is for them to grow up in an intact family. Also, financial reasons.
What do you guys think?
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A couple of weeks ago, I tried talking to him and he said he did not want to talk. I got out one question: "How long are we going to live like this?" He replied that it was up to me to decide. WTF? Seriously!
Hi RCG - you are still in the very early days of this mess and it would suggest that you have a low energy wallower who probably won't leave but will live a completely separate and remote life from you.
My live in has been here for 16 months and the one thing I learned early on was not to bring up the R - certainly never mention divorce because it sows seeds in their heads and just " put up with it" for want of a better word.
I am not in the least surprised by your H's answer. MLCers seek control and to be controlled. My MLCer once said when I said I was not going to control his mind (BTW my T said not to say that as it puts the negative into his head) "well I wish you would control me and tell me what I should do"
It's a form of projection and only feeds their thinking that they have made the right decision in breaking off the marriage.
Just live your life for you. Do not rescue , enable or even talk about anything but the essentials. Share the parenting for as long as it lasts and act with grace and dignity. That has served me well over the last 16 months.
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My guy has social anxiety too. Never goes out and when he does its always with the same two loser friends from back in high school. When we were long distance he spent his time on his own playing guitar or watching telly, he was never the sociable kind.
This is why I'm so shocked he found an ow! Where did he even meet her? When, when he only went out without me a few hours on sat? He doesn't know any girls and has no chance usually to meet them, s he must literally be the first girl that spoke to him! Why not while I was abroad then, why wait till I got back? He suddenly wantsto go out and party and get drunk when he never did in 32 years. .. o.O
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Thanks, Song and Dance!
You are so right and I have been very independent lately. I love GALing and it feels good to do it without guilt since my H has always hated socializing. It's hard to break some habits like making dinner and stuff like that. I mean, I still make dinner, but I used to tailor it to him. I'd make something separately than what me and the kids had because he gets tired of the same old stuff. Not anymore! If he doesn't like it, he doesn't have to eat it!
Dagolark, that is really interesting about social anxiety. I'm not sure I would say that my H has that, but he is definitely distrustful of people and prefers to be by himself or just with the kids.
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Appearances are everything - absolutely my h. But not in a materialistic fashion in the way others viewed him, he must be the good guy. He would bend over backwards for someone outside his family but never for the family itself
Absolutely!!!!!
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That last statement sums up both my h and my h's father. At no point does the family come before the good guy, people pleasers they are. It's all about gaining favour elsewhere.
Sd
X
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Come on people, You will spot narcissist if your spouses was ones in first several years...
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Looking through the wallowers LBS's threads I discovered a few common issues:
1) social anxiety - mine gets migraine, a small things like the prospect of going out for a 40 min walk is a source of huge migraine, not to mention going to theatre, concerts, meeting friends, traveling abroad. Luck of absolute control over things give him migraines. Me walking the dog without a leash gives him a migraine. AND SO ON! And, of course, MLC exacerbated this issue.
2) THE escape and avoid remedy - playing candy crush saga ;D
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M-50
H-40
Bd-7/12
My H lives @ home no alienator That I know of. He drinks @ stays out late. We text each other during the day when he gets a break from work. In the beginning he wouldn't call or text back, now he always answers rite back & apologizes if he doesn't ( I don't initiate) We conversate in mornings face to face most weekend days. He's very apologetic but still still sleeps in garage every night. He is very good @ hiding but I know he's still in replay & manages to tell me how he's feeling. He doesn't spend time home on his days off he says that he tries to keep busy to controll thoughts in head that goes a mile a minute. I've read a lot of post that sometimes make me believe that one day he will cheat or leave. Although I know every ones MLC is diffrent & I have no control if he does I'm still sometimes get fearful.
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Hi all
I've been away from this site for a few months to try and get some perspective on my sitch. Things have gone from bad to worse recently.
Quick recap: BD was April 2011 so I'm 4.5 years into this mess. H had a EA with someone at work for 4 years brought about by him being made redundant from a job he loved. He was forced to apply for the only job going just to pay the mortgage etc. and he hates this job; feels trapped and worthless; feels much responsibility; want's to escape. Through my stupidity, he's still in our home (for the sake of the children - BAD MOVE on my part. Claims he wants to make it work with us (if given a choice :o :o :o) but we are not heading in that direction at all.
H claims he broke it off with OW last November-time (they drifted apart since she changed her work 1.5 years before.) Since March this year H has been in a deep depression: staring out the window all the time, no communication between us or with the kids, and really negative about everything (so not like who he was). We did have a glimmer of hope a month ago when he had a careers meeting at work which hightlighted his old dreams and ambitions, but now he's back to being depressed again. >:(
I really need some advice from you all: how do you go about detatching when you live with your MLCer? I find it quite easy when he goes away for weeks at a time, but I seem to have lost the skill recently. I am much happier in myself than at any time in my life, thanks to having recently started a company which is (finally) doing quite well, and has given me some of my old self back). But I am much happier when he's not around. (I don't know if that would change if we were to seperate/?) I am always stressed and unhappy and don't know how to move forward form it. I GAL, but find his mood/negativity/lack of care and love dispiriting when I return home and I don't know how to just 'be' anymore.
Any advice on how this can be achieved greatly appreciated. Thanks in advance...
Jos
x
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Hi Jos
I just wanted to welcome you back although it is a shame you have to be back if that makes sense . My H is not at home so I cannot really help with your question but I just wanted to pop in and say hello .
Callan
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Hey there Jos . I am going to be bluntly honest in my answer to you . Please know this is MY experience only and others ( of course) will have their perspective . Take what is usefull and delete anything that is not . First , WOW ! That is a long long time to live with MLC . Strong lady! I had my husband drop the bomb in May 2013. ( just typing it , I can feel the anxiety ). He stayed in our home until the end of September 2013 ... and I thru him out . Not for 1 SECOND do I regret that decision, in fact, it is the one and only GREAT move on my part . It still gives me a boost of personal empowerment and taking MY own life into MY own hands. Detaching while living with these men is so extremely difficult.. for me , I needed "super human " pwers I did not have. I was successful in short spurts, kept busy , read a lot , and just let him be who he was at the time but the utter ANXIETY was truly destroying me . I was afraid to come home from work, I was afraid of his silence and terrified when he wanted to talk . I was 40 lbs lighter and living with an extrememely unpredictable stranger . He was not sullen, quietly depressed and just kept to himself...he was high energy, ragefull and crawling out of his own skin in hatred for me .I was slowly dying and still struggle with physical issues related to that stress. So, I was a failure at true detachment .. until he left. Then I was 100 % expert and had zero contact with him. I remember the utter relief and I needed that for ME . It was no easy , trust me , 35 years together , but oddly it is not that hard to kick a "stranger ' out of your house . I also will add, I KNEW in my heart of broken hearts , that there was an affair . He denied it , and I often believed him and just buried the "knowing "... but it was always there . I will not have that in my life . That is my boundary , my personal choice as a mother to 5 daughters .. I will NEVER be able in this lifetime to accept the precence of another women .. I will give away my very life 1st . ( sorry, a bit dramatic.. but .. ). For those that can detach ( truly truly detach ) a standing ovation for you . It is the most difficult way to exist. So, I get an F . For my situation it was escalating . If I was able to detach , it enrages him seemingly and there was no peace . He grabbed my granddaughter in a frustrated moment and he was profoundly aggressive towards my youngest darling daughter . NO. It utterly utterly shocked him, when I told him to pack and get out . I could see the shock and I believe some of the fog started to clear that very second . He was out of the house for a period of 93 days with almost zero contact . He still speaks of the shock and horror of being asked to leave . (huh?) . I guess he thought there was a never ending tolerance for " abuse " ( my opinion ). If it truly is about working on "yourself " in detachment .. the I made the right move for MYSELF . Just my perspective and I truly respect other womens choices , as this is hell. Prays for you !
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Hi Jos - let me see if I can help here. My MLCer mostly stay at homer 2.5 yrs in( he is a clinger of the highest order and though he has been away with OW during the first 18 months and decided to live on his boat from Dec 2014 - March - he is now back home most evenings and has always been here in the daytime as he works from home. Consequently I have never had a time period longer than 2 weeks away from him)
I'm going to take your quotes apart and address them but the first thing to suggest is that you read RCRs articles all over AGAIN - much of which will really resonate with you now.
http://www.midlifecrisismarriageadvocate.com/site-map.html
I think you have to understand the stages of MLC before you learn to detach and it feels as though you are not aware of the stages or even type of MLCer he is.
Quick recap: BD was April 2011 so I'm 4.5 years into this mess. H had a EA with someone at work for 4 years brought about by him being made redundant from a job he loved. He was forced to apply for the only job going just to pay the mortgage etc. and he hates this job; feels trapped and worthless; feels much responsibility; want's to escape. Through my stupidity, he's still in our home (for the sake of the children - BAD MOVE on my part. Claims he wants to make it work with us (if given a choice :o :o :o) but we are not heading in that direction at all.
It was not your stupidity that he is still in your home. It sounds like he is a classic wallower (see MLC types). Wallowers rarely leave and usually have EAs which can last as long if not longer than PAs. The potential for excitement in an EA is so much more dynamic than the reality of the PA.
I tried to kick my H out - he left for approx a couple of days.He knew I wanted him out but he was adamant he didn't want a divorce!!
If he says he wants to make it work - he probably does but he is in MLC and action will always take AGES to follow. Yet again read the articles on touch and goes.
H claims he broke it off with OW last November-time (they drifted apart since she changed her work 1.5 years before.) Since March this year H has been in a deep depression: staring out the window all the time, no communication between us or with the kids, and really negative about everything (so not like who he was). We did have a glimmer of hope a month ago when he had a careers meeting at work which hightlighted his old dreams and ambitions, but now he's back to being depressed again.
His depression is real and it is very likely that he is in liminality. This is the phase that all MLCers have to go through. MLC is depression both covert and overt - Yet again read RCRs articles - they cover this so brilliantly.
Depression takes time as does MLC and your H is sorting his own mind out. Leave him to it. That is the start of how you detach.
Barbie's H puts her in a different position as he returned after 8 months begging for a second chance and so Barbie was not given the gift of time. She was right to throw him out but wallowers do not leave. My H refused and as we were joint owners I couldn't force him under UK law.
You can detach while your MLCer is still at home.
There are several things you can do and one of them is to stop watching your H and analysing everything he is or isn't doing. Having explained the possible stages he may be in - you now have to stop stage watching.
IT IS POSSIBLE TO DETACH whilst the MLCer is at home - you have to focus on you - not your marriage or the vague promise of maybe.
Whilst your H may want it to work - there will be a long time of nothingness. My H said in New Year that he thought it was silly to throw away 28 years of marriage with me and would I be prepared to give it another go. I said yes but there was no point in having a time deadline because I knew that he wouldn't be able to commit as he hadn't faced up to what he had done and was still seeing OW from time to time. Since then he has done nothing but remain in escape and avoid although replay is much less.
So how to detach: -
Decide each day what you and the children are going to do without "asking" your H
Read and re-read RCRs articles
Focus on something for you GAL or go and see friends, picnics, cinema - anything that gets you out of the house for a while either with the children or without.
Read and Re - read the articles.
Understand that he is in his depression and nothing you say or do will make a difference.
Read and re-read the articles
Do not feel obliged to include him in everything you do - he won't and that can be seen as pressure or pursuing.
Give him space and time
Finally behave and do as though he is not coming back - don't play at it - be it.
If you detach you will be able to lift the mood in your house and you will find that your life becomes richer and more purposeful. The longer you dwell on your H - the harder it is to detach.
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Also dealing with a wallower MLCer.
My tips to detachment...
Find a "third place" -- a place outside of home and work where you feel comfortable -- an important concept often discussed online -- just a slightly different twist on GAL. Here's a wiki link...try to get there for an hour or two at least TWICE a week.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Third_place
Go on trips without your MLCer. I've found this incredibly helpful in regnerating my soul. Some examples I've done: camping by myself, taking my son on a road trip for travel sports and extending the stay for more fun, scuba trips with a local club of enthusiasts, a concert/music festival with my sister. Some of these options are much more expensive than others -- but I considered the money saved by not having two rents as a "blessing" to be spent on keeping me sane -- that did translate to some short term debt, but its better to be sane that debt free, IMO. Having these things to look forward to are crucial.
Finally, and perhaps most importantly, I became the COLD, STOIC one in the relationship. I stopped talking about my feelings entirely with this broken person I share my house with. My feelings are too valuable to share with this selfish, wallowing ghost of a woman who used to be my wife and lover. She will have to earn that trust back. It may never come back. I always have time for a superficial conversation of the work day, or the kids school activities, meal planning, etc, BUT I have developed an inner life I share only with a counselor and a group of friends (many from here) who are much more aware of my true self than my wife could possibly be emotionally equipped to handle right now. She's broken and incapable of offering me any support....stop looking for it.
So sorry to find you back here, but I hope some of this might help you.
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Thank you to Barbiedoll, Songanddance, Elray for your useful comments, and CallanG for your words of welcome. It feels good to be supported once again.
Barbiedoll. last year I wished I could have kicked him out. I was ready to do so when he wouldn't give up the OW. But now she is gone. I know he's a very good man stuck in a very bad place and I can see the PAIN in his eyes every time I look at him. He is completely traumatised. He is not without emotion, far from it. It's just that he has trapped them all inside. I am now really glad I didn't ask him to leave.
Last night he said to me that he thinks he'd reached burnout, and I think he's right. Many of the symptoms are the same as MLC funnily enough; cynicism, depression, lethargy, hopelessness - and caused 'when you're working toward goals that don't resonate with you'. This is completely his situation. He even told me last night that some social connections at work had been severed because of his lack of 'caring' (his words). I:m wondering if he's alluding to OW???
Elray. I do most of the things you advocate. I am always taking the kids out on day trips and taking them on camping weekends etc.and I go away for 4 or 5 days camping alone when H takes the kids to his mums. I tell H it is so he can get his CV done or get some rest, but really it is because I;ve become self-reliant and and independant, and quite used to spending a lot of time alone. My 'third place' is HS, too, and I've also thrown myself into my work a lot recently.
I stopped talking about my feelings entirely Yes, I've learnt that showing feelings is definately a bad thing and so keep them to myself as much as possible now. It's funny really, but I have always been such an emotional person so I;m learning to self-soothe for the first time. ;D
It sounds like your W (and YOU) is having a much worse time of MLC than I am. Cudos to you for being able to live in the same house as her while you know she is emotionally with another man. That takes some strength of character (and a deep understanding of her problems) Your sitch has always resonated with me since I first found HS. Keep your focus on YOU and those kids of yours. Your W will surely come around one day?
Songanddance: As you say, I do feel H is in (or approaching) liminality. He is completely depressed and angst-ridden and in so much more (apparent) emotional pain than he has been in since BD. It's awful to have to live with so much pain and be able to do nothing. :(
Depression takes time as does MLC and your H is sorting his own mind out. Leave him to it. That is the start of how you detach.
I do (finally) feel that he is finally sorting out his head. A couple of weeks ago H had brief movement in that direction: he became his old self for 24 hours after having seen a careers councellor at work who obviously gave him hope and direction about his career and future job prospects. It was so nice to see. She has got H to start updating his CV , which he is doing (in between severe bouts of depression) and I sincerely hope he can get on to the right career track. That is his only way out, I fear.
Thanks for the reminder of RCR's articles. They are very good, and I have recently got back into re-reading them after a long time of just reading the forum. Once this depression took hold of H I started to re-reading them and was reminded of liminality. It's good to know there IS a progression, but it can only be seen in hindsight.
It seems I am doing a lot of what's needed to detatch but I was a lot better at it last year. H's deep depression and the changes in him it has brought has thrown me a little. But I now feel reminded and more hopeful. Newbies? TRUST the Process - use the gift of time and Focus on you. I love this, Songanddance, and thanks for the great reminder.
Jos x
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Hey JOS, my threads are private now, but my W and OM stopped everything about 15 months ago -- pretty consistent with the oxytocin 12-month high ending -- but they continued to work together at a charity until recently -- and his toxic influence was still in the air.
The karma bus came along and he was publicly humiliated and busted stealing from the charity -- what a champ -- he no longer works or lives in the area.
Wallowing, Depression, Anxiety, and many other MLC symptoms persist, but she's slowly recovering and attempting to reconnect. First with the kids, and later -- about a year later -- even with me.
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Wow, Elray. Sounds like you and your W are making progress. That's fantastic news. I remember contacting you last Oct and things were still really bad between you both, so things must have moved on since then. I;m so pleased for you.
I have a feeling H is is liminality at the moment. He is SO depressed (since March this year) and I can literally see the fear and hopelessness in his eyes. He never communicates except about trivialities, and he's SOOOOO exhausted all the time. At least he's started sleeping a bit more than in the past 5 years and is tentatilvely moving towards getting a new job/career.
I am still learning to go with the process and trust in it and what it brings. It is hard, but I believe we, too, are moving in the right direction. Let's hope we both make it to purple on the community board. :P
Thanks for updating me on your sitch. I;m really pleased for you.
Jos
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Hi jos,
It's really hard when they look so sad and pathetic. You want to help, but you know you just can't.
The only thing that works for me is to treat my H like another body in the house, almost like an adult child. I am lucky that my kids are D18 and S16, so they can take care of themselves if needed. My H sleeps in the spare room, and has since February of this year. I suspect he was in MLC for 2.5 years before that, but I continued on with my life as I knew nothing of MLC. No OW to my knowledge, but I do suspect a one sided EA with someone from work that he became disenchanted with in December last year.
I don't talk about emotions, ever. I don't let him disrespect anyone in the house. I insist on common courtesy. If he does not tell me where he is, I don't tell him where I am (and if the kids are with me, he won't know where they are either). I let him sleep until noon on weekends and go to bed at 7PM if he wants, but don't modify my schedule because of it (the washing machine and dryer are on the same wall as the head of his bed). If he's not home by the time I clean up the kitchen from dinner, I put the food in the fridge and let him know it is there. I do not change my schedule for anything he wants unless it is something I want as well. I am in the process of recovering the couch and loveseat and don't care if he has no place to sit.
In the past week we have been having discussions that end in acceptable compromises for both of us, where these same discussions were arguments with no resolution before. While he brought one slurpee for D,S and me to share while he got himself a whole one, that is still a good step in the "consideration for others" department. He has been extra nice to the 9 year old guinea pig and cleaned it's cage (That has always been my job by default, with help from the kids). He actually passed along invitations to get-togethers, where he hasn't for 2 years. I take none of that as anything truly positive. It just is.
I do know that when my H feels too close to me, he backs away the next day. I do look at that as a good sign. At least he cares enough to worry about it.
If I could tell you anything, it would be to live your life as you would if your H were not there, being polite a courteous, and placing no importance on anything he does until the day he come to you and says "I can't believe what I have done. Is there any chance for us and if so, what do I need to do to make this right?" JMO, of course.
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Jos,
I think the hardest part is expectation.. As they start to come back you find out you won the "most broken person ever" award. Takes a long time I suppose to get to a good place.
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Hi JOS!
I am still living with my H. some days are easy, some are hard. BUT, I do notice the less interested I seem in him the more he wants to share with me and know where I am. SMH
You have been given some great advice here. Find somewhere that you can hang our and have fun and laugh. I have a friend that has me over from time to time and I take the kids to see my niece and her little boy on the weekends. It helps keep the kids and I sane.
Keep your interactions as minimal as you can. It seems as though you are doing a pretty good job. You mentioned that you felt happier when he was not around. To me, that sounds like you are getting to a good place. I am newer however, so I could be wrong. BUT, to me it looks like you are doing pretty good.
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Elray
I think the hardest part is expectation. That's the same no matter where you are in this shs!t.
Hi Hopingpraying. BUT, I do notice the less interested I seem in him the more he wants to share with me and know where I am.
My MLCer is so deep in his depression funk that he doesn't seem to know if I'm there or not. Hopefully this will pass in the next few months. It's kinda comforting to know (once you believe it) that there is a process at work here and you just need to trust in it. I have days when I do trust in it, and on the whole, looking back over the past 4.5 years I can see progress. At least our Hs are comfortable enough being in the same house as us! That must be a very disguised blessing, IMO!!!
Thanks for stopping by and giving me your take Hopingpraying. Will catch up on your thread soon. It's great to hear from people who have live-at-home MLCers, facing all the same sh!t I am.
Jos x
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Offroad. Sounds like you have your MLCer sussed and under control. You seem to be able to look at this thing fom a place of dispassion and distance, and behave accordingly. That's gret. It's a shame I can't do that after 4.5 years. I think I take a long time to learn. :-\ But I;m getting there. :P
Jos
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Elray. I was intrigued by your last comment.
Wallowing, Depression, Anxiety, and many other MLC symptoms persist, but she's slowly recovering and attempting to reconnect. First with the kids, and later -- about a year later -- even with me.
You say your messages are now private, but I'd really like to know in what form your Ws attempts at reconnecting are taking. It would be really useful to know if I am experiencing the same efforts here. It is so difficult to tell as I;m too close to this, but I can always recognise those same attempts in another persons story.
If you'd prefer to not say,that's fine. You could always PM me if you'd prefer
x
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Thanks for all your great advice, guys.
Quick update: Things have been such a lot better since I had a lot of advice reminding me how to detach. As soon as I started focussing (again) on my own life and not his, things have been a lot more manageable. I've even had a few normal adult conversations with him this week. Result. ;D
I'm so glad I've been reminded to turn off all expectations. Since doing so, I suppose H must have stopped feeling so pressurised, because he's being a bit more open about his emotional distress (feeling useless, past his prime, too old to do anything worthwhile, depressed about his future career (or lack thereof)......
Observations:
I am getting glimpses of him thinking about his future. (He asked me today what I thought about my new-found self-employment and I think that was because he's finally thinking of taking the plunge to do it himself. :)
I mentioned a couple of posts ago that he was finally getting round to update his CV with the hopes of finding a job more suited to his skills and interests. He is still doing this, and has even sent me a copy of 2 (different) CVs and accepted my advice on how to improve them. 8) RESULT.
He's planning a couple of sick days next week (unheard of) so that he do more work on the CVs and get them off to agencies soon. He has July 1st as a deadline as he'll see his careers advisor on that date.
He's talking about having an online course written and set up by that date too - something he's been talking about for YEARS, and which will be the first step to becoming self employed (his dream).
I think he may be seeing a glimmer of light at the end of the tunnel...... This deep depression certainly seems to be the time they start to make the changes. It's quite interesting to see all of RCRs work coming into play. Thank God for HS. It has truly helped me keep my sanity!
Thanks for listening to my observations. It's good to be able to see some positives and forward movement. I hope you're all having some of these, too. :)
Jos
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Just a bit of journalling:
H is applying for a job in Barcelona.(we live in the UK). Not sure it's because he's trying to 'escape', or if it's a positive movement forward. Could go either way.
One thing's for sure: if he gets the job(or one like it), I will be unable to do my job. I am self employed and work mainly weekends and evenings so I rely on him to look after the kids on those days as we have no family in the area.
The irony is that he always blamed his MLC on me because I haven't worked for 10 years, leaving him with all financial responsibilities. Now I do work and contribute financially, its still not making him happy. :o :o :o It must have escaped his attention that those 10 years were spent bringing up his 3 kids, (one of whom is autistic) and not drinking coffee and eating cake all day. :P
This stinks. :( I lOVE my job.
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Journalling again: Why is it that everyone talks about the MLCer advancing towards them whenever the LBS pulls away? I have never had that. It has always been the case for me that when I pull away H pulls away, too. It's like he has no idea why I have to distance myself from him.
He mentioned (again) this morning about the last 3 holidays we've had with the kids, and how awful they were. (He seems to have forgotten that he was still with OW so I had to distance myself completely just to survive mentally. I only went along for the sake of the kids and the 'family unit'). So he acts really hurt when I distance myself, and seems to have no idea why I do so. :o How can this be? Then he'll comment on how separate and distanced we have become. :o :o :o I know this is MLC but is this normal???
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So he acts really hurt when I distance myself, and seems to have no idea why I do so. :o How can this be? Then he'll comment on how separate and distanced we have become
But that's it - he is pursuing by drawing attention to the fact that he is "really hurt". That draws you in and off he goes again. Pursuit and distance is not always physical - it's emotional and psychological too.
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OMG! We are half a world apart and I can see so many similarities in our stories! My H told me I was upset about losing my "free meal ticket" and not upset due to love or loyalty. ::) Yeah, he TOLD me to stay home and raise the kids! Why do they blame us? And for Gods sake it is not like we do nothing all day. Chores need done and errands need ran and kids need shuffled from one place to the next. ::)
That sucks about his job choice. I wonder if he has plans for you to go with him? :-\ I hope he decides on something more local.
(((Hugs)))) sorry he is not realizing he is the reason for the distance.
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Songanddance
he is pursuing by drawing attention to the fact that he is "really hurt". That draws you in and off he goes again. Pursuit and distance is not always physical - it's emotional and psychological too.
Thanks for the reminder that this is all such normal behaviour in MLC world.
Do you know where I can find info regarding distancing/pursuing in RCRs notes. I need to start studying again. ;D
Hopingpraying: My H told me I was upset about losing my "free meal ticket" and not upset due to love or loyalty. LOL. If my H had put it so bluntly, I think I would have punched him. :P I;m getting irate just reading that.
That sucks about his job choice. I wonder if he has plans for you to go with him? :-\ I hope he decides on something more local.
Actually, I don't hope he stays more local. I think I want him to go. I think a year or 2 apart would be REALLY good for us. At least I;d be fine. 8)
Will have to take a look at your thread. It'll be nice to have someone in a similar position to moan to. ::)
Thanks all for your take on things. x
Jos x
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http://www.midlifecrisismarriageadvocate.com/standing-actions_contact-and-communication_pursuit-and-distance.html
Try this for size Jos. If you can afford the few pounds (approx £4) then buy the full download "book" from RCR. It has slightly more detail than the website and I found it invaluable for me to pick up when I felt doubt.
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Been having computer troubles so not responded earlier. :-\
Thanks songanddance for pointing me in the right direction. Will re-read the info later to catch up. As a result of being reminded, I'm finding it quite easy again to detatch. 8)
H went away for a couple of days today (yay... ::)) to find peace and quiet at his friends empty house and work on his 'next career move'. When he told me he was thinking of going I almost pushed him out of the door ;D So now here I sit in silence and space..... Phew...
H was actually nice to me today, and I believe I got a kiss and a tiny bit of physical contact as he was leaving. ??? Very unusual behaviour. I'm not even sure I liked it. It felt alien. I'm so used to being alone now, it's strange to have attention. :-\ I love being on my own now and am beginning to crave it. Onwards and upwards.....
jos
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Pfff, we should start a thread where we can post the MLCers choices of new careers. And all those external solutions that they keep on trying.
It is difficult to live with someone who goes through this, depressing and traumatic. The transformations are many times radical and it is frightening to witness the whole thing. Anyone else feeling like this?
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All the time.
He has to try every kind of alcohol there is out there!
He needs to start a new business!
He needs to be able to come and go as he pleases!
He needs to play video games for 6 hours straight!
Oh, what about the business? Oops, dropped some of those balls.
He needs to watch TV a 14 year old would cringe at!
How about some Slurpee!
He's cold.
He can't hear!
He needs to EXCERCISE!
Everyone at his new job is incompetent!
He has to tell them how incompetent they are!
His son needs to be SCREAMED at so he wont be a loser!
What, his son doesn't want to talk to him after being screamed at?
He thought that after I started working we'd have enough money for his business!
Sorry, man, we aren't "we" any more. Did you forget?
He needs his own room!
He's afraid of spiders after at least 22 years of not caring about spiders!
Ditto heights!
How about some Slurpee?
He needs to be with FUN people!
The same people we ALL used to hang out with, who weren't all that fun before!
Wait, he forgot to file the paperwork for the business.
Hold on, the contract he signed means he's going to have to pay money to the person he is supposed to be making money from.
He SO much happier now!
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Joining the club. Thanks for starting this thread, I had no idea.
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How long has this been going on for Offroad? :-*
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My husband was home for the first 6 years of his MLC.... "thought I would lose my mind"! It would be so easy to HATE THEM, at times I know I did. He was so untrustworthy, so selfish, so unkind! Seriously, I used to ask myself, "why am I still here?" I toyed with the idea that he was having some sort of a "crisis", not much information about such a thing, other then some "old fool", who dumps his family, spends all their money on a fancy, very expensive "sport car" and takes up with some buxom, blond, BIMBO, 20 years or more, his junior. In fact, the closer they were to their "youngest daughters" age, the better, HELL, better yet, HOW ABOUT THE OW BE YOUR youngest D's best friend! Yea! "
We moved to Europe at the beginning of his 6 or 7th. year (I was beyond counting). Almost didn't come with him, accept my mother told me, "a wife's place is beside her husband"... thanks Mom! :( The next two years were amazing! Incredible, in fact! It was like the honeymoon we never had, only much, much longer then any honeymoon should ever be. WE went on some amazing vacations, ate out at amazing restaurants, drank wonderful wines, returned to old activities that we hadn't done in years, such as "curling" and heck, making love! Yea... it was incredible.
Then, something started to change. He became moody, distant, weepy. He started exercising again. He spent a lot of time over his appearance. He was later and later getting home. He was critical, nasty. Drinking heavily. He had found another woman. Somewhere in the 8th. year of his "crisis", he went over the edge. Took the plunge. Abandoned everything he believed in. Slipped deeply into the tunnel.
His crisis began slowly around 1996 and he began (the operative word BEGAN) to emerge in 2006. Crazy, Mine ran home immediately to the refuge of my strength. My strength barely handled it. So crazy, I managed to survive 6 whole years all on my lonesome, but when we began reconnecting, I had to find some help. If it had not been for forum's like Surviving Infidelity and friends like Hyperglad, I would never have gotten through it. She introduced me to The Hero's Spouse, I have been here ever since. At first learning, struggling, surviving. Now, PAYING FORWARD!
There is no way of knowing the outcome of your partner, your marriage. There is only one way of "getting through it" though, and that is by taking care of yourself, learning, be willing to change, to see your own flaws. Know what to change and what to leave alone, know that that is only done by experimenting. Mostly, be patient with yourself. If possible "laugh" at your spouse "cra cra craziness"... but please know... YOU CAN'T HELP HIM/HER! Only he/she can do that!
hugs Stayed
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How long has this been going on for Offroad? :-*
In hindsight, it started in December of 2011. My personality type is if he wants to be a bozo, he can do it on his own time, I have better things to do. It's not like two kids raise themselves. And I'd go do my own thing until he was mostly normal. So he cycled a lot until his version of BD came in February of this year, though his nasty behavior ramped up the February before. I suspect he had an emotional attachment to a person at work (who would never have encouraged him) and he had just started that job 2 months prior in 2011. She went though IVF and when she went out on maternity leave in December of last year, and never even told him "See ya when I come back", I think it sent him over the edge. When she came back and looked like the average 40 year old woman who just had a baby plus post partum depression and feeling pretty lousy, that's when he BD'd on me. And lost his job. But if he was half as nutty at work as he was at home, I can see why they let him go. I knew he was messed up, I just didn't know how bad, so it was a real shock. Midlife crisis never entered my mind, although again in hindsight when he took me to look at a sports car, I should have figured it out. But again, I told him if he wanted it, he should have it, he worked hard for his money. I'll bet he was disappointed he couldn't act PO'd at me for that. ::) But I still have it so much better than most people at the moment. If mine goes off the deep end like's stayed's did, I'm afraid I won't have as happy an ending as she did.
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This MLC stuff is pretty unpredictable. That's why it's essential for the LBS to do the work. We have to get ourselves to the place where, "whatever the outcome" WE WILL BE OK! The thing to always remember, if we work through this ordeal properly, if our spouses return, we will be in a good mental place to work with them, towards a new and better relationship then the one we had. If our spouses don't return, ever, we are still in a good enough place that we will be able to have a good life totally on our own, or if we so choose, with a new partner.
If we do the work on ourselves, whatever the outcome, will be a "win/win"!
Hugs Stayed
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This MLC stuff is pretty unpredictable. That's why it's essential for the LBS to do the work. We have to get ourselves to the place where, "whatever the outcome" WE WILL BE OK! The thing to always remember, if we work through this ordeal properly, if our spouses return, we will be in a good mental place to work with them, towards a new and better relationship then the one we had. If our spouses don't return, ever, we are still in a good enough place that we will be able to have a good life totally on our own, or if we so choose, with a new partner.
If we do the work on ourselves, whatever the outcome, will be a "win/win"!
This should be a sticky!!!
"A beautiful woman delights the eye; a wise woman, the understanding; a pure one, the soul."-Minna Antrim
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This MLC stuff is pretty unpredictable. That's why it's essential for the LBS to do the work. We have to get ourselves to the place where, "whatever the outcome" WE WILL BE OK! The thing to always remember, if we work through this ordeal properly, if our spouses return, we will be in a good mental place to work with them, towards a new and better relationship then the one we had. If our spouses don't return, ever, we are still in a good enough place that we will be able to have a good life totally on our own, or if we so choose, with a new partner.
If we do the work on ourselves, whatever the outcome, will be a "win/win"!
Hugs Stayed
I'm filing this one in the "words of gold" folder. Thanks, stayed!
It was interesting to read about your move to Europe, since I will most likely be faced with the same situation next summer. It is a tough one - something we agreed upon before the onslaught of MLC and my W wants it bad. So, if I back out, it will be thrown in my face for the rest of my days, MLC or not. (besides, I'd effectively be abandoning my kids or taking their mother away from them). If I stick to the plan, I'm certainly not making my life any easier - I'll still need to be in the US for about four months each year (business to run, luckily I can do the rest of the year long distance - our only source of income at this point) - which even BEFORE MLC seemed like a recipe for relationship trouble. We thought we were strong enough to survive that.......well, apparently that is not the case. It will be interesting to see how it changes the dynamics (either way), since that seems to have happened in your case.
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I wonder if you will get a couple year reprieve like we did Divided? It was like a "miracle" cure for us. Must have been the distraction, the newness, the incredible sense of adventure. I also wonder if that is one of the things that HELPED us to recover from his eventual affair? What I mean is, we had been experiencing an absolutely FANTASTIC time, then his CRISIS seemed to hit with an almighty force. I wonder if we were able to recover from it BECAUSE we had had this amazing "reconnection" in the first 2 years in Luxembourg, Europe.
Just wondering? All I can say Divided, you seem to have the "attitude" and the inner strength to carry on living with your spouse. The only thing I worry about is the affair. If your wife is actually involved now, getting her away might be a possible solution but I must warn you, I had/have a very good friend who moved to Indonesia with his MLC wife, who of course had an OM. It went badly. Although she really wanted to be there, she seemed incapable of breaking the ties with the OM. In the end, she returned home to Australia, he remained with his wonderful new job, and they SHARED their daughter, whom both of them love with a passion. His wife is now married to her OM.
The point is, as long as you have NO EXPECTATIONS, then you should be ok. When my h and I came over here, I thought our marriage was done. We had been struggling for the last 6 years in Ottawa, we were not happy campers, in any at all. So I guess my EXPECTATIONS were zilch!! When we had such a WONDERFUL time, my whole attitude changed. I believed we were on the mend, and if anything had become convinced that we WERE INVINCIBLE! We could weather anything! We were amazing together! Meant to be together!
THEN CRASH... the debris was scattered for miles. My heart was so shattered I am amazed I was able to put it back together again. As long as you are prepared and even if things are going really, really, really amazingly well... you should be fine. That's the beauty of forums like this, pretty much every situation has happened already, so there is always somebody to give you "food for thought"! Nothing can ever prepare you if it doesn't work out, but at least you knew it might not... or it might work out great!
Oh dang... have I said recently....I HATE MLC!!
hugs Stayed
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Just wondering? All I can say Divided, you seem to have the "attitude" and the inner strength to carry on living with your spouse. The only thing I worry about is the affair. If your wife is actually involved now, getting her away might be a possible solution but I must warn you, I had/have a very good friend who moved to Indonesia with his MLC wife, who of course had an OM. It went badly. Although she really wanted to be there, she seemed incapable of breaking the ties with the OM. In the end, she returned home to Australia, he remained with his wonderful new job, and they SHARED their daughter, whom both of them love with a passion. His wife is now married to her OM.
Oh, it gets better, stayed - OM IS in Europe! (hence the European trip together in October). Yeah, I know, to a logically thinking person it must seem like I'd be bringing her to him... The affair seems to be fizzling, although I could be wrong, have no proof of that. If all goes as planned I know I'll have a really hard time next year when I leave my family in Europe to come across the Atlantic for 4 months - especially if I'm wrong about the fizzling. I'll try to remember to trust the process. If I break my word and we don't go, surely there will be a different affair soon and now she'll feel that much more justified, because I don't care about her feelings and desires. Bit of a Catch XXII. I don't want to get caught up in preparing for every possible scenario, that would be madness. The fact that I could make things a lot worse by "serving" my W and kids to OM bothers me, but I trust I'll make the right decision if I keep my eyes and heart open. (hopefully my brains don't fall out in the process). It is slightly comforting to know that OM - when pressured about his R with my W by his wife, said: "Why would I get involved with a woman that has two kids?" Real noble and a sign of true love ???
.... agreed - I hate MLC
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It is slightly comforting to know that OM - when pressured about his R with my W by his wife, said: "Why would I get involved with a woman that has two kids?" Real noble and a sign of true love ???
WOW, sounds like a real charmer! Seriously, what can they be thinking? :o
I'm thinking you better give this idea a BIT more thought Divided. In all honesty, it is not your trustworthiness that is being questioned. I'm not sure you should be trying to impress her with your reliability and "keeping your word" and all that stuff. This sort of thing has a nasty way of BITING us right on the backside. If you do not want to lose your children completely, or take them from their mother completely, then it might be wiser NOT TO LEAVE YOUR COUNTRY!
I would get some solid legal advise about this before doing anything Divided. Also, stop making promises to her. I know you are an honourable person but honour is ONLY respected by other honourable people. MLCer's sadly have little to no honour, trustworthiness or respect for others!
Please get some legal advise about this. Once out of the country, it could be very difficult to get the children back into the country. Especially if you took them there personally and then returned to your home country for 4 months.
Hugs Stayed
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Thanks, stayed. You're right, legal advice won't hurt anything. I did look into the likelihood of preventing my W from taking (moving) our kids to Europe, and in my state the chances are not so good. The kids' well-being is the deciding factor and even though I know my W is emotionally unstable (to say the least), it would be hard to prove in court. But that's just online research, haven't talked to a lawyer.
I don't (and won't) make promises to her - I promise! :D This one was made more than 6 months prior to BD. Not trying to impress her by keeping my word (nothing I do right now will impress her, short of levitating above the kitchen table), just trying to live up to my own standards. Maybe I need to loose a little pride. Either way - thank you for the input, as always. You know I read your replies more than once. Will give it more thought for sure.
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I know you are careful, very careful and smart, Divided, but you cannot be too careful when it comes to your children. The thing is, this promise that you made 6 months before BD could understandably be considered NULL and VOID, simply due to the NEW CIRCUMSTANCE! Even in business, agreements are cancelled if certain circumstances change.
I am not for one second suggesting you go against your personal values and standards, but you certainly do not want to do anything that could jeopardize the children's well being. Your a good man. :)
Hugs Stayed
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Good luck, Divided. That brings having a live in MLCer up a notch, she isn't just live in, yours is take her to another country where the OM is actually at. I don't envy you your situation and decisions.
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That's one of the beauties of this forum, just when you think you have the worst situation EVER.. somebody comes along who makes your situation look INSIGNIFICANT!
I definitely do not envy anybody in this crap shoot! I don't know why it happens and wish there was something being done to deal with it... at least considering that it was real, would be a good place to start.
Hugs Stayed
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Another beauty of this forum for me was the realization that I wasn't insane. He really WAS behaving like a moody teenager, 10 year old, whiny baby, entitled teeny bopper, rinse and repeat. After the initial shock wore off and I realized I couldn't do a darned thing about it anyway, I knew I was luckier than most, because I got the chance to put myself together before anything really horrible happened. I may have been emotionally beaten into the ground over the previous 3 years, but there was nothing like suddenly realizing I didn't have to feel like that ever again. It wasn't me. He was lying. I never could have done that without everyone here sharing their stories.
It's the only reason I can still be here, in this house, with my crazy cycling MLCer who appears to be growing up right in front of my eyes. Having seen everyone else's story, if things start to go badly , I know to remove myself from the situation. Just don't engage. And I know I will be OK, no matter what happens in the future.
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No kidding OffRoad! It is such a relief to not have to deal with this all by yourself. I dealt with crazy boy for 6 years, all by myself. Even when I finally managed to convince him we needed some help and got us a counselor, the counselor looked at me as though I was the problem. My h sat there with that smug, calculating look on his face, during those sessions, pushing my buttons. I remember the last time we went, we had come in separate cars as we came from our work places, when we got home, he was literally GLOATING about how "even the counselor" knew that I was the crazy one. We had a terrible argument and we never went back. There simply was no point.
He got really bad after that. In his mind, the counselor had validated his behaviour. He decided that the counselor didn't blame him for being unhappy, living with such a miserable cow as that. Shortly after that he secretly started applying for jobs oversea's. He knew I didn't want to go and I think he thought I might even REFUSE to accompany him, which would have made it so much easier, as I would have been the one LEAVING. Next thing I knew, we were in Europe. Living the dream. Really enjoying ourselves, until the next time, that was.
No, I really wish this forum had existed during those times. Would have been so reassuring to know, it really wasn't all in my IMAGINATION as my husband kept telling me it was.
hugs Stayed
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I see this whole thing as a giant life trap. It just keeps on snowballing out of control. We are the victims. We don't have to act like victims, but we are.
I cannot understand the people around me. They have great sympathy for me. They tell me to RUN FAR AND FAST because they see my H and they hear what he has to say to them...they see his darkness. But, the problem is, they tell me instead of him. No one that I know of has confronted him and told him to have a look in the mirror. Everyone is afraid tget they will say or do the wrong thing. They just want to be neutral so as to be friends with both of us. They don't have much at stake here.
So he carries on, thinking he is right, everyone is okay with it, that he full of courage, full of control. He is not listening to anyone who is challenging him and his actions. I learned this yesterday. He does not want to listen.
I don't think anyone can save you. You have to save yourself.
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I don't think they can 'hear'. It doesn't penetrate until they have wound down from replay. I'm watching a situation in RL, where friends of a guy joke with him about what a floppy his OW is, and the MLCER just seems to think they are all joking around as usual. He isn't at all hearing what they are saying. One day he will be horrified that he hooked up with this OW, but right now he's just having fun, thinking their comments are humorous.
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Good luck, Divided. That brings having a live in MLCer up a notch, she isn't just live in, yours is take her to another country where the OM is actually at. I don't envy you your situation and decisions.
Right, OffRoad. I don't envy myself either - but I also don't envy anybody else on this board. We all have different battles to fight, but we're all in the same war. I want to believe that what we get from this is what we need. I'm learning a lot. The situation IS WHAT IT IS. I won't change it by not liking it, whining about it or being angry about it. Really, all I can do is accept it for what it IS. Perhaps when both the MLCer and LBS learn to accept reality, they have a chance. As to decisions, those are a little harder. Accepting the situation is the passive part, the decisions - I'll be actively making and then living with the consequences. Maybe that's another thing I need to learn - make a decision (the best I can given the facts and available options) - and never look back. No could haves, would haves, ifs or buts. Once the decision is made, it's water under the bridge. Trying to be pragmatic about it, we'll see how it goes.
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Well Divided, the decision to accompany your wife and children to Europe does not NEED to be made yet. I suggest you give it some time. Get the Legal advise you need and then decide. Until then, I would be that idea on a back burner somewhere. Who knows, maybe your wife and her OM will have broken up by then, or perhaps Om will be too afraid to leave his wife. Whatever... no need to question your integrity/honour yet.
Hugs Stayed
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Agreed, stayed. I didn't even want to put it out here until the decision making time was closer... Legal advice seems like a good idea, may be the best few hundred dollars ever spent. Other than that, it will be on the back burner for now. Things could change in a few months, although my original hopes that this might be over by next summer have diminished big time.
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I so wish I could assure you that this mess will be done and dusted by next summer, but I will not lie to you. It is EXTREMELY unlikely that your wife will be out of the tunnel, unless she is having a transition, rather then a full blown MLC. I'm not sure that a transition is better, but if you consider it to be a WARNING and perhaps do the Mirror Work and lead her towards some good, thorough introspection of her own, you might be able to prevent it from becoming a full blown crisis.
MLC is not for the "weak of heart"! Uggh...
hugs Stayed
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I am glad to see a number of others with live-in MLCers on the board. Well, not GLAD to see you all here, but you know what I mean. :) Wish none of us had to deal with MLC.
Elray, I was interested to see your comment about your W starting to reconnect with you about a year after she reconnected with the kids. My H started reconnecting with the kids "for real" (not just touch and goes) probably close to a year-ish now. While I wouldn't use the word reconnecting in regards to his relationship with me, he definitely shows signs of thawing and seems more comfortable around me all the time. I don't feel like the enemy anymore. We may even be starting to become friends again.
MLC takes such a stupid long time. I swear it feels like he has been in crisis for a hundred years, give or take.
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Just wanted to put this out there so thatanyone with a stay at home, mlc can learn by reading other people's journey, I have one and it is difficult but I am in my core now and forth first time in years my life outside of marriage is growing and expanding. Self focus is still called for but it is easier when you do not have a ball in your stomach when around mlc environment.
1. Outside my doors I am thriving both mentally and socially, in my house I am getting by and improving,
2. stay at home mlc are not very communicative, so limbo is overwhelming at times.
3. When I have the exceptional great day I am bauble of energy and I like to talk it out, hard when all your friends are mow Lbs and at different stages of our own journey.
4. I want H to leave so I can grow he is stifling, and I am beginning to believe he needs to leave for me to heal
Questions
Does any of the above resinate with you
Anyone who has gone through this with spouse at home, first I bow down and second how did you do it?
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Mine is home. Left Oct. 2012 for about 6 weeks without seeing him. Christmas time he was around. Then would come home a couple days back and forth. Went through the replay. OW discovered fall 2013. Stopped coming around when I found out and started again. He was home in March/ April 2014. Left again October 2015. Two weeks later back home. Still home.
Oh it's rough. Dead. No emotions. We have a d getting married the end of October. Try dealing with that. He's suppose to pick a father daughter song. Stressing about not having cash to help out,school,homework,life.
I try to do things on my own,which is hard. I'm a homebody. We live in a small apartment. Sometimes it's hard so I go driving.Something I don't go home right after work and sit at my d.
Sometimes I think I'm absolutely nuts. I keep to myself so people don't ask questions. I'm sick of explaining. Plus I try not to let this mess drag me down. I try to stay happy. Which I think bothers our delightful mates.
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sraya,
I stayed in the house with my H the first year or so. It was hard but I felt the benefit of it was, he got a ringside seat to watch my changed and growth. Whether you believe it or not they DO watch you.
I showed him a happy, friendly person, even if he didn't at times.
I think eventually most of them start wondering why you are so happy. Their not. What is it she is doing that I'm not?
Just like RCR said in one of her articles, they are miserable and their life is not making them happy. Be an example to him. Show him your strength. They have none.
They are drawn to strength.
Now having said that, IF you truly think you can not heal with him in the house, it's your choice to ask him to leave.
Sometimes it does help for you to get some peace and space.
Just make sure this is the best thing for YOU. Everything you do needs to be about your healing.
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Sraya, stay at home MLCers tend to be low energy MLCers/wallowers. I've merged your thread with an existing one we have about low energy MLCers. On the first post of the thread there is a link for the previous thread on the subject and also to RCR articles about low energy MLCers/wallowers.
p.s. I have actually find a more suitable thread to merge with yours, one that is about Live In MLCers. In case you want to read about the one about Low Energy MLCers you can go herel: http://mlcforum.theherosspouse.com/index.php?topic=8089.10
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My MLCer is at home from start to now. 3 1/2 years and it is not over. We are going through the divorce now.
It is very hard for me. In the beginning, when I didn't know he was in MLC, having him at home, I made all the mistakes the LBS should not have made. Because of the fact he was always around (when not away on business), sent me a wrong message. I was trying very hard to please him, please the family.... and he was treating me and the marriage like there was nothing wrong only that we were not intimate. 2 1/2 years later he dropped the D bomb citing separation as the grounds for D.
One year after D bomb, he is still here although he said on BD day that he was leaving. We both are not the arguing or quarrelsome type. Since marriage till today, we have not shouted or screamed at each other. We were like everyone else here, very much a happy family. Not the perfect one, not the one where nothing goes wrong, but still a happy family. You know what I mean. Yes, he rewrote history - he said we quarreled all the time.
It was difficult for me to think that my ever loving and caring H has done and said all these. I didn't set boundaries until few months back. Should have done so earlier. He was having it all - getting his D soon, keeping his money (or so he thought), stops giving me sufficient for my expenses and the household, goes and comes and expecting that the household is still taken care of, eats with us (I finally put a stop to it).
How did I feel? I was torn between being what I am and what I should do. It became a cat and mouse situation. He comes home, I hide, he goes out, I come out of my room. I have just changed that. I sit around the house and he hides. He only comes out when the children are home.
I don't know what I would have preferred if I had a choice of having at stay at home MLCER or one that left. Doesn't matter , I don't have a choice, he wrote the script. I can only say that I can see the some of the changes he is going through as he is still here. His replay activities are less, he is connecting with the children. And it hurts when I see my children going out with him, when I should be there too. :'(
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And it hurts when I see my children going out with him, when I should be there too. :'(
I hear that one. I want my kids to have a relationship with their dad, and I don't want to burden them, but dang, it really does hurt. Every time.
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Sahmom,
Mine did that in the beginning, too. Said we fought all the time. I just looked at him like he had 2 heads. You are certainly not talking about "US." We hardly ever said a cross word to each other threw out our whole marriage. :o
But it takes time for them to see how wrong their thinking is. It's just made up stuff in their head to make them feel better about what their doing.
They can't possibly be leaving their family for no reason. ::)
Did you fight the "separation" grounds if he never left? I think he needs to do better than that. It's a lie.
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Thanks superdog for this super post.
My MLCer is still living at home, the only time he left was for about 2 months in 2010. He has been threatening me constantly for the past few years that he intends on leaving again, but this time for good. At some stage a few months ago, I started replying to him that he`s welcome to go if he wants. Since then, he`s stopped saying that he`s leaving but that I should be the one to go.
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OR, :'( :'(
Did you fight the "separation" grounds if he never left? I think he needs to do better than that. It's a lie.
I challenged that but in the end I'll have to give in for financial reasons. :(.
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Thanks Anjae, for linking my question to this thread.
Things are still the same with H being a passive aggressive bunny. I am bubbly, probably not good but hey I am not nerfing my personality with my kids.
H stays a lot on his own, I just mirror when at home, I have finally learnt the uhmm phrase, lol it cracks me up though, but I am watching my words when I respond. No monster lately so I consider it a win.
Still separate rooms this is not what I want but accepting. Living with a mlcer is hard but after reading this thread I realised that I am doing most of the gal and detaching and I like it.
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This is the perfect thread for me. New to the forum and have had some lovely messages, but most LBS partners are separated. over the last few months we have had discussions about H moving out to rented, or not. He has promised to change, then got worse. Now he says he will not leave unless it is to buy a place; in other words he wants a divorce and half the house as he cant buy a place without his share of the MH. I won't divorce him and cant see that he has any grounds to divorce me, so we are in limbo.
I do worry about the kids S13 and S11 but I am certainly not leaving. H is classic conflict avoider. Had v troubled borderline abusive childhood so is probably also passive aggressive - certainly displays signs of it.
I would love to hear from those who are further on in the journey with tips on detaching whilst still living in the same home. I pay no attention to his comings and goings (he goes out a lot with his new friends and who knows who else) and have stopped doing his laundry, but am still cooking family meals as the boys would find it odd if we did not all eat together.
Sraya, what is the uhmm phrase, and do I need to learn it?
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The uhmm, phase is a way of acknowledgement, it is to let them know that you heard what they are saying. And it also is a way to keep your mouth zipped.
I have no monster, just passive aggressive at times, nice at times, like you I cook if I am home before him, he cooks for everyone now if I am not home. Had an interesting conversation about when I completely college, H advised me to follow my passion and not Shere the money is...... :o who is this guy, first I don't earn enough, now do not concern myself... My brain is fried. Ha
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Mine left in Oct 2012,came back and forth after a while,then home 2014. Left for 2 weeks into his own place,Oct 2015. He had found out his dad was dying of cancer. It started a mini bd all over again. Came back and he's home now.
He is NOT done. Some days I think I'm the crazy one. :P
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Aha - I see, thanks Simply (I just can't call you BS - more apt for our Hs I think).
I am the same, only rarely see Monster. H likes to take the moral high ground when it comes to money and suggests that I am the one being unreasonable (yes I am so unreasonable asking him to pay money from his business into the joint account to pay towards his share of the bills rather than paying all the bills solely from my income - as I have been doing for the last few months!!!) Still mulling over how to tackle that one...
I can only assume your H is offering you advice from the MLC bible - follow your passion and don't give a s**t about anyone else's needs, etc - when he tells you not to worry about earning any money. But then again, maybe in the warped world of the MLCer, there is another explanation? Not something I think I want to explore or, like you, my brain will get fried. I do think though that it is very important to enjoy as many parts of one's work as possible (although in the real world rather than the MLC world we do have to think about our work meeting our financial needs, without job fulfilment well-being and self-esteem is at risk). I hope you are enjoying your college work and think that it is a great way of improving your life in so many different areas. Good for you Simply!
RB, how can you be the crazy one, when he is the one doing the coming and going? We have to hold onto our sanity and know that we are the rational ones, or we will not get through this. Stay strong!
C xx
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My H is at home and tehre's not much monstering. It would be nice to have more tips as to how to go about with them at home.
For the time being, as it has been advised, the relationship talks never lead to anything good! My being nice and graceful always helps but sometimes I find it very hard to do.
More tips as how to treat them? More tips as how to detach living in the same house and keeping exactly the same routine as before BD?
For the time being the only useful way I've found to detach is reading this forum!
Good luck to all of us!
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I'm not sure my tips would be any good, since mine moved out after a year and a half, but to save MY sanity, I treated him like just another body in the house. I didn't instigate any conversations, thanked him if he brought me anything, stayed in my room or was gone, made food for myself and S17 (D20 when she was home), and if H wanted to eat, fine, if not fine, the kitchen closed when I cleaned up for the night. If H left a dirty pan, I washed it and hid it for my own use, but not his. He oddly learned to clean up after himself.
Take care of yourself. Do things your way in your timeline. If your MLCER is in your way, figuratively or physically, side step and keep doing it your own way for you and your kids. It sounds trite, but continue forward as if he is not coming back and is just some guy who lives there. Pay the bills that affect you and your kids, let him sort his own mail and paperwork. Put money in an account of your own. $20 at a time if you need to.
I also colored. A lot. And drove off road. So hobbies are your friend.
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Off road , preach hon. Hobbies are your friend . I read a lot now and not just mlc, I read quite a bit of fantasy, magic and the likes. My first priority is my girls, and now that we have a new bundle baking, tadpole and me . H can do as he pleases, I cook clean cause I enjoy doing these things, but I realise H is unable to express emotions, I know he cares but for me things have changed I care too but I llove me and my life is growing, I am excited, I have a softness back that mlc and distancing forced me to shut away so I could be strong. But my softness is my strength . light and love all, life goes on either way and gifts are abundant, even when they seem double edged.