Midlife Crisis: Support for Left Behind Spouses
Archives => Archived Topics => Topic started by: Trustandlove on November 01, 2010, 05:35:20 AM
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Hi,
There has been a bit of discussion here lately about the MLCer's guilt -- Still said that her H cleaned their kitchen, HB said her H did things like that out of guilt, etc.
My sitch is that H has on a number of occasions mentioned, or possibly let slip, that he feels enormous guilt. About a month ago he said on the phone that he had felt guilty enough over having abandoned his family, that he had cried enough, that guilt was a useless emotion and he just wasn't going to have it any more.
Because, botton line, he doesn't want to consider us staying together, and that won't change.
I also know that things that I have said have only served to increase his guilt, whether I intended for that to happen or not.
So this discussion is two-fold: one, how does the guilt work in them? In my case my H seems to keep running, because feeling guilty isn't nice, so he keeps on justifying his actions and then seeking pleasurable things that make him feel good and take his mind off it. Replay actions, it would seem.
I understand that guilt is useless because it keeps you from finding a solution to the problem. You don't want to feel guilty, so you do things to cover it rather than admit your wrong and work to find a solution.
But how does it work in an MLCer? And the second part, how do we act?
I take it that we can't say outright that the way to get rid of guilt is to acknowledge the wrong and work to find the solution. Well, maybe we can in some situations, but I think I've probably talked about things like that enough to him.
My H has said that he feels guilty about our son, so does my asking to talk about him and getting H to take more responsibility there help or just make him feel more guilty?
RCR talks about encouraging healty guilt, I'd like to hear more about that.
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T and L,
my h has never used the word guilt, but it is written all over his face...he always says that things make him feel like crap...
I would like to hear more also, he does TONS of stuff for us, and around the house etc...
sorry I dont have any great advice, but yes, there are others thinking of this very subject...
hugs and love,
L
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I've had him offer to do a couple of things but declined because I didn't want to help him releive his gulit.
I'm kind of feeling that with an ow in the picture in my situation that just simply gives them more steam to go back and contnue with her.
Also I know she's weak and I want him to see the trade off he's made for some clingy, demanding, insecure, idiot.
I've had to get stronger the last couple of years of our marriage as he pursuing other interests so for me to refuse his help has been my MO.
I don't know if that's something I should work on changing but I find it really hard to ask for help as a rule.
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T&L
My H expressed guilt from the start, i.e. from BD. He is a man consumed by guilt though. All of our married life he wrestled with demons from his childhood and young adulthood where he felt he had let people down. I know this will be eating him alive right now.
He told me over the phone and by email that the guilt is huge. That he needs time to 'come to terms' with it but feels he is not getting the time. My worry is he will come to terms with it, in the same way he has spent is whole life avoiding it, that is he will run physically and emotionally from the issue. He will pidgeon hole me and my girls as he has done his mother and other people he has felt emotionally connected to in the past.
I don't like to hear about his guilt because I know that is an emotion he has taught himself to live with, not resolve. His coping mechanism is to run away, hence our emmigration to Australia and his perceived happy existance out there, he didn't have to face the people he felt he had hurt or was hurt by. My children and I just fall into that category now.
My prayers are that he will learn to let go of what holds him back and that he will find the peace (happiness) he has been seeking his whole life.
For what it's worth my H never saw my independence or strength as a positive. He liked that I needed him to do things but I came from a family which I could not rely on and had developed a coping mechanism of my own: self-reliance! I think that was hard for him and on my personal journey I am beginning to see how that would have hurt him. Hindsight eh!
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Yes, my H's response is to just go away, he is a prime conflict-avoider. But unlike yours, HA, mine always liked my independence and strength, or so I thought. One of the things that he doesn't want to do in MLC it take care of me -- a number of times he has accused me of just wanting him to take care of me. The first Christmas he was gone I became terribly ill. He did spend that Christmas with us; at the time I thought it would help him come home sooner, and he said that he thought I became ill because I wanted him to take care of me.
He's also said that in regards to my response to his changing job situation-- when I asked what the impact on the family would be, he said that all I was saying was to "take care of me".
Well, I thought it was because my children had picked up a nasty bug at school, and I do know that my defences were low because of all this, but still.....
But that got off the subject, unless it's also to show that he feels guilt over not, or the possibility of not, providing for us. At the same time he says he's willing to work for 5 more years, then wants the ability to lead an alternative lifestyle. I.e. w/o responsibility.
But back to guilt..... I'm hoping RCR will chime in here.....
But yes, the children and I do fall into the category of people he has hurt, so he just doesn't want to be reminded of that.
So what do we do? Does talking about the children make it worse? I've asked for a conversation regarding our son; will see how that goes.
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T&L
I guess there is just no knowing what works or what they expect from us! I firmly believe in the spewing as projections of what they see in themselves. If my H didn't like my strength I think he was really saying he didn't like how he cut off from those around Him! I dont know maybe I'm wrong but I am trying not to take on too much of his guilt! Dealing with my own is enough.
Take care and I too would be interested in other's comments here.
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I've come acroos a couple of situatons in the past few weeks where my guilt which doesn't involve the situation in letting a couple of friends down for things they needed me for tuned me into what it feels like but probably on a much smaller scale.
It's only been 4 months since BD and I'm living in another house.
I have one friend who needed her cats taken care of while she went away for a couple of days she insists that I spend the night at her house. Well I couldn't get the girls to come with me and they've been through enough but I couldn't sleep at my friends house kowning the girls who are 14 and 17 were alone at my house. So I'd leave about midnight and go back around 4 am.
Then this week another friend wanted me to spend two nights with her mother and help her feed thier animals. Again the girls would be alone one night as the next morning they were leaving for NYC with H.
I got over there the first night and the fear of leaing them alone consumed me so I broke down in a puddle of tears. My friends mom said it was OK if I just helped her feed the animals then go home. I'm only a block away from my own house.
The next night I did just fine as the girls were gone.
I know where the guilt stems from; my own childhood when my mother used to leave me alone. But even in that understanding and knowing my girls know I love them I could not overcome the fear of them thinking I was abandoning them.
I've had to tell both friends they need to look elsewhere for help in their lives as I cannot foresee when I will feel secure enough to do these things for them again.
I have very little confidence and even a less sense of security at the moment.
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I believe some of replay behavior is based on running and hiding from guilt, the rest from themselves. OW/OM are another symptom of mlc and they run to them to lesson their guilt because they too are committing horrible acts, they then can't put any guilt on the mlc and they help justify what they have done.
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But back to guilt..... I'm hoping RCR will chime in here.....
But yes, the children and I do fall into the category of people he has hurt, so he just doesn't want to be reminded of that.
So what do we do? Does talking about the children make it worse? I've asked for a conversation regarding our son; will see how that goes.
I think the point becomes is that there is NOTHING you can DO to control the MLC'er.
Have good boundaries that protect you and your children if neccessary and let them go to work on themselves.
Do not give them any reason to project their guilt onto someone else.
That is all you can do, nothing more.
MY .02
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I wonder if the capacity to understand thier own guilt ever comes into play somewhere..during acceptance maybe??
If it starts with understanding why they did what they did (or are doing what they do) and forgiving themselves first then would that ease some of it?
As far as seeking forgiveness;
I'm pretty sure if my H ever evolved enough to realize that this might help AFTER he forgave himself he might do it but his personality at present still is he has a right to his own life. Which at the present time is less happy than it was with his family intact.
Although the signs are all there that he is understanding the hurt and pain he has caused everyone in this mess in his emails and on the phone..but not in person yet.
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They are filled to overflowing with guilt... my husband has called himself terrible, vile names over his guilt. He has flat out told me that he feels ok about himself until he gets around me and then he feels horrible because of what he has done and is doing to me and the kids. This is what RCR calls "healthy guilt". It is appropriate for him to feel it as a consequence for his behaviors.
Up until about 2 weeks ago, despite my best intentions, I have ADDED to his guilt by getting sucked in to proclaiming how hurt my feelings are... by crying (can't always help it) by getting angry or frustrated. At the same time MY reactions added to his guilt, they ALSO ALLOWED HIM TO JUSTIFY LEAVING. This is "toxic guilt" if I remember my RCR coaching... What his OW does is pile emotional blackmail "toxic guilt" on top of his healthy guilt. He knows he did his part to get involved with her and now "she can't live without him,blah, blah, blah" so he feels responsible for ruining her life if he leaves her. It is a backwards, stupid argument, but that's MLC.
Now, I've had enough practice to learn how to let go, plus I've learned my lesson and seen for myself that none of it changed anything except made it worse... SOOOO, the last couple of visits, I just shut my mouth and let him tell me how bad he felt and I didn't try and fix it. I let him "own" his guilt with no judgement. Tough love is actually VERY loving. I feel enormous compassion for him and it is separate from how bad I feel for me and the kids. It is all valid and true.
As for doing things for me around the house, I denied him for some time, but now decided I don't care if it relieves some guilt for him. I only care about getting furniture moved, gas put in my car, kids taken to activities, groceries bought and cooked on the grill, screen doors fixed, and the vacuum cleaner fixed. I think being able to "do his job" at home reminds him of how good "doing the right thing" feels... I think it shows him how he can alleviate the guilt. I know in contrast, when he is asked to do those things for OW and her kid, he won't get the same "good feeling" for doing similar tasks. At first he did, she made him forget about all of his failures because she didn't know, but now she sees the cracks and he thinks she's "dumb".
I have vowed to prop up my husband's self-esteem in a healthy way for a change. I told him the other day that our car mechanic had asked about him and then he went on and on about what a great guy my husband is, what a hard worker, devoted family man always trying to do the right thing for us and just being a really great husband and how lucky I was to have him... My husband said, "wow, that must have been hard to hear. Little does he know how you probably really feel." and I said "actually, I agreed with him and told him how I knew it was all true and how much I loved you." This WAS the truth... I really did feel that way when it happened! I also have OTHER true feelings about my husband, he is human and at his very worst right now.
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I have seen a huge amount of guilt in my sitch. To begin with, I think it is over the initial choices that they make. As the journey continues, unexpected issues, such as children's and our reactions, financial implications etc, that they had not really considered, cause new large waves of guilt to hit. The whole concept of replay is to ignore the guilt as much as possible, and look for external factors to self medicate and make them feel better, and take the focus off those thoughts. As the highs from the self medication work less and less, guilt comes in more and more again, eventually leading to the depression stage where it catches up with them. This is a very slow process, and the cycle may also occur throughout replay, where mini events and guilt trips catch up with them, but it is not the overwhelming hit that occurs later.
I also see a lot of compartmentalising as a way of dealing with guilt. Trying to keep different parts of lives separate so it is easier not to have to think about the big picture.
In general, their guilt is theirs to work through as part of their journey. I think our interactions can impact on it, especially for those MLCers who cycle back towards LBS a lot, or who like to talk to LBS a lot. If we keep pointing out what they are doing wrong and how they are hurting us etc, it will increase their guilt, especially every time they see us. It does not mean we cannot say this kind of stuff, but once, not often, and with kindness during delivery, rather than with us being a real mess (and I have done both!).
Everyone will process guilt in different ways. It is not until the second half of their journey (at least two years after bomb drop) that the MLCer is in a position to really work out what they want to do with the guilt.
Its a bit similar to our guilt journey during this process, I think. To begin with, we blame ourselves totally and feel guilt. Then we blame them (and OW). Eventually we find the balance, work out our part and work through that.
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They start to have an insight into the mess they have made and so increase guilt at the awakening at the end of replay. When they slip into liminality (depression) and withdrawal the full impact of what they have done and the mess they have caused hits them full force. The guilt is overwhelming as they now realise it is their issues that have caused this not the spouse.
This is the time when decisions are made about their future. It is my understanding that during acceptance they acknowledge this and move forward with any decisions they made in depression/withdrawal stages.
Both the spouse and the MLCer have to learn forgiveness both for themselves and each other to settle the guilt and sadness about what they have done.
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I'm pretty sure if my H ever evolved enough to realize that this might help AFTER he forgave himself he might do it but his personality at present still is he has a right to his own life.
I agree with him he does have a right to his own life.
You do too.
We all have a right to our own life.
Of course if we choose to share our life in marriage, that will come with certain consequences.
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Guilt? My H seems to have no guilt at all! The ONLY inclination I've ever received that he has guilt is that this weekend when I told him I was trying to heal my heart, he acknowledged that I have more hurts to heal than he does. H has completely
stopped doing anything around our home.
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Yes this is true..the understanding I have about my life is that everything I do it effects other people in my life so I take the time to consider the consequnces of my actions no matter how small I feel they would be.
I understood that the minute I gave birth to my oldest daughter that my life and my choices would effect her. I remember crying one night wondering why someone didn't tell me this before I made such a huge decision. I realize it wouldn't have mattered; I would have had to do it anyway..kind of like what he's doing now.
I have no marriage anymore due to his wishes for a divorce but there are children to consider and EVERYTHING he is doing is making them lose respect for his choices. Especially OW.
Which in turn effects me as even if I needed back up for any issue with them whatever he says they do not listen to.
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Whatever
Your H is in early replay and therefore is 'happy and content'. He won't have any guilt yet until the rose coloured glases slip and he starts to relaise that his new life isn't making him happy but adding to his sadness.
Give it time. More patience by the bucket load........
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Whatever,
My H showed very little guilt for the first 12 months after bomb drop. I saw it after about six months, and he started to verbalise it after about 12 months. Its how replay works, at the moment he is running hard from you in the first stages of replay. Its when he pauses for a breath or gets stopped by real life catching him for a while that he will look back towards you and feel the guilt. Its a long long process.
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Do not give them any reason to project their guilt onto someone else.
OP, can you elaborate here? Of course what you say makes sense, but perhaps some specific examples?
Anyway, my H has shown guilt in cycles. I am trying to work through what it is that I do that increases "toxic" guilt, and what allows "healthy" guilt -- or what I don't do, etc.
I DO know that I can't fix it, am just trying to get a better handle on this aspect of it, as it has only now become clear that my H does feel guilty; it certainly didn't seem so for a long, long time, or at least I didn't recognise it as guilt.
Right now my H is at a point in the cycle which in many ways is like the beginning of MLC -- he is infatuated, he is again spending lots of money, he thinks that everyone should be OK with his choices. The guilt has been beaten down for now; some of it showed when he talked about our son 2 weeks ago. We're going to talk about son again on Saturday, it'll be short, I just want his perspective on one particular thing.
I like LG's thoughtful post, on what she does, or lets him do -- I now see that what I thought was reconnection, the doing of things around our house and noticing things that he hadn't for ages, was all guilt, not reconnection.
I'm sort of trying to take that attitude regarding son; I need help/backup regarding him and I need H to see that he is a parent, so I will talk to him about son rather than just get shirty and say I'll do it myself.
Also, my H felt a huge amount of guilt a year ago, but instead of working it out just went on to seek yet another OW and more pleasureable activities. I know that some of the things that I did then contributed to that, but also know that some of my responses couldn't have been better, so it really was him that decided to run again.
This really is a long, long process. More thoughts? I will try to synthesise these later.
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Although my H is in early stages, BD was less than 6 months ago I do see guilt. He cries about the loss of relationship with his D12. He asked my D9 if Mommy has had a break from them, and if Mommy eats dinner with them (probably cause I've lost weight) and when I asked to take money from his account for groceries and gas he said of course, take extra money. Definitely nothing around the house. He won't even sit down when he's there. Very nervous.
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Mine was very nervous right from the start especillay when ow came into the picture. He'd pull in the driveway unannouced and stand by the car and talk he has only come inside once to sit and not for long.
That's when he told d17 that the relationship with ow was over and he didn't get along any better with her than me..so duh... who probably has the problem here. Since this ow is obsessed with him I find it facinating that she wasn't on her best behavior regarding his wishes.
He only cries with d17. And has once with d14.
I have barely seen him shed a tear but I know he does. And I know he cries with his mother as she told d17 the night before he moved the RV the ow lives on the back property (due to her selling her house like a dope) that he laid on the couch and cried all night.
I know he's racked with guilt.
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I really don't know if my H feels guilty as I have not seen him in a month. When I do have contact with him either email or text (maybe once a week) the only guilt I see is when he tells me to tell our daughters that he misses them and loves them. Of course he has yet to tell them himself. I usually get angry when I think about how he threw us all out like trash. But then I remember to TRUST & LOVE. Being angry only hurts me and so I usually pray myself out of the anger.
I am learning patience but it is a long hard road. One day at a time and I remind myself that anything is possible with God !!
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I'm bumping this back up; I'm still thinking through the "healthy guilt" vs "toxic guilt" ideas.
For me right now it's specifically regarding kids; one son in particular -- we've agreed to talk on Saturday; I don't want to pile on toxic guilt so don't plan to tell him how hurt son is, am pondering exactly how to word what I want to ask/say about son, and how to see if he will take on more responsibility for him.
H often asks: so what do you want me to do?, meaning: just tell me to do x, y and z and I'll do it (sometimes with the added "if I can") -- he doesn't want to think of the things to do himself. So do I push for him to think of it himself? I've sort of been doing that, by saying that I don't have the answers, that I was going to continue as I am and what is he going to do.
If I tell him that son has yet again had another major major tantrum I don't know what that will accomplish. healthy guilt or toxic guilt? H's reaction once was "oh, dear". Another time it was "I really can't come now, I'm at a dinner". (that tantrum was over H not being there); he did say the next time that he wanted to do what he had promised.
Do I just say that this is what happened and what does he think should be done? or what he wants to do?
The other situation is a general behaviour of son, which is basically manipulation and pestering, but in a sneaky way. Do I take same approach?
Question in this case is specifically related to guilt -- will one or the other approach (or any other....) pile on the "wrong" kind of guilt, and what is the best way to approach this to encourage the "healthy" kind of guilt?
Does that make sense?
I guess it is also still asking about this, OP:
Do not give them any reason to project their guilt onto someone else.
OP, can you elaborate here? Of course what you say makes sense, but perhaps some specific examples?
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True guilt is not felt until they reach the awakening within Replay, and begin to see the damage they've done; like someone said the rose colored glasses begin to slip downward.
Healthy guilt is such they "own" their wrongs; eventually working through, and doing a true facing of their part in the hurt they have caused the LBS. Doesn't come until later in the crisis; Depression or even as late as Withdrawal.
The stirrings of this guilt, plants its seeds in the Awakening process.
Before then, they are aware they've done wrong, and guilt is shown; but they do nothing but keep trying to cover it all up until it literally begins to catch up with them.
This is different within each person.
Before my husband began to "wake up" to what he was doing; he didn't "act" guilty at all about anything.
But AFTER he 'woke' up to what he was doing, guilt began to stir; and it evidenced as anger every time I got near the truth. He knew he was doing wrong, but was trying to back me off, and trying to cover it all up. Yet, it all caught up with him as the affair wound down.
I saw further evidence of guilt as he navigated through OW Withdrawal; and the questioning of himself within.
It was around that time that he started cleaning the kitchen top to bottom; then starting all over again.
As OW Withdrawal passed; and he navigated forward, the cleaning ceased. THEN, as he went in to face his final fears the FIRST time; got spooked and ran backward into Withdrawal; I saw the kitchen cleaning start up again, as well as OCD behavior..the continuous washing of his hands.
After I confronted him to hold him accountable triggering his tantrum, I saw guilt come back, and the kitchen cleaning resumed; along with the OCD washing of his hands again.
I cannot exactly say what the cleaning represents except they are trying to "cleanse" something out of themselves by these actions.
I couldn't thank him; he refused to allow me to be appreciative of what he was doing...so I just went on about my business.
The guilt itself is necessary; because if they didn't suffer guilt; they would continue doing as they pleased, regardless of who they ran over.
It is ALSO a necessary component in reconciliation, should the relationship go that far, you would NOT want your MLC'er to repeat their behavior at a later time; so you WANT them to feel guilty for a time..it is also part of the consequences of their actions.
It is possible to run from guilt; but one cannot get very far, as it will catch up once again; becoming a constant companion, until faced.
It is also possible to carry guilt on the cuff; and suffer a great deal until the guilt is worked through.
Guilt is guilt, however it's suffered by the one who has done wrong. Each time the MLC'er looks at the LBS, they are held accountable and that brings on MORE guilt.
I know you can't force them to suffer any more guilt than they have brought on themselves by their own actions. Their guilt can be increased by the LBS forcing them to face their short comings; but not by much.
Nothing you can do to make them admit their guilt; most won't say much, if anything about their feelings of guilt; they are consumed with themselves, and what THEY have suffered; that is, if you allow them to get that way without holding them accountable.
You can try and hold them accountable; but you cannot "make" them see their own guilty actions, they must see this for themselves, and ONLY if they are willing to see....I think it is within the wording you would use that strikes a chord within them.
Maybe this will help.
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.I think it is within the wording you would use that strikes a chord within them.
Thank you for chiming in, HB -- I know we can't MAKE them face anything; right now it really is just about the wording in any particular situation. And I sure do know that in my case he keeps on covering it up and running from it -- he's actually said as much, by saying that it is a useless emotion and he just isn't going to do it any more.
So what are the words to use/avoid?
Some specific examples might make this clearer:
Version A: "H, I would like to know how you think son should be approached about the way he doggedly keeps on pressing about something he wants, even in the face of having been told that I/we don't agree. How he keeps on doing things on the sly, saying that 'dad and I went to check the price' of an item, even though I said I didn't want to buy him that item'." (Son can keep behaviour like this up for months and months, and remembers things for years)
Is any of that good or bad? it makes no mention of whether H thinks he should have the coveted item. Is it good or bad to ask what H thinks of him having the item in the first place?
It also doesn't ask H what he wants to do -- or tell H how I need to be supported. Should either of those be mentioned?
Other issue: There are other things son wants, but if he were to get one of those for Christmas rather than this particular coveted item he would be horrendously upset. How to ask H about that?
I don't want this to descend into an r talk or an argument. I don't want to bring up "well, if we were together we'd do this, but as we're not we need to do x", as it makes it seem like I'm OK with the separation. Or am I wrong here?
I'm asking all of these from the point of view of guilt; how to at least attempt to show him his responsibilities without giving him justification for what he is doing.
And last, is it best to keep it to this specific issue, or should I bring up general S issues -- the psychological ones? (S shows signs of depression....) Perhaps only if he asks.....
And this:
most won't say much, if anything about their feelings of guilt; they are consumed with themselves, and what THEY have suffered; that is, if you allow them to get that way without holding them accountable.
What in the behaviour of the LBS would be that which doesn't hold them accountable? Some examples would be useful..... I know I have always stated that this is his decision; is any of this applicable in the examples that I'm using, and how would that be done? Is there anything specific to say (or not say) when talking about kids?
Thank you!
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does anyone else have their MLC er kinda go back and forth between showing a bit of guilt/shame, and then right back to justifying all of their actions?
just wondering...this NEVER happened in the beginning, but the further down the road we go, the more I am noticing this...
example...I was without a vehicle for 3 months, H recently bought me one and was almost excited as I was, also seemed proud that he was able to do it...
now, he is using the fact that he bought me this vehicle as...He didnt have to help me, he was trying to be nice..etc etc...
idk...just a bit of whats going on here...
thanks, many hugs!
L
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T&L
My personal opinion, take with a grain of salt or shot of whiskey. When I tried to express what my mlc was doing to his D, it just backfired. He hear only what he wanted to hear. What I had to say was crap in his mind, I was manipulating him. I recommend not worrying about what guilt he experiences and just make what ever statement you need to make, clear and calm. He is going to do whatever he is going to do, react the way he wants, and there is nothing that you can do about it.
<<<hugs>>>
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Mercury, so true !! I know that is the part I need to let go of. Whatever he/she is going to do or not going to do the choice is theirs. The ending result will be on them. We as standers just need to sit back and take care of our childrens' hearts and ensure them that the one parent they have left is not going to leave them.
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I didn't actually plan to say what his mlc was doing to son (or any of the others); I was just going to talk about son's behaviour and issues more generally.
Right now I'm wondering if I want to have this conversation at all; I always have the option of cancelling. Plenty of time to let that sit on the stove. Otherwise in danger of over-thinking.
And LNa -- he cycles between showing guilt and being happy and peppy in his life.
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T&L, I think if the sit is not dire maybe you should wait it out. I know for myself it was driving me crazy not understanding why H isn't in contact with his daughters and I was going into analysis paralysis. I found I was backsliding from the strength I had gained. I definitely find peace from NC, don't get me wrong it's the hardest thing I have to do. If you can't go NC at least try Dim/Dark. But for me I need peace in my soul to handle all of this disappointment. I pray that you will find a little peace today and for me as well !!
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One thing I know woke him up some is both of my D's had a meltdown in front of him.
I don't think the impact of what my H was doing could really be apprecated by him until he saw it for himself. Even if I tried to descibe it to him I don't think it would have been as effective.
I had already been through three meltdowns by D17 and D14 held her feelings it in until she heard the news of the OW moving closer to the house we all used to live in then she went up there and screamed, yelled, and cried at him.
Up until then when he suggested to D17 to meet ow I pulled out the MAMA BEAR big time as D17 had been crying for three days not wanting to meet her. I was livid and screamed at him on the phone to tell her she did not have to -ever -which he did. It was the first time I'd done that since I left at the end of June this year.
I told him he needed to stop tormenting these kids. To which he replied indignantly "I'm not tormenting the kids!" :o :o
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It's nothing that dire. Really I was just wanting to find out how to approach such a discussion without piling on any more guilt; I've even asked him how I was supposed to talk about son without making him feel guilty.
At any rate I have come to the conclusion that less is more; if the talk happens I'll just present the situation as concisely as I can and ask how he thinks it should be handled.
I can't tell him much about what kids say or do in this regard; when he was here for 4 days he saw some for himself, that is what triggered his interest in son's situation in the first place.
The only reason that anything needs to be talked about in the first place is that son is starting to try to play us off one another, and I don't want that.
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The first and only time that my H has talked to his daughters since BD a little over 2 months ago was the day after he told me. He came back home to talk to the girls and my oldest let him have it with both barrels. Told him he was acting like a selfish child and none of us deserved this. My younger daughter sat in silence crying and let her big sister speak for her. Since then NC by H or daughters. I think that my H is so ashamed and guilt-ridden that he can't muster up the courage to reconnect with his daughters. On the other hand my girls say they will not initiate contact because he is the adult and the responsibility lies with him. As for me I caught wondering what the h.. happened to my close, loving family. UGH !!
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T & L,
You are complicating this too much... Just say "I would really appreciate your opinion on something.." and then ask him what he thinks you should do in the situation with your son. It works like a charm on my husband! I'll bet yours will step right in to support you without even knowing it...
Validate whatever he says with "that's a good point, you might be right, I never thought of that" and you will be pleasantly surprised. :)
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You are complicating this too much..
Yes, I hadn't intended for this discussion to go this way... :)
What you suggest is exactly what I intend to do -- I had also come to that same conclusion. I just wanted to avoid piling on the "toxic guilt".
Let go, let go, let go has to be my mantra. :) :)
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I have two mantras - NO EXPECTATIONS / FAITH & LOVE. Now I just need to walk the walk !!
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Mine are detach, detach, detach, no expectations and live as though he is not coming back. The last one I find hard to say with any enthusiasm!
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What in the behaviour of the LBS would be that which doesn't hold them accountable? Some examples would be useful..... I know I have always stated that this is his decision; is any of this applicable in the examples that I'm using, and how would that be done? Is there anything specific to say (or not say) when talking about kids?
If they do/say something you don't like; say something about it...that is one way of holding them accountable for their actions.
Don't walk on eggshells; and let things pass, if you don't like what they've done/said.
I don't have any specifics, I'm sorry to say; I simply listened to my intuition; and followed it; there WERE times within the crisis when he said/did things that I did NOT like; and I was prompted to say something, even if he came back at me...not liking what I said/did in return.
Boundaries won't work within the crisis, simply because the MLC'er is not in the state of mind to accept them in the early part of this.
Yet, boundaries are for YOU, not them, anyway.
Once you get a good handle on what is happening, your footing should become more sure; and you should get to the point where you don't care if they stay or leave....yet, this is not a point where you are angry; you are simply firm in your stand against whatever it is you don't like or care for hearing.
People will treat you as you ALLOW them to; and MLC or not; no one should put up with being run all over; there comes a time when you do have to confront, and set a boundary; mostly for your self respect's sake.
Yet, remember that once you decide on a course of action, you LET GO of the consequences; as for every action, there is a reaction, and for every action there is a consequence.
Again, you KNOW your husband better than I do; and you have a better idea of what will work, and what won't work in his case.
Your husband is far enough in this, TAL; that you don't have to walk on eggshells with him any longer; and you'll need to call him on whatever bad behavior he exhibits, especially, when it affects your children.
You've nothing more to lose; it's already been lost; EVEN though he's not divorced you or you, him.
I'd been thinking hard about this for quite awhile...and I still don't have adequate understanding as to why he's still "out there", but hasn't divorced you or made any move to do so.
I think this falls in line of "doing something different".
Something to think about.
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I guess that means that I have to say something about him having OW with them on holiday..... I had kind of decided not to; perhaps because it just felt so pointless. It's not going to make any difference.
More on my own thread....
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I really don't know if my H has any guilt at all. I haven't spoken with him directly in the last month or so. I'm sure he does but I know that he always avoids his feelings. Right now I'm mad at him because he "forgot" to send me my water bill. I'm sure when he got it he just put that out of his mind too. If I hadn't called the water co. myself our water would have been shut off next week without me knowing about it.
I've thought about calling him and reaming him but I won't because it would only make the sit worse. I just need to move foward and take care of myself and my daughters. So frustrated by his lack of caring about what's happening with us while he's gone.
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My worry is he will come to terms with it, in the same way he has spent is whole life avoiding it, that is he will run physically and emotionally from the issue.
That will not be coming to terms with it.
I've come across a couple of situations in the past few weeks where my guilt which doesn't involve the situation in letting a couple of friends down for things they needed me for
I have one friend who needed her cats taken care of while she went away for a couple of days she insists that I spend the night at her house…I couldn't sleep at my friends house knowing the girls who are 14 and 17 were alone at my house. So I'd leave about midnight and go back around 4 am.
Then this week another friend wanted me to spend two nights with her mother and help her feed their animals.
I got over there the first night and the fear of leaing them alone consumed me so I broke down in a puddle of tears.I've had to tell both friends they need to look elsewhere for help in their lives as I cannot foresee when I will feel secure enough to do these things for them again.
In this for the Long Haul,
You initially described this as guilt over letting down your friends, but what is paralyzing you is the feeling you are abandoning your daughters, one of whom is only 14. You seem to think that this is a problem that means something is wrong with you, and that it should be all right to leave your daughters alone for the night. I don’t have kids yet, but I don’t think that a 14 year old should be home alone through the night. Both of your friend’s requests were inappropriate; it was unfair of them to ask that you not stay at your own house. Please don’ feel guilty for letting these friend’s down; the kitties can handle a night alone; your daughter should not have to handle it yet; your feelings were justified.
It makes me wonder if you have problems setting boundaries and saying no. Do you volunteer for more projects than you can handle, or because you may have done so in the past does everyone just come to you asking for favours? Are you known as the one people can rely or depend upon? Do you have a need to please and do people take advantage of this?
I wonder if the capacity to understand their own guilt ever comes into play somewhere..during acceptance maybe??
To understand is different than to acknowledge and accept. Sure, some will eventually understand and hopefully most will acknowledge and accept. But no one understands everything about their personal motivations; we are all a mystery to ourselves.
Someday when your MLCers are normal this MLC Monster will be a so foreign to them that they will not be able to relate. They may not know or recall why they did what they are doing. Some may remember words and incidents, but not emotions and motivations.
They are filled to overflowing with guilt... my husband has called himself terrible, vile names over his guilt. He has flat out told me that he feels ok about himself until he gets around me and then he feels horrible because of what he has done and is doing to me and the kids. This is what RCR calls "healthy guilt". It is appropriate for him to feel it as a consequence for his behaviors.
Up until about 2 weeks ago, despite my best intentions, I have ADDED to his guilt by getting sucked in to proclaiming how hurt my feelings are... by crying (can't always help it) by getting angry or frustrated. At the same time MY reactions added to his guilt, they ALSO ALLOWED HIM TO JUSTIFY LEAVING. This is "toxic guilt" if I remember my RCR coaching... What his OW does is pile emotional blackmail "toxic guilt" on top of his healthy guilt.
Abo$l()tely.
TrustandLove, you wanted me to chime in, but LettingGo answered beautifully in my place.
I have vowed to prop up my husband's self-esteem in a healthy way
This is believing in your MLCer, which is especially important when he does not believe in himself.
They start to have an insight into the mess they have made and so increase guilt at the awakening at the end of replay. When they slip into liminality (depression) and withdrawal the full impact of what they have done and the mess they have caused hits them full force. The guilt is overwhelming as they now realise it is their issues that have caused this not the spouse.
This is true. Though they feel their guilt prior to Liminality, it causes them to run. But in Liminality they break open and it grabs them. It paralyzes them from the high-energy antics of Replay
Your H is in early replay and therefore is 'happy and content'. He won't have any guilt yet until the rose coloured glases slip and he starts to relaise that his new life isn't making him happy but adding to his sadness.
I will elaborate more on what I am about to say after reviewing HeartsBlessing’s comments. MLCers have guilt in Replay. It is more accurate to say that they will not acknowledge or accept it and may not recognize it. Replay is Escape & Avoid, but that does not mean they are not feeling their guilt
I like LG's thoughtful post, on what she does, or lets him do -- I now see that what I thought was reconnection, the doing of things around our house and noticing things that he hadn't for ages, was all guilt, not reconnection.
You make an excellent point. I don’t know that I have anything to add, but by including your comment I will be adding it to my note-files for future reference. I may need to add this insight to the Reconnection information.
True guilt is not felt until they reach the awakening within Replay, and begin to see the damage they've done; like someone said the rose colored glasses begin to slip downward.
Healthy guilt is such they "own" their wrongs; eventually working through, and doing a true facing of their part in the hurt they have caused the LBS. Doesn't come until later in the crisis; Depression or even as late as Withdrawal.
The stirrings of this guilt, plants its seeds in the Awakening process.
Before then, they are aware they've done wrong, and guilt is shown; but they do nothing but keep trying to cover it all up until it literally begins to catch up with them.
I think that HB and I are seeing the same thing but explaining it differently. First let me start by saying that I did not coin the term toxic guilt. It can be found in many places. I think I first found it in John Bradshaw’s book, Healing the Shame that Binds You. I was going to begin by defining guilt, but as I began to consider what to say I asked myself—haven’t I done this? Well, yes! I also have sourced Bradshaw in one of my articles. I discuss Guilt and Toxic Guilt in my series about Ericksonian Human Development. They are discussed for Stage III. In that series each stage description article is followed by an article describing midlife regression to that stage—Guilt for Stage III.
http://www.midlifecrisismarriageadvocate.com/lifecycleanddevelopment-erikerikson-stage3.html
For those of you who don’t want to read it all, here are my definitions for Guilt and Toxic Guilt from the article.
Guilt: Emotion or cognition resulting from the actual or perceived violation of a personal or cultural moral standard often combined with a sense of self-reproach for the misbehavior. Unlike shame it is not a reflection if identity, but rather is about behavior and personal and cultural values.
Guilt is not bad; it is a healthy component that enables empathy--sociopaths and narcissists are incapable of feeling guilt or remorse prevents them from feeling empathy. Guilt acts as our conscience and makes us accountable for our actions.
Toxic Guilt: Guilt is healthy when it is for personal misdeeds and toxic when a person assumes blame for what is outside his power and control. Any guilt from an external source is toxic, people with external guilt learn that everything is their fault and learn to create their own guilt based on self-blame for the feelings, choices and mistakes of others.
The previous article in the series, Midlife Regression for Stage II, references Bradshaw because it has a table from his book.
HB says that before Awakening guilt is shown. Yes, I guess that is what I call guilt rather than phrasing is as being shown—but it distills to the same thing. They see and feel their guilt and run from it. It is a cause of cycling behaviour. What HB is describing as True guilt, I see as actions—pre-resolution and resolution actions. They are starting to acknowledge their guilt. But acknowledgement of guilt is not the guilt itself; it is an action resulting from having/feeling guilt. In Replay the guilt overwhelms and adds to their sense of burden. In Liminality they are tired; their energy is spent and they no longer have enough to continue to Escape & Avoid. Because they do not have the energy to fight it off, their guilt is able to break through to them.
Guilt is just guilt, it is not about whether they own their wrongs—that is an active consequence or result of guilt. It is not the only result, but it is a desired result. Avoidance is an example of a negative result.
I guess I just didn’t like the term true guilt because I know Sweetheart was immersed in and overwhelmed by guilt from the start. It may be part of what kept him as a Clinging Boomerang—though that has many roots. In my definition I said it is often combined with a sense of self-reproach. That is I think what HB is talking about—though avoidance is also a form of self-reproach.
Sweetheart still feels guilty. He’s doing well, but it may always be there. When we received the infertility diagnosis, he felt it. We are having infertility problems because I am prematurely menopausal—perimenopause now. Those years he spent in MLC may have been the last years I was fertile. My Mom was the same, so my early menopause was not caused by the stress of the MLC, but his guilt is not toxic either. He is not blaming himself for me being in menopause; he’s blaming himself for not taking advantage of the fertility I had when I had it.
I’ve always joked that Sweetheart is a guilty catholic. Years ago one of his siblings received birthday card about it.
Front: So you’re catholic.
Inside: Guilty Birthday
I thought it was hilarious because it was so true.
The alienator understood that about him. She told him that she was practically a virgin. Yeah, that’s like kind of pregnant. But he initially bought into it—he bragged about it to me in the beginning. (The alienator was 41 and had a grown daughter!) I was able to use that guilt as part of my Stand. I did not have to tell him how he should feel—that would have been a judgment—and I was not going to tell him about how his actions were responsible for my pain—that would have been toxic guilt. I reinforced his knowledge that he was doing something he knew to be wrong—Ericksonian language (Different Erickson than from the Stages of Human Development). For it to work I had to leave me out of it.
does anyone else have their MLC er kinda go back and forth between showing a bit of guilt/shame, and then right back to justifying all of their actions?
just wondering...this NEVER happened in the beginning, but the further down the road we go, the more I am noticing this...
example...I was without a vehicle for 3 months, H recently bought me one and was almost excited as I was, also seemed proud that he was able to do it...
now, he is using the fact that he bought me this vehicle as...He didnt have to help me, he was trying to be nice..etc etc...
Yes, that is a normal part of cycling.
Here is an excerpt from
http://www.midlifecrisismarriageadvocate.com/balancing-love_validation.html.
Emotions and Memory
MLCers operate on pure emotions—how they feel. They store memories in emotional files. Behaviour is not real and thus not remembered if the MLCer has no present emotional affinity for the behaviour. He will contradict his past emotions that contradict the foundation of present emotions, claiming the previous emotions must have been false. An MLCer who has returned multiple times may make the same claims each time, yet will deny the validity of the previous claims when the behaviour is brought to his attention. In his mind, he cannot have felt this way previously when returning, because he would not have left, therefore he must have returned for a different reason—commonly he will blame guilt. He is incapable of understanding any emotional state other than the present.
What that means is your feels he must justify his reasons. He may have cycled and no longer feels the same and thus he may also no longer remember the feelings and if he doesn’t remember how he felt he must make up a reason for why he acted as he did.
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Thank you for commenting, RCR. I do find some of it goes round in circles, so I've tried to recap here:
My own definition of guilt: what you feel if you’ve done something that goes against your own personal code of behaviour.
To use a non-MLC example, some people feel guilt over having smacked (spanked) a child, depending on whether or not they feel that smacking is wrong.
So they feel guilt throughout replay.
Activities such as cleaning the house, attending to chores, noticing things that need to be done, etc., can be guilt rather than reconnection
He actively says that he feels guilty, but doesn’t do anything, saying that he’s felt guilty enough, he’s cried enough, and he’s just not going to do it any more, as guilt is a useless emotion. If I’ve got it right, that’s still Escape and Avoid. They continue to Escape and Avoid in order to not face their guilt, or because of their guilt?
I use the words “because of” because of what I read in my CBT book -- guilt is good if you own up to what you have done and work to find a solution, otherwise, since it is an unpleasant emotion, you keep looking for ways to not feel it, so you keep finding reasons to justify your behaviour.
Is there a good response when he talks about feeling guilt? For when he says that it is a useless emotion? I’ve been trying to distill what that CBT books says about it into a soundbite, but it keeps on escaping me.
It says:
The less guilt you have, the more effectively you can correct the problem. If you feel guilty, you tend to react defensively and counterattack because the feeling of being a “bad person” is so odious. Guilt engages you in a coverup operation; you close your ears to any criticism because you can’t bear to be wrong because it feels so terrible.
If you admit your wrong action and seek to change, you don’t have to think of yourself as bad.
To relieve guilt, one needs to ask oneself:
1 -- did I consciously and willfully do something ‘‘bad”, “unfair” or needlessly hurtful that I shouldn’t have? (or am I irrationally expecting myself to be perfect , all-knowing and all-powerful)
2 -- ask if I am labelling myself a bad or tainted person because of this action?
3-- Am I feeling a realistic regret or remorse, which results from an empathic awareness of the negative impact of my action?
4 -- Am I learning from my error and developing a strategy for change? Or am I ruminating non-productively or continuing with even more destructive behaviour?
So can that all be distilled into a soundbite to use if the opportunity arises? A response that isn’t just “you choose your feelings”?
LG, you're good at this..... :)
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Hi RCR
As a rule I don't do anything I really don't want to do I have no problem saying no to any request made by friends, my boss, or even the girls that I am not comfortable with. BUT I used to be a BIG people pleaser..H used to get relly pissed off when I did this but when I brought up all the things I'd do for him he'd shut up. He battled me for having friends for the first 10 years of our relationship. His attitude was "Who needs other peoples problems?"
I have issues of abandonmnet due to my childhood and was left alone a lot and sometimes at night and that fear eats me alive when it comes to my kids.
These friends asked me back in July after the BD if I might be able to do this in OCT. I figured by then I would be feeling more secure but instead I feel less secure. I have done these things for them in the past so I thought it would really be no problem.
I struggle almost daily with fear in differnt degrees. Sometimes it paralizes me..I get too afraid to make any decisions, pay bills, or even walk out the front door.
Now Ex-H has suggested he come here for Thanksgiving.. I battled with myself yesterday until I finally gave up and took a half a pill for anxiety. So I guess his guilt is working on him? We've only been divorced a month and 1/2.
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This is true. Though they feel their guilt prior to Liminality, it causes them to run.
RCR,
This really hit close to home. I wonder if this is why my H is suddenly bent on getting a divorce....really planning it this time.
I have noticed that anytime I thank him for anything, he gets angry and more disrespectful. He has said over and over again that "if he shows me kindness, I think things will be okay between us and they will not. " For the life of me, I can't figure out why he says that all the time. I have never pushed any issues....given him his space round the clock.
I was out of town and he cleaned the house and mailed some items for me. Pre-MLC, he would have done these things, but not anymore. I thanked him via text. He never responded....two days later he is angry and wants a divorce.
Truly up is down and down is up.
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Wow, this MLC is crazy stuff. I'm grateful that I have NC with my H because I don't think I could move forward with this sit if I did. I don't know if in the future my h will gravitate back to me but I think with what I've read and learned here from all of you I think I will be better prepared. Just the past 2 days I have had an "aha moment". My rose-colored glasses are off and I see my H and our M for what I thought it was and for what it actually was. I know now that I don't want to go back to that place or that me again. Time will only tell !!
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I agree..I would NEVER go back to that marriage either..I told him the other day maybe it all did need to be burned down. He's done a good job of it; but the pain he contunies to cause our children is uneccssary.
Their world has been turned upside down and although our marriage was far from perfect for either one of us I'm forming the opinion that a lousy marriage was better than me having to watch the children suffer this way. He doesn't suffer the high points of that.
I think he has woke up a little more to what he has done especially involving an ow.
He's suggested spending Thanksgiving with us and I told him yes.
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I told my H about 9 months in that "maybe this had to happen"; I meant in order for us to get ourselves back on track. We had both already said before that that we didn't want to go back to the marriage the way it was. He was visibly relieved; we started talking then, but then in one conversation I let my own hurt take over, and started telling him where he was wrong.... it all went pear-shaped from there.
So I have a lot of guilt about that, as well. That I, despite having intuitively done quite a lot "right" before this site was around, still totally screwed it up. Had I understood about things I may have done so much better. I piled on guilt rather than listened and validated.
I plan to forgive myself, btw...
But that's another topic....
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None of us got it "right" to begin with, T&L.
I bought all kinds of save your marriage books, downloads, subscriptions.....tried all those techniques....which completely backfired.
MLC is an entirely different animal. Nothing the textbooks tell you about relationships can address the unpredictability of a person in MLC. I have yet to read a relationship book that says to do the exact opposite of what you have been doing....though we know that is often the case with an MLC'er.
As HB says, "it is still a crapshoot". We don't know the outcome until it happens. There is no way to say that one method will repair things and that another won't. The issue is within the MLC'er. They have to be willing to accept that.
Don't be so hard on yourself. We all made plenty of mistakes. Ultimately, if it is God's will that our marriages will be restored, none of that will matter.
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I've tried REALLY hard not to bring up where he was wrong..we did enough of that in the marriage.
I told him at one point I knew things were really bad and I wanted to leave just for a short time to "get my head on staright" But I knew he would never allow it. He was quiet about that as he knew that would be the way he would react.
I told him the marrage was this huge messy ball of string and I could not find the end of it so we could rewind it back up together. And that evrything else kept going around in circles and I had to take control more and I never wanted to.
He laughed at that as though I was lying. I firmly told him it was the truth I never wanted control I was tired of being responsible for every single thing.
BUT I did not dump on him that I had to do all this because he was acting like a misbehaved teenager.
Part of how I talk to him mostly involves stopping short of where I wouldn't have before. Before both barrels come out and I blast him. I did that for a long time and I can almost feel it when I get to that point and I make myself stop.
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....and I have always been the opposite. I almost never spoke my mind about things that bothered me. For the most part, my irritation would pass.
My H and I rarely argued. I think we were both good at supressing our emotions. My emotions were fleeting and his were long lasting. He would be upset by something and act upset for several days. He wouldn't talk to me about it.
So, I really felt I always had the end of the string and I just kept in neatly wound. I thought, at the end of the day, all issues were resolved. In my head, I had laid them to rest.
So MLC comes along.....he decides to resurrect 22 years of emotions he had been feeling, but not displaying.
The one statement he made that has hurt me almost as much as the ILYBINILWY speech was when he said, "We never got this marriage thing right."
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TrustandLove,
My own definition of guilt: what you feel if you’ve done something that goes against your own personal code of behaviour.
Exactly…this is my definition too—in different words!
He actively says that he feels guilty, but doesn’t do anything, saying that he’s felt guilty enough, he’s cried enough, and he’s just not going to do it any more, as guilt is a useless emotion. If I’ve got it right, that’s still Escape and Avoid. They continue to Escape and Avoid in order to not face their guilt, or because of their guilt?
Both—I think they are the same thing. One creates the other and thus they feed off of each other.
I use the words “because of” because of what I read in my CBT book -- guilt is good if you own up to what you have done and work to find a solution, otherwise, since it is an unpleasant emotion, you keep looking for ways to not feel it, so you keep finding reasons to justify your behaviour.
In my opinion, healthy guilt is good—period. What is positive or negative is what a person does with it—how they handle it. The outcome is positive—good—good if you own up to what you have done and work to find a solution.
Holding onto guilt either by dismissing and thus suppressing or repressing it or wallowing in it, is unhealthy—it is the reactions/actions not the guilt that are unhealthy.
Is there a good response when he talks about feeling guilt? For when he says that it is a useless emotion? I’ve been trying to distill what that CBT books says about it into a soundbite, but it keeps on escaping me.
It says:
The less guilt you have, the more effectively you can correct the problem. If you feel guilty, you tend to react defensively and counterattack because the feeling of being a “bad person” is so odious. Guilt engages you in a coverup operation; you close your ears to any criticism because you can’t bear to be wrong because it feels so terrible.
If you admit your wrong action and seek to change, you don’t have to think of yourself as bad.
To relieve guilt, one needs to ask oneself:
- did I consciously and willfully do something ‘‘bad”, “unfair” or needlessly hurtful that I shouldn’t have? (or am I irrationally expecting myself to be perfect , all-knowing and all-powerful)
- ask if I am labelling myself a bad or tainted person because of this action?
- Am I feeling a realistic regret or remorse, which results from an empathic awareness of the negative impact of my action?
- Am I learning from my error and developing a strategy for change? Or am I ruminating non-productively or continuing with even more destructive behaviour?
There are a variety of ways to address this depending on each individual and on how the conversation begins.
I’m not doing it anymore. I’ve been feeling all this guilt for leaving you. It’s a useless emotion and has gotten me nowhere but feeling worse. I’ve cried enough.
Validate their feelings: guilt is unpleasant and can be overwhelming.
Then give information or ask questions. Here are some ideas.
- Expert Knowledge: But it doesn’t work that way. Guilt doesn’t just go away because you don’t want it or don’t like it. That makes it worse, not better.
- I know you: But that hasn’t worked for you has it? You say you are now refusing to feel guilty. But you still do and you wonder why. You wonder why you don’t feel better. You stuff it away and you still feel bad. I guess dismissing it is not the way to get rid of guilt.
- Empathize: I’ve tried that too. I tried pretending it didn’t exist, dismissing it, forgetting about it…those things only made me feel worse because I felt more guilty.
Follow up with information about resolving guilt—it is nonspecific.
Your guilt will remain as long as you continue to go against your personal code. Until you make amends, your guilt will not release you and you will not release it. You are still feeling guilty because you are continuing the actions that go against your personal code. You’re betraying your Self.
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I also think wearing my wedding ring causes my H to feel guilt. He hasn't worn his in a 1 1/2 years. When we are out as a family, I see him looking at my hand from time to time. I think it perpetuates his feeling of being trapped.
I AM married. I don't want to remove my ring. I maintain my vows to him.
I know some on other sites have said that a wedding ring is given to you as a vow from another. If they no longer live like a married person, your ring no longer has the same meaning. I have always looked at it as my vow to my husband.
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Thank you, RCR -- that was very clear and what I was out after.
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That's a statement by him I have heard over and over again
I am not a bad person.
I let it go for a while because I felt if I addressed it he would look at it like an attack.
So I've waited and when I saw the opportunity I told him:
You are not a bad person.
And stopped short of saying just arrogant and irresposible and selfish and stubborn and tearing your family apart and a ton of other negitive things.
When he sent me the email about OW having to stay at the house until they found her a place to live he stated
I'm not doing anything bad here.
That one almost sent me over the edge but I reigned my fury in and told him I understood and respected the fact that he was accepting responsibilty for a situation he felt he was resposible for.
Just about killed me to do that.
I have also told him he has nothing to feel guilty about when it comes to me. I did this hoping for an outcome which was him being able to function with the kids again. He wouldn't even come to the house for this last 4 months to spend any time as his guilt kept him away.
Now he's offered to come for Thanksgiving. I was kind of hoping for a lesser event in which to have dinner like maybe he could stop in for Tacos some night but Lord knows that's not him. He has to do it BIG if it has to be done.
Mind you he hasn't asked for forgiveness and I didn't offer or say I forgave him I just wanted to take the pressure off him in the guilt department,
What I''ve been trying to do is exactly the opposite of what I had done. My biggest problem is I don't know if this is really me..or am I being manipulitive?
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Found this article thought it may help others although this one is based around pregnancy i feel the article relates to everyone sitch xxxxxxxxxxxxxx
Edited to add source link.
http://www.survivingbetrayal.com/component/content/article/54-guilt-and-remorse (http://www.survivingbetrayal.com/component/content/article/54-guilt-and-remorse)
Distinguishing the difference between feelings of guilt and remorse can be crucial to the both spouses understanding of the healing process. In this article we explore the differences and their implications for recovery.
Not long after my partner confessed his affair to me and told me about the other womans pregnancy, he fell into a deep depression. He was a nightmare to live with and we came very close to ending it there and then. I could never put my finger on exactly what it was that drove me crazy about that time until one of our forum members posted the following to explain the difference between guilt and remorse.
It had always seemed to me that the guilt my husband felt had very much more to do with his pain and his loss rather than for any pain or loss he caused me and that lead to a great deal of resentment on my part and a delay in our recovery of some time. I should explain that when I say his pain and his loss, i do not mean any pain he experienced in the "break up" of the affair, rather the pain he suffered when he realized that he was not the person that he had always thought he was. His self image was changed and not for the better.
I think it is relatively normal for a wayward spouse to go through a period of guilt, where they realize in one of those inconvenient moments of clarity, just how far into the gutter they have allowed themselves to fall BUT an emotionally mature person, one who really is committed to gaining back what they stand on the verge of losing, will work to move beyond that, face up to the realities of the situation and find true remorse.
I wish every formally wayward spouse well on this journey. For those who need some direction, the following may be helpful;
•Real remorse means seeing the pain you caused someone, and reaching out to make it better. Feeling bad for the person in pain.
•A person who feels guilt rather than remorse sees the pain of others (that they inflicted) as judgment, condemnation, and feels bad for themselves. What they feel for the person in pain is anger - anger for showing them what they don't want to see (the consequences of their actions).
•Someone who feels remorse for doing a bad thing will always consider the thing they did to be bad.
•Bad feelings associated with guilt are situational, and change with circumstances.
•Someone really remorseful doesn't want to repeat a harmful action - they aren't even tempted to. Real remorse means never doing it again, self accountability.
•Someone who feels guilty can still repeat the actions causing the guilt, precisely to escape the guilt. The only way to end feelings of guilt is self accountability - guilt happens when someone runs from it.
•Remorse says "I'm sorry I hurt you".
•Guilt says "stop making me feel bad for what I did".
•Remorse cares more about the one wounded. They don't care about others holding them accountable because they already hold themselves accountable.
•Guilt worries more about how the wounded one makes them appear in the eyes of others. They feel their self image is being attacked. They do worry about others holding them accountable because they shirk self accountability.
•Remorse means learning from one's harmful actions.
•Guilt means not even facing what one has done, so learning from it isn't likely.
•Remorse means leaving the harmful actions one did in the past, but not forgetting them.
•Guilt carries harmful actions around, keeping them ever present, by attempting to avoid dealing with them. They will always be ever present, a thorn in ones side, looming large and affecting one's life until faced and dealt with. This is self inflicted torture - although a person struggling with guilt will blame others.
•Remorse leads to the ability to forgive the self.
•Guilt leads to self hatred.
•Remorse is action, actively doing something about the harm one caused.
•Guilt is feeling self pity and doing nothing about the harm one caused.
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thought this applied to all the mlcers after BD Someone who feels guilty can still repeat the actions causing the guilt, precisely to escape the guilt. The only way to end feelings of guilt is self accountability - guilt happens when someone runs from it.
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Good one. It helps to clarify things even more.
Definitely guilt not remorse!
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Thanks for posting that WGH...when I first discovered the affair my H looked me straight in the face and told me he felt no shame, guilt or remorse..from a Catholic alter boy? Really?
About 8 months later when he was home on business, I asked him why he couldn't look me in the eye and he hung his head and muttered shame, shame, shame..I hugged him to me and told him...no shame.
5 months later, he tells me he doesn't want to be married to me anymore and he seems quite determined to go that route.
I wonder sometimes if the guilt that he feels is what he thinks has caused irreparible damage between us....it was so out of character for him to do that and he admitted that he wished I had not found out..yet he blurted it out the moment I asked innocently "is there somebody else?"
So one of my many fears (I know, I'm working on letting them go) is that he cannot forgive himself thus he is running as far away as possible and in some ways punishing himself.
I find it far easier to forgive his affair than his deserting our family.
You are a very wise and wonderful forgiving woman..I am so glad that your husband made it back to you. Do not worry about the baby....that little one is innocent in all this and I think your heart is large enough that you'll by ok..it will bite a bit, but you'll be ok.
That's what God is trying to tell us...to live our lives being able to forgive those who have hurt us.
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I don't know why but I'm sure that's it. My ExH keeps saying "find a GOOD man" Makes me want to srangle him.
I think that in the aftermath they feel we are too good for them.
A while ago before the BD he was saying things like "I'm not a bad man"..almost to himself. Then the focus on "his happiness" came into play which he thought was the OW.
Now that she's at least out of our former family home some of the devastaion
can be healed hopefully through the girls first.
I am in no rush for him and I
I am a nervous wreck. I really don't know if I can throw my heart out there again if it's required.
And to be honset with you I don't know what the heck remorse on his part looks like.
If it's actions; he did manage to make her leave even though he says "she did this so I could have my kids back" Like she's some kind of saint..God it Pisses me off to no end.
I had two other relationships do this to me one was my first marrage which lasted 6 years and the other was just the rebound relationship after the first divorce and I'm telling you this is killing me.
I just can't get past the thought of his hands touched someone else and other things.
He NEVER in 1 million years would I have thought of everything or anything he could do would do this!
Wish he had just beaten me with a baseball bat at least that might have healed faster.
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Awww ITFTLH..you are worth far more than this pain.
I really don't know if I can throw my heart out there again if it's required.
Why would you have to? Can we not just be content with ourselves. I know, it's very hard..I just don't know that I would allow myself to trust anyone again..but for me it's more about my own belief about being married to my Beloved.
The healing will occur..it can take longer I think if we try and resist it, it can also take longer if we don't allow it to reach into our inner most selves to find out where the pain is attached to.
There is no reason or rhyme for why they would take this route..I wish mine would have only done something like get a fancy sports car..unfortunately, we already had that!
Betrayal..it's programed into our DNA that that is a very big NO NO...forgiveness though has been programmed into our soul and if we can forgive, we shall in turn grow as humans, understanding weakness and imperfection..but truly understanding love.
Big hug..I shudder at your use of the words being hit by a baseball bat..yet, I understand, the pain from this is far deeper than physical pain....it's pain in every cell, every thought and right to our core. But, it is in this pain that I know that I am alive. Not sure my Beloved feels anything let alone being alive...so what kind of hell might that be?
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well I know he felt the pain big time at two seprate occassions enough to consider suicide
The second time I reached out to him in the email he sent which I would have rather gone to see him but I don't think that I would of because ow was there. I wanted to call him on the phone but chose to just email.
And as far as I'm concerned email sucks big time to express any emotion at all
Might work for him -doesn't do a damn thing for me.
I found where all my pain is attached to forgiven these people who I felt needed it and that was done quite a while ago. The two relationships I spoke of I am redealing with now as it really didn't seem important until I couldn't figure out why after four months why I was still just about paralized in paiin. Then I started to think back and found these two relationships.
I remeber crying to my aunt after the first relationship ended in that kind of betrayal "I would rather have a broken bone than this..then someone could at least give me an idea about when it would heal When does the pain stop?"
She answered "Whenever you want it to". She also said the same thing "Be glad you feel it"
Fat lot of help that did for me I'm 23 with no frame of referance back then.
And I'll be damned at 51 I still feel the same way.
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Thanks for this...my H is defo in the guilt stage. not reached the remorse one and I'm not sure he will....time will tell i guess
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That is an excellent post -- somewhere here there is a thread on the subject of guilt; perhaps we could combine them? It fits perfectly...
It also shows that what my H feels is guilt, not remorse.
OP, if you read this, can you find it?
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That is an excellent post -- somewhere here there is a thread on the subject of guilt; perhaps we could combine them? It fits perfectly...
It also shows that what my H feels is guilt, not remorse.
OP, if you read this, can you find it?
I am reading this, not sure I know which post you are referring to but I will look.
If you find the post or threads I will be happy to merge them. :) :) :)
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It's called "their GUILT", started Nov 21 2010 (I think I got that date right...) It has a green scowling face symbol rather than the open book....
WGH, do you agree about merging these?
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Ok done these are merged together!
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Hi trusting do you mean the guilt and remorse i posted yesterday if so cause you can xxx
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My H has never shown guilt. He hides every emotion. I doubt he ever will. This is one reason I am not so sure how I feel about ever getting a relationship back with him.
I can say tho, that right now I have so many other things going on, that I can get a flying leap if he feels guilty. He SHOULD feel guilty. He has destroyed a family, that SHOULD carry a lot of guilt. But should, would could.... those famous words!
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Growing;
I couldn't agree more with your post. They SHOULD feel guilty...they destroyed a family. I guess I am more
angry about the lack of guilt and/or remorse than the OW..weird huh? My h hasn't expressed either.