Midlife Crisis: Support for Left Behind Spouses
Archives => Archived Topics => Topic started by: OliveOyl on November 07, 2010, 09:12:44 AM
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I'm thinking about the holidays. We have spent most holidays with just H, me and Ss. Not really the way I wanted it, so now is the time to start new traditions. I thought many of us on this forum might benefit from others sharing their ideas for starting new holiday traditions. Help, I need some ideas!
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Okay I am very new to this and wondered if anyone out there who has survived Christmas or the 'Holiday Season' could offer some advice.
My H is out of the country so I don't have to fret over our Ds splitting their time between us or bumping into him ath the Inlaws houses but I want to thread carefully around the thorny issue of sending gifts or seasonal greetings.
Both girls (20 & 15) have mixed feelings at the moment but I am trying to ensure they maintain good relationships with their Dad and have told them they should not change their ways this year. They then asked me if I was sending him a gift and that led me to think if I should and what I could send.
Just wondered if any of you faced this dilemma last year and whether you exchanged gifts or even suggest what might be the perfect MLCer gift this year (tongue-in-cheek)? I am very tempted to send a mini library on MLC!
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Hello His Angel,
What I did last year was I wanted one last Christmas for the 3 of us, so I did that. I wouldn't do it this year because ow in the picture and he lost that privilege, whether he know it or not or cares. Since my D is 14, I'll have her pick out a few presents for him but I'm not giving him anything from me. I already bought one small gift for him for her to give him. I don't know what to tell you, I stopped "paving the way", I will not do it anymore since he's living with ow and honestly who he is right now is not someone I want home. I can only suggest, look into your heart and decided.
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There have been quite a few discussions about this one other sites and the general conclusions were that gifts are often seen as pressure, so be careful in general. Something small with not too much meaning could be best. It is hard as he is out of the country so you have to decide in advance.
Last year, I was going give my H nothing nothing, at his request over several weeks. A couple of days before xmas, he started to talk about this great book he had got me for xmas, and why it was so great. So I rushed out and brought a small stationary item to put under the tree. On xmas day, he said "but we agreed no gifts, I did not get you anything" Turns out the book given to me on behalf of the toddlers, not him. It caused a lot of tension, and his gift sat unmoved on the kitchen bench for a month until I threw it in the trash. Two days later, he asked if I had seen it and has EXTREMELY hurt I had thrown it out.
In general, it seems MLCers either really miss their old lives and want to be part of xmas, it is not uncommon for some to try to return during this stage, although not usually lasting.
The other side is those, like my H, who get guilted out, hate xmas and want nothing to do with it. Bomb drops for this lot may occur around this time.
If you have an indication as to how stressed or happy your H is that xmas is approaching, it may give you an indication of which type he will be and how to play it.
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Mercury.
I was seeing it as an opportunity to 'Pave the way' but even I know its too early to be sowing those seeds with him, as he really just wants to ignore Christmas this year. I'll make sure the girls pick up a gift and I'll think about sending a covering card from me.
StormRider
If you have an indication as to how stressed or happy your H is that xmas is approaching, it may give you an indication of which type he will be and how to play it.
This actually provides me with the answer as he has already stated he wants to keep a low profile this Christmas and I suspect he will only see any gesture of mine as pressure!
Think I'll concentrate on what to buy for myself instead!!
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Dear All,
How do you do it at the holidays? My H, D13 and I are still under the same roof though his affair with my "friend" and disconnection from daughter and me continues. He finally reappeared yesterday after being out all night without a word (OW, no doubt) then avoided D and me by spending the day working in the yard.
He says he is making other living arrangements after I set a boundary of not seeing other women while still living with me and our daughter, but now I wonder if that was the way to go. Regardless, the holidays will be hard. They were always great family times. We asked if he wanted to accept any of the Thanksgiving invitations we've received, but he said he does not want the "cozy family" time my daughter and I do, so we should make our own plans. I went ahead and did that though D and I are not looking forward to the loneliness and grief that will surround us as we try to enjoy the holidays with happy families and friends.
How do you do it? How do you maintain some traditions and happiness for yourself and your child(ren), not be tempted to try to include H or feel bad if you don’t or if H is alone (can you believe I am even thinking about that given he has another woman?), or spends it with HER or mutual friends of yours, etc. Everything that used to be the happiest time of the year for our family now feels terrible and the idea of "new traditions" isn't helping either. My daughter and I do volunteer and give to others and that does help, but there is still so much sorrow for us.
Also, my daughter has several holiday performances coming up, but does not want to invite her father. He is very disconnected from her, gives her no notice in the house, and she feels would only be faking it for other people if he came and pretended to be jovial and "great!" as he seems able to portray to others. He is such a stranger to her that it literally makes her uncomfortable to have him there. Still, it feels like we are just furthering distancing him from the family by excluding him.
Does the truth about MLC ever come to light or will friends always think he is just fine and making rationale decisions when those of us living with him are witnessing extreme and completely foreign behavior and statements. He seems able to be his old self around everyone else. And because he, the other woman, her spouse and children (living separate from her now) and my daughter and I are all in the same social circle, it is very isolating. I am working to broaden my circle, but that is not easy now either. One of the most hurtful things is how many people try to play both sides of the fence or take the adulterers’ “side” as though they can’t help it or something must have been terribly wrong for these formally likeable people to betray their marriages, children, the larger social group, begin drinking and acting out in other ways, etc. How does if often end up that the ones being betrayed and trying to stand, are more lonely and more blamed than those who do the betraying? It feels like another layer of betrayal and is mind boggling to me.
I would love tips on:
surviving—even enjoying the holidays---with a disconnected MLC spouse and while working to detach, but not give up.
Handling situations when children do not want a parent invited to their activities due to MLC and an affair and their feelings about it (keep in mind OW was also someone very close to and previously very trusted by my daughter)?
Managing the hurt and fallout from behind the back gossip, the humiliating things the OW tells our mutual friends about her and my husband, two-faced “friends,” etc.
Is there ever some kind of justice or balancing of the scale that occurs? It seems the LBS bears all the hurt and burden and the MLC spouse goes off to experience a free and easy second youth with their affair partner on our family’s dime and with no regard for the unbearable pain, grief and loss.
I do not mean to sound whiny, but good grief, when do the “good guys” get a few victories?
Thanks all,
Phoenix
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Hi Pheonix,
I'm pretty new to all this too. I have often wondered about all the same things you have posted here. I'm waiting to see the anwers from more of the 'seasoned' members, however I will offer my opinion.
In the end, it doesn't matter really about what other people are thinking. YOU know the truth, and isn't that what life is about? Finding truth? YOU and HE know the real truth.
In time, it will catch up with him. Every action has an equal reaction. I still believe in KARMA, and JUSTICE in the world. Bide your time, stay true to who you are and the good vaules you believe in. I think time and patience is the key.
I, too, am wondering about how to manage the holidays with the deep sorrow that I'm feeling inside. I have always loved Christmas, and have decided that I'm going to enjoy it to the best of my ability, with or without him.
Christmas is about giving. I'm going to give to my children, my friends, and my family in the most generous way I know how. I'm going to decorate my house to the nines, bake with my kids, go shopping, sing Christmas carols, go out and be with people and still enjoy life! I'm going to let all the goodness in me shine through , whether I'm grieving or not.
And I'll let people make up their own minds about the situation. I still believe.....
You are not alone. As you see there are many others here enduring similar situations,,and there are also many other horrible, devastating things that happen to people everyday. Hold on, find your happiness within yourself and continue to believe in all the good things!
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I have two D's, 9 and 12. My H moved out into his own home in September. D12 has not had contact with H in almost 8 weeks, and D9 has had little contact since he moved and has currently not had contact in two weeks.
The best advice I was given is that it is not my responsibility to maintain the relationship between my children and their father. It's not mine to repair. My girls never hear me say anything negative about their father and they are fully aware that at anytime they are able to see him. I don't speak badly about my H, I love him and he's going through a hard time. I pray for him and I pray for our family.
The girls and I were going to go out for Thanksgiving dinner and spend lots of money at a high end restaurant, but very close family friends invited us to dinner. I gave the girls a choice. They decided to have dinner with the friends.
As for Christmas, we usually spend Christmas Eve with H's family and Christmas Day at home. We are not going to H's family for Christmas Eve. Christmas Day we will be at home and maybe we'll go away for a few days after. The girls have picked out a fun colored artificial tree, instead of our usual train ride to the tree lot to cut down our own tree. I let them decide what they wanted to do.
They have only taken our Christmas stockings out of the garage and choose not to decorate the tree. However, they do want to hang Daddy's stocking next to mine on the mantel.
If my H was in the house and being disconnected I would still give the girls the choice to celebrate the holiday as they wished. They are the most sensitive and hurt right now. It's about them having good memories to carry with them and get them through. I will be happy as long as they are happy.
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Regardless of whether the MLC spouse is involved or not involved, it is just important to celebrate with the ones that you love. I agree that the children suffer the most and you need to be sensitive to their needs.
To answer your questions: respect your daughter's wish not to be involved with your h and ow. She feels betrayed and you need to support her wishes. This is not being disrespectful to you h because your h is involved in disrespectful behavior.
Most people do not support adultery. I think you will realize that those that support the marriage and are honest will get the support over the adulterous couple. At first, people tried to talk some sense into my w but it did not work. They began to isolate themselves from the situation. In my situation, it was the hot news for the summer and it has now died out.
My advice is to have a few close friends and cut out those that you don't feel are helpful or worse will carry tails to others.
Enjoy the holidays (((Hugs)) to all the children
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My best advicce...as last years holidays were atrocious...really...
DO WHATEVER IT IS YOU AND YOUR FRIENDS AN?OR FAMILY ALWAYS DO!
Do not change anything!!
IF your spouse wants to be a part of it...w/o bringing everyone else down, let them
if they dont want to take part, dont try to make them!
I tried to accomodate H, along with everyone else last year...to keep the peace...it would have been much better just to carry on as normal and let them decide what they want to do...
hugs,
L
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Take the high road as far as what his friends are hearing. If they are siding with him, cut them off. Seriously. Not as a punishment, that is just the natural course of things and you will set them free to choose the fool. In the case of family, right or wrong, you should expect they will and SHOULD side with him, even if they disapprove of his actions.
Have Christmas the way YOU want to have it. Have Thanksgiving the way YOU want it. It won't be the same, and you can tell your kids you're sorry it won't be the same as they're used to and what would they like to do to make it your very own despite the ugly circumstances!
Don't feel bad or good about what your MLCer is doing for the holidays. If they wanted to spend them with you, they would give up OW. If they don't have OW, they can certainly ask you if it would be ok to spend it with the kids. They are so selfish, they are waiting for you to INVITE THEM on THEIR TERMS. Don't do it. You will survive a holiday without them. If anyone is boneheaded or innocent enough to ask where your spouse is, you can tell them he is sick, allergic to cats, has to work, flew home to be with their family, whatever. It will back them off from asking cuz they'll get a vibe.
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I am currently in a dilemma as to the fast approaching festive season, as to whether I should invite my H to spend Christmas Day with us. Last year he was invited and we had a lovely day. He had only been gone a few weeks and had recently said that he wanted to come back home.
To be truthful I am not looking forward to Christmas at all this year, and putting on a brave face for the girls is getting me down. So my question is:-
A - Do I invite him and try to act 'normal' for the sake of everyone else, as I am sure he will be expecting an invite.
B - Do I not ask him to join us, thereby letting him know this is how it will be every Christmas from now on if he doesn't get his act together. He is still dad to our girls, but he is no longer a part of this family, as it was his choice to leave and abandon us.
I don't have a problem with him visiting to open presents etc, but I'm just not sure I want him to spend the whole day, as I am sure he will be secretly expecting.
I have no idea where he would end up otherwise, but I am sure someone will feed him. To be honest it would make the situation less awkward as I am barely speaking to him at the moment anyway.
The girls say they are fine either way and say it would be a good way to teach him a lesson on what he will miss out on in future. On the other hand he is their dad and they do love seeing him as much as they can. My H has always been the biggest kid at Christmas, and I know how much he looks forward to this time of year.
I know this is the season of goodwill and I really don't want to play 'Scrooge',because it is not just me I have to think about, but it would be so tempting to see him suffer. Maybe it is just the mood I am in at the moment, and I may feel differently tomorrow, so if anyone has any ideas if you have dealt with this situation in the past, could you please share.
I have just read this back before posting and now I feel really bad for having cruel thoughts. Sorry for the rant.
Thanks and Bah Humbug!!
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Glimmer
We all feel like this at this time of year. I am sure we all have our own view as each MLCer is different.
Personally I have not included my H in any of my Christmas day plans because I choose not to. He now lives with OW and I am sure she will expect him to be with her. So I will plan without him. I will wait for him to ask and then negogtiate what is best for me and the children NOT him. The children are very happy to have Christmas without him and I have lots of lovely things planned. It is our day to be enjoyed.
Last year he came for 2 hours on Christmas day and left but I know he found it hard. But its not about H suffering. He has chose to be with OW of which I had no choice but I do now. Some of the consequences of living with OW is that he misses out on family things.
You have to decided what is best for you and the girls and not what you think is best for him. He has made his choice. Now your choice is to invite him or not. What does your intuition tell you?
xx
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Thanks and Bah Humbug!!
Glimmer,
I love that you have still got a sense of humour in all this. This made me smile :)
I am sure one of the wiser ones will give you the best advice on this, but my opinion is that your H shouldn't be able to spend the day with you as if he still lived there. Why should you be worrying about him when he hasn't worried about his actions? He gets the best of both worlds if he can come and join in when he feels like. I have everyone mixed up - is there no OW in your sitch? I take it there can't be.
Anyway, maybe if he came round for the present opening, as you suggested?
I am wondering if my D will see anything of my H, as they have had no contact for over 3 months now.
Hope you can get to enjoy Christmas with your girls. I am actually looking forward to mine this year, after I went through so much last year.
Take care and (((((((((((hugs))))))))))))))))))))
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Hi TTM
There is OW. She has a son of her own, H doesn't live with her although he stayed with her for a while earlier this year. He has constantly messed me around by wanting to come home and then doing nothing about it. The most recent was about 4 weeks ago. He cannot stay away and visits every day without fail.
I don't know if he would be invited by OW as she may have plans of her own. All I know is that he shouldn't be allowed to live his double life, choosing the best bits out of both when he feels like it.
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This is an interesting question.
As for me, I'm planning Christmas the same as usual; whether or not H is a part of it remains to be seen. However, it has been occurring to me that maybe I need to plan completely different celebrations; in some ways maybe I'm a bit stuck with what we do. Now don't get me wrong -- I very much LIKE the way we have Christmas; I'll have the same people that we have had for years. Last year was the first time I did it by myself, no H involved at all; the previous year H was there, the year before that he asked me to cancel all other people and we had Christmas by ourselves, just H and me and the children. That was the first year he was away, and he was wondering......
I enjoy being hostess, this year I will likely host new year's eve as well. However, I take the point that it is stuff that H could 'easily slot into' if he chose to come.... stayed has pointed out to me that even if I have GAL, it still seems like I'm waiting. This isn't going to make me change my plans for this year, at least not right now, but it's a point worth pondering.
My children also very much like our Christmas, which is one big, big reason for doing it that way -- it gives them stability as well. However, maybe if I saved money we really could go away next year -- somewhere snowy and nice. That would underline a new life....
As to H; last year he didn't come because he went to see his mother in her care home; he may well decide to do so again this year, and have Christmas eve with his sister. I have no idea what he did for Christmas Eve last year -- in our culture it's almost the more important evening, as we do presents then, etc. He didn't come to church, after having told the children that he "might", but I guess he couldn't face it.
I don't know the status of the latest OW; she could be gone. It is likely that I will find out.....
Just points to ponder...
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He cannot stay away and visits every day without fail.
All I know is that he shouldn't be allowed to live his double life, choosing the best bits out of both when he feels like it.
I completely agree with you there. He seems to be cake-eating big time. Have you seen what HB has said to LG? Your stories and your Hs sound very similar.
I think maybe you have to do the same thing, even though it will probably be hard for you. I know your intuition is starting to kick in.
Thinking of you.
HUGS xx
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Glimmer
I am new here but after reading your story I can tell you, its been 3 years since we separated. The first Christmas we spent together but barely spoke, horrible, just horrible for me and for the kids. The next two were spent apart, me having my time and him having his. It does give them an idea of how it will be if things don't work out. I remember him saying the first Christamas we had apart, that it was the first time in 50 years he had woke up on Christmas morning alone. Let them think about those things!!!! They have given us enough to think about. Do what feels comfortable for you. Thats what we all need to do.
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Thanks everyone for your comments. It has certainly given me something to think about.
I am very tempted to let him suffer. Not much festive spirit, I know. After all he hasn't cared about anyone elses suffering for the last 14months. No thoughts whatsover as to how me and our 2Ds feel every time he goes off to spend time with OW. He has told me he doesn't feel guilt(or any other emotion I don't think) when he flips from one to the other, because he has mastered the art of compartmentalising, so pushes all thoughts of us out of his mind when he is with her, and vise versa. So skilfull. How he has never to my knowledge slipped up on this, must put extra pressure on his mixed up brain.
Maybe it will do him good, waking up in his own little flat on Christmas morning (unless he has had a better offer), and not being a part of the family for Christmas dinner. Wouldn't it be good if Marley's ghost would appear and show him all his Christmases past, present and future. That would certainly give him something to ponder, and I wouldn't like to be in his shoes when it happens.
Ho Ho Ho.
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Glimmer your h is very much like mine....here every day but saying he wants to live alone and not recommit and have no responsibilities...
My H said he was going to come on Xmas day have dinner with us then leave and go to work...said he had to do what made he feel OK...i said do you know..we might not even want you here....so i told him...you want to live alone then do it... do you think I am so desperate i will take what you throw out... 10 mins later he called back and said sorry...I think we are so worried about their feelings sometimes we forget about ours.
Do whatever will make YOU feel good ((((((HUGS)))))))))))
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Glimmer
Marleys ghost is such a great idea. Do you think he would get round all the MLCers before Christmas morning? I suppose he could as Father Christmas (Santa Claus) manages to take all children presents on Christmas Eve....... :D
A dose of Christmas past, present and future would be the best Christmas present we could give our H/W.
xx
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Ha I have just bought a Christmas Carol 3 D ...maybe I should sit H in front with the glasses on and see what effect it has LOL
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Hyper
3D is good as it will draw them in to a fantasy land they may recognise ;)
Off to see if I can find one......... :)
xx
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Glimmer,
I do not have any advice on whether to invite your H or not.
This is my first Christmas without him and NC on his part. I am not saying I contact him but just this week texted him but didn't follow thru on calling him to talk. He never called back either.
My husband also always loved getting up Christmas morning, putting on the coffee, helping start the cinnamon rolls. Then he would get the camera ready to take pictures when our girls (even tho they are adults) and the grandkids would come into the room and see the gifts under the tree and the looks on their faces would make him smile.
He is a big kid also because he loves getting gifts. Now he is living with ow and she has no kids at home so he will be getting up without kids and family. He will be with her and getting the gifts she got him and she will be getting gifts he got her. (That kills me)
I just wonder what he will get her because he would always wait to the last minute to go shopping. Sometimes he would take me shopping and have me pick out stuff I wanted but I really didn't like doing that. I always liked being surprised like he did.
This is a sad time for me and I hope to get thru it.
As far as your H suffering thru Christmas, I hope mine does also. They don't deserve to be with the family and think everything is okay. I think they need to feel the hurt during this hugh family occassion and feel what it is like to be alone and without their families.
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I agree about the present buying. My H never did much in the 20yrs we were together. For the first time last year I made him buy for 'his' family and I did mine plus all the kids. This resulted in him buying 7 book tokens on Christmas Eve, and then him boasting about how little time it took. (not to mention how little thought went into it).
He has mentioned today, that he may start stome Christmas shopping tomorrow, as we won't be seeing him at all on Sunday because he has plans. So your guess is as good as mine who he will be buying for. That is something I don't want to think about, the something special he may buy for her.
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Well, my M-in-L phoned last night to ask me what H was doing for Christmas Day, and was I inviting him here. I told her I didn't know what his plans were, but the way I felt at the moment I wouldn't be asking him to join us for Christmas dinner. She sounded quite put out, and talked about rearranging her Christmas day to accommodate him. She tried this last year and in the end I relented and he he came to us. She then said she needed to talk to him quickly, to let him know that I wasn't inviting him. I told her I would prefer him to sweat for a while without saying anything, but I don't think she was listening at this point.
I did feel bad telling her this, but I can't keep sugar coating it to spare their feelings all the time, after all it is their son who has caused this mess.
I explained that the girls and I had discussed this. They both, as would I, love him to be here with us, but, and I can't believe our youngest D14 said this, they are prepared to spend Christmas day without him, and hopefully let him see what he will miss out on every year if he carries on the way he is. They both said they want to do anything to 'make him better' (bless them) and if that is what it takes, then it is worth it.
Also, they said that they are now getting used to him not living here, and they quite like it. So it seems to me if he doesn't buck his ideas up soon, then they will get to the point where they are not bothered if he comes back or not. Something else for him to ponder, I think.
I just want us to have the Christmas we want, and do stuff when we want to do it and not wait for him to turn up and take charge of the situation as he does at present.
A lesson he needs to learn I think is that it is NOT all about him.
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Not that my opinion is the only one regarding a x-mas invite...my thinking is that you don't invite him so he can see what he will be missing. Not that it will change the situation...but I don't believe it could hurt. Of course you will have to make the decision that you will be comfortable living with. My partner is now living with OW so no invite or presents on my part. As I'm sure I'm not receiving anything from her either. Just my two-cents worth.
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I didn't invite him he just informed me how it was going to be. LOL
I wasn't worried as it made the girls happy and the mean side of me went "Ha take that ow"
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I wouldn't invite. At this point I think our H's took themselves out of our life and the life of our children. If he wants to spend anytime, he needs to respectfully ask if he can be part of a family tradition he has removed himself from.
Really, H's are the scrooge, why would one feel bad? H's bring with them a dark cloud, let them enjoy sharing their dark cloud with their special someone, and not rain on your wonderful day!
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Hi all,
Just putting in my 2 cent worth.
I would not invite H, either. This was his choice and his consequences. Also, if they do not end up coming back eventually then it is better that we learn to live without them as soon as possible, by either going on with 'normal' Christmas traditions or developing new ones.
They are not children even though they act like them right now. They will muddle through, and find someone to feed them or take them in. We are all still too compassionate and worry about them-Look out for yourself is the name of the game now.
I however have a question: Do you still buy a gift or token gift for your kids to send along for H?
It feels so weird, buying gifts for everyone else, and not him. However, it really isn't in my heart to do so-yes, thank-you so much for abandoning me, your kids and your family, thank-you for all the pain, humiliation and just plain cruelty and then hand him a present"Merry Christmas!"
I just wonder whether a small token gift will at least send the message that perhaps we can remain on a friendly basis for the future at least for the sake of our kids?
Any ideas about that?
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A gift is something that you wish to give to another..no strings attached. I am leaving a gift for my H (he'll be in the house while I am away in Canada) and cookies and muffins....because I still care about him. He has given me nothing is such a long time (and I'm not talking about material stuff) but that's just not me.
In a way, it's the only thing I can do to pave the way..since I do not contact him or see him. It is a small reminder that I still love him..I feel like I just want to do what I feel is right.....ok, so I probably want to tug a bit at his heartstrings too.
Do what feels right to you.
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I got my H some cologne. I will send it with the kids - when they go to see him and open presents.
My kids will also each get him a gift. My S16 - wants to give him a "World's Greatest Dad" coffee cup. (As you can see, my S is very bitter). I will have the girls pick out something for him - as his gift idea (while pretty funny) is inappropriate.
I am pretty sure that my H will get something for me (he was always BIG on Christmas and gifts). Or, at least, some things for me from the kids. (They are supposed to go shopping tomorrow evening).
I am angry and hostile about Christmas and my H's selfishness. (Actually I am hurt and sad - but anger seems to help keep me from crying - so I am opting for anger).
It's really up to you. Get him a gift or not. I actually wanted to get him SOMETHING. I love him. I care about him. I would get a gift for someone I love and care about. Any, maybe, it will Pave the Way. Show that I hold no resentment - only unconditional love. Who knows?
This Christmas season is a difficult time to go through this c&*p.
Hugs to all,
L
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Well my Hs imagination knows no bounds. Guess what, he has bought exactly the same for everyone as he did last year. Book tokens, again boasting how he did it all in under an hour. So you can see, how much he is thinking of everyone else again this Christmas. We have actually bought him a gift. I will add my name to it along with the girls. I do still love him and I know I will miss him so much this year, it is our first Christmas apart. Last year he had announced after just a few weeks away that he wanted to come home, so he was invited for Christmas day and we spent the day as a family as usual. This will be our first in 20years that we are not together.
I am really not looking forward to it and will be glad when it is over. I try to put a on a brave face for the sake of the girls, but I am afraid they know me too well and it isn't working.
H has been in contact with eldest D today. Said he was shopping for a gift for me. I really hope OW wasn't with him whilst he was out buying it. He does usually spend the weekend with her. That will just be too much for me to take, if she helped him choose whatever he has bought. Why on earth could he not have asked our Ds to help him buy something for me, they would have loved to do that. For goodness sake how dense are these MLCers brains, they really have no idea how much they hurt peoples feelings do they.
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Greetings,
My 2 cents: Go with the option that will maintain the most joyful atmosphere in your home. It is supposed to be a special day; if H´s presence is going to take away from that, then no, don´t invite. If his presence will add joy to the day, then invite. I think he´s lost the choice of being invited for the sake of having a place to go or even to be with his kids. At this point, what will bring you and your kids the most peaceful day? Opt for that.
I did get a gift for H, but not an expensive one, rather one that I have given every year- a pair of xmas socks and pjs. Just b/c he tossed the vows out the window doesn´t mean that I have tossed the vows out the window. Thus, a tradition continues.
Cyberhug,
FTT
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I have helped my D's choose and buy gifts from them to him.
I think I will have a couple of nice bottles of wine on hand and wrapped in a wine Christmas box, and if he ends up having something for me, I will at least not be empty- handed to give him something, and he likes his wine(especially now!) That to me seems like a friendly token and not too personal. I'm not trying to be childish,( tit for tat and all that) but I guess I'm trying to mirror his behaviour. If he has something for me, then I will give him the wine. I don't want to be mean but I also want to show him that I'm not sitting here pining and that I've accepted the situation as it stands.
I guess we must all do what we feel is right. This is what is comfortable for me, and my kids don't have much money of their own so, I in fact had to buy the gifts from them to him.
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Well m-in-l just phone to ask again had I heard what Hs plans were for Christmas day. She is aware of the letters we sent him letting him know we wanted to spend it without him. Her hands are tied also, as they are going to Hs brothers family for the day.
I feel a little sorry for him, but he chose OW over his family so now he must face the consequences. He will more than likely already have arrangements made, but I would be the last person he would tell, and it will be his first Christmas away from his kids. She said it would serve him right if he had to eat a TV dinner on his own, giving him plenty of time to think about his choices. She also said again how ashamed and embarassed she was over the way he was treating everyone. To this day he has never said a word to his parents about what he has done, everything they know of the situation they have learnt from me.
This makes me rather angry as I have been left with the mess of telling people where we live what has gone on. Even friends and neighbours are only aware of what I have told them. We are still receiving Christmas cards addressed to the 4 of us. Even his work colleagues are including all of us on Christmas cards. Friends of his have phoned from time to time to speak to him, and again I have had to tell them what the situation is, leaving them utterly shocked as he had never been in touch to let them know. Also, quite upsetting for me having to break the news.
I hope he and OW both get the Christmas they deserve. HO HO HO!!
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Glimmer
You have done all you can now. You are right these are now his consequences of his decisions and he can't blame you.
My H has also used me to justify being with OW and her family for Christmas day. He also told the children it was my fault. Luckily they know the situation and don't believe him. I know the guilt will be overwhelming as he watches her neices and nephews opening their presents Christmas morning while he's not with his. But that is his decision and nothing I can do it's his journey.
But I think Christmas will be part of the issues they have to look at in the long term.
We are also having cards from HIS family with his name on............
Have a lovely Christmas and big hugs to you and your family.
xx
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Hi All,
As many know, my H has been having an 8-month physical affair (longer for EA, I assume) with my long-time "close friend." He continued his antics under the nose of our D13 (now 14) while living under the same roof with us for seven of those months. Despite telling him he could not continue to live with us while having an affair, staying out all night or all weekend with OW, taking OW on business trips we used to go on with him, living in the guest room with the door shut much of the time, not speaking to us, and not looking at or speaking to daughter, yelling at, swearing at and scaring her with his alien behavior, etc., he did not move out until 6 weeks ago. He was angry about having to move out while we "get to stay in the house," did not say good-bye to D, nor say anything else. He left while we were out of the house and that was it. After hearing nothing for 2.5 weeks, he sent an email asking how D is and saying she needs counseling. All the while he is acting nuts and won't seek help. Geesh! Six weeks have now passed without us seeing him and D has NO desire to. Once he moved out she said she "felt alive again," "can breathe again," and told me she has stopped grinding her teeth and having nightmares and is recovering her appetite. She is also in counseling.
The problem is that H keeps asking about her counseling, who she is seeing, etc. D.does not want this discussed with him at all and does not want H discussing any aspect of her with the OW. D will not communicate with him, and has told him multiple times previously that she "cannot have any relationship with him as long as he has any contact with the OW." H then turns around and defends OW and tells daughter how much OW loves and cares about her. This makes D want to throw up and scream. OW was someone D trusted as well and she feels betrayed by both father and OW and has not budged once in 8 months in terms of her resolve not to have any relationship with them. She says she does not miss her father at all as she does not know and cannot stand the person he has become, and feels only relief and an absence of anxiety and misery since H left.
H sent her a mushy Valentine card which she said was laughable, completely hypocritical to what he is doing and how he treated her, and she wouldn't even finish reading it. Then he left a bag from his recent business trip filled with lip gloss, soap and a candle. There was no note, but we assume it is for D. She wants none of it and wishes he would stop this. She also said, "I'm sure he got HER some of this as well (as D knows he used to get for me). Yuck!"
D's Counselor has said she is one of the most mature, grounded, clear, mentally healthy people she has ever worked with and that counseling is optional for her. She also said D has healthy boundaries regarding her father and good reason for her decision not to see him for now.
So here are the questions: How do I get H off my back about counseling and not have to answer his questions? He already knows that D does not want this discussed with him and in turn OW.
What do I do when he starts to push seeing D when she has NO desire and gets physically sick and distraught at the thought of it? Yes, H knows this.
How does D handle cards and gifts that she does not want, that do not feel authentic or honest to her at all and that she sees as manipulative. She is very polite, but does not reciprocate or thank him, because she does not want to open the door to communication with him and does not want to send mixed messages.
I feel caught in the middle between a traumatized D who just wants him away and to leave her completely alone and at peace, and risking pushing him to take legal action to force visitation. He is in total denial about her resolve and its depth, and will not accept or respect her feelings or wishes. He thinks he and OW are gong to create a life with her three kids and our D being a part of it for some portion of the time, and our D is adamant that this will not happen and is not something she has any interest in what so ever. She actually wants to move out of town to get away from him, OW, and our social group that is all aware of this mess, thanks to the big mouth of OW, and just start over.
Advice?
Phoenix
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Hi Phoenix,
I did a bit of a double take when i saw this thread pop up again!
D's Counselor has said she is one of the most mature, grounded, clear, mentally healthy people she has ever worked with and that counseling is optional for her. She also said D has healthy boundaries regarding her father and good reason for her decision not to see him for now.
So here are the questions: How do I get H off my back about counseling and not have to answer his questions? He already knows that D does not want this discussed with him and in turn OW.
What do I do when he starts to push seeing D when she has NO desire and gets physically sick and distraught at the thought of it? Yes, H knows this.
FWIW I think the answer is clear, your D is of an age when she has the right to her own views and wishes on this matter.
He can be told that in straightforward language. You do not have to answer his questions because you are respecting his D's wishes.
From your first posts I commented on how mature and grounded your D seemed and the counsellor clearly feels confident enough in her level of maturity to feel that her decisions and wishes in this matter are sound.
What strikes me as so mature about her is her stating she will not have a r with him whilst OW is around, not that she doesn't want one with him at all. And perhaps later down the line there will be room within that for compromise between your h and your D.
I think she will be aware what kind of action her F could take, and I've no doubt she will quickly make herself familiar with her rights in this matter too. She sounds mature enough to be involved in this process.
If i remember right your D is 14? In which case it will be extremely difficult for your h to force her to do anything, particularly as her counsellor has such a strong view of her maturity.
Your h has a fantasy in his mind, and no doubt he will claim it is you who is manipulating the situation. If he does there is very little point in engaging him in any discussion about that. He will have to learn to respect her wishes just as you are doing.
Has she written a letter to her F? Perhaps if she writes a polite letter stating her wishes and wants at this point and her wishes regarding gifts may be in order. Perhaps her counsellor can help her to write it?
It could then be copied and kept if needed as testimony on her part if he pushes the Court aspect. And a conversation with a L may help put her and your mind at rest. Just a thought.
All you can do is be there to listen and guide her, not influence or persuade. She needs space to heal and think things through, you both do.
Much love to you. xxxxxxxxxxxxx
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Voyager has said, EXACTLY what I would have said Phoenix. Your daughter is by LAW able to decide for herself. There is not a court in the country that will force her to do anything regarding her father she does not wish to do.
She sounds very mature indeed and I think Voyager has made a good suggestion. A polite, precise letter stating her wishes to her father, with her boundaries and conditions enclosed. Good idea about having her counselor look it over, perhaps even helping her to word it. As sad as it may seem, I very much believe everything should be cleared by your lawyer.... just to be on the safe side. MLCer's are quite cagey and manipulative, so you must protect yourselves.
There is no need for you to be the "go between"... simply say, our daughter is old enough to make these decisions herself. You have her letter, I hope you will respect her wishes. Then simply leave him to it.
Hard to fight and argue with somebody who will not fight and argue back.
Hugs... you are lucky to have Voyager, she gives very wise counsel... Stayed...
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Dear Voyager and Stayed,
Thank you for your always wise, thoughtful and supportive replies. After I posted last night, I saw the thread on Children and OW/OM and was not surprised so many of us are dealing with this complicated and stressful situation. My daughter expressed today that she is having thoughts about becoming an attorney or some similar career to support and affect change for children in custody situations. She is frustrated by the courts increasingly standard decision that parents have shared custody. In our state, youth must adhere to the order of the court regarding custody and visitation until they are 18 years of age. Some judges take the child's views and desires into account, but most feel the best interest of the child is automatically served by having an equal relationship with both parents unless one has been proven unfit (not as easy as it may sound). The other parent can be found in contempt of court if she or he does not make the child go for visitation, and I just read an article today about a 14 year old boy who spent 4 days in jail for refusing visitation with his father. It's absurd, but a lot has changed with the court system in the U.S. It used to matter if infidelity was involved, but now states are No Fault and most judges don't bat an eye or even allow testimony as they do no see how it is relevant to support and custody.
I think my D has good reason to be concerned. If her father files for divorce and legally pursues custody, he is likely to get 50% or anything else he requests below that amount of time. D is appalled that kids are mandated to live in or visit unhealthy environments, morally questionable if not objectionable conditions, etc. And in her case the OW is someone she knew as my good friend and who was like a trusted aunt to her. D cannot and will not see OW as her father's partner in any stretch of the imagination, will not legitimize them in any way, and sees them both as reprehensible betrayers. Meanwhile her kids are allegedly "just fine" and will accept whatever (of course their father (also a LBS) started dating someone 17 years younger as soon a he filed for divorce against his adulterous wife, so he likes shared custody and having time for his new love. Good grief. They are all nuts. Marriages, families and children's mental health are not disposable, yet of the four adults directly involved in this, I am the only one standing and not with another partner.
Our D has clearly expressed her sentiments to her father, but he continues to disregard her as he did with the affair and quitting on our marriage and family. I am also concerned that D will be dissuaded from continuing counseling if he does not stop asking for the name of her counselor and trying to get information about her sessions. Unfortunately, many states do not have confidentiality laws for children, and even noncustodial parents have the right to access a child's medical and counseling records. Our D said this only discourages kids from seeking counseling and speaking the truth for fear of how it will impact them and their situation in the future. Grrrrrr.
Phoenix
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One more thing to add to your stress level and it is hard to see a way out. I can see how some parents go "underground" in order to protect their kids.
I would hate to see her break off all contact with her dad, for both their sakes so my only suggestion is to somehow convince your H that he needs to see her without OW. Would your daughter consent to that?
Good luck and let us know what happens.
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Phoenix,
In my last post I commented that your D has said she doesn't want to see her F whilst OW is around. Not closing the door on him, but on the situation.
Therein lies some compromise in that they could see each other on neutral territory without OW.
I'm astounded by how the custody laws pan out where you live. I am not being flippant when i say that it sounds like a campaigning issue. Are there any Charitable groups or action groups that support the rights of children where you live?? I think your D has many good points to make about unhealthy environments etc.
Have you consulted with a Lawyer already?
xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
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Phoenix, I am shocked as well. The U.S.'s seems to be moving backwards, I know in Canada and GB, children over the age of 12 have the right to make such decisions. Unbelievable that a child must be subjected to such situations until they are 18... also, doesn't make much sense, seeing as they can move out of the home almost any time they want.
I agree with the others, you need to talk to a lawyer and find out the TRUTH. Believe me, everything you hear is not always true, so find out for yourself, from a lawyer of the state. Assume NOTHING dear!
Hugs Stayed...
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I just wanted to point out that my D wanted to see her dad on her own. The few times he could manage it, OW rang him every time. D asked him if she could see him more and he said it was difficult if she wouldn't accept OW.
D said to H, 'you just don't get it, do you?' And he didn't! So now there has been no contact between them for 6 months. He just couldn't see D on her own. It didn't fit in with his plans. So sad.
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True to Myself, that is really sad! He is going to have some issues to deal with from such a decision. Why they think they can shove OP down the children's throats never fails to amaze me. My h also tried that on our youngest son, who simply said, "sorry dad, can't do that. I would be rude to her and that would be a nasty way to behave in her home and all. Won't do it. Don't want to know her, nor see you with her. I have enough bad memories attached to this sh*t". H never mentioned it again.
Good for your daughter though T&M, she is strong like her momma.
hugs Stayed...
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D feels strongly that she cannot have a relationship with her father if he is in any contact with the OW. Her father is as alien to her as he is to me. His strange behavior and total disconnection from her for the 8 months prior to now (while still in the same house) has really changed the way she feels about him. Not to mention that he yelled and swore at her and stood over her with clenched jaw and fists when she dared to not just accept his behavior and excuses. I don't mean that she was rude or disrespectful. These were times when she would try to share her feelings with him about how much she missed him, her family, her life...
He didn't even speak to her on her birthday when still living at home, but disappeared with OW the night before her b-day party, showed up a couple hours before the guests arrived and was furious that she did not accept his offer to greet guests and act (the operative word being ACT) like father of the year. She said she will not provide the stage on which he can pretend to the rest of the world that he is the "good guy" when he has been so emotionally cruel to her and me and is nothing of the man we once knew. She is grieving her father as if a death, but the body snatcher who has take over her father's mind, is toxic to her emotional and physical health and she needs to be NC for her own well-being. She is much happier and healthier with him out of the house and says she truly does not miss him. She literally gets a bitter taste in her mouth when anyone speaks of him. Se has stopped grinding her teeth and having nightmares since he moved out.
Interestingly, I think she has the perspective ad detachment down much better than I do, but society and the courts do not want to accept that stance from a young person. Why should their need to do what is best for themselves be overlooked or different than the rest of us? I understand they are not the LBS, but they are the Left behind Children, every bit as betrayed and abandoned, disillusioned and shocked by a parent they thought they could always count on, and should have been able to.
MLC is so sad and destructive to these innocent young lives even when parents want to believe it is not or "children are resilient." We are all resilient in some way, but that does not mean unscarred and unchanged...
Phoenix
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Just wondered how everyone handles this?
If the MLCer wants to remain a part of these events, do you allow it?
Or is this a boundary that you have put up - as a consequence for the continuing R with the OW (in my case this is becoming more and more public - despite the fact that he tells me he isn't ready to have a relationship with anyone - huh?. I have to wonder what he is having with the OW then :P To a large extent the boys and I are protected from this as he is living in another part of town and doesn't interact with any former friends, just his new 'hip' and work crowd.)
My kids (teenagers) don't want their family traditions split into two different locations, and would prefer that H comes here.
They have never met OW - at least not since she became the OW!! They did two years ago when she joined us in our home for dinner - before she became the OW. She is so unmemorable that all three of our kids cannot recall her at all!!!
I'm pretty sure H knows exactly what reaction she'd get from them. They are usually the most polite kids, but would have no problem in telling her what they think of them both, given what they have experienced in the past couple of years.
Would love to know thoughts on this one ........
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Kikki
Last year, for Thanksgiving... we would usually go to my family, but I was to much of a wreck, (h and OW professing their love to eachother on his FB) That day...so he went to his parents and I went to mine.
for Christmas, Ow had left early that morning back to NY, so H spent Christmas with me and My D at home.
( I ended up in the ER with an allergic reations to some anitbiotics) LOL!!
New years, H and I spent it "secretly" together at his Apartment.
my H's birthday He spent alone...My bday just passed he is in NY with OW. My D's 13th Bday in Feb, my H came to her
bday party and stayed for several hours.
Now that it has been a year, I wouldnt mind if he came to my family or vis versa...We actually spent a family reunion
(his family) together and easter he was with OW. He did come to my mom's for a gathering while OW was in NY
LOL...wow...that sounds VERY confusing huh???? This would not be a boundery for me..family is family no matter what.
(in my eyes)
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Oh Syn you had me chuckling ;D ;D ;D
That is kind of confusing BUT I guess what you're saying is, you do whatever feels right at the time??? No hard and fast rules as the rollercoaster is everchanging?
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LOL!!!! ya, Pretty much!! ha ha ha :D :D :D :D
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No. After he left, some five years ago, he wanted me to go to his bithday party. OW1 would be there as well. I said I would not go. He also wanted to come to my birthday party, alone. At first I thought, well, why not? He is being nice lately. But I end up thinking it would not be a good ideia.
Six months after BD I have move back to our home town, he remained in capital city. He used to come to our town for christmas, did not do so last years, but we never saw each other. We have not seen each other since may 2008. And, after he filled, the first time, for a fault divorce against me, I have even stoped text him happy birthday, merry christmas or happy new year.
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Well, I've had lots of years of this....
I guess the summary is that yes, he does get invited to participate, more or less. Slightly depends on what.
As he has never acknowledged my birthday since he left, I haven't asked him to celebrate. I have so far always, or almost always (it's been so long that it's getting hazy...) acknowledged his, at first with a present as it seemed appropriate given where we were at the time, this year just saying happy birthday when he came to do kid driving that day.
The first 2 years he asked to have Christmas with us, I said yes. Last 2 years he hasn't been here, once because he wanted to go see his mother, last year I did invite him and he didn't reply and didn't show up; I heard through a friend that he "would have found it too hard". Those first 2 years we exchanged presents, not the last 2.
He has always been welcome for kids' birthday; this year we had a "family party", with us and the godparents. He cooked a lot of the food for it and stayed for most of the day. Other years he hasn't attended kids' "kid" parties, but has come on the day to participate in our morning ritual (can't remember if he's done it every year, but most).
So a very mixed bag.... trying to stay flexible on the tightrope.
x
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Hey T&L, You have been on my mind the past few days. Hope all is well....
this is the trick:
"So a very mixed bag.... trying to stay flexible on the tightrope."
You may not want Monster at your happy event. Or a surly teen that spends the whole time texting in a corner can put a damper on things. Sometimes you don't know what you will get, but often you catch a vibe. Consider if your family can roll with rude and/or 'life of the party' behaviors, and/or if their presence is comforting no matter what.
For example, Christmas 08, our first in crisis, I did not include H in any celebration. Not the a.m. Santa activities or dinner at my mom's. I did ask him to join us at the movies in the evening. This worked out great b/c the kids got to see him, without any pressure or awkwardness. (BTW, he literally clung to my arm throughout the movie and there was only 1 trip to the bathroom. ::) )
This last May, I felt I had to insist he attend DS's graduation and dinner. H sat at the table and pouted, went to the bathroom over 6 times, refused to order anything, OW was clearly upset he was there and b/c of the drama, he was punishing us. Put a HUGE damper on the celebration. Wish I had let him go with the 'I have to work' excuse...
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This is an issue I have been thinking about recently.
Last year Thanksgiving and Christmas were a few months after BD. My birthday and our anniversary were about three weeks after BD. My H was invited for Thanksgiving and Christmas and he did come. He actually shopped for gifts for the kids all by himself - something he had never done before.
This year, I really don't want to be around him. It is not that I am being spiteful, but the reality is he walked away from us, and therefor, our holiday celebrations. If the kids want to invite him they can but I will ask that they have a celebration that is separate for ours.
Maybe, I have detached to much?
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Nope stayingthecourse, I think you're doing just fine.
I personally think that celebrations like Holidays, Birthday etc. should be up to the individual doing the celebrating taking reality into account. For example, it is not really "realistic" to have a spouse living in another home, in bed with another person, not contributing financially or spiritually or emotionally or anything to the family...and have them come to Christmas because they don't want to do a tree of their own. They left. That's reality. If they want to deny reality they are free to do so, but they are not free to drag everyone else into their delusion!
So for those holidays I suggest "What do you feel up to doing?" and "What is the right thing to do?" Do you *want* to have them there? Then ask them! Do you want to have your own, private celebration? Then do not invite them or turn them down if they try to invite themselves. "NO" is a legitimate response and you don't need to explain. Likewise it is reasonable and legitimate that if they make the choice to leave their responsibilities, they also leave the "benefits" like shared family celebrations.
In a summary, what I'm saying is that for the sake of reality, it may be misleading to yourself or the kids to continue to pretend or act like you two are together. On the other hand, if the kids are happy and your MLCer is able to curb the Monster and you feel up to it...WHY NOT? This *IS* their real family and it just may remind them that life with you and the kids is happy and fun. There is no definitive answer, and yet it's always helpful to think of "doing the right thing" even when it's hard. It may be more right to tell them "no" and let them experience what leaving means! Or is may be more right to offer a hand of graciousness and demonstrate that family = happiness too.
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LGO - I think you did right to insist he come to the graduation as it is a once in lifetime thing, the dinner I don't know about.
AC - I agree about it being to your comfort level, but I think one really has to take into account first what is most important to the kids. I hate to even think about my W and their mother not being here Christmas morning this year to share with them what Santa has brought them. I also hate to think of Christmas shopping alone as that was always special to us. I don't know how we're going to decide who buys what, and I'm not ready for the kids to have to be split at Christmas. They already have 3 Christmases as we do one at my mom's and at her parents' as well, so adding another would screw things up royally. Also, they live HERE so that should be where their primary Christmas is at. Thanksgiving is another holiday that I can't imagine my W sharing in our traditional night-before dinner. That one I can live with as she will be missing out on something that was always special to her that I think the kids will get over.
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Thundarr~
You make a good point--thinking of the kids. At this time your wife has not definitely left, filed, and divorce is eminent so there is no reasonable reason to have your kids learn that mom made the choice to ditch us and our family holidays. However, it is reality (painful reality) that she in fact HAS chosen to leave your family holidays. So in an instance like yours maybe it would be reasonable to say "I'm choosing to continue our holidays as we traditionally did them when you lived here. If you want to join the kids and I, we would like that. If you do not want to join us, that is your choice to make." Make sense? In other words YOU may be hurt about "their mother not being here Christmas morning this year to share with them what Santa has brought them" but in reality that is what she has chosen to do! Then it's up to her to figure out how or when she would do it, given that SHE chose to leave and SHE chose to add yet another monkey wrench into the works.
Does that make sense? Sometimes holidays can be a real eye-opener. Celebrating with the family CAN be fun and happy--maybe it's not all bad "at home." The cost of my choices is that I don't have Christmas with my kids--maybe it's not all good "away from home." See what I mean?
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Thanks everyone for your thoughts.
it has helped clarify things for me. H has been gone 15mths. Lives with OW. Despite threats whenever I tell him he cannot see me, he has not followed through with any legal action at all. We still own property and our company together.
I think because of the above (despite the OW), and because of the kids, I will invite him here again this Christmas. We also have two kids birthdays in November, and will also invite him to join us should he choose.
He was with us last Christmas (his suggestion) and it ended up being a disaster with Monster spew. I asked him to leave - it was hideous! I went as dark on him as possible for weeks after that. (as dark as you can go with a business and kids together).
He has come a long way since then, and we haven't seen Monster spew for many months. I doubt that, even in this state, he'd allow that to happen again.
How he would explain Christmas with us (if that is what he chooses) to the OW will be his problem to solve, or not.
The kids have already said that there is no way they are going to his place on Christmas, and having the day broken up.
To complicate things slightly - my siblings are organising a large gathering (they all live in another part of the country) and of course would love us to join them. Part of me would love to be there, but another part would feel sorry for my H (yeah - I need my head read!!)
I guess I would also officially need his agreement to take the boys, and I'm not sure that he would give it.
Hmmm ..... My family thinks I am nuts to even ask him - thinking what rights does a man who bails have to his kids? As he continues to pay for them, I think he probably does. Tricky!
He wasn't invited to join in on my birthday this year, although I could tell he was hoping I'd ask (I didn't). He did help the boys buy presents for me, and sent me a txt on the day with a large X on the end. Plus, made some excuse to phone me on the day (unrelated to my birthday). ???
He also asked to join us at New Year. I said no to that one - we had a bunch of friends coming over, and it wouldn't have been appropriate.
He also asked if he could join us for Easter dinner. I agreed to that one too. He was 'beautifully behaved'. I have no idea why these days are so important to him?
What about the other 360 something?
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Bumping this up for those new to the forum.
For the past two years my H has been invited to join us here for Christmas and the boys' Birthdays.
This year, because he is once again pursuing legal action and vacillating between life number one and life number two, I have recently set a boundary where he is no longer allowed in our home. He will now have to make his own arrangements for Christmas and Birthdays.
It makes me sad as I know it most likely means the days will now be split up for the boys, and that I will be on my own for part of Christmas day, but that is the reality of the situation and a consequence of the choices that he continues to make.
I'll handle this far more easily than I would have in the years prior though, and will plan something nice for myself, or possibly join friends as my family all live so far away.
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Question for anyone that celebrates and gives gifts during the holidays (ie; Christmas, Hanukkah, etc).
Will you be buying and giving a gift to the MLCer this year?
Will you be giving it as a gift from yourself, or if you have children will it be strictly from the children without your name on the gift?
Last year my MLCer went out and bought an expensive and nice camera for me. The year before that an IPad. He always spends a significant amount of money on me for Christmas. Since BD I have asked him not to buy anything for me, but he still does.
This year I feel like he is in a different place regarding gift giving. He completely ignored me on Thanksgiving. I don't see Christmas being any different. The other night I was in the mall and the question popped into my mind if I should get him anything this year. Last year I did get him something that I thought he could really use for his job and he loved it.
I thought about giving the girls money and letting them pick out and buy their own gifts for their father this year.
I feel like, if we ever get back together, then that would be the appropriate time to giving each other gifts from the heart.
I'm just really confused on what to do. On one hand I also thought about giving him something from just myself...and maybe on Christmas Eve (if I even see him) just to let him know that I do care about him...but then everything I have read about detaching, says no gifts...ever...
So what are you all going to do?
CSL
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CSL,
I am just passed year 3 of BD. I ordered a gift to be delivered to my exH's home for the past 3 years...........nothing extremely expensive but just something to show him some kindness and that I'm still the same compassionate person regardless. This year.........I am seriously leaning more on NOT doing anything. I feel he needs to "feel" me pulling away. I don't know if it will make one bit of difference or not. He hasn't acknowledge many Holiday's or Birthday's since he left so I figure I need to stop doing so myself.
I'm interested to see what others share with you on this subject.
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My h and I had stopped buying for each other the last couple of Christmas's...last year we kind of got each other a gift. This year I do plan on getting him a keurig coffee maker for his new apartment and I'm having a friend he grew up with make an art piece out of mason jars. This friend is very awesome with his designs and it is something my h would think is cool and it would be a sentimental piece as it is made by a friend of his. I don't expect anything...but I get very excited at giving during Christmas...I can't help it. ;D
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Since my h left aug 2010 he hasn't sent me a birthday card, Xmas card, mothers day card, birthday present or Xmas present, not even a text whatever to say happyxmas or happy birthday, not even anything from the boys via him. I have sent him via the boys birthday cards, Xmas cards, fathers day cards and presents and he has always only thanked his chdren them, even when he knows where they have come from. This year fir his birthday I just sent a card from the boys. This Xmas he will get nothing, why waste the little money I have on someone who cannot even have the decency to even send a card from the boys to me, I would rather spend the money on the children. It doesn't surprise me though as it was ways me who brought the cards etc fir everyone when we were together. One day he may surprise me! X
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This may sound trite, but my s9 told me that his D bought a necklace while they were together the other weekend. I'm pretty sure its not for me but for ow. I will give my h a 50.00 gift card for sure. If I get the necklace, I will give him the xbox that I bought. If there is no necklace, the xbox goes back to the store. This will be first Christmas since BD in April and he only moved out in November so not sure what will happen. :-\
I will still probably get him some small gifts from son.
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For me no way! No kids and after his insane Facebook rantings of how he's the "happiest he's ever been" in the past 2 weeks I am just not interested. Maybe I can feel compassion at some point in the future but right here and now, no, he's not just hurting me but my entire family and friends. His OW can tend to his needs right now, I am over it.
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So what are you all going to do?
I've delegated the gift buying and gift giving role to xW's new husband. Saves me a job. ;)
honour
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I won be buying him anything. I personally don't want to celebrate it at all I just want to enjoy my days off and pamper me.
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My H's birthday was Nov 20th and the boys wanted to get him a gift and go out to dinner with him. So we bought a football shirt for him. He took the boys to dinner and when he dropped them off he was talking to me about the dinner like he would have talked to me prior to BD. I was so confused that night. Anyway, when he was leaving he never thanked me so I asked him if he liked it and he said yes and just walked away so I yelled back to him "your welcome". I He then thanked me. I also gave him a card from me that was provocative and funny. He texted me hahaha perfect card, thanks. For our anniversary in Aug. I gave him a card that was perfect. He didn't want to accept that but I forced it and never got a response. So for Christmas I plan on getting him something from the boys that they will pick out. I don't expect anything from him but I WILL be the better one for the kids as I feel they need to give and not only receive.
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This may sound trite, but my s9 told me that his D bought a necklace while they were together the other weekend. I'm pretty sure its not for me but for ow. I will give my h a 50.00 gift card for sure. If I get the necklace, I will give him the xbox that I bought. If there is no necklace, the xbox goes back to the store. This will be first Christmas since BD in April and he only moved out in November so not sure what will happen. :-\
I will still probably get him some small gifts from son.
SF,
Keep the X-box if you don't give it to him! They are so much fun! And they have a lot of games for adults that I think you would enjoy. One of the fun ones is the dance game that you now don't even have to hold onto any controller, it just "see's you" and your movements...it's pretty cool!
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Absolutely NOT. There is basically no contact between us and I know he is with OW. 2 of my kids are older 21, and 20. They can figure out if they want to give him anything. My 17yr s will not be. H left last year 2 weeks before Xmas so this is not a time I wish to celebrate with him by giving him anything. 2 days before he walked was his bday. He left some of bday gifts I gave him here. I won't be acknowledging his birthday this year either. I feel like he left and that means he left it all, that's the natural consequence. JMO.
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The children will be giving something to their Dad. A gift each.
I will have a gift in reserve if he chooses to give one to me, along with a box of chocolate. I gift him like I would a brother.
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My MLCer has not acknowledged any holidays with me since bomb drop. There have been no gift exchanges, but contact has been consistent the entire three years since bomb drop.
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SF,
Keep the X-box if you don't give it to him! They are so much fun! And they have a lot of games for adults that I think you would enjoy. One of the fun ones is the dance game that you now don't even have to hold onto any controller, it just "see's you" and your movements...it's pretty cool!
CSL, we already have one for my s9. I was being generous and going to give this to my h for his man cave so he would have something to do. ::) I guess he's getting that from ow so now I'm not feeling so generous! >:( I bought it before I found out they were back in contact. We do enjoy the one we have. We will see how it goes for the holiday......
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No way. He has ackknowleged nothing since he left...has ignored all holidays, birthdays, even a family death. I am sure his wife to be will be in la-la land shoping for her hubby to be (crazy MLC hubby to be!!) Saving my money for brighter days.
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Okay, just to break the monotony I will provide a different answer. It is the answer for me. Each person has to decide for themselves and their situation.
Many people have posted that since their MLCer isn't getting them anything, they won't get him/her anything. That reveals a lack of detachment, being caught up in what your MLCer will or won't do or how he/she will respond. Take a step back. Let that go.
I've been at this for over 5 years. The only Christmas I didn't get him anything was right after bomb drop when we had agreed to be completely NC to see if that's what we wanted. Since then I have given him a gift each year. I expect nothing, and usually receive nothing and it honestly doesn't bother me. He knows that I love Christmas. I give for the joy of giving.
We have been essentially NC for the last two years. I have not acknowledged birthdays or anniversaries, but I have acknowledged Christmas. The last two years I have struggled with whether or not to send him a card or a gift and both years I have felt guided to give both. Just when in my anger I planned to give him nothing, the perfect gift appeared and I knew I had to get it for him and the anger melted away. The gift was for my husband, not my MLCer.
I will tell you that the Christmas after I filed for divorce, when he was dating someone else, I felt guided to give him a taste of home. We hadn't spoken in months and I thought we were on the way to being divorced, when I saw the latest novel by one of his favorite authors and it inspired me to send the book (I read it first - LOL) along with a can of coffee and some homemade macaroons. Just as if he were sitting on the couch with Christmas music playing. It's something his girlfriend could not give him. Memories of the good times.
The answer is... forget the advice of others, listen to your heart. Pray about it. The answer will come to you. But whatever you do, don't do it out of anger or expecting a response. Do it for you.
Someday, they will remember your kindness and they will know they did not deserve it.
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Unbroken - very well written. I am planning on giving my h a gift without anything in return. Something small but personal.
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merged this in with another very similar thread.
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Thanks for the merge OP ;)
I love giving at Christmas time also. I will probably wait until it's less than a week away before I get him anything, and then again I may completely change my mind and do nothing.
During our time together he was never into Christmas anyway. I was the one who made the "magic" happen for our family.
From the time our girls were very little...with my playing Santa and staying up until 3 am, wrapping presents, stuffing stocking and finishing it up to make it perfect....to making an awesome Christmas dinner...to the annual tradition of a movie outing on Christmas day, I did it all. I can still do all that without him so I will carry on the traditions alone.
This year I feel like I'm totally into Christmas and ready to have an awesome holiday. This is the 4th Christmas after BD 2009. That first December after BD, I wanted nothing to do with anything. I could barely get out of bed much less put together Christmas. I was a mess. But the difference too, was that he was still living at the house...now with him gone...it's much easier. Go figure.
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The answer is... forget the advice of others, listen to your heart. Pray about it. The answer will come to you. But whatever you do, don't do it out of anger or expecting a response. Do it for you.
Someday, they will remember your kindness and they will know they did not deserve it.
Thank you Unbroken!
For those of you who read Charlyne Cares on Rejoice Ministries, she recommends acknowledging special days like birthdays, holidays.
The point is....do you want to be RIGHT? or do you want someday to have your marriage back?
Do two wrongs make a right?
If you have children together, for the sake of maintaining a relationship that will occur with your MLCer whether you want it or not....would you not want to help them in this awkward situation by helping them get something for their parent?
Even in war, a truce is often called for on Christmas day.
Most importantly, what would Jesus do?
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I think Unbroken and xyzcf are speaking from places of great wisdom. Thank you!
TMHP
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Many people have posted that since their MLCer isn't getting them anything, they won't get him/her anything. That reveals a lack of detachment, being caught up in what your MLCer will or won't do or how he/she will respond. Take a step back. Let that go.
Would it be appropriate behaviour to send my xW a Christmas gift given she has married the OM. Should I send another man's wife a Christmas gift?
honour
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I am usually prompted by my children if they want to get gifts fir their dad and if they don't ask I won't get anything, they know I will get something if they ask. My s12 usually asks my mom to get something for me for celebrations from them, so they are not worried to ask. Not sure ic they ask h parents, they are not so close to them.
Don't get me wrong, I don't wish h a horrible Xmas but I would rather spend Xmas and pennies on people who are close to me and who I am spending time with. I have always loved Xmas and my family all get together which I and my boys love. I do not want to spend Xmas thinking about what my h thinks about me sending him a Xmas card or pressie or not. X
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I will not be getting H a gift this year. I did not last year either. We do not have any regular contact and I believe it would be odd for me to send him a gift. My kids are young adults so I leave it to them to get their Dad something. I am not withholding a gift out of spite or anger. It feels to me it would be an act of pursuit to send something at this point.
I did give him a gift for his birthday the first year after BD. He made a point of wearing it the next time I saw him. But that was in the first year when he was more of a clinging boomerang.
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Hello there,
This may help to give a perspective too
http://www.baggagereclaim.co.uk/when-you-feel-under-pressure-from-family-to-forget-a-drama-just-in-time-for-the-holidays/?utm_source=feedburner&utm_medium=feed&utm_campaign=Feed%3A+BaggageReclaim-TheGuideToSingleLivingDatingRelationshipsAndOfCourseManTaming+%28Baggage+Reclaim+Relationship+Blog%29
This website has helped me in a lot of ways, essentially it is about being the best version of you imaginable and having relationships which are emotionally healthy and built on good self esteem.
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I just read this and decided to share it. This has made me think in a slightly different way. Even though I posted earlier on this thread that I do not intend to send a gift to my exH.......my heart has been changing.
WEDNESDAY, DECEMBER 12, 2012
An Undeserved Gift
But God demonstrates His own love toward us, in that while we were still sinners, Christ died for us.
—Romans 5:8
Who is on your gift list this Christmas? Usually, we give gifts to family and friends. We want to buy gifts for people we love and people we care about. We tend to give gifts to those who treat us well, people who are kind and considerate to us. And often we will give gifts in return for gifts that we have received. Some of us will even buy gifts for our pets.
However, we generally don't buy gifts for our enemies, do we? We don't give a gift to the person who has slandered us in the past year. We don't give a gift to the irate neighbor who never has a kind word to say. We don't give a gift to someone who has tried to run us out of business. Nor do we send a gift to the thief who stole the car stereo last month.
But think about this: when God sent Jesus Christ, His Son, and gave us this ultimate gift, He gave it to us while we were still His enemies. The Bible tells us, "But God demonstrates His own love toward us, in that while we were still sinners, Christ died for us" (Romans 5:8. We did nothing whatsoever to merit or deserve this gift. In fact, what we really deserve is judgment, because we all have sinned against God. We all have deliberately crossed that line.
The amazing truth of Christmas is that, in spite of our sins, God sent His Son to save us. In that tiny manger in Bethlehem, He gave us an undeserved gift.
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My ex (still married but feel uncomfortable using the term H) will not be a part of our Christmas again this year. I will not be buying him a gift or card and I really doubt our D's will either. We had a great Christmas without him last year and even better we didn't have to endure the inlaws nor buy gifts for them either. We're not doing anything different and we're not leaving him out, he chose to leave.
He has said that his sister is taking her children to visit their dad in Malaysia. His mum is not going to go with them and stay home to keep him company. I can't imagine their Christmas Day. Certainly not filled with fun, laughter and family. We always have fab Christmas Days!
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But God demonstrates His own love toward us, in that while we were still sinners, Christ died for us.
—Romans 5:8
However, we generally don't buy gifts for our enemies, do we?
"Be careful not to do your 'acts of righteousness' before men, to be seen by them. If you do, you will have no reward from your Father in heaven. [Matt 6:1]
Should the MLCer/abandoner/cheater/abuser be sent gifts anonymously?
honour
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However, we generally don't buy gifts for our enemies, do we?
Perhaps not, but we forgive them.
Pope John Paul II forgave Mehmet Ali Agca who tried to assassinate him. If Christmas is truly about Christ, then should we not try to follow what He taught?
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This is my third Christmas since bomb drop. The first Christmas was just brutal. I went back and forth about whether or not to have him there but finally in the end, I asked him to come over for a few hours in the morning for the kids. We did not exchange gifts but the kids got us each presents. My mother in law had stayed with me overnight on Christmas eve to support me and she was a god send. It was the hardest, most tension filled 3 hours of my life. He was all smiles and pretending to be happy. Both kids came over to me and asked me if I was ok. I was barely keeping it together. I eventually went back to bed because I could not take it anymore. As he was leaving, he off handedly said to me in the coldest voice I have ever heard from him, "thanks for the truce" and got in his car and drove away. I wanted to throw up. I vowed then and there that I was not going to put myself or my kids through that aggain. Now, our arrangement is that the kids and I doing Christmas morning on Christmas Eve and then he picks the kids up at 2 pm and returns them on Christmas day at 2pm. My whole family gets together for dinner on Christmas day and I thought that was more important than having the kids open their presents on the 25th. It was a compromise but it seems to be working.
I hope this helps.
.
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Me and my boys are at my patents Xmas day and boxing day. All my family come round to my parents boxing day and we have such a great time.
My h had asked me if he can see the boys sometime Xmas day but as he has always said we should ask the boys what they want to do (one of his parent issues I think), I asked them. S12 said ge dud not want to go round to h house and he would call him and s11 said he did not care what he did.
Not sure what h thinks but he is either going to accept that or not, we shall see what occurs this w/end. I personally think the boys should see him but I will not force them to do something they don't want to do. Hopefully h will have a talk with them this w/end. I am not sorting it out for him, it is up to him to sort out.
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Coming up is my 3rd Christmas since h left. The first Christmas was a disaster. He came and s18 at the time gave h a picture frame filled with pictures of all of us together (I didn't know he was going to do that). Then h wanted to leave and the kids begged him not to leave I went over because D15 at the time was hanging on him to get him to stay, h ended up pushing me away and then S18 punched his dad in the face and said don't ever touch my mom again. :'(
Fast forward to the next Christmas. No sign of h at all but we bought joint gifts.
This Christmas he says he's coming the day after Christmas for a couple days. kids are heartbroken. I actually made plans to do something else Christmas day because I thought he was coming on Christmas day and I didn't want to be at home. He is buying his own presents for the kids. He asked me what I wanted I said nothing from him. I have to admit I bought something I knew he was going to like for D17 to give to him. When I told h that I would leave on Christmas if he wanted to come and spend it with the kids he said well you don't have to leave.