Midlife Crisis: Support for Left Behind Spouses
Archives => Archived Topics => Topic started by: Rollercoasterider on August 09, 2014, 01:49:28 PM
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Bill Doherty (he started the Marriage Friendly Therapists Registry) has created a new counseling protocol called Discernment Counseling (http://discernmentcounseling.com/) (DC). It is for Mixed Agenda couples where one is Leaning In and the Other is Leaning Out. The above link goes to his website that gives a description of Discernment Counseling. He also write this article (http://www.psychotherapynetworker.org/magazine/recentissues/2011-novdec/item/1439-in-or-out) a few years ago for Psychotherapy Networker.
Bill and his daughter Elizabeth are starting a new training for therapists and there is a big push they are doing right now to get the word out. I would like to contact him and see if he would be open to an interview. I have several questions and I imagine many of you could add to my questions, so I am asking you--for those who are interested and have time--if you would read the article and the DC website's description and let me know your thoughts and questions.
I don't know if he will agree to talk with me, but my fingers are crossed. ;)
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Just my thoughts on this and I'm no expert but it seems to me that this would be a perfect arena for the mlc'r to manipulate even further.
I think this is a great place to be when you have 2 people who can be open to it either way it goes. But when dealing with those that have tunnel vision and are looking only to validate their actions I believe that this type of therapy would be no more productive than conventional marriage counseling.
Just my though that there will be no progress while op is in the picture. I believe that is the first step. A therapist who can help them break that addiction first. Then intense therapy for the mlc without interference from spouse or op and then possibly at that point if they have been able to have progress through mlc, that this type of therapy could be beneficial.
I could be wrong, I'm no expert. Just my thoughts.
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Just my thoughts on this and I'm no expert but it seems to me that this would be a perfect arena for the mlc'r to manipulate even further.
I think this is a great place to be when you have 2 people who can be open to it either way it goes. But when dealing with those that have tunnel vision and are looking only to validate their actions I believe that this type of therapy would be no more productive than conventional marriage counseling.
Just my though that there will be no progress while op is in the picture. I believe that is the first step. A therapist who can help them break that addiction first. Then intense therapy for the mlc without interference from spouse or op and then possibly at that point if they have been able to have progress through mlc, that this type of therapy could be beneficial.
I could be wrong, I'm no expert. Just my thoughts.
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None of us are experts in this mlc "mental crisis" but...I agree with you!
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the part of the article talking about how the cheater felt so lifeless in the dried up marriage and ow made him feel alive as a man again... that struck me. With the MLCer they would probably claim this too, except they're the ones dried up, not the marriage, and they are just placing blame on the spouse. I really don't know whether they would be open to recognizing that the problem is internal rather than external.
In the article especially, it seems to imply that the problems in the marriage were actually there, and it's just a matter of how the spouse(s) react to them... I think it's safe to say that while no marriage is perfect, in MLC that is probably not the case?
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I actually had heard about this and wondered whether it would have been a good idea before our D. But, in reviewing this writeup on this, I have to say, I am not certain this would be a workable solution for couples where one is MLC. The main reason being:
•One partner has made an final, irrevocable decision to divorce and only wants counseling to encourage the other spouse accept that decision.
Since in most MLC cases especially those with an alienator active and on the scene, I don't think you would get very many results other than a faster run to the D. From what I have observed, many of the MLCrs are happy just plugging along and won't do much in the way of actively working towards the D, but this would get them thinking more about that option. IMO.
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This guy was REALLY annoying to me. I checked it out from a professional perspective and I'm not sold on the concept. I'm very wary of dogmatic claims made by people trying to sell things, and overall I'm not so sure he's doing anything that any other Marriage and Family therapist isn't already doing but rather just putting a label on it and repackaging it. No two parties go into Marriage Therapy with the same agenda and usually by the time couples get to the point of going to counseling one already has one foot out the door anyway. Truth of the matter is that people just don't go until something is majorly wrong, and by that point it's already too late in many cases. My opinion may change with further knowledge, but at this point I'm just not seeing anything new here.
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Thundarr: Are you familiar with Bill Doherty and his work?
I do not think Discernment Conseling would be something that would work for MLC situations, but I am curious as to how it handles the situation when a couple goes through 5 sessions and the Leaning Out spouse heads for divorce and the Leaning In spouse is still In--and a Stander doesn't so much Leans as stays IN with all the exits closed off. Basically, is it a requirement from the start that both be open to either outcome? One criteria that excludes is if the one partner has made an final, irrevocable decision to divorce and only wants counseling to encourage the other spouse accept that decision. To me this means they Leaning Out partner needs to be somewhat ambivalent regarding divorce--even if only slightly. So is it also a requirement that the Leaning In partner be ambivalent about Leaning In or at least willing to move on to a collaborative divorce—would they deny DC to a Stander if he or she said they were a Stander?
Other questions—some different variations on the same idea:
How will a DC therapist work with a Stander after DC?
What do you do if after DC is complete, a couple are still not in agreement regarding divorce, staying together, or at least putting divorce on the shelf for a while in order to try marriage counseling?
How does DC work with your stance against neutrality?
You have said that DC can be used even when there is an ongoing affair. Can you explain this further? Does the type of affair make a difference—how do you handle the situation when it is an emotionally-bonded type of affair (they think they are soul mates)?
I realize that DC is not possible if one spouse refuses to attend or continue; what services do you offer the Leaning In spouse who wants to come alone?
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I'm also curious about Discernment Counseling for cases that may be mildly MLC or for Low Energy Wallowers who remain at home...often for years. I don't think DC is something that fixes, but I do wonder how a DC therapist would handle these situations.
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Like Thundarr also don't see anything that differs from other marital therapists. Just a new label to the same old thing.
"• make a good decision about whether to move towards divorce, or make one last try to restore the marriage to health
WHAT DOES DISCERNMENT COUNSELING INVOLVE?
The discernment counselor helps couples choose among three options: moving towards divorce, carving out a period of time to for an all-out effort to preserve the marriage, or agreeing to decide later."
What is new or different in this? Nothing. And one does not even need a therapist to chose one of those three options.
and since
"Discernment counseling is NOT suitable when:
• One partner is coercing the other to participate via threats of any kind
• One partner has made an final, irrevocable decision to divorce and only wants counseling to encourage the other spouse accept that decision
• There is a danger of domestic violence
• There is an Order of Protection from a Court"
It would never work with a MLCer/on a MLC situation.
What were they going to do with a stander? The options they offer are clear and it is also clear when DC does not work. The stander would not have the spouse wanting to try again or to wait and the stander would have a spouse that had irrevocably decided to divorce.
Their therapy does not seem appropriated for a MLCer of for a LBS/stander.
If you ask me DC is just a new way of selling couples therapy.
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WHAT DOES DISCERNMENT COUNSELING INVOLVE?
The discernment counselor helps couples choose among three options: moving towards divorce, carving out a period of time to for an all-out effort to preserve the marriage, or agreeing to decide later."
What is new or different in this? Nothing. And one does not even need a therapist to chose one of those three options.
Actually it is a huge difference because it is not marriage counseling--which is part of the point. Counseling is about problem-solving and that is specifically not meant to be part of DC. Some people attend marriage counseling so they can check it off the list that they tried it--when, of course, they weren't really trying. Well, that is not an option with DC--though people will still make the claim.
Of course one doesn't need a therapist, one is already Leaning Out and has basically chosen--if they do not go to DC the choice is pretty much done. DC can help clarify, but will it help them understand what divorce really is as well--that needs to be another question I ask.
What's new or different is that problem-solving is not the focus--so it is not marriage counseling and that the therapist sees each person separately. Some therapist will tell you that not only is that not allowed, but that it is unethical to do that and they will refuse to see each person alone. Without the partner in the room, each person is freer to open up and talk about things they would not otherwise--both leaning in and leaning out. There were things I wanted to talk about very much, but was not about to bring them up in Chuck's presence because they were either more emphasis about me Standing or they were actions I was considering about Standing--and I was not going to show Chuck my hand because that might damage the chance of the action working.
The big difference with DC is that Bill and his daughter are trying to make it more official which means that there will be trainings for therapists that are more uniform, and there will be a registry so people wanting a therapist who does DC can find them. Some therapists have been doing the basics--separate sessions, but have not had a uniform protocol. Bill and Elizabeth are now tracking results and keeping data so there will be more known about what works and what doesn't work.
I do not see DC specifically as something for Standers, but Bill Doherty himself is someone that I think would support Standers--given his history, especially his stance against therapist neutrality. He is one of the top leaders in his field and personally he fits what I do perhaps more than any other--even Jed Diamond. So I want to know how he recommends for dealing with Standers and what a DC therapist should do when one of the partners they are seeing chooses to Stand--since certainly that will happen and perhaps it will happen more with DC therapists than other marriage counselors.
DC might have been a valid option for Chuck and me when we went in 2007. I insisted he see each of us separately once before seeing us together. For me, it was so I could screen/interview him. I think the end result choice would have been to do nothing since by then Chuck was not wanting a divorce, but was still in the middle of MLC, so not willing to do the work or end the affair.
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Thanks for the explanation/clarification, RCR. For me it still be pretty much the same thing as the other types of couples therapy. It is aimed at marriage and divorce divorce professionals, it deal with a marital issue, divorce is a marital issue, so I really do not see how it is not about marriage therapy.
And isn't therapy about solving problems? At least that is what I call therapy. I know that some therapy is more about looking inside, how one feels towards a situation, etc. but for me therapy has to have a practical use.
DC does not seem to fit for a stander: WHO IS DISCERNMENT COUNSELING FOR? it’s designed mostly for couples where one partner is leaning out of the marriage and the other wants to stay together and fix the problems. In discernment counseling you can expect to:
• gain clarity and confidence about what steps to take next with your marriage
• develop a deeper understanding of what has happened to your marriage
• look at “three sides” of your problems: yours, your spouse’s, and that of an objective third party
• make a good decision about whether to move towards divorce, or make one last try to restore the marriage to health
It is not possible to do any of those things with a MLCer and since it involves decide to divorce or to make a last try to restore the marriage health, I cannot see how it would be for a stander. They may not be able to deal with a stander because the stander wants the marriage, may not want to divorce, but does not have a partner to give it a last try.
Plus. DC seems much more aimed at divorce and preparing people for divorce than marriage and helping marriages.
But if they go to DC and have already made their mind up there is nothing to be done. In fact they do not take people who already have irrevocably decided to finish the marriage, do they? And people can go and like you said will still say they went and it did not work. Even because DC offers the possibility of decide to end the marriage. So, it will most likely have people who already decide to divorce going knowing that one of the options is to choose to divorce.
I get the see the two people separately and how that will allow for each to express itself better. But it will also allow for lies. Imagine a MLC and LBS going to separate sessions, the versions would be so different that, if I was DC therapist my advice may be, divorce. And quick, there is nothing to save. With non MLC couples it may work. Or it may not.
I think DCtherapist will deal less with standers. After all DC is not for couples who one parts has already decided irrevocably to divorce and will use therapy to convince the other spouse. A few MLCers, like your husband, may not be wanting a divorce. At least early on they may not, but most want a divorce and nothing can make them change their mind.
From all I've read in the site, it just looks like another way of making money out of couples. “Outcomes are framed in terms of three paths: continue with marriage as it has been, separation/divorce, or a six month reconciliation period in couples therapy (and perhaps with other help) with divorce off the table—and then a decision about whether the marriage can be made healthy for “ , Most people will divorce or go to marriage therapy, and the DC therapist has already made their money. Same if the couple stays together.