Midlife Crisis: Support for Left Behind Spouses
Archives => Archived Topics => Topic started by: Albatross on August 12, 2014, 05:42:36 AM
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1. Well being
Healthy Real Love makes us want for the well being of loved ones.
Toxic False love wants primarily for our own well being, wants and desires to be all important, and can sacrifice the supposed loved one for self.
2. Self Love
Healthy Real Love makes us balance our healthy self love with our love of others.
Toxic False love wants others to sacrifice and diminish their self love for our benefit.
3. Strength
Healthy Real Love causes us to want our loved ones to be strong & powerful in their own lives.
Toxic False love makes us act to diminish our loved ones’ strength so we can dominate and control them and, thereby, feel more false safety.
4. Growth
Healthy Real Love promotes the growth, development, education, and advancement of those we love.
Toxic False love works to block & hamper growth out of fear of being surpassed, outdone, and abandoned.
5. Aloneness
Healthy Real Love allows & promotes alone time, understanding it’s healthful benefits.
Toxic False love fears being alone and allowing a supposed loved one to be alone or off to himself or herself.
6. Sex
Healthy Real Love mixes both self love & other love into shared eroticism making it democratic, varied, open to exploration of new & different intimacy, & always guided by caring.
Toxic False love is absent of sufficient love expression &, thus, often is sexually demanding, obsessive, or dominated by sameness &/or fearfulness.
7. Power
Healthy Real Love pushes us to share power equally, work to synthesize & compromise, operate with free speech, independent action, alternating leadership, negotiation, & interpersonal democracy.
Toxic False love pushes us toward either dictatorial dominance, or an abdication of selfhood through fearful surrender.
8. Difference
Healthy Real Love promotes & delights in the loved one’s differences, ways of being unique, dissimilar viewpoints, divergent approaches, varying ways by valuing the enrichments they bring to relationships.
Toxic False love works to suppress & eliminate differences and bring about the false safety of sameness.
9. Dependency
Healthy Real Love helps work for the loved one’s self dependency, one’s own self dependency while also promoting agreed upon, chosen, mutually supportive interdependency.
Toxic False love wants the supposed loved one to be dependent on the false lover, or wants the relationship to be mutually co-dependent.
10. Jealousy
Healthy Real Love is not jealous, not even a little bit, because love does not spawn jealousy, possessiveness, or irrational suspiciousness.
Toxic False love is jealous because it is grounded in inadequate self love & the fearful insecurity that we can not hold the love of another by our own personal worthiness.
11. Friends & Family
Healthy Real Love causes us to attempt to love, like, or at least be appropriately & be consistently accepting of those the loved one loves & likes (including pets, ex-spouses, dysfunctional relatives, etc.) but not to the point of supporting destructiveness.
Toxic False love causes us to work toward excluding, limiting contact with, & markedly avoiding the loved one’s interaction with their ‘others’.
12. Trust
Healthy Real Love makes us take the ‘gamble’ of trust in our love and the loved one’s love &, therefore, causes us to willfully become ‘vulnerable’ to them, their words, and actions. This is done to affirm the loved one and make the relationship function in workable ways.
Toxic False love makes us mistrust, spy, be suspicious, hinder the freedom, doubt, & distrust the supposed loved one which eventually destroys the love relationship.
13. Self Disclosure
Healthy Real Love helps us accept & become self disclosing of (past, present, & future) thoughts, feelings, actions, victories & defeats, strengths & flaws, & all else.
Toxic False love works to hide our less pleasant aspects, be secretive, present false images, & fears exposure.
14. Priorities
Healthy Real Love puts love first of all values.
Toxic False love puts many things above the importance of love.
15. Healing
Healthy Real Love causes us to work for the health of our loved ones.
Toxic False love often works toward illness, or avoids the promotion of healthful living.
16. Affirmation
Healthy Real Love is affirming in word and action. Compliments of being & doing, praise, brags, showing affirmative support, cheering for the loved one, and more demonstrations are common. It also makes us look for, appreciate & affirm the qualities of our loved ones.
Toxic False love praises & compliments for personal advantage or gain. It often also dis-affirms with criticism, put downs, devaluing & debasement.
17. Tolerance
Healthy Real Love causes us to tolerate the less pleasant aspects of those who are loved unless those aspects are clearly destructive.
Toxic False love tolerates little demanding its own way, or tolerates destructively to weaken the supposed loved one’s strength.
18. Reception
Healthy Real Love makes us highly receptive to our loved one’s likes, needs, wants, ways, and especially expressions of love.
Toxic False love makes us neglectful, avoidant, critical, & undervaluing of our loved one’s efforts to love us.
19. Gifting
Healthy Real Love helps us frequently and openly enjoy gifting our loved ones with what they want both with object and experience gifts.
Toxic False love helps us give gifts we want, gifts designed to manipulate, impress, result in return gifting from the loved one, or to give few or no gifts at all, and to gift with poor and negative attitudes.
20. Joy
Healthy Real Love helps us take joy in those we love, take joy in their joy, work to enjoy what they enjoy, share what we enjoy, & create mutual joy.
Toxic False love works to disregard or discount the joy of the supposed loved ones, and try to manipulate them to only enjoy what we enjoy.
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Very interesting that you should post this now Albatross . I am reading a book called Authentic Love which is along the same lines . It has made me realize even more that a lot of H's ways of withdrawing and holding back were done out of fear because he had never learned to trust love .
Thanks
Callan
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Yes Albatross IMHO people who love and care for you support you emotionally
Not just you supporting them - sharing vulnerabilities
SHARING
It's not information gathering session so you can figure out what someone else's weaknesses are.
THEN try to destroy them due to them. YOU NURTURE AND SUPPORT and try to help REMOVE FEAR not INSTILL IT.
Not criticizing every single thing they do so someone has some kind of perfect mirror opposite gender to identify with.
DROP CONTROL and set each other free to be the people we can be.
Even with this kind of freedom the core person does NOT change if they were always self centered and selfish.
Once one consistently thinks only of them selves in life It is very difficult if not impossible for them to change because they see absolutely nothing wrong with how they think.
A Scenario comes to mind. I was making egg salad sandwiches for church one morning. The ex (then the H) comes in the kitchen and comments
"Well you've got enough sandwiches there to feed the village" >:(
And I replied
" And when it's someone else's turn to make sandwiches they feed me" :)
JEALOUSY is a deal breaker in a relationship.
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What could he have said ??
"Hey look at all these great sandwiches you made..maybe I'll go to church today!"
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I was analyzed both of us before she hit the crisis and both of us when she hit the crisis and I found very interesting results from that. At beginning of our relationship there was no any maladaptive points from this list neither she does so far I remember. How time pass she start to getting them a lot of them and I get some of them, but nothing severe. That means unhealthiness of one partner leads to unhealthiness of other one. It is contagious.
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Good read Albatross.
For me i have come to this simple conclusion............
True love is actually compassion, it’s that part of ourself that reaches out to help a stray dog or an injured bird without any expectation to be loved in return. It’s that part of us that quietly cries for another in their time of suffering.
Love is not a feeling but rather an act, a choice to extend patience and kindness. It does not seek its own and does not keep record. I think maybe that’s why humans have such a deep connection to babies and animals because they remind us of the kind of love we are capable of expressing. It reminds us of the best part of our-self.
take care
moment
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I'll probably get 2 x 4rd for this but IMHO women may have a better understanding of what unconditional love is having given birth.
I NOT saying no one else including women with no children or same gender couples have no idea. Or possibly even men..
IMHO I do feel men a have a really hard time understanding the concept. Conditions follow in regards to them showing love or appreciation. I feel they put a lot more emphasis on sex than is necessary.
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I'll probably get 2 x 4rd for this but IMHO women may have a better understanding of what unconditional love is having given birth.
I NOT saying no one else including women with no children or same gender couples have no idea. Or possibly even men..
IMHO I do feel men a have a really hard time understanding the concept. Conditions follow in regards to them showing love or appreciation. I feel they put a lot more emphasis on sex than is necessary.
Sexes doe not matter at all. Yes, we have different parenting in majority cases man and woman. We parent daughter and son equally. Yes, man and woman have different brain, but not significantly different. So, I believe You are wrong. Some people can love some can't. It is not black and white, means a lot in between those exclusions. And love is very complex.
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Thank you for posting that. I couldn't believe how many of those toxic false love's my h has exhibited throughout our marriage. Of, course I share a few of them, but he takes a good part of that list. And he didn't exhibit those with just me, but our children, too.
Even though my h is probably never coming back, I hope he learns to love himself and someday be able to have healthy love with someone.
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That means unhealthiness of one partner leads to unhealthiness of other one. It is contagious.
I can see how this could be. I would struggle at times to not taken my H's unhealthiness :o
I couldn't believe how many of those toxic false love's my h has exhibited throughout our marriage. Of, course I share a few of them, but he takes a good part of that list.
My H definitely has the Toxic False Love down ??? It has been there all along and that it is the main reason that I do not see a future with my H - he has been this way long before BD just not as in your face with it. MLC has brought it the surface.
Albatross- Glad to see you posting again ;)
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I understand what healthy real love is and I feel I can give it.
I can't seem to get it!!
I keep picking @$$holes to give it to and they do not appreciate it.
Doesn't matter if one person has a healthy self esteem or self worth if they pick a judgmental, critical, controlling @$$hole you cannot convince them of anything.
They have to have CONSTANT praise, admiration, and FEED.
It eventually turned me into such an enabler- it was the only way I could stand to be around him. It was mentally, physically, and spiritually exhausting.
If you spend time with someone who loves you I would think it would soothe and energize you.
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False Forms of Love: Shadow Side Attachments
To explain all this let’s look at one of Dr. Carl Jung’s postulates. He was the most famous pupil of Dr. Sigmund Freud and he put forth the concept of the shadow side personality. According to Jung’s thinking our shadow side can be that part of our personality which is the opposite of our more socially acceptable self and our more usual, overt way of presenting our self. The shadow side self can yearn to break free from having to be ‘good’, proper, constrained, and ‘fitting in’. In the depths of many people the shadow side secretly desires not to live up to anyone else’s expectations, not to conform to standards or live by society’s rules. The shadow side is repressed but it wishes to break free of that repression, to go wild, to try everything forbidden and to live a ‘who cares what anybody thinks or says’ existence. The freedom to have low standards of conduct, run on impulse and not have to repress or suppress the usually unacceptable can be powerfully attractive. Sometimes the shadow side self breaks out and takes over.
The conformist, repressed, good girl meets someone who represents all her repressed desires and characteristics, and it is ‘fascination at first sight’. The ‘live by the rules’, always a nice guy meets someone who helps him bring out his selfish, lust driven, secretly barbarian inner self, and off he goes to a life of wild abandon. Miss (seemingly) ‘prim and proper’ can only indulge her masochistic side after finding just the right dominating and sufficiently sadistic lover. Mr. ‘Upstanding Citizen’ can only let out his ‘down and dirty’, hidden self after he hooks up with a blatantly naughty and nasty femme fatale.
Sometimes things work the other way around. The ‘outlaw’ rebel becomes intensely attracted to the ‘good to everybody’ nurse. The outcast, loner prostitute falls for the popular and proper priest. The ‘bad boy’ converts himself into acting good so he can be with the ‘good girl’. These examples and similar others happen less often but they do happen. Which ever way it emerges a shadow side attraction offers a reversal of the usual, and an overt exploration of what was previously covert and perhaps even was entirely out of conscious awareness.
When we get involved in a shadow side romance we give our self the chance to travel into our own unexplored regions. Shadow side, false love really may be about learning to discover, to know and to love the rest of one’s self. By way of the intimacies of romance and lust we can tap into our own worst, weirdest and sometimes most wonderful traits, tendencies and talents. Shadow side, false love attachments are frequently filled with uninhibited actions, some of which are great fun, and occasionally quite creative, as well as frequently awful. They also often are filled with episodes of spontaneous, emotional combustion and near total abandonment of restraints. Therefore, shadow side lovers feel more free to explore and experiment with many more ways of being themselves than is true for the usual common and correct couple. Shadow side, false love is frequently exciting, adventurous and sometimes quite dangerous.
Sometimes a person feels drawn to a shadow side lover only to spend a brief time ‘visiting’ in that dark and difficult world. Then they return to their regular life, often more worldly-wise, stronger and more mature. At other times a person is caught up in shadow side, false love and takes up life-long residence in a sort of slavery to the opposite of what they knew or how they behaved before. When that happens they usually seem to go from one shadow side lover to the next in an endless string.
The best outcomes usually occur when a person synthesizes their two opposing sides and creates an integration of both, keeping the best and jettisoning the rest. Then they find a lover or spouse compatible with their new, integrated self. The results of this kind of synthesis and integration sometimes are spectacular. Of particular help in achieving integrated synthesis is a form of psychotherapy popular in Europe and South America called Psychosynthesis. It uses specialized techniques for bringing opposing parts of the self into healthy integration and it works well with Dr. Carl Jung’s conceptualizations and form of psychotherapy.
Once in a while shadow side, false love gives rise to healthy, real, lasting love with a shadow side lover but most think this is extremely rare. More often shadow side, false love can be a prerequisite to a later lover who is more compatible for growing a new lasting love.
One appeal of shadow side romance has to do with relaxing inhibitions. Tiffany said, “It was always easier to go naked and do crazy things when I was around Smittey because he was scum. I could act like a crazy b!tc# around him because I knew he was worse than me and if I lost him, so what. If he stayed around I could abuse him as much as I wanted. It was great! Then I got tired of all that, and went into therapy and learned to love myself. Then I had to find somebody really fine because I learned I was worthy of real love. I’m not so carefree as I was, but my life is way better now.”
“I can’t understand why my wife picked such a loser to have an affair with” or, “My husband’s choice in lovers is so low class. I just don’t get what he sees in those women” and “It’s so embarrassing to discover my lover wants those trashy freaks more often than he wants me.” The people who say these sort of things don’t understand that dealing with difference and deviance, without having to live up to higher standards, is the attraction. The wayward mate can find out what their bad side is and get, if not real love, acceptance and participation. Living up to higher standards is not required and that is such a freedom for many, especially heavily repressed individuals.
The shadow side dynamic is a false love because it is not lasting and it does not provide several of the major functions of healthy, real love. Nurturing love, protective love and healing love usually are not much a part of shadow side love involvements and, therefore, shadow side attempts at love usually come to an end with a fair amount of agony. The good news is that quite often the agony is not very long lasting because the love was false.
One of the benefits of exploring your own shadow side (often with the help of a knowledgeable, love-oriented therapist) is you may come to acknowledge and integrate deep parts of yourself and consequently may be able to avoid the entanglements and problems that can come from having a shadow side, false love experience with another.
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Thank you Albatross. The explanation was very straight forward and I was able to understand it. I always learn so much from your posts.
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“Suffering threatens to make life meaningless. That is its greatest danger, not the pain it inflicts. It is up to each of us to restore meaning. Doctors cannot do it for us with their medicine; friends cannot do it for us with their solace and comfort. You are healed when you say to yourself, “I matter, I belong, I am worthy, I am safe, I can express myself, and I am loved.”……………………..
Inner healing involves moving from darkness to light. “Light” is a word that has different meanings yet is generally understood as love and understanding. Love nurtures the emotional body; understanding fills the void created by pain……………………………
Light has the power to fill the void afflicted by darkness. Healing yourself comes in two stages – releasing the energy of suffering, then replacing it with the soul’s energy. It is a gentle process, very much like holding a thread as it leads you from step to step. What begins as the merest hint of a new strength will grow. Your true self is always available to meet any challenge, find any answer and show you the way out of a dilemma……………………………..
If you take time to listen to the voice of the soul – where the ego is silent- you will be astonished at the power you have at your command, however long it has been overlooked. No other discovery in life is as joyful as regaining your true self. Falling in love is the only comparable event, yet it is temporary and depends on another person, the beloved. Your true self is forever and depends upon no one but yourself. When they say that suffering ennobles a person this means that with the impetus of crisis, old habits and perceptions are uprooted. The unknown makes itself felt, and if you open yourself to it, the meaning of the soul is reveals itself as a truth that you never anticipated before the crisis began. In this way every suffering is seen to contain a hidden spiritual message.” ~ Deepak Chopra
May we all arrive to our true self – therein lies peace and joy and acceptance that we will never truly understand why our W/H did what they did; essentially acceptance for the uncertainties.
Moment
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Thank you Albatross for your continued research into all aspects of personal development, psychology and MLC.
Reading this with interest..
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False Forms of Love: Shadow Side Attachments
To explain all this let’s look at one of Dr. Carl Jung’s postulates. He was the most famous pupil of Dr. Sigmund Freud and he put forth the concept of the shadow side personality. According to Jung’s thinking our shadow side can be that part of our personality which is the opposite of our more socially acceptable self and our more usual, overt way of presenting our self. The shadow side self can yearn to break free from having to be ‘good’, proper, constrained, and ‘fitting in’. In the depths of many people the shadow side secretly desires not to live up to anyone else’s expectations, not to conform to standards or live by society’s rules. The shadow side is repressed but it wishes to break free of that repression, to go wild, to try everything forbidden and to live a ‘who cares what anybody thinks or says’ existence. The freedom to have low standards of conduct, run on impulse and not have to repress or suppress the usually unacceptable can be powerfully attractive. Sometimes the shadow side self breaks out and takes over.
The conformist, repressed, good girl meets someone who represents all her repressed desires and characteristics, and it is ‘fascination at first sight’. The ‘live by the rules’, always a nice guy meets someone who helps him bring out his selfish, lust driven, secretly barbarian inner self, and off he goes to a life of wild abandon. Miss (seemingly) ‘prim and proper’ can only indulge her masochistic side after finding just the right dominating and sufficiently sadistic lover. Mr. ‘Upstanding Citizen’ can only let out his ‘down and dirty’, hidden self after he hooks up with a blatantly naughty and nasty femme fatale.
Sometimes things work the other way around. The ‘outlaw’ rebel becomes intensely attracted to the ‘good to everybody’ nurse. The outcast, loner prostitute falls for the popular and proper priest. The ‘bad boy’ converts himself into acting good so he can be with the ‘good girl’. These examples and similar others happen less often but they do happen. Which ever way it emerges a shadow side attraction offers a reversal of the usual, and an overt exploration of what was previously covert and perhaps even was entirely out of conscious awareness.
When we get involved in a shadow side romance we give our self the chance to travel into our own unexplored regions. Shadow side, false love really may be about learning to discover, to know and to love the rest of one’s self. By way of the intimacies of romance and lust we can tap into our own worst, weirdest and sometimes most wonderful traits, tendencies and talents. Shadow side, false love attachments are frequently filled with uninhibited actions, some of which are great fun, and occasionally quite creative, as well as frequently awful. They also often are filled with episodes of spontaneous, emotional combustion and near total abandonment of restraints. Therefore, shadow side lovers feel more free to explore and experiment with many more ways of being themselves than is true for the usual common and correct couple. Shadow side, false love is frequently exciting, adventurous and sometimes quite dangerous.
Sometimes a person feels drawn to a shadow side lover only to spend a brief time ‘visiting’ in that dark and difficult world. Then they return to their regular life, often more worldly-wise, stronger and more mature. At other times a person is caught up in shadow side, false love and takes up life-long residence in a sort of slavery to the opposite of what they knew or how they behaved before. When that happens they usually seem to go from one shadow side lover to the next in an endless string.
The best outcomes usually occur when a person synthesizes their two opposing sides and creates an integration of both, keeping the best and jettisoning the rest. Then they find a lover or spouse compatible with their new, integrated self. The results of this kind of synthesis and integration sometimes are spectacular. Of particular help in achieving integrated synthesis is a form of psychotherapy popular in Europe and South America called Psychosynthesis. It uses specialized techniques for bringing opposing parts of the self into healthy integration and it works well with Dr. Carl Jung’s conceptualizations and form of psychotherapy.
Once in a while shadow side, false love gives rise to healthy, real, lasting love with a shadow side lover but most think this is extremely rare. More often shadow side, false love can be a prerequisite to a later lover who is more compatible for growing a new lasting love.
One appeal of shadow side romance has to do with relaxing inhibitions. Tiffany said, “It was always easier to go naked and do crazy things when I was around Smittey because he was scum. I could act like a crazy b*tch around him because I knew he was worse than me and if I lost him, so what. If he stayed around I could abuse him as much as I wanted. It was great! Then I got tired of all that, and went into therapy and learned to love myself. Then I had to find somebody really fine because I learned I was worthy of real love. I’m not so carefree as I was, but my life is way better now.”
“I can’t understand why my wife picked such a loser to have an affair with” or, “My husband’s choice in lovers is so low class. I just don’t get what he sees in those women” and “It’s so embarrassing to discover my lover wants those trashy freaks more often than he wants me.” The people who say these sort of things don’t understand that dealing with difference and deviance, without having to live up to higher standards, is the attraction. The wayward mate can find out what their bad side is and get, if not real love, acceptance and participation. Living up to higher standards is not required and that is such a freedom for many, especially heavily repressed individuals.
The shadow side dynamic is a false love because it is not lasting and it does not provide several of the major functions of healthy, real love. Nurturing love, protective love and healing love usually are not much a part of shadow side love involvements and, therefore, shadow side attempts at love usually come to an end with a fair amount of agony. The good news is that quite often the agony is not very long lasting because the love was false.
One of the benefits of exploring your own shadow side (often with the help of a knowledgeable, love-oriented therapist) is you may come to acknowledge and integrate deep parts of yourself and consequently may be able to avoid the entanglements and problems that can come from having a shadow side, false love experience with another.
THis is so fascinating, Albatross, thank you for sharing. I caught a glimpse of my own shadow side last year when I turned 25 and was deciding whether to come back to my small town and settle down with X... but it never went beyond some fantasies of going wild. I soon saw that wasn't what I wanted at all. That it wasn't real.
Too bad X's encounter with the shadow went in the opposite direction!
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Big achievement is when one is aware of own shadow.
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Thanks Albatross!
I am always amazed at how I can read a thread like this and basically understand the concept - then I read it again at a later date and I totally 'get it'.
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Thanks Albatross!
I am always amazed at how I can read a thread like this and basically understand the concept - then I read it again at a later date and I totally 'get it'.
That is reason for Latin proverb: "Repetitio mater studiorum est". :) Or on English "Repetition is the mother of study".
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Albatross you do post some the the most thought provoking things. I guess I'm wondering about these things you post.
I guess the shadow side of someone would be the opposite of the way they have always behaved..correct? It's based in behavior and what they say and do.
So I guess I'll take me for an example. I speak my own truth. I feel I have integrity and self respect. Was or is or would be my shadow side lack of that? I always felt I had some of it. I guess I just wasn't sure how to go about getting it.
Technically I guess it happens for me through no contact. I have more respect for myself than to deal with him.
I try to stay with like minded positive people and try not to do anything I may regret.
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I don't know how I have missed this thread. Albatross, this is fascinating material. It helps me to understand more clearly why my xH ended up with who he chose. I understand my xH's Shadow more completely. I am concerned about myself, however, as I don't feel any repressed needs or wants or "Dark Side" to my nature. That can't be correct if we all have one. I am far from perfect, but I am concerned for my own growth that I don't see it.
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Hey init, albatross will correct me if I am way off here, but what you say about doing something you may regret is recognising that you have a shadow that is capable of doing/ saying something that is wrong, or perceived by society etc as being wrong.
I wouldn't say it is the opposite of who you are necessarily but of who you ALSO are but your conscious mind keeps it in check. I believe that every one of us has the capability to do what our mlcer has done, but we have overruled that shadow side we possess or brought it to life, recognised it and have not allowed it to rule.
Maybe I am talking rubbish, but that is my understanding.
Sd
X
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Attaching to this! Very interesting Albatross.
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I wouldn't say it is the opposite of who you are necessarily but of who you ALSO are but your conscious mind keeps it in check. I believe that every one of us has the capability to do what our mlcer has done, but we have overruled that shadow side we possess or brought it to life, recognised it and have not allowed it to rule.
Exactly, we are both worlds, shadow and light, we should embrace both of them. When One recognize own shadow is big achievement. Embracing both worlds giving lower aberration between them. People who goes to the extreme light possess same big shadow.
Being too good producing repressing self and building bigger shadow, combine that without expressing feelings lead to disaster.
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SOME WISE QUOTES ABOUT SHADOW
"If you bring forth what is within you, what you bring forth will save you. If you do not bring forth what is within you, what you do not bring forth will destroy you."
"The Shadow cannot be eliminated. It is the ever-present dark brother or sister. Whenever we fail to see where it stands, there is likely to be trouble afoot. For then it is certain to be standing behind us. The adequate question therefore never is: Have I a shadow problem? Have I a negative side? But rather: Where does it happen to be right now? When we cannot see it, it is time to beware! And it is helpful to remember Jung's formulation that a complex is not pathological per se. It becomes pathological only when we assume that we do not have it; because then IT HAS US!"
- Edward C. Whitmont -
Depth psychology has presented us with the undeniable wisdom that the enemy is constructed from denied aspects of the self. Therefore, the radical commandment "Love your enemy as yourself" points the way toward both self-knowledge and peace. We do, in fact, love or hate our enemies to the same degree that we love or hate ourselves. In the image of the enemy, we will find the mirror in which we may see our own face most clearly.
- Sam Keen -
Shadow work leads to a practice I refer to as the pursuit of the unhypocritical life, which some might call living with integrity.
- Jeremiah Abrahms -
To practice lightside/dark side thinking is to practice holding opposites, a subversive act in our either/or culture. For Jung, this act is a developmental step, the end of a naive all-good view or a cynical all-bad view, which results in a more nuanced perception of reality and a capacity to tolerate paradox and ambiguity. This, too, is one of the promises of shadow-work.
- Connie Zwieg, Ph.D. and Steve Wolf, Ph.D. -
The Shadow, of course never dies; we always cast a shadow. But how we relate to it, and it to us, depends on whether it is known. Once known, we have inevitably lost an innocence that can never be recovered. What replaces it is a knowledge of the complexity of our nature. Sometimes we are fortunate, and this knowledge elicits a kindness and tolerance in us for others — even, perhaps for ourselves.
- Deena Metzger -
The cave you fear to enter holds the treasure you seek.
- Joseph Campbell -
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thank you for sharing, Albatross! The post about the shadow side helped me understand H's current behaviours and his choice for OW.
I do have a question (maybe more haha) about your original post true love\toxic fake love. Before BD I had only seen H display 1 maybe 2 of the toxic love traits (I too showed 1 or 2) throughout our entire relationship. Now H is a typical vanisher, so I am not completely sure how many of the true love/toxic love traits he shows with OW. But if we appeared to have true love according to your post then can I still look at my situation and say that H is in MLC mode (hence why he started showing way more toxic love traits after BD) or did we have true love, but something changed and he did actually stop loving me? I mean when H and I do have contact I still feel the connection between us. Our contact is very rare, as H likes to avoid me (has even told me that he wants as little contact with me as possible despite having young children together) but when we do talk its like nothing has happened. Like we are still best friends and whole. I guess my real question is I am trying to understand the connection between the true love/toxic fake love post and MLC. (not hating on the post. It was very thought provoking and brought some clarity to my situation. At least the shadow article brought clarity. Just trying to understand.) Please enlighten me with your wisdom :)
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Great Albatross, thank you for posting.
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Well I guess I have to practice being more of a b!tc# then..it's a shame you cannot be kind or compassionate to some people You end up misunderstood.
And frankly I don't think I could have done what the ex did. Especially when it comes to destroying a family...however dysfuncional HE thought it was.
The FEAR they operate from is amazing. They create the very thing they fear the most- abandoment. You cannot feel sorry for them!
Just because the world didn't revolve around him. WAHHH WAHHH!! GROW UP!
I'm pretty sure he has NO IDEA who he has dealt with..and I could give a $h!te less. I wish things had worked out with him and the exow they deserved each other!
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I'll probably get 2 x 4rd for this but IMHO women may have a better understanding of what unconditional love is having given birth.
You are comparing apples to oranges here. Loving your children is unconditional; it doesn't matter how bad they screw up; they are still your children and you love them no matter what! I obviously have never given birth and I love both of my kids unconditionally, no matter what they do or fail to do!
As I have stated before, Marriage / LTR is CONDITIONAL! You love and care for the person SO LONG AS they meet or stay within certain conditions / promises of the marital contract:
- No cheating / remain monogamous
- Treated fairly and with kindness / compassion
- meeting each others needs
- etc.
Break or fail to do any of these, or any others not listed, and you risk breaking that love!
IMHO I do feel men a have a really hard time understanding the concept. Conditions follow in regards to them showing love or appreciation. I feel they put a lot more emphasis on sex than is necessary.
Well, what is a marriage anyway? What makes a marriage different than another very similar close relationship? It's primarily sex / physical intimacy! Yes, there are emotional and other needs to be met, but let's be honest, in marriage you expect the sexual relationship to be exclusive & monogamous and frequent enough to meet those needs. You can have a very close male friend that you use as an "emotional tampon" to meet those needs but not be having sex with him! This is why you see women leaning on that beta guy that's in the "friend zone" for all her emotional support, but she gives sex to the alpha "@$$hole" that makes her tingle! In short, marriage places exclusive sex in the relationship in addition to the emotional needs!
Generally speaking, "sexless" marriages is a deal breakers for all but few men. Unlike the typical female where sex is the outgrowth of the emotional connection & bond that leads to the physical bond, men get a majority of the emotional connection through physical intimacy; it is during sex that our primary pair bonding chemical , Vasopressin, is released which is the primary male bonding chemical!
http://www.darionardi.com/BulletinArt9.html
Vasopressin is made in the brain. Both men and women make it. However, the male hormone testosterone synergizes with vasopressin – the two greatly enhance each other. A woman and man might have equal levels of vasopressin but the man experiences stronger effects. Physically, vasopressin causes water retention and high blood pressure; high levels may increase forehead size. Personality wise, vasopressin influences male social and sexual behavior, public communication, and paternal behavior. In animals (mammals), it promotes aggression, territorial competition and dominance with other males. It bonds males to mates and children. For men, it also promotes partner recognition, sexual arousal, courtship behavior, monogamy, pair bonding and mate guarding. Vasopressin also improves cognitive ability by enhancing memory. It allows one to feel separate, with dampened emotional responses and more “sensible” or “reasonable” behavior. Depressed people also have higher vasopressin.
Vasotocin is a variation of vasopressin found in fish, birds and frogs. It promotes vocalization, singing, mating calls and territorial behavior. It causes male animals to respond to the sight of attractive females. It is found in the human visual system (pineal gland), and male human bonding tends to be more visual. This might explain why adolescent boys of all types are often preoccupied with images of beautiful potential mates!
Interesting little point about the visual aspect of male human bonding, heh? This is why if you do any drastic physical changes (new short haircut, weight gain or too much weight loss, etc) can affect your man's attractiveness and appeal towards you depending on what he finds visually appealing! We are initially attracted to you based on our physical assessment of you and whether or not we want to have sex with you! Generally speaking, if we are not physically attracted to you, we have no desire to explore a romantic relationship with you! I know it sounds piggish, but that's just how men are biologically driven!
Vasopressin is released during sex. So, in short, no or limited sex, then the less vasopressin we have in our system. The less vasopressin, the less our pair bond is to you! Sexless marriage = no bond with you!!!
So yea, we do put a lot of emphasis on sex if you want us to stick around and maintain a lasting bond with you!
Call me a pig but at least I am honest! ;)
DO
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Generally speaking, "sexless" marriages is a deal breakers for all but few men. Unlike the typical female where sex is the outgrowth of the emotional connection & bond that leads to the physical bond, men get a majority of the emotional connection through physical intimacy; it is during sex that our primary pair bonding chemical , Vasopressin, is released which is the primary male bonding chemical!
Vasopressin is released during sex. So, in short, no or limited sex, then the less vasopressin we have in our system. The less vasopressin, the less our pair bond is to you! Sexless marriage = no bond with you!!!
D.O my H will be undergoing a radical prostatectomy in 4 weeks. Chances are he will be impotent for quite a while if not for life. What will "bond" us together through the reconnecting stage we are going through now, not to mention the rebuilding stage we face in the future? Are you suggesting it is hopeless for us?
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DO
;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D
Thanks for the information about the mans chemical brain function and at least you are HONEST!
For me marriage has graduated to a PARTNERSHIP not OWNERSHIP. Which involves compromise, negotiation, and being open to someone else's thoughts and needs is a must.
COMMUNICATION is KEY! Helping the other person life be easier not harder.
Sex is more apt to exist if both partners feel appreciated and valued in some way.
And if there is low self esteem or self respect and one needs their ego fed every second nothing the other can do will change that.
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Generally speaking, "sexless" marriages is a deal breakers for all but few men. Unlike the typical female where sex is the outgrowth of the emotional connection & bond that leads to the physical bond, men get a majority of the emotional connection through physical intimacy; it is during sex that our primary pair bonding chemical , Vasopressin, is released which is the primary male bonding chemical!
Vasopressin is released during sex. So, in short, no or limited sex, then the less vasopressin we have in our system. The less vasopressin, the less our pair bond is to you! Sexless marriage = no bond with you!!!
D.O my H will be undergoing a radical prostatectomy in 4 weeks. Chances are he will be impotent for quite a while if not for life. What will "bond" us together through the reconnecting stage we are going through now, not to mention the rebuilding stage we face in the future? Are you suggesting it is hopeless for us?
SF,
I dont know what to tell you. I was simply providing data and how men generally work. Not all men are the same, thats why I say generally. Couples do survive through medical issues such as ED, impotency, etc. I dont know how because I have never crossed that bridge and hope I never have to!
Bottom line is sex is important to men and it is a large part of our bond to our wife/girlfriends/SO. When it is withheld or witdrawn, we withdraw emotionaly from you and the longer it is withheld, the weaker our bond gets and the further we withdraw a grow resentment!
Bear in mind, I'm talking about a marriage where no medical issues are a problem and they are both healthy!
DO
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In it,
I used to whole heartedly agree with your point of view but for two years I've been reading about attraction and the literature seems pretty obvious.
http://ubc-emotionlab.ca/wp-content/files_mf/tracybeall2011emotion.pdf
Given that every man or woman is unique and speaking in broad generalities is dangerous, nevertheless, I'm wading into those troubled waters.
As in the study link, women aren't attracted to the nice guy, the good communicator, or a relationship (yawn)built on equality and mutual appreciation. They say they are, but that isn't how they are hard wired and that conflict of what a woman intellectually wants and what she emotionally craves creates a classic yin and yang within her. Good sex and good relationships are those that can successfully float between those two places.
OBO, I would also add that personal experiences such as foo, abuse,etc can greatly drive individual needs.
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DO
;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D
Thanks for the information about the mans chemical brain function and at least you are HONEST!
For me marriage has graduated to a PARTNERSHIP not OWNERSHIP. Which involves compromise, negotiation, and being open to someone else's thoughts and needs is a must.
COMMUNICATION is KEY! Helping the other person life be easier not harder.
Sex is more apt to exist if both partners feel appreciated and valued in some way.
And if there is low self esteem or self respect and one needs their ego fed every second nothing the other can do will change that.
Init,
I do agree with you and specifically the bold points. If you communicate your needs, accept your partners needs and value each other, then yes, there should be no issues. Otherwise, its disaster. Thats why those needs need to be stated as soon as the relationship goes serioys and long term. If my LL is QT and PT with a high sex drive, she needs to know that. Likewise, if she is QT and WOA with a low to medium sex drive, I need to know that! We then decide if we are willing to adapt to meet each others needs or not!
Elray,
I agree with you on all points including the foo issues! Thanks for being the "guinea pig" and posting the study; that topic was bound to come out eventually! Bottom line, what they say they want / need (beta provider) differs from what they actually desire and turns them on (alpha bad boy)!
We have to be both effectively!
Nice guys finish last: No More Mr. Nice Guy!!
DO
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Well I don't think I'm too far off if I say the same thing.
Guys love that sultry sexy b!tc# who could give a $h!te less..they run into someone honest and open? And they run from them like their hair is on fire.
The b!tc#er and colder I am the more of a challenge I present..it's exhausting and stupid.
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Well I don't think I'm too far off if I say the same thing.
Guys love that sultry sexy b*tch who could give a $hit less..they run into someone honest and open? And they run from them like their hair is on fire.
The b*tcher and colder I am the more of a challenge I present..it's exhausting and stupid.
In It,
It's hard to say; without knowing where you meet them, the conditions, demographics, etc it's kind of hard to tell!
Me personally; I wouldn't stick around! If I approached a woman in a friendly manner and got a "don't give a f**k" attitude and general b*tch personality, I would just walk away! My analysis would be either, she generally doesn't want to be approached and isn't interested, or she thinks her "sh*t don't stink" and has pedestalized herself! Either way, not worth my effort! I don't mind a woman with some independence, can take care of herself and has good self-esteem & worth, but she needs to be down to earth, pleasant, open & honest!
The bold text up there kind of hits the nail on the head though.....you present a challenge! I could be off, but my best guess is either, 1) the guy is a PUA and you present the challenge and opportunity for him to chase & dominate you, or, 2) the guy is actually attracted to and wants a dominant woman, which in my opinion, raises a serious red flag (mommy & foo issues)!
As always, just my opinion! But I haven't met a guy yet that truly wants a b*tchy domineering woman as a partner. Those that do are either players looking for a challenge for that next notch in their gun or a total weak-willed beta that you will get bored with easy!
DO
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Well the pickins are pretty slim here.. and I don't put myself above anybody else.
I'm NOT interested in games and chasing somebody or them chasing me! I'll probably remain single after I wade my way through this crap and that's fine with me.
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Are your palms sweaty, is your heart racing and is your voice caught within your chest??
-It isn't love, it's LIKE.
You can't keep your eyes or hands off of them, am I right??
-It isn't love, it's LUST.
Are you proud, and eager to show them off??
-It isn't love, it's LUCK.
Do you want them because you know they're there??
-It isn't love, it's LONELINESS.
Are you there because it's what everyone wants??
-It isn't love, it's LOYALTY.
Are you there because they kissed you, or held your hand??
-It isn't love, it's LOW CONFIDENCE.
Do you stay for their confessions of love, because you\don't want to
Hurt them??
-It isn't love, it's PITY.
Do you belong to them because their sight makes your heart skip a beat??
-It isn't love, it's INFATUATION.
Do you pardon their faults because you care about them??
-It isn't love, it's FRIENDSHIP.
Do you tell them every day they are the only one you think of??
-It isn't love, it's a LIE.
Are you willing to give all of your favorite things for their sake??
-It isn't love, it's CHARITY.
Does your heart ache and break when they're sad??
-Then it's LOVE.
Do you cry for their pain, even when they're strong??
-Then it's LOVE.
Do their eyes see your true heart, and touch your soul so deeply it hurts??
-Then it's LOVE.
Do you stay because a blinding, incomprehensible mix of pain and relation pulls you close and holds you there??
-Then it's LOVE.
Do you accept their faults because they're a part of who they are??
-Then it's LOVE.
Are you attracted to others, but stay with them faithfully without regret??
-Then it's LOVE.
Would you give them your heart, your life, your death??
-Then it's LOVE.
Now, if love is painful, and tortures us so, why do we love? Why is it all
we search for in life? This pain, this agony? Why is it all we long for?
This torture, this powerful death of self? Why? The answer is so simple
cause it's...LOVE. It is such an addictive thing that even people who
Are not having it wish to experience it and share it with others as well.
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I don't know..I can agree with most of it except the death part. If it's in reference to the marriage vows " in death do us part" possibly.
But coming close enough to death by the ex's hand..nope. I've enough of peoples abuse.
I believe if you do not love yourself first you may be incapable of loving anyone. Love for me currently doesn't equal pain.
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There are many types of love, I found the following two definitions/differenciations interesting:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Triangular_theory_of_love
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Four_Loves
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In it,
The only people I can truly say I would give up my life for would be my kids, grandkids, great grandkids, my sisters and my brothers. I guess only blood relationships.
Odd, I never thought about it before. My X isn't on that list.
Maybe it's because I know those people would love me enough to give up their life for me. I have no doubts about that. It's unconditional love. Love that will never go away or change.
My X may have been on that list at one time. Actually, I'm sure he was.
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I don't think I agree with a lot of this. Especially:
Do you stay because a blinding, incomprehensible mix of pain and relation pulls you close and holds you there??
-Then it's LOVE.
That's obsession. That's dependence. That's martyrdom.
I think some of us here were in co-dependent relationships before, but for most of us, we had healthy, happy homes that got sideswiped by breakdown. These extreme emotions are normal for people like us who were in shock and trauma for a long period of time, given the level of insanity we have been forced to deal with.
But now, we are growing forward. It is time for us, most of us being midlifers, too, to mature our view of love. We have all, as standers at one time or another in this, sacrificed bitterness, anger, resentment, and hatred in favor of agape, understanding, forgiveness, and empathy. We're already 10 steps ahead at getting to a more whole and rational view of love. I think working in that we should blindly accept cruel pain as part of that process (where it never was in my 20+ years with xH before) is more a result of victim identity issues than it would be commitment to a healthy life. Just my opinion!
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I understand the unconditional love for children. But I simply wouldn't risk trying to go back to the house to see them due to his violent nature.
What good would it do if he killed me?
I just had to let the whole thing go.
They wanted to label me as "crazy" and expected me to beg and plead and bombard them with " I love you so much how could you do this to me?" Bring DRAMA that's what they wanted. Listen to me suffer. They didn't get what they wanted.
The high road isn't easy.
And I agree Ready2 that sounds like obsession to me also. Something else I was accused of being by the ex with the girls. Any mother would be concerned and worried about her kids when they chose to live with an unbalanced whack job and his enabling mother. I'm just thankful my oldest daughter got away from the mess.
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I actually dont know if i believe in unconditional love for a spouse. Blood related yes i get that. If my kids comitted murder i may well hate what they have done but remain with unconditional mothers love.
If my spouse comitted murder i believe whilst serving his time in jail love would fade an perhaps die. Would i love him regardless, likely not in the longer term.
By virtue that marriage is a contract, dont all contracts come with a condition? Dont our boundaries set conditions et etc. Or maybe i had the wrong spouse and that has led to my belief.
Sd
X
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I'm glad Albatross posted this because I have been wondering what love is. I spoke with my wife yesterday. She was defensive, hyper-sensitive, slightly irritable, and a little bit uneasy, yet at times I also saw bits and pieces of the caring and compassionate woman I knew for so long. Anyway, I thoroughly enjoyed seeing her and talking with her but it left me wondering what this hold is that she has on me that I call love.
I totally get the giving your heart thing. I always felt that if she needed a heart transplant I would volunteer. That's not very likely to happen, but I would fall on a grenade to save her. My trauma therapist told me I was, and continue to be, her protector. I never have been very bright. :(
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ohhhh MBIB...((Hugs)) :)
We all do need protecting. What you might be feeling is self sacrifice.
This all takes a while to "get" I guess. :(
I don't believe in "unconditional" love for a spouse either.
Especially someone who treats you with no regard or respect. It's supposed to be an ADULT "give and take" TAKING TURNS AT THAT partner/ relationship. >:(
Children need boundaries and may learn respect due to them.
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That's not very likely to happen, but I would fall on a grenade to save her.
I see you are channeling your inner Bruno Mars. Perhaps you should go with The Lazy Song instead? ;)
It's sad that your W cannot appreciate you at this time. How messed up must an MLCer be? (rhetorical question, there)
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I agree In It, disrespect can come in many forms, but physical abuse is inexcusable.
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If my spouse comitted murder i believe whilst serving his time in jail love would fade an perhaps die. Would i love him regardless, likely not in the longer term.
By virtue that marriage is a contract, dont all contracts come with a condition? Dont our boundaries set conditions et etc. Or maybe i had the wrong spouse and that has led to my belief.
Sd
X
I believe that it is because of Your personal life experience. Any of MLCers lost identity and that was not happens at once like I have identity, now I don't. They actually in my opinion never develop unique own identity, perhaps they has some kind of identity and believe that it is their identity. That means they never be able connect with self and live in honesty with self and the world. Means they felt empty and unhappy most of their life. MLC is when they can't keep up on that way anymore. How then you successfully possibly love empty person? You can love him, but there no proper genuine feedback. Then there no possibility to develop deep multilayer loving relationship, not because of You, because of him. Two people can connect as much as each of them can connect with self. Also two people can develop true love as much as each of them can love self and on that way others. Of course lower capability of connection and love is in play. Ie convoy of ships cruising with speed of slowest ship.
So, You can be perfect human being and loving relationship with someone else would be as much as that person can love.
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You can't love an empty person..you can pour all your energy into them and not get anything in return. It doesn't lead to a very satisfying relationship.
I don't define myself by what happened to me.
I know who I am. Now everybody else gets to decide who they are.
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If my spouse comitted murder i believe whilst serving his time in jail love would fade an perhaps die. Would i love him regardless, likely not in the longer term.
By virtue that marriage is a contract, dont all contracts come with a condition? Dont our boundaries set conditions et etc. Or maybe i had the wrong spouse and that has led to my belief.
Sd
X
I believe that it is because of Your personal life experience. Any of MLCers lost identity and that was not happens at once like I have identity, now I don't. They actually in my opinion never develop unique own identity, perhaps they has some kind of identity and believe that it is their identity. That means they never be able connect with self and live in honesty with self and the world. Means they felt empty and unhappy most of their life. MLC is when they can't keep up on that way anymore. How then you successfully possibly love empty person? You can love him, but there no proper genuine feedback. Then there no possibility to develop deep multilayer loving relationship, not because of You, because of him. Two people can connect as much as each of them can connect with self. Also two people can develop true love as much as each of them can love self and on that way others. Of course lower capability of connection and love is in play. Ie convoy of ships cruising with speed of slowest ship.
So, You can be perfect human being and loving relationship with someone else would be as much as that person can love.
I agree, my h never actually had an identity. I have thought about this a lot. Really looked very hard and honestly at my life and my h. From the beginning it seems that he didn't have an identity. It would take a lot of space to explain the reasons that I believe this so I won't go there. I have changed all through my life, adding things to who I am or taking things away, but the main part of who I am remained and was not in question. I do not believe my h ever had a core identity. I think that left him vulnerable to this crisis and has made his process in it that much more difficult.
If you never knew who you were how can you have a base to work from.
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I feel like my W was the same...no identity or at least an unstable identity. Thought she was a strong Christian woman but now I realize that was a phase. And all of the other things she's done have been phases. Just like our R. In hindsight she had all the qualities that primed her for MLC.
Wonder if she'll spend the rest of her life bouncing around or will ever commit to something long term. Funny thing is that the stability and framework I provided gave her the opportunity to play with different hobbies/lifestyles. I'll be interested to see how her life progresses without me as her rock.