Midlife Crisis: Support for Left Behind Spouses
Archives => Archived Topics => Topic started by: a on August 23, 2014, 02:37:27 PM
-
Previous thread--
http://mlcforum.theherosspouse.com/index.php?topic=5388.0;all
RCR Note: this topic is a continuation of a discussion based on emails sent to Moment a few years ago. The story is in two parts and to catch up, you may want to at least read the email. I have linked each of the posts where she copied the emails below.
Part 1: http://mlcforum.theherosspouse.com/index.php?topic=5388.msg345201#msg345201
Part 2: http://mlcforum.theherosspouse.com/index.php?topic=5388.msg345718#msg345718
-
Wow that has to be the quickest anyone has ever got through a thread! We are all very intrigued by this one.
-
Attaching. :)
-
signing on to follow this discussion. I've had a couple thoughts on this, but one that's been nagging at me was the one where people have been talking about whether what they do influences their MLCer's path. I used to think I would have an influence on them, but the simple fact is I don't. It's their path. They're going to follow it no matter what I do. The key for me is to follow my path no matter what they do. As easy as it can be to get wrapped up in what they do, why they do and the rational or lack thereof, at some point it all becomes a massive time suck interfering with where I need and want to go. At some point, for the LBS, it needs to not be about them. It's about why I do the things I do. How can I do what I need, yet do so in a non-harmful way to myself and others.
I see where people thought the letter writer was yet to show remorse, but I started thinking about what remorse would or should look like to an LBS. Whether I stand or not, what does an MLCer have to do to show true remorse? I don't know. And ultimately does it matter if I forgive them? They are damaged and broken. They may provide their apology, but at some point they have to learn to forgive themselves. That's something I can't do, and something I think is at the root of all their problems. A lack of an ability to forgive themselves for whatever transgressions they have done or that have been done to them.
The challenge is there are no simple answers. It's complex enough to figure out why I do the things I do. Sometimes it's just to challenging to delve into the mind of another. But then I may change my mind tomorrow.
-
something I think is at the root of all their problems. A lack of an ability to forgive themselves for whatever transgressions they have done or that have been done to them.
Now that's an interesting thought zendog. Hadn't looked at it like that before, but is that the root of their issue?
Is it forgiveness that they can't give their foo, or others that did them wrong?
I always thought they needed to understand first why the things that happened to them occurred before they could forgive, but maybe I'm wrong.
-
Attaching
-
Attaching
-
Hi All
Saw J this morning at a group meditation. I told him about the responses from his emails and that there were so many perceptions about them. He just smiled and said he expected nothing less - "That's the thing about human beings we all come with the filter of our perceptions".
I asked him about the years of replay (i did not use this term with him), he said that yes while these years were filled with guilt and remorse, confusion, sadness and at times paranoia - he said that it was also a time in his life of great pleasure - that yes while he struggled with or rather tried not to struggle with his painful emotions - there were good times scattered amongst the turmoil - we as LBS's must try not project our emotional pain onto the MLCer and assume that they are experiencing the pain as we experience it or feel it. He said that weeks would go by without him feeling too bad about things - we should not buy into the premise that the MLCer is in constant emotional turmoil. He said that if he was not getting pleasure from his behaviors in those years he certainly would not have continued down that road for as long as he did.
He acknowledges that the LBS emotional pain is probably a lot more severe because we are not using pleasurable behaviors that can offer some relief. He said that his crash was because those pleasurable behaviors were contrary to who he thought he was - an ethical upstanding man. It was his conscience that finally could not cope with his actions. He said its like any addiction it brings pleasure but it is always at the expense of your well being and finding true joy. And in the end the pleasure for some, not all, is no longer able to sustain the illusion of happiness. For those in a more unconscious state define this pleasure as happiness and more often than not have successfully justified their creul and hurtful behaviour and moved on to live there lives - i think this is what has happened to XH.
Anyway i guess he was trying to say that we need to focus on our pain and find a way through and to not concern ourselves with MLCer because that impedes our healing. We need to find compassion for ourselves first and foremost. As the MLCer who is self-medicating with OW, booze and the like are actually experiencing real moments of pleasure. We may very well be projecting our pain onto our MLCers.
just a thought
take care
moment
-
Moment
That is the definition of MASKED DEPRESSION.
I agree with what he said.
They are running away from PAIN and we are trying to face it and work our way through it.
-
I read the post on an inability to forgive themselves and it struck a nerve with me.
My exW was molested as a child. She told me about it when we first met over 30yrs ago. She almost immediately denied it. She has never mentioned it since.
Her parents had made a photo album of her as she was growing up. Once in a while during the marriage we would look through all of the photos we had gathered and reminisce.
When we would look through the album of her childhood pictures? Without fail. She would see herself as a 9 or 10 year old girl and say "hideous" "ugly" and turn those pages in disgust.
I thought it was odd but it really didn't hit home with me until she had vanished from my life.
I realized that she never blamed the person that molested her. She despised the little girl that she was. I also realized that she locked that little girl away inside of herself and would never give her the love and forgiveness that little girl needed.
I am certain this crisis was brought on by her own "self-neglect" and for the venom she held for herself.
When she told me she "was never happy?" I do believe her now. I don't think she has ever been truly happy. I am sure it was impossible for her.
It occurred to me. If she hates the little girl inside? She has always hated herself.
-
I think this is one of the most complex and possibly fascinating threads I've yet come across on this site. Many, many topics all intertwined though! A lot to read.
Regarding 'boundaries', whatever I said when I last wrote, I wasn't implying a need for endless understanding and pity for the poor old MLCer. I think that that rightly concerned Stayed and OP, for it suggesetd UK had her boundaries WAY down.
I don't know really know how to explain this better, and maybe there is always a pinch of self-justification in what every one of us says (and what I'm about to say now), BUT I believe I do have good boundaries, despite my sympathy towards MLC-ers. They're fairly quiet and invisible boundaries, but they're there. I'm not fawning all over him and ready to act nurse maid if he comes limping back. BUT having spent way way too long reading up on MLC, and all related subjects (curiosity is in my nature) I can't help feeling sorry for him because I know now what causes MLC back when the MLC-ers were small(er).
MLC isn't a case of a would-be bachelor(ette) on a personal hedonism fest. It looks that way on the surface, but we all know there's more going on.
If the lbs remains in angry towards the MLC-er, isn't it possible that the lbs has a fuzzy boundary - i.e. still allowing the crisis to affect them when in fact it's not their crisis?
Jumbled thoughts,
UK
-
Today's posting by Moment really touched something within today.
It was the concept of pleasure. I have had lots of seconds lost thinking about how much fun my husband is having in his new life while I deal with the homes, the cars, the yard, the teenagers, the dogs, finding employment...basically all the responsibility and accountability while he went from sharing that to having none. Not forgetting the pain and loss and missing that I live with.
I have had people telling me he must be in his own personal hell, how could he be having fun. I never was 100 percent convinced that he wasn't. He goes to a pub almost every night to eat. He has been on trips, he has had numerous women tucked in with his steady one, the partying, the drugs....the list goes on. He can be who he either imagines himself to be or who he really is now living this life because he has all new friends and hobbies (drugs/alcohol and watching soccer - he is obsessed with soccer) He only fit his family in when it suited him or I guess if he was lonely.
This point by Mr J. spoke to me. It is like an addiction. As all addictions, there is pleasure or you wouldn't go back for more. I have seen a few exchanges between my husband and her where she accuses him of being addicted to her. That she is just a toy for his pleasure. This is what is bringing him happiness right now - pleasure.
My husband told me at the beginning of July that he was not happy. So he needed to divorce me. He flip flopped on that for the next 4 hours to only a week later decide we never had that conversation. That we are getting a divorce. He has since completely cut me out. I am dead to him. But the whole entire conversation always was around his need for happiness. In reading J's point, that is what screamed out to me - my husband is equating his pleasure he feels from partaking in this new lifestyle of partying, sex, free spending on non existant funds, no responsibilities as happiness.
I read that posting and it hurt. I know the truth of the situation. He spoke it real to Moment. It is what I have thought the entire time as I watched my husband leave that morning to start his new life with a bounce in his step and glee in his face as i sat on a chair absolutely destroyed. This whole crisis of my husband's has been about finding happiness for him.
I too have moments of pure happiness and pleasue throughout this journey. I think the difference is that they don't come from attempts to mask pain (alcohol, sex, drugs, shopping...whatever vices there are). I have not been that lost in my pain that I have missed the rainbows. (and trust me I have been lost!!!) As I am sure all of you have had moments of pleasure throughout your journey.
As UKStander wrote that she can't help feeling sorry for her MLC'er and that she had quiet and invisible boundaries for her spouse. I think I fall in that same category.
I can't find any anger toward my spouse that would last longer than the seconds I think about it. I feel for him. I know the essance of him. He has a great heart, generous and giving soul, he loved us deeply. This person he evolved into does not reflect his inner soul. I know he is tortured. I have had many conversations leading up to bomb drop about that. I see it in his face, his actions. It can't be easy to be him.
But that being said, I am not sure that an angry LBS is still allowing the crisis to affect them because I am not angry and trust me I know this is not my crisis but I do take it very personally and it affects me on many levels. I think bottom line is - it just depends on who you are and how life effects you- angry or not. Some of us have better tools to deflect and stand tall. Others are more absorbing of other's emotions and feel it rather acutely and others just fall somewhere in the middle of the spectrum.
-
I think this is a hugely significant writing that J. made and I certainly want to thank him and Moment for sharing these insights. I see a sad but incredibly self-reflecting life-story there. And I really liked his expression "taking ownerhsip" for what you have done - I think it is one of the most difficult parts of any recovery or crisis or life-changing experience.
For me, also the word "forgiving" rings bells. And I think it is an essential part of recovery and life-journey of human beings, and has to do with acknowledging our shadows, the taking of ownership and letting go/forgiving ourselves. I think it is an old wisdom that says that forgiving starts with oneself - who cannot forgive themselves, cannot forgive others. I have been thinking of this a lot now at the midst of my H crisis, because for me, his screaming accusations and blame towards me sound like he is not really forgiving himself, thus not forgiving me either. In other words, his behaviour shouts not accepting me, not accepting himself, fear and resentment towards me, but most importantly, towards himself. And the escape of those feelings. He is the upstanding guy escaping his feelings of failure, causing depression.
These texts have provoked yet another thought as well:
It seems to me that at the moment of writing these texts, it is when he has actually started to deal with the end of his marriage, emotionally. My point here is that it seems that during the six years of replay, even when he divorced etc, he was not really dealt with these actions, they were just put aside (just as he said).
Instead, his wife had to deal with it, went through the pain, recovered and healed, and found a new love. What it tells me is that in such a crisis, even when the MLCer takes divorce, marries someone else... If he/she is still in deep crisis, this person is not really dealing with these actions emotionally: they are put aside, as J. says. It seems that not until the crisis is over, does this person actually emotionally deal with the divorce etc, which might have concretely taken place years before. So it sound to me that J. is in this process while writing these texts: still talking about "his wife" (suddenly changing to ex-wife), wondering about the decisions of not to reconcile etc.
I found these texts very wise - coming for somebody who has really LIVED through a major life-crisis and has had the guts to come to terms with what happened. Unfortunately I think most people, even when recovering, do not want to take a close look at the damage they caused, but just to move on and make excuses (or take really years/decades to arrive at the acknowledgement - perhaps not until they see the same happening to their children or grand-children!). But I think there is very little the LBS or others can do about it. I though J's wife was very intelligent in stating that she would be there when needed (even if it was just as a friend), but meanwhile, when J was behaving in such a self-destructive manner and with lack of respect towards her and the kids, "she would maintain her distance". That is setting loving boundaries!
And yes, I think these kinds of life-crisis do cause, oblige, enable... Us to initiate also our "journey of self-discovery", the happiness from within. I think we all tend to forget about it, especially with kids and long marriages, and particularly in the midst of MLC, but it is important, because we cannot know where the crisis takes these people and in the meanwhile, we also have to live and be happy. Otherwise we just sacrifice our lives for their needs, which augments our resentments, not the forgiveness, so I figure we have to start from ourselves for not being able to resolve other people's crisis...
Kenai.
-
attaching
-
I went over what moment discussed with J about the crisis and found the conversation very interesting.
I certainly understand that the MLCer must be getting some highs from their behaviours, after all, that's what it's all about - having fun.
J had said that he had years filled with guilt, remorse, confusion, sadness and paranoia and that there were times filled with "great pleasure" I take from this that if much of the time spent in the aforementioned states of guilt etc., that when things were good, the pleasurable times were pleasurable when compared to the alternative. I would think that any LBS gains more from pleasurable times than prior to their partners MLC because when compared to what they are going through, the good times are amplified because of the constant stress we live under.
The same may be said for the MLCer, that when they have good times, these are amplified in comparison to the depression they feel. They are also constantly searching for happiness rather than being content with what they have. Each pleasure becomes old and fills a void for a short period before the search must continue. It must be exhausting.
I note J used the word pleasure and not happiness. I would imagine he was trying to find happiness outside of himself and never attained this, as happiness is within us, not exterior. Pleasure is exterior. The pleasurable moments were possibly short lived and fleeting, the happiness he had in his marriage prior to MLC would have been a constant and given him a much more fulfilling life. He chose pleasure over happiness for at least six years.
The most telling statement for me, was that he crashed because his pleasurable behaviours were contrary to who he thought he was He thought he was an "ethical, upstanding man and his conscience could no longer cope with his actions". BINGO. He went back to or at least found his "core person" again. He had to do this, it IS who he is at his core and this cannot be denied forever.
-
Whether I stand or not, what does an MLCer have to do to show true remorse?
For me, actions. Corrective actions. Offert to mend all that can be mended.
And ultimately does it matter if I forgive them?
Forgiveness is for us. For us not to live with anger, ressetment, sorrow. No idea if it matter or does not matter to them. But I have forgave mine. Forgave and take the MLCer back are two different things for me.
A lack of an ability to forgive themselves for whatever transgressions they have done or that have been done to them.
How easy would it be to forgive yourself if you had done all our MLCer did? Not very easy? The thing is they can't forgive themselves for what they have done, early on an affair (that could be stop and things would not go further), but they keep uping the madness and doing more and more stuff they cannot forgive themselves for.
He said that if he was not getting pleasure from his behaviors in those years he certainly would not have continued down that road for as long as he did.
Obviously. Just like and addict also has pleasure from their behaviours. I don't think MLCer are nothing but pain. In fact I think some of them, at least at times, really have fun and enjoy themselves. And that leads to the question, if they are enjoying themselves, why do they come out of crisis? Why do they regret their actions?
And to the other question, they know what they are doing, don't they? At least some of them know or at times they know. And if so, well, there is little space to sympathize with them.
He acknowledges that the LBS emotional pain is probably a lot more severe because we are not using pleasurable behaviors that can offer some relief.
Not necessarally. Some LBS use pleasurable behaviours. I did it early on. It was a lot of fun.
It was his conscience that finally could not cope with his actions. He said its like any addiction it brings pleasure but it is always at the expense of your well being and finding true joy.
Meaning those moments of fun really are not enough. And they drain the MLCer.
We may very well be projecting our pain onto our MLCers.
We may. But all those who had a MLCer returning had heard the MLCer talk about their pain. And those who still had not have a MLCer returned have heard the MLCer talk about their dark days, their demons, their anger. To me that equal pain. And there is also the physical toll MLC takes on the MLCer. At a point they no longer have a genuine smile, their eyes are dead. Happiness and joy have left.
Living With Hope, Mr J is my husband. Can we just call J, J? Thank you.
-
This is such a thought-provoking thread. I keep feeling I'm almost grasping something important but it slips away like an eel and I have to re-read and re-think.
It's all about the balance between guilt and forgiveness, isn't it?
A lack of an ability to forgive themselves for whatever transgressions they have done or that have been done to them.
How easy would it be to forgive yourself if you had done all our MLCer did? Not very easy?
Some of it's the torture of self-forgiveness, I'm sure. Sackcloth and ashes. But also there's a thick veneer of resentment from the partially cooked MLCer - after all, if we LBS had managed to find our own pleasure somehow, mask our own pain somehow, then the MLCer wouldn't feel so much burden of guilt. So why won't we take the primrose path and find our own pleasure, instead of the thorny LBS road? Some MLCers encourage the LBS to find a new partner and move on, simply to release them from guilt. If an MLCer thinks from this perspective, even in retrospect our pain may become minimized and our personal growth maximized in their eyes. See, in the end we've all grown, so no harm no foul! Certainly I'm not saying all MLCers view it this way, but I did hear my H articulate thoughts like this as he worked his way through.
-
...after all, if we LBS had managed to find our own pleasure somehow, mask our own pain somehow, then the MLCer wouldn't feel so much burden of guilt.
But when we have again found joy and our own pleasure, instead of it making the MLCer go less nuts, it seems in many cases it drives them more nuts and to do more, and more cruel, replay behaviour.
It remains the damanned if you do, damned if you don't. For a MLCer deep in crisis, no matter what the LBS does it will always bring anger, guilt, ressentment.
Even if the LNS remarries that will not bring the MLCer out of crisis not erase their guilt.
Not so certain we have all grown in the end. The LBS that has made the work on themselves, yes, the MLCer? Not so certain. Some will have grown, others will have not.
-
Sorry to dumb this down but I am sitting here thinking about Chocolate. I love eating Chocolate but it comes at a price. I know it's bad for me. Too much makes me sick and fat. I do so enjoy eating it but there is guilt after it immediately, despite the fact that while I am eating it, I feel happy and entitled to it. It is pleasure from an external source, like Summer said, and not something that comes from within.
I think we are all trying to get our heads around their concept of pleasure. It hurts to read that. It worked better for me to believe that every time H was with OW, they were arguing. It's confronting to consider something else although we all know that it must be true because even they are not dumb enough to keep doing something that is ALWAYS bad.
That brings me to another realisation about BD. We are often told that they never should have married us because it was all bad. We know it wasn't and we know they experienced pleasure/happiness with us just days before they BD'd. Some of them waffled quite a bit and in hindsight, I could see the war raging inside my H's head before he adopted the "we've always had trouble" stance.
Much like they realise the 'cost' of addictions, they must have felt like staying with us was 'costing' them their identity. It's all so confusing and I agree with what osb just wrote about almost grasping something and then it slipping away.
-
Anjae, didn't mean to sound like I endorse the viewpoint - these are crazy sentences I've heard from my H. H spent a lot of time temporizing, hoping I'd happily move on and thus take the unbearable pressure of guilt off him; and the 'no harm no foul' was his phrase. I ground my teeth, of course. I could've found easier ways to grow...
....gonna go get me some chocolate now ;) ....
-
I'm fine with their concept of pleasure. It cannot all be arguments and darkness. In fact I find it a little difficult to spend 4,5,6, years with someone and not have any pleasure in it.
Like I find it a little strange that someone can wake up by OW side and think who is this stranger. That is what people think on a drunk one night stand, not after 6 years with someone.
However we do know that the effects of the affair and their lifestyle start to show.
OSB, in your husband's case, since there was no OW, I think he is right, no harm, no foul, we all grow. Of course it was very painful for you, but he choose mountains, not another person. So for him I think it makes sense he sees it the way he does.
I must be a terrible person, I never feel guity because I've eaten chocolate (or pizza, or cake, or pasta). ;D ;D ;D Then again I still have two or three chocolates from Christmas left.
-
Ah, but I've never said there was no OW.... :( just don't talk about 'em.
Don't think any of us have it easier or harder. Just different for each of us.
-
Sorry, I thought there hasn't been one. That Mr osb had chose the mountains. Some, rare MLCers do not have OW. Or have but she does not last long. Other attach to OW like there is no tomorrow. Phew. One way or another, phew, nuts.
-
Hi,
I just wanted to join in as I've been reading along and wanted to add a couple of things.
As most of you know I've been at this just over four years. During the last year where my H stayed with me most w/e's he talked a lot about the emptiness within him and how awful he felt inside and that nothing he tried took the dreadful feeling away. He would just say to me that I had no idea what that was like! The other thing he said was that he realised that the live he's living is a fantasy and that the only real things are me and our children! None of this stops him of his crisis but shows he is at times aware of the situation!
I am at this present time now NC with him but one of my sons told me recently that my H keeps trying new things and thinks that this time he has found happiness. My son said this usually lasts for a week!!
I've noticed my H replay seems more manic from what others have told me so that says to me that whatever he's trying is not working so therefore he's trying even harder to find that ellusive happiness! Why does it take them so long to realise that happiness comes from within?!?
I hope this information helps some of you to see how our MLCer really feels!
X
-
Serenity, I have heard the same things fom my MLCer - that he feels empty, that he is trying to fill a void, that "nothing" is working. So he keeps doing the same things over and over again. I see him continually buy new clothes. Still. I guess the thrill of wearing that new shirt only lasts a time or two and then another one is needed.
I sit back from my vantage point in the land of the sane and just shake my head. It really is very sad. I wonder if he will ever figure it out - he is now about to enter his seventh year of overt crisis. What a waste.
-
Attaching :)
31
-
Oh trusting,
Like you said all so sad and such a waste!
I'm on a similar timeline to you. It's so hard to ever see how they will find their way through this!
Hugs
X
-
Hi All
Happiness comes from within - i always wondered how do you get to that state. I know its about how you choose to see things but really until you have experienced a life altering circumstance be it MLC or an illness of loss of a child - it is very difficult not to be overcome by grief, pain, sorrow and fear. While out there i think this passage from Deepak Chopra best describes "happiness comes from within" - its not as easy as we think to find that inner happiness.
__________________________________________________________________
Let our life be a like river that flows easily between the banks of pleasure and pain, never getting stuck on either side. That’s not the problem. The problem occurs when we cling to the banks, either the positive one or the negative one. When we quietly reconcile ourselves to all the contradictions that life offers, when we can comfortably flow between the banks of pleasure and pain, experiencing them both while getting stuck in neither, then we have achieved freedom.
Joy and sorrow, happiness and suffering are the play of opposites; they are transient because they are time-bound. Spirit, the essential you, is independent of the play of opposites; it dwells in the silent bliss of the eternal. And when you know yourself as this field of pure consciousness, then you are living from the source, which is bliss.
That’s why the key to lasting happiness is to stop looking for it, and to know that you already have it. If you look for happiness you will never find it. If you think it’s around the corner, then you will keep turning corners. The real key to happiness is t live and play in the field of intelligence that is beyond positive and negative. That field is your source, and it is magical, holy, joyful and free ~ Deepak Chopra
take care
moment
-
Hi Moment,
I just want to say I absolutely love your post on happiness.
So very true. I only wish my H would finally "get it". I am also beginning to believe that depression plays such a huge part in all of this.
Thinking back on the loss of my son I do remember feeling much like my H feels. I didn't run but I sure felt like it a lot of the time. And I did search for happiness outside myself. I remember when I started having feelings again but when I did try to connect with H again he pushed me away. And that's when his MLC started.
Your post really hit home for me. Thank you
-
Dear PixieGirl
You are welcome - i am so very sorry for your loss.
(((hugs)))
moment
-
Hello All!
Moment, thank you for sharing!
I am sorry I am late coming to this discussion but if you all don't mind I would like to add my .02 to a few things. But please remember that what I am saying is only my opinion based on my experience. And Jae's part, I just pasted parts of the email he sent me last night so it's a bit choppy and he is pretty rough and gruff and blunt. We don't mean to insult anyone, but I thought perhaps his thoughts might/would have something of value to add to the conversation.
First, as some of you know, I have my XH Genius in Replay currently and for the last years or so. We have no contact. I also have Jae at home, my best friend and Galapagos Turtle (SLOOOOWWWW) whose MLC lasted over 9 years. He is now in recovery, awake, and viewing the world from an angle that does not include a bird's eye view of his colon. ;D ;)
I just knew when I read the first part, it was early in the final stages. I remember Jae at that stage. So many similarities. It is also why I have not let Jae post on here as he has wanted several times. He is just not ready yet.
But, If I may, I would like to relate a few of the things that Jae and I spoke (emailed) about following his reading the parts.
When I asked him what he thought of the letter, his reply was "Sure I remember this part, when I was still part A**hat. This guy is still not quite there, I don't think."
Jae and I were both bothered so much by this-
I asked him about the years of replay (i did not use this term with him), he said that yes while these years were filled with guilt and remorse, confusion, sadness and at times paranoia - he said that it was also a time in his life of great pleasure - that yes while he struggled with or rather tried not to struggle with his painful emotions - there were good times scattered amongst the turmoil - we as LBS's must try not project our emotional pain onto the MLCer and assume that they are experiencing the pain as we experience it or feel it. He said that weeks would go by without him feeling too bad about things - we should not buy into the premise that the MLCer is in constant emotional turmoil. He said that if he was not getting pleasure from his behaviors in those years he certainly would not have continued down that road for as long as he did.
Jae said, this is just B*llsh*t in his opinion. Yes, there is the definitional differences between pleasure and happiness. But for him, he said, "The reason for me that weeks'd go by where I wasn't feeling to bad about things was because I was f*ckin MANIC, and to keep myself manic meant the pain would stay away. I always knew it was there and if I was not in a constant state of motion and action and drugs and drinking and women and parties I felt the pain. While high, however I did it, I didn't feel the pain and the squirrels in my head quit spinning me in giant circles, confusing me. That was where the pleasure came in that cost me my soul. And I had to crank it up farther and farther to keep the bad thoughts out." "But I didn't realize this until later in recovery than this guy seems to be."
"Let me tell you why I say he isn't far along and maybe wont ever get it. He is still romanticizing the trip in a bunch of ways. He still doesn't get it-the whole addiction and pleasure connection. Any recovering addict will tell you that you may start out getting pleasure from something (but then the monkey is on your back). You only need the pleasure cuz your covering over a hole in you where the pain is. This sorta pleasure that is. (The rest of the time the things that brought you pleasure before don't cuz they are not enough to get by the anhedonia crap. Just not enough stimulation.) "And you know why this guy kept doing those things? It wasn't cuz he got pleasure, it was an addict has to do them to maintain. Your always chasing the next high. Avoiding the crash. And ya need more and more just to maintain. It's not fun anymore. It is a 'has to do just to get by'." "LP calls it exercising my bast*rd side, keeping him alive. See the bast*rd has to be fed pleasures like women, drugs, drinkin, arrogance, fighting, whatever. Ya don't keep doin the stuff, continuing down the road, to feel the pleasure, but to avoid the pain and turmoil. It occupies your mind for a bit, like filling a whole with sand. But when you stand still on the sand, you sink. SO you have to keep moving. Ya think, it worked for a minute before, so just need to keep on. This guy needs to get real and get honest all the way with himself, fancy articulate tongue or not."
"And all that stuff about his exwife having less to be ashamed about than that guy does? At that time, I was just trying to wrap my head around what I had done, the disaster of my life, my kids hating me, exwife gone. Learning how to live with that. So I started out thinking, I will own my part only. But Exwife must have had some to own to?? Yeah, I'll say mine is more than half. But hers is still there. See there is still some depression there so I still blamed just not as much. As time passed, I was able to see that more and more of the percents belonged to me. I learned to live with that. I had to. It was real. It's not my job to judge if Exwife has things to be ashamed of. I have enough of my own. Sh*t I barely have ashes to rebuild with. And she did what she had to do to get by. I blew her world and she did what she could to get by. It would be a lot easier on me if she had moved on with her life, totally, fixed herself and all that stuff you talk about. But she didn't. I get that and it was her choice. I also get that I slashed and burned her world. I'm responsible for putting her in a place that she had to fight her way out of just to get by in the world. And you know that she and I are tight close even now. But she has nothing to feel ashamed about. We do what we do how we know how to save ourselves. She saved herself and fed the kids, not how I wanted, but it got done when I was in no shape to do it."
"This whole f*ckin sh*tty thing is not about searching for pleasure. It's about filling the whole and avoiding pain. Stay manic. Stay up. Convince yourself your all that. I mean who knew that all these women were just waiting to do me if I only got divorced? Man, I was serious when I said that. But behind that I knew that I was filling a hole where my self sense should have been. I felt that bad about myself."
"About the Buddhist thing, man do I get that. At the end, your looking for a new meaning, a way to live with and accept everything. Your looking for peace and closure, and meaning. Buddhism offers all that and forgiveness. It becomes a new addiction for us I think to find peace. Not such a bad new addiction. My side of the house is all done in Oriental stuff ya know. I built my zen room. It's my own little corner of the world where nothing can touch me and kitty. There is peace there."
(J changed to Jae for this post to avoid confusion between Moment's J and LP's J)
-
We now have three J's in the mix.
Anjae's H is Mr J
Moment's friend is J
and Lawprofessor, your friend is also J. As he is an introduction to this thread, can he be called something else on here? Jae maybe, as we are not meant to use real names?
I'll change it to that, for this thread, just to alleviate confusion. If you want it changed to something else, just let me know.
-
Interesting post LP. Thanks also to J (Jae) for sharing.
I think Jae's description would fit my MLCer more from what he has articulated too.
It also aligns with Terence Real's description of male (covert) depression.
-
Sure Kikki, that sounds fine with me. I had not noticed 3 J's but I am making a mental note not to name a child J and not to date any men by that name either!
As to my last .02-earlier you all discussed whether the LBS can do anything to lengthen or shorten the journey of the MLC person.
I would like to cast my vote firmly on the side of YES.
I have observed that with my own eyes in my opinion.
Jae's crisis was lengthened by his ex-wife. She never did the work on herself. She is still the same woman that he abandoned. She never got a job, never got a life, never healed. She just found a string of men to take care of her and the kids since she did not want to get a job. She refused to return to school to get a diploma or job training when I offered to pay for it. She sits at home, day after day, lonely, depressed, and angry. Plain and simple. Another fact is that if she had done those things, I know for certain that they would be back together again. He keeps trying though. He tells her he does not want to go back to the old marriage, the old relationship. Her response is always, "That is what I want. There is nothing wrong with the old marriage." Jae has told me over and over that he kept checking on her to see what she was doing while he was gone. She was always in the same place. He knew she was waiting for him. To him that meant that it was ok to keep on that path as he was because he could always go home again and pick up where he left off. Each time he checked, he told me he got a trapped scared feeling. So he ran farther and faster.
When she and I talked about this, she told me she was glad he was in the mess for longer, that he deserved it, and he should be in h*ll until he comes back to her the same as he was. She is quite angry at this time that he is getting his life together as well. She said, "Oh, gee I am so glad he is having such a wonderful life and getting better. What about me? When is it time for me?"
Remember please, that his ex-wife is a friend of mine. I have known her as long as I have known Jae. I helped her get orders for child support from him and tracked him down to enforce those orders for her. She and I go out socially together as well so I am not being derogatory when I say this. It is just a fact.
And yes, it is more pressure for the LBS. But just what in this journey has not been pressure for the LBS???? And what has been fair for the LBS??? Nothing that I know of is easy or fair for the LBS.
It is true that we did not break them. We did not cause this crisis. We do not have to accept any responsibility for it happening. But, I also think we can prolong the crisis by our behavior and response to it over the long term. It does not mean we have to do anything about it or take any responsibility. Each of our responses is our own.
Thank you for your time and consideration in reading!
-
Sure Kikki, that sounds fine with me. I had not noticed 3 J's but I am making a mental note not to name a child J and not to date any men by that name either!
;D ;D ;D wise woman
-
Wow, this exchange is a true goldmine. Thank you LP and Jae for your input! How interesting to get such an insight in the MLCer's mind.
I can definitely see the addict dynamic in Jae's description. Not so much in J's...
-
LP, thanks for posting your roommate's take on it. I also have a Galapagos turtle who lives in my basement, wallowing away in his crisis.
"This whole f*ckin sh*tty thing is not about searching for pleasure. It's about filling the whole and avoiding pain. Stay manic. Stay up. Convince yourself your all that. I mean who knew that all these women were just waiting to do me if I only got divorced? Man, I was serious when I said that. But behind that I knew that I was filling a hole where my self sense should have been. I felt that bad about myself."
This is my husband. He self-medicates by staying as busy as he possibly can. Manic is a great word used to describe it. I have long felt that it was because he didn't want to stop or things would come crashing down and he would have to be alone with himself. I do get a front row view, and it seems when he isn't manically busy, he is noticeably depressed.
What you said about his wife's failure to work on herself as prolonging his crisis, does he feel it actually prolonged the crisis itself, or just prolonged the time until he wanted to move back toward her?
I do know that I personally have changed so much during this crisis. I am far more settled and independent than I ever used to be. If my husband ever decides to return, he has a much better wife waiting for him (and I thought I was a good one before!).
-
Thanks for posting Jae vision of things, lawprofessor.
Read2, does the letter J has a meaning? We now do have 3 J’s and all with lengthy, troubles MLC.
quote author=lawprofessor link=topic=5399.msg346724#msg346724 date=1409001267]
"The reason for me that weeks'd go by where I wasn't feeling to bad about things was because I was f*ckin MANIC, and to keep myself manic meant the pain would stay away. I always knew it was there and if I was not in a constant state of motion and action and drugs and drinking and women and parties I felt the pain. While high, however I did it, I didn't feel the pain and the squirrels in my head quit spinning me in giant circles, confusing me.
[/quote]
Mr J was told me the same several times, but in a more concise form: he could not stop because if he did he had to think and face all he had done (is doing). He had to keep in motion.
It's not my job to judge if Exwife has things to be ashamed of. I have enough of my own. Sh*t I barely have ashes to rebuild with. And she did what she had to do to get by.
Standing ovation to Jae. It really is not the MLCer job to judge the LBS. It does not matter if the LBS has, or has not, done the whole work, moved on. The MLCer cannot judge the LBS.
MLC high replay is, like Jae said and like we have talked about many times in several threads, pretty much like addiction. Higher and higher dosages are required to obtain the same effect, at a point almost no effect at all happens. The MLCer, like the addict, keeps running for more. But more only leads to bigger frustration and more addiction.
-
Read2, does the letter J has a meaning? We now do have 3 J’s and all with lengthy, troubles MLC.
I can only look up jaybirds! Numerology and typography are going to have to be someone else's arena. Unless we're talking synaesthesia, in which case, my diagnosis is "green". ;D ;D ;D ;D
In Hoss' moments of clarity his explanations lean toward Jae's too. Said it feels like a hamster wheel, and that at the beginning of all of this, his emotions were totally numb. When he slowed down and allowed himself to feel, the tears wouldn't stop, and it was literally about anything. He described the plot of Captain America to me and literally broke down in the kitchen and I had to hold him and console him. Once those emotions hit, he went straight back into the tunnel harder than before. I see what he's avoiding, but it will come for him, whether he likes it or not.
-
What I am feeling from these stories is that the length of time that it takes is indeed much longer than I thought at the beginning of all this. I see his replay behaviors still, 5 years post BD. It is still going to take a very long time, and indeed he may never make it through.
Makes me smile as I remember a conversation I had with a priest on our anniversary 5 years ago, the first time we had been apart in 32 years. I explained my situation and the priest asked me how long I would "wait'" for him...my answer was "forever" and I guess that has not changed for me.
These stories do help me to understand more, not just about his crisis, but also about my own journey. They help me to detach even more.
I see the "manic" lifestyle as well and in certain ways, I am guilty myself of filling up by days as full as possible and falling asleep dead tired at night. If I can have a packed agenda, I can push through each day much better. So in small way, I can see why the MLCer would be so "wild" in their lifestyle choices.
But, I also think we can prolong the crisis by our behavior and response to it over the long term.
This is something to think about, although the work that the LBSer must do has to be for herself/himself and NOT to try and shorten the crisis because it's not that clear cut. That is why I think that some contact with the MLCer might not be a bad thing for they get to see the work in progress.
This strength, this getting on with our life without their help might help them to see that they no longer take that number 1 spot in our life anymore. I am not sure whether that will change the length of time or not. I still think that there is an internal "clock" that may not be possible to move either ahead or back.
I used to hope that some significant event would "shock" him out of this but in neither of these cases that have been documented here do I see that and indeed, there have been some major shocks in my h's life that I would have thought might cause a change in his attitude.
I am not sure if life is worse or more painful for the LBSer or for the MLCer. Not sure that pain is even measurable in that way.
-
Since you cannot be of heap, Ready2, I asked that know it all thing called Google. ;D It said “J is the numerical equivalent of 10/1 and represents our aspirations. This letter is truthful, benevolent and intelligent. When it is the first consonant in a name the bearer will possess an unyielding desire not to give up and will therefore find success - eventually. Negatively, J can be lazy and lack direction.” Lack direction? Right. ::)
Not sure if I know from what Mr J is running from. The mess he made? Certainly. But there is something more. And that something more I don't think I know what it is.
As for the LBS doing or not doing the work and it may prolong the MLCer crisis. Some LBS have done the work and the MLCer had/still is having a very long crisis. Some LBS did not do the work and the MLCer had /is having a very long crisis. Some LBS did the work and the MLCer had a shorter crisis. Some LBS did not do the work and the MLCer had a shorter crisis. It is pretty much up to the MLCer and its demons.
The leght is, in many case, much longer that we could have thought. Replay can last 10 years and we know Replay is just one part of MLC. Regarding contact with the MLCer so that they can see progress. That is, in my view, a personal choice of the LBS. I do not want contact with Mr J . He is too nits and I have no need of him to see/know if I have, or have not changed. In fact, and since I have, I think I less and less want to have anything to do with him. I've changed a lot, he remains in the same place he was all those years ago.
All I know is that, a point come when there is no more pain for the LBS. At least in my personal experience that is what happened.
Unlike you xyzcf, I like to have has much as possible free, doing nothing time. It was not like that early on (maybe for some 3.5-4 years), but I start to slow down and to allow lots of free, quiet time, including plenty on my own.
-
Jae's crisis was lengthened by his ex-wife. She never did the work on herself. She is still the same woman that he abandoned. She never got a job, never got a life, never healed. She just found a string of men to take care of her and the kids since she did not want to get a job. She refused to return to school to get a diploma or job training when I offered to pay for it. She sits at home, day after day, lonely, depressed, and angry. Plain and simple. Another fact is that if she had done those things, I know for certain that they would be back together again. He keeps trying though. He tells her he does not want to go back to the old marriage, the old relationship. Her response is always, "That is what I want. There is nothing wrong with the old marriage."
Been thinking.
My ex upon BD let known 2 things he was unhappy about with me. One being, I refuse to go to work. *Note: He was the one who agreed to let me stop work once he started doing well in his business.
Suddenly the business took a dip and it became my fault because I wasn't working. Not because he was incompetent, not because he generated great dissatisfaction by shouting at his clients and his staff due to stress. Oh no, it was because I wasn't working. Convenient.
So now he expects me to change, to lead the kind of life he wants me to lead, just so he can 'get over his crisis'? I don't think so. For my ex, the real problem doesn't lie in how much I was making or not making, but how much the company wasn't making under his stewardship. In fact I gave him a huge 5-figure sum to help with the cash flow and in a couple of months it was gone. Then came the BD. Truth is, and he knows it deep down, his ego took a big blow. Probably realised he didn't have what it takes to be as successful as he wanted to be. Instead of having to face it squarely and take steps to overcome his shortcomings and persevere/change strategy etc, he puts the blame on someone else. Denial.
In Jae's case, it seems many other men were able to pick up where he failed and he knows it. GAL is for me, not for him. If I can be independent of him, it will open more doors for me. As I see it, GAL doesn't open the door for him, in fact, it closes it. The door is kept open only because of whatever love we have left for the abandoner.
-
Just to add my ha'porth worth.
I found J's writing c/o moment interesting as also Jae's response to it.
I agree that there does seem to be a degree of romanticism in J's writing and whilst I don't dispute anything that J says nor do I intend to dishonour his feelings/responses/attitude about it - I perceive a sense of self pity in it.
His use of the word pleasure is also interesting and more appropriate to my H who, compared to an awful lot of you on here, seems to be having a milder MLC although he is still firmly in replay. Like LP's Jae - he does attempt to keep busy so there is a degree of mania in him.
J also talks about his actions during replay but not much about the words he used to his wife. I know MLCer's memories are shot but do they really not remember the lying they do, the secretive planning and furtive behaviour, the coldness and silence, the angry, vicious words they use, the anger they show, the potential, as in some LBS's cases, for violence?
Is there an ex MLCer who can remember that and help us understand?
Both of these MLCers also left the marital home. It would be good to have an ex MLCer that stayed at home whether a wallower or high energy and quiz his or her experience.
Thank you moment for posting these e-mails and keeping us updated - most interesting
I'm with Stayed in that perhaps LBSs ought write more about how to respond, heal and recover from an MLC whether reconciled or not; our own stories might help us all a little more rather than staying focussed on the MLCer and his/her journey.
-
I think this is an interesting discussion, on all fronts. Every person and every experience is different. But, J and Jae (incidentally my ex is also a J and so was his MLCer father) are also very different, though similar in ways that my ex is not. Perhaps you could put them on a spectrum of their aversive behaviors. J was a more fervent MLCer than my ex is, and Jae even more so. Not all MLCers become partiers, some become workaholics, or marathon runners. Mine met and married his OW and threw himself into becoming the bionic family man.
So, your drug of choice also causes different outcomes, I think, and drugs tell you what you need or lack in your personal inventory. We all have drugs of choice. Many of those who fight for legal pot claim it's no worse than alcohol, just different chemistry, so they don't know why everyone gets so bent out of shape. But I hate pot, it makes me slow and stupid, while alcohol makes me relaxed. I have done all kinds of other drugs, and my ADHD chemistry definitely draws me to some more than others. I am a low self-esteem intellectual. I am drawn to work where I excel and could easily be a workaholic, and while I NEED exercise, my endorphin high is not so high that I could ever become an ultra-athlete. For whatever reason, J and Jae sought substances and lots of women, so IF they were basically good people at their core, lacking the gene for serious addiction, the chances that one day things would all catch up with them is pretty inevitable. The ones who turn to "normal" MLC pursuits are not the same, I would argue.
On the scale of WOW to HMMM, Jae seems like a WOW, J was a wow, and my ex is a HMMM. There are still many people who probably believe that he left because I was a crappy wife and now he found the perfect family. I have never tried to discredit him or bring shame to his current situation. By all appearances, he is perfect. He does not drink or do drugs, he is VERY respected professionally, but I still see the weirdness, and so do his kids. But even I may never know what actually happened to him. I expect he will live out his life with his new family for quite a while, 10-15 years maybe, until she leaves him for her new and improved man, at which point I envision he will engage in a short disastrous dalliance, and then wake up and want to come back to me. I do think they all want to return at some point.
But, at that point, what are you getting and what was the opportunity cost? Because while he is spinning in the wind, happy or not, whatever pleasures or pain he may have, I found a man who LOVES me... No, it's not the same, no we don't have the history and he is not the father of my children. BUT, my boys can SEE, even in their pain and discomfort, that he loves me. That gift is priceless. For my teenagers to see another man value and respect me, want to take care of me, despite the fact that I don't need it, is priceless. If I were to remain single, or casually waltz through a series of dalliances, they might be able to believe that he was right and I am not worthy of a good man. But, when I see them tweet about how angry it makes them to see NG (my new guy is also a J...) treat me well, I know I win.
And regarding the point about whether LBS can impact the crisis and Jae seeing his wife be the same person he left... I also have a problem with that. Is he seeking continued pretzeling? Because yes, I can look back on all the reasons exH left me and what he thought he wanted--was I supposed to pursue them? I didn't, the pretzeling ended on BD. And I sought to become MY person, the person I left the first time I rolled over to his needs and demands. How is Jae's wife supposed to know what would make her attractive, and what if she does something he could not accept? I gave up a career for my ex, so we would never have to compete. Now I work for his old boss, and I took up several hobbies he detested and made friends he would hate... As a stander, I would not have been able to do those things, but I am happier now than I ever have been in my life, truly. I never wanted to give up work, or my friends, but we made his more important, because you really do only have so much time and energy, and I was glad to do it, for my family. I was never unhappy in my M, and I never really felt abused or taken advantage of. BUT, in hindsight, with the perspective of a man who appreciates me, I get it...
Not sure I had a point here, just a totally different perspective, from a non-stander... Love and light, ll
-
All I can say is thank goodness my H's name doesn't begin with J.
The journey is long enough!!
My H is a stay at home monster/cheater/financial abuser and all around good guy >:( >:(
My intention is, when he gets out of his tunnel full of quicksand, that he posts here and has a "tell all" story for the live-in MLCer.
He thinks I am a dragon, I wish I was - I would get into that tunnel and breathe fire onto his sorry backside until he runs out the other end ;D.
Stay fabulous fellow LBS's. These J posts are a wonderful insight into a truly horrible MLC world.
-
I think Jae's post cleared up a few of the niggles I had about Js emails. I am grateful to both men for sharing their feelings.
My MLCer is no where near as way out there as J or Jae and does not do drugs etc. to run from whatever he is running from. LisaLives explains it well, when we see such overt acting out it is almost more reassuring than the rather boring workaholic, ow-a-holic, on the surface one might think this MLCer is doing fine and getting what he wants out of life.
J talks about the pleasure he felt, that he had some great times during his crisis. This is what I see with my MLCer and yet I also see a man who is constantly moving, says one thing but does another and seems to be running from his true, authentic self and this is why I am so confused. I would rather hear Jae's explanation if I am honest, so maybe i do project my pain onto the MLCer?
-
My H is a stay at home monster/cheater/financial abuser and all around good guy >:( >:(
My intention is, when he gets out of his tunnel full of quicksand, that he posts here and has a "tell all" story for the live-in MLCer.
He thinks I am a dragon, I wish I was - I would get into that tunnel and breathe fire onto his sorry backside until he runs out the other end ;D.
Summer, I also have a live in MLCer. Fortunately, I don't get a lot of mean monster (though to me, the coldness is monster enough). I do like your dragon approach to light him out of the tunnel. I have considered the heavy cast iron skillet method for speeding up the crisis.
-
The perspectives of all the J's are fascinating. I agree they seem to have written at different stages of their own understanding or evolution. Learned a lot from reading.
The question about how much work the LBS needs to do is a tricky one, isn't it? On the one hand I resent like hell being told "you've changed so much" (hey, not for your benefit buddy >:( ) but on the other I can see why me lurching off my metaphorical backside tacitly encouraged my H to do his own work. I think we LBS's can also become shocked and depressed by the lead-up to our partner's MLC (I know I was, stunned into physical and mental immobility like a turtle entering a shell and thinking it'll make the nasty world go away). If I was still in that craven dark place (and probably would've been except for the advice on this forum!), I would've looked to my H like emotional quicksand. Never mind the impact on me (I might've gone through with that suicidal ideation; or found anger as a bulwark against the world, and bcome a person I really didn't like to be). So, much as I resent it, guess I grew because I needed to.
I'm still too early in reconnection to have heard a lot of tunnel stories (,,,er, not sure I wish to, TBH). My H vacillated between live-at-home monster and high-energy runaway. But I've heard him distance himself from his old thinking processes by saying "I'm not that guy anymore... I was a really angry guy and I shouldn't ever have said those things... I was never searching for myself; I always knew exactly who and what I was, I just hated it". It'll surely take a long time for H to process what he did, even after he's recommitted to the marriage. How much longer for those who don't return?
-
Hi All
To put some humor into this i called my friend J not because his name begins with J i simply chose the letter at random - now that's the unified field for you ;)
J certainly was not implying that his pleasure was happiness. J makes a very clear distinction that pleasure is fleeting while happiness is lasting. He was trying to advise the LBS's on this board to simply not project your pain onto the MLCer. He was actually trying to empathize with LBS's because for many of us we are not seeking the pleasure that masks and relieves the pain while the MLCer is finding pleasure which does alleviate the pain for a time. He is also acutely aware of the deep and traumatic pain he caused his wife and daughters and he knows that they had no means of escape from the realities of his actions.
NOWHERE did J say that the pleasure was enough to overcome the craziness, the pain and the fear behind his actions, thoughts and behavior during his crisis. If it did he would not have hit rock bottom, he would not have crashed to the pits of despair. However the pleasure kept the pain at bay and that why he continued his behavior for as long as he did.
Furthermore, J's wife made many positive changes which he admired - maybe J unlike Jae - has truly overcome his anger towards his XW hence the more romantic (i would say loving) approach to his XW.
At the end of the day one MLCer cannot speak on behalf of another MLCer's experience calling it BS just because the language being used is gentler - it certainly did not make the experience any less manic or traumatic. J has truly become a very gentle soul - well that's what i see anyway. Also note that its been 5+ years since the day J crashed. From beginning of replay to today its been 11+ years.
It is clear hat J and Jae have different perspective for similar coping mechanisms used during crisis. It does not make one perspective more accurate or more real than another.
A wise friend always reminds me that a story has as many perspective as there are people involved in the story and then there is the truth.
take care
moment
-
This is all interesting and informative to read. I really appreciate all the different perspectives.
While the majority of the stories begin the same, with BD, the mlcers have many different roads that they take.
Some high energy mlcers choose high energy activities and OWs to find their pleasure. I think these high energy, very reckless ones have the propensity to crash quicker ("quicker" being a relative term). With the really high energy, I believe one will see multiple OWs, alcohol, drug use, or manic spending. Maybe all!!! These very reckless behaviors can bring rock bottom sooner than lower energy mlcers.
That is not to say that this means higher energy types end their crisis sooner. A crash to end high energy replay does not end the crisis. It just may shorten the replay stage, as the Mlcer has no more funds or "friends" enable the replay activity.
Some mlcers may return home at this point. Suddenly the "controlling" lbs is a preferred situation. After all, the lbs had "gotten over" the initial shock and has picked herself back up. She's there to rescue him! And boy does he need rescuing! His life is in a shambles!
But, what has he learned? He spent all that time replaying and avoiding until he crashed. Now he's returning home to be saved by the lbs. Sometimes these mlcers run again as soon as they start feeling better. Just like a sobered up alcoholic may celebrate the good fortune of finding a new job by having a beer. This time he will be smarter. This time he will not overdo it. And the next thing he's being arrested for a DUI.
While a lower energy my never (physically) leave the home. Or the Mlcer will attempt to start all over with a new partner or wife, maybe even having more kids to attempt to get it right this time.
We are reminded that the stages are not linear or even chronological. I remember reading in one of the articles that the Mlcer may enter liminality multiple times, and then rush back into replay as he isn't ready to face his shadow.
I think that my Mlcer had times if liminality between OWs (this one is number 3 and has outlasted the other two considerably). But, he went back into replay to continue to avoid. Sometimes we call these moments of clarity.
The thing is, as lbs, we continue to look for signs that the mlcer is moving through the crisis. There is really no way to know. There really isn't.
They have many lessons to learn. And during replay they seem to learn nothing.
Not even sure what my point is anymore.
I guess I'm just thinking out loud, trying to understand.
L
-
Very interesting stories from these two men, hmmm though.
I just have a comment about the lbs doing work etc. I have a slightly different scenario. Besides all the bs of being controlling etc etc. that everyone gets, my h's complaint ultimately was that I had grown so much and become someone my h couldn't keep up with. That complaint came around year 2. Told me I no longer resembled the needy shy girl he met. Told me that he sat back and watched me change and grown and he just stayed the same. So what if then our changes happen prior to bd and the mlcer then sees full force of their own shortcomings, as mine did.
My point I suppose is that we have absolutely nothing to do with it, grow, change regardless. I do not think that it's the lbs has any influence either way, it never has been or never will be anything to do with us, it's all about them. Change cos you want to or indeed don't and be how you want to be it makes no difference to anyone other than you.
I particularly didn't like the comment from the first man regarding his wife having less to be ashamed of, yeah totally agree with those who said he hadn't quite got it when he wrote that.
Ultimately you gotta decide if there is too much water under the bridge or not.
Sd
-
I tend to agree with you. I think if there are changes that you want to make for yourself then do so. But I don't think it makes much difference to the mlc. I've looked very hard at how I was in my marriage and the things I didn't like abouthow I interacted in my marriage I'm discarding. That's healthy. H wasnt and still isn't perfect. I didn't use it as an excuse to leave him. The terrible things he's done and said since bd were still not enough to make me run.
Supposedly until their crisis hit they wouldn't have run. Yes we can always try and be better people but I don't think it has much to do with whether they return or not. I think some of them are just stronger or more in touch with themselves and better able to face up to the mess they made.
And I believe some will never face it. It's easier not to and that's the road they will take even if they lose their whole family. Unfortunately we can't predict which ones will take which roads. So don't change anything for them.
How we respond I think is more important. And that's even impossible to figure out because they aren't anyone we know anymore. We don't know what they want or need and they probably can't tell us. It's the saddest part of the whole thing.
-
Hi All!
I would like to clarify a few things if I may? I stupidly did not take into account that people would be reading the post who were not familiar with my story. I do apologize for that.
To clarify-as to the issue of pretzeling: Most of us are all too familiar with the silly complaints our spouses in MLC have had about us, and we can divine the difference between real complaints and the nonsense ones. For example, Genius said he and I could not be together because I once made him watch Everybody Loves Raymond for 15 minutes which was the worst 15 minutes of his life. Many of us, however, realize that there is a grain (or boulder) of truth in some of the complaints.
When I say Jae wanted his wife to change, it is the more legitimate things I am discussing. I hold Jae 100% accountable for his horrible actions and nasty thoughtless mean reactions to things. I do not wish to be seen as defending him in any way. I have been terribly hard on him, freely kicking him in the shell on more than one occasion as I have written often. He refers to living at my home as boot camp in fact.
That said, Jae and I discussed many of your all responses to what he had written. His thoughts on pretzels begin from a reverse point than what we are used to here as we many times discuss then stupid and hilarious aspect of such things as eating tacos incorrectly. Jae says he did not want her to pretzel. Instead he wanted her to UN-pretzel. He thinks she became too much like him, tried too hard to please him, tried to give him things he did not want but that she thought he wanted, she made him the focus of her life instead of having a life of her own outside of her position as his wife.
When they got together they were both very active, social people. They both had dreams, hopes, and desires. Ex-wife had a drop dead figure even after the first 2 kids. She was tiny in height and thin in build, dark hair, and as Jae says "eyes like a Hershey's Kiss, and smiled all the time. She was always cooking new dishes and having friends over for potlucks, card games, and to celebrate the holidays. She was so interested in caring for animals, raised some award winning dogs, took in injured creatures, bred fish, and raised exotic birds. She laughed all the time.
Over time she changed. She gave up her dreams to work with animals. She refused to go out socially. She refused to even go to his work Christmas party when he got a $5,000 award for safety and innovation. She gained 40 pounds and quit cooking. Jae bought her the dogs so they could go for walks together but she refused. She said her legs hurt too much. She refused to look for a house to buy. She said it was too much responsibility and work. She got to the point she would not go out to grocery shop or to the laundry. She rarely let the kids leave the house except to go to school. She gave up reading and going to the movies. She would sit on her couch for hours a day watching soap operas and refuse to even answer the phone for fear that she would miss something on one of them. She suddenly mimicked his thoughts even though before they had always had lively political discussions.
Then she got pregnant with their youngest child. She did not quit smoking as she had done before. She rarely went to the doctor appointments. She did not decorate a room or buy new baby things. She just sat on the couch drinking Pepsi and smoking cigarettes. When she had the baby, she was premature and very tiny with lots of health problems. She spent 10 weeks + in ICU. Ex-wife went to the hospital a total of once a week for the ten weeks. Jae was there daily for hours to feed her, hold her, and talk to her. Ex-wife told me she had two kids at home that needed her and she did not have time to take the kids to a babysitter and sit at the hospital. The hospital even had a counselor and the Department of Children and Families look into the situation before they would allow the baby to go home.
About a year later, I remember her saying to Jae, “I don’t give a d*mn what you do so long as you bring home my money, my case of Pepsi and my carton of cigarettes. And the TV better work.”
Once the kids were in school, he asked her to get a job, just something part-time to get her out of the house. It was not for the money. She worked for a total of 4 hours the first time and walked out saying it was too hard. (She checked out books for people at the library.) Then she decided she just did not like people. Then it was that her kids needed her. Jae took her to a volunteer session at the local animal shelter because she said she was interested in doing that. She refused to volunteer there as it broke all her fingernails. He paid $20,000 for her to go to tech school and she never went nor told him that she had changed her mind and not gone. He offered her tickets for a cruise or to see her sister. She said she could not be away from home and her shows that long.
Jae asked her to just see a doctor, get out of the house, do something with him, just talk to him. She responded, “What makes you think I want to talk to you?”
In his words, she pretzeled herself into putting him first for many years. “She gave up herself because she thought I wanted her to be the perfect Mrs. Cleaver type wife. She didn’t remember I had fallen in love with her when she had plans and dreams. When I could give her those things she refused them. Then she turned herself into me, agreeing with me on everything. She had no thoughts of her own. I used to love talking with her. Then, she closed herself off from the world, wouldn’t even read the newspaper or watch the news with me. We had nothing to talk about. I didn’t know where my wife had gone. I failed at taking care of her and as a husband. Our depression fed off each others’ depression. Then I went into h*ll and dragged her and my kids right along with me.”
In hindsight I wonder if she did not have post-partum depression after the second child and was only made worse by the third pregnancy. Incidentally, Ex-wife still sits on the couch all day drinking Pepsi and smoking. She is currently p*ssed off because she will have to drive their youngest child to school 3 days a week. She has called Jae about that 4 times since Thursday when she found out I could not do it and he could not as he is at work during that time. She has been turned down for disability compensation for the final time, and is moving for the 15th time since she and Jae split. He will be helping her move to a new apartment this weekend. Personally I think she is having the beginnings of her own MLC. She has been hanging out with her daughter's friends, letting them have band practice at her house, and now leaves messages on my phone from "the cool mom." She has also started wearing skinny jeans and half shirts as well as listening to rap music. She called Jae one day to tell him it was now time for her to have a life and that he better get used to it.
But none of this excuses Jae's magnificent downward spiral. He coped poorly, reacted in anger instead of appropriately, was a complete *ss much of the time, broke the law frequently, and blew his family's world apart instead of acting like a strong man. He was a selfish nasty bast*rd who is now paying for his actions, but is becoming a caring, wonderfully sweet, gentle, understanding man. As many of you noted, the process takes much longer than described in many cases.
Jae says that he is responsible for the length of his crisis ultimately.
“I don’t know why exactly. I felt like I was waiting for something, waiting for her to act, waiting for some change so I could come home. I went through periods I knew I wanted to go home but just couldn’t. I would check up on her, see what she was doing, what was happening. Most times she never even knew. Once I was outside her apartment, thinking whether I should go in or not. Then I heard her start screaming at her boyfriend and saw his clothes fly out the door. I left-ran really. It scared the sh*t out of me. She was always just like I left her. ”
I also asked him why he thought he was bad so long, fogged in like he says, and how that was related to ex-wife and what she did. Jae says now that he had a lot of things to work through that he was hiding from. (Some of you that have read my thread know that ex-wife had no boundaries as to Jae, his interaction with the kids or her. She let him stay at her and her boyfriend’s place whenever he wanted, allowed him in the house even when he was drunk or/and under the influence of drugs, and took a couple years to even file for child support and divorce. He disrespected her in words, language, and behavior. She put up with that.) He said firmly that if ex-wife had not allowed him to walk all over her, to push her around, he would have been required to act in a more respectful way or go away. That I believe, as that is how I and many, many others dealt with him at the time. He also says he knew because of that, that she would take him back at any time. He twisted that in his little reptile brain to mean that he could continue doing anything he wanted for as long as he wanted. If she was still the same every time he checked on her, than nothing had changed and he could go home whenever he wanted. She never moved from the shelf where he had left her.
Good afternoon xyzcf. I don’t recall that we have spoken before, so I thank you for your time and comments. I agree with you quite heartily that the length of time is indeed much more than as described or expected. The forever story is beautiful and inspirational. Excellent point concerning the manic in our lifestyle as well as theirs. I agree wholeheartedly that the work is for ourselves and some level of contact at times can be helpful in many cases, as well as the observation about the internal clock. To clarify my earlier comments, it is my opinion that there are unintended consequences to all major actions. One of the unintended consequences of the LBS doing the work on themselves for themselves is that in some, perhaps many of the cases, the MLC partner notices. In noticing, it can shake up the MLC partner. They react, examine, and perhaps have to grow just to keep up or choose to fall by the wayside. It calls into question the notions they have in their heads about us. Reality shifts, but yes, in tiny incremental ways.
Jae had no significant event to shock him. The final draw back to town was a milestone birthday for his youngest child. Still he managed to do that drunk and get incarcerated on his way back here, but no shock that awakened him. Just one day he woke up and did not like who he had become.
paradigmshift stated, “In Jae's case, it seems many other men were able to pick up where he failed and he knows it.” True, many other men picked up where he failed. He is good friends with the man she currently resides with and they do many social things together including going to sporting events, hunting, fishing, and car races. Jae feels no ill will to ex-wife’s boyfriend and has thanked him for helping to take care of her and the kids when he went off into space. Jae’s ex-wife states that almost any man with a paycheck would do as long as he let her run the house, stay home and not have to work, and he paid all the bills. A couple weeks ago when I took her out kicking and screaming for a drink, she told me, the one additional benefit to the guy she is with now is that she does not have to have sex with him often as he drinks a lot more now than he did in the beginning.
Moment, I guess we all have our positions on the whole MLC journey, all have different types of MLC experiences that shade our views, and each situation is the same and different. Only you know your J and his motives/personality. Just as I know Jae's. Interpretations of their writings will vary therefore. I do think it is interesting the different takes each of the two has on it. Incidentally, Jae is not mad at his wife. That is why he has spent the last year rebuilding a relationship with her and why I say they would be back together but for.
Best to you all! I shall now return to my own sandbox as I fear I have spoken too much, and for that I apologize.
-
Thank you for posting LP, your thoughts and Jae's are fascinating. I think you have been very respectful and I have really enjoyed reading it.
-
Now what Superdog said, is interesting and makes me wonder.
My H went to my therapist once since BD (but then got angry with a comment that the therapist said to him, so no more therapy for him I guess!), and said that he feels that "things started to change two years ago". That is when our second daughter was born and I kind of got "empowered" because it was totally different birth experience than with our first D. I think there I started some kind of, albeit mild, road to growth. It is also true that since then, he started to grow increasingly irritated with macho-like comments and arrogance that was new to him - he used to be the sensitive, humble and mature man. True is also that it is two years ago when his work-related stress and feelings of failure started to grow, and it was this spring when he faced the worst.
The point is that at BD when I started my therapy, the therapist kept telling me that H had too "huge" image of me. Like as if he did not feel somehow competent with me. I do not understand well what this means and actually I felt a bit hurt by this as well. For example, after BP he wanted to give me a book, and then wrote in the first page a description of me, which supposed to have been nice, but it was a description almost like I was not human being: "the perfect mother, the perfect woman, the academic, the in-depth thinker...." - but no word "wife" added. I showed it to my therapist and she said that it is clear how he sees me: Like somebody who makes him tiny. In addition, he had eliminated all the "sweet" things about me, just highlighting a person that would be just rational and without emotions. But it was clear it was his current reading of me, albeit leaving the question: Why to abandon a wife who seems so "perfect" for you? And how come he has come to view me like that? During the past two years it is rather that I have learnt to be more humble - and he vice versa but his description of me sounds on the contrary.
At the moment, his attitude shifts from despise towards my more spiritual change or path: he seems to hate any kind of reference to self-reflection and deeper thoughts, which just adds to his macho-behaviour and opinions. In that sense, it would seem that we are on opposite paths of life and occasionally he just wants to highlight that. Then again he shifts into over-pushing me towards this path of mine, supposedly hoping that I would get on with my life so that he would feel less guilty and/or perhaps I would take the decisions for him.
So back to Superdog's comment: I wonder if my own personal growth during the past couple of years, combided with his struggles and problems, have intensified his crisis...?! Perhaps it can also feel threatening how your couple moves onward if you feel stuck yourself. Just wondering. Any opinions?
Kenai.
-
I have been thinking about that too, Kenai.
I was with my guy from when he was 23 to when he was almost 33, and he didn't move on in life at all. Working till 6 on construction sites, going home to his parents', watching tv, showering, then either band practice or coming to see me or skyping with me when I was abroad, going out to get drunk on saturday and sleeping all sunday. He only moved out a year ago when I offered him my apartment where he could stay for free as I was abroad. He kept living like that, except he went grocery shopping. Kept living like that after I moved in, too.
And even tho he lives alone now and has OW, I bet my life he's still living like that.
As for me... I lived alone in London for years. Graduated university with top grades in a foreign country. Started a writing career. Did internships. Travelled around the world. Met tons of new people. I'm smart and well travelled and like to talk about cultural stuff, go to museums and theatre etc. He's a small town boy who likes videogames and getting drunk on Saturday.
I have a few friends telling me that as long as I was away, he could shine with reflected light showing off how great his gf was, but that as soon as I moved in I was just highlighting that he was still stuck and had done nothing with his life, and so he had to leave - and leave making as much damage as possible trying to destroy me.
He often told me I was better than him in everything and he didn't deserve me. He actually wrote the same thing to me in a text after I found out about his cheating. Funny because I used to feel the same about him, but that pushed me to adore him and value having him with me, not to go looking for OM!
Then again, what was I supposed to do, not grow and not build my career so I wouldn't make him feel bad about himself? I adored him, worshipped him, and he is the one person in the world who knows exactly how insecure I am, how low my self esteem can be. In fact I even wondered whether it was the opposite, whether he found me unworthy somehow, boring and stupid... but hey. He has tried his best to destroy my self esteem and it's actually having the opposite effect. I don't need to beg for his validation anymore, now I know what I'm worth!
-
You are very young Dagolark. You will be able to recover, and twenty years from now you will be a success, and he will be a small time loser.
-
So back to Superdog's comment: I wonder if my own personal growth during the past couple of years, combided with his struggles and problems, have intensified his crisis...?!
I, too, have wondered about this. I was always been the one doing things and trying to improve my self while H just stared at the computer day in and day out. I put myself through school while working full-time - I graduated at age 40! H never finished HS (got his GED), tried a couple semesters of college - didn't see it through. I have moved forward in our time together and I can't say that H has done anything ???
-
Ok so now we are back to somehow this is due to something the LBSer did or did not do. We were too good , we were not good enough.
I still believe that their MLC would have happened no matter what we did, who we were or really anything that had to do with us
This is their crisis, their issue and we did not push them into their crisis. We did nothing to cause them to go into crisis no more than if they had cancer could we be held responsible for them becoming ill.
As for the LBser doing the work they have to do....I see that as being able to survive a catastrophic event that occurred in our life. The rebuilding comes from the tsunami that rocked our world, not because we need to change because they had a crisis.
-
thank you Moment, this was very helpful in understanding the stages of MlC but it's also very sad.
I found your posts because xyzcf sent them to me as a reply to my post about my doubts on MLC as a true crisis. Anyway, I just wanted to say thank you. I've started meditating about a month ago and it's not a walk in the park for now. I'm doing my best to get through the pain. Today is my wedding anniversary with H. It all just seems like a dream now...like it actually never happened. Sigh :( only the memories remain.
Sending you (((hugs))) SW :-*
-
LP,
Wow, that clarification made a whole lot of difference. To be honest, their situation is somewhat similar to mine but maybe the triggers are different. My ex never really connected deeply with me on an intellectual or emotional level. When I tried to help him in his business I was brushed off, when I gave my opinion during conversations, I was dissed if I did not agree with him. We did not have the same dreams and goals. For years I was frustrated and depressed. I prayed for him to change. I prayed that he would truly love me because I felt he didn't. He cared for me, financially and by being around when I needed his help as a man. There's a difference. Jae might notice that in his ex-wife's behaviour. Something happened to her so that she now views men as merely a source of financially support. No love involved. Less sex the better.
6th year into our relationship I was estranged from my parents. The ex was starting to do well in his business so I requested for a year off work. Unfortunately I moved into a new apartment where I was tortured 24/7 for the next 3 years by a schizophrenic neighbour and nobody could do anything about it. I was under so much stress I suffered from anxiety and derealisation and severe PTSD for 6 months after I managed to finally sell the house. Those 3 years led to increased quarrelling between me and the ex. I felt the only thing good left in my life was, at least I didn't have to work. I wouldn't have been able to cope with it. I started giving in to whatever 'abuse' the ex dished out just to avoid confrontation. The less talk, the better it seemed. Sounds familiar? As long as he brings in the money. I relied on food and the internet to fill the black hole. Sounds familiar? Depression? Definitely. In essence, I was in my own crisis, seeing no happy future ahead. Just hoping the ex would make it and my life would get better. What else could he have given me?
After I sold the house I decided to move abroad for 18 months. I thought that would give the ex the space he wanted and for me to get a 'new' life. Unfortunately, the quarrels did not stop. Then BD.
But as opposed to Jae's wife, I am getting a life. I feel as if a weight has been lifted from my shoulders now that he is gone. And nope, no man to take care of me so I guess that makes a difference. Im fact, I have a phobia of him coming back before I have become fully independent. There's so much I want to do that he would have criticised or at the very least, given no moral support.
-
Well said xyzcf! I think it is so easy to get back to the circling thought of what LBS could have done/did/was not doing, especially when the blame of the MLCer on us. I also go back and forth with these thoughts because suddenly I start wondering if it is a MLC at all but he just somehow fell out of love, or something, and then you go through the movie again and again... Although most of the time I end up with the same eventual thought about HIS CRISIS, ie. some kind of depression, dis-ease I cannot help.
Tsunami... Definitely it is! It is also sometimes difficult to see it here in the middle of the storm but... as they say, the night is the coldest just before the sunrise...
Kenai.
-
J also talks about his actions during replay but not much about the words he used to his wife. I know MLCer's memories are shot but do they really not remember the lying they do, the secretive planning and furtive behaviour, the coldness and silence, the angry, vicious words they use, the anger they show, the potential, as in some LBS's cases, for violence?
From a depression/mania point a view it makes sense they do not remember words and actions done during MLC. Mr J has no recollection of having being violent. He told me that he did not remembered it (and since he did not monstered when he said it, I know he was telling the truth), but if I said he had been violent, he believed me. The brain forget a lot, if not all, that has happened under certain situations.
Is there an ex MLCer who can remember that and help us understand?
Maybe one whose crisis was less severe? Really do not know.
I think these high energy, very reckless ones have the propensity to crash quicker ("quicker" being a relative term). With the really high energy, I believe one will see multiple OWs, alcohol, drug use, or manic spending. Maybe all!!! These very reckless behaviors can bring rock bottom sooner than lower energy mlcers.
That would depend what you call quicker. ::) We have plenty of truly manic high energy MLCers going full steam after 5, 6, 7, 8 or more years. One would think they would crash and burn quick, but some seem to never do.
They have many lessons to learn. And during replay they seem to learn nothing.
They learn zero during Replay. If they learned a thing they would not keep repeating the same thing over and over and over. They are in escape and avoid mode, self medicating with all sorts of stuff. No time to learn or thing and stop is not an option.
Besides all the bs of being controlling etc etc. that everyone gets, my h's complaint ultimately was that I had grown so much and become someone my h couldn't keep up with.
Your husband is right, we grow too much and become someone they cannot keep up with. And that, in my view, often leads the LBS to no longer want the MLCer in our lives. We are so much ahead of them that there is no space for a person that has not grown and changed.
Agree with xyzcf, we where this that and those. If we were those that and this they would still have their crisis. Nothing we could, or could have not, done would prevent their crisis.
-
He thinks she became too much like him, tried too hard to please him, tried to give him things he did not want but that she thought he wanted, she made him the focus of her life instead of having a life of her own outside of her position as his wife.
This as well. I tried too hard to please my ex, changed my goals and values 180 to be in sync with him, but I did that because we would otherwise be quarrelling all the time. I made him the focus of my life because I felt he did not accept me as I was. I started spending so much time trying to make him love and accept me and keep hitting brick walls that I had no time to 'get a life'. I did many things for him, which similar to Jae, he did not want. I took that as him not appreciating whatever I did for him. I tried everything and nothing I could give he appreciated. Cooking? Yup. Laundry? Yup. etc etc. I thought, well, there's nothing I can do for him to make him appreciate me then. He would never appreciate me or love me. And I gave up.
Before BD, my ex mentioned that he wished I was the person he first knew. Funny thing is, he never valued the person I was when I first met him. He wanted that person because it elevated his status, more so then anything else. I made him feel good. (He was in the dumps).
Also, the soap opera addiction is a form of escape into a fantasy world as the real world hurts and disappoints more than it satisfies. No energy or desire to do anything? Depression. A sense of hopelessness.
The wife not being interested in going to the award dinner? Well, my ex never let me get involved in his business. There were many things he did and decisions he made that he kept from me. I felt no connection to his successes.
The not wanting to take up the hobbies I once loved? Well, who has time for hobbies when my life was in such a mess.
I believe for Jae and his ex-wife it might now be a chicken-and-egg situation. Someone has to take the risk and make the first move or call it quits.
If the ex-wife finds that Jae hasn't 'changed' (I am not referring to pretzeling btw, but as a result of the better person he has become because of his crisis - I hope), she most probably would remain as she is unless she becomes enlightened on her own and decide to GAL regardless. He can choose to wait for her to come out of her crisis on her own (which he seems to be doing), or he can offer her a new and better relationship, and watch her become the woman he first fell in love with once again. Otherwise they may be just incompatible and have to figure out how to work around it or cut their losses.
Hope it helps.
-
They learn zero during Replay. If they learned a thing they would not keep repeating the same thing over and over and over. They are in escape and avoid mode, self medicating with all sorts of stuff. No time to learn or thing and stop is not an option.
That's it exactly as far as I am concerned. I see my H escaping and avoiding as the replay actions seem to change. One minute he's off to OW- next he's on his own - next he's working 12 hrs solid in his studio - all to avoid facing the reality of what he's done. I prefer to consider everything he does as escape and avoid and the sad fact is - that has always been his coping mechanism.
He couldn't face his father's death as a teenager and locked himself in his room, he became an alcoholic, he lived in a variety of places before having a nervous breakdown and his first GF who became his first wife "saved" him. (That may have been a QLC as H said not long after BD that the symptoms of his "feelings in his head" are the same but stronger and out of control)
He cheated on his first wife and when that marriage fell apart he bought a house to do up together and she filed for divorce. He has bought umpteen cars since I have known him, 2 caravans, 2 trailer tents, 2 planes, 2 boats (tried and failed 3 times to sail across the Atlantic) - all material things to make him "happy" to no avail.
I reckon my H has been in denial and a form of escape and avoid since he was 16 so that he can pretend his dad's death never happened. He feels guilt that he couldn't get his dad medical help in time. The last 27 years with him were always unpredictable but then again I thought I was ying and he was yang. It seemed to work.
Perhaps I had been a rescuer to his victim mentality all along and then MLC hits big time. Who knows?
I will not take any responsibility for his MLC; I will however take responsibility for my behaviours and attitudes before and after BD. I too had changed before BD and now, in hindsight, some of that was not good for me or for the R. Now I am changing again and I almost feel grateful that MLC has happened because I am so much more aware of what is good in me and what needs to go!
What H does is his concern now. I will just be the best me I can be.
-
I just wanted to thank LP and Moment for posting these snippets of information into the mind of a MLCer . It may be hard for us to hear some of the things that these men say but it for me it is incredibly helpful to understand some of the behaviour.
Callan
-
Paradi, my H told me the same thing before BD that he wanted the loving, caring, me he used to know. Never took it that I was a doormat for him back then. Guess that's what he actually missed.
I know my best friend says I got a back none n stood up to him n H didn't like it so that's why H left. Who knows though..just saying I could a wrote your post cause that was me.
-
Holdin,
Oh yes, the being a doormat. All previous gfs of his left after a few days or months. I think I broke the world record because I allowed myself to be miserable. That's why I think the ex will realise eventually what he has lost. A pity he won't be coming back to a doormat no more.
To add on to my previous post, the ex used to say to me: What have you contributed to the relationship? That left me speechless. I was devalued and made to feel useless. I read this somewhere:
"The more unkindly a wife is treated, the less attractive she becomes. She loses pride in herself. She develops a feeling of worthlessness. Of course it shows."
-
Yes it shows..for sure. I haven't ever been this big n when u feel lime $h!te n worthless you do what helps with the pain n for me that was eating. However I'm working out n trying to change that aspect also.
-
Paradi, my H told me the same thing before BD that he wanted the loving, caring, me he used to know.
H told me he wished we could go back to when we first met. And that he wished I was like that again. :o
I could have cared less if I dated him or not. I agreed to a first date by telling his sister "ok I guess I'll go to dinner with him I don't have anything else to do" LOL So really H you want me to be that way again?
-
That's funny. My h said the same thing. It took him months to ask me out and then he had to have his friend convince me because I didn't want to go. Made him make it a double date. I was dating someone else and only went so they would quit bugging me about it.
I could go back to being that girl but h surely couldn't keep up now. He barely kept up back then lol
-
Thank you PD for the following quote
"The more unkindly a wife is treated, the less attractive she becomes. She loses pride in herself. She develops a feeling of worthlessness. Of course it shows."
I am at my heaviest - i have never been this overweight - and my drug of choice is chocolate and carbohydrates.
I recently read that sugar uses the same receptor sites in the brain as heroine. If that is true then indirectly i am a heroine addict!!
Like any other addiction it's not so easy to overcome. I often think that while i am finding solace in sugar XH is finding solace in his own addictive behaviors. I guess we as human beings are all addicted to something.
I watched a movie "what the bleep do we know" (I recommend it to everyone) which showed that we are all addicted to something even if it's an emotional state. Each emotion we experience has a chemical for it called a peptide. So there are MOE's for sadness, victimization, anger etc. These Molecules of emotion (MOE) affect not only our brain but every cell in the body. Anyway apparently if as humans we experience a certain emotional state on a daily basis we are addicted to it and we create circumstances around us that will trigger that emotional state.
I guess emotional addiction is more difficult to identify within ourselves. Maybe that's why some of us turn to food, and other external forms of addiction. While the rest of us just recreate thoughts and behaviors that maintain our addiction to internal chemicals.
Take care
moment
-
This is fascinating moment, I will look up that movie. I have read about peptides but didn't really understand. I understand that through our thought processes, our replaying/fantasising about a traumatic situation we are reliving the event and thus creating the same emotional response, and a huge release of peptides. So, because our brains are addicted to the peptides we continually re think the same emotionally traumatic thoughts??? Is this about right???
eating lots of carbs and sugar also increases your guts production of serotonin, so the comfort of it is chemical and it makes sense.
This article might be interesting
http://www.scientificamerican.com/article/gut-second-brain/
-
To add on to my previous post, the ex used to say to me: What have you contributed to the relationship? That left me speechless. I was devalued and made to feel useless. I read this somewhere:
"The more unkindly a wife is treated, the less attractive she becomes. She loses pride in herself. She develops a feeling of worthlessness. Of course it shows."
Paragignshift, this strikes a cord for me. I've been wondering how I went from the confident strong woman I use to be to the person I had become with H. H use to say the same thing to me. I always felt useless in the marriage because I was in school and didn't work. I was always tired from dedicating hours to studying. I feel that Chinese medicine can be equal or even harder than studying western medicine because not only do we need to know most of western medicine but also need to understand a whole different culture and theory of Chinese medicine. By the end of the program I was exhausted and H was cheating with ow to make up for my lack of presence in the marriage. I was often too tired to cook or go out for fun so he cooked most nights or we went out to eat. He helped a lot but that came with a cost. He would always throw that "What do you do to contribute to this relationship?" I would try to find to answer that would show that I counted in the marriage but somehow I just didn't feel I contributed much so it would leave me speechless too. :(
A few months before BD I was becoming more conscious and paying a lot of attention to what I was feeling plus I had finished school and passed my Acupunture boards. I once told him. "I don't feel needed by you and it feels like I'm not valued in this relationship" Guess what he answered? "I don't need anyone" With an angry expression on his face. If that is really the case and he doesn't "need" anyone why did he need to have ow to make him feel admired and adored?...Ahhrr >:( At BD he told me that I don't adore him...I'm too clean, to neat and that I made his hoarder mom feel uncomfortable around me. ??? All the negative things he had never said to me came out of his mouth at BD and those are what stuck with me till now. I was so confused. One minute he was crying and the next he was bashing me.
I terribly miss the life I thought I had and I miss my little dog that he took with him to go live with alienator and her dog. Sometimes I feel that if I had just been more attentive when ow came to work with him maybe things would have gone differently. (I know she was after him) but than again if he wasn't in MLC he probably would have not done what he did?
Thank you for all your thoughts here and your sharing. It really helps to understand things better and see that most of our MLCers act in similar ways. My question: Could the MLcer's behavior b/f BD be a red flag to look out for a MLC?
(((hugs))) SW :-*
-
He would always throw that "What do you do to contribute to this relationship?" I would try to find to answer that would show that I counted in the marriage but somehow I just didn't feel I contributed much so it would leave me speechless too. :(
SW,
I think some of these negative things that are said at BD come from the alienator. She introduces some of these notions & reinforces any negative notions the MLCer already has. I believe this happened in my case. My H threw out the notion that I only stayed with him for financial security & that I didn't really love him. This was the farthest thing from the truth. While we were very comfortable, how much money my H made was never any factor for me. I managed our finances to the benefit of our family. This rang so false to me that I challenged these comments in our brief MC & H acted confused then & admitted that I had made valuable contributions to our family, despite currently not employed & that I had never had any interest in the status items that money could buy.
At BD he told me that I don't adore him...
Adoration is the job of an alienator, not an equal M partner. Yes, we can always show our partner appreciation, true admiration which is a two-way street. Not the fawning, false, manipulative approval & adoration of the alienator.
Sometimes I feel that if I had just been more attentive when ow came to work with him maybe things would have gone differently. (I know she was after him) but than again if he wasn't in MLC he probably would have not done what he did?
There is absolutely no excuse for infidelity. If it hadn't been her, it would have been someone else. I think some women have radar that hones them in on men with emotional problems & they begin to insinuate themselves into situations they have no business getting into. Unfortunately, an MLCer is completely vulnerable to the bag of tricks a manipulative alienator carries around.
Hugs,
HT
-
HT , I got the comment about not contributing financially . This was despite the fact that He had told me he would let me know if he needed me to contribute more . At BD I mentioned this and he just shrugged his shoulders .
Ironically he has hooked up with a woman who has huge debts !!!
Callan
-
I also got told that I didn't contribute enough financially. At BD I told him that I would help him with his debt. He said no, it was his problem and he'd fix it. He told me he and OW had already been discussing ways to make money. :o We were about to have an influx of people in the country for the Rugby World Cup and THEY had discussed renting out the van HE & I jointly owned to tourists to make some extra cash. ::)
She had recently moved here and had nothing except her car (not even any furniture). Now they have set up a business together. He contracts himself out as a Structural Engineer and she is the director of their business... and he can't see that its all about money for her?
I'm convinced she is in MLC too. I think in their very foggy MLC minds they both thought they were the answer to each other's prayers and they would become rich and find happiness together. ::) Three years on they share a run down bedsit and H's sporty MLC car is off the road and he can't afford to get it fixed.
-
Thank you ToughTimes
A very interesting article - guess i live through my gut ;).
In answer to your questions - my understanding is that the physical reaction to a molecule of emotion (MOE)- from secretion of the MOE from the hypothalamus (part of brain) to response - only lasts 90 seconds. What keeps the MOE in play and its constant secretion is our reoccurring thoughts. So our thoughts create the secretion of the MOE - we can change this by changing our thoughts hence mindful thinking practices and meditation.
For a really uplifting view of how our brain works another beautiful story is Dr Jill Bolte-Taylor's story.
http://www.ted.com/talks/jill_bolte_taylor_s_powerful_stroke_of_insight?language=en#
take care moment
-
I think those are just excuses they throw out, , forthe simple fact that in my case it's the total opposite and yet it happened anyway!
I have more money than x. We were living in my apartment, in fact I let him live there for free for almost a year before I moved in too... he had this thing that he had to buy a house because a man is supposed to own the house. Of course he can't afford one but after bd he was already talking of buying the first apartment he looked at! I have a career and he doesn't. In fact a few people told him this probably made him feel emasculated hence the need to switch to an inferior girl.
And I did adore him probably too much. Always starry eyed telling everyone and him how amazing he was..in fact I keep bouncing between maybe I neglected him somehow and no probably I adored and spoiled him too much. ..
Really, we can't win. Whatever they're lacking has got to be within themselves.
-
As for the LBser doing the work they have to do....I see that as being able to survive a catastrophic event that occurred in our life. The rebuilding comes from the tsunami that rocked our world, not because we need to change because they had a crisis.
Yes; the self-work is important for us to recover from the shock of the Bomb Drop, the Monster behavior, or discovery of an affair. We can learn empathy, patience, setting boundaries, and detachment.
I also see this time as a hidden opportunity.
People who are content with their life are rarely motivated to change things, even when their lives can be improved by doing so. And being disconnected from a MLCing spouse who has moved out is a good time to work on new habits and reconnect with parts of yourself you have neglected. Do you want to eat better? Get more exercise? Stop smoking? Start a new hobby? Pick up an old hobby? Now is an excellent time.
-
To keep the topic on the mind of an MLCer (sorry no criticism at those who may have put personal thread like comments on - myself included)
I have had three interactions with H today about S who is in meltdown at the mo.
The third was the most interesting albeit upsetting..
H has decided that he will go and see someone about his head. He said that he feels as though he is living in a permanent dichotic state where one moment he thinks or does one thing and the next he tries to negate it. He gave an example.. he said he had the "mad idea" of getting a motorbike and driving across America (we are in the UK) and yet he knows that would be a really stupid thing to do.
He said - his feelings are out of control and it frightens him because he knows what he should be doing.
He stated that he will see more than one person and this was the most telling he will only stick with the person who gives the "right advice"..
He said his brain wiring feels all wrong and twisted and that he doesn't understand why this has happened.
Just an interesting little moment.
-
Hi
Have just had a thought after reading an article about the meaning of life and what is the purpose of it. In staying with the mind of a MLCer who lets face it is living through an egoic mind that has become more dysfunctional than most.
Maybe this traumatic event that has blindsided us is to help us get clarity. Let's face it we are also living through our ego hence our own addictions (and maybe our MLCers are part of that addiction) but maybe just maybe our higher self needed us to take this path so we could become more conscious of the meaning and purpose of life. And maybe when we think we desire a re-connection to H that is not the path our soul wants to take........just food for thought.
take care moment
-
S&G
That is very interesting , I know when my H had a breakdown in front of me he kept banging his head on his hands he was so desperate to feel normal again . He just kept saying that he hated feeling like he did . It was actually very painful to watch . I cannot even begin to imagine how he felt .
Callan
-
This is going back a few posts to the comments about the mlcer wanting the 'spouse they fell in love with/first met etc'. My interpretation of that is the mlcer wants the mlcer back i.e. when they loved themselves & were young with a bright future. Nothing to do with the lbs--I wouldn't want to be the girl he met--an uneducated, self-centred girl--no way!
On weight: MyFitnessPal.com. Free. Really all this site does is track your calories but, it works. Slow, steady weight loss. If you do the exercise you have PLENTY to eat. :) Except sweets. :(
-
That's a good point Calamity as it was probably projection.
As Africa as the weight..I have MFP and dint use it often...its like I'm raring to go n use it then nope, don't use it. Just a funk I think.
-
This is going back a few posts to the comments about the mlcer wanting the 'spouse they fell in love with/first met etc'. My interpretation of that is the mlcer wants the mlcer back i.e. when they loved themselves & were young with a bright future.
Bingo!
How many MLCers, including mine, find a younger girl who is a carbon copy of the LBS at the beginning of the relationship? The fantasy of 'starting over' has got nothing to do with the LBS, and everything to do with the MLCer, who wants to feel they still have all the options open and they can still do whatever they want with their future.
Some MLC input about that...
- My guy repeated a few times - 'it's too late anyway, what else am I going to do with my life, I'm already 33'. (33! Not 103!)...
- We were talking about end of life wishes and he refused to express his preference, didn't even want to think about it and changed the subject (fear of mortality)
- a lot of talk about 'forever' and basically how he was freaking out thinking his life course was 'set'
-
This is going back a few posts to the comments about the mlcer wanting the 'spouse they fell in love with/first met etc'. My interpretation of that is the mlcer wants the mlcer back i.e. when they loved themselves & were young with a bright future. Nothing to do with the lbs--
I think this theme is in the script :P. Mine said at BD that he & the OW were a team, like we had been a team when we were first married :o :-\ :P .
He traded nearly 40 years of teamwork for someone he met on the computer :P .
I wouldn't want to be the girl he met--an uneducated, self-centred girl--no way!
And I can't imagine that that is what they want either. What they want is some sort of f'ed fantasy woman.
-
Quote from XYZCF
I still believe that their MLC would have happened no matter what we did, who we were or really anything that had to do with us
This is their crisis, their issue and we did not push them into their crisis. We did nothing to cause them to go into crisis no more than if they had cancer could we be held responsible for them becoming ill.
As for the LBser doing the work they have to do....I see that as being able to survive a catastrophic event that occurred in our life. The rebuilding comes from the tsunami that rocked our world, not because we need to change because they had a crisis.
I couldn't agree with this more!! The only thing the work I am doing on ME that has to do with HIM is survival. Survival from the catastrophic event that rocked my world without warning is the PERFECT description. However now I realize that in many ways he gave me a gift. Instead of staying and making all of our lives a living hell (which believe me he has still done since leaving....until I ended that), he ran away. I remember a time reading the treads and being jealous....yes indeed JEALOUS of the LBS's who still had their MLC'er at home. I can shake my head at that now and know that was when I was crazy with grief. I honestly KNOW in my heart that for me, his running away was a blessing. It has enabled me to heal, and fix the broken pieces that he left me with. Yes there is a part of me that will be changed forever by this, but that is a good thing. The work I have done on me has been for me, and for my future. I cannot tell you how much it means to me to hear my Pastor tell me how much growth & healing he has seen in me in the past 6 1/2 months.
As for his crisis, no there is not a thing I could have done to prevent it or change it. His crisis is because of his FOO issues that he has held onto for his entire life. Only he can fix those, and until he does he will be an unhappy and searching man.
-
And this is the part where you come full circle and have to have compassion for the MLCer. Regardless of what any J, or Jae, or C, D, or E went through, what caused them to "wake up" if they ever do, or how severe their MLC was, there is no way they can EVER tell you what or why. We ALL have a dark side and at a time like that, you can be sure, there are many deeply buried triggers that are being expressed. Even those of us who have done substantial work and feel relatively whole, will ALWAYS have shame triggers. A person who knows me, or is really perceptive can still push my buttons if they stare too long at my thighs or target my mommy guilt. Not one of us is truly titanium.
Think about it, I can't even tell you why I chose the lunch I had. I should have had something healthier, but I didn't. I could have even chose something I would like more. It was not something I have never had before. It was fast, and easy, but WHY, ll, did you eat THAT for lunch today--no freaking idea. Why am I wearing this particular outfit, your guess... Why when I get off work am I going to go swim and not run? So how in the world do we REALLY think any person, ever will be able to tell you WHY and HOW they came to blow up their families? They clearly had a mental break...
So, as the LBS, what do you DO with that? Move on, and do what you have to do, wait it out, if you must, but recognize that no matter how long you wait, you will NEVER have real closure on what they did, or why. They will remember bits and pieces, and some of the story will be what they told people over and over during "that time." But the bottom line is that your spouse saw fit to leave, in a horribly damaging and painful way--for all concerned.
And the post and the stories were so valuable to me for confirming that. So, again, it comes back to YOU, and to me. I came here to tell my few remaining old-time forum friends that I got engaged. And I admit, saying yes was PAINFUL. Cutting that last tie to any "stand" meant several tear-filled nights. But, for me, I always knew that after had the audacity to leave the WAY he did, I knew I was not built for that kind of forgiveness, or for waiting. But still, the tiny secret stander believed that one day he would "wake up," realize he made a horrible mistake and come back, ready to make everything right. But these posts confirmed that it’s not that easy. I have a wonderful man now, and no, that’s not easy, either. We have kid issues and other stuff—but I do know that he is stable in a way my ex never was. His wife put him through hell, and like me, and all of us, he still never gave up. But she walked away. It’s awkward for all our kids, but less awkward than it would ever be for ALL of us, me, my kids, our families, our friends, to completely forgive him for launching a nuclear missile on our life.
It doesn’t really matter what they say, all those years after—they will still never know. Just like you have no freaking idea why you decided to take that elevator and not the other one, went to that grocery store, bought that flavor ice cream, or why you were a little rude to that clerk, but nice to the next one? The only thing you can EVER know is how you feel and what you want to do with it. Love and light, ll
-
LisaLives, You are amazing and congratulations. I wish you many, many years of love and happiness!
-
Congratulations LisaLives. Wishing you wonderful new memories and happiness.
Going back to S&D's and Callan's comments about their H's awareness that something isn't right in their heads. Three years before BD when I threw H out for taking out yet another credit card behind my back and maxing it out. When asked by his D (6 at the time) why he hadn't come to see her or phone her he said to her something isn't right in my head. In hindsight this was a very revealing comment. He obviously knew something wasn't right inside his head way before BD.
-
Mine also said that when he left and he is now in therapy - he chose to go, I didn't even know about it - and he says now that he wants to come home but not until his head is right and that it's a slow process.
-
The third was the most interesting albeit upsetting..
H has decided that he will go and see someone about his head. He said that he feels as though he is living in a permanent dichotic state where one moment he thinks or does one thing and the next he tries to negate it. He gave an example.. he said he had the "mad idea" of getting a motorbike and driving across America (we are in the UK) and yet he knows that would be a really stupid thing to do.
He said - his feelings are out of control and it frightens him because he knows what he should be doing.
He stated that he will see more than one person and this was the most telling he will only stick with the person who gives the "right advice"..
He said his brain wiring feels all wrong and twisted and that he doesn't understand why this has happened.
Just an interesting little moment.
Going back to S&D's and Callan's comments about their H's awareness that something isn't right in their heads. Three years before BD when I threw H out for taking out yet another credit card behind my back and maxing it out. When asked by his D (6 at the time) why he hadn't come to see her or phone her he said to her something isn't right in my head. In hindsight this was a very revealing comment. He obviously knew something wasn't right inside his head way before BD.
S&D and the Lighthouse, my H has also often spoken of something not being right in his head too.
Great that your H is actively seeking help for it S&D.
-
What is a dichotic state? *scratches head* Is it like bipolar?
-
Dichotic from dichotomy. Two things at the same time but causing a deep dilemma in emotional/moral or legal terms. There is no easy answer to either and each has its own merits and weaknesses. Ultimately the concluding choice is not made based upon logic but preference.
-
Hi LisaLives
Congrats i wish you happiness. And you are so right none of us know why we make the decisions we make and that also goes for the MLCer.
We need to find acceptance that we will never know and become comfortable living with the uncertainties of life.
take care moment
-
Good Grief. (In reference to a few posts back before LisaLives post)
I don't believe I or anyone said we as LBS's needed to change because the MLC spouse had a crisis. It is an opportunity for us to examine ourselves that perhaps we would not or may not have had the opportunity to do before. If you are happy with yourself, all your actions, words, behaviors, stay the same.
Neither did I ever say we could have prevented the crisis. (Basic 101 that we did not break it, can't fix it.)
Neither did I say we could shorten their crisis in an overall sense. What I did say is that we do not have to have any part in lengthening the process or making it harder on them. Karma and God, a higher power, will ensure that they are punished enough. Heavens, the MLC alone is punishment enough from what I have seen. Imagine the h*ll of having squirrels in your head, constantly changing confused thoughts that never seem to stop! We do the work on ourselves, let them see us moving ahead or not. That is the part they are responsible for-their choices. We can send positive ripples out into the world, or negative ripples, but just by existing the ripples are sent. How they choose to react to the ripples or not, that is also their choice.
Neither did I say something we did triggered it-their crisis. (Basic 101) But sometimes things come together to make the perfect storm, called life events. How each of us deals with those events is our own responsibility, but that does not negate the relevance of the events. It is a starting point to see where issues lay especially for those who are just beginning the journey. New posters often look back and try to figure out when the crisis began and the triggers.
Neither did I say GAL was to be done for the benefit of the MLC person. (Again, Basic 101 that I did not think had to be highlighted in my comment.) Yes, the work is a survival mechanism to live through the tsunami primarily but there can be unintended consequences. Some of the unintended consequences are that as the MLC person undergoes a crisis transition, it can and perhaps often times triggers a midlife transition in the LBS. I believe it was Heart's Blessing that detailed this in her writings. Just as a wave crashing against a shore causes erosions to the shoreline or rocks and then other ripples in the water. Changes occur in us, our families, friends, lives, jobs. As we change, others have to change how they interact with us. The old way no longer achieves desired results perhaps. It is what various parts of the approach here detail and teach us. (For example, change how we react to monster, and get different result.) So if it works one way, than why not in the reverse direction?
And I am not looking to blame anyone so there is no circular reasoning per se although it is circular in that a relationship is by definition a circular construct. Least of all do I blame any of the spouses who have lived through this any more than I blame myself. It is a beginning phase many of us go through.-the what did I do wrong to cause him/her to not love me anymore? But I had to realize I was not a perfect person either. I refuse to lay all the blame on another as I can only control myself and judge myself. For me it is part of healing to forgive and have compassion for a MLC person, as well as to rationally look at what I contributed to the events. They (MLC people) have enough to deal with, without adding criticism or guilt from me. I will not be the victim of the MLC person in my life, either, which is what I was when I continued to be mad, continued to spin from his nonsense, and continued to blame him solely for the situation. It was nothing but a waste of my time and my life. I took responsibility and owned my mistakes. (This is not to say that any of the mistakes justified what they do to us, but that the mistakes happened as I am only human, and for those I am sorry.) You have no idea the weight of the guilt I have seen in these people's hearts and souls. And if there is the SLIGHTEST chance that Genius' crisis, (like Jae's and others here who I have spoken with on the tele), could be extended one minute in h*ll because he is waiting for me to forgive him or do anything else, I choose not to stand in the way even though I have grown too much and there is too much water under the bridge to want him back in my life. The h*ll I have SEEN the MLC person go through is horrendous. Depression is a contagious thing and feeds off others and itself.
If you don't believe we have an impact on them, to each his own. Different opinions are what makes this board a great place to come to vent and share, to postulate theories, to look for answers and strength. But then how do you explain the part of HS in which we are to be the lighthouse? With no lighthouse, is the ship at sea likely not lost in the fog for longer than if the lighthouse is spotted to lead them safely to shore? (Yes, the ship captain has the choice to follow the light or not.) How do you explain the checking up on us that some of them do? How do you explain some returning after 15 years+ as Dreamer's relative did? Perhaps they know when we are ready and able to handle the nightmare part should they wish to return? Was this why Jae choose to go through that section in my home instead of at ex-wife's home where he was welcome to come? So he could return to her a more whole person? I don't know. Did he think I was strong enough to handle his devils? Absolutely. Was I strong enough before Genius's MLC to handle Jae's devils? Absolutely not. God gives us nothing we cannot handle I suppose, and has his reasons for all that happens. Some will return, some will want to return and fail to do so, some will stay lost. But we soldier on, hopefully better people for having this journey thrust upon us. And I know I will never have definitive answers to these questions, but for me, the theory is interesting. If it does not apply to your MLC spouse, so be it. After all, they are all different in some ways as our experiences here are the same and yet also different.
It is my opinion and sincerest hope that God does not/will not allow Genius to return to my life in any form until I have done the work and become strong enough with His help to handle any situation that arises. If that never happens (his return) I can accept that. I cannot express to you in words the nightmare the end stages are for some of these people, the hardcore, long timers of which I seem to have been blessed with 2, but I have seen what I believe to be the worst of the worst with Jae. How differently I would have reacted if it were my husband, and that would have been just exactly the wrong way to do it.
The MLC person is responsible for themselves, their actions, their behaviors, their words. I believe that is abundantly clear in my threads re my actions with Jae.
Again, Basis 101-The MLC person would have had the crisis whether we as LBS's were perfect spouses in every way. I would imagine that there are a variety of reasons at the base of each one's crisis FOO, addictions, personality disorders and mental issues, poor coping skills, immorality issues, fear, various weaknesses etc. as well as external things that happen in average daily lives including familial deaths, births, job losses, job promotions, empty nests, money problems, retirement. Yes, Jae would have had this crisis as would my Genius. But I know before I worked on myself that I said and did some things that were very harmful, hateful, and nasty. Based on my experience with Jae, some of those things have the potential to hold things up in the healing phase should he ever get there. For those things I feel remorse and I see the same remorse in Jae and his ex-wife.
I went through the stages that so many do when they first come here-looking for quick answers, believing my spouse would go through quickly, crying jags, begging, arguing, thinking he would respond to rational arguments, hiding from the world, snooping, thinking my situation was dramatically different from the others here, getting mad, hurling insults because I was hurt, the disbelief that this could be happening, the depression. Then I moved on and did the work. It is how it worked for me, perhaps for you, perhaps not.
I realized that I WAS NOT a perfect person. I had done some things wrong in the relationship. I was not the person who I wanted to be. I did not like some of the behavior patterns in my relationship. I was not happy either. I assumed that he was going to be there forever. I had made him my world, my knight in shining armour, and when he failed to live up to that I was angry and hurt and disappointed. I kept rose coloured glasses on. I assumed we had the same goals and understanding of the future. I was angry and had no compassion for him. I had to face and accept and even embrace that there were things I did not like about myself and my life. So I made a list of issues, and took concrete steps to deal with those things. Each month I have a small list from the larger list of issues and goals that I work on, new things I want to try, etc.
Those are the things I choose to work on changing and am still doing so as we are all works in progress.
I would never have done that but for Genius having a crisis. I believe that I am a better person hopefully because he had the crisis.
Jae's ex does not wish to change anything about herself even though she has expressed to me many times that she is very unhappy, that there has to be more to life than this, that she is scared to change anything, that she is still mad at him, that she still wants him to pay for what he did to her, that she still loves him, that her life is a mess, that she purposely pushes his buttons to see if he will fall back into crisis, that until she is certain he is a whole man she is not interested in working on herself, that she is angry that he has gotten his life together, that she liked it better when he was sick because she looked like the one who had it together, that she still does not know who she is especially now that she is not the ex-wife of an actively crazy person. I understand her fear, her mistrust of him, and that she is torn because she still loves him, and is likely depressed also. I hope for her to have happiness at some point in the future but she appears to me to be stuck just as he was stuck.
I only hope we all come out of this happy healthy people at peace with the world.
Best to you all! I am leaving for my holiday weekend soon and wish you all a safe and happy weekend.
-
I just read this and the previous thread. Very interesting points of view. Special thanks to moment and lawprofessor!
-
Lord! I was asked to read this thread... perhaps it was penance. (joking) It's really long.
These are my opinions drawn from my experience which isn't nearly as lengthy as any folks in this thread...
I personally feel that the MLC tag is really generic that covers a potpourri of Spousal types.
You have the Hedonist who's going out with lots of OW... addicted to whatever.
You have me who has, to his dismay, lost a major communication channel to my Mother and substituted it with a EA with an OW (older) instead of my wife.
The LBS may have influencing factors on the MLC... I've stated in past that although I wouldn't admit it, I believe that I remember every interaction with my ex over the last two years (there weren't many). When we Separated, I ran. It was emotionally painful for me to interact with her. And, judging from what I observed in her, the same was true as well.
What did I do? I danced... That was and to some degree still is was my addiction. I'm broadening my pursuits into other areas to become better balanced.
I agree with a lot of what HeartTattoo and LawProfessor state about MLC.
I am responsible for my actions and what I did and I wouldn't wish this to happen to anyone.
Now, unfortunately, I'm late to work... My therapist stated to me that people tend to go through seasons of trying times. I'm in one of those seasons and work is part of it. Not asking for empathy or pity. It's just a fact. I'm fortunate to have a job... that I used to love.
-fi
-
When we Separated, I ran. It was emotionally painful for me to interact with her. And, judging from what I observed in her, the same was true as well.
Did you expect it not to be painful? Did you expect it was not painful to your wife? What have you done/felt if you saw it was not painful to your wife? Would you feel relieved or angry that she was not upset with the situation? If she was not upset with the situation would you have not run?
I always have troubles understanding why the MLCer, who inflicts so much pain upon others runs when they see the pain they have inflicted. Does the MCLer truly thinks their actions will not have consequences? That their spouses, children, friends would not be hurt?
It is like the MLCer wants to do whatever they want to do and nothing/no one should be in pain because of it.
-
WOW. Thanks for the insight.
-
I always have troubles understanding why the MLCer, who inflicts so much pain upon others runs when they see the pain they have inflicted. Does the MCLer truly thinks their actions will not have consequences? That their spouses, children, friends would not be hurt?
It is like the MLCer wants to do whatever they want to do and nothing/no one should be in pain because of it.
This is exactly what the MLCer thinks! My H thinks that I should not be hurt because he is following his path - I have told him that it is not the journey that causes me pain it is the choices he has made. There are right and wrong ways of doing things but he is only concerned with his wants/needs - his way!
-
Quote from: Anjae on Today at 00:16:54
I always have troubles understanding why the MLCer, who inflicts so much pain upon others runs when they see the pain they have inflicted. Does the MCLer truly thinks their actions will not have consequences? That their spouses, children, friends would not be hurt?
It is like the MLCer wants to do whatever they want to do and nothing/no one should be in pain because of it.
This is exactly what the MLCer thinks! My H thinks that I should not be hurt because he is following his path - I have told him that it is not the journey that causes me pain it is the choices he has made. There are right and wrong ways of doing things but he is only concerned with his wants/needs - his way!
Depression is an ugly thing and my D24 made something very clear to me about her depression (which she has had since 16 - she ran away from home from then until about 18/19 and got involved in alcohol, drugs etc...). She told me:-
When you are depressed you run. You never want to be where you are. You want to be somewhere else and when you get there you want to be somewhere else again.
You know that others are hurting by your actions and feel utterly worthless that you have caused that pain but, because you believe in your low self esteemed state, they think of you as worthless, you don't understand why they would get so upset. The skills of empathy for others gets warped or in some cases non existent as it easier to pretend that the hurt is their problem.
When you are depressed you think very badly of yourself and you know that your feelings are wrong but they are there and you don't know or choose not to know how to address them in a logical, empathic way.
I would hate to generalise about MLCers; depression hits them all differently. Nevertheless I think that some know they have hurt others and feel tremendous guilt which makes them run even more and some choose not to know or feel such low self worth that they behave in such a narcisstic and extreme way as an attempt to show high self worth in the hope of fooling everyone. It's as if that behaviour has to be their oxygen mask - a warped form of survival.
-
S&D you reminded me of a movie... Have you all seen Life as a House. I saw it when it came out. Little did I know it might foreshadow my life, but Kevin Kline plays a man whose wife probably had an MLC, but probably while he was having an MLT, which caused him to go into a full-blown dysthemic state and check out of life (It's what I wanted to avoid in my life!). Their teenage son is now into drugs and even prostitution and being an all around s@#$. I won't tell you the whole story, but at one point, he asks his son WHY, and he says "because I like how it feels not to feel."
And I think that about sums it up. If you can't find it within yourself to feel good, and your only alternative is to feel bad, which is what you feel about yourself, then you will do anything not to FEEL at all. That's call depression, anger turned inward, and it's what you have when you feel worthless, inside. I wish that for no one. Love and light, ll
-
Hi S & D,
Part of what you wrote really resonated with me about a depressed person not wanting to be where they are.
My H actually said to me that when he's home - he wants to be out and when he's out - he wants to be home. So that validates what your D was saying - thank you
X
-
Great post S&D . Depression is a horrible thing and I would not wish it on anyone . I was talking to a friend yesterday who I think has had low grade depression for many years . She is struggling at the moment , she knows that she is not easy to live with , she hates feeling like she does and she is trying to feel better but it not easy , she is very down on herself and can not see the point to life at the moment .
Callan
-
I think what is also extremely important for all LBSers to realise is that we are plunged into this dark world too.
For most of us it is reactive depression and that can last from a few weeks to a year. It's part of the grieving process.
For some of us, whilst it is a form of depression that does not plunge us into the same abyss as the MLCers, it is real and our instincts are to keep running too, to keep wishing for, to keep thinking negative self defeating thoughts. There are a few LBSers on here who I personally think are suffering from depression but don't want to admit it as they see it as a failure of their ability to deal with MLC.
I occasionally have difficulty doing things, concentrating for periods of time, even reading was a challenge, letting thoughts go, getting up and facing the morning, wishing the day would be over so that I can hide in bed.... I was diagnosed with reactive depression by my GP and thank God for my T as she gave me strategies to deal with this.
I think if we are all totally honest - we all recognise depression in ourselves and the feelings that accompany it as we have all experienced them. The challenge is that MLCers depression is very deep and very despairing and this is what is so soul destroying for the LBSer
-
Depression is an ugly thing and my D24 made something very clear to me about her depression (which she has had since 16 - she ran away from home from then until about 18/19 and got involved in alcohol, drugs etc...). She told me:-
When you are depressed you run. You never want to be where you are. You want to be somewhere else and when you get there you want to be somewhere else again.
You know that others are hurting by your actions and feel utterly worthless that you have caused that pain but, because you believe in your low self esteemed state, they think of you as worthless, you don't understand why they would get so upset. The skills of empathy for others gets warped or in some cases non existent as it easier to pretend that the hurt is their problem.
When you are depressed you think very badly of yourself and you know that your feelings are wrong but they are there and you don't know or choose not to know how to address them in a logical, empathic way.
This is very interesting. Thank you so much for sharing!
-
S&D
I agree that some people may be afraid to admit it , I am very open when I am talking to people and admit that I am still on medication for depression .
When I was talking to my friend she said , I feel bad talking to you and moaning because you are depressed as well . I said to her that the difference is that I know why I am depressed . I was not depressed before this . I can pinpoint why I feel like this and for me that makes it more manageable . If I had not idea why I was depressed I would really struggle . She sobbed and said that she hates the way she is , she either feels nothing or is hyper sensitive and thinks that people dislike her .
Callan
-
I occasionally have difficulty doing things, concentrating for periods of time, even reading was a challenge, letting thoughts go,
This made me crazy. I have finally finished a few books other than self-help ones lately so maybe I am approaching some semblance of normal. But there would be all these things that I wanted to do to pass the time, occupy my thoughts and GAL but I couldn't muster the concentration to do so!
I also think it would really help(and this goes back to the futile hope that people will get what we are going through) if we could be told it's ok to be depressed; that we should what we need to to work though it, as opposed to being expected to be over it after a few weeks b/c they are such jerks.
Thanks for both posts on depression S&D, very insightful.
-
I too still have difficulty reading which is something I always enjoyed previously.
I recently started taking some Chinese herbal remedies that my acupuncturist gave me as I was finding myself "hypervigilent" in that everything seemed to be a threat, I am still tired all the time even though I sleep 8-9 hours at night. These herbs actually have helped to allow me to feel more my normal self. She stressed that they helped with 3 things, to decrease the level of cortisol that my adrenals were producing and smooth out hormones...the third thing totally escapes me :) They calm me, but I still struggle with the daily sadness and I wonder when this situational depression of mine will ever cease?
The challenge is that MLCers depression is very deep and very despairing and this is what is so soul destroying for the LBSer
What your daughter described feels to me exactly what has been happening to my husband for 5 years++++ I know all the theory and even have a clinical background that should allow me to get this.
When I am with him, I still feel connected to him and lately I had wanted to stop all contact because it hurts me when he disappears again...so in a way, if I thought it would be better for me not to see him, how much more so must he feel because I know that when he is with me, he has to face what he has done, thus he stays away, but only for so long before his need to check in overtakes his need to run.
I think sometimes if he would only let me in, if he would only talk to me to break through this despair, but he never has...he cannot say anything at all. Which frightens me because his depression is so deep and his running so extreme that I often lose hope that anything can every change.
-
I take some herbal anti-stress stuff. And I take 5HTP at night to help me sleep and for depression. Both are all natural products and have helped me tremendously.
I often wonder if this grief and depression will ever end. With all the death and sickness over the last 7 years I cannot seem to get past one loss to get to the next. It is certainly hard work.
As for H, I can see in many ways why he runs. Its much easier to run than to face reality. I suppose we all do when the time is right and our minds can handle it. Or maybe we just get sick and tired of being sick and tired so we make a move. MLCer's run and LBS's stand and do the hard work.
-
I recently started taking some Chinese herbal remedies that my acupuncturist gave me as I was finding myself "hypervigilent" in that everything seemed to be a threat, I am still tired all the time even though I sleep 8-9 hours at night. These herbs actually have helped to allow me to feel more my normal self. She stressed that they helped with 3 things, to decrease the level of cortisol that my adrenals were producing and smooth out hormones...the third thing totally escapes me :) They calm me, but I still struggle with the daily sadness and I wonder when this situational depression of mine will ever cease?
These are exactly the benefits I take my regimen of supplements for (along with upping serotonin which balances my mood). I would greatly encourage all LBS who feel the need to seek help for the raw emotions and panic spiral this puts us in to seek this before pharmaceuticals - there are less risks of negative side effects, and the natural remedies don't 'mask' our feelings, they help retrain our bodies to do these things naturally so over time we will need them less (or not at all). It makes such a huge difference, and a solid commitment to our health is a wonderful gift we can give ourselves within this.
Thank you so much, S&D, for sharing your daughter's insights. It is so beautiful that she has overcome and is so reflective now, and I too see these things in my H. I truly hope someday he is able to turn to face the demons he feels are chasing him.
-
When you are depressed you run. You never want to be where you are. You want to be somewhere else and when you get there you want to be somewhere else again.
This is so interesting to me, and if true would explain so much of my H's behavior. He was desperate to run away from our house. Never looked back after BD, wouldn't even drive by. My son had to meet him up the street to borrow money. He stayed with his parents (who he couldn't stand for the last 30 years) just to get away. BTW-running from what? He had all the freedom in the world at home, I never questioned him, even when he didn't come home and said it was for work I believed him.
Then he was desperate to get out of his parent's house and rent a house (with the girl). It was only 3 months post BD. THEN, he was obsessively desperate to buy a house "with lots of land and THEN I will be happy". He has been there for less then 2 months. Now he is financially strapped and is stuck there, if he stayed home he/we would of had more options. Not sure what is going to happen next.
-
I think sometimes if he would only let me in, if he would only talk to me to break through this despair, but he never has...he cannot say anything at all
Unfortunately no-one can help a depressed person until they want to help themselves. That much I did learn from my D. She would refuse all attempts at communication and clarity. She rejected all the help I was ready to pay and told me that I was the one needing help. That hurt but I then left her alone. The wise words of my then headteacher was " Leave her alone and keep the door open" She was right.
And I take 5HTP at night to help me sleep and for depression. Both are all natural products and have helped me tremendously
Me too - absolutely swear by it. HTP balances out the serotonin in your body - really balances me well.
It is so beautiful that she has overcome and is so reflective now,
Thank you R2T - unfortunately as she has clinical depression it has a mighty strong hold and she cycles wildly with it.
She has been on medication again on and off for the last 7 years and struggles on a daily basis when the blackness comes. She told me her insight not long after BD and I had found this site and info on MLC.
Currently she is having a very down "black" period again and as she had been involved in two female abusive relationships from age 18 -22 she is also bearing the scars of those - co dependency, fear of abandonment, fear of intimacy etc...
She has a BF now and he is level headed (having spent 4 years on his own finding himself,); he is reliable and adores my D and is very well informed on depression. I can trust him to guide her sensibly I think.
However, my heart breaks all over again when she breaks down as she did last weekend and curls up in a little ball sobbing because she is afraid that she might lose him because of her depression. Her fear is very real but this time she has stated that she is ready for professional guidance and that she has to do this for herself.
That is when I think very little about H - I have my children to look after- he should be there too but he isn't.
-
attaching
-
I am very concerned when I see people recommending natural remedies for anything [R2T I love you but... :) ]. I'm no scientist but I do understand that many so-called pharmaceuticals contain natural ingredients. Natural does not mean safe. Pharmaceuticals have all sorts of side effects BUT they are tested!
For example: the latest thing amongst younger parents is home-made sunscreen. One claimed that coconut oil has a natural sunscreen of 10. Not true, it has a spf of between 2 & 4 & this is due to the reflective nature of the oil [and any oil]. The usual mix for natural sunscreen is oils & zinc ointment. Zinc is white & it does block sun but, why not just put a shirt & pants on a kid?
I know we all have our ways to deal [& mine is: working the body quiets the mind! ::) ] but it is dangerous to self-medicate. Get help from a trusted doctor who knows you. I think lbs's commonly have a combination of anxiety & depression by the way & those should be treated differently.
Okay back to the mlcer [bad idea btw]: I can't decide if they first lost their sense of empathy or their sense of humour!
-
I am very concerned when I see people recommending natural remedies for anything [R2T I love you but... :) ]. I'm no scientist but I do understand that many so-called pharmaceuticals contain natural ingredients. Natural does not mean safe.
Too true; and so many pharmaceuticals are simply natural remedies repackaged. You can drink willowbark tea, or swallow an aspirin; active ingredient is absolutely identical, just in the latter version you know how much you took. No need to feel badly if we use a pharmaceutical to cope, rather than a herbal.
I would hate to generalise about MLCers; depression hits them all differently. Nevertheless I think that some know they have hurt others and feel tremendous guilt which makes them run even more and some choose not to know or feel such low self worth that they behave in such a narcisstic and extreme way as an attempt to show high self worth in the hope of fooling everyone.
...We are plunged into this dark world too. For most of us it is reactive depression and that can last from a few weeks to a year. It's part of the grieving process. For some of us, whilst it is a form of depression that does not plunge us into the same abyss as the MLCers, it is real and our instincts are to keep running too, to keep wishing for, to keep thinking negative self defeating thoughts.
These are great points, really clarifies some thinking for me. My H was so clearly depressed (angry, impulsive, obsessive compulsive behaviours), and self-medicated by extreme exercise (all those lovely endorphins!). The week before BD, his body pretty much gave out and he failed to achieve his 'high'. Came home looking like hell, not sleeping, saying "I feel like there's been a death"; but rebelled strongly against the very idea that he might be suffering from depression. Then.... BD. Bang. I still wonder if he would've gone there, if he'd agreed to manage his depression more conventionally (with meds instead of the 'natural high' of mountain climbing).
On the other hand, for the reactive depression I acknowledge I had, running and natural endorphins worked wonders. Kept my fingers away from my wrists for just long enough for me to see the light again.
-
I know Songanddance, but I was asking Fi. He is no longer that depressed, but like many former MLCer seems to still find it strange that their spouse would be hurt with their actions. When one is out of the fog one should be able to get it.
Or better, I know depressed people with energy run. Most depressed people I know (MLC aside) do not even have the energy to get out of bed, let alone run. They juts want to be home, under the duvet and not to see or to talk to a soul.
Your D has been depressed for nearly 10 years. There was nothing/no one that could have helped come out of her depression?
LBs usually have situational depression. It is a most lighter type of depression, it comes because of the situation. It tends to fade as time goes by. It differ from reactive depression that is a subtype of clinical depression. http://www.elementsbehavioralhealth.com/depression/situational-depression/ , http://www.psyweb.com/articles/depression/definition-of-reactive-depression
Situational depression is mild, reactive is a type of major depression.
I was diagnosed with Situational depression early on (it has gone long ago) and so was Calamity. Maybe others also were but I do not recall who.
High energy MLCer are more bipolar than just major depression. Bipolar is a type of depression, but it has both poles, manic and depressed. Depression only has depressed pole. If someone has both, the mania(run and high energy) and the lows, than it is most likely bipolar or Cyclothymia.
Cyclothymia is mild, http://www.webmd.com/bipolar-disorder/guide/cyclothymia-cyclothymic-disorder There is also bipolar I and bipolar II. The first has mania, the second hypomania (much more severe) http://bipolar.about.com/cs/faqs/f/faq_bp12dif.htm
LL, never seem Life as a House. Will check it out.
Early on I had no troubles reading. In the middle I did. Now It has been some 2 or 3 years I managed to read fine again. And even to study complex subjects.
I tried the natural things first (and probably for too long). They did not help at all and I think they only prolonged, and made the anxiety worse. I should I started the meds much earlier but I did not wanted to. I had natural pills and teas. It took me almost two years since BD to take a med. At that point it was a simple decision: sleep or not to sleep. Since none of the natural things was working, anti-anxiety had to be.
(Typo corrected - Bipolar II)
-
Your D has been depressed for nearly 10 years. There was nothing/no one that could have helped come out of her depression?
Yes there were ways out but she rejected them all (teenage rebellion as well) and had to be almost forced to take ADs. Refused therapy and has only just started in the last two months.
Clinical depression can be life long and there are phases or cycles that are almost akin to bipolar but the highs and the crashes are no where near as intense - Please note, I only have my Ds experience to go on. She has had a couple of years cycling where she is "free " and then the blackness closes in again.
She once explained her experience of it closing in on her ..... imagine a white piece of paper - pure white no blemish, no mark and then suddenly, a tiny black dot in the centre appears. Slowly the dot gets bigger ( a bit like when you burn a hole in paper it ripples outwards) It gets bigger and darker until the whole paper is black and you can no longer see white. As the blackness gets bigger, she said "It's like a dark suffocating fog" and it becomes so black and intense that you can hardly breathe.
She started up with BF early this year and had a "free" time for about 6 or so months but said last week that she can feel it creeping up again. So is now doing what she can to control its hold on her. She is on ADs and the doctors have also put her on beta blockers to stop the panic attacks. I really don't want this and neither does she but it will at least give her breathing space while she finds a therapist she can trust.
-
When I was depressed, I felt like there was a shutter of sorts pressing down on my forehead, like, closing in. Then one morning I woke up and it was gone, the pressure was gone and I could 'see' properly again. It was so liberating. And so odd how it came creeping in without me even noticing, and then vanished overnight...
-
I know clinical depression can be, and often use, lifelong. Some people learn to deal with it/how to mitigate it. Others never do.
Youd D description of what the dark periods are for her is very graphic and telling.
Glad to know your D is open to therapy and that she is taking medication that is helping.
Winston Churchil used to call/discribe his depression his black dog. Churchill was, it seems, bipolar.
«“I don't like standing near the edge of a platform when an express train is passing through. I like to stand right back and if possible get a pillar between me and the train. I don't like to stand by the side of a ship and look down into the water. A second's action would end everything. A few drops of desperation." - Winston Churchill (1874-1965)
Churchill made frequent references to his depression, which he called his "black dog".
Churchill's depressive periods tended to be intense and prolonged. Sometimes they were connected with traumatic external events such as his dismissal from the Admiralty after the Dardanelles disaster in WWI.
Other times they could not be attributed to such outside causes, fitting the classic profile of serious unipolar or bipolar depression. His depressions came and went throughout his long and remarkable life, and commenced in his youth.”
http://www.bipolar-lives.com/winston-churchill-and-manic-depression.html »
-
Did you expect it not to be painful? Did you expect it was not painful to your wife? What have you done/felt if you saw it was not painful to your wife? Would you feel relieved or angry that she was not upset with the situation? If she was not upset with the situation would you have not run?
I always have troubles understanding why the MLCer, who inflicts so much pain upon others runs when they see the pain they have inflicted. Does the MCLer truly thinks their actions will not have consequences? That their spouses, children, friends would not be hurt?
It is like the MLCer wants to do whatever they want to do and nothing/no one should be in pain because of it.
I believe that when I was wallowing in the pit I wasn't thinking about anyone else. The things I was trying to do were (cr*ppy) diversions (that hurt other people). I was self-focused and did not factor in what I was doing to others by my actions. Not thinking clearly or appropriately. And I ran. But I did it and (obviously) regret it.
-
I believe that when I was wallowing in the pit I wasn't thinking about anyone else. The things I was trying to do were (cr*ppy) diversions (that hurt other people). I was self-focused and did not factor in what I was doing to others by my actions. Not thinking clearly or appropriately. And I ran. But I did it and (obviously) regret it.
Thank you for being honest. I truly believe this is how my H thinks.
-
Hi FI,
I have a question if that's okay. You say that you were trying things that were diversions, were you aware of that eg: saying to yourself I don't feel good and if I just do x or y then I will feel happy. Were you having those thoughts? Were you frustrated when things made you happy only for a short time, then back to square one?
Sd
X
-
Thank you for your reply, FI.
-
Hi All
I have come to a decision and while i know that this site brings a lot of comfort and helps people to process their feelings as they try to find out why, why, why. I cannot help feeling that for me personally it is difficult to GAL when i am still spending time trying to figure out my XH's behavior. As long as i am still doing this i have not really freed myself from XH, i am still focusing on him while GAL which in itself is a paradox.
I also wonder if the only way i could cope or make peace with XH's abandonment, deception, betrayal and cruelty - is to convince myself that XH is depressed and in a bad way. Is this the only way I can find compassion?? - if i believe that XH is in a bad place?? What if XH like most of us is actually content and simply like all humans cycles goes through into difficult times, experiences some depression, fears aging and so needs an OW much younger than himself. With all due respect to J, Jae and FI this does not mean that how you treated your 'loved' ones is okay. Is my compassion for Xh conditional on me believing he is having a crappy time of his life with OW or that he is suffering depression. Would any of us find compassion if we started to believe that our MLCers are over their crisis and are actually okay and not only okay but happy with OW. That maybe OW is a better match for who our MLCers have chosen to become at this stage of their lives. Is our compassion conditional on their depression and conviction that they are miserable???
It is for this reason that for the time being i need to leave this forum. Focus on myself, leave XH in the past and make a new future for myself by focusing on my journey and not on whether my XH is in a bad place or not. I think J's wife may have taken the right journey for overcoming her grief. She accepted her marriage was over and started her journey of healing, which did not focus on J's behavior or crisis but on how she was going to get better for herself and for her D's sake.
With gratitude and respect to all on this forum.
To the newbies in the midst of this - i wish you courage and strength as you start your journey of healing. It does get better, you will laugh again and you will trust again. Even at this point while i have decided to move on from this forum (for the time being) it is with a renewed strength, with an acceptance of life's uncertainties, with an acceptance that the only constant in life is change and with an embrace for the unknown.
take care
Nanamste
Moment.
-
Nameste, and thanks for giving the LBS's something they have never had in the same way before - the inside view of the MLCer.
-
In regards to the MLCer "having fun" and especially the "pleasure" they are getting from their REPLAY behaviors, I really think from everything I've read about these men as products of childhood trauma (especially) have a completely different definition of "pleasure".
My Ex-H stood in my living room with tear filled eyes and told me he has not been happy for 34 years. That is his whole life. He later said, there have been highs and lows, but he certainly had bouts of depression.
I do believe these MLCer's are completely emotional numb (chronic depression) during "REPLAY" and that it is the "forbidden fruit" behaviors that are allowing them to feel at least a little bit, maybe sometimes a lot. They are not out there "living it up" while we take care of the children and household responsibilities. Every moment is still just trying to "survive life" and not actually live it.
I believe my H came to me in a depressed state. My Dad was is a depressed man, so I always said "it's a man thing". Despite his lack of engagement and periods of isolation, emotional outbursts, pity parties, etc etc.... I loved our marriage and family unit. We were best friends. I have no regrets. I do think though, that when he married me and all, he thought that was the answer, and it didn't work. he was still unhappy. I DEFINITELY do not blame myself.
I am no longer standing because he is a clinger, and I found the cycling really difficult. I was obsessing and impatient, and I as becoming passive aggressive. I'm so thankful for this post because at one point I thought I'd completely driven him away. But I kind of figured that no matter my behavior, this thing will last as long as it will last.... nothing can shorten it, aside from death.
My point in this dump of text is that their definition of happiness and pleasure is completely skewed.
I also believe that if they're telling you they're happier now when you didn't ask, it's because they certainly aren't!!
-
I do believe these MLCer's are completely emotional numb (chronic depression) during "REPLAY" and that it is the "forbidden fruit" behaviors that are allowing them to feel at least a little bit, maybe sometimes a lot. They are not out there "living it up" while we take care of the children and household responsibilities. Every moment is still just trying to "survive life" and not actually live it.
I believe my H came to me in a depressed state.
This is the point of all RCR's articles. MLC IS Depression, warts and all!
Depressed people behave differently and that is why this forum is so good for all of us - it highlights that we are not alone, that there is much we can learn about MLC depression, our marriages and most importantly ourselves.
No, we are not to blame for the depression nor are we to blame for the MLCers actions, but we do ourselves a disservice if we don't look inside ourselves and learn what we can do to help ourselves move forward and become whole and possibly slightly newer people.
-
I just read your post and your H sounds exactly as my exW. I look back and I realize that she never has been happy. She appeared happy when we were extremely busy or she was surrounded by people. She had a "sweater" of depression that she wore at all times.
My father suffered from depression also. His was severe. I never really noticed it in my exW until she had been gone for a while.
Apparently. Growing up with my dad built a "tolerance" in me.
Unlike your H. My exW vanished. I thank God for that. If she was a clinger? I would not be able to deal with her. I am certain I would have washed my hands of her.
I really don't know how the people on this site can put up with a clinger or a boomerang. My tolerance isn't strong enough to deal with the BS that I read in this forum.
I am positive that I would have ended the stand.
As for my situation? She took out a restraining order on me when I found out about her affair. That restraining order is a Godsend. She hasn't been able to contact me in any form for over a year.
From what I am hearing. The affair ended shortly after it began and she is currently living by herself in an apartment.
She ran away from a very nice house that we remodeled together. Complete with theater, pool table and hot tub. The house is surrounded by gardens that she planted and loved to tend to.
I've had the luxury of being able to distance/detach without the typical MLC games being thrown in my face.
If she EVER figures out what is wrong with her? I will be happy to talk.
As she was insane when she left me and I have to believe she is still insane......... I am content with things as they are.
-
I have come to a decision and while i know that this site brings a lot of comfort and helps people to process their feelings as they try to find out why, why, why. I cannot help feeling that for me personally it is difficult to GAL when i am still spending time trying to figure out my XH's behavior. As long as i am still doing this i have not really freed myself from XH, i am still focusing on him while GAL which in itself is a paradox.
Since Moment has left the forum I don't think she will ever read this but I am very grateful to her for this thread. It did give many of us insight into what we all desperately want---answers. Answers that most of us will never get from the one person who would be able to give them to us- our MLCers. I have also thought many times of the paradox of being on this forum and "GALing". I'm just not done with searching for the answers that I may never get. I am comforted with the stories of others on here that make me believe that I am not crazy. Something is just not right, it's more than he after 28+ years of a great marriage (his words) that he just "fell out of love".
I have also thought the same thing moment has brought up of maybe he isn't depressed and maybe he and the girl are happy, "in love" and all that crap. I mean, he is choosing to stay in this situation that he created so it must be what he wants. Nobody forced him to leave and nobody forced him to buy a house and move in with her. Is MLC real? Are we (the lbsers on this forum) the only ones who believe? Why does the general public think it's just a joke?
Even moment, who started this thread with a look into the mind of a MLCer has strong doubts. Don't we all doubt at some time? What pulls us back? I'm not a true stander. I have a boyfriend and I am truly living like he is never coming back. There is still a piece of me, though, that just can't completely let go and believe that our story is over. I guess that is why I'm still here.
Good luck, moment, I hope you find peace.
-
I agree. My h was never truly happy either. Happy people don't moan as much as my h did. Happy people don't sit around watching life pass them by. I read this quote of not being afraid of dying but being afraid of not living. I live by that quote.
Fred, it's just my opinion, but I think women are designed to tolerate emotions way better then men primarily because we are meant to develop our young and they are filled with emotions from day one. Even down to recognising which cry meant what. It's natures design outwith societies teaching.
The people with clingers reach the line also, but perhaps a bit later than men. It's not really the emotions that tips the line either, but the disrespect for us as human beings.
Sd
X
-
My friend S, whose story I've posted on my thread, who is currently severely depressed, also told me that actually she has ALWAYS been depressed and was never truly happy... hard to believe, I was there when her daughter was born, I was there two months ago when she was preparing for her wedding and for the ceremony, and seriously - if she wasn't happy then she would deserve an oscar for pretending so well... but I have often read that depressed people can't remember ever being happy, I think?
As for unhappy MLCers who have sat idly letting life pass them by - accurate portrayal of my X. I have known him from age 24 to now, age 33, and he hasn't taken a single step forward in his life, except finally going to live on his own now. Work on construction sites until 6 pm, then tv/videogames, then dinner, then more tv, Saturday night drinking at the same pub with his loser high school buddies (the ones who are also still living with their parents, unable to have a real R or a career or grow up in any way).
I have done so much in the same timeframe - age 17 to 26 - that I find it impossible to imagine what it's like to spend 9 years in complete stasis, and the one step forward he took - move in with me one year ago - was just too darn much to handle and he had to run away with a 20yo to keep pretending he's a teenage wannabe rockstar a little bit longer. I don't know what I will do from here to age 33 but it's surely going to be better than what he did with his life...
-
I have examined my life with my husband so many different ways and I am having trouble beleiving the "truths" that he sees.
Yes, my husband suffered from depression. He had bouts of it throughout our marriage. But he also had moments of being him. I can tell you the difference in my man when he was well and when he was not. I can look at pictures and tell you by his eyes if he was in a state of depression at that time. It is haunting to look at. So when my husband told me that I was responsible for his unhappiness that he has felt his entire married life, well that was when my head and heart went - "woah...that can't be possible."
I honestly don't think my husband has been miserable his whole life. I think he has periods of time that he has been. That he can't explain or understand. I think those periods started to last longer and longer. They started to meld together in time and he can't see past the pain to remember the good.
My son says he can no longer remember the Dad he once had. He can't remember the man I talk of..it has been 2.5 years since his Dad has ran away and probably a good 4 since we started into this abyss. My child is 17 - he had 13 years with an active and present Dad (the depression never took him away from his kids, he used to sleep more but it was never directed at them or me for that matter) and he says now he can't remember that person. So the mind has a way of tricking you. I think my son doesn't remember so he can't feel the acute loss that has occurred.
I think depression rewrites and blocks the truth. It is the ultimate lie to one's self.
-
I have examined my life with my husband so many different ways and I am having trouble beleiving the "truths" that he sees.
I think depression rewrites and blocks the truth. It is the ultimate lie to one's self.
Exactly. It clouds their past and their future. Can't remember things ever being good, can't imagine things can ever get better.
I too have gone over our life together with a fine tooth comb and just can't see the things he does. For instance, my husband has told me several times that our marriage was bad for years. One time he said, "You HAVE to have seen that." Guess he was getting desperate for me to agree. But it wasn't. A man who is unhappy doesn't treat his spouse with as much love and care as mine did. I have tried to "reason" with him, but with an MLCer, that is speaking to a brick wall so no point. I did one time say that (up until his MLC) I never doubted his love for me or felt insecure about our relationship. Can't imagine I would have felt that way about a "bad" marriage.
Sigh.
My husband too did have a couple times, looking back, where he was emotionally unstable and depressed, etc. But for the most part was very normal and engaged in life. Didn't see this coming.
-
Great post Back to Me , my H has also said that he has been depressed for many many years , I think he is right I think that he suffered from low grade depression probably for most of his life . There were times that he was very down on himself which I now know to be depression but there were also long periods when he was happy but they could end very quickly . Looking back he is so similar to my Father and his own Father .
Low grade depression does not meat that it is a softer depression it means that someone can suffer all of their life having lows and highs , left untreated it can lead to a very major depression often triggered by an event. I have read an excellent book called "The Half Empty Heart " it was like reading about my H , my F and FIL .
-
BD was about a 2 minute conversation. The first sentence was, "You know this year hasn't been good". I knew he had been "grumpy" but I really did think it was stress from work and his health. That's what he said and I believed him. As for long term depression, I just don't think so. He even said that in letters the following weeks that we had a great marriage, he just "changed and didn't know why". Maybe he has rewritten history in his head but he certainly hasn't said anything to me.
If your husbands think (even if it's untrue) they were unhappy for years, I can understand their need to leave. What about mine? He admits we were happy for 28+ years, it was just the last year that he crashed. Has anybody else's husband had this "sudden crash and run" or is mine just the biggest idiot?
-
Nah having long term depression doesn't mean that they were unhappy with us it means that depression was always bubbling below the surface but not depression cause by us . BD for me was as much as a shock as it was for you .
-
Oh, I didn't think their depression was caused by the LBS. I just think if my husband was depressed it wasn't for very long. When I look back at the months before he left, he was acting different. Now I can see the depression before and after BD. If he was depressed over a long period of time, he did a damn good job of hiding it.
-
I am not even sure they know themselves, my h could could be the life and soul , happy , laughing and then he might go down for a few weeks and then pick up and would okay for long periods of time.
-
Whether they show it outwardly or not, MLCers have this bubbling under the surface for many years. The childhood wounding, whatever it is that causes the MLC has been there since they were young. It just erupts at mid life. We may not really see evidence of it until their crisis.
I found a card after BD that my husband had given me during one of the years that our marriage was allegedly just so awful. He called me his "joy." And now he says our relationship was the cause of his unhappiness? There might have been some rewriting of history going on. ::)
-
My H put in a MASSIVE skating rink last winter, and he skated with the kids most of the season. He took really good care of it for a bit, and then quit it.
I did try and show him the pictures of him and the kids skating, and he gave it a millisecond glance.
He's had happy times in our marriage too and throughout his life. I honestly never clued in that he might be depressed, until after the BD. NEVER. I just thought he was moody and childish!
I can say that his highs and severe lows got closer together near the end. If he was heading on the road for the work trip, he was happy... and I'd started to tease him about it and asked him if he "hated" me.
During the BD apart from telling me how I'd failed as a wife, he told me he just wanted to work and travel.... he forgot to mention the girlfriend, which he's now added to the mix. Since the divorce, he has ramped up the travel and GF time and is only wedging the kids in here and there. Oh, and he's decided to move permanently to the neighbor city which means he won't be able to help me out much with daycare/school commuting. My point is, I think his depression ramped up with the divorce... don't think he saw that one coming.
-
I also wonder if the only way i could cope or make peace with XH's abandonment, deception, betrayal and cruelty - is to convince myself that XH is depressed and in a bad way. Is this the only way I can find compassion?? - if i believe that XH is in a bad place?? What if XH like most of us is actually content and simply like all humans cycles goes through into difficult times, experiences some depression, fears aging and so needs an OW much younger than himself.
I guess what I'm struggling with is moment's quote. Maybe we are just grasping for answers to make sense of our lives. It still doesn't make sense to me that my husband can love and live with me for 28+ years and then just say, "I changed and I don't know why". Depression or some other "dis-ease" gives me a reason to hope that he will "wake up" and love me again. If some "stay in the tunnel" maybe just maybe they just "changed".
Sorry, I usually feel so confident about the process of MLC, but lately he just seems so sure of his decisions.
-
@ Fred - I am in the same boat as you. I told him we can be "friends" when he's "finished going down this destructive path."
-
Not me. I don't believe that the sweetest man can turn into the meanest uncaring person at the drop of a dime... All because they no longer want to be with you. Not wanting to be with someone doesn't mean u treat them like dirt. It's actually easier not to. Its because they are guilty that they villianize us. If they sincerely believed that deep down it wouldn't work with us, then they wouldn't need to justify why they left to themselves and other people. I've suffered from depression, and I know self-absorbed you can become. I also know how well it can be hidden, from others... And even from yourself in a sense... Unfortunately. If there wasn't such a drastic personality change - that is evident to both his family and friends... Perhaps I would be a little unsure. That's not the case, though. I know my husband will come out of this - I just don't know when.. And yes, I do believe that ppl do get stuck in the tunnel... Some figure it out on their death bed as we have read :/.. Why? Because I know a few... And they have verbalized that they know there is something wrong inside... One in their 50's and one in late 40's. Depression probably not apparent to everyone else, but I have because of the family relation. Hugs ps- typing this on my phone so it might be a hot mess and all over the place :D
-
In regards to the MLCer "having fun" and especially the "pleasure" they are getting from their REPLAY behaviors, I really think from everything I've read about these men as products of childhood trauma (especially) have a completely different definition of "pleasure".
I do believe these MLCer's are completely emotional numb (chronic depression) during "REPLAY" and that it is the "forbidden fruit" behaviors that are allowing them to feel at least a little bit, maybe sometimes a lot. They are not out there "living it up" while we take care of the children and household responsibilities. Every moment is still just trying to "survive life" and not actually live it.
I believe my H came to me in a depressed state. My Dad was is a depressed man, so I always said "it's a man thing". Despite his lack of engagement and periods of isolation, emotional outbursts, pity parties, etc etc.... I loved our marriage and family unit. We were best friends. I have no regrets. I do think though, that when he married me and all, he thought that was the answer, and it didn't work. he was still unhappy. I DEFINITELY do not blame myself.
I also believe that if they're telling you they're happier now when you didn't ask, it's because they certainly aren't!!
I agree with everything you wrote... especially what's bolded. Well said.
-
Not me. I don't believe that the sweetest man can turn into the meanest uncaring person at the drop of a dime... All because they no longer want to be with you. Not wanting to be with someone doesn't mean u treat them like dirt. It's actually easier not to. Its because they are guilty that they villianize us. If they sincerely believed that deep down it wouldn't work with us, then they wouldn't need to justify why they left to themselves and other people. I've suffered from depression, and I know self-absorbed you can become. I also know how well it can be hidden, from others... And even from yourself in a sense... Unfortunately. If there wasn't such a drastic personality change - that is evident to both his family and friends... Perhaps I would be a little unsure. That's not the case, though. I know my husband will come out of this - I just don't know when.. And yes, I do believe that ppl do get stuck in the tunnel... Some figure it out on their death bed as we have read :/.. Why? Because I know a few... And they have verbalized that they know there is something wrong inside... One in their 50's and one in late 40's. Depression probably not apparent to everyone else, but I have because of the family relation. Hugs ps- typing this on my phone so it might be a hot mess and all over the place :D
I feel exactly like you do. Whenever I doubt, I read over trusting's 30 Signs of MLC. My XW hit 28 of them easily. 28 of 30. When I read over it and see my XW splattered all over that list, I no longer have any doubt at all.
-
I guess what I'm struggling with is moment's quote. Maybe we are just grasping for answers to make sense of our lives. It still doesn't make sense to me that my husband can love and live with me for 28+ years and then just say, "I changed and I don't know why". Depression or some other "dis-ease" gives me a reason to hope that he will "wake up" and love me again. If some "stay in the tunnel" maybe just maybe they just "changed".
Sorry, I usually feel so confident about the process of MLC, but lately he just seems so sure of his decisions.
The thoughts that I am wrestling with right now too!
So does this mean that you and I are following along with the LBS script?
I am questioning his timing, his choice to pick the OW over me and his family. I am questioning the sureness and the abrupt change in clinging to the fact that I am now dead to him. I am questioning everything. And maybe he just did change and does not love or even like me. But if that was the case, would his children still be part of the equation, would he be able to parent with me instead of ignoring me?
I don't know... But what I do know is that I ask the same questions you were asking.
-
i have those doubts too, especially during those times when he is being quiet and not talking to me like crazy.
-
Hi FI,
I have a question if that's okay. You say that you were trying things that were diversions, were you aware of that eg: saying to yourself I don't feel good and if I just do x or y then I will feel happy. Were you having those thoughts? Were you frustrated when things made you happy only for a short time, then back to square one?
Sd
X
Nope... wasn't even getting to that point. I think I was just trying to not be depressed. I'm not saying that my home was a depressing place. Or that my wife was making it that way. But it was where I just didn't want to be.
-
FI~ your description is very much "the same" as my H's. We are reconnection/reconciling and he has said that is "where he was" it wasn't that is was me, his wife, he just didn't want to be ..he was looking for anything to make him feel, better, happy whatever, just feel. he had pulled completely away from me, his family, his friends.....
Early on, even before first BD I guess he would say " I hate coming home" wanted to just keep on driving past the house, I never understood it at the time he said it...it was hurtful, but now I can say he said it without it hurting me as I know he was "not healthy" he was so pulled away from our marriage at the time.
tough stuff for everyone
31andcounting
-
My mlcer said he didn't want to come home, had nothing to come home to. Nothing except a wife, a baby and a little boy? When we were trying to make it work between BD2 and final BD he suddenly said he felt like he had something worth coming home to! It was all so confusing and so hurtful.
-
The not wanting to come home and having nothing to come home to must be more of the MLC script because Mr J also said those things.
-
Yep, my husband said the same things (to others not to me). He said he missed the kids being little and now that I work, he felt he had nothing to come home to.
-
I think this has to do with depression. The only reason I say that is because when our son passed away, I looked in to renting an apartment and was going to leave H and S to be alone. I told H there was nothing for me to come home to. He said what about me and S, I told him I just wanted to be alone.
I envisioned myself in an empty apartment just sitting on the floor staring at the wall.
-
My H was the same. Stayed at work as much as he could because he didn't want to deal with anything at home. I think this was one of his first signs of running
Fi thank you for your candor in your responses to the many questions posed to you here. Blessings and best wishes to you
-
My H stayed at work for long hours too and when he wasn't there he went to the local pub where he met OW. He seemed to avoid home as much as possible. Funny thing is, 3 years down the track he's doing the same thing again to OW. I agree, in hindsight it was the first signs of running.
-
Mine has definitely used work as a way of running. He also at one point told me it was because he didn't want to be at home. That was after BD, I think.
-
Funny thing is, 3 years down the track he's doing the same thing again to OW. I agree, in hindsight it was the first signs of running.
Mr J did it from day one with OW1. He made sure he was always busy, djing clubbing, then he even got a MLC job that keep him working on weekends during the day, the only time he had for OW1. She left him pretty quick afterwards.
With OW2 Mr J used that tactic plus having his man cave = his records room, where she is not allowed and where he spends all his little time in the flat he shares with her. He also made sure he got two additional jobs.
-
Mine also used to say that he did not want to come home, he said sometimes he would pull over and just cry , obviously he assumed it was because he did not want me of his life with me .
Callan
-
I would say we have identified another piece of script... my guy was always late from work, always working on saturday if he could. Even when he did get home he would go straight to the living room and lock himself there playing videogames for hours, then lock himself in the bathroom for another hour, then have dinner watching tv... and later, glued to the phone texting OW.
At BD he told me he couldn't stand coming home, that was why he was always staying late, said something like he would get to the front door and feel sick at the thought of coming in. I actually had forgotten that bit... how painful to hear it. Good lord, I swear I wasn't that unpleasant to be around, I was happy to see him and usually had his favourite meal ready for dinner! I for one couldn't wait for him to come home...
I thought it was because he was feeling guilty about coming in and lying to my face about OW, hence why he avoided me...
-
I wonder if eventually they start to feel like that about going into there new homes with OW or OM .
Callan
-
I wonder if eventually they start to feel like that about going into there new homes with OW or OM .
Callan
Since they left b/c of their own issues, I really, really, do feel this exact thing must happen. However, the OP is controlling (my husband actually said this to a mutual friend) so they are forced to come home. I gave husband all the freedom in the world, I never even asked why he didn't come home. I thought it was work.
Now they are stuck. If they go back on their decisions they have to admit that they were wrong. They would have to admit it was them and face their issues. Isn't this exact "avoidance personality trait" what got them into this mess to begin with? On top of all this, the op is an expert in emotional blackmail. Now you have a depressed MLCer, with an avoidance personality, being buried in guilt. No wonder it takes a long time.
-
Now they are stuck. If they go back on their decisions they have to admit that they were wrong. They would have to admit it was them and face their issues. Isn't this exact "avoidance personality trait" what got them into this mess to begin with? On top of all this, the op is an expert in emotional blackmail. Now you have a depressed MLCer, with an avoidance personality, being buried in guilt. No wonder it takes a long time.
This!
-
my h tries to avoid going back to his apartment where the ow is always at cause she never leaves. it's like an event when she goes down the street to the stupid grocery store. it's so pathetic.
but the whole depressed and not wanting to admit they made a bad decision thing is so spot on with him.
-
My XW told me the exact same thing -- that she hated coming home. She would spend hours at a bar after work and weekends with her "BFF"*. She also works with the "BFF". So they would essentially see each other everyday.
It's strangely reassuring to see so many people hear and see the same things I've had to deal with.
* quotation marks are there to note my severe distaste for this woman
-
I wonder if the whole "not wanting to come home" script is part of the MLC depression and avoidance. Possibly home feels depressing to them---that whole mid-life evaluation of "Is this really my life? No, can't be, there's got to be more." Then the MLC thinking comes in that there must be something bigger and better out there for me and I must go find it so that I will no longer be depressed (not that they realize they are depressed), fill the void, escape the pain, fill-in-the-blank.
I don't think any of this is rationally thought out like this on their part. And of course they don't realize that what is causing their depression is not their home, their family, etc. but themselves.
My H so desperately wanted to sell our house. Couldn't wait to "get it into someone else's hands" he said. He is now renting another home and I recently learned he told someone he does not like where he is living. No, he does not like the person living in the house. Himself.
-
Home also represents pressure and the things they are running from. My husband clearly did not want to be a husband or father anymore, didn't want the responsibility of home upkeep, no longer had any pride in his home (although that is also now slowly turning around!). MLCers do try to shed the lives they were leading before.
-
As the last post on this thread - because we are over 150 posts...
I repeat something I said much earlier on this thread.
My D24 had serious depression and ran away from home when she was 16 until she was 18. She still has depression and some phases are very dark. However she has stated exactly what RCR says in contact and communication - the depressed person never wants to be where they are. They are never happy anywhere - they think they might be so that's why they are constantly on the move.
In the early days when I told H to go and live with OW if she meant that much to him, he replied
"I don't like her house"
and then " I don't like it here"
and then 1 minute later" I can relax here"
another minute later - " i could live at hers but then I would want to come home to watch the tv"
The MLCer is suffering from depression and one of the symptoms is that they never want to be where they are - they are constantly searching for that elusive haven.
-
Yep, mine too, he completely stopped doing things around the house. Also, he couldn't wait to get out, moved in parents condo,,...couldn't wait to get out, moved into apartment with the girl,...couldn't wait to get out, just bought a huge house in the woods "and THEN I will be happy". He actually said this. BTW, this was all in 14 months.