Midlife Crisis: Support for Left Behind Spouses
Archives => Archived Topics => Topic started by: hyperglad on November 19, 2010, 05:29:35 AM
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What i mean is my H has been described by RCR as a clinging Boomerang....will his exit and reconciliation differ to that of a Vanisher.
I know there are only 3 on here who have reconciled so far and number 4 (Baxter) is almost there , but i also know that many on here have read a lot about MLC.
I just wondered if there was any consistencies in behaviour of return linked to the type of MLCr if that makes sense, I'm not sure if I have explained myself well with this :o
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Interesting question hyperglad. I got it. My guess is that because each mlcer is different their return will be different. In the early days RCR said my H would likely be a clinging Boomerang. I tend to agree. All I know is he asked that we start spending time "dating" and then out of the blue asked to come home. He moved home a month ago. We are working on reconciliation. It's hard stuff; I still become anxious a bit. Only time will take away all of the anxiety.
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I too wonder this. My H is with the OW so I think he will never want to reconcile because she is in th picture. She is controlling his life and he must like it because he is still there,. He would never let me do this controlling thing which I would never do anyway. Do our spouses just go on living and allowing the ow to control them or do they start to wake up and think this is not what I want and how could I have done this? Or do they not have any feelings at all and think this is right and they have done nothing wrong. How can they even think that the ow or om is better than what they had for all these years especially if there was nothing bad about their marriage? What changes them all of a sudden. What makes them do things so out of character and no one can believe what they are doing? It is a chemical embalance or just they go crazy?
Any input would help.
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All I can say is why would they all come out of their MLC the same way - that would then make it easier for us all to work out where they are - what they are going to do next, blah blah and why make our lives easier hey!!
if only the script for the end was so predictable like the BD etc but life is never that easy
Love Bxx
;D
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Interesting question, my guess:
I think it will opposite of how they left.
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Just a general interest question that maybe RCR, Stayed or HB (or others whose spouse seems to be heading out of MLC). During replay the MLCer rewrites history, especially the history of a marriage, to a point where any good times that took place in it are either ignored outweighed by what they see as either bad times/redundant relationship.
Towards the end (liminality) as the "fog" starts to lift, what happens to the rewritten history? Do good memories start to come back or increase in importance? Given that the premise of standing is that if a person waits long enough, ultimately the LBS will have the final say in whether the marriage can be reconciled, what is it that the MLCer sees in the LBS at that point that they failed to see for so long in replay?
As you all know, my H is nowhere near this poing anyway, but I am curious about whether anyone has any insight into the specific kind of thinking that starts to change? Do they wake up one morning thinking "actually, wife/husband wasn't that bad"? Does their brain suddenly access memories and feelings that were locked away, and why are they then released?
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I have read some about this, and and have seen at least fragments of it in my friend's situation that compare to what RCR describes with her situation.
The history that was re-written does start to become positive again, gradually. In the beginning, and at the height of the crisis, I have often seen (and heard) the word hopeless to decribe the feelings of the MLCer. In one of Conway's books, it describes depression with several words....two of which are negative and hopeless. It goes on to say that the past looks dreadful to the MLCer, making the present and future both seem hopeless....but because they are in denial, the MLCer typically tries changing so many things.....body, job, spouse, and belief system.
In my friend's situation, there was something his ex-wife mentioned a few times around bomb drop and was very negative about it. About 2.5 years later, she told him she wished they could go back to that time.....her memories of that time were starting to become positive again.
I believe that as the depression lifts, the MLCer more clearly sees the strength of the LBS. I don't think the connection between the MLCer and LBS ever really goes away.....that may be why some MLCers are boomerangers. As the depression and denial start to lift, which as Conway describes is a gradual process, the memories that were so clouded in negativity begin to become positive again.
Just my thoughts and perceptions.
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We have a thread on this somewhere I may look for it and merge this into it.
It is not necessarily at the end of replay but when the crisis is over that history becomes real again.
When they end replay that is not the end but more like halfway through.
They still must face their issues, and for most that is the problem.
They will try anything to avoid looking at themselves to fix their problems and try to blame someone else.
This can go on until after acceptance.
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Here is an excerpt from Conway about this.
After values are sorted and realigned, a gradual, but fluctuating, coming-down from anxiety occurs. There is a return, surprisingly, to life structures quite similar to the previous ones, only now more refined, focused, and effective.
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As the depression and denial start to lift, which as Conway describes is a gradual process, the memories that were so clouded in negativity begin to become positive again.
That is really interesting DGU, do you know if MLCers every have "clearings in the fog" moments of clarity, when in the thick of the worst of the crisis, or is it at that point that confusion gives way to "certainty" that the marriage is over, that life HAS to change to make them feel better about themselves? I know there is confusion, but does that mean that there are times where they question their own revision even during crisis?
I know these are general questions, it is just so hard to understand what is going on in their heads...
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As the depression and denial start to lift, which as Conway describes is a gradual process, the memories that were so clouded in negativity begin to become positive again.
That is really interesting DGU, do you know if MLCers every have "clearings in the fog" moments of clarity, when in the thick of the worst of the crisis, or is it at that point that confusion gives way to "certainty" that the marriage is over, that life HAS to change to make them feel better about themselves? I know there is confusion, but does that mean that there are times where they question their own revision even during crisis?
Clearings in the middle of the tunnel are touch and goes.
They happen all the time.
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Hi,
My H knows that what he is doing will come down on him very hard one day. H said this the first time last week and again today. He knows and is willing to take risk that if he comes out of this that I will be gone.
It is very strange that if you know that a situation will go bad for you that you still want to go on with it. I can not get my head around this.
He also confirmed that the reason why he run away has nothing to do with me, it has to do with him, but he doesn't know what is going on with him. He can not give me 1 reason. We talked about several things that weighted on our marriage but those are practical things that can be solved easily and are not the real reasons for him walking out.
I suppose that he is close to the end of replay (H is still living with OW, he is still in replay than) but these oehoe-things seem to be gone and he is more depressed now. But he did not look at himself yet. Rather than looking at himself he is stuck somewhere and went that far today to confirm that he will never return also if he left OW; half an hour later H suggested that we could talk again on Tuesday. Strange thing to do for someone who says he is finished.
His rewriting of history goes only that far that he in his mind thinks that I did not appreciate all the hard work he has done.
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Ummmm, my husband has had a lot of touch n goes.... with several moments of clarity. He doesn't see me as the enemy any more, and is now rewriting history to make it BETTER than it was.... not in the sense that we didn't have issues, but in the sense that it was a CAKEWALK compared to what's coming down the pike with consequences and the complication of OW, which he dragged into our lives....
He KNOWS we had a good thing, but is now scared we can't be good again, due to his destructive actions.... They do look for some changes though, so if you haven't moved one iota, you're not going to look so good to them...
Mine has started recognizing the really good things.... "the little things" according to him, and that negates a lot of the stuff they thought they couldn't live with. He is looking for comfort... the same comfort he was attracted to in OW.... a very long time ago in my life, a wise man once made the comment.... "You know, sometimes you just want a Barcalounger!" meaning, your comfy chair that you can count on to be there. OW is too volatile, doesn't smell right, doesn't cook right, doesn't decorate her house right, doesn't parent right.... and he hates her family. The fun of being her "savior" turns into a big drag... trust me.
This clarity overlaps replay... they ease up on the rewriting of history the more you stand your ground and tell the truth... eventually, they remember it just the way you did.... flaws and all.
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Hi,
My H knows that what he is doing will come down on him very hard one day. H said this the first time last week and again today. He knows and is willing to take risk that if he comes out of this that I will be gone.
It is very strange that if you know that a situation will go bad for you that you still want to go on with it. I can not get my head around this.
I'm new to this board, and the BD even though I see it was going on for awhile, but when you say this, the first thing I thought of was almost childlike, they know if they smoke, drink, play on the computer instead of doing homework, lie, cheat or steal there will be real consequences but the impulse control just isn't there.
I guess it could be equated to an alcoholic or addict as well, they know they may lose the job if caught, or may lose their license, or even custody of kids they love, but it's something that can't be controlled, for now, anyway. Is it the same process? Recognition they are self-destructing and learning to handle it as a drug addict bottoms out, finds themselves in sobriety and recreates the life they were trying to escape from because it wasn't that bad? I'm specifically thinking of all of those suburban moms you hear about who have a nice life and chose to become addicted to deal with stress instead of working on it from the inside out, i.e. it's someone else's fault they are unhappy.
Sometimes the stress for any addict is real, sometimes it's perceived, but the escape and it's ramifications are very real, aren't they? Just food for thought, not an expert by any means except my mother had an alcohol problem and I've been in therapy to learn how to focus on changing myself.
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IKK, my husband is an alcoholic.... after several tries over many years, I found myself in Al Anon and finally understanding the purspose, because of my husband's MLC. I was at rock bottom, and I knew they had a program that could help me put the focus on me.
The twelve steps are very basic, simple and POWERFUL. Anything else is overthinking, in my opinion, and I do not yet have a STRONG PROGRAM...
The only difference in what we teach for living with a spouse in MLC (not necessarily living together...) and what Al Anon teaches is that we indulge in venting about our spouses here... obsessing about them some... as part of our natural process. I believe it is helpful to a degree to just make you aware that you aren't alone... but the real work and movement is found in ourselves.
Addiction is all about avoiding addressing the pain of childhood trauma... MLC is the same thing. My husband would NEVER approach a crisis like I would.... reading, seeking counseling, etc. he just wouldn't... knowing this allows me to have empathy and understanding for him even though he is destructive and hurtful, the same way an addict is... they know it sometimes, but the addiction is in charge.
Believe it or not, I liken MLC as a form of posession.... our spouses are NOT themselves.... unable to control their impulses, even when they WANT TO DESPERATELY! My husband has actually used the word "Posessed" to describe how he has felt in this... "addicted" is another word he uses...
yes, they are adults with choices, but none of them would choose to CONTINUE their behaviors..... they took that first "hit" of "freedom" and they were hooked into a world of sickness and volatility that they can't control... they were blindsided.
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Letting Go - I totally agree with everything you are saying. I just found it really interesting. Our wheels are turning, and turning, but that's how solutions are found. Heck, look at what a mess I am even with counseling, this forum, supportive friends I've told (kept that small though) and I know darn well I'll be overthinking for a while since this is still so new it stings.
That was my first impression of what was said about the quote, like you said, the first "hit"... my H is a withdrawn personality and it went deeper and deeper because that was/is his coping mechanism. I used to think it was selfish and poor body language, boy, I've changed my lane on that one! I know what you mean as my H is not a person who will search out materials and answers, on a personal level that is.
I agree with you, as well, our spouses are not themselves. When I see my H's eyes in the middle of what I call an "episode" or the forum refers to as monster spewing, it's not him. His eyes are cold and hard, not the man I know. It's frightening. And yes, agreement again, he did have childhood trauma, abusive father, and withdrawing and zoning out were his ways to cope. Now it has gone to the extreme, out of his control, and taken control of him, much like I equate the way an addiction takes control of the person. They don't realize how bad it was until they come through the other end.
So many correlations, so many situations and problems and emotional turmoil for so many of us. I think of families living in small towns, I grew up in one, where people didn't go to Al-anon, or AA or anything similar because of the stigma, or lack of availability, and today, we have access to forums like this from all over the place to vent, get support, share, and for the spouse who wants to research and work through, with or without therapy, it's a blessing.
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Ikk and LG - really interesting, the correlation to an addict. LG I am so far behind you in this process and H and I have very little contact other than about the children, he has no way of seeing any changes and progress in me. I am slowly changing anyway, because I don't want to exactly as I was, with or without H, again.
Not that I was a bad person (of course, I had flaws) but I was not the person I wanted to be, I compromised alot of myself in my R. That, combined with my all time low self-esteem that I was suffering for the year prior to BD (bear in mind that I had just had a baby, I felt tired, stressed, fat, unattractive, overburdened, undervalued and received no help, encouragement, kindness from my MLCer - I didn't know he was in MLC, in fact did not realise it was a real condition - he was previously such a considerate, kind and thoughtful person and the changes crept up slowly as they do, I think I internalised it all and felt that there was just something wrong with me). In fact, H accused me of having PND and I spent ages reflecting and wondering if I did. I even told him I thought I might have. The truth was I did not. I was ecstatic about my baby, in love with my family, excited about life but living with him literally drained all of that out of me. It had NOTHING to do with the baby or my hormones. I have given this a lot of thought since he left, and I can see that it was all part of his MLC - he made everything my fault (and, in any case, if I did have PND and he thought it was serious, as a concerned partner and parent of my children should he not have sought help for me or helped ease the burdens that I had? If not for me, then for the kids?)No, he invented reasons that I was hard to live with, because he did not wish to look for the truth of why he was feeling so low when, for all intents and purposes, he had everything he had ever wanted.
So, I am changing things that relate to why I was so ready to believe I was the problem, without ever considering it was him. Why, even though it did not make me happy, I was willing to put everyone in my life ahead of myself. Why I abandoned my dreams and stopped talking about them. Why, when I had always been a spirited person, I let it get to a point where my spirit was sucked out of me. So - abandonment issues, etc.
Anyway, my point is that I am changing for me, because I never want to feel that weak and powerless in my own life again. And strangely, although H has left, is living with OW and shows no sign of regret towards me (but then I never see him), I feel like I have power over my life (not control, but power) I understand that I cannot contril life, but I do have the power to affect it. And, while I am still sad and by no means "over" what happened, I do feel optimistic and energised in many ways.
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My H is nowhere near the end of MLC. He is still deep in replay and the OW very much in the picture. He re-wrote all our history of 19years by saying we never had anything in common and had drifted apart. He couldn't remember anything good about our marriage. He told me that before he left he used to dread coming home from work. He said he would get a sinking feeling in his stomach as he opened the door. Yet now he loves to visit every day and hates when he can't make it.
I don't know if there is any significance in this, but over the last few weeks or so, he has texted me over little things that he has 'remembered'. Listening to a Chris Rea song, and it reminded him of sitting on the porch at my parents when we first met. An interview on the radio with Martin Sheen, reminding him of when we loved to watch the West Wing on TV, and how he says he can't watch that programme with anyone else. I know they are only little things, but nevertheless I am sure a few months back he would never have made the connection. I do still feel that he will always be stuck in the tunnel in limbo though.
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Glimmer,
I think you are about a year ahead of me in all of this (well at least in terms of BD - who knows how long they were like this before then).
I think that what your H's actions show is that no matter what they are doing during MLC, even in replay, they just can not "forget" the past and with time, they have to start acknowledging some truth in the idea that there were good times! After all, what sort of idiot would stay in a relationship for 19 years that they hated. The feeling trapped thing is ALL internal. They are trapped in themselves, not with you! And that doesn't go away when they leave. They feel initial relief because they THINK they have solved the problem, and of course the validation and idolisation of the OP helps them feel that they were right. But with time the relief fades, OP becomes real rather than a fantasy and they eventually have to acknowledge on some level that we were not the (whole) problem. Whether that eventually becomes acknowledgement that they themselves were the problem is the part that I have a hard time seeing my H doing. He has never been one to admit when he is wrong, it has always been about others being wrong about him, or stupid, or unfair. So, like you, while I believe he may one day see things differently than he does now, whether he admits it to anyone is a whole other story.
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I think that what your H's actions show is that no matter what they are doing during MLC, even in replay, they just can not "forget" the past and with time, they have to start acknowledging some truth in the idea that there were good times!
I disagree, when I left Dearheart I couldn't remember any good things part of me knew thay had to be there but I oculdn't remember. Once my depression started lifting I remembered more and more. Until I was able to remember the good outweighed the bad.
Dearheart sometimes achnowledges now it wasn't all bad but the bad still outweighs the good. But they seem fleeting at present but really if it were all as bad ashe said he wouldn't be trying to spend so much time here. He knows somewhere inside it wasn't as bad but his emotions are all over the place and he can't see it, he just associates me with the bad unfortunately. THat's what makes coming back so hard.
It isn't the desire, we see it all the time it's the fear and although it makes NO SENSE it is a real fear. I had meds and counselling and still it took me months to be able to come home. On top of that I demanded he move, I was lucky and he loved me enough to do so. So he's hesitations and fears are real and they are beyond scary. I mean think about it, how hard do we work to avoid what we fear? It is unfair but the family is part ofwhat they fear.
I had a friend terrified of Butterflies. I mean it even pictures of butterflies had her sweating and vomitting. Spiders I get, venomous creepy they didn't bother her, but butterflies who can't urt anyone had her a mess. She KNEW they couldn't hurt her. KNEW there was nothing they could do to her but did it stop her fear? NO.
So the family hasn't done anything but they still give the MLCer an irratonal fear, that in most cases will be overcome.
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Conway calls the end part of MLC a gradual and fluctuating coming down from anxiety.
Below is a description from RCR in the article Progress: Forward, Backward, Limbo. I like both descriptions. One thing in particular I like about RCR's is using the beginning as a reference point as most of us can remember the back and forth emotional swings of the MLCer from that time.
The Rollercoaster is wildest at the beginning and end when they are making decisions. When he sees the light at the end of the tunnel, the damage also becomes visible. It may be so great that he runs again. Or he sees the Love and Hope in his spouse and becomes afraid.
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DGU
What do you think happens in situations like ours where they are legally as well as physically gone?
When they start to see the light at the end of the tunnel, will they think they burned this bridge?
I think of your friends situation, but what do you think is likely in a divorce vs return to current marriage. All speculation of course.
Butterfly
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Thanks DGU, it is interesting that the beginning and the end are similar in that way.
SL - although I wouldn't wish it on anyone, i think it is helpful that you are able to call upon your own experience to describe some of the feelings our MLCers may experience. Depression is so hard to understand if you have not experienced it. I have seen my mother in a state of depression that had her hospitalized and from the outside it is so hard to get the turmoil that person experiences, even when one is close to them.
I have not spoken to H in over a month and so I really have no sense of how he views our marriage right now (I assume, as he is in replay, that it is in a mainly negative light). I believe that he feels guilt which he tries to assuage from time to time by sending me token gifts. You are probably right that he does not see the good or it is outweighed by the bad. But I wonder if the touch and goes (moments of clarity) to reflect and occasional and confusing memory of life with the LBS as good? As I said, I don't have very much to go on as I am NC with H, he is living with OW and he never contacts me about anything other than the kids or money.
Butterfly, I wonder that too. SL's thread about return stories certainly contains anecdotal evidence that post divorce reconciliation and remarriage are possible, but not inevitable. But that could be said about any MLC sitch, I suppose, divorced or not.
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"do reflect an occasional" i am the typo queen! Need some sleep! Night folks and good wishes to you for a positive day tomorrow!
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I am not certain there is a whole lot of difference, but I don't really know. I guess I base some of that on the fact that divorced MLCer behavior is simliar to those MLCers who are still married.
You are familiar with your friend's story up in the success stories thread. Even though that original marriage did not come back together, it sounds like there was a real desire for that possibility on the part of the MLCer.
At some point, I think there is a possibility that most MLCers worry about a burned bridge. RCR had referenced Frank Pittman's writing in a recent blog that referred to the abandoned spouse most of the time ultimately having the final choice.
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At some point, I think there is a possibility that most MLCers worry about a burned bridge. RCR had referenced Frank Pittman's writing in a recent blog that referred to the abandoned spouse most of the time ultimately having the final choice.
Of course the LBS spouse does.
Me I'm going to pluck some numbers out of the air just as an example. No real figures ok? And ONLY about MLC.
Say we have 100 broken couples
80 of the LBS think they have been well and truly dumped, don't want to wait for whatever reason and move on with their lives. MLCer has NO choice there, LBS has decided to write them off. These LBS move onto new relationships and the MLCer is written off as a pr!ck and many other names as well.
So that leaves 20.
20 decide to stand. And stand. and stand.
and stand
another 10 decide it's too much their MLC spouse is never going to come back, they will never move past their issues, they never went back to others, they have never admitted they were wrong, they never hear from them, they must really love the op. It's taking too long, it's too hard. Whatever. So that 10 disappear as well, once again the MLCer has no choice. The LBS has made a choice.
So we have 10 left.
And they stand.
So we have 7 MLCers that decide to come home. Who has that final choice? Hmmm the MLCer? No. It's the LBS. Now it may not work out but more often than not it's the LBSer who calls it quits. oh he came home but he wasn't really here, he went back to ow but she can have him I've had enough, etc. So although the MLCer may not really be out of MLC the LBSer is finished.
That leaves 3.
1 of whom really is done and doesn't want to go back ever at all. And the other 2 who really are wanting to come home but just can't do it. can't see past the damage can't get past their fear. And they are the only ones that don't give the LBS the choice.
WE have the CHOICE the rest of the time.
And then you hear the stories of MLCers trying to return many years after the fact. And the LBSer can't/won't go there. And that is their choice.
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SL,
I know that your numbers are real....but, boy, that was dismal......
Kinda depressing.
Maybe not depressing in the fact that the LBS makes the ultimate decision (That is empowering).
You made your point, though.
L
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Butterfly,
I don't know if it's because they get talked about more out of interest, but I hear more stories of people who get divorced and reconcile than those who are separated successfully work it out.
Makes me start to wonder if they need that break, a real sense of choice without someone holding on to them (even if that's just their perception).
What do others think?
It's part of why I'm just letting my H be NC. I'm giving the time and space he needs to figure this out onew way or the other. This week is 5 months!!! Just to show what 5 months can mean... 5 months after I met him I had already (almost) quit my job (hadn't quite told them yet), (but had already) accepted a new job all the way across the country and made plans to move there together in a few more months. Eek.
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Love,
I don't know.
I guess those who actually divorce (a legal document, a legal hearing, a legal official end of the marriage) who remarry (legal ceremony) are more of a story (headline) - than those who separate and get back together. (no legal document, no legal hearing, etc. no official wedding ceremony when they get back together).
I would think that people who separate - get back together quite often - with little to no fanfare. (Just doesn't seem to be happening here too much - btw).
L
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I think there is a very REAL chance that the majority of marriages which are affected by MLC could be reconciled. Like Shantilly, I think the majority of LBS cannot see the forest for the trees and are afraid to stick with the marriage, or are not really committed and they start dating. When you start to date, YOU WILL MEET SOMEONE that excites you.... you just will.
There are some of us who make it past the roughest times and then just get on with it. I don't feel a need to date any more.... I feel strongly my husband will be back. By the time he gets back, I possibly could have made the rounds of the internet dating sites, getting past my awkwardness, etc. and then, possibly be involved in a serious relationship, but with kids, I wouldn't EVER want to remarry or move in with someone that wasn't a truly proven commodity, and that could be at least a couple of years! Might as well keep the husband I have, as I KNOW he will never cheat on me again, hahaha!! With a new guy, I'd have that concern....
Also, the complication with child visitations, new R baggage and his kids and ex..... ummm no thanks. How is that better? I'm also not keen on my kids having a step-mom.... I'm just NOT. I don't EVER want to see my husband with another woman.... I'm not ok with it. We have NOT moved on.
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I am "vicious" like that.
I just tell it like I see it. The LBS really does have the choice. Of course more than 7 would come home and most likely most of them would work out. But I was just trying to show it is us who has the final decision.
LG I agree I don't want the girls to have another "daddy"they have one and he is a very good daddy. I can see sometimes that he is going to be an even better one once this mess is over.
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Hope no one minds if I return to the original question. I believe my H is at the tail end of replay (though how does one really know...ever?) so there are still some small replay signs but what is more to the point is that our history that was definitely re-written is now coming back to reality. H is now recalling all of the good and says he wants it back to where we were pre-MLC (of course I know that isn't entirely possible but we'll deal with that later). I no longer hear the mantras of "I wouldn't have gotten married so quickly" or the "you've never supported me"...all the rewriting stuff.
So I think there can be optimism about that.
However, what I now see being rewritten is the history of his MLC. Either that, or, he truly does not remember (part of me thinks that is true, part of me thinks that is avoidance on his part). Sometimes he looks truly shocked if I bring up something horrific he said a year ago. Sometimes, he looks ashamed. Sometimes he will say "Oh, I was never angry at you" in an attempt to pretend it wasn't so.
Interesting.
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Bon Bon, my husband started recalling the good in our relationship and marriage, I no longer felt in danger of being served with D papers, and he also re-writes some of his MLC behaviors. I believe he is APPROACHING the end of replay, or as we say in the south.... "fixin' to get ready to be ready to dump OW". I still feel we have several more months to go before OW is gone. Until that happens, he's still in replay.
I know that you are aware the end of replay is not the end of MLC. Now that you know how to handle replay, the end of it may come as a shock to you.... the depression, etc. I think if you want to "know" where he's at and "how much longer" you may as well see a psychic.
What would happen if you could ACCEPT your husband AS HE IS right now? To just say, "well, I don't like all of these changes, but I accept you and love you anyway..... have a wonderful life." MLCers do seek acceptance, and I wonder if our natural resistance to the process doesn't hold them up a little sometimes...
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LG i do think our resistance is what makes MLC last longer........I believe now ive truly let go and left h to sort this out himself he feels hes doing what hes doing for himself, when he felt i was telling him ( i didnt realise he felt this way i thought i was helping him) he fought against me, now hes coming up with answers for himself hes more inclined to process them making it easier to accept there his decisions and this what he wants..........Ive accepted that me trying to push him out of the tunnel just pushes him backwards, the more i leave him the further forward he comes. However i suppose this is process for us and until we’ve been through the process we cant/dont/wont accept were hindering their progress all we want is for them to get their head out their own arse (or o/w's lol) and just come home, ive been at this just over 2 yrs and its took me probably 18 months to learn this wish i accepted this sooner but then if i did what lessons would i have learnt.........I am taking this time to reserve my energy like you i know without a doubt my h will come home and then hard work will really begin xxxxxxxxxxxx
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LG and WGH,
I could not agree more!
I think I am seeing the start of depression but I can't be sure. That said, as WGH said, it took me forever but I finally learned to just let be. I do live with my darling MLCer so sometimes letting "be" is not so easy but from where I was, compared to where I am, I don't fight it much because I too know the absolute futility nevermind the catapulting backwards when we fight the changes. I don't always keep my mouth shut but I try to! LOL!
I'm under no illusions this thing is complete even though he tells me it is. No sir, he has no idea and is avoiding the depression, remorse, acceptance...all of it. But, it's his head and his arse (l0l) and I can't pull it out for him. It's his timetable and his to fix.
We shall see.
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BonBon I am going to repeat what I said earlier, just because replay is over does not mean that the MLC is over.
It just means that your training period is over and now the real hard work starts.
So everything you learned while he was in replay will be put to the test.
While he is in depression, withdrawal and acceptance they are still in crisis and the LBS will be put to the wall again.
Having to redo all the lessons that you have learned.
So we must still keep our expectations low and our detachment high.
I think you are on the right track but just because he tells you something is no reason to believe it.
Actions not words, (believe none of what he says and 50% of what he does), this still holds true.
I wish I could make it go faster but this is the way it works.
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Thanks OP.
No, I'm not under any illusions this MLC is over. HE thinks it's over....I know it is not. He is simply trying to pretend that he is comfortable with himself right now but I know better. Somewhere along the line in the last 6 months, he started changing his attitude about me which is nice for me admittedly but again, I know he has a long way to go and I am keeping as detached as possible. I still see small replays...I know he is avoiding what happened between us and I know he is keeping busy to avoid facing his reality, whatever that may be.
I'm just going along to get along. I am glad though that our history is no longer being re-written. Maybe it will again...who knows.
Sorry, didn't mean to hijack...just wanted to comment on revisionist history and what I'm seeing these days.
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It may not be so bad that they "re-write" or forget things they said or did during Replay. It could be indicative of their change in feelings......sort of like how they were soulmates when they met the OM/OW.
BonBon....you sound good in your post, like you are more accepting of where he is right now and seeing some of the progress you need to see.
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Thanks for getting back to the op Bonbon, and I really appreciate your personal insight into this process. While each person's experience will be different (like all aspects of MLC, I guess) there seem to be some general behaviours and signs that are common.
I hope that things continue to go in the "right" direction for you and that he does not revert to the rewritten history. I only hope that those of us who are so far behind you in all of this can get to where you are one day, in terms of detachment certainly, but also in terms of a possible reconciliation.
xx
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S&D,
I was rereading your original questions and had some more thoughts if you don't mind: I was wondering myself about this issue of why the MLCer starts to come around, back to the LBS and marriage and so forth. I have to start out by saying that my H has always known, acknowledged, that he is in an MLC, right from the BD. It's not always something he's been comfortable saying but he said it first, before I even knew that was the issue. So perhaps he's a little different than most in terms of at least a general knowledge of what's eating him. We have been able to talk about a lot throughout this thing, more than many others I think, though there was about 12 or more months where we couldn't talk about anything..but I digress.
So, I asked him fairly recently why the change in attitude towards me (probably not a good idea to ask but sometimes I just don't care to be careful). At any rate, he said that a lot of it was my tellling him how he had been taking me, the marriage, for granted and that he had a lot to be thankful for and realizing I was right.
Now here's the thing: I only believe that about 10%. I honestly think that his MLC is moving forward and that those words of mine only sunk in because he is indeed moving forward. I don't believe, wait, I KNOW, those same words made no difference at all two years ago because I surely said the same things then...and nothing changed at that time.
What I think mattered more was his own progress which I can't explain, and my detachment. He sensed it and knows detachment is NOT me...at all. So, what that means is that your original question of why or how the MLCer starts to be fond of the spouse again and stops rewriting history is something that still alludes me. I do believe there was one thing I did that made a difference and that was last August. I was in the begging and pleading stage and asked what I needed to change to make him happy again etc. I've written of this before but long story short, his answers were so insulting and outrageous, I just stopped it all right there and told him he was picking on me for fun and that I would never, ever again ask him what I could do for him or what he didn't like about me. And I haven't, and I will not. In fact, I told him that I liked me, I was not about to change for him or anyone and if he didn't like that, he could do you know what.
What I think that episode did was to show him I was on longer going to disrespect myself and if he wanted to disrespect me, it would not be at my invitation. I truly think that changed some things. I will admit to having groveled here and there in other ways since then and it never, ever, ever works....so I am not nearly as good at detachment and I seem to have made people think...I wish I was, I still work at it and even last night, I saw MLC man coming out again. So, I'm back to detachment again today and should have known better then to let my guard down at all, this early.
I do think that not accepting thier lies and r-writing is key. I don't think arguing it is worth it but just saying "bullsh*t" and walk away is good. They have to know we can't be walked on though I do believe in picking one's battles.
I did not feel good this morning about where he "is" but that changes all the time and I certainly have more luck at accepting it now than I did awhile back but it remains the hardest thing I've ever done.
DGU, I go back and forth as to whether it's good that he has no recall of some things or not but I know some things I have really have forgiven, other things, I have not. That I've been able to get over some things he said during peak replay, wow, I surprise myself. Forgivenss is unfortunately not my strong suit.
I thank you for your good thoughts and hope I helped just a little!
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Your words didn't sink in two years ago because he was probably in full Replay then....although they may have planted seeds. I think his own progress did matter more.....that's MLC.
Suprising yourself about getting over some of the things he said during peak Replay is, I believe, evidence of the growth within you pertaining to the Unconditionals.....love, grace....and yes, even forgiveness. I believe it's these reasons that, should your marriage come back together, it will be stronger because you are both emotionally stronger.
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Well aware that the purpose of this site is to support those LBS who are Standers, however i couldn't help but comment on LetttingGo's earlier thread about dating and "you will meet someone". Let me say that I am now divorced for almost a year, I've dated 30+ people and there has not been one (not one) that has not been a train wreck/MLCer or some guy just out there to get la*d. Most men want to date a woman in the 25-38 age range, someone who could be their daughters age. And they are serious that this is what they want! No idea what experience others have had; I screen closely and extensively, and the fact is that in the 50+ age group, your prospects are abysmal at best. I would always have preferred to take my xH back, but recognizing that xH is so mired in his own tragic life, I wanted to take control of my destiny. Educated, very well employed, good looking, slender: The prospects are very poor for finding someone. Consult any literature or marketing research on the same subject and you will find confirmation of my acendotal evidence. Taking the xH back is likely to be the best offer one will get; then an LBS gets to decide to "take it or leave it".
I do hate to be so negative, but midlife dating is somewhat akin to swimming in a cesspool.
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DGU,
You are completely right and I don't in any way think a lightbulb went off in H's head...it is his own progress though the tunnel. I think truth darts plant seeds but they are as much for our own "getting it off our chest" as anything.
Speaking to the original questions was good analytical thinking for me. And I will never stand for history revision though my H, being a low energy type, did not do as much revising as many.
I look forward to his emotional growth. I do hope I see it though I've yet to. I don't equate his growth with his moving along the tunnel but I'm glad for that as well.
Melanie,
Not surprised by what you wrote. If my marriage fell all the way apart, I would not be on the dating scene as I have had enough crap to last me a lifetime.
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Most men want to date a woman in the 25-38 age range, someone who could be their daughters age. And they are serious that this is what they want!
Well I am not up to dating yet but I can tell you that the group you mentioned will be the last one that I want.
I do not want to go through another round of MLC with someone else.
My wife is the same age as me,
so maybe she will be in trouble but I don't want to be with someone that has not yet completed this journey.
Thats MHO!
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OP - that is funny (and understandable). I am in my mid-thirties, so if H ever comes back, maybe I can pay him back with an MLC of my own (I jest)...