Midlife Crisis: Support for Left Behind Spouses
Archives => Archived Topics => Topic started by: OldPilot on November 12, 2014, 07:41:35 AM
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New thread
Last thread
http://mlcforum.theherosspouse.com/index.php?topic=2625.0
I thought I would add the stages of grief that we all go through with a relationship breakup.
1. Shock: "What the hell just happened?"
2. Denial: "This is so not happening."
3. Isolation: "I just want to sit in this all by myself."
4. Anger: "I hate you for breaking my heart!"
5. Bargaining: "What will it take to get him/her back?"
6. Depression: "I will never get over him/her."
7. Acceptance: "I understand why I was with him/her, why I'm not now, and that I will be better than just OK."
Some keep it a bit simpler:
1. Denial
2. Anger
3. Bargaining
4. Depression
5. Acceptance
Several versions actually... but we all definitely go through them.
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attaching
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I'm on board... waiting for the next part. Thanks for setting up the new link OP.
Hugs Stayed
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I found this song right after BD and it fit exactly how I was feeling--
By The Script
"Exit Wounds"
Lose your clothes and show your scars that's who you are
Marks of battle, they still feel raw
A million pieces of me, on the floor
Wow, Thunder, this composer has been there. I think these lyrics reflect why I was so obsessed with getting the stabbed-in-the-heart tattoo. I hurt so badly there had to be some sort of mark somewhere--literally an "exit wound".
I shudder as I recall those early days, weeks, with nah bringing back memories. I don't know how we all make it through to here, that there aren't more casualties. I truly lost my mind, I didn't know how I would ever make the pain stop, make the nightmare stop, make the world right again.
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I think these lyrics reflect why I was so obsessed with getting the stabbed-in-the-heart tattoo. I hurt so badly there had to be some sort of mark somewhere--literally an "exit wound".
I shudder as I recall those early days, weeks, with nah bringing back memories. I don't know how we all make it through to here, that there aren't more casualties. I truly lost my mind, I didn't know how I would ever make the pain stop, make the nightmare stop, make the world right again.
I was wondering about your nickname. Curious-did you REALLY get that tattoo? The only reason I ask, is I have NO TATTOOS what-so-ever, but had thought about getting one on occasion; I am ex-Navy after all LOL. After BD, I SERIOUSLY contemplated getting one of an icy-blue cold heart on my chest. I thought that was really strange of me to seriously consider it.
-Terrified
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I swear, tats are a right of passage for us! I got mine--a whisk to honor my mom--about a year after BD. My first physical change, though, was getting my navel pierced. Since the navel is at our identity chakra, it was quite literally my FU to the Marine Corps and one Marine in specific. I'd always wanted to do that, by a nice Marine Officers wife could not possibly have a pierced navel! :o
A friend of mine who survived MLC warned me I was going to find myself doing some really strange things. Boy was she right!
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I swear, tats are a right of passage for us!...
And sometimes possibly the MLCer as well? I know my w got her very FIRST (and so far only at the moment) tattoo shortly before BD. She would probably have more by now, but OM told her he doesn't like girls with tats, even though he looks like a damn canvas he is so "painted" up.
-Terrified
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I swear, tats are a right of passage for us! I got mine--a whisk to honor my mom--about a year after BD. My first physical change, though, was getting my navel pierced. Since the navel is at our identity chakra, it was quite literally my FU to the Marine Corps and one Marine in specific. I'd always wanted to do that, by a nice Marine Officers wife could not possibly have a pierced navel! :o
A friend of mine who survived MLC warned me I was going to find myself doing some really strange things. Boy was she right!
Medusa, I love your attitude,...
I swear, tats are a right of passage for us!...
And sometimes possibly the MLCer as well? I know my w got her very FIRST (and so far only at the moment) tattoo shortly before BD. She would probably have more by now, but OM told her he doesn't like girls with tats, even though he looks like a damn canvas he is so "painted" up.
-Terrified
Yes, Tattoos is part of the checklist, isn't it? I don't mind a few (I got one on a dare when I was eighteen) and my husband had my name on his arm (should have been a sign when he covered it with a multitude of others ::) ) but now he is covered and looks stupid. He is a 50 year old man with sleeves and tatts running up his legs... what a toolbag.
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I was wondering about your nickname. Curious-did you REALLY get that tattoo?
LOL! My kids (S-29 & S-25 at the time) were appalled, so I told them I would wait six months. My DIL who has three pretty prominent tattoos (seems almost required in that age group, although both sons have none), talked about the wisdom of having a "break-up" tattoo. I have to admit that part of the appeal was imagining my H returning & having to look at that knife-in-the-heart tat on my chest.
The next step (of healing?) was to consider a pretty bleeding heart flower on my left chest. Still meaningful, but not in-your-face. But I'm in the age group where cartoon Maxine saying "I'd get a tattoo if I had any skin tight enough to write on" makes sense. So, I haven't gotten it, but it's not completely off the table.
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lol I wonder what there is about tattoo's and LBS's. The only reason I do not have a Māori upper arm band, was the lady I was going to go with, didn't turn up. My self esteem and confidence were so low at that time, that I hung around the tattoo shop for a couple hours looking at the pictures, but could not work up the nerve to TALK to the person on the desk. Crazy eh? I became this extremely "shy" introvert, for several months after BD. Never been shy in my life... :-[ Looking back ... it still makes me sad! Man, I want to look within myself simply to try and figure out what in the world caused that?
Anyway, I never got it done. So my skin is still tat free!
Hugs Stayed
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Back of the shoulder always stays tight.... I have a blue rose :)
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I have 2, both related to times with my w. I will be getting a 3rd regardless of the outcome. Sometimes you have to make your scars visable. Thank goodness I never liked name tats!
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My whisk is on my ankle. I will never be embarassed by it because its for my mom. And I think I'm pretty safe that my ankles will never get that fat! ;)
lol I wonder what there is about tattoo's and LBS's. The only reason I do not have a Māori upper arm band, was the lady I was going to go with, didn't turn up. My self esteem and confidence were so low at that time, that I hung around the tattoo shop for a couple hours looking at the pictures, but could not work up the nerve to TALK to the person on the desk. Crazy eh? I became this extremely "shy" introvert, for several months after BD. Never been shy in my life... :-[ Looking back ... it still makes me sad! Man, I want to look within myself simply to try and figure out what in the world caused that?
I think tats are just more popular and accepted, now. I never thought I would get one, but when my D wanted us to get identical ones for Mom, I couldn't say no.
As far as becoming introverted, I think because we are so hurt and have been told we are unworthy that we really doubt ourselves for awhile. I know I did. I'm naturally pretty gregarious, but the devastation of BD did a real number on me. I was scared to do much of anything. It was a huge deal for me to go to a movie by myself. I just knew everyone was judging me as that poor lady who had to go alone. Same with taking myself out for dinner. Never bothered me when I was traveling for business, but OMG, doing it in the town where I live where someone I know might see me? Horrors! My confidence was gone, and it took awhile to rebuild it.
BTW, I, not saying that introverts lack confidence. True introverts versus temporary introversion (is that a word?) are two different animals for me.
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Attaching.
It's funny I was thinking of getting a tattoo too but I'm too scared of the pain lol
A lovely butterfly of some description because from the chrysalis comes a beautiful butterfly. ( eventually i hope lol ) x
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I like
Shatering
Internalizing
Lifting
Suffering gives me the idea that whole stage, that tends to be a rather long one, is
nothing but suffering. MLC is a little different than just grief. Internalizing allows
for it all, the suffering, the acceptance, the joy that we also have during such
phase.
Perhaps you are waiting for your divorce to CONFIRM resolution? You are a very pragmatic thinker, this would make sense to me, that once the divorce is complete, you will have your resolution and be able to move on with your life. Hopefully, starting new relationship and life.
Yes, I think so. Even if the divorce is just a legal formality that needs to be done. Maybe it is more the fact that I have no idea when it will happen? And maybe a new relationship will come along before the divorce is final. It is sort of "on the air".
Perhaps I should define how I see the expression MOVING ON. To me, that expression simply means healing, recovering, able to have a life. Able to view life with enthusiasm and eagerness. It did not mean, able to find a new partner. The idea of a new partner terrified me, although I refused to take ANYTHING off the table.
Agree, moving on for me also means healing, recovering, able to have a live. A new relationship is not a mandatory part of moving on. For some it will include someone new, for others it will not. The idea of finding a new partner never terrified me. Quite the contrary, it was a very fascinating and interesting idea. And I did find partners, but only for a short time. Maybe that was all it was needed at the time.
No tattoos for me. I like inkless skin, even if I have nothing against people having tattoos. Mr J talked about doing a tattoo but I have no idea if he had or had not done it.
I become and über extroverted. I was the party girl and the super social creature. Introverts, at least speaking for myself, do not lack confidence, it is just that we tend to be more cerebral and process things quietly. But like everyone else I have both side, introvert and extrovert. But if anything they have become more balanced.
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I agree, a true introvert is not boring or uncommunicative. They tend to communicate when they have something they want to say. They are selective about who they share their company and words with. Nothing wrong with that. The thing is, I had never been even slightly introverted or shy... ever. I guess a better way to describe myself at that time, would TIMID/AFRAID.
It was a good thing I went away, because I couldn't hide away in New Zealand, there was nobody to talk, or get things for me. I think most of us subconsciously know what we need to do for ourselves.
Weird...hugs Stayed
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I become and über extroverted. I was the party girl and the super social creature.
According to my IC, its vey normal for this kind of thing to happen when relationships end, especially long ones. Once I got through my hiding period, I went a bit nuts...out until all hours. That lasted a few months and then I just settled down. It was part of the process of learning to be alone. For awhile I couldn't stand it. I work from home and and am alone much of the day. I think most of us subconsciously know what we need to do for ourselves.
Agreed, even if we don't realize it at the time. I think its part of the initial healing process. For me, I had to relearn how to laugh. No way I was going to be able to do that staring at the TV or reading a book...I need the distraction of other human beings in a social setting. The only thing I was conscious of was that I needed to be around human beings other than S20.
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Yes, introverts talk about what they have in interest to and are selective about who we share our company and words with. But we can be big talkies and we are fun. Out I notice is that even in the height of my super social creature mode I always needed some time on my own.
But those were excellent times for me. I got to interact with many people with many different backgrounds, do lots of things I had not done before. All good, all living and learning.
I think most of us subconsciously know what we need to do for ourselves.
Agree.
According to my IC, its vey normal for this kind of thing to happen when relationships end, especially long ones. Once I got through my hiding period, I went a bit nuts...out until all hours.
Yes, I think it is a common thing for people in long relationships.
I didn’t have the initial hiding period, it was straight to out until the wee hours, sometimes 7 days a week. That period of extra exuberance is probably necessary for our development.
Later it was not so much hiding but a need to be on my own. I like solitude, I’m fine reading a book, gazing at the stars, going for a walk alone, watch a movie of a tv series on my own.
But now I need to start incorporating a little bit of the über extrovert. Not to that extent, of course, just a little bit.
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Yes, introverts talk about what they have in interest to and are selective about who we share our company and words with. But we can be big talkies and we are fun. Out I notice is that even in the height of my super social creature mode I always needed some time on my own.
I have come to love introverts. S20 is one, and when he talks, he is so darn interesting! The man I'm married to is also one, and once he is comfortable, you can't shut him up, I told him, long before BD that when he's in a social situation is finally is comfortable, he's as bad as my dad, who is the classic extrovert. I got the most beautiful grin...almost makes me miss that guy!
When I was transitioning from the need to be out all the time to balance, I did days of watching various BBC costume dramas. I got mad when I ran out of them. I didn't read for about a year. It's just been in the last few months that I've rediscovered that particular passion.
I do think we need to go through a crazy time to rediscover ourselves, no matter if we are introverts or extroverts. It seems to be part of our personal development.
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I do think we need to go through a crazy time to rediscover ourselves, no matter if we are introverts or extroverts. It seems to be part of our personal development.
Indeed. And the same is true of our MLCers. The difference is they take forever to transition and integrate the parts.
The real Mr J is, I think, a little less introverted than me, but he is more shy. He is also more emotional, anxious and more creative than me, I'm more analytical/logical.
All in all we were a good match. Until, of course, MLC insany come knowking on the door. ::)
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Attaching
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Attaching
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According to my IC, its vey normal for this kind of thing to happen when relationships end, especially long ones.
Interesting. I am a classic introvert. Almost to the point of being a hermit. In the 17 years where I have worked, I have NEVER talked about my personal life at all. Kept it strictly business. Now after the MLC wife, I will talk to ANYONE who will listen to my story. I have opened up to a few different people at work for the first time, and what I have discovered is...I actually work with a great bunch of caring people! Even if the overall place is a zoo.
I too find I want to get out so bad. Its not like me though. But I'm not a "bar" person, and I don't really know where to go LOL. Also, there is D16 to think of. I do remember a recent conversation where she told me that she misses hanging out with her friends; although she spends a little too much time with her bf I think...anyway I asked her why didn't she get out and do things with her friends, and she said "Then you would end up here all alone." Sweet, but concerning. I told her "What makes you think I will be here alone. Maybe I want to get out to." Of course as I said, I really don't have any place to go LOL.
-Terrified
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I did lots of things with my D - saw a lot of movies, bookstores, toy stores, zoo, restaurants. That saved me from going crazy. I also met a few standers in nearby cities that had kids and would spend a weekend with them. Helped immensely as they were the only ones who understood. Also met some by phone and one in particular I carry on conversations with 4-5 times a week. We're now at 3 years of this. I went to my brothers house and hung out with his family rather than being alone. I went to a game night once a week at a friends house. No marriage discussion, just trying to have fun. I got a gym membership and spent time there. Went for walks.
Just get out and do something.
Best
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I have 2, both related to times with my w. I will be getting a 3rd regardless of the outcome. Sometimes you have to make your scars visable. Thank goodness I never liked name tats!
If you change your mind, I think NAH would look great across your chest... ;D ;D ;D
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Now after the MLC wife, I will talk to ANYONE who will listen to my story. I have opened up to a few different people at work for the first time, and what I have discovered is...I actually work with a great bunch of caring people!
Funny, the title of this thread is called "stages" and you never see this listed specifically but I notice LBSers have talked about this before. When husband first left, I was afraid to talk to anybody, even close friends. Then I started talking to close friends but not acquaintances. I would read this forum but not write anything....for months.
Then I exploded. I talked to anybody and everybody that would listen. The neighbors, coworkers, hairdresser, strangers, it didn't matter....If they would listen, I would talk, talk, talk,...lol
Now I vent and discuss basically only on this forum. If something different comes up (like husband calling, or my son telling me it's stressful over husbands house) I will discuss with boyfriend and maybe a close friend, but other than that, it's old news, I have other things going on in my life.
I didn't really think about it at the time, I just did what came natural. I think this is why the LBSers heal faster than the MLCers. We attack the problem, they run away. However, at some point a person either has to deal with it or die miserable.
I still care for my husband very much and I do hope he finds his way, not necessarily back to me just back.
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I also went through the talk to anyone who will listen period. I'm sometimes surprised that my friends are still my friends!
Now, I vent here and on the ALT. When something happens, I post and talk to one of my best friends. She knows that's just my need to get it out. I still care for my husband very much and I do hope he finds his way, not necessarily back to me just back.
Mostly the same except for me there is no not necessarily.
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I'm sometimes surprised that my friends are still my friends!
I know what you mean, wow, I just couldn't stop.
It's true, these are the times you really find out who they are. Some came out of the woodwork and I am so grateful to them. Some that I would have expected more, (and I was there for them at their times of need)
I am disappointed in my SIL most of all. Weeks after BD, she came over to talk to me (she thought I left him and I told her the truth). She was furious with him, and I had to calm HER down. She stormed out of my house and said she would call me in the morning. She never talked to me again. Now I was not only crushed bc of BD, she sent me further into a downward spiral.
I use to watch her kids full time, she was much closer to me than to husband. I tried calling, sent messages, nothing. She completely turned her back on me and I don't know why. Then, first Christmas w/o husband, she invites my daughter to her house and only my daughter (not me and not my son). So first Christmas my family was completely shattered in pieces. I don't think I can ever forgive her for that.
So for the ramble, it just came out. :-[
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Sorry not "so"...stupid spellcheck. >:(
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The talking to everyone phase is probably following on from the rejection phase suggested. It's a way of checking that we are real and the need for human contact is so essential for our emotional survival.
I have a slightly different take on introvert and extrovert though. Introverts are not always quiet people - they just reflect on things inwardly. Extroverts reflect outwardly in that they share things with people. Introverts can enjoy a party just as much as an extrovert - they will just respond differently. Introverts listen more and extroverts talk more.
At times of difficulty and crisis though both types can react the same way - they will just eventually handle the fall out differently.
I used to think I was an extrovert as I talk for the UK, laugh loudly, appear gregarious and upbeat....
But I rarely used to go to parties that much because I do not like it when people who get drunk and boisterous. I did not have the confidence to sit with anyone at any time and chose sometimes not to because I am useless at small talk. I would join a group and just listen nodding and smiling or frowning accordingly. It was also an indication of my low self esteem.
Yes I told everyone about this crisis in the first few months but now I keep it very private (except for here) and only vent at my sister or a very good male friend. If people ask I just say "same old same old...."
So I think I have moved from extrovert actions to more thoughtful ones. I am more introverted in some ways and perhaps always was but compensated because of my low self esteem. It is not possible to switch fully from introvert to extrovert and vice versa.
Perhaps this movement from talking to not talking is part of the phase of LBS journey because we are learning to reflect and consider our true selves. It is also an indication of the passage of time in this process and part of our understanding of detachment.
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when h told me he was moving out i would just say whatever i wanted to complete strangers. don't ask me how my day is cause i was going to tell you lol my daughter could not stop laughing. i still do that sometimes. i did it once when h was with me. it was funny to watch him squirm for a bit.
i went out a few times but i was never really one for going out like that much. i just stopped doing things i really liked to do. i stopped beading, painting, watching my shows. i just stopped. then i got tired of being in that space and i am doing things again. i am going to start reading again too. haven't read in a long time.
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I never told anybody other then my kids, my mother and my siblings, until just before he returned actually. A friend of ours, dropped dead from a massive heart attack. Horrific experience, 54 years old, had retired from the military a couple of years prior to that, was doing consultancy work and a contract job with the government. His wife had just completed her Teaching Degree. They were really enjoying their life. Their only child was in her 2nd year of University. Big as life type of guy, so much fun, real zest for life. GONE!
My h was here in Luxembourg, so did not attend. I went to the wake, to his funeral and to his huge memorial held for him at the Military hanger. Hundreds of people there. Saw people I hadn't seen in years. This was approximately 9 months after BD.
That was the first time it ever passed my lips. "My husband has left me"! I kept the tears back, somehow! It was awful, most of the people I told simply had no idea what to say. I guess I should have chose a different place to come out about my situation. To their credit, they didn't ask any questions. They expressed their amazement. Not one of them ran away from me... hehehe. I'm sure they desperately wanted to. The floodgates opened up after that.
I was looking at the Stages, could it be part of trying to get past the "denial"? Convincing ourselves that this was INDEED happening?
Hugs Stayed
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when h told me he was moving out i would just say whatever i wanted to complete strangers. don't ask me how my day is cause i was going to tell you
hahaha...love it!!
it was funny to watch him squirm for a bit.
A few months ago we had to meet at the sprint store to change the kids bills to his account (hey, their adults, I'm not paying...lol) anyways he couldn't remember his password and he wrote his favorite hobby but couldn't remember that either :o We both guessed "hockey?" wrong. "music?" wrong. "motorcycling?" wrong.
I so so so wanted to say "sleeping with young girls??" It was on the tip of my tongue lol
At that point I wanted to build his confidence for a good relationship so I didn't. :-X
It would have been funny, though, still laughing thinking about it.
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I so so so wanted to say "sleeping with young girls??" It was on the tip of my tongue lol
Priceless! The talking to everyone phase is probably following on from the rejection phase suggested. It's a way of checking that we are real and the need for human contact is so essential for our emotional survival.
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So I think I have moved from extrovert actions to more thoughtful ones. I am more introverted in some ways and perhaps always was but compensated because of my low self esteem. It is not possible to switch fully from introvert to extrovert and vice versa.
Perhaps this movement from talking to not talking is part of the phase of LBS journey because we are learning to reflect and consider our true selves. It is also an indication of the passage of time in this process and part of our understanding of detachment.
I like this idea of checking that we are reaching out to other human beings for our emotional needs.
Like you, S&D, I'm finding a balance between introvert and extrovert. By nature I'm more extroverted, but I have become much more thoughtful and am definitely a better laid tenet than I used to be.
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Nah,
that made me laugh out loud.
I think our kids go through stages just as we do. My children have gone through their processing a lot faster than I have I think. One child keeps returning through them. He is more like me that way so I understand why he has not processed this as fast as his siblings.
I have 3 children. One is at the detatched stage. One is flip flopping between detaching and wanting him home and the other one is stuck in wanting/anger. It is a mild anger right now. Thankfully. He has had full blown anger and it is usually directed at me. It is hard to say what degree is normal teenage behaviour and what has been brought on by the lovely MLC.
I would say that I keep returning to different stages as my husband's behaviour escalated or subsided. I don't think I have ever completed a full stage. I have never entered the anger stage at all. That scares me.
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blackice,
You made me laugh. I was the same way. Even my dentist knew all about my life. LOL
Now I keep it to myself but back in the beginning I told everyone....didn't matter if they asked or not. ::)
Funny thing was when I told the cashier at a liquor store she was going through the same thing. We talked for an hour comparing notes. She had never heard of MLC and was shocked when I asked questions about her H and hit things perfectly.
This is bigger than we know.
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This is giving me a lot of giggles!
But yea, MLC is everywhere! I think it's an epidemic! I really wonder what the country is going to do, when it starts COSTING a fortune, because I do think there are going to be some heavy expenses attached to this. Just like smoking/drugs/obesity/aids.
The governments, medical society etc. will stick their heads in the sand until they can't ignore it anymore. Of course they will wait until it is rampant and way out of control. Stupid! You really would think we would learn, wouldn't you?
Hugs Stayed
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i was at the dollar store and the cashier was asking about my day and i just kind of made a noise and she goes bad day huh? i looked at her and said, bad month, bad year, bad life, you choose. my husband just left me for a fetus.
yeah.
me and h were at the store and he was getting me a membership card in my name since ow never activated her so he gave me hers instead and the woman was asking what was going on and i looked at him then i looked at her and i said well, you really don't want to know. let's just say i am not the girlfriend and this story is better than days of our lives. to which he just stood there and mumbled yeah, you don't want to know.
i don't let him get away with it. it's fun sometimes.
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LMAOL here in Luxembourg! Omg!! Love that!
hugs Stayed
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i don't let him get away with it. it's fun sometimes.
I wish normal husband was around just so we could make fun of MLC husband, he more than anybody would think this new guy is a complete tool.
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my h called himself a douchebag the other day. i just looked at him and said well ok then.
he knows he is being an idiot which makes this even more fun for me when i can catch him on something and he happens to be in the mood to not get upset about it.
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You guys are killing me! Nah, mine would be laughing at the new H too. Especially the shaving of the gray hair thing. lol
I mean, come on...shaving your chest???? Who does that? Oh yeah, an MLCer. ;D
I'm having fun with this but I'm only kidding. It's quite sad.
But laughing about it today is good for the soul.
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laughter is the best medicine. in my culture we laugh about a lot of things to get through the pain. it's healing in a way, just like crying is healing in it's own way.
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You guys are killing me! Nah, mine would be laughing at the new H too. Especially the shaving of the gray hair thing. lol
I mean, come on...shaving your chest???? Who does that? Oh yeah, an MLCer. ;D
I'm having fun with this but I'm only kidding. It's quite sad.
But laughing about it today is good for the soul.
Shaving his chest?...Please, mine had me shave his f'n back three days before BD. Yep, I shaved his back so he would look good for her. I also had to pluck his ear hair. Lucky for me, he plucked his own eyebrows ::)
Yep, you can't make this $hit up.
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Yep, mine started shaving front, back and #*hmm! How could I not of known :o :o :o :o
Seriously ...Stayed It is so hard to imagine you as an introvert :):):)
Also, back from the first thread. I don't know my BD date either Stayed and am kind of glad ! I know it was summer, July or August and I remember "the walk" we took :'(
nah your right, can't make this s*$t up!!
Just following along!
31andcounting
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the only reason i remember my BD date is because it was my birthday weekend. yeah. nice.
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I only remember because it was the day after New Years, 2011. Christmas and New Years were great! Then my world crumbled.
It was like talking to some man who I never met before. He looked like my H but those EYES!! Black and dead. Same voice but the words coming out of his mouth were NOT my H's.
shiver
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BD for me is the day Mr J left. I don't recall the exact time he first taked divorced. Somewhere during the Summer of 2006. I never heard the I Love You But I'm Not In Love With You, just recall a things are not working, I think we should divorce.
In fact I was assured that the issues was not that Mr J did not loved me or has stop being in love with me, it had to do with the fact that he had to do "this". This, I think, being having a MLC.
Of course a point come when there were divorcable offenses, those were, "I can never win an argument with you" (not true, he can), "You are more intelligent that I am" (true if we are talking of pure intellectual inteligence but I also was 20 years before and for 20 years that was never a problem), "You have no feelings, you never cry, you don't even cry on people's funeral" (true, I rarely cry but I have feelings, I have just never expressed them with crying. of course I cry, rarely but I do).
So that was it. ::) All very terrible things that have been exactly the same way since we meet and for 20 years. ::)
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I only remember BD Day as it was HIS birthday. At first it wasn't ILYBINILWY. It was that he had decided that I didn't love HIM anymore. So of course I fell for all of the "faults" and tried to fix or discuss them but darned if in a weeks it turned out that it wasn't really all of those things he had said after all. It was ILYBINILWY. It was looking up what that phrase "really meant" that I found this site.
Before that i was looking up surviving adultry type sites and found the 180 thing and started doing it just out of survival. And yes--running the other way did perk his interest and he actually decided to come back but it only lasted 2 days.
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In fact I was assured that the issues was not that Mr J did not loved me or has stop being in love with me, it had to do with the fact that he had to do "this". This, I think, being having a MLC.
That is interesting Anjae - I never got the ILYBINILWY either and it has always made wonder about it being MLC. I was also reassured that H loved me and would always love me, that this was something that he had to do! I don't know what he would say today.
My BD is easy to remember - 2 days before Christmas :o
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I got "There's still love in there but it's not enough". Huh? And then I got, "I need to is you". Pray tell, how can you miss me when you're f*cking someone else?
And yet now I kind of get those phrases. There is still love there for the old guy...just nothing for who he is now. And missing him...nope. Not at all. Maybe reconciliation would be an option if I did miss him.
I remember BD date clearly. There was nothing special about that day (other than my world imploded).
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Lol, mine wanted BOTH of us! hehehe...caught between two lovers... don't you know? ::)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VfCd4zqeveE my husband, the "true" romantic. He told me, he used to listen to this song and cry. He just thought it was the most ROMANTIC song he ever heard. Uggh, I hate this song!
Lol 31, no kidding eh, me an introvert, hehehe?? Shock does some pretty weird things to a person! As I said, I was in a pretty bad way. Nobody as surprised as me, tbh... so much for Mrs. ToughA$$! :(
Hugs Stayed
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I didn't get the speech til he was gone. He just went to work one day and didn't come home. I thought he was just taking a few day break. He had done it before when we fought in the past.
I had just started a new temp job and had to go through that. I remember finally getting an answer from him when I was driving home from work. He wouldn't talk to me,or text. I got nothing and then he finally gave me the speech. I was pulled over on the side of the road down the street from my new job. I was told I was a b!tc#,it had to do with the crisis I went through,I didn't like his hobbies,we did nothing together but go out to eat and we had nothing in common.
I have always been a person who liked to be home. I am pretty quiet and like being with my family. I did read a lot,worked in my gardens and had started doing stained glass a few years before when he was deployed.
I stayed in my home when he left. I wanted people home with me. I would freak out if left alone even for short periods of time. I would go to the store and rush right home. I read stuff about crisis but that's all I could handle. Everything stopped. I could go mad cleaning house sometimes but didn't care about a lot. I couldn't even bare to cook. I mostly sat in my chair in the living room wrapped in a blanket.
A few times I tried going out with my sister to bars. She and her friends were all into the party. All of them without men. Most of them from bad relationships. I felt so out of place. I remember at one place my sister was dancing and someone came up to me telling me a guy was interested in talking or whatever. I was totally disgusted. I wanted nothing to do with any men,especially some bar loser. I mostly stayed off in a corner drinking. I couldn't wait to go home but thought isn't this what single women do. Um no not this woman.
So I stayed home. I didn't want to be around outsiders. I felt like I had some bad aura around me. I still have trouble reading books. I can sit and look at magazines but anything that takes time forget it. Oh and one more thing. When he left I was taking a couple of medical classes. A lot of studying. I passed with an A and B. How I did it I don't know but I was determined to not fail them.
I did end up checking myself into the hospital too. I need to drive when I get anxious. Only problem was I had gotten to the point where I wanted to drive into a tree. The urge was real bad. I couldn't leave my kids or grandkids. They had gone through too much.
A little while after he left my youngest son was either 19 or 20. He has custody of his son who was two I think. This son got in a minor car accident with the grandson in the back seat. He left his car and got a ride home then went back. An odd behavior. I had suspected him of drug use. I found out him leaving his car had something to do with drugs.
Things got worse. I kept seeing him acting odd. He had ended a relationship. I thought he was addicted to oxy.,but then was hit with the fact it was heroin. I made him go to the hospital. It was either that or I call the cops. So I got to take care of a two year old ,deal with a heroin addict and deal with the $hit from his dad. What a mess.
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Anjae,
I never got the not love you either. It was more that we had become like roommates, grown apart and he wasn't happy in our marriage anymore.
I even said one time....how do you just fall out of love with someone like this? He looked at me and said,,,who ever said I don't love you?
::)
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Lol, mine wanted BOTH of us! hehehe...caught between two lovers... don't you know? ::)
Mine once said he wished we could move to Utah. :o
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mine wanted us both too. we were all going to live together like one happy family...um no.
i got the i never loved you speech, that turned into the i loved you but now i don't, that then became i love you but i have buried my feelings for you and trying to feel them again scares me, to i love you and i always will, to you are the only one who really has my heart and i love you and will never let you go.
yet he still isn't here. cause he's rolling in his own mess.
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Mine did say a few times that I never really loved him.
So I guess being together for almost 30 years is no indication that I really loved him. ::)
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mine wanted us both too. we were all going to live together like one happy family...um no.
Wow - I got this too. He really thought that he could have both of us and eventually have us together :o He would tell me that he has enough love for both of us!
Talk about living in fantasyland ::)
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Sorry S4A, I had to chuckle a bit. Pretty bold of him.
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BatSh*t Crazy!!! Can't make this up right Stayed :o :o :o
Yikes!
31
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Just for the record because I'm not proud of it, I told W I would stay if I could remain friends and stay in contact with OW.
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MeNow, mine said the same thing to me too.
he also said to me one time when he was trying to come home that he thought i didn't love him anymore which is why he went looking for someone else and now he knew it wasn't true it was tearing him up.
why would i stay with someone if i didn't love them, i am not that desperate for companionship.
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I would say as an excuse.
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MeNow, mine said the same thing to me too.
he also said to me one time when he was trying to come home that he thought i didn't love him anymore which is why he went looking for someone else and now he knew it wasn't true it was tearing him up.
why would i stay with someone if i didn't love them, i am not that desperate for companionship.
Same. It's all about them justifying to themselves.
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MeNow,
REALLY?? LOL
I'm sure it made perfect sense at the time, huh? ;D
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MeNow,
REALLY?? LOL
I'm sure it made perfect sense at the time, huh? ;D
hehehehe... lmaoohiluxembourg!
Perfect sense, I am sure! Hugs Stayed...
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Mine also suggested that we get together with OW and all be friends and please each other. If he brings that up again, I am going to tell him to go ahead and ask her what she thinks. Then laugh at the big knot on his head where she has thrown something really heavy at him.
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Just to say that we have snuck rather craftily back onto what our MLCers say and not us.......
There are so many other threads that we can discuss the MLCer - let's try and keep this one special just for us!!
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OOps, you are right S&D. Sorry!
Hugs Stayed
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Anger has set in. I am absolutely disgusted with H. Apathy is following, I have moments where I am to exhausted, disgusted and resigned to care about him. For me this is a good place. Each day is better than the last. I focus on myself and my kids.
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MeNow,
REALLY?? LOL
I'm sure it made perfect sense at the time, huh? ;D
Actually it didn't. I just didn't want to give up OW.
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Just to say that we have snuck rather craftily back onto what our MLCers say and not us.......
There are so many other threads that we can discuss the MLCer - let's try and keep this one special just for us!!
Craftily? I say rather openly!
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So Blindside, what stage do you think you are in now?
1. Shock: "What the hell just happened?"
2. Denial: "This is so not happening."
3. Isolation: "I just want to sit in this all by myself."
4. Anger: "I hate you for breaking my heart!"
5. Bargaining: "What will it take to get him/her back?"
6. Depression: "I will never get over him/her."
7. Acceptance: "I understand why I was with him/her, why I'm not now, and that I will be better than just OK."
And how are you handling it? I'm thinking your a bit angry Blindsided. With good reason, but what are you going to do with it?
Question for our resident expert OP, or Ziggy, is there any way we can have these stages up there in he title or something... they should be visible at all times... don't you think?
Hugs Stayed
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Is it possible to be in all those stages at the same time? Cause I think I am. :o
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Is it possible to keep skipping a stage?
I never have hit the anger stage and maybe that is why I never get to the acceptance part of it all?
Thoughts?
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what stage do you think you are in now?
I firmly believe that I am in acceptance BUT for some reason I feel the pull of the other stages sometimes. I go for a long without thinking about what H has done and how he has treated me then my mind will bring up these things out of the blue. I don't really feel anything when this happens because I really don't care anymore but it seems strange to me. It is almost like mind is testing its resolve (if that makes any sense). Maybe it is a way for me to not forget what it is that I am dealing with seeing how H acts pretty normal most of t time.
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Is it possible to keep skipping a stage?
I never have hit the anger stage and maybe that is why I never get to the acceptance part of it all?
Thoughts?
I believe its possible to skip a stage, but if we do, at some point we will experience it.
The stages are similar in many ways to what the MLCer is going through. Many of them skipped a developmental stage and are now going through it. what stage do you think you are in now?
I firmly believe that I am in acceptance BUT for some reason I feel the pull of the other stages sometimes. I go for a long without thinking about what H has done and how he has treated me then my mind will bring up these things out of the blue. I don't really feel anything when this happens because I really don't care anymore but it seems strange to me. It is almost like mind is testing its resolve (if that makes any sense). Maybe it is a way for me to not forget what it is that I am dealing with seeing how H acts pretty normal most of t time.
I am the same, S4A. Feelings of irritation and, rarely, anger, come up with I have to interact with him because he's such a jerk. I think this is just our minds continuing to make sense out of what has/is happening.
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i believe i am in acceptance. not to say being in acceptance i do not still feel sadness over things. but i know i love him, i know i always will, and why we are not together now and i will be ok.
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Does anyone find that their personal empathy for the MLCer hinders your own progression through the stages? For 2.5 years I've been going through the stages, (not so much so now) but my empathy remains for him thru each one I have gone through.
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i don't think it has hindered me. it helps me understand what he is going through and in turn gives me strength to move forward knowing i am stronger because of it.
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:Thank you Blackice. I assume this is the Agape love for them. Though some may never realize they are damn lucky to have people that feel this type of love for them. For the first year and a half my stages swirled all over the place, in & out and back again. I work with mine, so I believe that kept me in a front row seating to the train wreck in progress. Probably not very healthy for me as I am very analytical and would pick apart everything. He finally filed for divorce this past August (even though he wanted this so badly) but has now stalled it as of yesterday.
The articles & story threads on this site have kept me sane. You are all a blessing to me.
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I bounce between stages. Mostly because I am not fully detached YET. I get so angry for the way he puts OW before his children. I also get mad because of the way he treats me, as non-existent. Logically I know it's him. I'm just having a hard time wrapping my head around MLC.
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The first year is the worst, I remember not sleeping, not eating and sometimes forgetting to breathe. Nothing felt normal. My thoughts would race through our years together trying to piece where and at what point I went wrong. Replaying past conversations and moments, constantly searching for an answer that would make sense of the senselessness of what he was saying. You didn't love me then, here or now? What? :'(
I have had some anger over the years but compared to the other stages, not much. Seems that it is always tempered with my empathy and love that I have for him. He doesn't get a free pass for his behavior from me or anything, but mostly I feel pity towards him. I believe that may be scarier than the anger.
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Blindsided, your h has MOVED so quickly, from out the door to divorce, I think you are still in SHOCK. I think you ricochet from SHOCK to ANGER and back again, over and over. It has all happed just so fast.
Have you a counselor? I am wondering if you don't need some help with PTSD... if often comes along with this crisis thing. You have had to be so strong, your daughter has been quite analytical about it all (which is worrisome) that being said, she seems to have the impression her dad is having some sort of PTSD thing. She could very well be right. This is probably helping to cope, as she definitely knows this man now, is not her father. She seems to be patiently waiting for him to come out of it. Your son, is having a great deal of difficulty though.
This makes it even more difficult for you to heal, as you REALLY have not had an opportunity to GRIEVE over YOUR loss. I know your son is hurting, but he has not lost his father. He will always have his father. Good, bad or indifferent. That being said, YOU HAVE LOST YOUR HUSBAND. Through no choice of your own. You were given no input, nothing. He just walked out the door and now he is divorcing you.
Seeing as you have had to care for your children and having one child who is having a great deal of difficulty accepting this, has left you with very little time to truly GRIEVE, your personal loss.
Perhaps you could get a family member to stay with your children for a few days and take yourself off to a spa or some such thing. Allow yourself some PERSONAL grieving time. You are a pretty strong person Blindsided, but all of us have to let out our emotions... all of them and not only behind a closed door, late in the night, when nobody can hear or see you.
Hugs Stayed
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Too funny. my H got his whole chest and stomach tattooed its huge.
I have never ever wanted a tattoo BUT
I too are drawn to getting one. i have told myself if after a year i still want one i will.
I want a bird cage with 25 lines representing 25years and i am now attracted to watches. As my life and future and healing is all about TIME TIME TIME!!!
funny we end up having our own crisis from the choices of our partners.
we are all certainly evolving and rediscovering ourselves from this experience
i know i am learning a lot about myself mostly by mistakes i have made with this whole MLC of my H and how I have reacted.
But its only a mistake they say if you don't learn from them ... Oh Boy i have learnt the hard way, but alas i am learning
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Everybody learns the hardway with this thing called MLC. I don't think there is any other way. I certainly would not have believed anybody who told me in the early days, to let go and detach! Who knew, eh?
You are sounding better, strong and calmer every time you post hopeful1. Good for you :) !
Hugs Stayed
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I was thinking about the stages last night. i think i have reached acceptance, but also totally went through all the other stages, too.
medusa and i are thinking with the same brain, it seems:
I am the same, S4A. Feelings of irritation and, rarely, anger, come up with I have to interact with him because he's such a jerk. I think this is just our minds continuing to make sense out of what has/is happening.
this is where i am. i get angry that i actually have to interact with this person, and i sometimes get angry when i have correspondence from my attorney...
i am at a point now where i don't think i would consider welcoming ex h into my life. nor can i imagine being at such a point--doesn't mean it can't/won't happen. i just can't imagine it happening.
i also wonder if i will EVER be at a point where i'm ready to welcome someone into my life. I would like someone to share "life" with, but don't really see myself with anyone else. i have created a good life for me and for 3d's without ex h, and i wonder if there is room for someone else. i am sure there is, it's just where i am right now--thinking and wondering...i am not actively seeking a new relationship. i am not lonely when i'm alone, and i'm not alone all that often because of 3d's...maybe i have just fallen into the routine and am content with that for now?
is this even a "stage" hmm
onlyjo
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1. Shock: "What the hell just happened?"
2. Denial: "This is so not happening."
3. Isolation: "I just want to sit in this all by myself."
4. Anger: "I hate you for breaking my heart!"
5. Bargaining: "What will it take to get him/her back?"
6. Depression: "I will never get over him/her."
7. Acceptance: "I understand why I was with him/her, why I'm not now, and that I will be better than just OK."
i think i have reached acceptance, but also totally went through all the other stages, too...this is where i am. i get angry that i actually have to interact with this person, and i sometimes get angry when i have correspondence from my attorney...i am at a point now where i don't think i would consider welcoming ex h into my life.
It seems many, moving past the 3 year mark, detach to the point of not believing their spouse would fit back into their lives. Some still stand, others welcome new R's.
At just the two year mark, I find it so hard to detach & yet also hold on to hope that my H will return in any sort of timely fashion (to me, at my age, 10 years just ain't realistic!) I want to embrace "living like he's not coming home" & I know I will be ok if he doesn't; I have so much good in my life. I want my H home, but exciting, albeit, scary, changes beckon when he D's me.
I grow so weary of the "will he or won't he?" bumpy ride (no longer a roller coaster) of standing & wonder if just saying "It's over" wouldn't be a relief. I think that will happen when his D is finished. I will literally move on without him, a couple of hundred miles away, & maybe never see him again.
The current engagement with the D process leaves a lot of "yucky" feelings. The expectation of finding lawyers' envelopes in my mailbox, the paperwork, the prospect of working out an agreement (or not being able to), anticipating the official severing of such a long, productive R. Lots of "yucky" feelings these days.
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OnlyJo, I think you are at, 3. Isolation: "I just want to sit in this all by myself." Believe it or not, you have sort of "isolated" yourself. You have found a happy place with your D's, friends, family. I think are coming into ACCEPTANCE. You aren't resistant to a NEW RELATIONSHIP, yet you are not actively seeking one out. I get the impression you are "being still"! Enjoying the peace your have finally found.
Not a bad place to be at all. I think you are doing what we all should try to do, finding inner peace and are learning to love, enjoy and trust your aloneness. Contented tranquility is how I see you! No longer fighting the fight.
You are going to be a wonderful catch for somebody one of these days.
Hugs Stayed
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limitless posted a story on her thread about an LBSer she knows who just remarried after two years or so, and her thinking she should not be, that she can't possibly be ready.
I think it's important to note that not all people process an MLC divorce the same way. I don't think, for everyone, it is processed like grief. For me, it was more like trauma recovery. See this link for a short summary: http://www.goodtherapy.org/blog/victim-survivor-thriver-trauma-stages/
Especially for people who have no inclination to stand, and have no concept of MLC, the sudden bomb is truly a violent attack and your former loving spouse becomes your worst enemy, so you are motivated to heal faster, so you can simply survive. I think standers tend to get stuck in victim a LOT longer--victims of MLC, not of their spouse, so it's a nameless, faceless perpetrator, and all the while, the former loving spouse, in many ways gets a free pass to continue doing damage, thus delaying the healing process even longer.
I think, in many ways, many standers become abused wives. And many, in many senses, were before, but they won't acknowledge it. But, you have to look at it on a relative scale. We are talking about emotional, not extreme physical abuse. But, here is an explanation, with some examples: http://annveilleux.com/articles/why-women-stay-understanding-the-battered-wife/. When we choose to stand, we HAVE to look past the bad stuff, just like a battered wife. We hold on, in love, in fear, or habit, knowing that we are being abused, in many respects. And even if this is a conscious choice, there is still a LOT of cognitive dissonance you have to reconcile to make sense of it. And that prevents true healing--because you are still not healing just yourself, but trying to keep dragging along a broken R that you can't fix without help.
Hanging out with other standers keeps you from seeing that some of us never went through the same stages. For me, there was no bargaining, no denial--I hired an attorney and got on with it, and even started dating before I ever found this site. It was horrendous and my early days were just like yours--the shock, the fear, the weight loss. But, I was gearing up for battle, to keep my kids, not to save my M. I had no idea what happened, only that I was not going to let him and OW take my kids... It was only once I got through victim to survivor that I found this site and even considered that there could be another answer.
Just something to consider, but I truly believe there are different paths and timelines to healing. Love and light, ll
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LisaLives - your post spoke to me. This has been something I have been struggling with since the beginning.
I know that none of us truly knows how we will react to any situation until we are in it, but what do you believe you would have done if you had found this site before following through with the divorce? Do you think your path would have been the same or different?
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I think standers tend to get stuck in victim a LOT longer--victims of MLC, not of their spouse, so it's a nameless, faceless perpetrator, and all the while, the former loving spouse, in many ways gets a free pass to continue doing damage, thus delaying the healing process even longer.
I disagree slightly here. MLC is not a nameless, faceless perpetrator - it is personified in our spouses. There are choices after BD - fight or flight. The third choice is to do nothing and this is usually the safest.
I think society aka well meaning friends and relatives perpetuates the victim mode by using phrases like " you don't deserve this,you deserve better/ Dump him / rise above this/kick him to the curb/pack his bags/ give him an ultimatum. They may think they are encouraging the survivor mode but I suggest they are unwittingly manipulating the LBS into victim mode. The poor pity me syndrome.
Even boasting about how you have given H what for etc.. is perpetuating the idea of being a victim fighting back.
Yes in standing the MLCer gets a free pass - but that is still the LBSer's choice. At first it is usually a knee jerk reaction that the marriage can be solved quickly. Then, as information gets through, assimilated, absorbed and accepted, standing becomes a choice. However this site and this thread is more about standing for your own healing. The LBser does not have to give the MLCer a free pass.
IMHO it is the LBsers of vanishers who end up giving the MLCer a free pass because the MLC has disappeared and not even D is an option.
When we choose to stand, we HAVE to look past the bad stuff, just like a battered wife. We hold on, in love, in fear, or habit, knowing that we are being abused, in many respects. And even if this is a conscious choice, there is still a LOT of cognitive dissonance you have to reconcile to make sense of it. And that prevents true healing--because you are still not healing just yourself, but trying to keep dragging along a broken R that you can't fix without help.
Those of us who have clingers can become and remain victims if we fall for the MLCer's patter and behaviour. H is the one with the issues and H will not get a free ride if he returns.
However there are a few of us that are healing, even with clingers. God knows how - suspect it's the familiarity breeds contempt syndrome.
Yet again though I was lucky to find a T that diagnosed me with PTSD and I chose to be totally honest about everything and learn how to help heal myself. At first it was in the vague hope that H would be a quick return. Then it became necessary for my survival to use her tactics just for me.
If H chooses to return - I have to a) want him to return and B) be ready for him to return. In the meantime I know that our R is completely broken and until we are both prepared to work together on it - I decided that there was no R to drag along. I am ok and beginning to thrive. Even with a CB/stay at home MLCer, I live my own life and bounce back from the down moments that my thoughts create no H's behaviour.
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I had to heal from this ordeal before I would have been able to pursue a new Relationship. It had nothing to do with anybody getting a free pass or a get out of jail card. I just knew that unless I understood what happened and came to terms with it, I doubt I would ever have had a DECENT relationship with anybody. Least of all my MLCer.
I think no matter what we do, whether we divorce, remarry, remain married but separated, or reconcile... it just doesn't matter. Unless we process all the stages, finally finding acceptance as much as possible, I knew I was incapable of having any sort of contentment with myself, or with anybody.
Hugs Stayed
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IMHO it is the LBsers of vanishers who end up giving the MLCer a free pass because the MLC has disappeared and not even D is an option.
Some vanishers divorce. Others don’t. And, no, the LBS does not give the vanisher MLCer a free pass. There is simply not much that can be done if your spouse vanished. Or, if like mine, does everything under the sun to prevent the divorce from happening but for any other purpose is a vanisher.
But Mr J can prevent all he wants, he cannot prevent me from deciding it is over nor to choose someone else. Nor can any MLCer prevent anything that is personl and intimate of the LBS.
There is no free pass to a vanisher, a vanisher vanishes, that is all.
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I had to heal from this ordeal before I would have been able to pursue a new Relationship... I just knew that unless I understood what happened and came to terms with it, I doubt I would ever have had a DECENT relationship with anybody.
Hugs Stayed
But stayed, you gathered yourself together, and really were given the gift of distance, and "stuff" to deal with that took your mind off of some things, for a bit. I will probably NEVER understand what happened, even your H is still foggy about his fog, and he works at it. I will probably never have the opportunity to understand. I can come terms with it, and heal, but that path is definitely different than the one I would have taken if I let it, in any way be hindered by trying to understand him and his process...
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Do any of them really get a free pass? Not trying to shift the focus back onto them, but we know they suffer guilt, and w are often hardest on ourselves. They know what they're doing and they have to live with themselves.
None of us gets a free pass. We do mirror work for ourselves and even though we know we aren't at fault for their crisis, we also, hopefully, know that some of the rotten stuff they said to us has a grain of truth.
I agree with Anjae: they cannot prevent us from living our lives the way we choose any more than we can prevent them from living their lives as they choose.
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I think standers tend to get stuck in victim a LOT longer--victims of MLC, not of their spouse, so it's a nameless, faceless perpetrator, and all the while, the former loving spouse, in many ways gets a free pass to continue doing damage, thus delaying the healing process even longer.
Before you go on discussing my "free pass" comment, let me clarify. What I said was that, in standing, and giving that agape love, being the lighthouse, and TRYING to understand and forgive MLC, in most cases, that MLCer is going to continue heaping on the damage. If you continue to see and hear the of the mess they make, if the D gets ugly and OW gets vile, you continue to face the schrapnel, all while TRYING to heal yourself. That is MUCH harder than walking away and ignoring it ALL.
Everyone still has to heal, but my original point was that if you know you are walking away, that process is much different than if you stand. Think about it like an athlete. When an NFL receiver tears an ACL and is determined to play again, that healing is MUCH different than for one who tears an ACL and decides to give up the sport. It is not just the physical work of surgery and rehab, but the psychology of going out there and facing the fear. Of course the one who gives up the game will still rehab to live and work and coach their kids, but knowing they will never again be forced to take a three foot jump with two huge men bearing down on them--is just different, and I would argue, a LOT easier.
So, I said a free pass to continue doing damage. And I could be wrong, but when my ex left, I took that as a declaration of war. When he became my enemy, nothing more he did could hurt me, not emotionally. When I let my guard down and saw him as the man I loved, the father of my kids, you bet he could hurt me, that was his ticket in, and he knew it. If he could make me vulnerable, he could try to negotiate a better settlement, or better custody terms, but I had an attorney who would not let me back down. That's what I meant, it takes a LOT more strength to continue loving something that continually hurts you than it does to walk away--that healing path is far easier.
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I walked away, literally, I moved back over, more than 300km from Mr J. And turned by back on it all. But, since Mr J does not allow for the legalities to move, well, I still have to deal with courts. So, it was easy and it was not easy at all.
Other than that he is away, we have not seen each other, but for last month's court session and this week one, in more than 6 years.
OW2 is probably over the top vile by now, her name turns up in every court and legal document from Mr J of late, but I do not have to see her (and never saw her in person), do not have to deal with her.
I'm home, none of them can do me a thing (other than drag legal issues). They cannot come around here. I've been to the capital since I left and Mr J was not even in my mind.
As for court, there is also no way Mr J can touch me or anything. He can get angry but then he has to deal with the judge. His lawyer can try and be mean with me but my lawyer and the judge are there. So, not much left for him to do.
And, of course, no way on earth he can run my heart or my feelings.
Oh, I forgot, Mr J was being enraged when I moved back. He just shouted and shouted and shouted on our living room and accused me of being involved with this that and those guys up here. Guys I had not seen in years. I ignored him and told him, none of your business, you choose your path, now, please leave.
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Take it from someone who has done this both ways, I can say, with certainty, that it was far easier to walk away from my exH and his MLC, than it has been to stand for this one and his MLC. I am not tied to this one by marriage so I could walk away without the D issues, except that he is a clinger and spent the first 8 months after BD staying here every other weekend. He still stays occasionally, which I will admit is wonderful as it happens, and is very hard when it's over. Currently, it is the choice I choose to make. On the other hand, my exH left for two weeks, came back for one night, and told me he couldn't do it...never stayed here again. It was an easy decision to let exH walk away...this one, not so much. I guess knowing that I could let exH go so easily, makes me believe I love this one with a different kind of love that makes me want to stand, regardless of what gets thrown at me while I'm standing.
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I actually agree with you about using the term MLC in a sense gives our spouse a "pass", an excuse. It definitely makes it easier to "forgive" them, if you latch onto the belief, that they "cannot help themselves, they have a dis-ease" which is making them behave this way. It is easy though, to accept such a "diagnosis/excuse/ailment" because in most cases the transformation from mild manner reporter to seething, volatile, out of control JOKER, is so immense!
Admittedly, the change didn't happen overnight, although the changes were severe enough that within a few months, you find yourself "walking on eggshells, sneaking peeks at them, when you think they aren't looking"! It's subtle changes, with episodes of disturbing, baffling changes, which become more and more severe the longer the CRISIS goes on.
At least, that's the way my spouses crisis came about. It sort of crept up on us. Although, definitely aware something was happening, unable to put your finger on what it is. Looking back, it becomes excruciatingly clear, typical 20/20 hindsight.
But stayed, you gathered yourself together, and really were given the gift of distance, and "stuff" to deal with that took your mind off of some things, for a bit. I will probably NEVER understand what happened, even your H is still foggy about his fog, and he works at it. I will probably never have the opportunity to understand. I can come terms with it, and heal, but that path is definitely different than the one I would have taken if I let it, in any way be hindered by trying to understand him and his process...
I get your point LisaLives, I was granted and took advantage of the gift of distance and "stuff". Although, just like you, I really do not understand what happened, nor does he. We all have to COME TO TERMS with this thing, whether we remain with them, separate and remain alone, or find a new love. If we want to live whole, happy lives that is.
I do agree with you though, standing does seem to keep us STUCK in Victim mode longer then those that move on. Just plain stuck quite honestly, be it in Victim mode or not, STANDERS do tend to get "stuck" a bit longer. I personally like to call it "standing still", hehehe, not stuck. Letting ourselves adjust, rehabilitate so to speak.
I don't think any of us need to apologize or explain what we choose to do with this time. It is all good in my mind. I am happy you have found a new love, are making a new life for you. At the same time, I am happy when I see somebody like Moving Forward and Musica, have and are moving on with their lives, buying new homes, setting up the building blocks for their new future. I also feel joy when I see reconnection/reconciliation.
Watching an LBS come out of the depths of shock and horror, beginning to work through their ordeal is also very gratifying, heartening. The resilience of human nature, never fails to amaze me actually. I am often surprised that there are as "few" suicides, as there are. It certainly crossed my mind, which is something I have never in my life considered. Indication the shock is pretty devastating.
Good discussion as always. The whole point of this particular thread is to get the LBS to focus on themselves. Your insights into this are much welcomed LisaLives. Thank you.
Hugs Stayed
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I love you stayed, you're why I still lurk here... And I really only contribute when I feel I can offer a perspective that might help. I love all the positive endings, and that is the other small reason I come back--I love when a stander wins.
But there is a difference between being "stuck" and standing still. Stuck is ruminating. Stuck is what happens when you are so focused on reading the last chapters of your life that you stop writing the new ones. Standing still is closing the old book and contemplating the new one. It is sitting with the story board in your head and sketching out potential stories, imagining the characters and plot lines until you finally settle on a direction--perhaps only to come back in a year or two to do it all over. It is like meditation, it is NOT inaction or inactivity, it is a positive rejuvenating state. And it CAN include standing, or moving forward, and moving forward is not always done in a positive way, either.
It was important to me to point out though that judging those who heal faster may not be appropriate if done from a standing perspective. I have known many LBS IRL now, only a few who have stood, none with a successful R. But, those who never think to stand heal much faster. If you look at it from a victim perspective, the anger sets in right away and the boiling hatred they are allowed, and even encouraged to feel, from society-at-large, gives them the fuel to fix stuff faster. They never spend time reading the old chapters, they move on. And while it is true, you must heal and you must clean up the mess of your M, a healthy new partner CAN actually HELP you do that. And, it is also possible that two very unhealthy broken people can join together and heal each other--I have seen that, also--that is my story, basically.
But, my real point was that focusing on where your MLCer is in the process, or where you are, in your own process is ruminating, it is not living. Of course we all do, to a certain extent and sometimes, it's healthy. But it is far more productive to have goals and benchmarks than to meander aimlessly. I am a planner, by nature, by training, and very competitive, always. I never felt that way in my M and never with friends, but when he became the enemy, damn if every competitive cell in my body didn't wake up and say "you will win over my dead body." And I almost gave him that, too, the closest I ever came to suicide. But hell no. The healthiest thing I did was set goals for myself. And I'll be damned if I haven't kept every single one, including now, as I come up on my five year mark, I am mostly financially stable in a job I love. I had to rewrite my story a few times, it took a few plot twists I didn't expect, but I write it, every day.
And if I had been focused on him, I would still be watching him twist in the wind. He STILL does bizarre things and I KNOW his M is not all he thought it would be. It actually looks a lot like ours did--the life he didn't want! But what I have not allowed myself to do is think that every positive interaction, or touch-n-go, or moment of clarity is a sign he is emerging from the tunnel. I understand even less now than I did on BD, but I do know myself a LOT better and I am happy in my new skin... Being and LBS is like having dermabrasion of your psyche--painfully laser off the outer layers, so the foundation can regenerate itself. Anyway, killing time, I also tend to lurk here when I procrastinate at work... Love and light, ll
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LisaLives,
Wow! It's hard to even quote anything from your post because I could easily quote the whole thing; so many points I agree with! This paragraph sticks out and I can relate to it; the bold line is something I have attempted to address before on these boards with mixed responses:
It was important to me to point out though that judging those who heal faster may not be appropriate if done from a standing perspective. I have known many LBS IRL now, only a few who have stood, none with a successful R. But, those who never think to stand heal much faster. If you look at it from a victim perspective, the anger sets in right away and the boiling hatred they are allowed, and even encouraged to feel, from society-at-large, gives them the fuel to fix stuff faster. They never spend time reading the old chapters, they move on. And while it is true, you must heal and you must clean up the mess of your M, a healthy new partner CAN actually HELP you do that. And, it is also possible that two very unhealthy broken people can join together and heal each other--I have seen that, also--that is my story, basically.
Everyone deals with it and heals from it in different ways! Some will stand forever, some for years, and some for only months! Some will remain passive & "trust in the process" (<--- I think I hate that term as much as "in love"); others will decide, for their own reasons, the process is not worth the wait!
I stood for a while; long enough for me to see what I was dealing with, and long enough to reflect on our history! It was not an easy decision to make! I set certain criteria & boundaries that were "deal breakers"; things that due to my core values & beliefs, if they occurred, I could not overlook as it would go against what I believed in! I could see those deal breakers on the horizon, and EA#2 was basically the nail in the coffin for me, so I decided to stop standing for the marriage (not me), and cut myself free!
I moved into the spare bedroom in June and out of the house on 1 August. No it hasn't been that long, but I have made more progress during that time than I thought possible! I know I made the right decision FOR ME!!!
Once I made the decision to divorce and move on, I made huge gains on my personal healing and growth! The weight was lifted; the white elephant left the room. I allowed all the pent up frustration and anger I was suppressing loose and I burned through it! I finally said my piece on things and that was that! I still truth dart/spear when needed; ignore everything else and basically ignore the X!
Occasionally I still get angry over things; mainly because I feel like I wasted 22 years of my life, but it subsides quickly and for the most part, I am over it! I am forging out a new life for myself; my standard of living has actually increased and my quality time and bond with D11 is much much stronger! I am more at peace now than I think I have in a long, long time!
I have no doubt I am in acceptance; some very minimal anger but that will be gone soon enough!
DO
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Stuck is ruminating. Stuck is what happens when you are so focused on reading the last chapters of your life that you stop writing the new ones. Standing still is closing the old book and contemplating the new one.
That's it! This is the stage at which the reactive anger stops, the genuine realisation that this is real and that you (as in the LBS) are the most important person in your story (along with children of course if that applies) emerges. It really is a crossroads - do you stay stuck and head blindly in the same direction or do you take a left or a right and change direction?
So many on here stay stuck - focussing on their MLCer 1 or more years after BD.
This was the point of this thread - to explore the feelings, attitudes, learning and growth that the LBS goes through - if they allow themselves to.
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i can say lately i am empathetic to his plight but i roll my eyes at everything he says. it's like talking to a brick wall and every now and then i will throw something to see if it sticks cause i get bored.
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I guess everyone deals with this a little differently. Many from observing me would think I "moved on" or whatever you want to call it, pretty quick. I live with my boyfriend and our relationship is fun and exciting, right now. Next year?,..Next week,...I don't know where I will be. Three years ago if you told me that I would be divorced, I would have laughed in your face. I think alot differently now, nothing is guaranteed.
Point is, Why label it? I don't know if husband will try to come back, if he does, I don't know if I will want him back. Maybe my boyfriend will go nuts, maybe I will (well, I kind of already did that ::) ), maybe Brad Pitt will leave Angelina, run past Jen and into my arms. :D
I don't think my marriage was a waste. I was very happy for almost 28 years. Something happened, wish I knew something was wrong, wish he had the "boys" to talk to me, but he didn't and I can't change whatever is going on in his head. I will never call it "over", ever...
Is that "standing"? I'm not sure.
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..................maybe Brad Pitt will leave Angelina, run past Jen and into my arms. :D
Damn.....between Brad Pitt and Adam Levine, it's a wonder how a normal guy can even compare!!!
LOL!!! ;)
DO
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I didn't mention Adam, but sure why not?? ;D ;D
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Is that "standing"? I'm not sure.
It's whatever you want it to be, Nah. We are in similar places. I cannot picture reconciliation, but at least it consider myself smart enough to realize that things may change with time. In the mean time, I'm just living my life the best way I know how. ..................maybe Brad Pitt will leave Angelina, run past Jen and into my arms. :D
Damn.....between Brad Pitt and Adam Levine, it's a wonder how a normal guy can even compare!!!
LOL!!! ;)
DO
And since when have you been a normal guy, DO? ;)
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And since when have you been a normal guy, DO? ;)
HEY!! I'm normal......enough! I guess I should have said average! Oh wait......if I recall I am above average too! 8)
DO
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And since when have you been a normal guy, DO? ;)
HEY!! I'm normal......enough! I guess I should have said average! Oh wait......if I recall I am above average too! 8)
DO
You just keep telling yourself that, my friend. ;)
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Lisa Lives, I hope you always LURK. When I see that you have posted, my pulse quickens with pleasure and excitement. I know that things are going to get lively when you post. I love your insight. We need to hear, you always make our gray cells twitter.
Keep us thinking Girl... hugs Stayed
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LL,
Thanks for sharing your perspective. I have wanted to respond to your first post, but I'm still ruminating :) . I am a firm believer that there is no one right way to do this & while RCR has her philosophy & her experience of dealing with her H's MLC, she leaves plenty of space for others to craft their own path. A newbie just wants his/her partner back & to try to understand what bus just hit her. Then you absorb the HS party line & then a little more ways along the path, you begin to see the different ways people pick up the pieces & arrange them into a new pattern.
First comes healing from the shock, the trauma, the grief. There is the struggle of "unzipping" yourself from the bonded R of your M. Difficult in the best of healthy situations, even more complicated the more "co-dependence" there was. (I really hate that term co-dependence & actually don't think it is in issue in most of the M's I read about here). I like your concept of "benchmarks". Without believing in progress, without believing in a good life up ahead, one really does stay stuck.
Hugs,
HT
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Oops!
I get behind a couple of days and there's SO MUCH to catch up on...
OnlyJo, I think you are at, 3. Isolation: "I just want to sit in this all by myself." Believe it or not, you have sort of "isolated" yourself. You have found a happy place with your D's, friends, family. I think are coming into ACCEPTANCE. You aren't resistant to a NEW RELATIONSHIP, yet you are not actively seeking one out. I get the impression you are "being still"! Enjoying the peace your have finally found.
Not a bad place to be at all. I think you are doing what we all should try to do, finding inner peace and are learning to love, enjoy and trust your aloneness. Contented tranquility is how I see you! No longer fighting the fight.
You are going to be a wonderful catch for somebody one of these days.
Hugs Stayed
Awww...stayed. You are too kind. Not sure what someone would be fishing for if i am a wonderful catch-ha!!
Maybe you are right-maybe i am in ISOLATION, which to me, has a negative connotation because of all my babbage, i'm sure. When i think "isolation" i think "hermit". As stayed pointed out, this is not necessarily the case-maybe this is the stage where i get my "sea legs" again? I have to figure out for MYSELF what i want and what i don't want, and being still gives me the time to do that. If acceptance is reaching the "it is what it is" state of mind, i am getting there.
I still HATE that it is what it is, though, with regard to my children. They ought not to have to be exposed to the likes of the scum sucking woman their father hooked up. With to make himself FEEL BETTER-what a bunch of crap. If that sounds like anger-IT IS!! I think i will always harbor anger toward ex h and ow for what they have put my girls through. Not burning vengeful anger...but an anger nonetheless that two adults can be so cavalier about behaving in such a manner.
But it is far more productive to have goals and benchmarks than to meander aimlessly. I am a planner by nature, by training, and very competitive, always
LL-you are the EXACT OPPOSITE of me! I am a meanderer, a non-planner, and i was the same during my marriage, because ex h was/is an uber-control freak. I tend to like meandering-you never know wherre you might end up, and it could be the next big adventure! Of course, i do have to plan for some things, but that is not by nature how i prefer to live. I would say that i typically have a loose plan, though...BD amd MLC forced me to come up. With a PLAN-aaack! And actually, once i started planning, i was fine. I had a date by which i wanted to be out of my former amityville horror marital home, and i accomplished that ON MY OWN and with a lot of legal red tape. I am still working on my career plan, but have some help and mentoring in that area-so-long story short-i sort of agree with you about setting goals and planning, even if the plan is (as mine is now) to stay as far away from ex h's MLC as i can ::). That's my plan and my goal, that, and to mitigate the damage caused to my d's by ex h and his selfish selfish MESSED UP self.
I think i move/cycle through the latter LBS stages still...maybe that will always happen-i dont know. I dont know what will happen tomorrow-man plans, God laughs.
Healed? I dont know. Who am i to say? Most days, i function extremely well, and on the days i dont, its not because of ex h and his foolishness...it's because im tired or grouchy or fed up, but not really because of ex h. I get anxious with his antics re:property settlement, though-he's trying to screw me out of what is legally (and morally and ethically but what does ex h know about that????) mine and d!cking around with the way i wish to live...
I don't think im stuck. I think i was, but i am not anymore. Life moves forward whether we do or not...and as one of my friends said at his father's eugoly recently: my dad taught us that there's no rearview mirror. On the high road". This whole MLC thing can be a lose-lose situation if we remain stuck...i called a friend and got a tow out of the mud (or $h!te, whatever it was 8)) and now am trying to find my way to the high road.
I totally agree with HT that there is no ONE RIGHT WAY to do this. It is like a kaleidoscope-for each of us, at every turn, the view will be a little different-VERY SIMILAR-but a little different. Being able to share thoughts regarding those differences is what makes this forum such a valuable and cherished place for me.
Kind of an all-over-the-place post-my brain is working faster than my fingers are typing...
Thanks to all for support, advise, and though-provoking (and sometimes hard-Anjae :P) questions
Onlyjo
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The high road isn't easy..I'm still on it with NC as far as I'm concerned. I struggle with anger and resentment but I feel it abating.
I think it's because I've had to come to my own closure about this and maybe in some aspects it applies to us who are still married.
Whatever the relationship was is over. A reality I absolutely refused to accept four years ago.
In a year and 7 months I have had nothing to do with him I feel much better. I almost see glimpses of peace.
I still have triggers that set me off - but due to understanding friends etc I'm lucky I can express them and not be judged or deemed crazy.
I think the hardest thing all of us have to try to wrap our brain around is none of this had anything to do with us.
Now that I have perspective...I'll never allow anyone to control me again... this freedom feels way too good.
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(I really hate that term co-dependence & actually don't think it is in issue in most of the M's I read about here).
I don't hate it but like you I don't think it was an issue for most marriages here. Also, humans do are dependent of each other by nature, so the term is a little puzzling to me. I get it if it is used toward an extreme situation, otherwise it does not make much sense to me.
Thanks to all for support, advise, and though-provoking (and sometimes hard-Anjae :P) questions
Onlyjo
You're welcome, Jo. :P
I think the hardest thing all of us have to try to wrap our brain around is none of this had anything to do with us.
That was easy for me. For a long while what it was not was to understand what was going on with someone I had know for 20 years.
Now for me everything seems so much in the past, or even like it was all someone else's life and not mine. It is a strange thing.
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Is that "standing"? I'm not sure.
It's whatever you want it to be, Nah. We are in similar places. I cannot picture reconciliation, but at least it consider myself smart enough to realize that things may change with time. In the mean time, I'm just living my life the best way I know how.
Yep.
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(I really hate that term co-dependence & actually don't think it is in issue in most of the M's I read about here).
I don't hate it but like you I don't think it was an issue for most marriages here. Also, humans do are dependent of each other by nature, so the term is a little puzzling to me.
Let's put it to the test then.
What do you all understanding the meaning of co-dependence to be and do you believe that you or your MLCer had traits/elements of that in your R pre BD?
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I read co-dependent no more. Made no sense to me, but then I'm not the brightest bulb in the pack when it comes to that stuff. I think we each are somewhat dependent on each other, that's what couples do. But I don't see where I was dependent on him to a point that was unhealthy. I don't know about him. I did 90 percent of everything, could have just been because he was lazy or a user. Who knows.
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What do you all understanding the meaning of co-dependence to be and do you believe that you or your MLCer had traits/elements of that in your R pre BD?
Well, I take the term "co-dependence" as one-sided.
Yes, he depended on me for things, and I depended on him for things. After almost 30 years he never had to write a check or do taxes, I never had to worry about when my car needed an oil change. For us, I felt it was a true partnership that worked. I did what I liked and was good at, and he did what he liked and what he was good at. I took the kids to most of their appointments, he coached most of their sports. It worked.
Mine is not a clinger, more of a vanisher, so I don't have much of an opinion on the dynamics after BD. He left and I detached as quickly and as best I could.
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Co-dependence is an unhealthy relationship where one person winds up feeling responsible for the emotions and behavior of another. She will do whatever she has to to make the partner happy. Also, boundaries are blurred because one partner often sees the other as am extension of himself rather than as an individual. Guilt is a huge factor in these kinds of relationships.
I was in a co-dependent marriage. I learned over time that his happiness was my responsibility (I know it wasn't, BTW). We had a dance of trying to control each other. I did so many always trying to make him happy; he did so by always trying to make me feel guilty and unworthy. If Medusa would have just done a little bit more, everything would have been okay. The result? Unhappy people.
One of the hallmarks of co-dependency is that people are left feeling not good enough. It really hit me when my kids shared with me, independently, that they never felt they could do anything to please their dad. Me and the kids learned we were responsible for his moods.
I think its wrong to say that all or none of our relationships involved co-dependence. I had no idea I was in a c-d relationship until I started IC. He came to a couple of sessions with me, and after he quit, the therapist flat-out told me I was c-d because of how I acted around him.
I place no blame on anyone for the way the relationship was. I am the product of an alcoholic parent. I grew up co-dependent. Both of us came from passive-aggressive homes. You never say what you want, but you manipulate to get your way. And he was made to feel responsible for his mother after his father died. His mother still piles on the guilt. Its a reflection of her own self-esteem issues.
We can break the cycle of co-dependency. For me, detaching and limited contact is the key. I know, now, that not only am I good enough bit I always was. My kids know the same. Breaking the cycle is about changing the messages in our brain. Tell yourself something enough and I does become your truth.
By the way, this doesn't mean that we had a horrible relationship or that the love wasn't real. We had a good relationship in many ways, and the love was very real. Had we know years before that we were c-d, perhaps we could have worked through that part of our relationship. I, not saying MLC still wouldn't have happened because it go so much deeper than that. But I do think I might not have been quite the puddle it was for so many months had I not felt entirely responsible for his happiness, etc.
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I think that I was in a codependent R with H but not to the depth of obssessiveness.
I certainly had a passive aggressive mother and realise that I carried it on by never saying what I was feeling but trying to express myself and stropping when I wasn't listened to.
I felt dismissed by H from time to time - when I complained about work or something else and said that I felt angry - his response was to say "well don't be"
That made me feel worthless but such was my need for his approval that I thought there was something wrong with me.
This was also perpetuated by my guilt at having a brief fling 17 years ago. I felt so grateful that he didn't throw me out and full of remorse that I changed who I was for the next 15 years till BD.
Now when I think back to that evening when H found out, I remember saying that I felt depressed as it was not longer after my dad had died, I had just had my son and I wasn't able to have maternity leave for financial reasons and H had not been at all helpful during that year. I remember saying to H that if he really wanted to sort this situation out, he had to accept some responsibility for the breakdown in our R for me to choose to stray. He just said, and this is a clear as BD, - "Well when I believe that what you say is valid - I'll do as you ask. But for now I don't and won't believe a word you say for a long time."
I was too shocked and I knew that I wanted our marriage and our children. So I said nothing for the next 15 years and became co-dependent - guilt and seeing him as an extension of me. I allowed him to "control" me over the last few years (which I now see as his denial) and felt that I was responsible for his happiness.
And yet like nah - we had an R where we each did things that were mutually beneficial - I thought that was the way marriage went.
I think though that because he is such a clinger and will not leave us alone he is still co-dependent and sees me as an extension of himself.
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I get it in the sense it seems to be used here and in some therapy terms, but it does make any sense to me. Like I said, for me it is only something that would apply to an extreme situation.
Of course in a couple both spouses depend of each other. It is the normal nature of being pared. And all humans depend of each other. It is part of our most ancient and primeval nature. We would have not made it as a species if we did not depend of each others.
Me and Mr J each had its share of responsibilities. Some things we share, other each of us did on its own. But I never had problems with domestic tasks. I worked from home, so I had more time to them, but Mr J always helped. And if I was ill, or did not wanted to do something, he would do it. Or none of us would do it and we did the day after. I think we were pretty relaxed. Relaxed, not lazy or messy.
And it was indeed a partnership that worked very well, both in personal as well as in professional terms. Together we were better and more than the sum of the parts. But we were two different individuals and I never felt responsible for Mr J emotions. And don't think he felt for mine. No, no feeling of never had been good enough for me. And none for pre MLC Mr J. We always thought we were enough and liked each other the way we were.
Was it all a bed of roses? Of course not. All couples have ups and downs, good and bad.
Early crisis Mr J was an über clinger but I think that is just MLC stuff. It has been years since we are both total distancers. Pre crisis he was always able to stay on his won when I was away and I was always able to stay on my own when he was away.
Since I always tend to see things more from a human heritage perspective, there are lots of terms, many from therapy or psychology, that do not make sense to me, even if I know their technical meaning.
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What do you all understand the meaning of co-dependence to be and do you believe that you or your MLCer had traits/elements of that in your R pre BD?
I guess my irritation at the way "co-dependent" is thrown about is because of my experience with my H's active alcoholism 24 years ago. Some literature seems to assume that the spouse of an addict is automatically co-dependent. I did not necessarily handle the situation well because I didn't have the knowledge or support I needed. I have found the parallels between my H's drinking problem & MLC striking. I thought I could appeal rationally & logically to his sense of responsibility, to his integrity, to his intellect. But, of course, I could not. He was in complete denial until the moment he wasn't (when he was arrested for DWI).
I didn't blame myself for his drinking; I didn't hold myself responsible for his behavior. When I saw him cross the line & as a health care provider potentially endanger patients, I went to his boss.
Thanks, Medusa, for your understandable explanation of co-dependence. Much as nah has described, my M was one of inter-dependence. We each did the tasks we enjoyed & had competence for. I always saw us as each others' best friend; that's how our R had started. I thought we had reached a place in our very long-term M where we didn't need much in-depth emotional discussion. My emotional needs were being met by our M, my R with my kids, my family, my friends, my volunteer activities, my personal interests. I had little sign that my H was not getting his emotional needs met. There had been NO discussion that he needed more. No arguing or resentment or any other sign that all was not well.
In hindsight though, perhaps H had held me responsible for his emotional needs, his "happiness". In his covert depression, with the trigger of work problems, perhaps H held me responsible for his unhappiness & set about finding "someone who liked him" to supply him with positive emotional vibes. Isn't this the way we describe MLC? So perhaps most (all?) MLCers are to some extent co-dependent upon their spouse & hold them responsible for their lack of "happiness", seeking another outside source (the OP generally) to provide what they now believe their spouse should have supplied, but didn't.
I explored the topic of co-dependence some with my IC & he assured me that I didn't display signs of it,. He differentiated between love & dependency needs. He would say that I may continue to always love my H, but that my dependency needs for him would diminish. I see this as the eventual lessening of the LBS's horrible longing for the physical presence, the affection/sexual relations, the positive regard, & all of the interdependent sharing of an established life together.
The other interesting thing he said was that "dependency needs can be transferred, but love cannot be transferred". In other words, the MLCer is getting his dependency needs filled by the OP, but that he can't just "give" the love he had for his spouse to the OP. Perhaps the basis for the ILYBINILWY speech. And one thing that returning MLCers seem to remember is that they never stopped loving the spouse they had left behind, no matter how dazzled they seemed to be with their "new R".
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Song and Dance..big light bulb moment for me in your post :o :o..I felt the same way in the marriage and did also the same things you did.
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"dependency needs can be transferred, but love cannot be transferred".
Spot on HT's IC !!! Spot on and is almost the title of another thread. It just made me remember this..
H saw our oldest D a few weeks ago He hadn't seen her for months (both of them ostriches) although they had exchanged texts as both have been diagnosed Coeliac. He said " I love your mum more than life itself but my friendship ( :o :o) with OW is mutually beneficial for our needs. ??? ??? ???
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He said " I love your mum more than life itself but my friendship ( :o :o) with OW is mutually beneficial for our needs. ??? ??? ???
Wow. Now there's transparency for you. That tells me more about MLC than almost anything else I've read or heard. Your H knows about his 'needs' - that should at least make it easier for him to understand the work to be done, once he really starts on The Work? Most people, I imagine, aren't even aware of their inner needs, only the pain of them not being met.
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Thanks, Medusa, for your understandable explanation of co-dependence.
You're welcome. Glad my explanation made sense. :)
I was thinking about this last night and remembered something: He told me when I started my doctorate that if I pursued it,we would get divorced because of the amount of time it would take. That, I think, is a huge sign of co-dependence. I was supposed to be there for him at all times. I was supposed to do things fir us and for him. Not for me. The funny thing is that one of the reasons I was working for the degree was because I wanted to get a job with a much higher salary so I could buy him the airplane he always dreamed of. That may sound nuts, but I loved the man that much.
The other interesting thing he said was that "dependency needs can be transferred, but love cannot be transferred". In other words, the MLCer is getting his dependency needs filled by the OP, but that he can't just "give" the love he had for his spouse to the OP. Perhaps the basis for the ILYBINILWY speech. And one thing that returning MLCers seem to remember is that they never stopped loving the spouse they had left behind, no matter how dazzled they seemed to be with their "new R".
I love this. Certainly love cannot be transferred, and I think them getting their needs met by someone else is the basis for ILYBINILWY. I think, too, they love us until they begin their PA (for those that have one) and then have to fall out of love with us to justify to themselves. At least, that's how it worked with mine. I don't knowm much about the R with OW, but I'm willing to bet the c-d transferred.
Just remembered...I mentioned to him when he still lived here that I thought we were c-d. He dismissed it, of course. But just after BD, he was talking a lot about emotional intelligence. In retrospect, he knew he was emotionally immature. He knew he was looking to me to fulfill his needs. It took me awhile, but. I did come to understand that my needs were going unfulfilled because of his voracious appetite. That's the true sadness and dangers of a real c-d relationship.
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Certainly love cannot be transferred, and I think them getting their needs met by someone else is the basis for ILYBINILWY. I think, too, they love us until they begin their PA (for those that have one) and then have to fall out of love with us to justify to themselves. At least, that's how it worked with mine. I don't knowm much about the R with OW, but I'm willing to bet the c-d transferred.
Ditto ditto ditto......Totally agree and mirror this.
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Certainly love cannot be transferred, and I think them getting their needs met by someone else is the basis for ILYBINILWY. I think, too, they love us until they begin their PA (for those that have one) and then have to fall out of love with us to justify to themselves. At least, that's how it worked with mine. I don't knowm much about the R with OW, but I'm willing to bet the c-d transferred.
Ditto ditto ditto......Totally agree and mirror this.
I agree with this too. I asked my husband straight out if he loved her. He had no problem saying he had sex with her, that he was going to live with her, but he would not say that he loved her. Just kept repeating that he needed to be happy.
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Ah - very early on my H did volunteer that he had told OW he loved her. He also wanted to know how it was possible to love two women at the same time. I realised then - he had a screw loose and told him there could be no comparison between the marital love of 15 years with the fanatsy love of 5 months.
Now he still sees her - think it's the band aid and soothing behaviour that keeps him attached. Let's put it this way - he has talked of as being stupid, she and her children are dysfunctional and he never told me that she was his soulmate. Ummm H.....you did - several times.
How does this help the stages of the LBS though? It helps us see the wheat from the chaff and it also helps our understanding that OW is nothing and he is in crisis. It also probably helps us understand what co-dependency is as the needs are transferred because a co-dependent person is needy.
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I know we always jump back to the MLCer, don't we? How can we not?
Look at it this way if you are walking down a street and on one side there is a tree growing and on the other side there is a car crash, which story are you going to come home and write about?
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Ah - very early on my H did volunteer that he had told OW he loved her. He also wanted to know how it was possible to love two women at the same time. I realised then - he had a screw loose and told him there could be no comparison between the marital love of 15 years with the fanatsy love of 5 months.
same here. he said he loved us both and it actually was painful for him. then as time went on he said he loved me more and even told ow that he loved me more and she was beneath me. now he says he tells her he loves her to keep her out of his face. he is the one who has always said however how in the world can 20 years compare to a few months, it can't and it never will.
watching and listening to all this has helped me realize even more how she really isn't important and has allowed me to let go of the hold she had on my mindset for so long. once i was able to do that i began to grow and focus more on what i needed to do for myself and let him plug along his path. i know i am really involved in my situation but i am also in an amazing place for myself mentally and i feel good and strong and like i can conquer what ever gets thrown at me from now on. i have been kicked and knocked down and i got back up, and yes i have bruises and scars but i didn't die.
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Great insights everyone ;)
My H falls in line with codependency. I think that this stems from FOO issues for my H. The think that the only way he could deal with his unstable family environment was to form unhealthy attachments.
Now he still sees her - think it's the band aid and soothing behaviour that keeps him attached. Let's put it this way - he has talked of as being stupid, she and her children are dysfunctional and he never told me that she was his soulmate. Ummm H.....you did - several times.
This is what I see in my situation too. Thankfully I have never gotten the 'soulmate' or 'I love her' BS. Mine did tell me that he would eventually have feelings for her - my take on that at the time was that in order to justify the relationship he needed to believe that love could happen. I also got the 'I can love 2 women at the same time' speech - he got angry at me when I called BS on that one. I think that one of the reasons that H keeps the fact that he is still seeing OW a secret is that he is embarrassed by it. He gets very defensive if I bring her up. I use to think that the defensiveness was to 'protect' her but now I think it is to 'protect' himself. He doesn't want to admit what he has become.
Certainly love cannot be transferred, and I think them getting their needs met by someone else is the basis for ILYBINILWY. I think, too, they love us until they begin their PA (for those that have one) and then have to fall out of love with us to justify to themselves. At least, that's how it worked with mine. I don't knowm much about the R with OW, but I'm willing to bet the c-d transferred.
Ditto ditto ditto......Totally agree and mirror this.
Ditto for me too
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He gets very defensive if I bring her up. I use to think that the defensiveness was to 'protect' her but now I think it is to 'protect' himself. He doesn't want to admit what he has become.
Ditto.
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How does this help the stages of the LBS though? It helps us see the wheat from the chaff and it also helps our understanding that OW is nothing and he is in crisis. It also probably helps us understand what co-dependency is as the needs are transferred because a co-dependent person is needy.
Yes, the c-d person is very needy. They find their identification through someone else.
When my told me he loved OW, I was not surprised and had no reaction beyond thinking he is stupid. I've thought about that conversation a few time since, and them saying they love another person so quickly after becoming involved shows their immaturity. For me this was reinforced when I found his Pro/Con list: her first Pro was that she made his feel "special/unique". Yeah...that's the definition of infatuation. These pieces if information help us process what's happening and move through our stages. The Pro/Con list as a whole reiterated how immature and selfish he is and, whenever I think about it, I know I have no interest in a relationship with this man.
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Op u forgot a stage it's called mlcers reality check be careful what u wish for u may just get it.
Remember star trek fans wanting and having are two different things
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"dependency needs can be transferred, but love cannot be transferred".
He said " I love your mum more than life itself but my friendship ( :o :o) with OW is mutually beneficial for our needs. ??? ??? ???
Exactly! A personalized version of this concept. Mine said 7 months ago in a rare R talk, "I know now that you loved me, but I found someone who likes me..." A more "all about me" version.
He said " I love your mum more than life itself but my friendship ( :o :o) with OW is mutually beneficial for our needs. ??? ??? ???
Your H knows about his 'needs' - that should at least make it easier for him to understand the work to be done, once he really starts on The Work? Most people, I imagine, aren't even aware of their inner needs, only the pain of them not being met.
If S&D's H thinks the OW is meeting his "needs", he really is not yet in touch with his true needs. The MLCer looks to the OW, an external source, for his validation, for unquestioning adoration & approval, & for the thrill of illicit sex--all very addicting. These "highs" mask the pain of depression, low self-esteem, self-hatred.
...they love us until they begin their PA (for those that have one) and then have to fall out of love with us to justify to themselves.
Yes, I think they do have to convince themselves that they have "fallen out of love" with us in order to justify the "new R". They must be "in love" to do this lying-cheating-abandonment thing to us. And then they project this "falling out of love" thing onto us. What I got was "I thought you didn't love me any more, didn't even like me".
...I'm willing to bet the c-d transferred.
Absolutely! The basis really of the MLCer/OP R. "I'll make you happy, so I can feel happy & you make me happy so you can feel happy" & The Knight in Tarnished Armor syndrome.
I recall another bit from my IC. He said these R's begun in adultery sometimes "work" if the couple have "balanced dependency"--they are completely wrapped up in each other & have no other interests outside of each other (I pictured the couple walking around wearing matching clothing ::) :P). Not sticking with this mutual co-dependency may be what ultimately ends these R's, or maybe signals the end of the crisis. Those that stay stuck may be the ones who can tolerate such suffocating co-dependence or who, in a sick way, find this does meet their needs.
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Yes, I think they do have to convince themselves that they have "fallen out of love" with us in order to justify the "new R". They must be "in love" to do this lying-cheating-abandonment thing to us. And then they project this "falling out of love" thing onto us. What I got was "I thought you didn't love me any more, didn't even like me".
Exactly - although mine was " I know you don't love me anymore, I know you have been cheating on me for the last 15 years. I know that you want to end our marriage. "
When I asked him for proof of this - he said he had none; he had discussed me with OW and was in agreement with her that that was why he had to end this painful marriage of ours. And then I got her letter 3 weeks later saying the same thing.!!!
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Exactly - although mine was " I know you don't love me anymore, I know you have been cheating on me for the last 15 years. I know that you want to end our marriage. "
When I asked him for proof of this - he said he had none; he had discussed me with OW and was in agreement with her that that was why he had to end this painful marriage of ours. And then I got her letter 3 weeks later saying the same thing.!!!
Wow, talk about "faulty" thinking... like OW would not have any PERSONAL AGENDA? She's such a wonderful person, solid character, honest, totally trustworthy... that would be why she is cheating with a MARRIED man. She just wants to help him get out of such a dastardly, sick, loveless marriage!
Stupid or what eh?
Hugs Stayed
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I like your 'Reality Check' stage Pascalle.
I pass through it every time he rocks up to cake eat/check his anchor. I'm learning though that the disgust I feel does not necessarily mean I'm done. It just means that he isn't.
;D
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Op u forgot a stage it's called mlcers reality check be careful what u wish for u may just get it.
And I say it all the time !!!
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" I know you don't love me anymore, I know you have been cheating on me for the last 15 years. I know that you want to end our marriage. " When I asked him for proof of this - he said he had none; he had discussed me with OW and was in agreement with her that that was why he had to end this painful marriage of ours.
Yes, the OW is the perfect one to get M advice from ??? :o :P :P :P . When mine told me he had "found someone who liked him, because he hadn't felt that from me in a long time", I said that maybe he should have discussed that with me instead of some stranger he met on the internet. All he could do was mutter "Yeah".
Like Stayed said, a married woman cheating on her H & dazzled by your shiny foreign car & motorcycles? Yep, the perfect one with whom to discuss your intimate thoughts about your M. No wonder they get so f'ed up.
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It kills me. These partners of ours are USUALLY so skeptical. At least mine was. He questions/questioned everything, takes nothing at face "value"! Yet, every word out of the OW, was credible!! :o :o :o WTF??
Can we say MID LIFE CRAZY? When you look at this from an outsiders point of view, can you blame our friends and relatives for looking at us, LIKE WE ARE THE DILLUSIONAL ONES? Unless you are actually experiencing this, it is simply unbelievable.
It's understandable that the LBS has trouble believing it is happening, "denial" so to speak. We didn't have "troubled" marriages, not perfect of course but for the most part, our lives were quite ideal. Hence the shock and surprise when our friends, acquaintances, family etc., hear that our spouses have left us. That's what differentiates this from "other" marital breakdowns!
Hugs Stayed
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It's understandable that the LBS has trouble believing it is happening, "denial" so to speak. We didn't have "troubled" marriages, not perfect of course but for the most part, our lives were quite ideal. Hence the shock and surprise when our friends, acquaintances, family etc., hear that our spouses have left us. That's what differentiates this from "other" marital breakdowns!
This! So very much this is it. And this is what sets off the MLC/LBS syndrome (maybe we can work back to our stages ;) ). The shock, the disbelief (I think a better word that denial), the incomprehension, the search for answers, the attempts at R talk.
How could this be happening when I didn't know anything about it? How could you have been so unhappy & not even mentioned it? How could you be saying this is what you thought I believed about our M when it is so obviously not true? How could you say our M is over when there was no discussion that our M had "problems"? How come I don't get any say in this? How can you be throwing away this (10, 20, 40 year) M without even an attempt to "fix" what you think is wrong with it? And as my S-30 said to his dad, "WTF is wrong with you"?
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This! So very much this is it. And this is what sets off the MLC/LBS syndrome (maybe we can work back to our stages ;) ). The shock, the disbelief (I think a better word that denial), the incomprehension, the search for answers, the attempts at R talk.
How could this be happening when I didn't know anything about it? How could you have been so unhappy & not even mentioned it? How could you be saying this is what you thought I believed about our M when it is so obviously not true? How could you say our M is over when there was no discussion that our M had "problems"? How come I don't get any say in this? How can you be throwing away this (10, 20, 40 year) M without even an attempt to "fix" what you think is wrong with it?
Does any of these things happen in "normal" divorces?
It's the divorced people that drive me the craziest. They think I should be celebrating. I often ask if they were surprised. "Well, we were fighting alot, counseling didn't work, etc...," No, we were very happy for 25+ years (even husband admits this) and then BAM, mic drop and he left. That was it. No relationship talk, nothing. How am I supposed to "move on" when I don't know what went wrong? I often question if MLC is real but I need something to understand. It's not like we were together for 2-3 years, almost 30 years is a long time to just shrug my shoulders and forget about it.
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The hardest part for me to grasp was the arbitrariness of it. Our marriage was based on team work. With 5 children, a very busy military career, long absences, we had to be on the same page. We DISCUSSED things. Then one day, poof, I've met somebody else. I am going to everything I can to build a good relationship with my new partner. I have been UNHAPPY a long time. (of course started out, last couple of years, then the last 5 or 10, eventually, he never loved me, was never happy from day 1 of our marriage, yep for 28 years, he lived in complete misery)... still makes me shriek... W T F ! ! !
Yes, I agree with you, I think "disbelief" is a far better word to use in our situations, then "denial"! I'll be honest with you, I knew it was happening, I was 100% aware it was happening, I was not denying a damn thing, what I could not grasp was... WHAT THE H HAPPENED ? ? ?
I wasn't the only person who couldn't believe he had left me either. As the news slowly trickled out, everywhere I went, I had to deal with utter disbelief. I cannot tell you how often I heard, "you were the last two people I ever thought would split up"! Or, "OMG, if you two have split up, there is not hope for our marriage"!
Yea, disbelief! That's the word. I was STUCK there for at least 3 months... 3 more after that of intermittent "disbelief"! I think I skipped straight to "anger" after that. hehehe Bouts of isolation, I have always been a person that has to be alone, to work through stuff. Then right on cue to anger. Then lots of bargaining... oh my goodness, did I try to bargain, honestly, it was more like "begging"... cheeks still go on fire when I think of that... yep, shock, disbelief, isolation, beg...ooops bargaining, depression... the likes of which I didn't even know existed. Being my normal self opinionated broad that I am, to me depression was self inflicted, inner remorse. Let it go... why dwell on it. Goodness, I couldn't compartmentalize this like I always had with anything UNPLEASANT or DISTURBING! Actually, that was probably my special form of denial, hehehe... no could do this time.
Finally, I started having some short lived bouts of acceptance. They didn't last long. I was like an Indian rubber ball, I was bouncing all over the place, in rapid succession. Wait 5 minutes and I'd be somewhere/somebody/someplace ELSE. It was pretty ugly. :(
I still wrestle with accepting that my h could become that person. I should be long past it and I am over it for sure, but I still find myself thinking, "who knew, who knew that person lived within this for the most part, kindly, considerate, loving man?" I keep an eye out for that guy. I'm not obsessed about it, but I would be lying if I didn't tell you, I keep a wary eye out for his return. Definitely want to get the hell out of the way, if that "dude" ever makes a reappearance!
I tend to think there is that wariness with anybody and LBSer hooks up with. I don't live in fear of it, but I don't want to be around it, at all, ever again. So I want to get out of the way, at the first sign of it happening. You can't do that, if you aren't watching out for it.
I admit, I have some residual "trust" issues, hehehe. Not even going to attempt to explain them and I definitely will not apologize for them.
Just saw your post nah....
Does any of these things happen in "normal" divorces?
I often ask if they were surprised.
Ditto, ditto! Anybody I knew who divorced, saw it coming. They were not happy together, had not been for a long time. They actually still like each other, but just did not like being together.
DGU always said this. "The difference between a normal divorce and an MLC divorce", there is no SURPRISE in the normal divorce. With the MLC divorce, the only way to word it is SHOCKED, DISBELIEF!!!
Hugs Stayed
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A year later and I am still in disbelief, I still don't understand what happened. Or how it went from I am unhappy, it is me, to it is all your fault because you wouldn't change. I think on BD was the closest to the truth I will ever have, we lost the spark, life is mundane, same thing day in day out. OK so you were bored, so instead of talking to me, and US trying to work it out, YOU decided to have an affair and leave your family and the only person who has stood by you for 28 years for some chick, 16 years younger, who you lied about for a year. This is the man I believed was honorable, truthful, faithful, loyal. I had utter and complete trust in him, I felt loved and safe. Funny, now he says I was arrogant. Arrogant in believing my Husband, believing in my marriage? The stuff they come up with truly defies logic. The only choice we have is to let go or be dragged down with them.
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Are you able to identify the stage you are in? Do you find it helpful to understand what YOU are going through, being able to say, oh dang, I'm angry again... sure will be glad when I work my way through this "stuff"?
Do you find you are less "depressed" then you were, or more so? Are you still "disbelieving" as much as you did at first? Do you still feel shocked?
Does anybody know how often we go through the stages, before we start to accept. I think the only stage I gave up on by the end of the first 3 months, was the begging... ooops I mean bargaining! All the rest, I just kept rippling through them. Sometimes all of them in an hour, hehehe. Does that count as part of the STAGES S&D.
Blindsided, I have been impressed by you from the very first day you signed onto this forum. You were up and going to work, posting here with us, getting your kids counseling, yourself counseling and on and on, saw a lawyer and you weren't even at the 3 months point, when you did all those things.
All I can say not my dear young lady, you are just at the year point now. From here on in, it is different. You are off the floor. You are fluctuating through Anger, isolation, anger, depression, anger, acceptance, anger, some forgiveness... anger. Many of my friends that are now 3/4 years into this, they are still experiencing anger. They are less depressed, much less depressed but still go there now and then. They accept their situation, completely. They accept the recurring anger, isolation and depression... some of them are little upset because they are finding it difficult to FORGIVE.
Personally, I think forgiveness is dead last. That being said, I've had a lot of people beg to differ about that... but who am I to say.
Just keep on posting blindsided. Your input is invaluable.
Hugs Stayed
Towards the end, the only BARGAINING I did was with myself... "Stayed, PLEASE stop dwelling on this... let it go! If you let it go for an hour, I will let you beat up another pillow tonight".
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Hi
This is my first time I have posted - please bare with me if I haven't done it correctly.
Sorry if this is a little late but Stayed I think the Maori arm band would be perfect for a tattoo. If you can work the words "kia kaha" (stay strong) into the design would make it a very appropriate LBS tatt. Good luck!
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Picton, where were you when I wanted to do the Maori Arm Band.. I would have loved to have "stay strong" implemented into the design. I am going to look into that. I draw quite well, so I shall find a "typical" Maori Arm Band design, is there one you could recommend. Send me the link if you do.
That is a tattoo that I truly would be tempted to have done... even now.
hugs Stayed
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Hi Stayed - I will do some research and get back to you. A lot of the Maori designs have a "meaning" to them so will see if I can find something appropriate. Maori tattoos were historically for warriors - I think all LBS, especially those who choose to stand need to be a bit of a warrior who kia kaha.
I will be in touch soon.
Kia kaha (stay strong)
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Kia Kaha to you as well. Thanks.
Hugs Stayed
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HeartTattoo-How could you say our M is over when there was no discussion that our M had "problems"? How come I don't get any say in this? How can you be throwing away this (10, 20, 40 year) M without even an attempt to "fix" what you think is wrong with it?
Mine told me after BD he was feeling unhappy and was giving it 3 weeks to see if I changed. Of course he didn't let me in on his thoughts. I was somehow just supposed to know he wanted me to change because he was unhappy.
::)
Then they wonder why we were so shocked. :o Guess we were supposed to be mind readers.
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A year later and I am still in disbelief, I still don't understand what happened. Or how it went from I am unhappy, it is me, to it is all your fault because you wouldn't change. I think on BD was the closest to the truth I will ever have, we lost the spark, life is mundane, same thing day in day out. OK so you were bored, so instead of talking to me, and US trying to work it out, YOU decided to have an affair and leave your family and the only person who has stood by you for 28 years for some chick, 16 years younger, who you lied about for a year. This is the man I believed was honorable, truthful, faithful, loyal. I had utter and complete trust in him, I felt loved and safe. Funny, now he says I was arrogant. Arrogant in believing my Husband, believing in my marriage? The stuff they come up with truly defies logic. The only choice we have is to let go or be dragged down with them.
Yes! I didn't get exactly what you got but I think I got more truths in those first few weeks than lately, and I am still disbelieving sometimes. He even conceded early on that it might be midlife crisis but denied it later. Everyone else was in disbelief as well. D18 walked in on him kissing me and grabbing my butt the morning of BD and I remember D14 talking about her friends' parents "fighting like they might get divorced but that would never happen to us". That broke my heart as it came when I was agonizing about soon telling them what was going on. I had a few friends saying that the kids would be so much better, that they knew when something was wrong and would be relieved at no more fighting. But there was no fighting and the kids had no idea anything was amiss!
I don't think we should be so hard on ourselves about the begging/bargaining, Stayed. I mean, we are just trying to get them to really THINK about throwing away several years and damaging our children. And how were we to know about what was really going on when no one acknowledges this terrible mess beyond jokes about sports cars and hair plugs?
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So true bipolar! I think it's hilarious how every single one of us took these people at their word. They told us, WE NEEDED to change... they didn't of course... and all of us JUMPED through hoops trying to make ourselves into the caricature that they said they wanted. Now that is embarrassing, hehehe!
I have learned to live with my begging, groveling, bargaining early days, hehehe! I was pretty busy jumping through hoops. Fixing every flaw my perfect husband deemed was wrong with me.
Oh well, it is what it is... get healthy, see what happens after that.
Hugs Stayed
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The way I see the begging/groveling and changing ourselves for them is that its a step in changing ourselves for ourselves. We listened to what they thought was wrong with us and were able to go deeper.
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The way I see the begging/groveling and changing ourselves for them is that its a step in changing ourselves for ourselves. We listened to what they thought was wrong with us and were able to go deeper.
That is absolutely correct. Some of the things he said were things that bothered me as well, and I have made very positive changes for myself. He has only himself to blame if someone besides me benefits from that. ;D
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i agree as well. it may have started with me changing for him, i agreed they were things i needed to work on and they had bothered me too, but it evolved into me bettering me for myself and my kids. it enabled me to survive some of the worst times.
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Medusa,
You are so right on. The changes I started making for him turned out to be great things for me.
I guess we can all better ourselves in one way or another. EVEN these perfect (gag) MCer's. ::)
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They told us, WE NEEDED to change... they didn't of course... and all of us JUMPED through hoops trying to make ourselves into the caricature that they said they wanted.
Mine couldn't even come up with anything that was wrong with me. The things he said were totally absurd (see "$h!te MLCer's say") or were dredged up from 15-20 years earlier. All that pertained to the present was "We were too comfortable". ??? ??? ??? This is why shock & disbelief were my major reactions. I bargained a lot--with God, not with H, he wasn't wavering a bit & we went NC. But I have never had much anger. Moments of it maybe, lots of frustration with the impossibility of being able to "do" anything about my H & my M. Detachment takes awhile to figure out.
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yeah i got the whole we got too comfortable with each other line too. i wanted to punch him in the face when he said that, instead i said ok sorry you feel that way and left.
it's crazy. i would rather be comfortable with someone than be in a relationship where i can't be myself, like he is now. i would hate having to not be myself. it's punitive. if you can't be yourself with someone then what is the point.
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New thread
http://mlcforum.theherosspouse.com/index.php?topic=5789.0