Midlife Crisis: Support for Left Behind Spouses
Archives => Archived Topics => Topic started by: barbiedoll on January 25, 2015, 05:36:57 AM
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Do they know the damage they have created in the women that have loved them? Do they know that physcologically the injury is permanent , I will always have some measure of triggers, some struggle with trust , some sadness to know other hands have touched him .. and he wanted that. I cannot imagine how the lies will EVER be forgotten , the knowing he is capable of being another person. I have googled this and get little information.. apparrently it can take time for men to process emotions . I believe 100% I would progress along the road to forgiveness if I saw a true recognition of my pain. If I could see an epiphamy of what this has cost me. Maybe I do not recognize how a man shows remorse. .. I am certain it is different than women. He has said he is sorry.. I want to spit. It is so far from adequate . What am I missing. Without this ... I am stuck . I see that as a missing piece of my healing and an endless struuggle to make him "feel" what he actually did to another human being. The one that loved him so...
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The only way he could feel what he did to you is for you to do it to him. Would that make you feel better or save your marriage? There is a difference between empathy and compassion. Empathy means you can feel what the other person is going through. Compassion adds to that some sort of positive action- it does seem that your h is investing time and effort in the course of positive action. He most likely does not have the fortitude to actually go through what you´ve been through. You are the stronger person and will continue to be so. Can you live in a partnership where there is disparity in your emotional strengths and coping skills? Maybe over time he can learn more skills from you.
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I firmly agree the only way they can feel true emapthy is to have the same thing happen to them. The high road and self respect not getting caught up in escaping the way they did. Stay true to you.
Remorse? I'm not sure what that would ever look like. Guilt? That's easy for them as that's where they might operate from.
You leaving and taking time for yourself with no contact when you go will leave him to deal with things.
IMHO Now is the time to have some compassion for yourself and not him.
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Barbiedoll- I am right there with you! My h isn't able to acknowledge how much pain he has caused or show remorse. I have been working on forgiveness. This is a definition I have found. Forgiveness is giving up resentment against someone and surrendering your right to retaliate. Unforgiveness is the deliberate, willful refusal to give up resentment and insistence that someone pay for a wrong that was committed.
I am working and struggling with this daily. It's hard to not want payback or view the other person as understanding and showing remorse for the pain they caused. But the bitterness ultimately hurts you not them.
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There is possibly one view that is overlooked when it comes to forgiveness etc and that is for those of us who do not hold any faith or belief in the ability to spiritually forgive someone.
For me i find that i do not need to forgive someone to not carry hate or bitterness in my heart. I do not forgive my h, maybe i never will.
Barbiedoll, if you need certain actions from your h in order to forgive then that would be for you to decide there is no pressure to forgive.
It may well be that you forgive eventually but doesn't mean that you can live with the person who caused those permanent damages in you. I believe that some of the damage is permanent, given that memories are permanent, loss of trust for them may well be permanent too. If remorse never comes then they do not earn it.
I am of the school of thought that respect is not given automatically whether it be as a partner or as a manager of people, similarly with forgiveness i believe it is earned not a right. I can live as me without the need to forgive abhorant behaviour toward me and my lived ones. I may well walk away instead.
I have read quite a bit about remorse and what it looks/feels like and someone who cannot see beyond their own feelings will never consider you. The pain is all theirs not yours.
Like others say unless they felt all of this they will never know and never understand, nor will we understand whatever pain they were feeling when they did this. The twain shall never meet.
We are all different and my views are possibly nog mirrored by anyone else, but i would also not expect forgiveness unless i had worked hard to prove that i regret how i hurt them and have learned from it.
Sd
X
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Thanks.. always makes me think. Forgiveness is something i am working on. I truly understand it is for ME... not him. My husband believes "actions" are more powerfull than any words at this point.. he thinks all the nice things, gestures, keeping his word, surprising me , working hard on the marriage , working with counsellors and being committed to us and or marriage are all signs of guilt and rmorse. He still relies on his actions to relay that message as he admits "he is still learning to express his emotion". He thinks long and hard before he answers me. He says he will talk to his counsellor about this. He says he feels guilt and remorse... he has apologized, he equates his action to a complete mental breakdown and was walking in a trance tring to feel "anything at all. ". I get confused. I think just being a human being would allow you to truly show remorse.. just naturally. The counsellor said i would be shocked to know some people have to "learn " how to show some emotons. He is one of them . It does not come "naturally" to some people. Hmmmmmm? I am confused by that .
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I can understand that. My father shows no emotions apart from happy and angry.
He was raised by alcoholic parents. I think it's quite normal!
I'm imagining my H is in an asylum at the mo. It helps me cope with not knowing where he lives or what he is doing!
Keep going
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I get confused. I think just being a human being would allow you to truly show remorse.. just naturally. The counsellor said i would be shocked to know some people have to "learn " how to show some emotons. He is one of them . It does not come "naturally" to some people. Hmmmmmm? I am confused by that .
I would harken a guess that the H you knew before this crisis hit was not someone who would have needed to "learn" remorse. It feels like cognitive dissonance I would think to then have some stranger explaining to you that your H is one of those people! Would have been different had he shown issues in the past, I would think. I still question whether counselors understand the nature of this thing, and if they do more harm than good sometimes.
I do tend to agree with superdog, that this is just going to be a long process without a 'trigger' that will fix things. I think we'd all benefit from knowing that and taking the expectations off of ourselves to be saints and embrace our own humanity, too.
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I guess in order to express remorse they would have to admit they were wrong..made a mistake ..had a lapse in judgement somehow. It's up to the one who has been betrayed to decide what is acceptable. And no just an "I'm sorry" doesn't cut it.
They weren't just hit by space junk; they made a choice.
And frankly? I haven't encountered many men that are willing to do that. Being "right" seems to be more important than anything else.
What might motivate them is when they have lost or may lose something.. you might see them scamper. Make an attempt..do things, say things, whatever may produce the desired result. Some sort of desparate last ditch effort to "win back" or keep what they have.
That's when you look to yourself to ask if YOU want them. Not the other way around. That's why time alone by yourself without them is very important.
I haven't noticed any men posting on the thread.
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barbiedoll,
There is a good article on this site called Blind to Destruction...I think that was the name.
Maybe someone can find it for you. It really helped me. Sometimes they are not as blind as you think they are.
As far as expressing remorse, some do more than others. They may feel the remorse the same but some are not good at verbalizing it. Maybe it's a personality thing. I don't know.
I suppose most of us, deep inside, want them to grovel. Make up for all the hurt they have caused us.
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Since in it noticed no men posting in this thread I will throw my 2 cents in. I doubt its going to help though.
Back in 2009 when I had my own little crisis and had the short lived one sided EA, my wife found out and she was extremely hurt. I had guilt, and I honestly was remorseful. I was sorry that I did it except for one thing: It showed me what I really had, and what was most important in life.
As far as demonstrating that remorse to my wife-I honestly do not think I ever did. Lots of words were said, but I did not do much in action to SHOW how remorseful I was. The truth is-I did NOT KNOW HOW. Again, this is just me, and other guys may be different, so take my reason with a grain of salt.
It was at that very point that I backed away to give wife space and time to heal, because I didn't know how otherwise. In time that backing away turned to neglect, and at the same time I guess I turned into a low energy wallower, and didn't realize it. That was the catalyst for my wife's MLC.
-T
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Your two cents sounds right on , Terrified. I am quite sure that my partner has no idea how to get out of the mess he has gotten into. He is starting to turn back toward me. I Am pretty sure I will not hear remorse in words...only action. However, I think women need to hear it in words because it shows a breaking down in ego and that it is finally all out in the open and not locked away for later.
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I also think you have to give a LOT of thought to whether you are capable of forgiving what he did. Long serious thought. If you are looking for something he will never attain, you need to admit it to yourself, otherwise R is not possible. If every time he jumps through one hoop, you find another one, and will never be satisfied, you need to admit that, to him and to yourself.
Frankly, that's how I knew I could never stand. I was not born with a forgiveness bone for betrayal. There are many things I could forgive. I could forgive the affair, the treatment of me, all of it, up until he made me hire an attorney and fight him for MY kids... That he wanted THAT woman to raise my kids was unforgiveable to me. There are hoops he could jump through to make it happen, but I know him and I know he would never do it, so standing was never an option for me, I am just not wired that way. As hard and sad as it has been, in some ways, it is freeing, also. We ALL have limits, and learning yours is important, for both of you, or you will be locked in a power struggle forever, and this is not a healthy place to be.
So, it is just my two cents, but this your opportunity to dig deep within and learn who you really are and what you can live with, or without, as the case may be. Good luck, love and light, ll
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My Husband did have this done to him; his first wife cheated on him so he knows how it feels. He kicked her to the curb and divorced her as quickly as he could. I've often asked him why he thinks I shouldn't do the same to him.....he has no answer.
As far as having to learn how to show remorse and emotion I would agree that this describes my H as well. He was always stoic, controlled, non-reactive. I thought it was strength. Little did I know the flip side to that coin, that it was a dysfunctional and avoidant way to deal with issues. I see that with both situations, his first wife and then our challenges, he chose to run as opposed to digging in and doing the hard work. Starting over was easier in his book than being vulnerable and dealing with his emotions.
Remorse? Have I seen it? I don't know......perhaps through actions and not words. I really need to look at the big picture. I'm extremely verbal and he isn't so maybe I'm looking for the wrong thing. I need to consider his actions. He has taken quite the verbal punishment from me and keeps coming back.....doing things around the house.....being helpful when he can.
this your opportunity to dig deep within and learn who you really are and what you can live with, or without, as the case may be.
This is probably the biggest truth when it comes to standing and reconciliation. Its messy, painful and not what you expect. Dig deep and find out what is really important for your own sanity. Is my H remorseful? I don't know, but he's trying to make things right in his own way. Is it enough for me? Time will tell.....
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The more appropriate question may be "how do people show guilt or remorse?" Not sure what gender has to do with it... Obviously more than a "opps, my bad" is in order based on what our spouses have done. What we are all advised when standinig, prior to reconnection, is to measure their actions more than their words. The fact your husband is in counseling and working on your relationship says to me he recognizes he needs to change. As a man, I have no problem admitting when I am wrong and apologizing when needed. My advice would be if there is something specific you want or need from someone to believe they are remourseful than ask. Its ok to ask to have your needs met. If they refuse or can not meet your needs you should reconsider the relationship. Why are you in a relationship with someone who does not want to or can not meet your needs?
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The way I felt about it in that realtionship was:
If he couldn't think of it himself ..then me telling him what I needed to hear pretty much cancelled it out. I wasn't expecting him to be a mind reader..just some sort of indication that he was a human being,
If the Ex had said once " I will do anything to make this work" That would have opened the door to a lot of options. But since the problem was always me...that didn't happen.
And in hindsight that relationship didn't meet my needs on just about every level. So I am much better off without him.
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Slow Fade, My X is the same.
I highly doubt I would ever hear a lot of words coming out of his mouth, a far as remorse, it would be more in his actions.
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If guilt and remorse can be portrayed in actions... he is a 10 out of 10. What am I looking for ? I just do not know. I believe I have been depending on something he would finally "say" that would make my anxiety just go away, the triggers stop, my imagination to shut down. I think that is the wrong place to look. It is something inside of me that continues to relive the shock .. it seems beyond my control, it will not stop.I do need to dig deeper, i know there is something in me that i have not been able to identify. Infidelity is hard.. it changes a person. I have printed this post, will spend more time reading it. I was told by the counsellor , some people are still learning to show thier emotions, to find the right words etc. He does not know how just yet. .. in words i guess. I guess i interpret that ( at times) as not having remorse. It is very confusing to me. I am finally off work. I have fought going off for nearly 2 years.. but i have to now. It is time for me to address whatever is inside .. that will not let me rest, forgive, trust or find a new road. Please be patient with me... you people are my lifeline.. even if i am "stuck". Thank you all so much .
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What am I looking for ?
It's what you are looking at that is one of your issues here. You are still very much focussed on him and what he is doing and also not doing.
I think that is the wrong place to look.
You are correct - you do need to dig deeper and this is because he was an "early returner" and you had not had the " gift of time" to find yourself. You were still in shock with the whole trauma of BD etc..
Perhaps you are looking for a sense of what was rather than what is and can be.
Your H has returned - check
you accredit him with genuine remorse and actions to back it up. - check
you are aware that you have triggers - check
You are seeing a counsellor - check
You are beginning to understand that you have to find you - check
Now look at these statements...
You are confident that you can heal - ummm?
You are prepared to stop seeking what was - ummm?
You are prepared to accept what happened - ummm?
You are prepared to accept what can be - ummm?
You will find peace and forgiveness both for yourself and your H - but like the MLC - trust the process and let go of your own agonies.
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In my case? I knew he knew he had made a mistake but getting him to be ACCOUNTABLE was like living in fantasyland.."Oh we'll just put our rings back on and pretend it didn't happen" ARE YOU $h!teTING ME?
I've even heard from a friend he had almost 2 years later he admitted it to him.
Now what has happened can not be forgiven. I don't end up getting exrays for ANYBODY.
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Barbie,
I suffer from PTSD too. I have been diagnosed with it. First for the loss of my son and I have also been diagnosed with Secondary PTSD from H's military combat PTSD. I do see a PTSD counselor once a week. The intrusive thoughts and reliving the trauma causes anxiety. At least this is what I have learned.
There is a lot of information on the internet on PTSD if you haven't read it already.
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thank you songandance... wow, interesting for me to see that in black and white. I too have ptsd.. actually the call it Post Infidelity Trauma Response. I have been referred to a Trauma Center by my doctor and they faxed some paperwork to me today. I finally have time. I finally can concentrate on me..and less on him. I am also going to take whatever i can get for hotflashes.. hellish things. We saw cancer doctor today. His surgery is booked, in 6 weeks. It is all sooo overwhelming
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Yes there are many forms of PTSD they are finding out. Glad to hear you are going to a trauma center. The added stress with your H and his cancer I am sure is making PTSD worse for you. And the hot flashes...check in to that because that is also a symptom of PTSD.
For me I become paralyzed and obsessed with thoughts. I take something for anxiety and the depression part. I also have social anxiety because of this.
Overwhelming is an understatement.
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For me I become paralyzed and obsessed with thoughts. I take something for anxiety and the depression part. I also have social anxiety because of this.
Overwhelming is an understatement.
This is me. I start treatment for PTSD in a week. My therapist asked me today if I was ready if my wife came home today. I couldn't imagine it. The thought of her being around still makes me uncomfortable. I still need to heal.
Take care of yourself. PTSD has caused me to feel stuck, too.
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I suffered from PTSD due to a schizophrenic neighbour banging on my walls and floor with a hammer 24/7 for 3 years, among other things like standing outside my door at 3am in the morning. Even after I sold my apartment and moved into a rental, I would jump whenever I heard something drop or a knock coming from my neighbours'. It started to spiral into paranoia. I developed a phobia of living in apartment buildings and wanted a house with no neighbours nearby.
Never saw a therapist. Took about 6 months (I read that this is the standard time needed to heal and it turned out to be true for me) after I moved away from the madness to get 80% over it. 1.5 years later today, there is still that remaining 20% fear of something similar happening again, and I think it will always be there, but it doesn't interfere with my daily life anymore.
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I was diagnosed with PTSD by my T. I have logged it all on my threads as it was a fascinating and liberating experience. I'll post the links up in another reply when I can find them.
Suffice to say - the treatment only works if you are totally honest with yourself. You have to succumb to your distress/your pain and you have to be prepared to face whatever realisation about yourself and H that you may have as a result of treatment.
My T (who I nickname my lifesaver) was quite "brutal" with me. She brooked no nonsense and when I had a moment of realisation she probed and questioned until I was completely clear and conscious of what I was doing and what I had to do to deal with it. She also gave me brilliant strategies and techniques to deal with my feelings as they arose (a bit more complex than Stayed's elastic band and other images) These helped me enormously but more importantly than all of this - she helped me find the courage to be true to myself. To acknowledge and dissipate my flaws - to help me make my choices and to help me feel ok with myself.
Her first question to me was what did I want from the treatment . My reply " to feel ok" Mission accomplished.
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PTSD is a cruel consequence of someone elses actions. Just fuels the rage and injustice some days. I have to step out of MY life to fix ME for behaviors of HIS. But i will.. no one can live like this. The treatment facility that I have been referred to, you actually live there for a month . Home on weekends if appropriate. That alone , almost put me into a panic attack. Scared to leave / scared to stay. If he was ever going to be unfaithfull again.. it would be a golden opportunity for him. I do not believe he would... BUT , neither did I before. To ever live my life imagining " I do not know something " is the cruelest thing that can happen to a women that loves a man. Afraid of it all. Terrified actually . It is hard to let a person who has lied and cheated help you heal from lying and cheating. thank you all.
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PTSD is not just a consequence of cruel actions by someone else.
My T told me about another patient of hers who had been sailing with friends and the boom swung over unexpectedly knocking her friend out and over the boat. The patient tried to get her out of the water but couldn't and even though the two men jumped in and hauled her out she died as a result of the head injury.
The patient suffered PTSD because she had seen the boom coming and had ducked but hadn't been quick enough to shout or shove her friend out of the way. The guilt and shock she had was overwhelming - she couldn't work for months, couldn't sleep, her marriage started to fall apart, ADs weren't working. She had treatment with my T to help her recover. She did and she has forgiven herself but will always wonder - what if....
PTSD is the body's mental and emotional response to a shock of some kind. We are all capable of having PTSD - it is actually the level of response that our psyche can handle. This is why some PTSD "causes" may seem so much more intense than others.
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I believe I had PTSD after a car accident when I was 20. Lasted for years but I don't think it was a "thing" back then, or if it was it only applied to military veterans. I remember shortly after BD thinking that I was having the same feelings, symptoms, responses, etc. Yet another way this forum has been a Godsend as I have been able to deal with it so much better.
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I find this very interesting..PTSD is the body's mental and emotional response to a shock of some kind. We are all capable of having PTSD - it is actually the level of response that our psyche can handle. This is why some PTSD "causes" may seem so much more intense than others.
I was abandoned by my first husband when i was 21 . He just walked away from me , a 9 month old and a 22 month old . Just was not happy. He wanted to drink, be with the boys, ride motorcycles and chase women. He was a child , not a man ready to be a father and a husband. For years i dreamt the same thing. He was tied to a chair and had to listen to me ... I "got my say" in a dream, he would not give me this in real life. Not having "your say about tour own life, your own direction, your own body ... your 50% of your marriage ( so to say)... is devastating. This experience absolutely directly links into those old injuries and trauma . I was years getting beyond that abandonment and years truly trusting my husband of today. He knew all those things. In fact , once in his monstorring arrogance he actually said " I know what this will do to you Barbiedoll.. but I just don't care anymore.". It is all linked in my soul and memory and is horribly painfull. Trust will be a massive hurdle for me and very aware it may never happen .
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Totally trusting them again..not an easy thing. I know this experience has changed the way I emotionally invest (if I ever do) in another relationship.
That your H took something he knew to be the most hurtful (what he viewed as a weakness) ..and actually acknowledged he knew what it would to you but didn't care? That's a cruel and brutal execution of your trust.
You do not just hand it back to him. It's earned- if it is even possible.
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I was abandoned by my first husband when i was 21 . He just walked away from me , a 9 month old and a 22 month old . Just was not happy. He wanted to drink, be with the boys, ride motorcycles and chase women. He was a child , not a man ready to be a father and a husband. For years i dreamt the same thing. He was tied to a chair and had to listen to me ... I "got my say" in a dream, he would not give me this in real life. Not having "your say about tour own life, your own direction, your own body ... your 50% of your marriage ( so to say)... is devastating.
This is interesting Barbie and is possibly why you are still very much in "victim/anger mode"
You were abandoned at a relatively young age for a mother. This has perpetuated your fear of abandonment that is in us all and, because the abandonment was real for you at that time - when your current H "abandoned " you it brought back the feelings from all those years ago which were never resolved.
So when your H returns - it isn't the way it is supposed to be for you. You are someone who is abandoned - your fear has manifested again. Therefore it is not "logical" for H to return and to return full of remorse. You are the one who is the injured party here - why does he get to be remorseful?
The dream of tying your first h to a chair is also very telling. The chair sometimes symbolises rest because you are wearing yourself to the bone. Someone sitting in the chair preventing you from doing so is symbolic of your thoughts and attitudes being dismissed and making you feel unimportant and valueless.
So perhaps that dream was your emotional mind's way of feeling worthless and tired of the constant energy you had to have as a single young mother in order to survive. It was not that you had to get your say at all - you said it but it was to no-one. No-one heard you.
Therefore this is a latent buried resentment that is emerging now and is colouring your self perception and your sense of fairness.
I'm not explaining this very well but you have past issues too it seems that are preventing your healing now.
And trust - sorry going to disagree here. Trust cannot be earned like pocket money - trust is either given or its not. It is a gift. The responsibility for keeping the gift of trust is the person who broke it in the first place. If trust is given back to them then it is their responsibility to look after that gift. They must know the consequences of breaking that trust. It is then their decision to keep it.
After my brief fling 17 years ago now - I always felt I had to keep earning my H's trust. It changed me and not for the better. It turned me into a codependent who was so afraid of breaking that trust that I did very little without his say so. I did this to myself - not him.
I felt I had to keep proving I was true and loyal - I had to keep proving I was honest even 15 years later up to pre BD. I did this - not my H.
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S and D I kind of did the same thing..
I let the ex know where I was every single second and it didn't help a thing..all it did was give him more control..here is no instilling trust in someone who isn't capable of trusting.
This would have happened anyway..fling no fling..whether we were perfect..or not.
And I kind of disagree.
After a trust has been broken it would have to be somehow reestablished through a slow process ..there is no desire for me to ever want anything to do with him again..it's more about other relationships.
The anger stage is vital to feel to get through the rest of the greiving process.
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After a trust has been broken it would have to be somehow reestablished through a slow process ..
Init - I actually agree with you here and I am not suggesting that the LBS should turn around and say "It's ok now you're back - I trust you again." That's not the gift - that's foolhardy.
What I mean is that trust is to be given, not made to feel that if the MLCer does well he/she can then earn a few more stars towards total trustworthiness.
I don't think I will ever be able to trust my H again - I want to but I know that it will only ever be given when I am ready to, not because he's earned it. He knows now that how he treated me was wrong and about a year ago said that his behaviour drove an invisible wedge between us and he apologised quite sincerely. Does that make sense?
It comes back to the point made on TMT's thread I think about the fact that at the moment all we do now is trust them to lie and cheat. Turning that around is as much our challenge as it the MLCers.
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I guess Stayed said it best once:
" Once you get knocked on your ass like this it doesn't happen again. And if it does? We know matter what we know we are going to be fine"
Unfortunately for me getting knocked on your ass is in the literal sense besides everything else.
Working on ourselves and our own issues helps us move forward from the devastation they feel so compelled to create.
It does make sense a sincere apology will help in most cases that don't involve physical violence....for me? There's nothing he can say to repair the damage he's done.
I won't be trusting the son of a b!tc# again.