Midlife Crisis: Support for Left Behind Spouses
Archives => Archived Topics => Topic started by: OldPilot on February 10, 2015, 10:31:10 AM
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Time to start another.
http://mlcforum.theherosspouse.com/index.php?topic=6085.0
http://mlcforum.theherosspouse.com/index.php?topic=6104.0
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Can we have beer in this one? :)
On a serious note, I'd like to hear about some of the challenges that other male LBSes have with parenting children (of all ages). Mine are 22, 14 and 10 so 3 very different stages of development and each putting me through the wringer in their own way. Having to be a single/ solo parent is super tough on anyone but I think it can be especially challenging for us guys.
That, and more talk about hypergamy, too. That's very interesting to me lately, and kind of makes me want to just get a dog like Braveheart. I may even name it Braveheart just because.
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My kids are S5 and D9... Ill start with my daughter as she has had lots of issues with w. My w never connected with our d. She has always been "mine" for the most part. I don't think its deliberate on my w part and I have seen her TRY with d. Its just never come natural to her. Here are some of the things my d has said about her mom in the past 6(?) weeks:
"It feels like God gave up on mom", "I don't call her mom anymore, I call her that thing or it", "I don't care when she yells at me anymore. I just look away and say sorry", "I miss the old mom, before she was the devil", "I wish she would die", "Daddy, I wish you would marry someone else and never send me back to moms"
I validate her feelings and ask questions... I listen and I don't betray her trust when she confides in me. As much as ego wants to take over and lash out at w I keep it in as I know it wont help. My d is now in counseling, she seems to like it. Counselor communicates directly with w to address issues so its not coming from me.
I'm trying to teach my daughter it is not her responsibility to make mom or dad happy. I'm trying to teach her not to "chase" other peoples love. I work on her self esteem and want her to be comfortable in her own skin. I want her to be able to love and take care of herself first. She is a GREAT big sister to her brother. More than anything I try to show her what a good man looks like by the way I treat her, my son, my crazy a$$ wife... People in general. Im trying to teach her she is in control of her own emotions and that happiness is a choice.
The two struggles that remain are she has started having academic troubles in school and she doesnt seem to have a passion for anything other than her toys. She seems to want to be home a lot unless I'm with her. For example, grandparents pick kids up from school on Tuesdays and she never wants to do anything other than head back to our house.
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I try to let the Man Cave be just for the men, but I did want to make a hopefully brief comment.
I've seen women hold a man responsible for everything.
I decided early on (even before I had any thoughts of not standing any longer) that I would never hold any other man responsible for what my H has done to me. Just as I didn't hold H responsible for any wrongs done to me before I met him (I had a BF decide to leave/vanish when I was 7 mths pregnant with my youngest child-he was in his 40's and now I believe he was in MLC). Anyhow I agree with TinT that I refuse to allow the crazy $hit that my H has done to me allow me to become a bitter woman. I believe in love, and I believe in LTR's, and I don't NEED someone in my life. I do however want the right person in my life so that we can uplift and support each other. This old $hit of it being a man's responsibility to provide everything is just that bull$hit! A relationship is teamwork, 50/50. I tell my son when dating "Baby you can do bad all by yourself. You need a female who will work BESIDE you to build a life."
Just my NOT so humble opinion ::)
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Attaching!
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Mine were 12 and 18 when BD went down, which I'm very glad of, they were old enough to share more with than if they had been younger. My daughter was old enough to figure out what was probably going on and was furious with her Mom. My son pegged it when I picked him up from summer camp ( Yes, she left while he was at camp). When I informed him his mom had left us and I wasn't sure what was going on he said "Dad, I think Mom must be having a midlife crisis".....It got easier after that, but it's never easy, I found the calendar was my friend to keep things on track...one day at a time...
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My kids are S15,D13 &D5. W left in the middle of the night after 3 horrible months post bd. those 3 months we saw the complete unraveling of w. I had the pleasure of walking in on w cutting her wrist (had to pull the razors out), watching D5 basically be neglected in every way. I had to make some tough choices.
I had the hardest conversation with my kids as they were often home while I was working. I talked to them about "what to do if they found mom". It was both critical and awful wrapped in one. They saw the seriousness first hand so I thought it necessary that they had a plan.
Going through D13 and puberty was again something I wasn't prepared for. W missed out on that one. I can say that these experiences have made my relationships rock solid with my kids. Me and D13 learned how to do hair and everything together. I wasn't going to let this rob my daughter of life.
D5--man. She is my buddy. We have been through so much together. From sleepless nights to potty training...we have gone through it all. W has only recently even been any sort of help the last 4 months. D5 often comes to work with me too.
Routines have been a big key in my kids security through this. Their live has not changed much other than mom is gone. We go grocery shopping together, now the kids fill the cart and plan the week out. It's great to see. I also think being involved in iur church has helped tremendously. It's been like an extended family of people with similar values.
I love my kids....id walk to the ends if the earth for them. I hope that I am a good example to them of what kind of man my a should be, and the type of man i would want my daughters to marry. I definitely don't want them learning the ways of my w.
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8)
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One of the biggest challenges early on was that W and my parenting styles would clash. She, being in a monster mode acted like a total ass, trying to tell me what to do.
Now she leaves me alone and we do our own things. I worry that our values and styles confuse our D's as she's become way more open about tolerating everything and against everything I believe in. I'm sure she doesn't hesitate to bash my advice and values to the girls. After all, she said divorce wouldn't affect them at all as she could provide for all of their emotional needs (as if she can do that).
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My D22 (then 18) and I have bonded in a way I think few Dad's get to, I've actually had to go to a few "Black Tie" events where she's wanted to come. I've actually filled in the Mom role and went clothes shopping with her to pick out dresses with her.
At times though I think she forgets what's gone during happy moments and reverts. This Christmas we went shopping and she held up something and blurted out, "Dad, do you think Mom would like this?", then caught herself, knowing I no longer have a clue, not really even talked to her Mom in over three years...The sadness that come over her in moments like that twists a knife in my guts..
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Superman, it sounds like you're doing a great job.
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D13 is my girl, has been from the word go when we got her home from hospital 3 months after her premature birth. I did all of the night feeds even though I was working full time, xW never once got up in the middle of the night and pretty much left all of the mundane chores of looking after a child to me. I remember that through all of that, I didn’t get a decent night’s sleep until D was about 5 years old.
I too had to go through all of the puberty stuff with D, by that time our divorce was already final, xW had moved out and was with one of her OM’s, she didn’t respond to any of our phone calls to let her know what was happening until much later. Eventually she got round to seeing D.
D is angry with her mother and her OM’s, her response on the possibility of meeting OM’s is “why would I want to meet the man responsible for breaking up our family and robbing me of a happy childhood”. This even applies to xW current boyfriend who she met after the divorce.
D is fully aware of the whole situation, she knows her mother has done wrong, I haven’t hidden anything from her (apart from non age appropriate details). xW on the other had avoids any discussions or starts crying when D asks any questions, yes, that and shouting her down, but never discussing anything.
The only thing that disappoints me is that D will go to live with xW when she eventually buys her house, partly for the bigger bedroom, partly to keep the peace with xW as she know her mother would not be happy if she didn’t move there. Will be interesting to see how that pans out, xW has never lived with D without me being there, I’m sure sparks will fly and I’ll be getting plenty of phone calls.
Lanzo
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D shouldn't have to live there if she doesn't want to. It's not her job to keep the peace.
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xW and I had different approaches to this, I said to D, "I don't mind where you live, so long as you are happy there". xW said to D " you will come and live with me when I get the new house, won't you". So D has taken the path of least resistance. Plus she get the bigger bedroom and the promise of quality time with her mother. We'll see how that works.
Lanzo
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That's what concerns me - D doing something for the wrong reasons. IMO, it's teaches her to do this in the future. I hope you make it clear to her that it is ok to not do it.
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Or that, if it DOESN'T work out, she is always welcome back home with you! As long as daughter is not allowed to "manipulate" the two of you, so she can have her own way... no harm done.
Hugs Stayed
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Just because you have a diddle doesn't mean you can't be a good parent. It p!sses me off that men are made to feel that they have to prove to us females that they worthy parents. Relax men you do an amazing job at raising your daughters. Follow you instincts - add a good amount of discipline, large amount of fun and a massive amount of love and your kids will do great.
There will be other women, besides you wives, that will be a good influence on your girls - teachers, neighbours, family members, their friends mums.
Please relax, do your best and most importantly enjoy them. The job of parenting is a short one!
Kia kaha - stay strong
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A diddle? Lol
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Curious as to how anyone applies the hypergamy concept to mlc affairs when so often it's an affair down. I understand a key component of hypergamy is perception of finding a higher status OM... Which may not be reality. The guys my wife was seeing are losers! They looked physically unfit, don't have good jobs, don't appear financially well off. The 2 I have seen are not alpha males... They don't "get it" per se. I on the other hand and successful, fit, attractive... Maybe mine is the exception but doesn't it seem the affair down is so the MLCer can feel they have control or the upper hand? Isn't it about finding someone they can feel superior to?? That's what i see in my situation.
If I misunderstood and u guys were wanting to talk more about single women your meeting now please disregard my post. I'm not dating yet so I have nothing to add in that area. I am, however, interested to hear about your experiences out there. One thing I've read that made a lot of sense is the idea of maintaing frame in a relationship. I wish I knew and understood that concept years ago... When I lost frame in my marriage it really went down hill fast.
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Maybe mine is the exception but doesn't it seem the affair down is so the MLCer can feel they have control or the upper hand? Isn't it about finding someone they can feel superior to?? That's what i see in my situation.
Correct - it is also what the OP becomes when the initial gloss and fun bit has faded and reality kicks in.
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Missed the first two Man Cave threads, took a little break from Heros Spouse for a while. But I'm back.
The first year with my D4+5, especially the first 6 months was pretty tough. The girls use to grill me at bedtime about why I didn't come home. Those were tough conversations.
They have adjusted pretty well with the new routine. The time we have together 3 days a week is precious and we try to make the most of it...doing lots of fun stuff, art, music, reading...etc.
My XW is still with her OM and he has a 3 year old daughter, as does my GF. So the girls basically have two families now. They love hanging out with my GF and her daughter and are always asking to see them.
I know I am happier now, more so then when I was living at home with her miserable mother. I think the girls know it also, and they seem happier also. I honestly hope my XW is happier but who knows.
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Curious as to how anyone applies the hypergamy concept to mlc affairs when so often it's an affair down. I understand a key component of hypergamy is perception of finding a higher status OM... Which may not be reality. The guys my wife was seeing are losers! They looked physically unfit, don't have good jobs, don't appear financially well off. The 2 I have seen are not alpha males... They don't "get it" per se. I on the other hand and successful, fit, attractive... Maybe mine is the exception but doesn't it seem the affair down is so the MLCer can feel they have control or the upper hand? Isn't it about finding someone they can feel superior to?? That's what i see in my situation.
If I misunderstood and u guys were wanting to talk more about single women your meeting now please disregard my post. I'm not dating yet so I have nothing to add in that area. I am, however, interested to hear about your experiences out there. One thing I've read that made a lot of sense is the idea of maintaing frame in a relationship. I wish I knew and understood that concept years ago... When I lost frame in my marriage it really went down hill fast.
I think is some cases they are looking for something they think they need rather than an upgrade... In my case the guy made way more money, and My X got to run away from responsibility, but on all other fronts...nope.
I've read a great many menopause forums where the women mention just a desire to "Run", or "feeling trapped" , the Om is glorified because he offers a means of escape that has to be justified in some way. Some women go through this whole "I'm Unhappppy" process, but because of a lack of options stay where they are and eventually come out on the other side of it.
Some studies seem to back this up, but it is never described in this way, it's generally stated as "Surveyed couples that were on the brink of divorce, but stayed together report five years later they are far happier...." The five years kind of ties in with how long it take some to get through a MLC.
It does not seem to matter if you are rich or poor, have movie star looks or resemble Danny Divito, they will find someone the direct opposite of you in many cases. Let's face it, if they can no longer stand being around us, picking someone like us would just mean it was all for nothing :)
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Ok, Here we go:
Hypergamy (colloquially referred to as "marrying up") is the act or practice of marrying someone wealthier, or of higher caste or status than oneself.[citation needed] Although the term is not gendered, it is generally used by social scientists to refer to women marrying higher-status men, rather than to men marrying higher-status women.
Studies of heterosexual mate selection in dozens of countries around the world have found men and women report prioritizing different traits when it comes to choosing a mate, with men tending to prefer women who are young and attractive and women tending to prefer men who are rich, well-educated, ambitious, and attractive.[6] Evolutionary psychologists contend this is an inherent sex difference arising out of sexual selection, with men driven to seek women who will give birth to healthy babies and women driven to seek men who will be able to provide the necessary resources for the family's survival. Social learning theorists, however, say women value men with high earning capacity because women's own ability to earn is constrained by their disadvantaged status in a male-dominated society. They argue that as societies shift towards becoming more gender-equal, women's mate selection preferences will shift as well. Some research supports that theory,[7] including a 2012 analysis of a survey of 8,953 people in 37 countries, which found that the more gender-equal a country, the likelier male and female respondents were to report seeking the same qualities as each other rather than different ones.[8] However, Townsend (1989) surveyed medical students regarding their perception of how the availability of marriage partners changed as their educational careers advanced. Eighty-five percent of the women indicated that "As my status increases, my pool of acceptable partners decreases" (p. 246).
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hypergamy (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hypergamy)
Pay close attention to those underlined parts! What this is saying in the modern dating / marriage plan is two things:
1) She sees you for not only your looks, but for your assets and net worth.
2) She requires you to make MORE than her, so as her income rises, she will pursue the higher end of the food chain.
As talked about before, this isn't necessarily a financial decision or the only factor either! There is also social standing & status involved. This is where the talk about "the top 20% of men are dating / sleeping with 80% of the women" and the inverse is true for the other 80% of men. This is essentially what you see in the younger generations, especially college level ages and on into the late 20's.
Ok, so that was from the wiki; here it is in much rawer terms from the manosphere:
The theory is more like this, from what I have read. Hypergamy is a woman’s natural (which is to say, genetically wired) preference for a higher status male–that is, higher status than herself and also higher status than the other men in her field of vision and also perhaps higher status than men she has known in the past and even (at the extremes) higher status than most men she can personally imagine meeting. That cuts across a range of possible relationships, all the way from a ONS to marriage. In all cases, women naturally prefer the highest status man they can get. And sometimes they want so much status that they won’t settle on ANY man they could actually get.
“Status” has a varied meaning in this definition. Certain things correllate with high status, for intance money, prestige, social standing, etc. However a man can have all of that and still be low status because of low status intrapersonal behavior (i.e., needy schlumpitude). The highest possible status male would be rich, good looking, fit, well dressed, high social cache, high prestige job (preferably one which involves risk, physical risk being better than mere monetary risk), and also extroverted, dominant, the leader of his group of friends, able to command any social situation, and so on. However, women are wired to be turned on more by the latter BEHAVORIAL traits than by be the former SUBSTANTIVE traits. So, if you have have to choose one or the other, to get women, be socially dominant and a broke societal loser rather than socially awkward and a rich societal winner. But best to be both, if possible.
As to marriage, sure women want to marry up. But this does not exhaust the effects of hypergamy. Women can marry up–both intrinsically and in their own mind–and still ditch their catch because someone “better” comes along. That is hypergamy at work.
Also, when women are pursuing short and medium term mating, hypergamy has no less force. They always prefer the most socially dominant male they can get. This is often relative (A&B are both a little dweeby but A is more alpha than B and since I want someone NOW I choose A) but sometimes it is more intrinsic (A&B are both a little dweeby and even though A is a little more alpha, since I don’t have to have someone NOW, I am going to hold out for the Real Deal).
It’s not all about marriage. It’s about mate selection accross the range of circumstances.
http://therationalmale.com/2012/03/13/the-hypergamy-conspiracy/ (http://therationalmale.com/2012/03/13/the-hypergamy-conspiracy/)
The female who becomes agitated and pretends to be bothered by the male gaze is very busily deflecting and distracting your attention away from a much darker and significant point she would strongly prefer you were not aware of – and would rather not discuss: her own “hypergamy”. Her instinctual desire to discard her current mate with no feeling or remorse when the opportunity arises to latch onto a subsequent mate of higher status due to the hindbrain impetus to find a male with the best ability to provide for HER OWN offspring (already spawned or yet-to-be spawned) regardless of investments and commitments made to her current mate.
You.
She is hardwired for this. By nature. The last 4 years don’t matter. Whether you paid admission for 4 to Disney World – when the kids weren’t even yours – won’t matter. That you funded her dubious flirtation with returning to school for a useless degree doesn’t matter. That you work 70 hours to earn 6 figures with marketable skills beyond knocking a ball around won’t matter. Even if you are obese and have the face to stop a clock, your $181 Million dollar lottery win makes all the difference. It doesn’t matter WHO you are… it only matters WHAT you are.
Hypergamy. Does. Not. Care.
As societal impediments (both economic and cultural) to the recession of binding monogamous relationships deteriorate, the validity of this theory is being rediscovered to the chagrin of men in the trenches and to the delight of the new social engineers up in the towers.
Hypergamy can make a woman forget anything. Humiliation. Morals. The emotional well-being of her children.
http://www.mgtow.com/video/hypergamy-doesnt-care/
Evolutionary Psychology theory on the instinctual desire of humans of the female sex to discard a current mate when the opportunity arises to latch onto a subsequent mate of higher status due to the hindbrain impetus to find a male with the best ability to provide for her OWN offspring (already spawned or yet-to-be spawned) regardless of investments and commitments made to a current mate.
As societal impediments (both economic and cultural) to the recission of binding monogamous relationships deteriorate, the validity of this theory is being rediscovered to the chagrin of men in the trenches and to the delight of the new social engineers up in the towers.
akin to the notion of "serial monogamy" acknowledged by mainstream culture.
Hypergamy is a savage natural instinct that finds social acceptance when many other such instincts such as polygamy do not.
http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=hypergamy (http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=hypergamy)
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I just want to address this comment from Braveheart on the last thread:
I've had a standard response to the "All my X's were a$$holes" statements from women I've met this past year, it's.."Strange that, have you noticed that all these a$$holes have one thing in common?...You chose them" Needless to say it has not helped my cause in their case, but I feel good saying it and walking away...
Awesome; adding that to my list of witty responses!
Another good one for when a woman asks "where have all the good men gone?" Simply look at her indifferently and replay "Probably taken by all the good women!"
;D ;) 8)
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My response to "I'm a single mom" convo goes as follows...
Me: I'm sorry your husband passed away
Her: oh no, we r divorced
Me: wow that's terrible that a father would leave his wife and kids.
Her: oh no, I left him.
Me: I see. He must have been horribly abusive for you to take feel the need to leave like that.
You can see where this leads... Nowhere good for either of us.
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Actually that info IS good to know.
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My response to "I'm a single mom" convo goes as follows...
Me: I'm sorry your husband passed away
Her: oh no, we r divorced
Me: wow that's terrible that a father would leave his wife and kids.
Her: oh no, I left him.
Me: I see. He must have been horribly abusive for you to take feel the need to leave like that.
You can see where this leads... Nowhere good for either of us.
Well unless she says - no I was tired of being cheated on.
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My response to "I'm a single mom" convo goes as follows...
Me: I'm sorry your husband passed away
Her: oh no, we r divorced
Me: wow that's terrible that a father would leave his wife and kids.
Her: oh no, I left him.
Me: I see. He must have been horribly abusive for you to take feel the need to leave like that.
You can see where this leads... Nowhere good for either of us.
Well unless she says - no I was tired of being cheated on.
Well that's a possibility. According to the stats that are available on cheating, in modern divorces reasons for them has cheating by hubby is in the bottom 25%....but as I and many others have observed, it's rare the husband is not described in a very negative light. I did have one recently admit she still loves the guy she divorced almost ten years ago and the reasons why she left now seem very minor...
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How does the hypergamy work in my case then. My h's ow is less attractive, less confident and only 4 years younger than me. So at 40 she is past her childbearing years??
Sd
X
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Well that's a possibility. According to the stats that are available on cheating, in modern divorces reasons for them has cheating by hubby is in the bottom 25%....but as I and many others have observed, it's rare the husband is not described in a very negative light. I did have one recently admit she still loves the guy she divorced almost ten years ago and the reasons why she left now seem very minor...
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I believe these numbers have and are changing more and more in recent times, say in the past 20 years.
Men used to be the ones back in the day. Now as stereotypes and roles have changed, more and more women are doing exactly the same thing they used to complain that men were doing.
Those that heavily influence societal norms such as the media, entertainment industry, rights groups, those who make the laws, and judges have also played a huge role in turning things upside down. There truly are no commitment guarantees anymore. Society is definitely all about self and selfishness.
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Those that heavily influence societal norms such as the media, entertainment industry, rights groups, those who make the laws, and judges have also played a huge role in turning things upside down. There truly are no commitment guarantees anymore. Society is definitely all about self and selfishness.
For a college educated 40 something AFC (average f*cking chump) with a house half paid for, and a decent income, the divorce courts have effectively placed a $500,000- 1M bounty on his ass. That might be why, in this cohort, Women file 70-80% of the time, depending on the source of your stats.
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I just wanted to say that as a LBS with a MLCer. My H was on his way to filing for divorce right after he cashed in our retirement to do so. I found out and had to file for the divorce just to protect myself financially. That is the only reason I filed because it would stop him from running off with our joint account. How many woman fit my profile and had to do something they didn't want to do just because they had to? Now, I'm down as the one who filed when he's the one that wants the divorce so he can spend his time as a 52 year old with a 32 year.
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I feel you are right the courts are heavily weighted to the female. BUT, in a lot of ways you can see how this came about. 9 times out of 10 its the woman's earning that suffers due to child responsibilities and the man continues to earn, continues to have his employers put all their proportion towards his retirement. (Sorry if not like that in the US).
For 10 years i was only able to put a small portion towards my pension fund, my h has it all in his. Why because i was here taking care of my kids. Should i be the one to visit the soup kitchen when i am 75 as my h shops in the supermarket? When it was a JOINT decision that i go part time. Really did we not do this together?
I see that it is not right when someone gets what they DONT deserve, but what about what they DO. The courts need to find the middle ground.
Its the old story that a small proportion of women have paved the way by demanding too much so that we are all tarred with the gold digger brush. I personally would not take what i am not due.
Sd
X
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The group that doesnt deserve it and the has the strongest lobby is the LAWYERS!!
I believe they are behind almost everything that happens.
It is all about THEM making $$$$$.
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Let's face it, if they can no longer stand being around us, picking someone like us would just mean it was all for nothing
This seems very true to me and we must remember the OM has to be more broken than her because of MLC, which eliminates us or men like us. Good men, not perfect but good.
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How does the hypergamy work in my case then. My h's ow is less attractive, less confident and only 4 years younger than me. So at 40 she is past her childbearing years??
Sd
X
hypergamy is a female thing, it does not apply to men. Your H's OW probably thinks he's a step up from what she had in her previous relationship.
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Sorry braveheart, i assumed it applied to both and didnt google it.
Okay so yeah she probably does think that, however its all an illusion because he is a step up BEACAUSE he is with me. I am the higher earner and without me he would never have had what he does. Her h does the same job as mine, gets paid the same. Only difference is that my h played in a band and "being with the band" gave her some social status.
So all you guys want to be is "someone elses something better"? ;D ;)
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I feel you are right the courts are heavily weighted to the female. BUT, in a lot of ways you can see how this came about. 9 times out of 10 its the woman's earning that suffers due to child responsibilities and the man continues to earn, continues to have his employers put all their proportion towards his retirement. (Sorry if not like that in the US).
For 10 years i was only able to put a small portion towards my pension fund, my h has it all in his. Why because i was here taking care of my kids. Should i be the one to visit the soup kitchen when i am 75 as my h shops in the supermarket? When it was a JOINT decision that i go part time. Really did we not do this together?
I see that it is not right when someone gets what they DONT deserve, but what about what they DO. The courts need to find the middle ground.
Its the old story that a small proportion of women have paved the way by demanding too much so that we are all tarred with the gold digger brush. I personally would not take what i am not due.
Sd
X
By law all of what you say is taken into account when assets are divided up. This is a male centered thread and we are not talking about wives in bad marriages that are forced into divorce. We are talking about wives who have walked out of low conflict marriages and blown up their families to go play with the OM.
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My wife was depressed and confused and the OM is a narcissistic predator so I don't think hypergamy had anything to do with it. And I think the circumstances are much the same for many of us LBSes, both male and female.
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Sorry braveheart, i assumed it applied to both and didnt google it.
Okay so yeah she probably does think that, however its all an illusion because he is a step up BEACAUSE he is with me. I am the higher earner and without me he would never have had what he does. Her h does the same job as mine, gets paid the same. Only difference is that my h played in a band and "being with the band" gave her some social status.
So all you guys want to be is "someone elses something better"? ;D ;)
Yeah, guys in bands are highly attractive to a lot of women, especially ones in MLC who are revisiting their late teens to early 20's. Sadly what I run into in the dating world is just that, divorced women looking for a better deal... As soon as it becomes apparent that's the case, it doesn't get passed the first date...All I ever wanted I already had, a loving wife, a couple of kids, a dog and home, but it wasn't enough for her.
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My wife was depressed and confused and the OM is a narcissistic predator so I don't think hypergamy had anything to do with it. And I think the circumstances are much the same for many of us LBSes, both male and female.
Sometimes they just want to run when in that state and the OM is just a safe haven.
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Sadly what I run into in the dating world is just that, divorced women looking for a better deal...
Maybe you are looking in the wrong places or for the wrong people.
Might be time to change something up there.
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The group that doesnt deserve it and the has the strongest lobby is the LAWYERS!!
I believe they are behind almost everything that happens.
It is all about THEM making $$$$$.
f*ck lawyers (except Canuck). Scum-sucking bottom-feeding low-life bastards. I think everyone knows why I feel this way. That is all.
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How does the hypergamy work in my case then. My h's ow is less attractive, less confident and only 4 years younger than me. So at 40 she is past her childbearing years??
Sd
X
hypergamy is a female thing, it does not apply to men. Your H's OW probably thinks he's a step up from what she had in her previous relationship.
Mate poaching! The OW probably had unsuccessful relationships as Braveheart suggested. Your H was/is married and irrelevant of who earns what, gives the appearance of successful man willing to commit and take responsibility. This is female "pre-selection" at work.
Combine that with the "forbidden fruit" and "want what you don't have" and she poaches your mate! Very common actually!
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The group that doesnt deserve it and the has the strongest lobby is the LAWYERS!!
I believe they are behind almost everything that happens.
It is all about THEM making $$$$$.
f*ck lawyers (except Canuck). Scum-sucking bottom-feeding low-life bastards. I think everyone knows why I feel this way. That is all.
Thundarr,
I like this "new you" with attitude! Please continue, sir! 8)
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The group that doesnt deserve it and the has the strongest lobby is the LAWYERS!!
I believe they are behind almost everything that happens.
It is all about THEM making $$$$$.
f*ck lawyers (except Canuck). Scum-sucking bottom-feeding low-life bastards. I think everyone knows why I feel this way. That is all.
Thundarr,
I like this "new you" with attitude! Please continue, sir! 8)
Definitely agree with all three of you!
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Sadly what I run into in the dating world is just that, divorced women looking for a better deal...
Maybe you are looking in the wrong places or for the wrong people.
Might be time to change something up there.
OP this last couple of years I've been to every social event I can fit into my schedule. I've hit all levels from $250.00 a plate Black Tie Gala's to free Street Dances, volunteered for several charities, taken dance lessons, joined a theater troupe and a half dozen "Meet Up" groups. I've also done the whole online dating thing as well....So there really is not much ground I haven't covered. My experience has been that the 45+ dating pool is full of drowning women, the ones that seem to have it all together are still married.
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How does the hypergamy work in my case then. My h's ow is less attractive, less confident and only 4 years younger than me. So at 40 she is past her childbearing years??
Sd
X
hypergamy is a female thing, it does not apply to men. Your H's OW probably thinks he's a step up from what she had in her previous relationship.
Mate poaching! The OW probably had unsuccessful relationships as Braveheart suggested. Your H was/is married and irrelevant of who earns what, gives the appearance of successful man willing to commit and take responsibility. This is female "pre-selection" at work.
Combine that with the "forbidden fruit" and "want what you don't have" and she poaches your mate! Very common actually!
"Mate Poaching", that was the term I was looking for. Back in my married years that gambit was tried on me more than once by single women that knew my wife.
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f*ck lawyers (except Canuck). Scum-sucking bottom-feeding low-life bastards. I think everyone knows why I feel this way. That is all.
;D ;D >:( >:( ;D ;D
Totally agree!
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Sadly what I run into in the dating world is just that, divorced women looking for a better deal...
Maybe you are looking in the wrong places or for the wrong people.
Might be time to change something up there.
OP this last couple of years I've been to every social event I can fit into my schedule. I've hit all levels from $250.00 a plate Black Tie Gala's to free Street Dances, volunteered for several charities, taken dance lessons, joined a theater troupe and a half dozen "Meet Up" groups. I've also done the whole online dating thing as well....So there really is not much ground I haven't covered. My experience has been that the 45+ dating pool is full of drowning women, the ones that seem to have it all together are still married.
I can think of (at least) one who (thought she) had it all together...who is no longer married.
I don't think that I am unique.....
L
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f*ck lawyers (except Canuck). Scum-sucking bottom-feeding low-life bastards. I think everyone knows why I feel this way. That is all.
;D ;D >:( >:( ;D ;D
Totally agree!
Sorry had a giggle - we call the ow a "skate" which is the name of a bottom feeding fish. Maybe we should rename lawyers to scum-sucking skates :D
Kia kaha - stay strong
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I can think of (at least) one who (thought she) had it all together...who is no longer married.
I don't think that I am unique.....
I think there are a lot of divorced ladies on HS who have it all together but I don't think many of them are out looking for a date.
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People I was interested in in the past (like only 2 thus far) had no interest in me. And vice versa. Fate.
When I first joined my current dance class, most of the men didn't want to dance with me. Now I have men from my dance class being all touchy feely and when I give off my usual don't-come-near-me vibe, they still grab me to show me dance steps even after I had expressed disinterest. All I can think of is, you may be 10-20 years older but that doesn't mean I'm a kid. That's manhandling and it's so rude. Major turn-off. I go there just for exercise since I hate sports unless it's artistic like dance, not to hook a guy.
And just last week, the owner of a drink stall (been there less than 10 times but he had been friendly recently). He wanted to know if he could ask me something. I said sure. He asked me if I was married. I said no. He said you probably have a bf then and I said no. Then as I turned to walk to my table with my drink, he said within earshot of all the customers: "If you have no bf then can I be your bf?" OMG. Even if he was kidding. Please.
Yes, I'm looking for a better deal. So are you.
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People I was interested in in the past (like only 2 thus far) had no interest in me. And vice versa. Fate.
When I first joined my current dance class, most of the men didn't want to dance with me. Now I have men from my dance class being all touchy feely and when I give off my usual don't-come-near-me vibe, they still grab me to show me dance steps even after I had expressed disinterest. All I can think of is, you may be 10-20 years older but that doesn't mean I'm a kid. That's manhandling and it's so rude. Major turn-off. I go there just for exercise since I hate sports unless it's artistic like dance, not to hook a guy.
And just last week, the owner of a drink stall (been there less than 10 times but he had been friendly recently). He wanted to know if he could ask me something. I said sure. He asked me if I was married. I said no. He said you probably have a bf then and I said no. Then as I turned to walk to my table with my drink, he said within earshot of all the customers: "If you have no bf then can I be your bf?" OMG. Even if he was kidding. Please.
Yes, I'm looking for a better deal. So are you.
I joined dance classes because I needed to get out of the house after BD and expand my social network, I didn't really attempt any dating for two years...It's been my experience it's only manhandling when the man is unattractive in some way. I've watched this play out numerous times in social events where men have approached women in an identical manner, simply asking her to dance, the unworthy guy gets a terse "No thanks" or scowls, the worthy doesn't. The top 20% of guys get 80% of the approval of the women in the room.
The fellow who owned the drink stall was simply cutting to the chase and not wasting time. Your reaction would tell him right away if you were receptive or not, it's a "nothing ventured, nothing gained" approach. Your reaction would also indicate qualities about your personality that he would either find attractive or distasteful.
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People I was interested in in the past (like only 2 thus far) had no interest in me. And vice versa. Fate.
When I first joined my current dance class, most of the men didn't want to dance with me. Now I have men from my dance class being all touchy feely and when I give off my usual don't-come-near-me vibe, they still grab me to show me dance steps even after I had expressed disinterest. All I can think of is, you may be 10-20 years older but that doesn't mean I'm a kid. That's manhandling and it's so rude. Major turn-off. I go there just for exercise since I hate sports unless it's artistic like dance, not to hook a guy.
And just last week, the owner of a drink stall (been there less than 10 times but he had been friendly recently). He wanted to know if he could ask me something. I said sure. He asked me if I was married. I said no. He said you probably have a bf then and I said no. Then as I turned to walk to my table with my drink, he said within earshot of all the customers: "If you have no bf then can I be your bf?" OMG. Even if he was kidding. Please.
Yes, I'm looking for a better deal. So are you.
I joined dance classes because I needed to get out of the house after BD and expand my social network, I didn't really attempt any dating for two years...It's been my experience it's only manhandling when the man is unattractive in some way. I've watched this play out numerous times in social events where men have approached women in an identical manner, simply asking her to dance, the unworthy guy gets a terse "No thanks" or scowls, the worthy doesn't. The top 20% of guys get 80% of the approval of the women in the room.
The fellow who owned the drink stall was simply cutting to the chase and not wasting time. Your reaction would tell him right away if you were receptive or not, it's a "nothing ventured, nothing gained" approach. Your reaction would also indicate qualities about your personality that he would either find attractive or distasteful.
Artistic dancing aside, and yes it is great exercise, but in reality it's an excuse for two people to get extremely close and even touch and put their hands on each other in an "accepted" way. It's essentially an accepted safe form of "kino", especially applied in a club environment. Look at some of the club dancing out there; it's essentially sex with your clothes on! Now I understand you all took dancing classes / lessons for your particular reasons. A lot of people take lessons to meet people, not just for the exercise or to learn a social skill. It's a way to mingle closely / physically with the opposite sex! it is estimated that either the primary or secondary LL for most men is Physical Touch!
Agree with the reasoning whether it is considered manhandling or not! It's based on whether the man is attractive enough for the woman to allow him to touch them!
I agree that the guy at the stall was just being up front and asking; he was honest that he was obviously attracted to you, is all! From what you typed, ("OMG. Even if he was kidding. Please."), I am guessing you were visibly disgusted with him and your body language & probably a scowl or eye roll confirmed it!
I'm curious as to why? Was he physically repulsive? Was it just that he was forward? Was it because you think he is beneath you status-wise?
Just curious is all.
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My personal thoughts on this Mad Hatter,
It would have been flattering but way too forward. I'd get the impression he did that to all the women and think he was probably a player...or drunk.
Even if the guy was drop dead handsome it would have turned me off. Honestly.
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My personal thoughts on this Mad Hatter,
It would have been flattering but way too forward. I'd get the impression he did that to all the women and think he was probably a player...or drunk.
Even if the guy was drop dead handsome it would have turned me off. Honestly.
That's what the girls all say, but it's rare I've ever seen a woman not get lift from the experince of an attractive man paying them attention in some way.
The guy in the bar used the simplest approach and one I was taught at 8 by an old Romanian Gypsy who worked for my uncle.
The Gypsy used to tease me about girls all the time and said the easiest way to get one was to go where there were lots of pretty girls and ask them if they wanted to kiss.... I told him , " But they'd slap my face!" , He said, "Yes, maybe 8 or 9 out of ten, but one will say yes and the others will wonder what they missed....". I often wished I'd followed his advice much , much earlier
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Braveheart, you are absolutely spot on. In all my years in HR i have never had a cAse of sexual harassment made against a man who is attractive. I guess the attractive ones would have gone down to a giggle and a blush !
I have had whistles out of cars and horns honked at me on the road i walk on the way to work. Let me tell you at 44 that makes me very happy. When that stops, i will NOT be happy. ;D
I believe that any woman who tells you otherwise is telling a little bit of a fib.
Sd
X
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Braveheart, you are absolutely spot on. In all my years in HR i have never had a cAse of sexual harassment made against a man who is attractive. I guess the attractive ones would have gone down to a giggle and a blush !
I have had whistles out of cars and horns honked at me on the road i walk on the way to work. Let me tell you at 44 that makes me very happy. When that stops, i will NOT be happy. ;D
I believe that any woman who tells you otherwise is telling a little bit of a fib.
Sd
X
Out of curiosity, since you work HR, in all those years, how many sexual harassment complaints have come from men?
;) ;) ;)
(http://cdn.someecards.com/someecards/usercards/MjAxNC1lZDFhNzRiNjRlZWM2ODRj.png)
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Yes, I'm looking for a better deal. So are you.
No, I'm not.
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Yes, I'm looking for a better deal. So are you.
No, I'm not.
Because we are not driven by hypergamy!
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Yes, I'm looking for a better deal. So are you.
No, I'm not.
Because we are not driven by hypergamy!
I guess if I were looking for a better deal I wouldn't mind trading up, but again, I'm not.
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Madhatter, in answer to your question zero, nadda, none!
In the ones i have come across i have to say this genuinely, that the women had a lot more to do with it that they ever admitted to. Hmmm. To be fair its a dying complaint these days in our politically correct Britain. We all joke that it ought to be brought back ;)
Sd
X
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The rules are stacked in their favor, without a doubt. When I managed, our company used to have a yearly manager's meeting with the company's attorneys. You would not believe what we were told. It even shocked a few of the ladies. Basically it boiled down to this: WHITE MEN had better be extra careful in the workplace. They had better dot all their i's and cross their t's because they had to prove their innocence, not the other way around.
Yes, lawyers are scumbags and love this system because it makes them money but once again, those who made the laws in the first place are the most responsible. And trust me, it didn't happen by accident.
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superdog,
Have you ever had a "not attractive" woman complain of sexual harassment?
I'm just curious. Were the women pretty much young, pretty women?
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No thunder far from it. Never from a young attractive woman. I kind of avoided saying this earlier, but it was generally older women who had clearly been over confident and flirty and when they got to the stage of not knowing how to handle it, they cried harassment. I felt really sorry for a man once who had been in this sitch with his colleague until her h started asking questions, guess what came next !
Sd
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First of all, I'm now a single woman who is free to date anyone I want. And don't say the woman you met online/who seems interested in you/met at a bar etc has issues/wrinkles that need ironing etc and tell me that you are not looking to trade up. I dare you to come back and declare that your partner is a trade down when you finally find her.
My MLCer was not attractive, he was and still is, less educated than me, and he was in debt when I met him and agreed to be his gf. We're not talking about $ or status here. What attracts me first and foremost is kindness, and what blows me away is intellect. I'm 'trading up' (as a single and free woman) for these two factors. My MLCer was kind before MLC (years before BD) if you're wondering, but being with him, I regressed in almost every other way. You can be the richest and most handsome guy on the planet but one tiny hint that you are unkind and it immediately repulses me. For example, I have not seen any of your faces but I have an idea of who I probably wouldn't date even if you turn out to be the richest or most handsome guy on earth. Or even the last guy on earth. I'm not talking about hypergamy when I talk about trading up.
The other question was about the drinks stall owner. No, I wasn't rude to him. I giggled and made it seem like it was a joke between us. And that might be my problem. Too nice to embarrass you in front of everyone else unless you are obviously a jerk who deserves to be tasered. He owns the stall, I own nothing. But he doesn't meet any of my basic requirements. I've exchanged pleasantries with him maybe 3 times prior and I know nothing about him that I can't see and vice versa. To ask someone to be your gf just like that?
The question about dance class: It's a mixed bag of men, some are married, one is there with his wife. One is handicapped. Attractiveness does play a part, but attractiveness is not only about physical appearance. It is also about how you carry yourself, what's in your heart and mind, how much of a gentleman you are. Say an attractive man grabs me (non-sexually) against my will. That's a -2. When an unattractive guy does it, that's a -5. When an ugly disgusting slob does it, it's a -50. Yes there is a ranking, but no one gets a plus. And it's professional latin dancing. I don't club. Never have, never will.
-Scenario-
a short break during dance sequence as instructor explains a particular hand movement in detail
Guy: *tries to explain step to me over the instructor thereby annoying me as I want to hear what the instructor has to say and not what he has to say*
Me: *smiles and nods politely and turns away to look at the instructor*
Guy: *still goes on and on then grabs my arm to manipulate it*
Me: *I nod and say ok and turn away in displeasure to focus on the instructor*
Guy: *drags me to a corner and forces me to practise the arm movement as a pair*
Nothing sexual, pure manhandling.
I notice that when I do not respond to a guy's interest in me, they tend to start to use force. And if they still can't get a response from me, the smarter ones drop it, and me altogether. Ha.
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paradigmshift,
As this is a Men's forum I'll give some male advice. Most of the issues you've mention with manhandling at the dance class could have been solved simply talking to instructor about this issue or telling these guys to politely back off if they bother you. Laughing it off gives false signals and only encourages them to pursue.
Guys that are successful at dating know it's a numbers game and they have to take the initiative, but are not going to waste their time on someone who does not seem receptive. The guy who runs the bar probably uses that same line he used on you all the time, why? because it works often enough on the women he meets to make it worth his while.
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paradigmshift,
As this is a Men's forum I'll give some male advice. Most of the issues you've mention with manhandling at the dance class could have been solved simply talking to instructor about this issue or telling these guys to politely back off if they bother you. Laughing it off gives false signals and only encourages them to pursue.
I understand this, but 1) we randomly rotate partners and I do not want to offend anyone outright as most of them have known each other for the last 8 or so years and I just joined 2 months ago, 2) I come from a culture similar to the Japanese/Chinese culture where giving the other party 'face' is the polite thing to do. But yes, I get what you are saying and thank you.
Guys that are successful at dating know it's a numbers game and they have to take the initiative, but are not going to waste their time on someone who does not seem receptive. The guy who runs the bar probably uses that same line he used on you all the time, why? because it works often enough on the women he meets to make it worth his while.
And now I understand why people manage to get into a new relationship/change partners so quickly, and break up just as quickly, and I take forever. Lol.
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And now I understand why people manage to get into a new relationship/change partners so quickly, and break up just as quickly, and I take forever. Lol.
I think if someone does that too often or gets hurt too badly they lose the ability to truly emotionally invest themselves again. When my X abandoned our marriage it left me profoundly broken, but I still keep looking.
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superdog,
Thanks or your reply.
I only asked that because my X works in a warehouse with a lot of people and he tells me stories about the harassment issue.
The women who have filed the harassment suits are all young, good looking women. The men who harassed are all married men. None of the women were older and none of the guys were single.
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"When my ex abandoned our marriage it left me profoundly broken"
That's exactly how I feel... Went out last night and had a married female friend tell me she's looking for a relationship outside her marriage and asked if I'm interested. She's attractive, fit, good career... No thank u. I was moderately flattered at first. Now I'm disgusted.
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Attractive, fit, good career, and disgusting. Agreed.
The "profoundly broken" bit is why I feel that only another LBS would ever have a chance to connect with me.
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No thank u. I was moderately flattered at first. Now I'm disgusted.
Considering what you (we) have gone through that is a very healthy reaction I think. Anything else would be broken.
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No thank u. I was moderately flattered at first. Now I'm disgusted.
Considering what you (we) have gone through that is a very healthy reaction I think. Anything else would be broken.
Disgusts me as well, I've run into it several times, met women who appeared very interested, but found out from others they were married. Now I do a google on them with my phone, but even then many of these married women have social media pages with no relationship status listed and virtually no pictures of their husbands anywhere....
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Disgusts me as well, I've run into it several times, met women who appeared very interested, but found out from others they were married. Now I do a google on them with my phone, but even then many of these married women have social media pages with no relationship status listed and virtually no pictures of their husbands anywhere....
Firstly, let me say that the few times I have managed to get onto this thread, I have really enjoyed the guys perspective. Now I'd like some advice :)
H and I are reconciling so the territory has changed and I am still learning the extent of his changes. He probably is too. There is a wannabe OW in our situation who has gone to great lengths to sell the virtues of a future with her. Initially H saw this as flattering too. It took him a while to push back on her and give her a strong message that he wasn't interested.
She has caused him trouble at work and obviously really pi$$ed me off yet he felt bad ignoring her calls the other day. What is up with this? I want to scream at him "are you kidding me?, she is completely disrespecting you, me, and our family by continuously breaching your boundaries" He tells me each time she calls because he has learnt that it's important to me. He doesn't speak to her unless she calls from an unknown number and then he keeps it very short, keeps a log of the call and has told her not to call him. There is nothing more he can DO but I am still really pi$$ed that he had any empathy for her.
I know for sure that, in the past, he had a soft spot for anyone who was 'brave' enough to reveal their feelings. The old romantic in him thought it was a testament to their feelings that they would be prepared to bare their souls to someone who is clearly unavailable. I sense that there is still a little bit of this 'nice guy' on board and it scares me. This 'nice guy' has caused me a great deal of hurt over the years. What about now?
How do I get a sense of where he is without it looking like I doubt him. He (and we) are a work in progress and I swear I have my L plates on when it comes to communicating now. Any suggestions from the well rounded dudes on this forum would be super appreciated. Do you think that you guys would have taken this interest from women at face value before you saw and felt the other side of this sort of betrayal?
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Do you think that you guys would have taken this interest from women at face value before you saw and felt the other side of this sort of betrayal?
Taking an interest in any woman other than my W is a recipe for disaster (and disrespectful to W) and if the situations were reversed I would say WTF. None of this will come to any good, it is always bad news.
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Personally HopeandFaith, I don't know why you WOULD NOT DOUBT your h. Why would you want to hide that? Sorry, but your spouse betrayed you! He lied, cheated and abandoned you. Why would you worry about whether he THINKS you doubt him or not? Surely he KNOWS you doubt/distrust him! How could you not?
Hugs Stayed
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Do you guys have any advice on how to guide girls whose dad left them just at the point where they would be having relationships? We talk openly and honestly and I try to stress that while there are differences b/t the sexes, one is not better than the other-men are not the bad guys. Still they were 14 and 17 when the most important man in their life pretty much abandoned them.
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For hope and faith,
He needs to cut off ALL contact with OW period. This is on him, not so much OW, because it's up to him if he wants to break it off. He's a big boy. He must break off all ties and I wouldn't accept anything less.
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Do you guys have any advice on how to guide girls whose dad left them just at the point where they would be having relationships? We talk openly and honestly and I try to stress that while there are differences b/t the sexes, one is not better than the other-men are not the bad guys. Still they were 14 and 17 when the most important man in their life pretty much abandoned them.
It would be great if they would ask us questions about such things. Are they asking any advice from you?
Unfortunately, most teens do their own thing growing up and think they know it all.
One thing, it is good you and they are talking openly about it. That's all you can do. Life teaches the rest.
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Hopeandfaith,
Menow is straight on it.!
Your h is yet still intrigued by the attentions of this woman. He is not done.
If he is true in wanting to be with you, then you would not have this issue, he would have taken care of it, end of. Stand back and watch and work on your detachment again.
Sd
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Unfortunately, most teens do their own thing growing up and think they know it all.
One thing I have found is that after about age 25 we become smart again.
Then they start looking for advice from their parents.
As teenagers we need to just LET GO and hope that we
trained them well to find their way..... Just my observations.
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And OP,
I'll say this is the way things were designed to be. All stages of life have their own discovery and exploration lessons. The teen years are usually filled with exploring sexuality and social circles. Unfortunately, some choices can have serious consequences. But yes, train them well and let them grow up. That part is our job, the rest is theirs.
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Thanks OP and MeNow. Oddly enough they seem to really like me and value my thoughts. They don't ask advice, I just worry about their self esteem and what they might unconsciously seek out in partners later. One worrisome thing is as D15 observed, "All our friends seem to have problem lives"! I was like, "oh God, here is my copy of Codependent No More". But I spend a lot of time with their friends and they are good kids. You're right, all we can do is let go.
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Thanks OP and MeNow. Oddly enough they seem to really like me and value my thoughts. They don't ask advice, I just worry about their self esteem and what they might unconsciously seek out in partners later. One worrisome thing is as D15 observed, "All our friends seem to have problem lives"! I was like, "oh God, here is my copy of Codependent No More". But I spend a lot of time with their friends and they are good kids. You're right, all we can do is let go.
Well, all I can say is aliens came and stole my daughter at about 14 and left a Pod Person in her place. She listened to very little either her mother or myself had to say...Somewhere around 19 the Aliens brought back my daughter, who like her pre 14 self asks me for quite a bit of advice now ;)
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My D22 was 18 when XW left and grew closer to me once again after her own alien abduction. In recent years she has started asking me for advice more, but unfortunately hasn't been following it very much. Hopefully age 25 brings some much needed changes in her.
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I must have been bad in a previous life - I have a D13 and and xp43 that both act like mad Uncle Jack :o
Kia kaha - stay strong
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Do you think that you guys would have taken this interest from women at face value before you saw and felt the other side of this sort of betrayal?
Hope, if it were me I would be flattered but would make sure she knew I wasn't interested. If she persisted I would get angry and would start thinking stalker.
bipolared, I think the most important thing anyone needs to know at any age is that falling in love is not the same thing as loving somebody. The infatuation you feel at the beginning of a relationship is not real and distorts your thinking. You need to wait for the infatuation to wear off so that you can learn who the other person is before you even begin to think about having a serious relationship with them. See how you feel about them after dating for one to two years.
And having been a teenage boy, I know there is one thing on their minds but if they really like a girl they'll be willing to wait. And if they're not willing to wait, they're too selfish. Let them go.
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Thank you to everyone for taking the time to respond to my question - which I think I didn't word too well.
Hope, if it were me I would be flattered but would make sure she knew I wasn't interested. If she persisted I would get angry and would start thinking stalker.
This is pretty much what has happened. I should point out that H is the wannabe OW and her boyfriend's boss. They were both really good friends of ours and particularly H's when we split (shoulda smelled a rat then). They were both sounding boards for him so it was a bit of a shock to realize she had been reading this differently. Her bf didn't know about her feelings then but now he does and blames H. H acknowledges that he's a soft target because of his deplorable social behavior over the previous 18 months and coped well when the bf sent a scathing character assassination to H's bosses. The truth hurt and he accepted that as penance for his previous behavior. Luckily, he had already spoken to HR about the situation and it's stalker like qualities so they were already supporting H to have nothing to do with this girl. Superdog, I think you would agree that blocking communication between a staff member and their boss is tricky territory and H is treading very carefully so that he doesn't become the target of the woman scorned. She has been redirected to 2 other staff members in the event she needs something. One is below H and one is above H in the company hierarchy
For hope and faith,
He needs to cut off ALL contact with OW period. This is on him, not so much OW, because it's up to him if he wants to break it off. He's a big boy. He must break off all ties and I wouldn't accept anything less.
He's done this - even though there was nothing to technically break off. He's also told her that they will never be friends again.
That ship has sailed.
Personally HopeandFaith, I don't know why you WOULD NOT DOUBT your h. Why would you want to hide that? Sorry, but your spouse betrayed you! He lied, cheated and abandoned you. Why would you worry about whether he THINKS you doubt him or not? Surely he KNOWS you doubt/distrust him! How could you not?
Hugs Stayed
Stayed - I remember reading that your H tried to sweep his behavior under the mat when he first returned and you had to lead him back to his mess and rub his nose in it - so to speak! I haven't had this problem with H but I hope that if I had, I would handle it appropriately. He is working hard to fix a mess that is not of his making (other than by reputation) and I respect that. I know that respect goes a long way for men. He has earned it. Am I wary of him - you betcha. I'd be stupid not to be and I think you were just being your lovely protective self and making sure that my eyes are wide open. I thank you for that - you truly are an LBS warrior.
You guys sort of answered my original question which stemmed out of me being pi$$ed off that he should feel bad for ignoring her calls. It made me reflect of what he has done to control the situation. Do I think he will be somehow tricked into having an affair with her (which I think was the underlying fear) - NO. Does he need to hate her 24/7 to keep me safe - NO. Is my trying to convince him to hate her 24/7 a good idea - NO! In fact that would probably be counter-productive. Why do we need constant reminders to step back and let the bad people trip over themselves? Having said all that - EYES WIDE OPEN
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I was under the impression from your post he was answering her calls. If not, that's different.
No,don't expect him to hate her. I don't hate my former AP but she is out of my life and my thoughts. She's in her proper place. Stay attuned to whether this is the case. Bear in mind he may need some grieving time if split with OW was recent. But NO MORE CONTACT. Stay guarded and enforce your boundaries.
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I was under the impression from your post he was answering her calls. If not, that's different.
No,don't expect him to hate her. I don't hate my former AP but she is out of my life and my thoughts. She's in her proper place. Stay attuned to whether this is the case. Bear in mind he may need some grieving time if split with OW was recent. But NO MORE CONTACT. Stay guarded and enforce your boundaries.
He has answered 2 calls in the last 3 months but this is because he didn't know it was her. He doesn't answer 'no caller id' calls - figures they can leave a message. On this occasion, she called from the Crew Room which is a number he has to answer because it could be any one of his 100 or so pilots based in this town. On the other occasion he answered a mobile number he didn't recognize because, again, it's his work phone and there are 340 odd pilots who might contact him. He kept the calls short and will hang up in future because she has been told to call someone else. He also calls me straight away to let me know in an effort to be transparent. He learnt a long time ago that just because it doesn't matter to him, it doesn't mean that I don't want to know about it.
I think we have both grieved the loss of the friendship or more particularly, the breach of trust from her. She never was an OW. They never had a relationship. He started withdrawing his friendship last July. Sad really because I once crowned her 'the coolest chick to ski behind our boat' - ironically it was because she just wouldn't let go (despite her baby giraffe impersonation)
I might take this conversation back to my thread now if no one minds. I am just conscious of hi-jacking the fella's thread and making it all about me ::). Unless of course, it stirs up anything that you guys find relevant to your situations or perceptions of men. http://mlcforum.theherosspouse.com/index.php?topic=6084.msg398668#new
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I think we have both grieved the loss of the friendship or more particularly, the breach of trust from her. She never was an OW. They never had a relationship. He started withdrawing his friendship last July. Sad really because I once crowned her 'the coolest chick to ski behind our boat' - ironically it was because she just wouldn't let go (despite her baby giraffe impersonation)
See, I have never understood the opposite sex "friendship" thing? That just provides fertile ground for afdairs and betrayals to take place. Doesnt matter if you both are friends or not.
Maybe its just a Mad Hatter thing, but I just never understood being "friends" with females anyway. I mean, if I was that interested, its because I wanted to date or commit to her. Otherwise, meh, whats the point; aquaintence at best. Never once have I found one that has / had enough to offer in common interest to be rellevent!
Maybe thats just my personal experience.
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See, I have never understood the opposite sex "friendship" thing? That just provides fertile ground for afdairs and betrayals to take place. Doesnt matter if you both are friends or not.
Maybe its just a Mad Hatter thing, but I just never understood being "friends" with females anyway. I mean, if I was that interested, its because I wanted to date or commit to her. Otherwise, meh, whats the point; aquaintence at best. Never once have I found one that has / had enough to offer in common interest to be rellevent!
Maybe thats just my personal experience.
I don't think it is just a mad hatter thing. When H and I met, I had a lot of male friends. He pointed out that men and women could never really just be friends without someone wanting more. When I reflected, he was right. Every single one of them had asked me out at one time or another. I said no and we had remained friends which I was ok with - probably a bit naive in hindsight.
This girl is/was part of a couple and they were both our friends - although they both knew H better because he worked with them. H never had any more of a friendship with her than he did with the boyfriend. She pursued my H right under her bf's nose and he never picked up on it. He has since seen her behaviour for what it was and has taken a massive hit to the ego (understandably). Blame is therefore going straight to H because I think he is now embarrassed at having missed it.
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I guess I am going to disagree here, I believe opposite sex can be friends without having sex or even wanting it.
I have women friends and have no intention or even desire to have sex with them.
And my feeling also is that if you are relying on sex to make you friends that might be a recipe for disaster in a relationship.
I would want to be friends with anyone that I was in a relationship with and believe that makes the relationship even stronger.
I hope one day my ex and I will be friends again,
but since that is not in my hands I will let go of it for now.
I am sure that is the most that I could ever hope for, tbh.
Anyways interesting discussion.
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I guess I am going to disagree here, I believe opposite sex can be friends without having sex or even wanting it.
I have women friends and have no intention or even desire to have sex with them.
And my feeling also is that if you are relying on sex to make you friends that might be a recipe for disaster in a relationship.
I would want to be friends with anyone that I was in a relationship with and believe that makes the relationship even stronger.
I guess I have just never experienced what you are talking about OP because I have never found a female with enough common interest to be in the freinds circle. I agree, your wife/mate should also be your friend. It's just for me, personally, I have never found that much in common with any woman I had no sexual interest in to be more than an aquaintence.
Maybe that sounds bad and a bit dismissive; just my personal experience.
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I guess I am going to disagree here, I believe opposite sex can be friends without having sex or even wanting it.
I have women friends and have no intention or even desire to have sex with them.
And my feeling also is that if you are relying on sex to make you friends that might be a recipe for disaster in a relationship.
I would want to be friends with anyone that I was in a relationship with and believe that makes the relationship even stronger.
I guess I have just never experienced what you are talking about OP because I have never found a female with enough common interest to be in the freinds circle. I agree, your wife/mate should also be your friend. It's just for me, personally, I have never found that much in common with any woman I had no sexual interest in to be more than an aquaintence.
Maybe that sounds bad and a bit dismissive; just my personal experience.
I really don't believe you can friends with any member of the opposite sex that you have some attraction to. That will always be going on in the background and anything you do for them is going to be influenced by that attraction. Many women are aware of this and will use this to their own advantage, but do not like to admit it. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T_lh5fR4DMA
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I agree 100% Braveheart.
Unless the guy is gay then you can truly be just friends.
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This is the old "When Harry met Sally" discussion, isn't it?
Well, if I remember the film well (and I've seen it numerous times) - Harry felt the same as many of the men on this thread. Men and Women couldn't just be friends. Sally disagreed. The two (eventually) became friends...and even later, fell in love. (it was a movie, after all).
I have a very good male friend that I have no interest or expectation that I would ever be in a romantic relationship with him.
I am NOT so sure that he feels the same way...and that concerns me...a bit.
Men and women (for the most part) see this differently. As Harry would say "the sex always got in the way."
It's a shame.....as I would bet that there are many members of the opposite sex that any of us could or would find to be a very good friend....maybe acquaintance is the better term?
L
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I think the key is a friend of the opposite sex we are attracted to.
I never had any real female friends growing up. Either I was attracted to them or they were to me.
I do have a few now but I have never met them in person, just by phone or online. One of the phone ones has been a good friend for years and we talk 3-4 times a week.
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This is the old "When Harry met Sally" discussion, isn't it?
Well, if I remember the film well (and I've seen it numerous times) - Harry felt the same as many of the men on this thread. Men and Women couldn't just be friends. Sally disagreed. The two (eventually) became friends...and even later, fell in love. (it was a movie, after all).
I have a very good male friend that I have no interest or expectation that I would ever be in a romantic relationship with him.
I am NOT so sure that he feels the same way...and that concerns me...a bit.
Men and women (for the most part) see this differently. As Harry would say "the sex always got in the way."
It's a shame.....as I would bet that there are many members of the opposite sex that any of us could or would find to be a very good friend....maybe acquaintance is the better term?
L
Speaking as a man, in the past I never got as much out of friendship with a woman as I gave. I've always done far more for them than they ever did for me, but then they really don't have a lot to offer compared to what another guy can.
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I have 2 female friends that are strictly plutonic. One is married (im friends with her husband as well) and one is single. Both are pretty but I'm not attracted to either sexually. They are Not as close to me as my closest male friends, but we are quite close. I see the potential difficulties that could arise with female friends... There is usually attraction from at least one side. In my case with these two women it has not been an issue at all.
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I think among younger women, especially good looking younger women, there is a tendency to friend zone boys that aren't making the grade of a sexual relationship, and a tendency to use those boys for emotional needs or day to day help. They tend to collect guys like this, and lead them on, just a little bit, while offering very little else in return. I had a lot of study buddies in college that definitely fit into this category.
From that experience alone, I'm not interested in "friends" with women -- female relationships have always been very one-sided in my experience, much like Brave Heart mentioned, and the amount of common interests are also rarely sufficient to drive an intellectual bond, as the mad hatter commented.
OP - your experience is decidedly not my experience -- however, maybe that will change based on the quality of women I meet in the future -- but I have ALWAYS been of the Harry Met Sally school once I got old enough to look back on my own personal experiences with some emotional distance. I will say that although I haven't met any women from HS in person, there are ladies here who are closer to me than any other female relationship outside my wife -- I'm closer with them than I am with my mother or my 3 sisters.
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There is actually a few men on this site i could see myself going for a beer with.
Elray i like the things you say and find myself nodding along with you. You too Braveheart and i liked to read lanzo's thread. I am a very feminine tomboy.
I dont believe in men woman friendships where any attraction exists. Trouble on one side for sure. You give more sometimes because you want more.
I wont ask you guys out for a beer, cos i'm clearly hotter than a baked potato straight out the oven, so it just wouldn't work ;D ;)
Sd
X
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I wont ask you guys out for a beer, cos i'm clearly hotter than a baked potato straight out the oven, so it just wouldn't work ;D ;)
ROFLMAO
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I wont ask you guys out for a beer, cos i'm clearly hotter than a baked potato straight out the oven, so it just wouldn't work ;D ;)
Sd
X
(http://stjent.pinnaclecart.com/images/products/10015.jpg)
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Ha ha Mad hatter, i come from the home of whiskey and believe me when i tell you not even a full bottle would make either you or i believe i had a rack like this lady.
;D ;D ;D
Sd
X
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OP - your experience is decidedly not my experience -- however, maybe that will change based on the quality of women I meet in the future -- but I have ALWAYS been of the Harry Met Sally school once I got old enough to look back on my own personal experiences with some emotional distance. I will say that although I haven't met any women from HS in person, there are ladies here who are closer to me than any other female relationship outside my wife -- I'm closer with them than I am with my mother or my 3 sisters.
It may also be an age thing, tbh, like with age comes wisdom......??
And hormonally the older men get the more our hormones make us think with the proper brain(should be using the one between the ears) not the other one.
I know men are more emotional the older they get too.
And women are the opposite, less emotional more testosterone(as they get older)
So that plays into this whole discussion too!
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Interesting conversation. I have never believed that "men and women" can be friends... at least really good friends. I have always felt that one of the two, probably wanted "more" then just being friends. That being said, I too have met some lovely men on this forum, that I really do think of as very special friends.
And hormonally the older men get the more our hormones make us think with the proper brain(should be using the one between the ears) not the other one.
I know men are more emotional the older they get too.
And women are the opposite, less emotional more testosterone(as they get older)
So that plays into this whole discussion too!
Yes, hormone changes due to age, probably do play a big part in this conversation. Interesting... very interesting!
Hugs Stayed
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I completely disagree... If both are entering and maintaining the friendship for what is and nothing more I don't see why it can't be. I can find my female friends attractive yet not want a sexual relationship with them. My 2 close female friends have been there for me every step of the way through this, just as much or more than many of my male friends. If both parties go into the friendship with the same expectations it shouldn't be a problem. I can however see how this might change now that I am single. Not with these women, but those I might meet in the future.
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I think thats the point DJi76, its the place you are in in yourself that makes all the difference to how you view things.
Eg my h worked beside ow fro 5 whole years, never was attracted or gave it a second thought, then wham MLC dissatisfaction and now she is very attractive. Its easy and safe and you can feel out the possibility of rejection with those you actually know plus you are half way there cos you already get along.
Nature designed us different and we have an intrinsic purpose regarding the opposite sex.
Just imo.
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I'm in the process of divorce and basically single now. My feelings/intentions towards my 2 female friends hasn't changed, nor has theirs towards me. Is it possible that most of us having spouses that cheated with someone that was a "friend" may be skeptical? I agree it's not the norm but don't think it's as difficult as many are making it out to be. Maybe I'm naive ...
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I would think that would have some "influence" on your attitude! hugs Stayed
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OP - your experience is decidedly not my experience -- however, maybe that will change based on the quality of women I meet in the future -- but I have ALWAYS been of the Harry Met Sally school once I got old enough to look back on my own personal experiences with some emotional distance. I will say that although I haven't met any women from HS in person, there are ladies here who are closer to me than any other female relationship outside my wife -- I'm closer with them than I am with my mother or my 3 sisters.
It may also be an age thing, tbh, like with age comes wisdom......??
And hormonally the older men get the more our hormones make us think with the proper brain(should be using the one between the ears) not the other one.
I know men are more emotional the older they get too.
And women are the opposite, less emotional more testosterone(as they get older)
So that plays into this whole discussion too!
I'm 60, still holds true for me .
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I think part of it has to do with how well each of them have been having their emotional needs met by someone else. I'm feeling pretty empty right now and I'd be hesitant to spend much time with the opposite sex.
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I think part of it has to do with how well each of them have been having their emotional needs met by someone else. I'm feeling pretty empty right now and I'd be hesitant to spend much time with the opposite sex.
Probably the most honest answer and some truth to it! No relationship is perfect and not every need gets met. It's impossible & quite selfish to ask someone to meet ALL of your needs. So if the individual cannot meet some of their own needs themselves and requires another (read: co-dependent), then they will seek it out or naturally respond as opportunity presents itself!
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I've read accounts about this "Needs not Met" business, where one could be meeting 80-90% of the other spouses needs and they still leave the reservation for greener grass. I thinks it's more unrealistic expectations at that level than any real lack of something in their lives.
Betty Freiden touched on this with her book, "Femine Mystique" about "The Problem That Has No Name":
" Each suburban housewife struggled with it alone. As she made the beds, shopped for groceries, matched slipcover material, ate peanut butter sandwiches with her children, chauffeured Cub Scouts and Brownies, lay beside her husband at night, she was afraid to ask even of herself the silent question — “Is this all?”stating women wondering while their husbands slumbered "Is this all"
Note, it's all about her, there is no mention of the trials a husband faced everyday to support her and the kids...
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Note, it's all about her, there is no mention of the trials a husband faced everyday to support her and the kids...
Weeell to be fair, she didn't call it the Masculine Mystique, did she? That's your thread! ;)
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Note, it's all about her, there is no mention of the trials a husband faced everyday to support her and the kids...
Weeell to be fair, she didn't call it the Masculine Mystique, did she? That's your thread! ;)
No, but if you take a look at most relationship material written for women it's very self centered, about her feelings and needs. In the men's literature the focus is far less on the self and how to be the best he can be for his wife , family and community.
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Note, it's all about her, there is no mention of the trials a husband faced everyday to support her and the kids...
Weeell to be fair, she didn't call it the Masculine Mystique, did she? That's your thread! ;)
No, but if you take a look at most relationship material written for women it's very self centered, about her feelings and needs. In the men's literature the focus is far less on the self and how to be the best he can be for his wife , family and community.
This line right here: "there is no mention of the trials a husband faced everyday to support her and the kids..."
This is the primary issue; it's about her and the kids!
Now look, I know how a mother is with her children, and I am not about to say she should choose her husband over them; I am not an ogre; but this is a large part of the issue and the main reason men feel neglected in the marriage! Once the kids come along, he is no longer relevant except to provide; in essence, he is the means that drives her primary goal; to have and raise HER children. And yes, that is the way she looks at it; they are HERS!
As soon as child #1 comes along, he is now #2. As soon as child #2 comes along, he is #3. and so on, and so on. He will never be #1 with her again; ever!
It's not so much that a woman should put priority over her kids; I would never say that. However, it also doesn't mean you completely dismiss your husband or treat him any less than what he was to begin with. Unfortunately, this is what happens, along with other undesirable events.
And then you have what always happens; he feels rejected and used as he as seen as simply an asset. Her attention and intimacy for him die off; he attempts to resolve the issue by whatever means but eventually just withdraws off to his Man Cave and the next thing you know there are two parallel paths and the marriage ends up just being a partnership of sorts.
No, actually, he starts to resent her but is now trapped in a loveless sexless marriage in which the only way out is to be divorced-raped by the biased court system!
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A slightly dissenting opinion here. My wife and I were young when we first married and it felt like she put her mother first and I was in second place. Then the children came along and I went to third place. Then the children grew up but my granddaughter came along and we raised her so my position didn't change. Then my MIL unfortunately passed away and I went to second place. And after my granddaughter went to live with her mother it was just my wife and I.
Note that this is just my perception, doesn't mean it was reality. Her's the dissenting opinion. I was ok with this. I know my MIL, children, and granddaughter were important to my wife, they were important to me as well. And I never felt neglected. And it was nice when it was finally just the two of us. We went to Disney World, just the two of us. We drove cross country from NY to the Northwestern coast, down to California, and back. We went out to dinner a lot and took a lot of short trips. We enjoyed life. And then MLC came along. And now you know who comes first, don't you? That's right, my wife. It's all about her now. Maybe it's her turn, who knows.
BTW, all of those years, she always came first for me, she was the center of my universe.
It would be interesting to hear others experiences.
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Now look, I know how a mother is with her children, and I am not about to say she should choose her husband over them; I am not an ogre; but this is a large part of the issue and the main reason men feel neglected in the marriage! Once the kids come along, he is no longer relevant except to provide; in essence, he is the means that drives her primary goal; to have and raise HER children. And yes, that is the way she looks at it; they are HERS!
As soon as child #1 comes along, he is now #2. As soon as child #2 comes along, he is #3. and so on, and so on. He will never be #1 with her again; ever!
It's not so much that a woman should put priority over her kids; I would never say that. However, it also doesn't mean you completely dismiss your husband or treat him any less than what he was to begin with. Unfortunately, this is what happens, along with other undesirable events.
And then you have what always happens; he feels rejected and used as he as seen as simply an asset. Her attention and intimacy for him die off; he attempts to resolve the issue by whatever means but eventually just withdraws off to his Man Cave and the next thing you know there are two parallel paths and the marriage ends up just being a partnership of sorts.
This is what my MLCer said to me about our R although ironically I did put him first. In his denial phase he bought the cars, the boats - tried to sail across the Atlantic three times. I was behind and funded these purchases. I have never been a stay at home mum - always worked and whilst my H built up his business was the sole breadwinner for 5 years.
It was when I read the articles about the validation that an OP gives to the MLCer that I realised A) this was true and B) this was his problem. I then read love languages and realised that we were poles apart in our levels of intimate communications.
Would this have made any difference if I had read love languages and kept him solely as #1?
Probably not as he is in MLC and believes that his whole life had been a lie. He claimed that he put me first at all times but so often I felt neglected in favour of the children/trips abroad/business. But to me that was what being a parent/wife was. We Galed together such a lot too!
I didn't realise that most people put their Rs on pause when children arrive and think that they can pick up where they left off once the children are grown.
What should be #1? Not the spouse or the children or the wider family but the self. Then appropriate sharing of self to the spouse and children is the way forward.
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I think it just boils down to unrealistic expectations and maturity. I was fully aware that the kids would come first for both of us when they were younger and never resented that fact. One can't carry on like newlyweds when there's babies to be fed and diapers to change, even if the husband pitches in big time.
I think the problem starts with some women being of the "Now" and men being of the "Future". As a man I simply looked at it as "This too will pass", all the work having kids entailed was temporary and as they grew older more time would free up for us. I could see a future, all my X could see was how she felt right now.
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I think it just boils down to unrealistic expectations and maturity. I was fully aware that the kids would come first for both of us when they were younger and never resented that fact. One can't carry on like newlyweds when there's babies to be fed and diapers to change, even if the husband pitches in big time.
I think the problem starts with some women being of the "Now" and men being of the "Future". As a man I simply looked at it as "This too will pass", all the work having kids entailed was temporary and as they grew older more time would free up for us. I could see a future, all my X could see was how she felt right now.
My H never understood this. He was the odd man who only thought of "Now" and never saw or planned for or could wait for "Future". He didn't want to wait.
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I don't think it really matters when this crisis hits. I always put my H first but when he hit the fog he must have mixed me up with some other woman who never loved him. ::)
I guess I feel you have to be first to each other, which doesn't mean ignoring your kids. Obviously they take time and energy but you can't neglect your spouse.
I knew all this, learned it from my wonderful parents (we knew who came first with them) but it didn't make a lick of difference.
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I think when a lot people get married, they don't seem to get the memo, there is no longer a "Me" or "You", it's now "Us"... The whole damn service is full of "Yoked, Joined and Cleave"
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Mad Hatter said
As soon as child #1 comes along, he is now #2. As soon as child #2 comes along, he is #3. and so on, and so on. He will never be #1 with her again; ever!
In our marriage it was quite to the contrary! I put off having kids until we had been married for eight years, we were both 30 by then, because I was terrified of becoming number two, three or four...
I remember long talks we had back then in which I expressed this fear and he assured me that it would not be so.
Like MBIB, I was so looking forward to this period in our lives when we would be free of parenting responsibilities and little easier financially to be able to travel and spend time together as a couple without the kids hanging on.
Interestingly, my h. clings to the kids and is in constant contact with them, admittedly much more as a 'mate' and 'rich' uncle than a father, but then that could be just my perception because the kids don't complain. On the other hand he has not been in direct contact with me for over two months now. He even sends the OW to bring the kids home!
He has told me that I stopped him from having a close relationship with his children (he also told them the same thing) and that he has a much better relationship with them now than before.
However, he doesn't have them live with him and he limits his spending with them to pocket money/mobile phone and pays our electricity and water bills. I have to pay/do all the rest - full health insurance for myself and kids, food, house taxes,cabletv and internet, house maintenance (the house is falling to bits), pool chemicals and upkeep, maid (because I have to work FT), laundry, half of d20's rent at student apt, birthdays (separate presents and festivities). I am the parent that is here and faces the everyday wear and tear.
So, he has it all, right? - a new family (OW has two younger kids), his adoring kids whenever he wants and less expenses...
I guess my case is a little different than most. ???
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Guy question
Given all of the following hold true for you (and I believe some with religious views would be excluded)
(1). Our sex life died on around BD
(2). we are emotionally healing and not necessarily ready to take
On a new relationship
(3) Standing means emotionally holding out for our spouse putting a new r at high risk of getting hurt
(4) Our partners broke the vows of marriage
(5). We are men not monks
Why not purchase an escort?
It's widely available, and not prohibitively expensive.
Has anyone put a good deal of thought into this? It seems morally defensible, may help extend a man's stand, and much better emotional solution than getting entangled with dating. Yet it seems we frequently support and understand LBSers dating but strongly frown on this option. Is that really consistent?
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I suppose the advantage would be no one gets hurt while fulfilling a base need. But still not fulfilling.
What does it for me is knowing I'm it for her. The intimacy of a kiss, looking into her eyes and seeing that sparkly love glow, the gentleness of a loving caress, of pressing closer and closer to one another until we're practically one. Seeing her turned on turns me on. I want the real thing.
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Gotta agree w MeNow on the escort issue. No gamesmanship in handing over cash for the goods. I will agree it's probabaly a better bang for the buck though!! Haha sorry, couldn't resist. In all seriousness I enjoy gettin to know a woman and what turns her on. Can't force (or pay for) real desire.
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I'm with MeNow 100%.
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Just so I'm clear-- it's the sport of pursuit and the thrill of the chase that precludes this?
Because I'm fairly certain there are available low quality women who require very little gamesmanship. And I might add a much higher chance of disease vs protected sex with regularly tested pro.
And if we are talking about high quality women then I return to the point about hurting others along the way. Which seems rather unsportsmanlike like to me.
Have any of you spent a night at a strip club? And feel that's ok? Because that's wetting the base appetite need..requires no skill.. And As the cost of a few lap dances cover and drinks is about the cost of an escort and you aren't a frustrated chump at the end of the night I would argue the escort is a bargain transaction compared to a strip club.
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So what you're saying, Elray, is that hiring a prostitute will improve my ability to stand which for me, like many on here, means eventually reconciling with my spouse. Are you sure you're not going through an MLC yourself? This definitely sounds like MLC "logic". :P :P :P
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Wow. Just......wow.
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I sound crazy without your help putting words in my mouth.
I'm saying a new R with a new woman retards your emotional recovery, and hurts your stand, and could get another person hurt.
I'm also saying as a gender men have a harder time giving up sex for a long period of time.
Do you agree? ( you didn't answer the strip club point)
Given all that, why does everyone discard this option as an indecent proposal?
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I'm sorry, it sounds like you're actually serious about this. I thought it was some kind of a weird joke.
Given all that, why does everyone discard this option as an indecent proposal?
I don't know how everybody feels but my belief is that it's illegal, immoral, and reprehensible. And it is an indecent proposal.
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I have stayed away from this thread until now, but this needs a response--though you guys are doing a great job responding as well,
...We are men not monks
Why not purchase an escort?
It's widely available, and not prohibitively expensive.
Did you really just suggest purchasing another human being--and then refer to said human as it's?
Um... I know some would rather I may not be so crass....but come on, I'm sure you know how to take the matter into your own hands.
It seems morally defensible
How is human trafficking morally defensible? The women (and men) in such situations are not necessarily there by choice and even those that are may not be in escorting because they like the job, rather they may be feeding a drug habit or are in some other situation where though they are technically choosing the life, they don't see an alternative and may still be feeling forced. You can call them escorts, but call it what it is: prostitution and it objectifies the prostitute--regardless of their gender.
Because I'm fairly certain there are available low quality women who require very little gamesmanship. And I might add a much higher chance of disease vs protected sex with regularly tested pro.
And if we are talking about high quality women then I return to the point about hurting others along the way. Which seems rather unsportsmanlike like to me.
Woman are not sperm receptacles and all women are high quality as are all men. There are not any who are worth more or less than others. If you objectify and disrespect one person or one type of person, it makes it easier to objectify and disrespect another. It's all unsporting conduct.
Part of Standing for your marriage--part that is about Standing for you--is about being married even while your spouse is trying to not be married and that means keeping your vows. It doesn't matter who left and who had extramarital sex first, sex with someone other than your spouse is adultery--even if it is not infidelity or cheating--so at least for the Standers who are religious in one of the Judeo-Christian faiths, any extramarital sex is out.
Hey, you can Stand however you choose, but this website is about marital preservation, not supporting or even condoning extramarital sex and especially not supporting or condoning sex trafficking.
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Once again.....wow.
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To clarify a few things:
First, On the quote about low value women, I feel equally about men. There are men and women who I would not want a relationship with. Didn't feel it was needed at the time I made that reference to clarify its not a gender thing.
Secondly I explicitly excluded religious views at the top. In my view sin is sin (adultery or prostitution) and does corrosive damage to the sinner but sin is morally worse when it hurts others.
Third, I agree with RCR that the optimal way to stand involves no third parties but several responders to this thread of conversation are, in their personal threads discussing loneliness and seeking romantic companionship.
My motivations behind this topic was to examine that point in a stand where youbstartbgoing wobbly. It is an intellectual interest. I'm not personally at that point right now but I have come close to dating several times.
In her response, RCR clearly indicating a heirarchy, consistent with everyone else. Another consenting woman is bad but paying for sex is worse. It's that hierarchy I am intrigued by.
Someone said that in a reconciliation point a pro would be harder to explain than an emotional entanglement--a true affair. I strongly disagree with the realities of that statement. In fact I would argue that most would explain it away by equating it- it was just sex--I was lonely.
Ultimately RCR its your site and if a topic is verboten we can drop it.
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Perhaps if u have reached the point where u are considering an escort it's time to evaluate your stand. I'm not judging but maybe it's time to move on in a more healthy manner. Or maybe u tell your wife what your considering? As lbs we would have all appreciated a heads up from our spouses before they got to the point having their affair. My guess is she would do one of three things:
1. Be shocked enough to actually start working on things.
2. Give you the "all clear" because she doesn't care.
3. Tell u it's a deal breaker but do nothing to work on the marriage.
You could probably draw some pretty good insight into her thinking and motivation for staying married based on her reaction. I'm not suggesting u tell her expecting a specific reaction. I also don't see how stepping outside the marriage is constructive to saving it.
Finally, my initial "thrill of the chase" comment was coming from the perspective of someone who has initiated a divorce. I will stand until the end of the marriage but perhaps I was looking ahead given my situation rather than applying your question to someone still standing with no end in sight.
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Hey dj,
Believe it or not the topic did come up but not in the way you think.. It came up within the context of her proposing we have some level of reconciliation without sex. I said sex was an essential element of a healthy relationship.
My wife recommended option 2.
I don't believe she wouldn't care but that was her words. And she's had that response in at least two separate conversations months apart.
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Wait, your wife proposed some level of reconciliation without sex and you turned that down? Reconciliation in my eyes should start out with no sex. I wouldn't have my H come knocking back at my door and have sex with him. I would feel like he came back just for that and my trust of him would not be anywhere near having sex with him. Reconciliation is a long process where sex is far far away in the future. It is an essential element of a relationship and should not be one of the first things added back into reconciliation. The MLC may not be anywhere near ready to move in that direction nor the LBS. This needs to be a work in progress.
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UL -- my W is a wallower. Never left, we lived separately in the house for six months. November 2013 she said she was done with OM after a 12 month ea/pa. She seems to have cut contact although they work together. She is unable to talk about her process or her feelings. she refuses IC or MC. We've been working on an R since then with no sex, as in we coparent and cohabitate without much monsterrng. She remains noncommittal about the R. I am slowly seeing improvement but concerned she me run back into replay at any point as nothing seems internally resolved.
But there was zero sex from Nov 2013 to Jan 2015. I first raised the topic as an essential relationship component in August of 2014. The response was to go get those needs met elsewhere. She specifically recommended an Asian massage of ill repute. That was again the response this February on Valentine's weekend. If you're suggesting a lack of patience on my part, you can put that concern to rest.
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Wait, your wife proposed some level of reconciliation without sex and you turned that down? Reconciliation in my eyes should start out with no sex. I wouldn't have my H come knocking back at my door and have sex with him. I would feel like he came back just for that and my trust of him would not be anywhere near having sex with him. Reconciliation is a long process where sex is far far away in the future. It is an essential element of a relationship and should not be one of the first things added back into reconciliation. The MLC may not be anywhere near ready to move in that direction nor the LBS. This needs to be a work in progress.
Well said, UL, I agree completely.
She specifically recommended an Asian massage of ill repute. That was again the response this February on Valentine's weekend.
This definitely sounds like MLC "logic". :P :P :P
So what you're saying is, I was right, this is MLC logic if it was suggested by your wife. And even though it was suggested by her, if you follow through with it I doubt it will have a positive effect on your relationship.
My wife gave the the "You're a good man, you shouldn't wait for me" speech. I have her permission to move on. The divorce she initiated may even be her way to make it easier for me to move on. But how does my moving on make it easier for us to reconcile. All it would do, in my opinion, is confirm her belief that I don't really love her, something that I suspect she already hears regularly from her OM. And wouldn't he love to be able to use my moving on or even visiting an escort as proof that he was right. Well I'm not going to give it to him. >:(
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Strange, we are supposed to life as if they aren't coming back but I hear lots of decisions being made with consideration as to how the MLCer will take it. Im speaking more in general than the escort issues specifically. I don't think using an escort fits in the spirit of standing, but making decisions worrying about how the MLCer will react doesn't fit standing either.
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IMHO. I feel that GALing is a necessary and important process for the females on this site. I am positive that they have put their lives on hold to raise a family and hold their marriage together..
I do feel the men on this site would do well to GAP............... Grow A Pair.
Who cares what our MLCer thinks of us? They are having sex with anybody they want and rubbing your nose in it. Is this what they have come to expect from you?
If you evolve into a self assure male? Maybe that is what she is hoping for. It would certainly be a change from what I've read from a lot of you.
You write in an effort to gain support from the females on this forum.
Find out who you are as a man.
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"Mlc logic"? Yes and no, but mostly no. It is a long story for another day. Based on the short version I told I can see why you would think that.
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You write in an effort to gain support from the females on this forum.
Find out who you are as a man.
Thank you for writing this! I do believe that and it's interest to see the two sides of this in this forum. I'm not judging it's just enlightening. Kind of like what I seen from my MLC H as he's going through the tunnel and yet, I'm now wondering if he's been like this all along. This forum is an interesting read for sure.
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I guess I don't understand a lot of things. Does living as though they're not coming back mean that it's ok for me to violate my marriage vows, because my wife violated hers? Does it mean it's ok for me to forget about my moral beliefs? Does it mean it's ok for me to have no empathy for others? When I write what I honestly believe does that mean I'm pandering to the females on this site? When I write something that contradicts what you believe does that mean I am not a self-assured man and that I need to GAP?
Does anybody on here understand what a mid life crisis is? What your spouse is going through? Do you think it's ok for you to go out and have sex with anybody you want and rub your spouses nose in it because your spouse is doing it while they are living through a severe crisis? If your spouse jumped off a bridge would you jump off a bridge too?
Do you really think your spouse is doing what she is doing because you needed to evolve into a self assured male and once she sees that happen she will come running back to you? Do you really believe that what your spouse is doing is about you and your marriage rather than being about your spouse and her MLC issues?
I think it's time for some of the men on here to get GSE ..... Get Some Empathy. Get over your ego and realize that your spouse is going through a crisis. If you think what your spouse is doing is happening because she dislikes you and she wants to hurt you by rubbing your nose in it, that she really wasn't happy with you or your marriage, then you're in the wrong place. You may as well get a divorce and move on because your spouse isn't really in a crisis, your spouse is just done with you.
I'm done now, I need to GAP.
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Rugged, just curious, what in people's writing do u see as "making an effort to gain support from the females"? Do u mean in the sense that some are looking for the women to tell them what a great guy they are? Or are u referring to something else?? Btw, I agree on the idea of becoming a more self assured male. Really though, who cares if that's what "she" wants. Do it for yourself and realize u don't need anyone else to be a complete person. If the person (woman) we trusted more than anyone in the world has betrayed you, why is that ok? It took me 7 months to realize the level of betrayal and what it really meant. It took me time to adjust to my new reality. Now I embrace my life without w and am excited to create my future. my w can be mired in her personal hell for as long as she wants to be. It's up to each of us (and the MLCer) how long to be stuck in the cycle of misery. It's over as soon as your ready for it to be over.
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Is this convo still about the merits of getting a prostitute? If your desire is reconciliation, then no, not a good idea.
If not, I still want the real thing. Best to finish it with your spouse first.
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There's a lot of twisted logic going on here, lets set this straight, there is a big difference between a drug addled street hooker and a high end escort. Elray is not talking about a hooker. In regards to the morality of it, well if one's wife has committed adultery and you're divorced, you are a free agent.
The idea you should remain pure for years in the hope she's coming back, while she is having sex with multiple someone else's is rediculous, and living in denial of reality.
Which brings me to the next point, Sex is a very important part of a healthy man's life, he needs it to remain sane. Women have no idea in this department what a man deals with and try and shame men into believing they are unreasonable for expecting regular sex in a realtionship. The only women that have any idea what a man goes through are female bodybuilders who have taken male steriods. They've found that even taken at a tenth of the level the average man has in his body, that their sex drive is uncontrollable and had to masterbate several times a day just to function.
In regards to worrying what a MLC'er thinks about what you do with your life after they've left? The MLC'er has no right to any consideration from you and you should not give a damn what they think. Tracking their every movement, kissing their ass and looking for hints of an R is a waste of your life. If you build a new life, with or without someone else, you begin to truly see that you deserve more than they will ever be capable of giving you. You'll probably find as I have that you become too strong to ever fall into the trap again of being the rug they can sweep their toxic crap under again. They have to prove their worthiness, not you.
In terms of the whole standing issue I have some problems with the religious rationalizations some fall back on to remain standing when all other reasons are no longer valid.
Number 1, even biblically if your wife has committed adultery your marriage is over anyway, The vows have been broken, you have grounds for divorce.
Number 2, once divorced they are no longer your wife.
Number 3. If divorced and she's been cohabiting with the OM for a period of time ( depends on state or province) she's technically in a common law marriage. Which means one would be lusting after someone else's wife if still standing at that point.
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Brain I agree with your post. I would add its up to each of us to decide when that line is crossed and when to hold them accountable for their decisions. I understand my w is in crisis but she has also cheated and tried to hide it... So she knows it is WRONG. To say someone in mlc has no control and should not be accountable is enabling imo. Look, many of them have spending issues but they don't rob banks and convenient stores. Why? Because they know it is wrong AND there are repercussions. I have empathy for what my w is going through but I also love myself enough to say her actions are not ok. I could flip the script and say to all the standers to stop being afraid of moving on alone. That's the opposite to the ego argument in your post. My point is it's a balancing act that each of us must manage according to our own beliefs. The great thing at HS, at least what I've found great, is the support. Stand or divorce, we are all supportive in a way that most others who have not been in our shoes can not offer. I chose to move on not only because of what my w is chosing to do now, but also because the emotional distance I have now allowed me to see things more clearly. My w has always had serious issues that I didn't realize because she was all that I knew. I loved her more than I loved myself so and chose to overlook her issues. Nothing to do with my ego.
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DJ, I understand and respect your position. You seem to have good reasons for ending your stand. I don't know what I would do if I were in your situation or anyone else's. I don't even know what I will eventually do in my situation. All I know is what I am doing right now. But, based on some of the comments I have read, not all of them but some, I believe I understand why there are so few stories of reconciliations with female mlcers and why I have heard of several female mlcers who wanted to come back but the lbs wasn't interested. I'm not saying it's good or bad, but I came to this site because I want to stand for my marriage and I'm not really interested in learning how to get to the point where I won't want to reconcile with my wife if she ever reaches that point.
With regards to the sex thing, one of the first things I did after BD was to check to see if was too late for me to become a Catholic priest, so maybe I believe I'm capable of showing more restraint in that area than a typical male. Or maybe I'm just low on testosterone. Oh, and please don't start telling stories about all of the Catholic priest scandals because there are far more priests that serve faithfully without ever being involved in any kind of scandal.
Now, if you'll excuse me, I think I'll go find some threads where I can pander to the female lbsers. It's a whole lot more fun. :D
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I didn't have elray pegged as the drug addled hooker type when I made my statement.
I agree with some of BH's post such as the part about becoming strong and your own person. Valuing yourself.
I don't like getting into religious "arguments" as they are futile. However, there is a reason some why some Christians choose to remain standing. Besides loving their spouse, they choose to serve God in their personal way AND according to it's teachings. These are their own personal convictions and beliefs. And they are entitled to them.
To say they are wrong for them is nothing more than a personal opinion, period. One would have to read the Bible themselves to understand it.
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I try to leave the man cave to the men, but like to read it because it helps me figure out what makes you men tick. I had to reply to Braveheart on a couple of points.
Brave I believe sex is a VERY important part of a healthy woman's life too. A lot of us ladies are at our "sexual peak" so to speak, and are extremely "frustrated". I cannot relate to how a man feels without it, but as RCR says "you can take things in your own hands."
Now so can woman, but I believe that many women of our age (40's-50's) have been stifled a bit sexually (about "self service"). I think you have to get to a certain maturity/confidence level in yourself to learn to take care of your own needs (as a woman). For men it has always been an acceptable means of taking care of business.
Brave I also agree with your Number 1- biblically when your spouse has cheated, you are released from your vows. I have counseled with my pastor from nearly day 1. H ended our vows, I did not. I def admire standing for your vows, but if you decide to move on.....perfectly acceptable in the eyes of God.
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The release from your vows thing is quite interesting. I was raised Catholic and I was a good Catholic. I was even an alter boy for several years. But when I married, I married a non-Catholic and was married in a Methodist church. Seven years later, the day before our anniversary, we renewed our vows by getting married in a Catholic church (technically a Convalidation ceremony). We now attend a Wesleyan church as the Wesleyan church in our town has a terrific children's program and the Catholic church isn't very active except on Sunday morning.
So now, my Pastor has told me I could divorce and remarry and it would be ok but in the eyes of the Catholic church I am married forever. Surprisingly, I take some comfort in knowing that my wife will always be my wife in the eyes of the Catholic church no matter what happens.
Sorry if this is too much religion.
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To clarify a few things:
First, On the quote about low value women, I feel equally about men. There are men and women who I would not want a relationship with. Didn't feel it was needed at the time I made that reference to clarify its not a gender thing.
I get that you did not mean it as a gender thing—you just happened to be speaking of women rather than either gender. For me it's one of those Unconditionals things—Grace, Agape, Forgiveness. I don't like everyone and don't want a relationship with everyone. Then there are people that I don't dislike, but I don't have or want a relationship with them because they just aren't my type. But I do believe that everyone is worthy of the Unconditionals. I believe everyone is valuable. IT's a Jesus loves everyone sort of thing, but I imagine even Jesus doesn't like everyone.
I did not and still do not like the alienator, but I also think she is worthy of love and prayers and that she was (and probably still is) lost and not mentally well.
My motivations behind this topic was to examine that point in a stand where you start going wobbly. It is an intellectual interest. I'm not personally at that point right now but I have come close to dating several times.
... Ultimately RCR its your site and if a topic is verboten we can drop it.
I did not feel your post needed censoring (YUCK) and I understand the intellectual aspect of the discussion.
Some people think it was vile and should not be here, that's not me. What I find vile is direct insults about men or women--such as labeling all women b!tches or all men j@acka$$es. You asked a question and I felt it needed a response--no problems though.
Another consenting woman is bad but paying for sex is worse. It's that hierarchy I am intrigued by.
I was thinking about this last night after posting. Paid sex is not uncommon and never has been and it has been acceptable in various cultures throughout history—in some as part of a lower class and even shameful, yet accepted part of society which is, I think, what it was in the US (think Madame's rather than pimps), but with the sex trafficking/sex slave trade and the drugged out desperate street walkers it is not as accepted as it may have once been.
Do I personally have a problem with paying for sex--or professional sex servers?
No, not in certain contexts.
Consider the traditional Geisha or sacred prostitute.
I also am not so prudish about the high-class escort who controls her own life and is choosing that life—though even in those situations many are acting from former incest or other abusive situations and perhaps are not really in control as they or others may think.
I am not against a couple who agree to an open marriage. I admit to being skeptical as to whether such a situation will work if they are in a society that is not accepting and so it may not really be what is best if the couple considers their relationship a 'til death do us part one.
Most women and maybe most men—though I imagine not as high a percentage as most women—enter marriages with an assumption and intention of monogamy—to the point that it is either a spoken or unspoken vow. I have a problem with paying for external sex in such situations and my default assumption or generalization of a Stander is that they fit this context. I am also against prostitution when the workers are forced either because of their situations—though they may technically be choosing to sell their services—or because they are being forced by another—sex slaves.
Perhaps there are ways to tell, but I imagine the smart pimps/traffickers can make their businesses seem like those that are... more reputable or safe.
I have coached people who tried swinging, who have had an affair themselves and people who are Standing and dating or planning to date with no issues for them having dating as part of their Stand—it is more often a male Stander than a female Stander who has no issues with dating while Standing. But I have not judged their choices. I've heard it quite a bit from men that they think dating—with the option of sexual relationships—will help rather than hinder their Stand.
As a woman I admit to chuckling at this because it is so far from my own view and I think it's one of those gender gap things. I also chuckle because I think this will be a problem for some—maybe many—of the MLCers who would want to return someday. It would and wouldn't be for me. What I mean is that I would probably consider it a betrayal just as (had I been a cheating MLCer) I had been a betrayer and thus I would be in sort of in the position I was as the betrayed where I needed to work through being betrayed and forgiving...even while working through being the betrayer. Would that make me a hypocrite or is it one of those two wrongs don't make a right sort of situations?
I understand that this is not a discussion about revenge affairs which I imagine more of you would be against than simply dating or friends with benefits because you have needs or because you are moving on with the option of reconciliation still available.
Someone said that in a reconciliation point a pro would be harder to explain than an emotional entanglement--a true affair. I strongly disagree with the realities of that statement. In fact I would argue that most would explain it away by equating it- it was just sex--I was lonely.
I agree as well. For me it does not matter the context. Though in general women are concerned about emotional ties—so affairs that are emotional without sex can be just as threatening and I understand that. I think that the consent versus paying issue may also be about whether sex is considered sacred and to me it is sacred—something we share and reserve for each other only and though I understand the needs issue—I'm the higher sex-drive partner, so I do; sex is still sacred enough for me that I will abstain (and did) if necessary. To me it is just not a casual or friends with benefits sort of thing and I have no doubt that is due to my religious upbringing. I wasn't raised strict—my mother is a lot more open with sex than I am and I have no issue with that, she can have friends with benefits (she might not see it that way) and I think it can be good for her. My dad is also more open, but he lacks boundaries in my view and his idea of what constitutes fidelity and infidelity differs from mine—I often think that he just doesn't get it.
There's a lot of twisted logic going on here, lets set this straight, there is a big difference between a drug addled street hooker and a high end escort.
Not necessarily. The label escort is becoming more widespread—at least in some places.
In regards to worrying what a MLCer thinks about what you do with your life after they've left? The MLCer has no right to any consideration from you and you should not give a damn what they think. Tracking their every movement, kissing their ass and looking for hints of an R is a waste of your life. If you build a new life, with or without someone else, you begin to truly see that you deserve more than they will ever be capable of giving you.
EVER? My reconciled marriage is great, thank you very much. Point: Chuck is capable now.
I did not kiss his a$$ or track his every move, but I did care about what he thought. That does not mean I let that control my actions, it means I was empathetic and caring about my husband even while he was not being the same toward me. That is what Standing is about.
They have to prove their worthiness, not you.
YEAH—I agree. Being worthy of agape is not the same as being worthy of romantic love (Eros) from me. Perhaps all souls are worthy of Eros from an individual—in general, but not all people are safe for a partner; the idea is to become safe or worthy.
Number 1, even biblically if your wife has committed adultery your marriage is over anyway, The vows have been broken, you have grounds for divorce.
Number 2, once divorced they are no longer your wife.
Here is how I see the Biblical perspective.
God allows divorce, but that does not mean re-marriage to someone other than the original spouse (if they are living) is allowed.
This is how I interpret it Biblically, this does not mean that I would follow it; I'm not a fundamentalist and I don't follow a strict interpretation, but in this case it seems to me to be how it was meant.
I was only 32.5 at Bomb Drop, so I think I would have eventually moved on to at least considering and seeking other relationships had my situation gotten to the point. But it did not and so it is not something I explored.
Number 3. If divorced and she's been cohabiting with the OM for a period of time ( depends on state or province) she's technically in a common law marriage. Which means one would be lusting after someone else's wife if still standing at that point.
Not everyone agrees with common-law marriage and the law differs on it in different places as well. Does the law treat such marriages the same during (ex. at tax time) and of the relationship ends? Do common law spouses need a legal divorce? Maybe in some places the law equates common law and legal-contractual marriage, but I doubt it is this way everywhere.
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With Common Law marriage it depends on wear you live, but in many states and provinces you are considered married if you have been cohabiting for an extended period of time and subject to division of property and child custody/support issues should you split up.
Where I live if you cohabit for 3 years, or have a child and a relationship of some permanence you're considered married in the eyes of the government. In some areas you only have to cohabit for one year for it to legally kick in. So the reality is that if your X Wife is living with the OM long enough, as far as the government is concerned she is his spouse.
My comment about the MLC'er not being likely to ever meet your needs is a realistic viewpoint. In terms of the MLC'er, many of them appear to do very little work on themselves and place blame on everyone else, their personal growth all in the negative aspects. On the other hand, in order to survive the spouse who has been left behind often pulls out all stops to improve their lives, spiritually, mentally and physically. The new person the left behind spouse becomes now has even less in common with the MLC'er than ever before.
From the new and improved LBS's standpoint there is not much to gain having an R with your MLC'er when much of what you've done to change your life is not compatible with their's past or present. I have many positive activities in my life now I know my X has no interest in and would never share with me. She would either expect me to give them up or attempt to make me feel guilty for continuing to do them if there was a R. When you get to that point, and have done all that work to rebuild your live, having an R with your the MLC'er does not seem like such a good deal.
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My comment about the MLC'er not being likely to ever meet your needs is a realistic viewpoint. In terms of the MLC'er, many of them appear to do very little work on themselves and place blame on everyone else, their personal growth all in the negative aspects.
You know, I might've agreed fully with this statement until a few months ago. Then my H unexpectedly managed to pull his head out of his ass (was none of my doing, all his; proctocranial extraction ain't my specialty). So i guess some do the work, eventually. Not that we should hold our breaths waiting...
One thing I just don't get...
Another consenting woman is bad but paying for sex is worse. It's that hierarchy I am intrigued by.
Um, really? Consenting partner no different from hooker? Nobody just lightly trades away their dignity for cash. Taking advantage of someone else's unspoken desperation has got to feel different from emotional consent. Otherwise we're all dead inside. Gender has no bearing on this.
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Quote from: elray on February 22, 2015, 04:33:17 AM
Another consenting woman is bad but paying for sex is worse. It's that hierarchy I am intrigued by.
Um, really? Consenting partner no different from hooker? Nobody just lightly trades away their dignity for cash. Taking advantage of someone else's unspoken desperation has got to feel different from emotional consent. Otherwise we're all dead inside. Gender has no bearing on this.
A couple of things I can repeat that might clarify...but I sense a very strong moral imperative that there's victimization occurring -- that's not always the case -- but I'm not going to try to tackle that.
Consider first from a judeo-christian approach, all sin is sin -- whether there's an exchange of cash or simply a man buying dinner, sex outside of marriage is sin -- so its hard to hang a religious differentiator on it.
So let's talk about the rebound relationship -- the LBSer is hurt. Hurt people hurt people. There's a very high likely hood that he/she will hurt their first partner emotionally. It is also highly likely they are using that person emotionally, and preventing themself from growing.
If that rebound relationship does workout and the MLCer finally extracts their head from their ass, ad the LBSer decides to run back -- more hurt. As a matter of fact, I've read several threads here on HS where the LBSer has been open in the relationship explaining that should that happen -- they will take the MLCer back. That's emotionally damaging -- effectively telling your partner they're a plan B. How is that healthy? How is that not victimization?
My general point is that a new relationship is very problematic for an LBSer unless or until they are completely emotionally healed. They are highly likely to emotionally trainwreck themselves and the person they are with. If you recognize that's true, then you agree there's an immoral aspect, a victimization aspect, a vampirism intrinsic to the process.
More or less immoral than hiringa pro? Not obvious to me, especially for men. I believe a lot of male LBSers are codependent, and as such NEED to be alone. The DON"T NEED to rush into another codependent relationship. But they have a biological imperative as well. We are less emotionally aware and more likely to jump early. More likely to do damage.
That basically recaps what I said previously, if you still don't get it, there maybe a fundamental gap I can't cross.
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I personally, could not imagine reconciling without sex being a part of it.
It's a really big part of a marriage, in my opinion. It's the closest you can be to someone.
I also feel it would be unfair to expect a your man (or woman) to go years without it if you reconcile. Cruel, even. I would expect he/she would have to eventually have to find someone else to fill his/her needs.
Nope, sex is too important to a couples well being and happiness. I'm not saying other things aren't just as important, like respect and communication, but a sexless relationship IN MY OPINION is not a solid relationship.
Hope I don't get attacked for saying this. 8)
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elray- So let's talk about the rebound relationship -- the LBSer is hurt. Hurt people hurt people. There's a very high likely hood that he/she will hurt their first partner emotionally. It is also highly likely they are using that person emotionally, and preventing themself from growing.
I agree 1000%
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elray,
Somehow I think W would find a way to blame you for doing it anyway, either now or later. That's all I'm saying. Whether you should care about that at this point is up to the LBSer.
Thunder,
A sexless R is roommates. Why even live together for that?
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New thread
http://mlcforum.theherosspouse.com/index.php?topic=6195.0