Midlife Crisis: Support for Left Behind Spouses
Archives => Archived Topics => Topic started by: OldPilot on February 23, 2015, 05:32:41 AM
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Time to start another.
http://mlcforum.theherosspouse.com/index.php?topic=6085.0
http://mlcforum.theherosspouse.com/index.php?topic=6104.0
http://mlcforum.theherosspouse.com/index.php?topic=6145.0
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8)
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Interesting discussion on last thread; I'll just say this:
1) Standing - Stand if you want; it's your choice. Some can do it; some can't. Some can go the long haul; some can't. Only you know your limits; act accordingly.
2) Hookers / Escorts - to each their own. Personally I wouldn't pay for it, considering what is "freely" available if you are willing to hit the club / dating scene. Sexual promiscuity is at an all time high in this day and age. Men & women of all age groups are more openly engaging in casual sex than ever before. Protect yourself.
3) For the phrase "Act as if they are never going to return", seems to be a bit of mantra here as I have seen this regurgitated so many times. I guess this is open for interpretation, but to me, this means you move on with your life without worrying about a return and when you are ready, you are open to a new relationship if that is your choice.
I personally don't think "Act as if they are never going to return" and Standing go together. One presumes they are not coming back, the other is waiting in hope that they do!
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I personally don't think "Act as if they are never going to return" and Standing go together. One presumes they are not coming back, the other is waiting in hope that they do!
Others may differ, but I feel that if you "fake it until you make it" by following the "Act as if they are never going to return" mantra, you eventually are put in a position of genuine abundance instead of lack. One then is in the best position to determine if they want to R or not. It becomes a matter of you don't need them in your life anymore, but are willing to consider an R if they've done the work on their end.
Personally, if the roles were reversed and I had come out of the other side of the MLC tunnel and in genuine remorse, I don't think I could live with what I'd put my kids, spouse and family through. In other forums I have read where men have attempted to R with their wives after lengthy separations. Many even one to five years in the R find they often regret their decision, feeling they've done so much selfwork and yet their wives, while somewhat remorseful have not and prefer to rugsweep the whole thing.
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I personally don't think "Act as if they are never going to return" and Standing go together. One presumes they are not coming back, the other is waiting in hope that they do!
It becomes a matter of you don't need them in your life anymore, but are willing to consider an R if they've done the work on their end.
This is how I thought about that "mantra" Braveheart. My h claimed he could feel me moving away from him. Like you, I had honestly stopped looking. I just wanted to be free from this excruciating pain and "letting go" was the only way I could find to do that. My h came screaming back as soon as he felt the shift. I was surprised, because I was not trying to "trick" him back.
Now, the business about them returning. Oh goodness. I don't think I have seen one single MLCer return COMPLETELY cooked. My friends h returned more finished then my h, but still, HE ALSO WANTED TO SWEEP it all aside. Both of us, had to stand very firm on that, "boundary"! There would be no sweeping this to one side. We would work through all of this, or at least as much as we were aware of, or we would not stay with them.
The beauty of having sorted yourself out, you are honestly capable of LEAVING them. You can live without them, as you have done so already. The truth is, they are the ones who have the most to lose. As most of them have not done the work they needed to do, so they need us, as ROLE MODELS.
As osb has experienced, with TIME they do begin to MIRROR us. WE don't need to be nasty and anger definitely doesn't help, although many of us discovered that "anger" at that time. I really wish I had had it out of my system before he returned, but sadly, I didn't. So we had to WEATHER that, along with him not being fully "cooked"!
Reconciliation is not easy, but if you are both willing to take the chance and do the work, you will be amazed at what can come out of it. Mostly, you have to be true to yourself and you have to be totally willing to "walk away" if it isn't what you both want.
Hugs Stayed
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The mirroring part actually scares me, as when I met my X all those years ago she seemed to enjoy everything I liked and appeared to be my "Soul Mate". I never really gave it much though until she did the same thing with the OM, mirroring all his likes and dislikes, most of them 180 degree's from her previous preferences.
It could be a lot of this MLC stuff is just a form of yet to be cataloged borderline personality disorder, where they have to mirror someone else because of a lack of their own.
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The beauty of having sorted yourself out, you are honestly capable of LEAVING them. You can live without them, as you have done so already. The truth is, they are the ones who have the most to lose.
Stayed I cannot believe how true this really is! When you go from thinking that you cannot BREATHE without them to thriving.....it is a powerful realization. I know it has to be a real eye-opener to H just how well I have done without him. His ego had made him believe that HE was responsible for my kids & I having a good life. What H didn't realize is that yes he worked very hard, but I was the glue that held it all together.
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I never really gave it much though until she did the same thing with the OM, mirroring all his likes and dislikes, most of them 180 degree's from her previous preferences.
BraveHeart
There are two possible conclusions -- the one you made, and which may be true for your W -- that she is a chameleon, empty of any true sense of self --
and then there is the MLC interprataion, which would say her shadow, ie her dark side, has subsumed and engulfed her -- so yes -- she is drawn to an opposite set of values.
BookWorm -- That fierceness and strength, and personal growth has created a wide gulf between the two of you -- The challenge is not to lose it in any Reconciliation phase you might undertake. Old, bad habits can quickly return with the proper stimulus.
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BookWorm -- That fierceness and strength, and personal growth has created a wide gulf between the two of you -- The challenge is not to lose it in any Reconciliation phase you might undertake. Old, bad habits can quickly return with the proper stimulus.
Without a doubt El Ray, this CAN BE very true! More reason to become as strong and healthy as you possibly can, because OLD HABITS do die hard. You don't ever want to go back to that.
Hugs... Stayed
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I never really gave it much though until she did the same thing with the OM, mirroring all his likes and dislikes, most of them 180 degree's from her previous preferences.
BraveHeart
There are two possible conclusions -- the one you made, and which may be true for your W -- that she is a chameleon, empty of any true sense of self --
and then there is the MLC interprataion, which would say her shadow, ie her dark side, has subsumed and engulfed her -- so yes -- she is drawn to an opposite set of values.
BookWorm -- That fierceness and strength, and personal growth has created a wide gulf between the two of you -- The challenge is not to lose it in any Reconciliation phase you might undertake. Old, bad habits can quickly return with the proper stimulus.
That's the problem with an R after one has "Got a Life", you are no longer who you were when you were together. This new you is totally alien to your MLC'er, many of whom seem to think the world stays static while they run the roads. Other than shared history, there might not be much left to salvage, kind of like old friends at a highschool reunion you no longer have anything in common with. After a hour or so at the reunion with them you begin to remember why you haven't kept in touch....
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Thanks for that reminder El, that yes we CAN fall back into old patterns with our MLCer. I think the thing to remember is that hopefully the changes you made are positive ones, and you don't want to loose that new part of yourself.
I know there are people who have R that have amazing new marriages (I think they will agree with the "new" terminology). Neither person is likely who they were before crisis hit. I would think (mind you I am no where near that yet-or so it seems) that if either party is sincere about R, you have to actively LOOK for the qualities you like and then BUILD upon them. Just as you would do in any new R. This will be a new R, because I don't know about y'all but I don't want to go back to the old one. Were there good times? Sure, but I can see now what I didn't see (or want to admit) then. I already know from listening to friends here, and my mother that R'ing is hard as hell.....I guess the question is "how bad do you want it?" Nothing in life is worth having if it isn't worth working hard for. I tell my kids this every day. Honestly for me, I don't know what I want. Just because he told me he loves me doesn't mean R.
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That's the problem with an R after one has "Got a Life", you are no longer who you were when you were together. This new you is totally alien to your MLC'er, many of whom seem to think the world stays static while they run the roads. Other than shared history, there might not be much left to salvage, kind of like old friends at a highschool reunion you no longer have anything in common with. After a hour or so at the reunion with them you begin to remember why you haven't kept in touch....
Its not a bug, its a feature.
Being new and better makes the R potentially new and better as well. While you very well may get feelings of deja-vu, it is in fact, new and stimulating.
Braveheart,
What I hear you saying over and over is that MLC made you take off wife-goggles -- that you saw your spouse is the true light of day -- and found that they were very different from the qualities that initially attracted you.
This does happen, especially to men, who tend to place a woman on a pedestal. We develop these goggles that make us see our wife as perfect and without flaws -- she truly is the most beautiful woman in the room in our eyes, thanks to "wife goggles" TM. Then MLC pops the bubble. The fantasy is harshly stripped away. We see both the MLCer and the reality of what they have been growing into for the last 20 years. The goggles are gone.
And once we are fooled once, we swear never again. We are twice shy -- we look for flaws in every female we encounter -- and we find them. This is its own form of emotional baggage carried from the divorce. I don't know if that resonates with you, but I see it a lot in a group of men who describe themselves at MGTOW -- Men Going Their Own Way. I can see myself ending up there too.
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What I hear you saying over and over is that MLC made you take off wife-goggles -- that you saw your spouse is the true light of day -- and found that they were very different from the qualities that initially attracted you.
This does happen, especially to men, who tend to place a woman on a pedestal. We develop these goggles that make us see our wife as perfect and without flaws -- she truly is the most beautiful woman in the room in our eyes, thanks to "wife goggles" TM. Then MLC pops the bubble. The fantasy is harshly stripped away. We see both the MLCer and the reality of what they have been growing into for the last 20 years. The goggles are gone.
And once we are fooled once, we swear never again. We are twice shy -- we look for flaws in every female we encounter -- and we find them. This is its own form of emotional baggage carried from the divorce.
Agree with this! And the bold part is part of the reason (among others) why many middle-aged divorced men either remain single or are extremely picky and leery of committing unless it is absolutely on our terms.
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What I hear you saying over and over is that MLC made you take off wife-goggles -- that you saw your spouse is the true light of day -- and found that they were very different from the qualities that initially attracted you.
This does happen, especially to men, who tend to place a woman on a pedestal. We develop these goggles that make us see our wife as perfect and without flaws -- she truly is the most beautiful woman in the room in our eyes, thanks to "wife goggles" TM. Then MLC pops the bubble. The fantasy is harshly stripped away. We see both the MLCer and the reality of what they have been growing into for the last 20 years. The goggles are gone.
And once we are fooled once, we swear never again. We are twice shy -- we look for flaws in every female we encounter -- and we find them. This is its own form of emotional baggage carried from the divorce.
Agree with this! And the bold part is part of the reason (among others) why many middle-aged divorced men either remain single or are extremely picky and leery of committing unless it is absolutely on our terms.
I don't this is unique to men. Many women feel the same way.
I think in terms of remarriage...many men remarry more often and quicker than many women do.
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Pedestal was on both sides here.
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I took the angle after BD and the exposure of the OM that I would follow my head rather than my heart from now on, and asked myself what I wanted out of life now. What I wanted was peace, contentment, do what I wanted and expose myself to as little drama as possible. When I run into something that exposes me to excess drama I ask myself if it's worth the bother, if it's not I quit doing it.
To this end lately I've gone "Monk", as dealing with women within my dating age range to be frank has been a pain in the ass. To be perfectly honest the idea of having a woman around full time no longer has much appeal, if I could pull off a mutual FWB I'd be quite happy with that. If I had an R with my X as I am now, she would be in the position I was in at BD, having no idea who this person is walking around in Braveheart's body...
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I'm absolutely loving this most controversial thread. Don't agree with all of it, but it's fun as Hell.
I can and can't see the pedestal stuff with XW. There were times I did put her on one and times I put her at the bottom of it. Sure after BD I wanted nothing more than her back, but that drive waned at times (bad choice of words that a few may understand).
Mad Hatter - The links in your posts are the same ones a friend of BH and mine uses. Do I know you from somewhere else?
Speaking of BH, where did you get your info on borderlines?
Last thing I want to add is that I fully believe that our spouses brought out a side of us no one else did. Sure we are different than when we were with them, but maybe that's just because they're not around to bring that inner side out. Just a thought.....
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Imine uses. Do I know you from somewhere else?
Speaking of BH, where did you get your info on borderlines?
Hi Thundaar, I don't even recall now where I got the information on Borderlines, I first run into the term when I worked in addictions back in the early 1980's. I ran into it again after BD when searching for the term "Mirroring", as I watched my X replay the same "Love Bombing" and Mirroring behavior I'd experinced when she first met me.
When I met my X and we hit it off so well, I just thought it finally had happened, I'd paid my dues and finally met my "Soul Mate". The part that throws me now is I'd never heard of a BPD being able to pull that act off for 24 years...
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Thundaar I fully agree my w brought out a side of me that I don't think anyone else could. Having been with her since 19 I feel I've really "grown up" emotionally since she left. We both behaved in ways that would probabaly be unacceptable to most healthy new partners. Maybe just bad habits from getting into a relationship at such a young age?
Also, I got a lot of info on bpd from the website gettinbetter.com.
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Mad Hatter - The links in your posts are the same ones a friend of BH and mine uses. Do I know you from somewhere else?
I doubt you know me on other forums as I tend to not cross-post / cross-link myself. However, as more & more of us "wake up", I'm guessing you will see more awareness!
I think in terms of remarriage...many men remarry more often and quicker than many women do.
Debatable!
May have been true in the past, but current media is saying otherwise. In fact, more men are actually opting out of marriage; even first marriages and never getting married at all! Several reasons for this; don't have time to get into it. However, This places the market of "marriageable" men at a low. If I remember correctly, the average age when a man gets married currently is 30. And this number is rising.
As far as getting married quicker, It may appear that way, but I would say it's more about supply and demand. Add in the fact of SMV cross-over which happens at mid-life (coincidental?), and the options for divorced males are greater.
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MH,
I read an article a few years ago where they took a survey of some kind and the results showed how the 4 groups hit on happiness.
Most happy: married men
2nd most happy: single women
3rd most happy: single men
Most unhappy: married women
Now it was taken a few years ago so it may be changing but I found it odd married men were the happiest and married women were the most unhappy. Not even sure I agree but it does seem men look at marriage as a greater advantage to their mental well being than women do.
I'm not a man so I'm only guessing. :) Things could very well be changing.
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Marriage and kids are the stabilizing force for men. Who knows where I would have ended up if I hadn't. I was partying it up when I met W. The kids cemented it for me. It forced me to do some growing up for sure.
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MH,
I read an article a few years ago where they took a survey of some kind and the results showed how the 4 groups hit on happiness.
Most happy: married men
2nd most happy: single women
3rd most happy: single men
Most unhappy: married women
Now it was taken a few years ago so it may be changing but I found it odd married men were the happiest and married women were the most unhappy. Not even sure I agree but it does seem men look at marriage as a greater advantage to their mental well being than women do.
I'm not a man so I'm only guessing. :) Things could very well be changing.
I would be more curious to see the age range of each of these individual groups and the reasons why. That would be more telling!
Marriage and kids are the stabilizing force for men. Who knows where I would have ended up if I hadn't. I was partying it up when I met W. The kids cemented it for me. It forced me to do some growing up for sure.
Would agree with this in the nuclear marriage era; this fulfills the need in our nature as providers / protectors. Now days, not so sure.
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Thunder is right -- there is a gender happiness gap.
The fascinating data behind this married/single gender issue is that men have been pretty steady, while women's happiness has been dropping in a one-way direction. Happiness levels for women have been declining since the 70s and are now lower than men.
Sociologists are puzzled on this trend for years. Even as female freedoms and choices have been increasing due to many cultural forces including birth control, higher college participation, wider career options, broader acceptance of domestic chore sharing with men, increased service consumption such as dining out etc -- happiness has declined.
http://greatergood.berkeley.edu/article/item/is_there_a_happiness_gender_gap
Mad Hatter -- as you suggested age would also be a factor, women live longer, and would therefore skew to an older average age.
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yes but I understand that married men live the longest and single men die the soonest
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I think modern feminism has steered women in this direction much to chagrin of the family.
For men, I think age plays a part in their confusion when kids are grown and they're nearing retirement. Their role as protector/provider is coming to an end and they don't know what to do next.
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op, not sure live span has anything to do with happiness...
Maybe there is merit to the "grin and bear it" way boys are raised. Simply putting a smile on your face effects your mood. Im not convinced of the benefits of being uber in touch with feelings. Lots of crap is gonna happen in life, we only control our reaction to it. I'd rather keep my head up and push through than "have a good cry". Not to say I never cry, but what good does it do to dwell on the negative feelings?
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Betty Freidan lays out the siren call well in The Feminie Mystique in the now famous opening line of her book from 1963.
"The problem lay buried, unspoken for many years in the minds of American women. It was a strang stirring, as sense of dissatisfaction, a yearning that women suffered in the middle of the twentieth century in the United States. Each suburban wife strugled with it alone. As she made the beds, shopped for groceries, matched slipcover material, ate peanut butter sandwiches with her children, chauffeured Cub Scounts and Brownies, lay beside her husband at night -- she was afraid to ask even of herself the silent question "Is this all?"
To me, this is the call that took my wife into MLC and may be closely linked to the happiness gender gap, as feminism leverages this question and raises it over and over, with an resounding answer of "HELL NO!!!! there must be more" -- and the more corrosive implication: if you are happy with this, something is wrong with you.
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If men do in fact remarry faster perhaps it's simply because they want to be married?!? If 70% of divorces are initiated by women it may be safe to assume the husband didn't want to be single in the first place. It's like losing a job... If u get fired but want to keep working u find a new job. If u want to be married but wife opts for divorce u find a new wife. I know it's not that simple...
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With my apologies to the women on the site.
I think it is quite easy to describe a married woman's unhappiness.
Woman have a double standard when it comes to their relationship's. When they first meet someone and feel the physical and emotional connection they will do everything in their power to latch onto that person. However over time as this person meets their needs, marries them, provides stability and support, the focus changes, children become more important, careers interfere with together time, expectations change, dissatisfaction with spouse that they didn't take the garbage out immediately upon request, or the bundle of flowers they brought home wasn't for the right season leads to an overall lack of respect. They start to see attractive men all around them that stirs their libido as the husband no longer does. Lying, deceit, cheating, affairs, MLC follows. It is just so much easier to get out of this stifling marriage than to put any effort into it no matter who gets hurt.
The problem is reality strikes, newly single yes however the support system is gone, hubby ain't around to sit with the kids while their off at playtime, hubby isn't providing the resources, the safety, or the filter.
Men sniff around but they only have one interest, divorced 30's or 40's looking, looking, looking, too late in most instances to realize how good they had it, because some other women has figured it out and snatched up their man. Why do women complain there are no good men left? Because most good men who have been shat upon will no longer tolerate the double standard.
I would be curious to see the happiness level of divorced women 1, 5, and 10 years following their divorce.
Mac
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yes but I understand that married men live the longest and single men die the soonest
OP, I have read this too in multiple places; married men are much happier and productive than single men. They do live longer and suffer less from ailments and other physical issues than single men.
I think modern feminism has steered women in this direction much to chagrin of the family.
This comment will probably receive some backlash; oh well!
One of the biggest issues modern women are running into is putting off the "body agenda" in favor of career and "having fun" in their 20's- early 30's with the idea of starting the family after. The problem is most of them are having a hard time "locking down" a man willing to commit by the time they are ready and their body is screaming to have a child. Most of them run into men during their "party years" willing to commit, but whilst having so much fun, ignore them for various reasons. Now in their 30's, things are not as easy as they were told and reality creeps in. They are now in competition with the younger women they once were. The men, who were willing to commit but were shunned, now really want nothing to do with them now that they have more options to choose from.
Say all you want about "maturity" and "being shallow" but the truth of the matter is this, and it is from our biological, primal brain:
- It is our primal, biological nature to procreate and have children
- Men have a large window in which to do this, as we can procreate from age 15 - 70ish, give or take depending on the man. Men natural prefer a young, healthy woman in which to do this as young healthy women produce healthy babies. Men are visual & physical by nature.
- Women have a smaller window, say 16 - 40ish, give or take, in which to procreate. Women are drawn to a man who attracts her and can provide for her. Back in the beginning, this would have been the warrior / hunter; the one who would bring home the food and provide protection. In modern days, this "security" is translated into the confident, successful man with the assets and potential and drive to provide.
Now taking these into account, it is reasonable to understand the trend of older men seeking younger women and vice versa. Younger women have the youth & beauty that men desire and are attracted to. The older man is viewed as established, especially if he has a career, success and drive.
I mentioned in a previous post about "SMV" (Sexual Market Value). This plays into all this natural body agenda. Women start off with a higher SMV and it tapers as their youth fades. Men start of low/lower and it increases with their success. Somewhere around the 30's & 40's, these SMV's cross and invert. The aging woman starts to find herself no longer marketable and eventually "hits the wall". She is now in competition with the younger women for the same men. Men are now enjoying the fruits of their success. The dating game is wide open and they are free to pick and choose from almost every age category.
This plays in with mid-life divorcees; men have greater options!
I know this is going to ruffle a lot of feathers but, as I said, this is primal body agenda. We can't help what we are attracted to! It's natural!
For men, I think age plays a part in their confusion when kids are grown and they're nearing retirement. Their role as protector/provider is coming to an end and they don't know what to do next.
This works both ways. The kids grow up, move out and no longer need nurturing and the woman says "well, what now? Is this all there is?"
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I know this is going to ruffle a lot of feathers but, as I said, this is primal body agenda. We can't help what we are attracted to! It's natural!
We can help what we do. And the more self aware we are of primal drivers, the more we can control them. Social Conditioning also helps -- a great example of that is potty training. For example, I might have a primal need to shat, but if I climb on your desk, and unload while you're in a meeting, I doubt you're gonna buy into the primal body agenda argument.
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With my apologies to the women on the site.
Woman have a double standard when it comes to their relationship's. When they first meet someone and feel the physical and emotional connection they will do everything in their power to latch onto that person. However over time as this person meets their needs, marries them, provides stability and support, the focus changes, children become more important, careers interfere with together time, expectations change, dissatisfaction with spouse that they didn't take the garbage out immediately upon request, or the bundle of flowers they brought home wasn't for the right season leads to an overall lack of respect. They start to see attractive men all around them that stirs their libido as the husband no longer does. Lying, deceit, cheating, affairs, MLC follows. It is just so much easier to get out of this stifling marriage than to put any effort into it no matter who gets hurt.
Well said!
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I know this is going to ruffle a lot of feathers but, as I said, this is primal body agenda. We can't help what we are attracted to! It's natural!
We can help what we do. And the more self aware we are of primal drivers, the more we can control them. Social Conditioning also helps -- a great example of that is potty training. For example, I might have a primal need to shat, but if I climb on your desk, and unload while you're in a meeting, I doubt you're gonna buy into the primal body agenda argument.
Kind of like Feminism right? I shouldn't be shamed for what I am naturally attracted to and desire! Sorry, don't buy it! If I have options, then I should go for the best options, whatever those may be!
And depending on how big an ass my boss is, and how crappy the job...meh...I might just take a shat on his desk! ;) :D 8)
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We agree about your boss, and if you want to be 70 chasing 20somethings, for one last chance at fatherhood, knock yourself out.
If you're single, follow your desires in a woman. But I suspect from what you've said, most of the negative female qualities you're highlighted are more pronounced in younger women.
My point about constrained behavior is within the context of having made promises and commitments. One could have read your rant and visualized the mind of a married male MLCer self-justifying his fling.
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I find myself attracted to younger fems. I appreciate beauty. No serious urge to go after them though. I keep in mind they haven't hit their own MLC yet and the crazy is yet to come.
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We agree about your boss, and if you want to be 70 chasing 20somethings, for one last chance at fatherhood, knock yourself out.
Nope, no desire for more kids! Body Agenda doesn't always follow what the brain wants!
If you're single, follow your desires in a woman. But I suspect from what you've said, most of the negative female qualities you're highlighted are more pronounced in younger women.
I will agree with you. On a personal note, while I do admire beauty, I don't necessarily favor a younger woman; common interests and the generation gap would leave it lacking! Plus, the modern younger woman is too entitled for me! I was merely pointing out what seems to be a common trend echoed across the interwebs and certain instinctual preferences I believe to be true.
My point about constrained behavior is within the context of having made promises and commitments. One could have read your rant and visualized the mind of a married male MLCer self-justifying his fling.
Again, agree with commitment and promises!
Wasn't really a rant, or meant to be; possibly long-winded in getting my thoughts across. And yes, I do believe some of these things play into "MLC" and "WAS" situations in one form or another. Maybe not the cause, but exacerbates it!
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With my apologies to the women on the site.
I think it is quite easy to describe a married woman's unhappiness.
Woman have a double standard when it comes to their relationship's. When they first meet someone and feel the physical and emotional connection they will do everything in their power to latch onto that person. However over time as this person meets their needs, marries them, provides stability and support, the focus changes, children become more important, careers interfere with together time, expectations change, dissatisfaction with spouse that they didn't take the garbage out immediately upon request, or the bundle of flowers they brought home wasn't for the right season leads to an overall lack of respect. They start to see attractive men all around them that stirs their libido as the husband no longer does. Lying, deceit, cheating, affairs, MLC follows. It is just so much easier to get out of this stifling marriage than to put any effort into it no matter who gets hurt.
The problem is reality strikes, newly single yes however the support system is gone, hubby ain't around to sit with the kids while their off at playtime, hubby isn't providing the resources, the safety, or the filter.
Men sniff around but they only have one interest, divorced 30's or 40's looking, looking, looking, too late in most instances to realize how good they had it, because some other women has figured it out and snatched up their man. Why do women complain there are no good men left? Because most good men who have been shat upon will no longer tolerate the double standard.
I would be curious to see the happiness level of divorced women 1, 5, and 10 years following their divorce.
Mac
I agree with the double standard here, but I think we have to be careful not to fall into the alpha/ beta pit that I've seen a lot of the LBS brothers fall into. I definitely don't think I am or was a beta, but the positive traits I had seemed to slowly shift to becoming undesirable relatively quickly with XW. In fact, I would say since she turned 40 and in essence lost her mother due to Alzheimer's. I don't think it was a slow progression for XW at all and likely hit her like a ton of bricks just like BD did me. Imagine waking up next to someone who you suddenly despise for being honest and humanitarian, someone who fathered your kids and is a big part of their lives. Imagine being completely repulsed by someone being nice to you and thinking they're weak when they compliment you. WE didn't change, but rather their interests did. The question is will things ever go back to normal?
As far as divorced women and happiness, all the research I've read suggests an extremely high level of unhappiness within the first five years and it really doesn't get much better for them if they stay single. Women almost always end up less financially stable than men after D and ironically have much more reason to stay married even though they are the ones initiating the D. Truly mind-boggling!
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We agree about your boss, and if you want to be 70 chasing 20somethings, for one last chance at fatherhood, knock yourself out.
If you're single, follow your desires in a woman. But I suspect from what you've said, most of the negative female qualities you're highlighted are more pronounced in younger women.
My point about constrained behavior is within the context of having made promises and commitments. One could have read your rant and visualized the mind of a married male MLCer self-justifying his fling.
Yes, this is the male shaming that's thrown around a lot these days, it's nearly always taken to extreme examples to throw in the "Creepy" factor as well. Almost no men of 70 are going to be dating 20 somethings, which most people would find creepy, but men 40-50 something will be dating 20-30 somethings.
We men get back on the single bandwagon, hit the gym, get new clothes, take ownership of our crap, fixed it, only to be told to lower our expectations to women our own age or older who have done none of the above and who we have no attraction too.
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Yes, this is the male shaming that's thrown around a lot these days, it's nearly always taken to extreme examples to throw in the "Creepy" factor as well. Almost no men of 70 are going to be dating 20 somethings, which most people would find creepy, but men 40-50 something will be dating 20-30 somethings.
Fair enough -- I did apply a creep factor -- I've always heard it said that for older single men: half your age plus seven is the bare minimum to avoid the social pressure of an implied creep factor.
So for the 40 year old, keep them about 27+ (40/2 + 7), and for a 50 year old 32+ (50/2 =7). Am I still telling you to lower your expectations?
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I agree with the double standard here, but I think we have to be careful not to fall into the alpha/ beta pit that I've seen a lot of the LBS brothers fall into.
Thundarr,
I'm not going to give you the "grow a pair" speech, but I would HIGHLY recommend Athol Kay's book -- Married Man's Sex Life Primer book -- in it, he very clearly highlights that alpha-beta gets it wrong -- just like you said.
His recommendation is to understand that as men, each of us have mix of these traits. IE -- we have a hammer, and we have a scalpel, or we can dance ballet and play football.
The secret is learning to be self aware and know which tool or which sport you tend to defer to, and be more conscious of choosing which to apply in any given situation. He spends a great deal of time talking about finding the right mix.
So the concept of Alpha OR Beta as you proposed it is a bit of a strawman argument -- because "BOTH w/ skill and intelligence" is a viable option.
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Thanks El. I'm very familiar with Kay's stuff as he was a popular topic of discussion on a male-centric forum I used to frequent with BH. I believe he was the one who proposed the "meta" designation for men as being the most successful. My statement on alpha/ beta was to the effect that our spouses did not leave us because we were beta and they were looking for an alpha. Perhaps some of us are more beta in some ways, but like you said we all have tendencies of each and what we display would vary depending on the setting.
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Elray
Thanks for the the heads up
53/2 + 7 - substantially opens up the playing field
Mac
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Hey Mac -- glad to help a brother out -- but that rules been around for at least a hundred years according to wikipedia...don't forget -- you must round up, just to be safe
:-D
http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=half-your-age-plus-seven
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I agree with the double standard here, but I think we have to be careful not to fall into the alpha/ beta pit that I've seen a lot of the LBS brothers fall into.
Thundarr,
I'm not going to give you the "grow a pair" speech, but I would HIGHLY recommend Athol Kay's book -- Married Man's Sex Life Primer book -- in it, he very clearly highlights that alpha-beta gets it wrong -- just like you said.
His recommendation is to understand that as men, each of us have mix of these traits. IE -- we have a hammer, and we have a scalpel, or we can dance ballet and play football.
The secret is learning to be self aware and know which tool or which sport you tend to defer to, and be more conscious of choosing which to apply in any given situation. He spends a great deal of time talking about finding the right mix.
So the concept of Alpha OR Beta as you proposed it is a bit of a strawman argument -- because "BOTH w/ skill and intelligence" is a viable option.
Kay's books are probably some of the best reading I personally experienced. Have read the MMSP 2011 and "How To Answer "Do These Pants Make My Ass Look Fat?" a couple times.
Reading Mindful Attraction Plan now which is essentially a GAL book in the context of marriage and relationships. He has other books/eBooks on his web site that are not offered on major book seller sites as well.
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Yes, this is the male shaming that's thrown around a lot these days, it's nearly always taken to extreme examples to throw in the "Creepy" factor as well. Almost no men of 70 are going to be dating 20 somethings, which most people would find creepy, but men 40-50 something will be dating 20-30 somethings.
Fair enough -- I did apply a creep factor -- I've always heard it said that for older single men: half your age plus seven is the bare minimum to avoid the social pressure of an implied creep factor.
So for the 40 year old, keep them about 27+ (40/2 + 7), and for a 50 year old 32+ (50/2 =7). Am I still telling you to lower your expectations?
Hmm with this age group I think you are setting yourself up to repeat history after a few years.
But then what would I know maybe you will be part of the lucky 25% that dont get divorced in the second time around.
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Op. I'm 42. I have a youn case of mlc. What age is "safe"? As I look at it the next 10 years are risky bets.
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Yes, this is the male shaming that's thrown around a lot these days, it's nearly always taken to extreme examples to throw in the "Creepy" factor as well. Almost no men of 70 are going to be dating 20 somethings, which most people would find creepy, but men 40-50 something will be dating 20-30 somethings.
Fair enough -- I did apply a creep factor -- I've always heard it said that for older single men: half your age plus seven is the bare minimum to avoid the social pressure of an implied creep factor.
So for the 40 year old, keep them about 27+ (40/2 + 7), and for a 50 year old 32+ (50/2 =7). Am I still telling you to lower your expectations?
Not at that level, but you would not believe the flak I've taken from women when I even suggest I don't date women my own age. The ones female friends have tried to set me up with clearly have nothing in common with me , eg. I'm fit, exercise daily, cycle, hike canoe etc. and they try and hook me up women whose idea of exercise is watching "Dancing with the stars"
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Yes, this is the male shaming that's thrown around a lot these days, it's nearly always taken to extreme examples to throw in the "Creepy" factor as well. Almost no men of 70 are going to be dating 20 somethings, which most people would find creepy, but men 40-50 something will be dating 20-30 somethings.
Fair enough -- I did apply a creep factor -- I've always heard it said that for older single men: half your age plus seven is the bare minimum to avoid the social pressure of an implied creep factor.
So for the 40 year old, keep them about 27+ (40/2 + 7), and for a 50 year old 32+ (50/2 =7). Am I still telling you to lower your expectations?
Hmm with this age group I think you are setting yourself up to repeat history after a few years.
But then what would I know maybe you will be part of the lucky 25% that dont get divorced in the second time around.
It's the problem I run into all the time, hence my current "Monk Mode". A great many women I've run into 42-50 are someone else's MLC wife, either still married or separated/divorced. With rare exceptions most Women over 50 do not appeal to me at all.
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El, what I think is "safe" is managing your emotional investment in future relationships. Just my .02.
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Yes, this is the male shaming that's thrown around a lot these days, it's nearly always taken to extreme examples to throw in the "Creepy" factor as well. Almost no men of 70 are going to be dating 20 somethings, which most people would find creepy, but men 40-50 something will be dating 20-30 somethings.
Fair enough -- I did apply a creep factor -- I've always heard it said that for older single men: half your age plus seven is the bare minimum to avoid the social pressure of an implied creep factor.
So for the 40 year old, keep them about 27+ (40/2 + 7), and for a 50 year old 32+ (50/2 =7). Am I still telling you to lower your expectations?
Hmm with this age group I think you are setting yourself up to repeat history after a few years.
But then what would I know maybe you will be part of the lucky 25% that dont get divorced in the second time around.
It's the problem I run into all the time, hence my current "Monk Mode". A great many women I've run into 42-50 are someone else's MLC wife, either still married or separated/divorced. With rare exceptions most Women over 50 do not appeal to me at all.
BH,
Are you looking for a 50+ year old woman who has never been married? Otherwise - she would be 1) Divorced/Separated; 2) Widowed; 3) Still married.
There really aren't too many other variations that I can think of.
L
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BH,
Are you looking for a 50+ year old woman who has never been married? Otherwise - she would be 1) Divorced/Separated; 2) Widowed; 3) Still married.
There really aren't too many other variations that I can think of.
L
I cant speak for BH but interpreted his comment to mean entirely too much baggage / issues still being carried around and not worked on or resolved!
Plus this comment sticks out:
Yes, this is the male shaming that's thrown around a lot these days, it's nearly always taken to extreme examples to throw in the "Creepy" factor as well. Almost no men of 70 are going to be dating 20 somethings, which most people would find creepy, but men 40-50 something will be dating 20-30 somethings.
Fair enough -- I did apply a creep factor -- I've always heard it said that for older single men: half your age plus seven is the bare minimum to avoid the social pressure of an implied creep factor.
So for the 40 year old, keep them about 27+ (40/2 + 7), and for a 50 year old 32+ (50/2 =7). Am I still telling you to lower your expectations?
Not at that level, but you would not believe the flak I've taken from women when I even suggest I don't date women my own age. The ones female friends have tried to set me up with clearly have nothing in common with me , eg. I'm fit, exercise daily, cycle, hike canoe etc. and they try and hook me up women whose idea of exercise is watching "Dancing with the stars"
He apparently keeps getting set up with women who do not have a fitness regimine, are overweight and out of shape, which he obviouly is not attracted to.
Why is it too much to ask for someone to maintain themselves and appearance? Is dedication to fitness and a healthy lifestyle too much to ask? He obviously maintains himself; its understandable he wants someone who appreciates a similar lIfestyle.
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Op. I'm 42. I have a youn case of mlc. What age is "safe"? As I look at it the next 10 years are risky bets.
All bets are off, if it's not MLC, all of them start hitting peri-menopause in their 40's. For a really scary look at what that can entail, check out some women's forums on menopause...it's what created the need for "Man Caves" in the first place.
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My take away from all this... Stick to women in the younger third of my formula range and manage any emotional investment.
For a laugh: https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=_VyKFuKYQNc
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Braveheart-Not at that level, but you would not believe the flak I've taken from women when I even suggest I don't date women my own age. The ones female friends have tried to set me up with clearly have nothing in common with me , eg. I'm fit, exercise daily, cycle, hike canoe etc. and they try and hook me up women whose idea of exercise is watching "Dancing with the stars"
I have gotten the same flack from my friends. I try to date men my age but I find NOTHING in common with them. I can't fake what I like. I am very active, love to camp on the ground in a sleeping bad and back pack it in the woods. Most men my age think of roughing it is getting a motel room.
I love heavy rock music, they are stuck in the 70s or like country. That is just not me.
I would love to meet a man my age who has my interests but I don't see them out there.
The men I meet who have those interests are always younger than me.
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Yes, this is the male shaming that's thrown around a lot these days, it's nearly always taken to extreme examples to throw in the "Creepy" factor as well. Almost no men of 70 are going to be dating 20 somethings, which most people would find creepy, but men 40-50 something will be dating 20-30 somethings.
Fair enough -- I did apply a creep factor -- I've always heard it said that for older single men: half your age plus seven is the bare minimum to avoid the social pressure of an implied creep factor.
So for the 40 year old, keep them about 27+ (40/2 + 7), and for a 50 year old 32+ (50/2 =7). Am I still telling you to lower your expectations?
Hmm with this age group I think you are setting yourself up to repeat history after a few years.
But then what would I know maybe you will be part of the lucky 25% that dont get divorced in the second time around.
It's the problem I run into all the time, hence my current "Monk Mode". A great many women I've run into 42-50 are someone else's MLC wife, either still married or separated/divorced. With rare exceptions most Women over 50 do not appeal to me at all.
BH,
Are you looking for a 50+ year old woman who has never been married? Otherwise - she would be 1) Divorced/Separated; 2) Widowed; 3) Still married.
There really aren't too many other variations that I can think of.
L
My point is most of them, regardless of their marital status, are in a mid life transition/crisis, peri-menopause or both....So why would any man who spent the last three to four years dealing with their X's crisis and rebuilt their life want to deal with that kind of drama again?
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My point is most of them, regardless of their marital status, are in a mid life transition/crisis, peri-menopause or both....So why would any man who spent the last three to four years dealing with their X's crisis and rebuilt their life want to deal with that kind of drama again?
I am sure you nor anyone else male or female would want to deal with that again.
However on the flip side of that you are making it sound like death sentence.
Maybe no one wants to deal with an LBS that is also in crisis.
But I believe that once we are all healed and whole again a relationship at the end of our lives can be
better than anything you ever imagined and will help you live a long and healthy life.
SO the point becomes how do we get "healed and whole" ?
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Just an observation but it seems post MLC women aren't even in the running for you guys why?
There are loads of fit lovely ladies at my Pilates class over 55 who are pretty frisky and feisty ;)
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I just wish there wasn't such a double standard.
If a man finds a woman years younger than himself he is not looked at as a predator, but if women find men years younger they are called cougars...or the men must have mommy issues.
I have always dated/married younger men and never once did I try to eat them or saw mommy issues in them.
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never once did I try to eat them
Arrgh so many puns so little time.... ;D
Glad to know you ain't a cannibal Thunder ;D
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My point is most of them, regardless of their marital status, are in a mid life transition/crisis, peri-menopause or both....So why would any man who spent the last three to four years dealing with their X's crisis and rebuilt their life want to deal with that kind of drama again?
I am sure you nor anyone else male or female would want to deal with that again.
However on the flip side of that you are making it sound like death sentence.
Maybe no one wants to deal with an LBS that is also in crisis.
But I believe that once we are all healed and whole again a relationship at the end of our lives can be
better than anything you ever imagined and will help you live a long and healthy life.
SO the point becomes how do we get "healed and whole" ?
My point is if we do the work required, we can get healed and whole, but once done the odds of finding your female equivalent are slim dating 45+. It's been my experience most people do not do the work required and simply lurch from one bad relationship to another looking for "Soul Mates" that will complete them
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Just an observation but it seems post MLC women aren't even in the running for you guys why?
There are loads of fit lovely ladies at my Pilates class over 55 who are pretty frisky and feisty ;)
I know several like that I cycle/ski/canoe with, or attend the same social functions, but for me I don't feel any physical attraction for most women in that age group. The ones that I have dated, having coffee with them was more like going to a job interview than a date :)
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Just an observation but it seems post MLC women aren't even in the running for you guys why?
There are loads of fit lovely ladies at my Pilates class over 55 who are pretty frisky and feisty ;)
I know several like that I cycle/ski/canoe with, or attend the same social functions, but for me I don't feel any physical attraction for most women in that age group. The ones that I have dated, having coffee with them was more like going to a job interview than a date :)
LOL They were probably trying to suss out whether you were pre or post MLC :)
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Quote
never once did I try to eat them
Arrgh so many puns so little time.... ;D
Glad to know you ain't a cannibal Thunder ;D
OMG -- LMAO!!!
The ones that I have dated, having coffee with them was more like going to a job interview than a date
BH --
Maybe you aren't doing it right. I started an online dating profile just to get a vibe of what single life might be like. I won't answer straight forward and it drives them crazy.
"Do you make good money at your job?"
"I don't know, I'll ask my butler."
"No, seriously. How much money do you make?"
"Let's just say that my refrigerator box is the envy of the entire hobo community."
"So do you have many friends?"
"Are you kidding? I have all 10 seasons! Joey is my favorite."
Women want to evaluate you and figure out your SMV -- then make a hypergamy related decision on your attraction level. Its natural. Don't get angry about it -- once you understand the motivation, simply scramble the pattern. The more you reveal, the more you drop in value. The interview date should be a dance -- where you maintain mystery and amusement. Keep in mind this advice comes from a guy who's only done this in text -- in real life I haven't dated in over 20 years.
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I have no real desire to get out there but you guys are scaring the hell out of me. Do all men really look at women this way? If you met a 40+ woman who was attractive, fit, and sane would she even stand out? I guess I can't blame you, given what you have been through and the women I know. Even H says all the women he has met are "crazy ows" and stupid, spoiled daddy's girls.
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Attractive, fit, sane women stand out regardless of age imo.
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Just an observation but it seems post MLC women aren't even in the running for you guys why?
There are loads of fit lovely ladies at my Pilates class over 55 who are pretty frisky and feisty ;)
I know several like that I cycle/ski/canoe with, or attend the same social functions, but for me I don't feel any physical attraction for most women in that age group. The ones that I have dated, having coffee with them was more like going to a job interview than a date :)
LOL They were probably trying to suss out whether you were pre or post MLC :)
Who knows :) It doesn't bother me much anymore, I'm pretty comfortable on my own. I'd like a woman in my life, but I don't need one.
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I have no real desire to get out there but you guys are scaring the hell out of me. Do all men really look at women this way? If you met a 40+ woman who was attractive, fit, and sane would she even stand out? I guess I can't blame you, given what you have been through and the women I know. Even H says all the women he has met are "crazy wh*res" and stupid, spoiled daddy's girls.
Sure they would stand out, but it's rare to find all that in one package :)
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There was a great line on the 2 1/2 men series when Alan decided to try online dating. The woman he met noted that Alan was single, Not gay, and employed which put him the top 1% of online daters.
I don't date anymore solely because available time when still having three minor children at home is minimal and the majority of women I've met and dated are looking for someone full time.
Again sorry ladies for the next comment, I'm attracted by your looks and assets, I keep coming back for the intimacy we generate as we spend time together.
Mac
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If you met a 40+ woman who was attractive, fit, and sane would she even stand out?
Of course she would. My sexual attraction radar would pickup a hot young 20 something faster -- but my brain and my emotions aren't going to be engaged in a meaningful relationship there.
Regarding "all men are like this?" --yes we are visual creatures first (but not only). I will point out something online dating has shown me -- women are too -- in one specific aspect -- physical height. I'm a short guy -- while I can and do need to get myself into dating shape, there's nothing I can do about my height. Women routinely say things in their profile like: "I'm 5'5" and like to wear heals so be at least 5'10". So returning to your question, in my honest opinion -- when I talk to guys one on one, they are worse than what you see here. This is, after all, a mixed gender environment, with women checking in regularly.
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When I was on a dating site I just read their bio/profile, usually all you need to know is right there. Never had to ask.
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Ok, Ill put this out there... I am no longer standing and initiated my divorce. I have a date next week and wonder if any of the guys (or ladies) want to weigh in with some advice. I'm specifically interested how to use some of the "strategies" discussed earlier to move from a fun, flirting relationship to something more intimate. Now I recognize this is a community for people standing for their marriages so if this topic is not appropriate I'll drop it. What I really want to do is put some of the tools Elray and others have touched on into practice. Again, I don't want to offend anyone here so we don't have to pursue this topic. That said I'm happy to report back and be the guinea pig of the man cave lol.
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Ok, Ill put this out there... I am no longer standing and initiated my divorce. I have a date next week and wonder if any of the guys (or ladies) want to weigh in with some advice. I'm specifically interested how to use some of the "strategies" discussed earlier to move from a fun, flirting relationship to something more intimate. Now I recognize this is a community for people standing for their marriages so if this topic is not appropriate I'll drop it. What I really want to do is put some of the tools Elray and others have touched on into practice. Again, I don't want to offend anyone here so we don't have to pursue this topic. That said I'm happy to report back and be the guinea pig of the man cave lol.
MHO is dont employ any strategies or anything else that is relationship oriented until you are divorced.
Odds are that it will be a rebound relationship as it is, and you will not be thinking rationally.
My .02
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Ok, Ill put this out there... I am no longer standing and initiated my divorce. I have a date next week and wonder if any of the guys (or ladies) want to weigh in with some advice. I'm specifically interested how to use some of the "strategies" discussed earlier to move from a fun, flirting relationship to something more intimate. Now I recognize this is a community for people standing for their marriages so if this topic is not appropriate I'll drop it. What I really want to do is put some of the tools Elray and others have touched on into practice. Again, I don't want to offend anyone here so we don't have to pursue this topic. That said I'm happy to report back and be the guinea pig of the man cave lol.
MHO is dont employ any strategies or anything else that is relationship oriented until you are divorced.
Odds are that it will be a rebound relationship as it is, and you will not be thinking rationally.
My .02
Depends on how long they've been standing, if the self work has been done and it's been a couple years I can't see the issue. There is always going to be a first relationship and they normally are of short duration.
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I'm laughing as I'm thinking that not one male LBS here would kick Cindy Crawford or Christie Brinkley out of bed! I can also think of several 40 and 50-somethings who I would definitely be interested in physically and mentally if I chose to go the dating route. No interest whatsoever in twenty-somethings, and in many ways women tend to get better with age as they lose the inhibitions that held them back before (non-MLC women I'm referring to here).
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Gotcha... I'm not looking for a second wife or LTR. I'm not interested in placing my emotional needs onto someone while I still have "work" to do. I also don't think that means I should sit in my house or live in the gym when there is someone I'm interested in casually dating that seems interested and knows my situation. This is probably not the right place for this discussion though.
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Gotcha... I'm not looking for a second wife or LTR. I'm not interested in placing my emotional needs onto someone while I still have "work" to do. I also don't think that means I should sit in my house or live in the gym when there is someone I'm interested in casually dating that seems interested and knows my situation. This is probably not the right place for this discussion though.
Heck with it; this is the MAN CAVE! So I am reading between the lines and basically, you just want to date (casually) and have a little fun. So, might as well cut right to the chase:
The Don Juan Bible - http://www.mts.net/~bpony/djbible/
SoSuave - http://www.sosuave.com/
Knock yourself out and tell us how it goes!
EDIT: The forums there can be a little "rough"; forewarned!
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You read correctly Madd... I'll report back next Friday.
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I have to say that I think there are just as many LBS women here that HAVE done the work, and are attractive/fit/mentally stable. So I guess it is a little shocking to me to think that a man my age (45) wouldn't be interested in me because of the "potential" for a MLC/peri menopause.
I have worked damn hard to heal myself and do the work. I have gone to IC, sought support here, and from friends/family. I know my worth, and frankly I think I have a hell of a lot more to offer then a young person who hasn't even experienced life. Am I perfect? Hell no, I have given birth to two children & not had plastic surgery. However I also look at other ladies and friends my age, and I am doing pretty good health wise. I am friends on FB with a couple of the men here, and I haven't scared the hell outta them :o
So all I can say boys is this: have fun with those 20 somethings, maybe you will get lucky and she won't have a MLC in your lifetime. However I think the odds of her having one are a hell of a lot higher then me having one. If I haven't gone bat$$h!te crazy after all my H has done to me.......I am thinking it ain't gonna happen. Plus I have always been a firm believer in "fixing" what ails me.
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"So all I can say boys is this: have fun with those 20 somethings, maybe you will get lucky and she won't have a MLC in your lifetime" - Bookwormmom
Thats the thing... I'm not certain that all the men here are really looking for a second wife or LTR. I've learned I don't need a woman in my life to meet emotional needs all the time. I don't want to speak for all the guys but my wifes crisis has opened my eyes to the role I want an intimate relationship to play in my life. I have young kids and don't intend to introduce them to any women I date. They get my 110% attention when I have them, which is about 2/3 of the time. So if I have my emotional needs met from friends and family, if I am honest with the women I see about my intentions, why do you have a problem with men wanting to date younger women? I'm not looking for the next "one" because there is no "one". No offense but your use of the word "boys" comes across as judgmental and bitter. I would never address ANY of the wonderful women here (or anywhere) as "girls" based on any comments you make or your dating preferences.
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Fair enough -- I did apply a creep factor -- I've always heard it said that for older single men: half your age plus seven is the bare minimum to avoid the social pressure of an implied creep factor.
Just my .02 worth. My H's ow fit this "formula" to the letter. That made her the same age as his oldest son. Ewwww. Creepy.
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I have to say that I think there are just as many LBS women here that HAVE done the work, and are attractive/fit/mentally stable. So I guess it is a little shocking to me to think that a man my age (45) wouldn't be interested in me because of the "potential" for a MLC/peri menopause.
I have worked damn hard to heal myself and do the work. I have gone to IC, sought support here, and from friends/family. I know my worth, and frankly I think I have a hell of a lot more to offer then a young person who hasn't even experienced life. Am I perfect? Hell no, I have given birth to two children & not had plastic surgery. However I also look at other ladies and friends my age, and I am doing pretty good health wise. I am friends on FB with a couple of the men here, and I haven't scared the hell outta them :o
So all I can say boys is this: have fun with those 20 somethings, maybe you will get lucky and she won't have a MLC in your lifetime. However I think the odds of her having one are a hell of a lot higher then me having one. If I haven't gone bat$$hit crazy after all my H has done to me.......I am thinking it ain't gonna happen. Plus I have always been a firm believer in "fixing" what ails me.
Based on what I know about guys on the second go round, at 45 you are probably going to be approached by guys in their mid 50's. Guys 45 are dating women in their mid 30's. The only one's that will be dating women in their 20's on a regular basis unless they are very well off will be in their 30's.
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LOL well mine also just made the bear minimum.
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I pretty much agree with Dji76, I have no intention of getting married again or cohabiting long term with another woman. If some much younger woman wants to spend time with me I'll just look the time spent as a gift, I wouldn't expect it to last.
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I pretty much agree with Dji76, I have no intention of getting married again or cohabiting long term with another woman. If some much younger woman wants to spend time with me I'll just look the time spent as a gift, I wouldn't expect it to last.
Would have to be traditional, exceptional, bring something to the table, and then, I believe as Dj posted earlier, manage your emotional attachment / investment in the relationship. And then, be extremely vigilante for red flags and BS.
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Got a good laugh DJ!
So you have found someone to date who is going to be at your beck and call and give you all the space you need to be a dad and fill your 'part time' emotional and sexual needs and all the while because you are 'honest' with these intentions...she will have no problems with all about you?? lol :)
What store did you buy that 'doll' at??? lol ;D
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What? If she wants to get into these pants, she's gonna have to sacrifice.
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Laugh away Rookie... Put yourself out there and see what you find. I'm not saying she will do it long term... I'm not the first guy I know personally to have found women intereseted in this. Not everyone wants a LTR.
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Hey, I was laughing with ya! thought it was a joke... ;D
I have 'been out there'....Started the same way you are thinking and it went good for about a MONTH! til she was scoping out my house to see if her kids 'could fit' too!
It was HELL trying to 'break it off' ...just say'n...
We ALL want to 'land' well...each with OUR OWN intentions... :)
(That was funny MeNow..lol)
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I'm laughing as I'm thinking that not one male LBS here would kick Cindy Crawford or Christie Brinkley out of bed! I can also think of several 40 and 50-somethings who I would definitely be interested in physically and mentally if I chose to go the dating route. No interest whatsoever in twenty-somethings, and in many ways women tend to get better with age as they lose the inhibitions that held them back before (non-MLC women I'm referring to here).
These are exceptions to the rule, not the norm. There are always exceptions to the rule; I believe what is being discussed is the general norm. While you can expect and require your partner to maintain physical fitness and health at any given time, you can't compare the average woman to super models. The media does enough of that and is a prime source for self-esteem issues.
Sorry; I white-knighted on that one, and I own it!
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Point well taken Rookie... Sorry I misunderstood your post. Also appreciate you sharing your experience so I know what to expect and look out for.
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DJ..once intercourse has been established..all bets are OFF where the relationship now goes/expectations with most everyone....Lets hope 'psycho/stalker/broken' isn't hidden in them ( or us) in the first few meet ups as we all put our best foot forward 'in the beginning'! ;D
Not trying to scare anyone..but...'casual sex' is out there if your lucky enough to find it and you won't truly know til you try and break it off, most sexual relationships have more expectations, if they are 'sleeping with you'..odds are they are hoping to be with you long term in my opinion.
Key word is most...
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Hey, I was laughing with ya! thought it was a joke... ;D
I have 'been out there'....Started the same way you are thinking and it went good for about a MONTH! til she was scoping out my house to see if her kids 'could fit' too!
It was HELL trying to 'break it off' ...just say'n...
We ALL want to 'land' well...each with OUR OWN intentions... :)
(That was funny MeNow..lol)
I LOL'd pretty hard at this. You sir, tried to have casual intimacy / FWB with a Baby-Mama! Doesn't work. To quote the movie Act Like A Lady, Think Like A Man:
"She ain't lookin' for a few laughs and some butt-naked sex; she done been a few laughs and some butt-naked sex! What she's lookin' for is a man; a father for her child!"
Either that or hypergamy kicked in!
Morale of the story, unless you're looking for something long term and willing to accept another man's spawn, best scratch Baby-Mama off your list!
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Hey Mad Hatter, ( wish I thought of that screen name! :) )
Baby Momma's make up a HUGE % of the 'realistically' available woman for our age..
Granted, some of the children have flown the coup and that is a bonus I guess as children do not want a new daddy ( or mommy) as much as we do not want new children. I still have a 11 and 8 yr old at home half time and would EXPECT pretty much the same for the 'otherside'..
I see how my own have handled my ex's OM..they 'get along' but have a deep desire to see him gone....
Brad Pitt might be able to pull off the 'perfect scenario' for a 'divorcee'.. ;D But if you find a woman over 30 with out children then..well you fill in the blank... ;D
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D
Dating advice following an MLC divorce.
Get checked first - Clean bill of health is a positive
Get fixed - I know three women you had crisis's at the same time that ended up pregnant - None stayed with Daddy.
There is a big difference between intimacy and sex - Sex is ridiculously easy just by being a straight, single, employed, non douchebag. Post MLC divorce sex is what you may be craving but intimacy is what your soul needs.
Be yourself, be a gentlemen, talk about them not you, and for God sake don't mention the X.
What you will probably blog is the sex felt great but it felt really weird sleeping next to them.
Good Luck
Mac
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I'm trying to stay out of the man-cave but I have a question for mad-hatter. Do you have a thread? I can't find it but I love your attitude.
OK....back to your MAN CAVE programming.
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If you met a 40+ woman who was attractive, fit, and sane would she even stand out?
Of course she would. My sexual attraction radar would pickup a hot young 20 something faster -- but my brain and my emotions aren't going to be engaged in a meaningful relationship there.
Regarding "all men are like this?" --yes we are visual creatures first (but not only). I will point out something online dating has shown me -- women are too -- in one specific aspect -- physical height. I'm a short guy -- while I can and do need to get myself into dating shape, there's nothing I can do about my height. Women routinely say things in their profile like: "I'm 5'5" and like to wear heals so be at least 5'10". So returning to your question, in my honest opinion -- when I talk to guys one on one, they are worse than what you see here. This is, after all, a mixed gender environment, with women checking in regularly.
I wasn't talking about the visual thing so much(although the preference for younger women is imposing) as the suspicion, I guess? Like are all men going to view me as potentially crazy, money and status hungry? And el, I am smh over that comment about height-I guess it is at least an easy way to weed out vapid stupidity.
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I'm trying to stay out of the man-cave but I have a question for mad-hatter. Do you have a thread? I can't find it but I love your attitude.
OK....back to your MAN CAVE programming.
I have no thread here. My story is inconsequencial and was finished long before I created this account. Its no different than any other, just change the names, places, circumstances. But, I know you ladies love a juicy story, so here goes:
I was married
We had a life
She had a crisis
I worked on things
We separated
I educated myself some more
We divorced
The End
For now, I choose to only participate in the Man Cave!
Thanks for loving my attitude. I'm a bit raw at times, but sometimes reality bites.
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I wasn't talking about the visual thing so much(although the preference for younger women is imposing) as the suspicion, I guess? Like are all men going to view me as potentially crazy, money and status hungry? And el, I am smh over that comment about height-I guess it is at least an easy way to weed out vapid stupidity.
Guys, at least the divorced guys I know who tend to be high earner, are worse in person about that too. Two factors at play-- paying alimony month after month. And secondly, a lack of confidence.
Remember each and every one of us was convinced we had found some one who wasn't like this; but at this point we concede that we have no special talent-- nothing more than an ape throwing darts... And paranoia sets in.
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"no special talents - nothing more than an ape throwing darts"...Could barely type that out I was laughing so hard! ;D ;D..good one!! but speak for your self! ;D I have an extra long tongue! lol ;D...(JK)
So, you realize your ordinary and that frightens you....Someone will come along (maybe even your wife) and realize your 'potential' and 'talents' and think they hit the jack pot...the 'beholder' thing applies here. Just have to get through the forrest to see it.
Thanks for the laugh! ;D
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Hmm...I didn't even realize this thread existed lol. In my case, woman have left me alone for the most part until recently. I guess my W has a lot of people convinced we are officially divorced lol. (not a single shred of legal stuff has been started).
Even her favorite cousin's (they might as well be bro/sis) best friend's family is trying to hook me up with their cousin. She wants to date me just from my pictures and their description of me (they know I'm a good guy and don't deserve this). Not everyone believes the BS an MCLer spews. She's cute, but I need to know more about her divorce...if she initiated...major red flags for me.
And now an attractive woman from the gym has been hitting on me. I ran into her at a "healthy" grocery store this past weekend. Granted, I say healthy because they have organic veggies/fruits. I grabbed some range fed Montana burger (the best) and a 6 pack of some locally brewed scotch ale. lol Range fed is healthy I guess. :) Anyhow, she assumed I was a bachelor as a result and has been hitting on me since. Which is nuts because most women leave me alone at the gym, but not her. And I'm not ripped like I was a few years ago. I've got some fat to lose now.
Anyways, it is crazy how many people see us as targets. Like we're knights in shining armor ready to save whatever friend/family member they feel fit because we're generally good, loyal guys. Like they'll treat us better than our W's ever did (wouldn't take much I guess). I don't know about the rest of you, but I'm pretty scorned and protective of my ego now. Single doesn't seem so bad for a while.
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Anyways, it is crazy how many people see us as targets. Like we're knights in shining armor ready to save whatever friend/family member they feel fit because we're generally good, loyal guys. Like they'll treat us better than our W's ever did (wouldn't take much I guess). I don't know about the rest of you, but I'm pretty scorned and protective of my ego now. Single doesn't seem so bad for a while.
It's almost like a conspiracy sometimes. Like it is a crime to be a successful, fit man and be single and enjoying yourself and focusing on you! As soon as word gets out, everyone is trying to hook you up with someone!
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For me, I was damaged goods for quite some time in people's eyes..even woman at work who used to flirt with me while I wore a ring 'backed off'...Guess the writing was on the wall..err my face... :)
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Okay, so I am joining the discussion a little late...
I have to go with DJ on this. I know it goes "against the grain" about being heathy and healing and all that, but I can either choose to stay home, sulk, and wallow in my own self pity, or get out and have fun. Yes, I know...you don't NEED anyone to have fun by yourself. I get it...but REALLY, who wants to go out to dinner and movie all by yourself? CREEPY.
Maybe I hit the diamond in the rough, I don't know. But the gal I am seeing now is 7 years older-past MLC check. Past menopause check. Its independent check. Is fun to be with check. Is attractive to me check.
Where is our relationship going? Who knows. Who cares. We are both on the same page. Oddly enough though she keeps telling me that she is my "rebound" and is okay with it. :o I honestly think she just wants to get out and have fun too. Of course neither one of us have any desire to end up in our old age alone. Maybe we are meant for each other, maybe not. We are both living one day at a time. Oh, although she is a "baby momma", her youngest is 18. She is about to be an empty nester.
Quick note-all the guys here have obviously been BADLY burned...we are amoung the lucky few whose spouses went MLC bat$hit crazy. I know MLC is becoming more of a problem, and we are all treading with caution, but really...what are the odds of your next r to end up going MLC? I would say pretty low-especially at our age.
Back on my sitch...okay, so granted...I cheated as far as everyone at work was encouraging me to date YOUNGER, I purposely sought out someone past all this midlife BS.
-T
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Anyways, it is crazy how many people see us as targets. Like we're knights in shining armor ready to save whatever friend/family member they feel fit because we're generally good, loyal guys. Like they'll treat us better than our W's ever did (wouldn't take much I guess). I don't know about the rest of you, but I'm pretty scorned and protective of my ego now. Single doesn't seem so bad for a while.
Funny when it hit's you...Single ain't bad. It hit me when I was in the local grocery store on Valentines day last year. The place was full of harried husbands buying last minute roses and candy, none of them looked very happy about it. There I stood in my track pants and two days growth of beard suddenly smiling, I wasn't even aware it was Valentine's day. I took my bottle of merlot, steak and mushrooms home, did a fry up and watched "Flyboys" with the dog.
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For me, I was damaged goods for quite some time in people's eyes..even woman at work who used to flirt with me while I wore a ring 'backed off'...Guess the writing was on the wall..err my face... :)
Yep, the smell of desperation :) I found a lot of people seemingly avoiding me, invites dried up as a newly single guy. A lot of our female friends acted like I must have done some terrible thing for my wife to have left ( the automatic assumption it seems) Even after it became known the kids were living with me full time things seemed "off" for a while. After a while I quit giving a damn what anyone thought and things changed.
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Lol Brave, yep..must be that smell! lol
Women who 'seemed' to want to sleep with me while I was married , walked away quite easily when my ring came off..hmmmm
Maybe they figured there was no wife to destroy for them anymore so what's the use of sleeping with me now! lol.. ;D
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Agree bh and I'd take it a step further and say I'm enjoyin being single. I've accepted my w isn't the same person I knew and isn't coming back. I enjoy my alone time and spend most of it at the gym or with my guy friends. Adding in dating is just something else to do. Not looking for an ltr but I'm open to all possibilities... No expectations.
Rookie... Most women are all talk. Once your ring came off and sh!t was real their true colors come out. Suddenly you were no longer the harmless married guy.
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I told my H taking his wedding ring off wasn't the best idea if he wants to meet ladies. lol
Single looks a lot scarier to women.
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So what is it then with woman and married men??
All talk or A married man is more attractive because he is taken and a woman may decide they want him....
I, as a single male now, will look first at the woman, if she peaks my interest I will then look right to her rings finger, if she is wearing one I immediately put her out of sight/out of mind...If she is not..I may 'follow' her through out the store... ;D ;D
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Funny when it hit's you...Single ain't bad. It hit me when I was in the local grocery store on Valentines day last year. The place was full of harried husbands buying last minute roses and candy, none of them looked very happy about it. There I stood in my track pants and two days growth of beard suddenly smiling, I wasn't even aware it was Valentine's day. I took my bottle of merlot, steak and mushrooms home, did a fry up and watched "Flyboys" with the dog.
Lol, exactly. I think this was one of the best Valentines Day's I've had in a while. I didn't even have to worry about it other than getting some stuff for my son to hand out at school.
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Just imho,
There are two types of woman who do this with married men. Firstly the one with the low self esteem who has been cheated in herself. The woman who wants to remove the man from his wife as this confirms she is better. Indirectly she is getting revenge on the woman who did this to her. The woman who hates women.
The second type is the one who knows he is married and believes therefore he is not going to want her to follow through on anything more that a flirt or a bawdy joke. All go home with an ego boost and having had a bit of a laugh.
My take on that one.
Guess which category our ow's fit into.
Sd
X
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10 months divorced now, no women hitting on me and I was wondering if I was becoming invisible to the opposite sex.
Then I read this quote from stayed.
I'm a very firm believer that we will not find anybody until we are truly READY to be with another. I think we have much healing to do and until we are healed we are unable to love "fully". I also believe that there are two types of LBS's. There is the vulnerable type, that the opposite sex can spot a mile away and will rush in and take advantage of them.... or their are the "NOT INTERESTED" types. The not interested type, gives off an aura that screams, NOT INTERESTED! In anybody.
When a not interested type becomes ready to live again, they attract like minded type of people. Loving, caring, want to share their life with somebody type people.... just like themselves.
So I'm just gonna keep doing what I'm doing and let my aura change of it's own accord.
Lanzo
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I think I may be one of the only guys here who's entered into another serious relationship shortly after divorce...against the advice of most everyone here.
its been 1 year with my GF and things are good. There have been some challenges for sure, sometimes she catches me being emotionally withdrawn. But I learned a lot through my marriage with my XW, especially after she walked away...and I'm trying hard to use what I've learned to build a better relationship.
I feel pretty lucky to have met this particular girl, and she feels the same. I like having a partner in life, and my kids are happy about it as well.
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Lol Brave, yep..must be that smell! lol
Women who 'seemed' to want to sleep with me while I was married , walked away quite easily when my ring came off..hmmmm
Maybe they figured there was no wife to destroy for them anymore so what's the use of sleeping with me now! lol.. ;D
A guy with a woman passes the "Pre selected" barrier, basically if he's with her he's passed a test. I knew a guy that never did well with women until he started showing up a venues with good looking escorts ( no sex) he hired as eye candy... so yeah there's something to it.
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Agree bh and I'd take it a step further and say I'm enjoyin being single. I've accepted my w isn't the same person I knew and isn't coming back. I enjoy my alone time and spend most of it at the gym or with my guy friends. Adding in dating is just something else to do. Not looking for an ltr but I'm open to all possibilities... No expectations.
Rookie... Most women are all talk. Once your ring came off and sh!t was real their true colors come out. Suddenly you were no longer the harmless married guy.
When I looked into those shark eyes at BD** I knew it was over...I now have a tribe of like minded guys I hang out with, I might even form a "Manestary"
**http://youtu.be/u9S41Kplsbs?t=1m31s
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Rookie- So what is it then with woman and married men??
Their safe, non-threatening, plus they have a proven track record of commitment. All very attractive to women.
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Rookie- So what is it then with woman and married men??
Their safe, non-threatening, plus they have a proven track record of commitment. All very attractive to women.
And it is for those reasons, along with pre-selection, that mate-poaching occurs!
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Funny when it hit's you...Single ain't bad. It hit me when I was in the local grocery store on Valentines day last year. The place was full of harried husbands buying last minute roses and candy, none of them looked very happy about it. There I stood in my track pants and two days growth of beard suddenly smiling, I wasn't even aware it was Valentine's day. I took my bottle of merlot, steak and mushrooms home, did a fry up and watched "Flyboys" with the dog.
Made me laugh!! Love it!!
10 months divorced now, no women hitting on me and I was wondering if I was becoming invisible to the opposite sex.
Then I read this quote from stayed.
I'm a very firm believer that we will not find anybody until we are truly READY to be with another. I think we have much healing to do and until we are healed we are unable to love "fully". I also believe that there are two types of LBS's. There is the vulnerable type, that the opposite sex can spot a mile away and will rush in and take advantage of them.... or their are the "NOT INTERESTED" types. The not interested type, gives off an aura that screams, NOT INTERESTED! In anybody.
When a not interested type becomes ready to live again, they attract like minded type of people. Loving, caring, want to share their life with somebody type people.... just like themselves.
So I'm just gonna keep doing what I'm doing and let my aura change of it's own accord.
Lanzo
I saw this post too Lanzo and decided to do the same as you ie let my aura change all on its own.
You know, I knew I was taking my life in my hands when I entered the man cave but you guys had me terrified I was destined to be single for ever given that I'm nearing 50 and no longer the same weight I was at 20.
I remember being so mad at my H for waiting til I was "fat, flabby and (approaching) 50" before he dumped me... Could he not have dumped me when I was younger and trimmer ;D
I'm pretty sure the time will come when I will ramp up the exercise routine and get back into the waxing ;) but maybe I'm happy to be invisible for now. You are all so correct saying there is healing to be done, and baggage to be sorted, and no I'm not sure I'm interested in a full on 100% committed LTR either.
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Love the 'term'...'mate-poaching'... ;D lol
I cannot say that happened in my sitch..I believe my ex sought out her OMen and under the demise that she was through with the marriage, I was to blame, and that she was 'already divorced' in her mind...
Do I believe that happens? 100% yes... ;D
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Rookie, I agree. As soon as the word ILUBLILWY came out of his mouth, in his head, he was already divorced.
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MLC is rather atypical in many ways -- and mate poaching is more of a traditional cause of divorce.
Switching topics...
Has any body read about the "MGTOW" movement. Its been referenced a couple of times here. As in Men Going Their Own Way -- it basically is the concept of deciding watching flyboys with your dog is more fun than pursuing relationships with women. Not just for some time of healing, but as a permanent way of life. Sort of a "they aren't worth the trouble" mindset. I've seen it a lot mentioned by older men, but starting to see it popping up in younger men's conversations as well, which seems rather concerning to me.
So last night, I was reading about the "grass eaters" or "herbivores" in Japan -- young men who aren't interested in women. Asexual creatures. Some polling in Japan has upwards of 60% of men under 30 self-identifying as this. They have a Japanese word they use -- Mendokusai -- which loosely translates to "not worth the trouble".
http://www.theguardian.com/world/2013/oct/20/young-people-japan-stopped-having-sex
http://www.avoiceformen.com/sexual-politics/m-g-t-o-w/a-real-study-of-japanese-herbivore-men/
The government in Japan is actually worried about the implications of this in terms of population growth. Is this the same dynamic as MGTOW, and could it ever get this widespread in the US?
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I'm pretty sure the time will come when I will ramp up the exercise routine and get back into the waxing ;) but maybe I'm happy to be invisible for now. You are all so correct saying there is healing to be done, and baggage to be sorted, and no I'm not sure I'm interested in a full on 100% committed LTR either.
No better way to get rid of baggage that hitting the gym, it was the only thing that seemed to work right away. Whatever anger I had could be aimed at the weights, rowing machine or bike. There's a lot of stuff we can't do much about, but we can control the physical aspect of our being and when we feel physically better the rest follows.
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10 months divorced now, no women hitting on me and I was wondering if I was becoming invisible to the opposite sex.
Then I read this quote from stayed.
I'm a very firm believer that we will not find anybody until we are truly READY to be with another. I think we have much healing to do and until we are healed we are unable to love "fully". I also believe that there are two types of LBS's. There is the vulnerable type, that the opposite sex can spot a mile away and will rush in and take advantage of them.... or their are the "NOT INTERESTED" types. The not interested type, gives off an aura that screams, NOT INTERESTED! In anybody.
When a not interested type becomes ready to live again, they attract like minded type of people. Loving, caring, want to share their life with somebody type people.... just like themselves.
So I'm just gonna keep doing what I'm doing and let my aura change of it's own accord.
Lanzo
I read Stayed's quote and reacted with both "oh crap" and "hooray" because it well described me. Over the last months I've felt I was making that turn finally. Now I met someone that I have been hearing about for a long time who has similar LBS experience and reaction to it. I am looking forward to what the future holds, going ultra slow to keep expectations in check. I'm relieved that I am comfortable letting my walls down, was scared they were going to be permanent structures.
Congrats Split. Feel you on that partner thing.
Lanzo - best of luck to you. Continue to do right, heal, let go, do God and your spirit can change. Then someone may walk through a door with that mutual thought of "well there they are......now what?"
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MLC is rather atypical in many ways -- and mate poaching is more of a traditional cause of divorce.
Switching topics...
Has any body read about the "MGTOW" movement. Its been referenced a couple of times here. As in Men Going Their Own Way -- it basically is the concept of deciding watching flyboys with your dog is more fun than pursuing relationships with women. Not just for some time of healing, but as a permanent way of life. Sort of a "they aren't worth the trouble" mindset. I've seen it a lot mentioned by older men, but starting to see it popping up in younger men's conversations as well, which seems rather concerning to me.
So last night, I was reading about the "grass eaters" or "herbivores" in Japan -- young men who aren't interested in women. Asexual creatures. Some polling in Japan has upwards of 60% of men under 30 self-identifying as this. They have a Japanese word they use -- Mendokusai -- which loosely translates to "not worth the trouble".
http://www.theguardian.com/world/2013/oct/20/young-people-japan-stopped-having-sex
http://www.avoiceformen.com/sexual-politics/m-g-t-o-w/a-real-study-of-japanese-herbivore-men/
The government in Japan is actually worried about the implications of this in terms of population growth. Is this the same dynamic as MGTOW, and could it ever get this widespread in the US?
This is the end result of the demonization of masculinity, covered in the book "The Way Of Men". Men traditionally have been the builders and maintainers of civilization, enforcing the Security perimeter that allows it to function. The trade off for Men has alway been that there was always something in it for men to maintain society and protect it. When Men see there is nothing in it they drop out of that society and begin to form a new one, much like Monks did during the Dark Ages.
The masculine traits required to do this have been under attack since the late 1960's. Boys are now are being told daily that they are all potential Rapists/Pedophile/Abusers of girls & women, that their very gaze has such power they should be ashamed of their own sex. Men at work now avoid contact with female coworkers because they know they are only one HR visit away from losing their job over a overheard private joke.
It's got so bad some Fraternities at colleges have tried to prevent any hint of sexual assault by banning any women who are obviously drunk when they get there from entering the premises, only to be told they can't becuase it is a form of "Victim Blaming"...A well know writer who suggested this idea to fraternities in a column he wrote was fired....
So yeah, I can see why a lot of younger guys look at what has happened to their divorced fathers, and watched their Mom go through a string of looser boyfriends say the hell with it and play video games. I can also see why older guys like me whose kids are about to leave the nest just decide to go hunting,fishing, play pool, work on cars/boats/motorcycles and only hook up for short term relationships....
The funniest/saddest thing is that now the woman's movement has got just about everything they ever wanted, women are less happy now that when all this started circa 1970, with 25% of them are on anti depressants....
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The funniest/saddest thing is that now the woman's movement has got just about everything they ever wanted, women are less happy now that when all this started circa 1970, with 25% of them are on anti depressants....
To put it more bluntly; the "movement" has f**ked up the natural gender roles and many are left with no clear identity or purpose!
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Yup, women's movement did us no favors.
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25% on anti-depressants
So you are saying 75% are roaming around unmedicated! ::)
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Wow,
Pretty good post Brave..not sure how much of it is really true or happening but it seems to make sense..( I haven't done any research or put much thought in it yet other than what you wrote).
I didn't realize it but I am actually going through MGTOW as of late...
My 'guess' for now is that 'mother nature' will win out..and no such movement will be sustained..It kinda reminds me of when me and all my high school friends hung out and talked macho about not needing a steady girl til each of us were plucked out by one! ;D
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lol..sleepless... ;D
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25% on anti-depressants
So you are saying 75% are roaming around unmedicated! ::)
I was thinking the same thing!
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Wow,
Pretty good post Brave..not sure how much of it is really true or happening but it seems to make sense..( I haven't done any research or put much thought in it yet other than what you wrote).
I didn't realize it but I am actually going through MGTOW as of late...
My 'guess' for now is that 'mother nature' will win out..and no such movement will be sustained..It kinda reminds me of when me and all my high school friends hung out and talked macho about not needing a steady girl til each of us were plucked out by one! ;D
A good book to read on this is "Men on Strike" by Dr. Helen Smith:
Here is a lengthy interview with her on her book and views:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YpFN5KT8pzw
A shorter, to the point version:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BoXQf2f2Yxo
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Pretty good post Brave..not sure how much of it is really true or happening but it seems to make sense..( I haven't done any research or put much thought in it yet other than what you wrote).
There's no doubt its happening in Japan. While Japan's overall birth rate decline is well documented, the individual numbers are even more startling.
Japan's population fell by a record 268,000 people last year, new data show, with preliminary figures showing just more than 1 million births in 2014.
The figures released by the country's health ministry showed that the estimated number of people who died in 2014 was 1,269,000, about 1,000 above the previous year. The number of births was 1,001,000, down about 29,000 from 2013. The total population declined by a record 268,000.
A local school in Nanmoku, 85 miles from Tokyo, had 1,250 first graders 50 years ago. In 2012, it had only 37
That year over year gross birth count decline is easy math: (-2.9%) == in one year -- the herbivore movement is largely regarded to have begun there in the artist and entrepreneurial social groups in 2007 and has been growing rapidly since, so its impact on birth rates is just beginning to bite.
And in case you were wondering, the Herb in question is exactly what you were already thinking.
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Wow,
Pretty good post Brave..not sure how much of it is really true or happening but it seems to make sense..( I haven't done any research or put much thought in it yet other than what you wrote).
I didn't realize it but I am actually going through MGTOW as of late...
My 'guess' for now is that 'mother nature' will win out..and no such movement will be sustained..It kinda reminds me of when me and all my high school friends hung out and talked macho about not needing a steady girl til each of us were plucked out by one! ;D
I think a lot of men go through this MGTOW phase in recovery, it's part of the process. Myself, I've just decided to do what I want now with as little drama from the opposite sex as possible. When I do run into it I just flip their own script back at them, Eg. "Not all men are like that, that's sexist gender bashing!"
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Wow,
Pretty good post Brave..not sure how much of it is really true or happening but it seems to make sense..( I haven't done any research or put much thought in it yet other than what you wrote).
I didn't realize it but I am actually going through MGTOW as of late...
My 'guess' for now is that 'mother nature' will win out..and no such movement will be sustained..It kinda reminds me of when me and all my high school friends hung out and talked macho about not needing a steady girl til each of us were plucked out by one! ;D
A good book to read on this is "Men on Strike" by Dr. Helen Smith:
Here is a lengthy interview with her on her book and views:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YpFN5KT8pzw
A shorter, to the point version:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BoXQf2f2Yxo
That is a good one, "The Female Brain" is another one, I forget the name of the author.
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D
Dating advice following an MLC divorce.
Get checked first - Clean bill of health is a positive
Get fixed - I know three women you had crisis's at the same time that ended up pregnant - None stayed with Daddy.
There is a big difference between intimacy and sex - Sex is ridiculously easy just by being a straight, single, employed, non douchebag. Post MLC divorce sex is what you may be craving but intimacy is what your soul needs.
Be yourself, be a gentlemen, talk about them not you, and for God sake don't mention the X.
What you will probably blog is the sex felt great but it felt really weird sleeping next to them.
Good Luck
Mac
I just watched something and it reminded me of this post and crucial advice from Mac49 which I have "subtley" highlighted above. This is for all of you that start dipping into the dating pool for whatever reason. LISTEN to this video below; not only will you get a good laugh; you will see why this advice is so important!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hg-I8tLm3_E
EDIT: The woman at the end of this is hilarious!
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Thanks for the link Mad H...Watched all 50 minutes..interesting to say the least..To think that the 'female species are picking us clean' by becoming more and more independent I guess isn't a far stretch for future 'male species' to go find their 'instinctive need' somewhere else if you will...hmmm. Will ponder that more if only for 'entertainment purpose's' at the moment..
On another note...I am all for the MEN getting FIXED!! I did after my 4th child who was our only OOPS baby...It took 20 minutes!!! and WELL WORTH peace of mind!! I procrastinated for a year and OOOOOOPPPPPS...just say'n..it DOES happen!
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On another note...I am all for the MEN getting FIXED!! I did after my 4th child who was our only OOPS baby...It took 20 minutes!!! and WELL WORTH peace of mind!!
DITTO
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I briefly read here sometimes, it is the man cave.
Just nice to get a blokes perspective sometimes.
To think I thought my h loved getting me flowers and things on Valentines, gutted lol.
Please some guy tell me they liked to!!!!! any brave ones?
Restore me some faith or my next Valentine might end up in the toilet.
I dont want to be a man eater, I like nice, I like doors opened for me, I never forget to say thank you and I will never ever have casual sex, well I dont think I will lol, there is a better chance I wont, dont want to end up telling porkies so added that just in case.
Does the man of my dreams exist, I dont want a pretend one!!!!
To be fair I am still married but only just.
No offence guys I know its your thread, interesting though
x
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Previously no, I hated picking out holiday gifts. Now after all that's happened in my life, I enjoy it, not so much the shopping but picking something special so that she feels special.
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Just nice to get a blokes perspective sometimes.
To think I thought my h loved getting me flowers and things on Valentines, gutted lol.
Please some guy tell me they liked to!!!!! any brave ones?
Restore me some faith or my next Valentine might end up in the toilet.
No, I didn't much enjoy buying gifts and cards for valentines. I liked to surprise my wife with gifts and surprises at totally random times. To my way of thinking, Valentines was an obligation and expected. Not much of a surprise, and not particularly sincere or special if you have to do it to avoid getting into trouble.
Does the man of my dreams exist,
What are you dreaming? :)
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No, I didn't much enjoy buying gifts and cards for valentines. I liked to surprise my wife with gifts and surprises at totally random times. To my way of thinking, Valentines was an obligation and expected. Not much of a surprise, and not particularly sincere or special if you have to do it to avoid getting into trouble.
Agreed, buying me a store bought card b/c society says you have to is nonsense. If you love me, tell me, or write your own letter. Purchasing someone else's words does not equal love. :P
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I briefly read here sometimes, it is the man cave.
Just nice to get a blokes perspective sometimes.
To think I thought my h loved getting me flowers and things on Valentines, gutted lol.
Please some guy tell me they liked to!!!!! any brave ones?
Restore me some faith or my next Valentine might end up in the toilet.
I dont want to be a man eater, I like nice, I like doors opened for me, I never forget to say thank you and I will never ever have casual sex, well I dont think I will lol, there is a better chance I wont, dont want to end up telling porkies so added that just in case.
Does the man of my dreams exist, I dont want a pretend one!!!!
To be fair I am still married but only just.
No offence guys I know its your thread, interesting though
x
Agree with the others; I didnt like it because I always felt like it was an expectation and the only reason to comply was to avoid the pissy attitude if I didn't! Plus its completely geared for women IMHO. I have always found that frivolous gifts like flowers and cards were a waste of money and candy is just junk. If you want to do something special, then just go on a date night or something special that BOTH of you enjoy!
Not sure what context you were using it but "Dream Man" ranks right up there with "soulmate" and "in love" to me. Might want to think about that!
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"I enjoy it'.."picking up something special so she feels special"...MeNow, you gotta 'she'? :D :D
I agree Mad H, Most men I know, including myself, felt it is/was 'burdensome' to come up with gifts almost each month for whatever holiday, birthday, etc.
I honestly don't know why it felt like this...other than....It was one of many things thrown in my face at BD although I never missed a ONE and actually bought her a gift each day of the month on our 10th anniversary month, which was hard but I did complain from time to time through the years as it seemed whatever I got was either rejected of sorts ( not really appreciated) or the old "you didn't have to" or "you just went out today and got that and didn't put thought into it"...It 'SEEMED" like a no win situation most of the time..
I understand it secures the women's mind to be 'doted upon', but at BD I remember telling my ex when she went on the 'gift' rant "wasn't me coming home every night and having kids with you buying a house and being a good family enough to show my love'??? (Guess not!, lol) and I also told her "why did I have to prove it through gifts??" ;D ;D
Anyhow...probably the first couple of years seems to be exciting in the gift giving, especially so I could secure myself with her.. ;D
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I'm a weirdo I guess as I used to love buying things and doing things for XW on special occasions and holidays. She works in an office full of women so getting a bouquet of flowers delivered at work gave her a huge boost as everyone would tell her how lucky she was. I guess she stopped believing them....
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What am I dreaming?
I dont know any more, my husband I guess but he spoilt himself big time.
Your going to crack up at this, Mel Gibson probably my type, but before he went mad too.
I think its the mischievous personality type and look what happens to them, I am not looking, safer to be on my own.
Looks attract you to a person initially but there has to be something else going on dont you think.
I liked Valentines, even if it is commercial, its nice to have a day to bring out the romance in people, a day to be special to each other, of course you can do that any day but life does get busy so its nice that a day brings it to our attention.
So a romantic hunk with a mischievous smile/grin not about to go into mlc please.
Someone that likes giving special gifts, a daisy from the grass will do just fine, its the thought.
Actually a daisy from the grass would be perfect, how romantic is that, would have to be delivered with the killer grin though.
I better stick with the dog, I am getting carried away here.
x
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I guess I'm a weirdo like Thunder.I enjoyed giving my wife gifts and I think I was pretty good at it. Not just for required occasions but occasionally I'd see something I thought she'd like and I'd just buy it for her. Plus I paid for all of the vehicles she drove and for the last 20 years they were all purchased new because she didn't like used. One year I did a twelve days of Christmas thing, giving her a present each of the twelve days leading up to Christmas. Doesn't look like it did me much good, does it? Still, one of the things she took from the house just before I was served with divorce papers was a four foot tall, 30 inches wide oak and glass display cabinet packed full of crystal and glass figurines such as teddy bears holding signs saying I love you and birds kissing that I had given her over the years.
Shortly after BD I gave her a huge bouquet of flowers to apologize for anything I may have done over the years. That's the only time I ever heard her say that I shouldn't have done it, but then she smiled, said they were beautiful, and gave me a hug.
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T and MBIB,
Your not a wierdo's first of all..Probably your 'wives' appreciated it with a smile every time..
My ex, I feel now, may have 'internally' never felt worthy of such 'showings'..I don't know..It usually wasn't 'oh joy!' when she received things from me..more like a "what did you do now' kinda response...
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Let me also add,
My ex never saw/experienced the 'gift giving attention' in her family (parents)....She came from an extremely broken one. I think she knew instinctively, or from commercials, books or other women that gifts represented something special but could not feel it.
Her parents never even wrapped their presents at Christmas..just laid them in a pile for each kid..She used to go over board on buying gifts and the wrapping (all the stocking stuff too!) when our kids were young...
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For me any gesture no matter how small was foreplay. Didn't matter what day it was on or what it was - anything to show that I was loved and cared for was all that was needed.
Offering to do the school run pretty much guaranteed that my H would get lucky. ;)
Some of us women aren't as complicated as you men think :P
Kia kaha - stay strong
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What am I dreaming?
Your going to crack up at this, Mel Gibson probably my type,
a romantic hunk with a mischievous smile/grin not about to go into mlc please.
Someone that likes giving special gifts, a daisy from the grass will do just fine, its the thought.
Actually a daisy from the grass would be perfect, how romantic is that, would have to be delivered with the killer grin though.
The guy of your dreams is a daisy-picking-hunk with a look on his face that suggests he might be up to no good…or Mel Gibson?…good luck with all that! :)
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What am I dreaming?
Your going to crack up at this, Mel Gibson probably my type,
a romantic hunk with a mischievous smile/grin not about to go into mlc please.
Someone that likes giving special gifts, a daisy from the grass will do just fine, its the thought.
Actually a daisy from the grass would be perfect, how romantic is that, would have to be delivered with the killer grin though.
The guy of your dreams is a daisy-picking-hunk with a look on his face that suggests he might be up to no good…or Mel Gibson?…good luck with all that! :)
I choked on my coffee, shot it out my nose and all over my monitor when I read that. Hilarious. I agree; good luck with that.
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New thread
http://mlcforum.theherosspouse.com/index.php?topic=6213.0