Midlife Crisis: Support for Left Behind Spouses
Archives => Archived Topics => Topic started by: a on August 23, 2015, 10:58:02 AM
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Hi All
Was curious and wanted to know if anyone on this forum knows of or has personal knowledge about the MLCer who married the OW and are any of these marriages heading for divorce?
It just seems when i see the people i work with who are in marriages which started as an affair relationship - usually with the Man being in his 40's when the affair started. I know of 4 couples who's marriages happened this way and they have been together for over 15+ years and seem pretty happy. There doesn't seem to be any trust issues and life is just continuing. Yes some are experiencing some of the effects of their affair - for example T's daughter has turned her back on him and both his son and daughter have an ugly pet name for the OW who has been his wife for 10+ years. But this does not seem to have impacted too negatively on T's relationship with his second wife - the OW.
When i see this it makes me wonder if all these theories about MLC are just that theories and the stats that go with these theories are just that stats - we all know we can find stats to prove or disprove anything we want.
maybe in life people get to a stage in their lives where every day feels like ground hog day and maybe to some of these people finding the excitement of an affair and new love is just that - they are trying to just mix it up a bit and jolt themselves out of ground hog day - after all we only have one life to live and maybe to them its about carpe deim - yes its creates havoc for the LBS but for them its what they feel they need to do to live life fully. And here we are as LBS's trying to figure it out when all we are suppose to do is accept that this chapter of our lives is over and we are to start a new one.
From where i am sitting marriages born of midlife affairs seem to be rather successful and the ex-MLCer seems quite content especially as all four MLCers married affair partners 15+ years younger. These men are now heading for their 60's with OW that are now in their 40's.
Just curious - what are your thoughts?
take care
moment
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Wow.....kind of a huge downer to point out, but valid nonetheless. I know of one relationship that started as an affair between a local cop who was moonlighting at a retail store as a security guard and one of the cashiers who was married with kids at the time. They just recently celebrated their 25th anniversary and posted an announcement with a pic in the local paper. I don't know the details but he's always seemed like a very nice guy and is well-liked. Funny thing is that the reason I know about it is that XW was working with them when the affair started and always spoke of their actions with disdain. How times change, sadly......
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If you search for stats on 2nd and 3rd marriages, I think you will find the articles over and over state that the divorce rate increases with the number of marriages....so I don't think that marriages that are the result of a midlife affair are successful...there are some that may be, but not the majority according to the stats.
Past statistics have shown that in the U.S. 50% percent of first marriages, 67% of second, and 73% of third marriages end in divorce https://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/the-intelligent-divorce/201202/the-high-failure-rate-second-and-third-marriages
Psychiatrist Gail Saltz stopped by the "Today" show Tuesday to talk about why so many second and third marriages end in divorce.
The failure rate is indeed high; in 2006, the U.S. Census Bureau found that 60 percent of second marriages and 73 percent of third marriages end in divorce.
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/03/06/second-third-marriages-divorce-rate_n_1324496.html
Over my many years specializing in family law, I have seen that second marriages have a higher failure rate than first marriages, and when you get to a third or fourth marriage, there is even a higher failure rate. Why is this the case? There are several reasons.http://www.familylawofmichigan.com/divorce/why-do-second-marriages-have-a-higher-rate-than-first-marriages
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All the people I know of and some stories I heard when I spoke to my driving instructor/random cab drivers etc. did not have the MLCer returning at all. We stand because of our belief that the marriage covenant is sacred/ love is sacred/ whatever other reason, and not because of some statistic.
It is my opinion that if the MLCer finds an acceptable OW/life or a better OW/life, he is gone for good (or at least a very very long time until that life turns bad). We see that most returners come back half-baked. I don't see that as a desire to be back but a sign of defeat, which they eventually come to accept and make the best of. If the other life had been good, it would have been sayonara. I know it's a very pessimistic view, but that's how I see it. Then there are others who have burnt their bridges so completely that there is no way they can return. In addition, even though they might eventually break up with/divorce the OW, it doesn't mean they will want to return. I remember mine telling me that he would rather live the rest of his life single or go through partners one after the other than continue with our relationship. And people are easy these days so if they are not fussy and out to have a good time, it can go on forever.
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It's all just more proof that each situation is different. For my xH, I based my standing on our prior relationship, the manner of his breakdown, and not any Vegas odds. Anecdotally I remember my parents having friends who were affair partners that stayed together for a long time, but were miserable. I ran into the wife's daughter once and she told me, "Mom finally divorced Robert" with a huge sigh of relief - but it essentially ate up her childhood in the meantime. I personally have never known any cheaters that lasted very long in their relationships, but this is really my first time through the MLC circus. Who knows? I may see more. None of it affects how I view my own situation.
We all have our reasons, and it's true that we can find evidence of whatever we want to see. There are no right or wrong perspectives if it's what feels like the best choice for us.
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l could go on forever with this topic bc it's such a complicated and long term thing l reckon.
First up though, l wonder if there's anything, or has anyone seen anything on how the LBS, actually do in life, love and marriage, after being left ?
Has anyone found anything on that ?
l've tried but haven't had much luck as yet .
But on the mlcer's, l don't know . How long is it before we know if it is even a successful marriage or not ?
l said to mt w at bd , you and me have been together nearly 20 yrs right.
And yep , in this last few , it's been rough and things have happened but that doesn't mean we can't turn the corner , we could have and we would have if given the chance.
But not every marriage was a good marriage at it's core and could turn that corner however l believe not every marriage has to be perfect. l believe it's the courage and conviction of the two people that in the end , make a marriage work and survive. But even so , still, not every marriage could have worked out though none the less.
Some couples are just not really suited and in those cases , if he or she got lucky enough to find someone else that they really were suited to after leaving , then who knows , maybe it does work.
But , most of them seem to trade down , mine has too . So you wouldn't think that has much hope long term would you ?
And the thing is , is 15 plus years enough to know ?
But no , it can't be can it . Because most of our marriages ended after 18,20, 25 yrs .
So they don't know what they have really , until they have at least passed the time frame and then some , of their first marriage.
So in reality , we'll probably be all old and grey before we really truly know what becomes of our mlcers bc these days , even 16yrs doesn't makath a successful marriage .
And here is my very own real life example.
l met my first serious long term gf in my 20s. l had lots of gf's before that, 1 yr , 2 yrs, but this one lasted 6 yrs and we moved in together a few mths after we met.
But although l did love her and l think she loved me , we were always fighting , we didn't really have very much in common apart from sex , and we didn't really get along very well truth be known.
And after 6yrs l knew l had to either get out of it or marry her.
So l chose to get out of it .
But that wasn't easy. l had huge guilt from splitting us up and l did love her and so leaving that , was not easy , no way , it was the hardest thing l'd ever done to date in my life and l was depressed and miserable for 12mths or so. But l stuck to it because l just felt we were basically just so unsuited and love and sex just wasn't enough it seemed. We did definitely have something though there was no doubt about that but , we still fort like cat and dog and seem to think differently about everything BUT , we did have something , for sure.
And if you didn't mind having a few fights , l am pretty sure even to this day , we could have survived and made it work long term.
So after 15mths , l got lucky and l met my wife. She was everything l could ever hope for. She was gorgeous , fun , funny and had a great sense of humor , she was broadminded and wanted to do all these things l'd always wanted to do and we could talk and laugh and play all night all day on and on .
We had yrs and yrs of just incredible life together . We moved in a mth after we met. Then we went and traveled for 10yrs , lived all over the country , there was so much to us it was almost too much to cope with .
But , here l am . 21yrs later now and we still ended up splitting up after 19yrs. She's with an om , or was , or is, l dunno these days it seems on off.
And l still see her in coming and goings with my d and we have still worked together as best we can for my d. So l probably see a bit more of mine than most people and it's on a different level.
And l see enough to know , she isn't now , what we were. She is a totally different person . l don't see coming and going , any of those special things in her personality now that use to just beam out at you , coming through in her now and that is just so sad. But it must also mean that om just doesn't bring that out in her , she's soooo different. And she's serious, and cynical , and often sarcastic. Not at me l'm saying , just in the way she is and talks these days . She isn't herself , not the one l knew anyway.
So where are they and what becomes of them in 20yrs time . who knows but knowing her true personality all those yrs through thick and thin, l hope she doesn't marry this guys for her. Because he just doesn't seem to be bring out the real her and all she has to offer people around her and that is just really really sad to see.
But there's one thing l know . lf w had that courage and conviction, that staying power , we wouldn't have split up . But she was tired and she became weak and she took the easy way out.
Where as that first one , she was tough , very very strong and held a very very strong conviction about a lot of things no matter what. lt's just how she was built .
We weren't perfect , like wife and me but , here l am and wife and me are no more because one of us didn't have that courage and conviction.
So, who knows , maybe the first one would still be here . Bumpy roads but still here .
And sadly , she never did marry and she never had kids but you know what . Knowing the way she ticked , and learning here at HS about standing and how it works , l have often suspected that that is why she has never married . Because going on her nature and strengths , it really wouldn't surprise me one bit , if she just couldn't after us and has maybe even subconsciously been standing all this time.
So this has turned into a bit of a rant , sorry about that . But how can we know where anything goes unless we have a spare 30yrs to wait and see.
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So they don't know what they have really , until they have at least passed the time frame and then some , of their first marriage.
I don't think it's as much about length of time as it is general compatibility. Example - my dad. 26 years of an awful marriage with my mother brought his tolerance level for crap way down. Dated #2 for 3 years, left just after the 3 year mark of marriage - so 6 years was it. The good times were over. Tack on two more years for the divorce drama. But still nowhere near the length of time he was willing to put in with #1 before calling it quits.
But that's not to say that I think they won't last. If they are both broken people in the same way, as we know MLCers and OPs tend to be at least during crisis - it will be a good match for as long as it is. Or if they're too tired to keep running, they may just settle. There really is no way to know, and certainly, we can lose a lot of life watching the clock.
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I have two situations very close to me where the female MLCer married OM. Neither lasted.
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A friend who had MLC more than 10 years ago married OW, had children with her (twins) and divorced her pretty quick. He says that the two years he spend married to OW were the worst years of his life.
He tried to go back to his LBS, with whom he has a daughter, but she had moved on and wanted nothing to do with him.
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He tried to go back to his LBS, with whom he has a daughter, but she had moved on and wanted nothing to do with him.
I hear this from what I now know are LBS's on a fairly regular basis. The truth is that most people do not tolerate infidelity, and just move on. I know that will be me if my H gets an OW. Not to put too fine a point on it, but the average person with good self esteem would not tolerate the monster, either, unless they know about MLC.
On the up side (that sounds weird to call it an up side when people divorce), I have one of my off road friends whose wife was the MLCer. It lasted 3 years and she is in the process of divorce. He would take her back, but his 6 children swear they would find a way to stop it.
I have another friend who was the MLCer. She is only with her OM because they have an autistic child, and would go back to her original H in a heartbeat if he would have her, but he won't.
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The truth is that most people do not tolerate infidelity, and just move on. I know that will be me if my H gets an OW.
True. But many people would tolerate infidelity if it was just that. That is, the cheating spouse would, after infidelity being discovered, be willing to commint to the marriage, etc.
But MLCer do not do it. They leave to be with OW (or live on their own but keep a relationship with OW). So it makes things much, much more difficult.
Not to put too fine a point on it, but the average person with good self esteem would not tolerate the monster, either, unless they know about MLC.
LBS who know about MLC don't exactly tolerate monster. We impose boundaries and several of us do not have interactions with our MLCer.
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I know of one such situation and they have been married for over 30 years but OW has molded herself to his every whim. His interests are hers, or she at least waits patiently on the sidelines while he pursues them. His former wife would not have had him back anyway and their kids are much closer to her. Youngest daughter gets a stress rash whenever she is due to visit dad and 2nd wife. However, they post on FB about their good Christian works and "family".
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Yup, some OW can take a lot of $h!te like me (MLC craziness included) and so the relationship, even though not ideal, lasts for years. Don't hold your breath.
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Logically speaking , you would think both would do more and go through more to keep it together 2nd time round.
Bc one , it's their second time and they'd know there ain't many chances left but 2ndly maybe they learned a lot from their first marriage and, also lost a bit of selfishness - but l dunno.
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I know of one such situation and they have been married for over 30 years but OW has molded herself to his every whim. His interests are hers, or she at least waits patiently on the sidelines while he pursues them.
My IC told me that my H's R with the OW would last only if it was a "balanced dependency"--those couples who cling to each other & do everything together. He didn't see my H as the kind of person who would tolerate that & he always contended that their R would fall apart. This always gave me a lot of hope. I just didn't realize at first that he wasn't putting a time frame on it. When I learned about MLC, I learned that MLC takes a very long time & that H's "new life" could last far longer than I realized & that my IC suggested.
I have two friends whose H's had affairs when my friends were in their 30's, their H's in their 40's. Both families had young kids. The AP's were readily available types--one the family babysitter (D'ed with her own kids), the other an intern at work. Both LBS's were blindsided. Look very much like MLC situations, but I wasn't in on all the details at the time. From my little knowledge of both H's, they were both arrogant leaning toward being @$$holes on a good day. I don't know if they had what we know as the other MLC symptoms.
Both are M'ed to their AP's to this day, both for over 20-25 years. One had another child with the OW/new W. The other primarily raised his OW/W's kids; his own visited, but were resistant, now have pictures of their large blended family (with grandkids) on FB.
I think this is a very individual thing & none of this statistical info (XYZ's statistics are pretty consistent with what you read about 2nd M's) or anecdotal info really informs us about our own situations. I think the two cases I mentioned lasted because the people were young enough to just fling themselves into recreating a second family life. They were compatible enough with their 2nd spouse to make it work. Or maybe they had the "balanced dependency" my IC talked about or the OW was so needy that she subsumed herself into her "prize" of a H, as bipolared described.
What I see here with the MLCer's at the far end of the age range (mine 59 at BD) & there seem to be a good number of them here, despite it being somewhat out of the previously accepted midlife range, is that they are fantasizing about having a second chance, but time is cruel & they just don't have enough time to recreate what they long for.
Mine said at BD that he & the OW were "a team, like we had been a team when we were first M'ed". At 59, after 39 years of M to me, how could he recreate a whole second long-term M? He was feeling the "high" of "new love" & exhilaration that we had early in our lives, but where does that have to go? My H is at the end of his career, facing potential health issues which grow closer every year, facing a retirement he is not suited to handle, with an OW eleven years younger who is still striving in her career & recently made a job change that takes her away from home all week, to return to my H on weekends.
I don't see them building a new second life at this stage. But perhaps they will muddle along, IDK. Over 2 1/2 years post-BD, he felt certain enough to pursue his D. Statistics do me no good. Anecdotal "evidence" does me no good. I can only live each day as it comes. Make choices for my life based on my needs & desires. I cannot look to him & his "new R" for any answers. That is his problem, not mine.
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I don't see them building a new second life at this stage. But perhaps they will muddle along, IDK. Over 2 1/2 years post-BD, he felt certain enough to pursue his D. Statistics do me no good. Anecdotal "evidence" does me no good. I can only live each day as it comes. Make choices for my life based on my needs & desires. I cannot look to him & his "new R" for any answers. That is his problem, not mine.
Statistics are fine only to a point. So 60% of second marriages fail. That means 40% do not. But those statistics do not tell us if MLC is involved, and they do not tell us if the couple is actually happy. Some people do stay with their chosen person from a sense of obligation. Anecdotal evidence is also good only to a point. Both can be used to convince ourselves of one thing or another.
Ultimately, we cannot predict what any of them will do, much as we wish we could. What matters is us. What do we want? How do we choose to live our lives?
I don't care about his R with OW. I've seen her in action, and I'm not impressed. If that's what he wants, then I lave less respect from him than I used to (if that's possible). But it takes time to reach such a place.
So again, it's not a out them, it's about us and what we want. It's about our healing and our growth, and I don't think we can fully get to where we want to be until we stop worrying about what they may or may not do and focus on ourselves.
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This all falls into the category, of "reading bad books." You can not begin to write the next chapter of YOUR book if you keep re-reading the old ones, or trying to read and write other people's books!
Two insights that might help. My therapist told me at Bday that she has seen lots of these and the pattern is generally that he will come to his senses FAST--within six months--or he will start to reflect after his THIRD failed relationship. She said that when men move on that fast and that quickly, it is not likely to work out the way they expect it, but they still blame the other person, and they think after the second one that if they only picked better, all their problems will go. Then after the third one, most figure out it might be something in themselves. Of course, you have to read this on the standard curve, some learn FAST, some might learn after the second, more will learn after the third, and then there are...
My kids attended an NFL football game in a private box, with two of the Jonas brother, actually, and a lot of other bigwigs. My youngest son was, maybe 14 at the time, and he overheard two men talking. One said, look at us, we have all been married, what two, three, Joe over there is on his fifth wife, every one younger, and we're all miserable and none of us are getting laid... So, some, unfortunately, may be like Joe and live at the VERY FAR END of the curve. There really is no way to know.
You have to decide if you are really that interested in those other books, or if you might just want to start writing yours. Just a thought, ll
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A few thoughts.
Moment, I believe the statistics xyzch has referenced, I'm living proof. 2nd marriage..divorced ...60%.
My first M was bad but my second was good. Still happened.
About men being happier with a ow 15+ years younger. It could very well be these younger women make them feel good, feel younger. That can be very powerful stuff.
Ready2, yes if you get 2 broken people how are the odds it will work?
Medusa, Good point. 40% of them do make it. When you think about it that's almost half. So the odds could go either way.
hawk, you're also right. Not every marriage is good to the core. That may be why so many really ARE happier with someone else. You knew that relationship wouldn't last and you had the strength to break it off.
LisaLives, when I hear about men (or women for that matter) who go from one to the other never figuring it out I feel sorry for them. It's like they are chasing rainbows but never understand it's them.
Offroad, I agree there maybe would be a higher percentage of MICer's who return but their spouse has moved on. So they may feel this is all they have and try to make it work.
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Normal people work on self and marriage and grow together. Normal people does not do things behind spouse back, normal people does not cheat on spouse. Those people who do in middle age are MLCers, their marriage with OM/OW would fail 100%, just matter of time.
Statistics said that people divorce in huge percentage in first 3 to max 7 years. How marriage years going high, divorce percentage fall dramatically. Have logic. No need to explain.
So, those people who divorce in middle age and remarried and live more then 15 years in second marriage could be only people who were left in middle age by MLCers. So, LBS-es who move forward and learn, become better version of self. Even those cases are very rare in my opinion. Remember best man and woman are in marriages, who You can find on "market" appropriate age who aren't broken ? Widowers and MLCers, never married people, LNSes who standing ...
So, frankly I do not believe in happy second marriages. Divorce rate of second marriage is double in comparison with first, and 3rth is quadruple... So ?
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Hi
Thank you for your replies - I have come to realise just as there are many differing points of view on this topic so there are a myriad possibilities for the MLCer's marriage to OW. I guess none of us will ever know the dynamics or the outcome of our MLCer's marriage to OW. I guess then this begs the next question - why do LBs's seek comfort in the stats that say MLCer will divorce OW or that their R is miserable? What kind of comfort/hope are we seeking? and even if we don't want MLCer back why do we want them to suffer?
Maybe the ultimate work we need to do is truly forgive and let go - and possibly even wish happiness for the MLCer but it is such a hard thing to do isn't it - when this person who you loved could not, in the end, reciprocate this love. And because of the enormous pain and suffering they have caused we want justice - and for us justice means suffering and pain for both the MLCer and OW. I look forward to the day when i can truly let go and i look forward to the day when i no longer have any thoughts of my Ex.
As for these 4 couples i have witnessed. I do believe that marrying young creates a false perception that they still have a long life to live and also in part they have a wife who will be young enough and therefore strong enough to take care of them when the time comes.
take care moment
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The good thing is that none of the "letting go" has to be done all at once. We can work through the grief process over this crap and come out the other end with more positive feelings. We really don't have to "wish them the best" - but we can at least not have hate or bitterness. Focusing on our own lives and not being concerned with them is in many ways the best thing to shoot for. Will give us a very neutral place to make decisions from if they do ever emerge from the unicorn tunnel. ;) But it's easier said than done, especially for most of us who still have some connection with them in the form of kids, property, legal battles, and clinging boomerang actions.
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I guess then this begs the next question - why do LBs's seek comfort in the stats that say MLCer will divorce OW or that their R is miserable? What kind of comfort/hope are we seeking? and even if we don't want MLCer back why do we want them to suffer?
The stats may provide hope to some that the relationship will fail and they will try to come back. Or it may be plain old vengeance. They hurt us and some primeval part of us wants them to hurt as much as we did. Plus, them actually being happy with the OP is another rejection of us.
Moment, forgiveness is a choice. It is for us. We must decide how long we want to haul around the pain, shame, and other emotions associated with what they've done for us. We forgive when we are ready, when we no longer need those emotions.
Letting go is hard, and you may never reach the place where you don't think of him, especially when kids are involved. You learn to accept it for what it is and, one day, you realize it doesn't hurt, anymore.
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moment- I guess then this begs the next question - why do LBs's seek comfort in the stats that say MLCer will divorce OW or that their R is miserable? What kind of comfort/hope are we seeking? and even if we don't want MLCer back why do we want them to suffer?
You're kidding, right?
I think every one of us have suffered a lot and it's maybe just human nature to wish they, at some point, experience the pain we have felt. Or at least SOME pain.
Just so they feel some of what we felt.
I would never wish real pain on my X, I care about him too much, but I sure don't wish he ends up happier than me. That would be like pouring salt on an open wound. :-\
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moment- I guess then this begs the next question - why do LBs's seek comfort in the stats that say MLCer will divorce OW or that their R is miserable? What kind of comfort/hope are we seeking? and even if we don't want MLCer back why do we want them to suffer?
You're kidding, right?
Thunder,
Took the words right out of my mouth. I have never understood LBS's who say something like "I just want my MLCer to come through the tunnel & heal & have a good life (despite not returning home). I just don't get that. There wasn't anything wrong with me; there wasn't anything wrong with our M, certainly nothing wrong enough that justified infidelity, pretending all was well, & walking out the door 10 minutes after BD to live with an OW. Why would I wish him well after that? I want justice. Justice would be him smashing headfirst into the rocks, picking himself up, & trudging home to honestly try to repair the damage he has done to himself, to me, & to our family. Even with that best-case scenario, forgiveness isn't a cake walk.
Why would I wish him well in his "new life" with his "new R"? I don't know if my H will ever want to return home or not, but the part of MLC lore that I do believe with all of my heart is that my MLCer H will NOT have a good life if he stays on the path he is on. He is lost; he is empty; he is in a R with another broken person, an opportunistic, hypocritical alienator. How does he heal on this path? Why waste my breath, thought, spirit wishing him well on this path?
I haven't reached a place of forgiveness yet (2 1/2 years after BD), especially one month after my crappy D settlement. If he sincerely wanted to heal our M, I would be there. And I believe I'll get there no matter what, in probably more of a "it's been so long, I've healed myself, yeah I guess I really do forgive him" sort of a way. Sort of forgiveness by default. If we just say we forgive them because we think it is expected or something we have to do for ourselves to move on, I'm not sure how genuine that is. I think forgiveness comes when we do all of those things to take care of ourselves, heal ourselves, strengthen ourselves, & love ourselves. Then, we realize that yes, we have forgiven. I don't think though that forgiveness requires that we "wish them well" while they're stuck in the MLC mud heading nowhere but down.
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From the time I learned about my MLCer marrying the OM, I kept this simple little piece from RCR's article Woman Scorned part II in my mind.
The Titanic needed no assistance
I spent no time wondering why I had been "chosen" over. I understood how the OM played into the regression......and in the case of my MLCer, it was stunningly obvious. I sometimes told people, as boastful as it sounded, the OM couldn't hold a candle to me......and if their "relationship" lasted, so be it.....it wasn't because of anything I was or wasn't.
I've seen the movie Titanic. It sinks. Every. Single. Time.
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I guess then this begs the next question - why do LBs's seek comfort in the stats that say MLCer will divorce OW or that their R is miserable? What kind of comfort/hope are we seeking? and even if we don't want MLCer back why do we want them to suffer?
What kind of comfort are we seeking? The comfort that says it wasn't us, that the MLCers really are broken. The comfort that says the OP really wasn't a better fit for our MLCer than we were. The comfort that tells us that moving forward is the right thing, since our MLCer is STILL not happy, and there really was nothing we could do about it.
It isn't about our MLCer suffering, it's one more thing that shows us that our work is about us, it's not about them.
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I've seen the movie Titanic. It sinks. Every. Single. Time.
Which is why I've never actually seen the movie in its entirety.
I know what happens. :P
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Hi
Thank you for your replies - I have come to realise just as there are many differing points of view on this topic so there are a myriad possibilities for the MLCer's marriage to OW. I guess none of us will ever know the dynamics or the outcome of our MLCer's marriage to OW. I guess then this begs the next question - why do LBs's seek comfort in the stats that say MLCer will divorce OW or that their R is miserable? What kind of comfort/hope are we seeking? and even if we don't want MLCer back why do we want them to suffer?
take care moment
I think it is purely because we are so upset still, that we've been dumped like that and so of course we do not wish anybody to be happy in the beginning stages of this crises ..
And of course we also would justice!! and if that means that him and her break up -that is done ..!! Because a relationship that is built out of lies ,deceit and unhappiness can only fail ...if it does,it is just a validation again and so within the LBS- Again it's just verification and justification that something like this will get punished and will never work ..
I know it is basic human emotions and it's wrong and as Christians were supposed to forgive and I think this will come later toO.. But myself: I admit I'm not there yet ...and of course I don't want to see my husband and her being ever able to build a successful relationship !! :o
because that would mean that he was "right" leaving me with our marriage (in his eyes)..that our marriage was "wrong"...
And of course he did it the wrong way but it would feel (in that moment) that in the long run it was "worth it" -and you don't want something like this to be worth it !!
Because all of our hopes and dreams in our marriage shattered the moment this crisis hit ..
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I don't have enough hindsight to say about this divorce. I know the ex did intend to marry the exow but decided not too.
I have a first marriage story though:
Both of us were young. Lived together 3 years ..married 3 years..short version.
He had an affair and divorced me. I thought it was the end of the world. He would change with her. Be everything I needed him to be. She would take my place. Have all the things I should have had.
I tried everything. Threatened, begged, cried ( that's how I knew it wouldn't work this time)
They got married. They had a daughter.
About 5 years later this is how it turned out.
His company went out of the country to start manufacturing.
He started a whole other family there.
She only found out when the credit card bill came and there were baby clothes charged on it.
She had him served when he got off the plane the next time he came home.
He didn't change he only got worse..
I'm glad I was me rather than her.
I can relate to wanting them to suffer the same if not worse pain than we have. They say the best revenge is a life well lived. I look at it sometimes as the rest of their lives will be their repayment.
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Remember best man and woman are in marriages, who You can find on "market" appropriate age who aren't broken ?
This is why, after my wife gets her divorce, I'm going looking for a 21yo. One of the reasons. ;D
My therapist asked me today if I would want my wife to be healed even if she chose not to come back to me after she was healed. I couldn't answer the question because I couldn't imagine her being healed and not wanting to be with me because I know what we had and if she were healed and didn't want that back what we had couldn't have been real.
When I was young I startled a friend's dog and it bit me. I didn't feel like I needed to forgive the dog because I knew it was a dog and that's what dog's do. If my wife is going through an MLC then what she's doing is what people who are going through a crisis do so what is there to forgive? If she wasn't going through a crisis then I know that it would be very difficult for me to forgive her. I'm not sure if I ever would.
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Remember best man and woman are in marriages, who You can find on "market" appropriate age who aren't broken ?
This is why, after my wife gets her divorce, I'm going looking for a 21yo. One of the reasons. ;D
Did you miss the part where Albatross said "appropriate" age? ;) What makes you think a 21 year old who wants someone so much older isn't "broken", too? ??? OK, so maybe I'm jellin' a little. I don't have enough money to be a proper cougar....
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Love and marriage is a choice. It's not about the perfect person. There are so many women who are better than me, as there are as many men who are better than my MLCer. There are many men who are rich, responsible, do the cooking/laundry whatever, dote on their children, worship their wife, {insert whatever virtues your MLCer had}, and vice versa. Our spouses are replaceable if we choose to replace them. But we don't. Sadly, that is what our MLCers have chosen to do. And sadly many do not return because in the hands of a weak person, we are in fact replaceable.
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Did you miss the part where Albatross said "appropriate" age? ;) What makes you think a 21 year old who wants someone so much older isn't "broken", too? ???
I was afraid somebody would point out the flaw in my plan. :(
OTOH, if the choice is between a broken 21yo woman or a broken women my age ...
Seriously, I asked my therapist a while ago if there was something wrong with me because I seem to be attracted to and relate better to young women (early 20s) than women my own age. I wonder sometimes if my MLT was really an MLC and I'm still in the tunnel. :o
But my therapist said she thinks I'm normal. There's a surprise. She told me that it's not surprising that I would relate well to younger women because I spend most of my days working with young people and because GD14 and I spend a lot of time together. And, I prefer fit, active women because I am fit and active myself and it's usually fit, attractive younger women who I talk with at the races I run because there are so many of them. And why wouldn't they be attracted to a 56yo man who has a real job, doesn't live in his parent's basement, and can run a sub 22 minute 5K? And did I mention that I drive a beautiful, manual shift Mustang? :D
Also, unfortunately, where I live, most of the women my age get their exercise by retrieving the potato chip bag from the pantry. OTOH, in NYC last week I noticed that fit, attractive women do come in all age groups. In fact, I noticed a bunch of times. :D
OffRoad, I think a woman with your knowledge of cars and all things mechanical wouldn't need much money to be a proper cougar. :)
A friend of mine went out with a 21yo woman (girl?) after his divorce. He was in his early forties at the time. I asked him what happened after he quit seeing her. He said they had a great relationship until she opened her mouth and started to talk. ;D
Those of you who are offended by this topic will probably be pleased to know that I fell during my last race and badly scraped my knee and I am in excruciating pain now after accidentally pushing my laptop computer against it. :(
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My M to H (27 years now) is second marriage for both of us.
I married my first H after 8 years of courtship but it was a weekend R where I was away at uni and then my first job for 6 of those years and it was parental pressure that created the need to marry. Within 6 months we both knew it wasn't right. I had met H socially at this point but nothing was going on simply because H was in the process of separating from his first wife because he had cheated on her.
He was broken when we met and still legally married. I was married when we met and within 6 months of meeting H - we were together and I had pulled the plug on my first R.
H and I have been together 29 years; We have our wonderful children. Does his MLC mean that it was all wrong? That at some point we were doomed to failure because it was a second marriage and he was broken when we met? I don't think so but then again perhaps I was naive to think that he wouldn't cheat on me either. I believed in the soulmate principle. I believed that we were meant to be together. Now that is naive.
I failed to see that I was not whole myself and nor was he. Perhaps both of us pushed our reality checks away but because H had more FOO issues and is most definitely an ostrich when things get bad - he was "destined " to have a crisis.
What is sad is that I see young friends of mine getting married and they look so happy and what is at the back of my mind? The thought that it may not last and will he or she have an MLC later down the road?
Three of my colleagues at my workplace have endured an MLC - all three have sought divorce. Two have been final for some time and one is in mediation. All three do not get MLC - much as I recommend the forum. All three women are slightly bitter. The two divorced MLCers are still with their AP but neither have re-married. The 2 divorced LBSers - one has a new partner and the other is not interested in a long term R but likes the occasional date.
The interesting thing about these ladies is that they see no reason to change for themselves. They scoffed when I asked how they had changed with comments like - " He left me - we were fine. It was not my doing - why should I change? It was his problem and he can deal with it!"
This is the core of the issue - people change and change changes people. It's how you handle the change that determines how good your change is!
So will your MLCer marry the OP? Will it last? Will they be happy /unhappy?
Who knows?
Live your life for you and not through your MLCer.
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Those of you who are offended by this topic will probably be pleased to know that I fell during my last race and badly scraped my knee and I am in excruciating pain now after accidentally pushing my laptop computer against it. :(
That worked out conveniently since none of us "old broads" were there to punch you in the arm for your stereotypes ??? ::) ;) .
Seriously, I asked my therapist a while ago if there was something wrong with me because I seem to be attracted to and relate better to young women (early 20s) than women my own age.
But my therapist said she thinks I'm normal. There's a surprise. She told me that it's not surprising that I would relate well to younger women because I spend most of my days working with young people and because GD14 and I spend a lot of time together.
But I have my own stereotypes & that is why I am not looking for anyone new until I move to a more progressive place. If I remember correctly, we live in neighboring states, MBIB, & the older men here are into narrow-minded religion & reactionary politics, not to even get into the rates of smoking, diabetes, & heart disease here.
I love spending time with my sons & their friends. I love their musical tastes, their willingness to try new things, their tolerance of human differences, their sense of humor, & truth be told, just the energy which has contrasted with my sadness & sense of loss.
But I don't want a young man; I want "an appropriately aged" man who is healthy & open-minded & was alive when Kennedy was shot & listened to "classic" rock on a transistor radio under the stars. What I really want is my H, so in all reality, I still have some work to do on myself before I look for anyone.
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Have to agree with HT. IF I meet someone I would like them to be the same age or a bit older than me.
And that's NOT the ex.
As to getting married again? Probably not. I'm starting to enjoy my freedom.
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Those of you who are offended by this topic will probably be pleased to know that I fell during my last race and badly scraped my knee and I am in excruciating pain now after accidentally pushing my laptop computer against it. :(
That worked out conveniently since none of us "old broads" were there to punch you in the arm for your stereotypes ??? ::) ;) .
uhm, no HT, who do you think tripped him ;-)... When my exH had a heart attack right after BD (trying to keep up with the 15 year younger woman, who actually does not like sex, but loves hip-hop concerts). I was freaked out and told my friend "Pastor B" and a couple others that in my pain and bitterness, I had wished for that to happen and I felt so terrible. Pastor B said, oh ll, you are NOT that powerful, as she shook her head and looked at me sadly. Then she got a wry smile and motioned around the room, and said, unfortunately, the collective rest of us ARE, so don't you worry, you don't own this. Be careful MBIB, us old broads are very powerful...
But, no, in reality, of course you are attracted to young women, as we are attracted to young men. And you could land yourself dozens of them, for all the wrong reasons. But in ten years when your running legs give out and the spare tire starts to form and your skin sags, and you start to have other mysterious ailments, my doctor calls "seasons of aging." Do you REALLY think that 35yo is going to stay by your side? Can you say H-E to the double L NO. Even we, us collective old broads kind of weigh Rs really hard knowing that we are going to live longer, so how much do we WANT to take care of this prospect--also knowing that men generally SUCK to take care of. I would rather take care of ALL my women friends than one of most of the men I know... And it's a HUGE factor in a lot of MLCers wanting to come back too, I think. When they realize that sad reality--WHO will take care of their flat sagging butts? It ain't going to be the cute nurse with the perky rack unless you can still pay her really well and she has time off to have her real life "on the side."
Plus, don't forget a lot of those hot babes want real babes and I get a super kick out of going places and watching the miserable MLC men with their young families... It's schadenfreude, sure, but it was their choice, the fact that I get to see it is just a consequence...
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This is interesting because I havent been attracted to younger men for the exact same reason as your friend, MBIB. They kind of lose their "allure" when they start to speak. ;D
Even when I was in Uni, there were lots of fit athletic men around as I sailed and played sport but the guys I was most attracted to were geeks with a weird sense of humor. 8) coursework was a breeze when they were in study group. ;D "brains are the new sexy" kind girl I guess.
A. Good set of forearms didn't hurt of course!
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Why would anyone want a younger man? They don't have staying power, they don't have "experience" and they tend to be selfish.
How do I know? I've got a girlfriend who has been single forever. She goes through men like water. Love her, but she is $lutty. Anyway, she shares her "adventures" with me. She has gotten over being with younger men because they bore her and, according to her, are very selfish in bed. She once told me, don't be like me and get caught up in the flattery that a younger guy wants you. It's all about him.
The interesting thing about these ladies is that they see no reason to change for themselves. They scoffed when I asked how they had changed with comments like - " He left me - we were fine. It was not my doing - why should I change? It was his problem and he can deal with it!"
This is the core of the issue - people change and change changes people. It's how you handle the change that determines how good your change is!
So will your MLCer marry the OP? Will it last? Will they be happy /unhappy?
Who knows?
Live your life for you and not through your MLCer.
This is it exactly. All of us have things we can change, and we've been given a golden opportunity to do so.
And for me, whether they marry, are happy or miserable ultimately makes no difference.
I'm happy. That's really all that matters.
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Why would anyone want a younger man? They don't have staying power, they don't have "experience" and they tend to be selfish.
They don't have staying power??? I beg to differ with you on this one Medusa. ;D
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Why would anyone want a younger man? They don't have staying power, they don't have "experience" and they tend to be selfish.
They don't have staying power??? I beg to differ with you on this one Medusa. ;D
This thread has gone to a WHOLE other place! But remember, old men have pills now that can give them up to four hours before you have to worry...
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We can blame it on MyBrain. ;D
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Well personally I haven't ever been with a much younger man.
I think what's being said is true about them more than likely being selfish..staying power???..well..depends on what kind of control they have over themselves and not respond "prematurely"I suppose.
I agree. Let's blame it on MyBrain.
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In It,
It's funny, the only man I was with who was my age was my 1st H.
I dated and married men younger then me since then.
I don't think it's has anything to do with looks or their youth it's more what we had in common. I just relate to younger guys better. I have more in common with them. Taste in music, things I like to do (camping, hiking, biking, etc.). Most men my age would never consider sleeping on the ground in a tent. ???
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Why would anyone want a younger man? They don't have staying power, they don't have "experience" and they tend to be selfish.
They don't have staying power??? I beg to differ with you on this one Medusa. ;D
Hey, I'm going from memory, and that was a long, long time ago.
My more recent memories tell me that an older gentleman who is notdrugged has significant control. For him it was not about the end result but everything leading up to that result.
Oh, and he cared about me and what I got out of it. Time after time after time after time... :P
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I agree. Let's blame it on MyBrain.
I readily accept the blame since this has been a very interesting conversation.
Why would anyone want a younger man? They don't have staying power, they don't have "experience" and they tend to be selfish.
Thanks for several more reasons why the younger women should prefer an older man. :D
My wife's mother was married to a man who was more than 20 years older than her. It wasn't an MLC situation. She was divorced from her abusive husband (w's father) and he was a widower. They were very happy together, he remained very active until shortly before he died in his late 70s, and it was the best relationship she ever had. A few years later she had her final relationship with a man who was closer to her own age and he was a selfish, arrogant jerk.
I don't think it's has anything to do with looks or their youth it's more what we had in common. I just relate to younger guys better. I have more in common with them. Taste in music, things I like to do (camping, hiking, biking, etc.). Most men my age would never consider sleeping on the ground in a tent. ???
I think this pretty much sums it up. Thunder and i seem to have a lot in common. ;D
Some of the music I like is even a little too progressive for GD14. And I'm 56yo and have been camping in a tent 3 times so far this year. I prefer our 30 foot camper but my wife has the truck and I refuse to ask to borrow it so the tent is fine. I didn't sleep on the ground, though, I used an air mattress.
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An air mattress is ok too. I use a foam mat.
It's just when I was on that dating site eons ago men my age would say..oh heavens no, I packed my camping gear away years ago. I prefer motels now.
:-\ Idios
MB, I actually do see a lot of older women who stay very active and look great.
I know this will not sit well with some guys but I do think men age faster than women. Not always but that's just been my observation.
BUT men look better than women do when they age. I think older men are pretty handsome most of the time. Gray hair and all.
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I'm reminded of my neighbor across the street that I've visited with a lot over the last 4 years. I knew her H wasn't her first husband, but I didn't realize the details of how they met until after he passed away in 2012.
She is 82 now, so around 79 back then. He died at 97. They had been together 10 years! - met when she was visiting her late mother in the old folks' home and he was also a resident. They were married within just a few months. He'd been married 60 years to his first wife, and she hadn't been gone that long. The kids were almost her age and VERY skeptical of her motives - he had a good chunk of change from all that work he'd done in the 1920's in the oil fields of Texas! She'd been widowed in the 1970s but the neighbors say she had a long term boyfriend for a few decades, but she attested that this guy was really the love of her life. She cared for him in-home when he was completely riddled with Alzheimer's for as long as she could, so I can only use that as a gauge that yes, her devotion was very real.
But the reason I bring it up is that while she and I would talk after Hoss left, there was an MLC guy (father of one of my junior high friends! ICK) who would ride over on his motorcycle with his ear ring and creepiness and want to "talk" to me about how his divorce was almost through! I was NOT interested, but of course the neighbors noticed and this woman said to me once, "You ought to keep him in mind! Just because he's older doesn't matter - look at me and John!". I guess I learned then that "old" isn't an age group - that a 79 year old and 97 year old can still be considered a May/December romance. ;D ;D ;D And she assured me, "They said he was imPOtent, but let me tell you, he was NOT imPOtent!" (emphasis hers).
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May-December relationships have at least an 11-year age span between the parties. The vast majority of May-December marriages take place between older men and younger women. According to the most recent U.S. census, 7.4 percent of husbands are 10 or more years older than their wives.
But that trend is starting to change. A 2003 AARP report, “Lifestyles, Dating and Romance,” found that 8 percent of women older than 39 were dating men at least 10 years younger.
Read more here: http://www.sanluisobispo.com/2014/07/29/3172036_may-december-romance-rules.html?rh=1
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It's funny, the only man I was with who was my age was my 1st H.
I dated and married men younger then me since then.
I don't think it's has anything to do with looks or their youth it's more what we had in common. I just relate to younger guys better. I have more in common with them. Taste in music, things I like to do (camping, hiking, biking, etc.). Most men my age would never consider sleeping on the ground in a tent. ???
Ding, ding, ding. We have a winner here. I'm not "fit" in the visual sense, but I can still hike a mean Grand Canyon, do 50 situps each day and swim the rough water. I have a heard time finding friends to keep up, especially in my age group. (It's really tough because they look at me and don't think I'm as able as I am)
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If I may go back to original poll question... I am certain now that my MLCer had a secret affair with OW (10 or 15 years younger) while still married to me. She dumped him after awhile. He was crying, out of his mind with grief- of course, I had no clue why he was so devasted, because he was still lying about the affair. I am also certain she was not the only one. There were others. Still, even if he was unhappy with OW, he decided to divorce me. So, the fact that he didn't found happiness in other R didn't mean he came back to me or that he remembered how happy we were together once. I do believe he will continue searching and is stubborn enough that he will never admit he made a mistake (leaving his family), even if he never finds happiness in other Rs.
And I do believe that the best revenge is to be happy without them. Possibly, with younger studs :-)
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I do believe what RCR says right up front that the OP is a symptom, not the cause. Of course it's the part most of us focus on because it is the big game changer in our relationships. But underneath it all there is something else driving this thing that no relationship, no new location, no new job is going to magically cure. All we can do is love ourselves through it and make good choices.
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Peevee, even if our MLCer knows they are unhappy with OW they are still going to leave to be with her/stay with her
Then they may leave her and move on to OW number, 2, 3, 4, etc., with whom they are also not happy, but that also isn't going to bring them back.
They will try and try and try to prove themselves that some other person must bring them happiness. OW/OM does not bring happiness to the MLCer. However the MLCer can take a very long time to realise it.
We all think we have the super subborn MLCer who will never admit they have made a mistake. They tend to. Sometimes even during Replay (Mr J did it), but they will only come out of their tunnel when they will be ready.
If the MLCer never finds happiness there is little we can do. We cannot fix them, we cannot make them happy. They have to figure it out themselves.
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I do believe what RCR says right up front that the OP is a symptom, not the cause. Of course it's the part most of us focus on because it is the big game changer in our relationships. But underneath it all there is something else driving this thing that no relationship, no new location, no new job is going to magically cure. All we can do is love ourselves through it and make good choices.
Another RCR quote that is an excellent reminder of the MLCer/alienator relationship......even if they marry......and we know what MLCers think of marriage anyway, right?
The alienator is just a convenient and willing player on stage.
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Yep the ex did admit he made a mistake divorcing me..but not to me... to a guitar playing buddy of his. He told him the exow was lying and stealing money from him.
His buddy asked him "What are you doing?"
I found this out after the DV incident.
The ex doesn't talk to him anymore. This buddy of his hung his head and said " He hates me now" I said
" Good! Maybe he'll stay away from you now"
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Oh yes, in a way I am happy mine went back into the cycle of 1month/6months/2-year relationships. I am kind of glad that he will now have to worry constantly about making OW stay. And I'm looking forward to the day OW cheats on and/or dumps him just like all his previous 9 ex-gfs.
In fact, now that I think of it, he once told me how one of his ex-gfs dumped him and left for her home country without informing him. He flew over to look for her and her bf (which he claims he didn't know about) tried to run him over with a car. He later penned a suicide note to her which he didn't send. Another ex's husband snatched the phone from her while they were having a conversation. He claims that her husband was abusive (they have 6 kids together), but now I think she was probably just a $lut that's why. The last one treated him better than I did, and I always told him that, in order to knock some sense of appreciation into him, but he slags her off as fat and uneducated. In the end she cheated on him and dumped him too, and he threatened suicide again (and that's when I met him). And no he did not return to her after BD. But shortly after she dumped him, he did call her in front of me to ask her if he was the best-looking bf she ever had (no, we weren't together yet) :o. And now that I think of it, he refused to get his stuff from her home. I had to go with him to get it. Hmm.
Anyway I'm glad he's back to the world he came from. He always saw my faithfulness as a flaw not a virtue. It's been 10 years so maybe he needs a reminder of what that world of broken hearts and suicidal nights really feels like.
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Those of you who are offended by this topic will probably be pleased to know that I fell during my last race and badly scraped my knee and I am in excruciating pain now after accidentally pushing my laptop computer against it. :(
That worked out conveniently since none of us "old broads" were there to punch you in the arm for your stereotypes ??? ::) ;) .
uhm, no HT, who do you think tripped him ;-)... When my exH had a heart attack right after BD (trying to keep up with the 15 year younger woman, who actually does not like sex, but loves hip-hop concerts). I was freaked out and told my friend "Pastor B" and a couple others that in my pain and bitterness, I had wished for that to happen and I felt so terrible. Pastor B said, oh ll, you are NOT that powerful, as she shook her head and looked at me sadly. Then she got a wry smile and motioned around the room, and said, unfortunately, the collective rest of us ARE, so don't you worry, you don't own this. Be careful MBIB, us old broads are very powerful...
But, no, in reality, of course you are attracted to young women, as we are attracted to young men. And you could land yourself dozens of them, for all the wrong reasons. But in ten years when your running legs give out and the spare tire starts to form and your skin sags, and you start to have other mysterious ailments, my doctor calls "seasons of aging." Do you REALLY think that 35yo is going to stay by your side? Can you say H-E to the double L NO. Even we, us collective old broads kind of weigh Rs really hard knowing that we are going to live longer, so how much do we WANT to take care of this prospect--also knowing that men generally SUCK to take care of. I would rather take care of ALL my women friends than one of most of the men I know... And it's a HUGE factor in a lot of MLCers wanting to come back too, I think. When they realize that sad reality--WHO will take care of their flat sagging butts? It ain't going to be the cute nurse with the perky rack unless you can still pay her really well and she has time off to have her real life "on the side."
Plus, don't forget a lot of those hot babes want real babes and I get a super kick out of going places and watching the miserable MLC men with their young families... It's schadenfreude, sure, but it was their choice, the fact that I get to see it is just a consequence...
The crazy thing is , so do women and you can say all the same about older women and younger guys to but hey , that doesn't stop em cougaring does it.And whoever thinks women don't age the same haven't done much reading bc they do and in all the same places and then some and they also lose staying power believe me.
But l spent years looking after my w and she was 11yrs younger than me and young for her age. My dad spent years looking after mum and she was 6yrs younger than him and went 4 yrs before him. He was in hospital once in his life she was in hospital for 20 yrs on and off of hers. Got 5 brothers, 4married , always waiting on or nursing their wives for something. Ones a 4th down karate expert and his is 12yrs younger than him but l really couldn't go where he's been waiting on her either still , they've been married 30yrs so he's doin a lot better than l did.
Could say the same for my ex and any of the women l've met single since, l can't believe the condition of them and all their ailments you'd think they were 95. So it all just goes round and round from what l see and l see a lot , done and been with a lot too.
Plenty of opps at 35yrs olds , actually why l'm still single l think, they've been the only ones close really but sadly , l just see mlc in 10 yrs time and l ain't goin there. That is sad isn't it!
What l would really like about now is someone closer to my own age but still as fit as l am and still lookin good. That'd be perfect . And preferably not a train wreck .
l'd also like the idea of being at the same stages in life too.
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Hawk, your family's experience is DEFINITELY not the statistical norm. Women generally live longer, healthier lives than men, and it is also statistically proven that many men walk when their wives have health setbacks. A quick look at politicians and those aspiring, makes that plain... But the interesting thing about cougars is the mindset. There are shallow female cads, and that would be them. Of course some are different, but I think most cougars are truly in it for the fun, not marriage, DEFINITELY not kids, or a family... And neither are the cubs they are playing with... I was just trying to caution MBIB that he should be careful thinking kittens and cubs play the same ;-). Kittens usually want more and expect more... Love and light, ll
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I think if two people honestly connect (keyword: honestly), age really doesn't matter. OW in my case is a little older (not by a huge amount, but it fits with most of Hoss' MLC friends who are a good 10-30+ years older than him, especially since she has grown children still at home and we had none. He wants a mother figure).
I am open to what the future holds, but I do remember asking a friend a few years ago (female MLCer who was married, but living an "open" relationship after his MLC affair) what she saw in the younger men she was hooking up with. She said it was great for what they had in common, like current music, energy to party, sex. But her interest never lasted, because unlike with her H who was the same age as she was, there were none of those shared pop-culture and life stage experiences they could build on.
I remember my dad saying that too about his ex-wife, who was 13 years younger. Music was really important to him, but the music of his youth was the music of her parents' young adulthood, so he'd have to discuss it to them, not her, because it bored her! They were different races, and the cultural differences were nothing compared to the age difference. And they were both middle aged, so I don't get it!
But I keep that in mind when I see men in their early 50's. There would be a gap. But if it were Keanu Reeves or David Duchovny, I might be willing to deal with it. ;) All men under 35 seem like babies to me, so I don't think I'm going to have to worry about the cougar thing grabbing hold. I don't want to raise a man! In some ways, I feel like I already have!
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...unlike with her H who was the same age as she was, there were none of those shared pop-culture and life stage experiences they could build on.
This is where my H & his OW's R puzzles me. She is 11 years younger. Music has been such a touchstone in our lives. We were pre-teens watching the Beatles hit America, teens with Motown & top 40 & then moving on to album-oriented rock radio stations & beyond. We loved it all. I can mark every stage of our lives by the music. And then OW grew up in a rather isolated area, M'ed at 18 & had a baby shortly after. We M'ed young too, but didn't have our first kid for 9 years, so we partied together, explored new music together.
I imagine OW loving whatever my H says he likes, but she still doesn't have that experience of THAT music permeating your life. I'm left with the memories & a huge album collection I have to figure out how to get rid of. Might do better selling them one by one on Ebay, but seems like a lot of work.
When/if I go looking for someone new I think I will only go 5 years younger to 5 years older, just for those musical/cultural reasons. As far as health & fitness, that is so individual. There are 40 year olds, both men & women, in terrible shape & 60 & 70 year olds in great shape. Signs of aging come to us all, but good health in a new partner would be very important & the thought of taking on a new partner at 65 who, in not too many years, is likely to begin to have health problems is one reason I think I will be leery to make any kind of new commitments. Fun & friendship, for sure. M, I'm thinking absolutely not. Something between, who knows?
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Hoss and I were (are, at least for me) lifelong musicians. His tastes went to the one genre I didn't like (and he never did prior) around BD, so when it comes to that, I know it's one area where he and I will always have "our songs." So many great concerts, records (glad I still have the whole collection), days spent just absorbing everything we could listen to or play. The one thing the OW couldn't manage to destroy.
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Hi
The reason why i asked the question about why we take comfort/justice/whatever it is for us, in knowing that our ex is unhappy with OW is that -right or wrong- i have come to question this thing we call love. After reading many books i have come to realise that love is not an emotion but rather a state of mind. Love has no conditions. Love is an act of kindness. Love does not take anything personally. So if this is the case we should still be able to love our MLCer in spite of the hurt they caused - idealistic i know but that is the true act of love.
It was when i came to this realisation that i started to question if i ever loved my ex because like most of you i wanted justice and even revenge in those moments of sheer anger - i wanted ex to suffer the heartbreaking pain he not only caused me but my family who accepted him as a son and a brother.
I remember in the beginning before reading these books and coming to any realisation about love, everyday i would ask the question "where did the love go?". I was asking this of God/universe/the greater consciousness. And then one day about 18 months after BD while driving my car the answer suddenly hit me - it felt so surreal almost like the proverbial ask and you shall receive. And boy did i receive my answer. And that answer was "the love was never there" it was an answer i didn't accept at first - i fought it tooth and nail and for a long time went into denial.
But after much reading and brooding i came to accept the answer. There was attachment, there was definitely co-dependence, there was affection but love - NO. Not only did ex not love me but the fact that i wanted justice, that i wanted him to suffer meant that there was no love in me for him. The sad thing is that once i accepted this fact, ex texted me one day to say he regrets that our marriage had not continued and that it was a good marriage (funny because up till this text message ex had said he had been miserable for 13 years of our 14 year marriage). He texted these words 8 months into his marriage to the ow.
I never replied to his text - there was nothing to say (i'm not convinced of the sincerity in those words) and anything i would have said would just have been hurtful to him. Because the sad thing is while he may have come to the realisation that we had a good marriage - something that i had kept saying for a very long time - i had reached the realisation that i am not so sure we had a good marriage - i had become very accommodating in my fear of loosing my ex - and because of this for a long time our marriage revolved around his needs, his happiness - it became all about him, him, him - at the time i did not realise it - i just felt i was being the supportive wife - however i now realise what i had become - a prop to my ex's happiness or lack thereof. There was absolutely no love from him and to be honest i am beginning to suspect i may have been married to a narcissist but i am no therapist and cannot tell for sure.
I also came to realise that in our marriage i never expected ex to make me happy i understood that happiness comes from within - all i wanted was to share my life with ex but to him i was the sole source of his unhappiness - he even came right out and said "i no longer made him happy" and i remember my reply at the time was "that's an unfair burden to put on some-one - happiness must come from within you". After that of course i went into extra supportive mode trying to encourage ex to take on hobbies he loved etc etc and still he wasn't happy!!!! Eventually he found ow1 or should i say ow1 and many ow he was cheating on ow1 with - although he finally married ow1.
I'm not so sure i buy into the "MLC" - i just think that we all deal with the negativity that comes into play in our own way and that our ex's chose to deal with their unhappiness by throwing the people closest to them under the bus. This points to nothing more than the value they place on relationships and people - which is very little- and this is why the LBS is expendable. The LBS did not see this quality in their ex because we were relating to them from our perspective, from our concept of "love", honour, empathy and kindness - in that we place much more value on the people we care about and would never entertain the actions of hurting them is this way. My ex hurtful ways did not only come from the betrayal and abandonment but also the many cruel words and deeds that followed without any provocation. My ex was capable of a level of meanness i would never have believed him capable of and this is just as much a apart of him as is his sense of humour or his intellect or his acts of kindness. However he made the choices to act with unkindness and not because he was experiencing a MLC - it is a part of who he is.
take care
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That's some pretty deep thinking there, moment. :)
I'm not sure I exactly agree but you certainly could be right. Who knows with any certainty? Not me.
If what you say is true then what about the spouses who haven't been Monsters? Who haven't been cruel?
Mine had some anger in the beginning but never said hurtful things to me. He has been decent through the whole thing.
Was never mean or vicious.
So did he love me but maybe fell out of love or did he have a crisis?
I guess none of us really knows why this happens to some people. It could be some of these MICer's aren't really Micer's.
Maybe some of them are just showing their true selves. Maybe some really are just cold, cruel people. Maybe some really did never love their spouses enough and loved themselves more so it was easy to walk away and not care. Maybe some actually WERE unhappy.
So many if's and maybe's. Bottom line is we may never really know.
I remember reading one woman saying she realized that she had been a b!tc# and was working on it. Well maybe it was too late.
Her H could really have been miserable with her.
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moment, I hear all you are saying, and not saying, and feeling. We all struggle with all of it. There are so many philosophical and ontological and moral and ethical questions in what we go through. But, I think love is grace, it is a gift freely given. I think I loved my H and I think you loved yours.
But, I agree that I don't think they loved us, but not for any evil reason, simply because only those who are given love or grace can give it to others, and I think that is what is wrong with MLCers. I think, at the heart, they never truly loved, for whatever reason. I know a lot of people here differ, but that is how I have reconciled it in my head and heart.
I did love, but I loved a man that didn't exist. He was a sham, a shell, and then when he showed his true self, there was nothing left to love. So, for a while, I did hate, and want justice. I wanted to him hurt as I hurt, and her, too. But then I realized that just as they are not capable of love, they are not capable of that kind of pain. Then I could let it go, and let them go. I don't forgive him as much as I have come to accept him, and her, for what they are and what they have no ability to know... And I feel sadness and compassion for them and my kids, and hers. I don't have to wish them well, I don't have to continue to love a man I never knew, and certainly not a woman I have never met, but I wish them no harm, and that's about the best I care to do. I have too many other people that need my love and grace, and yours too, so don't squander it under ill feelings! Love and light, ll
There is no safe investment, for to love at all is to be vulnerable. Love anything, and your heart will certainly be wrung and possibly be broken. If you want to make sure of keeping it intact, you must give your heart to no one, not even an animal. Wrap it carefully round with hobbies and little luxuries; avoid all entanglements; lock it up safe in the casket or coffin of your selfishness. But in that casket — safe, dark, motionless, airless — it will change… It will not be broken; it will become unbreakable, impenetrable, irredeemable. The alternative to tragedy, or at least to the risk of tragedy, is damnation. The only place outside heaven where you can be perfectly safe from all the dangers and perturbations of love is hell. I believe that the most lawless and inordinate loves are less [destructive] than a self-invited and self-protective lovelessness… We shall draw nearer to [what we seek], not by trying to avoid the sufferings inherent in all loves, but by accepting them… throwing away all defensive armour. If our hearts need to be broken, and… this is [the] way in which they should break, so be it. What I know about love and believe about love and giving one’s heart began in this."
--CS Lewis, The Four Loves
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Attaching, Moment. You are describing my relationship with my X and him to the tiniest, painful detail. I also had this thought few months after BD. I was in total bewilderment - how can this happen? How can someone just stop loving me? And then - realization - he never loved me in the First place! It was all fake, from the beginning (after infatuation phase).
And yes, creating a family was his attempt to make him happy. Not us. He is not aware of this, on the contrary, he thinks he did everything for us, and got almost nothing in return.
He has built a dream home, dream vacation home, he had a picture perfect wife and children. Only, we weren't perfect, or not as he imagined us to be. And we didn't make him happy. Just the opposite, we became a burden, responsibilty - kids were loud and demanding, wife was aging, wearing jeans and baggy pants instead of high heels. He tried to make himself happy with "family" project, but once it was finished, it didn't give him the satisfaction he expected. And I hated him for making me and my kids part of his project, which was then so lightly abandoned. When he was leaving me, he said - I love you, but love is not enough. He doesn't believe in unconditional love. I dissapointed him. Didn't match up his expectations.
Do I love him? I don't know any more... I Know my pain is horribly real. But is it because of my ego, fear, shame or love?
Once, when I saw how miserable he is, I even wished that he finds happiness with somebody else. That was a moment of unselfish love. But it was only a moment. Most of the time I am angry at him and myself.
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I was just trying to caution MBIB that he should be careful thinking kittens and cubs play the same ;-). Kittens usually want more and expect more... Love and light, ll
Thanks for the warning but the discussion is purely academic at this point. The vow I took was until death do us part and we're both still alive. We were married in a Catholic church before God, our family, and our friends, and I don't believe the state has the power to end our marriage so the divorce my wife is pursuing is meaningless.
My experience is similar to Hawk's. I've taken care of my wife financially our whole marriage and I'm in much better shape than she is physically even though she's 3 years younger then me so I expected that I would be taking care of her physically as well. That's one of the things that really upsets me about this is knowing that she's sick and I can't help her. One of her medical issues is that she has iron deficiency anemia and I learned yesterday that it's severe enough now that she's been getting blood transfusions once a week for the past three weeks. And my older brother's taking care of his wife now as she is starting to show signs of early onset Alzheimer's. So we're not the norm either.
I can honestly say that I've never wanted my wife to suffer, nor have I ever thought she was consciously trying to hurt me. I've felt sorrow for her and I do believe she's going through a crisis and that we had a good marriage before her crisis. I believe this crisis has changed her persona but not who she is and I will never doubt my love for her and I don't doubt that she also loved me. I also believe it's possible others have had different experiences.
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What makes anyone think that wanting to see justice done and means not loving someone? There was a 17 year old young man who brutally murdered a 10 year old girl. His mother had him turn himself in when she discovered what he had done, because justice needed to be done. Do you think for one minute she didn't love her son?
Love is different to different people, just like everything else in life. Love allows room for anger, grief, or pain to be expressed and released. It doesn't say that just because I want you to know the hurt I feel, I don't love you any more.
I'm sorry if you don't think you ever loved your xH, moment. I'm not sure that is true. I think that once you no longer loved him, you simply forgot that you once did, the same as our MLCers have.
I often wonder, if we are all responsible for our own happiness, why bother being with anyone at all. We should all be happy in our own little bubbles. But that is not true life. In true life, we all affect one another in many ways. Other people can make us unhappy. It's what we do with that unhappiness that we control.
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It's very possible for us to rewrite history and reframe our past relationships in order to cope and have closure (and it works both ways, because we can overly idealize the marriage in order to validate standing for it, too). It's human nature to want to make sense of something that makes no sense. Sometimes just accepting that this makes no sense but is happening anyway is the best choice, so we don't give it all more analysis than it needs. Detachment.
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Offroad, I agree. We are not saints, we can be angry and even hate, it doesn't mean we don't love them. Hate and love are close- it means caring about somebody passionately, in a good or bad way. I Know I have stopped loving him when I stop thinking of him.
Lisalives - I love this...thank you for this Quote.
The only place outside heaven where you can be perfectly safe from all the dangers and perturbations of love is hell.
Ready, about rewriting history, I do it every day in every possible way. Yes, trying to make sense out of something it doesn't have any sense. Better go back to screenwriting, here at least I have control over my story :-)
MBIB - I love your devotion and faith. You really Know how to love.
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I also came to realise that in our marriage i never expected ex to make me happy i understood that happiness comes from within - all i wanted was to share my life with ex
I too had this belief and I still do. I was brought up in a family where grudges were pointless - even though my mother unwittingly said things to me to hurt my self esteem -both parents taught me the value of love and I mean unconditional love.
he even came right out and said "i no longer made him happy"
Ironically H said something similar and OW's H said to my H (yes it was a weird triangle for a few weeks in which OW and her H were separated although he was still living in the house). OW's H said to my H " You are welcome to her - she has told me I can't make her happy so I have given up trying!"
Not only did ex not love me but the fact that i wanted justice, that i wanted him to suffer meant that there was no love in me for him.
Disagree that this is proof of no love in either of you. You are hurting and when people hurt they seek revenge, justice and anger. It's the same principle as the seven stages of grief and is always a reaction in a traumatic situation. I wanted OW to suffer and I wanted H to suffer and still look forward to the day when what he has done will hit him like a ton of bricks - does this mean that I don't love him - no it means I am a realist about what he will have to endure because he knows like all MLCers know, that what he has done is wrong. The difference is whether I will be there when it does happen. Because I love myself more and that is why I see no point in harbouring the anger - it will only destroy me.
However he made the choices to act with unkindness and not because he was experiencing a MLC - it is a part of who he is.
Was he mean and acted with unkindness throughout your whole married life then? Did he do acts which were cruel and destructive when you were married? If so then perhaps yes I agree it is a part of who he is. MLC is not the true person emerging - it's the fear of the shadow that emerges. It is a black depression that engulfs and the shadow emerges with a warped sense of entitlement and selfishness that is unparalleled. My D has depression and suffered really badly in her late teens. She was capable of so much nastiness and did exactly what suited her regardless. Did I think she didn't love me even when she screamed in my face that she hated me. NO. Did I think that I had never loved her - no. I did think for a while that I couldn't love her and that's the difference. However I did love her, I stepped back and left her to it. Now, even though she still has bouts of depression, she is a changed person with a huge heart and much love to bestow on all. We have a great relationship.
I Know my pain is horribly real. But is it because of my ego, fear, shame or love?
Probably all three. Let the pain work its way through and out of your system.
If you want to make sure of keeping it intact, you must give your heart to no one, not even an animal. Wrap it carefully round with hobbies and little luxuries; avoid all entanglements; lock it up safe in the casket or coffin of your selfishness. But in that casket — safe, dark, motionless, airless — it will change… It will not be broken; it will become unbreakable, impenetrable, irredeemable.
This is brilliant LL . H was destroyed as a teenager by witnessing his father's sudden death. He has never been able to mention his father without getting very very emotional and shuts down (FOO). However is this perhaps what happened to my H? Perhaps he has not allowed his heart to be broken again and so whilst he has loved - he has loved with caution?
What makes anyone think that wanting to see justice done and means not loving someone?
Exactly!
It's very possible for us to rewrite history and reframe our past relationships in order to cope and have closure (and it works both ways, because we can overly idealize the marriage in order to validate standing for it, too). It's human nature to want to make sense of something that makes no sense. Sometimes just accepting that this makes no sense but is happening anyway is the best choice, so we don't give it all more analysis than it needs. Detachment.
That's it - LBSers get paralysis of analysis because we are unable to get into the mindset of our MLCer. We thought we knew them - we discover we didn't so we make it a mission to analyse and fit all past episodes into little boxes because it's easier than accepting the mess that they are in and have left us in. It is also part of the initial journey we are on where we try to validate ourselves because we think we have to.
My T is brilliant and always says when I make a comment about H or myself or someone else - "What makes you say that?" Note it is different from "Why do you say that?" What makes you say that is- do you have clear 3 dimensional evidence that is irrefutable and that if challenged would be true for other people too?
Now I ask myself when in doubt - it has really helped me detach.
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On one extreme is codependent narcissist (inverted narcissist) on other extreme is counter codependent narcissist. Those extremes are pathological, maladaptive. Those people have huge ego, ego per se is complex and it is defensive. Those people make huge wall around inner ego and rest of ego - persona. They do not like own inner ego which is weak, pathetic, scared, that inner ego is fragile and live in constant fear, obligation and guilt. Those people are traumatized in childhood and they reject inner self and identify with persona. Majority of normal people identify with inner ego, narcissist no, they identify with persona.
All other people suits in spectrum between those two extremes. For example someone who is well balanced, healthy, ideal human being is at the middle of that spectrum. Thea are moderately codependent and moderately counter codependent and their narcissism is healthy. Also their persona is not so different than rest of ego, in other words, disparity between rest of ego and persona is very low, One feel as whole.
Also exists correlation with ego and subconsciousness, link between ego and subconsciousness is anima / animus - the soul. How much is important good communication between ego and subconsciousness also is important good communication rest of ego and persona. Everything is linked. Inner world - Shadow (subconsciousness) - Anima / Animus - rest of ego - persona - outer world.
If somewhere communication is bad or not existent there problems arrive.
Happy person is aligned on all levels. Means what One feels, thinks and speak is the same.
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moment,
I have been troubled by your most recent post & have been mulling over a response to it & to the many good responses that followed, but here S&D has done it for me.
Despite the uncanny similarities in our MLCer's words & actions, we all had unique M's, so no one can dispute what you know about yourself, your H, & your M. Some MLCer's are indeed narcissists & that is important to determine. Mirror work would involve determining why you would want to fling yourself back into such a harmful R. But most often here, at some stage, we all seem to believe our spouses ARE narcissists, not just behaving like one, because we see no other explanation.
The MC H & I saw (briefly together/much longer for me) quickly identified my H's actions as an addiction & also quickly determined that my H was not a narcissist. He later explained to me that addicts (& I believe MLCer's) behave like narcissists--they lose their conscience, they lose empathy, they are completely selfish. In the language of MLC, as S&D says, these are the actions of the Shadow. In the language of addiction, these are the actions of the Inner Addict. The true self is overwhelmed & this is the struggle of those in crisis.
I have no doubt that I love my H & always will. That is my feeling, but also my choice. I don't believe he will ever heal if he does not acknowledge & feel the pain he has inflicted on others. My desire for this comes from my love & yes, also from a desire for justice, but not from a place of revenge. I don't want my H to feel pain & remain in pain; I want him to move through it & to a place of healing.
I also believe that my H loved me, although at one point I asked my IC if I was just his first addiction. The brokenness inflicted by his FOO has led him to seek external sources of "happiness" all through his life. I see this as the source of his tendency toward selfishness throughout our lives. But a man does not work hard to provide for his family all of his life, live a faithful M for over 30 years, & enjoy mutual interests in a relaxed & comfortable way with his spouse for decades without love. He has mistaken his depression & the distraction of an OW's adoration/infatuation as indications that he has "been unhappy in our M" for over half of our 40 years together.
I have said at times that I hate the OW, that I will never forgive her, but truly I don't waste that much energy on her. I wish her to no longer be a factor in my family's life, but beyond that I don't care one bit what is to become of her. That has nothing to do with me.
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LL and Peevee - Your words - my thoughts. I could not have said it any better!!! ;)
And maybe I should clarify my words when I question this thing we call love because my understanding of love will be different to anyone else's. To me love has no opposite not even hate is the opposite to love and maybe what I mean by love is the ultimate compassion, as LL said grace and empathy. LOVE IS AN ACTION NOT AN EMOTION. Me wanting ex to suffer (I need to qualify this is an old feeling and no longer rears its head that often, only in times when I am in a bad place) does bring the idea of my capacity to love into question. Do I care about ex yes, do I want harm to come to him ABSOLUTELY NOT - this is why I never took my revenge - which I could have as I had evidence of ex cheating on ow1 I could have sent it to her anonymously she would never have known it was me because by then I was way out of the picture - I never took this path because I did not want to carry the guilt and remorse of what would have happened - major pain and humiliation for ex and he certainly would not have married her. Does this mean I have empathy for ex in some way yes but do I love him - NO?????? because there is a part of me, however small, that wants justice. And for me wanting justice is not loving.
For me love is far greater than any egoic need - like the need for justice. I rehabilitate injured and sick birds and some of them take several months to come right. I develop quite an affection for their quirky "personalities" but when it is time to release them I do it gladly. I know that giving of my time to these birds is based on the true sense of LOVE - I have no expectation from them at all - I do not expect gratitude, I do not expect love or compassion in return. Yet in my very human way I cannot offer the same to the people in my life - their is an expectation of some kind of reciprocation and ex was no exception. In fact with him there is a greater expectation that he show compassion and empathy simply because we shared an intimacy that I have not shared with anyone else and we vowed to be there for each other in the good and bad times. So then I guess intimacy obscures our ability to really extend love when sh$^$&t hits the fan.
As for rewriting history - I have with clarity of thought really considered my marriage without clouding it with my pain. There were many things I allowed which at the time I didn't realise because I was blinded by "love". My ex always needed the luxuries and like Peevee I was a prop to his life - I did without so he could do with. I remember when ex and I were two years into dating and I invited him to my graduation ceremony he did not attend because he had a business appointment, an appointment that could easily be rescheduled. At the time I was hurt but I don't tend to hold grudges and we moved on - in retrospect I now realise that while ex was proud that he was dating an educated woman (he at the time only had a school leaving certificate - after he met me he started studying towards a degree - I am not sure he would have done so if I had not had a degree) and he could show me off to his family and acquaintances - he could not bring himself to celebrate in my achievement. This kind of behaviour came to define our marriage. He drove the luxury cars I drove the cheap unassuming car - this is what he needed to feel I guess validated. So yes I am the luckier of the two because I have come from a family that cares about each other and we hold each other up in the bad times. He, unfortunately, came from a family that only saw the use in others.
I digress at the end of the day - I guess I am trying to come to terms with my shadows and am trying to take an honest look at myself and my need for justice, my need to ex to suffer heartbreak - and that is why I question my ability to love in the true sense of what I think this condition called love is. While it is a high ideal I wonder if the day will ever come that within the limitations of my human condition I will be able to truly let go and be at peace no matter what life throws at me- like Pema Chodron.
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For me, it's not about justice. As I've had always told him, there's no point in apologising. What's done is done. You can patch back a broken vase, but it will still always have been broken. What's important is to not repeat the same mistake. I guess I'm waiting for him to understand this, and to be able to finally recognise and acknowledge what truly matters in life.
The opposite of love is indifference.
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Moment your posts remind me of the relationship I was in. It was all about image and how things looked with him. What I could do for him. Not who I was. My achievement's or things that I did.
He wrote a couple of books once and even failed to mention me in the forward for helping him. I didn't even realize he didn't. He fixed it in the second printing.
I was a prop in his movie..not my own person.
I remember a car situation.( this was after he had inherited a substantial amount of money) I was driving a huge old black blazer and the window motors were broken so I couldn't roll them down in the summer. The girls were small so I didn't go many places as we got too hot going too far from home.
I found another car locally. He was working and driving a brand new car.
The girls and I went to look at the car I found. I called him and told him about the car. After work he did go look at it and bought it. It was 1100.00.
The girls and I were so excited about it.
He did make the comment to me.
"I think I neglected my family"...uh yeah you might say so. He had a new car with air conditioning so he was all set ..Not. One. Single. Thought. in our direction.
As far as the ex suffering heartbreak? I don't think it's possible. The ex feels no love therefore cannot experience loss. Maybe loss of control- but no depth of emotion.Other than inflicting his own misery on others. He has no investment in relationships. People are just something to manipulate for him.
He and the exow deserved each other. It's too bad it didn't work out for them.
Moment I think that's wonderful work you are doing with the birds!
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moment,
My first X was exactly like that. Always "new" everything for him. He was a user of people his whole life.
When he found his ow she was JUST like him. Very materialistic and selfish. They didn't last of course, too much competition there. : )
When I think about him now, years later, I see he didn't like himself and was very insecure. Things made him important.
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In it - yes i think we married the same type of person my ex married ow1 i think in part because she does make him look good. I have to give it to her she has a very good sense of style and mostly wears designer clothes - they also married in one of the most expensive hotels in this country - a hotel frequented by people like Prince Albert of Monaco - in fact he honeymooned at this hotel. Friends who have seen the wedding photos say that they looked posed and they have made sure that in many of the photos the name of the hotel is seen in the background - almost as if to show off to people what a stylish upper class wedding they had. It is such a far cry from our wedding which was a simple country affair. I guess ow1 has provided ex with the required elevated status level that makes him feel important. Funny thing is while they have bought class they are not necessarily classy - she is the kind of woman that thinks nothing of sending graphic pictures of her privates to a married man 3 months into knowing him. In fact may of the women ex was meeting did this but then again he was meeting these women on websites that catered for sex, affairs and one night stands!!!! To me this is not dignified behaviour - but anyway each to his or rather her own. And yes i am being judgemental - another egoic flaw!!!
Thunder - yes ex is very materialistic and you are right it probably does stem from lack of self worth but does this excuse callous behaviour.
I guess at the end of the day i should consider myself blessed and focus on that. I have people in my life who care for me and accept me warts and all. People who accept me not for what i can give them materially - which is not much- but just enjoy being in my company as i enjoy being in theirs. I would hate it if the only way i could feel worthy is through material things - it would make me feel empty - very empty. And maybe that's the gist of the emptiness that ex may feel and maybe that's why this void is never filled not matter how much money he spends or how sophisticated and glamorous he shows himself to be. I guess in the end i was a good enough prop for 21 years until he changed jobs and in this new corporate environment i no longer was a good enough prop. He now needed a new image one that comes in a designer package and is 14 years younger!!! Sad really. Although for ex and ow1 they probably don't see it from this perspective and are blissfully happy in their perspective whatever that may be.