Midlife Crisis: Support for Left Behind Spouses
Archives => Archived Topics => Topic started by: Thundarr on September 18, 2015, 03:55:02 AM
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http://www.foxnews.com/entertainment/2015/09/17/olympian-turned-escort-suzy-favor-hamiltonys-drug-mental-disorder-led-to/?intcmp=hpff
I read and watched this with three words in mind - Oh. My. God. XW had started on Zoloft a few months before BD and for the first few months of 2011 would definitely fit the definition of hyper-sexualized as she wanted it multiple times every day and waited up for me to get home at night and then kept me up half the night. We had fooled around about 8 times the day before I caught her at lawyer boy's office! TMI, I know, but it totally fits with the side effects of taking Zoloft when someone has Bipolar Disorder. I can't decide whether I needed this today or if it was the last thing that I needed, but I've already texted XW to ask if she is still taking it. If so it's prescribed by a PCP and hopefully I can at least warn her about "possible health risks" enough that she gets evaluated by a psychiatrist. Wow. Just.....wow.
Update: She just informed me that she is still taking it. I advised her to stop until being evaluated by a psychiatrist due to "health risks." We'll see where this goes, if anywhere. I have also found several accounts of Zoloft triggering manic episodes on various websites.
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So your diagnosis is that your ex is bipolar?
You think telling her this is going to help you or her?
I don't think so.
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Wow this has disaster written all over it.
This is not new news to you. I told you j is on medication for bipolar including depression pills and mood stabilizers.
You think you diagnosing her as bipolar is helpful?
She already feels you are controlling and superior because of your career, lacks confidence and resents your protectiveness. She has repeatedly told you just those things.
Now you tell her she needs to be evaluated by a psychiatrist? You think she didn't translate that as her being crazy? ??
And you tell her to go off her meds for depression when she has a history of serious depression?
And she doesn't seem to be currently showing signs of being manic that you have mentioned.
No current hypersexuality.
No not sleeping for days.
No inability to perform her job.
No high risk taking behavior.
No inability to take care of her ADL' s.
No huge money management issues.
No cycling between manic and depressive states.
You are still trying to fix her.
This is stuff newbies do not someone 5 years in to this.
And 10 steps back from where you were.
How many times do you have to be told to stop diagnosing her?
MLC and bipolar have much in common true. But you are walking a very dangerous line personally and professionally.
Where is my 4 x 2 ???? And my soda???
####@!$&#@@@&!!
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It is also very dangerous to stop taking it without being slowly tapered off under a doctor's watch. Most antidepressants should be weaned off and not stopped abruptly. I have to agree with lp, you are trying to save her again and again and again. Do you really believe Zoloft caused her MLC?
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I have always believed that the capacity for SSRI's to affect personality changes may have been a factor in her MLC. It makes perfect sense that the meds may have triggered something latent in her body, and I truly believe that once more of the negative affects of SSRI's are known then they will be taken off the market or at the very least regulated much more than they are. We used to think that benzos were the Wonder Drugs that society had long been waiting for but now know that the benzo addiction epidemic is a national disaster. XW stared taking Zoloft due to depression over her mom's illness, but the reality is that it very likely kept her from experiencing the emotions she needed to in order to grieve properly. It may well have triggered the bipolar that definitely runs in her family, and continued use may be both fueling some of the behaviors as well as preventing her from being able to feel connections with anyone to include the kids. It DOES make perfect sense and would answer many of the questions.
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Thundarr, does SHE think she needs to go off her meds? Does her doctor? I really think that should be left up to them to figure this out.
It does sound like you are trying to fix her. If only we could.
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The Zoloft has been prescribed by a PCP, and in my experience PCP's should stick to prescribing antibiotics or drugs for things they are specifically trained to diagnose. I've worked with kids and adults who have horror stories of being misdiagnosed with a mental illness by PCP's such as having kids on stimulant ADHD meds for YEARS when the kid is suffering from anxiety or even autism/ Asperger's and was never ADHD in the first place. Not many PCP's are specially trained enough to diagnose mental illness, and quite often a diagnose can't even be made without information from multiple sources and observations in various settings. I doubt many PCP's would be skilled enough to diagnose Bipolar Disorder, differentiate between Bipolar I and II and/ or between a Bipolar episode and a Major Depressive episode. It just scares me to think this may be the root of XW's MLC/ crazy behavior and makes me question why I didn't insist she see a psychiatrist back in those days when I first noticed the personality changes.
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Chances are she wouldn't have gone anyway. Remember MCer's think they are just fine. Nothing wrong with them.
::)
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Really?
Where are the current manic cycles since she is still on the meds?
Why didn't someone tell the prescribing physician about the hyper sexuality when she was originally being diagnosed? Is that why you can't let this go, because you feel guilty?
She is connecting with D22. She is connecting with S going to his practices. She just isn't connecting in the way YOU want her to. How do you explain that?
She didn't and doesn't still know how to grieve properly. Nothing new there.
Still looking for a way to explain this rationally after about 5 years? REALLY ??
Newbie activity.
No benefit.
Cheeseless tunnel.
How would this change your situation assuming for argument it was the meds?
Nothing changes.
She would still be in MLC.
Only now it's complicated by an additional factor, mental illness. Stopping the meds will not miraculously turn her back into the person she was before.
What? Should she go back to being the blob on the couch who can't move?
Long timers in this often have additional complicating factors such as addictions and or mental illness. It changes nothing. I live with this fact everyday in my own home. It wasn't until I let him go, detached. And demanded respect and for him to act like he had some sense that he became better. No taking care of him. No enabling. No diagnosing. No excuses. What makes you think your situation is so different?
You can't medicate her or control her intake of meds.
Long term depression and mania cause damaging changes in the brain itself. You won't get the old wife back. What are you hoping to get from all this?
She hasn't even felt comfortable and come to you for help but here you are yet again cramming help and UN asked for advice down her throat, not so subtly undermining her confidence, setting yourself up as the savior, and telling here there is something very wrong with her and how to fix it to your satisfaction. That's not love or respect.
Same old behavior. You won't even fix your own problems. What makes you think you could even begin to help her if it is mental illness?
You are still being a fixer.
Son of a b!#ch, I am frustrated. I really hoped I was reaching you in some small way. I am very sorry I was wrong.
IF YOU ARE RIGHT HOW EXACTLY DOES THIS CHANGE YOUR SITUATION ?
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I think you're missing the point, LP. It wasn't until recent years that it was discovered that hallucinogenic drugs (acid, peyote, LSD etc) had the potential to unlock several mental disorders that may have lain dormant otherwise. I've worked with adults who had one bad hit and have been dealing with psychoses and paranoia ever since, very much like the symptoms I saw in XW in the early days. We are just scratching the surface on the effect that SSRI's have on the brain and what potential side effects they may have in some people and today's was a revelation to me. What IF the drug unlocked those symptoms in XW that were never there before and would not have been? What IF continued use of the drug keeps the symptoms present and discontinuation of the drug resulted in a cessation of all symptoms eventually. What IF all that we believe about MLC here can be explained (case specific, of course) or even treated by conventional methods? Perhaps I'm like a mad scientist driven to obsession over unlocking this puzzle, or perhaps I can add to the body of evidence in the field that will eventually lead to SSRI's being taken off the market and therefore saving several others in the process. XW displayed NONE of these symptoms prior to initiating the Zoloft and within 3-4 months began displaying severe personality changes. And I have a confession to make that it was me who suggested she start on an anti-depressant as I had little experience with them then and had a supervisor who recommended it. Can you see why I might feel a little responsibility here if it turns out to be the major factor? XW had free will in choosing to do so, but she trusted my judgment then and I believe in most cases still would now. I haven't taken a step back but rather just the opposite. I'm trying to take a step forward not just for me but for all of us......and for those who have yet to find themselves in our shoes.
To take this a step further, since I'm not a prescriber and meds are out of my realm of expertise I'm going to consult with our resident psychiatrist and ARNP whose offices are just a few feet away from mine. Not going into details but rather going to pick their brains (and a few other prescriber friends) to see what their views on the possibility of this are as well as their experiences. I'll keep the thread updated and report back whatever it is that I find out but it will probably be next week as most of them are off on Fridays.
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I can vouch for the fact that PCPs shouldn't be in charge of the meds for mental issues. My MLCer is on Adderall, which was originally prescribed by a psych doc, but is maintained by the PCP. When we were together, I went along and told the doc that it didn't seem to work that well and told him the issues...so he upped it to two extended release pills a day.
Well, guess what, gradually over a couple years, the problems got worse, so we talked to the PCP again and he upped it one more time, with the thought that my MLCer was just getting too accustomed to it. My MLCer was completely off the deep end six months later. His anxiety was through the roof and by that point we were after BD so I could have just let it go and let him figure it out for himself...or watch him end up in jail because nobody else would've ever guessed that it was those meds causing him to get the way he did. He screamed at me one last time and I yelled back that this was not me OR him. It was his Adderall doing this to him and if he didn't get it lowered, he'd likely end up killing someone for something stupid like clicking their pen!
I ended up writing a letter to the doctor about his behavior, with the request that if he was not asked to have the Adderall lowered, to please ask the right questions, based on my information, so that those meds got lowered. Next appointment, my MLCer did get them lowered and has been somewhat better ever since.
Personally, from doing some research on all the possible mental issues he may or may not have, I would bet that the Adderall should never have been prescribed in the first place. He got it about the time that adult ADD had just become "a thing" and told me he went in and said he couldn't concentrate and he forgets things, so they gave it to him. It was the miracle drug...a better morning buzz than a cup of coffee and combine the two for a really good buzz.
Now, he's addicted to it and thinks this is who he really is. No...it's not...but he can't see it at all. I knew him in high school and he was never like he is now. I would be willing to bet that had he not had those meds upped, our time together would've been different. His personality changed. He got more paranoid, had more anxiety, reacted with more and more anger the longer he was on the higher dose...and then it got upped by a doctor who did not know what he was doing. "It's not working, let's give him more!" That doctor NEVER questioned that perhaps he should be re-evaluated for why it was not "working."
It's frustrating to watch and I am very glad I at least spoke up and got it lowered. I knew I would never get him to quit it at that point, but at least with lowering it, he is a much lower level of crazy than he would be by now, had he kept taking the dose he was on.
I did not do it for me or with the hopes that it would change matters with us. I did it for his well being, because I care about him...and I did it for his son, who needed him to be somewhat sane for his high school graduation.
Granted, this isn't the same med or situation, but I don't see how another person should look away if they know someone is on something they should not be on. If you can make a difference in someone's quality of life, why not?
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The only thing wrong with your theory is usually bi-polar generally shows up by early adulthood. Like early 20's. If your W is Bi-polar she would have been diagnoses way before now.
I'm not disputing the fact that some of these drugs do cause some bad, and even dangerous, side effects in some people but I really don't think your W is one of them. imo. Remember the woman in the video was diagnosed with BP before she took the drug, You W wasn't showing signs of BP, right?
When my H went into his crisis I thought he had a brain tumor. Seriously. I even talked to our doctor about it, I was that concerned. But after joining this site I realized his huge personality change is common in MLCer's.
You said your W has gotten better with coming to games and paying more attention to the kids. If that drug was the cause of her derailing why is she getting better? It could just be she is slowly coming out of her tunnel. Give it time.
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Thundarr, I get that point and would be thrilled to examine it and discuss it long term and thoroughly with you as there are interesting and promising things there.
HOWEVER, my point is that you quickly message her and advise her to stop taking the meds. This is where the problem comes in for me.
This is not a scientific approach. It is a fixer approach complicated by your guilt for something that is only a possibility at the present time. If you have guilt already how can you deal with the reality of her changes if it is true?
I agree with much of what you said in that post of late. It is right in my backyard of research. But I spoke of your actions in contacting and advising her, and how it feels to her as she is at this point in reality, coming from you with the back history. She is just as likely to check with her prescriber who will have no idea what she is talking about and will tell her to keep taking the meds. End result is you appear to be a controlling jerk who knows nothing and is wrong to her teenage mind. What was the burning need to advise her of anything prior to doing a bit of behind the scenes work? ?
You were fixing and treating her on one side as a rational adult capable of making rational decisions while also treating her as a child.
BTW J never displayed signs of bipolar before his crisis and I have known him since he was a baby. I posit it is long term damage to his brain from the crisis and the alcohol and drug abuse. Simply he will never be the same man he was pre crisis. A few months in to the crisis he showed a list of bipolar symptoms which over time have decreased in frequency and duration but only with medical treatment including prescriptions.
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Back to basics: Rule of 3. Wait 3 hours, days, weeks...okay in this case maybe years before you say anything.
I've had several flashes of insight during this past few years [beware the ones that occur before, during, or after sleep]. All have fizzled out. I do think there are bio-physical/chemical causes for ml depression. That is a reason for me to detach not to barge in & 'cure' him [my fantasy is to creep up behind him & inject him with a shot of testosterone--maybe I'd just like to stick it to him ;D ;D ;D --wow, there's a wealth of material for a shrink!]
We don't know what causes mlc--I doubt that it is one factor or simple explanation. Unfortunately.
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POAS, I recently dealt with a child who has struggled with anxiety since an early age and his PCP was prescribing stimulants due to what the PCP viewed as ADHD symptoms FOR THE 15 MINUTES SHE MET WITH HIM! Stimulants (including caffeine) and anxiety DO NOT go well together and it almost always makes it worse. For months after BD I couldn't even drink a soda without it putting my anxiety into overdrive. I couldn't imagine what something stronger might have done.
Thunder - My theory is that the person would never have developed Bipolar symptoms if not exposed to the mind-altering drug, just as many mental illnesses (including schizophrenia) can be unlocked by hallucinogens in people who would have never developed the disease otherwise.
LP, I see what you say about jumping the gun and probably should have held off until at least speaking to her in person. I'm hoping she sees that I was concerned about her, but given her statement the other day about me being over-protective I can see why you would say she wouldn't. A step back, perhaps, but hopefully the last one for quite some time. Praying it doesn't slow her ascent from the tunnel at the very least....
Calamity - Very true, and now I wish I had remembered your mantra. And I also don't think there is one cause for MLC, but I DO think that each case is different and MAY have a specific cause. Hopefully one day we'll have the knowledge and technology to unlock those mysteries.
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T, With all due respect, you're showing serious NARC behavior. Is it your own MLC? Are you okay? I showed up here expecting to read some great new research you found, but no, it is you hypothesizing, diagnosing and fixing... everyone but yourself. T, you need to STAND BACK. Even if she is showing signs of wanting you, your clinging is not helping your case. TBH, if you were always this way, I can see why she didn't want to be married to you... Let her go, let her work on herself, let her see you become the independent person she wants to be and let her be attracted to that shining light.
And why are you overlooking the one effect of anti-Ds we have ALWAYS known--that sometimes they work, and when they work, they make people feel better, sometimes a LOT better, really quickly, which can lead to short-term changes, like hyper-sexualization, and suicide--because for some people a lot better means they still feel like $h!te, but can finally get off the sofa and do something about it--like jump off a bridge. But she seems to have leveled out.
WHY, in all your education have you not learned rule 1! You can only own your own stuff. Unless someone ASKS you for help, you can't and should not inflict your help. We all have our own brand of crazy, and none of us will ever be totally fixed. If I were your wife right now, I would be so pissed, and because we have kids together, I would say nothing, but you could bet your sweet patootie, there'd be a LOT of purposefully passive aggressive s@#$ flying your way in the short-term. You think I'm crazy, I'll show you crazy...
T, you care too much about trying to guess what everyone else is thinking and feeling and doing but yourself--you think they don't know that. I bet even your little ones know how to play... If we say sad stuff about Mom, Dad does what we want... Even if it's not true... Don't underestimate what your kids know and how mature they can be about feelings and manipulation... You are not necessarily the smartest one in the room, not about how YOU behave and what others KNOW...
I was hoping to stop in here and see you had grown, but dude you seem stuck (I took a quick look at your last thread)! I wish you well, but you need to get a grip, ASAP, let her go, find yourself. Many people know that too many therapists become therapists for reasons too personal and, in fact they are in no position to help you because the only perspective they have is their own... Don't be that guy, love and light, ll
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My point was that you gave your XW dangerous advise and that was to stop taking them right away and then go see a Dr. It can be extremely dangerous to stop a antidepressant abruptly unless under the care of her Dr.
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POAS, I recently dealt with a child who has struggled with anxiety since an early age and his PCP was prescribing stimulants due to what the PCP viewed as ADHD symptoms FOR THE 15 MINUTES SHE MET WITH HIM! Stimulants (including caffeine) and anxiety DO NOT go well together and it almost always makes it worse. For months after BD I couldn't even drink a soda without it putting my anxiety into overdrive. I couldn't imagine what something stronger might have done.
His highest dose was 30mg XR 2x daily. :o That was up from 25mg XR 1x daily when we first started dating. Add to that at least two of the convenience store size Monster drinks, and a few mugs of coffee. He was plenty stimulated. :o Now he is down to 20mg XR 2x daily and no idea how much caffeine, plus added smoking and drinking. He'd be a different person without any of that.
He'd be a different person if PCP's were not allowed to play with mental drugs that they do not know the first thing about prescribing. Heck, around here, all it takes is a teacher to suggest ADHD and a kid can end up on meds.
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Wondering you are correct.
I was on them years ago when my kids were little. I felt so much better I quit taking them after a few weeks. After a few days I was nauseous and felt really sick. When I called my doctor he was appalled I had just stopped my med. He had me go back on them and slowly decrease the dosage until I was off them.
I'd never do THAT again. ???
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http://www.foxnews.com/entertainment/2015/09/17/olympian-turned-escort-suzy-favor-hamiltonys-drug-mental-disorder-led-to/?intcmp=hpff
I read and watched this with three words in mind - Oh. My. God. XW had started on Zoloft a few months before BD and for the first few months of 2011 would definitely fit the definition of hyper-sexualized as she wanted it multiple times every day and waited up for me to get home at night and then kept me up half the night. We had fooled around about 8 times the day before I caught her at lawyer boy's office! TMI, I know, but it totally fits with the side effects of taking Zoloft when someone has Bipolar Disorder. I can't decide whether I needed this today or if it was the last thing that I needed, but I've already texted XW to ask if she is still taking it. If so it's prescribed by a PCP and hopefully I can at least warn her about "possible health risks" enough that she gets evaluated by a psychiatrist. Wow. Just.....wow.
Hoss was on Serequel XR, then Celexa, then Lexapro. No mood stabilizer. First administered by his MD (actually the guy was an oncologist by specialization!), then the last two by his psychiatrist. Bipolar diagnosis. SSRIs are the worst thing you can give them. I know I'm a broken record around here about it, but between my own research and the professionals I've interviewed about it (pharmacists, PTSD-specializing psychologist, etc) this has been confirmed to me. "Rare and serious side effects" are real. But there was an underlying caused they were prescribed, too.
Update: She just informed me that she is still taking it. I advised her to stop until being evaluated by a psychiatrist due to "health risks." We'll see where this goes, if anywhere. I have also found several accounts of Zoloft triggering manic episodes on various websites.
Nope nope nope gonna disagree with that advice. Quitting cold turkey and not tapering with the help of a doctor is BAD. She'll not only have side effects, psychological and physical, but it can ramp up the mania, and guaranteed she will not seek the advice of a psychiatrist. Not to be scary but Hoss did exactly this and monster entered the scene in a very big way at this point. I don't know what to tell you other than to let her manage her own health. It's a hard pill to swallow for people like us. I've done enough research for a PhD. None of it can help a man who doesn't want my help.
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Sorry wondering, I hadn't seen your posts when I replied! Goes without saying that I am "ditto"ing both of them about discontinuation!!
The only thing wrong with your theory is usually bi-polar generally shows up by early adulthood. Like early 20's. If your W is Bi-polar she would have been diagnoses way before now.
I need to find the link (I believe it's in the DSM), but about 9% of bipolars are diagnosed at midlife, and have their first significant manic episode then. My H did have symptoms in his youth, but I only can see that now much like MLC, by looking back and creating a timeline. His parents weren't the kind of people who would have encouraged psychiatry, to say the least, even though there is a large history of mental health problems in the family (the shame of that actually makes them less likely to want to have a diagnosis in the family, I believe). His problems do run bigger than MLC, but as many people have told me, you can't help someone who doesn't want help. So OW now has to deal with the mood swings and the attitude. Good for her.
T, just to point out a pattern I have to watch with myself: I start to detach and everything is going great, then I find myself in the middle of the night googling Hoss problems. It's not the googling that's the problem, it's my brain's reaction to detachment. It tries to pull me back to where I was at and comfortable!
Is there a chance your brain is doing that, too? That you were getting more steady and stable and then this presented itself, and you were emotionally pulled back in to treat this as a crisis that is brand new? Will bringing this up to your colleagues make them feel you're focusing too much on your xW again?
The goal should be to get to the point of seeing these things and NOT being emotionally moved by them. Should they be considered? Sure! You can say, "Oh yeah....I could see where that may have been an issue. Maybe I'll mention it to OW next time I see her...or not...since it's her life." I post links on my Google+ page sometimes, to things I would have shared with the old Hoss. If he cyber stalks me, which periodically he does, he can see them, but it's not why I do it. I just have to bleed the vein, and that's the best way without overtly reaching out. I had to stop trying. God showed me He had it under control, and didn't need an assistant.
Could Hoss perceive the links as helping or hurting? YES. LOL Whatever personality he is in will interpret them in whatever way he wants. In the meantime, my page can be a bit of a bookmark for other people who are googling these things, too (I get comments sometimes that show it's good for that, too). But mainly it's for me.
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9% of bipolars are diagnosed at midlife
Ready, I never heard that before. There is bp in my 1st H's family but every one of them were about 21 years old when it became apparent. Well between 19 and 22.
Thundarr, I did just read that if a person shows signs of bp or has a family history of it they should not be given Zolof.
Was her doctor aware it ran in her family? There are other meds they can take.
But I guess I would let her talk to her doctor and let them decide. It does seem to be working for her. I read on one of your earlier threads that when she was not on it she said she just cried all the time and was emotional.
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This isn't the link I was looking for from the DSM (I'll dig it out and edit this), but here's one article on Late Onset diagnosis: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2848458/
It IS generally a young, male diagnosis, so I won't argue with that. But this does happen. Either way - they need a TEAM, not a fixer spouse. ;)
Edited to add (I think I have another reference, too, but this one is important), from http://www.healthyplace.com/bipolar-disorder/bipolar-support/dealing-with-bipolar-mania-help-for-caregivers/ . We've discussed it here before as well http://mlcforum.theherosspouse.com/index.php?topic=6328.0
False euphoria is the beginning stage of true bipolar disorder. Behavior is similar to that seen with drug use, a cocaine-like high. People with euphoric mania say they feel great/wonderful/beautiful/fantastic, but make many mistakes such as recklessly spending too much money, having sex with anyone who looks appealing, sleeping a lot less and not getting tired and ultimately making very poor life decisions. It's common for people with full-blown euphoric mania to stay up for weeks, start very risky businesses or simply pick up and leave their current life. Euphoric mania can be very cruel and selfish as the emphasis is strictly on the person with bipolar. The person can be extremely reckless and unable to judge the safety or effect of their behaviors. There will be rapid and sometimes violent mood swings, rage alternating with maniacal laughter. This type of mania can lead to a lot of drug and alcohol use as the person feels so good they lose perspective on the amount they consume. Euphoric mania always starts out feeling great, but ultimately the person comes down and often sees a path of destruction that is hard to clean up. Bipolar patients have difficulty seeing that their behavior is out of line in an acute manic episode. The massive high, which seems abnormal to us, seems normal to them, and there is an unfortunate tendency to self medicate.
At more extreme levels, up to 70% of people in a manic state and 50% of all individuals with bipolar disorder experience psychosis, or a break with reality, along with loss of ability to reason. Of this 70%, over half are euphoric psychotic manias, which are particularly difficult to diagnose as they can be so appealing and fun to the people around the manic person. Manic behavior attracts people who want to join in on the ride. Left unmedicated, people experiencing bipolar psychosis will resist treatment, as they are convinced nothing is wrong with them, they are sure of their reasoning and enjoy the high.
During a manic episode, the person's behavior feels "right," obvious and makes very clear sense, even if it makes no sense to those around the patient or is extremely risky. After the manic episode has run its course, it may be possible for the patient to see how unrealistic, unreal and out-of-touch with reality they were, but this isn't possible during a manic episode.
Functional MRI findings suggest that abnormal modulation between ventral prefrontal and limbic regions, especially the amygdala, likely contribute to poor emotional regulation and mood symptoms.
The neurotransmitter associated with psychosis is dopamine. Antipsychotics that work on the dopamine system effectively decrease psychotic symptoms. Most researchers believe other neurotransmitters are involved as well: serotonin and norepinephrine are also closely linked to bipolar disorder.
Average age of onset of bipolar disorder is 21; first manifestations are common between the ages of 20-24. Many start feeling depressed between the ages of 15-25. Symptoms in teenagers focus on lack of judgment and risky behavior: drunk driving, substance abuse. The younger the age of onset of bipolar disorder, the more likely it is to find a significant family history of the condition. In 10% of bipolar cases, a manic episode occurred around age 50. As an individual ages, s/he may develop new-onset mania associated with vascular changes, or become manic only after recurrent depressive episodes. In the elderly, recognition and treatment of bipolar disorder may be complicated by the presence of dementia or the side effects of medications being taken for other conditions.
The vast majority of patients with bipolar disorder have multiple recurrences (Keller et al, 1993), and it is very rare for patients to have a single episode of hypomania or depression in bipolar disorder over a lifetime. The length of symptom-free intervals often decreases with age.
Untreated bipolar disorder is commonly associated with substance use, abuse and dependence (Tohen et al, 1995); school and work failure; interpersonal dysfunction and relationship breakdown.
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In the beginning of this I went with j to the doctor. He wanted medication to help him quit drinking. He made the appointment himself. The physicians assistant spoke with both of us. He was excellent. He prescribed Zoloft, a mood stabilizer, respiridone, sleeping pills, a blood pressure pill, and a cholesterol pill. I doled out the pills for a few weeks as he was not trustworthy with narcotics in my judgment. The pa saw us together once a week to adjust the medications and monitor his progress. I also had his personal phone number to report any problems immediately.
Over time his medication has been adjusted downward in dosage.
But all this only took place AFTER he went through the REAL depression stage when he aired his demons. And he has worked on talking out issues. And he has worked on behavior modification. And worked on thought modification.
His pa is surprised he has been able to decrease his dosage over the last couple years as that would not be the expected course for the average bipolar. But I thank God each and every day for that man and his skill in diagnosing and prescribing accurately for j.
Best LP
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T, With all due respect, you're showing serious NARC behavior. Is it your own MLC? Are you okay? I showed up here expecting to read some great new research you found, but no, it is you hypothesizing, diagnosing and fixing... everyone but yourself. T, you need to STAND BACK. Even if she is showing signs of wanting you, your clinging is not helping your case. TBH, if you were always this way, I can see why she didn't want to be married to you... Let her go, let her work on herself, let her see you become the independent person she wants to be and let her be attracted to that shining light.
And why are you overlooking the one effect of anti-Ds we have ALWAYS known--that sometimes they work, and when they work, they make people feel better, sometimes a LOT better, really quickly, which can lead to short-term changes, like hyper-sexualization, and suicide--because for some people a lot better means they still feel like $hit, but can finally get off the sofa and do something about it--like jump off a bridge. But she seems to have leveled out.
WHY, in all your education have you not learned rule 1! You can only own your own stuff. Unless someone ASKS you for help, you can't and should not inflict your help. We all have our own brand of crazy, and none of us will ever be totally fixed. If I were your wife right now, I would be so pissed, and because we have kids together, I would say nothing, but you could bet your sweet patootie, there'd be a LOT of purposefully passive aggressive s@#$ flying your way in the short-term. You think I'm crazy, I'll show you crazy...
T, you care too much about trying to guess what everyone else is thinking and feeling and doing but yourself--you think they don't know that. I bet even your little ones know how to play... If we say sad stuff about Mom, Dad does what we want... Even if it's not true... Don't underestimate what your kids know and how mature they can be about feelings and manipulation... You are not necessarily the smartest one in the room, not about how YOU behave and what others KNOW...
I was hoping to stop in here and see you had grown, but dude you seem stuck (I took a quick look at your last thread)! I wish you well, but you need to get a grip, ASAP, let her go, find yourself. Many people know that too many therapists become therapists for reasons too personal and, in fact they are in no position to help you because the only perspective they have is their own... Don't be that guy, love and light, ll
I wanted to address LL's post for two reasons. First off, for those who may not be familiar with LL or myself or know the history of the discussions we have had together this may well have come across as harsh, aggressive or even as an attack. But LL knows me well enough to know that I not only REspect blunt honesty from others but in many cases EXpect it. This statement punched me right in the gut, which was likely the intended effect and only did so because it hit home with me. She's right, and it caused me to do a bit of soul-searching that may have enlightened me as to where this side of my nature comes from (more on that on my personal thread as I don't want to derail this one further). The second reason I wanted to address LL's post was to say, "Thank you, my friend" for the blunt honesty and for caring enough to say it. Thanks to LP, Ready2 and several others for keeping this discussion going as well.
To give a brief update, the two ARNP's I contacted in regards to this had a bit of a mixed but not opposite reaction. The first, who is not a psych ARNP, had not heard of this but said it is entirely possible. The second, who IS a psych ARNP, not only said it was possible but has seen it firsthand over the years. I didn't go into detail but my assumption is that it was with clients who were misdiagnosed as having depression alone rather than Bipolar with depressive symptoms as a modifier. I'll be interested to get our psychiatrist's perspective next week, and as far as them wondering if I'm focusing too much on XW the good thing is that the assumption is that I'm simply asking in regards to a client or general knowledge. I'll probably drop it after a few days as Ready2 had suggested and just chalk it up to one other possible factor. Incidentally, I don't want to derail this thread further but should I contact XW and tell her NOT to d/c the Zoloft? If so, should I play if off as if I thought I was contacting D22 or that I was just half asleep? Or do nothing?
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Everyone here has already answered the question you ask, so if you reread what people are telling you, you will know that you should do NOTHING.
Now, can you do that?
FWIW, I echo everything LisaLives says.
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Everyone here has already answered the question you ask, so if you reread what people are telling you, you will know that you should do NOTHING.
Now, can you do that?
FWIW, I echo everything LisaLives says.
I knew you would, Evas! Thanks to you as well, and yes, I will say nothing else to XW on the topic unless she brings it up.
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T,
The thing is, Iam like LL too. Blunt. Sometimes too honest for people's tastes and well let's say it doesn't always sit well with some .. I even got accused of being arrogant .. Guess that's what they call it.
Anyways, I read it and wanted to say I read an honest approach of LL on there and a need to HELP you and not talking down or whatever. I appreciate that honest post a lot even if it wasn't geared towards me at all. But I talk like that too (not always but when it's needed) and I expect the same from my friends. I get lied to a lot now so I want the brutal honesty as this shakes my core and makes me realize and listen.. When you need it you need it!
I'd say kudos to LL and you got a great friendship .. I know you know that. Be grateful.mi know you are..
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I want to relate a story of my own since my mother is bipolar and so is my daughter.
When my daughter first was diagnosed with this I could only see what had happened with my mother who was always in denial about her disease.
So the first day when my daughter was suppose to take the meds and was hemming and hawing about whether she should do it or not, I decided to sneak the pills into her system.
MAJOR MISTAKE on my part.
The doctor found out and boy was I in trouble.
Now looking back on this I can see how my fixing did not help the situation at all.
My daughter has really come quite a ways since this happened and taken complete responsibility for her own mental health, my mother - errrr - NO!
My mother is on depakote and it seems pretty harsh and really does not keep her under control.
I have no knowledge about Zoloft but my daughter is on Abilify and it really seems to help her.
Oh and one other thing that was really bothering me was that I thought
that I had gentically passed all the bipolar genes on to my daughter.
We have been doing genetic testing and family tree research and my son uncovered
that some of my wifes family are bipolar and have been on meds for years.
So my self blame was not really found in science and lots of worry was
totally wrong.
Bottom line - the patient really needs to be responsible for themselves.
I wish it were some other way but it never works if someone else takes responsibility.
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I would only contact her if you think she listened to you and stopped taking the meds.
You wouldn't need to call her just maybe a short text telling her you should not have told her to stop and to talk to her doctor.
That's all you would need to say...but ONLY if you know she stopped.
jmo
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Ill start by admitting i havent read every post on this thread. That said, my x was perscribed adderall by kur pcp and she completely changed within a few weeks of taking it. I have no doubt it kicked something off in her and as far as i know shes still taking it. Sadly we just have to accept there is nothing we can do for them cuz THEY DONT WANT OUT HELP. We could have the exact answer that would fix everything and it wouldnt matter... They dont want to be fixed and if they did we are the last people they would want the answer from. Gotta step away and let her go Thundarr.
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Mine was early menopausing , 39, seeing shrinks,counselors, popping all kinds of junk, deeply depressed and also back to smoking heaps of dope.
Dope alone usually sent her into serious tail spins especially if she kept at it but on top of all the rest , l hate to think where her head was when she dropped bd.
But l know to she's still popping heaps of stuff 2yrs non stop, right through all this so , these days l'm starting to think any of that was nothing to do with this. She just wanted out then regardless and apparently she still does so , damned if l know.
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T, love you dude. Am traveling, so briefly, I was worried it had been too long and you took it wrong! I seldom post since no one knows me anymore, and even when they did I pissed off people too much. I am you T, with boobs, I know the tendencies and the pitfalls and my friends keep me in line ;-)... Keep it real!
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T, love you dude. Am traveling, so briefly, I was worried it had been too long and you took it wrong! I seldom post since no one knows me anymore, and even when they did I pissed off people too much. I am you T, with boobs, I know the tendencies and the pitfalls and my friends keep me in line ;-)... Keep it real!
:) :) :) ;) 8)
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I was also expecting an interesting debate thread. Turns out you are trying to fix your wife, Thundarr. Also, that is a link for Fox News, hardly the most impartial and credible news outlet out there.
I'm not going to dispute that antidepressants, or other meds, can provoke mood and/or personality alterations. Nor that doctors, and that includes psychiatrist, can misdiagnose a mental disorder, but you are all over the place T.
Your wife has a doctor, and, like others have said, it is dangerous to go off antidepressants cold turkey. What you have wrote about your wife pre BD is pretty much MLC script. Remember that MLC mimics bipolar.
So, yes, all that you need to do is nothing. Can you stop trying to rule and control your wife's life?
Thunder, Bipolar, being a mod disorder, can appear, and be diagnosed at any age. Personality disorders are the ones who do not show up (or hardly ever) after early 20's.
OP, a friend of mine of is a psychiatrist, did a study and essay on Abilify (aripiprazole) on bipolar and, yes, it seems to be effective. But Abilify is not an antidepressant, it is an anti-psychotic. The other med who seems to have good results in bipolar is lamotrigine, a mood stabilizer.
Zoloft is an antidepressant. Sometimes bipolar (and other conditions) require a combination of all this times of meds and some others. Also, as I think you all know, the types of meds have different substances and people react differently to each substance, or combination of substances. And, of course, dosage.
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Interesting to read along here. MLC mimics bi-polar and NPD and so it is confusing and I can see how people diagnose their MLCers, a therapist friend asked me if my H was bi-polar shortly after BD because she saw his behaviour as manic. If you read that post from R2T describing a first manic episode that really could be the MLC at the beginning couldn't it? I have read a great deal about Narcissistic Personality Disorder and was concerned that my h is actually NPD. I think that the Narcissistic behaviours I have seen and see are a result of a midlife crisis and not something that has always been the case, but I still worry. As you say Anj, PD are diagnosed in early adulthood.
I understand your inquisitiveness and need to understand the riddle of midlife crisis Thundarr, for many of us this is why we are here. R2Ts post resonated with me, I have weeks where I am detached and focussed on me and then I have this blip where I find myself reading all sorts online!
The grieving process is long, as is MLC. I am 3 and half years in and still grieving. I am sometimes still preoccupied by thoughts of my MLCer and somedays miss him terribly. There is not a day that goes by when I don't think of him and what happened. I have two small kids so the reminder is constant. (reading that back sounds like a person who has lost a close loved one, someone working their way through the grieving process!!!) I can see that detaching and letting our MLCers live their own lives, is all that we can do. Thundarr you seem to have lots of contact with your MLCer and it sounds like there has been movement so it seems like you can be there for her and advise her on things. But I agree with others, advising to stop medication cold turkey is dangerous and I see their advice of waiting for someone to come to you for help is the best way to go.
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Thundarr,
My W,also, has been on ADs for 10 plus years. I do think they cause issues over the long term. ADs FOR LIFE is not the intended usage plan for them, and yet, more and more of us are hooked on them. Americans love the simple solution of taking a pill. If a pill existed to lose weight, they would take. A pill for sex, sign us up. A pill to make us happy, the line goes around the block. Too bad the only pills we have make us not AS SAD as before.
My more generalized view is that a person willing to take a pill to solve a depression issue, AND DO NOTHING ELSE, is a person that has no desire to get to the root of their issues. This may be a red flag for a person headed into an MLC. By ALL MEANS, if you are prescribed the Rx, use it. But don't fall for the "a pill will fix it" lie that big Pharma loves to sell us. Go dig at the roots of the problem, and have a plan to come back off the meds.
The changes I would advocate is to tie AD prescription issuance to some mental health care; maybe restrict long term RX from GPs -- but that would hurt big Pharma's earning engines -- not a chance that will happen.
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elray, it's funny you would say this. I briefly went on AD's years ago when my kids were little but I had no idea I was depressed. Didn't know what was wrong, I was just so very tired all the time.
After being on them for 10 days I felt like a black curtain had lifted and I saw the problem/problems and worked them out. Never took them again.
So yes if you need them, take them. But as elray said don't stay on them, fix the problem/problems. Face them and work them out.
I would expect most people on here are taking them to get over the shock and sadness of their marriage breaking up. It's ok to use them for that if it helps you cope but then do things to get yourself healthy again. Work on YOUR happiness. :)