Midlife Crisis: Support for Left Behind Spouses

Archives => Archived Topics => Topic started by: HeartTattoo on May 24, 2015, 12:50:34 PM

Title: Links/blogs/articles for us all to share 4
Post by: HeartTattoo on May 24, 2015, 12:50:34 PM
http://www.ted.com/talks/esther_perel_rethinking_infidelity_a_talk_for_anyone_who_has_ever_loved

This link has been traveling around over several threads, but I wanted to post it here & since the old "Links/blogs/articles" thread had 15 pages, I thought I'd start a new thread.

Old thread is here-- http://mlcforum.theherosspouse.com/index.php?topic=2790.0
Title: Re: Links/blogs/articles for us all to share 4
Post by: bookwrmmom on May 24, 2015, 03:42:39 PM
So glad I finally had the time to listen to that. Sounds like my life!
Title: Re: Links/blogs/articles for us all to share 4
Post by: Bailmor on May 24, 2015, 04:00:58 PM
I watched this the other day and found myself shaking my head quite a bit.  It was a great video to watch to confirm what a MLCer is thinking and or doing.   
Title: Re: Links/blogs/articles for us all to share 4
Post by: Anjae on May 24, 2015, 06:57:36 PM
I've listed to it. What Ester Perel says in her talk has been said a million times by many of us here on the board.

Also, she is talking about normal affairs, not about MLC. MLC is totally different than an affair. It includes an affair/infidelity but it is not an affair.

She says of the affair “there is a single act of transgression", that she then adds can destroy a marriage. In MLC there are a million acts of transgression and sometimes the affair in itself is not the worst one.

“a secretive relationship”, not in MLC. MLCers live with OW/OM and that does not end the no longer secretive relationship.

“the fact that you can never have your lover keeps you wanting, that in itself is a desire machine”, again, does not apply to MLC. MLCer live with the lover. For years on end in many cases. They marry the affair partner, they have children with the affair partner.

To me, talks or articles about normal affairs are of little use for MLC. The MLCer is not going to want to solve things, is not going the affair once it is on the open.

Also, MLCer drag LBS to courts, cut us off financially, you name it. It is a totally different game.

I take for her talk that, one way or another, pretty much everyone is going to cheat, since cheating/infidality can be many different things.

The other thing I take from her talk, since there is a duality between the one that is hurt and feels betrayed (the one that is cheated upon) and the one who grows and learns (the cheater), that maybe one needs to be on both sides of the fence to really understand the feeling of both sides.

The affair it not created by imagination, it is created by hormones and brain chemicals. The neurobiology of an affair is a well known thing. Proust was a writer. But one could consider that the neurobiology of the affair could be understand as imagination.

Healing from a spouse's MLC is a million times more difficult than healing from a normal affair.
Title: Re: Links/blogs/articles for us all to share 4
Post by: xyzcf on May 24, 2015, 07:09:12 PM
Quote
“a secretive relationship”, not in MLC. MLCers live with OW/OM and that does not end the no longer secretive relationship.

Quote
MLCer live with the lover. For years on end in many cases. They marry the affair partner, they have children with the affair partner.

I don't think that you can say this about all MLCers. Many have kept the OW secret for years, even after they divorce, even after they leave for various reasons.

She was not specifically referring to MLC but that doesn't mean that the LBSer does not experience similar feelings as someone's partner who cheats but is not in MLC. I could really relate to what she was saying for my situation.
Title: Re: Links/blogs/articles for us all to share 4
Post by: Anjae on May 24, 2015, 08:18:28 PM
OK, maybe I should have said most MLCers. But how many in this board have MLCer who have lived in secret for years on end with their OW/OM? They have keep the affair a secret for a while, sometimes years, but once it gets in the open, it does not die.

And if it does, they jump to the next OW/OM. The MLCer parading OW/OM is one the things RCR talks about and that many of us have seen happening. MLCers want a relationship with OW/OM, not to keep them a secret forever.

I cannot recall here in the board whose husband has keep the OW a secret for years after he has left and even divorce. Maybe some members have such MLCers, but pretty much every story tends to start with "I do not believe there is OW in my situation" to change into "he just got has OW" or "he is just living with OW".

Granted, some MLCers never have OW/OM, but those are not having and affair.

I can't really relate. I'm not dealing with a husband who had an affair. I'm dealing with a man who had been living with OW for nearly 6 years and who has been with her for practically 7 years. That is hardly a situation where the desire that comes with the secret can be sustained.

I'm also dealing with a man that stops at nothing from lying to court, etc. Most cheaters will admit to the cheating, let alone in court, let alone when there is a stack of black & white evidence before their eyes proving the situation.

It was not from an affair that I had to deal from. The affair was a small part of it. Is OW2 and affair? She was never a secret, they never meet in secret, that thing does not seem to end. She is pretty much the person Mr J choose to be with. They are not having an affair, they are living together, having a relationship, while he still happens to be legally married to me.

That is the other difference. In a normal affair, affair partners do not tend to live together. That would spoil the affair. In MLC they live with someone else while married to another. For me there is a huge difference between and affair and living with someone while married.

I probably do not even want to know why would someone who looks utterly miserable and is always drunk says he is happy and wants to stay in such relationship. Nothing to do with coming back to the marriage (there is no marriage to come back to, there hasn't been one for many years), just too complicated for me to understand why to remain in drunk and unhappiness land for so long.
Title: Re: Links/blogs/articles for us all to share 4
Post by: Ready2Transform on May 25, 2015, 03:52:24 PM
I get what you're saying Anjae about how this doesn't cover the experience of the MLC LBS as a whole, but I agree with xyz too that, when just compartmentalizing the affair portion of the MLC, this really speaks to many aspects of my experience. One of the best things I've seen so far in putting a healthy voice to this (though having to process it alone makes it far different than if we were a reconciling couple). "Staying is the new shame." True words.
Title: Re: Links/blogs/articles for us all to share 4
Post by: ruggedendurance on May 25, 2015, 06:04:27 PM
I cannot recall here in the board whose husband has keep the OW a secret for years after he has left and even divorce. Maybe some members have such MLCers, but pretty much every story tends to start with "I do not believe there is OW in my situation" to change into "he just got has OW" or "he is just living with OW

I never believe xw was having an affair.   I was never jealous.   I was never suspecting.   After she ran out of here and I found out about her "secret" phone........... I still never suspected an affair..

Well.   She had been dating this jackwagon for several months before she stormed out.......  Then.   About a month ago.  I am trying to find a suit coat to wear to my mothers funeral service and I find a cashmere coat that I haven't worn in quite some time.

When I put it on....... it doesn't fit.    I check the pockets and it has a business card from one of her old boyfriends.   It has some receipts from 2009......  3yrs before bd.........

So.   I could put up with an incident of casual sex.    She was drunk and caught up in the moment.  Or some such nonsense.   I could understand that.

Cheating?    Running around?   Inviting ex-boyfriends to the house?

It is just too much....
Title: Re: Links/blogs/articles for us all to share 4
Post by: Anjae on May 25, 2015, 06:14:20 PM
...when just compartmentalizing the affair portion of the MLC, this really speaks to many aspects of my experience.

But even when it comes to the affair part, in MLC is is only valid for the very early stages of the affair. Then it no longer applies.

...(though having to process it alone makes it far different than if we were a reconciling couple).

But that is the thing, even if we were reconciling we could never only just process the affair situation. The affair would be a tiny portion of the whole. Also, the length of time that goes by. It is one thing to process, and start to work on the couple/marriage/relationship when the affair is found out. It is another to try to process/do the work many years down the road when we know perfectly well what our spouse has been up to.

"Staying is the new shame." True words.

Sort of. I dare say pretty much all of us were willing to stay, and wanted our MLCer to stay when the affair/the first affair was found out. But there is no staying with a MLCer, even if the LBS would want to.

And I know couples who stayed together after a normal affair.
Title: Re: Links/blogs/articles for us all to share 4
Post by: Anjae on May 25, 2015, 06:19:09 PM
rugge, most of our spouses star conducting their affairs in secret. That is the normal nature of affairs.

The difference is our spouses carry on having the affair, or affairs, in pubic. Even going so far as to live with the affair partner. Or to marry the affair partner.

Some of us suspecte something was going on, others didn't. But none of our spouses did what people who have affairs tend to do, try to sort it out, especially is the cheated part is willing to accept that their spouse had an affair and still wants to be married.

Our spouses just left. Be it after 3 years or 6 months of a secret affair. Gone. At least until the MLC, or the Replay part of it, is over. Which may take several years.
Title: Re: Links/blogs/articles for us all to share 4
Post by: LisaLives on May 26, 2015, 06:45:01 AM
I think she totally summarizes an MLC affair in this talk, and HP points out those pieces here:

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2015/05/21/why-happy-people-cheat_n_7317812.html?utm_hp_ref=divorce&ir=Divorce

She talks about how in turning to an affair, we are not as much turning from our partner, but turning away from the person we have become, and that an affair is an antidote to death.  I think that is it, in a nutshell.  And the drug/addiction part of it that is fed by secrecy IS part of an MLC affair, it is what propels them to go off and live with the OP.  The difference between "just an affair" and an MLC affair, is that some people realize the stupidity of it sooner and face the music.  MLCers don't.  Or if they do, they keep "drug seeking."  Mine may have gotten over OW addiction, but she still offers him a NEW LIFE, there are things he is doing that he never would have done with me--the new job, new boat, new house...  He is still seeking the escape from "deadness" that she talks about.  Good stuff, thanks for posting.  Love and light, ll
Title: Re: Links/blogs/articles for us all to share 4
Post by: 31andcounting on May 26, 2015, 06:58:54 AM
Attaching :)
31
Title: Re: Links/blogs/articles for us all to share 4
Post by: Anjae on May 26, 2015, 07:05:44 PM
She talks about how in turning to an affair, we are not as much turning from our partner, but turning away from the person we have become, and that an affair is an antidote to death.  I think that is it, in a nutshell.

That is her vision of what affairs are. I think it will also depend of a person's age. I doubt that those in their 20's are using an affair as an antidote to death. Maybe more like a thrill and just for sex. For me affairs are more connected to the idea of fun than of death. But I understand her point of view.

And the drug/addiction part of it that is fed by secrecy IS part of an MLC affair, it is what propels them to go off and live with the OP.  The difference between "just an affair" and an MLC affair, is that some people realize the stupidity of it sooner and face the music.  MLCers don't.  Or if they do, they keep "drug seeking." 

Yes, the secrecy is the drug. But the secrecy drug ends when the affair is made public. Most, like you said, realise pretty quick it was all a mistake and a stupidity, MLCers don't. Also, most people in affairs have no intention of leaving their marriage. MLCer almost always, if not always, want to leave the marriage.

Mine may have gotten over OW addiction, but she still offers him a NEW LIFE, there are things he is doing that he never would have done with me--the new job, new boat, new house...  He is still seeking the escape from "deadness" that she talks about. 

Why wouldn't your husband have done the new job, boat and house with you? You disapprove of those things, or were they things you were also interested in, but never happened?

With me, at first, I did not mind with Mr J djing. But I think he realise that, at a point, I would had enough of that life and would not be up to have a husband who is always clubbing. I love to dance, but not on that type of clubs. Also, being the DJ wife or girlfriend is a drag. You will dance alone, or with friends, you either remain home while he is at the club or have to spend night after night at the club staring at your husband. Not for me, thank you very much.

So, Mr J new life is of no interest to me. I could be argued that, yes, if he had stayed home, didn't had his MLC, he would not be at the club. In fact, he knew it. He has said that he only had now (now being 2006) to do this (being a DJ). Guess he never realise how addictive the whole thing was going to become nor how long now was going to be.

Mr J OWs are just furniture. OW1 left him when she realised he was not going to give up clubbing and be the good family man she thought he was. OW2 I have no idea why she stays around. They meet clubbing, so they may also still like it.
Title: Re: Links/blogs/articles for us all to share 4
Post by: paradigmshift on May 26, 2015, 07:22:06 PM

Mine may have gotten over OW addiction, but she still offers him a NEW LIFE, there are things he is doing that he never would have done with me--the new job, new boat, new house...  He is still seeking the escape from "deadness" that she talks about. 

Why wouldn't your husband have done the new job, boat and house with you? You disapprove of those things, or were they things you were also interested in, but never happened?


Mine bought the OW stuff that I had always wanted but he refused to get me. Went with the OW to a country that he was sick of going to with me. Probably did a lot of other stuff he wouldn't do with me.

Whatever. Have a great life. Not.
Title: Re: Links/blogs/articles for us all to share 4
Post by: Ready2Transform on May 26, 2015, 09:12:22 PM
Mine may have gotten over OW addiction, but she still offers him a NEW LIFE, there are things he is doing that he never would have done with me--the new job, new boat, new house...  He is still seeking the escape from "deadness" that she talks about. 

This resonates with me so much. And it's not about the job, the house, per se, it's the IDENTITY. Like they're in witness protection (witless protection?  ;) ;D). Mine is so much the opposite of who he was before, it's eerie. New example: always wore vintage high end watches (had a knack for finding great deals at antique malls). Mid-century Omega, Elgin, nice things! Now he literally wears a Mickey Mouse watch. Took a photo of it! I had one...when I was seven! But OW is a middle-aged Disney freak, so here we are. THIS is what she offers. Not only a second teenaged experience, but a second childhood. And she's older (crisis of her own, or just cray cray?).
Title: Re: Links/blogs/articles for us all to share 4
Post by: twiceburnt on May 26, 2015, 11:03:23 PM
I do like her comment that affairs in the digital age are like "a death by 1,000 cuts".  Although, with MLC, I think it is more like 1 million cuts.
Title: Re: Links/blogs/articles for us all to share 4
Post by: CallanG on May 27, 2015, 12:57:07 AM

I think she makes a lot of sense and put the information across really well . Although she never mentions MLC crisis she talked about running away from SELF which is pretty much what we are dealing with .
Title: Re: Links/blogs/articles for us all to share 4
Post by: LisaLives on May 27, 2015, 05:58:14 AM
Mine may have gotten over OW addiction, but she still offers him a NEW LIFE, there are things he is doing that he never would have done with me--the new job, new boat, new house...  He is still seeking the escape from "deadness" that she talks about. 

This resonates with me so much. And it's not about the job, the house, per se, it's the IDENTITY. Like they're in witness protection (witless protection?  ;) ;D). Mine is so much the opposite of who he was before, it's eerie. New example: always wore vintage high end watches (had a knack for finding great deals at antique malls). Mid-century Omega, Elgin, nice things! Now he literally wears a Mickey Mouse watch. Took a photo of it! I had one...when I was seven! But OW is a middle-aged Disney freak, so here we are. THIS is what she offers. Not only a second teenaged experience, but a second childhood. And she's older (crisis of her own, or just cray cray?).

It's what replay is, the running away from themselves.  And she captures the triggers also--she notes that affairs often follow a traumatic "life" event, a death, an illness...  I think MOST of us find ourselves in those places, several times in our lives, when we just want to run away or change something, and some of us to, change jobs, careers, friends, neighborhoods.  Some people are so vested in their "façade" that they can't or won't admit they want to change something, so they have affairs. 

If you combine this talk with some of Helen Fischer's on how "love" is no different in brain activity than cocaine addiction, it all makes sense.  MLCers are simply addicts of a different kind.  Some of them do become drug or gambling addicts, but some simply seek that same high with a new woman and all the new stimulation she can offer.  As a 5-year veteran, I am also no longer surprised by the number of seasoned LBSs who find out seven to ten years later that BD did not reveal his first dalliance, just the one that finally broke him.  Which, in many ways, truly confirms that it is not the OW, it is the MLC, she is just a piece of his nightmare, not the reason or the cure, just another tragedy...  Infidelity is way more common than we think, and most instances do not break marriages, but in MLC they are an easy way out for a person desperate for a new path.  Interesting stuff...     
Title: Re: Links/blogs/articles for us all to share 4
Post by: Stillpraying on May 29, 2015, 01:58:49 AM
Another interesting article by Rick Reynolds of 'Affair Recovery'
https://www.affairrecovery.com/newsletter/founder/infidelity-justifications-of-the-unfaithful?utm_source=Article+of+the+Week&utm_campaign=2665b83000-aotw_05_28_2015&utm_medium=email&utm_term=0_ba782628b7-2665b83000-312831325

Below is a discussion between myself and one of my clients, Amy, explaining her rationale behind her affair:

“When we first met, my affair partner asked if I’d ever considered modeling.Are you kidding? I asked him. I’m a married woman and mother of four, so of course I was flattered, but unfortunately the exchange didn’t stop there. Compliments, along with seeking my advice on personal issues, began a conversation that captured my heart and I found myself having an affair.”

“Did you feel bad about what you were doing?” I asked her.

“No, I just kept telling myself if I really loved my husband, how could I feel this way about my affair partner? I never had feelings like that for my husband, which meant this guy had to be my soul mate. How could it be wrong if we cared so much?”

What are the ways of thinking that help contribute to infidelity? It’s impossible to explore all the ways people justify their actions, but we’ll explore a few and you can determine if the way you think about your relationship puts you at risk.


Justifications: These thought patterns push away guilt and allow the wayward spouse to deceive themselves into thinking they have little or no responsibility for their choices.


I married the wrong person.

It’s amazing how many people discover they married the wrong person once they are having an affair. There is no way long-term relationships can compare with the hot flame of stage-one relationships. Unmet expectations often leave partners feeling they somehow made a mistake. We forget it’s about how well we love, not about how our mate makes us feel about ourselves.


I found my soul mate.

How can you deny “True Love”? In a culture raised on Disney films, love may seem like the best justification of all. Don’t all cravings and desires need to be fulfilled? Far too often the consequences of infidelity are buried under the fantasy of falling in love, with little or no regard for those who have first rights to us. We fail to see the selfishness of seeking our own happiness at the expense of our mate and forget they’ve continued to be with us even after the hot flames of romance have settled into glowing embers.


It’s okay, as long as I’m careful not to get caught.

Thinking others won’t be hurt as long as you keep it a secret may push away feelings of guilt, but infidelity is never without consequences. The very definition of infidelity is the keeping of secrets while intimacy means “into-me-see”. It’ a willingness to be fully known and to fully know another. How can that happen as long as you’re keeping secrets? Whether or not you get caught doesn’t change the disconnection that occurs for your mate as you close yourself off to them in order to give yourself to another.


I love my mate, but I’m no longer in love.

This justification is based on the premise that marriage is about being “in love”. Marriage requires couples to develop a vision of love that lasts a lifetime. As mentioned before, marriage isn’t based on feelings, but rather on choice and commitment. It’s easy to stay with someone if you love the way they make you feel or if you’re obsessed with having them. But when life’s hard and your mate disappoints, unless you have a deeper understanding of love, it won’t be long until the justification of “being in love” will come into play.


God doesn’t want me to be miserable.

If you believe marriage is primarily about happiness, then misery becomes a natural justification for infidelity. Marriage isn’t about happiness; it’s about love and commitment. Certainly we hope to find happiness through our relationships, but it’s not always guaranteed. As Charles d!ckens once wrote, “In every life, no matter how full or empty one's purse, there is tragedy. It is the one promise life always fulfills. Thus, happiness is a gift and the trick is not to expect it but to delight in it when it comes and to add to other people's store of it.”1 I’m certainly not saying all marriages can or should be saved, but misery doesn’t justify infidelity. Two people can be in the same miserable marriage, but normally only one of them will have an affair. What keeps the other spouse from cheating if cheating is driven by misery? Frequently it’s a thing called commitment. I once heard someone say, “When my marriage is good and I like my wife, my commitment is to my wife. When my marriage is good, but my wife and I aren’t getting along, my commitment is to my marriage. And if my marriage is bad, then my commitment is to my commitment.”


I never had sex with the other person, so it doesn’t count..

At times extramarital involvement is a matter of fancy moral accounting. Some people justify their infidelity by convincing themselves they never cheated. As long as they don’t break their own self-generated rules regarding extramarital involvement, then they avoid feeling like they’ve done anything wrong. While these people are committed to stay, they are not committed not to stray. For instance a man may abstain from intercourse, but feel free to participate in oral sex since he’s not breaking his “moral code”. In his mind, he’s not really “having an affair”. Or a woman may divulge her inner-most thoughts and feelings to a man at work while leaving her spouse only cold remarks and shallow insights. If she doesn’t register an emotional affair as “counting” as infidelity, she frees herself to continue her behavior without remorse. While this justification may allow for the unfaithful mate to avoid guilt, it won’t protect their mate from feelings of betrayal.


Monogamy just isn’t natural.

Once you’ve strayed why choose to stay? If you don’t believe monogamy is natural, why get married in the first place? Most people don’t get married intending to stray, but once they’ve been unfaithful it becomes all too easy to adopt this new belief to push away responsibility. When people justify betrayal, they avoid taking personal responsibility for their choices and continue living in the illusions of their own self-deception. On the other hand, when someone makes excuses such as “I was drunk” or “I was just flirting” at least they don’t deny having done something wrong.


It’s much easier to justify our failures than to honestly look at what we’ve done. Recovery isn’t just about stopping harmful behaviors; it’s about learning to see it differently. Until I can honestly examine my behavior and its impact on self and others, I can’t begin to move forward. As long as I see my behavior through the distorted lens of my justifications, I’ll continue living in the problem. Once I honestly accept my choices I can begin living in the solution. To err is human, but to do it again is foolish. Right thinking goes a long way in avoiding foolishness.


In this journey, healed individuals are vital guides. If we can’t juxtapose our thinking against those who have found new life, we’ll likely stay trapped in our own self-deception. If you want perspective, at least be open to talking to someone safe and someone who is willing to walk with you though the process. At Affair Recovery, we provide a way to gain expert insight and perspective through our online courses and our in-person, EMS Weekend Intensives.


Just get help somewhere. Don’t make the mistake of thinking you can get yourself out of the mess you got yourself into. It hasn’t worked in the past, and it won’t work now. There is hope and you can heal, just don’t do it alone.



1. d!ckens, Charles. Nicholas Nickleby. London: Cassell, 1890. Print
Title: Re: Links/blogs/articles for us all to share 4
Post by: Songanddance on May 29, 2015, 04:23:17 AM
http://www.healingafteraffairs-bloomington.info/infidelity/trauma-of-infidelity.html
Title: Re: Links/blogs/articles for us all to share 4
Post by: 31andcounting on May 29, 2015, 06:55:04 AM
Songanddance~   WOW WOW WOW!!!
Lots of good stuff in that article. Thanks for posting.  It is a wonder that any of us survive this!!  We are strong aren't we?
(hugs)
31andcounting
Title: Re: Links/blogs/articles for us all to share 4
Post by: Ready2Transform on May 29, 2015, 07:08:45 AM
This part is what stands out most to me:

Quote
As long as I see my behavior through the distorted lens of my justifications, I’ll continue living in the problem. Once I honestly accept my choices I can begin living in the solution.

I think that answers a biggie for a lot of LBS as to "If they're unhappy with the OP, or their new life isn't working the way they thought it would, why do they stay?". When they can't see what they've really done, they won't be able to see how they can fix it. Just like junkies!

I also think fear of the unknown works at either side of the tunnel. They stay because they don't know what will happen when they leave. But once they've got a vision, albeit a fairy tale one, of what life with the OP will be like, the pull of that is stronger than the commitment to stay. Enter justifications. And they see us as being okay (if they see us) so it all worked out. If we're too broken, they just don't look.

Then the new life is bad, but there's fear of the unknown as to how to get out of it. We're not presenting the same prize in waiting that the OP was, and I think that's why there are so many multiple OPs and a continuance to running.
Title: Re: Links/blogs/articles for us all to share 4
Post by: Songanddance on May 29, 2015, 07:25:52 AM
Thank you 31 but I cannot take the credit. It was on another personal thread and I thought it was too good not to share a little more widely. So I copied and pasted the link.
Title: Re: Links/blogs/articles for us all to share 4
Post by: Stillpraying on May 29, 2015, 06:04:23 PM
Couldn't agree more R2T.
My exH has constantly had 'someone in the wings'....the new fantasy life lined up....before making the leap out of his current relationship.  And each time the justification is "OP has 'Issues with their past'...." ::) ::) ::) ::) ::) ::)

Title: Re: Links/blogs/articles for us all to share 4
Post by: Anjae on May 29, 2015, 07:48:29 PM
Interesting articles, Songanddance and Stillpraying.

Infidelity is a shock. The type of betrayal we deal with in MLC is a shock multiplied by a million.

Stillpraying, I've merged your thread with this running one.

The thing is, until the MLCer stops and wants help, nothing can be done. And some non monogamous people do marry, but even those do not expect emotional infidelity.

Fear of the unknown probably is one reason MLCer stick around OW/OM. But does stand for those who jump from OW/OM to OW/OM? It is always unknown how it will work out.

Not to mention MLCers leave jobs they knew for jobs, or a life, they do not know.

And they really know nothing about the OW/OM. It is all a bit complicated.

Wouldn't be alone, since the relationship with OW/OM is not good, and option? Apparently not for a MLCer.

Title: Re: Links/blogs/articles for us all to share 4
Post by: FacePalm on May 30, 2015, 04:43:37 AM
Stillpraying - that justification article resonated with me.  My wife had an EA (maybe PA, will never know) for ~6-12 months last year.  She uttered almost every single one of those justifications.   The one that still burns me is that she called the OM her "soulmate."  I used to hold that position, but not anymore.  Although I've worked to forgive her, forgive myself, and detach, I still get anxious whenever her head is buried in her phone or when she goes out at night.  I'm still dealing with the PTSD-like ripples of having someone I trusted use pre-pay phones, fake Facebook accounts, and email to connect with another man.  Even though it was an affair down (waaaaaayyyy down) and it fell apart (as predicted, they don't speak any longer) I still have difficulty shaking the hurt from the lies, broken trust, and betrayal. 
Title: Re: Links/blogs/articles for us all to share 4
Post by: Stillpraying on May 30, 2015, 05:57:07 AM
Hi Facepalm.
My exH is on his 3rd OW and he uses those justifications each time he moves on.  He's even told the kids and I some of them about the OWs...

Rick Reynolds has a lot of great articles.  They are emailed to me.  I think you can sign up if you are interested.  he was the betrayer in his own marriage but now does work with other couples to restore and heal theirs after an affair.  Not necessarily MLC but it is insightful stuff on relationships etc
Title: Re: Links/blogs/articles for us all to share 4
Post by: forthetrees on June 01, 2015, 02:53:36 PM
This is from today´s NYTimes- an article about this woman and her foray into getting people to talk about sexuality. She did a viral TED talk in 2013. (Esther Perel)

Ms. Perel still sees clients, but these days is only taking on new ones who have experienced infidelity, which is the subject of her next book, to be published by HarperCollins at a still-unspecified date. Her approach so far is both empathetic and a little provocative. “Not every infidelity is a symptom of a problem in a relationship,” she said. “Sometimes it has to do with other longings that are much more existential. Sometimes you go elsewhere not because you are not liking the one you are with; you are not liking the person you have become.”

Title: Re: Links/blogs/articles for us all to share 4
Post by: kikki on June 04, 2015, 04:19:33 AM
Halleluja for Ms Perel. 

Here's something which furthers the discussion around the subject of infidelity and shame.
Relevant to LBS who are reconciling.

https://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/the-squeaky-wheel/201505/3-facts-everyone-needs-know-about-couples-and-affairs?utm_source=FacebookPost&utm_medium=FBPost&utm_campaign=FBPost



Title: Re: Links/blogs/articles for us all to share 4
Post by: Songanddance on June 28, 2015, 04:11:58 AM
http://www.kcl.ac.uk/ioppn/news/records/2015/June/Childhood-trauma-gets-under-the-skin.aspx
Title: Re: Links/blogs/articles for us all to share 4
Post by: HeartTattoo on July 01, 2015, 08:18:25 PM
These links seem relevant to MLC behaviors.  Challenge may be for society to recognize MLC behaviors as abnormal, instead of "following your bliss" or "unhappiness in your marriage" or "finally finding your soulmate".


http://www.webmd.com/depression/news/20150630/scans-suggest-recurrent-depression-may-take-toll-on-the-brain?ecd=soc_fb_07012015_recurrentdepressionmaytaketollonbrain

http://gizmodo.com/5874433/the-pill-that-could-cure-depression-by-growing-your-brain

Title: Re: Links/blogs/articles for us all to share 4
Post by: kikki on July 16, 2015, 10:38:50 PM
Quote
According to the researchers, that suggests that it is recurring depression that takes a toll on brain anatomy.

The take-home message: Get depression diagnosed and treated before brain changes can occur, the Australian team said.

"This large study confirms the need to treat first episodes of depression effectively, particularly in teenagers and young adults, to prevent the brain changes that accompany recurrent depression," Hickie said in a university news release.

Good to see our hunches being proven.
Title: Re: Links/blogs/articles for us all to share 4
Post by: Savoir Faire on July 17, 2015, 06:59:36 AM
Interesting articles.  The other sad fact to consider is that the longer the brain remains out of chemical balance as it is in MLC, the more likely the person is to develop dementia later in life.  A sobering fact indeed.

We will not know if this is true for many years but all the evidence points to some early onset dementia in the MLCer - what a terrible thing, to come out of the crisis and then to REALLY forget everything.

I hate to even think it seems karmic.  Even in patients where there is no family history of dementia, the disease is thought to be inevitable because of the long term depression.
Title: Re: Links/blogs/articles for us all to share 4
Post by: HeartTattoo on July 17, 2015, 12:45:23 PM
Interesting articles.  The other sad fact to consider is that the longer the brain remains out of chemical balance as it is in MLC, the more likely the person is to develop dementia later in life.  A sobering fact indeed.
SF,

Very discouraging for me as H is 62 already, both parents having had dementia, & possibly a lifetime of covert depression.

So much research needs to be done!
Hugs,
HT
Title: Re: Links/blogs/articles for us all to share 4
Post by: kikki on July 17, 2015, 01:11:16 PM
Quote
The other sad fact to consider is that the longer the brain remains out of chemical balance as it is in MLC, the more likely the person is to develop dementia later in life.  A sobering fact indeed.

This really concerns me too.  There are a few pieces of information about this on our old neurotransmitter/brain scan threads.
Title: Re: Links/blogs/articles for us all to share 4
Post by: patience.of.a.saint on July 17, 2015, 10:18:45 PM
I have an aunt in the nursing home for dementia. It's very sad. I never would've guessed her to have depression, but the oddest thing is that I think she may have went through MLC. She was married for over 25 yrs to her first husband. Divorced him, but always kept his number handy. She married another man...divorced him too. Then she moved to our state and her first husband did too. He lived maybe 30 miles from her. He went to see her when she went in the nursing home, but by then, she didn't want him there...didn't want him to call. Not sure what has happened since then, but she has gone down hill ever since she was diagnosed with the dementia.

From the limited reading I have done on dementia, they can also get it from excess alcohol, which could also be possible for her. It would also make sense with the connection between alcohol and depression.

Very interesting.
Title: Re: Links/blogs/articles for us all to share 4
Post by: Songanddance on July 18, 2015, 06:29:07 AM
My mother had early dementia and died when she was 66. She was not depressed nor did she drink. She did smoke but stopped smoking when the first grandchild arrived  5 years prior to her death. However the sudden withdrawal of the nicotine started to have an adverse effect on her brain and she started to lose the ability to play the piano (degree level pianist), communicate in full sentences and for the last 18 months she started blacking out for a few seconds.

(She technically died of carcinoma of right lung. We had no idea she was so ill because she had lost the ability to talk coherently. )

Her brain when it couldn't get nicotine started to eat away at the oxygenated parts of her brain (bit like a slow caterpillar munching on a leaf) until there was very little coherence left.
This was an unusual form of dementia and ironically she became depressed as a result of the increasing dementia.
Title: Re: Links/blogs/articles for us all to share 4
Post by: 31andcounting on July 20, 2015, 06:24:52 AM
Wow, Songanddance I have never heard of that form....how terrible.
The dementia information is kind of scary.  Such a sad way to end and if someone had also lived a depressed life, wow not my idea of living really.    Leads to wonder if you "beat" or "handle" depression with the right meds you could live a happier earlier life and maybe it would keep the dementia away??  meaning if you "got your chemical imbalance" under control would that keep dementia from developing  ??  Maybe that info would keep stubborn people to take meds if they needed them??  just wondering?
31
Title: Re: Links/blogs/articles for us all to share 4
Post by: Songanddance on July 20, 2015, 08:46:52 AM
I would go further 31.  If Science would really take depression seriously and research the brain patterns and chemical imbalance more thoroughly - I venture to bet that they would find a chemical link between that and dementia.

Title: Re: Links/blogs/articles for us all to share 4
Post by: Thundarr on July 24, 2015, 07:44:15 AM
Thought this article was a bit interesting as it addresses inter-generational patterns of infidelity.

http://www.foxnews.com/health/2015/07/24/quickest-way-to-tell-if-your-partner-will-cheat/?intcmp=features
Title: Re: Links/blogs/articles for us all to share 4
Post by: Tsunami on July 24, 2015, 08:07:03 AM
http://www.marriageadvocates.com/ubbthreads/ubbthreads.php/topics/369666/Affair_partners_role_in_MLC_Ha
Title: Re: Links/blogs/articles for us all to share 4
Post by: Thunder on July 24, 2015, 08:57:31 AM
Thundarr,

She just may have something there.  Both my X's father and step father were awful men but neither of them cheated.  My X (so far) as not cheated.

My first H's father cheated and so did he.
Title: Re: Links/blogs/articles for us all to share 4
Post by: Mac49 on July 24, 2015, 09:47:30 AM
Crazy's family all were/are a bunch of cheaters

Mom, Step father, both brothers multiple times.

My three rules for future relationships

1. I or me statements - bub bye
2. Cheating in past - See ya
3. Control of intimacy/sex - Find some other sap to pull that crap on.

Mac
Title: Re: Links/blogs/articles for us all to share 4
Post by: Songanddance on July 24, 2015, 11:55:54 PM
Thanks Tsunami - very interesting blog and reassuring for newbies who might doubt the information they're given from time to time.
Title: Re: Links/blogs/articles for us all to share 4
Post by: a on September 13, 2015, 11:52:00 AM
Hi All

Found this article very interesting as i still ponder why i need my ex to be unhappy with OW and how he could move on without any real empathy or sorrow for what we had.

After reading this article i guess you could say i found another piece to this infinite jigsaw puzzle called life and how we as LBs's can move on from our need to find those evasive answers.

I hope this helps you too.

take care
Moment
_________________________________________________________________________________________________________
Why Good Things Happen To Bad People

Posted: 11/11/2011 7:08 pm EST Updated: 01/21/2012 5:12 am EST

"To he who is right in mind, he can do all the wrong things and it will still turn out right. To she who is wrong in mind, she can do all the right things and it will still turn out wrong."

As we watch the Wall Street rich get richer (many of whom created our economic crisis) while honest, hard-working people get poorer, a question naturally arises:

"Why do good things happen to bad people -- and so many bad things happen to good people?"

It sometimes feels like we're living in a perpetual opposite day, where "Love yourself not your neighbor" seems to be the golden rule and "Take and you shall receive" appears to be the principle of abundance. In the self-help/spiritual arena, the pain is felt even more acutely; where's karma, the law of cause and effect, the law of attraction? if you're a good human being, good stuff is supposed to happen to you, right?

Wrong.

It's a common misunderstanding to believe that "human goodness" leads to the experience of human good. In fact, that's not always -- or even often -- the case.

Here is the real principle of life: Consciousness is cause.

It's not so much the actions we take, but the consciousness behind them, that determines our experience. If a greedy person believes they're worthy or capable of creating wealth, they'll create it. If a generous and kind person doesn't feel worthy or abundant, they'll end up a broke do-gooder.

It's not personal, it's principle.

For every area of our life, we have certain set-points. For example, we might feel capable and confident with our work -- and hold a strong self-image about it -- but simultaneously harbor a limited identity and belief system around wealth. This can create an experience where we do great work, receive abundant kudos and are still underpaid. Or if we manage to increase our paycheck, our expenses increase with it -- making us broke at a higher income bracket!

This can also show up in the area of health. A person can do all the right things, eat all the right foods and still end up getting sick -- while another person eats whatever they want and hardly has a down day in their life. Don't you just hate those people?!

Some would argue that this is about genetics. But the latest discoveries in epigenetics reveal that genes don't control our body, the environment of the cell does. And what controls the environment of our cells?

Our consciousness.

This has been further shown in the science of psychoneuroimmunology, which explains how our thoughts become chemical and electrical impulses in our body, forming a biological alphabet that sends commands to our cells. Thoughts become things. Our biography becomes our biology.

Our consciousness is the cause of our reality.

If we take a deeper look at the do-gooder, striving to change the world for the better -- but getting short-changed themselves -- we'll find a belief system of limitation and fear. The inner talk might sound something like "life is hard, people are unfairly treated, things are unjust... " And that is the kind of life they experience, regardless of how much they "fight the good fight."

We don't get what we want -- or even what we pray for -- we get what we are in consciousness. Life is not fair, it's lawful. When a person eats a healthy meal, but underneath it is motivated by fear or self-loathing, the law of consciousness sees a fearful, self-loathing person and magnifies that, drawing more of that to them.

The universe is blind to your actions but acutely aware of the thoughts behind them.

This isn't to say that actions aren't important. Action is crucial to creation. As the saying goes, "Faith without works is dead." But the reverse is also true: "Works without faith are dead." By all means, act from your highest standard of good. But be sure to align yourself with an equally high state of consciousness.

If you find yourself saving money out of fear of loss, shift that perspective so you're saving from a state of inspiration and abundance -- you're saving "for" something, like financial freedom or a new house, rather than saving "from" something, like the fear of financial ruin or losing your house.

This week, pay closer attention to the consciousness behind your actions. Notice when what you say matches what you're thinking and feeling and when it doesn't. Become aware of when your actions are in alignment with your deeper beliefs and when they contradict them.

Take some time to journal about the beliefs, self-talk and emotions behind the key areas of your life -- particularly the ones where you're experiencing challenges. At the end of the week, review this. You'll discover that the picture you're seeing outside is a reflection -- if only faintly -- of the mental/emotional picture you're living inside. You'll also start to see the gap between what you're trying to create -- the actions you're taking -- and what you're really creating with your thoughts, feelings and mental images.

The awareness of this gap is the beginning of real change. Set the intention to close that gap. Work with this material daily. And as your thoughts, feelings, words and actions become in integrity with your highest vision, you'll become one of the "good people" who has good things happening... and you'll be unstoppable.

Until next time, Stay Inspired!

Derek Rydall
Title: Re: Links/blogs/articles for us all to share 4
Post by: Albatross on September 13, 2015, 01:13:50 PM
Don't be offended, but that article in my humble opinion is bull crap. To all people happens good, bad things. Point is what person is kin to record and remember. As Buddhism said good and bad is just aberration of something normal or if You like middle path. Each happening always have good and bad things in it, because individual are not cut off from the world. Any action have reaction same intensity and opposite force. Any object on light have shadow. Point is that One should embrace what happens and should not be judgmental at all. What is good and what is bad after all ?

Also optimists expect in majority future pending events something good which have no foundation in reality. So, they should be disappointed all the time after event happens. In other hand pessimists should be happy because odds for happening something better than they expect are big.
Title: Re: Links/blogs/articles for us all to share 4
Post by: a on September 14, 2015, 03:23:26 PM
Hi Albatross

No offence taken.  When the person you loved most in this world tears your heart out and causes you unimaginable pain you build a resilience where nothing anyone ever says or does to you again can ever compare to that which was done.  When you have survived that pain and come out the other side you get to realise that whatever anyone says or does whether its loving or hateful is a reflection of that person's state of mind and has absolutely nothing to do with you.

Wasn't it Shakespeare who said "there is no good or bad in this world, no right or wrong only judging makes it so" .  Anyway - the article - while it has a misleading title is not really referring to good and bad but rather to our state of mind/consciousness and so as an LBS i question my state of mind and what my intentions are - hence the article.  I think this article falls very much in line with the Buddhist philosophy of the middle way - of right doing and right thinking - it just expresses this middle way in a different way.  The essence of this article lies in this quote

"Our consciousness is the cause of our reality" - very much a Buddhist teaching

So my question is what reality are we as the LBS creating in order to appease our pain - what justifications are we giving ourselves to excuse our pain and to excuse our sense of justice?

I think this article highlights that we should start thinking differently - because as long as we remain in this trap of figuring out the MLCer we will not resolve our own suffering.  We often distract ourselves from knowing ourselves by looking to understand the unreasonable, looking to understand the MLCers who have long moved on.  We are often stuck in the past, focusing on the MLCer and we fail to live in the moment and recognise that we are worthy of happiness.  That i feel is the intention behind this article.  The intention to share this article was to help LBS's move on and take courage as they find a new way of thinking and a new way of being in the world.


Are you not just sick and tired of focusing on the MLCer?  Don't we just want to put this behind us and move forward with joy in our hearts?

Title: Re: Links/blogs/articles for us all to share 4
Post by: Ready2Transform on September 14, 2015, 07:02:38 PM
I agree with a lot of what you've said. And I believe thought holds a LOT of power. I've seen that work in my life.

Quote
Are you not just sick and tired of focusing on the MLCer?  Don't we just want to put this behind us and move forward with joy in our hearts?

Not everyone has this at the center of their lives, in all fairness. The repercussions of it are sometimes felt on a daily basis (those of us left with financial problems, though with clingers, those with shared custody). But I do believe that no matter what, we can have joy. In the middle of any storm, we can center ourselves and understand that we are not the storm - that we are going through it, but that it does not define us.

There are many roads to peace. For some it is spiritual and centering ourselves on this very thing. For some, scientific knowledge, psychological study, etc. will be the thing that gives us the peace that this truly "is not about us." We all get there in our own way. :)
Title: Re: Links/blogs/articles for us all to share 4
Post by: a on September 15, 2015, 03:05:54 AM
Hi R2T

I agree we do get there in our own way as long as we get there.  The last question i posed was more for my sake because i am tired of the focus being on the MLCer like everyone else my thoughts often veer in his direction and i am tired of it.  I guess that is why i am now searching for artciles like the one i posted because i hope to one day fully place the focus on myself and the people in my life who are honest and sincere, even if the MLCer is still to some extend physically present in my life.

I guess in my journey i am done - i no  longer want to know why or how could he or is he happy with ow or does ow make him miserable - i just don't care any more and i hate the fact that at times when i become aware of my thoughts i notice they have veered in his direction.  He has moved on and so should i which for me includes refocusing my thoughts when i realise they have veered towards him.

i guess like everyone else i am expressing my perspective - a good thing we all are different or the world would be a boring place.  I do wish all on this forum that they eventually find peace and love. 

Speaking of which the other day while driving down a very familiar road that was home to my memories of ex and i and happier times i caught myself thinking of him and realised that i no longer carry any pain or grief over loosing him.  I realised the only emotions i still had to work through was my anger and to a large extent my indifference and absolute inability to trust anything he ever said or did or still says and does.

anyway - its all good whatever we do, whatever we say as long as it comes from a place of sincere intention - thats all we can do :)
Title: Re: Links/blogs/articles for us all to share 4
Post by: Albatross on September 15, 2015, 05:36:58 AM
I can speak from my personal experience only. I love my wife what she were before crisis, I always loved her and I will always love her. But that person does not exists anymore. I feel sad for her and love her as any other human being on this planet. No more, no less.

Point is that part of my self is she, when You live with someone good, nice life 25 years, have family, kids, home, mutual friends and all of that fall apart, You have to be broken FOREVER. Why ? Because human being is very complicated, there is not only ego, consciousness, there is soul, there is subconsciousness, both of that is not reachable by ratio. Jung said it is possible but it is long and very hard process.

You cannot simply rip off all those memories, emotions. Part of Your psyche is Your spouse psyche. Same goes with them. It is like You survive huge accident and you survive, but Your body is severely damaged and would never fully recovered, your body is changed permanently, and Yes You become impaired physically. You can recover, but never completely. Your body and health would never be the same. It is just metaphor what happening to our psyche after MLC of our spouse.
Title: Re: Links/blogs/articles for us all to share 4
Post by: a on September 15, 2015, 11:25:58 AM
Hi Albatross

I get what you are saying, after 22 years how could ex not be part of my psyche - however i am going to give it all i have to remove him from entering my psyche on a daily basis.

I am determined to make new memories and new experiences that will eventually diminish any thoughts of ex.  It's like that movie "50 first dates', where each day the heroine's father paints over her creations from the previous night with a coat of white paint.  Each time i realise i am thinking of ex i will paint over the thought with my coat of white paint - until the day comes when i have lived more years without ex than i shared with him and those years will be marked by courage, resilience, sincerity compassion and love.  That is what i am going to aspire to do.

take care
Title: Re: Links/blogs/articles for us all to share 4
Post by: Albatross on September 15, 2015, 11:45:53 AM
With all respect, good luck with that, but I am think it is impossible. Human is like tree, whatever happens to the tree during a life can be seen on tree and in tree. How tree is big, how much scars have, all those scars from tree youth still remain, look even bigger. Our spouses hit MLC just because of that, they has bad experiences in childhood, FOO issues, impaired parents, God knows what, only they knows. How human beings are hardwired and everything in nature trying to use minimum energy, humans live huge majority of life on auto pilot. And that autopilot could be bad one which is made years since human born, some people develop bad, even maladaptive defense mechanisms and bad, even maladaptive coping mechanisms. All of that is made by long time of repetitive events which make our complexes, automatic parts of our self.

So, their coping skills and defense are huge and they perceive world as hostile. They cannot live anymore like that so they crash.

What I am trying to say is that people who aren't hurt badly or live in long time abuse could change self during life on evolute way. They could not. Same goes with normal people. We are severely damaged. Time could heal, but it is long and painful process. nevertheless we would never be completely healed.

In case that is possible, that method of healing would get Nobel prize.
Title: Re: Links/blogs/articles for us all to share 4
Post by: Songanddance on September 15, 2015, 12:38:18 PM
Quote
"there is no good or bad in this world, no right or wrong only judging makes it so"

Not exactly correct here - Hamlet says 
"Why then 'tis none to you; for there is nothing either good or
bad, but thinking makes it so. To me it is a prison."

Here he is talking about the state of Denmark.  Re-frame Denmark to mean your MLC situation and it still makes sense.

It is not judging that is the issue here but thinking.

Reading that article by Rydall - it appears to me to not be about good or bad things but about re-framing and using mindfulness as a healing mechanism.

Yes bad things happen to good people - most of us on here never thought we were bad people and deserved to have our worlds rocked sideways and inside out.  There is a point where we think perhaps if we hadn't done this or that... The "if only" syndrome as I call it.

It is about our thought processes and how they can hold us prisoner or how they can help us heal.

Mindfulness is the "in " thing here in the UK and suddenly businesses are being bombarded with mindful tutors hoping to be able to run mindful sessions for the employees. Mindful books abound as do CDs etc.....

Mindfulness is helpful but is not the cure.  Thinking and re-framing our thinking is what helps us move forward.

So Hamlet had it right.

Hamlet also said to his troupe of actors " To thine own self be true"  Interesting how Hamlet himself applied that maxim so precisely that it caused his destruction.  However we LBSers must be true to ourselves for at the end of the day or MLC tunnel - that is all we actually have - nothing more.  Maybe a mariage, maybe a returning H , maybe a divorce  who knows ......None of this will matter unless we are true to ourselves.
Title: Re: Links/blogs/articles for us all to share 4
Post by: Ready2Transform on September 15, 2015, 12:44:58 PM
I'm going to use the example of my parents' marriage to prove you are both right! :)

It was a bad marriage, but it lasted I think 26 years. There was a time for probably 3-4 years where, even after she was gone, my dad would bring her up on really a daily basis. It wasn't with love, but there was some real proof that the intertwining of their lives was still present, I guess you could say.

It's not that memories or things don't still come up now, but it is not common and it is not as it was. He still lives in the last house they bought together, but it very much has a different feel to it - it's HIS. Heck, Hoss and I lived in it when Dad was briefly married and living with someone else, and it felt different then, too, which was a long time ago. The ghost of that relationship past with his first wife, though, is put to rest.

All things change with time. That's everything! And it's not that they will be completely wiped out, like amnesia, but whatever our present dealing is with them at any time will shape our attitude and where we place those memories. If you're actively looking to move forward without them - it will be quicker and easier. I think the "white washing" exercise is a great one, moment (and I love that movie). And I still think of my H daily even though we haven't spoken in over two years, so I do know they can linger, and it can feel like it will always be this way. But I know from observation that if it continues with NC for the rest of my life, my feelings, just as they have continued to do over this entire crisis, will change.
Title: Re: Links/blogs/articles for us all to share 4
Post by: ArmySpouse on September 16, 2015, 02:35:23 PM

Doing more reflecting and found this:

Here a great link I found  about the marriage/partnership dynamics that were routed in childhood.. The 5 different characteristics like voided, giver, victim etc..

 it's a little bit better describe to you what I have found so far where you might find yourself in one of the descriptions and maybe can learn ...

http://www.thrivingfamily.com/Features/Magazine/2012/patterns-from-the-past.aspx


And here is about how you change your child's outcome based on how you for example apply rules.. Just had a HUGE wake up call!

http://www.2knowmyself.com/How_parents_affect_child_development



Gosh here:

http://gettinbetter.com/needlove.html


Emotionally available, healthy people do not choose to be with lovers who aren't.



The person you choose to love and partner with, mirrors your own level of emotional development. If you are truly seeking an authentic and intimate relationship, you won't attach to or remain with someone who's not, because he/she isn't a 'match' for your fundamental needs and desires. If you think there's a pattern in your romantic life that consistently feels lacking, disappointing and/or painful, you might ask yourself why you're attracted to this type of individual. More importantly, try to discern the feelings or fears that emerge for you, when you contemplate deeply loving someone, who could actually respond to you the way you've always wanted, and needed to be loved.
Title: Re: Links/blogs/articles for us all to share 4
Post by: xyzcf on September 18, 2015, 06:44:44 PM
http://www.elephantjournal.com/2014/04/why-we-need-to-face-rock-bottom-alone-freya-watson/
Title: Re: Links/blogs/articles for us all to share 4
Post by: OffRoad on September 19, 2015, 01:03:39 AM
I don't know if this has been posted yet, but it's about Shadow Types

http://www.shadowtypes.com/?page_id=280 (http://www.shadowtypes.com/?page_id=280)

Another site about shadow work
http://www.shadowwork.com/Personality-Traits-and-Shadow-Types.html (http://www.shadowwork.com/Personality-Traits-and-Shadow-Types.html)

Title: Re: Links/blogs/articles for us all to share 4
Post by: 31andcounting on September 21, 2015, 07:03:17 AM
thanks XYZCF, very interesting read, I thought!
31andcounting
Title: Re: Links/blogs/articles for us all to share 4
Post by: Tsunami on September 25, 2015, 10:31:05 PM
How childhood trauma can wreck a man's relationship.....excellent article!


http://www.huffingtonpost.com/good-men-project/childhood-trauma_b_8039900.html?ncid=txtlnkusaolp00000592
Title: Re: Links/blogs/articles for us all to share 4
Post by: 31andcounting on September 28, 2015, 07:01:11 AM
good article Tsunami..
printed it to show my H...we'll see how he responds!
31
Title: Re: Links/blogs/articles for us all to share 4
Post by: leemo2000 on September 28, 2015, 05:51:42 PM


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P2AUat93a8Q
Title: Re: Links/blogs/articles for us all to share 4
Post by: Hopeful Romantic on October 14, 2015, 11:01:21 AM
i don't know if this link has been posted...a very powerful article that I personally wish I could send to every MLCer and OW, so that they could understand the damage they have done (not that either one will really care, but still...)

Warning: It may be a triggery for some to read and maybe relive some of the feelings described here...

http://www.healingafteraffairs-bloomington.info/infidelity/trauma-of-infidelity.html 
Title: Re: Links/blogs/articles for us all to share 4
Post by: Songanddance on October 14, 2015, 11:04:14 AM
That is an excellent article HR. Thanks
Title: Re: Links/blogs/articles for us all to share 4
Post by: calamity on October 14, 2015, 02:01:51 PM
 Very good article.  I especially like the following--I am very sensitive to the 'blame the victim' idea.  First it was rape victims--it must be the behaviour, dress, morality etc.  then, cancer patients--if only you'd eaten better or lived better or....it's the 'insurance' thing people have. "My spouse won't be unfaithful because, I am a good spouse, person, worked harder, tried harder, etc etc."  No.  We did nothing to cause this.
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In other words, societal understandings of infidelity are to interpret the betrayed as deserving of betrayal because of some act, character flaw, behavior (or lack there of), that made the wayward spouses actions understandable in committing adultery. This 'Just World' view also allows a betrayed spouse to begin blaming themselves for the infidelity. The self-blame calms their anxiety over their own vulnerability to victimization. The fact that our culture has turned "victim" into a dirty word, only compounds the unfairness and trauma of infidelity. The "don't be a victim" movement that has swept through our nation has turned being a "victim" into something shameful. Not having control over what happens to you, has been summarized by society as willfully allowing it to happen, because you did nothing to prevent it.

Read more at: http://www.healingafteraffairs-bloomington.info/infidelity/trauma-of-infidelity.html (http://www.healingafteraffairs-bloomington.info/infidelity/trauma-of-infidelity.html)
Copyright © www.healingafteraffiars-bloomington.info (http://www.healingafteraffiars-bloomington.info)

 
Title: Re: Links/blogs/articles for us all to share 4
Post by: Searching4Answers on October 22, 2015, 07:21:15 AM
I really found this helpful:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ge0bPiahtmU&feature=youtu.be

It is about how to set boundaries with a narcissist - I think it applies to setting boundaries with anyone and she does it from a place of compassion.
Title: Re: Links/blogs/articles for us all to share 4
Post by: Medusa on October 25, 2015, 08:41:32 AM
I just ran across a good article about depression in men. It's not really anything new but includes a great, concise list of symptoms including anger, the need for control, and escape and avoid.

http://depression.newlifeoutlook.com/depression-men/
Title: Re: Links/blogs/articles for us all to share 4
Post by: kikki on October 25, 2015, 01:56:21 PM
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Denying your situation is living a lie that furthers your depression.  If you cannot gain acceptance, your life will worsen with your symptoms.

I think that sums it up in a nutshell.
Title: Re: Links/blogs/articles for us all to share 4
Post by: Ready2Transform on October 25, 2015, 01:58:11 PM
Quote
Denying your situation is living a lie that furthers your depression.  If you cannot gain acceptance, your life will worsen with your symptoms.

I think that sums it up in a nutshell.

Amen!
Title: Re: Links/blogs/articles for us all to share 4
Post by: Anjae on October 25, 2015, 05:34:35 PM
Quote
Denying your situation is living a lie that furthers your depression.  If you cannot gain acceptance, your life will worsen with your symptoms.


I think that sums it up in a nutshell.

It does.

For those interested we have a thread with articles, etc, about depression in Men: http://mlcforum.theherosspouse.com/index.php?topic=2541.0  - Depression - Depression on Men, Articles, Links to 
Title: Re: Links/blogs/articles for us all to share 4
Post by: forthetrees on October 26, 2015, 03:59:24 PM
Read an article today in medicalnewstoday.com about a woman whose h had parkinson´s disease. She could SMELL parkinsons on him and 11 others, one of whom was not yet officially diagnosed, but 8 months later was dx´d. I know we´ve mentioned the MLCers having an odd smell- who knows, maybe we were  onto something. The smell of parkinson´s was musky. They gave her tshirts that had been worn for one day and she could sort the sick from the ill by smell alone. There´s the proof that a brain disorder can change one´s odor.
Title: Re: Links/blogs/articles for us all to share 4
Post by: Medusa on October 26, 2015, 04:10:04 PM
Bail mentioned to me the other day that his W had a very funky odor at the beginning. I starts thinking about that and realized that since STBX moved out, my bedroom doesn't have the same strange, somewhat rank odor.
Title: Re: Links/blogs/articles for us all to share 4
Post by: leemo2000 on October 26, 2015, 05:10:52 PM
My exH has a weird odour too. In fact I asked him if his apartment was damp because whenever I see him he smells kind of damp and funky lol
Title: Re: Links/blogs/articles for us all to share 4
Post by: kikki on October 26, 2015, 08:22:57 PM
Read an article today in medicalnewstoday.com about a woman whose h had parkinson´s disease. She could SMELL parkinsons on him and 11 others, one of whom was not yet officially diagnosed, but 8 months later was dx´d. I know we´ve mentioned the MLCers having an odd smell- who knows, maybe we were  onto something. The smell of parkinson´s was musky. They gave her tshirts that had been worn for one day and she could sort the sick from the ill by smell alone. There´s the proof that a brain disorder can change one´s odor.

I read that too FTT.  And thought exactly the same thing.
My MLCer hasn't had his crisis funky smell (rancid goat) for a few years, but I did notice it again the other day. 
Title: Re: Links/blogs/articles for us all to share 4
Post by: Searching4Answers on October 26, 2015, 09:11:22 PM
Ok this is strange - I also noticed a odd smell from H early on too. I remember wondering "when did he start to stink?". At first I thought it was because he needed a shower - he would take a shower and the stink was still there. Then I thought maybe he needs to brush his teeth - nope still there after he brushed his teeth. I never did pinpoint what the odor was from.

I don't think that I have ever heard others say that their MLCer smelled.
Title: Re: Links/blogs/articles for us all to share 4
Post by: Anjae on October 26, 2015, 09:14:16 PM
At BD and for the seven months I still lived in the capital Mr J had no funky smell. Nor did he when I briefly saw him in August 2007 and May 2008. Or in court last year.

What I noticed in 2008 and last year was that he no longer uses the cologne he used to. He had none.

I someone has a different smell, it is me. The peri menopause hormones sometimes make my sweat smell peculiar. Not to mention the peri makes me sweat a lot. 

On a different note, Of late I have been reading this blog, from integrative psychotherapist Noel Bell. I like it because integrative therapy uses many therapy lines of though/schools as well as brain and hormonal studies. The blog covers issues from depression to PTSD as well as loss, managing negative emotions and anger, etc:  http://noelbell.net/psychotherapy-blog/
Title: Re: Links/blogs/articles for us all to share 4
Post by: patience.of.a.saint on October 26, 2015, 10:34:08 PM
The funky scents could come from more alcohol or whatever else they might be eating/drinking, like if you eat more garlic for repelling mosquitos. I'm not sure if mine has a funky scent because he took up smoking and just smells like that.
Title: Re: Links/blogs/articles for us all to share 4
Post by: Songanddance on October 27, 2015, 12:31:18 AM
Just to add a note of humour to this. When I was pregnant with my first child - the midwife asked at our first ante-natal class if the Hs had noticed anything about their pregnant wives..... the stock answers emerged  ...always tired, cries a bit more, has more/less energy and then my H's response.  " She smells different"   It created a bit of a giggle.

My children had funny smells especially from their scalps when they were hitting puberty.

I know that menopause has made me hyper sensitive to my own smell - so to speak. 

Will have to get close enough to sniff H to see if he has changed........
Title: Re: Links/blogs/articles for us all to share 4
Post by: Medusa on October 27, 2015, 06:49:00 AM
Well, now I want to try to see STBX to see if he is the one who smelled funky or it was me, because I was nearing the end of peri menopause at BD (oh, the irony of him always being so disappointed during my monthly time and then leaving right before I was freed!).

Hormones do a number on how we smell. So does depression. I recall that right after BD, my breath was absolutely rancid, no matter what I did. My dentist was the one who told me that.
Title: Re: Links/blogs/articles for us all to share 4
Post by: Picton on October 27, 2015, 09:42:16 AM
 My D14 always complains how much XP's truck stinks. She said it is so gross that she needs to have the window open. I just put it down to the fact that XP always looks dirty and his hair is greasy. A good friend of mine says every time she sees him she wants to attack him with a high pressure hose and a scrubbing brush because he looks and smells so grotty.
Title: Re: Links/blogs/articles for us all to share 4
Post by: Ready2Transform on October 27, 2015, 10:34:09 AM
Another one here that had a stinker. Like a teen, it was like b.o. that wouldn't quit. Prior, even when he was working in repair, he would scrub up first thing upon arriving home, shave, get the hair clean, and cologne on. HATED being grubby. But I noticed while he was clinging that even when he was in a suit and tie for the insurance job, something smelled off. He'd said the same about me before he left - but again, I was nearing the end of my crisis, so it fits.

Depression and gut health are linked, Medusa, and I've noticed that when I get in my biggest funks even now I'm suing mouthwash constantly. Our thoughts and our bodies are definitely not independent of each other.
Title: Re: Links/blogs/articles for us all to share 4
Post by: HeartTattoo on October 27, 2015, 01:15:04 PM
http://www.timjlawrence.com/blog/2015/10/19/everything-doesnt-happen-for-a-reason

This article is a little long, but it addresses one of my biggest pet peeves--the reassurance that "everything happens for a reason".  MLC happens "for a reason"??  Being betrayed & abandoned by a beloved spouse happens "for a reason"??  Being so traumatized you are suicidal, lose 50#, & can barely function happens "for a reason"??

I get that some LBS's say they are better people now than they were before BD.  You can believe that for yourself if you wish.  But don't presume that is true, or should be true, of every LBS.  Despite some good things that have happened in the last 30 months, I wouldn't hesitate to pull the handle on the time machine set to go back to Jan 11, 2013.  No make it sometime in 2008 when my H met the alienator online, or maybe sometime before 2006 when he started Monstering at work & obsessing about speedboats.

I have grieved the loss of my H & my M every single moment since BD & maybe I always will.  That experience of loss does not "make me a better person" & as the author mentions about himself, in some ways it has diminished who I am as a person.

Loss deserves the respect of allowing grief.  Take care of yourself, yes.  Try to improve your physical, mental, & emotional health, yes.  But, let yourself grieve.
Title: Re: Links/blogs/articles for us all to share 4
Post by: superdog on October 27, 2015, 01:51:33 PM
Yup had the weirdo smell thing, i thought the dog was permanently wet and drying! It was that kind of linger about, up your nose weirdo odour.

Sd
X
Title: Re: Links/blogs/articles for us all to share 4
Post by: Songanddance on October 27, 2015, 01:58:58 PM
Interesting article but the author strikes me as bitter and contemptuous of others who initially try to help those who are grieving.

I agree - the platitude "everything happens for a reason" is almost offensive when it relates to death, loss of relationship etc or extreme pain/anguish but it can apply to somebody not getting the job they went for and ended up getting a better one.

I have never encountered this platitude from any of my friends for my situation - never.

I have received the platitude that "it's time to move on" and have realised that this is their way of saying they cannot handle the situation anymore in which case I have either removed myself from them or just been honest and told them " no - I will move on in my time not yours"

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I get that some LBS's say they are better people now than they were before BD.  You can believe that for yourself if you wish.  But don't presume that is true, or should be true, of every LBS. 
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I have grieved the loss of my H & my M every single moment since BD & maybe I always will.  That experience of loss does not "make me a better person" & as the author mentions about himself, in some ways it has diminished who I am as a person.

HT - you and I have always seen eye to eye - on this occasion though I am going to disagree with the principle of what you are saying here.

I too have grieved the loss of my H and what was my M (although not Dd). I see him almost every day and some days it's like ripping the band aid off time and time again.

Has this experience made me a better person? No but I am different and I am more like the me that I grew up as.

Does that mean I am better than I was before BD?  NO.  However I have learned that marriage cannot be taken for granted, that I didn't know my H as well as I thought I did, that I am a person who put her H, children and marriage first before herself.

I love my children and H very much but I now know I have to love myself above all that. Otherwise I am not whole. 

Does that mean I am now a better person? No but perhaps I now know myself better.

The " better" ness that some LBsers talk about might not mean that they are better people but that they are more true to themselves, they have become listeners who empathise as well as sympathise - they have time and love to share with others. There is an increased awareness in them of  the world outside the marriage. There is also probably greater cynicism and reality checking and healthier detachment than before.

I have a friend who has been married 3 times.  She has had 5 children. She has been widowed once and twice divorced. The second divorce happened because their 2nd child was severely autistic and caused great stress. He was so bad that she and her then H, decided that their child needed permanent care in a home. That was the most heartbreaking thing she had to do but she knew that she had to do it to save her sanity, health and that of the other children. Her H also decided to D her at that time too.  She then lived alone bringing up the other children - and her house was flooded - everything destroyed. Inadequate insurance but she managed. Flooded again two years later and this time twice within the space of 6 weeks.  No insurance now.  Moved house with help from the local government and guess what she was flooded again. 7 floods in as many years. She saw red and decided that if no-one could help her she would help herself.  She set up a flood forum. Highly successful - got noticed, over a few years and received many awards and a specific national honour.
Then the day she was given the honour - the forum executive sacked her! 
She picked herself up - set up independently and now advises the governments around the world on flood defences. She is regularly contacted by a member of the government's environmental ministerial office.

Her S is now an adult and she brings  him home every weekend  and her latest fight has been to get a new adult home near where she lives because he was going to be sent to a home 200+miles away.  She has succeeded in her fight and a new home for adults in care is to be built near her own town.

Would she say that things happen for a reason - probably not. She has known extra-ordinary heartache and has risen above it. Has it made her a better person - only she can say but what she has done has made it better for so many others and that, in my book is something I would strive to emulate rather than to feel somewhat diminished.
Title: Re: Links/blogs/articles for us all to share 4
Post by: Medusa on October 27, 2015, 02:20:53 PM
HT, I agree with S&D that the author sounds bitter and contemptuous.

You asked if MLC happens for a reason.

My answer is, yes, it does. I am in the camp that believes the primary reason is unresolved FOO issues that become the main component of a cocktail and demands resolution. The psyche insists upon it.

Did my depression where I became suicidal happen for a reason? Yes. That was my bottom. I had the fascatjng experience of being "incarcerated" for 70 hours, and that woke me up and made me realize no one was worth my life. No one.

Which led me to mourning the loss of my marriage and the man I had loved for 26 years (then).

Which led to me finally seeing I was being emotionally abused and asking him to move out.

Which led me to look at myself and my own issues and come to terms with them.

Which led me to heal.

Which led me to being a much happier, more positive person.

Which, in my opinion, makes me a better person because I have been through my personal hell, have a kind of empathy I didn't have before. It's give. Me opportunities to do things I never would have done with him in my life. It's taught me to be independent and have a kind of confidence I never had. And more.

You don't have to like the platitudes. I understand that. I don't like them pat of the time, either. But often people use them when they are attempting to offer comfort and don't know what else to say.

Everything happens for a reason can provide hope for the future. It can help us to acceptance of something we can't change.

And we, as rational beings, have the choice to accept or reject such platitudes.

I don't agree anyone is telling you or any of us not to mourn. We do that in our own may at our own pace, and that's okay. Again, some want us to move on because they care enough they don't want to see us unhappy.
Title: Re: Links/blogs/articles for us all to share 4
Post by: HeartTattoo on October 27, 2015, 02:42:21 PM
Interesting article but the author strikes me as bitter and contemptuous of others who initially try to help those who are grieving.
He does go on a bit too long, but "trying to help" is often "not helping" & sometimes that is due to lazy thinking or avoidance of others' pain or lack of empathy.  I like this article because it reaffirms my own bias against this sentiment  ::) , but its target should be those who use this phrase & should maybe think how this sounds to those who are grieving a loss.

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I agree - the platitude "everything happens for a reason" is almost offensive when it relates to death, loss of relationship etc or extreme pain/anguish but it can apply to somebody not getting the job they went for and ended up getting a better one.
In the case of getting a job, finding a better dress than the coveted one not in your size, having a great experience at your 2nd choice university, the phrase can be heard as "Happy coincidences happen".  But when it involves serious life altering loss & tragedy, the phrase can be heard as "My god is in control & knows better what is good for you" or "Your current traumatized feelings are unnecessary because better things are going to happen someday".

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I have never encountered this platitude from any of my friends for my situation - never.
I have, several times.  I guess that is why it has become such a pet peeve.  Maybe it's the strain of fatalistic, fundamentalist religion that runs through this part of the US known as the Bible Belt.  A somewhat daffy cousin (neither fundamentalist nor fatalistic) said "God must have wonderful things planned for you".  WTF??  God arranged for my H to betray & abandon me, so something wonderful could happen?? 

Maybe I'm being nit-picky, but who's to know how we might have changed in the 2,3,5,9 years we have lived since BD, if our spouses had not left.  Maybe we could have been reminded not to take M for granted when our H was in a minor accident.  Maybe we would have learned to be more verbal in our love language when our spouse opened his mouth & actually said to us "I sometimes feel you don't love me anymore".  Maybe we would have become better people in those years too, just in a different way than we have become "better" people since BD.  IDK

Your friend's story is awe-inspiring.  A story of incredible courage & perseverance & goodness.  I wonder how she felt when someone said to her about any of it "Everything happens for a reason"?

I appreciate your comments, S&D & Medusa too having just read your post.  This is a highly theoretical discussion, but hey, whatever gets us through it.

Hugs,
HT
Title: Re: Links/blogs/articles for us all to share 4
Post by: HeartTattoo on October 27, 2015, 02:48:11 PM
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1Evwgu369Jw

A little humor injected into teaching others how to respond to difficulties.  Brene Brown
Title: Re: Links/blogs/articles for us all to share 4
Post by: calamity on October 27, 2015, 11:29:37 PM
Well I like that article & if he does go on a bit maybe it's to make up for so much from the other side for so long now.  I'm not going to rage forever about how unfair life is, even though I'd probably enjoy raging forever.  I would like others to acknowledge [others in real life that is; you people get it] that losing my h is huge, it was not my fault, yes one person can end a marriage & yes it is firetrucking weird! 

Also ow's & om's are pond scum & should never be accepted in decent society! :P
Title: Re: Links/blogs/articles for us all to share 4
Post by: Mitzpah on October 28, 2015, 04:39:28 AM
HT,

I am one of those who think the article is very apt.

I am a Christian, however, I cannot put God in a box and decide that if this has happened in my life, He has a better plan for me. I cannot know God's thoughts.

I do believe that God can bring good out of adversity, that is His business and that is why I have hope - in Him.

There are many people suffering in this world and it is not pretty and uplifting at all. Many will not see relief in this life.

I dislike the platitudes that people love to quote to me. I would much prefer people to be quiet and that is why I don't even like to talk to people in real life about the disaster zone my life has become. My life has not changed for better. I miss my h. every single day.

Title: Re: Links/blogs/articles for us all to share 4
Post by: MyBrainIsBroken on October 28, 2015, 08:39:54 AM
I agree with Mitzpah and HT. My life may have improved in some respects but overall it is definitely not better and I also think that the improvement that has occurred could have been accomplished in a less radical way. I feel the same way about my family's lives. And I believe my wife's life is significantly worse that it was before. And I also miss my wife and my previous life every single day.

The problem I see with the saying "Everything happens for a reason" is that there is both a literal and an implied meaning. I agree with the literal interpretation. As Medusa stated, I think with MLC it's often due to the MLCer having unresolved issues related to childhood trauma and FOO problems. If a bird were to fly over and crap on my head the reasons would be normal operation of the bird's digestive system combined with gravity and me being in the wrong place at the wrong time. I do believe there is a reason for everything that happens.

But I think the implied meaning is "Everything bad that happens was necessary in order for positive changes to occur" or some such crap. We can debate the implied meaning but I think that's close enough. I don't agree that bad things have to happen in order to have positive things occur and I don't believe that every bad thing that happens opens the way to something better. I see positive outcomes every day that aren't related to bad things happening and sometimes bad things have bad outcomes. My students attend classes and eventually graduate which most people believe is a positive outcome but I don't think very many of them are motivated to do so because something bad happened in the past but instead because they are looking forward to something good happening in the future as a result of their actions.

And going back to the bird crapping on my head. I think most reasonable people would agree that is a bad thing. Maybe not when it happens to me, it might be kind of funny then, but it would be bad if it happened to them. And what is the positive outcome? This actually happened to D35 when she was little. To this day she gets nervous when birds are flying around. We know the literal reason this event occurred but where is the positive change that's supposed to occur? Is she better off now that she's more aware and anxious when birds fly overhead?

I like Mitzpah's point about being a Christian because I also identify myself as a Christian and I struggled for a long time with the question "Why does God allow bad things to happen?" and I've come up with some answers that I can live with. The most important of these is that we have been given free will. We are not zombies mindlessly doing whatever God tells us to do. We can make our own choices and those choices sometimes result in negative outcomes. God probably wouldn't want us to place our hand on a hot stove but we can choose to either do so or not. It's our choice just like we can choose to exceed the speed limit, shoplift, or abuse our children.

I also believe God has given us a moral code to live by so that we can have good lives but we are not obligated to follow it and a lot of people choose to ignore parts of it. And I believe that God does try to influence events and turn negatives into positives which is why most of us have a conscience and which is also why we often hear what HB refers to as God's Intuition or "the still, small, voice". And I also believe prayer can be helpful but that God works through people so our prayers might go unanswered if the people God is trying to work through choose to ignore "the still, small voice".

These are my beliefs. I would never try to force anyone else to embrace them but I find them helpful. If they make you uncomfortable or you believe something different, feel free to ignore what I've written.

I used to be embarrassingly optimistic and I believe at heart I still am but I think the outcomes from most MLCs are far more negative than positive and I find it difficult to believe that everyone in my family who has been impacted by this will find their life eventually becomes better than it was before. Different maybe but not better.

Title: Re: Links/blogs/articles for us all to share 4
Post by: Songanddance on October 28, 2015, 09:35:22 AM
The below is an extract from Lee Baucom's latest blog which is emailed to me directly .. I hope it helps the newbies on here.

However the connecting and re-connecting he is talking about is keeping any level of contact bright and breezy and not any R discussions at all.  He is an excellent guide coupled with RCR's articles and you have a secure foundation on which to start your mirror work.




That one phrase starts the death spiral of SO many marriages, "I love you, but I'm NOT IN LOVE with you."  And every week, I hear the same stories in my Virtual Coaching Program.  It goes something like this:  "I knew we had some issues.  I thought they were normal/ thought we would work through them/ thought we would get on-track after (the kids left, the new job started, we moved to the new house, etc., etc., etc.).  But then my spouse told me, 'I love you, but I'm not in love with you.'  What does that mean?"

From there, the story is almost always about a spiral down.  Attempts were made to convince the spouse, argue the point of love, prove that just a few weeks/months before, they were happy and promised their love.  What happened?

First, the meaning of that phrase.  It indicates a certain level of disconnection.  The feelings of passion, of "in love" butterflies is gone, but care and concern are still there.  It also indicates a level of hurt, perhaps from the disconnection or from other actions/inactions.  And then there are the times it indicates there is another person that is getting that feeling.  And there are times when it actually indicates a physical issue (hormonal problems, depression, hypothyroidism). 

But the important thing is, this is NOT the same as a spouse saying, "I am done with this marriage."

Yesterday, I was out running my normal trail with my dog.  There are several parts to the trail that are easy, with a wide path, through a flat section of the woods.  At other times, I am running against a rock wall on one side and a sheer drop on the other side.  You may have thought your marriage was running on the flat part, on an easy path.  Your spouse is telling you, "we are running on the edge.  There is a drop-off nearby."

But your spouse is NOT saying, "we have fallen off the path, and are headed for the bottom."  Unless, of course, your response precipitates that.

You see, your next response is CRUCIAL.  Your spouse has just given you a gift of saying, "Things are NOT alright."

Here are the actions I often see:
1.   Panic.  You think the end has come, so you work to convince, argue, cajole, "use logic," plead, and basically try to harass your spouse into reconsidering.  That will fail.
2.   Turn on Romance.  This is where you try to reignite those feelings.  You turn on the charm, turn on the sex, try to get a date/weekend/gift/whatever, to get those feelings back.  That will fail.
3.   Out of hurt, you proclaim, "I don't love you, either!"  (You probably know that one will fail!)
4.   Threaten.  You let the other person know they have to change, this isn't YOUR problem.  If they don't change, there will be consequences.  (Yep, that one will fail, too.)
You have to deal with the disconnection and the hurt.  Work on reconnecting.  Work on healing the hurt.  Don't let your own hurt feelings cloud your judgement.



Hope this helps the newbies.....
Title: Re: Links/blogs/articles for us all to share 4
Post by: MyBrainIsBroken on October 28, 2015, 10:08:18 AM
The blog excerpt is interesting but I think there's a lot of focus on what won't work without much of a description of what will work.
Title: Re: Links/blogs/articles for us all to share 4
Post by: Songanddance on October 28, 2015, 10:29:18 AM
That's why MBIB - you need to access his full blog site because he gives an awful lot of good advice on what does work.  This is just an extract to draw people in to the full programme he offers including free weekly podcasts from both his save the marriage website and thriveology.com website.

If I hadn't listened to what was then an MP3 download on midlife crisis marriage - I doubt I would be standing and I also doubt I would have found this website.   He made me realise that H's behaviour was his problem and not mine and that I had to step back, detach and let it happen.  I found HS much much later and by then knew what I was facing.
Title: Re: Links/blogs/articles for us all to share 4
Post by: 31andcounting on October 28, 2015, 11:51:01 AM
I agree Song~  I did the same, found Lee first.....than HS. 
I listen to all of his info, still now :)
31
Title: Re: Links/blogs/articles for us all to share 4
Post by: Songanddance on November 01, 2015, 07:40:35 AM
 A book that I have been reading on kindle and have now bought the hard copy.

Love Being Me - by Julie Leoni.

It is about her having a breakdown and the slow days of recovery as a busy mum, wife, career professional etc.....  It is primarily aimed at women but the first chapter includes a paragraph about being lost, bewildered, world shaken apart and totally bereft.  Even though she was not an MLCer LBS - she still describes incredibly accurately the initial days of shock and anguish. 
Her subsequent chapters are about growth and finding you. 

She gives you questions and wants you to write down your answers. It is very informal in style and it's almost as though she is there sitting talking with you. 

This is an excellent follow on book from "Detach and Survive" which was written by an MLCer LBS.
Get both if you can - Amazon.
Title: Re: Links/blogs/articles for us all to share 4
Post by: LisaLives on November 02, 2015, 08:20:20 AM
Even as a stander, I think everyone needs to read and live this... 

https://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/getting-back-out-there/201506/when-the-person-you-love-doesnt-love-you

The person who is right for you is NOT your MLCer.  That MLCer may become the right person, but until they do, this article is spot on...  Love and light, ll

If you were already almost at that destination and you need further assurance, try this one!

http://tinyurl.com/kmvq67x
Title: Re: Links/blogs/articles for us all to share 4
Post by: superdog on November 02, 2015, 08:40:57 AM
MBIB what if that bird crapping on your head stoped you in your tracks for 10 minutes in order that you were not on time to walk out in front of the car that was going to knock you down? Just askin. I believe it all happens for a reason.imho.

Larry Biotta has some great things on the chaos kids. Worth a listen to his podcasts, even for yourself.
I have to say it pegged my h spot on.

Sd
Title: Re: Links/blogs/articles for us all to share 4
Post by: stayed on November 02, 2015, 09:03:54 AM

https://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/getting-back-out-there/201506/when-the-person-you-love-doesnt-love-you


http://tinyurl.com/kmvq67x

The first article was excellent.  Well written, lots of detail.  Explains every possible scenario.. really helpful.  The second one, said it was not available... not sure why... would have liked to have read that one...

Thanks Lisa... hugs Stayed
Title: Re: Links/blogs/articles for us all to share 4
Post by: Ready2Transform on November 02, 2015, 09:07:09 AM
Try this link: http://tinyurl.com/kmvq67x

Or take "firetruck" out of that original one, and replace it with the word it replaces here on the forum (remove the "iretr" ;) ).

Quote

The first article was excellent.  Well written, lots of detail.  Explains every possible scenario.. really helpful.  The second one, said it was not available... not sure why... would have liked to have read that one...

Thanks Lisa... hugs Stayed

Title: Re: Links/blogs/articles for us all to share 4
Post by: LisaLives on November 02, 2015, 09:09:54 AM

https://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/getting-back-out-there/201506/when-the-person-you-love-doesnt-love-you


http://markmanson.net/firetruck-yes

The first article was excellent.  Well written, lots of detail.  Explains every possible scenario.. really helpful.  The second one, said it was not available... not sure why... would have liked to have read that one...

Thanks Lisa... hugs Stayed

Stayed, do you have filters on your system.  I might think just the title might not let you view it at work, or if you have kid filters...  But if you google the title and Mark Manson, it might come up--it was reprinted a lot...  Oh, now i see, did not know the forum automatically filtered the title!  Thanks R2T! 
Title: Re: Links/blogs/articles for us all to share 4
Post by: OldPilot on November 02, 2015, 09:17:49 AM
Oh, now i see, did not know the forum automatically filtered the title!  Thanks R2T!
Yes an unintended consequence - Thanks R2T!
And LisaLives also.

I have edited all but one listing of the link with the tinyurl
Title: Re: Links/blogs/articles for us all to share 4
Post by: stayed on November 02, 2015, 10:09:55 AM
lol, silly me... never even thought of that... thought other sites were now employing the firetruck substitute ... hehee... ok, I'm going in... with the proper url...

Got it... lol ... hugs Stayed
Title: Re: Links/blogs/articles for us all to share 4
Post by: stayed on November 02, 2015, 10:16:21 AM
firetruck YEA... that was a great article... and so firetrucking true!

Hugs Stayed
Title: Re: Links/blogs/articles for us all to share 4
Post by: twiceburnt on November 03, 2015, 12:56:13 AM
Even as a stander, I think everyone needs to read and live this... 

https://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/getting-back-out-there/201506/when-the-person-you-love-doesnt-love-you

The person who is right for you is NOT your MLCer.  That MLCer may become the right person, but until they do, this article is spot on...  Love and light, ll

If you were already almost at that destination and you need further assurance, try this one!

http://tinyurl.com/kmvq67x

Thank you very much for posting these links.  I needed them.  Not because of my MLCer, but because of all the women that have been leading me on lately and then leaving me hanging (most seem to have "sort of" boyfriends they just can't seem to leave - that I didn't know about until weeks later).  It is mainly just one though.  I don't think I've ever been lead on so badly in my life. lol.  But she pulled on all the right heart strings I guess.  Time to reject her.  She doesn't realize what she's missing out on.  :)
Title: Re: Links/blogs/articles for us all to share 4
Post by: LisaLives on November 03, 2015, 07:02:08 AM

Thank you very much for posting these links.  I needed them.  Not because of my MLCer, but because of all the women that have been leading me on lately and then leaving me hanging (most seem to have "sort of" boyfriends they just can't seem to leave - that I didn't know about until weeks later).  It is mainly just one though.  I don't think I've ever been lead on so badly in my life. lol.  But she pulled on all the right heart strings I guess.  Time to reject her.  She doesn't realize what she's missing out on.  :)

Are you SURE you're ready to move on?  We tend to attract the people we ARE.  It could be you feel somewhat safer with women who are not emotionally available because you are also not totally there yet...  Realize this journey will be full of potholes and bad turns.  Be careful with your heart and their's and take your time.  Love will find you when you are healthy and ready, not a minute before.  Try not to end up like our MLC'ers ;-)!  Love and light, ll

Title: Re: Links/blogs/articles for us all to share 4
Post by: twiceburnt on November 03, 2015, 10:29:05 PM

Thank you very much for posting these links.  I needed them.  Not because of my MLCer, but because of all the women that have been leading me on lately and then leaving me hanging (most seem to have "sort of" boyfriends they just can't seem to leave - that I didn't know about until weeks later).  It is mainly just one though.  I don't think I've ever been lead on so badly in my life. lol.  But she pulled on all the right heart strings I guess.  Time to reject her.  She doesn't realize what she's missing out on.  :)

Are you SURE you're ready to move on?  We tend to attract the people we ARE.  It could be you feel somewhat safer with women who are not emotionally available because you are also not totally there yet...  Realize this journey will be full of potholes and bad turns.  Be careful with your heart and their's and take your time.  Love will find you when you are healthy and ready, not a minute before.  Try not to end up like our MLC'ers ;-)!  Love and light, ll

Yeah, you are probably right.  I think I am, but who knows (its been long enough time-wise - at least it sure seems like it).  I'm probably just lonely.  The problem is these women are claiming to be single, when they are really just trying to find an excuse to leave their BF's I knew nothing about.  I don't know, I guess the one I'm referring to seemed to like and want to do a lot of the things I do, which my W never wanted to do - so I was probably a bit too excited to possibly spend time with someone who actually liked things I do.  Also, she reminded me a lot of my W physically, etc. - maybe I'm just subconsciously trying to replace her with someone similar (probably not a good thing either lol).  I don't want to be with an obvious liar anyhow.  I've had enough of that the past few years to last a lifetime.
Title: Re: Links/blogs/articles for us all to share 4
Post by: serenity on November 04, 2015, 12:12:54 AM
Hi twiceburnt,

Just wanted to say hi and I know how you feel about the loneliness but I've come to a decision regarding dating - I have dated on/off for the last five years and been in two R's but I've decided that I'd rather be alone than in a R with the wrong person! I DO NOT want to be like my H and be with the nearest piece of passing rubbish thats available!

I know being alone sucks at times but you have your friends and your son so maybe slow down on the dating?!? You don't want to find yourself in a bad situation. I don't understand anyone that lies and cheats but it seems more the norm these days rather than committing to one person.

Take care and I hope I haven't offended you. My advice was only meant with the best of intentions.

Hugs

X

Title: Re: Links/blogs/articles for us all to share 4
Post by: twiceburnt on November 04, 2015, 12:31:27 AM
I know being alone sucks at times but you have your friends and your son so maybe slow down on the dating?!?

Yeah, I know (and no, I didn't take offense).  To be clear, I haven't actually dated any of these recent women.  They came after me also - I was just minding my own business when they started flirting with me.  They just flirt and text the crap out of me calling me "handsome, sweetie, etc." and promise they will spend time with me or go on a date "next week".  The main one had a lot of seemingly legitimate excuses for blowing me off for weeks, but I think they were all just lies.  It's the leading me on crap that is hurtful - they build me up, then let me down.  It's almost like the evil of MLC is still trying to hurt me even though I've let go of my MLC W.

Oh well, I'll be fine.  I'm used to much worse. lol.  It is just very frustrating that there are this many people in the world that are so selfish.  I must be a magnet for potential MLCers down the road. 
Title: Re: Links/blogs/articles for us all to share 4
Post by: LisaLives on November 04, 2015, 05:01:51 AM

Yeah, I know (and no, I didn't take offense).  To be clear, I haven't actually dated any of these recent women.  They came after me also - I was just minding my own business when they started flirting with me.  They just flirt and text the crap out of me calling me "handsome, sweetie, etc." and promise they will spend time with me or go on a date "next week".  The main one had a lot of seemingly legitimate excuses for blowing me off for weeks, but I think they were all just lies.  It's the leading me on crap that is hurtful - they build me up, then let me down.  It's almost like the evil of MLC is still trying to hurt me even though I've let go of my MLC W.

Oh well, I'll be fine.  I'm used to much worse. lol.  It is just very frustrating that there are this many people in the world that are so selfish.  I must be a magnet for potential MLCers down the road.

Getting back in the "dating" scene after a long marriage is hard and eye-opening.  Be sure that women who come after you that strongly are NOT okay...  Most healthy women, and most healthy men are somewhat AFRAID to date.  If someone comes on too strong, run hard and fast the other way.  This is where MLCers get it wrong, they feel like these people who come after them must be ALL THAT and see them for what they really are--they don't they see something, usually money, status, stability, and other things they want, but I PROMISE you, anyone who pursues anyone that hard is NOT okay...  Love and light, ll
Title: Re: Links/blogs/articles for us all to share 4
Post by: stayed on November 04, 2015, 06:55:10 AM
This is such a good discussion.  Really enjoying it.

Good luck twiceburnt.  You are getting some fabulous advice here.  I must admit, I would not have though of that LisaLives, that somebody who was coming onto me that strong, is probably not the healthiest person.  Good safety tip!

Hugs Stayed
Title: Re: Links/blogs/articles for us all to share 4
Post by: Savoir Faire on November 25, 2015, 03:28:21 AM
Sae this and not sure if it's been posted before b here goes....

Link to article bout the shadow side - monster.


http://www.practicalphilosophy.net/?page_id=952
Title: Re: Links/blogs/articles for us all to share 4
Post by: Absolutely Fabulous on November 29, 2015, 07:44:45 AM
For all of you dealing with vanishers. Good article.

https://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/living-forward/201511/why-ghosting-causes-so-much-pain
Title: Re: Links/blogs/articles for us all to share 4
Post by: xyzcf on December 02, 2015, 12:14:43 PM
Childhood, disrupted
Adversity in childhood can create long-lasting scars, damaging our cells and our DNA, and making us sick as adults 
by Donna Jackson Nakazawa (https://aeon.co/users/donna-jackson-nakazawa)
https://aeon.co/essays/how-bad-experiences-in-childhood-lead-to-adult-illness
Title: Re: Links/blogs/articles for us all to share 4
Post by: Bailmor on December 08, 2015, 06:35:56 AM
Ladies and gentlemen, the article linked is EXACTLY what I have been thinking since the passing of Scott Weiland, of the group Stone Temple Pilots.  For someone who for years has had numerous documented issues with drugs, alcohol and alternate lifestyles, I can't begin to pay tribute to this person.  Yes, his music was outstanding, but there is more to life than music.  This article written by his life could very easily be about any one of our MLCers. 

During this time of holiday spirit, remember those who are struggling and pray for hope that they find their way out of their own personal he!!.

http://www.rollingstone.com/music/news/scott-weiland-s-family-dont-glorify-this-tragedy-20151207
Title: Re: Links/blogs/articles for us all to share 4
Post by: Rollercoasterider on December 31, 2015, 09:16:20 AM
Before the kids came along I followed several infidleity blogs. I still ge tthe updates in my email, but don't have as much time to read them and since it's been a few years, fewer of the blogs are kept up--since they were personal journal blogs much like your threads here.

Well today I got an update following affair recovery and I think you need to read it! I have not read her recent posts--which were 6 months ago and so there may be more gold in there than jsut this post.

Diary of a Warrior Princess: Yes! We are still married and going strong! (https://huperecho.wordpress.com/2015/12/30/yes-we-are-still-married-and-going-strong/)
Title: Re: Links/blogs/articles for us all to share 4
Post by: LisaLives on February 07, 2016, 06:05:32 AM

I am not sure if this has ever come up here, but I know true PDs are often thrown around here.  Was the MLCer NPD, BPD, not in a clinical way, but on the spectrum, so to speak.  We are having a lot of problems with my STB step daughter and I found this for by BF to read.  It hit him like a kick to the gut because he was able to put 20 years of marriage into perspective. 

This is a really good piece that perfectly describes, for an abnormal psych novice, a person who is just-not-right, emotionally.  It basically describes subclinical PDs.  It is also not very hopeful any of them will ever get better, but it may resonate for a few people.  FWIW, remember take what you need, leave the rest...

http://www.heartspiritmind.com/relationships/relationships-with-emotionally-immature-people/
Title: Re: Links/blogs/articles for us all to share 4
Post by: MIMIx on February 07, 2016, 07:10:20 AM
LisaLives,

This article has summed up EVERYTHING that  I have been unable to write myself.

  I have faced these challenges with my husband throughout our entire marriage.  I disregarded his feelings because I did not want to be pulled down by the negativity. This has only fuelled his anger and his feelings of being unloved.  He is so much more needy than I ever expected and it has never gone away.  This seems to be what has driven him to tell me "I can't do this anymore, I have to leave." 

Just a few weeks ago, h came to a family gathering...tried to put on a brave face and act like everything was normal.  When he gradually began to look unhappy, I asked him what was wrong?  He said that he didn't feel that he belonged.  So sad! I'm not sure what triggered this.  It was not me.   I was not with him at the time.  This, I believe, is his emotional immaturity talking to him.  He seems so overly sensitive, unreasonable  and believing that he is not loved by his family.  Which is not true!  These feelings he has,  fuels anger and resentment towards us and he starts becoming very controlling.  This only drives all of us away because it's too hard to take.  If I would have understood any of this,  I would have offered him additional affection, attention and validation.  However, how much does one continue to give towards what feels like a bottomless pit?   

Thank you for this article. 

Title: Re: Links/blogs/articles for us all to share 4
Post by: Velika on February 09, 2016, 09:36:46 PM
Via The Guardian:

People Age 40-59 Least Happy, Most Anxious, Study Finds

http://www.theguardian.com/society/2016/feb/02/middle-aged-people-least-happy-most-anxious-ons-wellbeing-report?CMP=fb_gu

Unsure as to where to post this, but thought others would find interesting ... Feel free to merge elsewhere.)
Title: Re: Links/blogs/articles for us all to share 4
Post by: Searching4Answers on February 10, 2016, 08:00:51 AM
I receive newsletters in my email about narcissism - my exh has huge narcissistic tendencies, always has ??? The difference now is that he doesn't care how it effects people where as before BD he would try to downplay it.

One of the things that I am stuck on, and I see many of us here stuck on, is the injustice we feel at the hands of our MLCer. There are many times that I feel that I need acknowledgement from my MLCer of how firetrucked up his behavior is in order for me to move forward. I get stuck in this "I am right you are wrong" way of thinking. I know that I will never get an apology from my MLCer - I have accepted this but it doesn't stopping me from having some hope that I am wrong. Somewhere in me I think that his "I'm sorry" is a magic pill.

This morning I got this newsletter (replace narcissist with MLCer):
When dealing with typical narcissistic acts we have all felt that strong urge to be "right", make them "wrong" and oppose their bad behaviour.

I remember exactly what that felt like …

You witness their selfish behaviour, child-like arguments and malicious acts and you feel your blood start to boil.

You feel a tightness in your chest and you think to yourself – Nooooo way is that acceptable behaviour!!!

But they don't listen ... narcissist's don't change! ... 

Soooo .... in order to try to get some validation and understanding, you may call up a friend or make a post online to explain the terrible things the narcissist is doing to you.

Or you may obsess about the shocking things the narcissist has done - over and over and over.
And momentarily you may feel better ...

But what happens the next time the narcissist acts out?

Again you tell others how atrociously the narcissist is behaving, and / or replay it in your mind. And ... on reflection you feel like you are stuck in "Groundhog Day", going over the same things again and again and again.

The reason for this is because when we are triggered by something that comes across as “bad” or "wrong” we enter the realm of conditional living.

And what that means is we are saying to the Universe, “I cannot be happy until this condition changes”.

Then we have handed over our power, because as you have totally experienced, we have no ability to change the narcissist’s behaviour.

Now we have placed our own happiness and peace on what the narcissist is or isn't doing.


Here is the video - it makes a lot of sense: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kO9Z6vRjEBc&feature=youtu.be&utm_source=New+Life&utm_campaign=96d0601135-NL_2015_Thriver_TV_Righteousness2_10_2016&utm_medium=email&utm_term=0_005709a593-96d0601135-407511733
Title: Re: Links/blogs/articles for us all to share 4
Post by: Songanddance on February 10, 2016, 09:49:37 AM
My boss is a narcissist and through understanding narcissism and my own responses and reactions - she no longer bothers me.

I met her today to discuss progress on my appraisal targets that she had set me (it's meant to be me that sets them) - I had hit all the targets but the narcissist in her had to still be in control so she picked at a few of the targets with new tasks to do to really hit them. I completed them all this afternoon.

Her nit picking didn't bother me and when she asked me what I thought of her feedback I just said " I think there were too many targets and yet I still met them all.... I think I'm doing well"

She was silent, forced a smile and I finished the interview.

If you let a narcissist get to you - you will always be controlled by them. Detachment is very important in all walks of life not just MLC crisis.
Title: Re: Links/blogs/articles for us all to share 4
Post by: Ready2Transform on February 10, 2016, 10:57:32 AM
SUCH a good piece. Thank you for sharing. It helps!
Title: Re: Links/blogs/articles for us all to share 4
Post by: Onward on February 10, 2016, 11:03:55 AM
Good resource! Thanks for this, Searching 4.
Title: Re: Links/blogs/articles for us all to share 4
Post by: Searching4Answers on February 10, 2016, 11:30:54 AM
If you let a narcissist get to you - you will always be controlled by them. Detachment is very important in all walks of life not just MLC crisis.

This is so very true - the things that I have learned here have definitely helped me in all aspects of my life!

I believe that my exh is likely a narcissist and I struggled with that for a long time. I finally realized that it doesn't matter what he is or isn't - what matters is how I am being treated and if it is acceptable to me. Interestingly enough, he does react accordingly to narc script when boundaries are put up. Walks like a duck, quacks like a duck, probably a duck.

SUCH a good piece. Thank you for sharing. It helps!
Good resource! Thanks for this, Searching 4.

I am glad you got something out of it ;)

It really spoke to me and I thought the example she used to show the righteousness in everyday life was great - it is sooo me. I really feel that this was an eye-opener for me.
Title: Re: Links/blogs/articles for us all to share 4
Post by: terrified_in_TN on March 03, 2016, 03:46:07 PM
Okay, this doesn't have much at all to do with MLC, but I stumbled on it while researching something else.  Although it pertains to "lost lovers" (aka loves from ones youth), rekindling these kind of relationships are quite often found in cases of MLC.

Read the 7 Myths linked...Warning, quite the opposite of what is sometimes normally said here:

http://www.lostlovers.com/7-myths-of-lost-love-reunions/
Title: Re: Links/blogs/articles for us all to share 4
Post by: Ready2Transform on March 03, 2016, 04:31:25 PM
Goes to show that you can spin anything if you've got something you're selling! I think her take that, "They never cheated before this (and they never do with anyone else after this)" is very telling; what evidence would she have that they NEVER do it again? That's even worse statistic work than what we do around here.  ;)

But just to be balanced, if it wasn't breaking up a marriage or two, and two people were to find themselves together again after many years (I think of my dad and maybe a girl he went to high school with that he may have carried a torch for, or something), that's a great story. I get the romance of it, but I think it's gross there's someone out there who is actually trying to cash in on infidelity like this.

Title: Re: Links/blogs/articles for us all to share 4
Post by: Anjae on March 03, 2016, 05:29:37 PM
It is not even statistics, it is just for now. Those people will not cheat again, until they do (the ones who will).
 
5 is true, it is not about the sex. 2 is also not untrue. Or better, is there really much of a difference between "excitement of having this once-beloved person back in your life" and "It’s a new romance, so of course there is euphoria"? I don't think so.

1, well, if I, or Ready2, were to get back with our husbands, we would be getting back together from someone of our formative years. And we have not seem them in ages. But they have changed, and so have we. They have changed so much, they are having a MLC. But we have also spend decades with them, so, yes, we knew them very well.

Do I still know my first serious boyfriend from when I was 17? In a sense, yes. He has not changed that much. Which is not such a good thing. I had meet him a few times when I was in the capital and never noticed I still had an interest in him.

So, one is in a happy marriage, but is also in a "rekindled romance affair". Why that does sound like MLC to me?  ::)

Agree with Ready2, if two people meet again many years down the road, and they have not break their marriages to be together, it may work and even be an interesting relationship.
Title: Re: Links/blogs/articles for us all to share 4
Post by: terrified_in_TN on March 03, 2016, 05:38:46 PM
Anjae-

  Interesting perspective, coming at it from the angle of rekindling a romance from a former spouse.  Look at it from the perspective of one leaving one's spouse for an old flame, and then it becomes quite different.

Of particular note is Myth #6-Quite the opposite of what we discuss here.

Actually, it wasn't the site or even the article that I first stumbled upon-it was their forum, and in particular to "poetsjustice" post from almost three years ago.  Wow, does his story sound EERILY familiar (really hit home in my case since I went to go see old flame one time):

http://www.lostlovers.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=next_topic;f=7;t=000032;go=older

By the way, according to someone in that thread, they do state the author/site owner suggests that if either or both of the parties are married when they rekindle, they only have a 5% chance of success at a long term relationship.  On the other hand if they are widowed/divorced, the chances of success jumps up to 75%.  Although I didn't see those stats anywhere on the site, if the author really does state that, then at least she subscribes to the fact that leaving a marriage for your "lost love" has very little chance of success.

-T
Title: Re: Links/blogs/articles for us all to share 4
Post by: Anjae on March 03, 2016, 06:09:09 PM
I'm not a big fan of the unresolved family of origin thing. Especially not for a rekindled romance. It has more to do with wanting to recapture the feelings of that time, feeling young again, get together to lead the life they think they should had lead if they were together in the first place. But she says that "these are two people who loved each other years ago and missed an opportunity to be together; now they want to correct that mistake."

In fact, it is not at odds with what we say here. The articles clearly state that what the MLCer feels at any given time is real for the MLCer at that given time. It may not be later, but in the moment, it is real because they feel it.

Infatuation may be just infatuation, but it is still real when we feel it. Same for desire/lust. What we may is not act upon it, but they are real.

However, of course it is also a fantasy. The whole situation being a fantasy does not mean that what is felt in the moment is not real. But how long is that feeling of start stuck lovers/we were always made to be together is going to last? People may stay in that relationship, but their feelings and the way they see the relationship will change over time.

I do think there is a difference between getting together with our MLCer, and a late adolescence love. And, for many, the MLCer is not an ex-spouse, it is still the spouse. Albeit often, only legally.

Of course leaving your marriage for a lost love has very little changes of working out. 5% even seems too much to me.

Widowed I could see it work fine. Divorced, I think it would depend.

On that other link you posted, the one with the board post, it is so obvious what an affair down the lost love is. Depressed, drinker, cheated on his wife, no job, contacted her on a drinking binge, etc. What a catch. I could not wait to go back to such lost love.  ::) Of course the wife who got involved with her lost love in a MLCer, who is depressed and doing all the things MLCers do.

Well, my first serious boyfriend can turn up on the door, I'm not going to be interested. A couple of years ago he invited me, as well as many other people, to his 50th birthday. It was not odd because we move in the same small cultural circle and the party was public, but I could not be bothered.
Title: Re: Links/blogs/articles for us all to share 4
Post by: Ready2Transform on March 09, 2016, 02:17:06 PM
This is an incredible podcast! http://www.brainsync.com/blog/intuition-and-the-gift-of-crisis/

It's an interview on a site that does sell products (meditations CDs - I like Kelly Howell's products, but I'm not endorsing that anyone here should buy anything). But this interview in particular speaks a lot to me, and I think it will to some of you, too.


Laura Day | Intuition and the Gift of Crisis

If you’re in crisis, or know someone who is, listen to this podcast as Kelly chats with New York Times best-selling author and intuitive Laura Day. You’ll discover how to welcome a crisis as an opportunity to turn your life around. You’ll also discover why Laura believes that intuition is a tool that’s easily accessible to you.

Kelly and Laura discuss the four different kinds of reaction to crisis: rage, denial, depression, and anxiety, and what to do about these reactions. Discover exactly what you should do when a crisis hits ? and how to help others to deal with their crisis reactions.

Think you’re not intuitive? Laura teaches individuals and companies to be more intuitive. She says that synchronicity in your life predicts opportunities that are currently available to you. Laura says that intuition is not psychic ability, nor is intuition spiritual: intuition is a tool which gives you correct data that you can act upon.
Title: Re: Links/blogs/articles for us all to share 4
Post by: Anjae on March 09, 2016, 05:00:20 PM
Interesting.



Kelly and Laura discuss the four different kinds of reaction to crisis: rage, denial, depression, and anxiety, and what to do about these reactions.


In the Podcast it is said a person only has one crisis type. But I think at BD a LBS has all types. Also, I think I have had different types depending of the typed of crisis and of how old I was. But, mostly, by default, I react with calm to a crisis.

It is funny, but at BD, despite it all, I was far better off than now. Of course, by then, BD was the end of the world, everything was turned into a mess and so on. There was, however, something not present at BD, peace. Now there is peace.

But really, in hidsight, BD is just our spouse who got involved with someone else, and our marriage is over. Seeing it from here and now, it does not seem such a big deal. Strange how we, and the way we see things change, isn't it? 
Title: Re: Links/blogs/articles for us all to share 4
Post by: Ready2Transform on March 09, 2016, 06:22:15 PM
In the Podcast it is said a person only has one crisis type. But I think at BD a LBS has all types. Also, I think I have had different types depending of the typed of crisis and of how old I was. But, mostly, by default, I react with calm to a crisis.

Oh, I hear you. But honestly, what she says about our crisis type being set early on in life really resonated with me. Whenever I get to a point of overwhelm or feel the stress from panic coming on, I have always found calm in doing a task - which puts me firmly in the "anxiety" crisis type. She's got several books out, and I've put them on hold at my local library so I can learn more about her methods.

Quote
It is funny, but at BD, despite it all, I was far better off than now. Of course, by then, BD was the end of the world, everything was turned into a mess and so on. There was, however, something not present at BD, peace. Now there is peace.

I think it was easier when the bottom fell out at the beginning because we had such vivid contrast happening. The drive and desire for something to be better was equaled in power to everything we had immediately lost. In the 'limbo' phase it is harder to find direction, because we start to consider different outcomes, which sort of lessens the intensity of our drive forward. Intensity gives us focus. In some ways, I agree, it was better then than now (certainly financially!). But if I knew there would be 5+ years of all of this ahead of me, it was not as good. I had the hope that everything could be mended quickly, and that hope helped (even if it was not accurate).

Quote
But really, in hidsight, BD is just our spouse who got involved with someone else, and our marriage is over. Seeing it from here and now, it does not seem such a big deal. Strange how we, and the way we see things change, isn't it?

:) Certainly. I was telling another LBS last night that if I had one regret, it's that I didn't get on top of this and self-focus faster. But I didn't. I'm here now. It's a relief that I don't feel as passionately about the need and possibility of his return and recovery. But it's a loss to let that go, too. But one that isn't felt as deeply anymore, for sure.
Title: Re: Links/blogs/articles for us all to share 4
Post by: Thunder on March 10, 2016, 05:38:30 AM
Interesting article, T.

I think two things.  Your first love never dies, in your head anyway.

I feel looking back, after all those years, you are romanticizing the relationship.  It may have been a good one or maybe not have been but when you're young love is romantic.   

I don't really believe too many of them could work because when you were young you had no real responsibilities, you were carefree.  No kids to raise no family to feed, probably no bills to pay.  Heck, who wouldn't want to go back to that easy life?  But you insert reality and it's a whole different ball game.
Title: Re: Links/blogs/articles for us all to share 4
Post by: MyBrainIsBroken on March 10, 2016, 10:34:16 AM
I don't get it. I think about my first love and I have no interest in going back. We weren't a good match then and I doubt it would be any better now. I have no desire to rekindle a relationship with anyone I dated when I was young. There was one girl who really broke my heart. I thought I wanted to marry her but now I know there was a reason why it didn't work out and I've no interest in going there either. Especially considering the way she broke my heart.

Which brings me back to now. I still want my wife back in spite of the way she broke my heart and I'm not romanticizing my adolescent relationships so I doubt I'm romanticizing my marriage. My feelings for my wife must be real.
Title: Re: Links/blogs/articles for us all to share 4
Post by: calamity on March 10, 2016, 09:48:07 PM
I was totally romanticizing my h.  Since BD I only thought of him as he was at 25.  I forgot he was really a grumpy old man. ;D
Title: Re: Links/blogs/articles for us all to share 4
Post by: Thunder on March 11, 2016, 05:06:43 AM
MB,

I was just giving my opinion on the article. 
I don't have any desire to go back to my first love either but I think a lot of people in MLC do.  It's like the go back to there youth (fantasize) and want to relive it, even their first loves can be part of that delusion.

No, I'm sure your love for your W is real.   :)
Title: Re: Links/blogs/articles for us all to share 4
Post by: Mitzpah on March 11, 2016, 12:05:44 PM
No desire at all to go back to my 'first love' - I suppose I could even try that if I wanted, he is unattached ::) There is nothing there, we parted ways back then and I really have no interest.

There were others, too, but like MBIB, the only real interest I have is my husband.

Title: Re: Links/blogs/articles for us all to share 4
Post by: Ready2Transform on March 11, 2016, 12:28:03 PM
The boy I dated before Hoss I've found out from mutual friends was diagnosed in the last ten years with schizophrenia. I guess he has his life together now, but it explains a lot about his 'strangeness' at times during the few months we were sort of on-and-off in high school. So no...I'll skip that! But it does scare me that I have a type, don't I?  :o ;D
Title: Re: Links/blogs/articles for us all to share 4
Post by: Howmanytimes on April 02, 2016, 03:09:31 PM
Hello everyone

Sorry for not being on the sitcom so long.  Have been dropping in though.

Thought you may find this link interesting as it is about a Woman who thought her H was going through MLC but it turned out to be early onset dementia.

Here is the link:  http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3520246/Wife-split-Navy-veteran-husband-mid-life-crisis-later-diagnosed-dementia-aged-just-36.html#socialLinks
Title: Re: Links/blogs/articles for us all to share 4
Post by: Anjae on April 02, 2016, 04:04:31 PM
Thank you for posting the link here, Howmanytimes.

Like I said in your thread, I don't think most of our MLC are having early dementia. I agree some signs/symptoms can be similar, but, as a general rule, MLCers come out of MLC. Once their crisis is over, their behaviour goes back to normal. That does not happen with dementia.

Not saying that some MLCers may not be having early dementia (or not so early, since a few are on their 60's), but the way I see it, they are separated issues.

Could those who have MLC be more vulnerable to, later, have dementia? I really do not know. 
Title: Re: Links/blogs/articles for us all to share 4
Post by: kikki on April 02, 2016, 04:16:15 PM
Quote
Could those who have MLC be more vulnerable to, later, have dementia? I really do not know.

Yes apparently so.  Long term untreated depression has been proven to be an increased risk for later dementia :(.  It's somewhere in our 'brain' threads.
Title: Re: Links/blogs/articles for us all to share 4
Post by: Anjae on April 02, 2016, 04:20:31 PM
You're right Kikki.

Still, I do not know if we can use MLC depression in the same way as other types of depression.  We probably can.

MLC depression seems to be a beast of its own, and different from the other kinds. But, yes, most likely former MLCer are at a higher risk of having dementia.




Title: Re: Links/blogs/articles for us all to share 4
Post by: Songanddance on April 03, 2016, 12:43:47 AM
This is so reassuring - NOT!

My MIL had alzheimers and lasted 17 years from diagnosis at the age of 72 to her death in 89.

H has repeatedly said that he fears that his memory loss is a sign of dementia.  He phoned me two weeks ago asking where he lived as he couldn't remember where the house was.  That was a huge trigger for me as MIL used to do that in her very early stages repeatedly asking me where her two sons were as they hadn't come home for tea.

My own mother had early stage alzheimers and deteriorated very quickly from diagnosis at the age of 64 and died at 66 having lost her ability to speak clearly and to move.

However both women smoked and that is certainly a contributing factor.

There is also evidence that dementia is genetic so now I am through menopause and H is in MLC ....aaargh!!!! :o :o
Title: Re: Links/blogs/articles for us all to share 4
Post by: xyzcf on April 09, 2016, 09:59:38 PM
I will be obtaining more information about this and will share it here as I obtain it.

This morning, I went to an professional development training on Substance Abuse. I have heard this speaker, Lynn Reimer speak twice before. It was especially interesting as she discussed the impact of legalization of marijuana in Colorado. Not a pretty picture unfortunately.

I was struck by two things. That drug use burns through our dopamine transporters. We only have a finite number of these transporters and drugs use especially when the brain is still developing (at least until age 25) destroys this finite number. People who use drugs in their teen years, after the high wears off, they will not be able to feel happy ever again due to the decreased number of dopamine transporters...they basically will be depressed for the rest of their lives...existing in a state of anehedia- they feel nothing. They learn how to cope without "feelings" and manage to get through life. They will never get these transporters back.

Being a teenager in the 1970's, I know that my husband used lots of drugs and alcohol. Apparently it doesn't require really heavy drug use to destroy these transporters. He was somewhat moody when we first met, and throughout the 35 years together, he never really got very excited about anything...I now believe that he has been depressed all the time I have known him, possibly due to his experimentation with drugs at a time where his adolescent brain was in a critical developmental stage.

The other thing I learned were a few things about addiction. How exhibiting "good behavior" is used as a shield. To show the world that you are fine. With any addiction, it takes over your life. You have no morals, everything you care about goes out the window, you struggle with feeling good and stop caring about everything that matter to you once, you just do not care anymore.

The young women sharing her story of addiction, which by the way started when she was 13 and her parents divorced talked earnestly about how it did not matter what your addiction was to...the end result was the same. Destruction of everything that mattered.

I am a nurse, I do know about the neurotransmitters dopamine and serotonin that make us feel happy. Indeed, antidepressants stimulate the neuroreceptors to produce dopamine and serotonin...but if your brain does not have the transporters, to get these substances across the synapses, then AD's won't work.

A light went off today...not really one that I would have asked for but never the less a very good theory of what may have happened to those of us who have spouses who abused drugs or alcohol in the past.

I am going to contact the speaker and obtain more scientific research results and will post them when I get them...but wanted to share this because it struck me as being absolutely the truth.
Title: Re: Links/blogs/articles for us all to share 4
Post by: 1trouble on April 09, 2016, 10:35:43 PM
XYZ

I found your post very interesting, I have repeatedly put on my thread about 'Lettinggo', a past LBS having this theory that those MLC'ers that have had previous addiction problems would be more susceptible to the infatuation hormones from the OW, I think she had a point.

My H had a big coke problem years ago, he use to say he knew he had an addictive personality and that's why he stayed away from gambling because he realised he would have a problem if he started.

Also when I hired a private investigator to find out who OW was (after I saw the obsessive phone records and saw someone out side our house), the private investigator told me he had had a midlife crisis and had lost his business, his house, a ton of money and nearly lost his wife, he was also sectioned twice.
The last time he was sectioned the psychiatrist put him on SSRI's, this was the start of his recovery (he is still on them). The psychiatrist put him onto them because of his previous drug use.

He had been a big drug user during the 80's (as was my H) starting of with dope moving onto ecstasy and then onto coke binges (like my H).   Through the work he does now as an investigator he sees, what he believes, are so many cases of MLC and he calls it the "Essex disease" (the area we live in) because being near London it was associated with the Rave scene in the 80's 90's where drugs were rife.

He feels, like him, all these men and woman have damaged their receptors and this exacerbates the crisis. Whilst I've read SSRI's do not work for everyone, I think for those who have had a past like the PI and my H they might, though I note the expert you saw said AD's wont work, but was the lecture mainly about  marijuana?  because that works in a different way to coke.

People who use drugs in their teen years, after the high wears off, they will not be able to feel happy ever again due to the decreased number of dopamine transporters...they basically will be depressed for the rest of their lives...existing in a state of anehedia- they feel nothing.

The more I have read about depression I can now see my H has been battling silently with it for years and though I think he isn't living in a permanent state of severe anehedia I do believe he generally struggles and I do think there have been times when it has been pretty bad.  Sometimes he has articulated how he is feeling but it was cryptic and I didn't know then what I know now..

Its very very sad
Title: Re: Links/blogs/articles for us all to share 4
Post by: OldPilot on April 10, 2016, 02:25:20 AM
. It was especially interesting as she discussed the impact of legalization of marijuana in Colorado. Not a pretty picture unfortunately.

So are a lot of young people in COLO addicted to pot?
Interesting findings although I am not sure I have the same results, please let us know.
Title: Re: Links/blogs/articles for us all to share 4
Post by: Loyal on April 10, 2016, 03:26:30 AM
xyzcf  & 1trouble, my P has smoked pot regularly as long as I've known him (over 29 years) and thinking about it, he has always been very irritable & moody. What really worries me ist that he recently told me that his now ,not so new bunch of best friends sometimes take coke but he wouldn't dream of taking anything like that as he had tried it a couple of times when he was young and knows how addictive it can be. He has locked himself into his room 4 times for a period of 3-4 days each time since the beginning of December and has always led me to believe that he was sick. The last time this occured was over Easter, he went into his room on Thursay evening and didn't come out until the afternoon of Easter Monday. He kept sniffling and blowing his nose and it was only then that I realised what he'd been up to the times he's said he was sick  ;). That's one of the things I confronted him about yesterday (see my post), when I just flipped out. It's so sad that he's gotten into such bad company but this crowd of 50+ & mostly divorced male & female "In People" are now his "best friends", and he just loves telling them that I'm the bad one!
Title: Re: Links/blogs/articles for us all to share 4
Post by: Anjae on April 10, 2016, 05:29:13 PM
People who use drugs in their teen years, after the high wears off, they will not be able to feel happy ever again due to the decreased number of dopamine transporters...they basically will be depressed for the rest of their lives...existing in a state of anehedia- they feel nothing. They learn how to cope without "feelings" and manage to get through life. They will never get these transporters back.

I don't think this is true. At least not to all recreational drug users. I know several people who have used drugs as teenagers & young adults and they are perfectly fine, happy, healthy adults. I think it may depend of a series of factors: when it started, amount used and for how long, the person in itself, type of drug, etc.

Using marijuana is legal in Portugal. And there has not been any disastrous effect of it. In fact, there has been far less people in jail just because they have smoked a joint. No known increase in usage or in extremes cases. In fact, we are below the European average in drug usage. http://observador.pt/2015/06/04/droga-portugal-da-media-europeia-no-consumo-trafico/ (it is in Portuguese, but Google translator will give a help.  :) )

As you know, I have done the Drugs and the Brain course by Caltech on Coursera, and I'm slowly doing the The Addicted Brain, also on Coursera.

It is true drugs can damage the brain, but not everyone who uses drugs becomes an addict (with heroin one will), and of those who have become an addict, some can come out of it. Not all drug users have such damaged brains.

Xyzcf, I don't think your husband's drug use when he was young means he has always been unhappy/depressed and that he will never be out of MLC, or be happy again. That would be that there is no hope for former drug users, let alone true hard addicts, and there is.

Also, some MLCers, like Mr J, never used drugs. Yet, they have as deeper and messy crisis, they are as depressed and unhappy, as the MLCers who have used drugs.

And we need to establish a difference between people who have used drugs for a period, and those who have become addicts. It is not exactly the same thing.
Alcohol often causes far more damages than drugs. Well, alcohol is a drug.


Title: Re: Links/blogs/articles for us all to share 4
Post by: xyzcf on April 10, 2016, 05:47:30 PM
Drug use when the brain is still forming is only one thing perhaps that could have some causation. Indeed, there is now a clear link between marijuana use and schizophrenia, but the individual was predisposed to the illness...but it may never had surfaced if not for their use of marijuana.

What struck me was that the transponders, once they have been destroyed do not regenerate. They are necessary for the transportation of dopamine and serotonin and the comment made that once they were diminished, that someone might never be able to feel "happy". In an addicted brain, this seems to be what happens. People may not have developed an addiction to a drug, but they still may have sustained damage.

Marijuana is not the same plant today as it was in my teen years. In the 60-70's, the THC level was 2-7%, 2003 it was 14% and now, what I can easily buy in the several stores close by, the THC level is 18-35%, Wax, dabs, oil and hash are running at 50-90% THC. There is a transparent wax that is 98% pure THC.

In Colorado, teen marijuana use is 56% higher than the national average. In those developing brains and with the high concentration of THC, there are several serious problems.

She told a story about two recent grads, top of their class who were hired by a NY financial firm. When they got there, prior to starting work, they had to have a hair sample which showed they had been exposed to marijuana in the last 90 days. Their contracts were immediately cancelled.

Other stories involved kids who were refused scholarships because they tested positive. The impact is significant. 36% more drug related traffic deaths in Colorado since marijuana was legalized.

Just like one alcoholic beverage during a critical time of pregnancy can cause a serious damaging effect on the fetus, it is not inconceivable to me that drug use could cause the development of a mental health issue. It is just another part of the puzzle.

When I look back, my husband just never got very excited about things in life. Getting a new car, traveling, being promoted...he just did not respond with the enthusiasm that I did.....I thought he was just "quieter" than me...but I have always known him to be this way...just not very turned onto much (except music perhaps). His work has been his addiction for several years prior to BD. I used to think that I would stand a better chance against another woman than I would against his job.As it turned out, that was the truth.
Title: Re: Links/blogs/articles for us all to share 4
Post by: Hopeful Romantic on April 14, 2016, 04:05:06 PM
Saw this today and thought to put it here....I know almost all of us are waiting for a true apology, and know that some of us may never get it, but here's what a REAL one should look like (according to science). Happy reading!

http://www.iflscience.com/editors-blog/heres-best-way-apologize-according-science

Title: Re: Links/blogs/articles for us all to share 4
Post by: Anjae on April 14, 2016, 05:19:50 PM
Interesting article. Hopeful Romantic.

I think 2 is not possible for MLCers. They have no idea what happened, let alone what went wrong.

I would do with 3 and 5. 1 would also be ok, but 2, 4 and 6 I could pass. The most important ones for me really are 3 and 5, especially 5.
Title: Re: Links/blogs/articles for us all to share 4
Post by: 31andcounting on April 15, 2016, 08:21:01 AM
I agree with Anjae.  I received all of this when H came through...but #2 "the why"  was not complete as he did not know why?  He knew he had checked out and pulled away from me but as to why really.....no answers just "some thoughts"
31

new thread: http://mlcforum.theherosspouse.com/index.php?topic=7723.0