Midlife Crisis: Support for Left Behind Spouses
Archives => Archived Topics => Topic started by: Rollercoasterider on July 28, 2016, 03:49:03 PM
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What is Your Understanding of MLC and of my articles?
I think those are really two separate questions. I often read someone saying to another person that they have a good understanding of MLC and sometimes this is said together with them being told they understand my articles or their understanding of MLC or perhaps way of dealing with it is in-line with my articles.
GREAT! AWESOME!
The problem however is that included either between the lines or stated directly is that the person has a better understanding of MLC or what I have written and perhaps my philosophy than other people. This is what puzzles me because often to me the other people being silently alluded to don’t seem to be lacking in their understanding.
So I am asking you to simply state your understanding of MLC and your understanding of my message through my writings. My hope is that I will get a better understanding of how each of you are interpreting my work—my philosophy regarding Standing, view of MLC…
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My understatement of MLC is that its roots are biochemical (this encompasses brain and body - biochemical means relating to the chemical processes and substances which occur within living organisms). There could be some genetic predisposition, but I don't have much to base it upon. Some MLCer have a parent (or parents) that have had MLC, other don't.
Your articles pick on Jungian theory. That was how I arrived here, googling Jung + midlife crisis. In Jungian theory what we call midlife crisis is a transition period, a transformation. It starts with separation and ends with reintegration. The individual has to go through a trying psychologic and emotional period, after which they are reborn. After rebirth, there is reintegration, and the person has become a better, mature version of itself.
That was more or less my view of MLC before I start to become familiar with neuroscience/neurobiology/biology, as well as observing real life midlife cases and reading the board stories. There is one common denominator to MLCer, high levels of stress. And depression, of course. Cover for high energy one, more over for wallowers.
I think to a certain extent to believe/think the LBS has some influence upon the MLCer crisis. I don't agree with that. Even in Jungian theory the identity crisis is personal, not related to the marriage or the spouse. For someone who thinks MLC is biochemical, MLC is an issue that only pertains to the MLCer. Circumstances may, and often do, affect a person an their behaviours, but there is no way of knowing what or who affect the MLCer. It could had been work, friends, hobbies, family of origin or any other issue. The only thing I manage to gather and to align with MLCer as a whole is stress.
You philosophy regarding Standing stems from not liking divorce, think that MLC is temporary (it is) and that it is worthy to wait for the MLCer crisis to end. You also think reconnections/reconciliations are more likely if the MLCer returns within 3-3-5 years. I believe you also see standing as a grace period for the LBS. It allows us time to process, detach, thing, work on ourselves.
What I think the articles do not reflect is that, often, MLC last a real long time (I don't mean 5 or 7 years) and all that happens during that time. They also do not reflect what we have been seeing, MLCer who have been in crisis for years divorcing at year 5, 9, etc. I think you had not factored that many crisis could last so long, and that Escape & avoid could be up to 10 or more years. Nor that at year 5 or 9, or 10, a MLCer may still be deep in crisis and divorce their LBS so many years after BD.
The idea that MLC last, on average 3-7 years does not seem very accurate. There are many LBS here whose spouse has been in Escape & Avoid for more than 5 years and MLC does not end with Escape & Avoid.
It may also be asking too much from people to remain married to someone who has been in crisis for so long and not to move on with their lives, leaving the MLCer behind for good. It is not very realistic to expect reconnections or reconciliations in large, or even medium, numbers, when so many MLCer take so long in their crisis.
Do MLCer really become a better version of themselves after the crisis? I think so, but it would not be far fetched to realise that after so many years, even if the MLCer is a better person, MLCer and LBS may no longer share a connection, have similar interests and goals, etc. Not to mention that the type of love to sustain a relationship may no longer be there. Agape can be there, but agape does not sustain a relationship/marriage.
To a point, you underestimate the damages of all sort the MLCer causes. I suppose early on, when HS started, you had a more romantic view of MLC. You have been adjustting the average times of MLC, which show that early on who though it lasted far less than it does. The articles also do not leave it clear that monster can be present for a decade or so. Nor that the Replay behaviour can last that long and keep increasing for years on end.
From the articles one has the notion MLC will last a while, a good while, but not that long and that the MLCer may more or less be tired of the Replay behaviour relatively soon, that a deeper depression will set in, and, gradually, the MLCer will be seeing the light at the end of the tunnel. The Replay time is extremely long.
OW/OM, they are a symptom, but they are also the most damaging part of MLC. And, in my view, affair is not the word to describe a relationship that is often marital like and can last many, many years. For me, affair is short lived, intense thing, not living with OW/OM for 6 or 8 or more years. OW/OM and MLCer relationships may not be good, but they can last more than some marriages.
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My understatement of MLC is that its roots are biochemical (this encompasses brain and body - biochemical means relating to the chemical processes and substances which occur within living organisms). There could be some genetic predisposition, but I don't have much to base it upon. Some MLCer have a parent (or parents) that have had MLC, other don't.
Your articles pick on Jungian theory. That was how I arrived here, googling Jung + midlife crisis. In Jungian theory what we call midlife crisis is a transition period, a transformation. It starts with separation and ends with reintegration. The individual has to go through a trying psychologic and emotional period, after which they are reborn. After rebirth, there is reintegration, and the person has become a better, mature version of itself.
That was more or less my view of MLC before I start to become familiar with neuroscience/neurobiology/biology, as well as observing real life midlife cases and reading the board stories. There is one common denominator to MLCer, high levels of stress. And depression, of course. Cover for high energy one, more over for wallowers.
This is so well articulated and tends to correspond to what I believe as well. I think that something acute must happen to the brain in MLC. It is hard to account for otherwise the very similar thought and behavior patterns, eccentricities, and even physical changes we all observe so identically in what we are observing. I think that if this were only a Jungian journey most of these crisis would end much more quickly and personality and behavior changes would not be so radical.
Whatever it is, I think it is definitely related to depression, bipolar, and possibly dementia as well. I would love to see some articles (on this site or elsewhere) interviewing neurologists about what the behavior patterns so many of us observe may be reflecting.
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I've found this site and your philosophies hugely helpful over the years, RRR. The ideas of how to handle the aberrant behaviours of our MLCer, of detachment, mirroring, working on ourselves, agape; the community you have set up here, the information, is all hugely helpful for those of us who arrive, emotional bruised and confused and wanting some glimmer of hope.
As for MLC itself, I don't think it can be so easily and succinctly described. It's certainly not based on biochemistry. Biochemistry is always intertwined with the person in social context. There is no separation.
MLC is not an inevitable process that all people pass through, but there are certainly crises. They're not all to do with aging, but some of them are. There can be biochemical triggers for depression and delusions, some of which can be age related. But most of all the crisis is one of imploding identity, when the stories MLCers have told themselves no longer make sense. Our autobiographical stories are constantly changing, but sometimes they begin to generate conflict with the self one truly believes oneself to be. There is no "soul-pearl" of the autobiographical self, and neurological self is deeply hidden beneath autobiographical and emotional self according to neuroscience.
Neuroscience cannot explain the interplay of the developing self in the social world, and clearly, in some cases, our MLCers have unresolved issues to deal with arising from different points of their lives, leading to sets of defence mechanisms which eventually break down or get accentuated. In some cases, we discover that our MLCer has a deep personality disorder; in other cases, trauma from their past or childhood; in some cases they just haven't grown up fully, and can't handle responsibility, or, in some cases, it's a question of Eriksonnian fulfilment.
There is no "one size fits all", so the idea that "they" will all go through a set of fixed "stages" is also false, as in many areas of psychology. Some may certainly go through systematic readjustment and growth. They will certainly not gravitate back to us while we are angry, blaming or begging. Our growth is in parallel to theirs, and sometimes this growth, together with compassion, can lead to reconnection.
The stories we tell ourselves about MLC perhaps help us to accept their behaviour, to forgive them, to understand that we have a role to play.
But most of all, what helps us is the idea that we are responsible for ourselves. We get that message here so clearly, kindly and with so much support, that it's surely the greatest strength of this forum.
So, I'm sorry if I'm not the perfect reader of you work. As an academic, I read widely, deeply and critically. As a person, I thank you from the bottom of my heart.
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In the interests of your research, I will respond to your question regarding how I individually interpret your work, but do first want to also offer an individual perspective on this statement:
The problem however is that included either between the lines or stated directly is that the person has a better understanding of MLC or what I have written and perhaps my philosophy than other people. This is what puzzles me because often to me the other people being silently alluded to don’t seem to be lacking in their understanding.
From my lived experience, when a statement is made about such-and-so having a good understanding of MLC, it is not made within the context of having a better understanding than it is an effort to diffuse situations where someone in a power position may be attempting to either impose a viewpoint or discredit a viewpoint of another. This occurs when either a close relationship with you or familiarity with the articles is used as leverage.
To be respectful but direct, RCR, lenses tend to have a variable calibration and it is not so much a question of reading between the lines as it is differential treatment of who has written the lines that contributes to an environment of one-up or down-manship.
In regards to your second question, this is my understanding and interpretation of your work.
I believe that there are both physiological and psychological influences on MLC, and that chemical and FOO issues can live in harmony. I also believe that MLC is internal to the MLCer. Tthat there are stages they pass though, in cycles, that do take a lot of time.
Having an appreciation for the stages and the timelines is an important foundation for the LBS, I believe, because it helps the LBS understand the context within which they must make their own decisions and work on their own growth.
I understand the sections on Mirror work are the most applicable to the LBS, because that is the only arena in which the LBS has any direct influence and control.
And, I find believe the articles on Paving the Way and the Unconditionals to be the ones least referenced, and increasingly least modelled or supported on the forum and on the board. This can make it difficult to encourage some kinds of Standing actions such as not helping with the separation or divorce, or compassionate contact with the MLCer.
The articles on Letting Go and Detachment are complex, and well articulated. I understand these to be about the LBS state of being and state of mind, rather than about communication and behaviour. These are areas where I sense my interpretation tends to differ from many others on the board.
There are lots of other resources available on the web, and I find many of these resources/philosophies are imported into the forum in ways that are -- within my understanding -- both helpful and potentially detrimental to the overall guidance provided by your work, particularly when these resources applied in a blanket fashion, and without context.
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And, I find believe the articles on Paving the Way and the Unconditionals to be the ones least referenced, and increasingly least modelled or supported on the forum and on the board. This can make it difficult to encourage some kinds of Standing actions such as not helping with the separation or divorce, or compassionate contact with the MLCer.
Maybe I would agree on this to the extent of type of bomb drop and post-bomb drop behavior. I think because bomb drop may not indicate MLC but a whole variety of personality disorders, mental illness, medical issue, or other psychological or psychiatric problem, it is important to be cautious at this time and number one protect mental and physical safety of the LBS. In case of emotional/psychological abuse I think that LBS should not be thinking of paving the way but rather staying away. In the case of pathological MLCer it may include taking steps to protect privacy and even restraining orders.
Some of these MLCers are so abusive and delusional that the LBS will be targeted no matter what he or she does or says.
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I found The Hero's Spouse on a particular horrific day about seven months post-BD and 6 months after my xH moved out, but was still a clinging boomerang. I found the main site first, not the forum, but I was drawn to participate once I saw the commonalities.
First and foremost I resonated with your story. There was a picture of you and Chuck on the front page, I believe (or maybe I found your story page first), and knowing that the story had a happy ending was the first time someone had even suggested to me that this horrible situation I'd been in for so long (where I was seemingly the only person feeling that under the veneer of hate, spew, and infidelity, my husband might still exist) might really be as false as I felt it was. There was hope that the nightmare might end!
I poured over the articles because for once they were just explaining things from a perspective of 1) someone who had been through it 2) place of clarity. What I was feeling from the other "stop your divorce" landing pages was that I needed to get sucked into a sales funnel and wrap my whole life around a program if I was going to save my marriage. There was none of that at Hero's Spouse.
The Jungian research hit me at the emotional, philosophical level I had been living at. I ate it up. HB's words as well. I felt both of you were very complimentary to each other from the perspective that brought emotional, psychological, and spiritual together. I liked how inclusive the forum was to everyone, and I felt validated, respected, and at home here.
What message did I perceive? That you believe in marriage and would like to stop divorce, and that maybe if others understood MLC from your perspective, they would not take the world view about what is happening to their spouse and jump to the conclusion of ending their marriages before letting this dis-ease run its course. I don't think your writing aims to define the origin of or cure MLC. I think it helps us cope with LBS-hood.
I was inspired to research the way you did, RCR. For some of us, that's also part of the journey. I think biochemistry does play a role (chicken or the egg as it may be), but I think having a grasp of the big picture from every angle is important, including commonalities of FOO, life patterns, psychology, etc.
I think you focus on the role of the spouse because we are all here as spouses of MLCers. I think that makes sense. I still believe, as it has been said here many times, "You didn't cause it and you can't cure it." But I don't think that's the point of your work, either.
The lines get blurred because we don't have a wonderful DGU pointing us back to the articles and keeping us focused! :) We all have strong personalities and beliefs, and new people come here now and are influenced by many different points of view who are at every different stage imaginable. It is a wonderful melting pot, but at the same time, it can breed a little confusion. We can all only express what in our hearts we feel. If we see someone hurting, we each may have a different view on the best way to end that pain. The forum, as much of a godsend as it is, can be a crutch. If you're spending more time commiserating, reinforcing the negatives in your situation instead of the positives, and transferring co-dependence from your absent spouse to us strangers - then it's time to read other things (for at least a few minutes a day). Spending time with the articles are the best way to receive one-on-one guidance and coaching from RCR when you're not getting one-on-one time with her! Before you cry out for more attention on your threads (and this is aimed at no one in particular), remember that you have 24/7 access to tips that will soothe you.
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RCR,
Nice of you to ask our opinions. :)
I got home late, just read this and will need to collect my thoughts before answering.
Yawn...too tired right now.
Just know I found your articles and all your research more than helpful and spot on. ;D
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Me, too.... a bit tired and emotional right now, but I, too, want to respond properly, and that means thinking out the answer a bit.
Suffice to say right now that when I found HS, even before the forum started, it offered a different perspective, even from the other MLC forum where I had been for the first couple of years -- this was the first one that actually offered something practical and didn't make me feel crazy for wanting my marriage.
I now think that even the 3-7 year timeline is very conservative, but at the time that seemed so reasonable, given that other places were saying "well, if he hasn't come round in 6 months it's a lost cause....".
More as I gather my thoughts...
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So I am asking you to simply state your understanding of MLC and your understanding of my message through my writings. My hope is that I will get a better understanding of how each of you are interpreting my work—my philosophy regarding Standing, view of MLC…
My emphasis on the word simply.
Jeez, I thought I was going to get to bed early tonight for a change. ::)
This is a pretty challenging request. How does one "simply" state one's understanding of something as complex and multifaceted as MLC and how does one "simply" summarize one's understanding of RCR's work when that body of work comprises well over 100 book sections, 158 blog articles, and numerous FAQs linking to hundreds of pages of forum posts? Especially when that understanding has shifted over time. And how does one provide enough support for one's understanding of MLC to deflect the challenges that are likely to come from others with differing views while keeping one's response brief?
My solution to the problem of simply stating my understanding is that I will do just that, briefly summarize with little explanation or supporting documentation. My solution to the problem of my understanding shifting over time will be to divide my response into two time periods, my initial impression and my impression after enough time has passed for investigation and consideration. My solution to the problem of deflecting challenges will be to post the following DISCLAIMER: My study and analysis has focused on just two actual incidences of behavior that seem to follow the pattern that is described here as MLC. The first subject is my wife and her crisis. The second subject is me and what I've learned and am still learning about the crisis I experienced during the period from roughly 3.5 years before the BD from my wife to roughly 1.5 years before the BD from my wife. I've read numerous threads on this forum describing other suspected MLC cases and, while there are a lot of similarities, the only knowledge I have of these cases is sketchy and anecdotal so I can't say with any degree of certainty that the conclusions I've reached apply beyond the two situations mentioned earlier. Draw your own conclusions.
FIRST IMPRESSION OF MLC
I had no first impression of MLC because I had no clue what was happening. I was stunned and in shock. The woman I had known for 36 years had suddenly and completely changed into a selfish, uncaring, and unfeeling stranger who was doing things that were completely out of character and for which there seemed to be no logical explanation. Furthermore, her behavior was inconsistent with both her pre-BD behavior and also her behavior from day to day post-BD and she seemed to be confused and unsure about what was happening to her. At first I thought it was my fault or due to something I had done but I quickly realized she was moving away from not just me but the whole family.
FIRST IMPRESSION OF THE ARTICLES AND RCR'S POINT OF VIEW
The Heroes Spouse site was a godsend because it was the first place where I found information that seemed to apply to my situation. The Jungian analysis seemed to explain what I was seeing and why it was happening in a way that made sense. I particularly liked the site because it was pro-marriage and didn't preach a kick them to the curb response. The articles helped me to believe that what my wife was going through was a long but usually temporary condition and that there was an explanation for her behavior other than that she was a horrible person. The site also seemed to advocate treating the MLC spouse with love and compassion which was my preferred approach and, while it stressed that we didn't cause this and we couldn't cure it, there were things that we could do called Paving the Way that might make it more likely that my wife would eventually choose to return. I was initially repelled by the forum because there were so many stories about betrayed and hurting people and few success stories using my definition of success being a restored marriage. I was initially confused by the seemingly diametrically opposed messages that I didn't cause my wife's crisis but that I needed to work on myself.
MY LATER BELIEFS ABOUT MLC
I was desperate to understand the minute details underlying MLC so that I could find a way to help my wife get through it before she carved the path of destruction I read about on so many forum threads or at least be able to explain it to our family so they would not turn away from her. While I thought the articles were good, they seemed like a "flyover" view of MLC, not a ground level description. What I've since learned is that my wife and I both were raised in severely emotionally abusive and in my case probably physically abusive and in my wife's case definitely physically abusive and probably sexually abusive environments. From the day we were born we were repeatedly traumatized by the people who were supposed to love and nurture us and neither of us had anyone with whom we could form a secure attachment. And I learned that childhood trauma or severe longterm childhood stress coupled with a lack of secure attachment and other related FOO issues could and probably would lead to the situation that I knew as MLC. And I learned that viewing this as a trauma/attachment condition was not inconsistent with viewing it as a hormonal/chemical condition because trauma or severe longterm stress during early childhood developmental stages can alter the brain's structure so that the individual's response to brain chemistry, stress chemicals and hormones can be permanently affected. These alterations of the brain's structure have been viewed using fMRI imaging.
MY LATER IMPRESSION OF THE ARTICLES AND RCR'S POINT OF VIEW
As I learned more about the effects of developmental trauma/insecure attachment it appeared to be, for my wife and I, the ground level view I was looking for to go along with the flyover view described in RCR's articles. In fact, the similarities were so striking that I repeatedly wondered if RCR had known about the effects of developmental trauma/insecure attachment when she wrote the articles and chose to simplify by describing the flyover view in the articles. If so, the decision would have made sense since so many LBSes initially come to the site in a state of shock.
Some of the similarities include both having a triggering event, covert depression, identity crisis, identity confusion, a fractured personality that is resolved through an integration process, the presence of a shadow, archetypes or alters, sudden mood changes, a strong likelihood that an affair partner will be similar to someone the person had problems with as a child, and personality cycling. Both take a lot of time to resolve. Both often result in destroyed relationships and finances. Both may resolve on their own without therapy although therapy is far more successful for resolving developmental trauma than the hands-off approach which often is unsuccessful (unsuccessful is defined as not occurring within a reasonably short timeframe). Both involve sudden, radical personality changes happening with people who appeared to be well-adjusted. Both can include confused thinking, fogginess, concentration problems, and memory loss or memory lapses regarding specific information, situations, or time periods.
I continue to believe the articles advocate a loving, compassionate, and nonjudgmental approach towards the MLC spouse. I've read articles recommending a similar approach be used when dealing with survivors of childhood trauma.
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I am not on the forum often these days - I have stepped down from my stand and moved on (my XH has now got a child with OW/new partner and even if I stepped down before, to me this is a final dealbreaker for ever reconciling -- how could we ever reconcile without doing more damage to yet another child, and perhaps even our S who are now starting to adjust to the new family formation? What would make me better than OW if we did?). Yet, I found this site immensely helpful, and I am forever grateful for my decision to stand. To me, this was the main advantage of the advice here, even though I think it can also be a pitfall, if not practiced in a way that allows the LBS to detach and do mirror work. I tried to separate the response into the two questions, but didn't manage to, but I hope my response is still a help.
It was now a while since I read your texts, but at the time, I read everything many times. I am interested in psychoanalysis, even though Freud and Lacan speaks more to me. This does not mean that I'm not interested in neurobiology (won't go into it exactly here, but I think precisely the connections between psychoanalysis and neurobiology are interesting). This means that I found it slightly difficult to relate to the Jungian terminology, and felt the need to "translate" it in my head, and relate it to the paradigms that I feel more comfortable with. What it did, however, was that it helped me to find a "narrative" to "think with". I read a lot of other things, and found a very interesting book on midlife crisis from the Lacanian point of view, which I fould helpful, and to a great extent compatible with the perspective on here. I am sometimes ambivalent about the very term MLC, BUT it does help us to pinpoint great similarities between what these spouses seem to be going through, and especially how they react to them. Now, after I have moved on, it doesn't really matter to me whether it "was really" MLC or not - but it helped to see that my XH followed a pattern that many other people also follow, and it still helps me to hold onto the idea that what happened to me was not just simply a "normal divorce" but something more and much more destructive.
Retroactively, I think (like some other people on here) that your focus on what you call mirror work was (and is!!!) the most helpful. This gave me strength to focus on ME, which is the only thing we can do. I had already started to meditate. Took a course in buddhist meditation, and I now consider myself a Buddhist, even if I don't often speak about it openly but try to practice it. It's basically compatible with your perspective: agape/loving-kindness, taking case of oneself not just for the sake of being "selfish" (in the narrow sense of the word) but in order to build mental and emotional capacity to act towards the world and ourselves with compassion, building self-awareness etc. I have also gone to individual councelling (just took it up again with a psychoanalytically trained therapist), which has also been tremendously important for my mirror work. I try to look after myself physically, by excercising, getting rest, seek companionship with friends and build new relationships and just enjoying myself now and then. I have become kinder to myself and others. I think this needs to be the focus, really, especially since this is the one thing that will prepare the LBS for a better life, with or without the MLC:er.
As I mentioned, I am so, so happy about the concept and practice of standing. Even if I am no longer standing it gave me that opportunity to give myself enough time to focus on myself and my mirror work and not making any premature decisions (if I hadn't, I could easily have entered into a rebound relationship, which would have been destructive when I was still in crisis). Also, I can look back and KNOW that I did everything I possibly could to keep the relationship intact. This means that I can honestly tell myself (or my son) that I could not have done anything more. This makes me feel calm about what happened, and free to live my life here and now without having to wonder what could have happened if I had "tried harder". I worry sometimes that standing can be practiced without mirror work, that it can then prevent the LBS from moving ahead with his or her life. You mention this yourself, I think, the risk of just focussing on the MLC:er, timelines and so on, and just see the stand as a "wait", so this is not absent in your ideas, but as desperate as many of us are initially, there is a risk of getting stuck there.
Oh, and lastly, I'm still slightly curious whether XH will or will not follow the rest of the suggested pattern and "come out of the tunnel" eventually. I'm not sure, and it matters less and less to me, but still curious - and I'll update on here about what happens.
Thanks for a great site, and I hope this helps a tiny bit to answer your questions!
Gimlan x
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OK this is a great discussion post.
And to start out with I think I have forgotten more than I have learned at this point.
Since every day I post an article or blog post on Hero's Spouse facebook page I have seen most of these articles numerous times.
I am not DGU and do not have them all memorized, but I have read over 30 books
that pertain to the subject and am involved in HS, DB,MA, MB forums as well as three or four now defunct ones.
So my definition of the causes of an MLC are this.
MLC is kind of like the perfect storm. Everything falls into place, all the wrong things happen at once. Look at the parts that make up a MLC. Hormones out of wack, depression, death or trauma of someone close to the MLC'er. Transition time in life. Something went wrong in their childhood that they never resolved. Their inner child and outer child are at odds with each other.
This then causing the MLC'er to begin a search for what went wrong in their life and possibly a desire to FIX themselves.(eventually)
So I do agree with Anjae that their is a lot of science involved in MLC, along with FOO, genetics, and other witches brew factors.
I think my thoughts fairly well follow RCR's definitions from the articles.
Standing has also been thought of as a GRACE time period to sort out the LBS's
life before they continue to move forward with the rest of it.
I think that the 2-7 year or 3-7 year time period that is alloted by the articles is WAY too short but I understand the reasoning that you would prefer not to scare people away right off the bat.
I did not learn about MLC here but mostly on the DB forum from Snodderly, Hearts blessing and other younger posters.
RCR also started out in the same place and I certainly read a lot of her advice that was then posted there.
A lot of the older advice there is now purged so going back to re-read it is difficult if not impossible.
The good thing is we have a lot of it on this forum now.
I have gone back this morning to try to refresh my memory and some things stand out
Understand, also, this journey must continue to made alone, no one can "fix" it or "do it for them."
Another gem
They are still secretive, somewhat asserting their privacy, much like a teen-ager, but during this time, they must be gently but firmly led along, and only when the time is right-a wrong word at the wrong time will cause them to "stick" within the tunnel.
Now what does leading them mean?
And what does getting stuck mean?
My understanding and I have seen it in myself is that sometimes a cycle can start and be repeated over and over again until it is broken.
So if this happens is the crisis prolonged?
Do we influence the crisis.
Well- yes and no, I think by NOT detaching and not working on ourselves
we can continue the cyucles that are repeated over and over again.
Finally
They will have learned many things concerning life, and will be changed permanently as they will NEVER be the same, ever again.
I think this applies to both the MLC'er and the LBS
Life will change - you can not go back to the way it was before and everything
will permanently change and NEVER be the same.
SO I am not sure if it answered the question but it did spark me into a little review.
Thanks for asking.
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:)
Somehow, I feel as if I am in school and need to get get good marks on the test :P
I agree with OP, maybe I have forgotten more than I have learned!
Simply put:
I learnt about MLC from this site, from RCR's articles and coaching.
I quickly put two and two together and discovered that my FIL had a MLC too, so I am very squarely in the camp of those who believe that FOO issues are very relevant to my h's crisis. I am also interested in brain functioning (a son who had brain cancer) and neuroscience.
The mirror work articles helped me to curb my reactive attitudes and reminded me to forgive always.
My choice is standing for my marriage and for my husband, I have found mostly support for my choice here and I appreciate the perspectives of other long time standers.
Like others have pointed out, the time this is taking is very daunting and I suppose that those who do not have a faith based approach to standing might become quite discouraged when we see no evidence of our spouses returning/coming out of their tunnels at 4, 5, 6 years and even more. I am a little leery of saying that I 'trust the process' or that 'in the end, the LBS gets to choose'. I don't see it like that from where I am. Perhaps the 'process' part will work itself out, however, I fail to see where I really get a choice - I get a choice in how I respond, in my attitude towards things, in how I conduct my life.
I would like a restored marriage and I don't get a choice there - I can do my part, be still, get on with my life, be responsible in my actions, not pursue, whatever... In fact, I have learnt here, that there is practically nothing I can do that will make any difference and I can do all the opposite of the above and it will make no difference except maybe extend his crisis (God forbid!). The choice I have is how I deal with what has happened to my family, how I make the best of a disaster, the choice to trust God entirely even when I don't understand.
Just my musings of where I am and what I understand of MLC.
My 'strength' in standing does not come from understanding MLC but in my trust in God.
I am curious and I like to know 'how things work', that is my nature - this site and RCR's articles have been instrumental in this.
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Simply put, I believe MLC is a severe crisis of identity. I believe it is rooted in childhood and FOO issues, but there must be something more to it than that to cause some people with childhood wounding to be fine at midlife and others to go crazy and turn their worlds upside down. I agree that 3-7 years seems conservative at this point from what I have observed.
I do not believe we caused their crisis or contributed to it. I think it would have happened no matter who they were married to. Therefore, I don't think we can change their crisis. It is their journey to navigate, and they choose to do so without us. We have our own journeys to travel. If it were a marriage issue, so many of them would not walk away from parenting, cut ties to other people, and destroy finances.
I do think that the best thing we can do is step out of the way, live our lives the best we can for ourselves and our kids (if we have them), and choose joy. Let them have their crises. They are going to whether we want them to or not.
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I know this isn't a debate about whether MLC is neurological or not, but I did want to mention that long-term cases, and especially those that get progressively worse, may not be MLC but behavior variant frontotemporal lobe dementia. Much of what we see here on this forum (lack of empathy, hypersexual behavior) is an early side effect.
Just thought I would offer that to anyone who has been experiencing this for many years. Here is the link: http://www.theaftd.org/understandingftd/disorders/bv-ftd
(Update apparently it is fatal, so unlikely that this is what it is. However, it seems to match quite closely.)
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I think this is a really interesting thread! I agree with Mitzpah that faith probably a big difference with regards to stand for the long term or not. I believe in commitment, mature love and growing together, and I know for sure that it would have been better for my son not having to live through H's crisis and our separation, so up until a certain point it was worth standing (in terms of trying to remain married, but because my marriage was never based on any theistic belief, when a certain point was crossed, it no longer made sense for me to stand. I felt that while I never had the choice in the sense of making him come back, it was empowering to have the choice whether to stand or not, regardless of his decision. It will always have been his decision to leave, but it was my choice whether to remain committed to our marriage and family, if that makes sense. Sorry, don't mean to hijack the thread.
Hugs, Gx
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I was raised Catholic, married in a Protestant church, then renewed our vows 7 years later in the Catholic church. In the eyes of the Catholic church it doesn't matter what happens in divorce court, my wife and I will still be married. I take some comfort from that and agree that it probably does make standing easier. OTOH, knowing there is no alternative to being alone or reconciling may make acceptance and/or letting go more difficult.
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Thank you kindly for this thread, it's a wonderful review. I think before I saw this website, my blurry knee-jerk impression of MLC was fast cars, faster women, a punchline to a bad joke. Then my H came home from a climbing trip raging like the sasquatch... and suddenly I had some frantic reading to do. Found Laura Munson's article in the New York Times, and somehow bounced from there to here. RCR, I found your articles a mind-opener.
I have a medical background, used to work in family psych - and at BD, everything I observed about my H screamed mental health issue in bold caps. So perhaps it's confirmation bias, but I tend to accept the neuropsychological etiology of MLC. But that doesn't negate accepting the philosophical etiology (we are after all a bag o' biochemistry that thinks, and that uses metaphor to understand our own thinking organ), the philosophical explanation made it possible for me to comprehend the fracture with identity/reality that is MLC.
The parts of your essays that I read (and practiced) most often early along were the Paving the Way bits (admittedly, for all the wrong reasons - if I did the right thing, I thought, my H would see me again and just fix himself! Um, no...). The parts I understood least were about Mirror Work - lots there, but no prescriptions - felt like yelling at the mirror "But what do you want me to do??" Eventually I realized that the lack of prescriptives in that essay permitted me to find my own answers; that was a zen master trick, RCR. The most practically useful essays for me were on Detachment - that instruction was a lifeline, and possibly literally saved my life when my stay-at-home MLCer was escalating dangerously. I learned to efface myself, and take myself (at least virtually) out of the room. This is not too different from what Al-Anon teaches to people living with an addict; but placed into the philosophical context of MLC, I understood the reason for it.
In the end, my H acted like he'd read the dang book - staggered through his MLC along the shortest likely timeline, managed not to shame himself completely out of attempting a return, and then showed up like a bad penny in hope that I'd simply not mention the last three years. I'm very clear in feeling the end of his MLC was by no means a vindication of my Standing, nor of my mirror work - it's just luck, which may turn again if a bad breeze blows though my H's head. Or through my own; lord knows I still have work to do.
Where I admit I have difficulty is on the issue of the LBS's role in precipitating the MLC. This question has been a source of friction on the board as well, I think. I truly don't believe anything I did caused my H to dive down "the U-bend of life". I don't at all feel comfortable thinking he returned because I changed something about myself that had contributed to a problem in our marriage. If there's blame or shame in this journey, it's not mine (because it wasn't my journey?). Maybe I'm being recalcitrant, and unwilling to accept my responsibility. I'd be open to a better understanding of this. But perhaps there are existing articles that I haven't read, that address this question?
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I think the articles that helped me the most were the articles about the relationship with the alienator. I needed reassurance that it wasn't really true love and my wife hadn't really found her soulmate. I also needed help understanding how she could choose to leave me for an immoral, degenerate lowlife with a history of failed relationships. I can understand the identity crisis and all of that, I experienced that myself, but the affair relationship moves this into a different dimension.
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I'm the heretic here.
I know this isn't a scientific forum, and much of what is written is based on belief, conjecture, interpretation. People have the right to their beliefs, and if it helps to cope with the shock and trauma of the spousal crisis, then perhaps there isn't any harm in this.
Where it can be harmful is when the beliefs about the nature of MLC holds LBS to a false hope, and stops them moving forward. Some of the beliefs are based on just one book, with no scientific backing at all
There is no scientific basis which connects the varieties of behaviour exhibited by the spouses here, no one single "MLC", no one single cause and no one single solution. There is no process to follow. The idea of a tunnel is a euphemism for an inability to see around. I suggest we all go through tunnels periodically. Moreover, our rationality is typically very limited at most times.
Yes, there are crises, plural (ours and theirs), and there are better and worse ways of dealing with them. That's the beauty of this forum.
Identity, trauma, PD, depression (but seriously! Not ft dementia!), many explanations, not one. There are many academic papers dismissing the notion of a MLC. There are crises, but affect only 10% of American men, less in other cultures.
However, their does seem to be a U-curve for happiness, in which happiness declines from the 20s, reaches its lowest point in the 40s or 50s, then increases. This is true across cultures, genders, and even for apes. This is not the same as MLC, but perhaps this emotional low is the trigger for some people who have other issues to resolve.
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I don't know if this will be relevant but..
When I first posted ( 2010) I was looking for back up for my then 17 year old D. The ex wanted her to meet the now exow. I kept telling her she didn't have to. Generous people posted so I could show her it was OK to tell her father she did not want to meet her. She did tell him, she was scared to death, but she did it.
I must admit I misunderstood a lot on this site.I didn't read many of the articles because some of it didn't make sense or maybe apply to my situation. I couldn't figure out how to detach and stay in contact. I wasn't getting hit with enough 2 x 4's I guess. The only way I could detach successfully is to go total NC.
He was saying nasty things in 2010-11 ..No boundaries Just show up at my work or my home. No one has to listen to the vile things they say or tolerate their entitled attitude. I still read about MLCer's doing this.
IMHO to hell with standing for your marriage stand up for yourself. Hang up the phone on them or if they are harassing you call the cops. Kindness translates to weakness to them.
Going back after a year was a huge mistake(me foolishly thinking from reading on here I was dealing with someone in an MLC) and took a major toll on me at every possible level. It isn't he wasn't ready or not fully baked. The oven is broke in his situation.
The ex is an abusive man and always will be. So MLC no MLC doesn't really mean anything to me anymore. Foo issues hormones childhood trauma whatever. I really don't care much what his problems are. He'd be the same to someone else he was to me.
Didn't matter what I did. If I was quiet "What was the matter? And if I opened my mouth that wasn't the thing to say.I'm not bitter just more upset with myself that I didn't leave sooner. There are real reasons women do not leave an abusive relationship. I'm pretty textbook so not too unusual. I've forgiven myself and have worked hard to stay away from toxic relationships.
So my mirror work has been exploring me and why I tolerated it for so long. I have a lot of answers to those questions now.Reading about abused women and the mind set of all of that. I didn't ever feel like my self esteem suffered much during the relationship. Due to FOO issues I thought that's what a normal relationship was.
My self awareness is better ( now that three years have passed) and the trauma and triggers seem to be healing. All of that was due to an incident where he could have easily killed me if he had shoved me just a bit harder when I was leaving him. I didn't realize my life would be in danger doing that.
I'm grateful for every single day and it used to be a lot more than it's been lately. But for the longest time I'd look to the sky as I drove home from work at night and say out loud.
Thank God I am not going home to him.
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Finally having gathered a few thoughts, I'll try to express them here...
What message did I perceive? That you believe in marriage and would like to stop divorce, and that maybe if others understood MLC from your perspective, they would not take the world view about what is happening to their spouse and jump to the conclusion of ending their marriages before letting this dis-ease run its course.
This was said earlier, and is what I perceive as well. That the divorce rate could be brought down if more people took a stand.
So that goes to say that I do believe that MLC is something that has to run its course; I have seen in my own experience that it will do so.
My views are also influenced by my own life -- I went through a horrible stretch early on, when it wouldn't even be considered any kind of life crisis, although it was in response to my own family's situation. I ran away, behaved very badly, did things I'm not proud of, hurt people left, right and centre. Moved totally away from my own values and tried to adjust those values to reflect my behaviour.
And I came out of that, realised that I COULD do so, and set about making amends. Now that is a lot easier at 24 than at 54, because you just haven't had enough time to cause as much destruction.
So I do know that while someone is in a crisis they just won't listen, and I also know that the behaviour of others during the crisis does have an influence, even if it doesn't show at the time. I know the courage it takes to admit a mistake and try to make amends for it.
Before HS I read Conway and anything else that I could get my hands on; I found another forum early on which did describe the crisis well, but wasn't really open to the idea of standing; on that one, some marriages did reconcile, indeed there was a whole separate reconciliation board, but it didn't recognise the idea of cycling or the various types of MLCer; in that sense the continuum from clinger to vanisher is much more useful. And it did have a kick-em-to-the-curb mentality, after saying that you could wait a little bit (a few months or perhaps a year or two....).
I mentioned HS on that forum and was jumped upon for even mentioning the idea of standing, that it was all false hope and a crock.
So the articles here were a lifesaver; I turned to them often for comfort when my world was spinning -- at first for the hope that he would come out quickly, then just to calm myself down. And they made me realise that I had to work on myself more than on trying to convince my H of anything.
The articles have changed somewhat since the beginning; many I find well-articulated and practical; some, however, such as the ones on liminality, depression, and so on are quite metaphorical, with verse rather than straightforward practical descriptions. I find those a bit harder, especially if I'm trying to use those to describe to someone else in real life what this all means.
I recognise the limitations of short articles; there is so much to say and it cannot possibly be squeezed into just a few words.
I do believe that MLC is a process, as I said earlier I do think that the timeline is very conservative, unfortunately, but I agree that giving a longer one would scare newbies to death.
Where I'm not quite sure about things is where the process diverges from what RCR knows best -- the clinging boomerang. The clinger may well be the "typical" MLCer, the one "most likely" to return, so it is perhaps easiest to look at the process through those lenses.
I don't know if it is possible to write more about those that aren't so clingy....
I think the articles do a pretty good job of showing what the stages of MLC might be; I do remember being given the "slinky" analogy, that progress appears so slow because they go all the way around the circle only to be about one millimetre ahead. I'm not sure if that is still in the articles, it could be something I remember from earlier.
There was also a list that compared actions of acceptance and denial that I still have printed out, but that is no longer in the articles.
Where it does get difficult is of course when it goes on for so long; RCR herself doesn't have this experience, and there are only a few of us who do who still post. I'll admit that one reason I'm still here is perhaps as research fodder.
And because I still find that I have to balance on the tightrope. And because I am the one with a difficult FOO, and I made a decision many years ago, before MLC, that the rot would stop here if I could in any way do anything about it. So my actions are motivated by my desire to do everything I can to NOT pass on the rot to my own children, and to speak openly about what is and isn't right, to encourage open discussion about feelings, and to put the whole first, recognising that that also means that each individual needs to feel valuable.
So having said that I had gathered my thoughts, I don't know if that is very clear; I definitely believe that MLC is something distinct from an "ordinary" walk-away spouse; where it gets less clear is later on; RCR says that the person who comes out may well be very different from the one that went in; what is hard to determine is what "out" means; it would seem to indicate some kind of self-awareness, which I have seen and then seen disappear again.
I remember RCR saying that at some point it became a lifestyle choice; that is what is also unclear -- but perhaps more unclear in my own case because I have seen the despair even while my H professes he has "accepted" his now-not-so-new life.
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I thought that it might be a good idea to add another story here with a not so happy ending.
I believe in MLC.
My mother is bipolar and has the disease on a scale of 1-10 about a 50.
That being said it is sometimes under control if she stays on her meds.
She certainly had a MLC which occurred much later in life.
One thing that mid life does is magnify your prior problems and make them much worse.
My mother was no exception to this, she finally got a divorce from my father, got a huge settlement of cash and proceeded to replay activities with a vengeance.
I remember her taking a trip to Vienna which blew through $10,000 which at the time was a lot of money.
So after about 5 years she had spent her entire settlement and had nothing left she somewhat crashed and ended up in jail using the rest of her money on lawyers to get herself out, the judge ordered her back on meds, and she was on probation that required her to take her meds.
She is now an old woman who I must think is out of her crisis, my father has passed away and she still blames him for all of her problems.
There has never been any remorse or reflection and I doubt that there ever will be.
It has been over 25 years from her divorce.
In retrospect I can see the highs and lows of her crisis but my point is because of her underlying disease, there was never an emergence from that.
My .02 for this Sunday morning.
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Interesting story, OP.
I absolutely agree that midlife magnifies your problems and makes them much worse; add to that a few powerful triggers and something/someone which/who promises an escape from it all and you do have, as you said earlier, the perfect storm.
A lack of coping skills is the issue here as well; in your mother's case the underlying disease was that, in many MLCers they just never learned that part somewhere along the line, possibly due to being indulged when they should have been made to take responsibility. (and I don't mean that someone was necessarily deliberately spoiling them, it may well have been done thinking that it was showing love....)
It is so easy to say that the LBS is the cause of all the problems, it stops any reflection.
(and $10K would still seem like a lot of money today....)
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trusting "Simply put, I believe MLC is a severe crisis of identity. I believe it is rooted in childhood and FOO issues, but there must be something more to it than that to cause some people with childhood wounding to be fine at midlife and others to go crazy and turn their worlds upside down. I agree that 3-7 years seems conservative at this point from what I have observed.
I do not believe we caused their crisis or contributed to it. I think it would have happened no matter who they were
I also think it has a lot to do with hormones.married to. Therefore, I don't think we can change their crisis. It is their journey to navigate, and they choose to do so without us. We have our own journeys to travel. If it were a marriage issue, so many of them would not walk away from parenting, cut ties to other people, and destroy finances.
I do think that the best thing we can do is step out of the way, live our lives the best we can for ourselves and our kids (if we have them), and choose joy. Let them have their crises. They are going to whether we want them to or not."
I couldn't have said it better, trusting, and I believe the same. (a severe crisis of identity) and it also has a lot to do with hormones, or lack of.
I understood this more when I saw my H actually experiencing hot flashes. This is not something that happens in their mind only, it's physical. Anyone who has experienced hot flashes knows this.
RCR's articles are spot on. :)
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I'm definitely in the "severe crisis of identity" camp.
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I also consider MLC to fall under the umbrella of a personality crisis triggered by a person's inability to address FOO issues. I don't discount a chemical/hormonal imbalance; however, my experience is that FOO issues play a crucial role.
Why? STBX told me that "this" was about his father, who died when STBX was 13. He also mentioned a couple of times that he lived with his father's ghost...which points directly to his mother. STBX talked a lot in the months surrounding BD about emotional intelligence. I see now he was trying to tell me something. It made no sense at the time.
So of course neither me nor the marriage caused the crisis. However, I can see how both contributed. Our relationship became co-dependent, where I was responsible for his happiness. I met his needs for many years, and he mine. What I did not understand was how I became (or perhaps always was) a mother figure to him. He sought comfort from me. A couple of months before BD, I went to a terrible depression after being laid off and having to reapply for my job. He was already depressed, he couldn't tolerate my depression, and so he looked elsewhere for someone to become his mother figure. I certainly don't blame my depression for his crisis, but I can also see the causal chain. Had I not gone through what at that time, we might still be together--and him still miserable.
Might. Because honestly, does any of us know whether or not our spouse would have gone into crisis had they been with someone else? We can think we know the answer, but until we find a way to reach that alternate universe, we do not know.
I think part of the difficult we have with the camps that say, yes, I contributed but didn't know it and no, I have no responsibility in any of it, has more to do with the type of relationship we had with our spouse. Air has spoken about twisting herself into a pretzel to make OB happy. To me that resonates of co-dependency. And I think that may be the key: those of us who were in a co-dependent relationship have a different experience than those who were not. Neither is right or wrong; this is how we have experienced our lives.
Standing is a crucial concept in a throw-away society. I see it as a crucial step in the development/healing process. Initially we Stand. Until we really learn about MLC, we think we are dealing with garden-variety affairs and can outlast them. We don't believe our spouse is going to take 2 years. ::) Most of us here are separated, and we learn about ourselves. Some continue to stand for the marriage. That's right for them. Some don't have a clue what they want and Stand for themselves. Both contribute to the healing. And then some of us will, for whatever reason, end the Stand. For me it was a difficult decision: I waffled for about a year. Even though I had intellectually moved on, part of my heart needed time to catch up before I was truly ready for divorce.
I believe things happen for a reason. STBX and I were supposed to be together for as long as we were. We are no longer supposed to be together. Had we remained, both of us would have continued on through out lives as broken people. I do not know of STBX will ever become whole. I do know that while I still have work to do, I'm much closer to wholeness than I was before.
And that, I think, is the point of the philosophy of HS, ultimately. Reconciliation or not, the mirror work is crucial for us. We know those MLCers who try to come back do so very broken and the LBS needs to have a kind of strength unlike anything we've experienced in the past. So even if the mission statement is about saving marriages, which is fine, my view is that it is also about saving the LBS, reconciliation or not.
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I believe my W is having a severe identity crisis. I also believe that this crisis was brought on by her FOO issues. Her psychiatrist at BD alluded to a chemical imbalance but he only focused on OM. She is dissatisfied with work, home and her life in general. Now I see the warning signs a year prior to BD as she had a difficult time with our children aging. She is angry and depressed. Those are the 2 commonalities of her mlc. She is angry at the world, God, her Dr, medication, her dad, and , of course, ME. I am #1 on the list.
The articles have been very helpful but it takes awhile to truly appreciate your work RCR. In the beginning, I felt that I understood everything that you were trying to convey but time and life experiences with my W brought everything into clarity. I find myself rereading the articles many times because I always find something new as the mlc advances. What I thought I understood at 6 months, is more clearer now at 14 months and probably will be further understood at 20 months. Its a constant learning process.
I do trust the process mainly because she is pretty textbook and follows the mlc script from everything that I have read. I could have probably done a better job in year one but I think we all are going to stumble our way through this initially until we figure ourselves out.
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I couldn't agree more, Watcher.
It takes time and rereading RCR's articles for them to sink in.
I suppose it's the shock at first. You just can't get your head around that they will take years to come out of this. Just kill me now! THAT is not what I wanted to hear!
I wanted to hear he will come out of his crisis in 2 years and be my loving H again.
I did NOT think time was my friend.
I did not believe he wanted to find someone else. He wouldn't do that. He couldn't possibly be looking.
I didn't think "I" needed to do mirror work. I was perfectly fine with who I was.
Well then hard reality sets in after awhile and you understand. ::)
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I agree with Watcher that as time goes on I still find myself reading the articles and I find new things and gain more clarity as my H's MLC progresses. I am at the 5 year mark post BD, but in retrospect I believe my H was spiraling down for some years before BD.
When I found HS I was 20 months post BD and had been dim with my H for the last 12 months of that 20 month period. It was something I did instinctively for my own sanity and didn't even know that it was termed as going 'dim' at the time. In fact I hadn't even realised at this point that my H was in fact having a MLC, but as soon as I found HS and read the articles the penny dropped immediately. I knew this was my H. When I read in the articles that NC wasn't beneficial if you hoped to one day reconcile I answered the phone the next time my H called and things changed over night. I still believe in my case that that 12 month dim period was beneficial but that I found HS and adapted to paving the way just at the right time in my H's crisis.
I tend to think MLC is a perfect storm of chemical/hormonal imbalance, FOO issues, stress/coping issues (addictions), depression, and a crisis of identity.
There is a definite difference in my H now to 5 years ago. At first he was like a walking shell of himself and was completely zoned out. There didn't seem to be much going on inside his head at all at that time or for quite some time. He seemed completely numb which suggests to me the chemical/hormonal imbalance.
He was under a lot of stress at BD with a new job of 6 months in which he had a lot more responsibility and working hours and he was coming to the end of 3 years of study for a diploma. He also had a near miss fatal work accident where he was almost crushed by falling steel only weeks before BD. He had previous issues with alcohol and had had counseling for it but had started to drink heavily again. I have witnessed depression throughout the crisis. For the most part he follows the MLC script though I can't say I have witnessed a 180 like others have, more a loss of his moral compass and a compulsion towards self-sabotage. I have seen very little monster and he has never blamed me for his actions. I did get the script 'he wasn't wanted or loved at home' and 'we had grown apart'.
I have found the paving the way and the mirror work articles very beneficial. Grace, agape and the unconditionals sit easily with who I am anyway so they have been easy to adopt in a more mindful way. I have learned much about myself through mirror work. I see now that I was a fixer, that I enabled my H and that I didn't set boundaries. A big thing I have learned is the art of responding instead of reacting. I still struggle at times with detachment because he is a boomerang and there have been numerous touch and goes.
As time has gone on and because my H appears to follow the script I have found it easier to trust in the process. He is at the stage where he is aware of the destruction he has caused and aware of his own pain, but as yet has had no true self-awareness except to admit that he now sees he was running away from himself and that he took all his problems with him. As time has gone on I now believe that the 2-7 year time frame is a conservative one, and that in many cases MLC can last much longer.
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I wanted to wait before posting again in order to see what you all had to say without influencing you with any comments from me. Thank you so much! It feels good because it seems to me that in general you have a great grasp of the articles and my vision. I apologize if I do not include your comments directly--as there were so many that I loved and just too many to include here.
Anjae said she believes that the roots are biochemical and then I think Ready2Transform made a good point about this being a chicken or egg sort of thing--are the roots biochemical or social/FOO? Yes, there are biochemical commonalities, but there are also FOO or social commonalities. he question then becomes what about those who don't have an MLC? Which commonalities do they share and what are the odds of such a person having an MLC? Of course some who check off either the social or biochemical checkboxes will not have an MLC, but are there greater odds for the biochemical checkboxes or the social/nurture/FOO checkboxes? I don't know if there is actual data comparing these or if studies have even been done--serious studies, so we're just guessing here and my vote goes toward more social roots if one even has a greater influence than the other. BUT I am firmly with the idea that it is not one or the other, but a perfect storm of many things--biochemical, social... Here are some great gems from your posts on this:
Mermaid
Biochemistry is always intertwined with the person in social context. There is no separation.
and
Neuroscience cannot explain the interplay of the developing self in the social world.
Onward
there are both physiological and psychological influences on MLC, and that chemical and FOO issues can live in harmony
Or maybe Disharmony as the case may be! ;)
Ready2Transform
I think biochemistry does play a role (chicken or the egg as it may be), but I think having a grasp of the big picture from every angle is important, including commonalities of FOO, life patterns, psychology, etc.
MyBrainIsBroken
childhood trauma or severe longterm childhood stress coupled with a lack of secure attachment and other related FOO issues could and probably would lead to the situation that I knew as MLC.
Trusting
I believe it is rooted in childhood and FOO issues, but there must be something more to it
OSB
at BD, everything I observed about my H screamed mental health issue in bold caps. So perhaps it's confirmation bias, but I tend to accept the neuropsychological etiology of MLC. But that doesn't negate accepting the philosophical etiology (we are after all a bag o' biochemistry that thinks, and that uses metaphor to understand our own thinking organ), the philosophical explanation made it possible for me to comprehend the fracture with identity/reality that is MLC.
Medusa
I also consider MLC to fall under the umbrella of a personality crisis triggered by a person's inability to address FOO issues. I don't discount a chemical/hormonal imbalance; however, my experience is that FOO issues play a crucial role.
The Lighthouse
I tend to think MLC is a perfect storm of chemical/hormonal imbalance, FOO issues, stress/coping issues (addictions), depression, and a crisis of identity.
Of course this is not meant to be the focus of my articles. This line of thinking, while interesting academically and perhaps helpful for us to Accept the Process, is focusing on MLC and not on us--it's not Mirror Work! So it was so exciting (and a relief) that several of you mentioned how the Mirror Work articles were crucial or important--a few noting that this was not something you realized or accepted until later as I have also predicted will be common.
Here is what I consider my official definition of MLC:A normal life event—midlife transition—that has escalated to crisis levels of emotional and mental turmoil. Denial and attempts to avoid the transition yield crisis which manifests through avoidance, regression and depression and in the context of a marriage often includes infidelity and separation. MLCers react overtly with outward destruction; whether intentional or not, an MLCer hurts other people in significant ways.
Notice that does not talk about causes or why....nothing about FOO or Biology. The definition is meant to be about how whatever causes manifest--what we see and experience in the way of symptoms/actions. The origins are for bigger picture long explanations that hopefully may aid our understanding and thereby our empathy as well as Acceptance which can help us to move forward from what might (understandably) be a stuck place in the beginning.
So if I believe that MLC is a combination of social and biological issues, why do I spend so much time on the social part. UM, laziness? No not really, but I think the task is just so daunting and thankfully Anjae is doing an awesome job on the biological part. My background is hard science, not Social Science and I think that for me to delve into that side of it I would go deeper than I have time for...a superficial review or understanding would not be sufficient for me and I might not consider my understanding credible at a superficial level and so I guess I avoid it more than anything. Sorry. A few years ago I wrote a blog article reviewing the LBS stress response after Bomb Drop (http://loveanyway.theherosspouse.com/self-focus/emergency-response/). It was a 5-part series and it took me while to research and write it--and even that article is rather superficial by scientific standards. For me it was an important article for you guys because I wanted to normalize your panic and the setbacks you felt in your confidence as well as give you a biochemical timeline for that portion of your recovery--so if a person is outside of the timeline, they may want to consider seeking additional help or guidance. But for me that also was not a direction that was taking me to where I like to focus in my own studies and to spend more time in that sort of direction (other than occasionally) would take me away from other directions.
Timeline
The 3 - 7 year MLC timeline...um yeah, that is not meant to say that MLC will be over in 7 years--as we have learned as this forum has been around longer and longer. That's also not to say that there are cases of a 3 year MLC and so it is valid to include that at the short end of the range. But I have changed the timeline to reflect our belief that MLC can go longer and yet I guess I'm vague because we just don't have an upper end yet, so I now say 3 to upwards of 7 years.
Re-Reading the Articles.
So many people have said this over the years--that they gain new understandings over the years as they re-read. This is so cool! I'm just the writer and it feels so great that I have created something that is so relevant for you and even more that the understandings can deepen as you grow. I must admit that I too have felt this. For some articles I immerse myself in a topic for weeks and weeks and then move on, so later when I go back to read my own stuff I am learning too. Actually, a few years ago I was looking at a post on another board where the poster had just quoted a bunch of pieces of wisdom she liked. I was reading one of them and really liked it...and then I got to the end and it was by me! Even I am not DGU!
Unconditionals/Grace
Oh YAY! These are one of my favorite topics--especially Grace! The concept of Grace just gets me so excited. I think these are something that are important in general--so remove them from the MLC and/or Stander context. The Unconditionals are meant to be applied in all aspects of life.I find believe the articles on Paving the Way and the Unconditionals to be the ones least referenced, and increasingly least modelled or supported on the forum and on the board.
I would be lying if I said I disagree with you on this. :( These concepts and applications may be the most challenging not just in our society, but for people who have been hurt. I have a belief about how to approach communication where I use things like maybe-language rather than being concrete and I wrap my words in reassurances. Recently I was reading something and apparently there is a therapy based EXACTLY on this concept! I think it was in the coaching manual I am reading, but can;t be sure... I've been reading it at night after everyone goes to bed and I try to highlight the things I want to review...but sometimes a toddler or infant interrupts me before I can do that and now I have spent a few weeks away from that book as I've been (joyfully) dealing with our fruit trees as they need harvesting and so often I am spending that time at night looking up new recipes to handle all of the fruit. So the other day I got out the book and tried flipping through to find what I wanted and couldn't find it...and I really think it was in that book. I may next contact the author and ask about it, because I want more information and it was so exciting and validating to read about an official therapy type that I have already been following without even knowing it! Honestly I've often wondered if ideas on Maybe-Language see weak to people. I still believe in them, but I can see how people might misunderstand them and especially apply them incorrectly or with a weak position if they misunderstand.
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What is maybe-language?
...but there are also FOO or social commonalities.
There are, but they are much more varied. Stress and depression are more precise commonalities and more present in most MLCer. The FOO and social factors are too different. While it is easy to ascertain that stress and depression, that are specific things are factors common to most MLCers, the FOO and social issues vary so much that it is not possible to say what type is more conductive to MLC.
I am not saying those may not play a part. The social one certainly does since stress does not turn up in a vacuum. And yet, it can be considered and endogenous factor. Stress is a result of life events (as a general rule, and when we are referring to long lasting stress - not the normal short term rise in stress humans have in danger situations that is designated to protect us, in such cases stress is a defend mechanics that can safe our life. This
type of natural response stress is usually called physical stress. - The long lasting stress that affects mood, personality, behaviour, etc is usually called psychological stress and is the most dangerous one. We are not naturally equipped to deal with it. We are not equipped to deal with prolonged stress.
When under long, prolonged stress, our brain and body start to behave in very strange ways, that can even make us seriously ill. The illness can be as diverse as diabetes, always being with a cold or flu, gastrointestinal diseases/disorders, burnout, depression, other mental/neurological issue, heart issues, high blood pressure, etc. Stress is very damaging. It is thought stress can be a contributing factor to cancer for some (many?). We already know a lot of the not good things stress does, but I think people still do not give as much importance as they should.
Depression can be a result of life events or not. It can be a result of some medical conditions, like thyroid problems, or partum, that do not depend of life conditions. Or it can be endogenous.
I don't know if there is actual data comparing these or if studies have even been done--serious studies
I don't think so. Pretty much no one takes MLC seriously. And certainly not seriously enough to
conduct the many types of tests necessary to have a clear knowledge. If even here in the board there are people MLC exists, or is a thing in itself, it is going to be very difficult to convince the outer world to take a serious interest in it.
The thing with the social roots is that, alone, they would not lead to a MLC. It requires that those roots get to a point where they impact the person to the point of stress and depression to become a problem, a crisis level problem. And when that happens, the problem becomes physiological/neurological. It seems to be more the way a person is capable of handle stress, and that is an endogenous issue, it pertains to how each individual is affected by stress. It has to do how the person's brain takes stress.
In fact, endogenous encompasses, among others, the person genetics, biology, physiology and life style. Exogenous include, biologic environment, physical environment (as in physics & chemistry), natural - climate, natural events, social & cultural environment, etc. Since life style is endogenous and social & cultural environment exogenous, it is a little difficult to determine which is which for a MLCer, or each MLCer.
No not really, but I think the task is just so daunting and thankfully Anjae is doing an awesome job on the biological part.
I am, but on the board, not on articles/blog posts level. Neurobiology/neuroscience/biology are Hard Sciences, not Social Sciences. If your background is Hard Science, it would not be difficult for you to get the basic. But I understand that it is may not be particularly funny to write about brain mechanisms. Maybe something simple on how stress affects brain, body, behaviour and the same for depression?
Maybe also a little on adrenaline and endogenous opiates (osb thinks the second ones are also one of the reasons why High Replayers can carry on for so long in Replay behaviour). Adrenaline is easy to explain, as well as the addiction to it. Same for the endogenous opiates. Essentially, both work like any drug, the person has to carry on with the behaviour in order not to get to withdrawal, as time goes by more and more activities (and probably longer) are necessary to obtain the same effect. Until one day nothing will work anymore because there is nowhere else to go, with the exception of overdosing. In the case of MLCers I think the overdose is rock bottom. No Replay behaviour works anymore., the MLCer hits the bottom.
The articles, or blog posts, could be written in a very simple way, no need to get into details of how exactly each of those things affects each particular part of the brain, and, in turn, the affected brain affects the body and behaviour.
Paving the Way and the Unconditionals do not come up so much, or come up less and less, because, as time goes by, many of us have moved on. We are new relationships or marriages, we are single but 5,7,10 years have gone by and Paving the Way for our still out there where the buses don't run MLCer is the last thing in our minds.
It is not possible for some of us, especially those with nasty, aggressive MLCers, to Pave the Way and be in the middle of legal battle with our MLCer. If we try to Pave the Way while fighting to get the best legal/financial deal we can, we lose focus and we may end up doing ourselves a disservice. We only have time to focus on us, not in Paving the Way.
Same for those of us with a MLCers that has been physically violent. The last thing in our mind is Paving the Way. Plus, what exactly is Paving the Way? Paving the Way for one of us is not Paving the Way for another. And when the LBS is no longer interested in reconnection/reconciliation, Paving the Way has no more place. Unless it is for the children, for those who have them. Of for professional reasons, for the LBS who share a business with the MLCer.
As for the Unconditionals, after the anger phase the LBS goes through, I think they are not so difficult. But the LBS has to had reach a point that has allowed for them to be applied.
The thing with MLC is that it causes much more than hurt. It causes financial devastation. Hurt, in the emotional sense, is tough, the break of a marriage is not a good thing, financial devastation caused by a spouse is another level. One that, fortunately, not all LBS go through. Same for being physically abused by the MLCer. In those cases, it is much more than hurt.
I think you still have a very naif, romantic even, view of MLC. Maybe because your husband returned early, didn't cause much financial damages, was not especially nasty or ever violent, and no legalities were involved. The idea of trying to prevent divorces is beautiful, but it is neither practical, nor possible in many cases when MLC is present. Same for reconnected/reconciled marriages, I love the idea, but in most cases it will never happen, for a number of reasons.
As an example, how many in the mentor team remain married? How many are in new relationships/marriages? How many have interest in reconnecting/reconciling? I'm still legally married, but it is pretty much the same as being divorced. All it is missing is the signed divorce paper.
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I was nodding my head through your whole post Anjae. Eloquently put.
I have zero desire to ever have anything to do with the ex Mlcer or whatever he is again.
The vile nasty things he said. His behavior in general. His disrespect. His put downs. His taking himself so very seriously along with self importance. The control issues, the stalking, the harassment, the anger and the violence will always be the way I remember him.
And even after going to the emergency room due to his violence. I could not have him arrested.
This one will not change and will only get worse. I have read everything I can about abusive men and he fits all the characteristics.. And checks off quite a few for a narcissist.
The negatives surpassed any positives there may have been. Even if he had been some kind of caring, kind, loving, considerate man? After these last almost 6 years? Forget it.
And all I can see paving the way for is my young adult children.
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And all I can see paving the way for is my young adult children.
That is a good, and valid, reason to Paving the Way.
Regarding stress, from Jed Diamond:
"Stress underlies most of the psychological, social, and medical problems people face in contemporary society. If we can get a handle on stress, we can take care of most of the problems we face in our lives. By some estimates, up to 80 percent of all illnesses are stress induced. Stress-induced illnesses include: heart disease, prostate and breast cancer, depression, diabetes, arthritis, and obesity. By shifting from being at the mercy of your stress to being in control of your stress you can affect a dramatic increase in energy, and as a result you will be less likely to get sick." http://menalive.com/stress/
He has the same idea that I do (that is also shared by Robert Sapolsky, his book Why Zebras Don't Get Ulcers is a good explanation of how stress mess us up in every conceivable way), that stress is the cause of many problems of all sorts. I can say from experience that the reason I handled BD and the following times so bad was because I was super stressed.
That being super stressed also caused several types of medical problems, like infections, anxiety, etc. And it impaired my though, capacity of making good decisions, etc.
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Interesting summary, and very thought provoking. I could envision Paving the Way and the Unconditionals as constituting an effort to not let my partner's MLC turn me into something other than myself. Other approaches advocated on other MLC websites often seemed to involve giving reign to anger and bitterness; that really turned me off. But here was a shiny new way to conduct myself (safely, while distancing) without turning myself into a simulacrum of my ornery, bitter MLCer. Didn't mean I was setting lures for my H to return (lighthouses aren't fishing lines), I actually had no notion that he would, and of course it kind of wasn't about that. But by paving the way as calmly as I could, I could preserve my splintering sense of self, and perhaps my (overly kind?) mental image of myself as not a screaming crazy person. Like saying "Do whatever nonsense you like, H, you can only make me step back from you; you can't make me hate".
But Paving the Way is very emotionally tiring; and perhaps it's not healthy to avoid or sublimate the anger for too long. Also this is only feasible in the context of personal safety, with a non-vanisher. Some on this board didn't/don't have the option.
Anjae, my H had about 5 years of accelerating adrenaline-junkie-hood and emotional dissociation leading up to his MLC - he was so clearly chasing the dragon for his endorphin fix, and BD came literally 3 days after he catastrophically failed to 'fix' himself (drove his body too hard, became ill on an adrenaline trip, limped home sans fix, depressed emotional basket-case for 3 days followed by abrupt stony-faced, shark-eyed transformation). So this relationship between endorphins, adrenalin and oxytocin was something I started reading a lot about....
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I could envision Paving the Way and the Unconditionals as constituting an effort to not let my partner's MLC turn me into something other than myself.
I really love your vision of Paving the Way.
Didn't mean I was setting lures for my H to return (lighthouses aren't fishing lines), I actually had no notion that he would, and of course it kind of wasn't about that.
You are right, lighthouses aren't fishing lines. Lighthouses do not go out of their way to try to bring ships to safety. They are there, solid and strong, shinning their light in the dark to point the path, but they do not move out of their way. And, in foggy nights the ships may not be able to see the lighthouse light. Same with MLCers, when in the fog, they do not see the LBS beaming.
Anjae, my H had about 5 years of accelerating adrenaline-junkie-hood and emotional dissociation leading up to his MLC - he was so clearly chasing the dragon for his endorphin fix, and BD came literally 3 days after he catastrophically failed to 'fix' himself (drove his body too hard, became ill on an adrenaline trip, limped home sans fix, depressed emotional basket-case for 3 days followed by abrupt stony-faced, shark-eyed transformation). So this relationship between endorphins, adrenalin and oxytocin was something I started reading a lot about....
That is very interesting, osb. I think Mr J is on a new low and in need of more fix. He was calming down, cutting on djing. He had even parted with his dj mates that go djing around the world because he was tired and could not keep up. He had also left the big clubs and festivals and went back to the small indie clubs and bars where he had started. But he is back djing around Europe in big places and festivals. Maybe it is a last attempt of Replay behaviour. Maybe nearly two years of not having the fix of the big places and flying around from country to country become too much and he was feeling down and in need of a rush. Who knows. He never seems to go down for good. Bottom always seems to be around the corner, but he always finds something to keep fighting it.
Mermaid raised an important point on the Is MLC real? -Background to MLC thread - http://mlcforum.theherosspouse.com/index.php?topic=191.msg524852#msg524852 that when psychologists work with someone to help them break addiction they remove stimuli, including social ones. If the MLCer remains within the same social context, even if they want to break their addiction to whatever they are addicted to, it may be very difficult.
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This thread is really interesting and I agree with much that has already been said regarding the unconditionals and paving the way. Early on, I worked a lot with that and I still think much of that work has benefitted not just me (as I have learnt to respond rather than react) even though I'm no longer standing. It does not make sense for me to pave the way back to our marriage for someone who has formed a new family. Actually, doing so, to me would not be compatible with agape (or in my preferred vocabulary, loving-kindness). Imagine, if it would be "successful" - that would only cause more pain to more people. There is no love in that. I have worked hard (and still is sometimes) on not wanting OW or XH to "suffer", not wishing them to "feel the pain" that they caused me and S. In this sense, I have paved the way for S and for XH to be as good a father as he can despite what has happened. If I had given in to the anger, or become stuck with it, then I believe this would have been much harder. Early on I worked a lot on forgiveness, but I was not yet ready for it so I let it go for a while - now I feel that I might have reached it. It doesn't make what he did wrong, but there is no benefit (or, in buddhist vocabulary, it would not be skillful) to linger to his past actions; it would just keep me in pain and possibly harm also others.
Gx