Midlife Crisis: Support for Left Behind Spouses
Archives => Archived Topics => Topic started by: Absolutely Fabulous on September 01, 2016, 08:13:28 AM
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Just wanted to know who went No contact early, and who didn't. What are your results so far?
I was monstered at until I went NC. I did this early, and I noticed that the Ex is now starting to show signs that he's at least having some clarity. It's only been about 2 years since BD and almost a year since we divorced.
He admitted to the kids that he's responsible for the divorce, regrets the divorce, and apologized to them for what has happened. He also admitted that he hasn't been there for them.
I've been really consistent with NC, and it was even a part of our divorce decree.
My opinion: go NC fast. I feel like this would have been prolonged had I'd paved the way.
What have been your experiences?
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I never really did NC.
Things are pretty good now.
I have no idea if going NC would have mattered or not.
I can definitely see it's good for some but in my case there really was no reason for it.
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I had a Clinging Boomerang and never went NC. I did go dim for awhile for my own sanity. We are reconciled, BD was in 2010. I think it's a tool needed for the LBS's sake, in many cases, especially when the MLCer is verbally abusive.
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M3G, I agree with you 100 percent. I feel it should be number one recommendation on this site. In my experience more contact = more damage if monster is at all present.
I think a person in MLC cannot tell fantasy from reality. No contact is an immediate consequence of behavior and also a powerful reality check.
I didn't do no contact until eight months in. Bomb drop was one year ago.
My husband still is not taking responsibility for this. Until he can (and it may be never): No contact.
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They say you should go NC for you, not as a form of punishment.
If they are Monstering at you or being abusive in any way, NC is a nice boundary for your mental health.
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I certainly don't think no contact should be a blanket recommendation on the site. It has to be what makes sense for each person. I have never gone no contact - I go dim sometimes. I have no intention of ever going NC - we have children together and part of our decisions to coparent mean we have quite a bit of contact. NC has to be about the LBS not as a consequence for MLC behavior. I don't think there is any research that suggests one way or the other wakes them up sooner. I learned ways to stop monster by simply not reacting or walking away. The decision for contact vs. not is a personal one based on specifics and nuances of individual situations.
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I agree Really.
I'm not a fan of and rarely suggest someone should go NC. It's got to be a pretty abusive relationship and it is wearing the person out.
Co-parenting would be almost impossible to do with no contact at all.
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I certainly don't think no contact should be a blanket recommendation on the site. It has to be what makes sense for each person. I have never gone no contact - I go dim sometimes. I have no intention of ever going NC - we have children together and part of our decisions to coparent mean we have quite a bit of contact. NC has to be about the LBS not as a consequence for MLC behavior. I don't think there is any research that suggests one way or the other wakes them up sooner. I learned ways to stop monster by simply not reacting or walking away. The decision for contact vs. not is a personal one based on specifics and nuances of individual situations.
Good points, it depends on the sitch. I have 2 minor children at home as well, and one adult child living on her own. I still went NC. I'm only DD when it's necessary. Now that I don't react, I've seen some changes. In my case, paving the way was detrimental. Thank God for those on the site that supported me in my decision to go NC. I had peace the minute I made that shift.
For me it wasn't about punishment, it was about stopping the abuse. I had to make a choice: continue taking it, and having it affect my younger 2 girls, or take a chance and see what happens. I chose taking a chance. It seems to have made a difference. I think it would've definitely prolonged what I, and my kids were going through.
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M3G, I agree with you. I actually think a harder line helps in many cases. I'm not saying an angry line. But very firm boundaries. From what I have read in the articles, no contact is recommended as a consequence of the affair.
My husband had an open fantasy that we would be good friends. At first I thought that if I could show him I was friendly he would of course wake up and realize what was he thinking. It didn't work that way. In his mind I think his fantasy was working out.
However, every case is different and I think that some MLCers (like RT's husband) are quite kind and involved.
I might change my position later, but your discussion topic caught my eye because it is something I have thought a lot about lately.
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If I had it to do over again, I would have gone NC and divorced right away. But it is what it is (to quote all of them!). Mine was a clinger for a little over a year after BD. When he filed the D, I know he expected me to contact and soothe - he had people reaching out to me almost immediately to test the waters, and he never changed his mailing address (the mail had been his excuse for contact for a long time). But I decided that it didn't make sense to continue playing this game. I wanted to save my marriage. If we were getting divorced, that didn't happen. So no reason to try to have a relationship with this person. We talked at our hearing 9 months later, he made sure he could still come back at that point, and it was over two more years before we spoke again. He used various joint ties during that time to monster and control me. But I reached out to him last year because he stopped talking to his attorneys. Since then, we've had semi-regular contact, mostly initiated by him. I am in a much better place to deal with it. Leaving him to it showed him what life without me is like, and allowed the OW to completely overtake his life. If he's happy with that, then we're both happy. If he's not, then at least I am. ;D
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I went NC as soon as I read about it, about 6 months after BD. Except it was a 'Not to contact me' boundary because my H is a clinging wallower (new category I suppose). It is him that constantly contacts me and I had to put a stop it it at times for me to have space and heal.
He is now (6 months later and a year after BD) is much more aware and really respects the boundary when I place it.
It depends on the sitch yet for me, I has been a gift!
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If I had it to do over again, I would have gone NC and divorced right away.
So would I, but for myself. I doubt it would have had any effect in Mr J's crisis. And it had, it would be the one it had when I started to cut contact more and more. He went deep and deeper into crisis and drinking.
No Contact is not going to bring a MLCer out of MLC. Let alone a clinger like Mr J was. RCR does not advice No Contact. If one has any interest in reconciling, No Contact is not going to be of help.
Of course some of us need to protec our selves and our mental sanity, but No Contact is not of use for every LBS.
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I really HATE to say this, but I agree.
I wish I had divorced right away, too. Instead I dragged it which only cost me more money for attorney fees....still ended up divorced.
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I'm still legally married. Crazy, I know. But it has cost too much money and it has also made me not to be allowed to benefit from the by then divorce law that was very generous in case of adultery. So, it has cost me twice, in legallities and in not receiving money.
But divorcing the MLCer, especially for financial protection, and No Contact are different things. One can divorce the MLCer and remain in contact. One can still be legally married to the MLCer and no contact or No Contact.
It may sound repeating myself, but neither divorcing the MLCer and/or No Contact is going to bring a MLCer out of their crisis faster. They will take as much as they need to. The big difference if for us. For our finances, our mental sanity, or well being. It makes zero to little difference to the MLCer crisis.
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Anjae, though, do you think that for some, no contact is a dose of reality/boundary that, while won't push them out of MLC, forces them to progress in a certain direction?
I can see in certain cases where the MLCer has made overtures, even if they are monstering, no contact has a different role. But in the type like my husband -- consisistent demands to divorce, lots of monster, fantasy thinking -- I feel like being forced to depend on OW for emotional support etc is more likely to help them "progress."
My feeling is that if the LBS can find a way to avoid being recipient of anger the MLCer will have to turn it on someone else or look to himself. I don't know if this will lead to faster recovery. I guess I'm just wondering aloud.
I have hit point where no contact is just for me. I feel I have a truly crazy MLCer whom I don't want to be around anymore. There is nothing in it for me. In my case it doesn't stop monster. I still get long monologues with accusations.
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I can't say for sure if a NC boundary will 'make them' come out faster yet I do know that boundary and others cut the monster behavior down significantly. They KNOW you aren't playing and they have gone far enough, so at least my H will and cut it out.
The problem for me is that his behavior is so bad quite often, I just have to remind myself and say, 'yeah, that's not true, I don't believe you' and place the boundary. And he cuts it out immediately.
Sometimes I don't remember and it goes on and on, until I do.
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There is no evidence that no contact makes them come out of "it" faster or progress any faster. No contact is not for the MLCer it is for the LBS to be able to regain some equilibrium. It's not a consequence or a punishment. I think the most common misconception is that no contact & boundaries are the same thing. I have lots of contact but I also have boundaries. No talking about OW, no monster type behavior. Those are hard boundaries for me and he respects those. I have read many many books and programs about MLC and nowhere is no contact advocated to speed up the process. Detachment is advocated which is an emotional state which can occur with contact.
I am not advocating contact though that is what I have chosen and in my personal opinion if reconciliation is your long term goal then opportunities to maintain connection are helpful. However, it is very dangerous to suggest that no contact moves something along faster, makes them see what they are missing, etc when there is no evidence of that. I would actually argue that having detached contact also makes them see what they are missing by them getting to see and interact with a newly in control LBS. They can bear witness to your growth.
Cases of abuse are the only times where I might advocate no contact right away but in those situations I may also not advocate standing since physical abuse is a personal hard boundary for me.
What I think is most important is that we not try to push one way or the other but instead learn from each other the different ways that people handle these situations and support each other's choices. Someone who has chosen no contact will never get a note from me saying that they should speak to their MLCer. Likewise people who want to remain in contact and pave the way - or not should not be made to feel that no contact will get them to their desired outcome sooner.
What we need to advocate is people regaining control over their emotions, focusing on their own growth, and being treated with respect. That can occur with or without contact with the MLCer.
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Well said, Really. :)
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@ReallyTrying,
NC is a boundary. When I used it at first it was because I was under the wrong assumption my was having an a and was used as a consequence, as stated in RCR articles.
I've also used it for me to have space to get control of my own emotions. Again, I got that from RCR articles.
It' helped me as well as my H I can only speak for myself he's really come a long way. who knows if it was my use of NC from time to time?
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RT, You say that there is no evidence that it helps the MLCer go through the tunnel faster. I don't see any evidence that going NC doesn't.
There is no evidence either way, because there are still people out there who don't even believe that Midlife Crisis exists at all. It's like people who argue that there is no God, because there is no proof that He exists. There's no real proof that He doesn't.
My point is, we don't know either way. This is not a discussion for people to get defensive. It's just to find out what people's results are. Period. Notice the title: No Contact Early On, What Were Your Results? There was a reason that I was asking this question. So that we could get some evidence. Call it research, or better yet a small poll if you will.
It's obvious to me that there are only 2 camps: the die hard "paving the way" ( who get all the support and kudos ) and the other of go NC quickly that get attacked for their stance. The thought that someone could embrace NC and see results in less time seems to rub some here the wrong way. Instead of telling other LBSers that's great, there seems to be a lot of resentment towards those who are seeing results with NC.
Let me say this, it's not about judging those who pave the way. Again, it's not about judging those who pave the way. It's about those who haven't being able to share their results. The fact that I've seen quicker results prompted me to ask the question to see if others have seen the same thing. It's not an indictment, it's just a fact that my situation is moving faster. It's also making me reconsider not standing. I had made the decision not to stand because of how things were. Now, I'm slowly but surely starting to reconsider standing because of this.
NC is a boundary, it's the ultimate one. I have a clinging boomerang. It's the only one that really makes an impact. I was told if he wants to go, let him go. Once I did, there was a change in ME. If it's not about the MLCer as you say, then what is the real issue here? It doesn't seem to be the NC, it looks like the results are working at least with the people that I have been in contact with. My EX has said that: he regrets the divorce, has taken full responsibility for what's happened, and apologized to the kids ( all 3 ). If that's not evidence, then I don't know what is.
I doubt seriously this would have happened had I not let him go, and stayed in NC. There are times when I have to be DD for the kids, but that's it. It wasn't for him, it wasn't to punish or hurt him, it was for me and my kids to move on and not stay stuck. We were stranded in this process, but refused to stay stuck. I would have been stuck had I not gone NC.
Again, it is about the situation, but this discussion is also for those of us who chose to go NC. Not to argue or defend ourselves from those who didn't. Not be rude, but that's the truth.
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My3, I sure didn't see anyone getting defensive. We were all talking about NC and what we believe it is meant for and when to use it.
Every one has opinions about it, which is good I think.
I personally didn't go NC but my H didn't have a ow so I saw no reason for it. Now had he found a gf, I would have had to go NC because I was married to a womanizer and promised myself I'd never do it again. So we would have been over.
But does NC work to change the MLCer, who knows? It's a boundary we need when they are abusive in language or physically.
I think it may make them think. It may make them miss you. But until they do the work they need to do on themselves I don't think it helps them get through the tunnel any faster. But that's just me.
I would never tell someone they shouldn't go NC if it helps them. Everyone has to make their own choices.
I just go by what RCR said, it should not be used as a punishment but if it's a good consequence for them then good. :)
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My3, I sure didn't see anyone getting defensive. We were all talking about NC and what we believe it is meant for and when to use it.
Every one has opinions about it, which is good I think.
I personally didn't go NC but my H didn't have a ow so I saw no reason for it. Now had he found a gf, I would have had to go NC because I was married to a womanizer and promised myself I'd never do it again. So we would have been over.
But does NC work to change the MLCer, who knows? It's a boundary we need when they are abusive in language or physically.
I think it may make them think. It may make them miss you. But until they do the work they need to do on themselves I don't think it helps them get through the tunnel any faster. But that's just me.
I would never tell someone they shouldn't go NC if it helps them. Everyone has to make their own choices.
I just go by what RCR said, it should not be used as a punishment but if it's a good consequence for them then good. :)
Thunder,
This discussion was not started to start a slug fest. I've been on the forum long enough to see where this is going. I just want this to be a discussion that stays on topic. The purpose of this discussion is to be able to tell about experiences with NC and what the results are. Not to talk about why it doesn't work, or whatever. Just results. Can we agree that that is the intent?
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My3girls - as you say no need to get defensive. If you re-read my post you will say that what I am responding to is a specific comment made by Velika that specifically asks about whether going No contact moves them along faster. She also stated that she thinks it should be the number 1 recommendation on this site.
My feeling is actually very respectful of each individual's choice:
These were my actual words:
"What I think is most important is that we not try to push one way or the other but instead learn from each other the different ways that people handle these situations and support each other's choices. Someone who has chosen no contact will never get a note from me saying that they should speak to their MLCer. Likewise people who want to remain in contact and pave the way - or not should not be made to feel that no contact will get them to their desired outcome sooner.
What we need to advocate is people regaining control over their emotions, focusing on their own growth, and being treated with respect. That can occur with or without contact with the MLCer."
Nowhere in that statement is there judgement. Instead there is advocacy of support for whichever situation you choose to manage the changes in your life. I have said repeatedly you have to choose what works for you. I am personally offended at the suggestion that I would resent your progress with no contact. I have never done anything on this site but support each person I have come in contact with and if you are seeing success with no contact then I am nothing but happy for you. Reconciliations give us all hope.
I will say again I have no problem with those who choose no contact as an opportunity to give yourself time and space to heal and grow and I am always happy to support each person's choice in how they navigate this difficult situation.
I am simply saying that we need to be careful about making sweeping, blanket statements about no contact as each situation is different and there is no evidence that it speeds the MLCer along.
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RT, I stated at the beginning that it was my opinion. That's why I stated it first. I don't want anyone to come away from this thinking that I believe that speak for others. Again, I stated my opinion because it's my opinion. I can only speak for myself. I cannot and will not speak for others. That was the point of this discussion.
I would like this to stay on an even keel if possible. No hard feelings, just telling what happened.
Fair enough?
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I actually do think that anyone who receives a bomb drop should go no contact for a period of time. This is to regain equilibrium and hopefully diffuse a tense situation.
I think this also might help separate out of this is true MLC or just confusion/affair etc.
I think what happens next should depend on the MLCer's response. If they make attempts to contact and are being respectful then I think contact is okay. But if they are baiting or abusive I think it should be maintained.
I am saying this as someone who knew nothing about MLC going in. I thought I could reason with my husband. This made it 100x worse.
Most people who receive a bomb drop take it as face value at first. They think their spouse is the same person telling them they have been unhappy for years. If this were better understood like menopause and PPD I think that giving the MLCer a lot of space -- especially when they are so volatile -- creates less resistance at the very least.
I find these discussions really interesting! I think it's good when people experiment and share results. Maybe we can "crack the code" wouldn't that be nice!
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It's a boundary we need when they are abusive in language or physically.
I went NC a months after BD and during that month I had 1 phone conversations with now XH. I think that one lasted 1,5 h he spoke the first 10 min then shut down completely and the conversation was about a emergency situation about our son, a TOTAL waist of time if you ask me. The second phone conversation I had with him was in october when we (son and I) tried to get him to start the process of dividing assets. He ran away from that meeting and the 3h conversation was like talking to someone who had an IQ of -30 (if that's possible) Both conversations was in 2014.
Now almost 2 year of NC. Total vanisher for me, don't know about the amount spent with kids, since we don't talk about him much.
Don't know "the result" of NC for him but…..for me a total blessing for my healing. I didn't do it for my "healing" at first, that has been a bi-product, I did it cause why waist time on someone abusing me. For me I didn't se him as a mentally stable person at that time. Lots of abuse during the last period before BD and the 2 conversations is also something I would label abusive.
The only thing he has done towards me, don't know if he wanted a reaction from me by doing so but he ordered a credit card and he started taking out rent from our house (we own 50/50) so that's illegal. I reported the first thing to the police and he must have gotten that report from them. I did not break my NC with him over these 2 things.
My opinion on NC or noNC, do what ever you feel is right for you! For me, staying friends with him during this time (when he is involved with an ow) or when he is abusive OR even if he is alone, not abusive but does not want to try to reconcile that will never be something I could do but that's me.
So my conclusion, I don't know if my NC or his vanishing act is pushing him through the tunnel faster or not. So I'm sorry no results yet from the Swedish jury! ;D
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I hope this discussion doesn't get hijacked. This could be a great if we stay on point. Everyone's input is welcome. I will keep bringing it back to the original question if we deviate too far one way or the other.
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Looking back, I wish I would have gone NC sooner.
I lived with my ex for 27 months after BD. I went dark/dim about 11 months post BD. When I moved out I remained dim - only responding to his contact never initiating. So long as he was civil and polite I figured what was the harm. Last December, he started to monster again via text. What I saw was the same old angry, selfish MLCer and I decided that I didn't want to be on the receiving end of monster anymore so I stopped responding. Even at this point, I did not go completely NC - I refused to be his punching bag but I kept the door open in case he wanted to show remorse (rofl). Once I stopped responding, his texts started getting really random. He was trying to bait me into talking to him. Eventually in April he sent an angry text because he didn't like that I was ignoring him so I went NC. Just last week, he sent me an email - since I didn't respond to his texts he tried another avenue. He even commented "did I receive his texts or not" and "am I ignoring him?". He actually sent the email from a new email account to make sure I got it in case I had blocked his old email addresses!
I went NC for my own sanity and healing. I made progress very quickly once I stopped him from having access to me. My ex is very manipulative and controlling - I can see much clearer now that I have some distance. I will remain NC until he shows a sincere attempt at acknowledging the damage that he has caused - this will likely happen when pigs fly or he!! freezes over.
NC is not right for everyone and NC doesn't mean forever. Only you can figure out what feels right for you and your healing/growth. I think that it is very hard for many of us to consider NC in the early days - I know it was for me but that had mothing to do with the MLCer - it was all about me!
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I mentioned on my own thread that I have gained some valuable insights by reading through some old threads from a member named FI_Foolish_Idiot.
He is an MLCer who who came here a few years back as he was trying to reconcile with his wife, whom he had divorced I think about 2 years earlier.
Link to the thread in case anyone wants to read it. I have found it very helpful and would recommend reading it because it does give some great insight into the MLCer's thinking. I stumbled across it earlier this week at exactly the time I needed it.
http://mlcforum.theherosspouse.com/index.php?topic=5542.msg354892#msg354892
In this thread, he was responding to some LBS questions about the contact he had with his wife and how he felt about it at the time. It's not specifically about NC, but I wanted to share it because I think it's relevant to this discussion.
At one point in the thread an LBS asks "How did you actually feel about your W when you were pushing her away? When you were feeling detached and were away from her. Did you think you disliked her, hated her? "
His response made me think about contact in general. I added the bold for emphasis.:
"Notice that in that (very short) list of items, everything is all about "I"... extremely egocentric. I'm not really focusing on her. If she's trying to interact with me, it's just an annoyance (like a buzzing fly). And I might say something that was: 1) Not Kind; 2) Sarcastic; 3) Downright Mean; and 4) Hurtful. Or I might not say anything. Notice also that there are no positives for the spouse. By the way, I generally tried not to say anything... less splatter later.
Because she was not interacting with me, I couldn't use her as my focus for why I was feeling the way I was. And that could be frustrating (to me). From her point of view, it was a d*mned if you do and d*mned if you don't scenario. She couldn't win no matter what she did. If she didn't interact with me, then she didn't care. If she did interact with me, she was going to get emotionally hurt.
I disliked her in that she was an interference or impediment to my mythical perfect life that might have been around the corner."
He basically says he's was not focused on his wife at all, period. But from his wife's point of view, if she was NC it seemed she didn't care, but if she had contact she risked getting hurt.
So contact or no contact affected her much more than him.
The sentences I bolded are I think what makes contact levels so important and also so difficult for the LBS to decide on what type of contact to have, and leaves me with the only conclusion being that we should have as little or as much contact as WE feel is right for us...because as far as the MLCer goes, it probably doesn't make much of a difference at all.
Every MLCer is different, but I think in my specific case the statement "If she's trying to interact with me, it's just an annoyance (like a buzzing fly)" is more than likely accurate for my H as well. I also think that the view of the LBS as an impediment is probably common, and if that's the case, it would seem that the more contact there is, the more the MLCer feels impeded.
Anyway, all just food for thought.
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Nassau,
Thank you for your observation. I have a friend that went through this. He was the one that told me to go NC because my Ex was so focused on his own pain that he couldn't see me or the kids. He told me he wasn't going to care.
The only thing he cared about was relieving his pain by projecting. So leave him alone, and more importantly make him leave me alone. He advocated NC asap. He told me the faster I detached the faster he would have to look at himself. And the faster the AD would get the brunt of his anger.
He also told me he'll miss you when you aren't around to save his a*s when things start to fall apart.
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Nassau,
Thank you for your observation. I have a friend that went through this. He was the one that told me to go NC because my Ex was so focused on his own pain that he couldn't see me or the kids. He told me he wasn't going to care.
The only thing he cared about was relieving his pain by projecting. So leave him alone, and more importantly make him leave me alone. He advocated NC asap. He told me the faster I detached the faster we would have to look at himself. And the faster the AD would get the brunt of his anger.
He also told me he'll miss you when you aren't around to sage his a*s when things start to fall apart.
I think that is true in many cases, that NC makes them see what they've given up.
I guess it depends on the situation. In my case, I don't think my H will get through this unless he starts to feel as unhappy and empty in his new life as he did in his old life. We sold our home right before his MLC started and have no children. In terms of what he's giving up (besides me), it's just his retirement fund.
My H left in July 2015 and lived with his mother for 10 months before moving away to be with OW. His mother is an enabler who is just completely enamored with her darling son. She cooked for him and instigated "heart to heart" talks and showered him with adoration.
OW is likely doing the same.
So contact or not, he's getting what he "needs" and hasn't lost an enormous amount.
I have minimal contact because I definitely think it helps in taking away the opportunity to project, blame and justify.
Once we are divorced, I will probably go completely NC. But I don't think it would make him look at himself, at least not for a long time, because he's got his whole new life to distract him.
That's just my situation based on what I see of my particular MLCer. I'm very interested to follow this discussion and see what others think.
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My friend who had the MLC is now struggling with his wife going through one. He understands her, so he is navigating it as best as he can. The pain is what drives them. They focus it on us.
He claims that NC forces them to leave you alone. That's the key: you being taken completely out of the picture. Detached or not, being out of the line of fire does hit home with them. You just have to wait to out.
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M3G, early on when my husband bomb dropped both my therapist and my neighbor who is a therapist pretty much told me: "Go no contact."
(I didn't listen. I couldn't — I was too traumatized and thought that I could convince my husband he was making a mistake.)
My therapist 100 percent supports no contact. He has also echoed that this is pure projection. His feeling is that it can't go on forever, that most projections crumble, but there is no way of knowing how long it will take.
He told me that I needed to remove myself from the negative projection, and that the sooner I did so the sooner my husband would have to deal with his own s---. (His words.)
I think that the trauma the LBS experiences unfortunately only confirms demented projections of an MLCer. A person in their right mind would see the pain as a consequence of their poor behavior. Instead the MLCer sees it as a confirmation of their projections.
I have written elsewhere, I read that women will often act out the unowned feelings/depression of a man in the relationship. MLC is like the major production of this.
I don't think that MLC is a fast process at all, but I do sometimes wonder if I had managed to go super, hyper no-contact from the get-go if things would have progressed differently. I think unfortunately LBS suffering makes the exuberant OW seem like a better option and more of an escape.
I don't know if the MLCer sees this in retrospect or not.
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I went NC very early on (though not entirely NC since we have a son who was 4 at the time). First of all it was recommended to me by a guy at Divorce Remedy, whom I spoke to perhaps 2 weeks after BD. He told me to quit being my H's mother, break co-dependency and leave him alone. It became an obsession with me to do things "right" so I followed this advice.
No matter what people say here, or how controversial it may be (I know at the time I stepped on some people's feet) I remain ABSOLUTELY convinced that going NC is one of the reasons my H got out of his MLC, left his "Amor", and came back home to me. Maybe it's just like some moms of autistic children who say that there's a window of opportunity right at the beginning to pull your child out of autism. However my H was fully cooked when he returned, no doubt about it.
It is now 4 years later and we are still together and very happy.
That's my result of going NC (or close to it) early on.
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Velika,
My therapist told me the same thing. It had nothing to do with me, and that I had to remove myself for my own sake. He was going to continue to be a jerk as long as I put up with it. I had so many people telling me to focus on me, and that was all the I could do. I went NC early, because he was really getting vindictive not just in words, but in actions too. When I reread my own threads from when I first started, I can't believe all the s*it I put up with.
None of this has anything to do with us. Whether they come back or not is not the issue. The real issue here is how much: self respect, dignity, and self confidence do you really want to give up? In the end, just like I wouldn't respect the Ex if he came back on his knees grovelling. How much do you think they have for us when we're first bomb dropped? Short answer: none.
I think that way too much time is spent focusing on the MLCer in the beginning. It's when you can step back and really take a more objective look, that's when you get a hold of yourself. Then you can deal with all the chaos and destruction in a more constructive way.
They are really in the Twilight zone when it comes down to it. They really don't care about the LBSer when they are in the tunnel. So, NC, DD, or Paving the way doesn't have any affect. It's about all about the MLCer. Once you stop focusing on them, that's when they either wake up, snap out, or leave for good. You don't know which way it's going to go. Whichever way it does, you have to be prepared to live without them for the rest of your life. That might not be the case, but at least you'll be prepared if it is. But, I believe that you have a better chance of them coming back if you go NC. No interference seems to be a beacon for them. Besides, you'd rather the AD/OP get to have to finish the journey with them. Lord knows they deserve it.
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Evas, you have one of the most instructive threads on this forum. Your comments are very insightful. I think in some ways there is a disempowering message (not intentional) that can permeate this forum. I think that many highly traumatized LBS need very assertive instructions that go counter-intuitive to what they would normally do.
M3G, yes I would actually advocate for every new LBS to go no contact at bomb drop and also to immediately get a separation agreement — straight away. These are two heavy doses of reality.
I have noticed a lot of success on threads where the LBS decided to move away. This to me is an example of how extreme no contact can be productive.
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I have noticed a lot of success on threads where the LBS decided to move away. This to me is an example of how extreme no contact can be productive.
Exactly. In my case the mere threat of moving far away was very productive (it was a reality that I was forced to contemplate because of financial circumstances). I also believe in doing most everything counter-intuitively. Or the opposite of what one usually does. It worked wonders with my clinger and it made me feel strong and more in control.
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I did not have the chance to go NC early on. She took off 3 weeks after BD without a word. She came back and I was thrown out with the help of PD for another 5 months. So I was too beaten up to even think about NC. It did help that she went NC with me.
She was so crazy Monster at the time that I don't believe NC would have made a difference. She wanted me gone. Period. Anyway necessary.
Now, I returned home at 8 months after BD but she was overt depressed for 90 days. Again she had NC with me. She emerged in June and was straight monster until I left at the end of July. I was gone 32 days. This time I went NC. There is no more divorce talk. Now she wants to keep the family intact and has apologized for certain things that she has done. It's too soon for me to determine if NC worked.
However, this woman hammered me for divorce for 13 months. I left, agreed divorce maybe a good option with her, went NC, and now she wants to save the family. Only time will tell.
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Thanks Watcher for giving us the male perspective.
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For folks who went NC who are sharing their insight here, I'm wondering also, did you communicate that you were going NC or did you just stop contact at a certain point?
I ask because I wonder if that makes any difference, if there's a clear boundary articulated to the MLCer or if the LBS just stops communicating.
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For folks who went NC who are sharing their insight here, I'm wondering also, did you communicate that you were going NC or did you just stop contact at a certain point?
I ask because I wonder if that makes any difference, if there's a clear boundary articulated to the MLCer or if the LBS just stops communicating.
I told mine point blank. I didn't mince words, and I made it very clear that I didn't want to hear from him unless it was: an emergency or absolutely necessary. I even went so far as to tell him that once all the divorce related things were finished that I never wanted to hear from him again. The kids are old enough to deal with him for things that they need from him.
Needlessly to say, most of those things still aren't completed. Even in divorce he is dragging his feet, and finding ways to continue contact. So in my case NC has only been on my end and not reciprocated. He's been nicer since this past weekend, but I'm holding my stance. He needs this to see that I'm not going to save him, or relieve his guilt.
I'm cordial, but I don't initiate. I've left him to the AD and his new life. It's crumbling, but I've made it clear that he can't continue to treat me badly and expect me to take it.
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My feeling is that if the LBS can find a way to avoid being recipient of anger the MLCer will have to turn it on someone else or look to himself. I don't know if this will lead to faster recovery. I guess I'm just wondering aloud.
I have no idea upon whom Mr J turned his face to face, or e-mail or text monster. He still had distance monster towards me through his court cases. But I doubt it has made him look at himself. Maybe he turned monster upon OW2, even if I don't think so. At least not for a long, long while. He has totally dependent on her for emotional support. And for any decision, including his divorce court cases.
Also, for some, early one, even with no contac or No Contact (they are different), the MLCer may feel desperate and seem to come close to the LBS. But it is not genuine. It is only out of fear. It will a totally uncooked MLCer trying to swim back to the LBS.
Of course No Contact cuts the monster behaviour. The MLCer cannot talk or see the LBS. Monster may still be there, but we don't see it. But some, like Mr J, use indirec monster (court, money cuts, etc).
In Mr J's case (and this may be true for other MLCers), he thinks I gave up on him and no longer care. That is what my lack of contact means to him. If I gave up on him and no longer care, he sees no reason to leave OW2 and the MLC lifestyle because they are all he has. That, of course, is what his MLCer mind thinks. He has himself and a lot to live for, but that is something he needs to find on his own.
Actually, My2Girls, pretty much everyone in the board who is reconnecting or reconciled never used No Contac. They may had no contact for a little while, but never went No Contact.
For folks who went NC who are sharing their insight here, I'm wondering also, did you communicate that you were going NC or did you just stop contact at a certain point?
I did not inform Mr J I was No Contact. I just stop at a certain point.
Moving far away is also not going to bring a MLCer out of their crisis. Evas, you were not No Contact, you were no contact. Like you said, you have a son, so there was some contact.
No Contact means really No Contact at all. Nothing. Zero. Not a work. Like RCR says, when your MLCer calls, you do not pick up. No Contact is absolute Radio Silence. Even I was never No Contact. I just don't contact. http://www.midlifecrisismarriageadvocate.com/standing-actions_contact-and-communication_contact-levels_no-contact.html I can't post the No Contact versus no contact blog post because the board still has problems and I am not being able to reach the blog posts.
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I ask my H outright not to contact me, although it doesn't last, or it's counter intuitive as evas explained. We are now reconnecting and working on things.
Again as far as him coming out of crisis faster, that I just don't know yet do know he wants to end it badly.
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I think here we are saying "no contact" as in no initiating contact or spending time together unless absolutely necessary.
My feeling is that when people are welcomed to the board, the advice to detach is good but nearly impossible to follow for a shell-shocked LBS. Specifically telling someone not to contact MLC spouse unless necessary I think is easier to follow.
I think also the LBS should consider not agreeing to meet or talk with or see the MLC spouse for a period of time.
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I feel it really depends on the type of MLCer you've got to advise newbies. I highly suggest it for any type of clinger R for the LBS to heal and get their bearings back, to fully read and gain understanding of MLC especially if there is an OP.
I see NC or a Not To Contact Me boundary as an adult time out to help the LBS.
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I think here we are saying "no contact" as in no initiating contact or spending time together unless absolutely necessary.
Most likely. But that is quite different from the boundary No Contact.
The advice to detach is valid, but I agree that it is nearly impossible to implement by a shell-shocked LBS. It is something that comes with time and cannot be rushed.
My feeling is that when people are welcomed to the board, the advice to detach is good but nearly impossible to follow for a shell-shocked LBS. Specifically telling someone not to contact MLC spouse unless necessary I think is easier to follow.
It may be, but many also do not find this easy or possible. In fact, detach is not that different from contacting only when necessary.
But the thing to have in mind is that not all MLCers are alike, nor are the LBS. Some LBS are fine with contact and so are their MLCers, others are not.
Clingers need a lot of contact. Vanishers (I am talking of real Vanishers, the ones the LBS never, ever heards from, not the ones who say "hi" once or twice a year, those are on-and-off) of course need no contact and they are the ones who cut all contact.
I think also the LBS should consider not agreeing to meet or talk with or see the MLC spouse for a period of time.
Why? Some MLCers are mild MLCers. Some LBS have small children with the MLCer. Some have live-in MLCers. It is not so simple, and, for some, that does not work.
I think detach is better because it allows for a number of situations. Seeing or not seeing the MLCer is up to each LBS and also depends of the type of MLCer they have.
Some here have always remained in contact and regularly see their MLCer. Those seem to be the ones who have a better relationship with the MLCer and who have better changes of reconnection and reconlciling.
If you are talking of some time off the MLCer for the benefit of the LBS, that is a different thing. And I think LBS do that. When we need time out from our MLCer, we say so to them (for those of us who have the MLCer around in one way or another).
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The sometimes sad thing with this forum, is that there's this impression that there's a set of viewpoints that seem like they're written in stone. Well, nothing ever is. As we can all so clearly see, since there are vanishers, boomerangs, wallowers and many more and many in between and since they all respond so differently to different kinds of behavior (or do not respond at all). What works for one doesn't for another and so on. That's why I think it's so important to be welcoming to ALL viewpoints, and not to slam them down.
Evas, you were not No Contact, you were no contact. Like you said, you have a son, so there was some contact.
Anjae, I made that clear. I wasn't aware that there was a lower case "no contact". Seriously, you HAD to point that out?
Also, for some, early one, even with no contac or No Contact (they are different), the MLCer may feel desperate and seem to come close to the LBS. But it is not genuine. It is only out of fear.
This too. I mean who knows? Maybe sometimes it is genuine?
Moving far away is also not going to bring a MLCer out of their crisis.
This is untrue. I haven't looked it up now, but I know I've read about "traumas" that can shock an MLCer out of the tunnel. A partner/spouse/X moving far away may well be such a trauma.
I often feel unwelcome at this forum exactly for this reason, this nitpicking, this "know-it-all". My views and ideas may be different but that doesn't mean they aren't valid. For me it doesn't really matter much, I have my success story, but maybe my story (and many other similar stories) can help people out there.
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Ok, I'm confused. What s the difference between No Contact and no contact?
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Moving far away is also not going to bring a MLCer out of their crisis.
This is untrue. I haven't looked it up now, but I know I've read about "traumas" that can shock an MLCer out of the tunnel. A partner/spouse/X moving far away may well be such a trauma.
If I'm being honest, then this kind of scares the hell out of me.
A month after H moved out last summer, I talked about moving out of state and he thought it was a "great idea."
And now HE has moved 1100 miles away.
And he is aware that I will be moving to a different state for the winter and then after that I have NO IDEA where I will end up living permanently.
This is of no concern whatsoever to him.
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Nassau1124, I'm not saying that moving far away is going to bring YOURS or any other MLCer out of the tunnel. I'm saying that the threat of me moving away (to another country in my case) helped bring MINE out.
I'm saying all MLCers respond differently. There's no set of "rules" as to what works (or doesn't). So your H moved far away and where you are ending up is of no concern to him. Well, you know, that may or may not be true!
In the beginning I didn't see things clearly. I saw things from a perspective of intense pain. I didn't see how my clinging boomerang tried to get back several times. In fact I didn't see it later either, until he was back with me and we talked about it and he pointed it out. Several times he said things like "I don't care" (using much nastier words), but in hindsight I realized he cared a whole lot. See what I mean? So when you say that your moving away is of no concern whatsoever to your H, all I can say is: Are you really sure?
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Evas I think your points are really great. I think the type of abandonment and emotional abuse experienced can be so intense and pain/shock so great that unless there is someone to totally commandeer the LBS and guide them, the LBS can (very innocently and understandably) make the situation worse, and also as you point out disregard overtures.
I am of the mind that many MLC -- especially extreme high energy -- is neurological, kind of like bipolar. Can you "shock" a person out of a manic bipolar episode? I don't know but I think that you can make that person feel the consequences much faster if you stay away. Also you can avoid aggravating their condition.
(It's an unfair burden I think because no one is warned of this condition.)
My family actually went "no contact" on my husband as a consequence for his behavior. I think this is very powerful to him, more powerful than any argument that I attempted to make about why his behavior was hurtful. I know he has sobbed to our son about this.
I think people should not be shy about sharing what works and even questioning accepted advice on this site. In many ways it may be helpful if people do experiment.
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Actually, My2Girls, pretty much everyone in the board who is reconnecting or reconciled never used No Contact. They may had no contact for a little while, but never went No Contact.
This makes absolutely no sense. The question was asked of us who went NC. You obviously didn't. There aren't that many reconciliation stories on HS. There are far more on other forums of people who did go NC and moved on.
There are numerous articles as well: Joe Beam, and Dr Paul Hegstrom ( Life skills International ) both recommend NC and moving on. As well as many therapists. Rejoice Marriage Ministries promotes the same line of thinking. So does Heart's Blessing. They can't all be wrong. NC means that you don't contact them. It doesn't mean they don't contact you. Besides, there numerous articles about men who will chase the woman who ignore them. And vice versa.
I've been accused of making a blanket statement. But, I have the evidence in my case that says that's there's got to be something to NC. There are others on this thread as well, that feel the same way. We don't have to agree. But, we are willing to agree to disagree.
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Well.
I've been on this site for 4yrs now. I've yet to see a reconciliation. It is disheartening. I've been forced NC because my MLCer took out a restraining order on me. It was a god send. I would have NEVER been able to handle her madness. I could have never been the anchor that I am told they do desperately need.
I have no reconciliation either. I've been NC for all of it....
That being said. She still has the smallest shot at a re-connection because I never had to talk to that crazy son of a beee-och.
This is just MHO. I think it is healthiest for everyone involved to leave them totally alone while they tackle their own personal hell.
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Evas, you aren't the only one.
There are several people on this forum who will pick a fight for a differing point of view. Anjae, I'm calling you out on this one. It's not the first time I've had to either. Your responses have been nothing more than nit picking for the sake of argument.
Most of your arguments have been at best distractions. To be honest, it really looks like your are merely trying to self promote as an authority on the subject. If I'm wrong, I stand corrected. But, that's the appearance you've given. Not just on this thread, but others as well.
No Contact vs no contact? Are you really trying to make this one fly? I'm trying to get people to critically think for a change. Distractions hamper that. So does conformance. I see a lot of pressure to conform on this forum. That's a shame, because it makes the forum inauthentic.
Your stance is pretty clear: you will not be swayed. And, I highly doubt you will sway any of us to your line of thinking on this thread either. Your agreement points are weak, and you really haven't supplied any other evidence than one article to support your claim. That's not enough. But, that's for another thread. Maybe you could start one: NC vs Contact. I'm sure you'll get lots of responses. Post it, and let's see what happens.
This is about research to get to a conclusion that hasn't been investigated extensively: is NC or is it not a viable solution for some MLCers? That's the real issue here. That's also the point of this thread. I don't think it's about anything other than we seem to be seeing swifter movement. That seems to be causing some discomfort to those who aren't NC. The possibility of hidden envy may also be a factor. I'm not going to discount that one.
I'm not saying that it's THE sign, I'm just saying it's A sign. I have also had quite a few friends that have personally gone through MLC and they told me to go NC. This isn't me making this up, it was their advice as someone who went into the tunnel. They recommend it, because it was the only thing that penetrated the FOG. Anchor checking is done to make sure we don't go anywhere, and is not a sign that they want to come home. It's just a way of making sure they aren't abandoned. Period. Their words not mine. They're totally self absorbed, and you're kidding yourself if you think any differently. The LBSer isn't even part of the equation. And they don't even remember many times what they've said or done. How's that for checking out of reality for a bit.
In his book, "Angry Men and the Women Who Love Them", Dr Paul Hegstrom stated that provoking behavior is just a test to see if they can maintain control. If his wife Judy reacted, he had her hooked and therefore he felt safe. He still had control and she wouldn't leave him. If she ignored him, he felt she no longer loved him. Which one do you think had more impact? www.lifeskillsintl.org
Joe Beam says the same thing. He also talks quite a bit about limerance. www.joebeam.com
My point is, that some LBSers are adding to the pain of others based on this nick picking. Who's it for anyway? It's certainly not to help your fellow LBSer. We shouldn't be trying to make ourselves feel better at someone else's expense. The MLCer is already doing a fine job.
This site is one of many, and not to be taken as the only authority on this subject. I appreciate what RC has done, but as I've stated quite clearly in the past that I don't agree with her and her views on everything. That is why this is a forum, and why I chose a discussion. Discussions are about everyone sharing. Whether you like what they say or not.
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As always LawProfessor is the voice of reason.
Good Afternoon My3Girls,
In reference to your discussion thread:
By limiting or denying freedom of speech and expression, we take away a lot of potential. We take away thoughts and ideas before they even have the opportunity to hatch. We build a world around negatives - you can't say, think, or do this or that. Jill McCorkle
That is what I believe has happened on this forum all too often.
We can never be sure that the opinion we are endeavouring to stifle is a false opinion; and even if we were sure, stifling it would be an evil still. John Stuart Mill
Discussion is replaced or stifled by those that insist on:
-following a dogma without thought
-safety and ease of manageability
-protecting some from the things they don’t wish to read
Yet that is not conducive to progress and inquiry which is something we all want as to MLC. It is not the discussing that is dangerous but the lack of ability to openly discuss topics for fear that one will become involved in a slug fest.
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Ex would have been a clinger, but for me making him a Vanisher. Certainly he was a high energy replayer. (As well J was a high energy replayer, and clinger.) Ex wanted to have both me as his best friend and OW as his lover. J maintained the best friend status with his wife and had many lovers. J was gone 9 years on his path. Each time he was in contact with his wife, she assured him she was still where he left her. He only came out when he moved in with me and was introduced to consequences and working without a net.
I too went no contact early on. I was no contact for over two years, more nearly three, after surviving a divorce more akin to the English War of the Roses than most others that I know about. Notably he and I had several physical confrontations that culminated in my using a section of 2 x 4 to punctuate the message that he was never to hit me or to contact me again. He complied with that message until the past year or so when he began contacting me regularly.
As of this date, my ex H is begging me to allow him to come home. I have received flowers, candy, poetry, antiques, artwork, jewelry and more than one apology email. He is progressing nicely along his path at the present. It is me that has not wavered from the decision to not allow him to return home.
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There is virtually no proof as to anything related to MLC, beginning at the very base which is the question of whether such exists or not. No proof can be had unless one begins with discussion and inquiry. But if not allowed to or attacked for doing so, proof will never be had.
We are all well aware that the writings here state that NC should not be used except as a way to protect the LBS in extreme circumstances to paraphrase. As well, we are likely equally as clear that at some point, if one wishes to reconnect and perhaps reconcile, some degree of contact is necessary. What seems to not be as clear to some is the middle ground. No one said a person has to stay no contact forever unless they choose to but if that is there choice obviously they cannot hope to reconcile.
I, too, support a period of no contact of sorts. My reasons are as follows:
For me, love cannot exist without respect. In the MLC, these people have lost the ability to respect the LBS, so love is not possible on their part. Cheating, lying, name calling, acting as child, selfishness, financial misconduct, failure to assist with the children, failure to honor marital vows, failure to participate in marital life as a partner, etc are all acts of disrespect MLC spouses may participate in to some degree or another.
In the beginning, the LBS needs time to rebuild strength and confidence, to gain their footing under themselves, to begin building their lives. For many it may be easier to do that with no contact with the MLC spouse. It takes time to break cycles that include codependency and habits of acting in a more similar manner to his mother than to his partner as well. It takes time to begin to see the need for mirror work and for self growth.
At the same time the MLC person needs space to grow on their path, whatever that may be. If most could do this with us there, they would likely have had a transition rather than a crisis. For so many, the very presence of the spouse seems to constrain the inherent need of the MLC person to grow up in the sense that they need to establish their identity, learn lessons they missed in the past, and become healthy, perhaps because some sense the expectations of the LBS, some persist in cake eating knowing they will always be welcomed back so why not run and take huge risks if someone is always there to care for them. Why face the demons of their own dark side if they do not have to?
As well, the more the contact, the more debris that accumulates. They say something hurtful. We say something they find judgmental or hurtful. They are working on such a base level of feeling and reacting that anything can trigger guilt which often results in the need to run away. We get depressed or upset. They get depressed or upset. Too much debris is something that inhibits returns home in my experience.
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A function of the success stories here is ability of the LBS to get back on their feet, not the MLC spouse returning home. One of the building blocks is respect. Another is strength. Without those, no new relationship is possible in my opinion.
It matters not a bit to me what the motive is for going NC as long as the person is taking the time to heal and move forward. This is where the focus should be, here on the board, not on any type of paving the way as I believe that is a huge waste of time in the beginning, and only helpful late in the journey, something organic that may happen, not something to focus on manufacturing.
It is not the responsibility of the LBS to make it easy for these people to return home. I absolutely refused to make anything easy for J from his sobriety to working to paying bills to completing his journey. Had I done that, I would have taken away his sense of pride in his hard won accomplishments. That would have robbed him of his manhood. He had to value it enough to do it on his own. The lessons stuck and he is quite well today.
As to my ex, I have not and am not going to make it easy for him either. I don’t want a spouse who comes back because he sees returning to me as an easy move. I want him to respect me, my accomplishments, and my strength. If he cannot do that, there is no place for him to return to in my house as there is no basis for real love or true friendship.
As to speed, a car can drive faster on a smooth track with no obstacles, than on a street full of potholes, pedestrians, bicyclists and the like.
Not contacting them for a period is loving them enough to respect their need to follow their path without help or assistance, and using that time to follow our own path.
(Naturally all of the above is based on my opinion.)
And after all, is that not why we all originally came here, because we loved our spouses so very much?
Again, two more pieces of evidence for you.
LP
RCR Edited to put LawProfessor's whole name--sorry, I was confused since Law itself is a word and I don't usually recall who is what acronym. And since Anjae refers to her MLCer as Mr. J... I really got lost.
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This site is one of many, and not to be taken as the only authority on this subject. I appreciate what RC has done, but as I've stated quite clearly in the past that I don't agree with her and her views on everything. That is why this is a forum, and why I chose a discussion. Discussions are about everyone sharing. Whether you like what they say or not.
I am curious - if this is how you feel, why do you continue to post here? Everyone is entitled to their own opinion and it is encouraged that we share opposing opinions in a respectful way to nurture growth. Healthy debate is good. In my opinion, this is not a healthy debate or even a discussion now.
The culture and tone of this forum is an extension of RCR's beliefs and research. Most people are here because their beliefs align with what RCR has written.
I had a hard time in the early days with suggestions that were made to me because I was truly not ready to fully consider them. However, I never thought that someone was wrong because of how they did or did not do something. I took the information in and decided for myself which parts aligned with me and my personality and left the rest behind.
I have to say that the tone of thread is very concerning to me.
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This site is one of many, and not to be taken as the only authority on this subject. I appreciate what RC has done, but as I've stated quite clearly in the past that I don't agree with her and her views on everything. That is why this is a forum, and why I chose a discussion. Discussions are about everyone sharing. Whether you like what they say or not.
I am curious - if this is how you feel, why do you continue to post here? Everyone is entitled to their own opinion and it is encouraged that we share opposing opinions in a respectful way to nurture growth. Healthy debate is good. In my opinion, this is not a healthy debate or even a discussion now.
The culture and tone of this forum is an extension of RCR's beliefs and research. Most people are here because their beliefs align with what RCR has written.
I had a hard time in the early days with suggestions that were made to me because I was truly not ready to fully consider them. However, I never thought that someone was wrong because of how they did or did not do something. I took the information in and decided for myself which parts aligned with me and my personality and left the rest behind.
I have to say that the tone of thread is very concerning to me.
You just validated all my points. Thank you.
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If you don't like this thread Searching, no one is forcing you to read it. Or, comment. I made myself extremely clear. The nitpicking is apparent in your last post. Or shall I say "cherry picking"?
If you can only read and get something out of the last paragraph, then maybe you need reconsider making a point based on your feelings, and not based on the facts.
You can be as concerned as you like, but Law made a valid point. I guess you missed that as well.
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This site is one of many, and not to be taken as the only authority on this subject. I appreciate what RC has done, but as I've stated quite clearly in the past that I don't agree with her and her views on everything. That is why this is a forum, and why I chose a discussion. Discussions are about everyone sharing. Whether you like what they say or not.
I am curious - if this is how you feel, why do you continue to post here? Everyone is entitled to their own opinion and it is encouraged that we share opposing opinions in a respectful way to nurture growth. Healthy debate is good. In my opinion, this is not a healthy debate or even a discussion now.
The culture and tone of this forum is an extension of RCR's beliefs and research. Most people are here because their beliefs align with what RCR has written.
I had a hard time in the early days with suggestions that were made to me because I was truly not ready to fully consider them. However, I never thought that someone was wrong because of how they did or did not do something. I took the information in and decided for myself which parts aligned with me and my personality and left the rest behind.
I have to say that the tone of thread is very concerning to me.
You just validated all my points. Thank you.
I think you missed my point all together...
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No, I got your point. It still doesn't change my position. You want conformity, you're not going to get it. Period. I will repeat, if you don't like the the tread, don't read it.
We are speaking about our thoughts and issues. Guess what? They don't align with RC. You have made that choice not everyone else has. So speak for yourself. That's what I'm doing. There are just a few other people on this thread that agree with me. You obviously feel threatened by this.
And this is the last I'm going to say on it, because this is another distraction from the topic. And I will not waste anymore of my time arguing about something that doesn't pertain to this discussion. I also won't be bullied into submission either.
Have a wonderful day. :)
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If you feel the need to discuss this further, then feel free to PM me. This thread is not the place for things to get personal.
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I'm finding this discussion really curious -- I don't think that M3G asked opinion of "Clocking MLCer Over the Head Early, What Were Your Results?" I think she is posing a very benign question really. As others have pointed out, "no contact" is a boundary advocated by other sites.
I for one am very curious, because I did not have good results at all. This isn't due to anything other than not knowing what "mlc" really is and therefore not knowing what is going on or how to respond to. I think the most interesting threads on this site are speculative.
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No, I got your point. It still doesn't change my position. You want conformity, you're not going to get it. Period. I will repeat, if you don't like the the tread, don't read it.
I do not want conformity in any way, shape or form.
We are speaking about our thoughts and issues. Guess what? They don't align with RC. You have made that choice not everyone else has. So speak for yourself. That's what I'm doing. There are just a few other people on this thread that agree with me. You obviously feel threatened by this.
Really? Threatened?
I don't disagree with your opinions - I think that your points would be taken better if they didn't feel so defensive.
And this is the last I'm going to say on it, because this is another distraction from the topic. And I will not waste anymore of my time arguing about something that doesn't pertain to this discussion. I also won't be bullied into submission either.
Wow - I don't even know what to say that! No one wants to change you or your opinions. I welcome a different way of looking at things.
Have a wonderful day. :)
Hope you have a wonderful weekend :-)
On a side note: If anyone else sees what My3girls did in my posts please PM me and provide me feedback. I am rather confused as to how I came across as so negative and would like to reflect on that to figure out a better way to express myself. Thanks!
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I'm finding this discussion really curious -- I don't think that M3G asked opinion of "Clocking MLCer Over the Head Early, What Were Your Results?" I think she is posing a very benign question really. As others have pointed out, "no contact" is a boundary advocated by other sites.
I for one am very curious, because I did not have good results at all. This isn't due to anything other than not knowing what "mlc" really is and therefore not knowing what is going on or how to respond to. I think the most interesting threads on this site are speculative.
I agree. I don't think anyone here is trying to "cure" MLC. Life strategy and healing also involves coping mechanisms with the MLCer that might involve NC. It's interesting to see if that resulted in any particular changes. Comparing that can lead to more insights, which can ultimately give an LBS either comfort or closure (or both!).
And I'd argue that every thread that is not exclusively the journaling of the LBS is speculative. ;) Absolutely none of us are inside the MLCers heads and can only draw conclusions based on our perceptions, which are greatly affected by our own experience, pain, and desires for the future. That even includes if we've had our own MLC because each situation is so unique.
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Well, I see I hit a nerve. For everyone else who would like to continue the discussion at hand, and to dismiss the hijacking attempt, let's continue.
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For clarification purposes the topic is: No contact early on, what were your results? Does anyone else have a story about their experiences with this particular discussion? Your results? Good, bad, or indifferent?
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I just want to point out the your original question was "who went no contact early on and who didn't, what were your results?" I don't think anyone posing their experiences that did not involve no contact were attempting to hijack your post. I now understand that your question meant no contact earlier vs later but that's not how I read it at first.
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My neighbor is a therapist and her husband did this to her. He ran off with a much, much younger woman -- right after my neighbor had suffered a serious medical problem.
She tackled it by remaining fairly calm, letting him go, and maintaining low contact. (Although she suffered a lot!) She told me she would correct things but it sounds like she did not overly engage. They maintained some contact but he was far away.
He almost filed for divorce but then ended up returning after six months. She said it took an additional year of "working it out" before things were back on track, and that he was much happier and more settled in the marriage now.
He himself told me he knew what he was doing was irrational, but he felt compelled to do it. He told me though that once he realized his wife truly no longer cared -- it scared him.
However, my neighbor said her husband was much more lucid and less volatile than mine. He was reading Jung, in therapy, and more self-aware.
I wonder sometimes if discussions on this site become polarized because MLC can be so varied as to almost be a spectrum disorder. To this point, I would actually think a great benefit to this site would be to rank MLCers like hurricanes. Some have low durations, surges, and damage whereas others are the opposite.
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Could we please be respectful? If we reply to a point, and there's nothing wrong with heated debate, try to omit names. For every opinion expressed on the forum there will be many reading who agree or disagree. No need to focus on a few posters & none of us are experts.
'No contact' is for you, the lbs--read RCR's articles & blogs on the subject. I had lots of contact with my x, then less & then I pretty much avoided contact because it wasn't healthy for me. I think he would have vanished anyway, sooner or later.
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Could we please be respectful? If we reply to a point, and there's nothing wrong with heated debate, try to omit names. For every opinion expressed on the forum there will be many reading who agree or disagree. No need to focus on a few posters & none of us are experts.
'No contact' is for you, the lbs--read RCR's articles & blogs on the subject. I had lots of contact with my x, then less & then I pretty much avoided contact because it wasn't healthy for me. I think he would have vanished anyway, sooner or later.
Let's let Calamity have the last word on this, and finally move on.
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Rug, Evas, who has been posting to this thread, is reconciled. So are RCR and Stayed. As well as BBhelp http://mlcforum.theherosspouse.com/index.php?topic=8080.0 ;F inding Hope http://mlcforum.theherosspouse.com/index.php?topic=8174.0 ; Sada http://mlcforum.theherosspouse.com/index.php?topic=8151.0 ; hopeandfaith http://mlcforum.theherosspouse.com/index.php?topic=7200.0 or NotGivingUpOnU http://mlcforum.theherosspouse.com/index.php?topic=2277.0 just to name a few.
There is lower case no contact that is quite different from No Contact. That difference is RCR creation, not mine. I asked RCR to come by an explain the difference.
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Rug, Evas, who has been posting to this thread, is reconciled. So are RCR and Stayed. As well as BBhelp http://mlcforum.theherosspouse.com/index.php?topic=8080.0 ;F inding Hope http://mlcforum.theherosspouse.com/index.php?topic=8174.0 ; Sada http://mlcforum.theherosspouse.com/index.php?topic=8151.0 ; hopeandfaith http://mlcforum.theherosspouse.com/index.php?topic=7200.0 or NotGivingUpOnU http://mlcforum.theherosspouse.com/index.php?topic=2277.0 just to name a few.
There is lower case no contact that is quite different from No Contact. That difference is RCR creation, not mine. I asked RCR to come by an explain the difference.
The rest of us have moved on passed this. I would suggest that do too. You are holding up progress. We are now moving on, whether you want to or not. Are you on or out?
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Look.
I've done a lot of damage on this site and my take will be different than someone else. I'm just saying. I've been NC for four years. I saw her one time about a year ago. She looks like she hasn't taken a p*** since she left the marriage. If I was or wasn't contacting her seems to be of no significance......
As far as the reconciliation stories.......? They are few and far between.
I've seen many, many people come and go from this site. This site isn't a cure all for everyone.......
The thread is a simple concept, a simple question.. Does NC help or hinder.
IMHO. Being and anchor and paving the way is counter productive.... They are hell bent on pursuing their own personal madness. Let them have at it with zero input from us... It is their deal. We aren't the one that destroyed them and we ain't the ones to fix them. In other words. I didn't lead her into this madness and I am not the one to lead her out.
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For those with therapists, maybe you should let them do a write up of what they think and post it here. I think that should yield some interesting results. Whose therapist besides mine has observed this site? Considering we're talking about NC.
Mine wanted to see what kind of things were being discussed. She was interested in how things were presented and what solutions were being provided. She had some interesting comments. Many positive, but she had some reservations. Anyone else have a therapist that checked out the site and forum?
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I guess NC is pretty controversial..I can only add my own experience NC
Wish I had the first time right off the bat....HAD to this second time. Currently NC at 3 years.
IMHO If the MLCer is driving you insane, being verbally abusive, is (or has been) physically abusive, yelling, threatening trying to intimidate and control you, not respecting boundaries, dragging you into drama with the kids or the ow/om or filling you in on the current sex life with an OM/OW or any other thing you feel is being said to intentionally hurt you. Sometimes just seeing them or talking like almost normal people brings pain. It's the only way to protect your sanity and heal. You are allowed to say " I cannot or will not do this" You are protecting you. Then take whatever time you may need to work on you and get stronger.
Maybe some of you will read the list and say some of this goes without saying. " Like well if he (or she ) ever hit me that would be my limit" or "If they are living with the ow/om that would be my limit" Only you can decide when you have had enough.
NC is for you so you can focus on you,heal, learn to love yourself, be grateful, and move forward.
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Here is a thread that was started to have other people share what their therapists have said about MLC:
http://mlcforum.theherosspouse.com/index.php?topic=7826.msg507232#msg507232
It is not exactly what you are asking for in that I do not know whether these therapists ever checked out HS or not.
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Here is a thread that was started to have other people share what their therapists have said about MLC:
http://mlcforum.theherosspouse.com/index.php?topic=7826.msg507232#msg507232
It is not exactly what you are asking for in that I do not know whether these therapists ever checked out HS or not.
Could you post the threads that are specific to the topic here for those who are interested? Thanks.
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For those with therapists, maybe you should let them do a write up of what they think and post it here. I think that should yield some interesting results. Whose therapist besides mine has observed this site? Considering we're talking about NC.
Mine wanted to see what kind of things were being discussed. She was interested in how things were presented and what solutions were being provided. She had some interesting comments. Many positive, but she had some reservations. Anyone else have a therapist that checked out the site and forum?
My therapist hasn't seen the site but was interested in knowing what it was doing for me and what I was getting out of it.
My neighbor who is a therapist told me she is often apprehensive about support groups because the people on then are not professionals.
However, I have to say getting to know someone who is a therapist will also lead a person to the conclusion that therapists can have a lot of problems, maybe even more than the average person!
I try to think of all the input I get as sort of an ant colony that is working together on a bigger project.
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Velika, our therapist are trained for this, and I agree with your therapist friend. There's a fine line that gets crossed in these kinds of groups. Hence the disclaimers. But, there is a certain responsibility that goes along with facilitating something like this. You can do a lot of damage to those who take things at face value. Every situation is different, we all should hold ourselves accountable for how we conduct ourselves and what we say.
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To the people that have MLC therapists, how did you find on that specifically dealt w/ MLC? From what I've read, there is no MLC recognition. Are they hard to find? Are there ones for the LBS, as well as the MLCer? Maybe this is not the right thread for this?
Sorry to hijack My3 it's just you stated 'our therapist are trained for this' and I just want to build more on that. Please feel free to reply on my thread, so this can not continue to intrude on this important topic.
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To the people that have MLC therapists, how did you find on that specifically dealt w/ MLC? From what I've read, there is no MLC recognition. Are they hard to find? Are there ones for the LBS, as well as the MLCer? Maybe this is not the right thread for this?
I think there are some therapists that do specialize in MLC. (For some reason I remember reading on Evas' thread that she found one?) I'm guessing perhaps in NYC and other major cities it would be easier to find someone with specific experience.
I was seeing my therapist before bomb drop — which was actually very lucky in many ways as he saw who I was before this crisis and had a lot of my own personal history. He is a transpersonal therapist, which is more spiritual and intuitive than other therapeutic models.
I have to say, I think transpersonal therapy would be ideal for a person in midlife crisis, as it is non-judgemental and deals with the health of the spirit.
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Thank you Velika. Again, sorry to hijack the thread My3. Back to discussing NC!
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Thank you Velika. Again, sorry to hijack the thread My3. Back to discussing NC!
You asked a pertinent question. :) You didn't hijack the thread.
My therapist's ex husband had gone through and MLC so I was fortunate as well. She has a lot of great insight. She told me that too many people view themselves as victims. It's that mentality that causes people to stay stuck according to her. She's good at calling me out when I'm in victim mode. That has helped.
So... back to our regularly scheduled program.
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I went NC twice during my W's crisis.Once VERY early on…like 2 months post BD.I was so devastated I checked myself into a Wellness centre and told Pumpkin that I was going into retreat to heal and to not contact me till I was done.There was clear evidence after that 5 week period that my absence in her day to day life had an affect.I want to be clear here…I went NC at that time for ME….not to elicit any sort of response from Pumpkin,although we had a significant touch and go after the fact.
RCR does not advice No Contact. If one has any interest in reconciling, No Contact is not going to be of help.
I think RCR does actually advise NC under certain conditions.She actually helped me during a counselling session to craft my NC letter to Pumpkin.I am one of those that has reconciled and Pumpkin will be the first to tell you that NC was instrumental in her wake up.In her own words,"it took away my soother and gave me a swift kick where I needed it."That said,our experience of NC having an effect on the MLC'r doesn't mean that NC will have the same result on others.There are no guarantees in MLC and with the vast differences in personality and relationships…one should always follow their own hearts and intuition as to what is best for them and their distinct situation.
NC in the case of abuse is a useful tool for the LBS.Lets be clear though,that abuse comes in many forms…not just physical….financial,emotional etc. all come to mind.An MLC'r who is actively engaged in adultery without remorse is indeed abusive.The emotional trauma I suffered from Pumpkins affair was as painful as being physically abused and has the same lingering scars.
“One's dignity may be assaulted, vandalized and cruelly mocked, but it can never be taken away unless it is surrendered.”-Michael J. Fox
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I think RCR does actually advise NC under certain conditions.
For the LBS healing, like you did, and in case of abuse, that I can recall off.
"I'm not an advocate of strict No Contact in early MLC which is often a fertile time for Paving the Way because MLCers disconnect gradually. Use this time to begin laying a foundation for a future return, because MLC gets worse and contact and communication may decrease, along with your opportunities for direct contact and communication to Pave the Way. If your goal is reconciliation, at some point you need to start rebuilding communication—even though rebuilding is a future event if this crisis is still new. Purposes for No Contact
Healing "
"No Contact is an advanced tool mainly meant for later in the crisis when you have caught your breath—even though you may still feel wobbly. That does not mean you should never apply No Contact in the early days or weeks of the crisis, but the application is different and limited."
From http://www.midlifecrisismarriageadvocate.com/standing-actions_contact-and-communication_contact-levels_no-contact.html
There are also these blog posts, where NC is further explained, but the blog is still down.
http://loveanyway.theherosspouse.com/communication/no-contact_clearing-up-the-confusion/
http://loveanyway.theherosspouse.com/communication/no-contact-more-about/
RCR is not a fan of NC early on and she does not advocate it to provoke a reaction in the MLCer. No Contact is for the LBS.
And if used early on, it for be used for a brief period and for a reason that has to do with the LBS.
It may have an effect on some MLCers, but, like you said, it does not on others. If No Contact was a sure to have a MLCer have a shake and come out of crisis, those of us who are No Contact or never contact our MLCer would all had seem our MLCers back. We haven't.
For some, all NC does is to send them further into the alienator's arms. That was Mr J's case. The more I cut contact, the closer and attached he become to OW2.
The fact that some MLCers may become closer to the alienator if the LBS goes No Contact, especially for a long time (remember than No Contact means we will not answer the phone if our MCLer calls) is a reason to caution about NC. And it is never enough to stress that NC is for the LBS, not to try to bring the MLCer back.
In the case of abuse, more than a useful tool, NC is a necessity, And if the MLCer has been physically violent, like mine or In It's we really need to stop having contact with the MLCer.
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Going back to the original question... I have been on this site since 2013, went NO contact and have been attempting to "reconcile " for over 2 years . So, here goes my 2 cents worth .
I passionately agree with NO Contact , but clearly recognize it is not for every situation , every relationship etc. I had no children under 18 , so I had no children to think of . I was employed ft and needed nothing from him ZERO. All those things change weather or not no contact is a reasonable decision.
Having said that , I will confess that my absolute immediate intuition, survival reaction or "flee" response was to absolutely avoid any contact whatsoever. I was severely traumatised .. and that is the truth. I went NO contact before I ever realized there was such a decision to make . I never called him, text him, emailed him and I never responded to any contact from him. I threw up instead. If I absolutely HAD TO see him ( daughters University Graduation ) , I took Ativan to live thru the anxiety . . I realize , that for me it was an absolute trauma reaction, not a decision . I slammed him with boundaries because I never wanted to see him or to have him come and go from the house. There was an immediate shut down from me .
My husband's crazy midlife mindset was "I did not love him anymore , he could not make me happy and I was done with him". So my total NO contact validated his crazy thinking . My actions convinced him that in fact I did not want him, I did not love him etc etc . And yet, he was back in 93 days begging for forgiveness and to come home. Go figure that mess out??? WTF?
If I had it to do again.. in hindsight only ... I 100% would have thrown him out of the house the day he said " I am done, I do not love you anymore ". And I would have gone no contact . The suffering I tolerated for the 4 months of his monsterring and sleeping with me and her has deeply changed who I am. All of us have tolerated such pain. I am a firm believer in no contact, the sooner the better ... afterall, the vows and commitment that were given in a marriage were broken .. there is no longer a marriage . All there is is any angry , abusive stranger . I do not need contact with this stranger .
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I think it's safe to say, that so far in our discussion there are more pros than cons for now. Let's keep this focused on the people contributing their stories. We are all familar with the articles. I don't believe we need anymore reminders. So there's no more need to post RCR's links. I'd like to stay with the research of real life stories for now. This is a discussion about results not articles. This is not about proving anyone right or wrong, it's for research purposes and being able to make a informed decision based on results. All other distactions will be ignored on my part, and will no longer be addressed by myself. I would suggest that any others who feel the same way follow suit to keep things moving.
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I didn't use no contact early on for 2 reasons. 1) I couldn't, I was too raw. 2) We had kids. I didn't really use it later on either although I did get stronger with my boundaries. I refused to attend outings if he was still in a relationship with OW. Otherwise, I would spend time in his company.
My H had a fairly mild crisis so I never really got monster or any sort of entitled prat behaviour. I think I probably would have initiated no contact if I had seen that but it would have been a reaction rather than a decision.
I lost it at him a few times and I am sure he was expecting no contact to follow. He has since told me that he would have accepted that because he knew what he had done and felt that would have been a fair consequence.
For my situation, I am in the 'stay in contact' camp. I can see the value of NC though and there is plenty of 'evidence' to support it. It makes sense and it does protect the LBS and give them a bit of breathing space.
I think most of us operate on instinct initially. Some of us fight, some of us flight (like Barbiedoll described). We are on the other side of the MLC'ers seesaw and we ride it up and down with them. We have been intertwined with them for many years and it takes a long time to unravel from that, even if they're vanishers. I have read lots of people talk of still being able to 'feel' their MLCer from a distance. The ability and decision to get off comes later with a clarity we wish we had in the early days.
I love that there are many long timers on this site who have so much wisdom to share and do so graciously. I know that newbies spend a lot of time on here and soak up as much information as possible. What I would like to say to newbies is this: You are where you are and if you can't (or don't want to) go no contact, don't. If you want to, then do it.. Later on, if you change your mind either way, accept that you made the best decision you could at the time. Acceptance of all of your decisions is key to your healing. Wishing you had done something different early on is not going to help you. You can't really 'pay it forward' and save others from making your perceived mistakes either (if it did, child rearing would be a whole lot easier ;D) Don't beat yourself up if you read something and feel you 'should' be doing something different. You will do it when you're ready and if it's right for you.
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I think this discussion is really great. I think what Rainbow and Barbie wrote about abuse is so true. I absolutely think infidelity without remorse is abuse. Some of what we call on this board "monstering" fits the definition of narcissistic abuse, which is extremely traumatic and destabilizing. Whether or not the MLCer is true NPD (something a new LBS is in no position to evaluate) bomb drop is not unlike a classic "devalue and discard."
I'm going to commit Hero Spouse heresy but I actually think the welcome letter that is posted is not forceful or instructive enough for a newly traumatized person. There is no way someone experincng imminent loss of family, home, spouse, children and the radical personality change of an MLC spouse (with blame, intentional cruelty, history rewriting, etc) can begin to comprehend the concept of "detach" -- let alone implement it.
The 180 also is not enough for this situation. Telling someone to act cheerful and positive when they are completely traumatized and likely in a state of shock is unrealistic.
To this end I feel like anyone who arrives at the forum would be far better off being told to go no contact. With specific instructions of what this means. Like a type of triage. Once the LBS has removed themselves from the abuse I think they are in a far better position to take small steps to process, take care of themselves, and evaluate what is going on.
It's true some people come to this site with more ambiguous ILYBINILWY type scenarios. In this case, giving them space may be a more appropriate response.
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Here's the thing, though - HS isn't a program or system. RCR is pretty upfront that the articles and blog are based on her personal experience, the research she did during Chuck's crisis, and their personal outcome. I'm not speaking for RCR, but I never got the impression in the 4.5 years that I've been here that she wants people to do things any specific way. I always thought that was the strength of the mentorship team, too - there is no one "type" of mentor. So many times, just being validated and getting a pat on the back when I had a bad day was the best thing this forum offered. I could name a slew of other sites, forums, and gurus in the field who would require hundreds of dollars for access to their content or input, and you would get exactly the same guarantee that it would work for your marriage as what we are receiving here for free, only without someone profiting from our grief.
I'm not disagreeing with you that people don't require more. I absolutely think they do! But that needs to come from professional counselors, attorneys, and other professionals who will fit our specific situational needs. HS just can't provide it all, and I don't think it was ever meant to.
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This was written by RainbowGal, but I could've written it myself. It's a testimony just how important NC (in my case "nc", since we had a small child) can be:
I am one of those that has reconciled and Pumpkin will be the first to tell you that NC was instrumental in her wake up.In her own words,"it took away my soother and gave me a swift kick where I needed it.
I fully agree with this:
I think it's safe to say, that so far in our discussion there are more pros than cons for now. Let's keep this focused on the people contributing their stories. We are all familar with the articles. I don't believe we need anymore reminders. So there's no more need to post RCR's links. I'd like to stay with the research of real life stories for now. This is a discussion about results not articles.
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On the issue of kids. IF you are forced to stay in contact that is one thing. But if you aren't I would suggest you go NC for one reason, and one only: your kids are watching how you handle your situation. If you're a nervous wreck, how does that help them?
My kids' therapist told me that I had to be stronger than I ever was before, for their sake. They needed to see stability in their mother since their father was obviously the unstable one. He told me that it was also my job to make them feel secure in an unsure situation. He said it was a lot of pressure, but if I did this, they would come out stronger for it.
If your kids are adults, then there really is no need to have any contact. It may mean choosing to decline invitations to events that your EX, STBX, or spouse is attending. Again, it's a personal choice. Having said that, I have minor kids and I still went NC. My younger 2 are 12 and 16. I had to really make the effort to get them to stay in contact with him. In our case it was court ordered. They didn't want to deal with him, but I made sure they understood that their dad was not well. And, that he was not in his right mind. With counseling, they soon learned to understand.
He's not much of a father these days, and keeps things very light. I must say since their return, he has taken more of an interest in them. I still haven't received and apology, but I'm hoping that that will be soon. That would show me that at least he was cognizant of the damage he's done. Again, only time will tell.
My EX seems to be waking up, he is still with the AD (apparently they went into business together ) but is contacting the girls more. I have encouraged this, not for me, but for them. They feel sorry for their father and saw how he was living ( he's miserable, and regrets everything that has happened, so he says ). It wasn't pretty, nor was their visit very pleasant until after his admission.
In terms of a Vanisher, they're the ones that have chosen NC for you, so it's not like you had a choice. I prefer choices. I chose to go NC for my own healing, and it has worked for me. I chose it at the advice of a male friend that went through MLC. He advised me to do it, and it saved me months of grief, heartache, and sleepless nights.
Just the day before my girls went to visit their father, he monstered. This was on August 14th. Since his admission to the girls nearly 2 weeks ago, I haven't heard anything else from him ( with the exception of the issues with the car ). That to me is a good sign. He might actually be thinking. Only time will tell. The AD sent my MD a friend request on Facebook, she declined. I couldn't believe she actually had the nerve to do it, but then again, she's desperate to be accepted by my younger 2 so it's no real surprise. After that admission ( made in her presence ) I'm sure she feels she's on shaky ground. I know I would.
This discussion was merely started to be able to compare the outcomes of NC in various stages. Nothing more. There seems to be this push to get us off topic. Let's not give into temptation. Let's keep focused and see this through.
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Every situation is different, as is each one of us.
No contact was the only possible way for me to survive. Just pure evil....
Remember, no contact is for US!!!
And we are all human.. It doesn't matter if they wake up or not, we have to live!!! You have to decide what is best for you!!
We are here to support, not judge...
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Here's the thing, though - HS isn't a program or system. RCR is pretty upfront that the articles and blog are based on her personal experience, the research she did during Chuck's crisis, and their personal outcome. I'm not speaking for RCR, but I never got the impression in the 4.5 years that I've been here that she wants people to do things any specific way. I always thought that was the strength of the mentorship team, too - there is no one "type" of mentor. So many times, just being validated and getting a pat on the back when I had a bad day was the best thing this forum offered. I could name a slew of other sites, forums, and gurus in the field who would require hundreds of dollars for access to their content or input, and you would get exactly the same guarantee that it would work for your marriage as what we are receiving here for free, only without someone profiting from our grief.
I'm not disagreeing with you that people don't require more. I absolutely think they do! But that needs to come from professional counselors, attorneys, and other professionals who will fit our specific situational needs. HS just can't provide it all, and I don't think it was ever meant to.
Very much agree Ready
My MLCer is one who had an early mild crisis 10 years prior to this one. It was at a time when there was pretty much zero information available, and I had absolutely no idea what on earth was going on, except that I knew he was strangely very detached from me and the boys, was irritable and depressed and was having an EA.
I kicked him out of the house immediately when I discovered he was lying to me about his EA, and went NC.
He was back home within a month, and within a few months back to his lovely old self.
Until, 2010 when all hell broke loose with BD and this time a psychotic break down, running away to his affair partner, and all of the ensuing chaos and terror from his monstering.
We had three early teens together, a business together and worked together, so NC was impossible and he was so completely out of control.
Any time I said he could no longer appear at the house whenever he felt like it and had to leave me alone, he would monster and cause some trauma that affected the boys and me financially.
Involving lawyers who baited me, but refusing to resolve anything. I went as dark as I could, and very rarely contacted him unless it was essential due to the kids or business.
He has been the clingiest of clingers for 6 years, and it is only now since I finally was able to coax him into a settlement 6mths ago, that he is finally leaving me alone.
His MLC delusional fantasy has been his 'two lives'. He no longer has any power over me to enable that delusion.
Each of us has to do what we have to do to survive this thing.
I think if NC 'works', from my experience, it's because the crisis is on the milder end of the spectrum, just as it was for my MLCer the first time around.
Given the level of extremity of this crisis, I am not convinced that his thinking will ever be anywhere normal ever again. Not sure he will be able to recover from this length of delusional thinking.
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So far the census is that early NC is good for monstering clinging boomerangs. Since I'm part of this particular group, I still hold true to my opinion that NC is a viable solution. Has anyone gone NC with anyone who didn't monster verbally, but was abusing in other ways? ei. Financially, economically, withheld information, uses the kids as pawns, etc...?
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Yes mine. My H loves to go on these mini trips and I don't know anything until he comes back and posts pix on social media. Same with spending ridiculous amounts of money, especially on clothes and his appearance. I'm on a no to contact me boundary now for this invisible life he leads as named by Larry Bilotta. But with my H it's not really invisible because he posts the pix after. I still would like to know before hand yet I am giving him the so called freedom (MLC script) he desires. ::)
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My3Girls,
So your hypothesis is that going no contact or No Contact (both, or either?) will result in a higher rate of MLCer return and thus a higher rate of marital reconciliation. Now you need testimony from LBS.
I will give you my testimony, but before I do...
I get that you started this thread on the Topic of No Contact/no contact with a narrow focus and not on the General Topic of all aspects of nc/NC. But that is not how discussion threads are going to work. Go ahead and keep bringing people back to that focus as it does keep that track going, but be careful of chastising people for posting on the more general aspect of nc/NC. I can see how some people will not feel safe posting to the discussion when they feel chastised for it. I think your narrow focus is a great one, but it’s just not realistic to expect people to stick to it and not add additional thoughts about nc/NC or just post those additional thoughts.
My Testimony
I did not use No Contact in the beginning other than for a brief period about 4 months after Bomb Drop that was a limited period of time for me to get some space for my healing. I initiated this boundary at the recommendation of my mentor—the psychic I was seeing for my counseling.
My only use of it after that was much later (3 years after bomb Drop) when I set it as a consequence for his continuing to have a relationship with the alienator: As long as you are with her, you cannot be with me at all—No Contact. This had an exit, I told him he was allowed to contact me when he left her.
But honestly, I knew what I was doing was working well before the three year mark. I am one who maintained contact at what would likely be considered a high level. My MLCer was a Clinging Boomerang (I wrote the description based on him). But maybe the big difference was that I was not the Pursuer in our relationship even before Bomb Drop; I was the Distancer so our dynamics were gender backwards and one of his complaints—it was valid—was that I neglected him. So to have a strict no contact or take to the level of a boundary would have been more of the same and confirmed his need to leave me.
The 180 List needs to be specific to each situation and for me having more contact was a 180. This is not typical!!! So I am not saying do what I did and it will be like some magic formula; the opposite is more likely true, for most people it will fail—one reason being due to the Pursuit-Distance dynamics.
Of course I cannot give testimony to how it would have played out had I gone No Contact and held a boundary for a long period in the beginning; maybe it would have worked as well. What I can say is that not going nc/NC worked and it worked quickly and quite well.
As for Paving the Way… I need to write more on this for a post, so I just want to be brief and putting it here will have a record for what I might want to expand on later. Paving the Way continues to be a heavily misunderstood concept. It is not about any specific actions or inactions that might make up Paving the Way for any individual situation. It seems to me that many are defining Paving the Way as being about the things I did—all my contact and activities with my MLCer. In general Paving the Way is Love they Neighbour—be kind, be gracious, be polite because it is a good way to treat others.
It can include time together as it did for me, but that is what worked in my situation. DO WHAT WORKS! Do not define what works based on what worked for anyone else. Go ahead and use it as experiments to determine what might work for you, but remember that experiments are just that and approach them with an open mind and no expectations.
I went NC very early on (though not entirely NC since we have a son who was 4 at the time). First of all it was recommended to me by a guy at Divorce Remedy, whom I spoke to perhaps 2 weeks after BD. He told me to quit being my H's mother, break co-dependency and leave him alone. It became an obsession with me to do things "right" so I followed this advice.
No matter what people say here, or how controversial it may be (I know at the time I stepped on some people's feet) I remain ABSOLUTELY convinced that going NC is one of the reasons my H got out of his MLC, left his "Amor", and came back home to me. Maybe it's just like some moms of autistic children who say that there's a window of opportunity right at the beginning to pull your child out of autism. However my H was fully cooked when he returned, no doubt about it.
It is now 4 years later and we are still together and very happy.
That's my result of going NC (or close to it) early on.
There is a difference between No Contact and no contact—capitalization versus no caps—and yet there may be no difference as well. The difference is that No Contact is a boundary and as a boundary it is something you communicate to your MLCer. You could not have contact for months or years and so effectively be in a no contact and yet have never had a communication about setting it as a boundary. So let me try to be very clear: My recommendation against No Contact as a main tool for general use in the new LBS Toolbox is go No Contact the boundary. In general I advise that LBSs not initiate contact; if there MLCer also follows this, then there could be no contact between them and yet no No Contact boundary.
So according to my definition of the terms Evas was Dark—and right at the margin of Dark and No Contact but not in No Contact; Dim and Dark are not boundaries and thus require no communication about them.
Why do I advise against it as a boundary?
There are a few reasons, but for the sake of brevity, let me give this one. When you set a boundary you are giving your MLCer rules and as we all know, rules are made to be broken! MLCers test rules and if they break through this feeds them—it especially feeds Monster. You have shown them an area of weakness and they will pounce and escalate, poking you more and more. This just makes it more difficult for you—especially if you are a new LBS. One reason that boundaries need to start small in the beginning (Rule-Boundaries, not Respect-Boundaries) is because a weakened LBS is not strong enough to maintain them. Set boundaries that you are going to be able to maintain and as you become stronger, you boundaries can be stronger and stricter as well.
Whether they come back or not is not the issue. The real issue here is how much: self respect, dignity, and self confidence do you really want to give up? In the end, just like I wouldn't respect the Ex if he came back on his knees groveling. How much do you think they have for us when we're first bomb dropped? Short answer: none.
A good point, but subjective as well. The don’t you respect yourself/have self-respect comment is common from outsiders who are often really saying that they don’t respect you for what you are doing. I have a blog post on this topic, but the blog is up-and-down this week due to issues with the host that are not yet resolved, so I can’t even go there or to my dashboard and give you the link.
So another good question and point you made is about what the MLCer will think of your actions/inactions? Will they respect you for them?
Well, just as with outsiders, they don’t get it and we still need to choose our actions based on our Code of Self-Respect and not on the MLCer’s twisted views. Easier said than done, but basically when you approach a situation with empowerment and confidence people can read that and are less likely to question it—even MLCers. And when they do your confidence is able to handle it. The problems arise when you are not confident enough to withstand the challenges of others—MLCers and others. People have deer in the headlights radar.
I think that way too much time is spent focusing on the MLCer in the beginning. It's when you can step back and really take a more objective look, that's when you get a hold of yourself. Then you can deal with all the chaos and destruction in a more constructive way.
Absolutely.
Though focusing on the MLCer is part of what a person is going to do in the initial stages of their trauma, and even though it might not be productive, it is normal for many and likely most and we need to accept this as part of an individual’s process. Objectivity is also difficult or perhaps next to impossible when a person is not detached—objectivity is a result of Detachment.
It can be frustrating for those ahead who know what it takes to get through that early garbage. We want to help others just get through that quickly by advising them what worked for us and how we would have been better off had we done those things that worked sooner. But the thing is, often we did those things when we did them as part of experience and learning. Sometimes we have to learn what doesn’t work or learn by getting burned—hopefully just singed a bit.
There’s got to be a place of balance. Many get stuck in the place of focusing on the MLCer and use their process to healing as an excuse for lingering there. So when do we accept the process and when do we push them a bit harder because they are stuck—and someone who is stuck typically does not know it and may deny it. The challenge is that this varies from person to person; I think it is likely a function of the level of self-confidence and empowerment they had going in—before or at Bomb Drop. Those who were higher on the scale then are likely to be ready to be pushed sooner and may not need the pushing because they may be more likely to recognize what they need to do.
I believe that you have a better chance of them coming back if you go NC. No interference seems to be a beacon for them.
As a general statement I believe this is dangerous—at this point.
You have explained this discussion as basically for research purposes and would like testimony from LBSs as to what worked best in their situations. If that is the case, it seems too early in your research to draw a conclusion.
The sometimes sad thing with this forum, is that there's this impression that there's a set of viewpoints that seem like they're written in stone. Well, nothing ever is.
I think that unfortunately some people are attempting to etch their viewpoints onto clay tablets and bake them. This is why those people get stuck—writing in stone leads to becoming stuck.
Evas, you were not No Contact, you were no contact. Like you said, you have a son, so there was some contact.
Anjae, I made that clear. I wasn't aware that there was a lower case "no contact". Seriously, you HAD to point that out?
Yes. We try to make a habit of pointing this out because it is such a misunderstood concept and so we try to clarify the differences or at least that there are differences. It’s not meant as a correction of your words, but as a message to the other LBSs reading along.
No Contact vs no contact? Are you really trying to make this one fly? I'm trying to get people to critically think for a change. Distractions hamper that. So does conformance. I see a lot of pressure to conform on this forum. That's a shame, because it makes the forum inauthentic.
Oh just stop with the criticisms! She’s following my examples in highlighting the differences. It’s about defining terms and I have given specific definitions for No Contact and explained how it differs. It’s only important because when we are consistent with how we use the terms we can help others to understand the concepts. Defining my terms is something my mother drilled into me; let others know how you are using a word. I was once told I was a narcissist because I defined my terms; I found it laughable and call BS. Anjae is simply trying to explain how The Hero’s Spouses uses the terms no contact versus No Contact.
Your stance is pretty clear: you will not be swayed. And, I highly doubt you will sway any of us to your line of thinking on this thread either. Your agreement points are weak, and you really haven't supplied any other evidence than one article to support your claim. That's not enough. But, that's for another thread. Maybe you could start one: NC vs Contact. I'm sure you'll get lots of responses. Post it, and let's see what happens.
It’s not her stance; it’s mine. And this is not a popularity contest to see who can get the most responses. That’s just rude.
Moving far away is also not going to bring a MLCer out of their crisis.
This is untrue. I haven't looked it up now, but I know I've read about "traumas" that can shock an MLCer out of the tunnel. A partner/spouse/X moving far away may well be such a trauma.
I often feel unwelcome at this forum exactly for this reason, this nitpicking, this "know-it-all". My views and ideas may be different but that doesn't mean they aren't valid. For me it doesn't really matter much, I have my success story, but maybe my story (and many other similar stories) can help people out there.
I am sorry you feel this is nitpicking. It is not meant as such and this seems an example of different people making different interpretations or assumptions regarding someone’s words or style and how we cannot please everyone.
I don’t have statistics to support one view or the other, only my own opinion based on my experiences—personal and observed. I agree completely with what Anjae said as a general statement—not as an absolute since exceptions typically exist. Anjae did not use an absolute modifier and on the flip side she did not modify her words to highlight them as being for the general rather than specific situation. Was it necessary to do that? Opinions will differ.
I think people should not be shy about sharing what works and even questioning accepted advice on this site. In many ways it may be helpful if people do experiment.
I am in full agreement and I have always advocated experimenting. Years ago I even had an article calling this testing a Lab Experiment. I don’t think it is up anymore because the content itself just felt sub par, but the idea of it as an experiment is something I’ve always put forth.
Actually, My2Girls, pretty much everyone in the board who is reconnecting or reconciled never used No Contact. They may had no contact for a little while, but never went No Contact.
This makes absolutely no sense. The question was asked of us who went NC. You obviously didn't. There aren't that many reconciliation stories on HS. There are far more on other forums of people who did go NC and moved on.
Well she’s not really correct about those of us who are reconciled having never used No Contact, but I think I know what she means. We did not use it asa long-term tool that we applied early on and kept up. And that might not make sense without the full story. As a Moderator she is privy to what I write on the mod board. In preparation for my most recent article about No Contact I PM’d all the LBSs on this forum with Dark Purple thread—a very small number—and asked them about contact. Of the few only a few responded, so it’s not something with much meaning, but of those who responded, none applied it in a big or long-term way, if they did use it, they did so more like I did. I personally had the imporession that they also credited the continuing contact with playing a part in keeping the door open to lead to reconciliation. I think Evas was in the group I PM’d and she kindly responded. Anjae may be thinking of this since I mentioned it at the mod board—and maybe in the post. What I found more interesting was that every single responder said their MLCer was a Clinging Boomerang.
Evas, you aren't the only one.
There are several people on this forum who will pick a fight for a differing point of view. Anjae, I'm calling you out on this one. It's not the first time I've had to either. Your responses have been nothing more than nit picking for the sake of argument.
Most of your arguments have been at best distractions.
No more than pointing it out is a distraction…and there I’ve distracted now too.
Perhaps Anjae’s comments seem like nitpicking to some, but anyone who thinks that is her intention does not know Anjae. Her comments are a lot more neutral than you are taking them.
This is about research to get to a conclusion that hasn't been investigated extensively: is NC or is it not a viable solution for some MLCers? That's the real issue here.
And the research question is great—quite valid. The problem is that some of us do not know what you mean when you refer to NC or even no contact—caps or not if you are not making a distinction between the boundary and not having contact without the boundary which requires communication.
You personally described it as a boundary in your situation since you communicated it. Perfect and understandable. Make your research criteria very clear. Anjae looks at situations with logic—to the extreme as she herself has said. In a research setting this is beneficial for what you are trying to do. Instead of seeing her as being nitpicky, think of her motives as trying to help your research by making sure each response is on the appropriate page with what they mean with the words no contact—capped versus uncapped. I know it would be less confusing in some ways of the actual words were different and yet at the same time it might add a new or different confusion since how it plays out is the same—not having contact.
You want conformity…
When you Assume you make an a$$ out of you and me and that is an assumption.
I agree with Searching4Answers about the tone of this thread. Not liking the tone does not mean someone should just not read it. Sometimes a person wants to change the tone—to something nicer. Maybe they appreciate the topic as it was proposed and don’t want to miss out on it and yet the tone—comes in as a distraction. Not liking the content is a different matter from not liking the tone.
We are speaking about our thoughts and issues. Guess what? They don't align with RC.
Well, they certainly don’t seem misaligned with my ideas! I have no issue with no contact—no caps and believe in No Contact—boundary if it works for you and suits you or is what you need for you. My concern is making it a general or blanket recommendation for all incoming LBSs—especially the boundary. As for the lower cap no contact, I probably just talk about it more as being Dark and getting really close to the margin of the No Contact border, so I don’t use the term as often with lower caps—probably to avoid confusion, but it’s not in my thought process like that. I just think if it as Dark—really Dark. When it is a boundary it means you will not answer back when your MLCer attempts to make contact with exceptions like emergencies.
My3Girls, from your description your application of the boundary was textbook. You use the boundary and even get closer to the Dark-No Contact margin more often than I recommend doing it, but it’s what worked for you and you see that it has worked for others. That’s perfect then. My experience has been different. If I am going to choose something I wish people will do that is in alignment with me: DO WHAT WORKS. The beauty of that is that it is open to what works for each individual.
Well, I see I hit a nerve. For everyone else who would like to continue the discussion at hand, and to dismiss the hijacking attempt, let's continue.
I saw no hijacking attempt. People are going to respond to what is posted and that is what Searching4Answers did. From where I am reading it feels like you are the one doing the things you are accusing others of doing.
MLC can be so varied as to almost be a spectrum disorder. To this point, I would actually think a great benefit to this site would be to rank MLCers like hurricanes. Some have low durations, surges, and damage whereas others are the opposite.
;D ;D ;D
Rug, Evas, who has been posting to this thread, is reconciled. So are RCR and Stayed. As well as BBhelp http://mlcforum.theherosspouse.com/index.php?topic=8080.0 ;F inding Hope http://mlcforum.theherosspouse.com/index.php?topic=8174.0 ; Sada http://mlcforum.theherosspouse.com/index.php?topic=8151.0 ; hopeandfaith http://mlcforum.theherosspouse.com/index.php?topic=7200.0 or NotGivingUpOnU http://mlcforum.theherosspouse.com/index.php?topic=2277.0 just to name a few.
There is lower case no contact that is quite different from No Contact. That difference is RCR creation, not mine. I asked RCR to come by an explain the difference.
The rest of us have moved on passed this. I would suggest that do too. You are holding up progress. We are now moving on, whether you want to or not. Are you on or out?
Good Lord! Really? Anjae responds to a post from above in the thread and gets criticized for not moving past? And you are the one complaining of distractions?
I love that there are many long timers on this site who have so much wisdom to share and do so graciously. I know that newbies spend a lot of time on here and soak up as much information as possible. What I would like to say to newbies is this: You are where you are and if you can't (or don't want to) go no contact, don't. If you want to, then do it.. Later on, if you change your mind either way, accept that you made the best decision you could at the time. Acceptance of all of your decisions is key to your healing. {Emphasis added by RCR] Wishing you had done something different early on is not going to help you. You can't really 'pay it forward' and save others from making your perceived mistakes either (if it did, child rearing would be a whole lot easier ;D) Don't beat yourself up if you read something and feel you 'should' be doing something different. You will do it when you're ready and if it's right for you.
Beautifully said.
Okay the research question. I think we need to be very careful because I know RainbowGal’s story and I don’t see her results as supporting what feels like a more blanket recommendation of No Contact. Actually she used it just as I did and at the same points in the crisis. So how it is applied is very important. UGH, this could be a much more advanced piece of research then. It just feels like either people (like me) are taking the question as being about a general application starting near the beginning and then we are basing results on that. Maybe they are not doing that…I don’t know.
RainbowGal says that No Contact was instrumental in bringing her MLCer home. But I feel what is important is her understanding if what that No Contact was—how and when it was applied. She did not just make it a boundary near the beginning and stay there. So what are we talking about when we ask about nc or NC? A longer term applied from early on and maintained? Or a tool used occasionally and at brief times—which may be made long-term based on the initial response/reaction of the MLCer and the situation.
Was it instrumental in bringing Chuck home? I think it was important, but it did not have the same power it did for RainbowGal because Chuck knew what it was about; he knew there was a way for him to exit and that when he did that, I would be there to reconcile with him. What I had to do was get him more scared in the end that I might change my mind regarding my Stand.
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Like I said for those of you who want to continue the thread without these distractions, let's continue. Let's continue our quest for results, and not forget that that's the only thing on this thread that's consequential for our purposes of research. And keep in mind, this is also a social experiment in if early NC does or doesn't work. I'm thinking of setting up a poll when it's over. You will all get a chance to vote once the thread has run it's course.
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Kikki, Your take on NC was interesting. I'd like to know a little bit more. What did you mean? Specifically, do you feel it's a tactic?
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Having experienced this more than once, and with almost opposite ends of the MLC severity spectrum, I too thought my instinctual response of self protection and removing myself from my MLCer's reach, would make him think about what he was missing.
It probably did. His level of cray cray was less severe last time. He stayed with friends of ours not far from our home and within days was badgering me to be able to come home.
I remember him saying afterwards that there was 'something very wrong' with him because he 'didn't feel any empathy at all for either me or his EA' during that time.
A distinct contrast to his long term screwy thinking this time.
I have read many times where people think they have managed to control the crisis by their behaviours and forcibly trying to encourage others to do the same because they are convinced it too will 'work'. That's what I think is floored thinking. If you haven't witnessed this level of cray cray, then you're in for a shock if you ever do.
This time, what 'works' was being able to survive financially a highly explosive disorder or dis-ease (as RCR would say).
NOTHING this time seems to have made any long term impact on him.
He has been as determined to live his new life, as he has been to have me be a secret part of it.
He knew he had me between a rock and a hard place because of the finances. He told me on many occasions that he knew I let him near me because I was financially vulnerable due to our business and the boys. As RCR suggests, I was as kind, gracious and polite as I was able to be.
He was very open about all sorts of things to start with - his confusion, how the OW was enormously selfish, how their relationship was tumultuous, how he disliked her family immensely. I would listen with open mouthed horror to start with, until I did not want to hear any more about her. I started to walk out of the room if he mentioned her at all. It took him ages to get the message. He said he would have to bring the OW to our house for afternoon tea ??? >:(
He frequently apologised, realised he had had a break-down, would get help, then in the next few hours change tack and 'there's nothing wrong with me Kikki', 'we just make each other feel bad' would come out of his mouth again.
That all changed (his openness about the OW, and his ambivalence towards her) at around the 3.5 year mark post BD and he appeared determined to stick with his new life.
When I managed to get him to agree to a settlement (of which he was the distinct financial winner), he was very angry with me for quite a few months. We occasionally need to have contact due to a few lasting ties, and he finally seems to be polite again. I guess this may wax and wane.
An old friend of mine who had this happen to her 10 years ago, is convinced that he will already be deeply regretting what he did, but will feel too stuck in his new life, to do anything about it.
She asked me what I am going to do when he comes knocking on my door in a few years time. She hopes I don't take him back. I am not convinced he would ever do that now, even though I couldn't imagine him NOT doing it until recently.
So much trauma, and so much change has been forced on me and the boys, I can't imagine how any of us would ever integrate back together now.
I guess I don't trust that this wouldn't happen again, because of what I have experienced.
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Kikki, Why did you subject yourself to those kinds of conversations? And how do you feel about NC now? Do you feel like it may have saved you a lot of the pain and anguish that have you have most definitely suffered? If I'm reading this right, you are now divorced? Is he now a vanisher or a clinger?
If you had to do it all over again, would you change how you handled the situation? And what would you have changed?
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Firstly, my priority was to try to convince him to get the psychological help he clearly needed. He went to a few psychologists and a psychiatrist, but pretty much ran away each time.
In hindsight, and knowing what I now know, I would phone the crisis team immediately when he had his first psychotic episode.
Do I think it would have changed the course of the crisis? I don't know, but my suspicions are no, they wouldn't have because a very determined OW was involved.
I described a snapshot of the many years. If you have access to the private side, my threads are on there if you want to read further.
Mainly, we talked about the business and the children. He would sometimes throw in how he was feeling about things.
We had a business to run, and I knew I kept him somewhat stable, and we relied on him as much as he relied on me business wise.
My second priority was to survive financially.
As I mentioned, I asked him not to keep hovering around me to protect myself when it all became too much.
We had three early teens together, a business together and worked together, so NC was impossible and he was so completely out of control.
Any time I said he could no longer appear at the house whenever he felt like it and had to leave me alone, he would monster and cause some trauma that affected the boys and me financially.
Involving lawyers who baited me, but refusing to resolve anything. I went as dark as I could, and very rarely contacted him unless it was essential due to the kids or business.
I do not live in the US and our laws do very little to protect the LBS and the children.
He divorced me nearly two years ago now, with zero settlement, after he managed to steal the company and my livelihood from me. He divorced so that I would not be able to make a claim on the house that he and the OW bought and I did not have the money to fight his illegal actions with the company.
During our settlement negotiation he stated 'it was a shame we had divorced and he didn't want another man to gain from what he had worked hard for years for'. More cray cray.
He continued to cling, right up until after our settlement in the new year.
I sent him the wheel of abuse, and said that he owed the boys and myself an apology one day.
He still clung.
A few weeks later, I told him I was applying for a backdated child support review because we both knew he had lied about his income, when I was left with none. I was granted a significant amount of money, and it was at that point that he stopped clinging.
He has not contacted me since. It has been me who has contacted him twice in that time to tidy up loose ends around the business.
I have asked him on multiple occasions to delete our combined work email, and he refuses to do so. He changed the log in details so I have not had access for a few years.
This also coincides with our eldest son (22 years) living with him during this time, and our second son is now working with him. Our eldest son moved universities and as his dad lives 5 mins away from the university, has chosen to live there. I think he desperately needed some Dad time after not really having a father for the past 6 years.
The boys went no contact with him too for many many years, but they have pretty much given up and have accepted they have a very un-confident, broken man for a father, who hides behind a very successful business (and who has done the financial dirty on their mother). They tolerate the OW, at best.
Our youngest son continues to ignore her completely on the rare occasions he sees his dad.
So, to answer your question, we haven't had any contact that he's initiated since the end of March this year. Prior to that, I saw or heard from him multiple times each week.
No, I wouldn't do anything differently, apart from phoning the crisis team.
I did what I did to survive a very out of control situation. We live in one of the most expensive cities in the world, and as I said, what I did, I did to survive for both myself and my children.
It also meant that the boys didn't have to spend a single night with him until they felt ready to, which has only been this year for two of them.
My third priority was to have my children the least traumatised by this chaos as possible.
While I failed in getting him the help he certainly needed (that really is up to him whether he chooses to do that or not), I didn't fail on the other two.
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Kikki, I'm so sorry that things turned out this way for you. We do take it for granted here in the states the laws protecting spouses and children in divorces. Especially in certain no fault states. Thanks for sharing, your honesty is refreshing. And enlightening. A great perspective from the paving the way line of thinking.
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Thanks My3girls, but I will be okay. I do very much wish we had US laws because then things would be very different, but to quote just about every MLCer on the planet 'it is what it is'.
This just appeared in my FB feed. I think it sums it up well.
'Having a soft heart in a harsh world is courageous, not weak'.
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It's interesting how many of you, if you had to do it all over again, would have gone NC early.
For those that wish that they had, what have you learned from your experience? How would you have done things differently? What would you have done to facilitate NC in your personal situation? And, at what point would you have gone NC if you could do it all over again? A timeline would be helpful.
Do you feel that you would have been better able to cope with your situation more effectively and detach faster? Was interacting with them detrimental to your ability to cope and detach? Lastly, what advice would you give someone who is considering choosing to go NC for self perservation? And, do you think it would have helped with your own personal well-being?
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Good for you Kikki sending him the wheel of abuse. Something everyone should take a look at.
Lots of really good questions My3. I may get into those more later.
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'Having a soft heart in a harsh world is courageous, not weak'.
Yes!
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Going NC has now taken on a new meaning. He's using the kids to try to keep a connection.
I've taken a hard line and now I've told him that we can only have contact through the mail ( postal service not email ). This is an extreme boundary. I need the peace in my life at this point.
Has anyone else had to use this as a boundary to continue to heal, and move on with their personal journey?
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No..I had to threaten to have the ex arrested a little more than three years ago that was the only way I could stop him from contacting me at any level and for me to have any peace and work on healing.
Should I have done this at BD and D 6 years ago? Threatened to have him arrested and gone NC? I had plenty of incidents that existed where I could have and should have to save myself from the abuse, the trauma, and the insanity.
I bought into it was an MLC when it wasn't. I had too much compassion for him.
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Hey In it,
How's the healing coming? Mine is still acting like he's the victim and making things difficult. It's all I can do to keep my sanity in check when it comes to his nonsense.
I'm glad I went NC early on, I think that things would have been worse. For now, I think that he's not dealing with this new boundary well, and his triangulation with the kids is starting to become a daily thing.
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I'm doing ok..I still have those days.Thanks for asking.I'm laughing more..finding joy in small things..using a" go with the flow" kind of attitude. If I encounter a lot of negativity in a person or situation I will avoid it to protect me. Still working on regulating my emotions. Sometimes I'm feeling I take life a bit too seriously.
I simply will not let what happen to me define me. And I simply will not take anybody's $h!te.
I really don't think anyone can go wrong with NC ASAP. You are protecting yourself..not punishing them.It isn't going to be fatal if we are not in contact with them.
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I really don't think anyone can go wrong with NC ASAP. You are protecting yourself..not punishing them.It isn't going to be fatal if we are not in contact with them.
I agree, there's too much room for emotional/verbal abuse with them at the beginning. They probably are using almost all 13 types of abuse at some point. The damage and destruction aren't easy to endure, and BD is devastating enough. They definitely employ the power and control wheel throughout the first stages at minimum.
I consider myself lucky, the only one of my 3 girls not speaking to me is my OD. She "likes" the new girlfriend ( she doesn't judge her for having a boyfriend old enough to be her youngest sister's father, or her drinking/drug use, and her out of control lifestyle choices [ all the destructive ones] ). My younger 2 don't. Going NC early on pissed off my OD, but she is now talking more to my younger 2. She's admitted that he's not a good dad at least, and doesn't see him much, but talks a lot with his GF.
The GF is in her 50's and still running around like she's in her 20's. The ideal MLC partner. She even tried to convince my MD to go to college where they live, and to live with them. You really can't make this *hit up. She actually honed in on my MD the whole time they were visiting with their dad. My MD said it was like talking to another teen: an annoying, fake one at that. What an impression this chick has made.
At any rate, he doesn't seem to like the idea of all communication coming through only to my physical mailbox stance. He told the girls that I'm not talking to him, not true. I'm refusing to communicate with him in a way that he can use to initiate any type of arguments. That's been the purpose of most of his "communication". I'm not allowing myself to be used for his "monstering" so he's now telling the younger ones that I'm not talking to him. Again, NC is having some affect, not to influence his MLC, but too remind him that we are divorced. His choice, he wanted his new life, and I'm giving it to him without my presence in any way shape or form. Limited, time restricted communication will be something that will make him have to think about how he comes at me from now on.
Going NC early has saved me a lot of time, and helped me to be able to do what I needed to do for me and my younger girls early, without interference from him. It really helped in my case, he would've have kept up all this adolescent behavior at mine and my kids expense if I hadn't. I haven't had to deal with any nonsense with him coming and leaving when he pleased ( I wasn't willing to tolerate putting my kids or myself through that ). It was easy since he left. Anyone with a MCLer still living at home, just hold on, don't let it get to you. It's not you, it's them. Dim and Dark is what worked best for me when he had his 1st BD back in 2012 while he was still living at home. He wasn't cheating them, just trying to leave. No, I didn't try to stop him.
I really believe that NC should be a consequence, not a weapon. It was for me and my kids, not to affect him. Period. It still is, now he's trying to use the kids as a connection. They're aren't putting up with it either. So, now he'll have to do some serious thinking about if he wants to maintain a relationship with them. I'm refusing to let him have one with me. I'm moving on no matter what the outcome, and I refuse to be an anchor. He needs to get through this knowing that he's on his own. Period. No more games, and no more looking back to see if I'm still there. It's time to grow up, and I can't do that for him.
The best way to play the game, is not to play. I took my ball and went home.
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I agree, there's too much room for emotional/verbal abuse with them at the beginning. They probably are using almost all 13 types of abuse at some point. The damage and destruction aren't easy to endure, and BD is devastating enough. They definitely employ the power and control wheel throughout the first stages at minimum.
And I totally agree.
The only way to win with someone this toxic (MLCer or whoever) is not to play.
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Can anyone give me practical advice on going no contact with a live at home mlc?
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It isn't easy if you are still living with them.Is there a way for you to get out more? Spend time with other family members or friends?
IMHO at the very least you need a break from the day to day living with them.
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Hi Becoming_Simply,
I use the NOT TO CONTACT ME Boundary instead. Unfortunately for my H it seems like it's more of an invitation to come to me. Maybe you will have better luck with it.
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Hi Becoming,
I would go to work, go out alone, and visit family. There were many days where I would not come home until after she fell asleep. It's important to remember, no matter what you do, if they want to invade your space, they are going too invade your space. Good Luck.
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I agree with Watcher.
I tried to move into another bedroom..that didn't work as the behavior would just ramp up.I sent a list by email of boundaries -that didn't work. At one point I was being followed all over the house.
The ex hadn't worked in years and at that point in time I could not find a job.
The stress level was through the roof.