Midlife Crisis: Support for Left Behind Spouses
Archives => Archived Topics => Topic started by: Airmid on October 27, 2016, 11:36:53 AM
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Rollercoasterrider's latest blog post:
Reconciliation: If You Stand, Will Your MLCer Return?
http://loveanyway.theherosspouse.com/standing-and-divorce/reconciliation_will-your-mlcer-return/ (http://loveanyway.theherosspouse.com/standing-and-divorce/reconciliation_will-your-mlcer-return/)
October 27, 2016
A guarantee does not exist for reconciliation and right now, more situations end in divorce than in reconciliation. There are still reconciliation stories and the forum is filled with success stories because reconciliation and being successful are not mutually exclusive. For your hope, my husband Chuck came home and we have since adopted 3 children and are foster parents to an infant as well. Reconciliation is not impossible, but even if you Stand perfectly, your MLCer may not choose to reconcile with you—that will not be your fault! I am not trying to destroy your hope in saying that; what I am trying to do is give you a dose of reality as it is now. Go into this with your eyes wide open.
In the beginning, Stand as a Grace Period to let yourself heal before making a decision. After a Grace Period, make your own choice about what to do, Stand for your marriage and choose your terms for a possible reconciliation knowing and accepting reality or choose to stop Standing; the choice is yours!
Are there things you can do to improve your chances of reconciling? What might or might not improve the odds toward reconciliation?
Time
There are some who have this idea that if you just stay the course your MLCer will eventually come out of MLC and return.
Reconciliation is not a stage of MLC; it’s not the main thing that happens when an MLCer wakes up and realizes what they have done.
The passage of time does not carry some magical meaning or formula. Your MLCer will not simply come out of their crisis someday and want to come home.
Consider the reconciliations you know about, how much time was there from Bomb Drop to Reconciliation? Most reconciliations happen in the early years. That is not to say that they do not happen later, but the odds go down with time.
Waiting Patiently
Your MLCer is not more likely to return home simply because you wait and wait and wait for years and years—or even if you don’t spend that time waiting. Though patience is important, waiting is not a method that will get you to your Big Goal. Victims and stuck people wait. Life will pass you by while you wait. Standing is not still; Being is still; Standing is active and about living. Unfortunately, people do Stand by waiting rather than by continuing to live a full and joyous life—and yes, I do understand and accept that recovery to an active and joyous life takes time, but it is not supposed to take forever.
Healing and Personal Empowerment
Marriages do not reconcile—at least not to successful stability—with a betrayed spouse who has not healed and become stronger. Marriage is not about two people completing each other! A secure marriage is built on two complete individuals coming together to share each other’s lives; being whole is the job of the individual. Each person will heal on their own timeline and recovery is unique to each individual, but some people use that as their excuse for remaining stuck and failing or refusing to heal. Pull yourself together, stand up and take responsibility for your recovery. The faster you become strong, the faster you become an attractive force.
Healing improves the odds of reconciliation.
Healing leads to positive change.
I want to be sensitive to your individual path to healing. This is a place in need of a Tough-Tender balance because too Tender may lead to coddling and enabling an LBS to remain in the early stages where you become stuck. Too Tough and I could alienate an LBS who may then refuse further guidance or I could push them too fast for their present abilities which can damage self-esteem.
Do the odds for reconciliation increase with an LBS who detaches and heals faster? MLC has a timeline of its own, but will an LBS who detaches and heals quickly, accepting their own Mirror-Work, inspire an MLCer to do the same? Don’t get me wrong, healing is important for you; the benefits toward reconciliation are secondary, but maybe that is what will motivate some of you to detach and heal. If what I said above is true and the odds of marital reconciliation go down with time, it would seem prudent to take your personal healing and health seriously now.
Please understand, healing will not guarantee reconciliation.
You can do everything perfectly and your spouse may still not want to return to your marriage, but it does improve the odds because healing is a requirement for a healthy and stable reconciliation. It’s also the thing you need to do if you choose not to Stand–so Standing or not what you need to being doing is the same. This MLC marriage crisis thing is not your fault and neither is resolving it: it is not within your control. But your healing, that is within your control! Healing is empowering; there is no downside.
Education
Identify the problem. This can take a while. In the moments, days, weeks and maybe even months after Bomb Drop you may have searched for a purpose or reason. What has happened to my loving partner? Did we have problems that were this serious in our marriage? What is going on? Why is he/she doing this feeling this way? Who is that madman in my husband’s/wife’s body? These are the questions you ask over and over as you try to understand and make sense of this shock. They grip you and send you off on tangents as you find something that fits pieces, without quite fitting everything.
Is he a narcissist?
Is this an exit affair?
Is she right, did we have a bad marriage?
Now that you have identified the problem—midlife crisis— you finally have something to learn about that may help your situation move forward by educating yourself just enough to answer your basic questions: what’s happening, what does it mean, why is this happening, what can I do…?
Then stop! Or redirect more energy toward your personal education or learning and your own Mirror-Work rather than midlife crisis, because focusing on the latter could keep you attached to the situation and your MLCer and prevent you from progressing forward in a healthy and positive manner.
So which is it, does education improve the odds of reconciliation, have no effect or decrease the odds?
It depends on where you focus your learning. Education can be helpful because it can lead to understanding which can enable empathy. An MLCer typically does some terrible things that will hurt you deeply. Understanding the psychology behind this can help you to continue to apply the Unconditionals. Education is also beneficial in that having some answers allows you to stop obsessing over not knowing and redirect focus back onto yourself. But it can work against reconciliation if you fail to focus more of your energy toward your Self and instead keep your energy focused on midlife crisis and your MLCer.
Mirror-Work
This is related to and part of healing. You need to heal your broken heart from the effects of Bomb Drop and Monster. Mirror-Work goes deeper; it is a personal journey exploring you. Focus your energy on you. Your spouse is not and was not your everything and if you feel as though they were your reason for living, please speak with a mental health professional and make yourself a priority.
Mirror-Work honors you by giving you the time to be you and learn what that means—who are you? It takes many forms and has many facets. Healing and detachment are pieces of Mirror-Work, but so are meditating, journaling, dancing, singing, hiking… An important aspect of Mirror-Work is to discover the creator in you. Do this by exploring and playing with different activities. It might seem lavish to spend this time not only on yourself but also doing activities that may seem frivolous because they are fun and may not fit into what you consider functional.
Transitions are about change. Your spouse’s midlife crisis is a transition that has forced you into a transition as well. Mirror-Work is how you learn who you are becoming and who you want to become through this journey. No, it will not guarantee reconciliation, but it will empower you and enable all the Self positives like worth, confidence, esteem, control… and a person with high Self-levels has increased odds for reconciling.
Boundaries
We teach people how to treat us; the boundaries we set let people know what is acceptable to us and what is not. Without boundaries, you open yourself up to abuse—whether intentional or unintentional—because people will take advantage of you.
Boundaries are much more than rules for how to treat a person. They help us to separate who we are from others, giving us personal control over our identity. They enable us to establish limits in relationships, protecting our self-image and thus preserving our integrity. A person without boundaries looks externally to define their value in this world because without boundaries they are unable to tell where others end and they begin; such a person defines themselves as someone’s parent, husband, child, sibling, employee and their persona revolves around meeting that definition.
A person with boundaries is capable of saying no. There is nothing wrong with trying to please others until you do it at your own expense. Put the oxygen mask on yourself first–put your needs first, but Self-First is not only for emergencies. Self-Care is self-preservation and self-maintenance and keeps you energized for giving care to others without feeling exhausted and eventually resentment.
There are no guarantees that a person with strong and loving boundaries will reconcile their marriage, but someone without strong and loving boundaries is not yet a whole and healthy person and thus not able to do the work needed to build a healthy relationship with someone else. Get your relationship with you in alignment first. Having strong and loving boundaries improves the odds of reconciliation.
Agapé and Love Them Home
I love these. The problem is in the application or what you consider these to be. Loving them Home, in theory, is something that improves the odds of reconciliation Unfortunately some people’s idea is more about dismissing a person’s sins with excuses. The same confusion exists regarding forgiveness. Agapé and forgiveness are both unconditional, but that does not mean you should apply them in the absence of rules, boundaries, consequences or accountability. The problem is not with loving them home, it is with the idea that unconditional love means you should not hold your MLCer responsible due to the confused and unstable state of MLC (during which they may be easy prey for an alienator) or they are too fragile to handle the consequences that come with being held accountable. Stop making excuses for your spouse! Or stop making the excuses excusable.
Go back to what I said above: we treat people how to treat us. Failing or refusing to set or maintain boundaries enables a person to avoid Mirror-Work and denies them the opportunity to make amends and repair the damage they have caused. Instead, they may feel entitled and believe there is no damage.
Ironically it is not uncommon for those applying agapé in this manner to also be more judgmental; sometimes vacillating between seeming forgiveness without consequences and resentment, anger and judgment.
Loving them and Standing are not about preserving a home and waiting for them with open arms. Move forward and rebuild your life, becoming an attractive force that may interest and inspire your MLCer to do their own Mirror-Work to catch up. If they do not—someday—become motivated to catch-up, it is not because you failed. If they do become motivated to catch-up and yet are still not interested in reconciling, you still have not failed; they still get to choose.
Loving them home from a distance, where you do not deny them accountability for their actions and are not intruding, controlling or smothering can certainly improve the odds of reconciling.
Reconciliation is Not Guaranteed
You probably already knew that there was not a guarantee of reconciliation, but some of you may not have realized or accepted that the odds are at this time stacked against you. I’d love for us to change that, but let’s face it, that goal goes against society. Those who are the most susceptible to the idea of a guarantee tend to be those who base their Stand on a religious platform. Ask and ye shall receive is not an unlimited promise without conditions. I cannot tell you why God works as he does or how, but I can tell you that no amount of praying or hardship or perfect behavior will give you a guarantee of reconciliation on earth—Heaven is another matter and I have not been granted that level of knowledge or understanding.
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Excellent and such important information!
Thank you.
Phoenix
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I think we all coming here hoping to find the magic bullet to save our marriage. There is no magic bullet, but here are tons of things that can almost guarantee reconciliation will never happen. The articles and suggestions here provide the best opportunity for a positive outcome. That outcome may not mean getting back together, but if you do the work this can be a positive experience in the end. Ultimately we should all strive to support each other and encourage personal growth and development.
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Beautifully said, Dji76.
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Amazing! I agree with every single word.
LBS's, the secret lies within yourselves. Heal yourselves. Then whatever happens... you are ready to be the best you, ever!
Well said RCR... bravo!!!
Hugs Stayed
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Ooops, just saw your response, Dji, well said, this is ALL ABOUT YOU LBS's... this is your gig now! Take back your life. Live life well. You will be amazed at where that will take you.
Hugs Stayed
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Could not AMEN loud enough to this post!
Read it...Re-Read it...and REPEAT. This MLC/LBS journey can and HAS had many happy endings...reconciliation or not. But it is up to us to create that in ourselves.
Thanks Airmid!
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RCR's blog entry coincides with what my mom has observed as a clinical psychologist in Marriage and Family Therapy for the last 30+ years. It also fits hand in glove to where I see things... That is why a few of us decided we needed a new category of "If'er" That is someone (like me) who is not in a hurry to pull any trigger because my focus is on MY healing and MY life.... I realized early into this party that I was not the real me anymore and that I needed to recover me. When that is done to my satisfaction, then I will see what life is going to bring me...(and now come the If's)
IF my MLC'er has done the work she needs to do, and
IF she is still interested in who I have discovered myself to be, and
IF I still find the person that she has become to be appealing, and
IF we are both still unattached and available, and
IF we both decide to re-establish a relationship,
THEN a reconciliation MAY be possible..... As RCR Said, there is NO guarantee that any of those IF's will happen and, even if they DO happen, there is no guarantee that everything will work out in the end.....
But, regardless of the outcome, I will be going forward as a better, more authentic, genuine person who is true to myself and my needs and not willing to compromise myself again for the sake of a relationship.....
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regardless of the outcome, I will be going forward as a better, more authentic, genuine person who is true to myself and my needs and not willing to compromise myself again for the sake of a relationship.....
YES! YES! YES!
Hugs Stayed
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I really like this article!!
I think it’s a wonderful article and applies to many broken marriage situations.
It caters to those who stand for reconciliation.
In some ways I admire that stance in other people - to a degree.
For me, I think the damage is done, and I feel myself moving away from the vision of reconciliation.
At least the vision I've had so far.
I feel it’s a bit wrong to even say that because of my love for Christ who reconciles all things to Himself (and to the Father)
So, then why see only a huge pile of damaged goods with regards to my marriage?
I hold it in such a high esteem. Then why lose sight of reconciliation?
Answer (and this is strictly IMO):
I don’t have to stand for reconciliation to stand for my marriage.
It’s true that I made a promise to my spouse.
I included God in that sacramental promise, but that doesn’t mean the marriage is invulnerable to being broken.
Clearly it is broken, however, I can still maintain my vow to love and honor my spouse despite the unfortunate circumstance of the broken marriage.
I can also make a decision (at the brink of getting a divorce I don’t want) that I can and will be moving on to a new happiness.
I can do this without looking for my happiness in another relationship or person.
I no longer choose to consider myself left behind as I move forward to a better place, an improved “me”, and a deeper spiritual and physical journey.
I know it's very important for people who are thrust into this situation at first to understand themselves in light of being left behind.
It was a description that worked well for me for a while, but I no longer have to identify with it.
I'm moving on, therefore I'm no longer left behind. Someone else is... ;)
I can rediscover a new joy :)
I honestly don’t know what the future holds, I’m open to every-and-all possibility - even reconciliation -imagine the irony in that !
So I’m moving on and I don’t stand waiting for a reconciled marriage.
There’s a life to appreciate and live out the way God would want me to live.
CallingHeart
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Great reminder on what our (LBS) journey is all about. While it was not our choice to have taken this path, we must rely on ourselves to get through it. Thank you HS members for your kindness and encouragement!
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Attach
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I can rediscover a new joy :)
I honestly don’t know what the future holds, I’m open to every-and-all possibility - even reconciliation -imagine the irony in that !
So I’m moving on and I don’t stand waiting for a reconciled marriage.
There’s a life to appreciate and live out the way God would want me to live.
CallingHeart
CAllingHeart - so good to see you so positive.
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I realized early into this party that I was not the real me anymore and that I needed to recover me. When that is done to my satisfaction, then I will see what life is going to bring me.
Couldn't agree more. Healing is about finding your authentic self and reflecting on what you can be - not what you should be and not what you think others think you should be.
Shakespeare said it best " To thine own self - be true."
When you are true to yourself new joys really do come your way and if that includes steps towards reconciliation then so be it ; the LBS has to be one who is strong. emotionally and physically healthy, with good boundaries and a sense of self worth that no MLCer will ever take away again.
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Wonderful post!!!!
Thanks RCR! :)
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Agree with Capri
I am 3+ years in my journey, I am standing for me, certainly not waiting for H to walk back anymore. It took alot of time and this article is perfect on alot of levels, the boundaries made me realise I allow myself to be walked over in the name of keeping the peace, not sure after 54yrs I can change that. However I am happy with who I am, His loss.
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This is a great post!!!
Thunder - Checking in. Have not heard anything from you.
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I absolutely agree that this post is a good reminder that there are no guarantees, and how important Mirror Work is if an LBS is to heal from the damage of BD and move forward in their own fulfilling life.
That becoming healthy is the best thing one can do anything to influence a possible return, if an LBS even wants one day.
Since this is a “discussion” thread, and not a “full agreement” thread, I did want to share how some of the messages in this post landed with me, though.
I thought long and hard about posting this, even slept on it, because in many ways it is easiest to just let it go. Then there's also that niggling thing about teaching others how to treat you....so.....
Even though RCR has stated she is not trying to destroy hope, and I believe that, there are aspects of this post that I did find quite discouraging.
Rollercoasterrider's latest blog post:
“The passage of time does not carry some magical meaning or formula. Your MLCer will not simply come out of their crisis someday and want to come home.
Consider the reconciliations you know about, how much time was there from Bomb Drop to Reconciliation? Most reconciliations happen in the early years. That is not to say that they do not happen later, but the odds go down with time.”
Yes, statistics on marriage separations do support that the number of reconciliations diminish over time.
Yet, when I consider the reconciliations I personally know in RL, the timelines are: 6 years; 7 years; 2 years; 7 months and 18 years.
My observation of the forum suggests that reconciliations at 3 – 5 years seem to be the most common.
So, no, the odds aren’t good.
But I’m not sure how reminding people -- who already know the odds aren’t good -- that the odds aren’t good could be anything but discouraging.
I’m sorry to blunt in making this point, but I can’t imagine telling a friend with a cancer diagnosis, “I don't want to discourage you. But, you know, the odds aren’t good.”
Rollercoasterrider's latest blog post:
“Waiting Patiently
Your MLCer is not more likely to return home simply because you wait and wait and wait for years and years—or even if you don’t spend that time waiting. Though patience is important, waiting is not a method that will get you to your Big Goal. Victims and stuck people wait. Life will pass you by while you wait. Standing is not still; Being is still; Standing is active and about living. Unfortunately, people do Stand by waiting rather than by continuing to live a full and joyous life—and yes, I do understand and accept that recovery to an active and joyous life takes time, but it is not supposed to take forever.”
So, who gets to assess which is which?
By what criteria?
So much of our stories are based on selective snippets that are shared, and viewed through the lens of a reader's perceptions, not the full reality of the writer.
How do you tell the difference between “waiting” and “letting time do its work”?
How do you tell the difference between “waiting” and “living a full, content and quiet life”?
Who determines “active”? And the degree of “active” that is “healthy”?
These are sincere questions; I’m not being facetious.
Reconciliation is Not Guaranteed
You probably already knew that there was not a guarantee of reconciliation, but some of you may not have realized or accepted that the odds are at this time stacked against you. I’d love for us to change that, but let’s face it, that goal goes against society. Those who are the most susceptible to the idea of a guarantee tend to be those who base their Stand on a religious platform. Ask and ye shall receive is not an unlimited promise without conditions. I cannot tell you why God works as he does or how, but I can tell you that no amount of praying or hardship or perfect behavior will give you a guarantee of reconciliation on earth—Heaven is another matter and I have not been granted that level of knowledge or understanding.
Yah, the odds are stacked against us.
We know.
But where is the evidence to support this "susceptibility"?
And why is it even a point of conversation?
I've been here for over two years now. I've seen many members make it clear that their faith is an important consideration for their stand.
I haven’t noticed anyone suggesting having faith is a guarantee their spouse will come back.
A source of hope and comfort? Yes.
A motivation? Yes
A guarantee? I haven't seen it.
In my opinion, it is possible that individuals with a "name it and claim it"/ "ask and it shall be given" orientation might be most likely to believe reconciliation is possible against seeming impossible odds, or after an inordinate amount of time.
But this is true of adherents to the Law of Attraction and similar affirmation/visualization beliefs as it is to those with a “faith platform”.
I would actually argue that people with “faith platforms” are the least susceptible to the idea of a guarantee for the very reason that those with a “faith platform” are most likely to believe life is outside of one's own direct control.
And that even though praying, kind behaviour and acceptance of hardship are choices that guide a personal standard for living, these actions are not a guarantee regarding what will happen while you are living.
In my opinion, there’s an inherent contradiction on this site that we all deal with one way or another, every single day.
The MLC process takes what – 2 to 7 years? 3 to 10 years?
We are told to use the gift of time.
That watching timelines is not helpful.
So, the longer this goes on, is it more likely-- or less likely -- that MLC might end and there might be a reconciliation?
Nobody knows.
Or, God only knows.
I don’t see that the people with a ‘religious platform’ who believe 'God only knows' express that as a guarantee.
Nor is one’s faith any more -- or any less -- a legitimate guide for making one's way through the ugly season we call MLC.
Religious beliefs (of all faiths or no faith and everywhere in between) are a core part of the identity of many members.
Everyone has their own motivations and influences for starting, continuing, or ending their stand.
Those who choose to stand for the long term have their reasons, and all of those reasons are worthy of respect.
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Thanks for your post Onward. You raised some good points. Thank you for having the courage to share your thoughts. I am sure there are other here who had similar responses to RCR's article.
When MLC enters our lives, we are caught off guard, confused, hurt, and emotionally paralyzed. We yearn for answers to the nightmare our lives have become. When we stumble upon this site, it is an incredible relief to know that we are not alone. The support provided by fellow HS members is tremendous and pulls us from up from despair.
We then seek help in setting a clear path for saving our marriages. And, it is at this stage that the help from our fellow HS members falls short. Not because they are holding back, but, because we are seeking something that does not exist. There is no script to follow which will guarantee a saved marriage or reconciliation.
The beauty of sharing experiences and questioning even the best advice is that it gives us pause to think and reflect on the larger picture.
Speaking for myself ... I have found that I am always looking to spin the experiences I read about to my preferred outcome, a restored relationship. I have questioned how the passage of time, amongst other advice, can lead to my preferred outcome. Three plus years into this journey, my emotional health has greatly improved, but, my relationship still has a long way to go.
We have control over ourselves, not our spouses/partners. It takes two healthy people to be in a healthy relationship. Oh yes, and both need to want to be in the relationship. For these reasons, no one is able to provide the recipe for restoration.
I am not on expert on standing. I believe it means something different to each of us. And, that is OK. We each need to make our own way through, albeit, with a little help from our HS friends.
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Onward, could you clarify\detail for me what you mean as to the inherent contradiction we all deal with in your comments? I am afraid I'm not sure that I understand what you are referring to exactly, and don't want to miss your point or guess at it.
Is it reality versus hope?
Time it takes versus too long?
Faith based versus other approaches?
Standing still versus moving forward?
Am I in the ball park? Or am I as lost as the Cubs were tonight?
Lp
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Onward and others...
Thank you so much for the questions--and I like how you tend toward good questions that challenge--I don't mean mentally, but challenge in the sense of pushing back. I knew this would be a controversial topic and we discussed the post ahead of time at the mod board and trust me not everyone is or was pleased about it! The hope-reality balance was a big issue and it is something I am always looking at.
I am now posting not to answer questions, but to let you know I have seen them but that I am busy at least for tomorrow--I have an all day parenting class tomorrow--and I think I really need to focus on family through Halloween--since we have only Sunday left for Pumpkin carving and then I've got to plan our Halloween day/night...and that will be exciting. The kids understand the concept now and are TOTALLY excited.
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Onward, could you clarify\detail for me what you mean as to the inherent contradiction we all deal with in your comments? I am afraid I'm not sure that I understand what you are referring to exactly, and don't want to miss your point or guess at it.
Is it reality versus hope?
Time it takes versus too long?
Faith based versus other approaches?
Standing still versus moving forward?
Am I in the ball park? Or am I as lost as the Cubs were tonight?
Lp
LP, the inherent contradiction I see is in the role of time, and what is often written here about time.
MLC takes time. A spouse in MLC must work through the MLC before they return -- if they return at all.
Yet, the longer a couple is apart, the less likely a return.
If an LBS believes in the process of MLC, time must do its work.
Yet, an LBS who trusts the process is working against the odds.
There are perceptions that an LBS standing for a long time is waiting or stuck.
Yet, an LBS who hopes for reconciliation must be open to standing for a long time.
These are contradictions.
I personally think reality and hope learned to live harmoniously a very long time ago.
I’m not sure what you are referring to in regards to faith based versus other approaches. Perhaps you mean approaches to MLC? I think different people will have different bases of belief from which they will make individual decisions regarding how to respond to MLC.
If someone claimed to believe certain things, and then behaved in a ways contrary to those beliefs, they might have internal conflict, but that’s a different matter.
There are many differences of view regarding what, precisely, constitutes standing still and what constitutes moving forward. So no, that wasn’t what I was referring to.
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I have to agree with Onward-I noticed the contradiction, but didn't post to point it out. I figure learning about the MLC "process" is an ongoing effort and therefore a moving target as things are observed.
I can't find it now, but there was an article that stated "MLC takes Time. A LOT of time." Although I did find an article with that exact title, it doesn't read like I remember (or maybe it was edited?). In any case it gave an example if you are "18 months from BD, your spouse is in replay. If you are 3 years from BD your spouse is still likely in replay."
And then to find RR's recent blog post that suggest that the further distanced by time from BD the less likely a return is a contradiction to that earlier article I attempted to find.
In all honesty, I appreciate the harsh truth of diminishing odds with time. When we ALL land here I think we all try to find the magic fix, and want to know the odds. I think we ALL just want to save our marriages and have life turn back to "normal" again. Reading the articles gave one a sense that this is all "temporary", but lengthy. It gives one the needed hope. RR made it crystal clear that there were NO guarantees, but the articles "read" like most will WANT to try and return.
One of the things I did when I arrived here was to search out all the journey's with purple icons [haven't we all done that?]. While I realize there are no real reliable statistics, I did notice a "trend" with the majority of the "purple" that suggest that the majority of those return in a relatively short timeframe-around 2 years or less. It *seems* like based on that alone, that most of the "returners" realize quite quickly that they made a mistake quite early on. [I acknowledge that it is also possible they weren't "fully cooked" when some of them returned as well being the timeline was relatively short].
Anyway, this latest post stating that the further distance by time one is from BD the less chances of a return do seem to line up with what I'm seeing in the forums.
Again although the contradiction, I do applaud the most recent post and believe it should somehow be incorporated in the main articles. The new-comer absolutely needs HOPE upon arrival-but I think they also need the cruel reality of the odds.
-T
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Again although the contradiction, I do applaud the most recent post and believe it should somehow be incorporated in the main articles. The new-comer absolutely needs HOPE upon arrival-but I think they also need the cruel reality of the odds.
Thank you for this comment.
RCR can speak for herself and of course so can others.
There has been much discussion about this going on behind the scenes.
I can only relate my own timeline which is going on 7 and a half years from bomb drop and 8 years from
the trigger event.
Although I have seen some movement in MLC for the most part there is none.
Now maybe my ex was never in MLC and just has permanent depression which midlife set into
full view.
I really think that the point of all this is that we must concentrate on ourselves and not worry about
the person that we have absolutely no control over.
It is amazing to me how codependent, conflict avoiding, enablers seem to always make up
the LBS population.
I think that those are things that we all need to work on.
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At the 'height' of my almost six years in this (and on this site :o), I would like to say that when we are freshly BDed, we are desperately looking for hope. I went to a therapist in the following week and I was horrified at the way she shot my yearning for hope down :'( - Needless to say, she didn't last :P
The balance between hope and the harsh reality needs to be gently reconciled and I think HS with its kind and caring people along with RCR's articles were instrumental for me in the beginning and carefully guided me to acceptance in my time.
Thank you Onward for your brief allusion to this:
I’m sorry to blunt in making this point, but I can’t imagine telling a friend with a cancer diagnosis, “I don't want to discourage you. But, you know, the odds aren’t good.”
As many of you know, my son was diagnosed with brain cancer at the age of 13, we had a doctor (top brain surgeon) tell us that all that was left were 'safe' palliative resources and another who wanted to defy the odds and operate. We went with the latter surgeon - my son is cured with minimum side effects. My sister was diagnosed at the end of last year and we tried all the agressive resources we could, she died two months ago at the age of 52.
The odds were not good at all, in both cases we went with hope, dealing with the reality that was thrown into our faces day after day. We knew there were no guarantees and we fully trusted God for the outcome in both cases. Why did my son live? Why did my dear sister die?
I continue to stand for my dead marriage, for the full restoration of my family, in the hope that one day, the miracle will come.
In the meantime, I live my life as fully and productively as I can, facing the reality of loneliness, tight finances, kid issues (they never end, do they?), and being still, knowing that God will be exalted, regardless of the outcome in my lifetime.
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After reading the responses I tend to look at reconciliation as meeting again on a different level at a different time. It will be brand new. I look at is my MLC W and our marriage is gone. I am standing yet I am moving forward in my life and doing things for me. I haven't dated yet and have no urge to at this point because I am enjoying doing things for me. I may date casually in the future who knows. I go day by day. If my MLC W exits the tunnel this year or in 5 years and wishes to come back I will approach it as something new. Like a first date all over again. When I look at the situation in this way it helps me to detach and say what we had is gone, IF we have something again it will be brand new. She may never return and that will be OK also because I have and am moving forward and have done so without her. My love for her is still present and our connection we shared will never fade but there is that harsh reality of the unknown.
Just my thoughts on reconciliation.
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I continue to stand for my dead marriage, for the full restoration of my family, in the hope that one day, the miracle will come.
In the meantime, I live my life as fully and productively as I can, facing the reality of loneliness, tight finances, kid issues (they never end, do they?), and being still, knowing that God will be exalted, regardless of the outcome in my lifetime.
I realize that maybe the sentence above may be misleading... I look forward, my marriage is nonexistent, legally speaking and the old marriage is truly dead. What I mean is standing for reconciliation and a 'new' marriage with my h. and father of my children.
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Quote from Onward
Since this is a “discussion” thread, and not a “full agreement” thread, I did want to share how some of the messages in this post landed with me, though.
I thought long and hard about posting this, even slept on it, because in many ways it is easiest to just let it go. Then there's also that niggling thing about teaching others how to treat you....so.....
Even though RCR has stated she is not trying to destroy hope, and I believe that, there are aspects of this post that I did find quite discouraging.
Onward, you brought up some very good points, and I was thinking the very same things.
The balance is tricky, we want to encourage hope, be gentle with the "newbies" yet what about reality?
In the early days when he was stomping all over my heart, I kept repeating out loud, "it's part of the process, he needs time". Literally out loud over and over just so I could breath. At the time, If I read on this site that the longer it takes the less chance I had, it would have put me over the edge. I just know it would. I could breath b/c I believed the time away was good, it's the only way I could get through the day.
Yes, I now know that most returners seem to come back on the earlier side, and most seem to be still cooking. I'm not sure if I would have wanted to know that in the early days b/c mine was way gone, and at the time what seemed to me as a hard core vanisher. Again, the type of MLCer that seems to be less likely to return. Should we tell the newbies that too? It has been discussed on this site before but with a little side note that most likely because LBSers of vanishers are less likely to take them back as they are more use to them being gone. See the little twist of hope? I thought, "well, that won't be me" (even though, it is me but at the time I needed hope).
In the early days when I mentioned on this forum that mine was a vanisher the mentors basically told me not to worry, that some need that space more than others. I thought, "oh good, its not so bad". Also, my "vanisher" once called me out of the blue about two months after he left to say, "Hi"... because of the advise on this site I brushed him off, thinking it was too early. Then I second guessed myself, thinking it was my only shot. A very respected mentor on this site said it was too early and he probably only would have left again.
So was I wrong to brush him off? Do we need to scramble more in the early days because the clock is ticking?.... OR is time a gift?
It seems confusing at a time when newbies are already in a puddle of distress.
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RR made it crystal clear that there were NO guarantees, but the articles "read" like most will WANT to try and return.
I can see how the articles might be misinterpreted that most would want to try to return but in the article Midlife crisis - the overview -section on Liminality there is one very telling sentence which struck me to the core when I read it not long after BD.
RCR says that this is often where they make the decision to return to the marriage or not; she also says that this is not always the final final final decision but it usually can be. Nevertheless this is at liminality and most of the early returners on the forum have not hit liminality so the timeline for these early returners is quite short.
Not all of the purple icons are early returners and not all of them were vanishers or CBs that have returned.
Stayed has a marvellous story about a very good friend of hers whose H just disappeared and over three+ years later asked to see her again. Apparently her friend was convinced that he would be seeking D but instead he wanted to return and he did.
There are quite a few stories either as threads or from forum members who know of returners who are/were well outside the 2 year mark. RCR is very clear in her articles that 2 years is a general early average for possible early returners as in marking the end of replay. This is not a guarantee that the return will last and indeed her own story is very informative on repeated returns and how she handled it.
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Most reconciliations happen in the early years. That is not to say that they do not happen later, but the odds go down with time.
For me, this is the quote that I am struggling with...
Don't get me wrong, I think like most of RCR's articles it is informative and well written. It's just in the early days I read and read each article many times and took them to heart. If I read this I would have been distraught that the clock was ticking and I feel I would have become even more desperate, if that's even possible.
I understood that there was no guarantees but I was digging like crazy for statistics, time lines, anything that would help me beat the odds. If I thought time was against me instead of patience and time being my best warrior, I would have spiraled down even deeper in despair.
Yes, believe me I know,...we are supposed to focus on ourselves. Newbies never do this, we ALWAYS focus on the MLCers in the beginning. So how is telling them that odds go down with time help them? Now instead of learning to focus on ourselves, we feel pressured to hurry up and figure a way to get our spouse back.
I would anyways....
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The contradictions can't be ignored, or downplayed.
Here's my take:
- Not everyone who comes here has a spouse in MLC.
- Paving the way is not for everyone, some of us really do need to go No Contact early on to avoid abuse ( financial, emotional, verbal, physical, etc...)
- The faster you let go, the faster you can get on with your life.
- They need to suffer the consequences of their actions without our input.
- Our children deserve to be protected from the trauma to the best of our ability.
- The MLCer isn't concerned with anything that happens to the LBSer, so you have to accept that.
- They ARE trying to destroy the LBSer due to their pride issues, and sense of entitlement.
- Pavers make their MLCer feel empowered by feeding their sense of entitlement.
- NO they don't care what happens to you.
- It's a waste of time worrying about them.
- They are only concerned about you being there for them, and will continue their behavior to ensure that you don't move forward.
- They have more control over Pavers, because they are more willing to put up with their BS.
- They are only interested in control, therefore they provoke you to keep you FOCUSED ON THEM.
- No it's not your fault, they have issues that they hide from us.
- Stop blaming yourself there is really is nothing you can do.
- There is the possibility that after you work on yourself that you may not want them back.
- No one is perfect, but the LBSer is a least willing to work on themselves.
- Too much emphasis is placed on the MLCer on this forum, and there is a lot of condemnation on LBSers and judgment of how they handle their individual situations.
That's just my take.
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I really think that the point of all this is that we must concentrate on ourselves and not worry about
the person that we have absolutely no control over.
It is amazing to me how codependent, conflict avoiding, enablers seem to always make up
the LBS population.
I think that those are things that we all need to work on.
Always?
Well, I'm not conflict avoiding.
I don't seek out conflict, either. But it sure is interesting what has happened a number of times when I have expressed an independent thought or contradictory point of view.
Isn't it funny how life is filled with contradictions.
BTW, I'm not codependent either.
Or an enabler.
At least, not that a professional has ever said. ;)
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I wondered what the response would be to RCR's post, as in the past when I posted basically the Reader's Digest version of it I had people calling for my head :). Unlike many here I considered my X gone for good the minute I found out about the OM and while in pain I just needed to heal and figure out how this "Pod Person" was who had taken over my Bride....Recognizing it as something I had no control over I worked entirely on getting my own spiritual, emotional and physical ducks in line. Being the Anchor for my two kids rather than a Lighthouse for an X on a voyage with Captain Jack Sparrow was my focus.
I took the course I did based on the experience I'd had with other long term pre-marriage relationships (1-5 years), being that the scenario for an exit affair and MLC are not a lot different. They became a distant, evasive and defensive, then they left for another guy. In those cases it was very rare they ever came back, unless they got dumped relatively quickly or were trying to make the new guy jealous enough to "Seal the Deal", "fool me twice" came to mind, it never lasted or was genuine.
A few of them I've met again after the passage of 10 years plus, none had really changed at all in their attitude, nor I would want anything to do with. Only one looks at me as "The One" she should not have left and has apparently been battering her poor husband over the head with that for the last 30 years. He's now in ill health and according to long time friends she's been recconecting with them and enquiring about me....I did "Stand" for her for about two years, but now hardly see such a person as a prize.
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The contradictions can't be ignored, or downplayed.
Here's my take:
- Not everyone who comes here has a spouse in MLC.
- Paving the way is not for everyone, some of us really do need to go No Contact early on to avoid abuse ( financial, emotional, verbal, physical, etc...)
- The faster you let go, the faster you can get on with your life.
- They need to suffer the consequences of their actions without our input.
- Our children deserve to be protected from the trauma to the best of our ability.
- The MLCer isn't concerned with anything that happens to the LBSer, so you have to accept that.
- They ARE trying to destroy the LBSer due to their pride issues, and sense of entitlement.
- Pavers make their MLCer feel empowered by feeding their sense of entitlement.
- NO they don't care what happens to you.
- It's a waste of time worrying about them.
- They are only concerned about you being there for them, and will continue their behavior to ensure that you don't move forward.
- They have more control over Pavers, because they are more willing to put up with their BS.
- They are only interested in control, therefore they provoke you to keep you FOCUSED ON THEM.
- No it's not your fault, they have issues that they hide from us.
- Stop blaming yourself there is really is nothing you can do.
- There is the possibility that after you work on yourself that you may not want them back.
- No one is perfect, but the LBSer is a least willing to work on themselves.
- Too much emphasis is placed on the MLCer on this forum, and there is a lot of condemnation on LBSers and judgment of how they handle their individual situations.
That's just my take.
I think you and I are "Soul Mates" :)
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I am someone who does not think that someone in MLC is on a journey. I think they have a biology based mental illness that is likely to some extent hereditary and affects specific part or parts of the brain. My guess is that this is also to some degree systemic and possibly related to inflammation and the immune system.
The impact is: haywire fight-or-flight response, inability to predict consequences of behaviors, increase in primitive defense mechanisms like fantasy and projection, difficulty regulating emotions like anger, increased episodes of PTSD, and inability to feel empathy. I believe it also damages ability to learn from mistakes, think critically, control impulses, and ability to read situational clues.
What this means is that the spouse of someone with "MLC" needs coaching and tools and language to deal with someone with a mental illness or personality disorder that may never resolve. This includes ways they can avoid becoming emotionally entangled and also avoid aggravating the spouse's condition -- and eventually possibly coming to accept that this is a permanent or long term neurological change and make decisions accordingly. (Much like someone whose spouse had a stroke or other brain injury would do.)
I think that in this frame, the LBS can see that he or she is not responsible for this illness and can only avoid doing things to exacerbate the side effects, like responding emotionally to the MLCer, and protecting themselves from an oftentimes abusive and amoral person.
I believe MLC an illness/condition with no predictable timeline, meaning some can recover and some may cycle for over a decade or never recover. There is an increasing understanding that mental illness is inflammation based and this may be a factor.
I think the articles offer great descriptions of patterns and help show ways the condition is predictable in its manifestation if not its timeline.
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The balance is tricky, we want to encourage hope, be gentle with the "newbies" yet what about reality?
In the early days when he was stomping all over my heart, I kept repeating out loud, "it's part of the process, he needs time". Literally out loud over and over just so I could breath. At the time, If I read on this site that the longer it takes the less chance I had, it would have put me over the edge. I just know it would. I could breath b/c I believed the time away was good, it's the only way I could get through the day.
Don't get me wrong, I think like most of RCR's articles it is informative and well written. It's just in the early days I read and read each article many times and took them to heart. If I read this I would have been distraught that the clock was ticking and I feel I would have become even more desperate, if that's even possible.
I understood that there was no guarantees but I was digging like crazy for statistics, time lines, anything that would help me beat the odds. If I thought time was against me instead of patience and time being my best warrior, I would have spiraled down even deeper in despair.
I agree that there is a certain balance of hope and reality - I am someone that prefers to look at things realistically but in the early days of BD my logical brain was not so logical.
I think that even with the harsh reality being noted that newbies don't necessarily see that truth. Our brains are wired to process only what we are able to handle at that given time. There are several times that I have read an article then reread that same article 3, 4, 5 months later and understand it completely differently than I did the first time. There has also been information in the article that I somehow missed or didn't process because I was not ready to digest it.
I remember reading the articles that talked about the timeline - we all wanted to know the timeline - and thinking that my MLCer was 'special' and he would be closer to the 2 year milestone. I was in denial about a lot of things until I was healed enough to consider the other information that had been staring right at me, the whole time.
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I think that even with the harsh reality being noted that newbies don't necessarily see that truth. Our brains are wired to process only what we are able to handle at that given time. There are several times that I have read an article then reread that same article 3, 4, 5 months later and understand it completely differently than I did the first time. There has also been information in the article that I somehow missed or didn't process because I was not ready to digest it.
I completely agree with this and I think newbies are in just as much emotional turmoil as the MLCr's. I also read articles and then read them a year later and they mean something completely different to me now. I believe that is because in the beginning I was a mess and was only seeing what I wanted to see. Now that I have detached and found myself, so reading the articles now I grasp and interpret the information on a new level.
Hope for LBSr's in the first year or so is different for each person depending on the circumstances of the spouse based on contact levels, abuse, etc... Some have absolutely No hope and others only a glimmer. I think that any hope at the start of this mess is all false mostly because we are usually emotionally, psychologically and physically drained. Once we have gained strength in ourselves and our emotions the level of hope has changed.
Perhaps only my observations.
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Codependent and conflict avoidant as we might be (at various points, those epithets have applied to me ::) ), I think the general HS approach of self-protection and emotional distancing does work after BD - for us, if not for the MLCer. I didn't consider I was being kind to my MLCer for the purpose of 'paving the way' nor that I was being a softie; I thought "you may be one angry SOB, but you're not going to make me behave like you!" Being kind (albeit with boundaries) was a way of asserting that my H couldn't make me react with anger (though react I did, inside!). I was very strict with myself about that.
I've thought before that whatever shape our MLCer's 'acting out' takes, that's the one that we seem to be most reluctant to see develop in ourselves. Stayed has talked about her H's MLC jealousy, and how it became poison to her to have similar emotions. My H was a raging angry mess, and I suppressed every shred of anger, cultivated my zen. Other similar parallels I've noticed, in other stories. Perhaps the act of actively not becoming whatever monster our spouse has become, has a liberating effect on us?
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What this means is that the spouse of someone with "MLC" needs coaching and tools and language to deal with someone with a mental illness or personality disorder that may never resolve. This includes ways they can avoid becoming emotionally entangled and also avoid aggravating the spouse's condition -- and eventually possibly coming to accept that this is a permanent or long term neurological change and make decisions accordingly. (Much like someone whose spouse had a stroke or other brain injury would do.)
I think that in this frame, the LBS can see that he or she is not responsible for this illness and can only avoid doing things to exacerbate the side effects...
FWIW this approach made a lot of sense to me, when I was a newbie. I had a counselor advise me as though I were living with an alcoholic, on what language strategies to use and how to get away from an escalating situation before I got hurt. No role for blaming, just self-preservation.
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Standing isn't a guarantee it's true. There are some things that are not going to be different. There are some people who will not come back due to the fact that they can't live with the guilt. And, many others because they won't wake up. It really doesn't matter, in the end the only thing that does matter is: what are you as the LBSer going to do about it?
Are you going to spend the rest of your life waiting for someone that might not ever return? Or will you go on bravely and see what else is out there for you? Standing doesn't mean that you become someone that doesn't have a life. And truth be known, RCR is the exception not the rule.
Her articles contradict for one reason and one reason only: it's all speculation, there are no concrete answers. We don't know if it's a mental illness. We don't know if it's spiritual. We just don't know. Too many people on the forum have seen RCR as the authority. She's just someone that has done research and a lot of leg work. And, a good job for the most part. Still, she doesn't have all the answers. And, let's be honest: quoting her articles constantly is not helping anyone on this issue. People want answers that may never be forth coming. It all depends on the situation.
There will be some people that will move on, and find someone new. Then the MLCer will return. There will be others that will not find someone else and be forever alone waiting for someone that will not come back. Still there will be others that will be in the midst of moving on with someone else, and the MLCer will want to return. There will be others that will stay with the OP and still try to maintain a connection with the LBS. The possibilities are endless. The more important question is: How long do you intend to stand with no guarantees? Maybe there should be a time limit. All of us deserve to have a new life considering what we've all been through. The question is: How much time do you really want to invest waiting for the unknown? It's really a personal decision that only the LBSer can make.
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What an interesting thread! I'm so glad that contrasting viewpoints have been brought up and met with respect. We're growing, fam. ;)
The overriding thought in my view that this thread proves is that time helps us discover what our core beliefs about MLC are individually. And a lot of the confusion we initially experience is brought to clarity once we do have our own understanding of what happened to our lives and where we want them to go from here.
When I initially came here in 2012, I perceived that there were more returns in a quicker amount of time. I perceived it was more of an assumption I could make that my xH would follow the same path I was feeling commonality with from the stories I was reading, and be home in 2-3 years tops as though this were just an episode that was a bump in the road for our marriage. I made financial, legal, and emotional decisions based on this that were not good long term choices (which is why when I was a mentor I told all of y'all to go get a free lawyer consult stat, no matter what!).
But there were less people on the forum then. There were less other forums and programs that dealt with similar issues. Heck, how Google directed us here was different. The research about neurotransmitters, gut health, various disorders, etc had not evolved and mainstreamed to the point it has now and will continue to do. There were as many mainstream examples in the media, like the A-listers and potential politicians nasty women like me don't vote for or who send 'wiener pics' to anyone who will take one (see, I'm bipartisan in my judgmentalism!) who were openly called out for midlife crisis, narcissistic personality disorder, or a slew of other mental illnesses or behavioral problems. In some ways our sensationalist media has done us a square by presenting a platform to start a broader, more evolved conversation about it. But it also means things don't stay the same, even in the big picture.
So in the six years since RCR started this forum, and in the eight years I think since Chuck has returned to their marriage, I'm going to give RCR a pass that her opinion as well has evolved. She's seen a lot of us come through with much different stories while at the same time seen the trauma she went through fade further away in the year view mirror. She's pointed out many times that we cannot use this forum as statistical proof since it's not a scientifically sound sampling of people experiencing an MLC spouse. And the biggie is, this is not a program.
If she had just written a blog in first person narrative with all of the same information from the articles and blog posts, like the old Newman's Own blog some of us read in the beginning, I don't think there would be so much pressure on her to be "consistent" or directive in her advice. Other people were more upfront that they are aiming to guide LBSs like HB, Rejoice Ministries, and Joe Beam on the 'standing' side, and Melanie Tonia Evans on the 'healing' side.
But RCR is just an observer, in my book. She had this experience, and this is what she learned during the course of it. It was easier when there were just a few dozen active members of the forum who could brainstorm on day-to-day activities with an MLCer, but as the scope has expanded there are now a lot of divorced people who really can't just 'hold space' for an MLCer 5-10 years down the road. Hope, of course! But I'm sure we can all agree that not every person is able to detach and live life in tandem with standing, and to encourage them to continue to do so without facing all of the possible outcomes would destroy them. I wouldn't want that on my head.
And there's likely a reason Newman pulled his blog down. His original story was inspiring, but maybe it didn't last. Or maybe they moved on with their lives, and are just a plain ol' married couple who don't want to talk about it any more. We're still very lucky RCR didn't just get tired of this and take the site down.
Yes, it can read as contradiction if you want those original writings to be canon and not progressive. But we have to remember that she is a human being too who, like us, has continued living and growing outside of MLC. Maybe this is the example we should be open to, moreso than just as a means to understand MLC as a concept.
I think Onward raises a very important point about the Law of Attraction and MLC. My faith is such that Christianity and LoA aren't mutually exclusive in my daily routine. Plus, I worked for one famous LoA guru and another not-as-famous one, so I feel pretty well versed in the concept. It is not in line with LoA to mute expectation. Expectation is a pivotal part of the concept.
I also feel that way about prayer. I know God will do what is best for me and in line with what His plan for my life is, but He has given me lots of clues about that along this journey. What resonated with me about RCR's story is that she had a 'knowing', and I did, too. Was my knowing false? No, God does not lie. I experienced many things, including how I found out about the OW, that confirmed what God was putting in my heart and what I was praying for were accurate.
But I know we don't want to set each other up to be hurt again, to be disappointed, or to be played a fool. The only option I can see for reconciling expectation and detachment is acceptance and focus. Accept that God has heard you, then give yourself freedom to focus elsewhere, like on yourself, your work, your family and future. Take care of the 'now', and trust God has the outcome. Sometimes the 'now' includes dealing with the alien spouse in court so you can protect what the two of you built together. Sometimes it means looking at the big picture and accepting that maybe that wonderful day they are 'themselves' again, they might be your best friend, but not your spouse. Or even just a person that makes you smile when you see them at your grandchildren's events, who you are at peace with. Trust that whatever it is, it will be enough. Focus on the peace. If I could share any lesson I've learned from this process on anyone, it's that. Because the lack of peace, when you're going through it, is brutal.
I think sometimes the biggest thing we do 'wrong' here is commiserate. We all have crazy MLCer days. But you can't see positive results from a negative perspective. You have to get out of the shade to feel the warmth of the sun. And that's not to say we 'heal' anyone, but by focusing only on everything we hate, we become just like the society that wants to call us chumps. Even in the worst of times, self-focus can be an improvement over bitter-focus, or fear-focus, or anger-focus. Part of it is part of grieving, but sometimes we stay there too long and fall into it too easily. I'm guilty, too.
Rambling too much now, but even that is easy to do because this site was able to be the foundation but not the key to my deeper understanding of MLC and how it affected ME and my xH. It's okay to not agree on all, because we each have to live our own lives and make our own choices. Thanks to becoming stable because of this site and this forum, I can do that. Thank you.
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R2R, awesome comment.
My take is that HS is a place of healing rather than instruction - OP's newbie comments are all the instruction required.
I used to take "Trust the process" as meaning the MLC process. But now I take it as meaning my own. And that evolution/reset has definitely taken me quite a long TIME!
RCR's articles are informative not prescriptive and that's as it should be, as there is probably no more likelihood that there is a science of MLC than there is one for culture.
Anthropologists have searched for years for a set of cultural consistencies - out of hope, one would assume. But human beings and their doings continue to defy statistical logic! Yay!!!
I have accepted I am on my own, making it up as I go along, but it has certainly helped to grasp at straws when I've been at my dizziest. There's healing in community (perhaps that's a cultural consistency!) and I'm so very grateful for this site and all the conversations on it.
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I have made a point of not going back and reading other people's views on this, so what I am about to say is based on my initial thoughts on RCR's latest blog and my own thoughts on MLC and me.
THESE ARE JUST MY OPINIONS
When I read this latest update I was a little dismayed tbh........it was like I had bought into an idea and then the very person who started the idea had changed their mind and had thought completely differently........maybe that's harsh but that's how I felt.
It was like when I first came here I had hope but now whoever 'sold' me hope was trying to sit on the fence....
Maybe it was my perception of RCR's 'message' when I first found this site. I felt, then as if I found hope, I felt in RCR's own story and her articles some explanation for the insane. Maybe its because the original articles were written a few years ago and now as more people join the forum the idealistic, more optimistic view RCR had (based on her own experience) has now changed, I don't know what prompted this latest blog?
But as someone who is in the midst of this, with a MLC'er who has started divorce I was sad to read this article. I have got so much from RCR's blogs and articles. In my case her articles on the BP OW and Stockholm syndrome have been particularly true and helpful. Its also been very helpful to read the words of others who's spouses are in MLC to read the words they used at BD and the things that have been said and done in the MLC affairs, because there is definitely a script, which gives some perverse sense of comfort.
However I feel there are people who find this forum who's spouse is not in MLC.
Maybe they were exit affairs, some with previous history of affairs, not so happy marriages, undetected personality disorders.....whatever........but they are not MLC and they sway the odds, along with breakdown in communication.
My own therapist, with 35 years experience and a neuroscientist had a far more optimistic view of this.
Also, since this has happened I have spoken to others who have known people who have gone through this and many have reconciled, time lines anything from 1-4 years.
In my opinion it should never be called midlife crisis, this is DEPRESSION first and foremost IMO.
Yes there are also personality issues (conflict avoidance, people pleasing, child hood abuse, abandonment, image problems, identity crisis, developmental problems) BUT ultimately it leads to depression in mid life.
Yes there are LBS's with co-dependency, enabling issues but IF their spouse is in crisis and depressed this didn't cause it, though it may mean they cope differently.
So if we take for granted this is a site supporting those in MLC and if we accept that MLC is primarily depression doesn't it go without saying we should start from a point of compassion (which I know is hard in the cases of abuse) but in most cases it should be what we are aiming at, as this is a mental health issue?
Personally I would ban the term MLC, because its what causes us (LBS's) the most conflict, when we are coming to terms with whats happened.
We think of the spouse in terms of having a midlife crisis as being something they can help, but we would not think that if someone said our spouse was deeply depressed, would we?
Yes I know they go off with an AP in most cases, get very destructive and lash out, but it is depression. Yes I know there are points where they realise what they have done but its still depression.
Of course, its up to the LBS how we chose to deal with this, up to our religious beliefs, if we have kids, our own morality, our own wants and needs and belief in our spouse and what the spouse does in MLC.
I don't think there has to be a diminishing of hope, sadly I felt thats what this blog did TBH, especially for those who have been standing for years.
I think its very important for everyone who's spouse is in MLC to understand its about depression and to understand and accept there is nothing they can do to help their spouse, which is what this site is good at doing .
Applying pressure, making them consider our own pain, our own wants and needs, reminding them of what we are going through, what they have done to US, is pressure to someone in DEPRESSION who is trying to get through each day.
For those of us who are dealing with an AP, its tough, bloody tough but they are clinging to this AP as a lifejacket in a sea which is dragging them down.
If we cling to them too, then we are all going to sink, so we have no option but to cut the rope and swim to the shore but all of us have an option to watch from the shore or walk away, that's a personal choice.
As RCR pointed out, we need to do mirror work, to live our lives. We need to do this in anyway we can, the religious pray, others meditate, we need to be kind to ourselves and fill our lives with friends, family, hobbies and anything that gives us a break from all this angst but as I have seen in many journeys (and my own) this can be a very spiritual journey and an enlightening one.
And we all grow in ways we never expected and at our own time. There are many who have been standing with great style and graciousness for years, they have not been wilting on the vine, not spent their time in widows weeds. They have been living their lives still with hope and love for their MLC'er. I applaud them, because I Think I would be the same. I love my H deeply, I know he is not well, he is depressed and in crisis and is blowing up his life, our life, but not mine....I live each day, think of him all the time, I go out enjoy each day, because it is important, each day is a day of MY LIFE, a day I will never have back, a day not to give away lightly. A day that has joy and sadness in it, a day that has trials and hardship and friendship and loneliness.
But I am making a conscious effort to live each day, my MLC h is surviving each day in depression, running and scared and anxious, depressed and lost.
I believe its important to remember that and(unless they are abusive) to maintain some sort of contact, if you want reconciliation, even if its every couple of months (in my case).
Its my belief that MLC brings out narcissistic tendencies but not all MLC'ers are narcissistic. Many are broken people in depression that would not have the courage, when they come out of this and faced with everything they have done, to approach an estranged LBS.
I believe the person in MLC, as they continue, is more consumed with guilt and shame because as they move forward, and the fog is less dense, they are more aware of the destruction they've caused, so its important, unless you don't want to reconcile, or if they have been completely abusive and/or destructive, they know you are there, somewhere in the background, not propping, not enabling, not waiting without living and not co-dependent, but there (if you want to be).
Then I believe when they come out of this, they would be more likely to make contact, whenever that may be,
Now IF, you have moved on when that time comes, whether that's 1 year or 10 years down the line, then that's what is meant to be, because I believe all of this is down to what's meant to be.
Because its so true the saying if you love someone set them free and if they were yours they will come back.......
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As has been mentioned here, moderators/mentors also have varying perspectives. I understand that some LBSs don't want to know in the beginning that it is less likely a marriage will reconcile and that being told that, at the start, may have made some people make different choices. But perhaps some people needed to make different choices, particularly in regards to economic stability for themselves (and any children). Too often there appears to be a fear of rocking the boat or pushing a divorce forward, that puts an LBS in harm's way when it comes to their secrity. Understanding reality from the start, doesn't need to undermine a person's inner resolve or belief that the outcome of your desire is possible. There are many things in life, for which the odds are long, but exceptions still happen. That is a faith that each person must find and hold for herself or himself. It cannot be the responsibility of this forum or the messages here. I understand this is only my view of the situation, but I have been at this a while and am a third generation LBS who has seen many MLC situations from childhood on. I will share with you what I communitcated to other moderators about why I personally believe it's important that this message reach LBSs early on:
This forum is evolving. We know more than we knew when it was formed and it behooves us to evolve with it. I don't want to dash hope, but a person's faith has to be stronger than RCR's articles and blog posts to survive the challenges of MLC and standing. I've consistently done things in my life where the odds are stacked against me. The "data" doesn't matter if my internal belief is there. It's too much pressure/responsibility to put on the board or on articles or blog posts and, if too much of an LBS's faith and hope relies on such externals, they can too easily be shaken. The point is to have the support to stand as long as it feels right and healthy for each LBS regardless of data and anecdotes. We say to live as if the MLCer is not coming home and to get on with life, so that would indicate a belief that regardless of the LBS moving forward in this manner, a marriage can still reconcile if both people are willing. This shouldn't change by providing a more realistic blog post.
I agree about keeping an honest view of hope alive, but this is not a protective parental relationship. The forum is comprised of adults and it's important we understand the reality from the start. The LBS has enough untruths and lack of trust in our lives, and this is where anger or frustrations can come in, for some LBSs, as time goes on and people feel stuck or as though they weren't given a realistic view from the beginning. For someone like me it feels patronizing, rather than supportive, if I'm not trusted with the reality or am protected from it until someone else decides I'm ready for it or until I realize it on my own after I've already made decisions I would have made differently had I known more. I have a right to proceed with my eyes wide open from the start.
This is why it's important to have various voices here, because what may feel supportive and sensitive and hopeful to some, may feel misleading, patronizing and infantalizing to others. Some may need to have reassurance from the articles to stand and others might do it even if the odds are long, but they feel called to do so and supported in that decision. People's lives and economic futures hang in the balance here and, while not talking about the lower chances of reconcilation as much in the beginning, may seem the kinder gentler approach on first consideration, that can backfire in the long run and keep people stuck, or from taking protective action, which can have devastating consequences to the LBS and their children.
Some of the members here may remain standing longer than they might on their own, or do not proceed to protect themselves legally, because of what is said on this board, so what is said as board information needs to be as accurate as possible. Some people take it as gospel, or at least take if very seriously, and make critical, life-altering decisions based on that information precisely because we are grasping for hope when we first come here. It feels a bit like throwing someone a life preserver, but then not also mentioning that it is more likely than not to leak all of its air out before they get safely to shore, so they can consider all of their options along the way. True, a person may be less scared or upset, and more hopeful at the start, but they may also drown because they didn't have all of the information as clearly as they could have.
The healing and wholeness of the LBS is the priority on this site and we are being much more clear, in my opinion, if it's said more directly from the start that the majority of marriages will not permanently reconcile, but that reality also bears out that there are stories of reconciliaiton as well as stories of great happiness and success without reconciliation, and that this is a site for people who wish to stand for themselves first and foremost and for their marriage as long as it feels right and healthy to them and they have protected themselves and their children, including financially.
Peace and healing,
Phoenix
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That's a wonderful post 1trouble.
Back when I was dealing with the ex both times at BD then D (in 2011) then mine and the childrens the return in Oct 2012 to the second BD in April 2013 this was NPD plus the depression if you'd like to throw in MLC feel free to.
The abuse of me at about every level was and is unforgivable in the sense that I wouldn't feel comfortable having anything to do with him.Period.
In the mirror work I had to start with forgiving myself for not knowing what I was dealing with. AND for not leaving him and staying gone the first violent incident before he and I got married more than 30 years ago..
I have looked up what abused women feel are reasons for staying or accepting such degrading treatment and saw myself in several sentences. Then add my own FOO issues.. ::)
When the mirror work starts on yourself and you focus on you and not them. I think things start to make more sense. I feel this forum was a great place to vent, journal, reflect and all of that moves us to heal.
Currently trying to wrap my brain around what I feel was wasted time on my part to spend all that time, all those years with someone who didn't care about me or anybody else. And isn't capable of doing so.
So, no there is no stand here.
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Such a wide range of thoughtful perspectives! There is so much that has been shared here - so much to think about.
I wanted to cycle back and clarify that when I referred to the inherent contradictions we live with, I wasn't actually thinking of RCR being contradictory. But I didn't expand on that very clearly.
What I was thinking about was the role and influence of time, and how time is referenced here, and how we al live with the duelling realities that time plays.
And I would now add how we make individual decisions regarding how to treat time.
Those decisions are tremendously varied based on the range of values, beliefs and attitudes that we hold as individuals; and the influences, experiences, tools, and knowledge we have developed to a particular moment.
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The common theme I've read with reconciliation stories and as RCR pointed out, is the woman moved on, improved themselves and balanced no contact with boundaries. These MLCers need boundaries. They are manipulators and it's all about them even when you think they are handing you a bone. I only speak, email, or text with H if it's about our S5, health insurance, or the separation. I do not contact him otherwise or discuss anything else. I don't ask him how he is. The other day he tried to slip into a conversation "how are you doing?" and I promptly told him I had to go--in a cordial kind manner. I've flipped my lid a few times and made an ass of myself but recently am nothing but kind and courteous. Many of the reconciliation stories I've read, the LBS becomes not only a force to reckon with, but also a confident content safe person. When the MLCer has limited contact and boundaries are enforced, the LBS does mirror work and is too busy to even have a conversation with MLCer, the more the MLCer is left to wonder what is going on. The LBS becomes a mystery--like the OW once was. But now the OW's true colors are glaring in their face and the grass isn't greener on that side. In fact, in my case, the grass is a dead brown mess. I think LBS who remain humdrum, clingy, seemingly desperate, b!tc#y have less of a chance at reconciliation. Also, we LBSers need to improve our physical appearance if needed. The last few years of my marriage I rarely dressed nice, never wore makeup, let my hair look like a mess, gained weight, stopped exercising, and because I have health issues sometimes didn't shower for three days. Now I am getting in shape, bought nice outfits and jewelry, smell nice, do my hair and makeup every day, and even got laser treatments (to remove sun spots, broken capillaries, and fine lines) and botox (I did not get it for him, I am doing all of this for me!). I look and feel great. I know H sees all this and is baffled. I am the woman he fell in love with so many years ago, not the frumpy sickly wife he dealt with for so long. I caught him checking out my shapely butt a few times when he was dropping off our S5. All of this helped ME feel attractive and desirable since H stopped having sex with me and withheld love and affection. I am always smiling when I see him. He, however, always looks like he just cried and is not happy. He has lost weight, though, in an attempt to keep OW. He had a fat gut the last few years of marriage. So that is my two cents. :)
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I think self improvement/adornment/beautification is great but just want to add for anyone already suffering from self blame and regrets, I don't think every or even most LBS looked bad at bomb drop. I think there are some real beauties represented here.
And even if you were -- by your standards -- frumpy, be compassionate and loving to that pre bomb drop self. Most parents have some seriously frumpy years -- if not decades -- and many manage to love each other through them.
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More, it's better in the long run when we take care of ourselves and leave them to themselves. I have found that in my case, hard lines and boundaries really work. I'm also in "ghost mode", so he knows nothing. My kids are Dim and Dark, that helps them with their adjustments as well. My XH is also with a "hot mess", and I do believe in letting them have exactly what they want with the AD/OP.
Not knowing what's going on is the key. It shows that you do have a life, can live without them. I don't believe in punishing them, usually the AD/OP is often punishment enough. Mirror work is empowering and if more LBSers did that in the time they spend focusing on the MLCer, the more calm and peaceful life becomes. Keep in mind that they really believe that: no one else wants us, or that we will always be there for them despite the OP.
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The importance and value of hope:
For Frankl, striving to find meaning is the most important motivation in human beings. During his time in Nazi death camps, Frankl noticed that prisoners were more likely to survive if their survival had meaning....... prisoners who were able to retain a degree of hope, a reason to live or some vision of the future tended to have a better chance of survival than those who had lost all hope
From The Soul in Anguish by Lionel Corbett 2015 discussing Viktor Frankl's work.
I disagree with the idea that having hope is an impediment to one's healing.
This discussion does not seem to take into consideration the knowledge that we have accumulated about MLC and especially the stories of those who have come through their crisis and what they have said about the time when they were in the MLC fog.
Whatever the "odds" are and I do not see any statistics to support what the odds are one way or another, the importance of continuing to have hope for some LBSers is a healthy way to live happily and with joy. It does not make them stuck, enablers, conflict avoiders or codependent.
We have often used the analogy of being a lighthouse and the work that the LBSer does will allow them to become stronger and capable of dealing with the depression that is at the root of MLC in their spouse.
Life is a continuous journey towards self-actualization according to Maslow. One's life should always be to work towards being the best that you can be, to growing and learning more about oneself and society. This should always be occurring in every stage of one's life.
There are many other studies that look at how hope can actually help people to heal. So taking away people's hope, which is what I feel this blog does, in my opinion is damaging to LBSer's ability to heal.
24 For in hope we were saved. Now hope that sees for itself is not hope. For who hopes for what one sees?
25 But if we hope for what we do not see, we wait with endurance./i] Romans 8:24-25
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I think LBS who remain humdrum, clingy, seemingly desperate, b*tc#y have less of a chance at reconciliation. Also, we LBSers need to improve our physical appearance if needed.
Understand the premise from which you are coming from. It is natural in the early days for the LBS to make changes such as these if they think they are necessary - more often than not they are reactionary changes and cannot always be sustained as the LBS "grows and heals"
However the MLCer wil notice the changes but will also watch to see if those changes last.
It is very common to look at self and blame self at BD and not long after BD and if losing weight, keeping fit, really taking physical care is important for self then by all means do it.
I didn't think I was that frumpy or dowdy at BD, certainly not over weight and a financially "independent " woman with a successful career and 3 lovely grown children; I have never in our 29 years together been a huge "make-up" person and find the gym etc boring preferring to do musical theatre - (that's the make- up time!)
However I took to heart a comment in one of the articles about listening to the MLCer's complaints and choosing which ones were "valid" and which could be "discarded" .
H accused me of being frumpy - I was naturally devastated and he qualified it with me not wearing dresses or skirts. Of course this was projection; OW was and is much more overweight than me but she wears dresses all of the time.
So my reactionary self changed to dresses and skirts. At first it was designed to "wake my MLCer up"
Of course it didn't but I learned to wear them more often and discovered what styles really suited me and began to wear them more often for work and other occasions. I learned to show off my legs with jeggings/short skirts/dressses with tights and boots. Now it is second nature.
Has it made a difference to my H? Of course not.
Are we more likely to reconcile because of it - No? Does that matter? No.
Has it made a difference to me - yes it has. Have I been able to sustain the changes ? Yes - the ones I knew were right for me and not for the MLCer.
I am back to being the confident independent person I was before BD; just dressed a little bit more sassily from time to time.
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I haven't seen anyone suggest that hope is an impediment to healing, XYZCF. All of us have hope or we wouldn't have come to this forum. Hope, without awareness however, can make the difference between a person struggling to survive and having some semblance of stabilty. Maslow makes clear that a person must first have basic needs met.
Viktor Frankl is a good example, because one of his major points is that nothing has meaning until we apply meaning to it. Meaning (or hope) ultimately cannot come from the external without being susceptible to being dashed or taken away. Each of us applies meaning to our own situations. Frankl created the meaning that he believed helped him to survive Auschwitz, when others in the same circumstances applied different meaning. The meaning itself did not come from anyone else. That was the key to his survival.
So while the blog provides information, so that each person who comes here can make informed decisions about their lives, security and economic stability, it does not take away hope. And meaning is not something that RCR or anyone else can apply to a person's life or be responsible for. That is something one must determine, and hold onto, for oneself or people are simply applying another person's meaning to their life and depending on someone else's hope and faith rather than their own to carry them through.
If one LBS determines that the meaning of MLC is to torture and destroy them, then it likely will. If another LBS determines that the meaning of MLC is to be a catalyst for growth and development, that will be their truth. Each of us holds the key to our own meaning and thus our own hope. The message coming from the board can't determine that for others, because varying issues are at play in every individual circumstance. Different LBSs have different situations, different levels of economic security and resources, different career, housing, and income options, have children of varying ages and circumstances, are of varying ages and degrees of health, are from different states and countries with different matrimonial and child custody laws and differing provisions for healthcare, retirement, etc. Each of those differences must be considered by each LBS when making the decisions we must make along the way to protect ourselves. For RCR to send a message that differs from what is bearing out is potentially damaging to the LBS and his/her future as well as their children's.
Legal action is expensive, it is frightening and anxiety producing, and is a signifcant amount of effort at a time when an LBS is already overwhelmed. It is very tempting to avoid all of that when one is in such a vulnerable place, especially if a person thinks it is likely, or there is a 50/50 chance, that a spouse will return anyway. That has been a mistake for a number of people including some on this forum and by the time they realized that it was too late, money had been squandered by the MLCer, a family home lost, a shared business run into the ground, marital assets destroyed or hidden, the OW pregnant and demanding child support along with the LBS needing it for her children, martial debt significantly increased unbeknownst to the LBS, etc.
People must protect themselves, and especially the less monied spouse, which is still more commonly women, due to child bearing and rearing. Separation and divorce thrust many women and children into poverty worldwide, so one of the most supportive hopeful acts that we can do on this forum is to educate each other, sooner than later, about the realities and encourage self protection (put on one's oxygen mask first). Then, from that more stable/secure place, a person can have a sense of peace, as well as hope and can stand as long as one chooses, knowing that they and their children are more protected from the financial fallout that often accompanies MLC.
One can say that an LBS who is not aware, from the start, that their marriage is less likely to reconcile, will still act expediently to protect themselves, but that is not always the case. Believing/hoping all will work out, deters some from taking action until it's too late or their financial situation is deteriorated resulting in a much lessor settlement than was possible early on. Time and again, people post here saying that they wish they had protected themselves earlier, but I don't recall anyone saying it was a mistake that they had.
Hope is encouraged here, but an LBS must also secure themselves, and the motivation to do so sometimes only comes when one faces reality and genuinely understands the odds. None of us wants to take away hope, but hope without knowledge and action to protect oneself has devastated some LBSs adding to the trauma and stress, making it more difficult to stand, and doing nothing to preserve hope or increase the chance for reconciliation.
Many here still have children dependent on us for a roof over their heads, food in their stomachs, their education, healthcare, and general wellbeing. Early on, we have to be able to face that our marriage may not reconcile so we can act accordingly for their sake and for our own. This is separate from the very personal decision to stand, the meaning people apply to their individual life and their hope and faith in the outcome of their own marriage. Where there is life, there is always hope.
Phoenix
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Phoenix, I have to say that that is one of the best posts that I've read so far. All of your points are valid.
Here's my take, farther up and further in.
I do have a word of caution for newbies who have minor children. RCR did not have minor children at the time of her husband's crisis, waiting is a luxury you do not have. Divorce or get a separation agreement with child support quickly to protect your kids. Hesitation will only make yours and your children's lives more difficult if you are forced to divorce.
In the beginning we're all grasping at straws, it's natural. I also believe that it's dangerous to tell people who have minor children to not give the MLCer the divorce. As I recall RCR didn't have any children at the time of her initial writings. In my case, not only did the XH hide money ( knowledge abuse ), he also found a way to subtract the car payment and a few other things from the child support ( financial and economic abuse ). It has made a detrimental difference in my ability to get back on my feet. Not to mention all the verbal and emotional abuse that the kids and I had suffered through the initial stages.
My point is, had I acted earlier, this wouldn't have happened. I do have hope as well that he will wake up, snap out or whatever. Do I know if he'll want to come back? No. Does it matter to me? No. I've had to start over at a disadvantage. You have to protect yourself and your kids before it's too late. Many of us have found that out the hard way.
I'm all for having hope, you'll need it if you're going to stand. Not all standers need to stay focused on the MLCers. I really believe that working on yourself, without worrying about what they see or think, is important. There's too much emphasis on the MLCer on this forum, and not enough on the LBSer. Especially those who have come to grips with the fact that they have moved on, and are now starting a new life. Without the MLCer. That's commendable, but it seems that it's a threat to the fixed mindset that many here share. Having a growth mindset has helped me, and others that have been able to get a grip on themselves to heal.
Healing is going to be done in different ways for different people. I really believe that the MLCer will be punished enough having to stay with the AD/OP, dealing with their personal demons, and the consequences of their actions. Fantasies have a way of fading fast when the reality of being with that person daily sets in. Reality is a cruel teacher when you refuse to face yourself and what's really bothering you. The OP is not the answer and will prove to make a bad situation, worse. We need to make sure we also stay focused on the real world and don't get involved in the fantasy that we will somehow know if and when they will come back. Only the MLCer knows that. Now that's a dose of reality that everyone needs.
The articles and the forum are evolving, and that's a good thing. The context can stay the same, but some of the data has not panned out. In many ways, RCR is conducting a social experiment. That was probably not her intention, but it's the result nonetheless. So far, there haven't been many happy endings. Having said that, it's not over yet. So this is a good place to get a feel for how things can or may go. I used the forum as a crystal ball if you will. Because there were a few women here who were ahead of me in a similar situation. I learned what to do, and more importantly what not to do. For that I'm truly grateful. Learning from other people's mistakes and successes is really a plus on this forum. At least we should all be able to agree on that.
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1T....
Thank you for your post here. I could not agree with you more.
Very well said.
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Phoenix, I have to say that that is one of the best posts that I've read so far. All of your points are valid.
Here's my take, farther up and further in.
I do have a word of caution for newbies who have minor children. RCR did not have minor children at the time of her husband's crisis, waiting is a luxury you do not have. Divorce or get a separation agreement with child support quickly to protect your kids. Hesitation will only make yours and your children's lives more difficult if you are forced to divorce.
In the beginning we're all grasping at straws, it's natural. I also believe that it's dangerous to tell people who have minor children to not give the MLCer the divorce. As I recall RCR didn't have any children at the time of her initial writings. In my case, not only did the XH hide money ( knowledge abuse ), he also found a way to subtract the car payment and a few other things from the child support ( financial and economic abuse ). It has made a detrimental difference in my ability to get back on my feet. Not to mention all the verbal and emotional abuse that the kids and I had suffered through the initial stages.
My point is, had I acted earlier, this wouldn't have happened. I do have hope as well that he will wake up, snap out or whatever. Do I know if he'll want to come back? No. Does it matter to me? No. I've had to start over at a disadvantage. You have to protect yourself and your kids before it's too late. Many of us have found that out the hard way.
I have been trying to stay out of this discussion because quite truthfully I didn't understand the point of the post. This is a forum to provide support for people during a tumultuous time in their lives. I didn't feel that anyone suggested that there was any guarantee of reconciliation.
I do feel I need to say something about this statement. I have consistently said providing blanket pronouncements about how to act or behave is dangerous. In this case the suggestion made here is that a speedy separation agreement and/or divorce is always a good idea when someone has minor children. I think this is very irresponsible advice. Just because in your situation it is the best advice doesn't mean everyone should go down that path. In my case the longer I stay married the better off my children and I are financially because my husband's income and net worth has continued to grow. I also don't have an mlcer who is out to get me or the kids. I recognize that my situation is not anyone else's which is why I don't tell anyone they must handle it the way I have.
I've seen suggestions that pavers are not growing or are in the way of the mlcer or that lbs are conflict avoiding, codependent, enablers. For a forum built on support I find this offensive. Believe it or not you can stand and grow, pave the way and grow, maintain a relationship with your mlcer and still get out of the way of their crisis.
I can't understand why on a forum that was built on support we constantly make statements that put lbs against lbs instead of creating respect for each of our situations and the myriad of ways we can all choose to successfully weather the crisis. For the record, my idea of success had nothing to do with reconciliation but everything to do with me coming out on the other side a stronger person who has behaved in ways she can be proud of.
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I have to say after reading all these posts have changed how I originally felt about RCR's new post.
I felt the same way nah did when I first read it. If I had read this as a newbie, not sure I would have stuck around.
I needed hope.
I needed to read they can come back.
I didn't want advice on divorce.
Now having read Phoenix's reply, and a few others, I find I'm agree with putting more reality out there. I've seen too many LBS's who did not take the seriousness of their situation to heart and did nothing until it was too late. Some were either in denial, too hopeful or afraid to give their spouse the wrong idea and thought it would push them further away. Some took a big financial hit.
Nah, did not sit around waiting for her H to come around. She divorced him right away and in my opinion she did the right thing for various reasons. One, the MLCer is more apt to not fight you over money, houses, alimony, kids, etc., because their guilt is huge in the beginning.
They have not gotten to the "full entitlement" phase yet.
Mind you I have never advocated divorce, nor have I ever been a fan of NC (unless there is physical abuse), but I see once that entitlement kicks in, or they become seriously involved with an OP who is whispering in their ear, they start feeling like they want everything....on their terms.
The reality is that the vast majority of us are going to end up divorced. I'm not saying we can't reconcile, but we most likely will end up divorced. No matter how well we played our hand.
So maybe putting this information out there right away could save some people from having false hope that their marriage will be different.
Didn't we all think that? Again I'm not saying the relationship can't be reconciled, but the harsh reality is it will probably be after a divorce.
If there are children involved or money is going to be an issue maybe divorcing sooner rather than later is not a bad idea for some people.
I'm not saying within 5 days, like nah did ::), but after the shock has worn off some.
If the MLCer wants to come back, they will find a way.
I don't think this information is going to scare anyone off, like someone said, in the beginning we are only taking information we want and leave the rest behind until we are ready to accept it.
So I see no harm in putting it out there if it can help someone.
I also agree not everyone on this site has a true MLCer. I'm sure there are also spouses who really were very unhappy in their marriage and just wanted out. Those won't be coming back.
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RT I stand by my advice to newbies, there are more here that have been placed in a dangerous financial situation than have not. If your H is not out to get you, than kudos to you. It seems that the majority of us have not been so blessed. That advice is solely for newbies that have spouses that are ruining them financially. You and I have had our run ins, so this is no surprise that you would pick this topic to expound upon. But I digress... This is a precautionary measure in the case of a forced divorce, which many of us here on the forum have to in the end accept.
Like most have said about the forum: take what you need, and do with it what you will. Your stance as stated is based on YOUR situation, and it's the exception, not the rule. If my advice is dangerous, than the concern is yours being even more so. How do you know that your H isn't doing this to you in secret? You don't. Therefore, until you have a breakthrough in your situation I would suggest that you don't "become a stumbling block" to others. Biblical reference intended.
Just my 2 cents.
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I know I thought that Thunder.
After BD then impending D.
I thought the ex is smarter than this and he'll figure it out sooner than the other men I was reading about here..he didn't. MY situation will be different..it wasn't.
I even laughed when I found out who the exow was six years ago and told my oldest D " He will not throw his family over for her"
But he did.
Its good advice to protect yourself and any minor children at every level from any form of abuse they seem to so freely dish out if you allow it.
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I think that it is probably best to divorce right away in most instances. At the very least, to retain a very good lawyer. One key MLC fantasy is the easy divorce involving no lawyers. I agree that the LBS main goal should be financial protection.
One advantage I can see about doing this later is that the LBS is often more together emotionally, which can be helpful in navigating issues. I have read that oftentimes when someone is blindsided by a divorce they have a hard time advocating for themselves.
Also, I think that a year in (my situation) the MLCer is more of a mess and sloppy with his lies. Many are so arrogant and self assured at bomb drop they don't read as crazy. My ex now looks very unwell and does not come across as together.
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M3G, There is good reason the believe that RTs point is based on the fact she is one of the few members who actually is a professional therapist. And behaves in a way that is consistent with the ethical foundation of the profession. So, she does not give advice.
She has, however, pointed out it is dangerous to give advice.
And especially advice based on your individual experience and, dare I say, individual bias.
One of the foundational principles of good mental health is not to make big decisions while in an emotional state.
Telling people to divorce while BD is early is advising them to make a huge decision while in a tremendously vulnerable state.
re: your Biblical reference. It is helpful to keep in mind other points of guidance, too. Such as eyes, and the planks and specks found in them.
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Really,
I hope I didn't come off as making a blanket statement with what I said.
I do not think a quick D or a quick separation is necessary for everyone. Not everyone, such as yourself, needs that.
If a person is ok financially and is not worried about the MLCer wanting to take the kids away then I certainly would not divorce quickly.
I just meant there are LBS's who could benefit from it.
Also, even if you did divorce for financial reasons you can still stand and try to work on connecting with your xspouse. No law against that. :)
Just like NC is good for some people and bad for others. All up to us and what works.
I would never judge another for what they decide.
It's good we're getting so many different opinions on this subject.
RCR will have her work cut out for her when she gets back. lol :)
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I think that it is probably best to divorce right away in most instances. At the very least, to retain a very good lawyer. One key MLC fantasy is the easy divorce involving no lawyers. I agree that the LBS main goal should be financial protection.
One advantage I can see about doing this later is that the LBS is often more together emotionally, which can be helpful in navigating issues. I have read that oftentimes when someone is blindsided by a divorce they have a hard time advocating for themselves.
Also, I think that a year in (my situation) the MLCer is more of a mess and sloppy with his lies. Many are so arrogant and self assured at bomb drop they don't read as crazy. My ex now looks very unwell and does not come across as together.
This is also the reason why a separation agreement with child support is good for those who aren't being pushed, but threatened with divorce. It's a 2 fold protection: you can stay married, but are insured that your income won't be affected as much as it would if there were no agreement.
I got divorced last year. I had been BD 3 times before the divorce, and my XH was hellbent on taking everything. I was blessed with a lawyer that told me to file first in my state, but not petition. This turned out to be a godsend.
We kept things in our state, and it cost him a small fortune to get everything done. All the money he had taken from myself and the girls was eaten up in legal costs. Harsh lesson, but saved me and the girls from not being taken care of somewhat financially.
Had I waited, he would have filed from where he was and gotten everything, including custody of my kids with me In Absentia. And, yes he tried. You never know what they are capable of.
I don't believe that any of them are in their right mind, so it's up to us to be in ours. Take the precautions, and by all means retain a lawyer. You may not need them, but you do need to know what your options are. No matter which way it goes, forewarned is forearmed.
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My apologies if I was not clear enough, ReallyTrying. Protecting oneself does not always mean a speedy divorce or separation. I did not divorce for nearly 6 years. It depends on the state/country one lives in and what options are availalbe, and what the MLCer will agree to. In my case, we worked out a Separation Agreement that was held by our attorneys, but not filed with the court until my H filed for divorce years later. But all had been determined--and was being adhered to--in advance of that for my and D's protection. My agreement stated that child support would be based on income numbers at the commencement of a divorce, but that too was a calculated risk, given exH could have destroyed his finances by then.
Additionally, depending on the laws--and sometimes the judges--in your area, the income a spouse was making when you initially separated may be used rather than the increasing income over the years. For example, if a spouse has moved out and can demonstrate entirely separate living for a year or more, some MLC attorneys have successfully argued that the date of "separation " be retroactively applied and that the income as of that earlier time period be used for purposed of child support and/or maintenance, which is why I was more protected by my separation agreement than just leaving things to chance, but that is only because my calculations about him ended up correct in that instance. Many things I thought I knew about him ended up to not hold true. It could also have gone badly by specifying the use of the later income as MLCers tend to go downhill for awhile, including financially.
The point is not to make anyone do anything. It is to better ensure the LBSs are fully aware so that she or he can make the best decisions for themselves and their children. If, knowing the risks and benefits, you have determined that your best and most secure course of action is not to have a formal agreement, that is by all means your decision to make. The concern is those LBSs who don't fully know or consider their whole picture in its entirety until it's too late.
I hope that better clarifies,
Phoenix
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I have consistently said providing blanket pronouncements about how to act or behave is dangerous.
I think that this is generally true in life and under normal situations a person who is thinking clearly and has a good sense of self can weigh the options for themselves and take what they need and leave the rest. However, (speaking from my experience) the LBS is usually a hot mess and desperate to save their relationship and will try anything that they read in order to accomplish this. I remember all of the suggestions/advice that I got in the early days and how I tried (and failed) to implement the suggestions and felt worse because I was clearly not getting it because it worked for other people but not me. As I grew and understood more I could read the suggestions/advice with a grain of salt and try the ones that made sense to my situation.
Here's my take:
- Not everyone who comes here has a spouse in MLC.
I completely agree but the LBS does not figure this out for a very long time but they apply the knowledge and suggestions to their situation - this why we should to be careful with blanket statements because many of us don't know what we are really dealing with for years.
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RCR herself, on this thread, said this topic was controversial on the moderator board.
And posted it anyway.
If the point was to spread the controversy from the moderator board to the general membership, it has succeeded. Well done.
To be honest, I have no idea what the point of the blog post was.
The forum and the articles make it very clear there are no guarantees.
The post wasn't about hope.
The word was used only once, to give you hope Chuck and I reconciled.
It wasn't about patience.
It wasn't about forgiveness.
And it sure as heck hasn't encouraged modelling the very thing she said was most important, which is agape love and loving them home.
The people who talk about loving their spouses unconditionally, and behaving in ways that love them home, are scoffed at. So they go quiet on the forum, or leave.
Frankly, I was very discouraged by the whole thing.
I am sure LP will come along and remind me that I was the first one to say 'just a minute', because I am a 'trouble maker' who RCR has had to "call out" before.
And that's discouraging, too.
Because I'm just another long term stander who, after more than two long hard lonely years is still holding space for her H. Who every day makes the choice to grow into a healthier person. Responsible to the obligations before BD, trying to be on good terms with other people, her self and her God.
Knowing bloody well her H left.
He fits the MLC profile to a T.
The reality is there is NO sign he will return.
NO regret for the hurt he caused.
I NO longer have a comfortable home that us mine.
I NO longer can retire when I wanted.
I NO longer even have the financial security I had before I met him 20 years ago.
And I NO longer believe HS is actually supportive of people like me who are living their lives well, not initiating a divorce, and maintaining hope that it is possible, no matter how unlikely, that their spouse will return.
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The point is not to make anyone do anything. It is to better ensure the LBSs are fully aware so that she or he can make the best decisions for themselves and their children. If, knowing the risks and benefits, you have determined that your best and most secure course of action is not to have a formal agreement, that is by all means your decision to make. The concern is those LBSs who don't fully know or consider their whole picture in its entirety until it's too late.
Well put Phoenix.
Knowledge is power and we should always be aware of all of the options - especially the ones that we don't really want.
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I agree, Phoenix.
How many times have you hear "I wish I would have filed sooner?"
Sometimes the MICer spends a lot of money they can't re-coop or has time to hide their money.
One on here was making $3,000 a week and before she divorced him he quit his job and took a job making $500 (or something like that) a month so he wouldn't have to pay as much in child support. They can be very resourceful when it benefits them.
One had the laws change and it was not beneficial to them to have waited so long.
Like you said we all need good information to make a smart decision towards our future.
I don't feel it's pushing divorce, just putting out information that could help protect them.
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Oh Onward, please don't feel like that.
I have huge respect for anyone who can hang in there for years (as long as their living their lives), if my H hadn't divorced me I would be one of the long time standers. ;D
I would not have divorced him.
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And I NO longer believe HS is actually supportive of people like me who are living their lives well, not initiating a divorce, and maintaining hope that it is possible, no matter how unlikely, that their spouse will return.
This saddens me Onward.
I am someone who believes in supporting people in what they want regardless of what my opinion is of the situation. Who am I to judge what you should or should not do with your life. I feel obligated to point out all the information to help make sure that the course of action has been thoroughly thought through - I worry that people make decisions on limited or skewed information but if it has been thought through, more power to you.
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I also am in agreement with Phoenix. I used the word "quickly" not "immediately". Quickly is in the eye of the beholder, and therefore relative.
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And I NO longer believe HS is actually supportive of people like me who are living their lives well, not initiating a divorce, and maintaining hope that it is possible, no matter how unlikely, that their spouse will return.
Onward, know that I am not being facetious at all when I say this.
You are a long-term stander at this point, you are very concretely clear in where you are because of MLC, and what your beliefs about MLC are. You clearly don't need a blog post or guru to reinforce those beliefs - you ARE the guru of your own life now.
Perhaps the fact that you have strong opinions, that you communicate with finesse and clarity, is a sign that it's time for YOU to be the representative of people in your same mindset. Maybe this is a sign that if you were blogging and sharing your perspective, there would be an audience that could benefit greatly from it. I don't know if RCR is open to the idea of "guest blogging", but if not, I had a lot of interest awhile back when I started a Wordpress blog about this last year (https://iamready2transform.wordpress.com/). I may start that one up again, too. It was cathartic and something I could go a little deeper into my own processing than I could my thread here.
I am not in any way saying that the forum is not here to support you - I actually think it is, but it's calling you to put out there where you would like support (just like you are doing today). The squeaky wheel gets the oil. I'm no longer a mentor or moderator, and sometimes I think this is really no longer a place for me either (over five years in, focusing on other things in life, and not wanting to revisit BD everyday in the newbie posts I read). But my connections to others and genuine care for their stories have kept me logged in.
RCR chose to broaden the forum to include a lot of different types of situations, which I think include both sides of the spectrum. This IS your place, too. RCR can't please everyone all of the time, but she still has the right to make her site about anything she wants it to be. Controversy isn't always a negative (it rarely is, I think). Ultimately conversations like this take us to a deeper place.
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I am sure LP will come along and remind me that I was the first one to say 'just a minute', because I am a 'trouble maker' who RCR has had to "call out" before.
Onward,
If that's how you see yourself, so be it. I'm not interested in being part of your repeated pattern.
How does your projecting those statements on to me encourage a reasonable, intelligent, and frank discussion when I have said nothing in this discussion? How does that serve your needs?
If you are struggling with hope, only you can remedy that. No one else is responsible for your feelings.
Lp
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The point is not to make anyone do anything. It is to better ensure the LBSs are fully aware so that she or he can make the best decisions for themselves and their children. If, knowing the risks and benefits, you have determined that your best and most secure course of action is not to have a formal agreement, that is by all means your decision to make. The concern is those LBSs who don't fully know or consider their whole picture in its entirety until it's too late.
Well put Phoenix.
Knowledge is power and we should always be aware of all of the options - especially the ones that we don't really want.
No argument from me here. I am all for information. I am simply against making blanket recommendations about how people should behave. No one solution will work for everyone. Especially for someone in emotional crisis we need to be careful not to give advice as though it is the one true way to handle things.
I would like to say - though I know better at this point but if I am being instructed to not offer an opinion until there is a "breakthrough in my situation" dare I say that if applied to everyone that would render the forum largely silent.
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R2T, that is very kind of you to say. Particularly given the example you yourself set.
Unfortunately, as most long term standers can attest, our stories get a little boring, and don't feed the drama machine that is necessary for any publishing enterprise.
"Today I found ways to continue to live in peace" is too long for a bumper sticker, and much too short for a blog! 8)
LP, I have zero struggles with hope.
Where I sometimes struggle is with giving up.
People talk about FOO issues, but rarely is FOO framed as benefits. One of my FOO issues is
I am fully accountable for my own life.
And I am not a quitter.
I am not projecting, I am quoting. You *are* part of a repeated pattern.
You have said something in this discussion. You asked me to clarify something at the beginning of the thread.
Which was immediately followed by a post from RCR.
RCR rarely posts here. But she does appear when I express my views. Often shortly after you do.
Once is a coincidence.
Twice is a surprise.
A third time is definitely a pattern.
And this exchange is predictable.
It is easy for me to answer your question. I have a strong desire to root for the underdog. I am good at identifying patterns. And I don't like when people are treated unkindly. This particular conversation satisfies a need to point that out, and reaffirm my self-concept as an independent thinker who is neither a coward or easily silenced into compliance.
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Each time a stander brings up that they do not feel supported on a site whose message was help for those who are against divorce, to help educate the public about MLC, they are singled out and told that they are wrong. I have seen this occur several times and I am seeing it occur again.
I received an email this am from a HS member, a relative newbie, who stated that RCR's post was "not hopeful". I have heard on this thread from others who have stated that this message goes against what they though HS was about.
I can see how the site has changed to meet the demands of those who wish to discuss their dating experiences, to others who wish to condemn their MLCer without acknowledging that there is a pathology going on in this situation...these are not marriage break ups that just were not meant to be.
Perhaps the message has become so watered down now that it is not useful, especially not useful to those of us who are standing for our marriages.
There is a huge division between the two sides.
Standing is not easy. Trusting the process is not easy.
I suspect, and this is my own opinion, that people who still believe in their marriages no longer write or stay on this site because of the change in the message as the site has expanded to try and meet the needs of all people...regardless of whether it goes against the mission statement or what used to be the intent of this site.
There are a few brave people who are willing to write how they feel about what they observe and their opinions are as valuable as the ones who see things differently.
It saddened me this morning, that this HS member who wrote to me, that when she read RCR's blog, she found that it diminished her hope. There are enough situations in the world where we are told that we are ridiculous for holding out any hope for our beloved spouses...too bad this has also become one of them.
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RCR herself, on this thread, said this topic was controversial on the moderator board.
And posted it anyway.
"Controversial" in that we we had the same kind of discussion as here, exchanging thoughts. Those are the constructive conversations had when varying experiences, philosophies and perspectives are involved. It's how we learn more about each other and and think more deeply about important issues.
To be honest, I have no idea what the point of the blog post was.
This discussion demonstrates the point of the blog--a revisiting, and deeper exploration, of some things that RCR may have thought and said in the beginning that are evolving with time and may need clarifying so that the wellbeing of the LBS remain the priority. I actually don't find the blog being in conflict with RCR's previous statements, but rather a reminder so that people are not forgetting that, while standing, there are also issues of security to be mindful of given the majority of marriages may not reconcile, and protecting oneself in the meantime is a good thing-- even if the majority do reconcile.
The forum and the articles make it very clear there are no guarantees.
You are correct. This is just an extension and clarification of what has already been stated because not everyone takes from the articles what is intended. We see and hear what we want to in difficult times and this has been to the detriment of some LBSs, so I believe RCR is trying to make sure no one is left vulnerable due to messages here that are not clear.
The post wasn't about hope.
The word was used only once, to give you hope Chuck and I reconciled.
The entire forum exists due to hope and nothing in the article changes that or the fact that each marriage here has the same chance as any other marriage to reconcile and each LBS here has the same chance as every other LBS to live a happy fulfilled life reconciled or not.
It wasn't about patience.
Again, the board is nothing if not about patience. This is not a short term journey.
It wasn't about forgiveness.And it sure as heck hasn't encouraged modelling the very thing she said was most important, which is agape love and loving them home.
Forgiveness, agape/unconditional love are not mutually exclusive to protecting oneself and being informed. Standing, by it's very nature, is an act of love and forgiveness or one would not have a way through to a renewed marriage.
The people who talk about loving their spouses unconditionally, and behaving in ways that love them home, are scoffed at. So they go quiet on the forum, or leave.
I'm sorry this has been your experience, Onward. Regardless of my own path, I have never scoffed at anyone else for theirs. We are all just trying to do the best we can in impossible circumstances, many beyond our control. I genuinely believe we are fundamentally coming from the same place:
Our lives have imploded. Our hearts and families are broken. We want to heal and be secure and have our lives back. We want that for each other. We are all trying to find our way there and to do our best to help others do the same. We are imperfect. We don't have all the answers, but ultimately we want to be healed and happy and want that for each other no matter the individual paths taken.
Knowing bloody well her H left.
He fits the MLC profile to a T.
The reality is there is NO sign he will return.
NO regret for the hurt he caused.
I NO longer can retire when I wanted.
I NO longer even have the financial security I had before I met him 20 years ago.
Same here my friend and it's been 6.5 years without the companionship of a partner. I know much of the the walk that you walk and I respect you in the decisions you make and the reasons that you make them.
And I NO longer believe HS is actually supportive of people like me who are living their lives well, not initiating a divorce, and maintaining hope that it is possible, no matter how unlikely, that their spouse will return.
This has not been my experience of the board, but I validate that each of us has our own experience of it.
Wishing you strength, hope, peace and healing on your journey, Onward.
Phoenix
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The awesome thing about controversy is that it causes people to think. People are too emotional these days, and it clouds judgment. Bearing this in mind, this whole experience is showing us all what we're made of. I'm all for reconciliation, but for some of us, it's just not going to happen. Why?
- Some have outgrown the MLCers, and have no desire to stop their personal progress and growth to help them catch up.
- Some realize that they were not married to someone that they want to continue a relationship with because of the crisis.
- Some will find someone new, and want to explore that as an option.
- Some will help their MLCer get the help they need, and find that they do not like/love the new person.
- Some will marry someone else.
- Some will find the MLCer is just too broken and will create a new relationship with someone else.
- Some will reconcile but feel that friendship is the best option.
- Etc, etc, etc...
Reconciliation is in the hands of the MLCer. Period. You can be there, or not. You can maintain contact, or not. You can divorce, or not. It really is up to them in the end. No amount of anything will change that.
Sometimes support comes from the standpoint of being honest with each other as well. Not just for the MLCer but the LBSer. As an LBSer, we also go through our own crisis.
It's fair to say that there is a fine line between empathy and enabling. In other words encouraging forward moving, and encouraging staying stuck. We can't keep going around in circles with those who don't want to get off the MLC wheel. It's not healthy for the rest of us.
There's only so much hand holding, shoulder to cry on, and listening that we can do before we tell each other to get a hold of ourselves. To get a grip if you will. Just like a smart doctor will eventually take you off of pain meds to help you to heal, so must this group. We have to stop being Vicodin to those who are addicted to the forum as a means of easing the pain.
You have to face the pain, your brain can't handle the pain blocks for too long. That's why the MLCer is now doing what they are doing: cognitively they just can no longer handle the pain and fantasy is now their only means of escape. Their brains have short circuited and the memory lapses ( or fog ) is how they cope. The brain is only supposed to experience trauma once, process it, and move beyond it. They either can't or won't allow this to happen.
Either way, if reconciliation is indeed possible: isn't it wiser to be the healthy one? The one that has healed completely? There are still many broken people on this forum that could use an honest assessment of their situation through the eyes of an unbiased source. Anything that is said here should be taken into the context of how you want to use it.
Just my 2 cents.
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Phoenix, you are right, and perception plays a part in any communication.
But I have rarely seen members who are standers (and I almost hate to use the word because it's become a divisive - a sad irony -- and because there really isn't any acknowledged common understanding of what it means) make the kinds of comments against a person who has 'moved on', that those who 'move on' make against 'standers'.
It's baffling.
And instead of hearing the people who say "I find this discouraging", or even acknowledging that it might have that effect, those posters are invalidated with detailed responses for why that wasn't the intent and they shouldn't feel that way.
I know persuasion theory enough to get that there is a tremendous amount of cognitive dissonance on this board.
But the very act of explaining to me why the blog was written, and then saying that wasn't your experience is what I am talking about. It takes effort to hear you, because the very first statement in that blog post was tremendously discouraging.
Even RCR, in her post that specifically referred to me stated that my comments didn't provoke thought, but that they pushed back. Well, they weren't push back. Yet, nobody has answered those questions.
Maybe the moderators forget we don't see what you do. And most moderators are way further in their own journey than the majority of members.
I don't see examples people going through the 'moved on, kick them to the curb, divorce post haste' threads and explaining the intent of patience, forgiveness, agape loving them home to them.
And that leaves a distinct impression regarding which points of view are supported, and which ones are argued with.
And I know this is one of those paradoxes, but as much as appreciate the good wishes for strength, hope peace and healing -- and I really do -- sometimes it reads a little .... patronizing.
Because I know I'm not where I want to be, but I've come a long, long way fron where I was.
But rarely is a longer term stander who still expresses love for their spouse, who is in communication with their spouse, and hasn't found a new relationship, ever actively encouraged in their work, or acknowledged as a success.
Yet, angry people aren't wished healing.
People who are hostile to their spouse aren't wished healing.
People who personalize disagreement aren't wished healing.
And that idea es an impression.
(Edited to add content)
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Perhaps you are placing me in a certain, "camp," Onward without me knowing where that is and assessing my posts from that place. I'm making no judgements about how or how long people stand. There seems to be something we are seeing about the blog post very differently, but each of us takes in information from our own place of understandind and our own experiences. I suspect there are also conversations/threads I am not involved in that are leading to a sense of defensiveness, frustration or lack of support. I can only say that my intention here is that the LBS (and any children) survive and thrive whatever their personal story and outcome.
Best,
Phoenix
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Onward, the use of "moving on" isn't meant to be derogatory. I can only put into context what I meant by it.
- The ability to take care of yourself, while remaining true to who you are.
- You don't have to date anyone to feel that you have moved on, but a companion isn't out of the question ( not all companions have to be of a romantic nature ).
- Getting through the day without dwelling on the MLCer and when they will or won't return.
- Enjoying one's own company and doing new things that mean something to you.
- Exploring a side of yourself that you weren't able to during your marriage if it applies.
- Being able to consider the thought of them never coming back without it causing you to put your life on hold. Etc...
These are my ideas of standing, and the way I choose to do it. I'm on the fence about standing these days, so I have more flexibility in my thinking.
These are some of the ways that you can stand. The perception of standing means different things to different people. This is not to say that you won't be supported in the way you choose to decide to stand. What it does mean, is the way you have chosen to stand is not only your choice, it works for you. As an individual. Any statements made on the forum will and have resonated with people. What resonates for you doesn't resonate for others. And that's okay. What's not okay is when we are all accusatory about the way we perceive and handle things. There are no children on this forum, and therefore we are all entitled to our opinions, the way we give or receive advice, and all other manner of communication here. The use of common sense should guide us, not what others think, feel, or say.
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Hi Phoenix - while you were posting this, I was adding more context to my thread and hope it helps clarify where we are in agreement, and where & how we might see things differently.
No, I don't put you in any camp.
I don't even like the notion of camps.
We could use fewer "camps" and more exploring. :)
That's one of the rings of defence in cognitive dissonance. Camps make people selective about what they will be exposed to, how they will perceive things, what they will remember, and what they will pay attention to.
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I don't even like the notion of camps.
We could use fewer "camps" and more exploring. :)
That's one of the rings of defence in cognitive dissonance. Camps make people selective about what they will be exposed to, how they will perceive things, what they will remember, and what they will pay attention to.
Agreed
Rarely is a longer term stander who still expresses love for their spouse, who is in communication with their spouse, and hasn't found a new relationship, ever actively encouraged in their work, or acknowledged as a success.
Yet, angry people aren't wished healing.
People who are hostile to their spouse aren't wished healing.
People who personalize disagreement aren't wished healing.
This has genuinely not been my experience of the board in my 6 years here. That does not mean that I would tell you that it has not been your experience of the board, Onward. There is no intention to invalidate or patronize.
In the early days this was a small intimate group in which we all kept up with each other's situations, and conflicts/misunderstandings were rare and mostly quickly resolved because we knew each other well enough to give the benefit of the doubt much of the time and we were all new to this and stumbling along. There are pros and cons to a group getting so large (4000 members, I believe) and change and evolution are inevitable, but I still believe all of us have a place here.
Phoenix
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V, I completely disagree that a speedy divorce is in everyone's best interest. It definitely wouldn't not have been in mine.
STBX makes more than he did at BD three and a half years ago. Assuming I am actually divorced one of these days, I benefit much more than I would have 3 years ago. More important, I was given the gift of time where I was able to get myself together and make informed decisions. Had I started the divorce process right away, I wold have given him many things because I was still standing and would have done anything not to to anger him/push him further away. I now have strength. I'm not afraid of him, and I really don't care if he gets mad at me, anymore.
I've learned that there are very few absolutes in life. The only one I would say around heere is that an LBS should seek legal counsel as soon as s/he is able because financial preservation is so important. Otherwise, we should remember that everyone's situation is unique.
Onward, I am with you regarding camps. But I don't see people not wished healing. Your examples are, in my reading, all forms of anger. Many of us discuss how anger is healthy and normal have our way of wishing healing. I see it in some form every day.
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The only comment that I would make is in regards to the words we use when posting.
In my opinion - our statements or posts come from our own experience and our situations. There are no scientifically documented statistics supporting our claims. Our stories and comments are anecdotal....our perceptions and feelings, based upon our own experiences.
We must be careful that we not use the terms - ALL, ALWAYS, EVERYONE, etc.
Each case in unique...everyone's experience, while there is much similarity, our experiences are uniquely our own.
I have little hope in Standing (as it relates to the reconciliation of my relationship), due to my own experience. I believe that Standing helped me to heal and move forward in my life. It helped me to make good decisions for myself and my kids. I will always be thankful that I took the time to heal....breathe.....and did not react to the changes in my life. It helped me to accept the changes in my life.
I truly can only comment on my own experience....and nothing else.
This is a very thought provoking discussion.
L
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M, to clarify I was trying to make a qualified endorsement of at least retaining a lawyer while acknolwleding that there are some arguments to be made for waiting too.
I agree a reason to wait is to be more clear-sighted and also less concilatory.
😘
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I always try to approach comments on HS like I would a sponsee or at a 12 step meeting. Keep the focus on myself. Share my experience, strength and hope. Don't ever say, "you should..." I know nothing but my own experience and what I have read on this site regarding MLC. We are all the same but very different.
Nice reconciliation story: My mom told me at church yesterday (I was feeling sick so I missed it) they showed a video of some of the congregation's successful marriages. One couple had been separated for 8 years. They pretty much lost touch after the breakup. I don't know the circumstances but they reconciled after the 8 years and had been married a long time. Anything is possible.
For me, I knew I had to get a legal separation to establish support, custody, visitation, and protect financials. My H is a recovering addict and though he has 9 years clean, he is acting as if he is using. I have to prepare myself for a relapse. Our legal separation document is 45 pages. I even included a clause that H had to buy into a long term disability policy. That way, if he gets ill from relapse or something else I'll still get child and spousal support. My H was a high functioning crack addict--a successful construction manager. But when his addiction caught up with H, he was essentially homeless and destitute. H wanted divorce and claims he still does but I stopped it. He'll have to serve my those papers. He started this and he should finish it if that's what he wants. Our legal separation should be filed in county court next week and I am grateful I did it. I am also grateful I am not getting a divorce next week. I suspect, though, that OW will press him to divorce me. H is a compulsive liar even with recovery and I'll bet he lied to OW that we are divorced.
Hugs to you all!!!
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Rollercoasterrider's latest blog post:
Reconciliation: If You Stand, Will Your MLCer Return?
http://loveanyway.theherosspouse.com/standing-and-divorce/reconciliation_will-your-mlcer-return/ (http://loveanyway.theherosspouse.com/standing-and-divorce/reconciliation_will-your-mlcer-return/)
Time
Consider the reconciliations you know about, how much time was there from Bomb Drop to Reconciliation? Most reconciliations happen in the early years. That is not to say that they do not happen later, but the odds go down with time.
This is still bothering me. I was under the impression that there are not any reliable statistics...so were does this come from?? The single word "odds" tells me that this site is keeping track of returners and the length of time. Is this a fact or is it an opinion? Is there any evidence that backs up this statement? If so, please let us know.
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Attaching.
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Nah, We do try to keep track of those in the board who reconnect or reconcile, hence the light and dark icons. But we can only do that with people who are around, or come around to tell if that was so for them.
Most HS members stop posting after a while (that I know because I work in the Archives as well as on the Inactive Stories). There are some who have been regulars for years, and others who stick a around for some time, then stop being around, then one day pop up.
We do not know what has happened in the lives of the many who have stop updating.
For a while, it seemed the purple icons were being given to people whose MLCers were reconnecting in the 3-3.5 yearks mark. But now we have members with purple icons whose times frames are longer than that.
We also have members that still do not have purple but whose spouses are getting closer to them. And some are past the 5 years mark.
If I am not mistaken, a while ago, RCR had written that most reconciliations happened in the 3-3.5 years mark. That was one of the issues that was debated when this blog post was being prepated by RCR and not all mods/mentors agree with it.
What experience tells me is that, yes, the more times goes by the less likely reconciliation will be, but not because the MLCer is not returning, the reason, for me, is the LBS, that often has moved on.
No, I am not saying people have to stand. I am not standing (I have always explaining that standing would make me feel trapped) and for me standing, regardless of for a few years or forever, not standing, changing from standing to not standing back to standing, are individual choices.
I do however agree that a grace standing period is useful and helpful for the wellbeing and healing of the LBS.
For me the others two things are that divorce and not standing do not equal lack of reconnection or reconciliation, or the MLCer wanting to. The former real life MLCers I know were divorced, their spouses did not stand, but the MLCers still wanted back.
So, the longer this goes on, is it more likely-- or less likely -- that MLC might end and there might be a reconciliation?
The more this goes on the more likely the crisis may end (but for those MLCers who remain in MLC forever, but for me those are the exception). But that does not mean a reconciliation is more likely.
MLC takes a lot of time. During that time MLCers do many horrible things and some keep adding insult to injury for years on end, making it much harder for the whole situation to end in reconciliation. Also, the more time goes by, the more the chances the LBS stops standing, moves on, finds someone else.
Of course people may reconcilie at any point. They may even reconcile if both MLCer and LBS had remaried, and, of course, divorce the people they had married.
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Good discussion!
hugs Stayed
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I liked what RCR wrote, prefer to have a Dr tell me "Not looking good, here are the options I have for you, but you are welcome to find your own options", and have my own understanding of waiting, vs standing. I'm not waiting for H to come out of the tunnel or reconciliation or anything really. I've got one tiny lifetime, most likely 3/4 lived, to squeeze in everything that needs to be done. Putting anything on hold would be silly, unless I needed to for my own healing. So waiting is not an option for me.
Standing can mean different things to different people. For some it means they will be there for their MLCer, no matter what. For some it means they'd take their spouse back, no matter what. For some it means they will be open to taking their spouse back. For some it means they will not have another romantic interest in their life except their MLC spouse. As long as that stand, whatever it is, does not stop the stander from living their life, great and groovy.
What I got out of RCRS post was that if being a stander stops you from living your life as fully as you would have desired if MLC hadn't occurred, you might want to rethink your process for standing. Also that while the MLCER needs time, thinking that enough time will lead to reconciliation leads to false hope, that if you can just hang on for 7,10,15 years, the MLCER will come back. You can't believe them back, you can't hope them back, you can't wait them back. You would have to meet them somewhere forward, if there is to be any recconnection at all.
I'd much rather have had someone say "we have x number of members. Of those members, y number have had reconciliations. A number were at 1-2 years, B number were at 3-4 years, C number were at 5-6 years. Your odds are Z %. " But I like facts. Hope kept me living with a verbally abusive man for a year and a half, for what is ignoring me but verbal abuse? How was that in my best interest? I can tell you for a fact, I didn't start really healing until he was gone.
It would appear we all need different things to get us through. Thank goodness there are enough perspectives on this board that most of us can find some that resonate with us.
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We do not know what has happened in the lives of the many who have stop updating.
Quote from RCR: Odds go down with time.
For a while, it seemed the purple icons were being given to people whose MLCers were reconnecting in the 3-3.5 yearks mark. But now we have members with purple icons whose times frames are longer than that.
Quote from RCR: Odds go down with time.
We also have members that still do not have purple but whose spouses are getting closer to them. And some are past the 5 years mark.
Quote from RCR: Odds go down with time.
If I am not mistaken, a while ago, RCR had written that most reconciliations happened in the 3-3.5 years mark. That was one of the issues that was debated when this blog post was being prepated by RCR and not all mods/mentors agree with it.
Why was this not stated??
What experience tells me is that, yes, the more times goes by the less likely reconciliation will be, but not because the MLCer is not returning, the reason, for me, is the LBS, that often has moved on.
Why was this not stated?
For me the others two things are that divorce and not standing do not equal lack of reconnection or reconciliation, or the MLCer wanting to. The former real life MLCers I know were divorced, their spouses did not stand, but the MLCers still wanted back.
Why was this not stated?
The more this goes on the more likely the crisis may end (but for those MLCers who remain in MLC forever, but for me those are the exception). But that does not mean a reconciliation is more likely.
Quote from RCR: Odds go down with time. So you mean due to the choice of the LBS??
MLC takes a lot of time. During that time MLCers do many horrible things and some keep adding insult to injury for years on end, making it much harder for the whole situation to end in reconciliation. Also, the more time goes by, the more the chances the LBS stops standing, moves on, finds someone else.
Quote from RCR: Odds go down with time. Due to the LBS???
Of course people may reconcilie at any point. They may even reconcile if both MLCer and LBS had remaried, and, of course, divorce the people they had married.
Anjae... I'm not trying to pick on you, I know this is an article from RCR. It seems to me, and maybe I'm mistaken, that this was a group discussion including the moderators. Including several new ones who are freshly divorced and no longer standing. Is that the real reason for the change? In my opinion, this is a change. I remember being a "Newbie" like it was yesterday. If I was told on this site that "odds went down with time" in addition to "time is a gift", I would have focused on my MLCer instead of myself b/c AT THE TIME, nothing was more important to me than HIM. If I thought the clock was against me instead of my friend, I would have done everything that was wrong to get back my man instead of focusing on myself. I focused on myself b/c of advise from this site... which was my main lifesaver at the worse time in my life.
In my opinion this new information, which seems to me, not based on fact is going to lead Newbies down a different path.
Is this Hero Spouse or a softer version of the Chump Lady?
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I'd much rather have had someone say "we have x number of members. Of those members, y number have had reconciliations. A number were at 1-2 years, B number were at 3-4 years, C number were at 5-6 years. Your odds are Z %. " But I like facts.
Me too.
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Is this Hero Spouse or a softer version of the Chump Lady?
LOL! I wondered almost exactly the same thing earlier today! ;D ;D
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Nah, RCR wrote the blog post, not I. I am merely telling you either how things are done in the board, like the purple icons for reconnections or reconciliations, or my opinion on matters regarding the blog post.
When RCR posted here she left clear that not all mods had the same view on that blog post (or parts of the blog post). I was one of those.
Yes, at times, blog posts are presented by RCR to mods/mentors previously and discussed. As with everything, some people agree (or agree with parts), other disagree (or disagree with parts). We provide our opinions, point to things each of us find of concern, of interest or that should be explored, but, in the end, they are RCR blog posts and she writes what she thinks she should.
I agree it is a change. That was one of the points I find of concern.
Another of my opinions was that when HS is 10, 15, 20 years we may know more and have more facts/more precise facts. May, because like now, most likely many members will stop posting, leaving us with the same problem we have now: not knowing how things turned out for them.
I can also say that I was concerned that the blog post would put a dent on hope. And when I think of hope, I think of Viktor Frank, that has been previoulsy mentioned on this thread and his hope kept him alive in the camps agains all odds (in the camps it is not a supposition is is fact, most people died, or to be precise, were murdered). It is true it was his hope and his way of cope. And that, when he was freed, his family had died. But it was hope that kept him alive.
I have also seen how hope, or lack thereof, can play a big part in illness/recovery. I have seen it with my aunt and my grandmother, as well as with others. And I have seen what happens when people lose hope and give up. I am not saying that hope is going to save everyone who has it, it will not. Some patients have hopeful and they die, but hope and a positive spirit do help.
But, again, that is not my blog post. I cannot tell you why RCR wrote the way she did. You would have to ask RCR that.
To my knowledge, no, HS is not a softer version of The Chump Lady. And I hope if never becomes so. In my opinion, one Chump Lady is more than enough.
The we have X number of members things would be a fallacy. We have no idea what happened to many members. Many come by at BD and soon dissapear. It would not make sense to include them. Nor all the ones who have dropped off the radar.
We could not go, "we have 4000 members, 4 reconciled at year 5, 7 at year 3 ". We do not have info, or enough info, on most members that allows us to it like that.
MLC lasts a long time. Most members do not stick around long enough for us to know more/enough about them.
Maybe we could do something with the regulars (but which regulars, the current ones? The ones from 5 years ago, many of whom are no longer around?). Or the current and previous mods (providing we know what is going on with previous mods and in some cases we do not).
HS is not a site for stats, it is a site for support. Each of us have its own vision of MLC and how things are when it comes to reconciliations and returning MLCers. Those opinions come from our experiences, board and real life ones. Not everyone reads the board/the same info the same way. That is true for HS or for any other thing.
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To my knowledge there is only 1 "newly" divorced mod/mentor. The newest is still married and standing if I remember correctly.
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It seems to me, and maybe I'm mistaken, that this was a group discussion including the moderators. Including several new ones who are freshly divorced and no longer standing. Is that the real reason for the change?
There may be a misperception developing that needs clarification. RCR wrote a blog post without input from the moderators. She then posted it to us after the fact. There was sharing of thoughts, but the blog was not significantly changed before posting. I may be misunderstanding, but any speculation that the moderators are a clandestine group, working in tandem to influence RCR or the direction of the board behind the scenes is not accurate. We volunteer our time to be of support to LBSs who request a mentor and we do our best to bring them through the early days as people helped us. Others of us devote significant time to the technological/administrative tasks that keep the board going. We are as diverse as the board in general and reflect the same varying thoughts and experiences. Yes, some of us are now divorced whether by personal choice, or because our spouse gave us no choice, as in my case, but that doesn't mean we don't support standing or standers, or that a divorced LBS can't still be standing, or an LBS who is still married can't have chosen not to stand any longer.
I believe RCR said she would be along after Halloween to comment/answer questions.
Phoenix
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But rarely is a longer term stander who still expresses love for their spouse, who is in communication with their spouse, and hasn't found a new relationship, ever actively encouraged in their work, or acknowledged as a success.
Hi Onward
On a personal level I disagree here. I am 3.5 years in - still married and still standing. My MLCer is a stay at home high replayer with OW. My H refuses to leave and never has; he is a CB of the highest order. He has also spent a huge amount of his money but he has always maintained his contribution to the bills.
I have never ever been criticised for being a long term stander - on the contrary the number of positive and supportive and (dare I say it) compliments I have received for standing and staying married has been tremendous. Yes I have received reality checks from people like Stayed and another very long timer who reads but rarely posts except to challenge me on something. However I saw those comments as concern and also food for thought as I grow.
Therefore I have always ensured to post where I can on similar LBS threads so that they can see that it can be done and that growth and healing is very very possible.
I have seen some bitter and angry posts recommending divorce and "kick them to the curb" comments but when you take the time to look behind the comments you see a very hurt and frightened LBS. That's what we mods and mentors try to establish.
Onward I am so sorry that you feel that this board is not as supportive as you originally thought.
RCR wrote a blog post without input from the moderators. She then posted it to us after the fact. There was sharing of thoughts, but the blog was not significantly changed before posting. I may be misunderstanding, but any speculation that the moderators are a clandestine group, working in tandem to influence RCR or the direction of the board behind the scenes is not accurate. We volunteer our time to be of support to LBSs who request a mentor and we do our best to bring them through the early days as people helped us. Others of us devote significant time to the technological/administrative tasks that keep the board going. We are as diverse as the board in general and reflect the same varying thoughts and experiences. Yes, some of us are now divorced whether by personal choice, or because our spouse gave us no choice, as in my case, but that doesn't mean we don't support standing or standers, or that a divorced LBS can't still be standing, or an LBS who is still married can't have chosen not to stand any longer.
To echo the comments - this post was discussed by the mod team and the viewpoints were very diverse. This is RCR's site and with great respect to all, if she believes that this blog post was necessary to include then there was a reason for it. This board has grown so much since I joined in May 2013 so the stats and attitudes increase with it.
This discussion has been most interesting and I would love to see an inclusion of the statistics
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This is a very eye opening post and the more I think about what Rollercoaster wrote the more sense it makes and gives all of us, especially the long term Standers like myself, a lot of food for thought.
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I am sure I am not going to be as eloquent as many others, but I will try.
First of all about the idea that the board isn't as supportive of standing as it used to be. I've been here since it's inception and of course it has changed. But what used to feel different is that it was the only board that actively supported standing.
Never did it give any guarantees -- ever. But the tag line that is at the top of the forum (and which I thought should be on the home page) states:
"Dealing with MLC and infidelity when you don't want a divorce". And in one of her descriptive articles she says that she doesn't offer any guarantees, but that she can "throw you a lifeline".
Never did standing not include protecting finances. Never did standing not include boundaries. Quite the opposite.
Nevertheless, I, too, feel that there are very many who equate standing with "sitting around waiting". I, too, have had supportive comments regarding my stand, but equally many saying "why are you standing when he is clearly gone?"
Standing isn't easy, I come here for support when it feels difficult. That is what I always thought this forum was about.
I was already a few years into this mess when I found RCR and HS; yes, I do wish it had been around earlier because I might have avoided some mistakes. But it also confirmed to me that my gut instinct to stand (even if I didn't know what it was called) was right.
RCR's own experience is receding into the background for her, that is normal and natural, and even to be desired. What most of us wouldn't give to have that be the distant past! Situations that I know of in real life are the same. One LBS that I know, now long reconciled, said to me a few years ago that she couldn't walk this with me any more. She was right. She, too, now looks at MLC messes and just gets tired, isn't as supportive of standing as she once was.
Not that she thinks it's wrong -- absolutely the opposite -- but she just can't relive it again.
Before my H descended into crisis I had no idea that I would stand if that happened to me -- actually, I thought I would run a mile. But when it did happen it was an instant knowledge that standing for my marriage and family was right. And that doesn't mean it is easy.
OK. Now next.
I think I get her idea that she wants to say that this isn't a "save your marriage" programme. I think many come here thinking that if we just do x, reconciliation will follow. So from that point of view I can understand what she wrote.
Nevertheless, I, too, found it discouraging.
Hope is important. I have had many situations in my life that absolutely seemed hopeless, that have turned out well. But if I hadn't "stood" for my beliefs and principles, that wouldn't have happened.
I have kids with special needs where I was told many years ago that my approach was wrong. I proved them wrong. I come from a nation which was occupied for many years. Most of the world thought that standing for our beliefs was misguided. We were right.
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I've hesitated getting involved in this discussion for various reasons but what Offroad said:
As long as that stand, whatever it is, does not stop the stander from living their life, great and groovy.
What I got out of RCRS post was that if being a stander stops you from living your life as fully as you would have desired if MLC hadn't occurred, you might want to rethink your process for standing. Also that while the MLCER needs time, thinking that enough time will lead to reconciliation leads to false hope, that if you can just hang on for 7,10,15 years, the MLCER will come back. You can't believe them back, you can't hope them back, you can't wait them back. You would have to meet them somewhere forward, if there is to be any recconnection at all.
was exactly what I got out of the blog post as well....
Warning: Once I got started, I got on a roll so this is a LONG post....
NOWHERE does RCR say standing is "wrong." NOWHERE does she say it is useless or any other derogatory term and to infer otherwise, I believe is a projection of personal issues onto the post.
She is simply stating a set of observations, perhaps facts, from the way she sees it. I have to say that what she has written corresponds with the information I have gotten from my mom who, if anyone doesn't know from reading my posts, is a licensed clinical psychologist specializing in marital and family therapy who had more than 35 years in private practice and and an additional 5 in the public domain, and others in the field.
Standing (however one defines that term) in a healthy way is NOT about "waiting for the MLC'er to get their head out of their rear end" because it is a fact, some of them NEVER will. they will go to their grave in the tunnel. My FIL was one of those so I got to witness it first hand the carnage and destruction that he left in his wake for the last 20 years, including the way his crisis has impacted his kids lives, not the least of which is my MLCW.
Standing, in my view, is about HEALING of the non-MLC'er! It is the time that the LBS needs in order to get their own ducks in a row and get them headed in the right direction: the direction of personal growth, of self-discovery, of doing what is known here as "mirror work" or self-examination, self-improvement, and self-love.
One thing to remember is that the MLC'ers are almost always, without exception, people who have NO concept of self-nurturing. they are not capable of soothing themselves and recovering from setbacks and disappointments.... The spouse or partner has been in that role for them for a LONG time (19 YEARS in my case) of being an external supply of soothing and nurturing. Anyone who thinks that has NOT had an adverse effect on our own psyche is not facing reality. To use a more brutal analogy, if you hit a dog enough times, sooner or later, when you raise your hand, the dog will cringe, even if you are attempting to pet it nicely. Likewise, when ANYONE raises their hand, the dog will cringe. It takes TIME for that doggie to learn that the new person is NOT going to whack it! It is NO different for the spouse of the Mid-Lifer. We have been in a specific role for so long of trying to fill the MLC'ers leaky bottomless bucket that we have gotten used to focusing on others at the detriment to ourselves.
THAT to me is what the stand is about.... Getting our focus turned back to being healthy individuals in our own right and taking that time.
As Nah said, the way it was expressed, that the odds for reconciliation get worse as time goes on, is a two-sided sword. On the one side, for the newly BD'd spouse, yes, they want nothing more urgently or desperately than to have their spouse back AT ANY COST! So, yes, it may be detrimental to "hope" as some people see it. However, that message has to be taken as a whole with the REST of the post - that, regardless of the time past, NOTHING is impossible but the SPOUSE OF THE MLC'er MUST ENGAGE IN HEALING! Standing as the term is generally accepted here - meaning that one will not undertake any other relationship outside the one with the spouse and will not initiate a divorce, is all well and good. It is a personal decision and no one can say that it is right or wrong because it is a PERSONAL decision.
In NO case, should "Standing"= "Stasis." Why? Because Stasis is NOT healthy. I don't care how faithful one is (in fact, if one wants to go biblical, doesn't the bible say that the body is the temple of God? Is not the brain and the spirit part of the body? what happens when a building or any other structure is not maintained (is put dormant?) Yep, in the passage of time, it crumbles and falls apart) we, as humans, have an innate need to continue growing. It is a fact of life that, once one stops growing, emotionally, spiritually, mentally, one starts the decay process of dying....
But that doesn't have ANYTHING to do with a new relationship with another person!
Our first and most important relationship (aside from that with our higher power) is the one with ourselves. We have to be secure and happy in our own skin, with ourselves. If someone is ONLY happy when they are in a relationship with a specific other person, then there is something intrinsically unhealthy about that relationship. A marriage is NOT about 2 people "completing" each other but rather 2 people COMPLEMENTING each other to form a new entity that is greater than the sum of the parts. Mathematically it would be like saying 1 + 1 = 3. It is two complete and whole individuals coming together to make something greater than the sum of the 2.
In order to have that happen though, EACH PARTY HAS TO BE WHOLE AND HEALTHY WITHIN THEMSELVES.
I'll be honest and say that, in the course of my marriage, I have developed unhealthy behaviors in order to fill the "void" that was inside my MLC'er. That is why I am at the point where I am now. "Standing?"I can't say that. I am not at a point where I am in a position to make that decision because I am not fully healed. Until that point, it is neither prudent nor fair, either to myself or to another person to attempt to engage in a relationship. Does that mean I am "waiting"on my MLCW to have a cranial-rectal disinversion? No. The two things are NOT related in ANY way. My healing is NOT dependent on her or anything she does.
When the time comes that I feel that I can be wholly , genuinely, authentically and lovingly in a relationship again, then I'll make the decision regarding my relationship with her. In the mean time, what happens? I don"t know. No one has died and appointed me as God to the best of my knowledge. We can't tell what the future will hold. We can, via anecdotal stories that, quite frankly, are biased, infer that certain things may happen but one needs to remember that people on HS come and go. People come here when they are in need. they find their way to this place by recommendation (like I did) or by searching for answers. When their need has been fulfilled, they leave. Some stick around in an altruistic way to help the "next generation" as they themselves were helped. Others find it is simply too painful to have those wounds reopened time and time again every time a newbie comes in fresh from having their butts blown off in a BD.
If one stands and continues to grow in their relationship with their Higher Power, in their relationship with themselves, in their relationships with their kids if applicable and with their community while abstaining from an intimate relationship with another human because that is what they believe in, then more power to them and they have my total respect. I don't see that as any different to those taking vows of Holy Orders. Likewise, those who have decided that, in order for them to heal and be healthy, they need to end a relationship and start over with someone else, that is also a personal decision and is NOT open to ridicule or derision from those who have chosen a different path.
Having said that, I DO recognize that, from my perspective, there are a few posters who seem to revel in describing their antics in the dating scene and those I choose NOT to follow because I find it totally disrespectful, both to themselves and to the people they are playing with.
If one is standing and waiting and pining/longing for the return of the spouse without healing themselves, then they are in the position of being stuck and that is unhealthy... After all, if one begins building a house with the exact same set of materials that have collapsed before, what in the name of all that is holy is going to change the outcome?
Finally, if the MLC'er comes out of the tunnel, they will have changed and grown - they have NO choice in the matter because to successfully end the Crisis permanently, they have to deal with whatever it was in their past that has prevented them from knowing how to recover from setbacks and disappointments, they have to have learned how to sooth and nurture themselves, they are forced to learn how to patch their leaky bucket and fill it from within rather than expect others to fill it for them. If the partner that they have left is still in the same mode as they were before, the former MLC'er is not going to be interested in the long term.... I mean, seriously, it may be an over-dramatization but would ANYONE here, at their current age and experience, want to go back and get involved with someone you knew in high school who has NOT also matured and lived a life?
Folks, that is exactly what we are talking about here.... By virtue of the MLC, the ways of two people who expected to follow a single path have been been violently separated with one of them disappearing into the tunnel. If we stop right where we are at the time this separation takes place and wait for them to reappear, we miss out on a beautiful trip / life that will have some hills, some valleys, some rain, and some sunshine. Most importantly though, we will not be ANYWHERE near the point where the MLC'er will finally emerge because they will continue to move.... NO ONE comes out of MLC unchanged... ever... so if we want to have any hope of a true permanent reconciliation, we too need to grow and change.
Thank you for reading the Gospel of MLC according to Ursa....
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Very wise words UM.
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You've put that well, Ursa.
I think that sometimes our sadness/anger/frustration stems from seeing that they are just using something external to fill that void, wanting to scream at them that this isn't the way. And we mostly DO get on with healing ourselves, working on ourselves in all the ways that you describe.
And then there is the horrible sadness if we see that they just won't/don't. Because we know that if they don't, there can't be a true reconciliation, and that makes us sad. It doesn't necessarily mean we are waiting, but I guess that's what is meant by the bit that the odds go down with time. That the odds of them finally figuring out that it all comes from within go down the longer this goes on, the longer they find external sources.
But nothing is impossible. Also for us to learn to move our focus from just wanting them home, to a)working on ourselves, and b) wanting them to be whole -- which is different to wanting them home at any cost.
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UM,
Your ending sentence made me laugh but everything you said is spot on.
If part parties can change and grow and become stronger "inside" there is a possibility of a reconcilement on a healthy level.
Another way this could end is, I've know 2 couples (who had children) who never reconciled their marriage but became good friends. They were actually better friends than they when they were married. One remarried and her H ended up being good friends with the x too. They have even spent holidays together.
The children are happy with each parent and didn't seem to suffer, after the fact. They now have 2 parents who are healthy, happy, engaged and treat each other with kindness and respect.
I guess my point is maybe some people were never really meant to be in their marriage long term. They are better friends than soul mates. By changing and growing they both recognized they liked each other but were not meant to be together.
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Thank you for reading the Gospel of MLC according to Ursa....
All I can say to your gospel, Ursa Major, is AMEN, AMEN, AMEN!
Phoenix
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Ursa and Phoenix have expressed exactly what I was thinking. I believe that we all have to realize that Standing is for US not the MLCer. Will we be there when and/or if they reach the end of the tunnel? Who knows. Like you said, we aren't God.
I really think that this forum is helpful, but not perfect. That's a good thing. Why? It leaves room for growth within the little microcosm that it is. Whether you read Chump Lady, Heart's Blessing, Rejoice Marriage Ministries, or HS all the information will do you some good if you use it for your individual situation.
If you are forced into divorce, that doesn't mean that you can't still stand. It's been in my experience that many have chosen to stand after the divorce from what I've read on other sites and forums. So, I don't think that anyone should be judged on how or when they decide to stand.
There is one thing that bothers me though: how many people read into, without reading the actual posts that people write. This seems to cause unnecessary drama, and is easily rectified by reading someone's post twice to make sure you are getting the gist or understanding it correctly.
I think that RCR has had enough time to make a hypothesis ( whether it's correct or not is not the point ) based on the feedback that she has received here on the forum. I also think ( I'm speaking for myself here ) that this article, although has some contradictions from earlier ones is timely and has merit. Again, I do believe that the contradictions shouldn't be ignored. Not as an indictment, but as proof that RCR has grown and is open to the possibility that this may not have the outcome for all that they desire. She's just the messenger, it's not her fault if people don't like or receive the message.
How could she not come to some of these conclusions? She has a "live lab" if you will to see how this "experiment" is going. Most of what we read about MLC conflicts even among professionals. There are therapists and Psychologists out there that don't even believe that MLC exists. So, for RCR to tackle this with no clinical experience ( if this is indeed correct ) shows she at least is willing to search for answers where there really are no concrete ones.
We've all had our differences, disagreements, fights, clashes, etc... And, that's actually a good thing. I for one don't read the newbies stories, mine is horrific enough. I chose to let my XH divorce me to protect my kids and what little money there was left to protect. In the states ( all 50 and it's territories ) you can get a No Fault divorce which means you can be divorced pretty much without your consent. You can't contest a No Fault.
I don't fault anyone who thinks that divorce shouldn't be the first option if you have minor children ( the toll it was taking on mine was enough to help me make the decision ). I'm just saying don't rule it out if you're being ruined financially. Let me reiterate, I have read stories, and personally talked with people who decided to stand after the divorce was final. It's really up to you what you want to do, go or stay: it's your choice. I just learned the hard way that listening to the wrong people ( those that aren't in your situation ) can be disastrous. Be careful who you take counsel from, especially here. Not everyone is telling their full stories, there's not enough time in the day, and you'd be surprised what's not being revealed. We're only getting a glimpse into each others' lives. Remember that. Make an informed decision with the information provided, it's a guide nothing more.
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Ursa, excellent post, and I agree with you completely.
The blog post makes good points.
AND the blog post is discouraging.
A number of people have written that they found it discouraging.
It is discouraging because it fails to acknowledge that a lot of people are already doing the very things that RCR suggests.
It is discouraging because it is a message people already receive on a day to day basis, and did not expect in a place where they thought they are understood differently.
It is discouraging because it doesn't acknowledge the commitment and energy many members of this board put into healing themselves, and standing against the very societal forces referenced in the post. Instead, it's adding that same societal message.
It is discouraging because it implies a quiet life is not a healing life.
It is discouraging because it singles out a particular group of people for no particular reason and with zero evidence.
And what is MORE discouraging is there is no apparent willingness to acknowledge that it is discouraging.
There's nothing more I can write to try and make that point.
The thing is, I am not upset by the blog post.
As a piece of communication, it wasn't particularly effective for newbies who are looking for reasons to understand what just happened to them.
It was clearly affirming for those who are ambivalent, standing for themselves, and/or moving on. Which is great.
And it was discouraging and critical of those who are deemed standing for something other than themselves or 'waiting' -- the description of which has never been provided and the message of which seems you're doing it too long, you're probably doing it wrong. And if you're praying about it, you're delusional. Which is not so great.
Because these voices feel shut down and not heard, and do not feel safe saying they are not heard, and they disappear or are driven away. I don't feel particularly good about that, which is why I am being a dog with a bone. And why I will have to go spend some time in the bathroom, looking long and hard in the mirror after my own rant is done.
This is just my opinion, but the rationale for the post as has been described here is a slippery slope toward believing if HS could just provide more advise and give more information of the financial and legal sort, it will prevent bad things from happening to people.
That more information will get people to make good and right choices.
This is, in my opinion, the very codependent behaviour LBSs are accused of.
That marks a pretty big shift from a peer support/mentor role, to a counseling/advisory role, which HS makes clear in the recently added legal disclaimer it is not.
I completely agree, this is RCR's site. She has done a tremendous service providing it. She can write what she wants, and has her reasons.
That doesn't mean readers aren't going to take away their own message, and provide feedback - especially if the message received differs from the message she intended to send.
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Onward, Rejoice Marriage Ministries may be more of what you're seeking when it comes to your line of thinking. I still don't get where you're coming from. You sound like you feel misunderstood and not appreciated. This just isn't true. Your time and energy aren't wasted. No one's on the forum is wasted. No matter which way you go.
Personally, I just don't get your need for external validation on this. But, you feel how you feel. I just don't see why you care so much about how the rest of us feel or think. We're just expressing different views.
I don't take anything anyone says on this forum personally. It is, what it is. Only a few on here know me personally, their opinions I value. Everyone else I take with a grain of salt. Just my take.
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That doesn't mean readers aren't going to take away their own message, and provide feedback - especially if the message received differs from the message she intended to send.
AGREE! What's the problem? Nobody opposes opinions! All knowledge is good.
Hugs Stayed
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From My3girls:
Onward, Rejoice Marriage Ministries may be more of what you're seeking when it comes to your line of thinking
EVERYONE and I mean EVERYONE's opinion is allowed and valued on Heros Spouse. We may not agree BUT each person's views must be respected.
It may be that standers need hope to continue to do something that is so hard.
It may be that non standers would prefer the "odds are against you" to help them move into another relationship.
Each of us are different.
There are plenty of people who have posted on this thread who agree with Onward's position, and I will be the first to stand up and say that I agree with her as well as Anjae and other's who have written about the value of hope in dealing with difficult situations in our lives, be it a spouse who leaves or a serious illness. As a nurse, I have always helped my patients have hope because things change when you least expect them to.
It doesn't mean that Onward's view don't fit HS anymore than any other members views.
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This Got DEEP in A Hurry!
My Two Pennies...
As someone who reconciled after 5+ years, I of course disagree with the timing premise. More importantly for me...I dismiss all timing premises because of the impossible nature of predicting our own behavior let alone the actions of some one twisting up in the sky...
BUT...I don't disagree with most of the post. The one thing I wish I could pass along better...is that this journey is your own. I wish I would have learned that earlier. So much of what she wrote are the keys to unlocking yourself and addressing your own issues that can lead you to a better place no matter what the outcome with your spouse.
I would have always called myself a Stander...it follows my beliefs and how I live my life. Would I have Stood Forever?..I Have no Idea...I just Stood One Day at a Time. I Just couldn't let go of my family as long as I felt there was any chance of saving it. I didn't want to have to share custody, split holidays and introduce my children into whole new families, people and surroundings if I didn't have to. (You who have had to do those things...it breaks my heart because I know it breaks yours...I pray you will all be blessed for it someday & someway.) So as long as I could keep it together...no matter how difficult or unsatisfying it was...it was worth it to me. I am in the camp that most MLC'rs will come back...with regret and shame for what they did...the question will always be will you still be there when they are back. Each of us has to make that decision at some point and weigh out the good and bad for ourselves and our children.
The key is what you do in that time between BD and that moment. The time spent working on yourself, growing and healing can be the best days you spend if you put in the work. I don't think RCR was trying to destroy hope by pushing that agenda...I think what she was trying to say was that the only part of this journey you can control is the one within yourself. Hope can do a lot of things for us during this period...but for me the real rubber met the road staring at myself and seeing the warts. Once I saw them, healed them and found a new way of living "Hope" seemed Lighter, Easier and More Real...not so desperate.
I was here a long time ago...and came back again a short time ago...and I can tell you that I am not the best person to give advice to newbies who come in looking for the secret to saving their marriage. Because I try and push them quicker than they are ready for. I will always support those who can Stand...but I will also lead to self help, self awareness and self love as being the way to get peace. I don't think meaningful reconciliations are possible with out them. And maybe that is where RCR is with this post as well...and i'm sure she will answer this for herself.
We are all products of our own environments and experiences...I survived MLC by Standing, Healing Myself, and Reconciling with my wife. Therefore my experience sees those opportunities better than someone who has lived the process differently, divorced, moved on, and re-married. That makes neither of us right. To me that is the beauty of having a lot of different perspectives available here because one size does not fit all. But we can find stories and posters who's experiences are closer to our own and get advice from those who have tread the path you are on. I think PM's are sometimes great ways to get advice form certain mentors and moderators if you are not getting the support or feedback that you need. This is the most personal, emotional, and life changing thing that will happen to most of us...the fact that there is a place where we can all find help and hope...is a blessing.
Stay Strong.
BB
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I would like to go on record as being one of the standers that wholeheartedly agree with Onward and 1trouble, as well all of those who are in agreement with her.
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As per usual XYZ you took what I said out of context, and yet again cherry picked what I wrote ( Hence, reading into instead of reading what was written. ). Having said this, I'm not even going to dignify this with a rebuttal.
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I would like to go on record as being one of the standers that wholeheartedly agree with Onward and 1trouble, as well all of those who are in agreement with her.
I second this as well.
your line of thinking. I still don't get where you're coming from. You sound like you feel misunderstood and not appreciated
M3G its these words said in written format without the ability to discern tone and body language that can be a problem. Frankly I found them patronizing at first read as well.
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I’ve read through all the posts and find most of them very enlightening.
I do remember when first reading the article thinking – wow, there must be something I’m missing. So I read it again.
The article starts with a question. If you Stand, will your MLCer return?
And then proceeds to immediately state that there are no guarantees for reconciliation and most situations like ours end in divorce rather than in reconciliation. <Ouch!> But the next part that states - reconciliation and being successful are not mutually exclusive - hit home (mainly because it took me about 20 minutes to wrap my brain around the logic of mutual exclusiveness as it relates to success and reconciliation :) )
For me – it doesn’t matter if the odds are incredibly stacked against me. So what if they are? That doesn't change who I am or what is true. I know not everyone plays the lottery, but if you have ever taken a chance on a lottery ticket, did you purchase it because you planned to lose? I rarely play, but when I do it’s not because I plan to lose. (incidentally – I really would LOVE to win the lottery right now as my husband gets his divorce – wouldn’t that just be the icing on the MLC cake)
But I digress, the point I’m trying to make is that I can't remember a time when I ever played a sport, or a game, or a taken a chance on something or someone in life only to “not win”. That characteristic doesn’t exist in me.
I chose to stand for my marriage. (for me that's playing to win). That doesn’t mean I expect or will ever gain reconciliation. What I consider to be a Divine Gift from God (reconciliation) will only happen in God’s perfect will and in His perfect timing. It's not a 2, 3.5, 7.69, 10.5342, 18 year end-result of MLC. No matter who it has ever happened to, unfortunately that will not affect my own personal outcome. I find it interesting that I'm a geek at heart and, like Offroad, I do want the facts :). However I don't seem to have the tendency to lean so much on the reconciled people's journey because I can't trust the facts. No body else's journey is my journey, so I can maintain the distinction when I read other people's posts.
Regarding reconciliation, I’ve had to let that part of my agenda go. I actually detached myself from MLC and over the course of the 15 months since BD, I’ve detached also from the expectation of reconciliation. I still chose to stand for my marriage whether or not reconciliation will be my gift.
With regards to MLC. I’ve never trusted the process. I don’t even know what the process is for that matter. Detaching was clear. The rest never was clear to me. Was giving and receiving “time” the process? Is keeping hope and faith alive the process? It seems to me that time was always at the heart of the essence of the MLC “process”. With time in mind, I agree that there are parts of the article that are extremely discouraging especially the part about the passage of time being detrimental to reconciliation. I also understand why it's mentioned. So I get it when Onward points out the inherent contradiction.
So.....
Enter Faith!! (and let me go ahead and throw Grace and Mercy in to the mix)
Starting with Faith. Strangely, in the chasm of my experience in a broken marriage, I think I may finally have learned what faith is. I don’t think I ever really knew until now. The crisis has given me this very invaluable lesson. Then adding in Grace and Mercy. Those are additional gifts. Reading about Grace in the Unconditionals chapter of the articles was an amazing experience early on. I revisit that chapter often. If I never receive the gift of reconciliation, I have been thrice blessed with regards to Faith, Grace, and Mercy. The reason I truly believe I’ve been given these gifts is because “I Do” base my stand on a religious platform – (pun intended) ;) Nothing at all wrong with that approach.
In the end, I think this post isn't one of the better ones relative to a standing approach, but I took the opportunity to glean from it what I thought could help me in the matter at heart. I sifted out the discouraging parts and held on to the rest.
CallingHeart
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I would like to go on record as being one of the standers that wholeheartedly agree with Onward and 1trouble, as well all of those who are in agreement with her.
I second this as well.
your line of thinking. I still don't get where you're coming from. You sound like you feel misunderstood and not appreciated
M3G its these words said in written format without the ability to discern tone and body language that can be a problem. Frankly I found them patronizing at first read as well.
That would be why I was making the statement. To get clarification. I don't cherry pick, or read into anything without asking directly. I don't go by how I do things to make a statement about someone else. I also don't project and pretend like it's what the other person was thinking or reasoning at the time.
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BB--I always love what you write.
I Just couldn't let go of my family as long as I felt there was any chance of saving it. I didn't want to have to share custody, split holidays and introduce my children into whole new families, people and surroundings if I didn't have to. (You who have had to do those things...it breaks my heart because I know it breaks yours...I pray you will all be blessed for it someday & someway.) So as long as I could keep it together...no matter how difficult or unsatisfying it was...it was worth it to me. I am in the camp that most MLC'rs will come back...with regret and shame for what they did...the question will always be will you still be there when they are back.
This is actually something I needed to see today. So thanks!
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Onward, Rejoice Marriage Ministries may be more of what you're seeking when it comes to your line of thinking.
M3G, help me understand what it is you perceive about my line of thinking that leads you to this conclusion.
I still don't get where you're coming from.
I agree.
You sound like you feel misunderstood and not appreciated. This just isn't true. Your time and energy aren't wasted. No one's on the forum is wasted. No matter which way you go.
Oh - that is certainly not what I feel, so it would be helpful to understand what I've said or done to draw this conclusion. I don't think I've ever expressed the sense that my time and energy have been wasted. I did say I thought the blog was a good reminder, and that parts of it were discouraging, and I don't know how to write anything any clearer to express why the blog posts were discouraging. Since then, others have acknowledged that there is a discouraging tone to the blog posts much more effectively than I.
Personally, I just don't get your need for external validation on this. But, you feel how you feel. I just don't see why you care so much about how the rest of us feel or think. We're just expressing different views.
I'm not sure how expressing my views is seeking external validation. If that is the case, I guess we all are seeking external validation, including you.
Since I haven't attempted to persuade anyone differently from how they think, and I have not dismissed other views, and I have agreed with people. I am not sure of the basis for the conclusion that I care so much about what others think.
What I have done is express what I think. What I have raised is perception that is shared by others, some of whom have let me know they do not feel safe expressing it because of the fear of being called out personally.
Which, by the way, you have done in the post I am responding to. You have ascribed to me feelings I do not feel, and the suggestion that my way of thinking is a better match for a different board. That doesn't bother me, because your perceptions are you own. But I do know this type of personalized response bothers others.
I have also had people tell me they don't post any more because of this style of personalizing and labelling. And it is that suppression of a full range of voices that troubles me, because I don't think it's healthy for a community to limit diversity.
I don't take anything anyone says on this forum personally.
I perceive this differently, due to posts like the very one I am responding to, as well as a few others in this thread where you have responded in ways that can be perceived as patronizing. Yesterday, you did tell RT to be quiet until she know something for sure, and you just dismissed xyzcf as well in a tone that was rather unkind.
And, I could be wrong and SF would have to clarify, but I didn't interpret that she was referring to my comments in this post:
your line of thinking. I still don't get where you're coming from. You sound like you feel misunderstood and not appreciated
M3G its these words said in written format without the ability to discern tone and body language that can be a problem. Frankly I found them patronizing at first read as well.
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The only thing I think that this thread has really done, is open a discussion that is long over due. It has also shown that there are those on the forum with a fixed mindset that are feeling really threatened by RCR's latest blog post. I'm calling you all out on this one. She's not asking anyone to change their stance or beliefs. She's just readjusting what she's observed. Period.
This seems to be where the whole "camps" mindset is coming in. I've been on the forum for almost 3 years now, and the usual suspects come out to attack anyone that goes against their mindset. Having said this, so that I'm not partially quoted. I think that what RCR wrote is a good thing, and I embrace the thought of her expressing what she thinks. Do I agree with it? That's not the issue. I do welcome her doing things the way she sees fit. I don't agree with everything she does, and haven't been shy about posting that. I do however appreciate her candor.
It's takes a big person to reevaluate what they have previously thought and/or believe. And, a brave one to even question it themselves. I have respect for her for this reason. I don't agree with her on all points, but I respect her enough to give her the benefit of the doubt.
As for external validation on my part. There is none, I'm just involved in a very interesting discussion. No more, no less.
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M3G its these words said in written format without the ability to discern tone and body language that can be a problem. Frankly I found them patronizing at first read as well.
Hmm, I didn't get that impression of patronizing at all. I happen to like Rejoice Marriage Ministries. Once a week or so some of the ladies there and I discuss the bible verses sent out to readers. Lots of strength, knowledge, and support of all types there.
All I can go on is the words written since as noted tone, facial expression, and body language are not available. So words mean what is written in my mind normally. I try to remember what R2T said about assume or charge neutral or ask for clarification before assuming.
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My take on the blog as opposed to a question asked for clarification:
BB and Ursa Major hit it directly.
The one thing I wish I could pass along better...is that this journey is your own. I wish I would have learned that earlier. So much of what she wrote are the keys to unlocking yourself and addressing your own issues that can lead you to a better place no matter what the outcome with your spouse.
The key is what you do in that time between BD and that moment. The time spent working on yourself, growing and healing can be the best days you spend if you put in the work. I don't think RCR was trying to destroy hope by pushing that agenda...I think what she was trying to say was that the only part of this journey you can control is the one within yourself. Hope can do a lot of things for us during this period...but for me the real rubber met the road staring at myself and seeing the warts. Once I saw them, healed them and found a new way of living "Hope" seemed Lighter, Easier and More Real...not so desperate.
and
Finally, if the MLC'er comes out of the tunnel, they will have changed and grown - they have NO choice in the matter because to successfully end the Crisis permanently, they have to deal with whatever it was in their past that has prevented them from knowing how to recover from setbacks and disappointments, they have to have learned how to sooth and nurture themselves, they are forced to learn how to patch their leaky bucket and fill it from within rather than expect others to fill it for them. If the partner that they have left is still in the same mode as they were before, the former MLC'er is not going to be interested in the long term....
Folks, that is exactly what we are talking about here.... By virtue of the MLC, the ways of two people who expected to follow a single path have been been violently separated with one of them disappearing into the tunnel. If we stop right where we are at the time this separation takes place and wait for them to reappear, we miss out on a beautiful trip / life that will have some hills, some valleys, some rain, and some sunshine. Most importantly though, we will not be ANYWHERE near the point where the MLC'er will finally emerge because they will continue to move.... NO ONE comes out of MLC unchanged... ever... so if we want to have any hope of a true permanent reconciliation, we too need to grow and change.
I don't it is an issue of standing or not standing that is relevant to that message. In either case the message is to move forward, work on yourself, focus on yourself, heal and grow. In either case, doing those things has no downside. It is what's needed, what makes success in about anyway the reader chooses to define it, in either case, as detailed by BB and Ursa Major.
I don't think Rcr was trying to destroy hope. She sent the message she intended. She was offering some hope and support to a large segment of the community here that has not received help and support this directly. The other articles are full of hope for standers. But there is also a large percentage of people here who are not standers at the current time but are still dealing with the fallout of MLC in their lives and the lives of their children, as well as rebuilding and redefining themselves. They appreciate hope and support as well. Hope for all comes in focusing on their journey rather than that of the MLC person which is the message in the blog for me.
By giving some hope and support to them, I don't see a zero sum. Hope is not a commodity of limited quantity where one's gain is another's loss. Support is not a zero sum either. I think we should all have hope in ourselves, our choices, our beliefs, our strength in living through this, our decisions in how to get through this, and our support systems which includes our faith and spirituality, to name just a few things. HS is large enough and has enough love to offer hope and support to both standers and those not standing I should hope.
Rcr wrote from her heart and her life experiences and observations, and expressed her opinion on her forum reaching out to a group of people largely not focused on before in her writings. They were just as worthy of her words of hope and support as other people here I would think.
Lp
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Here's the thing, at least for me, that the circumstances of what we all are deeming to be MLC in our spouse (or ex-spouse in my case) is similar, but also uniquely different.
For that reason alone, a person could never predict who will attempt a return anymore than we could predict who would fall victim to a MLC.
We are all different. The problems in our Ms and Rs were different. The only real thing that is the same is that our partners decided to leave the relationship. I personally think my xh is an emotionally weak individual, who is suffering from bipolar, but that is just my assessment, and doesn't change what he decided to do. It is just a label, nothing more. It doesn't make this hurt any less or give the situation anymore clarity, so it really doesn't matter.
What is important to acknowledge though, is that you must start living a life based on you....your likes, dislikes, beliefs, values, etc. What you believe affects your choices, and ultimately it is your choices and actions that will be the main attracting force in your life. What you perceive, you believe, and what you believe, you achieve. Live for you. That's all you can do.
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I also don't think RCR was trying to destroy hope. But that is how it come across to me. I and not a stander, and I still dealing (or am I?) with the fallout of MLC, I know most marriages will not reconcile and, yet, to me there was a curb hope tone in the blog post.
It may be the wording, it may be how I read it.
The parts of the blog post about focusing on us I agree with 100%.
Hope is not a commodity of limited quantity where one's gain is another's loss. Support is not a zero sum either. I think we should all have hope in ourselves, our choices, our beliefs, our strength in living through this, our decisions in how to get through this, and our support systems which includes our faith and spirituality, to name just a few things. HS is large enough and has enough love to offer hope and support to both standers and those not standing I should hope.
I could not agree more.
I would not like to see HS become a place where there is only one type of people/idea(s). That would not be interesting, would not allow for thought, would not allow for growth.
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WoW, this thread blew up in a hurry. Just a couple points: It seems there is a divide here among two main differing view points on RCR recent blog post. Some seem to think RCR has changed her "stance"; I don't see it that way. I forgot who said it, but I just see her as presenting her findings after x amount of time of observation.
Again, I appreciate the honesty of her findings. There was a couple posts that inferred that the LBS is so shell shocked in the beginning that they needed a soft place to land and weren't ready for the reality of the likelihood of the survival of their marriage. I disagree. As HARD as this is for ALL of us, at no time should the 'odds' be hidden, or the likelihood be "sugar coated".
And even though this is the first time I recall RCR mentioning the odds dwindling with time, I did not take away a lack of hope in her message at all.
Just remember, HOPE and ODDs are NOT mutually exclusive. But it would be nice to know up front EXACTLY what you are up against. I don't see how presenting the truth can be bad in any way-even if its not what we want to hear at the time.
-T
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Back again; different tack.
I don't think RCR has introduced any new findings. It's made clear there are no stats and data that are kept. And the researchers here would probably agree it would be difficult to track any data on this forum that would make for valid research.
I suspect instead she was using an expression to encourage people to focus on themselves and not 'expect' that standing will bring about a reconciliation. Which is absolutely true.
In my opinion (which is well known), there were discouraging elements to the content and delivery of that message.
There is research which identifies that, of separated couples, only a percentage of them get back together. And of those that get back together, "most" do so within a certain period of time. Generally, the 80/20 rule (Pareto Principle for those who like to get fancy) seems to apply to reconciliation, too.
It is impossible to find all of the potential variables regarding time, children, OP, etc., so I'm not even suggesting it. Those are an 'individual milage will vary' scenario.
Keep in mind percentages are not probability, and probability is not the same as odds. This is why words, and interchangeable use of words, paint a different picture than the numbers do.
Lets take a look at some percentages, and apply them to the probability of reconciliation, and what they would mean in terms of odds, in the hope that numbers might balance what -- in my opinion - words did not.
Odds are not guarantees of course. In my younger days I was a pari-mutual teller at the local horse race track, so I got to know odds -- and the good and the bad of unlikely odds -- pretty well.
Lets say that only 1% of separated couples reconcile. (That's low by the way - the research I've seen is generally between 10% and 20% of separated couples reconcile). I've rounded some of the percentages to keep things simple in the chart below.
If 1% of separated couples reconcile, the odds are 1:100 for reconciliation
At 2%, odds are 1:50 will reconcile
at 3%, odds are 1:33 will reconcile
at 4%, odds are 1:25 will reconcile
At 5%, odds are 1:18 will reconcile
at 10%, odds are 1:9 will reconcile
at 15%, odds are 2:11 will reconcile
at 20%, odds are 1:4 will reconcile.
at 25%, odds are 1:3 will reconcile.
at 31%, odds are 5:11 will reconcile
at 50% odds are 1:1
I don't know about anyone else, but even at 1%,"the odds" are more favourable than CallingHeart's lottery ticket.
And even at the lower end of the research, if 10% of separated couples reconcile, the odds are 1 in 9 one *could* see a reconciliation.
Just wanting to add a little dose of context to "the odds".
Gamblers and standers, rejoice. 8)
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That made me smile, Onward :).
And for the record, I agree with you -- there is nothing wrong with the message that standing doesn't mean your spouse will return, but I also agree that it did sound discouraging. It is in the delivery, I think.
And I am definitely one who knows that standing doesn't bring about a return in and of itself. The MLCer still has to go through their journey (or not), and then decide to do so....
And so do we. I'm still a work in progress.... :P
I went back and read her articles on standing, where she absolutely encourages standing, while at the same time absolutely states that it isn't a guarantee. I think where some are worried is that it may appear, even if not at all intended, that she is moving from that position, which she may not at all be doing.
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When I first stumbled onto this site, I was a mess. A hot blubbering mess of bewilderment and yes denial. ;)
In the early days, I needed hope and structure, a framework that would make sense of nonsense that is Bomb-drop. I asked H point blank whether it was an exit affair during MC. If he wanted so much to be gone, I would not stand in his way. :-\ Honestly, it would have been a relief because it would then make some sense of his totally bizarre behaviour.
Of course the path of MLC never did run smooth ::) :o :o and "cake eating" with a clinging boomerang would continue at an accelerated rate for the next 8 months. I needed to learn so much, amongst the many lessons, these stood out :
Hope vs Expectation
the Unconditionals vs Boundaries
Letting go while still Standing
Each little step in the process comes when the lesson is learnt and the lesson was learnt when I was ready -- physically, mentally and spiritually. Not before. I came here for clarity and a shoulder and a safe venting place. I got that in spades but the journey is my own, nothing "happened" or clicked inside me till I was ready. But I wouldn't have made it without fellow LBSers walking alongside, cheering, commiserating and sharing their research and experiences.
I don't think this is a place of "my way or the highway" or even "I told you so". Trying to second guess what the articles are "meant to say" or the intent of the articles behind what is plain reading of the articles, is again IMHO, an exercise which would sap what little positive energy I still have/had.
Saying "do this" or "do that" is less productive, I think, than saying "look inside yourself, what are the alternative actions you can take and can you live with the consequences of those actions?"
Because all we have, at the end of the day, is ourselves. That is why the mirror work was essential and imperative for me and I believe so many here at the start. I didn't want to think of my H as "bat$hiT" crazy or a horrible "a$$h**e" for any length of time because it just brought with it a whole host of negative energy into MY life. And I could not view my H in that way and still have compassion for him. :) I just took it to mean (this is a long lesson to learn btw ;) ) that it was his journey and his lessons to learn.
So many of us have decades with our spouses. If they had always been this way, it would not have been unexpected. Sure, milder forms of behaviour we see existed but that I think is of the human condition but to take their behaviour at this time as characteristic of their core personality? I think that is one of the hallmarks of MLC -- the blindsided spouse.
I may not be able to "love my MLCer back" but I can "love myself back" to wholeness and healing. That is my hope. That is what I got from the article and all the RCR articles.
Peace and strength.
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I read the article and saw no difference than when I first came. Then saw the rumblings RCR changed her stance so I read again, then again and again trying to find a difference and see none.
I trust in the MLC process according to my understanding. I don't feel 'standing' per se will help reconciliation yet if you really gain understanding of MLC, then you see exactly what the process is.
I feel if you were committed to your R before MLC, then you stay committed during and after whether you call it standing or not. I don't feel religion should have anything to do with your values and morals, yet that is an entirely different topic.
If your words were true when you committed to your R, they should remain true in 'sickness' and health. (my opinion) Reconciliation should happen once the MLCer heals their issues and the MLC was a successful one. I fully trust the process.
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BBHelp and Terrified,
I completely agree with both of you. Very well said.
I guess what I'm hearing is some long time standers took this as an assault on their standing, which I don't understand.
I thought RCR made some very valid points in her article. I didn't find it discouraging at all.
It's more in tune with how I think now, 6 years later. If I had read this as a newbie I doubt I would have seen it as discouraging.
It's more realistic, yet I would have found it was giving me truths to think about. One of the first articles I read when I first joined this site was the stages of MLC, which were so helpful for me in understanding what my H was going through. Problem is I saw the "2 year" time frame and hung my hope on that.
I think any of us who have been at this for awhile have learned 2 years is usually only the beginning, not the norm.
I think you can gently support people without giving them false hope. Hope, but not unrealistic hope.
To me it's more important we concentrate on their healing.
Hope this made sense, I'm still on my first cup of coffee of the morning. :)
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I suspect instead she was using an expression to encourage people to focus on themselves and not 'expect' that standing will bring about a reconciliation.
Which is absolutely true.
I agree!!
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It seems there is a divide here among two main differing view points on RCR recent blog post. Some seem to think RCR has changed her "stance"; I don't see it that way.
I guess what I'm hearing is some long time standers took this as an assault on their standing, which I don't understand.
I thought RCR made some very valid points in her article. I didn't find it discouraging at all.
I read the article and saw no difference than when I first came. Then saw the rumblings RCR changed her stance so I read again, then again and again trying to find a difference and see none.
It can be useful to reread both this blog and the earlier artcles to see that this is not a change in stance. I don't recall RCR advocating standing forever for all LBS, as a general course of action, but she does acknowledge Covenant Keepers and the length of time as a personal decision as long as standing is not static. One reason a reposting of a fundamental message, can be useful when a group has been around for a period of time, is that original interpretations, and the way things are communicated to or understood by newbies may take on a life of their own. Someone in a position like RCR might feel that the message or perception is skewing in a certain direction, or an important aspect is being missed leading to potential misunderstandings, or a sense that if an LBS does everything exactly "right" a spouse will return and if the spouse does not, it must mean the LBS did something wrong or is not as worthy, or doesn't have as strong a faith, or was not as loved as much as an LBS whose spouse does return. This can have devastating consequences to the rest of a person's life and to their psyche. So whatever RCR was seeing on the board, that led to her believing this was an important blog, I believe she was trying to do right by the members.
I have noticed that if I read the same book at different stages in my life, I perceive entirely different things from it and my view of what the author was saying may change. But I don't always revist books and I go through life with only the earlier understanding of it from an my earlier set of perceptions and experiences. It can be difficult to go back through the MLC articles and revisit the memories of those early days or we may have read them so many times we think we have them memorized, so a new blog may encourage more people to revisit a fundamental message and have a clearer understanding of what an author was trying to communicate or, in RCR's case, she may have determined that with more observation and experience, she would have said things differently or more directly and feels it's important to do that now. As others have mentioned here, that doesn't however mean a change in stance or anything that is more discouraging. It may simply be that we took different things from the articles in earlier days or didn't take in the parts that we weren't ready for and that, seeing those pieces now, feels like a change.
Beyond the articles and blogs, one of things that is different on the board now from the early days is that we aren't all at the same place. It was much more simple when we were all newbies and all on a similar timeline and in a similar place and were a small connected group with optomistic hope because time had not shown us anything different. Being up to 4000 members is a huge change as is the fact that enough years have past that we know more, have observed and experienced more. Some have left the board, some have remained standers, some no longer identify as standing, some have divorced by choice or force, some have new partners in their lives, and some have reconciled or are in process. This growing, aging board requires more tolerance, more patience, more caution with our words, more understanding and compassion, more walking in another's shoes. It also, and naturally, creates subdivisions based on beliefs, timelines, stages, and so on. It's not manageable to keep up with 4000 people so there is a natural gravitation toward certain shared beliefs, stages, circumstances, etc. That is normal and does not need to be errosion of the board or the message. It just requires more diligence to also remain an overall community because, no matter where we are on our own journey and the decisions we make that are best for us in any given moment, we all came here very similarly treated and very similarly devastated seeking understanding and support. That has not changed.
Phoenix
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I don't recall RCR advocating standing forever for all LBS, as a general course of action, but she does acknowledge Covenant Keepers and the length of time as a personal decision as long as standing is not static.
I think that this is true and this discussion and the one on the mod board is exploring what that length of time is and how all of us continue to move forward in a healthy and mature way.
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"We are all capable of helping and hurting. We are all giving at times and selfish at others. Every last one of us has the potential for darkness and light. So forgive others, forgive yourself, look for light in the world, and shine your own. And never forget that people can grow and change. Never stop believing in the healing power of love and kindness. And most importantly, never stop believing in yourself.”"
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I think that this is true and this discussion and the one on the mod board is exploring what that length of time is and how all of us continue to move forward in a healthy and mature way.
I don't know that we, as a board, can or should determine a specific length of time or that people are moving in a healthy and mature way. That is so personal and for individual reasons. We won't all agree on each other's decisions or paths, if in context of our own lives, circumstances, faith and philosophies, but we don't have to. Information and support can be offered, but I believe we have to let go of any need to judge or determine that for another and leave people to their own process and their own outcomes.
Phoenix
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I had posted a while back on how long is too long to stand.... Crazy me, sometimes I think this whole thing should certainly have a time line.. ::) BD or standing it does not really.
I worry about lost time that I cannot get back... I'm 51 and feel like I'm missing all this quality time with my spouse. So I had to sit and do some work on ME. I had reverted back to not being good to me and moving on in my life without H.
So,I'm GAL once again, trying to move forward where I feel God is leading me....one day at a time.
This takes years, with no guarantees. Why not work to be the better person that comes out of this.
I miss my H, I miss waking up to him, ending my day with him, and everything in between... And I have realized that unless my God sends me in another direction, all I can do is remember all the great things about what I had, and maybe just maybe will have again, only better... Time after all, it's not a bad thing. Time is living, time is loving, time is giving. It is truly a Gift
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I think that this is true and this discussion and the one on the mod board is exploring what that length of time is and how all of us continue to move forward in a healthy and mature way.
I don't know that we, as a board, can or should determine a specific length of time or that people are moving in a healthy and mature way. That is so personal and for individual reasons. We won't all agree on each other's decisions or paths, if in context of our own lives, circumstances, faith and philosophies, but we don't have to. Information and support can be offered, but I believe we have to let go of any need to judge or determine that for another and leave people to their own process and their own outcomes.
Phoenix
Hear, hear -- Completely agree - which was the motivation for my non-addressed questions at the very beginning of this thread. There is a fine line between information, and interference.
For what it's worth, I don't think RCR is seeing much on the forum at all. She herself has said she is very busy with several young children and cannot spend time here as she once did. Completely understandable.
So I suspect RCR is guided and counciled by the moderator team. And the moderator team is a group of people who bring their own range of perspectives and experiences and stances. So that range of inputs is inevitably going to have sway. I suspect what RCR sees on the forum is only the slices that are drawn to her attention now.
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I'll just add one more thing. When I arrived in December of last year, I looked around at many many people's status looking for hope and most said 'Divorced and Done' which I found very discouraging.
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So I suspect RCR is guided and counciled by the moderator team. And the moderator team is a group of people who bring their own range of perspectives and experiences and stances. So that range of inputs is inevitably going to have sway. I suspect what RCR sees on the forum is only the slices that are drawn to her attention now.
Sorry Onward but that is not how it works.
RCR sees much more than you think and has taken enormous care over allocating mentors to newbies by reading the threads and personal emails in detail. She is also coaching individual members. More often than not she will point things out to us and any guiding is when we may have had greater contact or communication with a member or so. We are invited to be a mentor and RCR is the one who does that after studying our responses to others as well as keeping tabs on our own progress. We don't have to accept and indeed there are some fab people on the forum who have been invited and turned it down.
Our discussions are very diverse, interesting and at times frustrating. However, some of our discussions are in response to something that RCR has noticed or observed when reading a range of threads. If we raise separate certain points or concerns she will respond with her perspective.
None of us would ever assume we could "sway" or guide her opinion or ideas.
I'm not quite sure why you would wish to make such comments about the mentor/mods team. We are an incredibly diverse range of people with hugely different experiences, viewpoints, some of us standing and some of us not. Some with vanishers, some with clingers, some with wallowers. Some of us have careers children and some of us don't. Some of us have small children, some have grown children and some have grandchildren and some don't. Some of us agree with other mentors at different times and then disagree at others.
As Phoenix states so eloquently:
This growing, aging board requires more tolerance, more patience, more caution with our words, more understanding and compassion, more walking in another's shoes. It also, and naturally, creates subdivisions based on beliefs, timelines, stages, and so on. It's not manageable to keep up with 4000 people so there is a natural gravitation toward certain shared beliefs, stages, circumstances, etc. That is normal and does not need to be errosion of the board or the message. It just requires more diligence to also remain an overall community because, no matter where we are on our own journey
The one thing we all have in common, though is the desire to help newbies and LBsers who face MLC and feel lost, lonely, hurt and bewildered. We are all volunteers - we all have busy lives to live and we all do what we can when we can. There is no hidden agenda - the only agenda is how to help others deal with this traumatic and life changing situation that we are all thrust unwillingly into.
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Songanddance, I'm sorry if my comments read as a criticism of the moderator team. If they caused negative feelings, I am sorry.
I said exactly the same thing you did - that there is a very diverse group of moderators, and your perspectives are going to have sway. It's impossible that they wouldn't. That's not how community works, or teams work.
My comment was in response to Phoenix's comments, and my point was that RCR doesn't have the time to provide the same singular thought leadership to the board she once did. She has said so herself.
I said nothing about a hidden agenda, and haven't even suggested there is one. I said nothing about the mentor team.
I realize I have a direct way of speaking. And that directness is obviously viewed as criticism, when it is not the intent. I'll work on that.
Perhaps if the lens on me were more one of recognizing that my comments also come from a place of care and support, that would also help.
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There are very few online communities that I've found in my search for information where the LBS' decision to Stand is encouraged or supported, especially for long-term Standers like myself.
I think we all come here knowing -consciously or subconsciously- that the odds are not in our favor. I would have found it very discouraging if I was reminded of the odds everywhere I turned.
I know there are some of us who want to protect newbies who show up on our community doorstep (i.e., learn from our mistakes so do this, that, and the other) but part of the journey for the LBS is to detach, let go, surrender, accept, and trust the process.
Because ultimately, IMHO, it's has nothing to do with the odds. It's about holding space and bearing witness to one another as we heal.
It is my hope for THS to be a place where each of us are able to show through our words and actions that all community members are valued regardless if you agree with someone (or not) and a place where we can practice grace and kindness with one another.
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The funny thing about all of this is -
if this were cancer - people would act much differently.
Well BD is like getting a cancer diagnosis.
All cancers are different.
Some can be treated and have great success - others are gravely serious.
Lets look at a serious stage 4 cancer.
The patient and family goes in for the diagnosis.
The very next questions usually are about treatments and....
probabilities for recovery.
In the case of pancreatic cancers -
the survival rate is very low - 5-6% (similar to the divorce and remarriage rate)
Patients want to know that statistic.
Because with that knowledge - you can make informed decisions.
Some choose not to go forward with more treatment - and choose palliative care.
Others choose some treatment - but not drastic medical intervention.
Others use every medical means possible to fight the cancer.
Most lose the battle - 95% die.
But its not about the final survival rate -
it is about how you want to live the rest of your life - knowing the odds.
Those that choose to fight with every medical means have no guarantee of a better outcome,
but it is how they want to live their life.
I think this is very similar to what RCR has done with the most recent post.
She has expressed how serious the situation is with MLC and the health of the marriage.
She has stated the odds as she sees it from her perspective.
Strangely - no one faults a Dr for stating the life and death odds.
In fact it would be considered malpractice not to disclose the risks of a serious illness.
And the odds are not in stone - they are guideposts.
If you are in the 5-6% cure rate - then from your perspective - there is a 100% cure rate (for yourself).
No Dr says - "have no hope" - they simply explain what the chances are - so that proper planning can happen.
Yet I am hearing LBS posters basically say - "don't tell me what I don't want to hear."
How very sad -
because knowing the odds does nothing but allows the LBSer more choice as to how they want to proceed with their lives.
And isn't choice the very thing we were robbed of at BD?
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Air:
Using your cancer analogy, if I choose --already knowing that the odds are low-- to continue my chosen path of treatment, should the Doc (and his assistants) keep telling me that the odds are not in my favor? Where does patient choice and agency come into play once the odds are shared?
And if many of the patients --who are part of the cancer center patient community-- say "hey... that's not so helpful when you tell me what the odds are" [because we already know the odds suck for this horse race] .. why would you disparage their voices/feedback to improve patience care?
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I have to disagree Airmid. When my Brother was diagnosed with cancer two years ago, we didn't give 2 figs about the "odds". All we cared about was what can we do to try and fix this? What can we do to make sure we are doing all that we can do......support groups were there to encourage us not to give up hope. They let us rant and they let us cry and they let us ask questions and they empathized with us and told us about people who recovered.
As the disease progressed and treatment after treatment did not produce the desired results, we began to understand all on our own that the "odds" were against us. Did the Doctor tell us up front that our "odds" were not good? No, he told us about treatment, did everything he could do, gave my Brother tools to make his life more comfortable and walked through this awful ordeal with us.
I shudder to think what my Brother's outlook would have been had the Doctor walked in the door and said "Well you have a 95% chance of dying of this." He told us it was serious, but that we were going to do everything in our power to get through it. I much prefer that advice to going right to brutal truth in the midst of a shocking and traumatic diagnosis........
We all know that the odds are stacked against us. I don't think we need to have that message in our face as we are reaching out for support.......that message as opposed to the ones I received when I got here would have certainly changed the choices I made and NOT for the better in my opinion. Just my .02, my perspective, my opinion and my experience.
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So like cancer MLC does have hard statistics? or not?
On one hand the mentors say "odds go down with time" and "like pancreatic cancer there is a 5-6% survival rate (similar to divorce and remarriage)" but when we ask about statistics, Oh no there aren't any reliable statistics, focus on yourself, don't think about your odds or chances.
I'm confused.
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Good Afternoon Handpuppets,
Using your cancer analogy, if I choose --already knowing that the odds are low-- to continue my chosen path of treatment, should the Doc (and his assistants) keep telling me that the odds are not in my favor? Where does patient choice and agency come into play once the odds are shared?
If one chooses the path of treatment, the doctor would not keep telling the person the odds are low since it was already discussed once ("already knowing the odds are low").
However, in this case, I am not aware that RCR ever came out directly and discussed this. Therefore, one could say the "doctor" did not "keep" telling the patient that as this was the first time.
And if many of the patients --who are part of the cancer center patient community-- say "hey... that's not so helpful when you tell me what the odds are" [because we already know the odds suck for this horse race] .. why would you disparage their voices/feedback to improve patience care?
The problem there I would suggest is that not all or even most patients may feel that way. The doctor has an ethical duty and legal duty to provide all information necessary to make informed decisions. Since party x does not want to know, does that mean I should also not be told because it may offend party x?
I guess it has been a pretty even split on the responses to the blog post with some preferring to discuss/read this and others preferring not to. Should one side decide for all? Or is personal choice not also involved. If I'm not interested in a topic, I don't read it, particularly if it has no bearing on my decision.
Lp
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I have to AGREE with Airmid.
I don't think that brow beating members with the odds does any good and I agree that would hurt the overall message of the 'standing' forum, BUT I dont think any of us are asking to do that at all.
Just repearing what I said many pages back-although the articles make it clear there are no guarantees, they way the read (to me) suggests a high degree of likelihood the MLCer would eventually come out of it. I know I slso read that MLC takes TIME, a LOT of time. But it seems the longer it goes on, the less likely r will happen.
Maybe it was the way tge articles were written; maybe it was the way *I* interpreted them, but I would much rather have known up front what I was dealing with. Someone above said we all know the odds were low, so no use repeating it. I disagree-I didn't know that at all. I was just told there were no reliable statistics. I would have appreciated a more blunt approach. Oh it would have hurt reading it, but I would have appreciated knowing it up front.
-T
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On one hand the mentors say "odds go down with time" and "like pancreatic cancer there is a 5-6% survival rate (similar to divorce and remarriage)" but when we ask about statistics, Oh no there aren't any reliable statistics, focus on yourself, don't think about your odds or chances.
I am one of the mentors who would NOT agree with the above, there are others who don't either.
I don't know where this divorce and remarriage rate of 5-6% comes from. As we know, statistics can be slanted in many different ways, and there is no real "scientific measurement"being used to substantiate this type of statistic.
I would caution about throwing out statistics without stating the source of where they came from.
As well, I would not clump marriages whose partner are having a MLC in the same category of other marriages that end in divorce.
A lot of what has been said here is the viewpoint of each individual poster...and there is not a consensus by any means.
There are several people who have stated that they found the comments about the "odds being against them" and the "longer the timeframe the less likely will be a reconciliation" as being discouraging to them. There are also several positive things in RCR's blog and I don't think that the debate is about most of the blog...but those two phrases are the ones that some of us have difficulty as there is no proof to substantiate them.
Other's may not read interpret them in the same way but indeed, several people have stated that they do find these two points discouraging.
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The problem there I would suggest is that not all or even most patients may feel that way.
But you have no way of ascertaining that unless the patient asks. If you just tell them up front, they are being deprived of the choice to know or not to know. Rather than just coming out and hitting them over the head with the dismal "odds", why can't they be focused on treatment and help. If the discussion about "odds" comes up, then address it.
If I'm not interested in a topic, I don't read it, particularly if it has no bearing on my decision.
The problem with this is that a lot of crushed and emotionally fragile people land on this site not knowing what their decisions are going to be. They are looking for help and comfort. They are looking for assurance that they are not crazy! They are looking for a laugh now and then. They are looking for information and direction. It most definitely has a bearing on their future decisions.
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Xyzf-forgive me-im typing on a phone right now, but RCR posted those two statements in her latest blog, and it dounds as if you are completely dismissing them as unsubstantiated opinion...we all know there are no EXACT statistics on something that can't really be qualified anyway, but I would trust RCR's best estimates based on how long she has been at ghis and the research she has done. While she doesn't cit exact figures (how could she possibly) , I do believe her two statements are true based on her observations.
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I just wanted to add, and I hate saying it this way as it sounds as if I am criticizing, and I do not mean to be: I think RCR has fone one HELL of a job here with everything she has done from the website to the fourms, the articles, everything...
BUT...without the revalation of those two added statements, I findcthe articles a little bit misleading. Maybe its just where I am in all this, but its just how I feel.
-T
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So like cancer MLC does have hard statistics? or not?
On one hand the mentors say "odds go down with time" and "like pancreatic cancer there is a 5-6% survival rate (similar to divorce and remarriage)" but when we ask about statistics, Oh no there aren't any reliable statistics, focus on yourself, don't think about your odds or chances.
I'm confused.
I have to agree with this. The analogy is a difficult one for me because there are no statistics for mlc. Where did that 5-6% number come from?
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I realize this is a locked thread. I started reading it today and think maybe it will be best if when I complete my reading and response I post it here and THEN go on to the next thread and respond there...to keep my responses with the thread I am responding to.
Please understand, I have only started my reading and mostly skimmed as I prepped the thread in Word for easier reading.
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I first want to give a HUGE Thank you to Phoenix for her great posts on this thread.You did a wonderful job ahead of me of saying many of the things I would have said.
I read and wrote as I read—mostly. Then I went back through and reordered the posts and responses into topics with those that did not fit into a topic at the top. So I am sorry if for the reordering—and now my responses are not in the order I wrote them, but since the posts did fit into a few topics, I thought it would be nice to put them together.
A few of us decided we needed a new category of "If'er" That is someone (like me) who is not in a hurry to pull any trigger because my focus is on MY healing and MY life.... I realized early into this party that I was not the real me anymore and that I needed to recover me. When that is done to my satisfaction, then I will see what life is going to bring me...(and now come the If's)
IF my MLC'er has done the work she needs to do, and
IF she is still interested in who I have discovered myself to be, and
IF I still find the person that she has become to be appealing, and
IF we are both still unattached and available, and
IF we both decide to re-establish a relationship,
THEN a reconciliation MAY be possible..... As RCR Said, there is NO guarantee that any of those IF's will happen and, even if they DO happen, there is no guarantee that everything will work out in the end.....
I like this, may I use it…don’t know when or where, but it is useful?
RCR herself, on this thread, said this topic was controversial on the moderator board.
And posted it anyway.
Spread controversy from the mod board…HA. It exists across the boards and this post was always going to be controversial everywhere; I wrote it with the full knowledge of that. As for posting a controversial topic…I am not going to refrain from posting something because it will be controversial! If you think I steer away from controversy and this is new for me, you don’t know me at all. I was considered a controversial poster at Divorcebusting and I created the discussion topic icon for discussions that might certainly be controversial. I do not promote ostriching the tough topics; I would prefer civil discussions about them, but sometimes those go off the rails and leave civility behind—we are human afterall. As for this discussion, so far I find it beautifully civil and just what I love.
And it sure as heck hasn't encouraged modelling the very thing she said was most important, which is agape love and loving them home.
This is one of your recurring accusations. When I post something with which you disagree or find discouraging you say I am not modelling my own work regarding The Unconditionals. You can certainly keep telling yourself that, but is it helping you and is it helping others? Sorry, it just feels like one of your go-to arguments and I think made with a sieve.
The reality about the odds has nothing to do with The Unconditionals.
Setting Boundaries does not go against The Unconditionals—and that was one of the topics in the post. Some people think Tough Love goes against the Unconditionals and I don’t doubt that the way some define and apply it that might be true, but love that is tough how I define and apply it is in perfect alignment with Jesus and The Unconditionals. That does not mean I am perfect and in my personal life I do get mad and mess up…DUH!
I am sure LP will come along and remind me that I was the first one to say 'just a minute', because I am a 'trouble maker' who RCR has had to "call out" before.
I’ve not seen you as a troublemaker ever. I do think that at times you rehash stuff rather than letting-go though.
I was a more Extreme Stander like you so I get it. I was a member at Jim Conway’s chat, but didn’t really fit in and I did not fit in at Rejoice Ministries either. I loved Jim’s chat and Jim was great, but some of the LBSs seemed toxically stuck and they were the leaders which meant they were the ones influencing the others and thus new people were being kept stuck. I was a troublemaker—to them! Well here at HS I welcome differences of opinion like you bring. Over there I was a trouble maker for things like supporting gay marriage—or simply not blasting homosexuality as being sinful. I was a troublemaker because I did not want to censor Neal Donal Walsch’s Conversation With God books—I love those books!
What can be concerning is when someone who is stuck/victim and/or in denial is a leader—as a moderator or not—and unintentionally influences others on the same path toward becoming stuck. I’m not saying that is you or not because I don’t know. I see you rehash things that might be better off to release and I also see you strong in what you want as a Stander. Maybe we all get to be a bit of both.
RCR rarely posts here. But she does appear when I express my views. Often shortly after you do.
Once is a coincidence.
Twice is a surprise.
A third time is definitely a pattern.
Or still a coincidence. My previous post on this thread was just to let everyone know I will read and post, but that I was at that time busy. I posted in one of the few moments I had available and paid little to know attention who had posted directly before me—I still don’t know now.
…the site has expanded to try and meet the needs of all people...regardless of whether it goes against the mission statement or what used to be the intent of this site.
Given that I wrote the Mission Statement and it is MY mission, I will state that this stuff people are perceiving as new does not go against the mission of the site. At least not the stuff of mine. I cannot speak for the opinions and posts of others and we try to moderate so that the mission is upheld by those giving support. To those who feel that I am going against my own mission, consider that you did not understand it and are viewing it through your personal filters. The message of this latest blog post is not new, what is new about it is the emphasis. In previous posts I leaned toward the softer approach and couching my words with additional statements of hope and other asides. I will discuss that more later, as there is a post later that may be ideal for such a response.
The awesome thing about controversy is that it causes people to think.
:)
It is discouraging because it is a message people already receive on a day to day basis, and did not expect in a place where they thought they are understood differently.
It is discouraging because it doesn't acknowledge the commitment and energy many members of this board put into healing themselves, and standing against the very societal forces referenced in the post. Instead, it's adding that same societal message.
It is discouraging because it implies a quiet life is not a healing life.
It is discouraging because it singles out a particular group of people for no particular reason and with zero evidence.
And what is MORE discouraging is there is no apparent willingness to acknowledge that it is discouraging.
You don’t need me to acknowledge something is discouraging to you. It is not discouraging to all LBSs. Though I had not yet responded when you wrote that and I did acknowledge it is discouraging—the odds—in my response to NAH’s post.
As for implying a quiet life is not a healing life…given that my own Stand was a quiet sort that is silly, but more important it does not imply that because for it to do so I would have intended it that way; you are inferring that from the post and I cannot control your inference.
And it was discouraging and critical of those who are deemed standing for something other than themselves or 'waiting' -- the description of which has never been provided and the message of which seems you're doing it too long, you're probably doing it wrong. And if you're praying about it, you're delusional. Which is not so great.
You are putting in a lot of things that I did not say at all. The irony is that I was a long-term or extreme Stander and I would be that today as well. What I see are some of those from that place not Standing in ways that benefit them personally or their Stand.
I went back and read her articles on standing, where she absolutely encourages standing, while at the same time absolutely states that it isn't a guarantee. I think where some are worried is that it may appear, even if not at all intended, that she is moving from that position, which she may not at all be doing.
My position regarding Standing is as it was back when Chuck was in MLC and I was a Stander; I did not waiver then and my position has not now. Back then what I struggled with was the same stuff I struggle with now. Some of my earliest articles—such as MLC Takes Time referenced below—were written then and posted on my DB thread. My struggle was about how much of the reality to tell. I have always had hope of increasing the odds while accepting that I’m just one tiny candle in a hurricane of divorce culture. How do we deal with the fragile newbie—how much can they handle. This latest blog post has been in the works for a few months and in my first drafts where I was just brainstorming my words I said it was meant for the longer term standers or just not the newest LBSs. The thing about that is that I can’t censor it from one group and I have requests for posts geared toward people farther along.
My other struggle was the do as I say not as I do sort of thing. I could tell that there were LBSs out there who were not able to handle the situation in the same way I was—let’s face it I let him move in and out multiple times and I don’t regret it and yet I really don’t think that is going to be beneficial for the healing of most LBSs. As My3girls pointed out, I did not have children at the time. I took a lot of risks and I did calculate them—not literally, but I took action with my eyes wide open.
So today some of the struggle is how to give a message to one group without that message discouraging the other group and how to give a message to the other group without the one group feeling I’m selling them ocean front property in Kansas--what will they think when they realize they are really in Oz?
For what it's worth, I don't think RCR is seeing much on the forum at all. She herself has said she is very busy with several young children and cannot spend time here as she once did. Completely understandable.
Oh this is absolutely true and I even say it as a part of my Mentor-Moderator Duties post stickied at the mod board. I typically check in every day, but don’t read a lot. I check my PMs and look at the mod board to see what running discussions we are having as that is often where people bring up board issues—though mods also PM me about issues. The Mod Team is my Advisory Board and they are my ears by design. I wanted a team to mentor newbies and others who need it AND to help me not only with the technical board stuff, but with keeping up with the day-to-day life of the community. I am a much bigger presence than MWD at DB—I NEVER saw her come on the MLC board when I was there. She’s a busy lady and I did not think it was her duty; I thought it would have been an awesome bonus, but she has a staff for that. I’m not MWD and this board does need my presence more than DB needs MWD, but being a more constant presence is not realistic. In the beginning, I knew a day would come when I had to really step back and rely more on my team and that day came on October 7 2013 as I was holding Baby Blayze and answered the phone call where I was told there was a 10-day old little boy and his 16.5 month old sister in need of a home. My maternity leave got a huge extension!
I probably see more than you think, but yes, often what I see is where I am directed. It is what it is and right now I love…LOVE LOVE LOVE life with the most adorable adorables in the world. I wish I could be here more too, but when I do get to my office I have to spend some of it here and some if it on other HS work duties—like coaching and now I’m in coach training and my time here ends up being a ton of catch-up when there is something to look into.
SongAndDance is correct regarding my care with newbies—though just before the baby arrived in May I delegated the job of assigning mentors to OldPilot. Before that I would write a sometimes long, sometimes brief synopsis of each new poster as I made mentor assignments. I got behind on those too and sometimes a person had a lot of posts for me to read by the time I got to them…it was a big job for me and I am not keeping it up anymore and wish I were, but need to be realistic right now and accept my availability. To me that was important because it helped me keep my finger on the pulse of the newbies and I did continue it after OldPilot started making the assignments, but have not since maybe August.
Time
The inherent contradiction I see is in the role of time, and what is often written here about time.
MLC takes time. A spouse in MLC must work through the MLC before they return -- if they return at all.
Yet, the longer a couple is apart, the less likely a return.
If an LBS believes in the process of MLC, time must do its work.
Yet, an LBS who trusts the process is working against the odds.
There are perceptions that an LBS standing for a long time is waiting or stuck.
Yet, an LBS who hopes for reconciliation must be open to standing for a long time.
These are contradictions.
Standing itself goes against the odds. I was a Stander against the odds and I knew it. Some long-term Standers are stuck, some are not; some are waiting—not living until… some are living full lives.
Unfortunately many do have a generalized perception that the act of Standing or Standing beyond a set time—so long-term—means you are stuck or waiting rather than living a full life. Fewer people here have that perception, but Standers do become sensitive to it and see it where it may not be and some may then use it in arguments where they are avoiding what might be valid advice and observations—sometimes stated in a tough manner, but sometimes stated gently. So some who might be stuck use these arguments against others to enable themselves in remaining stuck—if you are against me, I don’t need to listen to what you are saying.
I figure learning about the MLC "process" is an ongoing effort and therefore a moving target as things are observed.
…
I can't find it now, but there was an article that stated "MLC takes Time. A LOT of time." Although I did find an article with that exact title, it doesn't read like I remember (or maybe it was edited?). In any case it gave an example if you are "18 months from BD, your spouse is in replay. If you are 3 years from BD your spouse is still likely in replay."
And then to find RR's recent blog post that suggest that the further distanced by time from BD the less likely a return is a contradiction to that earlier article I attempted to find.
The article is you are referring to is called MLC Takes Time (http://www.midlifecrisismarriageadvocate.com/standing-actions_progress_mlc-time.html)
Your initial statement that the learning about the MLC process is a moving target is accurate, though most (if not all) of that blog post does not go against what I have said previously. It is just that my emphasis in that post is leaning the other way.
As for there being a contradiction regarding the message of time, it may seem so, but not really. You are talking about two distinct things, the MLCer and the LBS… you bring this up in a later post and my response there was better than what I had originally written here…
Some seem to think RCR has changed her "stance"; I don't see it that way. I forgot who said it, but I just see her as presenting her findings after x amount of time of observation.
You are correct, this is not a change in my stance it’s pretty much always been there. Sure, there are a few things that may be changing as I observe LBSs through time, but in general what I’ve said is stuff that can be found in my other posts; it’s just that I am emphasizing it more here and not including the typical reassurances with it and I have explained why above.
Something new is my wondering about Time. It’s a question I’ve been kicking around for a few months based on some discussions a few mentors and I were having—by PM I think. And then when I look back, maybe I’ve asked it before, but had thought of it differently.
In the past I’ve talked about MLC in a vacuum and wondered what an actual MLC timeline might be without negative external influences—so no traumatized, panicking, beg-n-pleading LBS and no emotionally blackmailing alienator? Can some of the things we do influence it negatively to be longer? Now I guess what the mentor discussion (it started months ago) has done is flip that. Here is what the mentor said followed by some of my comments.
I have a strong bias towards these people getting up on their feet as soon as is practically possible.
The bias comes from my belief that more of the spouses could possibly return in a shorter time frame or with more frequency if the LBS does those things. In effect doing those things may increase the odds a bit for those who desire that outcome. It is not a sure thing by any means and much other [stuff] has to happen as well. However that is one thing that the LBS is in control of when the rest of their world is out of control. As well it is one thing that builds self esteem in the LBS. In truth there is no downside.
Then others step in to tell us that everyone heals on their own timeline, healing takes time… Well, they are not wrong and yet I agree completely with you. This is where it can be so hard. They may be right, but if there is something we can do to help speed up their healing, then it will be better for them. Is there? Maybe for some, but some are more damaged and then there are people who just refuse to be pushed and we need to accept that. What can we do in a manner that will not feel pushy?
… We often look at this from a more negative point of view and consider that those who return will do so earlier and after 4 years the odds go down. Maybe we should change that view and instead consider that our reconciliation success stories are a function of the speed at which the LBS pulled themselves together.
She said it a lot better than I did. My blog post had two subtopics that were about this. The problem subtopic was Time where I framed it in that negative manner. That was the final line of that subtopic, but the main point I was making was geared toward those who really do think that MLCers go through MLC and when they come out they come home or want to come but the door is closed. Not all of you believe that—most of you don’t believe that, but there are some who do and it was not an uncommon idea when I was in the Conway Chat; some promoted it heavily and I feel that is misleading. They really did treat Time as a magic formula. Then I had the Healing subtopic. That was really where I wanted that mentor’s idea to come through. I am only one person and so merely an anecdote rather than a statistic, but my story does support what that mentor suggested.
If I read this I would have been distraught that the clock was ticking and I feel I would have become even more desperate, if that's even possible.
Yes, you are bringing up one f those things I struggle with—I recall even back at Divorcebusting before I started the forum having discussions about what I should say and not say because would something either enable the LBS to feel either guilt/blame or pressure?
So yes, an LBs might feel pressure and get panicky and another LBS might feel motivated to get their butt in gear and heal. I felt that I couldn’t ignore the latter’s need for motivating knowledge/opinion; maybe it will spur them on.
Now instead of learning to focus on ourselves, we feel pressured to hurry up and figure a way to get our spouse back.
What I want you to feel pressured to do—well motivated rather than pressured—is heal and take back your power…your MLCer coming forward (back is a regression) is something they have to do; it is not your job and their being influenced by you as a lighthouse is a byproduct, not the end all. But for many of you—it remained so for me—your Big Goal is about reconciliation rather than your own healing. It was this way for me because I was confident in my own healing. If your Big Goal is reconciliation, I want you to be motivated to focus on you—Mirror-Work, Self-Protection, Healing… because it is how you get to your Big Goal. Many of you eventually come to a place where you are Standing for you. For me it was always about my marriage, but thinking on why that was I think it’s because I had never not been Standing for me—I had not neglected my Self and was still not neglecting my Self. Helping you helps your MLCer and your marriage.
Odds/Statistics
My observation of the forum suggests that reconciliations at 3 – 5 years seem to be the most common.
So, no, the odds aren’t good.
But I’m not sure how reminding people -- who already know the odds aren’t good -- that the odds aren’t good could be anything but discouraging.
I’m sorry to blunt in making this point, but I can’t imagine telling a friend with a cancer diagnosis, “I don't want to discourage you. But, you know, the odds aren’t good.”
You may realize that the odds are not good and you may accept that, but it is not so with everyone. Clearly that message is not meant for you, but it is meant for others.
As for the cancer example, I’ve heard from others using it as an example toward the opposite—they would want their physician to be up front. It really comes down to some want to hear it and some don’t and regardless of what I do I’m not going to please everyone.
Understanding reality from the start, doesn't need to undermine a person's inner resolve or belief that the outcome of your desire is possible. There are many things in life, for which the odds are long, but exceptions still happen. That is a faith that each person must find and hold for herself or himself. It cannot be the responsibility of this forum or the messages here.
I've consistently done things in my life where the odds are stacked against me. The "data" doesn't matter if my internal belief is there. It's too much pressure/responsibility to put on the board or on articles or blog posts and, if too much of an LBS's faith and hope relies on such externals, they can too easily be shaken.
This was my attitude as a Stander. I was going to be the one in ten, one in one-hundred or one in a million. As a Stander, I was going to win the lottery regardless of what statistics said. I had no need for data to support my personal faith in a reconciliation for my situation, what it could have helped me with was to convince others about my Stand…but as it turned out, they saw what was playing out and believed in us from the evidence of my situation rather than any generalized evidence which would have certainly been worse.
I’ve only responded this one excerpt from Phoenix’ post, but the entire post is well worth re-reading as it really does explain why I feel the blog I posted is so important.
To be honest, I have no idea what the point of the blog post was.
The forum and the articles make it very clear there are no guarantees.
I’m pleased that you have found that message clear, unfortunately others have not—even when it is clear people in desperate circumstances often interpret things how they want them to be.
Here is what one moderator said on our discussion at the Mod Board: In some ways I feel that I was sold swamp land in Florida, when I first arrived here...but actually - I clung to the belief that most come through this and most return because it was what I wanted to believe and what I wanted for my life.
The point of the post was to emphasize that the odds are not high and then what we can do to help those odds as well as highlight some of the things people think are helpful, but are not.
Onward, you are a smart lady who does her homework and you catch on and know the reality and are like me in that you are Standing with that knowledge because I am assuming the odds are not what it is about for you. I wish others didn’t care about the odds either, or at least not to a big extent, but people do need to know and not everyone is like you, they need other messages and it is my job to give messages to them as well.
Rollercoasterider’s latest blog post:
Most reconciliations happen in the early years. That is not to say that they do not happen later, but the odds go down with time.
This is still bothering me. I was under the impression that there are not any reliable statistics...so where does this come from?? The single word "odds" tells me that this site is keeping track of returners and the length of time. Is this a fact or is it an opinion? Is there any evidence that backs up this statement? If so, please let us know.
It is an educated opinion.
1
If I am not mistaken, a while ago, RCR had written that most reconciliations happened in the 3-3.5 years mark. That was one of the issues that was debated when this blog post was being prepared by RCR and not all mods/mentors agree with it.
Why was this not stated?
2
What experience tells me is that, yes, the more times goes by the less likely reconciliation will be, but not because the MLCer is not returning, the reason, for me, is the LBS, that often has moved on.
Why was this not stated?
3
For me the others two things are that divorce and not standing do not equal lack of reconnection or reconciliation, or the MLCer wanting to. The former real life MLCers I know were divorced, their spouses did not stand, but the MLCers still wanted back.
Why was this not stated?
That last one was not stated because it is not mine—that is from Anjae herself. It is not an experience I have. As for the others, this is something that I went back-and-forth about. What I did was write the blog post and then showed the mods for feedback. I don’t think I’ve done that with any other post, but given that I knew this one was going to be more controversial, I felt I needed to show them for comments. We mostly worked on the opening—with maybe little or no edits to the subsections.
In the past I have often made a statement and then added a reassurance. Like this: Most MLC marriages will not make it to reconciliation, but many may be due to the LBS no longer wanting to reconcile. Or I make a statement about how my goal is to change the odds—and it is. A few of these made it into some revisions and then came back out because they watered down the bigger point I am trying to make about the long-shot odds. Hey, it’s not a message I like. I would love to tell you with truth that 80% of MLCers return or will want to or that 80% of MLC marriage reconcile, but that is not true and it is FAR from being true. Since people often give more attention to the pieces that fit what they want to hear I needed to take some of those reassurance out this time because I need their attention on the sad and harsh reality. And yes, I know that sad and harsh reality is discouraging. Stand with full knowledge of the odds for the general population and then make your own for you. In other words, you can determine whether the odds will influence you or not.
It is not most people, but some believe that most MLCers will return home even if they do very little—wait out the MLC since MLC takes Time. So I want to give them some things that might be able to increase their chances—and yet still not get them super high, but better than not doing Mirror-Work and not healing.
Some people believe most MLCers return because it was what their faith tells them—God heals and it will happen in God’s Time, but others believe it because they are told or they infer from what they are told/read. Creed is one thing, but being given misinformation that someone takes as fact is another and many take harmful actions or do not act in their best behalf based on that misinformation and it can get people stuck.
I think that RCR has had enough time to make a hypothesis ( whether it's correct or not is not the point ) based on the feedback that she has received here on the forum.
…
How could she not come to some of these conclusions? She has a "live lab" if you will to see how this "experiment" is going.
Thanks. It’s not really scientific, but it’s the best I’ve got right now and it is where I make my guesses.
I have to disagree Airmid. When my Brother was diagnosed with cancer two years ago, we didn't give 2 figs about the "odds". All we cared about was what can we do to try and fix this?
My Dad was diagnosed with pancreatic cancer last year in June or July and died on 21 May—the day we picked up the new baby from the hospital. I wanted to know the odds up front—so it does not seem a case where agreement/disagreement should hold sway in what is posted because some people want to know—as LBSs I find the men really want odds and use them to determine whether to Stand more than women do—and some people don’t want to know. As a Stander I didn’t care because my Stand and my MLCer were not going to be determined by external odds. We just can’t use what one person wants as a statistic about what everyone wants and how I should present the information because many want it this way and many others want the exact opposite.
Speaking with my dad’s BIL at the time of diagnosis I was talking to him about how pancreatic cancer is considered one that is especially aggressive and fast moving (due to it being found late as I understand it). His response was to reassure me by what seemed a dismissing of what I was saying. That was not what I wanted at all. I wanted an acknowledgement of the reality. Of course they were going to do what they could, but I didn’t want them to encourage me to believe something that wasn’t true either—no enabling denial! He was very gentle, but kept up his form of what he probably thought was kind reassurance and for me I found it bothersome and talked to other people instead of him.
So like cancer MLC does have hard statistics? or not?
On one hand the mentors say "odds go down with time" and "like pancreatic cancer there is a 5-6% survival rate (similar to divorce and remarriage)" but when we ask about statistics, Oh no there aren't any reliable statistics, focus on yourself, don't think about your odds or chances.
I'm confused.
No valid/scientific statistics. I’d love to have them, but I think Anjae may have posted some good explanations above as to why we don’t have them…so I won’t repeat.
On one hand the mentors say "odds go down with time" and "like pancreatic cancer there is a 5-6% survival rate (similar to divorce and remarriage)" but when we ask about statistics, Oh no there aren't any reliable statistics, focus on yourself, don't think about your odds or chances.
I am one of the mentors who would NOT agree with the above, there are others who don't either.
I don't know where this divorce and remarriage rate of 5-6% comes from. As we know, statistics can be slanted in many different ways, and there is no real "scientific measurement"being used to substantiate this type of statistic.
I would caution about throwing out statistics without stating the source of where they came from.
I have not found reliable statistics for remarriage rates—which are obviously different than reconciliation since not all people divorce before reconciling. MWD used to say 10% of divorced couples remarry each other and I asked her about it—a few years ago—and she told me she no longer uses that because she can’t find where she got it.
The 5-6% rate you mention is not even something I’ve heard pf before.
I just sent an email to my contact at Dr. Phil to find out if he can direct me to some of Dr. Phil’s sources—hopefully primary sources. Your issue with stats—slanting, source… is mine as well. This is one of the reasons I do not feel there are reliable statistics at this time and if there are, I have not found them yet. If anyone has found primary source data, please let me know—post, but also PM me to make sure I get it.
As well, I would not clump marriages whose partner are having a MLC in the same category of other marriages that end in divorce.
I think this is perhaps the biggest challenge and what is not out there. The MIDUS studies have data on MLC—not necessarily the stats we want, more like rate of MLC. The problem is how they define, who they interview and what questions they ask to make their MLC diagnosis—I think it may have been self-diagnosis based on a description or definition offered by the interviewer.
There are several people who have stated that they found the comments about the "odds being against them" and the "longer the timeframe the less likely will be a reconciliation" as being discouraging to them. There are also several positive things in RCR's blog and I don't think that the debate is about most of the blog...but those two phrases are the ones that some of us have difficulty as there is no proof to substantiate them.
But there is evidence, just not enough to make a definitive conclusion, but to many of us it is pretty significant evidence. An additional challenge is that we can’t make a stat from a maybe or what-if. So would an MLCer have returned had their spouse continued Standing? Some of those returns would not make it all the way to reconciliation, so are we taking data on a full reconciliation and at what point do we say a couple is really reconciled? I’ve thought about this a lot over the years and it can be overwhelming. A study would need to be very large and extensive to pass my validity test—as well as expensive.
I just wanted to add, and I hate saying it this way as it sounds as if I am criticizing, and I do not mean to be: I think RCR has done one HELL of a job here with everything she has done from the website to the forums, the articles, everything...
BUT...without the revelation of those two added statements, I find the articles a little bit misleading. Maybe it’s just where I am in all this, but it’s just how I feel.
Well thank you and I totally get the misleading feeling. I have talked about the odds before, but usually as an aside to reassurance or an aside with reassurance and I think for many the reassurances sort of make them blind to the asides or warnings. I wanted to offer some balance because I agree it can be misleading. People are making serious life changing decisions based on what they read here.
Unsupported
The people who talk about loving their spouses unconditionally, and behaving in ways that love them home, are scoffed at. So they go quiet on the forum, or leave.
Unfortunately this is also true of those who stop Standing and take a more Tough approach. I just shake my head because this year I have regularly seen both sides making the same claims and complaints against each other. Not supported, afraid to post because of being bullied…
There are a few brave people who are willing to write how they feel about what they observe and their opinions are as valuable as the ones who see things differently.
The ones who see things differently are no less brave and feel just as criticized and unsupported.
This feeling unsupported issue drives me crazy! Not because I don’t believe it, but because it is coming from both sides of the issue and sometimes one side doesn’t even see that they are doing the same thing to the other they are accusing the other of doing…that sentence feels confusing. This is a problem among the moderators as well and personally I sometimes feel like Gumby and wonder how far a person can be stretched before breaking. Often I do agree more with one side than the other, but I tend to be the sort of person who likes to here both sides and give both sides a good listen before passing judgment—and just that can be annoying to some people. I try to stay neutral—at least before my research leads me to a conclusion.
Hope
I have an entire chapter on Hope (http://www.midlifecrisismarriageadvocate.com/self-focus_assurances_hope.html) in my manuscript—and at the main site. Here is an excerpt:
Hope is within you. You create it. It’s neither belief in nor prediction of an outcome. The level of one’s hope may not match the probability of success or failure; it’s not about the odds. Hope isn’t faith, which is linked to confidence in an outcome—even in the absence of evidence. You can hope for something while believing the probability is unlikely.
What are you doing with hope? Are you allowing it to point toward solutions, or are you allowing it to enable you to remain passive with the idea that it will solve the problem for you? What are you doing because you hope? Are you clinging to hope, enabling yourself to wait without mirror-work and growth? Or is hope something you keep as a small but significant flame while you go on with your life?
A month ago I tweeted this: Hope is the tiny space between your feet and the ground of despair. It points the way for you to rescue your Self.
Regarding Viktor Frankl and hope. I’ve read his book too and I did not ever get the idea that his hope gave him a false impression of reality. He saw that most people died and knew that there were things that he could do to help and that there were things he could not do.
Years ago I read a YA novel by Jane Yolen. It was fiction about a woman who survived the gas chamber; the book was set years later when she was a grandmother. Jane added a note at the end to say that NO ONE was known to have survived the gas chambers. So millions entered and not a single person survived—not that is known anyway. So not 99.9999999%, but a precise 100%. What would Viktor Frankl have felt had it gotten that far for him? My thought about him is that he had a great sense of peace that was part of his hope and he would have accepted his death with dignity. Regrets…YES. Anger…well yeah, sadness, fear… yes. But would his hope have died once the showers were turned on? What hope? What enabled his hope? Faith? Maybe I’m wrong since I’m just guessing. Some Covenant Keepers Stand with hope for a reconciliation and some—fewer—no longer believe that will happen and Stand because even without that belief, they believe in remaining true to their marriage vows. They still live in the beauty of their faith as did Viktor Frankl.
new thread: http://mlcforum.theherosspouse.com/index.php?topic=8369.0
add above link OP