Midlife Crisis: Support for Left Behind Spouses
Archives => Archived Topics => Topic started by: Mae on April 14, 2017, 01:22:19 PM
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Hi everyone,
I'm onto a new thread now, can someone please link my old thread.
It's nearly 8am in the morning and H has run away again after spending the night with me.
What to say about yesterday.....it was incredibly awkward, sad, bitter-sweet, loving, intimate....I ran through the whole gamut of emotions.
At one point I doubted whether he would make it down to me......whether the universe was conspiring against us to prevent it from happening.
Firstly H had his last day in his job on Thursday and a farewell dinner/evening that's why he couldn't make it down on Thursday night. Then secondly BF (in a drunken state) decides that H being around the general vicinity of his wife was inappropriate and punches were thrown....this is NOT the first time that has happened in fact I can recall at least one other time BF flipped out with my H.....it's all apologies etc the next day but in the meantime it left H kind of stranded Thursday night as he is sleeping on BFs couch. So he got to sleep on someone else's couch that night. Then the next day he got called into work on Easter Friday....yes the job that he officially finished on Thursday....to do some emergency work around flooding in certain parts of the country. Ok fine....he had to work most of the day and then he had to pick up the car from BF and sort out the fall-out from the evening before....that took an hour....again BF apologizes etc. So now he is on the road. He got here at around 5pm.
The first couple of hours are very very awkward......H seems very tired and ready to fall asleep.....little interaction etc. I get upset....then upset with myself because obviously I had 'expectations' when I shouldn't have....so I'm berating myself and taking deep breaths etc. I'm thinking this is crazy....so I tell my H that if he doesn't want to be here or see me then perhaps he should leave.....it turns out that far from not wanting to being here H feels like he's intruding in my house and feels very very uncomfortable....I guess he is seeing how well I am managing the house both inside and out and he's now an 'outsider'. So we work our way through that.....he asks me want I want to do do and I tell him I just want to lie on our bed with him....so we do and well.......stuff happens.....it was wonderful.
Then we decide to get up and catch a movie....we are both sci-fi buffs, so we drive to see 'Ghost in the Shell'.....ok the movie was pretty disappointing but it was wonderful seeing it with him....almost normal.
I don't initiate any R talk but we do talk about his work, the new role he will be going into....we touch on how he's doing, the kids.....generally the stuff we would talk about normally if he were home. I do point out that he needs to move out from staying with BF as his presence seems to be putting pressure on the relationship between BF and his wife. I also discuss his interaction with BF's wife and ask if he has a 'separate' friendship with her i.e. does he text her on his phone etc....he says he doesn't, his interaction with her is generally through BF....ok seems fine there. I ask if there is anyone else........he says there isn't.
We get home and go to bed....lots of cuddles etc. In the morning he tells me his feels 'sick' ......oh was my cooking that bad? NO he says he is beginning to feel like he did when he first left....ok...that I can deal with because I remember that same process happening after BD #2, we would have contact, be intimate etc and then the next day he begins to withdraw again....at least now I understand that process.
How can you feel both 'connected and detached' at the same time? Because I feel both of these things.....and yet these are not at war with one another inside me, it's more like that those feelings which would seem opposites are interconnected, like yin and yang. I feel at once deeply connected to him as my H and the H I have always known and yet separate too, his leaving abruptly this morning was met with compassion and equanimity. I'm not a mess.......in fact once again through this contact I think I have a good 'handle' where my H is at....I'm not cycling, I'm neither sad nor joyful...just kind of calm and accepting.
His progression through his depression is tracking along similar to the one following BD#2 in terms of time.
His is seeing a counselor which he says seems to be helping but has not seen a doctor for medication. I strongly encouraged him to explore that option.
He is going to start looking for his own place now that our finances have been sorted.
He has no idea how to start the repair work on his relationship with D.
In my estimation he has a long way to go.......but then so do I.
He has lost so much weight....he's the slimmest I have seen him, about 82kg....and I'm around 57kg (thank you MLC diet)....he's not eating much, neither am I....more from habit now and the fact that it doesn't take much food to fill my stomach these days.
And now it's back to our regularly scheduled programme. Busy day today for me, a big family dinner for my Mum, gym, looking after grandson.....ok grandson is the busy aspect. I am hoping to spend a day with grand-daughters and a day out in my garden over the Easter holiday break.
Old Thread: http://mlcforum.theherosspouse.com/index.php?topic=8818.0
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I happened upon some photos on an old google email of my H's....from the second BD. They are of him having a good time with friends around New Years 2015. Looking at them brought all the old hurt from BD # 2 up....while he was out having the time of his life, partying it up with friends....some of the pics with a friend of his (girl) really hurt, there is one where his face is pushed up against hers and another one where they are posing on the beach after a swim....I have never ever seen these before.
Gosh it would have been better NEVER to have seen them.....but once seen I can't 'unsee' them....I am sad, hurt and unbelievably angry.....and THIS over BD #2 which I thought I was completely healed from and is all in the past now.
I journalled my feelings in a google doc and saved it to the drive and that has helped immensely. I also renamed all the pics with things like "Having a great time with friends after abandoning wife & kids", or Jerk poser and friend, another one was 'coward and friend'. He hasn't touched that account since 2015.....so all water under the bridge and long since buried.....I wish it could have stayed buried....now I am all angry and upset and SO SAD all over again.....grrrrrr. I SO badly want to send the link to his account to him.
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What a mixed bag Easter has been for me, some good, some not.....
What has been great:
1. Getting to spend time with family....this has redeemed this holiday break. My extended family got together to celebrate my Mum's 70th birthday......the food was delicious. The next day we got to have a great family lunch as well which was also delicious. Today another family get-together but this time I am cooking. Family has been my life-line through this whole crisis and is my number one priority.
2. Spending time with H on Friday....it was sad, joyous and interesting.
3. Being able to call on people to help me fix my flat tyre.....now I can fix a flat tyre (don't need H to do that)....but I can't if I don't have the right tools....made a call to family......and call answered, flat fixed.
Not great:
1. My darling grandson waking up after staying over at 5.30am with a vomiting bug. That was NOT great, copious amounts of vomit, multiple times, multiple changes of clothes, then wham diarrhea as well....up the back....oh joy....so into the bath. Just before lunch I take grandson back to father, just before we arrive.....vomit all over carseat and clothes. Dad starts gagging when we arrive.....so I get to clean up the carseat/clothes and Dad gets to wash son.
2. H not being able to cope after a stayover and quickly departing.
3. Happened upon some old photos that I've never seen before during BD#2 of H out having a great time with friends during New Years 2014 while I was at home alone in pieces looking after kids. This was a major trigger and I blew up into monster mode and wished various nasty incidents upon my H, some involving hot pokers and scissors. Somehow my contact on Friday and this separate incident became all entangled in my head and I had two bad nights in a row involving tears and regression and venting in a google doc which I posted onto his drive and renaming of the photos with hate-filled captions.....I don't know if he has seen/will see them....he may have already read the doc...I don't know. I have since removed the document but left the captions on the pics. I have peeked at some of his pictures that he has taken with his phone since he left which he had saved to google photos.....pretty boring, nothing out of the ordinary.
H did text me yesterday to ask how the dinner went and if I got the tyre fixed and to thank me for letting him see me. I didn't respond. Later I texted him that I sent him some more rental properties to look at. Since then silence has reigned between us.
Today I have achieved a measure of calmness and perspective. I WISH I had never seen those damn old pictures...I was doing fine before that. I was poking around I guess. I had processed contact with H and his subsequent withdrawal fine....then the seeing of the pictures and everything became all jumbled up, BD #1, 2 & 3.
Today I have thought so hard about whether I am on the right track of opening up contact with my H or whether it is a step backwards in my own healing and moving forward.
I know from previous experience that going no contact with H whilst extremely hard and painful allowed me to heal quicker. Maybe I need to rip the bandaid off.....maybe I need to drop the rope completely.....I'm just not sure what to do at this stage.....and then I remember that I can BE STILL.....if I'm not sure then I can also choose to do nothing.
I wanted to look at the options of going contact/no contact with my H in a calm and rational manner (as opposed to having a knee-jerk emotional reaction) with the focus being on what is best for ME as opposed to trying to influence/control H or as an act of vengence against him.
The Pros of No Contact:
1. Puts the focus firmly back on myself.
2. Stops me from constantly checking my phone to see if I got a text from H.
3. I can concentrate on me, healing, moving forward, getting stronger.
4. Stops me from constantly trying to check the oven to see where H is in the cooking process.
5. Keeps 'expectations' in check....no contact means for me 'no expectations'.
6. Allows H to focus on himself without having the 'pressure' of me and any expectations I am inadvertently placing upon him.
7. Removes me from the drama of H's crisis
8. Helps prevent 'cycling'
The cons of no contact:
I'm not sure there are too many cons of 'no contact' but these are some of the things I'm scared will happen if I do go 'no contact'
1. I don't want H to think that I'm abandoning him....I'm not.
2. I want him to know that there is a way back for him.
3. I want to support him and show compassion and patience.
4. If I cut contact I'm afraid it will throw him into deeper depression and possibly into more destructive behaviors such as increased alcohol intake and finding OW/s.
The question I am asking myself is if I am able to have contact with H, showing him compassion, support and patience whilst keeping my own expectations low AND being able to heal and move foward. It's a tricky juggling act and I'm not sure I can do BOTH at the same time.
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Hi Mae,
Welcome to your new thread.
As I read your pro's and con's, it struck me that all the con's are about your H, whereas all the pro's are about you. It looks to me like you feel NC is best for you but are worried still about H's reaction. My thoughts are, this time really needs to be about YOU and what is best for you. I have never gone NC with my H so I am not saying that is best, but I am saying, you need to take this time to heal and grow. You can't keep doing the same things you've done before, it has left you in the same spot you've been at, in the past. Do things for you. Rediscover yourself. What makes you joyful, what makes you sad, about yourself. Work on being the best Mae you can be.
And if you need to go NC to do that, so be it. Learn about yourself. Who are you, not as your H's wife, but as Mae? Your H is on a journey and needs to fully understand himself, or he will just keep getting stuck and repeating this behavior, as he already has. Drop the rope, Mae, and find who you are. I can tell you, it has been my blessing to do this.
I wish you well!
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Oh good observation Noex.....still in a quandry about it...feel a bit stuck but know I need to shift the focus back to me.
Thanks for the support.
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Attaching
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Mae,
I agree with No Ex 100%.
If going NC was helping you heal, it surely must be the right choice.
I don't honestly think any of your con's are valid. They are too much about your fears, not cons.
You can't fear how he will react to NC. It's for you.
How he reacts is on him.
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Thanks for that Thunder, that is what I needed to hear.....couldn't see it myself.
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Mae, I will be constructing a list of my own this week because I am in the same boat. I've just had BD 3 but there is an OW so it should be an easier decision for me but it isn't. Here's the thing, what I did last time did 'work' because we got back together. His crisis happened again but would that have happened anyway? Or more precisely, if I had been harder last time would I have prevented this? (while still getting the relationship). Do I now regret the way I handled it because of where we are at now - NO
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Mae, I will be constructing a list of my own this week because I am in the same boat. I've just had BD 3 but there is an OW so it should be an easier decision for me but it isn't. Here's the thing, what I did last time did 'work' because we got back together. His crisis happened again but would that have happened anyway? Or more precisely, if I had been harder last time would I have prevented this? (while still getting the relationship). Do I now regret the way I handled it because of where we are at now - NO
Hmmm yes quite similar hopeandfaith. I did no contact after BD#2 for probably 3-4 weeks....was very effective (although difficult at first).....in terms of my own healing but after the no-contact period H quickly wanted to come home again. H hasn't got OW to complicate things....if he did it would not only be no contact but no marriage period. How do you cope with OW being in the mix? Do you think of her as a 'symptom', 'a fix'?
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You know Mae... sometimes we do No Contact for the wrong reasons. We convince ourselves that we are giving ourselves some space and all kinds of things... but in fact, we are actually trying to teach our spouses a lesson. We are hoping that they will see how much they need and want us, if they do not see us for a while. It works too, at least it sort of does. We
I say that because, then we turn around and have a "booty call". We convince ourselves that we doing it for ourselves but again, we are not, we are trying to show our spouses how much them miss us. What they are losing out on. Don't get me wrong, it is for ourselves as well, but subconsciously we are trying to teach them a lesson.
The worst part is, that when we do these things, our spouses come home, check us out... and then see that THEIR ANCHOR is still holding. So off they go, completely convinced that they can go on like they are indefinitely. Your h came home to make sure YOU were still where he left you... and guess what... he discovered you were right there... exactly where he had left you. Waiting for him to come home. Still loving him.
As long as they are confident that we will be there whenever they decide to return, there is no need for them to rush back. Your h needs to be really WORRIED that he is going to lose you... but you know something Mae... you can't FAKE THAT! You have to really, truly be willing to lose him and lose him for good. That requires time, distance and detachment. Stop the agony honey... and focus on Mae. Leave him to it.
Hugs Stayed
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Hello everyone,
Time for an update I think. After a couple of hard nights and struggling with contact/no contact issue with H....I have decided to keep in contact with H. I read something about holding onto things that are causing pain and have been processing this internally for a bit.....that and maybe a couple of days later have combined to allow me to feel more settled and in control again. Plus I can no longer get access to H's gmail account, he changed the password so I am blocked from trying to look at his phone pics which give me a glimpse into his life apart from me.....THIS is a great thing in fact....what I can't see doesn't hurt me and it removes the temptation to keep looking again and again and torturing myself. SO.....here's what happened today.
H came down for his doctors appointment....it went well I think and he has started on a low dose course for five days and then increasing after that. We will see how it goes. Did the blood test for everything too. He absolutely hates that he may have to be medicated...hates to even take a simple painkiller for anything. He saw the kids while I was at work....said it felt strange and awkward being at home....yes well this whole thing feels strange and awkward. We had a date for lunch and we talked a bit about everything I guess, how he was feeling, what it felt like to be depressed, his counselling, his work. He said that being home made him feel worse in many ways....maybe that is guilt and being ashamed as well as the depression. Anyway he had planned to stay the night but that all fell to pieces because he got agitated about it and I could see the 'flight' response in him. I said that's fine (I was disappointed, but not overly so). I asked him if he felt emotions like love for us.....he said definitely YES but that it was all 'mixed up with other stuff'....I asked "what other stuff?" and he said it was hard to describe, like buzzing or butterflies, or constant white noise...always in the background......I was kind of fascinated by the description. He also said it comes and goes, he said it had ramped up from this visit. He said that his mind feels cloudy and he can't think clearly or it takes him longer to process stuff at work.
Anyway the positives:
1. He is going to start medication (although he hates the very thought of it)
2. He looked much much better and sounded better apart from the 'flight response' I witnessed, as though being home was 'an overload' on his fragile mind
3. He is hoping to come home at some stage....(he looked at me to confirm that, which I did). I encouraged him to take all the time he needed and that I supported him being away and in his own space. I do not want him to come home anytime soon, I would rather he stay away and get well than come home and get worse.
4. He said he would come down again soon to see me/us.
5. He said he loved me very much.
6. I got a glimpse into his depression clouded mind
7. I felt a bit more connected to his life apart from us.
No negatives for me....even him departing so soon is not a negative as I see it as him trying to manage himself and keep himself stable.
It's hard to transfer my focus away from him back towards myself. But I'm going to do something for myself tonight...I'm going to treat myself to a movie and go watch Beauty and the Beast. Thoughts of going to the gym (which is what I would usually do) just doesn't have quite the same 'treat me' factor.
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I just had a wonderful afternoon with D14. I told her I was off to see a movie and she insisted on coming so we decided to turn it into a movie slash retail therapy session....ok she did most of the shopping, so $300 later (ouch!) we came away with some essential purchases. New sports shoes for D14 for netball and some calf socks. I got some more gym shorts and a top. Then off to the movies....we both enjoyed it immensely. What a great afternoon/evening and I didn't think of H once during that time. Thank you D14, she really has been my lifeline in all of this.....I really feel sorry for H, he is missing out on so much with D14.
So feeling great today. H is looking to return home, is in counselling (which he thinks is helping) and now on meds to manage his depression. I still have my six month plan in mind to work on myself....I feel a lot more confident and closer to Mae. Six months is also a good time frame for H to get sorted with his meds and get his depression and the root causes of his depression addressed. I have a great relationship with D14, out of all of this our closeness has been such a joy. Looking forward to getting out into my garden tomorrow and getting my lawns done.
Oh and I had to laugh (internally of course) at my H today, he asked me again what his budget was per week (our finances are separate) and I told him and he said 'oh that will be hard to manage if rent is $400 a week' and I'm like 'yes it will be, therefore find something that is not $400 per week, perhaps something that is $300 or less is more realistic'....I have no sympathy for that predicament. If you can't afford $400 per week then find something less than that YA KNOW?? You know what else, less contact with H (planned a stayover but all he could manage was lunch with me and a doctors visit together) turned out to be just the right amount of contact for me. No mooning about afterwards, no checking my phone, just a great afternoon with D14 and a great weekend with family and in my garden to look forward to.
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Sounding great Mae, your effervescence just bursts off the page. Glad that you've had some lovely times with H and with D14. I have a D15, D17 and S13 and they are great friends and great fun.
That is a good solid list of things to be grateful for and it really seems like your H is trying to help himself. I think that's half the battle. It feels like all the battle in my sitch.
To answer your question about how I cope regarding the OW's. It's not easy. I hate that they have all probably thought that they were more than they are and I hate to think of what he might have said to them that he also says to me. Torturous really so I try not to think about it. I don't feel threatened by them giving him something I can't. I just see these gals as the many faces of 1 problem. It is taking it's toll though and takes quite a bit of management.
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Hopeandfaith, I'm always slightly amazed that not only you but many others are able to separate the infidelity and see it as an aspect or symptom of MLC. I've said before that I will cut H off if that happened....but you really don't know how you will react or what you will do until you are actually faced with that situation. I would be tortured endlessly by thoughts of what he would be saying/doing to OW, even just imagining that scenario is torture.
Hope things are going okay for you.
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Mae, following along on your journey.
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Hi Mae! I lost you for a bit on here. I have linked your threads and locked the old one.
I am glad that you are finding your stride. I am glad that you and your D had a good time together. I am glad that your H is being proactive about his depression.
Please bear in mind that as he "finds" himself thru medication and counseling, his feelings may change towards returning to the M. He may decide you are the best thing ever, or he may decide that now that he is "well", this is not what he signed up for. I don't say this to rain on your parade, but to keep you vigilant and moving forward with your own life should this not have the outcome you wish and hope for.
Right now he still seems to be using a teenage brain. Not knowing what his finances are and such. I am happy that he can still say I love you. That's a good sign. Few on here get to hear that after they depart.
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D14 sounds like a doll. Great fun for both of you. So nice that you have this sort of bond with your D.
Hugs Stayed
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Hi Mae! I lost you for a bit on here. I have linked your threads and locked the old one.
Please bear in mind that as he "finds" himself thru medication and counseling, his feelings may change towards returning to the M. He may decide you are the best thing ever, or he may decide that now that he is "well", this is not what he signed up for. I don't say this to rain on your parade, but to keep you vigilant and moving forward with your own life should this not have the outcome you wish and hope for.
Right now he still seems to be using a teenage brain. Not knowing what his finances are and such. I am happy that he can still say I love you. That's a good sign. Few on here get to hear that after they depart.
Oh thanks for linking up my new thread LIAOK and keeping me grounded with the possibility of H not returning. It's always half on my mind that it might turn out that way, but if that happens it truly is his loss, he has a beautiful house, a beautiful wife, beautiful kids, just can't fathom him willingly giving all that up but YUP moving forward, he will come find us or he won't.
Hi dearest Stayed and Never, thanks for coming along.
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There is only one bit of advise I would like to pass on to you. Perhaps this is completely out of line because I have no idea how you did or didn't handle the other two BD's. There is a question we ask each other, frequently. It goes like this.
Q: What is the definition of insanity or stupidity?
A: Doing the same thing over and over and over again... and... expecting a different result!
I don't know what your last two separations were like and how you handled them. I am only asking this question in the sense of " a word to the wise" sort of thing. All I hope, is that you are not doing the same thing you did the last two times. There is no need to be nasty and unkind, at the same time, there is a very fine line between being compassionate/empathetic and being "too understanding".
Anyway, how's that netball coming along?
Hugs Stayed
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Hi Stayed,
Thanks for posting as always you are right to issue a warning....it seems as though I am caught in a BD cycle with my H doesn't it?
However the first two times I did not recognise that H had depression....although I should have, his whole family on his mothers side have mental health issues. Neither did H recognise or admit to depression. Not sure how I could have missed what seems so obvious now.
So in not recognizing the depression, the underlying reasons/issues were not addressed. The depression eased, he came out of it and life resumed twice.
I am hopeful this round because H has admitted he has depression and is trying to manage/understand it through counselling and medication. So now we are aware we are caught in a cycle whereas previously we were unaware.
I am encouraging H to understand what external factors may trigger his depression and also what internal issues he may need to address.
He won't be allowed home until I am assured that he is capable of managing this illness without blowing the whole family up again.
I also need time apart for me and to give our relationship the best possible chance in the future, I think I need to give myself the best chance to grow and develop. I am in no rush for H to come home in fact the opposite is true, I want to go slowly, very slowly.
I may seem to be very accommodating with my H...that's true, I think I can afford to be. H has never monstered at me, blamed me or rewritten our marital history. H has been the most loving, supportive husband and father for 20 years, bar his two short depressive episodes and so for me he has practically unlimited funds to withdraw from the lovebank he has faithfully been putting deposits into over the years. I am being patient, kind and loving with him.....all true. I have indicated that yes he can come home. Does his return come with no strings attached? Definitely not. There will be strings.....a lot of strings...a whole orchestra of them probably.....and me I will be the steel string guitar then.
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Dear Mae:
What you say makes perfect sense to me. You seem to have a good understanding of what you are dealing with, or think you are dealing with. You understand what was not addressed the first couple of times this happened. I also, appreciate and trust you when you say you are not going to allow him to return, if you feel he is ONLY going to blow up the entire family again.
I love the fact that you are determined to focus on yourself. To grow up, per say, it never fails to amaze me how we LBS's set aside who we were for our spouses. We need to understand why and how we think it is best for ANYBODY, most of all ourselves, to place ourselves DEAD LAST in the pecking order of the home. We are not slaves, yet we seem to willingly throw ourselves into that role, and try to be all things to all people. Need to figure that out!
I also understand that this is a forum about MLC, so we tend to DISCUSS at nausea our depressed/wayward/MLC spouses. To be expected. My only wish is that with every single posting, we would talk about how WE are doing, what WE are doing, as much time as we give to our spouses. Generally you are pretty good about telling us a little something about yourself but for the most part like all of us did, you tend to dwell mostly on your spouse.
Thank you so much for not being offended or angry at my comments. I hate always being the "nay sayer" but I honestly feel that somebody needs to say what they are thinking, plus I have actually seen and done the old, "STUPIDITY/INSANITY thing, three or 4 times actually, until I SAW THE LIGHT!
Hugs Stayed
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Hi Mae. It does seem that you are handling things differently this time around. I hope with the changes you are making, it will cause your H to finally make it thru the Tunnel and stay out for good.
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Stayed....you have been such a great support to me....I could never think ill of you or your advice. I appreciate every post you have written to me and I need to hear the warnings, the objective perspectives, the reality checks and I also need to feel the 2x4s when they are warranted too alongside the supportive, huggy, 'feel good' posts that are also provided.
I trust you, it's that simple as I trust my mentor LIAOK.
Learning......I have only two days left of being mentored by you, please check up on me now and again.
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Oh thank goodness Mae, I hate wielding 2x4's... I just hate it. It doesn't feel right to warn, somehow it feels "negative" and discouraging! That is not my intent, at all and you seem to realize that.
You are doing great. The most important person is you Mae. If you are happy, healthy and content, your entire family will be as well. I was surprised when I realized what a little martyr I had become. I didn't realize how unhappy I was in that role, until I shucked it. I still struggle with wanting to be all things to all people, although I am so much better then I was. The more I let go, the more content I find myself becoming.
Becoming hard to find a pulse... hehehe... hugs Stayed
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I was surprised when I realized what a little martyr I had become. I didn't realize how unhappy I was in that role, until I shucked it. I still struggle with wanting to be all things to all people, although I am so much better then I was. The more I let go, the more content I find myself becoming.
Becoming hard to find a pulse... hehehe... hugs Stayed
I am the same, trying to be superwoman all the time.....I feel like I am slowly shedding my old skin to reveal something new underneath. You nailed it though, the more I let go, the more content I am too....letting go of trying to control everything and everyone especially my H and his crisis.
I am beginning to understand the message of 'giving my H up to God'......I'm not a Christian so that image doesn't quite gel with me......it may be more 'giving my H up to the wisdom of the universe'....releasing him, stepping back and letting him continue on his way....but I am doing that in all areas of my life I think. I am being 'selfish' with my time, heck I am being 'selfish' period......putting myself first....I used to feel guilty doing this ....now I just feel good (the validation you get on the board for putting yourself first is great).
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(the validation you get on the board for putting yourself first is great).
That is music to my ears. When we understand what we need/want to feel whole, then it can't go anywhere but up. You are sounding great Mae...
Hugs Stayed
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It's such a wonderful day here, the sun is shining so bright and no work today as it's a public holiday. I have kind of a busy day, I know I need to get out into the gardens and then to the gym.
I'm feeling pretty content with my life right now and later on D14 and I are going to treat ourselves to a spa pedicure (they are devine).
GAL is going pretty well, I have a lunch date with my ex tomorrow (we are good friends) and have the next two weekends planned out looking after GS2.....somewhere in there my H will probably want to see me/us. D14 and I are away on an 8 night cruise with GD7 and GD5 in a couple of weeks....we are really looking forward to it although D14 is anxious about missing her rep netball trainings (she will miss three in total which is alot considering the rep season is quite short).
My H is also off for a short maybe five day visit overseas towards the end of May to see one of his very best friends that moved away a couple of years ago with his BF (the one whose couch he is sleeping on).....It will be a big 'boys' trip.....I'm sure they will have a great time.....I'm a little anxious about it (I will need to analyse why and I have some ideas).
I have been up since 5.30am in bed on HS site, I read through Noex's entire threads...all of them....that was so interesting, had a big cup of coffee in bed, then a big cup of tea with toast....all the while reading HS...I love this life. But sadly I need to get up out of bed....it's nearly 9am and I have to get this show on the road.
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Mae, don't worry that I will abandon you just because of the mentoring time frame. I will, of course, continue to follow you.
Your cruise sounds awesome. I hope you have calm seas and good weather. I love cruising and haven't been on one for 4 years.
You are sounding really well. I know it's still sad in the background, but overall, you sound so good. I hope your H wakes up before you decide that it's not worth letting him back in your life and possibly have to go thru this a fourth time.
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Mae,
I feel so honored that you took the time to read through my threads! Thank you ;D
It sounds like you have a lot of good things going on. I love the idea of a cruise, I wish Mom felt good enough to go on one with me, I think it would do us both a lot of good! Maybe next year... 8)
Aren't pedicures the best? I love having them. I used to not really enjoy them much, but I've been working hard on really living in the moment. And I've gotten to where I just really get into the massage chair. I wish I had one at home! I probably would never leave the house though haha!
You do sound really good, Mae. Keep on with your GAL, you've got it going on!
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I AM really good......yesterday at the gym I just felt so HAPPY....it was so weird.
Ok D and I didn't end up getting pedis done because she found a great pair of white shoes....so it was either the pedis or the shoes, one or the other but not both (I whispered to her to take the shoes....they will last longer). I was kind of embarrassed to get a pedi done anyways cause I have hobbit feet (ya know where the hair is going off.... ;D...really need to do something bout that before the cruise).
So things are going GREAT.....I am just in a space of real contentment with my life.
I have a H who seems to be:
1. Trying to deal with his depression through counselling and medication
2. Is away from me so I can carve out some independence for myself and not have to deal with his inability to cope with our R and his withdrawal
3. Says he is missing me and loves me very much and is making his way home
4. Has no Ow
Apart from the cuddling in bed....really what am I missing out on exactly?
I have a family life that is very very satisfying, support all over the place and a closeness with my D that makes me so happy. Really it's the two of us against the world.
So I have the present which is going wonderfully and the future promise of reconciliation with H (I am full of anticipation about that), NOW is a great place to be......even if the future doesn't play out the way I hope it will.....I will cope cause it's the future. But its all about the NOW for me.
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Ok the cuddling in bed thingy...that is a big thing after all...
I really miss H tonight......I have some guy hitting me up at the gym, my ex trying to organise like a date with me and all I really want is to hold my H in bed, to curve my body against his in what WAS our nightly ritual.
He called me today...we chatted about the rental properties he's been looking at, work, what he did yesterday, our D.....and I was talking to him...the real him...he sounded so NORMAL.
I hope he get's this one property, it looks so nice and I could imagine me going down to visit and stay for a night, or even a weekend....that may not happen for a while though, I am so busy for the next month.
Bedtime for me, tomorrow is another day.
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Mae,
Sounds like your H is a wallower, like mine. Mine doesn't monster, he is so depressed and cries, every day. But it is very hard on me when he shows a "normal" side of himself. It reminds me of old H. It really is easier when he is not here, or when he is miserable, as bad as that sounds.
I hope you have a good day, today!
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Mae, you are sounding so good, it's exciting to keep up with your thread!!!
An eight-day cruise?? Wow. Now that is something to look forward to. I wish we could all join you! 8) 8)
You are doing this right this time, getting your own life going on while waiting for your husband to figure his issues out.
Things are looking very positive for you!
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I don't think my xH ever seemed normal. My lawyer said to me once, "Has he always been this odd?" I said, "I don't know, I guess so."
Just start thinking about the cruise and how much fun you will have. Your H will wonder if you are meeting men. Let him wonder.
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So it took me a while to find you again, Mae! And just so you know, I have a huge stash of 2 x 4 's readily at my disposal, should Stayed ever run out! ;D
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The cuddling...that's what I miss the most...my bed is too big for just me.
Oh, I love spa pedicures!! It's my treat a few times a year....I love pretty toes! And I did laugh at the hair thing.....I just shave it when I do my legs ;D
Jealous of your cruise, you gals are going to have such a great time!!
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So it took me a while to find you again, Mae! And just so you know, I have a huge stash of 2 x 4 's readily at my disposal, should Stayed ever run out! ;D
Ha ha....I will make sure I never give you or anyone else an excuse to use them on me.
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I don't think my xH ever seemed normal. My lawyer said to me once, "Has he always been this odd?" I said, "I don't know, I guess so."
Just start thinking about the cruise and how much fun you will have. Your H will wonder if you are meeting men. Let him wonder.
Did MLC exacerbate your H's 'oddness' LIAOK?
I'd like to think my H will wonder about me meeting men.....but I don't think he will....he knows me too well....knows I won't even be thinking like that. But at least D14 and I can giggle over the good looking boys....now D14 is who I will have to watch closely, she has the body and mind of a 19 year old. Our last shopping trip she was getting wolf whistles while we were just walking around the mall....(I don't flatter myself they were for me :P)
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The cuddling...that's what I miss the most...my bed is too big for just me.
Oh, I love spa pedicures!! It's my treat a few times a year....I love pretty toes! And I did laugh at the hair thing.....I just shave it when I do my legs ;D
Jealous of your cruise, you gals are going to have such a great time!!
I miss the cuddling SO MUCH.....damn you H!
Why have I never thought to shave the toes along with the legs ??? Just about everything else gets the blade (even though with no H around I needn't bother ;))
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Sounds like your H is seeing the light Mae, I hope he continues on the upward rather than the other direction ::)
You've been at this a long time and have done very well despite not really knowing what was going on.
I urge you to go back and read Stayed's longer posts from the first pages, she made so much sense and it would provide you with some direction. I admit I used to read Stayed's posts and sometimes say out loud REALLY??? And now I just say YES, YES YES!!
She's been where you are and since I have been studying MLC for four years now and have a really good understanding, I know the importance of leaving them to their own crisis. It is difficult when they contact, I think the ones who don't are better to be honest, stops all expectations and heart-string-tugging.
I hope he keeps up the counselling sessions and the medications help. I am always a little worried about the medications as sometimes they have a negative affect as the prescriber's don't see MLC as a 'thing' and are prescribing from a different perspective and often get the doses wrong as the MLCers description of what's going on differs from the real problem.
I do worry you remain in contact for the wrong reasons. It's a pity that hindsight is just that ::) I look back over my old posts and see a very desperate woman but we all have to do what we think is right.
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I do worry you remain in contact for the wrong reasons. It's a pity that hindsight is just that ::) I look back over my old posts and see a very desperate woman but we all have to do what we think is right.
I do as well Savoir Faire, as so many of us think we KNOW our spouse. The sad part, WE DO NOT KNOW this person. This person who stands before us now... this is NOBODY we know, or ever knew. Sure we saw some of these less then desirable traits throughout our marriage... BUT NOT ALL AT ONCE... we saw little bits of these things... heck, lets be honest, we all HAVE these traits but for the most part, they are kept under control.
I think the greatest worry is when we THINK we have it all figured out. Expectations are our greatest KILLERS!
Hugs Stayed
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Hi SF,
Thanks for visiting my thread.....I actually will go back and read Stayed early posts to me......I know those first few days/weeks were terrible...I was a mess. I'm glad I am in a much better place now......maybe you bounce back quicker after the third time.
Yes I tend to agree that no contact with the MCLer is a quicker path to healing. I vacillated over taking that route this time......it was a hard decision to reach but contact with H seems to be working for me this round, as no contact worked better the last round. I think it's because I know what I'm dealing with...the last two times I was clueless, we both know that my H has depression and now my H has actively admitted to and is trying to manage it and get better. I do not believe he is going through MLC....although that may also be in the future.
So far we are on the same page with the current plan and the future plan. Current plan H is taking care of himself, working through the depression and all the issues that surround it. Future plan is for him to move back but the whys and wherefores and whens have NOT been discussed or firmed up yet. I have a timeline in mind but haven't discussed this with H, I am content to let things play out, no pressure from me, no R talks. He initiates contact and I don't try to set up times to see him anymore.
I am lucky that there is no OW to muddy the waters further, if there was....things would be different.
I am not standing still, I am taking care of my family, the house, going to work etc and trying to work on myself. I am taking all the opportunities I can to treat myself and enjoy my life right now.
I do get impatient. I do miss him a lot. I do think 'when will it be 'our' time just for us?' I need to wait, to be patient, to let time do it's magic healing work on both of us.
Can you be a bit clearer SF about your last point? I do worry you remain in contact for the wrong reasons. What would you suggest might be the 'wrong' reasons' for staying in contact with H?
HA....Stayed we posted at the same time....again any clarity about this last point would be appreciated!
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EXPECTATIONS ~ I guess in remaining in contact with my H I do have them.
1. I have the expectation that my H will come home in time.
2. I have the expectation that my H will not begin a EA/PA with another person.
3. I have the expectation that my H is trying to sort out his issues.
4. I have the expectation that we will reconcile in the near future.
In having these expectations I am also aware that some or none of them may come to pass. My H may sort out all his issues and in the end decide he prefers to live alone or wants to explore other relationships.
I THINK I am ok with having expectations but also trying to be aware that things may change, that these are not set in stone.
This time away from H has been very good. I can manage very well without him, so I am secure enough in myself that if my future doesn't include him....I will manage, I have enough faith in myself and seen the evidence all over the board that attests to LBS surviving and thriving without their spouses.
It's finding that right balance between hope, expectations and preparing your 'plan b'.
Are 'hope' and 'expectations' interchangeable in this sense? It seems as though I could replace 'expectation' with 'hope' and still retain the meaning. I hope these things will happen but I also expect that they will as well.
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Hi Mae,
Sorry I wasn't clear about the reasons. At the beginning of crisis we all do things we wish we hadn't and I look back and realize I would have totally denied I was doing things I was actually doing.
After much soul searching I have found there are only a couple of reasons for any actions, or that our reactions come from two sources - 'Love' and 'Fear' I worry that many LBS allow their husbands to cake-eat out of fear rather than love. I denied being fearful and thought i was acting out of love. Maybe there was a little of both but most was fear. If I was going to be completely honest, I was fearful H wouldn't come back if I didn't do X or Y for Z and thought I actually had a part in that. I had NO part in anything that involved his actions, none at all. The wrong reason is actions due to fear and you are the only one who can answer if that's your catalyst.
You say you don't think your H is in MLC? Could yo elaborate a little on this, it may help to sort your own head out a bit. In the end it doesn't matter if they are in MLC or not but I would have a hard time forgiving someone who did all the stuff my H has done and not in MLC. I actually think it would be near impossible to forgive his actions if they were not a reaction to his FOO issues and brain chemistry. I would not forgive a cheat under any other circumstances and he would have to show true remorce for all he's done.
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Thanks for the explanation SF...that is so helpful.
Are my actions in particular in maintaining contact with H and generally being patient, loving and supportive from a base of 'fear' or 'love'. That is a good question.
I think if my actions were from a base of 'fear' I would be doing things differently. Perhaps I would be trying to make contact with H (I don't, I only respond to his contact). Perhaps I would be trying to get him to discuss when he is coming home or if he still loves me (I don't even go there). Perhaps I would be trying to discuss his progress with his family or friends or trying to stalk him on facebook or by any other means trying to keep tabs on him (I have relinquished the option of spying on him or trying to gauge where he is at other than what I can discern when I have contact with him). In essence I think if my actions were from a base of fear I would be doing all I could to try and control the outcome....instead I have ceded control to him, this is his journey and only he is in control of it, definitely not me, I can support or suggest (which I do) but I definitely do not make demands of him or expect him to do any of the things I would like to see him doing.....he is willingly doing them himself.
Do I feel like he is cake-eating? Not really.....he came home once and then promptly bolted again. Is he popping in and out of home like he still lived here? Absolutely not in fact I think he feels displaced and shut out from home. Is he having his own 'woe is me pity party'......not really.....he admitted he was struggling in the beginning but he doesn't complain at all about his situation (and neither should he).....oh he did mention about his budget being tight....but he got no sympathy from me on that front.
I do NOT think he is having a MLC.....I think he is having another depressive episode. His first one was seven years into our marriage.....so he would have been around 29....with all the symptoms of depression (now that I can look back on it)....far too young for MLC....maybe quarter life crisis if there's such a thing. Then again at 36....still too young for MLC but this time did a runner....now fast forward to now, he is 40 (again probably too young for MLC, with none of the classic symptoms of MLC EXCEPT for depression....no replay behaviour, no OW, no monstering, no rewriting marital history, no blame, no anger.....just wallowing depression and even the wallowing has improved. All his symptoms fit the description of 'depression' rather than MLC. He has improved a lot over the past few weeks being away, counselling and now taking meds for depression. It took around six to eight weeks for him to come out of depression the 2nd time. He is hitting the eight week mark now and I see signs of improvement although a ways to go yet as this episode has been the most severe and therefore will take longer to recover from. Also take into account the work once he is better to understand the triggers leading to his depression and all the rest of it...that could take quite a bit of time and he needs to work through it all before coming home I feel.
Depression is a terrible terrible illness, it devastates families and relationships. My H's relationship with his darling daughter is virtually non-existent now because of depressive episode #2 and #3....she couldn't forgive him for leaving us and for the hurt it inflicted on me. So definitely YES I think his brain chemistry is way out of whack.........what person in their right mind, who was loving the day before, the SAME day even can go from looking at you and saying 'we are in a funk' to suddenly dropping everything and leaving. I think counselling and meds are helping to get him back on track......FOO issues....oh yes he has plenty of those, abusive drug addled father who beat his mother in front of him, and beat him and his brother as well. Plus a genetic predisposition for mental illness (crazy runs in his family).....how I could miss the obvious I don't know...I feel so stupid now. FOO issues NEVER addressed.....he refused to talk about his childhood....just blocked it out.
SO how could you not be there for them?
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In having these expectations I am also aware that some or none of them may come to pass. My H may sort out all his issues and in the end decide he prefers to live alone or wants to explore other relationships.
I THINK I am ok with having expectations but also trying to be aware that things may change, that these are not set in stone.
I can "get" your definition of expectations. That makes sense to me. I was a person that NEEDED my hope, or as you call it, EXPECTATIONS! I was prepared to realize that my "hopes" might never be fulfilled, but at the time, I NEEDED them to get out of bed each day. I also could sense that my NEED to grasp onto hope, was very slowly diminishing. I was learning to accept while still hoping for the best. Many people talk about not being able to do that, that they HAD to let go of hope, as HOPE was holding them back from moving forward. I didn't have that feeling.
Hope is an essential part of my makeup. When my father was dying of cancer, I HOPED the diagnosis was wrong, or that he would defy the odd's and somehow survive it. It didn't happen. In fact, he was gone in record speed. That being said, I accepted it because I could SEE how uncomfortable he was, how much pain he was in, and I simply did not want him to suffer a day longer then he did.
Personally, I think MLC is "depression"! Your h to me, oozes MLC. My greatest concern is the way he returns now and then, planning on staying over and then bolts. I worry that with so many of these episodes that he will eventually determine that the CAUSE has to be you. As when he returns, his anxiety starts acting up on him. Depressed people I suspect, look for "outside" reasons for their depression, heck, don't we all! For the record that particular behavior is SO MLC! Your h has not decided yet about who or what is the cause of his depression. That will depend on what his "counselor" is actually saying, or at least how your h is TRANSLATING what his counselor is saying to him. Then again, as SF says, it really doesn't matter what you call this... MLC/depression, it is effecting you and your family... neither is a good thing!
Not all MLCers or depressed people have other people, but sadly, the vast majority do. I cannot tell you how many people have come to this forum absolutely 100% convinced that their partner DID NOT HAVE A LOVER... only to discover, not only did he/she have a lover, they had had that lover for many, many years. I am hopeful that your "expectations/hope" are able to accept that possibility, as ruling it out, could leave you with a horrible shock to deal with in the future, if you were to discover there is another person. Sadly, many of us know what that feels like and we truly are hoping and praying that you will not have to experience this disillusionment!
As mentor's, I often find it difficult as to how much I should or shouldn't say. I want people to be prepared, but at the same time have generally found that nobody can really prepared for something awful. Childbirth comes to mind, with that thought... nobody could have possibly prepared me enough for that... lol . The good thing about that example.. WE ALL SURVIVED didn't we?
My grandma always told me, "what did not kill me, would make me stronger"... I have found that to be the most truthful thing anybody ever told me.
Hugs Stayed
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Thank you Stayed.
I feel I am similar that I need to have hope but don't feel as though hope is impeding my progress forward. Heck I'm not even sure I need hope....but it sure is nice to have.
My greatest concern is the way he returns now and then, planning on staying over and then bolts. I worry that with so many of these episodes that he will eventually determine that the CAUSE has to be you. As when he returns, his anxiety starts acting up on him. Depressed people I suspect, look for "outside" reasons for their depression, heck, don't we all! For the record that particular behavior is SO MLC!
Stayed....THIS is also my biggest concern too that he will come to the conclusion that 'we' or 'I' am the root cause of his depression. I will need to have a discussion about this at some stage. What gives me hope is his willingness to come down and see us again even if he does get anxious after.....although it has been a week since our last face-to-face contact. He hasn't made any plans to see us this weekend so maybe next weekend. His desire to make his way home is also evident.
I'm dying to know what is being discussed at his counselling sessions.
Yes....the warnings about OW.....the first depressive episode he 'thought' he was in love with one of his workmates, because that was a 'dead end' he moved on pretty quickly from that idea. I remember him not being able to articulate the 'cause' of his unhappiness. There was obviously something wrong and the first thing he did was blame the marriage 'we have grown apart, nothing in common' etc.......we hadn't, perhaps we had got into a rut, but there was plenty of loving, cuddles and closeness, I love yous, kisses morning and night right up until BD.....I was floored....had no idea. So right after BD he starts looking around for the 'external' cause of his unhappiness. He went to work, friend was there....he feels happy to see her....wallah he equates that feeling of being happy to see her with 'being in love' with her therefore that is why he is unhappy. Came home and told me he had figured out what was wrong, 'he was in love with someone else'....it's comical when I look back on it. For the record I do think he was infatuated with her....they were spending a lot of time together (as part of a closeknit group of friends), he was unhappy, had withdrawn from me physically and emotionally and was having an EA with his group of friends, all his energy emotional and physical was being poured into the friendships. When the depression started to ease, his ties to the group started to become less and less until he stopped going out altogether with them and the group broke up. Now only one of the group (I call him BF2) is still a good friend, all the rest.....no contact anymore. I always say he had an EA with his clique.....but really does that count? I'm feeling sad now after recounting my memory of that time.
None in episode #2.
None in episode #3....and I keep grilling him about it.
My H seems to be similar to Noex's, although Mr Noex is the poster child for wallowing depression...leaves my H in the dust. There is also no OW in that situation, although there was an early attempt by Mr Noex which again was a dead end. Neither of our WDs (Wallowing Depressives) seem to be attracting anyone.....thankfully.
I feel like Bipolared sometimes and her thread name 'Stop trying to make OW happen. She's not going to happen'....so NO OW....not even a smidgen. And I would be HUGELY shocked if there was one in the background. Now what I wouldn't be shocked about is if one pops up in the future. I'll deal with that if it happens and good to be aware of the possibility. But I can see that the MCLer and OP almost go hand in hand but not in my case.
I don't mind you saying EVERYTHING Stayed.....the warnings, the cautions, the 2x4s....it's all helpful.
I expect to get a call from H today, he has an appointment to see a rental property which is very nice and which I'm lining up to be our little 'love pad'......so I have a huge expectation there.....hope it doesn't blow up all in my face ;)....seriously though I will only go there if I get invited....no pressure, no hints.
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Mae, what you describe in your BD2 is exactly how my xh "fell in love" with his boss. We went from married 16 years in January 2016 to divorced July 2016 and yesterday I heard the love birds are now engaged. lol. The funny thing is that her own H was working with them this whole time....and if they do marry, it will be #3 for her. And like I mentioned, she met #2 at this same workplace. She really loves her coworkers. .married or not. ::)
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YEP...a workplace romance is the only way I could see H hooking up with someone else.
Your ex's boss sounds creepy like a workplace 'black widow' except she spits the partners back out when she's done with them.
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Hi Mae,
Just to give you a little more insight, my H DID have an OW. That's what forced the issue that led to BD. It started as an EA, and then progressed to PA. Along the way was BD (I'm not happy in M, we've grown apart, etc...the usual).
I do think she's gone, but frankly, I haven't asked. He is living in our old house, which we intended to sell. I have not been in it for at least 6 months now, and have no desire or intention to go there. If he has 65794726954 vestal virgins prancing around naked in there, I don't know, and I really don't care at this point. If and when we get to a point of attempting R, then I will decide how I want to deal with anything going on. But for now, we are separated, and whatever he is going to do, I can't control, so why stress on it?
You really do sound like you're doing well Mae. Just prepare yourself, your H may be doing a lot of things that are out of character for him. I would have bet my life that my H would have never cheated. Good thing I didn't.
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You really do sound like you're doing well Mae. Just prepare yourself, your H may be doing a lot of things that are out of character for him. I would have bet my life that my H would have never cheated. Good thing I didn't.
How many naked virgins? hehehe. You make me smile No Expectations, you really do. Also, you could have knocked me over with a feather when I discovered my h was CHEATING... omg, I never saw that coming.
Sounding good my dears... very good! I like the way all of you are FOCUSING on yourselves. It is so good to see people that understand, this thing is all on our shoulders. Whatever the outcome, if we fix/work on/help ourselves... we will be JUST FINE, whatever the outcome. We can't fix anybody else, but we can bloody well rebuild ourselves into people we will be forever proud of.
Hugs Stayed
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Hi Mae,
Just to give you a little more insight, my H DID have an OW. That's what forced the issue that led to BD. It started as an EA, and then progressed to PA. Along the way was BD (I'm not happy in M, we've grown apart, etc...the usual).
I do think she's gone, but frankly, I haven't asked. He is living in our old house, which we intended to sell. I have not been in it for at least 6 months now, and have no desire or intention to go there. If he has 65794726954 vestal virgins prancing around naked in there, I don't know, and I really don't care at this point. If and when we get to a point of attempting R, then I will decide how I want to deal with anything going on. But for now, we are separated, and whatever he is going to do, I can't control, so why stress on it?
You really do sound like you're doing well Mae. Just prepare yourself, your H may be doing a lot of things that are out of character for him. I would have bet my life that my H would have never cheated. Good thing I didn't.
Oh Noex, how did I miss that when I spent 3 hours reading ALL of your threads huh? I thought he got rejected by a young something at work?
I DO like how you are living your life Noex....your H is NOT the focus....although I think he tries to be.
Because my H had an EA with his group of friends I can see how OW would come about.....but NOTHING since, even when he went off for six weeks after BD#2....all he did was stay at his rental place, hang out with BF#2 and go to the gym.I think he is naturally very cautious how he interacts with women and I have never seen any back and forth texts between him and any other women apart from them being work related and I have checked over the years randomly.
Actually I don't think my H is doing anything out of character for him. He told me when he had first left us after BD to stay with BF he had one drunken weekend where he woke up at a workmates house randomly and had no idea how he got there....I think that scared him and soon after he cut back on drinking and now doesn't drink much at all cause I said it 'adds' to the depression and now he's on meds he's even more cautious about drinking. I honestly DO think that H is trying to work through his issues to get back home to me and D & S.
He got the 'love pad' ;D and he's moving in next Wednesday....the good thing is that it is no specified term, they will give him six weeks notice and he can give three.
I got a bit weepy at work today and at the gym....came home and was immediately settled again. Not much on this weekend, it's forecast to be rainy so I won't be in my garden or mowing the lawn. Have a busy day tomorrow driving D14 all over the place and have GS2 for an overnighter.
Stayed ~ How long from start to finish was your H's affair? I thought it was horrifying when he said he was coming home and finishing with OW then took off with her again. He must have looked back on that time and been totally ashamed and embarrassed over it.
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That's a LOT of virgins in one place Noex!! I would pay to see that many in one house ;D ;D He would need a lot of stamina for so many women :-X
Same here about the cheating. When, as a couple we used to hear about someone cheating I used to thank God my H was such a good man with such high integrity, love me to pieces, and I KNEW I would never be in a place where I had to worry. Looks like I was a little bit wrong about that one ::)
Good thing I didn't have a very sharp knife when I found out about OW1, things may have been very different and I would have been a celebrity for all the wrong reasons. I absolutely know how Lorena Bobbitt felt and why she did what she did to her H >:(
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I don't think there is any LBS on this board whose spouse was NOT involved with OP? (Bar me as far as I know)
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Mae,
The only one I know of is Thunder.
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Ah Thunder, hopefully she will confirm.
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There are quite a few MLCers who never had an OW. Most are wallowers who stay at home but some never got involved with another person. There was one guy who took up mountain climbing - they all need an addiction and not all are to OW's. Some it's exercise, work, alcohol but they all have something to take away the pain - it's called REPLAY after all and they replay their young lives to get a better outcome ::) They don't succeed.
What is the point of a midlife crisis if you aren't going to cheat ;D ;D I think they all want someone but some don't succeed in getting a partner or they are too depressed or run out of steam to do so. It's better if they do have someone, it makes the crisis but out faster and they have more to be sorry for in the end.
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It's better if they do have someone, it makes the crisis but out faster and they have more to be sorry for in the end.
I would really struggle with this.....I would never WANT my H to get OW so he could come out of his depression quicker. Doesn't OP actually distract the MLCer from whatever issues he needs to address OR is OP part of the replay behaviour associated with MLC?
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Ugh... nothing ever completely vanishes on the internet, so WHERE do these posts we type up disappear to when they suddenly vapourize into thin air. Uggh!!!! >:(
I would really struggle with this.....I would never WANT my H to get OW so he could come out of his depression quicker. Doesn't OP actually distract the MLCer from whatever issues he needs to address OR is OP part of the replay behaviour associated with MLC?
I'm not sure if anything "helps/makes" them come out of this quicker! There is nothing "normal" about this. Seriously, who walks away from a 20 year relationship... or more. That honestly does not make any sense. When I think of a seriously "depressed" individual walking away from their best and most loyal friend, that perplexes me even more. Wouldn't you think, somebody in that state would SEEK security rather then cutting themselves off from their main security blanket.
Everything about this situation we find ourselves in, is "counter intuitive"! Rational people would never walk away from somebody who has been devoted, loving and caring for many, many years. Yet everyday, we have more men and women flooding this forum because their dedicated, loving spouse has SUDDENLY become a monster. Ok, we all know it wasn't as sudden as we first thought, but dang, without a doubt, all of us were TOTALLY BLINDSIDED. We all knew our spouse was not "feeling too good" but seriously, ENOUGH TO WALK OUT ON US... abandon us? Hell no!
I wish this forum had existed when this first happened to me. It would be great having accurate documentation of events. Instead, I am having to rely on my very "faulty" memory. Thank goodness, time truly does DULL the pain... but wow, sometimes those flash backs can be amazingly real. I'm amazed at how well most LBS's handle this nightmare. Just very strong, devoted men and women who are determined to not let this thing DESTROY them. Whether their spouse returns or not, our LBS's strive and succeed to give themselves back the lives they deserve.
Oh yea, your question Mae...
Stayed ~ How long from start to finish was your H's affair? I thought it was horrifying when he said he was coming home and finishing with OW then took off with her again. He must have looked back on that time and been totally ashamed and embarrassed over it.
He did that 4 times Mae. Yea... 4 times... ugh. His affair started almost immediately following the announcements of our two oldest children's engagements. Right in between the two weddings. Somewhere between September 2003 and Dec. 2003. I never got the exact dates. Really don't want them. For that matter, I don't remember the date, or even the month other then it was the fall of 2005, of BOMB DROP! I could figure it out, but I have never done so. I HONESTLY do not want to remember. It is like a huge black hole in my life and I want it to stay that way. I simply do not want to know. His affair ended for sure July 5, 2006 when I returned to Luxembourg. I actually believe he was still in touch with her, right up until I arrived back. Not sure I would have returned had I known.
Mae, and all else who follow this thread, please just know that depressed people, be they are having an MLC or not....LIE! I'm not sure why, but the need to lie and lie and lie, seems to be very strong in them. It seems to add to their excitement and their distress, all at the same time. I don't think they can believe what a$$holes they have become, yet in some bazaar way, are totally loving being BAD!
Hugs... Stayed
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Four times Stayed? Yep as I said 'horrifying' and yet you persisted and here you are now helping out us newbies.
please just know that depressed people, be they are having an MLC or not....LIE!
I have NEVER had the sense that my H has ever lied to me in a depressive state or otherwise....in fact he has kind of been brutally honest in his depressive state over what he is feeling which has hurt no end to hear. That's the one thing I have always counted on (over 20 years of being married to the guy) that he will be honest with me. If I think I won't like the answer then I don't ask the question. His honesty has been the ONE constant through the depressive cycles and when he is NOT depressed. I only now realize what a GIFT that is......I have so much to ask him if and when he comes through this cycle. Can he lie? Yes...he's admitted to doing it to get out of things, like ringing in sick when he's not, or making up an excuse to not attend an outing BUT never with me as far as I know or can recall.
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Haven't updated my thread in a few days. I have been struggling with contact again with my H....having contact makes me want MORE and when there is little to no contact I tend to spiral down to the point where I had a really bad night on Friday. We had a pleasant conversation on Wednesday or it might have even been Tuesday last week and then a single text on Friday followed by no contact over the weekend and a text contact on Monday. In between I don't know what he is doing or thinking. I let him control the contact but actually this is so not working for me, I either want absolutely no contact or a phone call every day, all or nothing.
Over the weekend once I got past Friday night I actually ended up having a good one. I expected H would make contact via text on Monday and he did. My response was very short. He sent me an email today forwarding me a household statement and put on it 'love you'....I didn't respond. He sent me another text....'hey, how r you?'.....it was a couple of hours later before I saw it and thought I would ask him to ring me so I could sort through this issue of sporadic contact from him. He called me before I could send it. I could tell in his voice that he was 'shaky' and 'emotional'. I told him I needed to discuss contact with him......and I could tell from his response he was preparing himself for 'no contact' from me.....I told him I needed either a phone call every day or if he preferred I could do 'no contact. He said he didn't contact me everyday because he thought I didn't want too much contact but that he would love to talk with me every day.
He was also at 'the love pad' his move-in date is tomorrow. He called me because he's scared and panicky.....and I tried to get to the source of his fear, was it his fear of being 'alone'? He tried to explain....but didn't quite have the words. I think from what I could discern is that the reality of the apartment makes the separation far more immediate in his mind (I guess sleeping on BF's couch for two months was somehow different?) Anyway it sounds as though he was close to a full blown panic attack on the eve of his moving in. He has to sort out a bed and a few other bits and pieces so he won't be moving in until the weekend when he has time. The stark reality of being fully alone and separated from his family hit him square in the heart....never mind that he chose this path.
I told him it's been two months....his response 'wow has it been that long?' to which I responded yes, yes it has. (Barely a drop in the ocean compared to others here I know who have been separated for months and years)....this is the longest he has ever been away.
He talked about getting a camp bed so S18 or D14 could stayover. Er....our son lives in a student residence in the same city as H...he has a bed....why would he want to stayover on a camp bed? D14 would never consider staying over with her dad.......I was loathe to dash his dreams about that one....so I just replied 'hmmmmm'. He suggested I come down and stay when I get back from my cruise.....an invitation I accepted. We didn't talk timelines but I am thinking maybe two-three months and he will look to come home....I'm not sure either of us will be ready and I've set myself a minimum of six months which takes us to September....will we be able to hold out for that long? Possibly if we take our time in reconnecting.
He also wanted to see us this weekend, I suggested he come down to watch D14's first netball game on Saturday, that way he could see both of us.
He is really missing us......that's dreadfully obvious and I am missing him.....I can't speak for D14...I know in my heart she doesn't miss him....she's closed her heart against him and really who could blame her. She was a vulnerable 11 year old when he left the first time and she's never forgiven him.
Although I am missing H....there are aspects to being alone that I really enjoy and I know many on here will get this. More closet and drawer space for one. I like being able to do almost anything I want, when I want without having to take anyone else into consideration. I like how I am much more 'open' and 'receptive' to people in general....before I was very closed off to friendships in general because I just didn't feel I had the time, H was always my priority. When I talk to people I really listen to them, I smile more at them and now I look for opportunities to engage with people around me. I feel as though I am blossoming in many ways. I hardly cook anymore.....sorry D14....(I'm a great mama in all other respects!)
I know in many ways that contact with H is possibly hindering my own healing and discovery of Mae but I feel I'm still making progress in that area. In this crappy situation can I have the best of both worlds?
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Mae, I am following along. I am not feeling well tonight, but I wanted you to know that I am still with you. I like that you are seeing the benefits of being by yourself and you are not giving in to the needs of others. Also sorry to D14. Keep putting yourself first and things will settle down.
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Learning....I hope you get better soon and thanks for dropping in on me.
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We had the first of the daily check-in phone calls today.
My H is struggling with moving into his rental apartment, he says all he wants to do is give his notice and come home. He is missing home and his family very much. He said he is going to give notice in two weeks, which would make it five weeks.....way too soon for me. I said we could talk about it when he gets back from his short trip away at the end of May. He sounds good....he sounds normal. He sounds like his head is better. We'll see though, it was not that long ago when being with us for two hours was too much contact and he started having some sort of anxiety attack. It was not that long ago when he said he couldn't envisage being married for the next 30 years. It was not that long ago when he said he wasn't in love with me....what the heck does that mean anyway. I think I need to start a discussion thread asking this very question. It wasn't that long ago when he told me he just wanted to be alone.....you guys know the script.
I'm not going to be caught out again though. I want to take this slowly plus I still need to do a whole lot of work on me and now I feel the pressure of time again.
I have done this whole routine three times now.......and I have learnt a few things over that time.
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Mae, don't relent. If you are uncomfortable having him return, don't do it. There are consequences to actions. He is learning things the hard way. How many times can you do this to someone and EXPECT that they will take you right back at your request?
I think all of your misgivings are extremely valid. You need more than his word on this. He doesn't seem to know his own mind. What an understatement by me about an MLCer. :P
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I hear you LIAOK!
Do I really want to be going through all this again in another years time?
So peeps I really need help here. If we can't rely on their words......(and I know I can't....it's not lying per say for me, it's just as you said Learning, they don't know their own minds or their minds are changing from day to day, week to week) what ACTIONS should I be looking for that demonstrate he may be ready to come home?
Two actions he is doing are:
1. Counselling
2. Meds
Although these two do not demonstrate he may be ready to reconcile, they are an indication he is seeking to address his depression.
Perhaps I am looking at this all wrong as well......perhaps I should be looking at it from the point of view of when I feel ready to have him home? I don't think I've grasped who Mae is yet.....she is darn elusive. Now I feel as though I'm the one in the oven simmering away and not done yet. I owe it to myself and to my future relationship with H to keep working on me and this is much better done when H is not around.
Why is it that I feel as though this 'gift' of time has suddenly been repealed and now I feel pressure? I don't think I have used the time I had unwisely.....just that I now seem to be on a 'time limit'.
Learning I think you are right, he needs to feel more consequences. He hasn't even moved into the rental and he is asking to come back.
Ok I have said to myself six months....two months of that has gone. So I have four months left. We are going to have a fuller discussion when I get back from my short holiday. Holiday is good......it will give me some time and space to think about what actions I need for him to show me he is ready to come home. Unfortunately I won't have the support of the board while I am away.
My cruise holiday is nearly here. I have a ton of things to do before that and packing is the last thing. I need to get the house all sorted and tidied and the outside as well. It's Thursday today which means I need to have a huge cleaning spree over the next few days.
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Mae, no need to feel pressure. If you are feeling pressured, then maybe 6 months is too soon for a definite return. Why not decide that at 6 months you will revisit the issues and then decide if you need more time. You are in the driver's seat now. It is YOU who holds the power whether or not he returns.
As far as signs that he is ready to return, you will have to do that all on your own. You know your H, and you know your limits and wants. Trust your gut. Put your Ruby slippers on and know that you have had the power all along.
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Mae, no need to feel pressure. If you are feeling pressured, then maybe 6 months is too soon for a definite return. Why not decide that at 6 months you will revisit the issues and then decide if you need more time. You are in the driver's seat now. It is YOU who holds the power whether or not he returns.
As far as signs that he is ready to return, you will have to do that all on your own. You know your H, and you know your limits and wants. Trust your gut. Put your Ruby slippers on and know that you have had the power all along.
I think I am putting pressure on ME....mirror work is hard and for me some of the best mirror work is done when I'm not even looking or trying to do it....it just comes as I go about living my life independently, so when I start putting the time frame around it I get anxious that it's not going to happen.
If I am honest with myself I could not hold out for six months and then revisit the issue. I'll go off and enjoy my holiday and think about putting together a plan of the changes I want to see in H and how I envisage our future relationship before I allow H to return home.....it's funny how NOW I have the power. At BD I pretzeled myself so much I could have applied for contortionist of the year so that my H wouldn't leave. He did anyway....couldn't get out of there fast enough.....and now he wants a fast-track home again.....I don't think so. I remember his business like very short emails to me after BD.....brisk, no emotion, telling me he knew his emails were like that but that he didn't have anything else to say....now he wants me to talk to him for ages over the phone. Just his anxiety over moving into the apartment shows me clearly he is not ready to come home, if he can spend two months sharing his life with some other family while we are abandoned he can damn well spend at least two months on his own stewing in his own juice.
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If I am honest with myself I could not hold out for six months and then revisit the issue.
There, see? You already know partly how to deal with this.
Just his anxiety over moving into the apartment shows me clearly he is not ready to come home, if he can spend two months sharing his life with some other family while we are abandoned he can damn well spend at least two months on his own stewing in his own juice.
Again, you know your H. You understand that he is not ready to return. And letting him feel the consequences of his actions is a very good thing. If we keep putting out that pillow for them to land safely on, they learn nothing.
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Mae,
Just take it one day at a time. Don't put pressure on yourself, don't let H put pressure on you. I have done the same thing, it actually scares me to think my H is drawing closer, and that he may want to come home. He hasn't said he wants to, but he has said he knows he'll be back "one of these days". hmmmmm I don't know, I have to know I am strong enough to want to deal with that. So for now, I invite him for dinner now and then, sometimes he comes and other times not. And then he goes home. I don't initiate any R talks, and so we only talk about things when he wants to, which is rare. I'm okay with that for now, I don't feel the need to rush things.
I agree with Learning, only you can decide what you want to see to decide if H should come home. He had the power when it came to leaving, now the power is yours.
I hope you get everything done so you can relax and enjoy your cruise!
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Hi Mae, just getting caught up and tagging along.
A couple of things. I know it does no good to snoop, but it would be a possible red flag to me that H changed his email password. What is so private that you shouldn't be able to see it? That action does not speak as an H who is totally on the up and up, if you know what I mean.
To this day, my MLCer denies that there was ever an OW. I feel that his relationship was at least an EA, but never have been able to confirm and he to this day is adamant that they were "just friends." Their friendship ended a few days before our D was final. I wouldn't be surprised if I found out that there was an A of some kind, but so far, no one is talking or admitting anything.
Coming along for your journey, Mae. I agree, just take it one day at a time.
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Mae, I am following along with interest. As I said before, our timelines are very similar, mine being 2008, 2012 and 2014. From what I am reading, you are putting way too much pressure on yourself in trying to decide what to do.
First of all, you should go on your cruise and give your mind and body a break. You so deserve that. Try to get away from reality (like our spouses do,) and make this all about Mae. You will have time for reality when you return.
When you do return, you will just have to do what you feel is best. Don't worry about what your husband is saying he "wants" to do. This is your gift of time and you need to use it wisely. You don't have to make any decisions now. When the time is right for decisions, you will know it. You do hold the power.
I didn't think I could detach, but one day, it was just there. I accepted it and now I feel so much better. You can't "force" yourself to make a decision. It will just happen when it happens.
If your husband is really sincere about wanting to come back home and make things right, he will wait for you until you are ready for him. You deserve the best, and he needs to earn you back.
Enjoy your holiday cruise. Hugs. xoxo
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Never.......how is it you come up with this great advice??? That is excellent advice.....which I am going to follow, I especially liked the bit where you said to use my holiday FOR a holiday....as if that isn't the most obvious thing to do to ..me I was going to use it to 'think about a future R with H'......but I'm already doing that....so you are right, time to 'switch off' and enjoy my girls and having nothing to do except rest, relax and EAT....and then go to the gym to expend all those calories.
You are also right....I just need to 'trust' myself to make the right decision for ME when the time is right....no need to feel pressure or rush into a major decision.
Noex.....I can tell that you love your life right now and a wallowing H has nothing that you would want. Yes one day at a time.....don't know why I was putting pressure on myself.
Faith .....my ex changing his password was because I logged in on another computer, so he received an alert that someone was trying to log on from another device so naturally he changed it as a result. His email was just a place to hold his pics from his phone....nothing at all incriminating.
Seeing H for the first time in a couple of weeks tomorrow and he invited himself home for the night....we'll see, I half expect him to do a runner after a few hours. Anyway taking a leaf from Steelspine I want to focus on just 'listening'......I'm not going to talk about the future (I don't anyway) or his depression, or try to grill him about what he's thinking or feeling.....I need to give us both a break about those things. I'm keeping it light and friendly and I'm putting him to work if he comes home, he can help me (i.e. do most of ) my outside work, the lawns need a mow again before we go on holiday.
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I agree you need to take a holiday and for it to be just that - time for you to recharge your batteries and not make decisions about the future.
I read where you said you did everything for your H and didn't engage with others much and it may be really good for you to take a book with you on your holiday. There is a great one called Co-dependent no More by Melody Beattie and it is one that H was given by a psychologist at the beginning of his crisis - idiot psychologist!! H just used it to find an excuse to run ::) It teaches detachment and how to look after yourself and gives lessons on what to do. I think it would be great for you to get a different perspective and stop being a fixer, like most of us are :-[
When you come back, you'll be a new woman, ready for your H and his madness.
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Yesterday H came down for a visit and to watch our D's first sports game of the season.....D's team got well beaten. D14 and H have a fractured relationship. H loves D very very much but his running away in 2013 did some severe damage to their relationship and it has been uneasy ever since. When he left earlier this year, D shut him out of her heart. Meanwhile her and I have drawn very close. D14 also has a boyfriend who has started to stay over while H has been away (you can infer the rest).....I am not happy about that at all but that horse has bolted and there's no going back unfortunately. My D also is very independent, very mature and strong minded......I knew the best tact to take with her as regards her boyfriend (whom to be honest I love as part of the family) is to make sure she is looking after herself and keeping safe (which she is).
Last night when I broke the news to her father about D's relationship with her boyfriend in the car on the way back from seeing a movie all hell broke loose. He was ropable, and extremely upset.....he wanted to do all sorts of nasty things to D's boyfriend (he wouldn't).....at one point he tried to blame me...but I shut that down straight away. We arrive home and I tried to advise hubby just to let it go, to not go into the situation all guns blazing and warned him that tact with D would make their relationship even worse.
D was of course home with BF. To give credit to H all he said is that he wanted to talk with BF alone in a calm voice. After that it quickly went downhill because D was having none of it. Everything came out and I mean EVERYTHING.....all D's hurt and anger......I had a fair idea of her heart and I was right. The discussion with the boyfriend never took place because D wouldn't let it.....she was practically sitting on her bf screaming at her Dad that no discussion was taking place. It was SO sad to hear D's hurt and it was sad to see H trying to be a father, trying to re-establish that parental role and D shooting him down at every turn. The back and forth was painful......there was a lot of hurt and resentment on both sides....from H it was how hard he works for the family, leaving early and returning late so he could provide a lovely house and lifestyle for D....she countered that with acknowledging it but also saying that that was his job as a parent. He tried to play the parent and father card, she countered that he had no right since he had left and that her life was her own, she was making her own decisions and looking after herself fine thank you very much.....she pointed out that her grades at school were very good (and they are) and that she is managing school and her various sports commitments, she was coping with a lot of things, being a teen, hormones, him leaving, school, sports, being there for me (what a load on her young shoulders)....and she was fine.....she was not going off the rails and how dare he come in and try and tell her what to do. He tried to pull this is my house trick and what I say goes.....yes he went there........she said she would go live with her nana or her grown sister.....a lot of old hurt got brought up.......and then S18 with his GF arrives home and walks into the middle of that sh!t storm......and becomes embroiled in it. Seeing our Son listening to his sister going off in his mind on one of her tirades (they have had a few shouting matches between them) and seeing his father at the end of it whom he still has a very good relationship with and who is more understanding of his dad's depression....was very hard. Son tried to defend his father and tried to get me to intervene.....I was never going to intervene, son wanted me to 'take sides' against D14 who was shouting at her dad to 'go away' and to 'go home' (and her home and his home weren't the same place in her mind).....it broke my heart to see son's pain for his Dad....it broke my heart to see us all in pain, to see our family so broken and hurting. A lot of D's pain is of course for H's abandonment of me too.....she defended me so stoutly my little warrior princess, she was so fierce, screaming at her father 'what have you got to be depressed about, you have the best wife, the best family.....you have absolutely no reason to be unhappy'. She said 'my mother is the best mother in the world, I tell everyone that....she works her arse off for this family and you're not here....mum and I are fine, we don't need you...'
I tried to comfort S18, H also tried to comfort him by saying that it was alright, that son didn't have to defend him. Their relationship at least is fine. They hugged. In the end D said either H was leaving or she was leaving......H decided to leave. S18 was so hurt, all he could see was his Dad's isolation and as he termed it 'being kicked out of the family', he said he was disappointed that I wasn't defending his Dad and taking his side.....I said I wasn't taking sides because it was their relationship and that these were the consequences of H's choices....he couldn't see that. I said Dad knows that I love him and want him home....son said "you should have supported Dad more."
Needless to say last night was a bad as it could be for my hurting family we were all in tears, every one of us. H left......son was very worried he was in no fit state to drive and ran out to make sure his dad was ok. D cried and cried for a long time afterwards.....I am very glad her BF was there for her. H called me half an hour later.......I can only imagine his loneliness, isolation and grief. He had stopped about 10 ks out of town....we talked for a long time. He said he wanted to come home and I said he needed to be whole and well before he could come home, that he needed to understand himself, to get himself healed and then come home and work on healing his relationship with his family. He was able to disclose that he was trying to deal with his issues in counselling....so a lot is happening on that front which I hope will help him.
One thing that I was reminded of was that H was always seen as the disciplinarian....while I got to be the caregiver.....and I have to apologise about that, it isn't fair that he has to be the 'bad cop' all the time and I get to be the good one.
All this on the eve of our holiday.....it is no good plus there is a cyclone in the works exactly in the area where we will be cruising into this week. I'm not sure how much of an impact this will have on our holiday but it sure seems as though my family is moving from one severe storm to another. :-[
Oh yeah and H came home sporting what looks to be a beard....(I hate beards and he knows it).....D said 'what's up with him....he looks like a homeless person'......in some ways her description is apt....my H is adrift and cut off from his 'home' which is here with us his family. He should never have left........his need to leave, to be alone was all encompassing at the time....and now that he has left, all he wants to do is to come home again.......all that is so precious to him he walked away from.....he should never have left.
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Mae,
Maybe your holiday cruise will take you to a new exciting port you can not even think of now....oh what wonderous possibilities!!!!
Keep your head up, keep swimming!
Hugs
1P
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So sorry to hear about the fight. Family dynamics in a normal relationship and marriage are hard. Add in MLC crap, and family dynamics can be off the charts hard. Hang in there Mae.
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Wow Mae. Wish my D14 could do the same as yours....I know she wants to, maybe her therapy will help her get there. But, my D14 is a peacekeeper, so she will continue to bottle up her emotions concerning H. Both of our H's did nothing to repair their relationships with their D's. I have told him, you broke it, you fix it, I'm not smoothing anything over....this was his doing. He finally gets it, and is finally making an effort with them.
Have an absolutely amazing holiday!!!! Enjoy this time with your precious girls! Wishing you all the best!
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Mae, I am sorry for the "rumble in the jungle", but everyone has opinions on things including D14 and S18. They are both entitled to their feelings and opinions. Both are valid. I am sorry that your H was hurt, but as you stated, his actions have consequences. Her feelings about his actions, he will have to deal with. Her pain is just as real as his is.
I applaud you for not jumping into the fray. You are absolutely correct that this is between your D and H.
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Just a quick update before we get onto our ship today :D
We packed up and flew out of our home country yesterday and arrived 3.5 hours later to another country where we will board our ship this morning. We are having a great time already. The cyclone is due to be cleared out from the area we are heading into although the seas may be still a bit rough....but I have bought plenty of sea sickness pills to take care of that.
Before I left I dropped my phone and it cracked although still usable. H offered me his phone as he has switched to using his work phone as his main phone. So he cleared his phone and handed it over. Yesterday at the airport while waiting for our plane I spent a bit of time noseying through his phone, obviously his text messages are gone with his sim but I opened the internet browsing history and also his facebook messaging ap. Internet browing history was interesting........but the real kicker was his facebook messenger.
Just after BD I saw a message on H's phone where he planned to go out and get totally smashed with BF....he then text BF and said 'want to end up in Prettygirl's bed'. Some time ago I noticed he had added a new friend to his facebook account, I thought nothing of it...I don't know her. Yesterday while at the hotel and still snooping I saw a bunch of facebook messenges back and forth between them while he has been away. To be fair they were mostly just over a few days in mid-April and nothing since then. It dawned on me .....and I swear I am particularly dense that this girl who he added on his facebook and whose conversation I was reading was 'Prettygirl' (they have the same name......see I am dense).....WTF.....my heart starts thumping madly....I read on....for an EA .....it's pretty weak....BUT I see the beginnings of a relationship forming. Mostly they are swapping stories about food and exercise stories what they like, what they do and so on. She likes yoga...H likes the gym and running. Back and forth and so on.....sometimes they talk about food.....pretty inocuous. She has some self-esteem issues because she is saying how she doesn't think she is that attractive etc.......H is saying that YES she is very attractive and hot....she is saying the same thing back to him. I see that they have planned a yoga session together. I also see a text where they confirm they are attracted to one another......Prettygirl says so we agree that we are attracted to one another but we aren't going to do anything about it......H confirms that the case....then he ends the conversation because he says it was getting 'heavy'. The last message they had was April 16....ages ago. Shortly after H ends his job and moves into another one. While I am reading all this and feeling my gut getting all twisted up into knots H rings me to see how we are doing.......I immediately launch into a tirade about him and Prettygirl....he begins backpedaling very quickly....I run out of credit in the middle of it.
A lot of stuff goes down between us I won't do a blow by blow account cause I'm on holiday ;). Anyway what I saw between H and PG was basically it according to H. He said he did one hot yoga session with her and hated it and is never doing yoga again. Nothing happened between them and nothing is going to happen because he is committed to me and his family. There was a lot of tears....a lot of hurt, a lot of reassurance. Today he is going to 'unfriend her' from facebook and tell her directly (even though they have very little contact anymore) that he is no longer friends with her, that he loves me, has always loved me and is committed to me and to our family.
As much as can be dealt with NOW is happening.....so I feel pretty secure and can concentrate on having a great holiday. I will be back in in about 12 days times.
BTW.....where is our friend Stayed? I miss her and hope she and her family are good. Maybe she is having a well-deserved holiday too.
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Mae, you sound so good and I am so proud of you. I know only too well those gut-wrenching moments when we find something on a phone or fb or somewhere else that just gets you out of control.
This holiday is for you now. It is time to shut down reality, relax and enjoy. Really, everything will still be here when you get back. It sounds like your husband is trying very hard to make things work and that is a huge plus.
With you being gone now for a few weeks, the reality of it all is going to hit him because he is not on a holiday. He is stuck in reality.
I hope you can get your mind off of all of this and focus on just having fun. You so deserve it and I am hoping for a great update from you when you get back.
Enjoy. (((((HUGS)))))
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Hi Mae, sorry you snooped and found out what your H has been doing. You seem to be taking it rather well. I won't go into anything now, I just want you to have a great holiday. As for Stayed, she is on holiday as well.
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Snooping is a killer Mae, I did it too, we all have a need to know and then are unhappy when we find out.
My H's text messages to his first OW were also very tame but there was also the potential for more - she was married so it never eventuated beyond a few stolen moments and probably went physical - I don't know.
I think the second OW dumped him and their text messages were of him trying to impress her and her trying to get away from him. She was obviously not broken enough and he was just happy with anyone at the time.
Enjoy your holiday and try to forget your H for the remainder and stop looking for 'evidence' on his phone - it will drive you crazy.
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Attaching -
The deadly Phone snoop... That is how I found out about my Mid-Lifers PA as well... UGH
And her explanation was so lame that it was laughable... One doesn't worry about having to hide a pregnancy if one only has a fantasy relationship.... I may have been born at night, but it was NOT last night...
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Hello, I'm back! :) Had a lovely time in hot, hot, did I say hot, Jamaica? Some rain in the afternoons as well, which actually, was kind of nice, hehehe. Beautiful down there.
Well Mae, I am only going to say, WE NEED TO KNOW! Not knowing is just about the worse thing ever, because our over fertile little brains go absolutely berserk! Everything becomes grossly embellished (not that the real facts are not disturbing enough)!
I agree with my learned friend learningImOk, for now, if you can, sit back and enjoy your vacation. Try to put him and your situation as "out of your mind" as you possibly can. While you are doing that, also try to grasp that your h is trying to have this thing, BOTH WAYS! He knows YOU very, very well Mae. He KNOWS, all he has to do is sound sad, shaky and contrite, instantly you become concerned and worried about him. Which instantly reassures him, that you are STILL THERE FOR HIM... which gives him more time to carry on doing whatever he is doing.
We forget that these spouses of ours are not the people we married. Something has truly happened and they are very busy trying to trying to play both sides of the fence. What I mean by that, he is trying to KEEP you in a holding pattern, which for the record he is doing very well. While at the same time, he IS actively pursuing other RELATIONSHIPS. Adding and deleting women after women, eventually, he is going to find somebody that he is going to "take the plunge" with. All the signs are there Mae.
Your daughter is ANGRY at her dad because she either KNOWS something that you do not know and she doesn't want to be the one to tell you. Or she suspects something. She is not as "emotionally" involved as you, so is more willing to believe the "unbelievable" then you are. Plus, sweetie, this is the third time he has done this. Quite frankly, would say that your h has been in crisis for quite a long time. I very much have my doubts that he is as "emotionally depressed", at least in the way that you are thinking he is, as he is leading you to believe. In fact, many of his actions are becoming pretty premeditated to me, in the fact that he is now seeing a counselor, is now "supposedly" taking medication, which sends you the impression that he is "really trying" to work on himself and your marriage. Sorry, but I am not seeing that.
This situation is sounding more and more like my personal situation every day. When my h actually became involved with the OW, he then found himself a counselor. Never once did he agree to do counseling with ME
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Back early this morning....still very tired but had a great time with my girls.
I couldn't entirely forget about discovering some sort of weak EA that my H had going......I thought about it a lot on my holiday, but I was also able to put it aside and enjoy the time I had with D14 and GDs 5 & 7. We had pretty good weather, only one rainy day and gloriously sunny days on our shore days....we had a fabulous time sunbathing, snorkelling, swimming and eating....OMG the food.....so many options it was obscene. The girls kept D14 and I pretty busy and by our last day we were itching to come home. I have never appreciated my comfortable bed more than falling into it last night.The peace and quiet of home is wonderful.
I was able to message back and forth with my H whilst on the cruise, I didn't talk about the EA too much......that I will save until the weekend when I see him next.
What I didn't realise is that D14 snooped on my phone even before we had left for the cruise so she saw everything. She kept it to herself and I discovered her snoop during the cruise. She hates her father, she thinks he is a liar.....fair enough.....all the things she thinks about him I also think, the difference is she has no empathy for his situation....again fair enough. She sees a huge contradiction between his words and his actions. He said he wanted to be alone to figure himself out.....what she has seen him do is go away to stay with some other family, go out and party with his friends, enjoy himself, get drunk and start messaging another woman....the very opposite to what he said he wanted to do. Now that he is actually alone in his rental apartment all he wants to do is come home. We both are saying that he is depressed however to her none of his actions indicate that. I tell her that it's just a mask and that he is unhappy....she is skeptical and unconvinced. He really was clueless as to how she felt even after her huge blowout with him the weekend before....surely that gave him a hint?
I had to put him straight about her feelings and that she discovered the text messages....I had to be very blunt with him and those truths hit him hard....I hope so.
Stayed.....you have always tried to get me to open my eyes to my H....I have always resisted. I am still resisting....I cannot believe my H would deliberately lie, like he could be just like all the other MLCers here on this site. I still think my H is different.....ok so he was 'flirting' with an EA......nothing came of that as far as I know. He has unfriended her and told her to her face that he couldn't be friends with her...blah blah blah. Has there been others.....not that my snoop has revealed......his EA was short lived and finished half way through April as far as I know and from what he has told me if he is being truthful. Is he being truthful though? In the past I would have sworn on our children's lives that he always told me the truth....now I would not do that. I have doubts now, I scrolled through his browser history......and what I saw has put severe doubts in my mind....I am going to confront him about exactly which sites he was visiting and why....I will update over the outcome.
Despite this I do not believe that my H is 'playing both sides of the fence', that he is keeping me in a holding pattern. I believe that he has stopped activity that will jeopardize our marriage, is taking his medication and continues counselling so he can get better and come home. Am I being naive? Possibly.
Stayed you WERE right when you say that my daughter is ANGRY and that she knew something about her Dad and didn't want to be the one to tell me. You could be right about all the other things you have said and are saying about him 100%. I very much need you to continue to point out what is obvious to everyone except me. You say that you are doubtful he is 'emotionally depressed'.....can you explain that a bit more? I do think he is taking his meds because he is complaining about them making him tired and sleepy.
H would agree to couples counselling if I wanted it.....I don't at this stage but he has set up counselling with D14 and she has agreed (after a heavy bribe during the cruise).....he has a lot of repair work to do. One of the provisos is that she gets to determine when he can come home. I have a confession to make, he asked to come home at the end of June......I didn't say no.....but this way he is no longer on either his or my timeline.....he is on our Daughters.
Stayed I'm glad you enjoyed your hot sunny holiday and are back with us.
I'm off to get caught up with everyone else. I WAS pretty distraught at the time discovering what I did....but I've processed it mostly.....NOW what I really want to do is to fill in the missing bits....I'm sure there are plenty of those, some of which he has told me, some he has conveniently 'forgotten'....you know what i'm talking about, being so drunk that you're not sure what you have done the previous night.....I'm confronting him this weekend, I'm asking for his phone and I'm checking it, along with his snapchat if he hasn't deleted his account and going through his laptop too and questioning the things I have found on his phone's browser history (I wince when I think that D14 saw that!! He would be hugely embarrassed too by it.)
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Mae, I am so sorry that you have a typical, run-of-the-mill MLCer. They all lie. They all have a woman somewhere, in some capacity.
This weekend is going to be Truth Bazooka time for you. Call him on all of it. Don't let him gaslight you for an instant.
Your D14 knows way more than she should, but that is irrelevant now. He is going to have to do a lot of damage control if he wants to come back. Let him work for it and don't lift a finger to help him.
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Mae,
Sounds like the cruise was wonderful! I'm just sorry you didn't get more of a mental breakdown from all of this.
We all came to this site, wanting to believe our h was different, that he would get through this quickly and easily. But MLC takes no prisoners. We are truly following the script. Trust the process, Mae. Let him be, focus on Mae. You can confront him if you want, but please don't believe him.
Hugs, Mae!
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Glad your cruise was wonderful Mae.
Your main problem with your H is you expect him to act like a 'normal' person and he is not that person right now. We all want to think our MLCers are better or different and some get to be VERY different ;D
We need them to be different so we can tell everyone "I told you so" But where is the unity with others in that? I think sometimes we feel more at home here when the MLCer IS like all the others - we can stop being so smug. Being pushed off your pedestal is rather leveling.
I'm not judging you on this, I've been where you are thinking mine was different and actually like myself more now that I smacked myself down from my entitled thinking.
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Update....
Back from an overnighter with H in his 'love pad'. It was the first time I've seen his small apartment. It's nice but not where he wants to be, it's just a holding space for him until he can come home. So he was nervous over our first meet up for a while and after everything that happened and so was I.
It was sad, it was happy, it was bittersweet. We had WHS that was amazing but thoughts of EA and the things I read and saw on H's phone and facebook messenger intruded. I tried to just enjoy the time with him and I did but I also felt the hurts....it's still fresh.
He looks pretty good, much much better than a few weeks after BD when he looked a wreck. We talked about a whole bunch of stuff such as what caused him to leave. This conversation was very enlightening, he acknowledged that he needs to communicate more about his needs, he didn't and kept them bottled up until he no longer could.
We did full disclosure and I was able to check his phone, facebook etc. I learnt a few things that he got up to when he left.
1. He went out a few times and got drunk, really drunk. On these occasions he kissed girls at the club, some groping may have occurred also. He did not know the girls and his work mates chucked him in a cab before things got really out of hand.
2. He took his ring off for a couple of weeks (I didn't know this) and considered putting a profile on Tinder....he didn't and the ring went back on.
3. He did consider himself separated and single for a short period of time when there was very little communication between us.
Burgeoning EA was already over when I read about it. He said it never would have gone further than what it did. He has cut off all contact/communication with her, other than the odd occasion where they may see each other in the elevator at work.
He hates not being able to come home to us and being excluded from our family life now. I hate it too.
Do I think I got full disclosure.....well yes. I don't think he slept with anyone or that things progressed further than what he told me and what I read with EA.
What is happening now......counselling will start with D14 and him first week of June. If this goes well and their relationship gets better she may indicate he can return home.
In some ways I feel I have taken several steps backwards, I feel insecure, needy and needing reassurance from H....I feel as though I have been 'sucked back in. My self-esteem has taken a real hammering and yet I can see that I have taken great strides since our separation....it's only when I am back with him that I feel insecure and needy. I feel like I need to be constantly reassured and he isn't even home yet......this is tough.
I do like being at home and having it to myself....this has become my 'sanctuary'. When I'm with him thoughts of our separation, our relationship....these things crowd my mind. When I'm home again just D and I, I am at peace......GEE doesn't take a genius to figure out which option is healthier for me at this stage huh?
I'm so tired, we had to sleep on this awkward pull out couch thingy that was hard and uncomfortable. I won't see him again for another two weeks. I wish....I wish this feeling of calm and peace would last.
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It's funny but a few days post visit with my H.....I am enjoying this phase.
I have an H that is full of regret, has taken ownership of the devastation he caused when he left and has analysed the reasons why he left. He has clearly done some introspection work. When we talked over the weekend he explained the build-up of pressure inside him, his isolation at home, my busyness, the dysfunctional relationship with D and S leaving home to go to university and other stuff....to me it made perfect sense, all the stuff he explained....TRUE and I had to take responsibility for my own actions in contributing to his break-down....which I did however he 100% owned it, said none of it was my fault and that it was his own inability to communicate and articulate his needs which is what he has always done, the pressure built up and was triggered by huge work stress until he blew apart, devastating everyone.
He had a bad day yesterday and was tearing up at certain points at work so much he had to escape to the bathroom. My H is a guy that rarely cries so it must have been pretty bad. He is looking at his situation and having a pity party I guess. His new bed arrived....no more hard sofa bed....he said that instead of being happy about sleeping in a proper bed it's just making the separation worse, as if the bed is another symbol of his separation from us.
We have talked quite a bit about his depression, his journey through it. He said counselling really helped him sort out his feelings and understand himself better. I'm forever poking and prodding into his mind, dissecting his actions, asking him what he thought and felt at certain points in his timeline. He did admit that at one point it got really really bad....like suicidal bad.....I was really shocked to hear that. I haven't dissected that much....I am still trying to get the timeline sorted....I lost my phone and our text messages over the separation was a kind of journal of that time...now I am struggling to timeline his journey as I try in 'fill in the gaps'.
He is very open. He got a bit upset at one point when I asked for his phone so that I could go through it, he handed it over immediately but then kind of grumpily asked when I would stop checking it....I replied when I felt I didn't need to anymore.....I already feel I don't need to but I won't tell him that.
He is answering all of my questions and rehashing of the short-lived semi EA that occurred. Last night I quizzed him again when he stopped talking with Prettygirl, he said when he moved roles and she wasn't in his work space anymore....so out of sight, out of mind. By the time I found the tame messages between them it was long over. When I first discovered them he didn't even know what what I was ranting about.......it wasn't until he went back over his messages and read them himself through objective eyes that he saw what I was upset about. I also asked if it was hard for him to stop contact....his reply 'No', it happened naturally as he changed roles. He said it was hard to have the face-to-face contact with her to formally end their friendship....because it was awkward and it was in its death throes naturally anyway. I asked him if he thought he would have gotten together with her.....he said 'no'....I asked him if he missed their friendship, he said 'nope'. I asked him if he meant what he said at BD 'ILYBNILWY'....he sighed and said that he has always loved me, there's never been a point when he hasn't loved me, that he was just searching for an excuse to leave.
He did say that sometimes having contact with me was hard....I understood immediately what he meant.....I asked him if he wanted less contact or no contact he said he wanted contact. I remember after Easter when he rang me because I had suddenly gone dim being unhappy with the lack of contact from him (he thought I wanted it that way)....he said when I asked for more contact and a phone call every day....it made him so happy......remembering that makes me happy.
D and I continue to live in relative peace and harmony at home....she complains that I don't cook anymore....I don't apologise for that...I LOVE not having to cook a meal everyday.....she says 'Mum I'm sick of takeaways every day'...and I'm like 'bohoo.....not going to change', she could always cook for herself (but realistically I can't see THAT happening)....and our oven is broken....I need to get it fixed.
I am actually enjoying my life. I am reconnecting with H....in that we have a level of intimacy (yes a lot of that is the honeymoon phase kicking in) that is wonderful. I am processing the EA (and really it was hardly that) and I'm nearly done with it and the hurt, I am still processing the kissing and possible groping of random girls whilst in a drunken state....but pretty sure once I talk this through with H a couple more times I can put that to rest as well. I've talked through his admission that the ring came off for a short period of time.....I still need to process that a bit more......what I'm saying is I've got it pretty sweet if I'm honest. I have reconnection with H, lots of contact and a level of intimacy that I haven't had with him in a while both physical and emotional. I have the peace and quiet of home and a great routine with D. I have a sense of self and a rediscovery of myself that is continuing.
BUT I feel a little tired and drained now. The anger and high emotions that gave me a lot of energy to reorganise my life, get stuck into the house and gardens, go the gym etc is abating.....I miss that and I will need to reignite that 'spark' again that got me through such a difficult period.....now I need it to improve myself even more and keep me moving forward.
Oh I am proud of myself though, when I arrived home on the Sunday after visiting H, I had a nap then got up and went for a run. I did 10ks.(6.2 miles)...I did it easily.....I am absolutely thrilled, I have never run so easily for so long in my life....my gym work is really paying off. I plan to run 10ks every weekend, maybe it can be a Sunday thing. I turned 50 too whilst on the cruise.....enjoying my health and fitness.
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Mae,
Sounding good for you
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Happy belated birthday, Mae!
Good to read your recent updates. This phase sounds good, I hope it continues!
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Mae,
Your H sounds a lot like mine. Taking responsibility for his crisis, trying to figure himself out. I really don't question my h at this point but I don't know if that would change if it looks like he's taking the steps to truly come home.
We've definitely been drawing closer and reconnecting. I hope it continues for us, and for you as well. And happy belated birthday!!
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Yes Noex I can see the movement your H is making....that's been a long time coming huh? It just seemed as if he were completely stuck wallowing around....but maybe he's been processing too.....I loved the way you could remain detached and connected at the same time....I don't think I would have had the patience. I know you will be watching him with interest whilst still doing your own thing.
Since my H and I have had our first major reconnection last weekend, I couldn't stop myself from questioning him over and over again trying to fill in the gaps. That need has lessened considerably as I process and his openness to answer any and all questions....he's not trying to hide anything from me as far as I can tell. I still need to get the timeline down on paper so I can process what I remember him saying to me and what he was actually doing. So for example if he was telling me he missed me and loved me but was going out on the weekend, getting drunk and kissing random girls....I wouldn't be too pleased about that.
My H has had a tough couple of days. On Monday he was nearly melting down at work realising his situation and the consequences of his actions. He's been telling me that he has talked to a few guys at work and he's amazed that a few are going through something very similar to him. One guy in particular is in almost exactly the same situation as H EXCEPT this guy has not run away. H has been telling him recently DO NOT make the same mistake I made (i.e. run away) he will regret it dearly as H is doing now.....BUT then I wonder maybe 'running away' was exactly what H needed to do to force him to face the demons he was trying to escape from.
Then on Tuesday my H had devastating news on the work front. His old team and the whole unit which was established to support not only his team but many others.....they received news that it was being disestablished, leaving masses of people without jobs. He got out of there at exactly the right time, his old job is gone.....he dodged a bullet, we are both hugely relieved and yet he felt really bad for his old work mates.
He is feeling the separation much more keenly than I am......which is unsurprising. He is alone by himself in a small apartment. He goes to work, he goes to the gym and he goes back to the apartment.....sad and lonely most of the time. Meanwhile I have our lovely house, my family all around me and D14.......on a daily basis he has no-one to go home to, no one to support or comfort him other than me through the phone, no wonder he is struggling.
I am also trying to 'soften' up D14 to being open to relationship repair with H. Not sure it is working but I think she is listening. We will see come the counselling session first week of June. Some have said to me not to lift a finger to help H in that department...but I couldn't NOT help....I want my family back together, I want my H to have a close and loving relationship with D because he is missing out on so much with her....I will do all I can to make that happen if I am in a position to do so and I am. He knows he has a lot of work to do to make things right with her and if I can get her to the place where she will let him that is half the battle won.
So H and I continue to repair and reconnect and plan for the future. If all goes well with D by the third session of counselling (fingers crossed) she may indicate to her Dad he can come home. He would move back on the weekend no doubt, he would give notice in his apartment (three weeks) but he would not hang around, he'd be back straight away. I estimate he will be home by the beginning of July.
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Things are sounding good Mae, let's hope they continue in a positive direction :)
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Had a hard phone call conversation tonight with H, we usually have several texts throughout the day and an evening catch up. He was sick so he wasn't feeling the best however tonight was the night I had set aside to get a good handle on his timeline, what he did and when. It was hard work......it was not that H was resistant to telling me or maybe he was slightly but he also mentioned that he didn't like to think about 'the dark times' again and that it was really hard to place his thoughts and actions into a sequence.....I understand that. I told him I needed to understand his journey, I needed to put the pieces of the puzzle together so I could process it, understand it and move on, so I wasn't assuming or imagining what he was doing/feeling. So this was not a lovey dovey phone call tonight......this was a 'here's what I need from you at this point H'...I think he struggled with that a little. He's going to do what I asked. More poking and prodding into his mind....I never did that the last two times.....but this time I'm not letting it slide.
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Hi Mae,
Yes Noex I can see the movement your H is making....that's been a long time coming huh?
Actually, in terms of MLC, I am still quite a "newbie". BD was September 2016 so only 8 months ago. I didn't think at the time that 8 months would fly by, but it has. I fully expect he will still need time and space for a while, but I am also hoping that since he's actively working on trying to get through his issues that it won't take him as long as the typical MLC timeline.
I have thought about H's timeline too. There are a few things I really don't understand, but I have decided that it's really of no consequence to me. I know without a doubt there was an EA, and a PA, with OW. I'm sure she's gone now. I know when that all started he was lying to me. I have to understand that if I ask him things that make him feel pressured, he will lie about them now. So I'm satisfied living my own life, taking one day at a time.
I hope that with the answers you got from H, you are able to move forward, Mae. It's so unbelievable what happens to our H's.
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Thanks for letting us know how your H was feeling during this time. It would be helpful for all the LBS's who read here to have you post the feelings your H had about his crisis so we can gain knowledge into the mind of the MLCer.
Thanks :)
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Noex you said this:
"I have thought about H's timeline too. There are a few things I really don't understand, but I have decided that it's really of no consequence to me. I know without a doubt there was an EA, and a PA, with OW. I'm sure she's gone now. I know when that all started he was lying to me. I have to understand that if I ask him things that make him feel pressured, he will lie about them now. So I'm satisfied living my own life, taking one day at a time.
I hope that with the answers you got from H, you are able to move forward, Mae. It's so unbelievable what happens to our H's."
It's funny you should say this Noex because in trying to piece together his timeline all I seem to be doing is rehashing my own hurt. Last night I even asked for his online banking details so I could check
His spending. I am obsessed currently with what he was saying to me via text and.what he was doing. For example in late April he was promising me that he would fix his issues ....which is great but not if he is then meeting with fantasy EA for a yoga session.
I'm saying to myself "Mae what are you trying to achieve here? More hurt? A reason to make H feel more guilty and regretful and stupid so he can grovel at your feet and you can feel smug and superior?" He is regretful, he is desperate to come home, is willing to change and do whatever it takes to make amends to D14. He is loving and present and open......I can see, feel and hear his remorse and his commitment to me and our family. Surely that is what is important here.......so I'm dropping it. When I dig deep down all I want from my h is reassurance.......when my mind thinks of only the hurt all I want really is my h telling me he loves me. When I remember the messages between him and FEA (fantasy EA) telling her she's hot and attractive all I want is for my h to tell me that I'm the only woman he has ever loved. When I think of those drunken incidences of him kissing random women.....I want him to tell me that he was being stupid and ridiculous and thank god for his friends who stopped it from going further.
Noex, you have moved past needing to know.....I think I need to as well because I don't think it's about needing to know at all....it's more about letting my h soothe me when I'm hurting and reassuring me. I think my probing is making him very anxious.....he is scared I'm going to change my mind about letting him come home (as if). At the moment he is away for a few days overseas with his two very best friends but not enjoying it very much, is missing me and very anxious, just wants to come home.
So I'm going to back off. I still have a few questions which I will ask but knowing that the answer is not the goal but rather the reconnecting between us.
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[quote author=No expectations link=topic=8952.msg591781#msg591781 date=1495708957
I have thought about H's timeline too. There are a few things I really don't understand, but I have decided that it's really of no consequence to me. I know without a doubt there was an EA, and a PA, with OW. I'm sure she's gone now. I know when that all started he was lying to me. I have to understand that if I ask him things that make him feel pressured, he will lie about them now. So I'm satisfied living my own life, taking one day at a time.
I hope that with the answers you got from H, you are able to move forward, Mae. It's so unbelievable what happens to our H's.
It's funny you should say this Noex because in trying to piece together his timeline all I seem to be doing is rehashing my own hurt. Last night I even asked for his online banking details so I could check
His spending. I am obsessed currently with what he was saying to me via text and.what he was doing. For example in late April he was promising me that he would fix his issues ....which is great but not if he is then meeting with fantasy EA for a yoga session.
I'm saying to myself "Mae what are you trying to achieve here? More hurt? A reason to make H feel more guilty and regretful and stupid so he can grovel at your feet and you can feel smug and superior?" He is regretful, he is desperate to come home, is willing to change and do whatever it takes to make amends to D14. He is loving and present and open......I can see, feel and hear his remorse and his commitment to me and our family. Surely that is what is important here.......so I'm dropping it. When I dig deep down all I want from my h is reassurance.......when my mind thinks of only the hurt all I want really is my h telling me he loves me. When I remember the messages between him and FEA (fantasy EA) telling her she's hot and attractive all I want is for my h to tell me that I'm the only woman he has ever loved. When I think of those drunken incidences of him kissing random women.....I want him to tell me that he was being stupid and ridiculous and thank god for his friends who stopped it from going further.
Noex, you have moved past needing to know.....I think I need to as well because I don't think it's about needing to know at all....it's more about letting my h soothe me when I'm hurting and reassuring me. I think my probing is making him very anxious.....he is scared I'm going to change my mind about letting him come home (as if). At the moment he is away for a few days overseas with his two very best friends but not enjoying it very much, is missing me and very anxious, just wants to come home.
So I'm going to back off. I still have a few questions which I will ask but knowing that the answer is not the goal but rather the reconnecting between us.
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Some great reflection here Mae. Good on you for digging a bit deeper into your motivations and not just digging into H's.
Wishing you all the best
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Mae,
I second what Hope said. You were able to examine your own self, that is what I try to do as well. We have no control of our MLC'ers, but if we take this time to become the best US we can be, we have used this time in the best possible way.
Hugs!
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Well I had a pretty bad night last night. Why do I torture myself endlessly?
I went back and re-read the messages between H and FEA......even though it was by all accounts a weak, tame thing......the things that WERE said still hurt horribly. So many things bothered me, H repeatedly telling Prettygirl she was hot and very attractive to bolster her self-esteem issues, the back and forth for hours over two days until late into the night, the mutual acknowledgement of the attraction between them, the planning to do exercise sessions together, references to pledges and oaths (again relating to self-esteem issues), the acknowledgement that things between them were sometimes veering off from the 'friend zone'. Now this was a woman who H had found attractive some time ago. And then he lied about who she worked with, he told me she was in BF's team but in fact I think she worked more closely with him than he led me to believe.....so he LIED....he actually lied and he tried to fob me off about it too....said he couldn't remember him telling me that but I wrote it down, why would I write that he said she was in BF's team if he hadn't said it. This is the first time I have caught him in a lie......so STAYED was right in the end when she said THEY ALL LIE.
Now if he can lie about that....what else has he lied about? It makes me question everything he has told me. And honestly if I disclosed what I found on his browser history, it makes for very suspicious reading....and I have questioned him repeatedly about it....but he swears he has not done anything beyond drunken kisses with random girls.....SO fine. I do believe that FEA did not progress beyond what I read and that the friendship was already in steady decline especially when he changed roles.
I hate the knowledge gaps.....even though just before I posted that I would give up trying to fill them in....I'm getting fixated on them again. H is very focused on coming home and we are reconnecting but I can't let these things go to focus on what is happening NOW.
He is out of the country too and back home on Tuesday so I can't even discuss anything with him....so here I sit with my questions and suspicions....going nowhere just festering away.
What galls me too is that he ran away after one night with me and then spent the next two days chatting with her until late at night >:(....telling her she's hot and attractive...while I was at home hurting with our daughter >:(
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You are actually torturing yourself Mae, it does us no good to keep revisiting the things our MLCers say or do, they do all lie and cheat and do other things our 'real' husbands wouldn't but that's MLC for you ::)
What your H did was wrong but you have a choice how you react to that. Sure it hurts that he finds another woman attractive, we never think our H's will actually start texting or talking to other women but they do.
Try to focus on you again and stop replaying all the things he has done. They have already happened and can't be changed so accept what happened as his madness and decide who to be in relation to that.
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You are actually torturing yourself Mae, it does us no good to keep revisiting the things our MLCers say or do, they do all lie and cheat and do other things our 'real' husbands wouldn't but that's MLC for you ::)
What your H did was wrong but you have a choice how you react to that. Sure it hurts that he finds another woman attractive, we never think our H's will actually start texting or talking to other women but they do.
Try to focus on you again and stop replaying all the things he has done. They have already happened and can't be changed so accept what happened as his madness and decide who to be in relation to that.
SF....you are RIGHT....I am torturing myself....and your advice that things have already happened and can't be changed....right about that and also about how I am reacting to it. I'm torturing myself because I can't fit the pieces together and I am now imaging what they might be.
I need to stop....but I can't. I will only stop now when I am satisfied with his answers, when I fit all the pieces together so that I won't be guessing or imagining. This feels nearly as bad as BD.
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If you expect the answers your H gives you to make sense and give you some peace, you many be setting yourself up for some more hurt.
The problem about asking questions of the MLCer is that we know the answers we want to receive and when we don't get them, it hurts all the more.
You are expecting him to be rational and truthful and he can't possibly be that person right now. The conversation may not be the best plan.
When the emotion has gone out of your current feelings the answers you receive will not matter anymore. The reason for this place telling you to detach is exactly that. There is no longer hurt attached to what the MLCer says because there is no attachment to the answers.
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I need to stop....but I can't. I will only stop now when I am satisfied with his answers, when I fit all the pieces together so that I won't be guessing or imagining. This feels nearly as bad as BD.
Then, to be brutally blunt, you are well and truly screwed.... MLC Logic is 1 + 1 = green dancing llamas. You might as well try tasting blue... with your elbow......
You will NOT get a straight answer that makes sense to a rational person as long as you are dealing with someone in MLC. It really IS just that simple.
What you need to be doing is taking HIS answers OUT of the equation. Fit the pieces together for yourself - without his input. THEN they will make sense. If you keep trying to put his "input" into the equation, you will keep coming up with an irrational number as a result....
"Doctor, it REALLY hurts when I stab myself in the nose with this Meat Fork!"
"Well then STOP STABBING YOURSELF IN THE NOSE WITH THE MEAT FORK!"
That is what detaching is all about... There is NOTHING that the Mid-Lifer can say (especially since about 0% of what they say is really true anyway) until they are out of the tunnel and trying to reconnect (if they ever do) that is going to allow you to put all the pieces together and to stop guessing and imagining. That is why you need to understand that this is NOT about YOU. This is HIS crisis. Detaching your emotional state from his roller coaster allows you stop guessing or imagining because it will NOT MATTER ANYMORE! Why? Because there is NOTHING about it that you can control... period... Basta. Ende.... Over and out! You have as much of a chance of guessing right as you do guessing next weeks Lottery numbers......
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Stayed, SF, UM......they are all right, Mae. Lies, deceit, theft, running. ...all script, all MLC. As for answers....sorry, but, hahaha. He doesn't have any answers that will be truthful and satisfying for you. Detachment from him is the best solution and only recourse if you truly want to have peace. You cannot truly move forward while trying to pull the past into to your present. If your past wants to have a future with you, it will have to take the necessary steps and make the required strides to get to that place. Nothing you do or say is going to make that happen. Simply put, his behavior and choices are beyond your control.
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Mae, I said to my xH when we were done, that I really wanted to have answers to get closure for myself. He told me to send him an email asking what I wanted to know. I actually sat down at the computer and started typing questions. Then I decided, why would I want to hear all his BS answers? He doesn't know why he left. He doesn't know why he cheated.
As an example, in the goodbye email he sent to me said he hated his job and he didn't want to do it anymore. Brainiac that he is, he works for HIMSELF. Then sell the business. Do something else. Firetrucking idiot!
You will never get an answer, at least not a true one.
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Oh boy, Learning!! Still just when I thought I'd heard it all...hates his job, but works for himself. Yep, that makes perfect sense. Always on top of it, those MLC'ers. ::)
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beyond, I know, really? He has total control over his life and he has to walk out on the M because he hates his life and I must be the cause of it. Yep, perfect sense.
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Mae, I said to my xH when we were done, that I really wanted to have answers to get closure for myself. He told me to send him an email asking what I wanted to know. I actually sat down at the computer and started typing questions. Then I decided, why would I want to hear all his BS answers? He doesn't know why he left. He doesn't know why he cheated.
As an example, in the goodbye email he sent to me said he hated his job and he didn't want to do it anymore. Brainiac that he is, he works for HIMSELF. Then sell the business. Do something else. Firetrucking idiot!
You will never get an answer, at least not a true one.
Um.....I have already sat down and written out the questions in an email to ask him. I was hoping he would answer them. They are unsent.
I won't see him until Saturday. I am doing quite well I think......I MADE myself STOP thinking about it.......I thought of other things instead. It does no good to think about all the hurt and horrible things he may or may not have done, he is not here to either give me reassurance or tell me different. So when I decided to stop torturing myself I felt much better. I realised again I am in control of my thoughts AND my reactions and I can choose how I feel and how I react...so I'm glad I 're-learned that'.
I am not really seeking answers to the WHY......like SF said I just have to put it down to the MLC crazy....and that's fine I can do that. I am seeking answers to the WHAT? What happened?
Half-truths....fudging.....forgetfulness....I've had these as answers, I am still really pushing for 'truth' or if not that then honesty about what happened and when, because my gut tells me there's more to it than what he is saying. Do I need to know? I need to know if he is lying about the things he told me.....you will all say that lying and deceit goes hand in hand with the MCLer.....that as soon as they are opening their mouth they are lying......maybe so, but I want to see and hear that for myself.
H is through his depression.....he can look back and tell me what he did and when he did it....will he? I don't know, all I know is that if he can't be honest with me then our marriage moving forward will be based on lies. I just hope he loves and trusts me enough to be totally open and honest....it won't change my love or commitment for him....if anything total honesty will be the thing that binds me to him more than ever even if they are things that will hurt deeply.
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I do think you are setting yourself up for a big fall Mae but it's your life and you do get to choose your battles with your H.
I don't know if your H is through his depression or not but he doesn't sound very 'together' yet. I would think that he needs a lot of psychotherapy before he is ready to re-commit to your marriage and he has been BDing you way too many times over the years fir there not to be something very wrong with him.
Without proper answers considering your first BD was back in 2007? - I don't think you could ever trust him not to run again and having him live with you and always having the threat of him going again over your head - I think if it were me I'd be saying goodbye, just to protect my own heart. It's a BIG ask to take back someone who has done what your H has over such a long time and maybe you could do with thrashing out with a psychologist why you are willing to keep forgiving him over and over.
You both need to be very clear about your reasons for being together and would benefit from professional help so your mind is in the right place for reconciliation.
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Yep SF....no guarantees that this won't happen all over again you are right.
I do think we have identified why this keeps happening with my H and what we can do to stop this mad cycle.
But you are right too we may need professional help to untangle it all. Someone here described one LBS's decision to stick by their MCLer wife ....I can't remember it exactly but the image remained so strong in me....and that's how I feel with my H....the image was of not leaving your spouse behind when they have fallen....and oh how she had fallen, but the loyalty and love of the husband saw past that to the beloved inside. I am crap at describing it....but I remember feeling that I would be that person for my H.
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So H got back into the country early this morning and we have been catching up via text and phone calls.
I have plans to see him this weekend and D14 also has a sports tournament over two days (Sat & Sun). I asked D14 if H could come watch....she said yes but NO talking. I told H that......
No response after I told him that. I text him 'You ok?'.....nothing. Not sure what he expects....it's like he doesn't comprehend the severe damage he has done to his relationship with D14...or he's forgotten what he's done or what has happened between them in the recent past...hello!! Big blowup in April where you said all the wrong things! Hello D14 reads your facebook messaging with FEA where you are telling FEA she's hot and attractive and then a mutual acknowledgement of the attraction and planning get-togethers.
Clueless......consequences do your thing! I'm not chasing him to soothe his feelings.
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Exactly..... H will have to repair the R with D as he is the one that bodged it.....
Not your job to deal with it. You passed the information on from D to him. HE now has to deal with the consequences....
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So H did have a big moment processing the fact that he can't even talk to his own daughter on the weekend. What he came up with is that maybe he should stay away permanently so that his and my relationship doesn't negatively impact on mine and D14's relationship....so he would sacrifice our relationship for mine and D's. ??? I told him to stop talking stupid and feeling sorry for himself. He claimed he wasn't.
I find I am struggling to spend any quality time with my H. My weekends are very busy with D's sporting commitments and this one goes over two days. I wanted to spend two nights with H at his apartment but realistically I will probably only get to spend one. Next weekend is out because it is D14's birthday (she will then be D15) and we have a busy weekend planned and I can't fit a visit with H in.
There is still a lot of things I need to sort out with H but I want to do it face-to-face....maybe I have to resort to sending those emails I have sitting in my drafts box so I can get some answers.
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What he came up with is that maybe he should stay away permanently so that his and my relationship doesn't negatively impact on mine and D14's relationship....so he would sacrifice our relationship for mine and D's. ??? I told him to stop talking stupid and feeling sorry for himself. He claimed he wasn't.
Not sure which one is more appropriate....
(https://media.giphy.com/media/DsIq17MaLJEHK/giphy.gif)
or
(https://media.giphy.com/media/fwwBEeAvl8s9O/giphy.gif)
Next thing you know, he'll be telling you how he even closes his windows at night so there will be more fresh air for you and D....
I don't want to sound like Nelly Negativity or the Prophet of Doom but it sounds like he's looking for a "Get Out of Jail Free" card so he can go guilt free...
Or he has a serious Martyr complex...
You called it right when you said to stop feeling sorry for himself... He ought to man up, suck it down and work on HIS relationship with his D... Your R with D is just fine....
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LOL @ UM.....I feel so PRIVILEDGED that I have the famous UM emoticons on my very own thread....what a moment (flashing cheerleaders pompoms should be here). Love your comments too.
Anyways.....I'm pretty sure he's not planning an exit strategy. I had another bad night last night due to various reasons.....all H-related....that I bought on myself because I was.....you know....doing the thing you shouldn't.....no not that one :o ....the one where you make assumptions. So last night I had to go to my second-to-last resort......the sleeping pill.....oh magic pill that brings me peace. Even after that I had to go to my very last resort when that wasn't enough. Yep I did it....a bit ashamed......I gathered up our big fat fluffy cat and hugged him to me under the blankets :-[ the whole night.....or until I had loosened my grip enough for him to escape my clutches......got two flea bites for my trouble...but it was worth it! And this morning I dosed the cat with flea treatment.
Had a long morning conversation with H where I cleared up a lot of stuff around the FEA (Fantasy Emotional Affair). One thing I didn't say on this thread is that I messaged her and asked her if anything happened between her and H (I did it in a nice respectful way).....she is not an affair down BTW...she's young, gorgeous and seems genuinely nice. Know I shouldn't have done that but did it anyway...end of story. Not heard anything back.....fine....she's out of the picture. Anyway H told me she rang him to tell him that PLUS the fact (unbeknownst to me) that D14 had friendrequested her on fakebook. Oh dear.....H said a polite thank you to her and disengaged...so we discussed that this morning. I'm not going to say anything to D14 about it.......she will only get defensive and angry at her Dad and I'm trying to soften her up so that counselling goes a bit better next week. I told H that maybe like me she had unanswered questions about their relationship and just wants to know, maybe she is being my champion and making sure that evil OW is far far away from us...don't know but not going to stir up that hornets nest. So for me that's it FEA......get out of my thoughts and life!! I'm going to try and not bring her up in conversation even if it's with myself in my mind EVER again!
Got a busy busy weekend ahead.....mostly D-centered as always but also H-centered. No time for anything me-related unfortunately but that's ok. Maybe I will go off and see a movie by myself (there's an idea).
Feeling good today....was struggling a bit yesterday....at the gym I was making strange noises which could have been heard as work-out pain...but was really broken heart pain.
D14 had made a chocolate cake...very very delicious, I had more than one piece....and maybe more than two pieces.....ok ok I had FOUR pieces.....had to go back to the gym and do another session to work all the calories off.
Lots to get done this morning before I go to work.
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Well drat. I had a whole long post written and I lost it.....
I'll redo it in the morning when I get on a PC again......
Mae, that was probably one of the funniest things I've read here in a long time......
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Hi Mae,
Just to clear up the affair down stuff here is a link to an article. She IS an affair down BTW.
http://www.midlifecrisismarriageadvocate.com/standing-actions_dealing-with-infidelity_what-makes-the-alienator-an-affair-down.html
I was concerned that you found it necessary to get in touch with the OW to ask if anything happened. In my case, I think the first affair my H had which was the EA was worse for me than the PA and any subsequent. All affairs are emotional because the MLCer shares intimate information with the OW about us and their lives in general. The OW is used as a sounding board for their dissatisfaction and this type of sharing is an affair much worse than anything that happens physically between them. If the affair was PURELY physical it would be better in my opinion as they are not sharing information that I know would cut me to the core. If your H spoke to her about feeling terrible/old/trapped or whatever other rubbish they talk, it's the worst type of betrayal imaginable, I would rather they were being physical than discussing my faults.
If the OW told you she was not physical with him you can take it that they were discussing intimate things about his life and that is not ok. Most LBS's obsess about the physical affair but but put yourself in the same position and tell me what is worse - you having relations with another man or sharing intimate details about your H with him. I know what hurts me most and it's not the physical.
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Hi SF,
Thanks for the link. EA did not respond to my question in the end. From what I read my H was talking about food and exercise with her the whole time....NEVER how he felt emotionally or us. I think the fact they had both recently broken up formed a commonality between them, a basis to explore something else. I don't think he talked about me or the kids at all...he didn't share that with anyone I think except maybe BF....but I will ask about it. She didn't share anything personal either........their relationship NEVER got past talking about exercise and food and their mutual 'hotness' ::) as far as I can tell and then H realised it was a stupid thing to keep going. They were NEVER close EVER.....it's really laughable.....he shared NOTHING with her....the only thing I get upset about is the 'physical' aspect of him wanting to sleep with her and telling her how attractive and hot she was....so it was physically based .......I probably need to change FEA to FPA (Fantasy Physical Affair). He told me recently that they really had nothing in common, that she is into soy foods (he's a meat eater) and yoga......which he hates.
And you are right, for me an EA would probably hurt way way more than a PA....in the end what he had with her was neither.
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Mae, I truly hope you are right about your H just casually "chatting" with this fantasy OW...just remember not everything is always as it seems, and I am not trying to bring you down or lay blame where there may be none. You'll have to forgive many of us here because 99% of us wore those same rose colored glasses and just could not EVER fathom our spouses behaving so callously. Please just proceed with caution....and NO expectations at this point. These MLC'ers are the kings and queens of causing pain and destruction. I just want you to be prepared, if one can ever be prepared for something like that.
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Thanks for the caution Beyond....it is well deserved. As we have seen many times over on this board the things we swear our spouses would never do are actually the things they ARE doing, have done and continue to do.
I remember saying to Stayed and others on my thread that I would SWEAR on my kids life there was no OW involved with my H.....well it was half true.....there was an acknowledged physical attraction....which never went anywhere and some sort of friendship that never went anywhere serious emotionally or otherwise either thankfully.
So she is out of the picture and has been for some time and now H is fully focused on repairing his relationship with D14 and coming home.
Their first counselling session is this afternoon, H is extremely anxious about it going well.
I am stepping back....I have been way too involved in trying to be the mediator/buffer/counsellor for both of them but actually they need to sort it out between them. I found myself trying to tell my H how to act and behave with daughter....um no, I need to butt out.
I also need to keep the focus on myself.....I found myself getting drawn back in to all the old habits of neediness and insecurity with my H as well as focusing on the stuff he did that was/is causing me pain. I am stronger than that, I don't want to be that person anymore, I do not like that person I am when I am with him....and I don't have to be. I like the me I am discovering.......more open, more self-aware, more patient, more independent, more confident.
Whoops time slipping away.....have to go.
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So I am sitting waiting for H and D14 to finish their first counselling session. I can hear the counselor talking about lot, I can hear H, I can't hear D14.....she is not speaking much.
But this is only the first session.
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Good luck, sending ((((((((Hugs))))))))
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Well the good news is that the first counselling session is over and the next one set up same time next week. The not so good news is that D14 didn't speak very much....just sat there with poker face and little to say. I didn't have much to say after the session, I didn't poke and prod D14 about it....I just took her shopping afterwards.
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I'm guessing that D14 is going to take some time before she is willing to trust her father again... (just a hunch here)
By not prodding and grilling her, you are establishing a "safe" place for her so she just might open up to you at some point... But, you are 100% correct that this is up to H to resolve - after all, it is his relationship with D14 that they are working on...
Staying out of it is the right thing to do...
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The counsellor will get her to open up in her own time and will give your H a chance to dig his own grave well before going in and showing him his faults.
D14 will be feeling much better after a few sessions as she has nothing to be sorry for and her father has quite a lot ::)
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Thanks UM.....yes you are right...I need to be the 'safe' place for D14 and not pressure her with my expectations, so thanks for that insight.....will keep my nose out of it.
SF ~ Yes that is what I also expect of the counsellor.....that he will draw D14 out over time...it's reassuring to hear your assessment....cause it makes me anxious and a little stressed that D14 and H may never get their relationship back on track.
I've been involved in some S&M goings on lately....no other party involved of course....a party of one...self-flagellation at it's best. Revisiting the pain over and over, getting hurt and angry and being hugely annoyed at myself for those feelings.....and then......Barbie posted on someone's thread and it was all about how hurt and angry she was ONCE the reconciliation process had begun with her H and how it lasted for two years....TWO YEARS.....and I was slapping myself silly after just two weeks. So her experience validated what I seem to be currently going through......so THANK YOU Barbie! There is no reason to feel 'annoyed' at myself that I'm still feeling hurt, betrayed and angry. I am 'allowed' to feel that way, I am 'allowed' to question my H repeatedly until I am satisfied. I did that tonight.......we went through the whole FPA/FEA thing again....he was very open, answered my grilling as best as he could, was patient, was not defensive.....so I feel 'satisfied' for now. I think I stated that I wouldn't bring it up again in conversation with H or let it occupy any headspace.......I'm realising that these things take time to process, it's not like a check-out counter, scan it once and it's done....these hurts may need to be scanned a few more times to put them into 'perspective'.
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This is a really difficult time for you Mae and you need all the time you want to process, ask questions and completely lose it if you like. You are completely entitled to feel hurt and angry but be aware of being a fixer for your H or your D, it is their relationship to mend and not yours and if your D decided never to talk to her father again, so be it, not your fault. I doubt that will happen but concentrate on you and do all the things you did during MLC and protect your heart.
Anyone who is reconnecting tells how hard it is and I do understand on one level. There is as much emotion in re-conection as in MLC replay and no-one expects you to do this fast or hold back any emotions you may need to get out.
Do all of this in your own time but keep positive, stay away from the news broadcasts or any people who drag you down and watch comedies and uplifting movies, take walks and do things that make you feel good to keep your spirits up for the bad days you may face.
I am told it is all worth it, it had better be.....
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Yes SF....I was trying to be the 'fixer' of my H's and D14's relationship and that is not my responsibility so I will continue to take one step back, then another and another and keep my lips zipped!
Unfortunately I am not able to 'protect my heart' as others are able to do and have low expectations. I now have high expectations of my H but also of myself. My heart is once again open and loving to him, but I would like to think it's a heart that knows life can be great without him.
I also like your comment to keep positive and do things for myself. Very busy day/s ahead workwise, need to get through this week.
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Mae, as everyone else has said, there is nothing wrong with your relationship with your daughter, and that is all you need to worry about. She is old enough to figure out how/when she wants to forgive her father. He has hurt her bad and he is the person she is supposed to be able to trust. My daughter was devastated when her father disappointed her. Lay low on that one.
I just wish you could protect your heart a little bit more right now and not have such high expectations. I am so happy things are going in a positive direction, but I just wouldn't want to see you getting your heart hurt once more.
I wouldn't look for anything or ever call the OW again. You are better than that. Hopefully, she is totally out of the picture. She will only get pleasure by you, the wife, trying to reach out to her. Stay away from danger.
Fingers crossed for only good stuff in the future for you!!!!
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Hey Never,
Yep OW totally out of the picture......she is NOTHING to me and I actually laugh at their pitiful short-lived friendship.....(once I got over crying about it that is) apparently she is trying to get back with her ex.....don't care.
Generally advice from most quarters is for me to protect my heart, set low expectations etc.....I then go and do the opposite.
While processing all of this I remind myself of the four agreements and the one I hold onto the most which fits just about every situation in which I perceive that I have been 'hurt' by my H's actions is the one about it not being personal. H's messaging with FEA/FPA, removing his wedding ring, kissing random girls.......none of it should be taken personally.....had nothing to do with me....so why should I be hurt by it? I'm still fascinated by his thought processes as he was doing these things though but in a detached way......I can discuss it with him now and not feel as though it was done to deliberately hurt me because it wasn't.
Rambling a bit now. Got time on my hands. I've parked up at McDs on their free WIFI while D14 is at her sports practice. Sometimes I may run around the courts for exercise but tonight I thought 'mehh' and ate a cinnamon muffin instead....delicious.
Doing great day-to-day. D14 and I are going from strength-to-strength although she has a way of finagling all sorts of expensive things out of me! Yesterday after the 'not so good' counselling session she managed to extract new clothes and a large bedroom mirror....full length so she could admire herself.
Other news is that H and I have set a date for his return home in three weeks time from Sunday which would take his return to the beginning of July....hopefully by that time the great thaw would have begun.
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Sounding good Mae.
The date you two have decided on, I hope it's YOUR date and not his because of excuses he has for making it happen.
It's really important that you control this and are certain you are doing the right thing at the right time?
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Date is a mutual agreement......three weeks is the time he has to give notice for the apartment and also hopefully three more counselling sessions with D14 (soon to be D15)....so perhaps they will be a bit further along in terms of repair. H suggested it and explained his reasons and then he asked for my agreement and input.
Thanks SF for following along and the support....I've noticed you doing a lot of that recently and it's great because I get a lot out of your posts including those posted for others.
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Mae,
You are getting there! Just want to offer you some support to know that we are rooting for you. Take your time.
1P
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Thanks Mae :-*
I have been here a long time and think you are doing a great job of this.
Keep remembering how important you are in all of this and Your H has to do most of the work to get you back and not the opposite. As I read on another thread, we are the lighthouse for the MLCer and the lighthouse guides the way back and warns of danger but doesn't fix things and it's important to remember that.
As women we often think we have to put all the effort in and in the end it's the MLCer who needs to be fanning us while feeding the grapes and champagne, not the other way around.
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I haven't updated in a while because nothing much has changed, I update my signature so that at least is current.
H and D15 are in counselling. They completed their second session on Tuesday. D15 talked very little at that first session. She was more talkative at the second session but through what she is telling me and what H is telling me, I deduce that she remains very sceptical. She brought the whole FA (Fantasy Affair) up at counselling and called him out on it. She called him out on a lot of things......she said she leaned back on the couch for a lot of the session and played candy crush while H and the counsellor talked...she said she may as well not have been there....but she did interject while he was talking, either to call him out on the things he said or to call him a liar.
I actually feel really sorry for H. D15 told me that she didn't want to hear excuses or 'I'm sorrys' from her father which I had relayed to him earlier......so when they were discussing the FA he was trying not to blame the depression for his actions because that would have been an excuse....but then the counsellor pointed out that if the depression didn't contribute to his actions then his actions were deliberate, something he chose to do from a clear mind......that of course makes what he did about ten times worse.....oh dear. Nothing he said actually helped D15 feel less hostile or more sympathetic towards him, in fact everything he said just confirmed what she believes about him....she said to me that she knew exactly what he was going to say when the counsellor started probing before he said it......if she expects lies and excuses from her father then whatever he said didn't change any of those things in her mind.
He is not revealing his real self to her, the broken, deeply depressed, near suicidal self......he want's to 'protect' her and not 'burden' her with what he went through....I'm not sure that is the right tact with her, because she can sniff out the untruths. I think the right tact with her is to be nothing but honest, to reveal exactly his true thoughts and feelings. I could hear some of what they were talking about and yes D15 was spot on, when H was speaking, his answers were always 'filtered' almost like he was an observer instead of the perpetrator....it was weird, so I get it when she said she knew what he was going to say before he said it.
She seemed ok after the session.....which in itself was a little worrying. If the session had touched her at all, she would have been upset...she wasn't, she was unruffled, calm.....nothing had changed. It's not that I want her to be upset but I see strong emotion as a good sign. H found the session tough, she didn't.
I still need to learn to zip my lips when offering him advice on how to handle her as this seems to be backfiring somewhat for him. I'm no psychologist and although I think I know my daughter I shouldn't be trying to 'coach' him.
We are now two weekends away from the move back home. It was D's birthday last Saturday....she had a great day, was spoilt by me and we had a wonderful family dinner together for her bar H.....that was very hard for H. He did text her a birthday message and she did respond to him, even had a 'love you' in there for him too.......unfortunately that doesn't mean things have changed for her, so if he expected a 'thawing' from her after that he would have been greatly disappointed. There will be 'no thawing' unless he can somehow break through those barriers of mistrust and betrayal she has up.
I continue to greatly enjoy moments of being 'husband-less', these provide a counterpoint to the moments of sorrow and longing for H. I find a strong desire to keep hold of this newly discovered sense of 'self' and some aspects of being 'alone' that H's abandonment has provided, and which I am greatly enjoying. A focus on myself, mainly this is doing what I want when I want without recourse to someone else......I love this freedom and yet I also yearn for the companionship and physical/emotional connection with my H. How do I retain and strengthen this wonderful sense of self and freedom and reintegrate myself back into 'married life'? I will need to think hard and develop some strategies so I do not lose myself in 'us'.
I have also been working on what I call my two main pain points, the FA and the disappearing ring. My mind will often want to go back and 're-read' the messages between H and FA....when that happens, there is inevitably big emotional fallout.....SO I have stopped looking at the messages....it's stupid and pointless and hurtful. Every time I am tempted.....I tell myself 'no'....like Stayed with her big 'STOP' sign, it's been very successful, as I turn away from the FA I find it is receding more and more into the past where it belongs. It's the same with the disappearing ring act.....the less I focus on either pictures of my H being 'ringless' or now seeing him with the ring back on, the more I can focus on what is in front of me which is a present, remorseful H who is trying hard to get home again. But I have to say that I no longer view his ring in the same way. He has worn it for nearly 20 years and never taken it off until the last BD.....I can't express how it felt to see the pictures of him where he had removed his ring and then him admitting that he had taken it off.....it's like he's sullied the ring now, it's tainted and seeing it for me is a trigger. If he took it off that would also be a trigger, if we bought a new one, again a trigger....so that's a 'no win' situation for me....all I can do is hope that time will heal that wound for me.
I will see him on Sunday when he comes to watch D15 play a sports tournament. We talk each night and sometimes during the day as well. The following weekend I probably won't see him as I want to spend time with my grand-daughters and then the weekend after he will be home. Sometimes my mind boggles, he wanted desperately to leave and be alone and now he desperately wants to come home. I am planning to get a few agreements in place though mainly to safeguard the house, I do not want to get 'caught out' again. Although he has identified how he needs to change to stop this cycle of depression and flight....I'm not sure that even with the best will in the world, another cycle is preventable....and I would be 'done' if it happens again. His bag would be packed and a one way ticket out the door issued if I ever hear 'the speech' again.
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Hi mae, sounds like your Daughter has a lot of hurt and anger - the counsellor will break that down over time so be ready for a melt-down.
Teenagers are great at bottling things up and showing anger to mask things - this will shift as your H is honest during the sessions. This whole thing will do both of them a lot of good and it is great that your H gets to know what life was like for her and you during his crisis.
Enjoy your hussbandlessness!!
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I too, am loving my time now, like seriously loving it. Yes I miss H, and what we had, but i can't go back to what was, I'm a new person now. Will be quite an adjustment for both of us when we R, which I know will happen, just not yet, we both are not ready....this is know. The girls are not ready yet either, we all enjoy an H-less home. No eggshell walking does wonders for everyone.
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Just following along, Mae. Thanks for keeping us updated. I can't even imagine the emotions that you are going through right now. It is amazing how all of us have such intense emotions at every single stage, but until you get to that particular stage, you cannot know what it feels like.
I am sure your husband feels as scared as you do about his routine. I am also sure it will probably be like walking on eggshells during the initial move back home. You have to remember that that's okay, though. All of this is meant for our growth.
Please try to forget about the ring. I totally understand about triggers. My husband's phone is a huge, huge trigger for me. I HATE it. I hate the ring tone also because it brings back terrible memories.
The ring, though, before my husband went to treatment, he put on a necklace he always wears but not his wedding ring. Was I hurt? You bet. But then I realized it is out of my control, and if that's how he feels right now, that's his choice.
Your daughter is at such a tender age, but she will get through this. Remember, though, that is something they have to work out between them. That relationship is separate from you. He needs to earn her trust back, and with how she's been hurt, it is going to take a lot of work from him.
My stomach gets anxious just thinking about him moving back. Please keep us posted every step of the way.
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Thanks BB, Never and SF.
Yes I do need to keep out of D's and H's relationship, it's hard though NOT to be the mediator but he has to do the work with D, and it will be very hard.
There is so much I need to remember when I think about the imminent move back. I am mulling over what SF said recently to me and that essentially (rewording it) was to let my H do the heavy lifting in the R when he comes back. I would like to do that, I was the one being caregiver whilst our marriage was on 'life support', it was me putting it safely on the shelf and making sure it remained clear of the demolition job my H was doing......maybe I get to have a break soon.
I also read the article about contrition posted on the forum, that was good too and a reminder that I need to see positive action from my H consistently over time.
I will try to 'forget' about the ring....and I get the phone thing Never, that USED to be a huge trigger for me too from BD 1 way way back.....his phone followed us everywhere. That trigger faded as his behaviour regarding his phone changed.
Last night I went back and read over the FA messages that used to cause a major spin out, pleased to report the reaction was 'mehhhh' and then I went straight to sleep. This is good progress for me.
I got my hair done yesterday, it looks great.
I hope you are right SF about the counselling unpacking my D over time.....she is a tough nut.
I am busy at work and am working a four late nights in a row bender, I've done one late night and feel exhausted already, only three to go.
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Keep up the good work Mae.
You will get through.
I am sure your shoulders are getting tired, but remember what strength they have. Deep breath, baby steps and stand tall!
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Things will unfold with the counselor Mae, just watch and see :)
Get some sleep after such a lot of work and don't read the FA messages again - not helpful.....
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The other day I sent my H the link to the 5 love languages quiz. I predict that his top two are quality time and physical touch (pretty much same as me).....haven't caught up with him yet about that. I also bought the love languages book (men's edition) for him, but as yet not managed to hand it over for him to read.
I have been mulling over the excellent article about contrition and how it differs from remorse and regret. My mind has been thinking of H's imminent return home and what that means for me and us. Last month when I visited H at his apartment and asked to see his phone he handed it over but then snarkily asked when I would stop checking it, that was the first time I had done it. That reaction is NOT contrition, it is not the response of a man who accepts and acknowledges the consequences of his actions on me the betrayed spouse and understands the need for me to have open access to his life and activities. It made me feel defensive and as though rebuilding trust had a time limit. It made me think that I am not seeing the changes that will assure me that we can rebuild a better, stronger relationship.
I also had to ask myself what actions other than words (he's been pretty good with those) is he currently displaying that indicate his awareness and commitment to change? It was really hard to come up with anything concrete but maybe I am being too harsh, after all perhaps he is saving it all for when he comes home. We have spoken at length about what needs to change so we are on the same page about that, but as regards to repairing our R, what other actions might he be taking or planning to take? I know that already I am taking the lead in that department, sending the link for the love quiz and also buying the book for him is just one example. I continue to read and think about making our relationship better.........I feel again I seem to be the one putting in the effort. Am I being too harsh? He's not really a big research/book person so what I would do is not necessarily what he would do. I'm pretty sure he has no concrete plan about how to repair us or even how to go about it, he will just put a lot of effort into rebuilding a close physical and emotional connection....maybe that's fine too? I will look forward to that.....we have always been a very 'loved up' couple and I miss that very much.
I also keep in mind what SF posted to me about allowing my H to do some heavy lifting in the marriage, so I sent him an email providing a link to the 'contrition' article. I wrote that his reaction to my request for phone access was not contrition and I questioned his commitment to change and repair. I asked him about what repair looked like to him, if he had any ideas how to go about it. I told him I had given him the space and time he needed to get his head sorted, I looked after our marriage and had faith we could repair while he had removed his ring and acted as though he were single. I supported and encouraged him, kept our connection going even as he was running away after contact and building a connection with FA. I told him I now needed him to take over and do the heavy lifting, that I needed a break.
Shortly after he rang me and asked me what I meant exactly.....he was frightened I meant that he couldn't come home or I had changed my mind. I explained that I hadn't, but that he needed to do some work in repairing us. It put him in a 'spin' and he got panicky and anxious and started to think 'dumb thoughts' as he put it. I asked him if he had strategies to cope with those thoughts....he said he did (thank you counselling!!).
My truth darts are making him look at his actions. He agreed with everything I said. I was very surprised. But these same darts caused him to feel anxious and panicky, although he also said that his reaction should not stop me from throwing more.
Maybe I need to 'back off' a bit. He is clearly still not 100% and I am wondering if I am putting 'pressure' on him when he still needs time to fully recover from his depression. Don't know, but if I don't call him out over those things that concern me, I'm afraid I will just let things 'slide' and then we are back where we started again. When I remember BDs 1 & 2 I recall there was no real contrition, no real acknowledgement of the damage inflicted and no change. That is NOT going to happen this time. I need to see change in him and I also need to change myself...for the better if we want our marriage to survive.
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Hi Mae,
A gentle 2X4 here. When I read this, it seems to me that you are still the one doing the work. I also had to ask myself what actions other than words (he's been pretty good with those) is he currently displaying that indicate his awareness and commitment to change? It was really hard to come up with anything concrete but maybe I am being too harsh, after all perhaps he is saving it all for when he comes home. We have spoken at length about what needs to change so we are on the same page about that, but as regards to repairing our R, what other actions might he be taking or planning to take? I know that already I am taking the lead in that department, sending the link for the love quiz and also buying the book for him is just one example. I continue to read and think about making our relationship better.........I feel again I seem to be the one putting in the effort. Am I being too harsh? He's not really a big research/book person so what I would do is not necessarily what he would do. I'm pretty sure he has no concrete plan about how to repair us or even how to go about it, he will just put a lot of effort into rebuilding a close physical and emotional connection....maybe that's fine too? I will look forward to that.....we have always been a very 'loved up' couple and I miss that very much.
Twice there you asked if you are being too harsh on him. This about a man that has left you three times. That has started at least an EA with someone. That does not take responsibility for repairing the damage.
Even when you acknowledge he should be doing the "Heavy lifting", you sent him a link to an article. If it were me, I would be afraid he won't ever fix himself, why should he, if I'm always there to spoon feed him?
If you are asking yourself what actions you should be seeing, I'm afraid he's not done much. And I'd be concerned about him coming home so soon.
Just my opinion, for what it's worth. But I don't want to see you set yourself up for more hurt, you've been through it more than enough.
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Noex,
2x4 gratefully accepted. It doesn't look great does it? At least he is acknowledging the hurt and damage this time around....at BD#1 he claimed he 'did nothing wrong' and at BD#2 I had to initiate marriage counselling sessions and I expressed a lot of hurt and anger in those.....he barely acknowledged that. I know he seems uncaring but he actually isn't.....he is so loving and connected most of the time.
I do feel as though I am 'spoon feeding' a lot. I don't even know what repair looks like, it's obvious I never had it those previous times.
Even doing research on this board about repair/reconciliation still makes me feel as though I am doing the work, but then what should I do? I don't like to do just nothing other than stand back and watch his actions.
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Mae, you need to learn to stand back and let him fix what he's broken. If he broke it without your input, he needs to fix it without your input. If your M is important to him, he'll do what HE needs to do to fix it. Period.
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Mae, I totally get your confusion. When I read what you posted I was looking forward to what others have to say because I think I may be in a similar position.
Must find that article on contrition.
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The discussion will need to continue on a new thread though.....
It's time.....
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Thanks UM,
Here is the link to the new thread:
http://mlcforum.theherosspouse.com/index.php?topic=9132.0
Just not sure how to lock this old one.