Midlife Crisis: Support for Left Behind Spouses
Archives => Archived Topics => Topic started by: With Gods Help! on March 27, 2011, 02:11:46 PM
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Abandonment For those who need to understand it:
For those who want to understand that the feelings they feel are normal read this xxxxxxxxxxxxxx
For most abandonment survivors, the issue is control. Thanks to the increase in stress hormones, they don't have much: Nature has taken over. The life they want is not within their immediate power. Their primary connection has been severed; isolation has been foisted upon them by someone else's choice.
Abandonment is a state of INVOLUNTARY SEPARATION. They are shattered by an aloneness they did not choose. They feel deserted, dependent, and demoralized, having sustained a narcissistic injury. The lack of control makes them feel like a victim.
Emotionally, it feels like they're in the recovery room having just had their siamese twin severed from them. What makes the pain so unbearable for abandonment survivors, is that it wasn't their idea to have the surgery; it was the OTHER person's. Even worse, the OTHER person has (often) already re-attached to a new love-interest and doesn't feel the intense pain of separation. The relationship is medicating the abandoner from feeling what the abandonee is faced with - - rejection, isolation, and a profound loss of love. In other words, the Abandoners aren't suffering in the recovery room, because for THEM it wasn't major surgery. They're 'out and about' in a new life.
Both sides, however, are on an emotional roller coaster; both feel regret, confusion, remorse, and anger. But the one who was left behind bears the brunt of the tear. The fact that it is more painful to be the abandonee than the abandoner is rarely acknowledged by the latter, because both sides want to be considered 'the injured party.' Long Term Relationships: If the couple's lives had been intertwined for a long time and they had grown to count on each other for security and support, the one choosing to end the relationship will struggle with the agony of guilt. Abandoners are often themselves survivors of childhood losses and separations, and have their own abandonment issues to deal with. This makes it particularly difficult for them to acknowledge the full extent of the pain that is caused by their decision to end the relationship. It threatens their idealized self images when they witness their former partners' (understandable) reaction of anger and grief, and of not wanting to 'let go.'
They feel they are being thwarted and mistreated by these reactions. They resent the 'control.' They feel 'punished' for trying to start a new life. They begin to perceive their former partners as 'the bad mothers.' This development suggests that rather than feel less about themselves, abandoners have attempted to project rather than internalize their negative feelings, They've exercised the 'victor's option' to blame the victim. Many begin to rewrite the history of the relationship, distorting facts, blocking out emotional memories, negating the original basis of the connection -- all in an effort to justify their decision to leave someone who still wants and needs them. This causes abandonees to feel completely erased and even more isolated. They don't even have memories to hold onto; their entire emotional reality has been disqualified.
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This article describes my situation and my feelings precisely.
The Siamese metaphor is perfect. Yes, I feel like a Siamese twin in the recovery room,
still feeling the other's presence like an amputee feeling the missing limb.
Yet I'm the only one who hangs on to our memory while my W has moved on.
Thank you WGH for posting this.
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WGH,
Thanks for posting the article.
It's very accurate to how I feel and how I felt when my H left.
Unfortunately, it all sounds sooooo hopeless when you read it.
Hugs,
L
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Yes it does when you read it thats why its important to understand the reasons behind abandoment, Laursecan what happens when you take control of the abandoment and not let the abandoment control you xxx
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Excellent information
I also read in the Journey from Abandonment that in a long term relationship your heart beats and bio rythems are meshed and in that separtaion the shattering and ripping of that connection is unbearably painful.
I remember that feeling well. And it went on for the first couple of months for me. Nothing I'd ever want to have happen again. But the strength I gained is awesome.
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Thanks for posting this...it's all so one sided...I think some marriages break apart "mutually" but in our case, that wasn't so..still isn't after 19 months for me. He can run, he can hide, he can work and he's able to emotionally block out his feelings...I'm not quite so lucky.
But over time, over time we begin to feel better...I find I block memories of what we used to do, who we once were..it's as though I am trying to "forget" 35 years of our life..for it's still too painful to go there for me..I don't even know if it was real..it was for me, not sure it was for him.
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This was very well written and concise - it presents the rational description of our emotions - which helps soften the emotional pain.
I found more info on abandonment and steps to deal with it in a book "The Journey from Abandonment to Healing" by Susan Anderson. She relates it well to childhood abandonment resurfacing.
But I find this topic very theraputic, so I would love to read more if anyone has any other links or experiences working through it. I guess that is really the general topic of the forum, but the word "abandoment" really describes what I am feeling and what is holding me down.
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Well, I took a chance and passed this along to H.
His response:
"This is interesting. It's accurate for me, except for the new love-interest"
(BTW, H is attached to EA. I guess he is not calling it a "love-interest")
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Hi everyone not been able to post much my laptop kept crashing had a blinking virus, could read for awhile but then it would turn off........anyway my son sorted it for me YIPPEE!!! Heres another article to had to your list....will update on my sitch tomorrow hopefully xxxxxxxxxxx
Attraction -- physical, emotional, intellectual, spiritual --
is important, really important. None of us wants to hang out
with a person who makes our stars fizzle or our minds yawn, but
attraction must be healthy to create a great, or even a good, relationship.
And the only way to determine if your attraction is of the
healthy variety is to get downright honest about what inspired the connection. Of course no person wants to jump up and down
exclaiming, "Look at me over here! I am dying to expose my
messed up relationship!" but if we don't get real about the health
of our attractions, we risk losing what's more important than
anything else -- our selves.
One reason we often mistake unhealthy attraction for the
healthy connections found in authentic partnerships is that most
of us have never thought about it. When was the last time you sat
down for a cup of tea and said, "I think I'll define what 'authentic
connection' means to me today"? Even among those who have
considered the source of their connection, most haven't been
truthful about how healthy their attraction is or isn't. So, ignorant,
blind, or in denial, we end up living in the grips of unhealthy attraction,
feeling like something is missing or wrong, lacking the words
to articulate what that something is. If we're lucky, after lots of
pain and suffering caused by the times we engaged in unhealthy
attraction, we finally free ourselves and learn about our desire for
a true, healthy connection.
I have met more smart and successful women than I care to
admit who've lost their minds, and themselves, in the throes of
unhealthy attraction, dare I say insane infatuation? Same goes for nice, solid men who have a penchant for dating crazy women. I've watched many a wise woman or man lodge a person so deep in their wounds that they mistake the resulting feelings for the authentic, deep, loving connection they were waiting for.
Maybe for some the unhealthy attraction feels so fabulous because their catch comes with a first-class ticket to social status and financial security, filling their holes that come from the absence of self-worth or the fear of lack. Or maybe the person they meet seemingly gives them permission to be the wild child they always wanted to be but their parents never allowed, filling in their holes caused by never feeling like
they fit with their family. Or maybe it is as simple as they crave love and attention so bad, that they are willing to take what they can get... or maybe even too afraid to end it for fear of how the other person will respond.
Regardless of our individual stories and corresponding wounds, when in the clutches of an unhealthy attraction, we are too entangled in our feelings to see the truth. You need to know the warning signs beforehand. Commit the following signals to memory and keep them for future reference.
WARNING SIGNS OF AN UNHEALTHY ATTRACTION
HOLE-STUFFING JUNKIE.
Without a doubt, it's our emotions, hormones, and emotional wounds that control the show here. The feelings swirling inside our bodies and psyches are so intense that it seems impossible to control our actions or stop making self-destructive decisions. Convinced that this person is the love of our life, we experience the relationship as if it were a drug, and we
become like a junkie. The person becomes the fix for our external
needs and gaping holes, and the bigger our emotional holes, the
more intensely we feel drawn to and attached to this one human being.
The physical connection is usually undeniable, like a gravitational pull we can't control. And our emotional and intellectual fantasies
run rampant, which is why most people mistake these unhealthy
relationships for authentic partnerships. But unlike healthy connections,
which support us and encourage us to be our full and
authentic selves, the unhealthy bonds lead to devastating and life-draining
lows.
While the ride may feel good at times, in the end
we are too often left unsatisfied, sad, and empty, with our desires
and needs unmet. The cycle is always the same: we give in to the
intense attraction, fall totally into it and enjoy the highs, plummet to the depths of despair, and then start the cycle all over again.
While it may feel fantastic at times to be intertwined with the other,
using another person to avoid healing our wounds is unhealthy.
COTTON BALLS IN YOUR EARS
This person is "the one," and we will vehemently profess to those closest to us that "HE/SHE is the love of my life, I don't care what you say! . . . If you really loved me, you would be happy for me. . . . You just don't understand." Convinced that we know the real deal even if our friends and family think otherwise, we won't listen to what anyone has to say.
Sure, the relationship isn't perfect -- they've got a girlfriend, they lie, they have an addiction problem, or they are not committing anytime soon -- but because we have great chemistry or some other "special" connection,
we're convinced that the rest of the world just doesn't know
what they're talking about. What most of us need when we're in
this state is a bucket of cold water in the face to wake us the hell up!
If our friends and family scream, "Stop!" and we don't listen, it's
almost a sure bet that our relationship is not a healthy influence.
THE DERANGED LOVE TRAIN.
Our heads fill with thoughts like "Who cares that we just met three weeks ago? He/she told me that they love me, and I love them." We believe without a glimmer of doubt that we are in LOVE. Sure, the feelings are undeniably powerful, and the sex fantastic, so how could it be anything but love?
Warning!
When we start asking ourselves questions like "How would
his last name sound with mine?" "What will our babies be
named?" and "Where will we live?" weeks into our relationship,
we have just entered fantasyland. Even if this person is playing
along, and even if you really are meant to be life partners, questions
like this do not belong anywhere near the beginning of a relationship.
There is no getting around the fact that we cannot be in
love with someone we don't really know. Intensely attracted, you
bet, but in love, no. Love and authentic partnership take time.
ANTIDOTES FOR UNHEALTHY ATTRACTION
While unhealthy attraction may feel great, liberating, and even
life-giving at times, in the end the great feelings are not sustainable.
They may, however, keep us in a relationship for years, preventing
us from finding the kind of relationship we really desire.
Luckily for us, there are extremely powerful antidotes to the
unhealthy attraction syndrome, which all entail being truthful to
ourselves -- and admittedly, this is usually easier said than done.
One of the most effective ways to snap ourselves out of the
unhealthy delusions of our attraction is to stop and question ourselves.
Automatically, whether we're in a relationship or single, it
forces us to turn our focus away from HE, SHE and WE, and place it
directly on ME. The only way we can create what we want is to be real with ourselves, even when it isn't easy. So if you find yourself in a WE, even if things are going great, stop and answer the following questions from time to time.
Challenge yourself to be 100 percent honest, even if -- especially if --
you don't like the answers.
ANTIDOTE 1:
Why do you want a HE/SHE and a WE in your life?
ANTIDOTE 2:
What kind of HE/SHE and WE do you currently have?
Does what you have fit what you want?
ANTIDOTE 3:
If it fits, great. If what you have doesn't fit, what line of
bull are you feeding yourself to make it okay to stay?
In what ways are you settling? Write the ways you are settling out on a piece of paper and stare at them for a while. Play your life forward based on what you are currently settling for. Ask yourself, is this what you want for YOUR life? If not, it's time to take a stand for loving the most important partner in your life - yourself!
Every person deserves a dynamic, life-affirming partnership,
but many of us settle for less, and as a result, we get a relationship,
not a partnership. We stay with people we connect with or are
attracted to, but who are not walking with us down life 's path as
authentic partners -- we aren't supporting each other, enriching
each other's experiences, and nourishing each other's spirit and
heart.
When the relationship moves past the dating stage and in to
the more serious living-life-together phase, unless it's a partnership,
you will find yourself dealing with life's demands
alone. Because we can, we forge ahead, attempting to carry the
burden of the entire load, putting our own needs last and ending
up tired as hell. My experience of doing it alone while in a relationship
was that it had far too great a cost to my soul. No matter
how attracted we are to a person, if they are dead weight, an emotionally
empty vessel, or toxic sewage in our energy streams, then they
have no place in our lives.
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Thanks for posting. Interesting! Although our MLCers, who would benefit from reading this, probably wouldn't.
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If only my H would read this..... I told him he couldn't possibly love this OW after just 5 weeks? H said "why not? I fell in love with you after 5 weeks"? really, I said, I didn't fall in love with you in 5 weeks or even 5 months.....
The comparison between me and this OW is un-nerving and I've never found an answer to it.....
Fox
xx
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Thought this was easy reading and basically says that when our hubby/wife goes into mlc....that we follow their lead by having a transformation of own.........which is why we need to change too xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
This article is an introduction and a list of signs to help identify midlife crisis for yourself or someone you love.
I professionally work with many people in Mid Life Crisis by guiding the process to become a time of transformation. The most important truth is that this event doesn’t have to become a crisis. This should be a time of life to embrace change to become something greater. Don’t let this be a fear driven event, instead follow inner inspiration to make life better.
People often look for a list of signs to validate if a midlife crisis is at hand. The experience is a combination of feelings, events and physical changes that indicate a transformation is at hand. The final proof often occurs in retrospect after a person accepts they have changed and comes to terms with new life patterns. However, it’s possible to see the signs that forewarn of crisis and over time use the symptoms to actually help guide the mid life transformation process.
The truest indicators are the signs that actually illustrate drastic lifestyle changes in a person’s life. Most typically it will be friends and co-workers who diagnose the Midlife Crisis before the person in crisis will even realize it. In fact: just having someone point out you are in a crisis can be enough stress to trip a person into actually having a crisis.
Symptoms of Mid Life Crisis
The following is a list of symptoms that illustrate how defining a mid life crisis is truly relative to the person experiencing the changes.
Looking into the mirror and you no longer recognize yourself.
Desiring to quit a good job.
Unexplained bouts of depression when doing tasks that used to make you happy.
Changing or investigating new religions, churches or new age philosophy.
Change of habits. Activities which used to bring pleasure now are boring. Unable to complete or concentrate on tasks which used to be easy.
It feels good to get hurt.
Wanting to run away from everything.
A desire to get into physical shape.
Irritability or unexpected anger.
Change in allergies.
Desire for physical -Free Flowing- movement (Running, Biking, Dance, Fast red sports cars, Sky diving, etc).
Exploring new musical tastes.
Sudden desire to learn how to play an instrument.
Sudden interest in drawing, painting, writing books or poetry.
Shifting sleep patterns (Typically to less).
Thinking about death, wondering about the nature of death.
Changes to the balance of vitamins you take. Or taking dietary supplements for the purposes of extending life.
Extreme changes to what you eat.
Excessively buying new clothes and taking more time to look good.
Hair changes. (Natural changes in thickness, luster, color or Assisted changes in dying hair suddenly or shaving your head bald)
A desire to surround yourself with different settings.
Hanging out with a different generation as their energy and ideas stimulate you.
Restarting things, which you dropped 20 years earlier.
Upset at where society is going. Experience a desire to change the world for the better.
Feeling trapped or tied down by fiscal responsibilities.
Leaving (Mentally or Physically) family or feeling trapped in current family relationships.
A desire to teach others or become a healer.
Desiring a simple life.
Excessively looking back to one’s childhood.
Playing again just to play!
Keep re-asking yourself: “Where am I going with my life?”
Getting fixated on new “wonder” solutions to problems.
Recently experiencing something extremely stressful. Stress can trigger a Midlife transformation. Some examples include: Changing Jobs, Divorce, Death of someone close, Chemical/Toxic exposure upon the body or experiencing a major illness.
Doing things that get you into trouble when it surprises everyone as being out of character.
Someone unexpectedly exclaims: “You are going through a midlife crisis!”
A Midlife crisis is actually the attempt to restart life to better fit a person’s heart. Due to existing personal commitments, it often isn’t easy to self resolve the inner conflict a person’s feels. As a result many times a person in mid life crisis will act confused or lost while trying to sort out the contradictions they feel and now have in their life. Also many times a person is trying to improve their life while not really understanding why they are acting in the manner they are. This mixture of conscious to unconscious actions often makes a person in midlife crisis unpredictable. This is also leads to the most dangerous mid life crisis symptom of denial. To confront a person in the initial stages of midlife crisis will often invoke and reinforce strong statements of denial due to the disconnect of conscious vs unconscious actions.
Most often a Midlife Crisis is defined well into the process of change. This is because it becomes most visible after a drastic shift’s in one’s nature. However, the process often has started long before the visible symptoms appear. It’s possible to aid a person to discover how to define life to fit better to what makes them content and happy. Care does need to be taken as often times a person in midlife crisis will feel trapped and in a corner without options.
Handling the Symptoms of Mid Life Crisis
Experiencing a midlife crisis is not about curing a set of symptoms. In other words this isn’t something you go to a doctor for a treatment to cure, rather this represents a time of life when a person is looking for an education to expand their life. It’s about shifting life to better fit where the person’s spirit yearns to be. A midlife crisis is a very natural biological and psychological process of a person maturing. While some of the symptoms might indicate a process opposite of maturing: at times a person needs to step backwards in order to move forward. This can also mean learning to play again since play is indeed a form of education.
Everyone evolves within their life as they get older. The truest resolution to crisis is learning to embrace the facts of one’s change and investigate methods of transformation. To do nothing is to let crisis decide how you change, Crisis still invokes change, but it’s an external change that a person no longer can control and often breaks those around us in the bargain.
Another problem is that modern western lifestyles are based upon chasing dollars and goals rather than supporting personal truth. People are so focused looking forward to their incomes and the next pay check that they forget or feel they cannot afford to embrace living to their true internal personal needs in the now. Sadly this way of looking at the problem in terms of finance only, also means just doing nothing and that only promotes and expands the crisis into happening anyway!
Understand: It is far cheaper to address and educate oneself in this process than it is to pay the longer term consequences of letting it become a full fledged crisis.
Midlife Crisis Symptoms
Find Help Changing Direction
One of tht most difficult symptoms to resolve is the fact that people experiencing midlife crisis often feel separated, misunderstood and alone.
A bigger truth when in midlife crisis is that you don’t have to be alone. Rather you can find solace with those that don’t limit the transformation by outside judgments. Many times people in midlife crisis seek solitude to more easily avoid judgment from others.
I know from personal experience you can find answers that gracefully work. This isn’t easy and this is always an educational process. Finding guidance can make this process more graceful by showing ways to work around the common pitfalls. Don’t look for help that tries to define you, rather look for help that helps you avoid common mistakes! The trouble is the pressing feelings of being alone and the need to make this process one’s own path often make it all the more difficult to find outside help.
Partners of Mid Life Crisis
We must also consider the partners of those experiencing mid life crisis. Some of the signs that Mid Life Crisis partners often exhibit are:
Becoming more judgmental
Ignoring there is a problem at all and thinking it will all go away with only patience
And usually 1/4th of the symptoms that the person in midlife crisis is experiencing
As stated earlier: becoming judgmental or patiently waiting for things to resolve actually only reinforce the problems of crisis..
Understand that the process of change is often as hard for the partner as it is for the person experiencing crisis. Partners often find themselves confused and even worse getting left behind as the person in crisis sometimes goes running off to search for freedom that eludes their capacity to define. This often forces partners to become more judgmental as they look for answers and this further drives a wedge between the partners. Know that the worse thing a person can do is to act in a judgmental manner that will actually aggravate a person in mid life transformation into running away straight into facing a full blown midlife crisis.
The most ironic fact is since partners are so close, is that they reflect each other. When one person is in midlife crisis, that midlife crisis is often psychologically contagious to partners. As a result, partners are often a few steps earlier in the process and this can allow the partner to approach their own mid life process more openly in terms of transformation. Since usually they are looking for answers to help their partner, partners often use those very same answers to help themselves unconsciously. Three times out of four it’s the partner who I first assist as they are usually the first person to contact me for help. Being earlier in their own process it is easier to help shift the process in transformation as they have made less mistakes to recover from and are all too eager to avoid the problems they see from the other person in crisis.
Finding Help to Resolve Mid Life Crisis
If this page resonants with you, then it means: it’s time to change routines and shift how you move in the world. The very nature of the signs you are witnessing are also a reflection of a process of change. Denying change is what brings about the crisis you are in or feel is looming ahead of you. Holding on to old answers gives life no space to grow into something new, the very thing a midlife transformation is all about. To preserve the aspects of what you love most often means to release and switch around quite a bit in your life to open space for the path of discovering positive transformation.
Change isn’t easy, and the prospects of change often paralyzes the strongest person. Ironically when this is the case then the solution is often to take a simple retreat to pause and to reflect on one’s life. Sometimes to take pause in awareness itself is the change people need! Often times pausing means to stop the actions which were fostering the crisis. As a result, Pause isn’t to do nothing, pause is an active process of examining potentials and considering which options would fit best in life! People often need to be taught how to pause and this is why those in midlife crisis often seek to learn meditation as a technique of pause to help them find peace in their situation.
This is a time of choice, the choice of crisis or transformation. To do nothing is to pick Crisis, To do nothing is to continue living life to the past choices that led everything to this crisis you face. In these articles I give a person some basic information to work with, enough so you have a chance to encourage the process towards transformation. If you have questions then it is a simple matter to contact me to ask a question.
The solution is often getting a new perspective to encourage actions that channel the crisis energy into constructive processes. Sometimes just asking a question is enough of an action to resolve a seemingly impossible crisis into a process of growth that truly transforms everything.
Source: http://personaltao.com/taoism-library/midlife-crisis/signs-of-a-midlife-transformation/ (http://personaltao.com/taoism-library/midlife-crisis/signs-of-a-midlife-transformation/)
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Uh, I've not seen you on here before but your post really confuses me. I am a therapist also, but your post seems directed at the MLCers and this site is all LBSers. I would LOVE for my W to be able to identify the stressors and triggers but it's too late for that now. I think that would be true for everyone here.
Are you trying to prevent us from an MLC? I've not heard of therapy being effective on an MLCer.
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Partners of Mid Life Crisis
We must also consider the partners of those experiencing mid life crisis. Some of the signs that Mid Life Crisis partners often exhibit are:
Becoming more judgmental
Ignoring there is a problem at all and thinking it will all go away with only patience
And usually 1/4th of the symptoms that the person in midlife crisis is experiencing
As stated earlier: becoming judgmental or patiently waiting for things to resolve actually only reinforce the problems of crisis..
Understand that the process of change is often as hard for the partner as it is for the person experiencing crisis. Partners often find themselves confused and even worse getting left behind as the person in crisis sometimes goes running off to search for freedom that eludes their capacity to define. This often forces partners to become more judgmental as they look for answers and this further drives a wedge between the partners. Know that the worse thing a person can do is to act in a judgmental manner that will actually aggravate a person in mid life transformation into running away straight into facing a full blown midlife crisis.
The most ironic fact is since partners are so close, is that they reflect each other. When one person is in midlife crisis, that midlife crisis is often psychologically contagious to partners. As a result, partners are often a few steps earlier in the process and this can allow the partner to approach their own mid life process more openly in terms of transformation. Since usually they are looking for answers to help their partner, partners often use those very same answers to help themselves unconsciously. Three times out of four it’s the partner who I first assist as they are usually the first person to contact me for help. Being earlier in their own process it is easier to help shift the process in transformation as they have made less mistakes to recover from and are all too eager to avoid the problems they see from the other person in crisis.
Hi Thundarr ive been on this site for over 14 months on another for 8 months although im not a counsellor i think i know alot more than them to qualify lol.........my BD was nearly 27 months ago seeing o/w for nearly 3 yrs with o/c.......... my h as been in crisis for nearly 5 yrs :o :o :o :o :o.............ive highlighted the bit that i thought was for the LBSers ..............i just posted the whole article so it could be related lol xxxxxxxxxxxx
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WGH,
Thanks for that. Because there are times when I feel that I am the one having a midlife crisis. Although, I suppose it is more of a transformation that was brought on largely by the reassessments of myself and my own life that followed the shattering experience of having my MLC H abandon me.
I have had to redirect my entire life, which has involved a lot of reflection and also some testing of old behaviours and new ones - and some mild teenage antics of my own (partying all night while my kids are gone, buying some new younger clothes - this was brought on by a weight loss too though, after pregnancy and then breastfeeding for 14 mths I lost quite a lot of baby weight, and then after BD I lost so much weight that someone asked me if I was anorexic :o - I have put some pounds back on since then, but I am still quite slim and so buying new clothes is fun)..
Having been a stay at home Mum for some years, I am now getting back into work and trying to hone a career direction and I am writing alot (although I was always a keen writer, so this is less a MLC trait and more a "getting back to pre-baby hobbies" endeavour. MLC has certainly given men some writerly inspiration though...
So, as an LBS trying to grieve, and simultaneously navigate some of her own Mid-life issues, what do you suggest are ways to keep this from become a crisis for me too?
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Thundarr, I think it gives great insight into the MLCer dont you think?? Better to READ as IF you ARE the MLCer.
(hope that made sense) It would give you an idea of what and how your wife is feeling.
I actually agree with alot of this..but I am confused about one.
Most often a Midlife Crisis is defined well into the process of change. This is because it becomes most visible after a drastic shift’s in one’s nature. However, the process often has started long before the visible symptoms appear. It’s possible to aid a person to discover how to define life to fit better to what makes them content and happy. Care does need to be taken as often times a person in midlife crisis will feel trapped and in a corner without options.
Here it makes it sound like...You CAN help an MLCer THROUGH it...but I could be reading it wrong.
anyone like to help clarify this part for me??
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Hi S&D i don’t think your having a crisis i think your h's crisis as pushed you to change the things you don’t like about yourself...............this is our journey too but these changes have to be for you and not done to get h back or you will just go backwards........... this is along journey and the time we’ve been given is to improve or do the things we always wanted to do and that will make us better people whether h comes back or not xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
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Here it makes it sound like...You CAN help an MLCer THROUGH it...but I could be reading it wrong.
anyone like to help clarify this part for me??
By making your changes and getting on with your life without them.
You are leading the way.
They see that and come running after you. (maybe)
RE-read the stages of MLC by HB
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Found this link for those who are interested!!!!! xxxx
http://discover-your-mind.co.uk/1c-projection%20and%20introjection.htm
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Thanks WGH.
"rojection means that we imagine that our own virtues and vices and attitudes are embodied in other people. We see in other people what is in ourself. This psychological stratagem is particularly noticeable with regard to our vices. We try to escape from our faults by denying them; we see them only as aspects of other people – it is always other people that are the source of conflict." This makes a lot of sense when applied to MLC.
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Read this and see just how bad these men can be and also how fecked up o/w is :o :o :o :o :o :o :o (believe nothing of what they say and only half of what they do comes to mind here) :o :o :o xxxxxxxxxxx
My X had a series of small incidents..... leading up to a bigger incident.
1. he was not considered for a position that he not only applied for, but was recommended for (by the predecessor in the position) by his boss, and he was the person acting in that position for 9 months while the company searched for a director. He was not offered an interview, which went against company policy.
New Boss came in.... another abusive personality.
2. He told a joke with sexual content... and someone reported him. He was reprimanded, the letter put in his, otherwise, stellar personnel file. He was made to take EXTRA sexual harrassment classes, and he was not allowed to travel overnight on company business.
I discovered this timeline after our divorce. He told me that the company was not allowing anyone to travel overnight.. as a budget measure. The person who filed the complaint was let go.... due to her having an affair with someone else at work.. or so he told me.
Now here is where it gets a bit twisted....after out divorce he took a lower paying job to be closer to his new home with the new soulmate. As a result he wanted a reduction in CS... I fought it. In the process of finding all I could about his former position, I ended up with a complete copy of his personnel file. I found the letter of reprimand, and the no travel sanctions orders. I also found his voluntary resignation letter. Which was part of what I needed to prove he was not being let go, (he told me he felt they were going to let him go). I had to subpeona his bosses to tell the court he was NOT going to be let go... etc.
He had his attorney subpeona the woman let go a few years earlier. funny thing.. she found herself working for the school board... at the same facility I was working at... we were friendly. She told his attorney that she couldn't see how her testimony would help his case...cause she was let go several years prior and did not know the latest budget conditions that his company was working with.
After all was said and done... she also told me that he acted inappropriately with various woman at work, and he was the reason she lost her job.
She never directly told me that she and he had an affair.. but other people have told me that they were inappropriately close.
All of these little and Big incidents led to his scrambling to find a replacement for his N supply... both at home and at work. In his replacing me, she took on the responsibility of keeping his ego boosted... by emotional torturing me.. and sometimes the kids. I was never fearful of him.... but her??? well that is a different story. and why I had the sheriff sitting in a corner at the convenience store where we exchanged kids.. for a few years. She let my kids know that she was afraid of me, I had made threats to her. ( I never threatened her) So she would bring her gun to kid exchange. Our state passed a law that anyone who feels threatened can shoot in self defense, at the time she said this. I went to my local sheriff and asked what I can do to protect myself and was given a bunch of guidelines of behavior for kid exchange, and advised to call the other county's sheriff for help also.
I have been divorced for 7 years, 2 years ago they moved into my county and live within 10 miles of me. She STILL goes out of her way to drive by my house...and still cyber stalks me.
I do fear for my well being... but mostly fear for my kids emotional well being.
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The above post was in response to this one xxxxx
The Narcissist at Midlife: a narcissistic decompensation
WHO am I??????
What does decompensation mean? “Worsening psychiatric condition: the deterioration of existing psychological defenses in a patient already exhibiting pathological behavior.”
Decompensation is a removal of the props/ego defenses sustaining an inflated self-esteem that was unable to 'compensate' for an injury of some kind. In other words, decompensation is likely when the narcissist’s grandiosity is not validated by reality and their Image is impossible to sustain. At midlife, with all the struggles human beings have, narcissists have feelings of hopelessness, inadequacy, desperation, and confusion. Feelings they cannot tolerate, nor process. Midlife taxes narcissistic defenses, challenging the aging individual to mature. I believe that people who may have 'undeveloped narcissistic traits' will suffer, perhaps even have a crisis. That doesn't mean they can't grow and develop---Heinz Kohut leads us to believe that growing up is a lifelong process and we can develop immature aspects our ourselves. That's the thinking about a 'normal' person's midlife crisis.
Then, there's the midlife narcissist. The Tragic man. The collapsible man. The man who appeared to be a shark, suddenly turns into a jelly fish. =msn tongue= Speaking personally, of course.
Anyone who has experienced the ‘collapsible man’ (or woman as the case may be), has been stunned by allegations that we were ‘deficient, controlling, smothering, incompetent’ any of the traits narcissists project onto other people. The midlife narcissist is someone who cannot swallow his pride and as a result, vomits all over the person closest to him or her. That would be the partner who for years, has supported them through thick-and-thin, becoming increasingly weary of the narcissist’s incessant demands. It’s not that we lack empathy or have become indifferent (though some do, it depends on the relationship), we are tired. Maybe there's a furrowed brow that 'sets 'em off', maybe our individuation triggers the narcissist's fears of abandonment. I don't know. What I do know is that all of a sudden, we are accused of being the person the narcissist cannot admit to being.
I started writing about narcissism on the Midlilfe Crisis forum back in 2003, after learning about this strange disorder called NPD (Narcissistic Personality Disorder). I had hoped, as many do, that my partner would work through his problems losing control, losing status, becoming another ordinary cog in the wheel of life; that he would eventually see that escaping reality was less enjoyable than embracing it. That he would wake up one morning with another woman in his bed and suddenly realize how much he loved and valued his family. That even if his wife was too weird for his tastes, his children needed him. This did not happen. If the midlife narcissist has not shown any signs of taking responsibility for behavior that hurts the people who loved and supported him for years, he likely won’t. He’s likely unable to face the destruction he caused, if he even realizes it (or is capable of bearing the truth long enough to see that HE is his biggest problem. Not the role he played in the family, nor the prickly personalities of family members).
It is never easy for ANYONE to tolerate the Walk of Shame when they realize what a mess they’ve made of their lives. It’s pretty darn painful for anyone to process ‘humiliation’ into ‘humility’. If your self-esteem is easily threatened by the mistakes and errors you make in life, grandiosity and self-deception become an easier way out…maybe even permanent. The ability to face other people’s disappointment and accept their willingness to forgive your mistakes is not something narcissists are capable of doing. Anytime we are forgiven, we are surrendering some of our power to BE FORGIVEN by another person holding the power To Forgive. This is an unbearable situation for a narcissist who must maintain the perception of superiority, especially if he or she sees other people as inferiors. Imagine a peon forgiving The King?
The midlife crisis with all the accompanying destruction people do to their lives when the Inner Child (or Inner Adolescent) is given free reign to act impulsively, selfishly and without consideration for others, is very hard to resolve. Depending on the degree of someone’s narcissism, they may NOT be able to face themselves after losing ‘face’ in their community. It takes a lot of self-worth and confidence to admit to having harmed other people you cared about. Still, many people are able to reconcile relationships and my assumption was that ‘everyone’ was capable or willing to do whatever they must to clean up the mess they made at midlife when our limitations stick out like a sore thumb and mortality becomes a certainty.
Oftentimes, a narcissistic injury of some kind precedes the midlife narcissist’s decompensation
In my life, my partner had suffered a major insult at work, his Star Status was sullied; any idea that he would be the next CEO of a major corporation was shattered. His own impulsive reactions had undermined his plans because at some point or other, people were unwilling to excuse his rash behavior. As other people have mentioned on WoN, my spouse was also involved in a sexual harassment suit which never went anywhere, but the threat was there. It was a constant reminder of his limitations. Those darn corporations! Imagine not being able to pat your secretary's ass!
The biggest threat though, was the damage his behavior did to his family's perceptions of him as a New-Age Fabulous Man who really ‘got’ women’s predicament in the workplace.
After his ‘breakdown’ at work, verbally abusing his boss (whoa…not a great career move, there buddy!), he lost his position in the company and was granted six-months paid leave to get himself together. Now wouldn’t you think that a normal person would avail themselves of the ‘free’ psychotherapy a company was willing to give? Wouldn’t you think that a normal person would be so grateful to a company that didn’t just FIRE his arse, but valued him enough to provide any help they could while he got himself back together?
That’s not what happened, however.
He was not grateful. He was resentful. I don’t believe at this point, that he had the capacity to process humiliation into humility. His anger increased, becoming a frightening rage at times, so furious was he at “institutions’. Institutions like corporations, religions, even marriage. Let me tell you, I was so confused at the time and tried my best to encourage him to get some help rather than relying on me. But he wouldn’t. He absolutely refused. He preferred sitting by a stream and contemplating like Siddhartha…as if the thinking that got him in this mess in the first place would get him OUT of the mess. He became more and more depressed, that much was obvious and his personality changed. He was more distant than ever and I could almost sense the ‘rage’ underneath his smile when talking to me. I was very unprepared for what was to come later…because I became the mother of all evils, the woman he feared would kill him, the person he saw as manipulative, hateful, and abusive. Which as anyone who knows me knows, is preposterous.
My concern for so many people writing about the midlife crisis is that they minimizing the danger of a partner who flips reality backwards and sees other people as ‘threats’ to the narcissist’s survival. For a narcissist you see, the False Self is the only self they know. When the False Self is exposed (or the mask slips), it IS life-threatening to a narcissist. If there is no False Self, there is no one inside…just a big dark abyss of bottomless rage and fear.
So when a partner confronts the midlife narcissist’s outrageous behavior, she might as well be pointing a machine gun in his face. That is how he perceives his loss of ‘status’ in her eyes. It IS life-threatening.
Forgiveness? Yea, you are likely willing to forgive. Understanding? Yea, you are likely to understand. But if someone MUST maintain power and control, your forgiveness and understanding are threats to their superiority. I remember saying to my husband, “Whatever has passed, has passed. Let’s work on our marriage. I forgive you.” And instead of tears and gratitude, he nearly bit my head off. “Forgive me?” he ranted. “I should be forgiving YOU; and I don’t!”
Bizarre. Reality turned backwards and we, the closest people to the narcissist, are the ones they must destroy. Would that they destroyed the False Self instead. But then, I don’t know. Maybe there really isn’t a wounded child inside just waiting to come out and play?
My questions to everyone (if you’re still reading this epistle, ha!) are these:
1): Was there a narcissistic injury of some kind preceding the midlife crisis?
2): Were you afraid for your life?
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:o :o :o :o :o :o :o :o
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/45389913/ns/us_news-crime_and_courts/t/cops-mom-love-triangle-kills-kids-wounds-then-kills-self/
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If your sick means ill, yes. A very ill, disturbed, desperate person. Nothing funny or amusing in that situation.
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Horrible. What a disaster..OMG I am scared. The needless waste of life. The innocent victims. I will say a prayer for them. :'(
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Wow! That is pretty scary...So sad and horrific. All the families that got hurt needlessly.
I have to admit...I kinda worry about this kind of thing as well happening.
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It is accounts like this that get me a little irritated when adultery is referred to as an affair. Like an affair is something romantic, suggesting there are connotations of love. It is nothing to do with love. Its dirty, messy and sick.
At best, people get hurt and broken, children damaged. At worst, people commit suicide and some people even get murdered.
honour
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Great point Honour. I'm going to try and avoid that word entirely.
People sorely underestimate the level of craziness in these situations. My dear friend is most unfortunately, in my opinion, having an MLC. Her husband caught her in bed with another man, in that man's home...the other man's wife was away.
My friend's husband is someone I consider to be extremely kind, calm, shy even. When he found them however, he exploded, sending the other man to the hospital with a severly broken nose. My friend was injured slightly trying to break them up. I think that actually, it's a blessing it ended there and worse things didn't happen.
I don't think it matters if someone is the LBS, the adultere or adulteree (for lack of a better)...emotions run high, too high to expect people to keep their heads. The situation referenced in this post is extreme but it isn't the first time, nor will it be the last. Sadly.
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Hey Ann do you think i would refer to that as funny....yes sick means ill........what type of person do you think i am or what type of person are you to even think that of me.....you don't know me and i don't like the way that post came across,in fact i feel and felt insulted it !!!!!!!!!!!!!!! >:( >:( >:(
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OMG not sure how someone can do that to sweet innocent children! So sad
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Hey Ann do you think i would refer to that as funny....yes sick means ill........what type of person do you think i am or what type of person are you to even think that of me.....you don't know me and i don't like the way that post came across,in fact i feel and felt insulted it !!!!!!!!!!!!!!! >:( >:( >:(
I don't think she meant to insult you, she was just clarifying the post.
OMG not sure how someone can do that to sweet innocent children! So sad
It is a very sad situation, especially for the kids.
It is accounts like this that get me a little irritated when adultery is referred to as an affair. Like an affair is something romantic, suggesting there are connotations of love. It is nothing to do with love. Its dirty, messy and sick.
I don't know that an affair implies love. The definition is " A romantic and sexual relationship, sometimes one of brief duration, between two people who are not married to each other." Romance is not the same as love, it's much more illusional. Sounds like adultery to me. People in affairs often believe they are in love at the time. But yes, they are destructive to other relationships, although people involved don't always want to acknowledge this at the time (or even later).
I think this article speaks for itself for how messy things can get. And how sad.
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This was posted by o/w who married the man in MLC.....she as been stalking the LBS on another forum ive asked the LBS if she minded me posting this on here just so we can all see how these o/w don't have a clue..........this o/w met the married man on a internet site and fell madly in love before they had even met each other :o :o :o :o :o :o :o :o the married man in question as completely abandoned his wife and 2 sons and as nothing to do with them............o/w is that insecure she stalks the LBS reading everything she writes and repeats little bits to her new married husband ::) ::) ::) ::) but only what suits her or benefits her ive posted the reply from o/w below ??? ??? ??? xxxxxxxxxxxx
I did not get on here to gloat. I respect the women on this site and the purpose it serves. It is a wonderful site for women to share and support. However, it has also been used to publicly trash me. One thing that was posted was completely true. You dont know me from Adam. Maybe some REAL truths will help in the process. I have overlooked all the trashing and untruths that have been posted, but when it was implied that I was not a good mother because I would leave my kids at Christmas, I decided it was time to share some truth darts of my own. I have raised 5 children (2 of my own, 2 step children, and a nephew after loosing my sister to cancer). I consider them all my very own. I will spend Christmas Eve celebrating with my kids and grandkids, which is our normal tradition. We will then take a short nap and drive through the night to spend Christmas dinner with my in-laws. After visiting a few days, we will go to south Illinois to see my Dad and I will be back home to ring in the New Year with my kids and grandkids. A few other truths, my husband doesnt dye his hair and wears it short not long. Also, it has been mocked that he 'found God" in all of this. Say what you will, but he is in church every Sunday including bible study. He has a very close friendship with our pastor and talks with him on a regular basis. I do not think you are to blame for everything he was going through, and I dont think I am responsible for the changes he has made. Only God could change a man the way he has changed. I wish ALL of you a Merry Christmas. I hope that however the situation turns out for each of you, that you have peace and happiness and dont carry bitterness in your heart. Respectfully.........kss
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She was taking all that was being said so very personally; not realizing down the line, she IS going to go through the SAME heartache that was dealt out by her former affair partner who is now her MLC husband.
He is trying to "fix" and "bargain away" ALL of his issues by "finding God"; this has been done more out of guilt than anything else; but if he doesn't target the deeper issue within himself that drove him to abandon his family; and marry his affair partner, once this raises its ugly head once again; it will be worse than his former bout of crisis.
On the other hand, this OW doesn't realize that she's adding fuel to a fire already burning within her husband when she "feeds" him these bits and pieces of what she thinks is useful information; she only increases his guilt and shame; and this, in turn increases his disrespect for her; as it shows her as vindictive, and immature.
She doesn't understand that people are going to talk no matter what she says or does; yet, on the other hand; the more she talks, the less she hears, if that makes sense..so the best thing to do is to STOP answering her; and let her twist in the wind; while she figures some of this out on her own.
Bear in mind NOT everything needs an answer, and you choose your battles carefully; IF you choose to engage. She is not important in a greater scheme of things; and I would not waste my time or energy on her; simply because I know she's so intent on being "right" rather than keep an open mind and learn something new.
One can deny and justify what they are doing/have done all they want; but the fact is, BOTH people played their part in destroying a marriage and family...and consequences WILL be served up in spades down the line.
This is NOT the first time I've seen an OW or OM try and defend themselves, and it won't be the last time this will happen.
Each person will answer to the Lord for all they have done as individuals; and since you can't control what each one does; you learn to take many things with a grain of salt; and let the rest go.
I once knew a wonderful lady who was her husband's former OW; and I watched her as she dealt with a second round of MLC; I admired her because she was transparent, honest, and forthcoming in her postings in spite of the flames I saw people direct at her.
But she wasn't "justifying" her actions, like what I'm seeing in your response here; she actually was a reformed OW; and believe it or not, her husband did, indeed, cheat on her, as he had once cheated with her.
What this current woman really doesn't understand is that what one will sow, they will reap; and though it may not come right at the moment; in time, it will.
I suspect her husband is reaping very hard in guilt and shame, trying to hide it behind "religion"...yet, God is NOT mocked; He is very clear on what happens when you sin; you will reap the wages of death for your sins even though you ask Him for forgiveness...it is the natural way of things.
And this death is NOT always physical, it is emotional, mental and spiritual within various aspects.
I would not give her too much thought; she has made her bed; now she will lie it; and it will be a very hard bed, indeed.
These are my thoughts. :)
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Found this article some of it relates to my h since his MLC and some to the o/w...............and it can also relate to how the Affair lasts long xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
HEARTLESS (http://www.heartless-b!tc#es.com/rants/manipulator/emotional_abuse.shtml) the link to the article
Emotional Abusers
by Natalie P.
Most people have had it happen: at some point in our lives we find ourselves manipulated or "guilted" into doing something we didn't want to do. We end up angry at ourselves for caving in, and resenting the other person for pressuring us. However there are other kinds of emotional manipulation - covert abusive and hurtful techniques that even the most stalwart Heartless b*tch can fall prey to, that undermine a person's self-confidence, and may even make you feel like you are going crazy. The thing is, while true Heartless b*tches would NEVER tolerate physical abuse, they can get blindsided by emotional abuse, and not even realize it's happening - especially if it is coming from someone they trust and love. Like physical abuse, emotional abuse becomes a vicious circle that chips away at your self-confidence, making it harder and harder to leave. If you are in a relationship where you have a sick sense that SOMETHING is wrong, but somehow it's always YOUR fault, and you find yourself always tring to "fix" things, this article may be for you.
Emotional abusers are very insidious - some of them are much harder to spot than others, because they mingle their abuse in between acts of generosity, and often employ emotionally manipulative tactics, and passive-aggressive behavior. Not all emotional abusers overtly belittle and verbally harangue their partners - some are much more perfidious and as such, their partners may not realize that the source of their distress and an unease over the relationship has been coming from abuse for quite some time. The longer a woman remains under the grip of an emotional abuser, the more she will start to question herself, her actions and her beliefs. It is the abuser's goal to make her believe that she deserves his cruelty and that only through her actions can she make it stop. It is his intent to get her to feel that she is the cause of any relationship problems, and that his (abusive) behavior is simply a response to her, and therefore acceptable. It is true, that only through her actions can she make it stop - she must have the courage to leave the relationship and avoid further contact with the abuser.
Abusers, physical or emotional, are abusive because of their own self-hate and internal issues - not because of anything their partner did. No amount of work or attempting to please will stop an abuser from abusing. They have to be willing to recognize and actually work on their own issues before they can stop inflicting cruelty on the people who love them. In many cases, they don't even love their partners, because they can't even love themselves, and don't feel that they deserve love, even though they crave it. Abusers may genuinely feel bad that they committed another act of abuse, not because they have any real compassion for the person they hurt, but because they get angry at themselves for "screwing up" again. This drives them further into self-loathing, and further into a cycle of abusive behavior.
It is common for men who are "called" on their abusive behavior to blame the woman, and claim SHE was the abuser. He may even point to his abusive childhood as proof that he is just an innocent victim. The truth of the matter is that abusers generally DO have a history of abuse stemming from their childhood, with emotionally abusive and/or physically abusive parents. However, it is important to note that though women can become abusers, MOST OFTEN (because of the way we are socialized and the power setups in society), if there has been no *successful* theraputic intervention, MEN from abusive families become "ABUSERS", and WOMEN who grew up in abusive families become "Abuse VICTIMS".
Like the alcoholic, an abuser must admit his behavior to himself and others, and seek help. Unfortunately, not all therapy works, and not all people who go into therapy are ready or willing to do the personal work necessary to get better and eliminate their destructive patterns. As such, abusers are not safe people - even after they enter therapy. It can take years of therapy to unravel and undo the damage and self-hate that has driven someone to abuse. During that time, the abuser may actually get worse before his behavior improves, if it changes at all. It is quite common for deeply disturbed people who enter therapy to initially use the therapy to project their problems on everyone else and point out the character flaws of those around them, rather than face their own internal demons. Until they can be honest with themselves and the therapist, the therapy will accomplish nothing. For a person who has spent a lifetime of lying and hating themselves, honesty does not come easily.
More disturbingly, some abusers can and DO go into therapy as a ploy - to make it LOOK like they are actually working on their own behavior, and accepting responsibility for their actions, when, in fact, the real motive is to arm themselves with distortions of the therapist's words and tools, in an effort to heighten and increase the psychological warfare. The bottom line, is that you can't trust an abuser, the same way you can't trust the married man who is having an affair and keeps promising to leave his wife.
The more subtle forms of emotional abuse can be the hardest to escape from, because the gaps between the loving, caring behavior and the emotional cruelty can span several weeks or months. However, someone who is nice and caring, and helpful for 2 or 3 months at a time, but then deliberately does or says something very emotionally devastating and cruel to a partner is no better than someone who does the same nice things but then PUNCHES his partner once every few months. The pain, the insecurity, the uncertainty, and the heartache are the same. The bruises and the welts are on the inside instead of the outside, and they take far longer to heal. While someone may be emotionally blindsided by major episodes of emotional cruelty, and may even recognize it as abuse, abused partners often "overlook" the subtle everyday criticisms, "chain yanking", and emotional blackmail that are woven into the fabric of their relationship, accepting (or denying) it as just part of a "relationship". Unfortunately, it's part of a very UNHEALTHY relationship.
It can leave the woman wondering if the pain is worth the good times, and even wondering if this is as good as it gets? What if there isn't anything better? When he distorts the past and blames you for the relationship problems, you may even feel like you are going crazy, and he will certainly do everything he can to imply that you ARE. The truth is, there IS something better. You don't have to put up with a relationship where you are treated poorly, with disrespect, or emotional cruelty, no matter how infrequent those acts are. And of course, when you do get upset, the abuser will infer that you are overreacting, or "too sensitive", so it adds to the confusion and hurt that you may feel.
What are the signs and symptoms of Emotional Abuse?
A common misconception is that emotional abuse has to take the form of a partner yelling over every little thing, belittling or constantly criticizing a partner. Other forms of emotional abuse, can however, be just as damaging, and far less overt. They can include being disrespectful, discourteous, rude, condescending, patronizing, critical, judgemental, "joking" insults, lying, repeatedly "forgetting" promises and agreements, betrayal of trust, "setting you up", and "revising" history.
To outsiders, abusers often appear as decent, successful, sensitive, calm and nondescript. To their families, they are often controlling, self-absorbed, hypercritical, compulsive, childish and mean-spirited. Most of abusers are actually BOTH. It is the disparity between the one they love and the one that harms them that keeps the woman confused. He may intersperse episodes of abuse with words of love, telling her that she is "the best thing that has ever happened" to him, and that he wants to start treating her that way, confusing her further. She keeps hoping that if she does enough, if she gives enough, he will stop hurting her and the loving, caring side of him will prevail. Unfortunately, this is a fallacy that often keeps the woman in the relationship for far too long. Ask yourself: Do you have a drawer full of "apology" jewellery, or a closet full of "apology" clothes?
One of the most difficult things about identifying and leaving someone who is a psychological and emotional abuser, is that the REALLY successful abusers are highly intelligent and hide their abuse incredibly well. They may have shelves of filled with psychology books; many are well-read and very well spoken. They know how to twist and manipulate language and people. They present an exterior of calm, rational self-control, when in reality, they have no internal control of their own pain and chaotic self-hate, so they try to control others, and drive others to LOSE control. If an abuser can cause YOU to lose control, it proves how healthy HE is, so he can say, explicitly, or implicitly (it's amazing how sighs, and rolling of the eyes can accomplish as much as words), "There you go again, losing it, crying and yelling. I'm not the one who needs therapy, *you* are." Unfortunately, if an outsider sees the abuse at all, all they see is an outburst from you, NOT the abuse that triggered it. It may make you feel as if you have had all your lifelines withdrawn, as if you are going crazy, because nobody believes you that this charming, "nice", helpful, successful man could be so incredibly psychologically cruel and deliberately hurtful.
Abusers play the pushme-pull-you game threatening to withdraw their affections, dropping statements out of the blue intended to destabilize. This has the effect of making their partners insecure and uncertain, but that plays right into the abuser's hand as he then can accuse the partner of being "too needy". Ploys such as casually talking about how he's thinking of taking a job in another city are one such example of destabilizing talk. In this kind of case, it doesn't start with any discussion of your relationship, or what might happen to it - he talks only of the cool job opportunity, with no recognition of the impact it might have on you, your relationship, or your family.
An emotional abuser may make fun of his partner, or make subtle or not-so-subtle disparaging remarks about her while with other friends, and encourage the friends to make disparaging remarks. He will then be sure to tell her about the jokes they made and act surprised when she doesn't find them "funny". He may even tell her that she is overreacting and that it was "all in fun" and that no harm was meant by the "joking".
Not all emotional abusers criticize their partners directly - sometimes it can be as simple as constantly criticizing how someone keeps a kitchen, or complaining about the mess in the house, or continuous grumbling about the laundry, or complaining about the noise and mess the kids make. He will make her think it is her job to keep him happy, and imply that household things are contributing to his unhappiness and bad temper.
An emotional abuser will seem to encourage his partner to grow, to develop new skills and expand her horizons, but then will do things to impede or prevent that progress. He will mope and sigh about how little time she has for him now that she is working more or taking that course, or back in school. Or, he will "encourage" her to advance herself, but refuse to provide any additional assistance around the house/family to ease her workload, effectively making it impossible for her to take that course or job. If he DOES provide assistance, he will let her know how HARD it is for him, and how MUCH he is doing for her, every step of the way... he will play the "sad puppy" to the hilt, trying to get her to feel guilty for the burdens she has put on him.
An Emotional abuser will try to make his partner responsible for his happiness. Either through direct comments, or indirect implications, the abuser will let his partner know that he is not happy, that it is somehow her fault, and that she must fix it. The problem is, no matter what she does, it will never be enough, and it won't ultimately make him happy.
The abuser may take this behavior to an extreme, insisting that he is the best partner or relationship she will ever have, the only one who can truly love her (despite all her faults!), and that if she doesn't live up to his expectations, he will leave the relationship. Since abuse is really about control, the abuser knows he can have the upper hand in the relationship if he can keep her uncertain and insecure.
Emotional abusers overcompensate for their self-hate with a warped kind of narcissism. They genuinely believe that YOU SHOULD know how they feel, and know what to do to make them happy. AND that you should be willing to do those things without having to be asked or told. They believe that they DESERVE to be treated better, to be put first, to be given preferential treatment. He will expect you to read his mind. He lives by the "if you really loved me, you'd KNOW how I feel" game, and of course will punish you for not being telepathic. If confronted with the unreasonable nature of this behavior, the abuser will blame his partner for his lack of communication - it will always be her fault that he couldn't tell her what he needed or wanted. He will project HIS behavior on her, and insist that he couldn't talk to her about what was bothering him because she was too intense, or critical, or angry, or judgemental, or needy. Don't buy it. Those are HIS issues. Not yours.
And speaking of narcissism, the emotional abuser will be envious and resentful if YOU get more attention than HE does in a social setting. He will likely punish you for it by one of any number of techniques: ignoring you, sulking, disappearing for hours, flirting heavily with someone else, or leaving the party or function without notifying you.
Emotional abusers expect the rest of the household to live by their waking, sleeping and eating schedules. If his schedule is interrupted or disturbed, or if the partner chooses not to follow the same patterns, the abuser feels justified in "punishing" the offender. This can include the full battery of emotional abuse and passive-aggressive tactics - because in the abuser's mind, the partner or household member "deserves" it for not caring enough about him to live by his schedules and activity calendar.
Emotional abusers may use punishment tactics like leaving (without a word to you), a party or function that you both went to. They will have socially plausible, pathos-laden excuses for their unannounced departure, like they couldn't find you, or they were tired and wanted to go home. However, the REAL reason they left without a word, was to punish you; to wind you up, to get you worried about them, and ultimately, to have you feel guilty for not paying enough attention to them. When you confront an abuser on the concept of COURTESY around these sorts of things, the abuser will either apologize weakly, (but the damage has been done), or insist that your distress over his behavior is overreacting.
Emotional abusers will remind you of your flaws under the guise of trying to be "helpful" or sensitive. He may make comments like, "You seem unhappy with your body" - even though you have made no comments about your body image or otherwise, or "You are running late again - you never can get anywhere on time", or "There doesn't seem to be much point in planning things with you." All are comments intended to unbalance and remind you of what he perceives to be your weaknesses.
Emotional abusers will try to isolate you from family and friends. There are several tactics that may be employed. If he can't manipulate your friends, he will either find reasons to denigrate them or will be "uninterested" in doing things with you AND your friends. He may find them "boring". You may find yourself caught in a double-bind where he "encourages" you to go out with *your* friends, refusing any invitation to participate, but then mopes that you never spend enough time with HIM. Over time, you may find yourself isolated from your friends by virtue of the demands on your time that he makes. You may also find him VERY upset if he finds out that you have been talking to a close friend or family member about him and/or your relationship with him - especially if that person is likely to tell you he's behaving like an ass.
One emotional abuser went so far as to "set up" his wife so that she would isolate herself. He did it by "reminding" her of her "shyness", and how socially backward she was. He did this under the guise of "being sensitive" to her and the areas she "needed to work on". Then he would offer to "help" her by suggesting she come along to a party or social function with him. Prior to the function he would again "help" her by briefing her on people attending the party, so that she could "have something to talk about" with them. As part of his tactic, he told his wife distortions or half-truths so that she would make social faux-pas at the function. If she ever questioned him, he would insist that SHE must have heard him wrong, and it must have been HER nervousness that made her forget or screw up. The man was a "pillar of the community", so to his friends, she looked like a bumbling (and even insensitive) fool, and they "couldn't figure out why a man like him was with a woman like HER." Combined with his subtle denigration of her friends and family, she gradually isolated herself by not attending social functions, and cutting off relationships with her support network.
Instead of "lying" to a partner, an emotional abuser may "forget" significant promises he made to his partner - especially if forgetting that promise will hurt her. He may also "forget" things so that he can let her know that things that are important to her are NOT important to him. This tactic can take the form of making a special dinner for her, containing shrimp when he has known for years that she is allergic to shellfish, so she can't eat it, or buying a feather comforter for their bed, when he knows she is allergic to feathers. He will claim that his lapse was due to "forgetting", when in fact, it was a passive-aggressive ploy to trick the partner into believing he was doing "something nice", get her hopes up, and then bring her down with the fact that she could not enjoy this "gift" of his after all... It is a passive-aggressive slap-in-the-face.
Emotional abusers expect more from their partners than they are willing to put into a relationship. The problem is, no matter how much the partner gives, it will never be enough, and the abuser will expect more - because the relationship isn't about love for the abuser, it's about control.
The more independent a partner becomes, the more abusive the abuser will be, because he sees he is losing control of his partner.
Emotional abusers expect to be forgiven for their "mistakes" (otherwise known as abuse) but are unable to forgive their partners for legitimate mistakes - and will continue to "punish" their partners for those mistakes, long after apologies and restitution have been made.
Emotional abusers expect their partners to change for them. Unfortunately, the changes the partner makes will never be enough - the abuser will always want more.
The abuser says it's not completely his fault, or she pushes his buttons, or that something she did triggered him to do or say something hurtful or damaging to her.
Emotional abuse can take the form of him insisting that she isn't spending enough time with him, forcing her to "prove her love" by booking extra time and adjusting her life and her schedule around him, so that he can then reject any suggestions she has for activities, and act disinterested when they do have time together.
When she tries to make plans with him, the abuser will remind her in a condescending way of how poor she is at planning and how he doesn't believe that the plans will work out. Over time, comments like this insidiously undermine her self-confidence, by telling repeatedly that she is untrustworthy. Her untrustworthiness becomes yet another excuse for him to "punish" her with abusive language or actions.
Another emotional abuse tactic is to reject activities that she suggests and then do them with other people - letting her know that he is doing them with other people - establishing control and implying that she is not worthy of doing the activities with him, but other people are.
An emotional abuser will often use condescension as an effective tool in manipulating and hurting his partner. In expressing his own internal anger, he targets his partner. But because she has done nothing to "deserve" his anger at this point (or any point!), he may be rude, brutally inconsiderate, condescending, patronizing, or even use the "silent treatment" to get her upset or angry. When his partner gets upset, and an argument ensues, he can then express his anger at her, and blame the fact that she "got angry" at him, for the whole argument - even though HE started it. Don't let him convince you that your anger at his disrespect and emotional cruelty, is somehow wrong or abusive to him. That is part of his control and escalating cycle of abuse technique.
As part of this "control" technique, the abuser may "set up" his partner, pushing as many buttons as possible to get the partner to lose control by breaking down in tears or getting angry or yelling. If you raise your voice, he will insist that YOU are the abuser. Don't buy it, and don't believe it. While there might be better ways to handle the situation, (more easily enacted if you weren't emotionally involved with this person), chances are that he has inflicted so much psychological warfare that you have been backed into an emotional corner, and are reacting in self-defense. Emotional reactions in self-defense to an abusive situation do NOT make YOU an "abuser".
One of the more subtle but effective ways an abuser can "wind" his partner up is by invalidating/rejecting/showing no compassion for the feelings of his partner - especially in conjunction with a deliberate act of malice that was designed to upset or hurt the partner. He will claim the act was either "accidental" or intended to help the partner. He will try to tell his partner that it is NOT OK to feel angry or hurt or upset by his actions - or that if she DOES feel those things, her "feelings are her own" - that he has no responsibility towards repairing any emotional damage he may have caused. As part of this tactic he may pay lip-service to personal responsibility by saying he "takes responsibility" for his actions, but then make no offer to do anything about the resulting emotional pain, or say that there is nothing he can do to repair the damage or make restitution. If she tries to get him to do anything to make restitution he will use the word "blame" as if it is a dirty word, and accuse her of trying to lay "blame" on him for his actions. This is the functional equivalent of someone using a board to "fan" you and when he "accidentally" hits you over the head, telling you that he was just trying to HELP and that if you feel PAIN, well, your feelings are your own, and he can't be responsible for YOUR feelings, and there is nothing HE can do about it now... Non-abusers who genuinely ACCIDENTALLY hurt a loved one's feelings, do not refuse to nurture those feelings - they help repair the emotional damage, and they don't repeatedly make the same "mistakes" over and over with their partners.
The flip side of this, of course, is that emotional abusers want to reap the emotional rewards for being nice and doing "good" things for their partners - they want the affirmation, appreciation and attention they feel they deserve when they do something positive for a partner.
The truth about responsibility for one's feelings is that if you love and trust someone - if you open your heart to the love and caring, you also open it to the potential for hurt. Yes, in the strictest sense of the word, no one can make you feel anything - you choose to let them affect you for good or bad. But very few people, (except perhaps those with borderline personality disorder), can be completely "unfeeling" when dealing with someone they care deeply for. Most people are unable to open their hearts up completely to love and be able to "let" only good things affect their feelings and not the bad. To disconnect yourself from feeling hurt and pain is to disconnect yourself from feeling love and joy. When you open your heart to someone, you are granting them your trust as well as your love. You are trusting them to respect and honor your love. If someone abuses you by violating your trust, you are not wrong for trusting - THEY are wrong for breaking that trust and using it to hurt you.
Emotional abusers have huge double standards. What is ok for them, is NOT ok for their partners. I.e. THEY are allowed to get angry - their partners are not.
Abusers will blame their partner for "allowing" or encouraging them to be abusive. In as much as a refusal to capitulate can trigger an abusive attack, any sign of "guilty" feelings or weakness in a partner is like blood in the water for sharks, when it comes to abusers. Of course, according to the abuser, it is up to the woman not to provide him with the temptation to abuse, by changing HER behavior.
If caught in a lie or exposed in a situation where he can't immediately manipulate his partner into taking the rap, he may try to go for the sympathy ploy, in an attempt deflect the situation away from his bad behavior. For example, one abuser caught in the middle of a lie, blamed his lie on "bad memory", almost started crying, and began bemoaning what he would do if his memory was going, because his whole job depended on being able to remember lots of details. All of a sudden, the situation turned from him being caught in a lie, to his partner being expected to feel sorry for him because of his "bad memory"... Other deflection techniques he may use when his behavior is exposed, are:
-to bring up stories of childhood/parental abuse (watch these, they are the same old stories each time, and if you listen closely, you may see that his behaviors closely match those childhood abuse patterns...)
-to bring up troubles and things bothering him at work
-to bring up his hurt and "pain" over something YOU did ages ago, and have long-since paid for.
-"missing" a grown child who has left the home, or children he abandoned and his former partner "won't let him" visit (big wonder why...).
If you DO manage to get an abuser to a relationship counsellor, (something many abusers will insist you two don't need - he'll insist that you "can work things out yourselves..."), the abuser will work to ensure that the counsellor sees HIM as the mistreated partner, or at the very least, that his behaviors are one-time incidents rooted in just cause. These kinds of emotional abusers are often highly intelligent and manipulative. They will manipulate and lie to the counsellor, pinning the onus back on YOU to change your behavior for HIM. You may find it very frustrating and difficult. Even if he can't avoid having his trust-breaking behavior exposed, he may find a way to manipulate the situation so that his "reasons" for breaking trust were because of YOUR inability to meet his needs. Beware. Sometimes counsellors buy into that stuff, and you end up getting a double-whammy.
Emotional abusers will hide their abuse in acts that they can claim were done to "try and help" their partner. For example, taking a partner's kids away camping for the weekend, ostensibly, "to give her some time off", but without phoning and checking with her first, "forgetting" she had made plans with them already, and deliberately making sure the kids didn't have time to pack up and be properly equipped. This is designed to get her upset, but have it look like, on the surface, he was "just trying to be helpful and she got upset at me." Similarly, an abuser might do some of your laundry "as a favor" to you, without your asking, and then shrink or stain your clothes. When you get upset about the fact that not only did he do this without asking, but it caused damage, an abuser will imply that your anger is invalid and unwarranted, that you are ungrateful, (he was just trying to help!), and that there is nothing he can do about it now. The abuser learns and goes for the most sensitive "buttons" on his partner, so that he can get a response out of her. The abuser seeks ways to violate her boundaries through calculated "acts of kindess", and may resort to using her children, her personal belongings, her friends, or her personal space as tools.
In addition to favors which cause damage, the emotional abuser may do legitimately helpful "favors" for his partner, but again, ones that the partner never asked for. The problem is that the abuser never gives freely or unconditionally. He expects some kind of recompense in return, often without stating what that expectation is. This then gives him another opportunity to feel justified in punishing his partner when she doesn't live up to his unstated expectations of gratitude and reciprocation. When his partner stands up for herself, you may hear him using phrases like, "everything I did, I did for her", and "after all I did for her, THIS is how she treats me!". Abusers will often complain (especially to others outside the relationship) about how unappreciated they are/were, and how they gave and gave and gave, and got so little in return...
Another destabilizing tactic that the abuser may use is to reneg on a committment, or on a stated belief, catching you off-guard, possibly even putting you in a position where he can accuse you of "hurting" him because you didn't know his beliefs/principles/goals had changed. He will use the excuse that he "changed his mind" as a tool for keeping you off-balance. If you question his about-face, he will accuse you of not allowing him the right to change his mind. While people legitimately DO change their minds about things, abusers will do it often, and without warning, with maximum rug-yanking effect for their partners.
Emotional abusers will use the "mind change" tactic to set a partner up in a no-win situation. No matter what the partner does, the abuser will find a way to find fault with it - if the cat craps on his bed and she doesn't clean it up, she is uncaring and selfish. If she DOES clean it up, then she was invading his personal space.
Emotional abusers encourage their partners to do "self-indulgent" things that the abuser will later resent them for. It may be as simple as encouraging her to go out dancing with her friends, or to go visit her mother, or it may be as serious as encouraging her to take a job or go back to school. In many cases, his "encouragement" is part of the "if she really loves me" test - if she does what he encourages her to do, she is diverting her attention from him, and he will feel justified in hurting her as a result.
Once someone starts to detach from an abuser and refuses to play the games, he may go for the sympathy ploy. If his partner doesn't capitulate and refuses to pander to his emotional blackmail, she will be accused of being cold and heartless, in the hopes that THIS escalation of emotional blackmail will hurt her further.
Emotional abusers often display different personalities to other people in their lives - watch for a completely changed demeanor, behavior, body language and even tone of voice, when they are at work, or with a circle of friends. The abuser may claim that this is just different "facets" of his personality, but in fact, it is a warning sign that he puts on different personnas to suit the situation, and you will never know which one is the REAL person. It belies huge insecurities - the way children try to act like the crowd they are with in order to be accepted - and is an indication of the emotional immaturity of the typical abuser.
Emotional abusers, like physical abusers, can be exceedingly charming -that's why it's so hard for the victim of abuse - their friends only see the charming side, and don't see the discourtesy, lies, meanness, condescension and rudeness that happens inside the relationship.
Because abuse is about power and control, the abuser will often try to become "buddies" or friends with his partner's closest friends. If her female friends are attracted to him at all, he may even try to prey on that, so that if she has a conflict or a problem with him, she doesn't have a close supportive friend to turn to. Abusers will use things like stories of childhood abuse or trauma, lost friends or the death of relatives to get her friends to feel sorry for him. He will play up the "sensitive guy" role. If he can cozy up to her best friend, the friend will feel caught in the middle - which is exactly what the abuser wants - to cut off his partner from external support. If he can, he may even flirt heavily with her friends, have an affair with one of her friends, or become pals with one or more of her former friends as another way to hurt and attempt to shame her. As much as possible, he will perpetrate this behavior in front of his partner, so that he is exhibiting his control - going for maximum hurt to her through a blatant display of compassionless disrespect.
The emotional abuser often plays pushme-pullyou. He will indicate that his interest in his partner is waning, and when she begins to start separating from him, he will become attentive and interested again. He may even use sex as a weapon against her - by telling her that she isn't paying enough attention to him, spending enough time with him, or isn't initiating sex enough, but then will reject her advances when she tries to initiate.
Abusers are completely self-centered. They blame other people and seldom take responsibility for their own actions.
Abusers are self-righteous. They find ways to justify their behavior. As a result, he always focuses on her problems, and insists that she change to make the relationship better.
Emotional abusers hate apologizing - and if they DO apologize, they will only do the same thing again. They know this, and will even try to make it seem like any expectation of an apology is really an attempt to "blame" them. (Again, "blame" being that dirty word). For example, "You just want me to say I'm sorry and promise I'll never do it again, so that when I screw up again, you can point a finger and blame me and get angry with me and say, "See? You did it again and you promised you wouldn't!"" This is called "projection" - abusers do it all the time. They project THEIR issues onto their partner, and try to make it their partner's problem. They make it sound like the partner's is somehow wrong or attempting to set them up for "blame", for wanting some sign of compassion and remorse, and an indication of willingness to work on the behavior problem.
If you do get an apology out of an abuser, it is a quick-fix, not a long-term solution, because they will do the same behavior over again - that is why they are often so resistant to apologizing and saying that they will work on the behavior - because they KNOW they will repeat it at another time.
Abusers may, early in the relationship, in a moment of "opening up", tell you of their abusive or manipulative nature. At the time you may think that this is some kind of indication of a willingness to work on their past problems, or that somehow it will be different for you. In fact, what they are looking for is absolution in advance for behavior they will later inflict on you. They may even go so far as to say, "I told you this is how I am."
Emotional abusers often grow OLD without growing UP. They are emotionally stunted and immature. Emotional abusers are self-preoccupied, and demonstrate a passive-aggressive interpersonal style.
Emotional abusers may do seemingly loving, kind and considerate things, that actually convey a subtle message that you aren't "perfect", that you aren't quite good enough. For example, it may seem very sweet that he rubs cream into your hands before bed, but then you remember that he also didn't like you touching him if your hands were the least bit dry or rough - it "hurt" his skin, so you always had to have hand cream to make your hands soft before you touched him. Sadly, the REAL message behind the seemingly loving act of rubbing cream in your hands is that you aren't perfect, you aren't living up to his needs and expectations, NOT that he loves you... In their own subversive way, these "messages", couched in "loving" acts, eat away and erode your sense of self-worth.
Emotional abusers deny that they have any problems and/or project their problems onto their partner, often accusing their partners of abuse - especially AFTER the partner has woken up and called the abuser on his behavior. At this point he will be sure to tell as many *mutual* friends as will listen, that she is controlling and abusive to him, in an attempt to further undermine any support she might get.
In order to gain sympathy, the abuser will share convincing stories of his burdens, including stories of how he was abused as a child, or how he witnessed his mother being assaulted by his father.
An emotional abuser demonstrates little capacity to appreciate the perspective of another person when his own interests are at stake. Emotional abusers often flip between being a martyr and a self-absorbed a$$hole - there is no middle ground, and they use the martyrdom as an excuse for their behavior when they are in self-absorbed a$$hole mode ("I was just doing something for *me*. I'm tired of you making me feel bad about myself."). However, that "something" often winds up breaking a relationship agreement, a promise, or involves him being condescending, ignoring, or rude.
An emotional abuser sees himself as a blameless victim, and denies his own provocative behavior, even going so far as to bemoan the fact that a partner left him, or threw him out, "after all the things I did for her"... The emotional abuser will play up the "pathos" in an attempt to garner sympathy, all the while, continuing to stalk his ex, making jokes about things he could do to upset her, and invading her personal space and boundaries at social functions.
Like physical abusers, emotional abusers will often stalk their former partners. The stalker's objective is often to control her through cultivating fear rather than making direct or specific threats, or confronting the her. Sometimes this stalking can take the form of simply moving into the same neighborhood as a former partner, and letting her know, through friends, where he is living. His move into her neighborhood will be "justified" by him for some specious reason, but the reality is, he can't let go and is still trying to control her and inflict pain on her after the relationship is over. This is a subtle form of terrorism, because abuse victims are often very emotionally (if not physically) afraid of their abusers once they wake up. She will know that she might run into him at the local convenience store, gas station, supermarket, or on a walk. He is, in effect, pissing on her boundaries (something abusers have no respect for) and trying to make them his own. He may even begin dating someone who lives very close to her, so that he has an excuse to go by her house, or park his car nearby.
Ex-partners of abusers will often express fear of their abuser, and will have no desire to be anywhere near the abuser. On the other hand, the abuser may try to appear as if he is calm, rational, and still supportive of his ex-partner, despite the fact that he will also express the opinion that he believes she is quite unstable. He will make statements such as saying that he "bears her no ill-will", etc., but then will show no respect for her boundaries or her requests for him to stay away from her. The abuser will still inquire with friends as to how she is doing, implying that his inquiry is because he cares about her - he does care - about retaining those last vestiges of control, even after the breakup. What he really wants to know is if she is suffering or doing badly, because that feeds his sick ego. He feels best when he puts other people in as much pain as he is in.
People in relationships have conflicts. But there is a right way and a wrong way to resolve them, and no matter what the other person does, no matter what a person's "issues" are, abuse is the wrong way. Emotional cruelty and abuse are choices. A man can choose to be abusive or choose to be non-abusive; he can choose to be honest and straightforward, or passive-aggressive and covert, and no matter how hard a man tries to blame his partner, there is no justification for abuse.
If you are a victim of emotional abuse, you have to wake up to the fact that this person *does not love you* and probably hasn't loved you for a very long time, if ever. Because the truth of the matter is, someone who can be emotionally cruel, malicious, and compassionless with people who have given him their love and their trust, is so absorbed in self-hate that he is incapable of loving himself, much less anyone else. What the abuser feels is obsession, not love.
If you find that you are having to explain the basics of respect and courtesy to a partner - if you are finding that he just DOESN'T SEEM TO GET IT, when you try to explain why his behavior or actions were disrespectful - run far and run fast. People who are capable of maintaining and contributing to a loving, supportive, healthy relationship, DON'T need to constantly have the concepts of respect, compassion, and consideration explained to them.
Just because he admits his behavior (and WATCH - some abusers are VERY good at acknowledging they did something without apologizing, or admitting there was anything WRONG with the behavior.), does NOT mean he is willing to change it, that he will not repeat the behavior, nor that he even believes he did anything unacceptable, hurtful or wrong. DO NOT take admission of an act as a sign of integrity, acceptance of responsibility, a show of remorse, or an indication of genuine caring, unless you see EXPLICIT behavior that demonstrates it.
It is NOT wrong, or unhealthy to want someone to love and care about you and care for you, and to want to reciprocate. It is only through this kind of openness that we can acheive true intimacy with another individual. And two emotionally healthy people, CAN do this without becoming co-dependent. Unfortunately, abusers violate the trust that this kind of relationship requires, and are incapable of true intimacy. They want you to be dependent. People who ARE capable of genuinely loving you in a healthy and safe way, DON'T WANT TO HURT YOU, and do not DELIBERATELY DO THINGS TO HURT YOU. They don't play on your insecurities and they don't wage psychological warfare on you. They don't blame YOU for all the relationship problems, and they don't fabricate problems just so you can be the scapegoat.
People who love you will treat you with respect, consideration, courtesty, honesty and compassion. If you are with someone who matches the abusive behavior in this article, get help. The sooner you wake up to the fact that the relationship is unhealthy, and move on, the sooner your life will improve.
Remember: Safe People are people who draw you closer to who you were meant to be spiritually, emotionally, mentally and physically. They encourage you to be your most loving, growing self.
More links to web pages/sites about Abusers and Emotional Abuse:
Romeo is Bleeding - how to recognize and avoid abusers and controllers
Angry Affirmations - how abusers stay mad at the world
how to be Unhappy - how abusers stay miserable
The Blame Game - How Abusers with Borderline Personality Disorder set people up in "no win" situations. If you want to learn more about BPD, check out the entire section at Suite101. It might be that the abuser you are dealing with has this very debilitating disorder.
A Non-Borderline's Quest to Understand Borderlines - Q&A about why Borderlines act the way they do (abusively), to people close to them.
Devaluation - How borderlines "devalue" people close to them so they can feel justified in acting out.
Good book resources include:
Emotional Blackmail - When the People in your Life Use Fear, Obligation and Guilt to Manipulate you, by Susan Forward, Ph.D.
Healing the Scars of Emotional Abuse, by Gregory L. Jantz, Ph.D.
Footnote:
Many people have written to me asking where this article came from, what are my references? It came from "eating the f*cking dog food" (figuratively, folks) - from f*cking up. Bigtime. From getting $ucked in and having to dig myself out of the $hit. It came from having to take a long hard look at myself and figure out what was wrong with ME that made me susceptible, and learning about what I should watch out for so it doesn't happen again. It came from reading, and counselling, and introspection, and talking to people in the counselling profession, and talking to others who had been through similar experiences, and all that hard work stuff. No, I'm not a doctor, or a psychologist (though one of my ex's thinks I SHOULD be), but over time, I have developed a deep insight into the human condition - largely because having life bite you in the ass has the side effect of opening your eyes, if you let it.
There wasn't a great deal of resources online about covert emotional abuse when I wrote this. So in addition to being catharic, I figured hey, if it helps ONE OTHER PERSON to figure out that they are being taken for a very $hitty ride, then it's served its purpose.
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Heres another one some of the statements in this o/w in my sitch as said the things to h..........especially when hes come home xxxxxxxxxxxxxx
kie prompted me to look at why these o/w are capable of making our h's stay.........thanks Kie reading these things makes sense xxxxxxxxxxxxxx
EMOTIONAL BLACKMAIL
Emotional Blackmailers:
Threaten to make things difficult if you don't do what they want.
Constantly threaten to end the relationship if you don't give in.
Regularly ignore or discount your feelings and wants.
Tell you or imply that they will neglect, hurt themselves, or become depressed if you don't do what they want.
Shower you with approval when you give into them and take it away when you don't.
Use money as a weapon to get their own way.
Emotional blackmail is a powerful form of manipulation in which people close to us threaten (either directly or indirectly) to punish us if we don't do what they want. At the heart of any kind of blackmail is one basic threat, which can be expressed in many different ways: If you don't behave the way I want you to, you will suffer. A criminal blackmailer might threaten to use knowledge about a person's past to ruin her reputation, or ask to be paid off in cash to hide a secret. Emotional blackmail hits closer to home. Emotional blackmailers know how much we value our relationship with them. They know our vulnerabilities. Often they know our deepest secret. And no matter how much they care about us, when they fear they won't go their way, they use this intimate knowledge to shape the threats that give them the payoff they want: our compliance. Knowing that we want love or approval, our blackmailers threaten to withhold it or take it away altogether, or make feel we must earn it. For example, if you pride yourself being generous and caring, the blackmailer might label you selfish or inconsiderate if you don't accede to his wishes. If you value money and security, the blackmailer might attach conditions to providing them or threaten to take them away. And if you believe the blackmailer, you could fall into a pattern of letting him control your decisions and behavior. We get locked into a dance with blackmail, a dance with myriad steps, shapes and partners.
Emotional blackmailers hate to lose. They take the old adage "It doesn't matter if you win or lose, it's how you play the game", and turn it on its head to read "It doesn't matter how you play the game as long as you do not lose." To an emotional blackmailer, keeping your trust doesn't count, respecting your feelings doesn't count, being fair doesn't count. The ground rules that allow for healthy give-and-take go out the window. In the midst of what we thought was a solid relationship it's as though someone yelled "Everyone for himself!" and the other person lumped to take advantage of us while our guard was down. Why is winning so important to blackmailers, we ask ourselves. Why are they doing this to us? Why do they need to get their way so badly that they'll punish us if they don't?
Below are some specific ways to answer the most common types of responses. It can't emphasize too strongly how important it is to practice saying these statements until they feel natural to you. How to respond to the other person's catastrophic predictions and threats. Punishers and self-punishers may try pressuring you to change your decision by bombarding you with visions of the extreme negative consequences of doing what you've decided to do. It's never easy to resist the fear that their bleak vision will come to pass, especially when the theme they're pounding home is "Bad things will happen - and it'll be your fault." But hold your ground.
When they say: Then you say:
If you don't take care of me, I'll wind up in the hospital/on the street/unable to work.
* You'll never see your kids again.
* You'll destroy this family.
* You're not my child anymore.
* I'm cutting you out of my will.
* I'll get sick.
* I can't make it without you.
* I'll make you suffer.
* You'll be sorry. * That's your choice.
* I hope you won't do that, but I've made my decision.
* I know you're very angry right now. When you've had a chance to think about this, maybe you'll change your mind.
* Why don't we talk about this again when you're less upset.
* Threats/suffering/tears aren't going to work anymore.
* I'm sorry you're upset.
;
;
When they say: Then you say:
* I can't believe you're being so selfish. This isn't like you. You're only thinking of yourself. You never think about my feelings.
* I really thought you were different from the other women/men I've been with. I guess I was wrong.
* That's the stupidest thing I've ever heard.
* Everyone knows that children are supposed to respect their parents
* flow can you be so disloyal?
* You're just being an idiot.
* You're entitled to your opinion.
* I'm sure that's how it looks to you.
* That could be.
* You may be right.
* I need to think about this more.
* We'll never get anywhere if you keep insulting me.
* I'm sorry you're upset.
* How could you do this to me (after all I've done for you)?
* Why are you ruining my life?
* Why are you being so stubborn/obstinate/selfish?
* What's come over you?
* Why are you acting like this?
* Why do you want to hurt me?
* Why are you making such a big deal out of this?
* I knew you wouldn't be happy about this, but that's the way it has to be.
* I here are no villains here. We just want different things. * I'm not willing to take more than 50 percent of the responsibility.
* I know how upset/angry/disappointed you are, but it's not negotiable.
* We see things differently.
* I'm sure you see it that way.
* I'm sorry you're upset.
Handling Silence
But what about the person who blackmails through anger that is expressed covertly through sulks and suffering? When they say nothing, what can you say or do? For many targets, this silent anger is far more maddening and crazy than an overt attack. Sometimes it seems as if nothing works with this kind of blackmailer, and sometimes nothing does. But you'll have the most success if you stick to the principles of non defensive communication and stay conscious of the following do's and don'ts.
In dealing with silent blackmailers, DON'T:
Expect them to rake the first step toward resolving the conflict.
Plead with them to tell you what's wrong.
Keep after them for a response (which will only make them withdraw more).
Criticize, analyze or interpret their motives, character or inability to be direct.
Willingly accept blame for whatever they're upset about to get them into a better mood.
Allow them to change the Subject.
Get intimidated by the tension and anger in the air.
Let your frustration cause you to make threats you really don't mean (e.g., "If you don't tell me what's wrong, I'll never speak to you again").
Assume that if they ultimately apologize, it will be followed by any significant change in their behavior.
Expect major personality changes, even if they recognize what they're doing and are willing to work on it. Remember: Behavior can change. Personality styles usually don't.
DO use the following techniques:
Remember that you are dealing with people who feel inadequate and powerless and who are afraid of your ability to hurt or abandon them.
Confront them when they're more able to hear what you have to say. Consider writing a letter. It may feel less threatening to them.
Reassure them that they can tell you what they're angry about and you will hear them out without retaliating.
Use tact and diplomacy. This will reassure them that you won't exploit their vulnerabilities and bludgeon them with recriminations.
Say reassuring things like "I know you're angry right now, and I'll be willing to discuss this with you as soon as you're ready to talk about it," Then leave them alone. You'll only make them withdraw more if you don't.
Don't be afraid to tell them that their behavior is upsetting to you, but begin by expressing appreciation. For example: "Dad, I really care about you, and I think you're one of the smartest people I know, but it really bothers me when you clam up every time we disagree about something and just walk away is hurting our relationship, and I wonder if you would talk to me about that."
Stay focused on the issue you're upset about.
Expect to be attacked when you express a grievance, because they experience your assertion as an attack on them as an attack on them.
Let them know that you know they're angry and what you're willing to do about it. For example: "I'm sorry you 're upset because I don't want your folks to stay with us when they're in town, but I'm certainly willing to take the time to find a nice hotel for them and maybe pay for part of their vacation."
Accept the fact that you will have to make the first move most, if not all, of the time.
Let some things slide
These techniques are the only ones that have a chance to interrupt the pattern that's so typical of a silent, angry blackmailer, the cycle that goes "Look how upset I am, and it's all your fault. Now figure out what you did wrong and how you're going to make it up to me." I know how infuriating it is to have to be the rational one when you feel like strangling the other person, but it's the only way I know to create an atmosphere that will allow change to take place. Your hardest job will he to stay non defensive and to convince the quietly angry person that it's OK for them to be angry when they've spent lifetime believing just the opposite.
Information on this page comes from: Emotional Blackmail : When the People in Your Life Use Fear, Obligation and Guilt to Manipulate You by Susan Forward, Susan Forware, Donna Frazier Price: $10.40 Paperback - 272 pages 1 Harper edition (March 1998) paperback) ISBN: 0060928972
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Interesting and also depressing. I feel my h has been emotionally abusive on a level throughout our m but in the last two years this has escalated.
I'm trying to have as little contact as I can at the moment , maybe it's just mlc. time will tell.
Thank you for the information it is the most comprehensive I have read so far.
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Thank you for posting this.
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And two emotionally healthy people, CAN do this without becoming co-dependent. Unfortunately, abusers violate the trust that this kind of relationship requires, and are incapable of true intimacy. They want you to be dependent.
Roll in the truck with the 2 x 4's BUT:
I realize "Codependence" is a dirty word or has become that way over the years but I believe that a certain degree of it is necessary to build an intimate relationship. And I've been through the 12 step alanon thing too.
And to a degree some of this "Emotional Abuse" listed EXH has done to me and some of this stuff I have done to him. There is no marriage that has not suffered some of the arrows of all the imperfections of the human disposition. It's left to ourselves and our own interpretations of how much we tolerate until we finally don't.
I think the articale helped me to recognize the behaviors as sometimes they are so accepted as a "norm" in the relationship. It's a GREAT refresher course. Thanks for posting it. ;D
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I would agree with 'in this....' above.
After reading this, though, It has made me realise MORE THAN EVER that H has been like this before and throughout our marriage. All but about 2 of the traits he has exhibited frequently.
It helps me to know I wasn't going mad and wasn't the 'b!tc#' for responding in an upset manner to his name calling and yelling etc.
I can also look back and identify the times when he 'set me up'. It's sad but it is also freeing to finally understand what the heck was going on all those years. I felt such a burdan to make him happy or NOT make him upset for fear of him walking out on the marriage. Well he finally did but now OW can have the abuse. I ache for my kids but all I can do now is be the best parent I can be and let God fill the void that H has left.
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My .02 which means nothing to most.
This article is crap as marriages and FOO applies to all.
MOST therapists can claim the VICTIM is a abused spouse of some sort. Hmmmmmm.
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rookie,
I agree, I think all long-term relationships contain some of these elements some of the time. People get angry, people try to control, people try to manipulate SOME of the time. We all do it. MLCers, LBS's, Alienators. The question is whether it is a way of life; and whether it is the normal functioning pattern in the relationship all of the time.
I could see things that H did, things that I did ( and things that I know both H and OW do frequently) in the article. Is H an emotional abuser, am I, is OW?
Well, the anwer is "occasionally yes" if the standards in this article are what we are setting ourselves up against. I find this kind of article helpful in some ways as I can identify for myself "patterns" of behaviour that I have had, and that HE has had, that are not necessarily healthy. But my H and I laughed together, socialised together and had fun together for most of our relationship - we even solved relationship problems together. My H was passive aggressive and conflict avoidant, and I am reactive - so maybe we were always incompatible as far as arguing, problem solving, was concerned. I am working on being "responsive" and not reactive - I doubt that H is trying to address his "p-a" behaviour, especially now in crisis. OW is controlling, and a manipulator on a grander scale than I am capable of - the fact that I was willing to walk away from the marriage despite loving H and not wanting to (and the fact that she could not walk away despite hardly knowing him, having been dumped by him and treated like an experiment for him) tells me that she is desperate in a way that I know that I am not.
I sometimes read articles like this that make human characteristics that most people display SOME of the time (because EVERYONE is capable of insecurity, low self esteem and bad reactions), whether it is covert or overt "emotional abuse", and think, frankly, EVERYONE I know ought to be divorced if these are the standards of a healthy relationship. I personally do not know at what point a person would draw the line between "so and so behaves badly from time to time" to "this bad behaviour is systematic and defining and therefore constitutes real abuse". I know there is a line, but I wonder if there are any relationships that NEVER cross it?
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I recognize a lot into the behaviour the last years that my XH was living at home. He did some emotional abuse to me, my sister saw it too. I have great faith in my XH still that it was due to MLC, this behaviour. On the other hand I doubt myself from time to time of who am I kidding? Maybe he was that behaviour all along but why did I stay in the marriage for 17 years?
I recognize what Stand and Deliver says: him being passive agressive and conflict avoider and not willing to talk about himself. Me, very outspoken, wanting to talk. He could always put me right on track when I was worrying about something. In all the 17 years he didn't want to talk about his work, the last few months him being at home, he suddenly put papers in front of my nose, showing me work stuff. I thought: what the heck? After 17 years, but because his behaviour was already gone off the deep end I was not very responsive to his attempts. I was busy maintaining the household, he was off running, wondering if he was getting bold, working on his abs etc.
According to OW: she is manipulative, he an emotional abuser? Or is he not emotional abusive with OW, only with me? That we don't know.
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Quite interesting scroll down you will see the lust/infatuation it says here it can last between3-6 months to 2 yrs but that it can also last 2--4yrs ......well in my case h as been with o/w over 3 yrs xxxxxxxxxxx
http://nateperkins.com/kirbyguides/love.html
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Found this though i would share it .........very interesting read xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
Here is the website address it has some comments on it too if you want to read those........http://dividedheart.com/index.php?topic=1331.0
Understanding The Process of Self-Delusion
We know that the same principles for intervening also hold true for a person caught up in sin, any sin, controlling his or her life.
Why?
Because the same process of self-delusion occurs. Unless a person is totally corrupt and just doesn’t care what is right or wrong, he must delude himself into believing the sinful behavior either isn’t sin or is a much less serious sin than it actually is. Intervention with an alcoholic aims itself at overcoming self-delusions, making the person face the truth about his or her behavior. At the very moment a person accepts that truth about himself, he usually accepts the path of healing offered by those who brought about the realization. The intervention leads the person to the point of accepting help. That process works just as well with someone enmeshed in adultery or addicted to gambling as it does with a person addicted to alcohol or drugs. Break through the self-delusions and you have the opportunity to put the person on the path to recovery.
To understand how to intervene, it is important that one understand two major points about self-delusion. First, the self-deluded person cannot rescue him- or herself from the addictive sin. Second, the self-deluded person is usually very adept at keeping people from effectively dealing with his sins by adroitly diverting them to dealing with his delusions. That’s why we explain below the four phases of self-delusion to you. We don’t intend to make you experts—it isn’t necessary that you understand all the psychology or nuances—but only need to make you aware of what the process is. A person with average people skills can master intervention when equipped with an awareness of how the addicted sinner operates.
The First Phase of Delusion—Rationalization
Rationalization is an unconscious process that keeps a person from feeling bad about his or her actions. Of necessity, the person doesn’t recognize the rationalizations because recognizing that he is rationalizing means that he can’t rationalize any longer. As Johnson wrote, "First, all people rationalize when their behavior has caused them some kind of legitimate discomfort. This is the function of rationalization: to help us feel better about ourselves when we have done something of which we’re not especially proud. Second, all rationalizations must be unconscious in order to work. We cannot be aware that we’re rationalizing as we’re doing it; in fact, the more aware we are, the less successful our rationalization will be."
Self-delusion differs from normal rationalization in that when a normal rationalization is confronted, "a dose of the facts is usually enough to bring him or her back through the rationalization to reality." But in self-delusion, "rationalization becomes integral to his or her life. Every [inappropriate] behavior is rationalized away, and the person is swept further and further from reality and further into delusion . . . The intellect continues to suppress the emotions and defend against reason until the truth is buried beyond reach."3 A kind of pathological mental mismanagement takes over. "The more the individual believes in his or her own rationalizations, the further into delusion he or she goes.
Sound bad?
It will get worse.
Rationalization is only the first phase of self-delusion. The person convinces himself on a conscious level that his actions aren’t wrong, no matter what anyone says, but on the subconscious level something quite different happens. "His bad feelings about himself have been locked in at the unconscious level by a secure, high, and seamless wall of rational defenses. This is why he can believe what to everyone else seems patently unbelievable. Because of the wall, he cannot get at those bad feelings about himself. He is not even aware that they exist. But they are, nevertheless, chronically present in the form of a free-floating mass of anxiety, guilt, shame, and remorse."5 Without intervention, those negative emotions lead to the next phase.
The Second Phase of Delusion—Projection
The free-floating negative emotions caused by intense rationalization need some outlet. Usually they express themselves by attacking others. The deluded sinner attacks spouse, children, parents, friends, church leaders, church members, authors, or anyone else who gets in his or her path.
Naturally, a common projection is to blame the entire problem on the spouse. "If he had only . . ." or "Nobody could live with someone like him . . ." When others respond to those attacks—either to agree or disagree—they only make the projected charges more real to the deluded person. Responding to his projections helps him convince himself that he is right; it is all his spouse’s fault. Those who agree give credence. Those who disagree harden him in his position as he battles to convince them.
The most vitriolic attacks aren’t always directed at the spouse. They usually aim themselves at anyone who tries to convince the sinner that his or her actions are sinful or that he or she should stop the sinful behavior. He quickly assigns them evil motives and/or evil actions and responds emotionally in proportion to the threat he perceives from them. He sees the spouse who begs him to come home and work out the marriage as conniving, self-serving, and uncaring. "Yeah, you want me home now? Well what about the way you’ve treated me in the past? Why would anyone believe that I should stay married to you after you’ve . . . " He sees church leaders who try to convince him to stop the sin as controlling, unqualified because of their own sins, or heretics. "Those people don’t really care about me. All they care about is controlling the people in their precious little church. And how does so-and-so think he could ever have the right to say anything to anyone after he . . . " He sees his children as brainwashed, pawns of the spouse, and unaware. "You don’t know it now, but you’ll be much better off after the divorce. You just aren’t thinking clearly. After all, I know you’ll be happier not to have to live in the misery our home has been while your Mom and I were fighting every day . . ."
While these projections appear to be mean and spiteful, the self-deluded person sees them as vindicated and just. Just as rationalization must be an unconscious act to benefit the self-deluded, so must projection. He actually believes he is "standing up for himself" or even, in extreme cases, "standing for the truth of God!" (We often see a sinner rationalizing his behavior by yanking various scriptures to justify himself and/or to condemn those who try to intervene. In these cases, the sinner usually seeks out other Christians who will justify his position—there is always someone out there who will—and tries to evoke a battle between his recruited gladiators and those brethren who love him enough to try to stop him.)
When responded to in the same spirit or tone he or she manifests, the sinner becomes more adamant and more focused in his attacks. The defense of self becomes part of the delusion. Now the "addict" can focus on another person (or group of people) instead of having to deal with self, giving even more power to the delusion within. The "fight" with them keeps him from having to "fight" with himself.
Wise church leaders refuse to fight with him or any sympathizer he recruits. Argument isn’t intervention, as you will see.
But after a while even projection isn’t enough for the sinner. If intervention doesn’t occur now, the delusion evolves to the next phase.
The Third Phase of Delusion—Repression
The sinful behavior controlling the person tends to escalate during Phase Two, leading to more involvement in the sin that moves the person into the more dangerous Phase Three.
Whatever the level of actual sinful actions, the person moves past self-imposed barriers and violates personally held values. That puts her in an impossible position because she can’t live with herself if she continually violates her belief system. The stresses of her own inconsistency will lead her to a kind of personality "meltdown" as well as overwhelm her with guilt, shame, confusion, and a host of other negative emotions. She must do something to reduce that self-conflicted stress.
Past rationalizations begin to unravel but unless she’s become completely corrupt she can’t emotionally afford to abandon them. She sticks to her arguments and justifications for her behavior but they aren’t enough anymore. She has to find a new way to cope with her sin. Without awareness of what she is doing, she moves into Phase Three—Repression.
"They literally shut it out of their minds. They continue to rationalize some of their behaviors (those they can bear to face), and they repress those they cannot rationalize . . . Like rationalization, repression is a human survival skill. None of us could endure the memory of every shameful or embarrassing moment we’ve experienced during our entire lives; the sheer enormity would overwhelm us. When a normal person represses a specific memory, it is usually of no great consequence, since the behavior that led to the memory is unlikely to be repeated. But when [an addict] represses, it is because those actions that produced the pain and shame have occurred more than once and are likely to recur and worsen with the passage of time . . . It works to push [the addict] deeper into the [delusion] until the truth becomes virtually unattainable—unless it is brought back forcibly through intervention or a fortuitous grouping of crises."
The addicted sinner still justifies his or her actions, but in Phase Three some actions just aren’t justifiable, even in his or her well-woven rationalizations. Every action he or she can no longer justify now just disappears from memory. She doesn’t remember doing anything or saying anything contrary to her values. It isn’t that she can’t remember, that she’s had some kind of physically induced amnesia. The "amnesia" comes from completely psychological origins. She chooses not to remember, but the choice isn’t made with the conscious mind; it’s made in the subconscious. She’s keeping herself from facing her own contradictions.
Intervention at this point becomes more difficult but not impossible. The job of intervention is to make those repressed actions reappear and to reappear with powerful results.
Before we tell you how to do that, we examine the last phase of self-delusion.
The Fourth Phase of Delusion—Altered Memory
Nearly every person who reaches marital crisis rewrites marital history. Events from the past get interpreted differently. For example, it isn’t unusual to hear, "I never loved her. I’m not sure why I married her but I know that I never did love her."
Why would a person rewrite history?
To justify current actions.
If one can convince himself that his spouse has always been a bad mate, or that life has been a man-made hell for years, or that his spouse is totally impossible to live with, then it’s easy to rationalize that leaving that spouse isn’t a sin; it’s survival! No wonder those justifying themselves nearly always alter memories. Altered memories give credence to current rationalizations.
A person in Phase Four doesn’t alter memory about just the distant past: they’ve reached a stage of self-delusion that alters memories of things that happened recently. It’s the next logical step after Repression. If he can’t forget an act, he alters the interpretation of what happened so that it justifies the act.
From people in Phase Four we’ve heard things like, "No one in my church cares about me. Not one of them has even bothered to try to contact me!" when we knew absolutely that someone from their church spoke with them just days before. No, they aren’t lying. They really believe what they’re saying is true. They’ve reached the fourth stage of delusion where they have to change actual occurrences to justify their behaviors. Their rewriting of history is completely subconscious but it serves its purpose well. It continues to insulate the sinner from the guilt and shame of his own actions.
Nothing his spouse did in the last few months—maybe even years—carries anything but negative memories. That negative history justifies leaving her.
Likewise, interactions with friends or church leaders take on a different light. The conversation yesterday with a buddy or a minister isn't remembered as "I care about you and want to help" but as "You dirty so-and-so, why don’t you just curl up and die!" Why? Because it’s easy to disregard the rantings of a mean-spirited enemy than the genuine concerns of a caring friend.
Even in this stage of self-delusion, the addicted sinner can still be rescued. The process, of course, is intervention.
Now That You Understand Something About the Addicted Sinner’s Self-Delusion
We pray that now that you understand that addicted sinners are self-deluded, you will stop expecting them to come to their senses. You’ll let go of the notion that you could help them if they would just quit lying. You’ll forget that old, terribly wrong concept that there’s nothing anyone can do until the addicted sinner wants help. Addicted sinners can’t want help because they can’t allow themselves to admit that what they’re doing is sin! Because addicted sinners are self-deluded, they don’t know they’re lying. Their delusions make them believe everything they’re saying is true. That means that they cannot help themselves and they will not overcome their capturing sin without help from someone who loves them and who isn’t deluded about their sin.
Also, now that you understand the phases of self-delusion, you won’t allow yourself to be sidetracked by them. You’ll know not to let the addicted sinner goad you into an argument or debate. You’ll know not to believe—and therefore, be discouraged by—statements like "I never loved her" or "Do you know what she did?" You’ll keep on task to rescue the sinner from his sinful ways without allowing him to focus on the wrong things. You’ll never accept his or her interpretation of anything, not even what happened yesterday, because you know that he or she must alter history to justify current behavior. And you’ll know that there are things just under the surface, being repressed, that if you can bring to light you can use to momentarily stop the sinner from his or her sin so that you can set them on a path of spiritual and marital healing.
That, as you recall, is the whole purpose of intervention.
Remember, intervention doesn’t stop the sin; it leads the person to a point of admitting her own self-delusion, that, as a result, will lead her to accept the next step in overcoming the sin. Properly done intervention breaks through the rationalization, leading to a period of lucidity where the person is willing to find help to stop the sin.
Illustrating the Four Phases
If you feel you have a good enough grasp of the four phases of self-delusion to understand why the addicted sinner does them and to know not to let her lure you into reacting to her rationalizations, you may want to skip this illustration section. We’d rather you be comfortable with the concepts and act than to become immersed in their intricacies and not act. Nevertheless, we know that some folks like specific illustrations of principles they’re learning. For that reason, we illustrate in this small section how an addicted sinner might evolve through the four phases.
While we could choose any number of sins to illustrate how self-delusion works, the most common addictive sin we encounter in our work at FDI is an adulterous relationship.
Most continuing adulterous relationships didn’t start out with the intention of becoming adulterous.7 Our experience in working with thousands of couples shows that the most common source for a paramour is from couples who are best friends. The second most common source is with a fellow employee. In both situations the relationship usually begins in innocuous ways and gradually grows to sinful proportions. No defense barriers erect themselves because neither person sees danger until it is too late. By then, they don’t want any defenses. They move into Phase One—Rationalization—as fulfilled needs and desires drive each to subconsciously find ways to justify the relationship. Sentiments like the following, either spoken or mentally rehearsed countless times, provide the budding sinner a kind of justification for the sin:
"My spouse doesn’t understand me"
"God wanted us to be together so we could be happy"
"You don’t know what it was like living in that marriage"
"I’ve studied my Bible and come to the conclusion that I’m not really married to my current spouse!"
Instead of being surprised to hear rationalizations, we should expect them. How could otherwise godly people sin repeatedly if they couldn’t find some way to rationalize the behavior?
As they move into Phase Two—Projection—the interaction between the addicted sinner and her lover intensifies. As she projects her subconscious negative feelings onto others, the addicted sinner eliminates relationships with friends and family, either reacting to their negative view of her situation or fearing they will negatively react in the future. Because of disengaging those significant people from her life , the addicted sinner feels a need to be closer to her lover. If the affair hasn’t been overtly sexual to this point, it now takes on a physical dimension. For some it doesn’t evolve yet to sexual intercourse, but it definitely moves past actions that the person could justify as holy and good.
If the adulterous relationship has already turned sexual, an interesting transition often occurs at this point. Most long-lived adulteries began as friendships, which means the strongest aspect to the relationship involves emotional bonding. As a person moves into the latter stages of Phase Two and the beginning stages of Phase Three, the emotional part of the adultery often becomes secondary to the sexual aspect. That happens because different needs are now being fulfilled by her sexual encounters with her lover. Instead of providing a sense of warmth, closeness, and intimacy, their physical union evolves into an intense "you and me against the world" fantasy. Although this kind of sexual interaction is not as fulfilling in a romantic sense, she finds herself craving it. It provides an escapism from reality because she has a sense of being encapsulated with her lover, separate from the real world around her.
Her escalating involvement becomes so intense that the addicted sinner can no longer rationalize all her actions. She must move into Phase Three—Repression. Her claims to self that "this isn’t about sex" loses some of its persuasiveness as sex finally becomes a primary factor in the relationship. If her life spirals out of her rationalized control, she may move rapidly from her original values and morals. The breech caused by the adultery widens to include other sins. She may start drinking, change her appearance and lifestyle, or participate in sexual activities that she previously viewed as taboo.
When that happens, those changes may alter her into a different person, unlike anything she has ever been or thought she would be. Of course, those changes in her also affect her relationship with her lover. She and the lover may start to argue or disagree. The affair itself may be endangered, though no one should sit back expecting it just to end on its own in the not too distant future. Affairs that self-destruct usually self-destruct slowly.
Phase Three evolves into Phase Four—Altered History. The addicted sinner’s transgressions exist only in favorable light: "God’s forgiven me for what I’ve done" or "I only did that because of how difficult it is to live with you." Her memories of the spouse’s shortcomings carry a much different hue: "You’ve done so much damage to me" or "If everyone knew how you really are."
The most fascinating part of this phase is the altered memory of sinful acts. She may remember last night’s sexual encounter as only holding and kissing. Think that impossible? We’ve seen even more bizarre altered memory from adulterous couples. For example, she may have no memory of the tremendous argument she and her lover had when they last sneaked off together. All she remembers is how she felt being with him—protected, secure, loved—even if nothing that transpired in that rendezvous communicated any of those feelings. We’ve seen adulterous relationships break apart where one paramour couldn’t stand the degeneration into constant arguments and insults while the other paramour remembers little to nothing of bad things happening while they were together.
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Wow ... really interesting stuff WGH. Thanks for this.
Incidentally, do you have a thread right now with your sitch? Haven't seen one for a while... have I missed it? Maybe you can tell me the title or post a link here!!
Thanks xxxx
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Really interesting. Explains a lot about my H's actions and statements. Him to a tee!
But what do WE do from here on?
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WOW WGH....This is some pretty interesting stuff here...I can see my H throughout it ALL!
Like SP says...where do we go from here??
Thanks for posting.
((hugs))
Syn
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I think if ive read it write the only way for us now is to let go and let GOD just as hero spouse as been trying to get through my thick head lol xxxxxxxxxxxxx
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I was think about this article while I was out this morning and it really made so much sense to me and explained what's been going on in H's head. We all ask how they can turn monster etc. This helps to understand the process in theri minds before and after BD.
For me, I believe that the affair is really VERY SEPARATE from anything to do with the marriage.
I get a sense that, while we did have problems in the marriage (Who doesn't??) I WAS prepared to hear H out and di start working on those things I needed to chnage. However, if we both had worked on it I do beleive we'd still be together.
I think the affair started the way it's described in the article but was born out of H's own issues and nothing to do with our marriage, the kids or I. They just happen in parralel and so the WAS has something as a target for his rationalisation and justification of the affair. Then it's stands true that we could NEVER have stopped as it was all within themselves
OW came along and it made him FEEL great. He enjoyed it, just like any other drug. He didn't stop and thus continued the crisis.
I think this article would help Newbies in understanding WHY pursuing is pointless etc. When we understand the WHY, I think it makes more sense to adopt this new approach and we are more likely to do the 180.
I'd be interested in anyone elses thoughts?
SP
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I'm so happy for the LBS's who find this website and articles like this early on in the MLC. I wish I had!! While it's sad to read things like this, it's also comforting to know that our MLCer's fit a definite pattern and are all SO much alike. This article fit my H completely!! I especially could relate to our pastor and a couple friends trying to intervene, and H dismissing them by talking about their own "skeletons in the closet" and how they just couldn't possibly know what he had "been through". The pastor "had to say those things because he's a pastor, but he doesn't really know God's will". All those crazy-making attempts to get through to H were a total waste of effort and emotion for everyone involved.
Now that our girls will hardly see him at all, his constant mantra is how I've brainwashed them, and severely damaged them by doing so - another aspect of self-delusion mentioned in the article.
I know it would be pointless to send this to my H, but I'm very tempted to send it to his parents who have bought into everything he says and just want him to be "happy". Maybe that's just me still stupidly trying to get through to that messed up family (H's sister is currently divorcing her H too and has classic MLC behaviors).
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I know it would be pointless to send this to my H, but I'm very tempted to send it to his parents who have bought into everything he says and just want him to be "happy". Maybe that's just me still stupidly trying to get through to that messed up family (H's sister is currently divorcing her H too and has classic MLC behaviors).
Doesn't this fit their description also? I mean the delusion of supporting one's wrongful acts. Justifying his behaviour so THEY don' have to face some truths. Most likely some things that the MLCer's are running from stems from the people that now 'support' them.
Anyway, it's just a thought.............
SP
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I have read this a few times since it was posted and I don't quite 'see' it the same way. I think it is saying that at some point intervention is essential to get the deluded person to start to see that their behaviour & actions are wrong.
Remember, intervention doesn’t stop the sin; it leads the person to a point of admitting her own self-delusion, that, as a result, will lead her to accept the next step in overcoming the sin. Properly done intervention breaks through the rationalization, leading to a period of lucidity where the person is willing to find help to stop the sin.
Seems to me this matches with 'our' truth darts.
I guess it is a question of timing.
Just my take on this. I had an opportunity to throw a huge truth dart at my deluded h. yesterday and quite frankly he needs a rocket next. I will update my own thread on the latest.
CrazyStuff
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I've read this before too and it definitely fits my H...he used the same lines too "no one knows what he has been through"...you'd think I strung him up and beat him every night! Ridiculous. EVERYONE knows he didn't have it bad, and now he's basically lost the respect of everyone who knew him.
The can only self-delude for so long though...eventually reality will set in...RIGHT????? THAT is what everyone keeps saying anyway! :)
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I have read this a few times since it was posted and I don't quite 'see' it the same way. I think it is saying that at some point intervention is essential to get the deluded person to start to see that their behaviour & actions are wrong.
Remember, intervention doesn’t stop the sin; it leads the person to a point of admitting her own self-delusion, that, as a result, will lead her to accept the next step in overcoming the sin. Properly done intervention breaks through the rationalization, leading to a period of lucidity where the person is willing to find help to stop the sin.
Seems to me this matches with 'our' truth darts.
I guess it is a question of timing.
Just my take on this. I had an opportunity to throw a huge truth dart at my deluded h. yesterday and quite frankly he needs a rocket next. I will update my own thread on the latest.
CrazyStuff
CrazyStuff,
I kind of get the impression the BD is all ready past phase 4 and as such, an intervention is useless. That is my impression anyway.
Z.
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CrazyStuff,
I kind of get the impression the BD is all ready past phase 4 and as such, an intervention is useless. That is my impression anyway.
Z.
I agree Ziggee that in many cases BD is past phase 4,so God guided and inspired intervention is necessary.
To me, this article explains how they (MLCers) get to where they do... ::)
The interventions are the truth darts, but they can only be sent when the timing (and the 'soil') is right, which is why WGH says that we need to let go and let God.
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I didn't see where the article explained how to intervene. Did I miss something?
My D17 has been shooting very pointed, God inspired (I really believe cuz she's much better at it than me) truth darts for 8 months now with no impact whatsoever. If she can't reach him I don't really hold out any more hope.
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Faith, Our daughters are gifts from God. My D20 has been shooting Biblically based truth darts at her Dad for over two years. These guys are well over phase 4 in their level of delusion and will not listen to anyone. Yet, my H cries in church the few times he has attended with us over this past year.
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Faith, Our daughters are gifts from God. My D20 has been shooting Biblically based truth darts at her Dad for over two years. These guys are well over phase 4 in their level of delusion and will not listen to anyone. Yet, my H cries in church the few times he has attended with us over this past year.
Covenant, can I ask how your daughter's relationship with her father is now?
My stbx is apparently going to church too, or at least occasionally so he can mention it to the girls. For me the hypocrisy part is the hardest. This would be easier for all of us to understand if they would just openly reject God - it would make more sense to the kids. :(
You are so right though - our daughters are gifts and inspirations.
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My D15 also addressed the issues and hypocrisy with her father head-on, though with compassion and love. He just spewed terrible monster at her and continued his affair with our family friend under D's nose for another 7 months until I told him he had to find another place to live. Shortly after BD, H. stopped looking at or speaking to D (age 13 at the time). When he left, he did not say goodbye, did not leave a forwarding address and has not asked for visitation in more than a year. D (now 15) has incredible wisdom for one so young and has moved forward beautifully. He is missing out on an incredible human being, but she is so much more evolved and mature than he at this point. I can't really imagine how interactions between them would go. She knows that I have no problem with her contacting her father and seeing him any time she wishes, but she has no desire in his present state and has had enough of his antics, anger and abandonment.
I too am a bit confused about this article as it sounded like intervention is in order. My H surrounds himself only with OW and people who will go along with his crazy, so no hope of intervention there. He is a total vanisher as well, so neither I or D would have any impact on him.
So far, his delusion is serving him well and he is having a merry old time by all appearances. He is moving forward with divorce proceedings now, so unless God intervenes, I can only assume our marriage is not meant to be saved. H has certainly had no interest in that at any point in the process thus far.
Best to all,
Phoenix
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D20's relationship with her Dad is terrible, through no fault of her own. It is not that there is monster spew or open hostility. It is more like apathy and she told me a few days ago that she is almost done with her Dad. She is away at college and never hears from him unless she texts or emails him. Sometimes he responds and sometimes not.
S17 - who has not sent the truth darts at his Dad - is done with him. He is a high school senior and his father is not really a part of his life. S17 says that he is done trying and that he cannot make his Dad love him.
I have two fabulous children and they deserve a father who loves them and who loves their mother.
I do not think my H is capable of loving anyone. That is how far gone he is in is own delusional world. As long as he pays what he is supposed to, then he thinks he is doing his job. But, he has no relationship with two unbelievable human beings who also happen to be his children. They still pray for him , but know that only God can save their Dad at this point. Mental illness is absolutely a component in my H's case. He was diagnosed with psychosis almost 20 years ago and I would not be surprised to find out that he also has other mental conditions. Nothing else can explain how these men can just stop caring about their own children.
My heart just aches for all of us, but especially for all of our children who have had a parent just abandon them. I am awaiting God's swift justice.
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Great thread and very interesting but IMO read below how you intervene and think this is IMO a combination of fate/god/time and learning from experiences outside of the LBS control?
Intervene as a group; well this could mean - you, and children + others (work colleagues/friends/strangers etc)- truth darts
But the most important thing O got from this is don't stop trying - but the timing needs to be right and the intervention needs to be done with honesty, calmness and control and you the LBS needs to know when to back off or keep the pressure on
So exhausting and worrying (can I do this, Can I get this right , Do I want to ???)
just thinking about it - so don't do this or attempt until you are fully detached and emotionally stable, let go of your Marriage (the old one) and be prepared to be let down, ignored, shouted at, criticised, blamed, stone walled, the list of horrors is endless ...
BUT if you know 99% that you can do this - what have you got to lose - he/she has already gone, emotionally/physically? If this was a person at work/neighbour and you thought you could help them you would try wouldn't YOU? and after you would feel exhausted but glad you have attempted to help them? and when it/if it makes a difference it was/would have been so worth it??
So treat your MLCer as a person needing help not your H/W be remote and detached and maybe we can make a difference ???
what do you think??
Intervening When Sin
Is Destroying a Marriage
by Joe Beam, Family Dynamics Institute
This is the short version of the Family Dynamics Intervention Document. The complete version can be found on their website.
Every marriage can be saved. No matter how bad it is, what has happened, or what is happening, every marriage is salvageable. Not just salvageable. It can be made wonderful and loving. Our nonprofit ministry, Family Dynamics Institute knows from experience that even those marriages that appear to be the most hopeless really aren't hopeless at all. God can do anything, including changing a relationship between two people who no longer even want the change. God still works powerfully in the lives of people and can salvage and make wonderful the most hopeless marriage.
When a couple is at each other's throat, or when one or both are involved in behaviors destroying the marriage, the couple must be calmed; they must be moved back from the precipice before any constructive work can be done to salvage the marriage. No amount of explaining, lecturing, teaching, pleading, or anything else gets through to a person when he or she cannot think logically. The only way to reach the mind is to calm the heart.
If the marital crisis exists because of an addictive sin practiced by either spouse, there must be intervention by people who have a relationship with the couple.
What do we mean by addictive sin? We define it as repeated involvement with a person, chemical, or anything else that destroys the relationship between the married couple. The key isn't just that the behavior is repeated but that the repetition makes the marriage unworkable.
When this kind of addiction -- to a person (adultery), to a chemical (alcohol or any other drug), or to anything else (such as gambling, spousal abuse, etc.) -- exists, someone close to the addict must intervene to stop the destructive behavior. The only marriages that cannot turn around and become what God wants them to be are those where one or both mates refuse to quit the sin destroying the marriage. When the sin stops, the right things can happen to create love and intimacy and commitment. Until it stops, nothing can save them.
Intervention -- Interrupting Addictive Behavior
The good news is that intervention does work.
The bad news is that church leaders often avoid intervention because the very need of it usually presents them with anxiety and apprehension. They often fear they don't have enough evidence, enough skill or training, or enough understanding of the situation. Not knowing what to do, they do nothing at all. It isn't that they don't care; the simple fact is that they don't know the pathway. The don't have a valid process.
If there were ever a case where inaction is worse than the wrong action, this is it! We understand their fears, doubts, and apprehensions, but the most likely result of doing nothing is that the crisis will escalate and the marriage will end. If shepherds in the kingdom don't act, they can't expect anyone else in the church to act, either. If people God placed in positions of leadership step in to help the marriage, the power of God will be with them.
The Proven Process of Intervention
In the early 1960s Vernon E. Johnson developed a model for intervening with chemically dependant people. People, even experts, believed things like: "You can't help someone until he reaches rock bottom" or "You know you can't help someone who doesn't want help." Johnson ignored those prevailing views and forged ahead. He felt that there must be a way to help people who don't want help. He realized that the chemically dependent person remains in that state only because he or she lives in a state of self-delusion. He reasoned that if a focused group of people could break through the alcoholic's or drug addict's rationalizations, they could bring him to a point of lucidity where he would recognize a need for help.
The same principles for intervening also hold true for a person caught up in any sin controlling his or her life. Why? Because the same process of self-delusion occurs. At the very moment a person accepts that truth about himself, he usually accepts the path of healing offered by those who brought about the realization. That process works just as well with someone enmeshed in adultery or addicted to gambling as it does with a person addicted to alcohol or drugs. Break through the self-delusions and you have the opportunity to put the person on the path to recovery. To understand how that works, it is essential to understand the process of self-delusion.
The First Phase of Delusion -- Rationalization
Self-delusion differs from normal rationalization in that when a normal rationalization is confronted, "a dose of the facts is usually enough to bring him or her back through the rationalization to reality." But in self-delusion, "Every [inappropriate] behavior is rationalized away, and the person is swept further and further from reality and further into delusion . . . The intellect continues to suppress the emotions and defend against reason until the truth is buried beyond reach."[1] A kind of pathological mental mismanagement takes over.
The person convinces himself on a conscious level that his actions aren't wrong, no matter what anyone says, but on the subconscious level something quite different happens. "His bad feelings about himself have been locked in at the unconscious level by a secure, high, and seamless wall of rational defenses. This is why he can believe what to everyone else seems patently unbelievable. Because of the wall, he cannot get at those bad feelings about himself. He is not even aware that they exist. But they are, nevertheless, chronically present in the form of a free-floating mass of anxiety, guilt, shame, and remorse."[2] Without intervention, those negative emotions lead to the next phase.
The Second Phase of Delusion -- Projection
The free-floating negative emotions caused by intense rationalization usually express themselves by attacking others. The most vitriolic attacks typically aim themselves at anyone who tries to convince the sinner that his or her actions are sinful or that he or she should stop the behavior. He quickly assigns them evil motives and/or evil actions and responds emotionally in proportion to the threat he perceives from them.
While these projections appear to be mean and spiteful, the self-deluded person sees them as vindicated and just. Just as rationalization must be an unconscious act to benefit the self-deluded, so must projection.
The Third Phase of Delusion -- Repression
The sinful behavior controlling the person tends to escalate during Phase Two. She sticks to her arguments and justifications for her behavior but they aren't enough anymore. She has to find a new way to cope with her sin. Without awareness of what she is doing, she moves into Phase Three -- Repression.
"They continue to rationalize some of their behaviors (those they can bear to face), and they repress those they cannot rationalize."[3] Every action he or she can no longer justify now just disappears from memory. The "amnesia" comes from completely psychological origins. She chooses not to remember, but the choice isn't made with the conscious mind; it's made in the subconscious. She's keeping herself from facing her own contradictions.
The Fourth Phase of Delusion -- Altered Memory
If one can convince himself that his spouse has always been a bad mate, or that life has been a man-made hell for years, then it's easy to rationalize that leaving that spouse isn't a sin; it's survival! A person in Phase Four doesn't alter memory about just the distant past: they've reached a stage of self-delusion that alters memories of things that happened recently. It's the next logical step after Repression. If he can't forget an act, he alters the interpretation of what happened so that it justifies the act.
It's not important that you understand all the nuances of self-delusion but you must grasp the two basic points we made about them. First, the self-deluded person is incapable of extricating him- or herself from the controlling sin. Second, you should not let the addicted sinner's rationalizations and defenses cause you to lose your focus during the intervention.
Deciding to Intervene in the Delusion
The key is to act NOW. Every day you wait makes the situation worse, allowing another phase of delusion to take over or to become stronger.
Performing the Intervention
In its simplest form, intervention is presenting reality in a receivable way to the person out of touch with it. Intervention breaks down the defenses long enough for truth to shine through.
Presenting reality means presenting specific facts about the addicted sinner's behavior and the consequences that have happened or will happen because of that behavior. The intervention must be objective, unequivocal, and caring. While intervention is confrontational by nature, it isn't punishment.
Intervention involves six steps.
First, Gather the Team
Recruit a group of three to five strong team members. Each team member should have some type of relationship with the addicted sinner that is being negatively affected by his or her actions, must be willing to risk the relationship with the addicted sinner, and have specific knowledge of unacceptable behavior on the part of the addicted sinner or specific knowledge of a negative consequence the addicted sinner will face if he or she continues to pursue the sin.
Second, Gather the Data
The intervention team must be prepared to convince the addicted sinner of his or her sin. The information with which to confront him must be specific incidents or consequences that will cause him to admit -- even momentarily -- his sinful behavior.
First present him or her with evidence of the sinful behavior. Everything must be in unsparing detail. "I saw you kiss her" instead of "I thought you were being a little too familiar."
Second, present him or her with the consequences that already have been or will be if the person continues in this behavior.
During the rehearsal each member reads each of his or her statements aloud to the group. The group either approves or amends the statement. They make sure that every written statement is devoid of antagonism, generalizations, and subjective opinions.
Take turns playing the part of the addicted sinner, responding to the group in every possible way that you can imagine the real addict might respond. With each reaction from the "sinner" the group discusses and decides what their best response to that dodge should be and who should make it.
Fourth, Finalize Details
Decide the date, time, and place for the intervention. Decide who will get the addicted sinner there and what method he or she will use. Know who will go first, who follows, and the like. Know who will give each response to anticipated reactions. Know who will give the response to any unanticipated reaction. Set every detail and then make them happen.
Fifth, Do the Intervention
Do the intervention just as rehearsed.
Of course, the prayer that went into the preparation for this meeting will bring the wisdom of God, as He promised. Bathe the process in prayer from beginning to end and the results should be that the person finally has a moment of spiritual lucidity.
Sixth Step, Be Willing to Do It Again
If you recall that the person is addicted to sin and that the sin so controls her that she isn't thinking clearly, you won't let yourself become too discouraged by apparent failure. If the intervention fails to get the addicted sinner on the path to healing, reconvene the team and do it again. Gather more data -- both of actions and consequences -- and give it another try. If that doesn't work, try it again.
Keep doing the interventions until the person starts the path of healing.
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My feeling is that the intervention probably has to come from someone other than the LBS; perhaps a clinging boomerang would listen to the LBS, but it seems to me that in cases where the MLCer (or whoever else) doesn't fear losing the LBS then that person would have no clout. Clout is important; the intervention IMO needs to come from someone the MLCer respects.
Adult children might be candidates, but rarely younger ones, as they are too entangled emotionally. If all team members need to be willing to risk their r with the person, children rarely are, and younger ones shouldn't be made to choose. IMO this is only appropriate in cases of severe substance abuse, etc.
In theory if the LBS really can treat the MLCer as if they were a person that needed help rather than their spouse it might work; the LBS would have to be completely independent IMO, financially as well as otherwise....
But the theory is good, I think; I also think, like Bewildered says, that it is a combination of fate/god/timing, etc. It is somewhat beyond the control of the LBS simply because we can't know what else is going on in their lives, all of which will have an impact.
I remember back many years ago when I was behaving badly; no one every attempted a "formal" intervention, but many tried to say things; it was the one friend who kept on doing so that eventually made an impression, but my coming out of it still wasn't directly due to that.
I know that with my alcoholic father a formal intervention was done, which did result in him getting help; with an alcoholic friend of my brother's it had no impact 5 years ago; earlier this year he did agree to seek help, but still wasn't willing to do the work needed himself. So with him it will take a lot more.
And with my father, he is now also doing some things which result in a fractured family (not adultery), but absolutely doesn't think he is doing anything wrong so won't listen one iota. Mainly because the person he cares most about doesn't feel there's a problem.
So, sorry about the long-windedness, I do think it comes down to the person/s doing the intervention being ones that the "sinner" for lack of a better word really respects.
??
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Performing the Intervention
In its simplest form, intervention is presenting reality in a receivable way to the person out of touch with it. Intervention breaks down the defenses long enough for truth to shine through.
Presenting reality means presenting specific facts about the addicted sinner's behavior and the consequences that have happened or will happen because of that behavior. The intervention must be objective, unequivocal, and caring. While intervention is confrontational by nature, it isn't punishment.
Intervention involves six steps.
First, Gather the Team
Recruit a group of three to five strong team members. Each team member should have some type of relationship with the addicted sinner that is being negatively affected by his or her actions, must be willing to risk the relationship with the addicted sinner, and have specific knowledge of unacceptable behavior on the part of the addicted sinner or specific knowledge of a negative consequence the addicted sinner will face if he or she continues to pursue the sin.
Second, Gather the Data
The intervention team must be prepared to convince the addicted sinner of his or her sin. The information with which to confront him must be specific incidents or consequences that will cause him to admit -- even momentarily -- his sinful behavior.
First present him or her with evidence of the sinful behavior. Everything must be in unsparing detail. "I saw you kiss her" instead of "I thought you were being a little too familiar."
Second, present him or her with the consequences that already have been or will be if the person continues in this behavior.
During the rehearsal each member reads each of his or her statements aloud to the group. The group either approves or amends the statement. They make sure that every written statement is devoid of antagonism, generalizations, and subjective opinions.
Take turns playing the part of the addicted sinner, responding to the group in every possible way that you can imagine the real addict might respond. With each reaction from the "sinner" the group discusses and decides what their best response to that dodge should be and who should make it.
Fourth, Finalize Details
Decide the date, time, and place for the intervention. Decide who will get the addicted sinner there and what method he or she will use. Know who will go first, who follows, and the like. Know who will give each response to anticipated reactions. Know who will give the response to any unanticipated reaction. Set every detail and then make them happen.
Fifth, Do the Intervention
Do the intervention just as rehearsed.
Of course, the prayer that went into the preparation for this meeting will bring the wisdom of God, as He promised. Bathe the process in prayer from beginning to end and the results should be that the person finally has a moment of spiritual lucidity.
Sixth Step, Be Willing to Do It Again
If you recall that the person is addicted to sin and that the sin so controls her that she isn't thinking clearly, you won't let yourself become too discouraged by apparent failure. If the intervention fails to get the addicted sinner on the path to healing, reconvene the team and do it again. Gather more data -- both of actions and consequences -- and give it another try. If that doesn't work, try it again.
Keep doing the interventions until the person starts the path of healing.
Is this based on WAS or MLC or both? My major concern for this is that it appears that we can all get our group of people together and then tell the MLCer all their sins until they repent.
If you are a newbie then you are a long way from this place and need to learn about MLC and detachment. There is no easy path through the tunnel it takes time, patience and detachment.
Even as a seasoned LBS (not sure if I can call myself that lol) I am sceptical about this intervention. We are told to detach and let go. But this goes to the other extreme of gathering your friends to intervene. IMO you wouldn't see the MLCer for dust.
Follow your intuition to the letter it will never let you down. Hand your MLCer over to God/Universe and get out of the way i.e detach, let the rope go, get on with your life. When the time is right you will know what to say and when to intervene. And it isn't always us. Other people in the MLCers life also have a potential role to play, when the time is right.
IMO the intervention part gives the impression that you can move your MLCer along and out of the tunnel. If it doesn't work the first time then do again and repeat until it does. Well it might help but what you don't want is an MLCer coming home to soon before facing the necessary issues and then disappearing at a later date. If YOU felt it was right to intervene and your MLCer is still in replay then that gives them further justification to run in the opposite direction.
Our MLCers have to heal and continue on their journey. I follow my intuition closely and it hasn't let me down yet. My children have intervened when they think it is right. The structure of the 'intervention' as identified sounds to structured and to organised plus manipulative. No one knows from moment to moment what our MLC has in their heads. I agree if by chance an MLCer starts to talk to you then you have an opportunity. But otherwise I think each MLCer is so individual that detaching and acting on your own intuition is the only way forward plus truly getting out of the way of the process.
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Is this based on WAS or MLC or both? My major concern for this is that it appears that we can all get our group of people together and then tell the MLCer all their sins until they repent.
If you are a newbie then you are a long way from this place and need to learn about MLC and detachment. There is no easy path through the tunnel it takes time, patience and detachment.
I think this might work for a plain old affair, or maybe some other addiction.
But what about the MLC'er that has not done any sinning or just plain wants out of the marriage?
Is that a sin to want to be divorced with no other divorcable offense?
What we see with most MLC's is that nothing that anyone else DOES makes any difference.
Only when the MLC has run its course can some sort of action be taken.
I think that JUST ASKING is corect in what she has stated above.
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Yes, it is a sin to "just want to be divorced." God hates divorce - hates it!! Go read Malachi 2. That person is violating the marriage covenant, breaking a life-long vow to God and to his/her spouse, abandoning his children, destroying his/her family unit, the list goes on! And, all of it is sin, brought on by the unbelievable selfishness of the MLCer. God will just not allow that MLCer to experience permanent joy, peace, happiness, and love when it was obtained by leaving others' lives in shambles. God may allow the MLCer to temporarily think they are happy for a season, but in God's time, all will reap what they have sown.
Just wanted to say that one of the reasons the world's divorce rate is so high is because so many think that it is NOT a sin to just want out of a marriage. So many think marriage vows are no big deal. Well they are to God and what you or I think will not matter one iota when we stand before our creator. What God thinks is what we will be judged by. God makes it clear in his Word what his will is for marriage and he hates - absolutely hates - divorce. And so should you and I.
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I would have never been able to assemble 4-5 people willing to do this who had a relationship with H. My friends and family would have been willing and eager to help, but H has surrounded himself with people who will encourage him to go "be happy" and cut off contact with those who disagree with his new value system. As the article said, I have found the men of the church are too afraid/hesitant to get involved and instead stand back and "pray" for the family as it's torn apart.
It's a method that could be worth trying, but I bet finding a LBS with a group willing to get involved in this way is very rare.
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Faith,
I so agree with you!
I bet finding a LBS with a group willing to get involved in this way is very rare.
That is why I think the intervention must be Spirit driven and we (LBSs) are to be in the prayer closet - that is where battles are won...
Jesus, help us
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Truth, Lies and Self-Deception
None of us are beyond deceiving ourselves.
Published on November 30, 2008 by Dr. Stephen A. Diamond, Ph.D. in Evil Deeds
Folie a deux is an idiomatic French expression meaning "craziness of two." This fascinating syndrome is referred to diagnostically in the American Psychiatric Association's DSM-IV-TR as Shared Psychotic Disorder, one of several types of psychosis. How common is this condition, what causes it, and what can it teach us about the nature and perils of self-deception?
A delusion is, by definition, a psychotic symptom: a fixed, false, irrational conviction not comporting with objective reality but clung to vehemently nonetheless. Shared Psychotic Disorder refers to the onset of such a delusional state of mind in someone as a consequence of close relationship with another person already suffering from psychosis. Yes, in this sense, psychosis can be communicable. This relatively rare mental disorder illustrates two vital truths: Psychosis--contrary to the conventional mainstream view--is most often not merely the manifestation of biochemical aberration or a "broken brain," but a fundamentally psychological phenomenon. And, as such, it demonstrates the dangerous degree to which the human mind is capable of massive self-deception. It proves the awesome power of psychology.
None of us are beyond deceiving ourselves. Such self-deception, which in its most extreme and pathological forms we deem delusional, is much more pervasive than most imagine. Consider the ordinary example of some heated conflict with a spouse, lover, relative or close friend. How is it that after the fact, each participant can have a completely contradictory version of what happened? Objectively speaking, first A happened, then B occurred, then C was said, D followed, etc. But what if the objective facts or our own behavior don't comport well with how we see ourselves? We distort the facts to support our particular point of view and to sustain our beliefs about the kind of person we are or want to be. When the objective facts threaten the ego and its integrity, we experience what social psychologists call "confirmation bias," a kind of cognitive dissonance known more recently as "Morton's Demon." We dismiss certain facts incompatible with our myth of ourselves in favor of other less threatening and more corroborative ones. We twist the truth. And we become convinced of the veracity of this twisted truth. And we do all this unconsciously. We don't even know we're doing it. This goes beyond mere "cognitive distortion," resulting in a radical rewriting of history and reality for the purpose of preserving our precious self-image or persona. In its most extreme form, such self-deception can lead to certain delusional beliefs symptomatic of psychosis. This illustrates clearly the powerful unconscious cognitive component of psychotic disorders of various kinds.
Take the current Casey Anthony case (see my previous post). Casey Anthony is charged with the first-degree murder of her missing two-year-old daughter, Caylee. From the start, Casey has denied any culpability, claiming steadfastly that her daughter was abducted by her babysitter. Is this the objective truth? Or is it a lie? If it is a lie, is it a conscious lie or an unconscious one? In other words, does Casey know she's lying? Or does she actually believe the lie? If she turns out to be completely convinced that the lie is true, is she really lying? Or is she telling the truth as she sees it? If the latter turns out to be the case, then Casey could be considered delusional. From a forensic psychology perspective, this could conceivably become a key component of her legal defense.
But what of Casey's parents, especially her mother, Cindy Anthony? Both seem convinced that Casey did not harm their granddaughter and is telling authorities the truth. Is this a conscious show of support and solidarity for their daughter, an effort to protect her from abandonment and prosecution? Are they lying? Do they speak of Casey's innocence outwardly but inwardly believe in her guilt? Or are they lying to themselves? Denial is a potent form of self-deception, an unconscious psychological defense mechanism designed to ward off unacceptable or inconvenient truths. Could Casey Anthony's parents be, perhaps like her, so deeply in denial that they have introjected their daughter's delusional belief about what happened, becoming enmeshed in a folie a trois?
While such cases are extreme, this sort of symbiotic dynamic is present in most relationships to some extent, with partners regularly entering into and supporting the subjective reality of the other. Even when that necessitates deceiving themselves to do it. Evidence of this can be commonly seen in co-dependent relationships in which the severity of abusive behavior or substance abuse or mental illness in one person is minimized by the other. This insidious self-deception occurs not only in couples, but in families, friendships, groups, religious cults, political parties and entire countries. Cognitive dissonance leads us to disregard or negate all that could contradict our cherished self-image or insult our personal or collective narcissism. So the truth we see is highly selective, serving to reinforce primarily our experience of ourselves as good, kind, honest, religious, spiritual, loving, etc. Or, in some cases, confirmation bias or Morton's Demon can even lead to the rejection of positive qualities which seem incompatible with one's deeply entrenched negative view of oneself, thus destructively perpetuating it.
Interestingly, when the individuals in a folie a deux are eventually separated, the person who adopted the other's delusional beliefs typically no longer exhibits psychotic symptoms, while the original and more dominant delusional partner (the "inducer" or "primary case") remains psychotic. Why is that? It is due partially to the fact that the person who takes on another's delusional system is somewhat more psychologically intact compared to the inducer to begin with. Therefore, when removed from the delusional inducer's direct influence, they no longer fully partake in nor endorse his or her distorted subjective reality. Indeed, they may have passively or even lovingly joined with the other for the sake of solidarity and support in his or her delusional version of reality precisely so as not to abandon or be abandoned by the other. A concrete illustration of this dynamic can be seen in cults of various kinds, in which passive followers fanatically internalize the charismatic leader's grandiose and paranoid delusions. Think Charles Manson, Jim Jones, David Koresh, Adolf Hitler, Osama bin Laden and others. If and when susceptible followers leave the cult, these symptoms tend to diminish over time.
In truth, we deceive ourselves about a great many matters, from bad behavior, to how we feel, to the ever present existential fact of death. Such self-deception is fundamentally related to Freud's broad conception of the unconscious--the unknown aspects of our psyche--and specifically to Jung's notion of the shadow: those unacceptable traits and tendencies in ourselves we hide from both others and ourselves. This very capacity to deny our own selfishness, fears, cruelty and complicity in evil-- unconsciousness-- is itself a treacherous sort of self-deception. Which is why growing gradually more conscious during the course of psychotherapy can be a shocking, painful and sobering process. C. G. Jung noted the therapeutic importance of consciously tolerating the "tension of opposites" we today term "cognitive dissonance," and that such unadulterated confrontation with the truth about oneself is almost always initially experienced as an insult to the ego--a devastating blow to our narcissism. No wonder we so fervently resist this process. It takes considerable courage and commitment to be brutally honest with oneself. But it is precisely this willingness to stop our chronic self-deception and face the truth that finally sets us free.
B xx
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Told my H today that i cannot see him anymore. His response "thats a bull#*@% move, ill see you thursday when i pick up d16!" Major delusional thinking! He moved out sept 2011, lies with ow and her 3 kids. Been playing cat and mouse with him. No more no more! Does not live in reality which is my fault but finally ready to give a major dose of reality 101!
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This was very helpful insight! Thanks for sharing. The delusion bug has bitten many men in midlife around here, not necessarily those in crisis. This helps to take the frustration out of the equation because any way you look at their "logic", it doesn't add up. But oh how convincing they can be.
Thanks again.
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I would have never been able to assemble 4-5 people willing to do this who had a relationship with H. My friends and family would have been willing and eager to help, but H has surrounded himself with people who will encourage him to go "be happy" and cut off contact with those who disagree with his new value system. As the article said, I have found the men of the church are too afraid/hesitant to get involved and instead stand back and "pray" for the family as it's torn apart.
It's a method that could be worth trying, but I bet finding a LBS with a group willing to get involved in this way is very rare.
I totally agree with you here. I read this article earlier on in my H's crisis and wanted to recruit friends/family to do an intervention but at the end of the day, my H would not have cared or gone along with it...plus I don't know that I would have been able to even get a pastor over there to help intervene! My H also cut off contact with people who disagree with him. A man that he REALLY respects and thought a lot of was a father-figure to me (so my family) and he tried to reach out to my H and was rebuffed. This man was relentless in trying to contact my H too and the few minutes he finally got him on the phone, my H promised to call him back and never did and then ignored his calls. THIS is a man who is not easily ignored and who it SHOCKS me that my H would blatantly disrespect him in that way. I'm surprised he didn't at least hear him out and then graciously tell him he was wrong, but to fully ignore him was actually a shock to me. IF my H allows himself to wake up, it's going to be pretty painful for him to realize and face the destruction he has caused. It's so ridiculous. The intervention sounds great in theory, but I have to wonder how many actually take place and then, are successful?!?! The process of self-delusion seems spot on though...from what I can tell.
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If you scroll down you will see a graph that indicates what a persons body language indicates......we all know MLCer lie well there's some info on the way in which people use their left and right eyes that this indicate whether their telling the truth or not...........some may find this useful others may not but thought i would share it anyway xxxxxxxxxxx
http://www.businessballs.com/body-language.htm
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to quote from with hope;
My H also cut off contact with people who disagree with him.
from the time he left until recently this was my 'H' too and he would run from anyone who doesn't like the him well the he is now !
That included our children, our/his friends, colleagues, etc Recently there are baby steps towards them but he gets spooked I think as one friend (very close friend of mine) he keeps making arrangements to see him then cancelling and then being difficult to get hold of by friend to rearrange then the dance begins again with 'H' being not stop at him to sort a time/date out then cancelling!!!!
Luckily friend knows the situ or he would knock it on the head as his loyally is to me (ex B/F and been friends for 30 years) but he is curious to see where this goes - I don't get involved - he used to respect 'H', so he I suppose like me want's him to sort himself out?
My H is delusional as he says things that I know to be incorrect and when I say but I thought '''''' he says Oh you may be right????
The crisis goes on ................ and on ................ and on .................... getting tiresome now !!!
love B xx
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Well, this article made me see things more clearly
What stood out for me that "a group of crisis" is needed to make them see things more clearly. And I think this is what really needs to happen
My H has gambled in the past, not all the time but longer periods with sober intervals. i tried everything to make him stop, he even agreed to go and see a counselor and this helped for a while but he always returned to gambling
What made him stop was after we opened the restaurant, someone had recognized him as new owner of the restaurant while he was gambling. My H was shocked by It. And this was it, he never gambled afterwards and this is more than 6 years now.
i think something, some external factor, needs to happen
E
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I believe if we cant muster up people this article suggests ....then we as the wife/partner/hubby should do what we can........i remember back in the beginning of BD you know when your in shock and their rewriting history ......i was very quiet .i truly believed that my h leaving was my fault....i walked on eggshells for many months and only told 2 people what was happening............i think i was in some sort of delusional state it wasn’t until i told other people what had and repeated everything that h had rewritten that these people were able to convince me (after maybe 1000 times of saying i wasn’t the problem and never was) h was lying and blaming me in order to make himself feel better and to reduce his guilt................so the same way these people were able to convince me i wasn’t the bad the one .......i suppose the same can happen for the MLCer...........i went out the other night and saw one of my friends........she said i didn’t know you and h had broken up and i said we didn’t break up i threw him out cos he was cheating on me when i was at uni.......she said i saw him with his new GF....i said oh yeah that’s the same one who helped destroy my family........she was like >:( >:( >:( >:( she said i cant believe it you two were so strong.............she called her a owr and homewrecker ....................up til this point i never told outside people what happened...........a few days later i texted h and put him straight and said the next time someone asks why were not together be truthful...........don’t tell them we broke up tell them i threw you out because you were cheating with the homewrecker your with.....no reply .............i think the delusional part of the brain thinks what their saying is right that yes we did break up but its able to twist the truth to fit..........i believe now the more people that know the truth the more h cant run/hide from it.........ive protected him for so long and wish i had told everyone from the beginning........would it have made a difference i don’t know but because i protected h due to being i ashamed did i also protect him from having to face others that may have been able to helpxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx xxxxxxxxxxxx
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I, too, see that I have "protected" my H, even though I thought I wasn't doing so. My brother pointed that out to me recently. But that could also be because I haven't been bashing him.
But I have always been very clear that we didn't "separate amicably" as he would have people believe; I've always set anyone who has said that straight.
I'm thinking about this regarding myself in other ways, though, about how I see my H. About what he is and isn't doing during this MLC. Must be careful not to delude myself that he isn't behaving as badly as he is. For example, for a long time, years in fact, I believed him when he said there wasn't anyone else, when in fact there had been lots of "someone elses". It took a while to realise he was trying to gaslight me, and to get my head round that, as I just didn't want to believe it about him.
Seeing him more clearly (the MLC him, not the H I believe is in there) helps keep me more detached, actually. And keeps my head on better when serious matters such as finances come up.
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Found this thought i would share xxxxxxxxx
http://outofthefog.net/
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WGH
I actually have read this...even have it saved to my favs..LOL
Its pretty insightful...Thanks for sharing..
Syn
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Thanks for posting... Since BD, I have thought that my STBXW may have an Avoidant Personality Disorder. Now, I am even more convinced. So many of the symptoms are evident.
I never knew it until BD, I just thought that this was somewhat normal, but to think about it, maybe it wasn't so normal, but being with her since I was 20 years old, I didn't know anything else.
I feel sorry for her, but she doesn't want me around.
Our D likely final next week. If I knew about this disorder, but she still loved me, I would still continue to want to be with her, and we can still have a happy family.
I'm sure many wish to have a family where they are blessed with 2 healthy children and a caring and responsible husband.
But not my W, she wants to be alone....
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Thanks WGH I could look at this F.O.G Article all day. Soooo interesting.
Especially since they say a lot of OW/OM might have that...I like the Dependent Personality Disorder for my Hs OW. After reading all of RCRs articles about OPs and espcially Clingy Boomerangs. I think RCR may have said CBs attract BPDs. Or it may be one theory. Makes a lot of sense. Scarey. Still I am so glad there is an explanation for all of this weird troubling behavior. :o
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I was thinking about this subject again while reading "Emotional Bull$hit", by Carl Alasko -- he talks a lot about delusion as one of the "toxic trio" that ruin lives. (denial, delusion, blame).
It's a good read, and written clearly, not overly academically, so that it makes a lot of sense to the lay reader.
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Hey T & L....... just been doing some research on emotional bullsh$t and found this that's related to the book your reading..........my h would score on each one these :o :o :o......but then we knew that lol ;) ;) ;) xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
http://www.emotionalbs.com/selftest.html
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Just done the test on h's behalf he scored 80....... The scoring system says : 40+Points: Your life and relationships are currently in serious danger..........does this mean his relationship with o/w is too cos hes lying to her too?? xxxxxxx
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WGH
My H scored 70!
As their relationship is with OW so I assume their relationship is in serious danger ::)
xx
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Ha Buggy I didn't paste the website address lol ::) ::) ::).............glad you noticed no one else did lol :o :o :o.........see below Buggy ;D ;D ;D xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
http://www.drugrehabwiki.com/wiki/Trauma_echo
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This reminded me of something I have felt strongly in this crisis...my H was frustrated (pre BD) because he had so much discontent and yet his external life did not provide him with reasons for it..good wife...beautiful kids...a house..a job..yadyayadydydyayada....its almost like there is a certain satisfaction now that his external life gives him reasons for his misery...this is kind of like self-injury..whereby a person inflicts physical pain on themselves to realease the tension of emotional/psych pain...it's of course temporary...and many are so afraid of just feeling the pain.
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This is interesting; thank you for posting. I'd be very interested in more; I've been wondering about myself in this regard.
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Really enjoyed the discussion on this thread.
The article's description of the "process" re self delusion is spot on to me. It fits my H exactly.
But like many have said, intervention doesn't seem to be a viable option in the case of an MLCer.
While I completely agree that the MLC affair is an addiction and has all the hallmarks of addictive behavior, I don't think a standard type intervention would have much influence. And, like several here have said, where can you get 4 or 5 people who have that strong of an influence with the MLCer willing and capable of doing one?
In the case of an alcoholic or compulsive gambler, if an intervention isn't done, or the addict doesn't seek help (such as a 12 step program) on their own, the behavior is most likely to continue and to get worse until the addict "hits bottom."
But not all addicts end up on the street, dead, or in recovery. Many just keep going and going, suffering the consequences of their behavior throughout their lives. Haven't we all known people who were alcoholics all their lives, who died alcoholics?
So I suspect it is with the MLCer and their behavior. Some "wake up" and try to heal the destruction they've caused (in other words, they're like the addict who enters and stays in a 12-step program) and some continue on with their delusional lives (abandon their families/marry the OW/continue on to another OW and repeat the process.)
Problem is I don't see any way of "predicting" what an individual MLCer will eventually chose to do. That's one of the biggest challenges of the LBS. Waiting and watching--from the position of detachment--to see what "choice" the MLCer makes in the long run. We won't know for a very long time what the outcome will be in most of our cases.
And the waiting is hard.
TMHP
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TMHP,
Problem is I don't see any way of "predicting" what an individual MLCer will eventually chose to do. That's one of the biggest challenges of the LBS. Waiting and watching--from the position of detachment--to see what "choice" the MLCer makes in the long run. We won't know for a very long time what the outcome will be in most of our cases.
And the waiting is hard.
TMHP
I agree...
Interestingly, my BIL (h.'s older brother) is the life-long alcoholic who will probably die an alcoholic... so, in a way I understand what you say about addicts who are unable to stay in a 12-step program - I still say that while there is life, there is hope... so even if the present prognosis is negative, I am one of the people who still hold out hope for him. I guess it is how I feel about my h. too. Is that my 'self-delusion', I wonder?
So I just carry on waiting and watching ::) ::)
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Mitz,
Definitely agree with you that "where's there's life there's hope." As a 12-stepper myself, I've read the Big Book's stories of recovered alcoholics many times. There are some amazing stories of people whom everyone had given up on as hopeless drunks who did recover--and do everyday.
And I don't think we suffering from self-delusion to hold out hope for our MLCers. HB always said that if you still love your MLCer there's hope.
But oh how I hate the waiting and watching!
TMHP
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Thought this might be interesting for off my rocker....could explain trauma echo and why her h resorted to self harm xxxxxxxxx
http://www.internet-of-the-mind.com/self-harm.html
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This one is really informative too ..read the whole article though xxxxxxxxxx
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Don't know what happened i did paste it lol il try again .......hopefully see below:
http://www.internet-of-the-mind.com/addictive_personality.html
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I'm finding this topic interesting; I've come to realise that this really can have a huge effect on us. This is one article that I read; it's not in-depth, but it certainly ticks the boxes....
http://helpguide.org/mental/emotional_psychological_trauma.htm
I'm pulling out a few relevant bits to post here:
An event will most likely lead to emotional or psychological trauma if:
It happened unexpectedly.
You were unprepared for it.
You felt powerless to prevent it.
It happened repeatedly.
Someone was intentionally cruel.
It happened in childhood.
Emotional and psychological trauma can be caused by single-blow, one-time events, such as a horrible accident, a natural disaster, or a violent attack. Trauma can also stem from ongoing, relentless stress, such as living in a crime-ridden neighborhood or struggling with cancer.
and
A number of risk factors make people susceptible to emotional and psychological trauma. People are more likely to be traumatized by a stressful experience if they’re already under a heavy stress load or have recently suffered a series of losses.
People are also more likely to be traumatized by a new situation if they’ve been traumatized before – especially if the earlier trauma occurred in childhood.
For me, this might explain why my H's MLC is causing me what seems like more distress than "average", if there is such a thing -- I was already under a lot of stress, and it's me, not him, that had the stressful childhood.
For me also, the way things have been repeated over and over again in my sitch is clearly contributing; highlighting the importance of detaching.... but it's intentional cruelty that's the worst. Masked by a smile, which makes it doubly worse.
For others, it might explain more about how their spouses are behaving.
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We are limited to 3 main ways of dealing with trauma echoes. We can harm ourselves, we can harm others or we can deal with them in a healthy way. Developing a coping strategy to deal with them in a healthy way is a big part of Trauma-based Cognitive Behavioral Therapy, which I adhere to. The triggers may always be there, but we can lessen the impact of them substantially. One theory of MLC is that our spouses lacked the necessary coping skills to deal with their own trauma echoes, which may have been extremely strong if they were formed in childhood. Whether or not they are dealing with them by hurting themselves or others is a philosophical question as most would say they are not intentionally hurting others or themselves.
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Thundarr, any more info you could post about trauma-based CBT would be appreciated; this is something I need to deal with right now.
I haven't gone the self-harm route, and I haven't thrown things at others (although this explains my S's rages), but still would like to work on this more.
In my H's case he more closely fits the "addictive personality" that is described here
http://www.internet-of-the-mind.com/addictive_personality.html
(thanks, WGH); it's hard to know if he is being deliberately cruel to me, though.
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Hi T&L not sure if this will helps its a recent too from 2012 ...........xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
http://www.goodtherapy.org/trauma-focused-cognitive-behavioral-therapy.html
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Assuming that our MCLers lacked the necessary coping skills to deal with trauma echoes is something I manage to do. But I think they hurt us intentionally. They know exactly what upsets the LBS the most; they know our buttons and how to push them. They do it on purpose to engage us in order for them to feed themselves out of the emotional drama. As for hurting themselves, that I think in most MCLers is not intentional. At first they don’t realise they are hurting themselves as well.
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They know exactly what upsets the LBS the most
I'm inclined to agree with you there; I think my H's latest letter (mid-January) was designed to do just that. It was still all about him, but really twisted the knife.
As to why he does it, I'm not sure -- to feed themselves out of the emotional drama makes sense in a lot of cases; in one of RCR's articles she says that they do it to drive home the point to the LBS -- the "why won't she get it" thing.
I guess it also lets them put responsibility elsewhere rather than on themselves?
But that gets off the topic.
Thanks for that article, WGH; that focuses on children, but of course the principles are the same. I wonder how it differs in cases of lower-level repeated emotional trauma, rather than outright abuse?
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Trust, I really think they do it deliberately to hurt us. Do they know why they are doing it? Probably not. All they know, I think, is such and such will hurt us the most. That is an that, for some reason, their minds keep.
Part I think it is to feed the emotional drama. They are always trying to engage us and if we don’t, they get frustrated. When they do they may escalate their antics/actions or they may get to a point where they give up. Well, but maybe we get it and just don’t let them know we get it…or we get it and just don’t care...
Putting responsabillity elsewhere rather than on themselves is a thing they do. That helps them dealing with the stuff they make and justifying OW/OM or justify to OW/OM why they left us, etc.
I’m not a psychologist, but i guess how it may differ in cases of lower-level repeated emotional trauma from outright abuse is that on the first the person may not be aware that they suffered any trauma while on the second the abuse was obvious and very visible. So, maybe the way of processing things is different. Also, if you are not aware that you suffered trauma it may be harder to realise you are dealing with the effects of a traumatic experience?...
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Putting responsabillity elsewhere rather than on themselves is a thing they do. That helps them dealing with the stuff they make and justifying OW/OM or justify to OW/OM why they left us, etc.
Absolutely -- that's crystal clear. I guess it's shocking to me that it's still going on even after all this time.
And I know that he does know what hurts me most, and so he does that.... does he know why? Probably it's back down to putting responsibility elsewhere. I read somewhere that, for example, telling someone they made you feel bad meant that the person saying so had poor personal boundaries, not knowing where they stopped and the other began. Another hallmark of MLCers, esp. if you read that famous list that's on the resources thread....
It's also about control; if they can hurt you where it hurts most they can control you....
And I agree about the lower-level repeated trauma; it's not so visible, so you question your own sanity more, rather than if it's so very obvious (not that I would wish that on anyone....) it's easier, if that can be said, to see that it's really nuts.
FWIW, I am starting to recognise that I'm dealing with effects from the repeated trauma; it's bringing up childhood things as well.... but at least I can take steps now.
x
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WGH
thank you for posting these links... during my h last hospital stay I was actually looking ito a rehab that used CBT as a major part of recovery for substance abuse and mental illness... unfortunately my h got his running shoes on again to "cure" himself.
thank you for posting them. I've got them bookmarked in case the MLC tide turns again :)
OMR
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I watched this and it made me cry.........haven't looked at the rest of the site yet but thought it may be of interest for the guys especially those who need to see return stories with regards to the female............not sure if its MLC but from the description from her and her h it could well be xxxxxxxxxxxx
http://powertochange.com/iamsecond/i-do-again
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WGH is right. Guys be sure you download & read the sample chapter of Cheryl's book:
http://www.hopeformarriages.com/resources/
She was sure she had found her soulmate and wanted a divorce from her h. So sure!!
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Divorced 7 Years!!!! Then said, "I Do" Again! Thanks for sharing WGH!
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Oh oh oh, please tell us the names of books/movies/DVDs/cassettes/brochures/papyrus that have stories with good endings for us wives with wayward husbands. Love to hear they came home before they officially separated, divorced. Or after divorced with or without an AP involved.
Love a very happy ending. Thank you.
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7 years? Forget that!! I cannot endure 7 years of this, and honestly take one step at a time still. No can do.
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7 years? Forget that!! I cannot endure 7 years of this, and honestly take one step at a time still. No can do.
Thundarr
RCR wrote in one of your threads about the influence you can have over others. Here was part of your response. Certainly you can post whatever you feel, but influence is not something to be lightly regarded.
I've often been brutally honest about what I was thinking and feeling over the past few months, and in real life the ones I vent to have ensured their own safety nets so that no vicarious traumatization occurs. That is not the case with everyone here, and I see now how I have come across to others. I will have to be more cautious going forward as the last thing I would ever want to do is to make someone who is feeling as bad as I have feel even worse. That goes against everything I believe in, as well as the credo we live by: "Do No Harm." It is beyond time for me to shift my focus away from my W and more to doing what I do best (or at least ASPIRE to do best) which is to help guide others to a better place. I may still be blunt at times, as I am in RL, but just as Ready has perfected so well it will be with a gentle hand.
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DGU,
I understand what you are saying but I doubt that many would look to stand for 7 years. There are covenant keepers here, and my own M is a covenant marriage, but no one should be expected to stand for that length of time especially given many of the circumstances. My D11 would be an adult, and I would not want her to go that long without a mother in her life.
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There are covenant keepers here, and my own M is a covenant marriage, but no one should be expected to stand for that length of time especially given many of the circumstances.
Maybe I'm unclear on the concept of covenant marriages, but I thought that was exactly what you were agreeing to when you made your marriage a covenant marriage.
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Still standing,
You are not unclear, yet I believe at some point the person with whom the covenant was made ceases to exist. Just as death ends the covenant, so too do I believe that death of the spirit or identity should also release one from the covenant. The WAS will either have to answer for the breaking of the covenant someday, or will be forgiven if they truly had no control. If it becomes clear to me that my W will never return, or that she will never return to being the woman I married then I would no longer stand. I don't know when that will be, or if it will (of course I hope it doesn't happen) but that is my belief. Is the covenant made with the body or the soul? As I posted on my thread, I feel my W is dead. Will she be resurrected? As my friend HFF on LT says, only God knows and only time will tell.
Peace to you, Stillstanding.
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Thundarr,
I need to ask a question here...one of my D's is 11 and I have been at this quite a while longer than you, with my husband being the one out in another world...
How would your standing/not standing affect whether or not you daughter has her mother in her life?
hugs,
L
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My W has rarely acted as a mother from the past 10 months and has rejected the little ones repeatedly. If, after a period of time, it becomes likely that she will not return to the role of mother in their lives and continues to reject them then I will be forced to choose in their best interest. I do not want my children growing up in a single parent home and without a mother figure, so if God leads me to marry again in the best interest of the kids then so I shall. Again, I hope that never comes to pass.
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You are not unclear, yet I believe at some point the person with whom the covenant was made ceases to exist. Just as death ends the covenant, so too do I believe that death of the spirit or identity should also release one from the covenant.
So who decides when that "death of identity" happens? I don't remember anything like that described in the Bible.
The WAS will either have to answer for the breaking of the covenant someday, or will be forgiven if they truly had no control.
Maybe I misunderstood you; are you talking about your wife divorcing you, or you divorcing your life? If it's the former, then I agree—if she breaks the covenant, then she has to accept the consequences. But what you said made it sound like you were going to be the one who ended the marriage. You can't hang the blame for that choice on your wife.
If it becomes clear to me that my W will never return, or that she will never return to being the woman I married then I would no longer stand. I don't know when that will be, or if it will (of course I hope it doesn't happen) but that is my belief.
How can you know that your wife will never return? Have you read ANYTHING anyone has said on here about MLC?
Yes, it is possible that your wife could be one of the few who never recover from their crisis, or recover but are so plagued with guilt that they don't feel like they can ever return. But it is unlikely that will be the case, and whether or not she can feel safe coming to you when the crisis is over depends on your actions.
I've used the metaphor of Orpheus and Eurydice before, to describe Standing for an MLCer. When Eurydice is killed by stepping on a poisoned snake, Orpheus travels to the underworld to reclaim her. Hades tells Orpheus that he can leave the underworld and have his wife back, but he has to walk in front of her and cannot look back to see if his wife is following him while they climb. If he makes it to the surface without looking back, then his wife will be returned to him. If he looks back, then she will return to the underworld forever.
As Orpheus makes his way to the surface, he can't hear anything behind him. He begins to doubt himself (Perhaps Hades is tricking him? Maybe something went wrong?) and, with the gates to the land of the living in sight, he turns around and sees his wife—for an instant, before she is whisked back to Hades.
I'm not saying that your wife will come out of the crisis in 7 years and a day. It might be 4 years; it might be 9. (9 years would be a bit extreme, as would 7.)
As I posted on my thread, I feel my W is dead.
Your wife is not dead; she is a living, breathing person who is in crisis. Your "feeling" is just that—it's a feeling; an opinion. Stop using your wife's crisis as an excuse for your own behavior.
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Still Standing......
You are, I would say, brutally honest......
I agree with what you have written.....although I don't know that I would say it in quite the same way. ;)
The metaphor of Orpheus and Eurydice is an excellent one! It fits the LBS and MLC quite well - as during this deep, dark middle - it can be very discouraging and there are few (if any) signs of progress. As RCR states, there is unlikely to be any signs.....as progress in beneath the surface.
Thundarr -
I remember first coming to this site and reading that ANY return within 2 years would be and EARLY return. And, I thought to myself - TWO YEARS! My H will be gone for 2 YEARS! It seemed an eternity. And, I guess it seemed so long to me - as all I could think about was WHEN? WHEN? WHEN?
As time goes by - and you learn about MLC - and think about your situation....or at least when I have thought about MY situation - I've realized - there is NO going back...only moving forward. And I've realized it isn't as simple as just returning....and I have given up concerning myself with WHEN? WHEN? WHEN?
I do not have a Covenant marriage.....and yet I can't see myself with someone else. Maybe I will feel differently in the future....I don't know. I do know that MLC takes time...(lots of time).....and I was married to my H for 30 years prior to BD.....A 30 year relationship, the love that I had for him...and for our family - is worth giving my H the time to deal with his issues and doing some needed work on myself, as well. ;)
I don't think you can ever KNOW that your spouse is not going to come out of it - or return. The only thing you can KNOW (I guess) is when YOU are done. And, for me, it's too early to even consider. I know the man I married, the man I had children with....the great father he was (but isn't NOW) - and that man was worth so much.....he really was.
A day at a time...that's all we can do.
Thundarr - I would bet that back after BD you would not or could not have seen yourself managing as you have.....dealing with your W, as she is right now. And yet, you have.
It seems to me that you vent.....and that's okay - just acknowledge that venting is what it is.......
One other thing.....I did accept that I could do nothing to shorten the time my H would spend in the tunnel.....and I truly believe that through my actions (reactions) - the only thing I could do was to prolong it.....so I leave him to it...
limitless
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Well, I read the book. (There's another thread on here about it) It is very insightful. I recommend it. It's a quick read, or at least was for me, perhaps because I was so interested.
No one plans to stand for 7 years. I would have NEVER thought I'd be here at 4 1/2 years. You take it one day at a time. You find love for your spouse. You remember the person they were and believe they could be again. You wait because it seems to be the right thing to do.
In the story... The wife left. She was unhappy. THought it was her H. She thought she was done. They got a divorce. The wife had a boyfriend. He moved across the country to live with her at which point she decided that she didn't want him, she wanted her marriage back. This was a year or two in. The wife then asked the exH if there was any chance they could get back together. He basically told her no way in he!!. They each then had to live their life as they saw fit. They saw each other because of the kids and were pleasant. The wife ended up deciding to stand. Felt called by God. Sort of dated a bit, but it didn't feel right to her. 5 more years passed. More or less the same with the H and then eventually they decided to give it another try. They used that time to grow in themselves. Realized that the other person wasn't the problem.
I know someone with a similar story, but a shorter timeline. Wife unhappy, left, divorced, lived with another guy, eventually decided that she loved her exH, went back, got remarried, had another kid, doing well.
It happens. But I really don't think it happens unless the people find God and their greater purpose in life.
Thundarr, you never know what you'll do. And don't think you're doing your kids any favors by finding them a new "Mom". Or don't kid yourself that you're doing it for the kids when you'll more likely be doing it for yourself. They have a Mom whether she's acting like it or not. One day at a time. It's too overwhelming otherwise.
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Interesting replies...
I think I would love to read the book and I share Loveisntweakness's opinion that I really don't think it happens unless the people find God and their greater purpose in life.
That said, StillStanding's application of the Orpheus and Eurydice metaphor is fantastic as is Limitless's reply, especially:It fits the LBS and MLC quite well - as during this deep, dark middle - it can be very discouraging and there are few (if any) signs of progress. As RCR states, there is unlikely to be any signs.....as progress in beneath the surface.
and I don't think you can ever KNOW that your spouse is not going to come out of it - or return. The only thing you can KNOW (I guess) is when YOU are done. And, for me, it's too early to even consider. I know the man I married, the man I had children with....the great father he was (but isn't NOW) - and that man was worth so much.....he really was.
A day at a time...that's all we can do.
Thundarr - I would bet that back after BD you would not or could not have seen yourself managing as you have.....dealing with your W, as she is right now. And yet, you have.
It seems to me that you vent.....and that's okay - just acknowledge that venting is what it is.......
One other thing.....I did accept that I could do nothing to shorten the time my H would spend in the tunnel.....and I truly believe that through my actions (reactions) - the only thing I could do was to prolong it.....so I leave him to it...
This is how I feel, so I continue ahead, asking God to help me work on me, change me into the person He wants me to be and keeping my eyes trained forward, I cannot look back to see what my h. is doing.
It is so uplifting to read about couples who get through, however it is quite discouraging to look at some of the timelines. So, yes, lets set our hand to the plough and not look back! I heard the other day a comment from a pastor who warns about mixing up the spheres of God's ability to restore and man's free will, he said we have to remember that God does not force Himself on anyone, but that His way of doing things is like the winter rains, the soft spring rains like it says in Hosea (He stood for many years for his wife!) 6:3Let us acknowledge the LORD;
let us press on to acknowledge him.
As surely as the sun rises,
he will appear;
he will come to us like the winter rains,
like the spring rains that water the earth.”
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Stillstanding - Limitless was very tactful in her choice of words describing your response, but I will be blunt. I feel it was patronizing and judgmental along with some degree of spite. I take no offense, however, as I understand we are all hurting and trying to find answers where often there are none. There should be no enemies here yet disagreements should be welcomed. We are all in this together, brother. I pray peace to you as you have struggled much longer than I.
I do feel that the W that I have is for all intents and purposes dead (at least right now). The picture I saw of the glowing and caring person is now part of history as that person has ceased to exist. Her eyes are dead and I detect no indication that she is not thinking logically at this time, and in fact her argument that the D or SA would be grounds to claim hardship on the loan modification was sound although not what I wanted to hear. I still hold out hope of R and that the D will not go through. In my state, if it is not finalized a year after being filed it is thrown out. She, of course, could re-file it but that would take extra effort and money. I feel she has realized the deadline (probably reminded by her lawyer boy BFF) and will be acting sooner rather than later. For some of us these months have not been about wondering if or waiting, but rather having to face the cold hard truth that our spouses have already taken actions to remove us from their lives permanently. Although we all handle things differently, the destruction of my family is not only a possibility any more but a strong probability. That changes alot of things.
While I am a man of faith and believe I have seen signs that God is watching over me and my family, the reality is that this cannot go on forever. I would never take the step of ending the marriage unless my W had passed the point of going back. She may be lost forever and never find the courage to face whatever is pushing her, or she may find someone who will ensure that the door to our family is shut forever. I owe it to my kids to give them the opportunity that she has so callously taken away - to grow up in a loving family that is not struggling for money always due to being a single-earner home. I have worked too hard for my kids to grow up doing without, and also cannot stomach them growing up without a mother who is there for them. Although my W is their biological mother, there is much more to it and if she rejects them further they have a right to have their needs met. I also do not plan to spend the rest of my life alone. If my marriage ends and I get to a point where it is clear there will be no R then I will be done. I believe God will send a sign that my M is over when it truly is, and as Mitz said God does not trump free will. It will ultimately be up to my W to either return or to be gone forever. It is no longer up to me.
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Stillstanding - Limitless was very tactful in her choice of words describing your response, but I will be blunt. I feel it was patronizing and judgmental along with some degree of spite. I take no offense, however, as I understand we are all hurting and trying to find answers where often there are none. There should be no enemies here yet disagreements should be welcomed. We are all in this together, brother. I pray peace to you as you have struggled much longer than I.
I do feel that the W that I have is for all intents and purposes dead (at least right now). The picture I saw of the glowing and caring person is now part of history as that person has ceased to exist. Her eyes are dead and I detect no indication that she is not thinking logically at this time, and in fact her argument that the D or SA would be grounds to claim hardship on the loan modification was sound although not what I wanted to hear. I still hold out hope of R and that the D will not go through. In my state, if it is not finalized a year after being filed it is thrown out. She, of course, could re-file it but that would take extra effort and money. I feel she has realized the deadline (probably reminded by her lawyer boy BFF) and will be acting sooner rather than later. For some of us these months have not been about wondering if or waiting, but rather having to face the cold hard truth that our spouses have already taken actions to remove us from their lives permanently. Although we all handle things differently, the destruction of my family is not only a possibility any more but a strong probability. That changes alot of things.
While I am a man of faith and believe I have seen signs that God is watching over me and my family, the reality is that this cannot go on forever. I would never take the step of ending the marriage unless my W had passed the point of going back. She may be lost forever and never find the courage to face whatever is pushing her, or she may find someone who will ensure that the door to our family is shut forever. I owe it to my kids to give them the opportunity that she has so callously taken away - to grow up in a loving family that is not struggling for money always due to being a single-earner home. I have worked too hard for my kids to grow up doing without, and also cannot stomach them growing up without a mother who is there for them. Although my W is their biological mother, there is much more to it and if she rejects them further they have a right to have their needs met. I also do not plan to spend the rest of my life alone. If my marriage ends and I get to a point where it is clear there will be no R then I will be done. I believe God will send a sign that my M is over when it truly is, and as Mitz said God does not trump free will. It will ultimately be up to my W to either return or to be gone forever. It is no longer up to me.
Thundarr,
I have responded to your post on your thread.
L
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WGH - Thanks so much for posting that link.
Although I know it is not likely in many situations, including mine, this shows that there can be hope, even if it means it's going to be 7 years later.
I agree with Thundarr in many respects. There will be some point in time that the LBSer will stop standing... 7 years seems like an extremely long time to stand. I know many on the board who are multiple year standers, and I applaud you. I am not. Unless your intention is to remain single, it would seem that you are giving up 7 precious years of your life.
Having been divorced for 2 weeks now, I feel the anger that the husband in the video felt. In the video, it seemed like the wife wanted to get back together pretty quickly after the divorce, but the husband was the one who could not forgive. I may not be able to if my W came back today too. In that respect, I will not call myself a stander.
I just think it's not as simple as - oops, I made a mistake, let me write a letter, and make it all ok.
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WGH - Thanks so much for posting that link.
Although I know it is not likely in many situations, including mine, this shows that there can be hope, even if it means it's going to be 7 years later.
I agree with Thundarr in many respects. There will be some point in time that the LBSer will stop standing... 7 years seems like an extremely long time to stand. I know many on the board who are multiple year standers, and I applaud you. I am not. Unless your intention is to remain single, it would seem that you are giving up 7 precious years of your life.
Having been divorced for 2 weeks now, I feel the anger that the husband in the video felt. In the video, it seemed like the wife wanted to get back together pretty quickly after the divorce, but the husband was the one who could not forgive. I may not be able to if my W came back today too. In that respect, I will not call myself a stander.
I just think it's not as simple as - oops, I made a mistake, let me write a letter, and make it all ok.
Hobo,
Sorry to hear about the finalization of the divorce.
I used to think that being single was giving up precious time in my life.
I guess I look at it differently...and don't see being with a man (my husband or someone else) as what will complete me. I used to look at it in that way.
Do I miss the companionship? Yes. I do. But, it's not so simple to replace...but I think you already know that.
Just take it a day at a time...that's all we can do.
L
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Standing for seven years is a long, long time. I am not sure that I could do it either, but then three years ago I never would have thought I could make it this long and here I still am . . .
MLC is a different animal. The fact is that if they are in MLC, most likely it is temporary. I have that hope. Yes, it is a loooooooooong process, but most likely a temporary one. I know what my husband was like as a father and a husband pre-MLC. He is not that man now, but I have the hope that he will be again. Speaking personally, he will be the best father my kids can have if he returns to anything like he was before, in large part because he IS their dad and no one else could love them the same way. And he was a great dad.
Yes, as a mom it upsets me greatly that my kids are being treated this way by their dad. Yes, I am crazy lonely sometimes and wish things were different. I am trying to get myself out of the mindset that this is wasted time because it has felt that way to me many, many times. I have realized that I did rely on my husband for my happiness too much. I am not an extension of him and I need to be my own person and find my own happiness.
I also realize that there is a bigger picture here. My husband has things in him he needs to “fix” on his own. I don’t like what my kids are learning from him right now, but I do hope that they are learning some valuable things from me – how to have faith, how to hope, how to be strong, how to love unconditionally, what commitment means.
It is up to the individual LBS to decide when they are “done,” (and I don’t know what that point would be for me) but we also need to heal and become whole ourselves. None of this is easy. I have no idea what will happen to my marriage at the end of the day, but for now here I am.
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I truly feel like, just as God has led many of us to stand for our marriages...if and when we are to no longer stand, He will also lead us down the path that we are supposed to take. God does speak, we just have to learn to listen to the right voice. I know that God does not save everyone...He doesn't. BUT, I also know that regardless of free will...He CAN change even the hardest of hearts, if He so chooses. There may be a reason that some of us are led to stand for a time, and not have our marriages restored. Perhaps it is so God can work in our own lives and bring us closer to Him...then He may release us from our stand, to go on and start a new life. I like to think that IF we are led to stand, that God WILL restore our marriage though. I just wish that were always the case, but know that it's not.
I'm not really putting a time-limit on my stand. As I stated, I feel like when/if I am released from standing, God will let me know. I am currently very hopeful that my H will wake up and return and that I will continue my stand for our lifetimes...with H by my side, also standing with me! Seven years does seem like a long time but if God leads you...and you are continuing to listen to Him...those seven years will be years of joy and hope.
I'm super-paraphrasing here but it does state in the Bible that God will restore the years that the locusts ate.
It is an exhausting process though and I am TIRED of this roller coaster. My faith feels tested daily, and I'm SO very lonely, but I'm trudging along and trying to be hopeful and inspiring to others too. :-\
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All - personal opinion I totally agree with Mitzpah and Loveisntweakness's opinion with I really don't think it happens unless the people find God and their greater purpose in life. and that with Him, I wouldn't be this far (along with you and the fine folks at LT). But my wife has to find God on her own. I have no idea where she is when it comes to her relationship with the Lord, and I pray that she has at least started talks with Him. She grew up Catholic but has never practiced in the 16yr (as of today) we have been married. Pre-MLC, my wife was a decent mom, a great wife, and a wonderful best friend. Right now she is the MOTHER of my children and not as much a mommy that they need so much. She is not a wife per description and no best friend would treat me like this or others. Agree with trusting, I feel the worst for my babies as they are missing what they truly could have from a good mom and I too am lonely even when she is only 2 feet from me.
Learning you put it so well, I hate it that the kids have to see something like this that seems so abnormal but with my love, they will know what a real parent and spouse is supposed to do. With Hope you are so right that the reason he ALLOWS this to happen is because He knew this is the best way to get US to Him. We could withstand a car accident, lose a limb, have a bad illness and we might not be as receptive to the Lord. But, it is through this means that He knows he has us.
Hugs to all that are lonely with me. This is not a popular move this STANDING. But we have been called, and we will prevail.
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I stumbled on this article......i found it very interesting especially for those of us with spouses and ourselves whom suffered from FOO issues/abuse...........you after read the whole article to understand it xxxxxxxxxx
http://www.silentlambs.org/answers/movingforward.htm
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Found this great website on depression...........the posts written below the article asking for advice are very similar to what we are experiencing now .........there's lots of articles all wrote by the man who went through it.........and wants to try help others xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
http://www.storiedmind.com/self-esteem/why-depressed-men-leave-1/http://www.storiedmind.com/self-esteem/why-depressed-men-leave-1/
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This I can believe, having gone through depression myself and then listening to Dearheart. It can be uncanny some of the things that pop out of his mouth.
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Hi WH I believe it too.........A yr and half before BD my h went on to depression meds..........it was only after doing some research the other week that i found a forum relating to the meds my h is on................many people men and woman alike were posting saying that the depression meds turned their husband/wife in to someone they don't recognize.........they all did things most of our spouses are doing on here..many if not most left their family's too..........if anyone's h or w are depression meds........google the name of the meds my h was on fluoxitine..........which comes under Prozac........if you Google did Prozac destroy my marriage ....you will be very surprised at how many people are stating this xxxxxxxxx
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Add another to the list! I believe my H was starting MLC when he was diagnosed instead as bipolar (which was later re-diagnosed as general anxiety - yeah, those are the same, good job, Doc!). He was on several SSRI's including Seroquel, Celexa, and Lexapro, and went cold turkey off of them (you CAN'T do that without a drop in dopamine and a spike in seratonin - otherwise known as MLC x 10). Even though that should have faded by now, hence why I believe MLC was the underlying cause, I can pinpoint that to when Monster started. It's very dangerous, and needs to be discussed more in the mainstream!
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Ready2Transform,
I believe my H was starting MLC when he was diagnosed instead as bipolar (which was later re-diagnosed as general anxiety - yeah, those are the same, good job, Doc!). He was on several SSRI's including Seroquel, Celexa, and Lexapro, and went cold turkey off of them (you CAN'T do that without a drop in dopamine and a spike in seratonin - otherwise known as MLC x 10).
Almost the same with my h.! :o :o
He was diagnosed with General Anxiety Disorder in Sept 2010 and started taking Citalopram (he had taken it before for depression in 2005), he went off it cold turkey too in November - December BD! He went to the psychiatrist later in Dec and she told him he wasn't depressed anymore and that he didn't need it (this he told me 'triumphantly').
Interesting, very interesting...
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Mine also got dx´d with anxiety, took several meds, went cold turkey off of Lexapro, went back on Lexapro, went off again with an irregular taper, BD´d me with BD number one, agreed to see a psychiatrist who would only say, "It´s existential depression." Hmmm, maybe we´re onto something here.
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FTT,
agreed to see a psychiatrist who would only say, "It´s existential depression." Hmmm, maybe we´re onto something here.
That was what h.'s pyschiatrist said!!! Oh, and said for me to leave him alone as he needed to work through it himself - she actually sent the message through him ??? ??? :o :o
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Hi My h stopped the meds not long later he dropped the bomb.........its a case of did the depression trigger the MLC or the MLC trigger the depression...........or was it the fact that he also stopped the meds abruptly........no reducing dose or anything :o :o :o :o...... hmmmm .........h as restarted his 10 weeks ago maybe i should hide them when he calls or encourage him to stop them............he might dump o/w then lol........i will post a link to the forum i found relating to this when i can xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
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The website you listed, the Storied Mind, was actually the site I was on prior to finding this site. I would read it all night, looking for answers to the changes I saw in my partner. In the fall of 2010, I felt my partner had fallen into a deep depression. I started reading everything I could on depression. My partner suffered through the deaths of both his sisters, his mother, his father being traumatically injured in a car accident, in the trauma unit for 4 months, his own bypass surgery and two subsequent heart surgeries, being diagnosed with skin cancer (cancer killed his sisters), I needed a medical procedure, my dad broke his hip and later broke his neck, my brother went through 2 rounds of bypass surgery. As you can see we were both stressed and he had withdrawn from me.
I found the site Storied Mind. I started printing out all the articles. I gave them to my partner to read. I believe at one point before going to far into the tunnel, and prior to the ow, he saw himself in the articles. He told me that he could see that i would think it was describing him. but then he said, it isn't though.
I still think he was connecting some to the articles as he took them to his doctor. His doctor told him he didn't think my partner was depressed.
when he told me this I said I was sad because I thought that was what was wrong (depression) and I had been hoping this was the answer. He screamed at me not to have hope, that he was done, that he was never coming back. He screamed the same thing at me a second time. This from a kind, gentle man who had never raised his voice to me. He was a monster that day
.
Not sure of it was pressure to him, or whether he himself had held out some hope and now it was dashed for him also.
When the ow first came on the scene I had begged him to step back, that I still thought this was depression and that he would come out of it. Supposedly he told her this, that I wanted him to wait , I believed he would come out of this. Her answer was that although she of course did not really know him, she didn't think he was depressed. They were off and running after that.
My partner was also diagnosed with low testosterone, which was tricky to treat with all his heart medicines. Now of course they have figured it out, so for he he can now perform, and seems happy whenever I have seen him.
I have always wondered if treating the low t could have brought him out of depression and now he has just moved on..I have to admit I think this because I pretty much have a vanisher and I have seen no changes in his decision to leave ow or his belief that the ow is a blessing from God!
He has never wavered from when he screamed at me he was never coming back.
The ow seems to have just stepped into his life replacing me, going to family and work functions.
Other times I think, how could he go through all this loss ,perhaps have issues from childhood, leave me, and just have moved on within 4 months or maybe less than 4 months, depending when ow really came on the scene.
I do recommend the Storied Mind site. It is fascinating reading.
Sorry for any punctuation errors, still dealing with the broken arm ::).
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Thanks for the article, WGH. My husband has had a depression many years before MLC. He was treated among other med I don’t recall the substance, with fluoxite. Those meds drove him crazy. However it was a different crazy from pre-MLC and MLC crazy. He did wanted to leave and he was aware the meds were driving him mad.
On the months prior to his leave he had often told me he was depressed. He took no meds, we went crazy. He also told me, in 2008, that he remained depressed. I would guess he is still depressed. And I would also guess that he fears takes meds because of the way he felt the other time he was depressed.
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My H was put on Lexapro by his dr. brother ( I know bad idea) but everybody didn't know what to do and wanted him to stop his behavior. My H had been on Clomazopan..an anti-amnisiaic apparently. One prior to BD but at the beginning of MLC he took a Clomazopan on an empty stomach took a walk with our daughter came back to the house and couldn't remember anything. The Clomazopan was prescribed by a dr. who told him that he needed THERAPY and that this would help with the panic disorders but that H had to go to therapy. He only took a few Lexapro right before BD and he acted REALLY strange the day he took it..then he just stopped. I just through the bottle away a few weeks ago. I think that we could go a million places with this but I do believe my H had issues with testosterone too..but maybe part of MLC..IDK...but I know he was searching for holstic cures like maca root. Anyway..maybe these are just the meds drs. throw at patients with MLC symptoms. H has not been dealing with his depression for year.
HUGS
BUGS
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I find this thread fascinating- my h had be going to a psychotherapist for 8 mos. never telling me until I found antidepressants in his med cabinet. When I questioned him- he said he was no longer taking them because they made him feel terrible. All the while I was finding empty wine bottles hidden all over the house. Now that's he has moved out - he announced that he is no longer depressed and doesn't drink anymore. I guess it was all my fault...
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Chickpea, I got the same thing -- soon after he moved out he said that he didn't drink any more because that had been all my fault. Well, he still drinks. Sometimes not doing so for show, as far as I can tell, and I don't know if he goes to bars daily to self-medicate any more, but lots of alcohol still is consumed.
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Funny, I thought (and still think) my H was depressed. I told him that, showed him articles and he continuously denied it and said I don't fit the criteria (he was proud of that). Then, when he went to a psychiatrist he came back with a report that he was not depressed (my H was all proud of that and flaunted that around) but that he had to figure out his life...you serious? The only thing that the doctor did get right (in a 15 minute visit) was that he is an anxious person...but then said....it is to be expected under the circumstance. What this doctor didn't know is that my H is VERY anxious. He is like a gerbil on a wheel running and running. I was always his calm...I am so zen that when he was with me he could relax and I taught him to not be so impulsive with things. He was doing much better...unfortunately, when we moved and he didn't like his new job, he started worrying about our second child coming into the world, his parents getting older, etc. etc., his anxiety shut up and, as we all know, during generalized anxiety to simply have a need to run and keep running....I don't know if my H is ever coming back to his senses. He has left me and the kids almost exactly 2 months ago and he has not looked back....just cut me out cold turkey and only shows up once a week to see the kids (never asking how they are, if he can have pictures of them, or what he can do to help support them). If he claims it is not my fault and I did nothing...why be so hateful and cold and indifferent? So frustrating! If my H never gets help for his anxiety/depression, can someone just snap out of it one day? He does not believe in meds or psychologists...
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My w started having sever depression when we got our first home and she was 30. For 15 years there was not a lot of deep emotions of love for me or our children. I hear my grown children talk about her at times but mostly they hide it from me as they know I don't like them talking about there mom. They say things like she is unable to love and they think she hates them , but at the same time they all try to get her love. I think my w likes having the power over them. I always wondered if the house had something to do with it as she had a bad childhood and our home looks a lot like the one she grew up in.
My w depression was so bad that for years she could not leave the house. I would go to work and she would be sitting in the kitchen and I would come back after work to find her sitting in the same place and not anything all day. I love her so much when she is herself but at times it is hard to find that person. She quit the meds on her own in 2004 and she seemed to get better and all of the sudden we where able to go places and do things together and it was fun and romanic all over again , then one day she came to me in 2006 and said she had been to the doctor and they want her to back on the meds I told her what I had been seeing which was depression again and I agreed with the doctor , she got mad and told me that I wanted her on meds so I can control her. I just wanted to stop the agrument so I dropped it.
2010 was the year of bomb drop and man did I see depression and anger. She needs help still but I don't think she will ever do anything about it. At times I have been afraid that she would kill herself but now I don't think she ever will but she rather treat the people she loves like S??T. Depression is a terrible for those who live it and for those who love them.
edited for carriage returns (MF)
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Ditto here with ex-W.
I'm sure she had been depressed throughout the period leading up to and after BD. Of course she denied it, would not go to counselling or a doctor, my suggestions of doing so were uncaring, rage, anger, resentment, etc... :-\
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Hi I found this thought i would post it ............we all need reminders ..........and there's a few newbies asking questions regarding their h/w R with the other person....hope this helps xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
http://positiveprovocations.com/2010/02/13/true-love-or-infatuation-whats-the-difference/
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:o :o :o :o.................. theres some others on there too xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
http://feistywoman.net/2011/01/24/keep-him-from-walking-out-that-door/
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http://feistywoman.net/2011/03/28/being-the-other-woman-and-being-the-footstool/
have a look at the garage door and words the wife wrote lol xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
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Mamma this is your h's o/w and mine and many more on here .........poor C-ow ha ha ha xxxxxxxxx
http://feistywoman.net/2011/03/04/why-shes-throwing-herself-at-you/
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HA! At that garage door. OW is so lucky she's 2 states away. At BD#2, I would have had some fantastic artwork ideas! ;) That's a great article, too, I'm going to be enjoying that site for awhile!
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Just another confirmation that his childhood is to blame for how he handles conflict xxxxxxxxxxxxxx
http://www.lifespanlearn.org/documents/TatkinInfidelity.pdf
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I liked the difference between infidelity and affair/adultery. One of the things that have bothered the most, much more than the in-fatuation and the alienator is the telling of details of our relationship/marriage.
Don’t think MLC has only to do with childhood/development (chemical imbalance play a big part) issues but there are some things in the text that could be applied to my husband. He was never left alone during childhood, was much more suffocated than I was by his family constant presence. If anything he was not allowed space to breath.
However, and unlike in my family that puts emphasis in developing a relashionship, his family puts emphasis on status, money, achievements. And I guess one could say he is doing nothing but avoiding the inevitable.
If it all comes from childhood or part comes from the depression is hard to know.
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Really interesting, thank you WGH.
When my H and I were seeing a therapist a few months ago, the therapist suggested (without my H's knowledge), that I read a book on attachment disorders. He thought my H definitely fitted the bill.
I have to agree, and this is yet further confirmation.
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WGH, I just wanted to say thank you for finding and posting this article. It has been a light bulb moment for me . My h. fits the ambivalent behaviour to a 'T' and I did not have the skills or understanding to deal with him once these deep needs (issues) started to come to the surface. What this article seems to be saying is that these needs - and also my own - need to be worked through with appropriate counselling which is not couple counselling so that a relationship has any chance of being rebuilt taking into account that many of these needs / issues may not go away. It fits with us learning that we need to work on our own issues first, that a MLCer comes back broken rather than fixed after going through the 'tunnel' because their issues do not simply go away and that simply leaving things to sort themselves out may end up with the same thing happening again. I can now also understand why regular counselling either for an individual or a couple cannot work in our situations. As someone said on another thread - this is not for the fainthearted.
I have been resistant to counselling after the disastrous post BD counselling sessions my h. & I attended and the five I did on my own. No wonder they were disastrous - they were never going to get to the root cause of our problems and the sticky plaster approach to getting on with life didn't work for me. As part of learning to accept what has happened in my life it has been important to me to understand why so that I can both accept what has happened and ensure my future is different. This article has really helped me so once again many thanks for posting it.
CrazyStuff
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My ex is an insecure avoidant. This doesn't speak to the temporary nature of an MLC. Unfortunately, the way I have to look at this is that my ex is unattracted to me due to her threat response programmed at childhood.
She does seem to be repulsed by me... and has even said so.
How very sad. She has lost all libido and attraction for me, but it's limited to me - as the primary attachment figure.
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My ex is an insecure avoidant. This doesn't speak to the temporary nature of an MLC. Unfortunately, the way I have to look at this is that my ex is unattracted to me due to her threat response programmed at childhood.
She does seem to be repulsed by me... and has even said so.
How very sad. She has lost all libido and attraction for me, but it's limited to me - as the primary attachment figure.
I know the feeling buddy I to recognized this in my W after readin that article. She has blocked me out of her mental picture of a lover. Now I am nothing more then a means to an end. I keep her from having to sleep on some family members couch but that is even just temporary in her mind, as she intends to divorce me as soon as D goes to college.
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Your all welcome.....i love researching and come across a lot of articles .......some i don't post because there hard to understand......this one as to be read a few times to understand it..........ive been trying to find one that relates to how we interact with avoidant people without having to pay a fortune with therapists......many people are struggling to pay bills never mind adding this to the expresses......as YET no such luck but i will keep looking and will post it if I find owt xxxxxxxx
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You find some amazing information WGH, thank you.
Re the MC - I agree Crazy - because the MLCers are broken once they are through the tunnel, ideally a good therapist would be needed for IC. These are not MC issues at the root of all of this.
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Thanks for posting this, very interesting.
Have to say I found it a wee bit sad. My H is the avoidant type and it confirmed a few things that i have only realised through MLC and actually in some of his ramblings. It actually makes me wonder if they will EVER be capable of anything meaningful with us. I feel sorry for the way it starts out but also wonder if living a half life with someone who can't resolve this is the right thing to do for our own happiness. Are we selling our own lives short? Makes me a bit wary gotta tell you.
I think that learning how to deal with an avoidant is all very well, but they need to buy into it and that in itself would be a huge challenge. This is a lifetime of behavioural changes we're talking here. Is it really possible?
Sd
x
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That's the clincher SD. IF they want to, they can make changes.
The scary thing about attachment disorders - they start in utero. The biochemistry changes, depending on whether the mother wants the child or not. It starts that early.
By two years of age, the brain is pretty much wired and set up to either be securely attached to the primary care giver, or not.
Apparently a lot of females do their own repair work, when they have their own babies. You can make a conscious choice to touch, speak to and have eye contact with your own baby, without having had it to a large extent, or not at all, with your own mother. This rewires the brain.
Men? Well, I guess that becomes more challenging. They would have to WANT to make changes. After seeing all of this damage, it may be something they are willing to do??
I agree with you - I wouldn't settle for a shell of a person after all of this either.
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That's really interesting.
Here's something on my H though that may throw the men thing off. After I had my twins I got really sick and my H had to take care of them on his own for their first 3 months. He did everything and would lie with them on his chest and fall asleep. I know that he never bonded with his own mother, yet he took care of those twins like they were his world. he obviously had made a concious choice back then for his own flesh and blood, but not toward me. Then MLC hit and he ignored them for nearly 3 years.
So are they capable, but make the choice not to become attached through fear, which may also be linked to other personality disorders developed through trauma or bad relationship experiences after the mother. lol.
I suppose it's back to the born or made argument.
Sd
x
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I guess like all theories, they are only theories - but that is really interesting about your H and your babies.
Surely, he must have done some rewiring at that time, but as you say there must have been other things there in the mix.
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SD my h was the same with the kids when they were baby's..........even though i was fine he still placed them on his chest to comfort them if they woke up in the night.......I agree too i don't want my h if he cant face up to his issues.......i was only thinking the other day how do these men deal with their problems if many don't acknowledge or even know they exist........i know they know somethings wrong but what about childhood issues or things that happened to them but they have no recollection...........i don't know its quite confusing that's why im trying to find as much i can and read it to better understand it............maybe this could be where seeds are planted to get h thinking if that makes sense xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
http://divorcesupport.about.com/od/isdivorcethesolution/a/avoidantpersonality.htm
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My H was the same too. Many hours were spent with our babies snuggled against his chest, or having colicky tummies soothed while resting on his larger hand and arm.
Just to clarify though - according to the book I read - for the brain to be rewired for secure attachment - the parent needs to have a lot of eye contact, sing and talk to the baby while having eye contact, and touch.
From my observations - my H had the touch down pat, but not so much the eye contact and singing/talking to our babies.
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e avoidant personality disorder describes my h to a t. Even down the the control freak accusations during the worst of replay. I obviously said shut up silly man and do as your told. ;-)
I also showed my h the traits of passive aggressive and he took it really badly. He actually st and wrote down the list and confirmed or denied them. He really soul searched that day and did not like what he saw.
He described to me how he avoided conflict with his parents. His father was violent when angry and the mother retaliated throwing things. He Was scared and did all he could to avoid getting into trouble.
My s8 has this also as he became very fearful of my h diuring tthe mad at the dirt stage. Now he sucks up to h to the point he compromises himself in order to avoid it. History repeats itself.
SD
X
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Thanks WGH for posting that article. I thought the article was so good, I ordered Stan Tatkin's book Wired for my Kindle. My H is def. avoidant. This article describes his breakdown/withdrawal to a T. It also provides me with a lot of comfort, oddly, in that it helps me really accept that it was not my fault. Have to learn that lesson over and over, I'm afraid. The uncomfortable, scary part is that I may be the ambivalent-angry type. An avoidant AND an ambivalent? A marital firekeg for sure. But I never wanted to run away from the marriage. That was him.
BirdSoul
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Thanks WGH very insightful. I do believe that they can work through this. Actually I think it's good they're purging it all by running and doing something. Sounds crazy but the alternative could be to just drink down the basement for 40 years instead. ??? ???
Our MLCers are shot out of the cannon at BD and the race is on. Avoidants maybe trying to escape and be normal like everyone else. Wearing masks blah blah blah.
Fog, lying, erratic behavior, abandonment, immoral behavior, accusations, rewritten history ??? Can these people even pass a simple psych eval?
MC sounds crazy now. While they're run away trains.
IC down the road when they want help! Ats a fo' sho'!
My H is both. Avoidant and ambivalent....probably another spectrum :P
Anyway his Mom had him when she was 43 and had a tough life. She had escaped Stalin and Hitler and she and her H moved here and he was the last baby. 17 years younger than his oldest brother.
With the motel and the cultural parties at their resort I think he got left in the playpen. :'( Everyone around him getting drunk and eating and partying!
He still gives the Ds a hard time for asking for ice cream after a day trip. He says "I never got ice cream!" ::)
He actually said that the other night. Father's Day...freak!
And he harrassed the clerk that ALL the ice cream should be FREE for Fathers Day! The store offered free ice cream to the Dads only. The Ds were embarrassed. :-[
Great article for food for thought. Thanks again.
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This site is great if you need motivation to let go and look after yourself ..............take a look..........some great ideas and brilliant quotes xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
http://www.marcandangel.com/
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so true has helped me alot
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I can see this site is going to b done of my favorites! Thanks you so much for sharing!
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Thought i would post this for the newbies or the ones who are struggling..........I have read it before and think what he says is what RCR recommends xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
http://www.midlife.com/index.php/check-it-out/411-marriage-testimony-from-the-man-who-left-his-wife-and-returned-for-good
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Ok, I am a slow learner or just am incredulous as to this MLC syndrome. I read the article and I am struck with more questions than answers. The overriding question I have that continues to plague me is this:
If we did not cause it, if we are not to blame for our spouse's MLC, why is it then after I read this article that I feel our (LBS) weaknesses were the things that make the OW/OM more attractive and needed for our MLCer so much so that if we were to be attractive again to our spouse, we have to become more like the OW/OM? Why is that we need to fixate on their needs (make them feel better about themselves) as we go about changing ourselves?
During my M, my H was incredibly selfish. Nothing has changed now that he is in the midst of his MLC. He is just über-selfish. He rarely, if ever, met my needs but I never looked outside of my M to have my needs met. I sought him out and waited, longed for him to see me as important as he now sees the OW.
This article doesn't make me feel good at all... I guess I'm still deluded or hurting from the pangs of a recent BD. I just don't get how if we didn't cause it, why do we need to change to be more like the people they cheat with so they can come back home to us? I know I have to do my own self discovery and changing. I am fully embracing this reality. But I refuse to compromise who I am to be more like the woman who stole my life and my marriage so I might have the off-chance of getting a returned broken selfish man who may or may not want me. Am I missing something??
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If we did not cause it, if we are not to blame for our spouse's MLC, why is it then after I read this article that I feel our (LBS) weaknesses were the things that make the OW/OM more attractive and needed for our MLCer so much so that if we were to be attractive again to our spouse, we have to become more like the OW/OM? Why is that we need to fixate on their needs (make them feel better about themselves) as we go about changing ourselves?
That is not what I read from the article. I think that along with the craziness of MLC, some of us can see that we may fall into a rut where we take eachother for granted. I think my Dh is hot. Do I tell him? Rarely. Do I tell him I love him? Rarely. Why... because he already knew. And my Dh is guilty of the same. I also am finding thru my journey that just like his wife, I felt weird voicing good lovey dovey feelings but had no prob voicing dissatisfaction. That could wear someone down. Someone that needs that validation every once in a while. Especially someone that doesn't have that internal locus of control yet (something MLC is probably about...).
My dh has been guilty of the same thing.
I now know that if we get the chance, this is something we need to discuss and come to an agreement on. I know my Dh probably likes the ego boost that OW gives him. I am a strong personality and sometimes a bulldozer. Not an easy personality for a weak person to deal with. She is easy and while I don't want to be like her (don't know her), I do now see some ways in which I could be a softer human being and not be afraid to be more "vulnerable" from a "real" love kind of way. Expressing unconditional love instead of leaving my marriage to assumptions.
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I love Saving Grace's comments. And also ascendings. You ladies are bright and engaging. I have a third position on this that is almost completely sure to not be identified with by anyone I guess...What if the OW is a copy of myself?
My husband went on match.com and found someone whose photo looked so much like one of me that I actually got a little sick when I saw it. Then he proceeded to ply her with the same lines he used on me, and the whole shibang. [Someone here posted (I read it today and I can't remember who) about her H going back in time and finding a 23 yr old and starting over just as if it were her and him at that age...]. I guess what I am angling at is what if the OW is a poorer reflection of us, not something we need to model, but something we can measure ourselves against, in that, he is projecting us onto HER. and does not need to project HER onto us.
Just thinking out loud.
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If we did not cause it, if we are not to blame for our spouse's MLC, why is it then after I read this article that I feel our (LBS) weaknesses were the things that make the OW/OM more attractive and needed for our MLCer so much so that if we were to be attractive again to our spouse, we have to become more like the OW/OM? Why is that we need to fixate on their needs (make them feel better about themselves) as we go about changing ourselves?
I read something a little different in the article. I do see in this article that she seems to acknowledge rarely complimenting her husband. From my perspective, that is a separate issue from MLC. It's hard to know from reading this article if it is actually MLC, or a non-MLC affair. MLC is so much more than the story of the affair......but often the affair is the part we read about.
The wisdom gained from this story though is to detach from the behavior of the MLCer, continue to mature your Self, and be respectful and show grace despite what others (including your spouse) may do toward you. I would say that's what I get out of it.
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DGU, UP and Acsending, I appreciate the clarification as I try to grasp the intent of the article.
For me personally, the article had the W hold back her compliments, but what if in your M you actually did compliment your spouse? Freely? Without hesitation and reservation and it was just never enough???? The compliments were never reciprocated. I had to ask for mine. It was so sad for me to have to solicit a kind response from my H.
I understand it was only used as an example but what I'm struggling with is how we were being compared to someone who willingly destroyed two marriages and is willingly able to say whatever she can to keep this R together while whatever I say or did was specious and held in contempt.
I am continuously challenged to be respectful and show grace when the situation may cause me to want to act with a different reaction.
Underpressure, your thinking out loud may have some merit... It makes one think about why they pick the people they do. I will have to ruminate on this.
I have much to learn. I have much growing to do. Thank you all.....
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Like Saving Grace I get that the article suggests we need to fixate on their needs.
Well, it does not make any sense to do that with a MLC spouse. I’ve always told my husband he looked hot and have never been short on praise. He did the same with me. Before MLC, that is. Now I’m not going to tell him he is hot when he looks like a wreck. OW2 can do that if she wants.
It is not the first time I sense in these articles/replies from a supposed (or real) MLCer that if only we had been a little better… if only… It is their crisis, not ours, while on crisis it is up to them to sort themselves out.
Underpressure position is interesting. OW1 was my opposite in every way, OW2 looks like a second grade me, a poorer reflection of me. Don’t see any point in becoming more like OW/OM. OW/OM are attractive while they are on crisis. They would never be attractive to the real person.
DGU, I also get that we need to be behave with grace.
In a way, just like with AMYC story, this is still the MLCer (or WAS) still angry, still blaming the spouse rather than owing their own deeds.
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DGU, UP and Acsending, I appreciate the clarification as I try to grasp the intent of the article.
For me personally, the article had the W hold back her compliments, but what if in your M you actually did compliment your spouse? Freely? Without hesitation and reservation and it was just never enough???? The compliments were never reciprocated. I had to ask for mine. It was so sad for me to have to solicit a kind response from my H.
I understand it was only used as an example but what I'm struggling with is how we were being compared to someone who willingly destroyed two marriages and is willingly able to say whatever she can to keep this R together while whatever I say or did was specious and held in contempt.
I am continuously challenged to be respectful and show grace when the situation may cause me to want to act with a different reaction.
Underpressure, your thinking out loud may have some merit... It makes one think about why they pick the people they do. I will have to ruminate on this.
I have much to learn. I have much growing to do. Thank you all.....
I do not think I am being compared to the OW. If anything, I would think it would be the other way around. I KNOW my Dh isn't happy. I KNOW that I am a good woman. That is where self focus is so important. I don't find myself competing with her. I do see some lessons for my marriage that I can take away from all this to make my marriage better though.
I don't have a Dh that I think picked someone like me. I haven't seen her though. Maybe they are outwardly attracted to a type, but I cannot see someone being like us intrinsically. Not to say it's impossible. But just knowing their moral code is corrupt is enough to give you confidence in that area. They didn't pick someone like you. They picked someone that looks like you but someone that they can't/don't/won't/whocares treat like you.
I do think the complementing is a marriage issue and not really a MLC issue, but I think if someone that is weak doesn't feel fulfilled, it makes them more vulnerable to what they feel they are lacking until they are strong enough to get those things from themself.
Also, I think that perhaps your husband saying nice things didn't mean much to him because he is not lacking in that area. I have an internal focus on myself. I don't need people to tell me what they do or don't think or like about me. I am pretty sure of myself the good and the bad. When people say nice things, it's nice to hear, but I don't put much weight on it. Also, because it's not important to my well being, I am guilty of not providing it to people I love. Not on purpose though. I like gifts. My dh isn't good at gifts. When he gets me things, i appreciate it, but he isn't a good gift giver. If I wanted more of that, I would have to solicit it or meet that need elsewhere (in a moral way of course).
You have to remember the hormonal part of infatuation. You are being compared to that good feeling. Not necessarily to that person. When hormones fade, then what. Just one aspect to think about.
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Perhaps I am the only one whose H fits this description. Spin wh#re, the gym instructor, made a big deal out of my H every time I was in the class. He lapped it up. She would pick on him and then say how funny he was or how well he was doing. I never thought my H was that needy, but apparently he is. I would try complimenting him, like how big his biceps are, and all I would get back is "yeah, how many guys my age look this good?"
I don't know how well this approach works with an MLC person. The letter didn't specify how long the guy was out. I just passed 20 mos with no end in sight. I do agree with detaching and learning to be the best you can be. That is going to serve you well no matter what.
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I struggle with this a bit myself. My H seems addicted to female adoration and attention. I think of course I could have complimented him more, but it would not have been enough and certainly would not have stopped his MLC. Also I struggle with telling him how great he is or was when sometimes he just wasn't. Sounds narcisissitic to me. They have to fill the hole in their soul not us.
My H made a comment last summer a couple months after BD "I just have to learn that I can get all my needs met in my marriage" "I get distracted and when things are not going well between us I go to others." At the time I did not understand MLC, I thought it was all about his affair(s). Now I want to say, you could never get all your needs met in a marriage or from anyone, try working on you. ::)
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Maybe they are outwardly attracted to a type, but I cannot see someone being like us intrinsically. Not to say it's impossible. But just knowing their moral code is corrupt is enough to give you confidence in that area. They didn't pick someone like you. They picked someone that looks like you but someone that they can't/don't/won't/whocares treat like you.
Agreed. I never would sleep with a married man. Never. Not to say i haven't had terrible moments in my own crisis but I would never do what she did. and further she is really scummy in all sorts of other foul-mouthed ways...which just enabled him to act badly and not worry about it.
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I love Saving Grace's comments. And also ascendings. You ladies are bright and engaging. I have a third position on this that is almost completely sure to not be identified with by anyone I guess...What if the OW is a copy of myself?
My husband went on match.com and found someone whose photo looked so much like one of me that I actually got a little sick when I saw it. Then he proceeded to ply her with the same lines he used on me, and the whole shibang. [Someone here posted (I read it today and I can't remember who) about her H going back in time and finding a 23 yr old and starting over just as if it were her and him at that age...]. I guess what I am angling at is what if the OW is a poorer reflection of us, not something we need to model, but something we can measure ourselves against, in that, he is projecting us onto HER. and does not need to project HER onto us.
Just thinking out loud.
Hi all, I just read the article and it's interesting to hear everyone's responses! It was me who said above, it's just what I feel. I don't know my H girlfriend but I know from a pal who has dealings with her on a professional basis that she thinks she's very aware of why she has and is doing and seems to be ashamed (wouldn't make eye contact with her and looked uncomfortable during meeting). Things I have pieced together from what I heard my H say about her when he first started working with her is that she's just very young, inexperienced, catapulted into a life that's just full of parties and famous people and looking at emails she sent to my H she's been massaging his ego and I would even say "pursuing him", tapping into things that interest him and his son e.g. Star wars! It's bizarre their emails were so childish, I just thought he should be sending links to goofy things on you tube about sr wars to his 7 yr. old son! So I think my H ow fits the stereotype, she's young, naive, acts confident but isn't really, vulnerable so he wants to protect her because he feels so superior! I was beginning to express confidence in myself in so many areas of my life just before BD! He kept on banging on about how he felt so good about himself, he lost weight and bought loads of new clothes. He said to me "everyone thinks I'm amazing except you!" it was odd because we had been trying to work it out for 5 weeks previously and I had been nothing but loving and compllimentary, I really did think he was amazing and showed him! I couldn't have been more complimentary but he was having an affair and he was infatuated with someone else, I don't think anything I did would make any difference to how he was feeling and is feeling. He sees me as the source of all his problems and she's a breath of fresh air. But it's all a fantasy, it's not realistic to tell someone they're amazing all the time, life happens, nappies to change, floors to clean, snotty noses to wipe, children to love, careers to develop the list goes on! I think I could have been more complimentary aants how him how much I want him more but the same goes for him .... I was aware we had 2 small kids and he was starting a new business, we were under huge pressure. We needed to working us but he left just as we were embarking on that process. He didn't trust me to change apparantly, oh and he wanted to have sex with ow!
You just have to be you and become a better and bolder version of you. I feel more confident about being me than I've ever felt and that is because of my age and life's journey. While my H regresses and replays all the teen stuff, his last significant life transition that he didn't complete properly because he was badly affected by his mothers midlife crisis, abandonment and then divorce (some people never learn ;-) we both made mistakes in our relationship, we were young when we met, i was a nightmare in my 20s but so was he! But im not that person anymore, that was 10, 12, 15 years ago. I am going to finally learn to grow for me, learn who I am and what I want from life. I have to say, I wouldn't swap with my MLcer for all the tea in china (and I do love tea!)
Link to next group of WGH topics 2
http://mlcforum.theherosspouse.com/index.php?topic=2908.0