Midlife Crisis: Support for Left Behind Spouses

Midlife Crisis => Our Community => Topic started by: OldPilot on December 28, 2018, 02:17:12 AM

Title: Old Timers thread 4
Post by: OldPilot on December 28, 2018, 02:17:12 AM
Discuss
Previous threads



First one
https://mlcforum.theherosspouse.com/index.php?topic=10191.0


2nd one
https://mlcforum.theherosspouse.com/index.php?topic=10272.0

Third one
https://mlcforum.theherosspouse.com/index.php?topic=10298.0
Title: Re: Old Timers thread 4
Post by: Mitzpah on December 28, 2018, 03:46:17 AM
Thanks for giving us old timers a new thread - it is always very interesting to see how we are faring after so many years :)

...

Truly love reconnection and reconciliations stories. MLC is not easy and reconnecting and reconciling are even harder than deal with Replay. One more thing that puts me off.

To be fair, I am interested in a new relationship. But it has to be a good, smooth one. No more problems. No more complications.

It does seem to be true that re connection and reconciliation are very hard and I can understand that many are not willing to go through with it due to the damage that has been done, however, I think it is very unlikely that we can find a a good, smooth relationship without problems and complications.

One of my h.'s uncles, now deceased, had three long term relationships, whether he had an MLC or not is neither here or there now, but he left his wife and children right after his father's death (h.'s beloved grandfather who died right after we got married in 1984). He then  went to live with a woman his age with children about the same age as his (young adults), a bit of a rocky relationship that lasted until her death from cancer.  After this, he entered into another relationship with another mature lady, who was a widow and had had a son who died as a young adult many years before - both were in their 70's. Once, this lady said to me that she liked the fact that they lived apart because their relationship was "light" and did not carry heavy burdens. After a few years together, his mother died (h's grandmother) and he started living with her, things were not so good as she felt that she carried more than her fair share :P So, he found ways of spending more time at the club until he got sick with cancer - she ended up nursing him and sharing the work with his first wife (she never had another relationship, although I wouldn't say she stood for her marriage), both of them were beside him at his death - it brought healing to the children (h's cousins) at the very end.

I think life is full of complications however you look at it - companionship is so important, so I believe that those of us who attempt to reconcile with our spouses (given the chance , of course :P) are blessed. I really do not think new relationships are without their own problems and complications, it is all in how we deal with them - and we are going through a very good school here!
Title: Re: Old Timers thread 4
Post by: Treasur on December 28, 2018, 04:57:39 AM
What Mitz says makes a lot of sense to me.
I suspect our perspective on intimate relationships is changed by this experience. And many older adults carry their own baggage and responsibilities from other experiences in a way we did not in our 20s perhaps. Some good, some not so much.

It might be interesting to hear from old timers who are in a relationship now, whether with their MLC spouse or someone else, how their perspective or relationship wishes have changed? What it is like to be in a close relationship again after this kind of experience?

Not quite an old timer yet, so I am at that odd in between bit of not standing, not wanting my xh back or seeing it as possible...but also finding the idea of a new intimate relationship hard to imagine. Perhaps bc I liked the one I had which took years to build and know it can't be replaced. At the same time, flying solo without sex or close companionship for the rest of my life doesn't seem like a wise goal either. So, I focus on other things and trust that if that changes, it changes.
Title: Re: Old Timers thread 4
Post by: Anjae on December 28, 2018, 11:51:30 AM
Mitz, I don't think a good relationship equals complications and problems. Yes, at times those exist, but those cannot be a constant. If they are, the relationship is not good and is not worthy.

I am not talking about illness or death, those are part of life. I am talking about relationships that are nothing but complications and problems caused by nothings. After a spouse MLC pretty much everything aside from major life events is a non-problem to me. And I even found that major life events, like death and cancer are easier to deal with than MLC.

Companioship can be found in friends and relatives. No need of a spouse for it.

I find it really confusing why someone is blessed for reconciled with an horrible person - OK, not all MLCers are horrible, horrible, but many are.

Why would I be blessed if I reconciled with Mr J? His MLC person is a monster. I would feel more like an idiot. But, maybe I am missing something.  ???

I had a post-Mr J boyfriend, Treasur. It was nice. The thing is, I have no patience for silly problems. So, unless things are cool, I have no troubles getting rid of a boyfriend/new partner.

Reading the threads of those who are in new relationships, Learning comes to mind, they seem to love it and several find the new relationships better than the one they had with the MLCer.



"It is quite interesting how pretty much all male LBS pay alimony and child support to their MLC, but male MLCers often don't pay a cent to their LBS and children ..."

"Thank you Anjae for recognizing that.  I absolutely agree with this.  Although in my case, I have fared WAY better than most male LBSes."

You're welcome, Terrified. I think child support should always be payed. Kids have nothing to do with MLC or any other issue caused by a parent. As for alimony, if that is what the state/coutry rules say, then, it is the law.

What is interesting, and sad, is that the same law does not seem to work well when it come to male MLCer and female LBS (and children). Often male MLCers get away with not paying, leaving their LBS and children in troubles. Not to mention several of those who pay keep dragging the LBS to court to try to reduce the payed amount.
Title: Re: Old Timers thread 4
Post by: Mitzpah on December 28, 2018, 02:07:29 PM


Companioship can be found in friends and relatives. No need of a spouse for it.

I find it really confusing why someone is blessed for reconciled with an horrible person - OK, not all MLCers are horrible, horrible, but many are.

Why would I be blessed if I reconciled with Mr J? His MLC person is a monster. I would feel more like an idiot. But, maybe I am missing something.  ???



About companionship, I agree - yet, I desire the companionship of a husband... people tell me all the time that I am lucky to have my kids with me, that my h. is not antagonistic even though he is involved with someone else, that I am fine by myself, I can support myself and my children... I hear it all.

I desire a husband (more specifically, my husband) - we had a relationship like very few.  No one else measures up to the fine, gentle, good looking, strong, funny, empathetic, affectionate, helpful, resourceful, companionable man he is (not currently with me, of course :P). We share so  many interests and tastes. He speaks my language in more ways than one ;)

I do not mean that people who had bad relationships or were atrociously badly treated while their spouse  was in crisis and these have not shown any improvement on their crisis persona should reconcile to the detriment of the LBS. No, of course not. I am talking about those who had a good relationship and the MLC person is not so bad, and, as we have seen, can improve once out of crisis.

I can totally understand that after mistreatment, people desire to move on to another relationship  and sometimes, this may be exactly what they need - Treasur is right, our perspective is forever altered after such an experience and we need to take stock of our "baggage" before joining it with another person's .
Title: Re: Old Timers thread 4
Post by: osb on December 28, 2018, 02:18:35 PM
When I'm being less than charitable, my relationship seems full of complications and problems caused by nothing. When I'm in a good mood, the problems are nothing. :)  And this is in my reconciling relationship - goodness knows how crabby I would feel in a new relationship.

I think maybe the bar we set for a good relationship changes over time because we, as LBS's, have come to know exactly how much we are worth. I would not put up with the nonsense I've put up with in the past (what was I thinking!?  ??? ). But where perhaps we would each differ in our assessment, is in how we will define our spouses now. My H has been a horrible person; he caused me a mountain of hurt. He has done things which hurt me in memory to this day, and for which he couldn't atone even if he twisted himself into pretzels (and to be fair, there's been very little pretzel-twisting, and a whole lot of "let's not think about that stuff, I'm not that guy now"... vigorously sweeping under the rug and pointing to squirrels). But does that mean he is a horrible person, to this day?  If i define him as horrible based on his previous actions, then I am indeed a fool to reconcile.

On the other hand, flawed as he is, obtuse as he sometimes is, post-MLC H is trying to be not horrible. Some days he doesn't try hard enough, and I remember too much (I also don't have a lot of patience these days). Some days I can blithely forget he ever was horrible, and am content to live in the present.

I'm not sure this is much of an advertisement for reconciling  ;D  but I also don't feel foolish for trying it. I do have friends who roll their eyes at my life in a "can't you do better?" kind of way. I suspect for them, an infraction like my H's would colour his entire character forevermore, and reconciliation would be off the table (or they would see themselves as doormats, and their self esteem would take a hit). Perhaps I just compartmentalize better? Or maybe I'm living in the present in a different way than they do. None of these are wrong answers, I think.
Title: Re: Old Timers thread 4
Post by: in it on December 28, 2018, 02:46:51 PM
 I just thought the other day in September of 2019 I'll be divorced for 9 years :o

Although this last five weren't terribly easy for me to put myself back together, these nine years have flown by compared to the years I was married, which felt like a life sentence. And I sure as hell won't take that kind of mistreatment again.

And you are always IMHO are going to have some baggage going into a new relationship. You work on yourself and your own issues best you can then be with someone who loves you enough that can help you unpack. That's for both people in the relationship. Keep the communication up so there are very few misunderstandings.

Relationships are not without work. Sometimes that's all the explanation that me or my SO need when we seem to have hit some sort of oddness..one just says  "Baggage"..then "it's ohhh ok no problem."

I'm very happy in the new relationship I have now. Both of us actually ask each other that. Are you happy?
And by happy  I don't mean holding hands skipping down the street into the sunset teenage style.
We are content, comfortable with each other.

And as hard as it may be to trust someone again. I'd much rather risk trusting someone new over the old in my situation.
Title: Re: Old Timers thread 4
Post by: Anjae on December 28, 2018, 02:51:59 PM
I would love to have a new husband. But, like I said many time, I am not going out of my way to have a new relationship. I am opened to one, but I am not chasing one.

Of course there is a difference between having a husband and companionship from friends and relatives.

No one else measures up to the fine, gentle, good looking, strong, funny, empathetic, affectionate, helpful, resourceful, companionable man he is

This applies to the pre-MLC Mr J. It is kind of a problem for me because other men hardly measure up to pre-MLC Mr J. Then, I remeber other men didn't become monster MLC Mr J.

The other thing that is a problem is that Mr J never smoked and his pre-MLC self didn't drink, aside from the odd drink on a special occasion. I have noticed that many men drink. By drink, I mean they have one, or two drinks, a day. And many smoke.

Not sure where I will find a unicorn of a man again  ???... must be one out there ...  :)

We share so  many interests and tastes.

We shared many interests and tastes. We even created project together. Early on Mr J's crisis we still shared interests and tastes. Since, we become more and more different. We both still like music, but no longer the same type. I like the type(s) I always did, Mr J is into clubbing music and some stuff from the past we never liked.

I agree about those who had a good relationship and whose MLCer was not that horrible. Like my counsin. Even if he and his wife would need to improve some things on their relationship. Or better, my cousin needs to stop being so jealous (not a MLC thing, he always was) and to realize how lucky he is with his wife.

My view of relationships didn't change that much. I still believe people can be together forever, I still believe in love. And, of course, I know that from a certain point in life everyone comes with "baggage".


I was 18 when we become a couple. Not going to want an 18 years old girl to have the experience of a 50 years old woman. Same for my 28 years old self, when I got married. What I would put up with now, is not the same as before. MLC or no MLC, 50 is not 18 or 28. It is not even 37, nearly 38, the age I was when Mr J left.

Now Mr J is still an horrible person deep in Replay. Less horrible than four or more years ago. At least it has been a few years since he last did some really horrendous thing. He also didn't made any amends concerning all the nasty he has done for years. He just seem static.

But that is the thing, isn't it? Even if now they are not horrible, nasty, terrible, they were for years on end. They were that person who was abusive for years on end. I believe in atonement, just not certain it means one has to reconcile. Of course I know we don't have to reconcile. What I mean is, now the MLCer can be amazing, but it does not erase their actions.

I am 100% certain out of crisis Mr J will not be horrible and will try everything he can to try to make amends. But ... he will still be the person who hurt me the most and who did things that should see him in jail, from physical abuse to several illegal things regarding our joint accounts, etc.

Probably, there wouldn't be many problems with my family. One of my sisters become friends with Mr J on Facebook some time ago. My younger brother aside, who would freak, the others would most likely be fine with him. Mum likes him, my other sisters and brothers also do, aunt likes him, cousins as well.

Friends also wouldn't be problematic. Many don't have a clue about what really happened. A handful know about the affair with OW1, if after all these years they still remember it, a couple know about the physical abuse and court crazy, but those also know he is having some sort of crisis.

It is me who has no interest in him/does not find him interesting/finds him a bore and who likes him the least. Or better, who does not like or dislike him. 

There are no right or wrong answers, I think. Like there is not right or wrong. Reconciling or not reconciling is up to each LBS.

Mostly, I am just putting questions out there. It is interesting to debate these matters and reads others points of view.


Sometimes that's all the explanation that me or my SO need when we seem to have hit some sort of oddness..one just says  "Baggage"..then "it's ohhh ok no problem."

Loved it. Great way of handling things.

Hey, I love "holding hands skipping down the street into the sunset".  ;) ;D
Title: Re: Old Timers thread 4
Post by: in it on December 28, 2018, 03:01:51 PM
 ;D ;D ;D Yeah Anjae that holding hands- skipping - sunset seeking- rainbow pot of gold searching - la la land -happily ever after thing
Not very realistic.
Title: Re: Old Timers thread 4
Post by: readytofixmyselffirst on December 28, 2018, 03:07:56 PM
Hello,

I am sitting here and reflecting on where I am now. Lot of time has gone by since BD. Over eight years have gone by rather swiftly. Now I am here looking forward for my new wife to come home and we can go out to have a nice meal together.

It is back to normal for me if you can define normal. We celebrated the holidays as a family. No one was walking on eggshells. No ex Mrs. Ready eating and then sneaking off to the office to go online. I don't go to bed by myself while my spouse sleeps in another room.

I've been to Napa, the Grand Canyon, the Rocky Mountains, Maui, San Diego, and a cruise. We share time together as a family and time together as a couple. Of course, I cannot ever forget our two weeks together in Italy. This summer will be a family vacation in New York.

But more importantly is to be with someone that deeply cares about me. Someone that smiles when I walk in the room. Someone that no matter where she is in the room, we can look at each other and connect. That is what I love the most.

Yes, we have our issues, and our disagreements, but nothing that comes between us. I work hard at trying to stay in shape and stay away from sweets. I love them so much!!!!

Someone asked me if I would have stayed with Mrs. Ready if she had wanted to come back. The answer is of course. I was committed to my wedding vows and prior to her departure, she could have easily committed back to the relationship and I would have worked with her. However, she hasn't changed a bit. She still gaslights issues and lies about everything. She moves between jobs every couple of years and blames the boss or coworkers. Even my youngest commented how much she still lies and that most of all, she believes her lies.

Anjae- I think the LBSer is more responsible and still wants what is best for the children. Not paying my alimony and child support would have invariably hurt my youngest daughter. I would never let that happen. Plus, I keep to my commitments!

On my side, I would be less than transparent not to say I feel fear from time to time. The new Mrs. Ready is incredible. She is also the same age that my ex was when she went into MLC. Will I be ready for my world to turn upside down again? Can I sustain a new bomb drop? What if I go into MLC?

I try my best to shake the fears and move forward. I do my best to look at my actions and how I interact with my new family- after all, if I have learned only one thing from this forum is that I can only control myself and the only person I can work on is myself.

Great thread, and I hope I am helping not hurting!

((((Hugs)))

Ready
Title: Re: Old Timers thread 4
Post by: Anjae on December 28, 2018, 03:23:07 PM
;D ;D ;D Yeah Anjae that holding hands- skipping - sunset seeking- rainbow pot of gold searching - la la land -happily ever after thing
Not very realistic.

I know a few old couples for whom it is quite realistic.  :) One of them lives around the corner.

But more importantly is to be with someone that deeply cares about me. Someone that smiles when I walk in the room. Someone that no matter where she is in the room, we can look at each other and connect.

You didn't have that with your x-wife before she was in MLC? That was Mr J and I before MLC hit him.

I think the LBSer is more responsible and still wants what is best for the children. Not paying my alimony and child support would have invariably hurt my youngest daughter. I would never let that happen. Plus, I keep to my commitments!

Of course, Ready. It is just interesting that the men who mess up don't often pay a thing, and the ones who don't do = female LBS are left in troubles.

Oh, what if our new spouse/partner goes into MLC? We never know, do we? Some here have had two marriages that end up with a spouse in MLC. Ursa comes to mind, but he is not the only one. What if we have a MLC (I've already had mine, so I think I'm safe from a new one)? We can't say for sure we will not have a MLC.

You're helping.  :) It is great to see you posting again.

I know several real life MLCers. Some are people I have known since my teens. They have done horrible things. Several of them are still in MLC. I don't know all the details, but a couple married the OW and had children with her. One of them left his boys in our capital and moved with OW to the a rural place in the middle of nowhere.

One guy I know who has been out of MCL for a very long time, married OW and had children with her. When divorced OW he tried to get back with his LBS, but she had moved on.

I also know single people that are having a MLC. The damages those cause are different, no marriage is destroyed. But they can still cause a mess. Like marry the wrong person, hurt that person and themselves, or not marry, but have children with someone that is a mess. Single MCLers tend to turn agains a parent and/or sibling, or a close friend.
Title: Re: Old Timers thread 4
Post by: readytofixmyselffirst on December 29, 2018, 07:14:55 PM
Quote
You didn't have that with your x-wife before she was in MLC? That was Mr J and I before MLC hit him.

It's hard to say. It's close but different. But different circumstances. My new wife and I both dealt with cheating spouses. We are more focused on the relationship and each other. Our children are grown and even though they still need our help, we don't have to focus the same attention we did when they were little.

So now I feel as if I am back to some new normal. Fixed my car today, went shopping with Mrs. Ready, now watching Netflix with her. Then off to bed so we can get ready together for the New Year.

Just a mundane quiet day and I love it!

(((Hugs)))

Ready

Title: Re: Old Timers thread 4
Post by: Anjae on December 30, 2018, 03:19:25 PM
We don't have children, so we didn't had to focus on them. We're planning to have, but Mr J left.

We were quite focussed on the relationship and on each other. Of course I have no way of comparing with a second marriage because I still don't have one.

Another who loves quiet mundane days.

There was no Netflix by then, but watching tv series and movies was something Mr J and I loved.

Hugs and a Happy 2019 to you and Mrs. Ready.
Title: Re: Old Timers thread 4
Post by: xyzcf on January 04, 2019, 11:30:48 AM
I had a box, full of journals from "that" time..perhaps 14 in all..pages and pages of "documentation" of everything he said, how I felt......I had marked the box "private, do not read" and I have never gone back and read any of the journals. I did not want anyone to ever read them..especially our daughter.

Why did I keep these for so long? I thought maybe I would need "proof" if he didn't comply with the separation agreement, I often thought about getting rid of them.

I just spent an hour with my shredder. Ripping, shredding, emptying into one large garbage back and finally placing it all in the trash.

It is a very positive thing for me to have done.

I continue in therapy. There are still areas to flush out, to heal....she can get me there...she has helped me sooooooo much.

His contact continues to be pretty regular. I had dinner with him in Dec, he brought me gifts, beautiful cards for my birthday and Christmas..cards that confuse me....

He was not included in our Christmas gathering this year.

It is still very bizarre to me, why he maintains contact but I guess I am used to bizarre by now.

I am well. I started a very small job as a nurse and that makes me really happy. I keep busy with many activities and friends. I entertain friends at my home and have adjusted to living alone. I like my home and the the state I live in...the sunshine is fabulous.

I wrote on another thread that my life is sterile and loveless. Anjae challenged me on that and so I have given it some thought...it is how I feel. Sometimes I feel like I am in a play, each day, going through my "routines" until bedtime comes.

I still miss him very much. I think I always will.
Title: Re: Old Timers thread 4
Post by: Anjae on January 04, 2019, 03:14:51 PM
I have long got rig of all my journals from BD and afterwards. Even now, I fill one and shred it. All the evidence I may need is in e-mails, Mr J and OW1 and a little with OW2 correspondence and other documents.

Besides, he already told a court all I said he did and happened is true. And since, there were no more court cases. And there will not be.

Xyzcf, If you feel your life sterile and loveless, then, that is how you feel. On the other hand, I am feeling very alive and vibrant. I guess each of us feels differently about things after a few years.

I think your husband, like Mitz one, still contacts, brings presents, etc. because both of you have always allowed them to be part of your life. If I had let him, Mr J would still be the king of clingers, always coming around - of phoning/e-mailing/texting. Since he leads another life, does not pay alimony and has OW (or had) he is not going to be part of my life.

He made his choice when he left October 2006.
Title: Re: Old Timers thread 4
Post by: xyzcf on January 04, 2019, 04:49:19 PM
Quote
I think your husband, like Mitz one, still contacts, brings presents, etc. because both of you have always allowed them to be part of your life. If I had let him, Mr J would still be the king of clingers, always coming around - of phoning/e-mailing/texting. Since he leads another life, does not pay alimony and has OW (or had) he is not going to be part of my life.

The number one reason why I allow contact is that I believe in the permanency of marriage as I would say others do as well, Mitzpah and Trusting who are both long time standers.

We also have children with these husbands and try hard to make things a bit easier for our kids.

Mitz and I also were in 30 plus year marriages.

I  continue to believe that he could come home one day. We are seeing some long timers situation changing, serenity, songanddance. I have always felt that allowing contact, showing unconditional and agape love is what is right, no matter whether he returns or not.

Clinging boomerangers do continue to initiate contact. As I have expressed, I am surprised that he still does.

I still want him. That has never changed and so yes, I allow him to initiate contact and I respond.

The idea that we once discussed of the little boy getting on the school bus for the first day of school who keeps looking back to see if mom is still there rings true to me.

I also believe that there is something really wrong with him, mentally, spiritually and physically. For me, allowing contact means that I will not have any regrets in the future should something happen to him.

I deal better now with it..more detached I guess.

Everyone's situation is different. Each of us decide for ourselves how we want to live out this journey.
Title: Re: Old Timers thread 4
Post by: Anjae on January 04, 2019, 06:03:11 PM
I spend 20 years with Mr J. Which is a very long time for someone who was 18 when we got together. It would had been impossible at the time of BD to have been in a 30 plus years relationship with Mr J since we were in our 30's. At times, the "we were in a 30 plus marriage" sounds condescending an like "those of you who weren't have no idea how it is" or "it may be easier for you because it wasn't so long". For some of us it was impossible, we weren't old enough. And now that we are, we don't have the chance. Our spouse walked away. 

We don't have children because he left when we had decided to have them. But I don't think it is the having children that makes the difference. No shortage of LBS with children with the MLCer in a new relationship or marriage.

As for the permanency of marriage, evidently, it is not permanent. If it was, it would still exist. It doesn't. Be it because there is divorce, because the couple is long separated and the MLCer living with someone else. There is no marriage. 

Yes, some long time MLCer are reconnecting. But neither Serenity nor Songanddance have a husband who divorced them 9 years down the road or who is still deep in Replay 12 years after BD. Serenity is at the 7 years mark, I think (maybe less?) and Song, 5 about to be 6. While ours continue in their crisis years after theirs start to reconnect.

Mitz one seems to be fine with his life and with in going by the house often. It has been 8 years and counting since BD for him and he does not seem to be much changed. He comes, he goes, he is nice, but fully come out of crisis is not happening for now.

Trusandlove is the one HS member of those who still post with some regularity who has a MLCer only a little short in his crisis than Mr J. Her husband is still where the buses don't run. Doesn't look any of the three, your husband, Trust's husband or Mr J is about to end his replay.

Since we are all very different and have different levels of contact with them, it does not seem to have anything to do with having, or not having contact with them. I have no idea what they are doing for so long deep in MLC.

Of course clinging boomerangers do continue to initiate contact. Even Mr J does it at times. And, like I said, he would still be around, or in contact all the time if I had let him. It wasn't him who decided to cut contact. It was I who cut it. It was impossible to deal with his nasty, anger, ups and down and my mental sanity was suffering.

There is something very wrong with MLCers mentally and spiritually and with a few physically. I "regret" (the phase of regrets is over) to have allowed so much contact after BD and in the early years. Did me no good and served no purpose. Doubt it had done any good to Mr J as well.

Agape love is fine, but it is not the type of love for a marriage/a spouse.
Title: Re: Old Timers thread 4
Post by: xyzcf on January 04, 2019, 06:08:45 PM
Quote
Agape love is fine, but it is not the type of love for a marriage/a spouse.

That is your view and you are entitled to it.

It doesn't fit for my belief that marriage IS permanent and indissolvable. Without that belief, you cannot understand why I feel this way.

Quote
But neither Serenity nor Songanddance have a husband who divorced them 9 years down the road

That's pretty low Anjae.

I wrote an update of where I am at today..just that, No need to pick apart what my beliefs are and always have been.
Title: Re: Old Timers thread 4
Post by: Anjae on January 04, 2019, 06:23:20 PM
It is not my view of agape love, it is what agape love is. I didn't invent it, the Ancient Greeks did. Agape love is general, detached love for others/mankind.

It has nothing romamtic/amorous in it. It has nothing to do with the "I love you" we say/feel for a spouse.

I can understand you have that kind of universal love for your husband, but agape love does not sustain marital love. For example, it does not involve intimacy. Marriage does. 

It has nothing to do with low. I also wrote that Mr J is still deep in Replay after more than 12 years of BD.

I  continue to believe that he could come home one day. We are seeing some long timers situation changing, serenity, songanddance

You were mentioning long time situations changing, in the sense of reconnection. That is not what happened/is happening to you. Or I. Or Trustandlove. Or even Mitz. If you want to call facts low, so be it.

But, it is a fact. Ours are still deep in replay while theirs are reconnecting years before ours even try.

5 years is not exactly long, long term. And I am not certain of Serenity timeline. Her first thread is from 2013, but it does not mean BD wasn't before.

Of course your husband can come home one day. Pretty much all MLCers want to come back home one day, once their crisis is over.  And yours, Mitz and Trustandlove have very good, if not perfect, changed or reconciling because you're willing to.
Title: Re: Old Timers thread 4
Post by: Nerissa on January 05, 2019, 03:04:54 AM
It’s a decision I’m finding really hard: whether to maintain connection or not.  Currently I’m not because I really needed to break the attachment for my own health.  But he wants to be ’friends’.  I put it in inverted commas because I don’t see how he will invest in friendship in the way I would want.  He wants to be in touch with me and his children when it suits him as far  as I can see.  He speaks of agape love and uses Buddhist teachings on love, but the reality is that the sacrifice and psychological struggle comes from me.

Where, for each of us, is the distinction between being open and forgiving and being used?  I can’t see it in my own case yet at least.  It is obviously my pride and ego that makes me resist an offer of friendship that doesn’t hurt me as long as I maintain boundaries, but how do I get there?  How do I cease seeing it as me giving and him taking?  And ultimately, which path is best for me and my children?
Title: Re: Old Timers thread 4
Post by: Treasur on January 05, 2019, 04:48:42 AM
Fwiw I think agape love helps us to reach the bit of ourselves that can try to take it less personally and wish them no harm. But when you are collateral damage, and often unacknowledged or unvalidated as that, it takes real effort. I suspect we have to feel safe enough from further damage first to get there.

And feeling agape love does not necessarily need an active relationship of any sort with that person or any action on our part probably except from maybe choosing to 'do no harm' maybe.  If the situation changes, it may be something to draw on that might help any kind of reconnection, no matter how limited, but it isn't the same as an active intimate love or even a reciprocal loving friendship imho.
Title: Re: Old Timers thread 4
Post by: trusting on January 05, 2019, 07:37:26 AM
My understanding of agape love is it doesn't require anything from the person being loved - no strings attached.  One thing that helped me have a "friendship" with my MLCer is when I finally got to the point of truly understanding that he didn't have much (or anything) to give me, not while he was in crisis.  I stopped expecting anything.  They don't know how to maintain healthy relationships of any sort in crisis state.  I certainly don't invest the same amount of energy as I would with a "real" friend, one who will reciprocate.  I will say as his crisis winds down, his ability to give has improved.   

I think that keeping distance is good if it is needed to preserve our hearts and our mental health.
Title: Re: Old Timers thread 4
Post by: readytofixmyselffirst on January 05, 2019, 08:05:08 AM
Hello,

I am reading the posts and I don't think it is fair or kind to attack the beliefs and faith of another that posts on this site.

I was in the military for slightly over a decade. When we discussed military strategy, it has been determined that in a company of soldiers (between 100- 160 soldiers ) five soldiers would determine the outcome. Most would be hiding. Shooting into the air, only five would take their time to carefully aim and fire.

Now the question is? Which five? No one knows. The brave soldier of today could run tomorrow. The one crying behind the tree last week could lead the charge.

The point is that we can't even predict our own behavior in a given circumstance let alone the behaviors of others.

This site should be about building and supporting each other. I give advice, I empathize, and I support the decisions made by people, many of whom are in great pain.

Quote
I  continue to believe that he could come home one day.

What a beautiful statement and I truly hope it comes true. You are and always will be a remarkable person. I still have the cd you sent me and you were an inspiration at my darkest moments. I have never forgotten and will always be in your debt.

I also see that you are in therapy and you are working on yourself. That is noteworthy and I hope you continue to get better.

I wished I had some answers, but I don't. After the divorce, my ex invited me to spend Christmas with her up in Washington. I declined because I knew me feelings were too strong and it would be awkward at best. Was she signaling something? I don't know. Wished I could read the tea leaves. She never contacted me after that.

Now, I just try each day to make the world a little better for the people around me and as long as my intent is sound, I am content.

((((Hugs))))

Ready
 
Title: Re: Old Timers thread 4
Post by: Mitzpah on January 05, 2019, 10:04:02 AM
Thanks Ready for your kind words :)

 My love for my husband transcends this crisis - each one of us knows what we can put up with. It is obvious that there is no marriage in my case and there hasn't been since before Bd for him and since Bd for me. I chose to stand and pray for my husband regardless of what he would do.

I don't really claim to have a "knowing" that my h. is coming home - only today, my mother prophesied over me - he will be back. IDK, it is not in her hands, nor mine. It is the hands of God whom I serve.

My way of dealing with my husband arises out of respect, honor and love for him, as well as knowing that my kids benefit from a friendly relationship between us.

Agape love - yes! Eros - on my part, yes! Phillia - yes! Pragma - yes!!!

As I have said before - my life goes on, I have responsibilities to my family, my church family and my job - I need to be healthy and in one piece to carry these out for as long as I live, right?

Sterile, loveless existence - in terms of a husband yes - I feel it keenly, however, I have a lot to do, which is probably a good thing ;)

Over eight years of this is tiring, so I can empathize with Xyzcf, Anjae, Trustandlove and Trusting as they have been at this even longer and are alone as I am.

It is good to see that Anjae is feeling alive and joyful - I have moments like this, often when I am with my whole family (yes, including h.  ;)).

Perhaps this is the way life will go for me?  There are worst things.

Got to get ready to go the cinema with d23...
Title: Re: Old Timers thread 4
Post by: Believer on January 05, 2019, 02:19:42 PM
It’s nice to have a spot for those of us who have been at this for a long time. I certainly didn’t anticipate how long I’d be on this journey. It’s been almost ten years, and I believe he’s still in replay.

I learned before Christmas that my MLCer is getting married this summer to the OW.  They are “mountain biking” their way into the sunset.

We talk very little, I try to check in with him periodically however he’s uncomfortable in my presence.
I recently reached out to him to have coffee and chat about our daughter and MIL. He responded that he’d failed me and others. However, he’s also learned not to judge people, but rather to accept them as they are including himself. He closed stating that the sadness I’ve experienced was his responsibility, and he finds my strength inspiring.

I suspect I won’t hear from him anytime soon. I was surprised that he was getting married - it kinda knocked me off my footings. As a result I decided to follow up with my therapist to help work through this.
 
I like you still believe in my MLCer and our marriage. I’m not interested in another relationship at this time, perhaps not ever.

However, Ready I’m so happy to hear how your life is being blessed with a new Mrs.Ready. You have always been a true gentleman and wonderful father  - you deserve a the very best.

For now I’m focused on reframing his upcoming marriage so I can get my feet back under me.

When it’s been such a long time it’s really difficult for others to understand how I can still believe in my MLCer so having you guys is so valuable. A safe and supportive place to land :-)







 
Title: Re: Old Timers thread 4
Post by: Anjae on January 05, 2019, 03:47:15 PM
MItz, I would be miserable if I had crisis Mr J around me. There were years of his crisis self constat presence one way or another - mostly not physical, but e-mail, etc. It was hell.

The only thing I feel for Mr J at time, if I see a picture where he looks more like his old self, is physical attraction. However, that is rare since mostly he looks like a bad version of FIL.

Lets see. Love? No. Respect? No. Honour? No. Impossible to have any of those things for the existing person. For the former person, a vague gentle sweat love.

I am alone because, so far, no one I liked and find suitable come along. If it will, I don't think I will be alone. I very much would like a new partner/husband. But I am not going to have one just because.


Hi Believer, nice to see another Old Timer posting. Seems there are more of us with long time/very long time MLCers.

If your husband just married the OW he is most likely still in Replay. Or he felt Liminality/rock bottom aproaching and did something that provide a high for a while longer.
Title: Re: Old Timers thread 4
Post by: Believer on January 05, 2019, 04:03:47 PM
Sorry Anjae I wasn’t  clear. My MLCer will be getting married this coming summer.
Yes, I agree still in replay or as you say felt a bit of rock bottom and needed something to fix that.

I can appreciate what you say about your feelings for the present version they are.  Sorry feel nothing for you honey. In the rare moments there is a glint of my old h I can feel my heart warm.

Title: Re: Old Timers thread 4
Post by: Anjae on January 05, 2019, 04:28:56 PM
If your MLCer is going to get married this coming Summer, maybe he never will. I have a friend who has been having a MLC for years. Not a very agressive MLC and he was single when it hit (he was long divorced, amicable not MLC connected divorce).

My friend had years of dating one woman after the other. Then he decided to marry one, it was going to be in Spring. It never happened.

Not saying your husband will not marry OW, just that with MLCers anything can happen.

It would be dishonest to say my feelings for Mr J's current version are what they are not. It wasn't always that way. At BD and in the early years it was the usual confusion of feeling LBS have.

Mr J left over 12 years ago and is still deep in Replay. Always finding a new thing to keep him from going to rock bottom. Mostly finding a new djing partner or a new place to go dj.

It seems him and OW2 are no more. The djing is still going strong. His main problem is the djing/clubbing. We have friends who also got into djing so those guys kind of not see anything wrong with the whole thing.

I saw Mr J about a year ago, by chance. I had went out to a concert, he was djing in town and I didn't even want to come near. The friend I was with and I meet the bands and other people at the concert, then everyone just went downtown. At a point, I knew we were going to end up were Mr J was djing.

Wasn't going to make a scene, so I went. It was fine. For me, at least. I went by the dj booth, said hi and Mr J freaked and was dead scared. I went back to where my friend was and keep talking. When leaving, Mr J put his hand on my left shoulder and said "so goodnight".

He and some other people were going to hit some place that was open till morning. Before I enter the place I saw SIL and OW2. I was very pleasant with both, greeted SIL and even smiled to OW2.

Mr J looked horrible and his music was lousy. Friend, who knows us since we're teenagers, but who hadn't seen Mr J in ages since Mr J lives in the capital was horrified at the music and keep asking what had happened for his music tastes to have changed.

There is no way I would want a thing to do with the version I saw. It seems he solves all his problems djing. Be it when MLC hit, when he left, when he and OW1 broke and now that OW2 seems to be gone.

He never stops. He himself told me more than once that he cannot stop because if he does he will start to think about all he had done and he cannot deal with it.

Maybe he should think how he lost the three women of his life. He will not, since as a dj he will have no trouble finding a new woman. Yet, somehow, I don't think he is that insterested this time. But since it was OW2 who went to him, he may not say no if one decides to date him.
Title: Re: Old Timers thread 4
Post by: Believer on January 05, 2019, 06:56:08 PM
It’s incredible the effort they can go to to avoid hitting rock bottom.

Mr J uses his djing and mine has been biking in100km races and distance running to keep him going.

In the few times I’ve seen my exH he tends to get teary. He even does this with our daughter, he’s hardly seen her since he left. He took her to dinner to tell her he was getting married. That didn’t go well and D shared exactly what she felt. In the end he was in tears.

I have no idea if he’ll ever come out of this. I can’t help to wonder if his stubborn personality is a factor in the length of his crisis. Hmm he’s is extremely skilled at avoiding conflict... not surprisingly

Good for you that you were so calm and collective when you crossed paths. I admire that you even smiled at OW2. I haven’t ever seen his OW, she lives 2.5 hours away. He goes there every weekend to visit, has been since he left. I’m not sure how I’ll react when I do.

I figure he must be just as conflict avoidant with OW. I don’t see how those characteristics can remain hidden.
Title: Re: Old Timers thread 4
Post by: Anjae on January 05, 2019, 07:43:31 PM
Yes it is. And for so many years.

Riding in 100km races! Phew! The things they do.

I only saw Mr J four times since I come back home over a decade ago. 2 times in social events, once in 2008 another in 2018, in 2007 when he come here with the excuse he need some files from our by then computer - he could had asked me to burn a CDR and sent it to him, and in 2014 at family court.

2007 he was still chatty. 2008 we cheek kissed, normal social greeting here and that was it. 2014 we didn't exchanged a word, but spend some time reading side by side in the court waiting room while our lawyers were with the judge. 2018 I already told.

Last time I heard Mr J crying was on the phone, May 2007. When I was still in the capital I would get a mix of tear, rage, violence, normal than it all again. Sometimes in minutes. Or days. Or hours. It was quite confusing.

Mr J is the king of conflict with me. Court cases, mostly very nasty and agressive if we happen to have contact, even just e-mail. We rarely have any contact. I couldn't deal with his mood swings and nastiness.

No idea how the post secret affair relationship with OW1 was or how the relationship with OW2 was.

He does not live here nor does OW2 (or OW1). It was easy to smile at her all those years down the road. She was the one with the man on the dj booth who had to spend the whole night not being able to talk to him or dance with him while in a place where people dance.
Title: Re: Old Timers thread 4
Post by: Adia on January 06, 2019, 02:16:52 PM
Hello all,

I do not post anymore, but still find myself reading threads almost nightly. I feel like an old timer as I am almost in my seventh year (BD May 2012) divorced since June 2015.

My ex husband and I rarely see one another but we did see one another for a few minutes this past week. It is very strange to be around someone that you've known for 30 years and feel their uncomfortableness and to silently remind yourself not to reach out and touch them. It kind of broke my heart a little bit and I understand why it's probably best for me not to see him.

He still continues to contact me although he is still in the same relationship he started with ow in early 2011. It has evolved, in my mindset at least, as they bought a house together last July. So the story he told me at BD about not wanting the responsibility of a home and family is ironic....

He seems to have a huge amount of guilt and has been financially (I am thankful) helpful to me and our adult sons, whom both still live with me. My oldest has had an issue with opioid addiction and has wrecked his life multiple times and although my ex helps some, financially, it is I who does the heavy lifting day to day with our kids. I do the 50 hour work weeks and take my oldest to the methodone clinic and his part-time job seven days a week, there is never a day off for me.

 My exh continues to live his new life with ow, hikes excessively, climbs 14ers, and still runs (our), now solely his, company. He has not been able to integrate his two separate lives as our kids want nothing to do with his new family.

He has not introduced ow to his siblings although they are all Facebook friends🙄. When he's traveled back east to visit his siblings he never takes her, but has traveled extensively to be with her family. Weird.

He rarely sees our sons and seemingly has a very close relationship with her adult children, one whom lives with them still. 

I don't know anymore if he is still in his mid-life crisis or if he's out and has just made the conscious choice to stay where he's at with her.

For myself and where I'm at in all of this, I truly question my sanity at times because I still feel love for him. As much as I believed in the beginning of this that we'd survive his crisis and be together again, I think now I'm accepting that we will not.
 
❤️ Adia

Title: Re: Old Timers thread 4
Post by: Anjae on January 06, 2019, 02:28:56 PM


Hi Adia,

Thank you for posting. Seven years? You're and old timer for sure.

I think like many of our spouses your husband is still in MLC. When HS come we weren't aware so many would be having such long term MLCers.

It is really ironic MLCers want no responsability, then buy a home with OW/OM, marry OW/OM and some even have a kid (or more) with OW/OM. Sounds like a lot of responsability to me.

Some MLCers introduce OW/OM to their family, others do not.

You don't know how things will unfold. You may still end up together.

Try to find some time just for yourself. Don't think you can keep doing everything for your adults sons. They're adults. I understand one of them as addiction problems, but can't he found someone to sponsor him?
Title: Re: Old Timers thread 4
Post by: Believer on January 06, 2019, 09:35:03 PM
Hi Adia,

Good to have you share.

It really is difficult to make any sense of how they behave and for how long they drag this out.

My exH doesn’t spend much time with our daughter however like yours seems to have a good relationship with his ow’s children.

I echo your comment about how strange it is to be in their presence and not to reach out. I very much struggle with this aspect. I like you recognize it’s better not to see him.

My daughter only recently met the OW after all these years. She isn’t at all supportive of their upcoming marriage.

My exH and his ow won’t even be living together when they marry this summer. He’s going to remain living at his brother’s home in our city until he retires which won’t be for at least another 1 year after they marry. He’ll then move 2.5 hours away to live with his new wife and family.
It’s the oddest thing in my mind

I smiled when you wondered about your own sanity. I feel the same way “ am I crazy “ for loving him still.

As Anjae said you just never know how things will unfold.

Hugs !
Title: Re: Old Timers thread 4
Post by: Trustandlove on January 07, 2019, 02:16:11 AM
Happy New Year, everyone!

I hadn't been on for a while, just came on and read this thread, and Anjae's comment made me smile -- that my H is "still where the buses don't run".  Yes, she's right, that's about it in a nutshell.

It's been many years for me, I have no contact with my H, he is in irregular contact with our children, but there doesn't appear to be any real relationship. 

One thing I am very sad about is that my children no longer really remember him being "the good Dad", being at home with us and engaged with our family life.  They were young then, they are young adults now.  They have a lot of hurt and anger still about it, they do their best to not let it affect them, but the whole thing does have a lasting effect.  We talk about it and acknowledge it; our latest line is that "acceptance doesn't mean endorsement". 

Like so many say, I don't like the current version of my H that I see (or hear about, rather, or sometimes see on social media), it is very far from what I knew.  I do love my husband, wherever he may be, but accept that the current version of him, or the current person inhabiting his body, or however it can be put, is someone completely different. 

I don't really think about him "coming back"; I've always known that if he were to want to, I/we would deal with it then, and the person "coming back" would be in some way different to the one that is there now, and I have no idea what that might look like at this point.

Is he still in replay/crisis/whatever?  Sometimes I think that rather than being in full crisis, he is living the consequences of his actions during crisis, if that makes any sense.  He doesn't contact me so I no longer have any direct experience, this is just what I hear from others.  He may well be wondering how the h - e - double toothpicks he got where he is, but if that is a problem for him it's to something I know about.

I'm as happy as I can be; it makes me sad to see that all sorts of "guidance on divorce" is bandied about this time of year, but my life is reasonably settled and I'm not looking for another relationship.  My line to my friends is that I'm not ruling it out, but I'm not out looking, and that ends the conversation. 

My children refuse to meet the latest OW, it may well happen someday if, for example, they attend an event hosted by someone in H's family, but otherwise that drama is away from our daily life. 

So here's to another year of calm, everyday life!

Title: Re: Old Timers thread 4
Post by: HeartTattoo on January 07, 2019, 04:45:13 AM
Coming up on the six-year anniversary of BD. H said he didn’t want to make his revelations too soon before Christmas or too soon afterwards, but the memories of our last Christmas together as a family still haunt me & produce some free-floating anxiety around the Christmas festivities even still.

One month before BD I had arranged a pre-Christmas weekend get-away at an historic village & H had made no protest at the plans. We walked around in the lightly falling snow holding hands, listening to the musical programs, sitting companionably in our Shaker-styled bedroom, him reading & me sewing on the quilt I would give our oldest son at Christmas.

Four weeks later I would wake on another Saturday to learn how “unhappy” he was “in our M” & that he was moving out to live with the OW he had known for five years & I had not had any clue about.

By the actual anniversary in January I am fine, occupied with putting away Christmas decorations & getting on with my plans for the New Year. My H is a vanisher—two or three emails a year, in the last year matter-of-factly informing me of an inadvertently late alimony payment, or late last year when his lucrative job was threatened, wondering if I would “forgive” his last year of payments.

I am a few months away from three years with a new partner. He is a good, hard-working man & I care for him, though I have never felt “in love” with him. We are compatible in many ways & he is more emotionally present to me than my H ever was. But, I will never marry him or live with him. We each have homes that suit our lifestyles & I know we are each too “set in our ways” to live happily together. Pre-retirement planning keeps us both protective of our individually hard-won financial independence.

I sometimes think about what I would do if H found his way out of the tunnel & wanted a R with me again. I sincerely doubt this will happen. Two & half years after BD when he insisted upon D & then M’ed the OW two weeks after the final papers, I gave up on the persistent hopes I had for an eventual reunion. Two years after BD I would have readily jumped back into our marital R. At this point, I would say, OK, let’s try to be friends, you set up your independent life, & we’ll work on gingerly unearthing the R buried under tons of rubble, otherwise known as his lies, his deceptions, & the damage he inflicted upon me & our kids.

My Plan A is to keep on keeping on, loving my little home, participating more in my new community, being a present parent to my grown children, baking cookies for my new guy & enjoying the breakfasts he cooks for me.
Title: Re: Old Timers thread 4
Post by: in it on January 07, 2019, 05:41:05 AM
HT
That "in love" feeling can be fleeting. I'd rather love someone and have them love me.

I'm glad you have a good kind man in your life.
If this works for you stay with it.
Title: Re: Old Timers thread 4
Post by: Thunder on January 07, 2019, 06:01:05 AM
I agree with In It.  He sounds like a good man Heart, and you seem happy with him.   :)

If or when your H ever comes out of his crisis, just deal with it then.  Keep living your life, it sounds lovely.
Title: Re: Old Timers thread 4
Post by: Believer on January 07, 2019, 06:38:11 AM
Trustandlove and HeartTattoo,

Thank you for your wonderful posts. I could feel the calm in you both as I read them.
That calm is what I’m focused on achieving as well. I struggle at times however can honestly see it just on the horizon.

Trust, I love your line "acceptance doesn't mean endorsement".  I’m going to adopt that perspective.
My daughter and I both still struggle with exH and what hurts most is that struggle spills over into our relationship. That’s the relationship I want to put my energy toward.
I like your perspective on if he ever asked to come back. Dealing with it then doesn’t rob you of being present today

HT,
How nice for you that you have found a partner that you have been able to find a balance with.
I can appreciate the desire to protect your hard won financial independence.
I enjoyed your description of how you would handle it if H ever wanted a R with you. So wise and genuine.
Btw your Plan A sounds wonderful.

Overall, as I read our posts I felt similarities ..the love for our real H’s remain, the sadness for the fractured and hurtful relationship between our children and their fathers, continued consideration for our relationships as distant as it may feel,  all of it enveloped in an overwhelming love and strength we have for ourselves as our lives continue. I think the calmness washes in over time as we have the distance from our H’s and their drama as well as our own personal growth becoming rooted more deeply within us.

Pretty amazing people!
Title: Re: Old Timers thread 4
Post by: xyzcf on January 07, 2019, 07:13:14 AM
Believer:

Quote
Overall, as I read our posts I felt similarities ..the love for our real H’s remain, the sadness for the fractured and hurtful relationship between our children and their fathers, continued consideration for our relationships as distant as it may feel,  all of it enveloped in an overwhelming love and strength we have for ourselves as our lives continue. I think the calmness washes in over time as we have the distance from our H’s and their drama as well as our own personal growth becoming rooted more deeply within us.

Beautifully written and true for many of us.

It doesn't matter how many years pass, some of us continue to feel love for our spouses and great despair for the brokeness of our families.

I am thankful for you who have written about this, it helps a great deal to share our common thoughts and feelings as we continue on our journeys.

I honor all of you who have passed this way, peace to you all.
Title: Re: Old Timers thread 4
Post by: LearningIamOk on January 07, 2019, 10:31:36 AM
In It, I didn't know you were in a relationship! I am very happy for you. :) I hope it continues to be a source of happiness for you.

HT, I am happy for you as well, as your relationship continues to evolve. You seem to be in the same mindset as I am. My guy and I maintain separate homes. Some days we don't even talk or text, but we are both fine with that. My xH has made it clear thru my D35 that he intends to drag me back to court in a couple of years when he is 66 to ask for a modification of my alimony. I can't live on much less.

If that happens, my guy and I might have to combine households. We have discussed the possiblity. However, I fear moving in with someone. I fear he could go full throttle MLC. I don't want to be dependent on anyone ever again, but I might have to.

We will have been together for 6 years this February. It's been wonderful. He is everything xH was not.
Title: Re: Old Timers thread 4
Post by: in it on January 07, 2019, 02:49:29 PM
Hi Learning Yes I am.  I took four years off  from any romantic male relationship and do my own mirror work and I'm pretty sure I am not going to make the same mistakes again.

We are currently living together and have been for a little more than a year. A new relationship is not without it's challenges . It's sometime the baggage you ended up with from the last one that might prove to be a problem to deal with..communication is key.

If neither one of us want to go into what exactly might be the problem we just say "baggage"..we both have our own to deal with and get passed.
I simply would not believe that last nightmare of a relationship was the last one I ever have with a man. And I use the term "man" loosely in the exs case.
There are still men who will respect you and treat you much better than these mlcers..even if you feel there was some kind of wonderful marriage you had The end result with the infidelity that alone imho would mean that's enough to reevaluate the entire relationship.

In my case (as with a few others here) that wasn't the only demon we were dealing with. Violence is a deal breaker period. So I'm moving on and intend to keep doing so.  I deserved much better.

There are still good kind men out there. :)
Title: Re: Old Timers thread 4
Post by: HeartTattoo on January 07, 2019, 02:56:48 PM
My xH has made it clear thru my D35 that he intends to drag me back to court in a couple of years when he is 66 to ask for a modification of my alimony. I can't live on much less.
Learning,
H was 62 & I was a couple of months away when the D was in progress. H's lawyer first brought up in negotiations the notion of me taking SS at 62. When his L questioned me at the hearing about what my benefit would be I answered that I wouldn't take SS at 62 because it would permanently lower my benefit. The judge interjected that if that's the only income I had he guessed I would take it! What the h#ll did he think I was doing in court after 40 years of M? Planning to live on a SS benefit of $1000/month?!! He was such an a$$ to me that my L was in a panic & we ended up negotiating again to avoid the judge's ruling. But that's why I only have 4 years of alimony; retirement age was looming for H. I understand the logic of that, but my point & my financial adviser's point was that I should have gotten a much higher percentage of H's salary for those 4 years.

I was very lucky to have gotten a job again in nursing after 15 years away. I've made a decent income for 3 years & been able to save more for retirement. But it is very physically demanding & I only plan on one more year. We made choices in our lives & our careers based on marital decisions & what was best for our families at the time. Our H's had well-paying, demanding careers & we were willing to cut back in our career goals & invest more in parenting, because we never could have envisioned what happened to our M's. No-fault D & false assumptions about M/F equality in work & salaries mean most women get screwed in D's.
Title: Re: Old Timers thread 4
Post by: in it on January 07, 2019, 03:09:30 PM
Yep right there with you I got screwed too.
 SAHM for years with part time retail then that happens.

And I hear you Learning, it is terrifying after what happened to be dependent on a man again. My SO takes care of a lot of things financially since we live in his house. I contribute but sometimes feel that isn't enough.

We have talked about the possibly of one of us having an MLC and the whole thing blowing up..all you can do is keep talking have HONEST conversations. It's ok to be afraid after what we've been through.
Title: Re: Old Timers thread 4
Post by: Anjae on January 07, 2019, 04:49:55 PM
Hi Trust and HT.

For now, I am very happy being able to write about music and the arts again. As well as doing photography.

Like I said, I would not mind a new relationship. It would have to be a very special one. I like HT relationship, each in their house. That suits me. Can't see myself having to share a bedroom with someone on a daily basis. A house? Maybe, if I have my own bedroom/space. Still, one never knows.

These long time MLCers really still are where the buses don't run.  :)

Trust, interesting the idea of living the consequences of crisis during crisis. Somehow I don't think that is what is going on with Mr J. But, who knows what is going on with him.

Mr J crisis started either late Spring or early Summer 2005 when his peternal grandmother died. At first he seemed normal. Even when he started DJ I didn't saw anything wrong with it. I even incentivate him. He likes music, he was a bit down. Maybe djing his favourite music (his real self favourite music) in a nice, classy bar or two would help.

Of course it didn't and what was going to be an ocassional thing become a lunacy. Then come 2006. Early 2006 Mr J and I had decided to adjust our life to have kids, etc. I still have those e-mails. He wasn't happy with the djing and wanted a calmer life. I agree.

Come March, or April 2006 and he was saying he was depressed and the strange things begin. Like wanting to go to Cleveland or Pittsburgh sorting some guy's gigantic records warehouse for a year. I asked what about me, us, our life plans. Reply, he couldn't care less about me.

It was quite odd, but since he had said he was depressed, I thought it was the depression talking. It was. Just another type of depression I was not familiar with. Some normal time followed. May 2006 we asked for a small bank loan for a new flat or refurbishing ours further. Most likely the first.  Never happened.

Mr J become involved with OW1, the crisis monster and confusion showed more and more. Summer 2006 was bizarre. He was buying me lots of great vintage clothes - I still wear them, shoes, etc. At the same time, he was erratic, not sure about us, then totally sure about us and wanting again a calmer life and kids.

Come October 2006, he left. And has been gone since. In the meanwhile he managed to be all sorts of nasty. The most surprising thing for me is that it hasn't been any real nasty thing since October 2014. Four years and a few months without crazy nasty Mr J. Amazing.

Other than that, very little changes. MLC life still going on. OW2 really seems gone.
Title: Re: Old Timers thread 4
Post by: in it on January 07, 2019, 04:58:22 PM
I would have liked the separate house thing to like you learning..trouble was my SO was 1100 miles away so getting together for a date night would have been a little unrealistic. So since my job transferred it was really the only way we could find out if we would be good for each other.

He still sometimes will ask me to go on a date and I tell him:

 A DATE?! Now you are scaring me, you are getting WAAAY to serious. ;D ;D ;D
Title: Re: Old Timers thread 4
Post by: Anjae on January 07, 2019, 05:05:54 PM
Your SO was 1110 miles away In It...  :o Everytime I read those distances you guys have I go  :) ??? :o That is almost 2000km which means France or something of the sort, that is, several countries away.

It is always fascinating for me how people from big countries move such distances for a SO/marriage/work. For us, to move 50km or 100km is a lot. When Mr J and I moved to the capital,  320km from here, it was far away.

Perspective, perspective.  ;D
Title: Re: Old Timers thread 4
Post by: in it on January 07, 2019, 05:27:06 PM
Yep and the first thought that entered my mind as we continued to communicate and get to know each other by email phone and text was.
Bullsh!t I ain't moving to  his state.. ;D ;D ;D

After he flew up and we spent a week together when I dropped him back off at the airport I started to cry and he said " You know what has to happen don't you"

I had a few things I had to get done at my house so two months later:

I put my cat and threw some clothes in the car and left. Took me three days to get here.

I didn't really think about how much more it may be good for me as  the ex was living a 5 minute drive up the street..it helped a great deal with feeling more free.. I feel free here to take a walk or go to the store without having to rush not wanting to chance a meeting. Scanning parking lots for either his or his mothers car before I went in.

I do struggle sometimes, it's been against my fight or flight. I always stood my ground and fought..so leaving a place I was raised in due to the ex living there feeling very strange  to me. Kind of made me mad. But to be honest there was nothing for me there. I was there four years heard nothing from my kids so..I left.
Title: Re: Old Timers thread 4
Post by: Anjae on January 07, 2019, 05:47:27 PM
You're right, there you don't need to worry with any chance encounter. You and the kids can contacy by Social Media, e-mail, etc. If they change their mind towards you and want to visit or you to visit them, that certainly can be arranged.

Three days to get there ... depending of how many driving hours per day, think that would leave me in Germany, Belgium, Holland or further. The US are really big.  :) Moscow, is Russia, is some 3700km by air and some 4400km by road from here. And Moscow is very, very far away.  :)

Here I don't have to worry bumping into Mr J. I did see him by change January 2018 here, but I was with friends and it was a social event. He hardly ever comes here.

If I go to the capital, providing I don't show at his work or dj sets, most likely we will not meet. I have been there and didn't saw him, even if I was just round the corner from where he works - it is  a central area with lots of cafés I like. Sure, we could meet at some concert, but that is a social ocassion. It would be "hi", "hi".
Title: Re: Old Timers thread 4
Post by: LearningIamOk on January 07, 2019, 05:56:57 PM

There are still men who will respect you and treat you much better than these mlcers..even if you feel there was some kind of wonderful marriage you had The end result with the infidelity that alone imho would mean that's enough to reevaluate the entire relationship.

There are still good kind men out there. :)

In It, that was really brave of you to move so far away. I agree with you, there are good and decent men out there. They are hard to find if you don't do the work on yourself. Broken attracts broken. I did do the work on myself, lots of painful work, looking at my issues. I didn't do it to find a man, just to make me a better person.

When I did start dating, I dated some really broken people. They were one and done dates. I was not hanging around to see if they would change. The one thing I loved about my guy is he made me feel safe. He let me be me and I could cry if I needed to about how things ended up this way. One of the nicest things he has said to me is "I love you even when you don't love yourself".

HT, I am so sorry that you got such short shrift. I don't understand the judges who behave like that. I was lucky enough to file before they did away with lifetime alimony. xH will be paying for the rest of his life, which better be a long one.

Sadly, I didn't have any kind of a career. I will always be in a low wage job. I have to hand it to you going back to a grueling career of nursing. I am sure it is rewarding in lots of ways, but the schedule....UGH! My hat is off to you.

I did work for xH for a lot of years. He pats himself on the back that I got my quarters in so I would qualify for SS. I had to beg him for my paycheck each pay period. He seriously believes that he built his business single handedly. No xH, I worked at it too, and schmoozed the clients, etc.

Anjae, I am so happy that you are writing about the arts and music. I would love to take up photography. I still have my art class, but gave up horseback riding. I really wasn't very good at it and it's expensive.

I hope you do find someone who will appreciate your intellect and abilities. Maybe you should put some feelers out. As In It said, there are good and decent people out there. And, as I said to What Next, there are a million people looking for what you can offer.
Title: Re: Old Timers thread 4
Post by: Anjae on January 07, 2019, 06:20:06 PM
Learning, photography is easy to take on. I only have small compact cameras (one mine and ten, going on eleven years old, and one that was my younger sister's) and a sim cardless smartphone that was from cousin who had MLC. For years I only had my compact camera. It is more what we see/capture than the equipment.

I start writing about music and the arts in my late teens and did it until a little after I come back home. Then, years of the most crazy of Mr J's MLC and looking after grandmother didn't leave headspace for it. I slowly re-start and now it is going fine. There is even one more person on the project. A third one come along late 2018 and now we are four.

There are good people out there for sure. I have no doubt. However, in the world I move in, arts & culture, people know who I am. I am the owner of a project that features those people work. Men respect me and see me as a peer, but both them and I are careful because a relationship may jeopardize professional relationships and friedships. 

That was happened when Mr J left. The project, that used to be joint and much different, broke. My 20 years work and creative partner was no more and everything was in shambles.

Of course I do not think it will happen again, but there is a certain caution. However, I am certain I will meet the right person when the time is right. :)
Title: Re: Old Timers thread 4
Post by: in it on January 07, 2019, 06:34:14 PM
Thanks Learning it has been an adjustment because I never really lived anyplace else besides that little village. or within 1/2 hour of it so I got WAY out of my comfort zone.  I was pretty afraid of driving all that way by myself..but I did it..6 hours everyday then  I would sleep..

I didn't date . There may have been some guys interested? But I was sooo angry they probably picked up on that vibe and I scared them away.. ;D ;D

Just as well I am, quite content with the man I am with now. I can respect him and I feel safe with him.

Yeah doesn't that just piss you off? Oh yes they did everything on their own, had no help, single handedly  accomplished EVERYTHING they ever did. God forbid they admit their wife of how many years might have had something to do with the success.. Have to beg him for a paycheck >:( he needed a foot firmly planted in his nuts..what a 'effin jerk.

They are Superman.. ::)

Reminds me of the Honeymooners I don't know who might remember the TV show. Ralph and Alice would get in a fight and he'd be yelling and screaming " I'M the BOSS! Do you hear me Alice? I'M the BOSS And YOU are NOTHING!"

She'd stand there just as calm with her arms crossed and say

"Big deal..Boss over nothing"  ;D ;D ;D ;D

Yes you will meet the right person Anjae and it's gonna happen when you least expect it. I had almost adopted the phrase. A wise woman once said 'eff this sh!t and lived happily ever after.. My SO said he was just starting to enjoy being on his own then this happened.

I really think you have to love in such a way the person  you love feels free. That takes trust..respect for each other and the relationship.
Title: Re: Old Timers thread 4
Post by: LearningIamOk on January 09, 2019, 11:37:28 AM
Anjae, having our lives torn apart is bad enough, but you having your professional life disrupted is just abominable. You are one tough cookie to be able to put that back on track.

I need to learn to take better photos. I use photos to paint from. My paintings would definitely benefit from it.

In It, I always did feel like NOTHING in my M. I even told xH while we were separated that I never felt like I mattered. He seemed shocked. How in the world would I matter when we did everything the way he wanted to do it?

My current relationship is so different. I am asked for my opinion, and I usually say "whatever you want", which isn't fair to him. I am trying to be able to speak up for myself and my wishes. He truly wants to know what I think and how I feel. It's a learning curve that I need to be able to master.

Title: Re: Old Timers thread 4
Post by: in it on January 09, 2019, 12:15:55 PM
Well I did to Learning..I didn't feel like I mattered either.
In fact if I really wanted make sure I didn't get what I asked for or something I needed to have done was ask for it. So it taught me not to ask for anything because if I did? I could be pretty damn sure I wouldn't get it.

That gave the ex power. He got a sick kick out of me needing something and he could simply not do it. Which would make me unhappy. THEN he was happy.
 A long time ago I may have expressed wants and needs and after the years went by they got ignored by him more and more. Then it turned into I'd only ask when it was something I could not physically do myself. I'd put myself out there and ask and he intentionally would not do it and I would not nag him. So resentment on my part grew.

As far as being asked for an opinion? Out of the question. If I did say something he's say "Who put that thought into your head" Like I was not able to think for myself.

Yes I struggle with that too in this relationship with something as simple my SO asks what TV show would I like to watch. Again not used to someone asking me what I'd like to watch.
Sometimes I have definite thoughts about what I want. He might ask where I'd like to go to eat., or I have gotten a bit braver expressing what I want  "I want to go to Burger King." (I like Burger King a lot. :) )
I asked for some cookies because he was going into the kitchen last night,(Never would have done that in my old life)

 It is a learning curve and practice is what's needed..I think that's the difference between a real relationship (two people who really want each others happiness) and whatever you want to call whatever that was I had because it sure wasn't a marriage.

It's not an easy thing to do when you feel you haven't been considered or heard in years.

You have  good man there Learning if he honestly wants to know what you think and how you feel.
Title: Re: Old Timers thread 4
Post by: LearningIamOk on January 09, 2019, 12:38:20 PM
I was like you, In It. I would do everything that needed doing on my own. I never dared to ask xH for anything. If it was physical labor that was difficult, I was stuck waiting on him. I also never nagged. I just went on without having something done.

After we separated, I took down a small tree with a chainsaw. xH wanted to know who took the tree down. I said, "I did". He couldn't believe it and I was so proud of myself. It helped me to realize I didn't need him for much. I've figured lots of stuff out on my own, and if I couldn't do it, I found someone who could. I also found resentment building up.

And, despite some on here who truly mourn the loss of a wonderful M and relationship, I am not one of them. I regret not being able to keep my family intact, but I don't regret no longer having to walk on eggshells for fear of ticking off xH.
Title: Re: Old Timers thread 4
Post by: Anjae on January 09, 2019, 12:42:01 PM

Learning, private and professional life were the same, aside from Mr J's pre-MLC steady job and my freelance work. It has not been easy putting the project together, and is it going slowly, but I am getting there and will get there. To bring it back to what it was, or close, I cannot do it alone.

LBS who had a business with the MLCer often have their professional life turned up side down

Painting from photos is great. Trial and error, as with everything, is what works for photos. Also, it depends what a person wants/is after. For me, technical perfection is not what I aim to. If concerts photos, the important is to capture the feeling/mood. If buildings, that there is some emotions, not just a sterile perfect photo, if detais, often mine are romantica and pretty. There are certain colours in buildings/the city that attrack me and I like to capture those.

I am sorry you and In It always felt like nothing in your marriage. When I read LBS writing things like that, or similar, it is quite confusing for me. Mr J and I were a true partnership and we both matter equally. In a way, it was easy for us because we shared the same interests and we created things together.

If your current partner wants your opinion, give it to him. I understand you are not used and it is a learning curve, but he is asking.
Title: Re: Old Timers thread 4
Post by: LearningIamOk on January 09, 2019, 01:06:53 PM
Quote
I am sorry you and In It always felt like nothing in your marriage. When I read LBS writing things like that, or similar, it is quite confusing for me. Mr J and I were a true partnership and we both matter equally.

Anjae I am glad that you felt a true partnership in your M. That is why I understand why people grieve so hard for the M that is now in ruins. I never had that. I always felt like I was 5 year old and he was the adult.

Being with my boyfriend, he treats me the way I assume others were treated in their M's. It would be a lot to lose. The kindnesses, thoughtful gifts, just sitting together closely. *sigh* I wasn't even allowed to put my arm around xH in bed because I might wake him up and he didn't like being disturbed.

I know what you mean about the colors and feelings exuded by your subject matter. I will see a particular photo, and this feeling just comes over me that I can paint that picture. Thankfully, I paint with oil paints so I can correct mistakes over and over again.

My art teacher will be 91 in a couple of weeks. He is brilliant and I have been lucky to paint in his classes for the last 20 years. I dread the day he calls it quits.
Title: Re: Old Timers thread 4
Post by: in it on January 09, 2019, 01:11:09 PM
Yep
All  it taught me was how to get things done without him.
So after a while who needs them?
Good for you cutting down a tree with a chainsaw. ;D

And I really wasn't afraid of pissing him off...he and I argued quite a bit...later in the marriage pissing him  off would happen if I was breathing or merely my footsteps on the floor upstairs when he was downstairs.

We gotta count our blessings Learning, that we are out of those unsatifying unhappy relationships.
Title: Re: Old Timers thread 4
Post by: Anjae on January 09, 2019, 02:45:10 PM

Never felt like I was 5 years old and Mr J the adult. If anything, he was a little more childhish than I was. At a point, in my teens, some not so good things happened with my parents that affected me and my siblings. Fortunately, Mr J didn't had such experience. We were pretty much on the same level.

I wasn't even allowed to put my arm around xH in bed because I might wake him up and he didn't like being disturbed.

What? I don't know what to say. We were so playful with each other and often would sleep either curled up on each other or touching each other. Until very recently I still sleep with my arm streached as it Mr J was on the other side of the bed.

The kindnesses, thoughtful gifts, just sitting together closely.

This was Mr J and I.

To me, the situation is, I had a great man/good marriage, it is not so easy to find one at the same level or better. It is not a case of lack of good people, more of what I was used to. Of course Mr J's crisis version has nothing to do with the real he and many man are far better than his crisis self. But I do not want a relationship/marriage with the crisis version. I want one as good, or better, than the non crisis version.

I paint with watercolours or acrylic - diluted it turns into a wonderful way of using watercolours. With its natural texture it allows for things watercolours do not. One day I would like to try oil, but a flat without a proper studio and oil don't got together. I've seen some new oils that don't seem to have the smell oil usually has, still, it requires lots of things that are not necessary for watercolours/acrylic.

Colours do appeal to me, yet, often, I like to take black & white photos, mostly concerts ones. Colour photos in very dark rooms, unless with a great lens and camera that I do not have, don't tend to turn that good. Black & white looks better. Would I like to have a better/bigger camera with a good zoom? I would. But it would bring other problems. It weights, it requires a special bag, they are often too big for my hands. A big/bigger camera is very visible and I often go alone to concerts or less nice parts of town. I feel totally safe and comfortable with my tiny cameras and counsin's old smartphone, but I am not sure I would with a bigger, expensive camera.

How wonderful to have a 91 years old art teacher and to be having going to his class for 20 years. I never had art or photography classes. Some family members are artists - from Fine Arts to Theatre, or were Fine Arts School teachers, but I studied History of Art.

Which means I am not really good at drawing and don't know how to do a lot of formal things. But that is not what I am looking for. The watercolours started when I was looking after grandmother. I could barely leave the house and I needed something that was relaxing, not done on a computer and was silent. Haven't painted in a little while. Need to pick the brushes againg.

The thing is, In It, I didn't had an unhappy unsatifying relationship with the real Mr J. And the same is true of several others here regarding their spouse/marriage.

The crisis version is another matter.
Title: Re: Old Timers thread 4
Post by: in it on January 09, 2019, 03:04:09 PM
Anjae I don't know what that's like.."this was a him against me" and I missed the memo..or didn't get it. I just thought I was in a difficult relationship..this whatever this was may have been a crisis? His whole life was a crisis and I was the fixer the put out the fires. The dealing with the next drama. Very rarely any peace. Put up with the verbal abuse , the put downs, sometimes I fought back.. then things would escalate..just draining and exhausting.
He and I did laugh quite a bit, but towards the end he found NOTHING funny. I mean zero sense of humor.

 Some affection in the last relationship but nothing note worthy. In this new one we snuggle every chance we get,hold hands, always a kiss goodbye and I love you. Again something new.

I've been freestyle acrylic hand-painting on flour sack dish towels..they came out pretty cute. Nothing I had tried before. Gave them as gifts this year for Christmas.
Your painting sounds interesting....
Title: Re: Old Timers thread 4
Post by: Anjae on January 09, 2019, 03:31:45 PM
I'm sorry, In It.

For me, the abuse and agression only come with Mr J's MLC. It was very shocking. He changed so much from who he was.

In this new one we snuggle every chance we get,hold hands, always a kiss goodbye and I love you. Again something new.

This is wonderful.  :) I'm very happy for you.

Your freestyle painting also sounds very interesting. It seems painting/the arts are something several of us enjoy. It could be said my paiting are freestyle and abstract.

I used to do collages, but haven't done any since I come back. I also write poetry, but it has been a little while since the last poem.

LBS are very gifted people. It is a pity that either before MLC, for those who didn't had such good spouses/marriages, and since MLC for others, the people we marry do no appreciate us and how special we are. But several of us found someone who did. Which is great and wonderful.
Title: Re: Old Timers thread 4
Post by: in it on January 09, 2019, 03:54:41 PM
Thanks Anjae it's ok now I made peace with it. Forgiven myself for not being perfect ( another memo I missed).

It must have been a total shock if he was the kind of man you say he was and have him get that crazy and violent.

The ex was creative too..I don't know, it was a really bad relationship for me overall. Any positives could not outweigh the negatives.

Someone asked me once if I was married because they never saw me with anyone..
I kinda thought he and I were good parents, just sucked as husband and wife.
This whole mess was a humbling experience for me. I still wish I hadn't gone back..it just did way more damage to me. Delayed my healing.

It does come down to being appreciated and respected for who we are now and us grateful for very small things.
Title: Re: Old Timers thread 4
Post by: Anjae on January 09, 2019, 04:29:14 PM
You're welcome, In It. I am glad to know you have forgived yourself for not being perfect. No one is.

Yes, the real Mr J was like I say he is. Of course he was not perfect, no one is.

It was a terrible shock. Nothing made sense. He become manic, violent, crazy. I had no idea who that man was. Still don't.

We were often together. Everyone new we were a couple. 

Being good parents and being a good husband and wife is different.
 
It does come down to being appreciated and respected for who we are now and us grateful for very small things.

Indeed it does.
Title: Re: Old Timers thread 4
Post by: readytofixmyselffirst on January 09, 2019, 05:10:57 PM
Hello,

There is a major difference. Just got off the phone with the new Mrs. Ready. She locked her keys in the trunk by mistake. I am at work 60 miles away. I asked her if she needed an uber ride home or should I contact road side assistance.

She stated she would wait a few minutes to hear from the kids, but was grateful for my help.

My ex would have lost her mind. She would have expected me to come immediately from work to save her and nothing else would remedy the situation. In fact all my other solutions would be proof that I didn't love her and she was not my number one priority.

My new wife calls and her son is on the way.

Peace, problem solved.

I really love my life now!

((((Hugs)))

Ready
Title: Re: Old Timers thread 4
Post by: in it on January 09, 2019, 05:30:23 PM
Hi Ready maybe she just felt more loved with acts of service?..not defending her just saying.

Problem is some people you cannot do enough for they do not appreciate it. They just expect more and more until you have to say enough..You've done enough, put up with enough. The line in the sand has been crossed way too many times. Then all of a sudden you are the problem. You are the mean one.

I locked my keys in the car at work one time a ways before BD. Went to the phone to tell the ex..(he's a 5 minute drive away) I had the thought "I don't know why I'm calling him he will be no help".

He answered the phone I told him what happened.his exact words were:

"What do you want me to do about it?"

I hung up on him.

Not a problem now. I have a car that does not have automatic locks. :)

Glad you have a new wife and a new life that's better for you then your last relationship.
Title: Re: Old Timers thread 4
Post by: Anjae on January 09, 2019, 05:46:17 PM
If I drove and locked the keys in the trunk and had a phone with me I would call a taxi, Uber or contact road side assistance myself.

I would never call Mr J to come solve the issue and would never expect him to leave work to do so. The reason is not because Mr J would not help/would not offer help, but because I know who I should call.

Once, after BD, I went out to go to the hairdresser. I realized I  had left my keys home (of course Mr J wouldn't be there to open the door).

I still went to the hairdresser and when I come back and I to the fireighters quarter, right by the flat and told them my keys were inside. They took care of the matter.

I am not the sort of woman who tells the husband a plumber, etc. needs to be called. If one needs to be called, I call one. 
Title: Re: Old Timers thread 4
Post by: in it on January 09, 2019, 06:06:27 PM
He was home that's the thing I'm wasn't taking him away from anything like work.
Again Anjae I'm mostly someone who can solve their own problems.
I called a locksmith someone told me about. She had the door open in minutes
Title: Re: Old Timers thread 4
Post by: LearningIamOk on January 10, 2019, 04:51:47 PM
Anjae, the real Mr. J. sounds like an amazing person. It's almost like losing someone to addiction. They become totally different people, but you know the real one is some where inside.

I am glad that you got to experience such a wonderful relationship. You certainly know what you want if you decide to let someone else into your life. l think that most of us are self sufficient. We are survivors and problem solvers.

My car wouldn't start one night coming back by train from New York City after seeing a play with my girlfriend. I called xH (he was my H at the time) to come help us. It was 1am and it was freezing outside. He was so angry that I woke him up. I told him nevermind. My girlfriend called roadside assistance that she had. We had a tow truck on the way by the time he called me back to say he would come out.

In It, you really did deal with a lot of crazy also. It is amazing that any of us want to venture into another relationship. I hope that all the heart ache you went thru to get to this point has shown you that you are a good and valuable person.

Ready, your xW really put you thru the ringer too. I am delighted that your new wife seems grounded and sensible about things. Some people are just black holes of neediness. The new Mrs. Ready seems confident and capable.
Title: Re: Old Timers thread 4
Post by: Anjae on January 10, 2019, 05:18:23 PM

Learning, the real Mr J was wonderful. It is like losing someone to addiction, except with addiction everyone knows something is wrong with the person, with MLC, often, the MLCer looks normal to everyone but the LBS. I don't know if the real Mr J is still inside the MLC version. Who knows, maybe.

Yes, I know what I want in a relationship. We're self suficient and problems solvers indeed. I confess at times I get a little tired of it, but it is fine. And I have learned to ask my brother and cousin who had MLC to do some things for me.

If I called real Mr J because of something like what happened to your car he would come and help. Or call someone to help in case he couldn't come.

Your husband become so angry because you woke him up? Who gets angry when a spouse calls in the middle of the night because there is a problem?
Title: Re: Old Timers thread 4
Post by: LearningIamOk on January 10, 2019, 05:28:14 PM
Your husband become so angry because you woke him up? Who gets angry when a spouse calls in the middle of the night because there is a problem?


Yup, he was one angry hombre. I don't know how I didn't leave him. Of course, I had 4 young kids at the time and no career.

When I remember that night, and other things, I know I would never take him back.
Title: Re: Old Timers thread 4
Post by: Anjae on January 10, 2019, 05:50:06 PM
No one needs an angry hombre. It is fine to be angry at times, we all get angry. Someone who is always angry, man or woman? Nope.

When there are young kids things are much more complicated than when there are no children or the children are grown up.

You have your wonderful new relationship.  :)
Title: Re: Old Timers thread 4
Post by: in it on January 10, 2019, 06:10:41 PM
Thank you learning
Someone asked me if he drinks..I said no he's just naturally nuts.
I believe if we choose to not move on not take a chance on a new relationship, not love again...these souless bastards win. These types of men are the devil personified.I had some idea of just how evil he was..I just really didn't understand what I was dealing with..way to naive, way too trusting, with way too much compassion.

He would sometimes say

If you were sweeter we could be happier.
I'd reply if I were sweeter I wouldn't survive this.

I had no idea after BD then D then after I went back only after the DV incident it was all about control for him.
I think I've told this story before.

I had enough self help books I read..my collection would have rilved Barnes and Noble..of course because there was always something wrong with me as far as he was concerned. ( There was.. it was him)

I happened upon a book titled A$$holes-a theroy.I read the whole book and when I was done with it he was laying on the bed
I got up, tossed it on the bed and said:

That's the best 'effing self help book I ever read.
And walked out of the room

I refused to believe this was the last relationship would be the last one I would ever have.

Title: Re: Old Timers thread 4
Post by: LearningIamOk on January 10, 2019, 07:08:41 PM
Quote
of course because there was always something wrong with me as far as he was concerned. ( There was.. it was him)

OMG! In It, that is hysterical!!! I had the same problem. Thanks for sorting that out for me after all these years. ;D

Anjae, I do have a wonderful relationship. I don't know what I did to deserve him, but I hope I did it twice.

Title: Re: Old Timers thread 4
Post by: in it on January 10, 2019, 07:15:37 PM
Hey learning you got admit,  if you honestly think he was the best you could do? You had to be a little off too!  ;D
We deserve much better.
Title: Re: Old Timers thread 4
Post by: LearningIamOk on January 12, 2019, 06:12:28 AM
I did think he was a good person, but as I healed and continued to grow, I realized he was not the prize I thought he was. I would never accept the crumbs he would throw my way now. I needed the push that his infidelity gave me. Painful as it was, I am glad for it. So many wonderful things opened up for me because of it.
Title: Re: Old Timers thread 4
Post by: in it on January 12, 2019, 06:45:21 AM
Me too..trouble is it was character flaws he had I thought he'd mature out of and didn't.
I kept focusing on the good until one day I realized there was very little good there .
Too much giving him the benefit of the doubt with his lies. He crossed the abuse line for the last time this time.

 I got rid of the negative so something much more positive could enter the picture.

I'd never settle for anything remotely close to that last relationship.

Title: Re: Old Timers thread 4
Post by: onedayatatime on January 12, 2019, 09:51:24 AM
Following
Title: Re: Old Timers thread 4
Post by: Believer on January 13, 2019, 04:15:19 PM
I’ve been reflecting over the past few days about where my personal growth is at.

It’s interesting that when I recently learned that my exH is getting remarried. I had a complete meltdown. I’ve been on this “ MLC trip ” for so long one would think I’d been able to better handle the news. Nope, not at all.

I knew my reaction wasn’t healthy and certainly not at all as detached as it should be. So queue a reality check for me!
I’m following up with a therapist and once I began to strip away all the outer layers I realized that although I was working on me I was working harder to help exH. Even after all these years I was still trying to fix my MLCer, the process and the outcome.
Oh silly, silly, stubborn me !
My exH is a stubborn man (as am I at times) and I kinda thought his MLC may be a long one. He has always struggled to apologize, acknowledge an error, or share his feelings. We worked for the same employer and we both had to participate in emotional testing. H scored poorly on his testing - he scored  a 1/5 and I had 4/5. Hmm..guess who carried the emotional decisions in our marriage.

My exH has always known I was there for him and still does. I was the one to touch in with him, and often there was heartfelt emotion on my behalf. That spoke volumes of where I needed to grow. Sometimes he’d respond and other times not. He’s always said he can’t imagine us not ever talking. So perhaps my ready availability has allowed him to push the envelope on his MLC and kept him in the “nowhere lands” who knows.
It was interesting that on Christmas Eve he responded to a touch in message I had sent a few days prior.

His response was odd for him... he said “he had failed me in so many ways as well as others. If he’d learned anything it’s to accept people as they are and that includes himself. He said losing yourself over these past 9 years was my primary responsibility because I failed you.”

Hmm, interesting words, albeit there is some truth to them. Although, actually losing myself was my responsibility not his. I didn’t respond right away actually waited until  well after Christmas. My response was simple. “Yes, you did fail me. Yes, you did fail others. However, you also failed yourself - please don’t under value yourself. ExH, I continue to believe in you. Take care. “
In the end I think I see a little realization on his behalf, although no apology or indication to fix the damage. I’m not sure he has the courage to, so for now he’ll take the path of least resistance and marry the OW. I feel he’s still well within his MLC.
Perhaps I’m over analyzing I don’t know. For now, I need flip the mirror back on me - that I do know.

The gems we discover for ourselves on this crazy ride!
Title: Re: Old Timers thread 4
Post by: readytofixmyselffirst on January 13, 2019, 06:11:23 PM
I realized that although I was working on me I was working harder to help exH. Even after all these years I was still trying to fix my MLCer, the process and the outcome.
Oh silly, silly, stubborn me !

The gems we discover for ourselves on this crazy ride!

Wow, this really struck as a truth bomb for me as well. I look back and realize as much as I tried to detach, I wasn't perfect. I was trying to fix my MLCer. I really wanted to "win" and be a success story. I thought I would fix myself and ex Ms. Ready at the same time. Oops.

I lost my stand out of sheer emotional and physical exhaustion. Burnt out completely. I remember when I stopped posting. I just wanted to rest. To focus on the divorce and figure out how to survive.

Looking back, I was trying to push my ex. Trying to rush her through the tunnel. Not realizing her sisiter's terminal disease was pulling her back, holding her, while I tried to shove.

Your words are strong and I really took them to heart.

((((Ready))))
Title: Re: Old Timers thread 4
Post by: Believer on January 13, 2019, 06:34:14 PM
Ready,

Thanks for sharing

I completely hear you about the pushing/rushing and desire to be a success story!.

Yes, yes yes about thinking we could fix both at the same time !!  :o

A humbling personal step for me. I’m grateful that I now realize it.


Title: Re: Old Timers thread 4
Post by: osb on January 13, 2019, 06:56:40 PM
Listening to perspectives on success stories, and on wishing to be one... Is reconciling with one's spouse considered a 'success story'? I'm not sure - and i am happy with my H (not the same as before MLC, naturally; but a different happy). It's certainly not the only success story, as so many of you make clear.

To many of my friends and family, a 'success story' for me would have included me snapping my fingers, triumphantly sauntering away from my H and finding a bright-and-shiny someone else ("you can find someone better looking and nicer", is the way my sister put it - as though I should be shopping for nicer produce and pinching the vegetables). They were heartily disappointed that my H and I reconciled ("I guess you just wanted a marriage", my cousin said, her lip slightly curled).

I guess what constitutes a success in our own eyes often reflects what our loved ones wish for us - to get back the person we lost, to make everything better, to prove that we can triumph. And i did fantasize about finding someone who loved me even better, before deciding that the broken-and-reglued love was what I actually wanted. Arguably, the real triumph lies in figuring out what makes us whole, regardless of who else is in our lives (I trust I'd feel this calm, whether alone or reconciled). I still can't get my family to quite see that - that I'm whole now, that I'm strong, that I have learned to bend so I won't ever break again. Oddly enough, my H sees it, and seems to admire that strength; perhaps that's why we're back together now. 
Title: Re: Old Timers thread 4
Post by: Anjae on January 13, 2019, 07:08:10 PM
Is reconciling with one's spouse considered a 'success story'?

Around here, yes. But, like you said, it is not the only type of success story.

If you had found someone else, or decided to be on your own, it would also be a success story.

I can understand why relatives feel disappointed LBS and MLCer reconcile. Can't say I would be please if a relative reconciled with a MLCer. That is, the type of MCLer most of us deal with. My wallower counsin, and similar wallowers is different. They don't go anywhere, no OW/OM, just obvious depression.

Everyone was happy by cousin become well and he and his wife survived his depression (that is what he calls it).

I was more the "I can't help you" type when Mr J wanted me to help him while he was leading life with OW1. Helping him in what? Doing this? This what» He never said. I told him he had to solve his issues and to look for professional help.
Title: Re: Old Timers thread 4
Post by: Believer on January 13, 2019, 07:22:52 PM
OSB,

I enjoyed your perspective on what may constitute a success story.

Yes, so very true that the “real triumph is in figuring out what makes us feel whole again, regardless of who is in our lives.”

It’s nice that H sees your strength as well.
Title: Re: Old Timers thread 4
Post by: LearningIamOk on January 16, 2019, 01:26:23 PM
I also thought success was a reconciled M. Now, I know, that surviving and thriving despite the ride/journey we were/are on is true success. We need to be able to live our lives with joy and personal growth. If we don't, we will be stuck just like so many of the MLCers we read about here. 
Title: Re: Old Timers thread 4
Post by: in it on January 16, 2019, 06:21:32 PM
Well yes I have to agree it would have been a lot better if something a little less devastating could have lead to personal growth. But I have chosen to be grateful for the lesson. Even with the losses I've suffered.

At one time I used to think maybe the depth of despair you may suffer also will equal the amount of joy you will feel.

I have made a friend of someone who used to post here quite some time ago.Met her in person. She's full of life wonderful personality.Her ex married the ow and left the state they lived in.

I asked her why she stopped posting. And she said it wasn't helping her move on .
So in some instances us relating past stories etc. Might keep us stuck in that mode, maybe someone's story triggers us, causes anxiety, sometimes sadness, sometimes anger.We try to help each other..but no one will let go and let God until they have had enough.There's no telling anyone anything, I've found. Everyone has to decide for themselves.

People here tolerate disrespectful behavior from these MLCers right down the line to physical abuse and still cannot let go. They may cut contact but cannot seem to detach.

The goal is to heal, love yourself first. Know you deserve better.
You cannot heal, fix or change them.They are adults.

Sometimes it''s hard to heal when you keep relating and/ or
 reliving your own passed painful experiences.
Title: Re: Old Timers thread 4
Post by: LearningIamOk on January 18, 2019, 06:12:33 PM
Very true, In It. Listening to all the stories here can be overwhelming. I think it could cause some to be stuck. Especially if all you read about is the people who continue to Stand. This goes back to feeling like you have failed. The only time you fail is if you don't stay true to your core person.

So if your core self says Stand forever, you Stand forever. If your core self says you have had enough, then you move on. Each story is individual and each outcome is an individual's choice.
Title: Re: Old Timers thread 4
Post by: in it on January 18, 2019, 06:32:29 PM
Personally now I don't feel like I failed.
I did feel that way at BD and D.

This time I stood up for myself spoke out about the abuse and stayed true to myself and moved on.
Each of us has to have time to reflect back on that old relationship and ask ourselves.

 Was it really for the most part THAT good?

And if we really do honestly think it was then..can we still say the same thing now as we get lied to and cheated on and disrespected while some of us are still married?
Title: Re: Old Timers thread 4
Post by: Mitzpah on January 19, 2019, 02:55:27 AM
Very true, In It. Listening to all the stories here can be overwhelming. I think it could cause some to be stuck. Especially if all you read about is the people who continue to Stand. This goes back to feeling like you have failed. The only time you fail is if you don't stay true to your core person.

So if your core self says Stand forever, you Stand forever. If your core self says you have had enough, then you move on. Each story is individual and each outcome is an individual's choice.
Interesting discussion - it is true that if you are attached to the past, it is difficult to move on. Even as a stander, I find that dwellling on the past is counter productive - what is in the past is done with, it is over. Each day is a new day, full of opportunities to live better, love better and bless others.

There has been some discussion on other threads about the 'impossibility' of forgiveness. I can totally understand thinking like that and knowing that I am not God who cleans our slate, I know, though, that letting go of the past and looking forward helps to attain this state of forgiveness as it says here:
Quote
Quote
Philippians 3:12-16

“Not that I have already obtained this or am already perfect, but I press on to make it my own, because Christ Jesus has made me his own. Brothers, I do not consider that I have made it my own. But one thing I do: forgetting what lies be­hind and straining forward to what lies ahead, I press on toward the goal for the prize of the upward call of God in Christ Jesus. Let those of us who are mature think this way, and if in any­thing you think otherwise, God will re­veal that also to you. Only let us hold true to what we have attained.”
Bold emphasis mine


I found myself saying to a friend the other day  (a doctor in behavioral and evolutionary psychology), that I was very happy that my children had a close relationship with their dad, happy for them and happy for him - perhaps that was mission accomplished in this matter? On the other hand, I still have a future to take hold of and I press on :)

Title: Re: Old Timers thread 4
Post by: LearningIamOk on January 21, 2019, 04:50:52 PM
Mitz, pressing on is all we can do. Otherwise we are stuck in the past. I wish that my kids and their dad have a decent relationship. I told them early on not to cut him out, that it would leave a big hole in their hearts. It is their relationship to forge together. I am out of the mix.

I hope I can find forgiveness for my xH. I have no contact with him. There is no reason to. He has his OW and I have my boyfriend. I am happier, but less stable financially, but I still have it better than most.

I would never take my x back. I don't want to constantly be looking over my shoulder. I don't have it in me to mend what went wrong any longer. I looked at my part in the demise of the M and have repaired what needed fixing on my part. xH didn't have any respect for how hard I was working. He told me once, before the D that he saw how hard I was working, but he just wasn't happy, so I let him go.
Title: Re: Old Timers thread 4
Post by: in it on January 22, 2019, 03:30:00 AM
I wouldn't ever take the ex back either
I have much different reasons.
I am much happier with my life and new relationship now than I pretty much ever was with him.
Forgiveness yeah I can forgive him, doesn't mean I have to have anything to do with him.
I had to forgive myself first for accepting the way I was treated.
Financially it's been a struggle, but not having to deal with him has been a blessing.
I've fixed what was wrong with me..no way to fix what's wrong with him.I have neither the compassion or patience nor do I care to understand. I don't have it in me either learning.
Title: Re: Old Timers thread 4
Post by: OldPilot on January 22, 2019, 06:10:15 AM
I would never take my x back. I don't want to constantly be looking over my shoulder. I don't have it in me to mend what went wrong any longer. I looked at my part in the demise of the M and have repaired what needed fixing on my part. xH didn't have any respect for how hard I was working. He told me once, before the D that he saw how hard I was working, but he just wasn't happy, so I let him go.

I've fixed what was wrong with me..no way to fix what's wrong with him.I have neither the compassion or patience nor do I care to understand. I don't have it in me either learning.
Ditto

I have to say that - I think I do understand and maybe our exes are not in MLC but it is really up to them to change, not us.

I waited my whole life for my mother to change, did not happen, she passed away instead.

Somehow I feel the same thing can be said about our exes too.
Title: Re: Old Timers thread 4
Post by: HeartTattoo on January 22, 2019, 09:32:23 AM
I had a box, full of journals from "that" time..perhaps 14 in all...I had marked the box "private, do not read" and I have never gone back and read any of the journals. I did not want anyone to ever read them..especially our daughter.

I just spent an hour with my shredder. Ripping, shredding, emptying into one large garbage back and finally placing it all in the trash. It is a very positive thing for me to have done.

As I was updating some computer files today, I noticed my "journals" from "that" time. I journaled heavily, probably almost daily for over 2 years, plus all my writing on HS. I was so much in shock, so manic then. I would wake after two hours of sleep, jump out of bed, & a stream of thoughts & feelings would pour out. I could remember conversations with H nearly verbatim hours later & document them all. My obsessive mind would be going crazy as I drove & I would pull over & jot things in little notebooks. It's funny that I had never journaled before & really don't anymore.

This post from XYZ came to mind then today & I wondered. What have others done with journals from "that" time? I haven't yet wanted to destroy them. I feel I want to document what MLC is & how it affects others. Although HS does that in a global fashion.

Being interested in genealogy, I often wonder about the private lives of my ancestors & I want to leave some personal explanation for why our family was broken at this point. Something more interesting than the hard facts of HT & H married 1974--divorced 2015.

My children? They know most of it. I probably talked too much to them at the time. We were all in such shock & wondering what had gone wrong with H. They were adults at the time. But them reading it all over again years later? Do I want that?

What have others done? What are your thoughts?

Hugs All,
HT
Title: Re: Old Timers thread 4
Post by: forthetrees on January 22, 2019, 09:54:40 AM
My journalling came out in the form of songs. They form a chronology of the my journey. They blend pain, humor and creativity and I will not destroy them.

As for regular journals, they too are a blend of pain, humor and creativity. I say keep them but package them with a warning that they contain information that cannot be unknown and will likely be painful. But, those journals may save a future descendant from even further pain. Let me explain:

I found hundreds of pages of microfiched court testimony from my grandparents´divorce. Without that, I would not have understood the dysfunction that carried on down to the next generation. It explained many hurtful family behaviors- did not excuse, but explained. That knowledge, while painful, let me let go.

My two cents.
Title: Re: Old Timers thread 4
Post by: Mitzpah on January 22, 2019, 09:57:48 AM
HT,

I had a box, full of journals from "that" time..perhaps 14 in all...I had marked the box "private, do not read" and I have never gone back and read any of the journals. I did not want anyone to ever read them..especially our daughter.

I just spent an hour with my shredder. Ripping, shredding, emptying into one large garbage back and finally placing it all in the trash. It is a very positive thing for me to have done.

As I was updating some computer files today, I noticed my "journals" from "that" time. I journaled heavily, probably almost daily for over 2 years, plus all my writing on HS. I was so much in shock, so manic then. I would wake after two hours of sleep, jump out of bed, & a stream of thoughts & feelings would pour out. I could remember conversations with H nearly verbatim hours later & document them all. My obsessive mind would be going crazy as I drove & I would pull over & jot things in little notebooks. It's funny that I had never journaled before & really don't anymore.

This post from XYZ came to mind then today & I wondered. What have others done with journals from "that" time? I haven't yet wanted to destroy them. I feel I want to document what MLC is & how it affects others. Although HS does that in a global fashion.

Being interested in genealogy, I often wonder about the private lives of my ancestors & I want to leave some personal explanation for why our family was broken at this point. Something more interesting than the hard facts of HT & H married 1974--divorced 2015.

My children? They know most of it. I probably talked too much to them at the time. We were all in such shock & wondering what had gone wrong with H. They were adults at the time. But them reading it all over again years later? Do I want that?

What have others done? What are your thoughts?

Hugs All,
HT

I have wondered recently about this - my current feeling is that I want to get rid of all the physical, written evidence of the very broken person I was eight years ago... I don't even think that my rather incoherent, ramblings are of any value to anyone :( There are of course, letters (e-mails) that I wrote to people at the time in different parts of the world, and, the enormous amount of postings on here and a few on Rejoice Marriage Ministries. The electronic backlog is difficult to get rid of - the emails I sent, they are like the proverbial stones thrown... you don't get them back.

I find reading what I wrote on HS eight years ago painful enough, I can't imagine going through the notebook I filled in the year after BD.

I guess I shall destroy it along with other MLC related material when I get round to remodeling my bedroom ::)

Just how I feel about it but haven't acted on it yet :P
Title: Re: Old Timers thread 4
Post by: Treasur on January 22, 2019, 10:17:12 AM
I have my journals too. Like you, journaled like a mad woman in the early hours for probably a couple of years...
Haven't read them. Initially they would have been too painful to read; now they feel like old news bc that is where I was not where I am.
Don't know if I will or if I will just destroy them at some point. Guess I assume I'll know when I know.
Title: Re: Old Timers thread 4
Post by: Disillusioned on January 22, 2019, 10:39:20 AM
Use them to write a book, Treasur.  I think a lot of people would read it.
Title: Re: Old Timers thread 4
Post by: Treasur on January 22, 2019, 10:45:47 AM
Funny you should say that, Dis..... :)
Title: Re: Old Timers thread 4
Post by: Thunder on January 22, 2019, 10:55:51 AM
If I am honest with myself, I probably keep the journals so maybe one day if my H ever came back I would want him to read them and get some idea of how hurt I was.
They were painful pages to read.  He could see how badly he hurt me.

But not that long ago I tossed them all, after reading them.  I have no desire to have him or anyone else read them.

The woman who wrote those journals is not me anymore.  I felt very sorry for her.



Title: Re: Old Timers thread 4
Post by: Anjae on January 22, 2019, 11:47:54 AM
I got rid of my journals of the time long ago and now I always get rid of a journal once it is filled. Before MLC I kept my journals.

I have some poems from after BD, but people don't manage to know what they are about.
Title: Re: Old Timers thread 4
Post by: HeartTattoo on January 23, 2019, 07:38:00 AM
Thank you, everyone, for your replies.
I say keep them but package them with a warning that they contain information that cannot be unknown and will likely be painful. But, those journals may save a future descendant from even further pain. Let me explain:

I found hundreds of pages of microfiched court testimony from my grandparents´divorce. Without that, I would not have understood the dysfunction that carried on down to the next generation. It explained many hurtful family behaviors- did not excuse, but explained. That knowledge, while painful, let me let go.
Yes, I definitely think the past can help those in the future. I wish there was more personal documentation in families. It has to be read with compassion & context, knowing this is likely not the full story, but I feel my story is worth preserving for those purposes.

...my current feeling is that I want to get rid of all the physical, written evidence of the very broken person I was eight years ago...
Oh, Mitz, but look at the journey & what you have become! Such a strong woman. You deal with your MLCer & the interactions between your children & their father more than most of us. We were all completely broken. It's what this does to a loving partner.

If I am honest with myself, I probably keep the journals so maybe one day if my H ever came back I would want him to read them and get some idea of how hurt I was.
They were painful pages to read.  He could see how badly he hurt me.
But not that long ago I tossed them all, after reading them.  I have no desire to have him or anyone else read them.
The woman who wrote those journals is not me anymore.  I felt very sorry for her.
Yes, Thunder, that was one of my reasons as well. When I really did believe he would be coming back, I thought the journals could help in the counseling sessions we would have. As time goes on & I believe less & less in any sort of restored R, that is less of a reason to keep them. Even if that situation presented itself, so much time would have passed &, as you say, we have become different people.

I did read through what I had written, probably when the journaling was slowing down & I was strong enough not to be completely triggered by the memories. I was a very broken person for a long time after BD. So unlike my usual self it astounded me. But I am not ashamed of that. It humbled me, it made me more compassionate for what other broken people have suffered. That we never know what obstacles others are trying to overcome.

My journal files are arranged in kind of a weird way. My present plan is to (eventually) reorganize the files, read them, & print them out. I'll place them in a sealed package, with perhaps the "warning" label FTT suggests, placing them with my other "important papers". I kind of like the idea of a granddaughter or great-granddaughter, or great-great niece reading it as kind of a personal/historical document.

Hugs All,
HT
Title: Re: Old Timers thread 4
Post by: Believer on January 23, 2019, 09:28:26 AM
I had taken some time to look through my journals at the time my MLCer was filing for divorce. Once the divorce became final I discarded all the written material with the exception of spreadsheet indicating how much time he had spent with our daughter. I had six years of documentation - Year 3 was his best year. He’d spent 12 days (288 hrs! ) with his daughter and that was only because he took her on a cruise for his brothers wedding. I kept the documentation just incase he comes out of his tunnel and wonders why his relationship with his only child is fractured.
Btw his next top year was 27 hours, this included watching her play softball   ::)

Recently when I heard he was remarrying, I collected all my jewelry he’d given me over the years and packed it away in the safe. My daughter can have it if she ever feels like it.
Title: Re: Old Timers thread 4
Post by: Snowdrop on January 23, 2019, 06:30:09 PM
Hello All.

Had to sit today and quickly calculate how long since BD and H ran away.  In the realm of healing I think that is pretty good.  Not to say that rawness isn't just below the surface. 

Realized that I can maybe join this thread - does almost 7 years qualify?  Unbelievable and how fast the time really has flown by. 

H is still a Vanisher and rarely a word heard from him.  That's okay.  The odd time he would emerge and leave a voicemail on Father's Day :o, telling the kids he was calling as he was "sure they wanted to wish him a Happy Father's Day!!!"  To me that says it all and an indicator of his mental health and lack of well-being, who does that?  No communication otherwise or child support, but the odd random Father's Day message out of the blue seemed okay to him.

Probably still living far away with OW where nobody knows the real story (not even her) and believed his lies.  Now I'm sure nobody asks or even cares, not that they did in the first place.  He is a likable guy and probably laid his sad story on quite thick at the beginning.  Those people all deserve each other.

Agree with Learning:

Quote
I would never take my x back. I don't want to constantly be looking over my shoulder. I don't have it in me to mend what went wrong any longer.

Come on here and read HS posts from time to time, but rarely comment anymore - I have my reasons.

Day to day life is good, we made it, we survived.  Weeks can go by without a thought of H and he hasn't been at the forefront of my mind for a long time now.  Hard to believe he was ever part of our family at times.

Still believe that one of the best things for anyone new going through this is to "live like they are never coming back".  Best advice ever.  Helps you detach and focus on you and your journey, regardless of what they are up to.

Not sure what life is like for H, or even if he is still alive (no Father's Day call this year ::)) or still married to OW.  I think in a way the jolt of that event, finding out her existence during the very same phone call he announced their marriage, helped with detachment and in turn healing.  We all have boundaries and I think mine was that once another woman is involved, regardless of the reason, then I'm done.

I am happily living the single life and wouldn't change it for the world.  I would never want to go back to how it was.  Have my independence and pay my way, while still keeping a roof over our heads.

We are a fabulous LBS bunch and need to always remember how tough we are, along with many other great qualities not always recognized or appreciated by those we love.

Hugs to all.
Title: Re: Old Timers thread 4
Post by: in it on January 23, 2019, 07:35:25 PM
 Hi Snowdrop,

Nice to see you post and of course you qualify as an old timer. Yes sometimes not getting what you thought at one time you wanted is a blessing. Glad to hear you are doing wonderful.

Yes should be the hard fast rule. Another woman/man is in the picture you are out. Depends on just how complicated things are. Everybody has to go through the process until they reach that "they have had enough point".

 I know I won't ever put up with being cheated on or abused again. I'll be out so fast anybody's head would spin.

Actually there's quite a few things I won't put up with, and being disrespected is a big one.

Don't be stranger :)
Title: Re: Old Timers thread 4
Post by: Milly on January 24, 2019, 03:15:35 AM
Thank you for updating, Snowdrop. It's good for us to hear that we can reach a place of happiness without our Hs and single.  Sad for your H that he still doesn't want a relationship with his kids.
Title: Re: Old Timers thread 4
Post by: Anjae on January 24, 2019, 12:26:42 PM
Hi, Snowdrop.

Nice to read you and to know you are doing well. Thank you for the update.

Your ex-husband is quite a vanisher.

Yes, live like they aren't coming back is a good say. So is one day at a time and focus on ourselves.

The more old timers who haven't been around for long come by and post, the more we realize MLC does take many years for a great number or MLCers.
Title: Re: Old Timers thread 4
Post by: LearningIamOk on January 25, 2019, 03:26:29 PM
Hi Snowdrop, glad to hear you have put your life together in a most satisfying way. Being single is not so bad. You have learned to enjoy your own company. And should another person interest you, you will be ready to let them in.

HT, regarding the journals, I agree with FTT that leaving some history might be beneficial. I, on the other hand, burned and shredded most everything. I reread it, was glad I did, stored away important facts that I had completely forgotten about and then destroyed the physical parts.

I also agree with Thunder that we have become completely different people. If I met my xH now, I think I would find him a completely boring @$$hat. ;D
Title: Re: Old Timers thread 4
Post by: forthetrees on January 25, 2019, 05:53:21 PM
Snowdrop, thanks for checking in. Good to know that you are now in the thrive versus survive zone.
Have your kiddos left the nest? You had been signing up for some sort of classes as I recall- did you do that?

Your ex lost out big time.
Title: Re: Old Timers thread 4
Post by: Snowdrop on January 26, 2019, 03:46:57 PM
Hi everyone.

Thank you for the nice words - same people who helped me when I first came onto HS :).

in it - agreed with all you said.  Lots of lessons learned.  Knowing what you will and won't tolerate is huge and yes, we all have boundaries and once crossed we owe it to ourselves to say I'm done, whereas we tend to give one more chance and fall for the "sorry I will never do it again".  Regardless of the situation, MLC or not, once H invested in another partner I would have been done.

Milly - yes it is nice to be okay with being single.  I do wonder though if it came "easier" to me as I have always been independent since childhood circumstances dictated it was the only way to go.  In one way when H left I felt more like the real me came back.  I don't need anyone to validate me or need to be part of a relationship to feel whole, so maybe that was an advantage.  Doesn't mean it didn't hurt and it was easy, not at all, and in our case we got BD and within minutes he was taking boxes out the door and gone, so a huge thing to deal with, as it is for us all.  Dreadful.  I often think of the families who are about to go through this and the shock and pain of it all, and how they probably have no clue about what is heading their way.  So, so sad.

Anjae - yes to all.  Definitely focus on ourselves and bit by bit the other stuff starts to consume us less.  Takes a while.  I think we have to acknowledge all the pain like grieving a death and don't try to skip any of the stages, and only then can we move forward.  It really is like a death isn't it, but as we all know, hard to grieve when that person is still alive and ready to dish out more pain.  We can grieve the death of the relationship and make way for a healthier future whether it be alone or with someone new.

Yes H ran fast and never looked back.  New wife, life, new identity, nobody to question him.  Perfect conditions for someone in MLC.  We aren't done yet though and I know all the fear and anxiety will come flooding back.  We still live in our home.  He withheld all money hoping to squeeze us out and it didn't happen.  I took over the bills and have been paying them all since he left.  He and OW were hoping we couldn't afford to stay and be forced to sell.  He hasn't made any payments towards anything so I guarantee they are sitting back waiting for their payday and see I'm helping their investment get bigger while I continue to pay all bills and the house is worth more.  I truly feel he hasn't attacked yet as his investment grows.  Once S reaches 18 this year I think he will contact us.

Dreading that and feel sick at the thought although one time he did call here a few years ago and I remember telling myself after we hung up that I have nothing to fear, he is a weak man.  He had the nerve to call and insist we had a talk on speaker phone with OW in the room - I said pick up the phone - and he did ;) bet OW wasn't happy about that - too bad.

He's lucky we didn't get further in the courts as they would have taken away his drivers licence and passport and put his mugshot up on the deadbeat dad page.  Now he has citizenship in OW country so he doesn't care, nothing will affect him.

He does feel I'm sure that he can demand the house sale and he will walk away with half.  Nope, not going to happen.  I will fight it.  Hasn't paid a dime in years towards me, the kids or the house. 

Of course like everyone else, I would look at the estimated time it took for MLC and hoped we were on the shorter end.  Him being a vanisher helped tremendously.  At first I felt we needed him back to be complete.  As mentioned before, I knew of OW existing at the same time he told me they got married, so that in itself is a huge jolt towards detachment.  No other option.

Learning - yes, funny how things work out isn't it.  Happy doing my own thing and not looking for anyone.  If they appear then great we can see where it goes, but I don't have any interest in seeking out a new relationship.  Nice if it comes my way but if not then I'm more than okay.

FTT - Yes, wow, great memory.  Went back to school to get a course I could use to apply for work after being a stay home mom for many years.  Got a job right afterwards and never looked back.  Still in same job and love it.  Took over paying bills.  Oldest in the class but got the best marks and the best job - yay me!  Not what H had hoped for I'm sure.  Wanted us out the house so he could get his payday.  Sorry H, didn't happen as you planned.

Sadly D who is now 20 has taken after her father and is now a vanisher.  We were all so close, the two kids and I, then bit by bit she stopped coming home and a couple of years ago did as he did, came home to get some "stuff" and gone.  I was heartbroken as she wouldn't even let me know if she was okay, stopped all communication.  Very sad as we were so close.  Had to wonder if it was all due to me and she said it wasn't, as did S.  Not sure what happened but shes done exactly as her dad did.  Even seemed okay not returning calls after I left messages sobbing and wondering where she was.  All so sad and gut wrenching.  Again I had to stay back and let her do her thing.  I miss her terribly.  I do now get the odd text and she explained she was trying to figure things out and her future - she has a bf and we live in a big city.  She was in Uni then after a year and a half stopped that.  Giver her credit for not pursuing something that wasn't feeding her soul.  Hoping this is all temporary and she wants to be in touch.  Nothing I can do till then.  She came home for one night early last year and apologized and swore she would never do it again, took some of her stuff and nothing heard till she needed some paperwork.  Wow - sounds exactly like the behaviour of many MLCers on here.

S is at home still - he won't be going far.  He's a handful at times too but he's alive and a teen dealing with teenage stuff in a single parent home with no other family or adults around.  He's a good kid with his own struggles - has a gf so hardly see him, but overall I think he's content.  Tracked down his father a few years ago so he could tell him what kind of person he has become (how sad).  His dad had nothing to say and immediately started talking about himself - surprise!  Neither listened to what the other had to say but this was about S and him making a huge effort to speak to his dad who has shown zero interest since leaving.  Again, so sad.

I think their father abandoning them is the reason for their behaviour and in the big picture I am thankful they are alive and somewhat happy.

Sorry for the long post - I'm good at chatting away once I get started. 

Hugs to all.  Stay fabulous!
Title: Re: Old Timers thread 4
Post by: Milly on January 26, 2019, 04:18:25 PM
Snow, you are not alone in losing a child to this MLC disease. You probably know we have a thread dedicated to this topic.

My oldest D vanished on me for 2 years after BD. Sided with her dad, talk to him regularly, she now talks to him every day, saw him, etc. I kept sending her regular messages. Never knew if she got them because I never heard from her. She went through university without me knowing what subjects she was doing, which major she had chosen. I know now that she blocked me because she says that my messages hurt her, as in they saddened her. My D has had a few years of therapy initiated by her. She has suffered terribly because of our family being destroyed.

She started coming a little closer a couple of years ago, a cold answer to my messages occasionally, saw me twice when she came back to our country but stayed with her dad. Long story, she now stays with me when she comes, and communicates with me several times a week. She tells me she loves me, appreciates everything I've done for her and her siblings since BD, asks me for advice.

I would say keep sending a little loving message once a month.
Title: Re: Old Timers thread 4
Post by: Anjae on January 27, 2019, 04:02:50 PM
Hello again, Snowdrop.

I am sorry D is now a vanisher. At times young adults do that. People also have life crisis other than MLC and life crisis, regardless of when they come, tend to be similar.

Milly - yes it is nice to be okay with being single.  I do wonder though if it came "easier" to me as I have always been independent since childhood circumstances dictated it was the only way to go.

Interesting. I also have no trouble being single. I was an independent child - and only child for nine years, very used to be on my own.
Would love a new relationship, but I am not going out of my way to get one.

I don't need anyone to validate me or need to be part of a relationship to feel whole, so maybe that was an advantage.

Makes two. Like with you, it didn't meant it didn't hurt. It did. Like hell. I had no clue what was going on all those years ago. Everything was nuts and nothing made sense.

I think we have to acknowledge all the pain like grieving a death and don't try to skip any of the stages, and only then can we move forward.  It really is like a death isn't it, but as we all know, hard to grieve when that person is still alive and ready to dish out more pain.  We can grieve the death of the relationship and make way for a healthier future whether it be alone or with someone new.

Agree. We have to acknowledge all the pain and grieving like if there was a death. Skipping stages, or trying to rush them, does not work/help. It is worst than death. Mostly because many of us still have to deal with the MLCer, or the MLCer keeps doing not so nice things that affect LBS, kids, etc. Yes, we can make way for a healthier future, alone or with someone else.

He withheld all money hoping to squeeze us out and it didn't happen.

Several of them think they are going to squeeze by withheld all the money. It is one more of the MLCer's power tactics. It tends to fail. Regardless of financial situation, the LBS will keep living and will even be able to heal and be happy again.
Title: Re: Old Timers thread 4
Post by: in it on January 27, 2019, 04:30:29 PM
I lost both my D's in this mess.
My greif has been profound. I never thought I would ever be parted from my own children due to this. The things that have happened in these last few years have been almost surreal.
I  have to accept it, as I cannot change it. I don't know  if they are in crisis.  I hope not. I'm hoping they are getting some life experience and maybe someday they will contact me.

In regards to the ex? no I don't miss nor want him back and wouldn't even I wasn't in a new relationship now that I know just how evil he is.

I have a wonderful new man in my life who is kind and treats me well. Is very attentive and affectionate.

The ex couldn't hold a candle to him.
Title: Re: Old Timers thread 4
Post by: Anjae on January 27, 2019, 04:42:02 PM
What happened to you, and others who lost their children because of a spouse MLC is horrific, In It. You also had to deal with a physically violent MLCer.

Truly hope your daughters will one day contact you.
Title: Re: Old Timers thread 4
Post by: Snowdrop on February 04, 2019, 03:51:30 PM
Hi all.

Quote
Snow, you are not alone in losing a child to this MLC disease.
The worst isn't it.  Nice to see that your D is in touch.  I just have to leave her alone and let her decide when she is ready.  Just amazing to me that the one person who saw first hand what pain this causes, did exactly the same as her father.  That tells me this is out of their control.

Quote
My greif has been profound. I never thought I would ever be parted from my own children due to this. The things that have happened in these last few years have been almost surreal.
I  have to accept it, as I cannot change it. I don't know  if they are in crisis.  I hope not. I'm hoping they are getting some life experience and maybe someday they will contact me.

In regards to the ex? no I don't miss nor want him back
Same here :'(

Quote
Interesting. I also have no trouble being single. I was an independent child - and only child for nine years, very used to be on my own.
Would love a new relationship, but I am not going out of my way to get one.

I don't need anyone to validate me or need to be part of a relationship to feel whole, so maybe that was an advantage.

Makes two. Like with you, it didn't meant it didn't hurt. It did. Like hell. I had no clue what was going on all those years ago. Everything was nuts and nothing made sense.
Yes.  I just go about my day to day life and am content.  Whatever happens in the future will be dealt with as it happens.  Not looking for a relationship, in fact I'm not sure if I would even welcome one at the moment.  Then again, if it happened and was mutual, who knows?  Same with H, I have no thoughts of ever wanting to be around him or even speak with him again, but if he was in touch, I'm not sure what I would do.  I don't wish him harm, I am just not interested in repairing or investing energy into him or any relationship - I'm just done.

That's how I am in general anyway.  Very forgiving to a point and then I'm done and there's no turning back.  Lies and deceit get an instant bye.  I know what I offer as a friend and partner and if I can't have that in return then what is the point.  Always said I would never want to be in a relationship with anyone who didn't want to be with me.

The whole MLC situation is shocking to the system and a process to navigate.  I remember those early days and that physical heartache, waking up in the night and going through the motions each day, trying to keep life as "normal" as possible for the kids.  Such cruelty was dished out by a man I'd loved and been with for over 20 years. Wouldn't expect that from a stranger never mind him.  Your whole life as you know it is over and there's a sense of not knowing, but then it goes.  New paths and plans, and before you know it your healing starts.

Whatever MLC situation we have had to deal with and whatever path we are now on, I know this site has been so helpful in my journey.  Lots of tears and laughs, huge shoulders to cry on and kind empathetic souls lending an ear and providing comfort. I am beyond grateful for the friends made as well as the information learned.  Knowing inside what was true has kept my head above water as in the end that's all that matters.  I learned that one day when I heard H was telling people it was a "mutual decision" that we separated.  I wanted to scream from the rooftops that it wasn't so, and by him saying that negated the kid's pain - mine too - but especially theirs.  Then I stopped and thought how it really doesn't matter.  Let him tell his lies, and let those people all believe him.  His friends and family believed it all.  None of them ever contacted us since he left - that's who they are.  I have no respect for them so why worry about them knowing the truth, it doesn't matter.

I'm sure his lies must have caught him out by now (hope so) and that's for him to deal with.  The kids and I know the truth and what really happened, and that's what is important.  We have lived our lives in truth and honesty, and with integrity.  Can't say that for him but I know for sure that living an honest life is so much better.  Feel sorry for him in a way.  Can't imagine living a made up existence. 

Wonder how it worked out with OW in the end.  Either they are a match made in heaven - if that's the case then keep far, far away from us - or did the masks fall and reality smacked them in the face. 

No-one's MLCer is worse than another, no type is worse than another.  Every last bit of it caused pain and we have a common bond that not everyone understands.

We are a great bunch.  Hugs to all.
Title: Re: Old Timers thread 4
Post by: LearningIamOk on February 04, 2019, 06:57:18 PM
Hi Snowdrop. Yes, the pain and lies are dreadful. But we do manage to get thru it. I am sorry your inlaws have never contacted you. As you said, let everyone he talks to believe his lies. It doesn't matter because you do know the truth.

I told my xH that I hoped he could reconcile the man he is with the man he believes himself to be, because they are worlds apart.
Title: Re: Old Timers thread 4
Post by: HeartTattoo on February 05, 2019, 03:32:07 PM
I think one use of this “Old-Timers’ Thread” can be to illustrate the timeline as we move on from BD. May be helpful to newcomers. As some have said success here is not necessarily a restored M with the MLCer, but can also be the establishment of a healthy new independent life.

Six years now since BD, three & half years since H’s D & marriage to the OW, & three years since I moved to a new city & began my new life, I still think of H everyday & he is frequently in my dreams, but my thoughts of him are becoming more fleeting & inconsequential. Just like his vanished presence in my life—irrelevant.

My mind is no longer tortured by the “Why?” of it all. I have come to accept, really just as a function of time, that there are no answers to the tortured questions I had in the first years after BD. There will never be any answers. Even if H was somehow in front of me willing to talk, he would not have the answers himself. He never did & he never will. It is why his answers to my anguished “Why?” during his BD explanations were so absurd. It will all remain a mystery of H’s mentally unhealthy childhood, his addictive personality, & his super-power to deny his own feelings, his own needs, his own weaknesses.

I am still curious at times about my H’s new life. I imagine him happy with his OW & their life together. Why else would he still be there? Why else did he give up all that he threw away to be with the OW? HS & my counselor told me this would never be true. But, again, pretty much irrelevant to my life now.

But, I’m not completely disinterested yet. On a boring Sunday afternoon, I googled H’s & OW’s names. It is weird that when I do that, I come up with a surreal list of “associated persons”—H, OW, my name, our kids’ names, her D’s names. I came across a fairly new article about OW in some newsletter. Pretty much verbatim the same story that I saw years ago in another newsletter. Her boosterism of education & her ascent from marriage at 18 to a masters degree all while working full-time & raising a daughter. She has positioned herself from schoolteacher to the head of some state agency having to do with education. I had to laugh out loud, when a line read “Ever aspirational (H’s surname) has gone on to blah, blah, blah.” Aspirational in improving oneself is admirable. Having an affair with a M’ed man & participating in the break-up of two families because you aspire to a “better” partner (more education, more money, more impressive job title) not so admirable. Of course, the article didn’t mention any of that  ;) ::) :o :P     
Title: Re: Old Timers thread 4
Post by: forthetrees on February 05, 2019, 06:51:18 PM
Hey HT,
Why they stay with the new life, hmmm. Maybe it´s because it would require a Herculean amount of energy - mental and emotional- to address the situation they´ve created and then do something about the LBS situation. I am not sure that even after years of post BD that they have developed the emotional and communication tools to navigate a partnership let alone even being able to describe their current emotional state.
It  may be like the saying, "If wishes were horses then beggars would ride." Wishing it is not enough.

Then again, maybe we will be proven wrong. I figure that time will eventually reveal that piece of the puzzle- like the wind or water eroding a mountain to reveal the bedrock.
Title: Re: Old Timers thread
Post by: Believer on February 06, 2019, 05:55:27 AM
FTT,

I think you’re correct about the effort both mental and emotional that it would take the MLCer to fix things.

In a recent and rare communication with my xH ( think ...siting of an endangered species lol ! ) he mentioned something that supports that mindset.
I did smile about his reference  of  “ shared responsibility of what went wrong”. Although there were certainly growth and development opportunities for me,I didnt implode our marriage and family in order to figure myself out. 
He’s far from the end of his journey, still struggling to look at himself deeply however I thought his response showed

1) the emotional weight to change
2) they do still watch us even if we don’t hear from them
3) they do and want to see us stronger than they are

This was his comment ...

I'm as much responsible for what has happened.  None of us are perfect and many mistakes were made along the way, at least you had the will and courage to face it and deal with it.  I've always thought of you as a strong person and you have proven that with the fight to better yourself. You have succeeded and so far I have not. I'm glad you have found the peace you have worked so hard for. I'm proud of you and probably envious.

And so because he still hasn’t the courage or will he’ll continue on the path of least resistance and self inflicted pain and marry the OW this summer.  I just have to let him work through this on his own.
That has been my greatest learning in all of this.

Believer

Title: Re: Old Timers thread 4
Post by: xyzcf on February 06, 2019, 06:35:11 AM
Even now, so many years later, I sit up when I read something that is uncannily the "same" as what I was told.

Believer wrote:
Quote
I did smile about his reference  of  “ shared responsibility of what went wrong”. Although there were certainly growth and development opportunities for me,I didnt implode our marriage and family in order to figure myself out.

I think what my husband said to me, several years after BD, is something like "I know you blame me for what happened but you also had some responsibility" or something like that.

Ok, I am not "perfect" but really, whatever it was that I did...he never once told me or expressed his displeasure or indicated that he needed something else from me and whatever it was in his eyes that I am responsible for, I did not destroy our family..that lies totally on his shoulders and his shoulders alone.

Thanks for sharing. Somehow the crisis  replaces what is true in their minds to a version that isn't reality.
Title: Re: Old Timers thread 4
Post by: OldPilot on February 06, 2019, 06:43:28 AM
Somehow the crisis  replaces what is true in their minds to a version that isn't reality.
Rewritten History, of course!
Title: Re: Old Timers thread 4
Post by: Believer on February 06, 2019, 06:52:31 AM
Xyzcf,

So very true that the crisis replaces the truth.

I completely understand your comment about “not perfect”, yet they didn’t say anything to us indicate otherwise ..even when asked at times I’m sure.

I remember thinking about this a lot, I came to the conclusion that either it wasn’t as big a deal as they make it out to be OR it highlited an area of their own personal growth they needed to develop, such as learning to share if something said or done truly hurt thier feelings.
Please don’t misunderstand I’m still owning what’s truly my junk to own however there were things that my exH said to me that had me shaking my head.  :o

Title: Re: Old Timers thread 4
Post by: Anjae on February 06, 2019, 01:16:08 PM
"Though no one is perfect, in the beginning you will search your own behavior for what went wrong. Since the MLCer often offers a long list of your transgressions, it is not a difficult search. In the beginning, many LBS's accept this blame, using it as the excuse for the bad marriage. For many experiencing this crisis in their marriage, there was no bad marriage. Though nothing is perfect, many problems were not significant enough to warrant danger. The problem is the Midlife Crisis. Some of the MLCer complaints are valid. Listen, validate and affirm, and then filter what feels valid to you. This crisis is not your fault; it would have happened regardless of your behavior."

"Maybe you were too controlling, complained all the time, addicted to sex, porn, alcohol etc. Look within yourself and change for yourself. But please understand that no matter how great or small your flaws and transgressions, they are not the cause of someone else's Midlife Crisis."

From: https://www.midlifecrisismarriageadvocate.com/standing-actions_progress_mlc-time.html - Midlife Crisis Takes TIME

MLCers may say that the LBS is also at fault for this, that and those and shares half the responsability for their crisis. Not so, MLC is a personal, individual crisis and only the MLCer is responsible for it. As said in the article, the problem is Midlife Crisis itself.
Title: Re: Old Timers thread 4
Post by: Milly on February 06, 2019, 02:11:07 PM
Anjae, you described exactly what I felt like from BD to now. At first, blaming myself completely for the breakdown of the marriage. Then looking at myself and finding the things I could improve. Then finding the help to work on myself. Then owning my part and letting go of his.

Yes, I could have avoided some of my behaviour in my marriage, but what I'm beginning to realize finally is that if I had married someone without the problems my H has, my 'things' would probably not have mattered, or if they would have, they would have been discussed and we would have found a way to work through them.

Title: Re: Old Timers thread 4
Post by: Believer on February 06, 2019, 02:23:34 PM
Anjae,

Always a good reminder about the MLC process and not the distractions that get tossed in the mix !

Believer
Title: Re: Old Timers thread 4
Post by: Anjae on February 06, 2019, 03:36:40 PM
It was RCR who described it. The quotes are from one of her articles that are on HS main site article's section.

The whole article is worth reading, as are all of RCR articles and blog posts.

They can be found here: https://www.midlifecrisismarriageadvocate.com/chapter-contents.html and here:

I think it is interesting and important to debate and study all matters pertaining and surrounding MLC. Otherwise people like RCR and HB would had never written their articles and our knowledge of MLC would still be reduce to "red sports car, 20 years old blonde bimbo and it lasts six months".

However, it is also very importat for the LBS to know they did not cause their spouse MLC, that the marriage was not the issue and that the spouse MLC would had happened regardless of who they marry, or didn't marry. Single, long divorced (non-MLC divorce) and widowed people have MLC. MLC is not a marital issue.

Milly, bottom line, your things didn't mattered. They didn't cause your husband's MLC. But I understand what you mean. Indeed, if we had married someone who didn't had a MLC things would be different. Yet, many couples divorce and/or have serious issues without the existence of MLC. And, there are even people who marry twice and end up with two MLCers. Some are HS members, like Ursa.

That is, we never know what is going to happen and to whom. Which is a very good for us to keep on living according to whatever think is the best way for us. Life is uncertain, and we only have one life.