Midlife Crisis: Support for Left Behind Spouses

Midlife Crisis => Our Community => Topic started by: Anon on June 22, 2020, 08:09:58 PM

Title: Roads with Forks and never ending decisions.
Post by: Anon on June 22, 2020, 08:09:58 PM
Previous thread:

I had a very interesting conversation today with someone very knowledgeable about MLC.   My situation is more complex than I thought.   Plain and simple,, things are not as they appear.   I need to rethink several things.   It might be a game changer, or maybe not,,, but I need time to contemplate and consider carefully what was discussed.    I'll take some time to do that and come back with a post when I have more to say.   

Title: Roads with Forks and never ending decisions.
Post by: 3Boys4Me on June 22, 2020, 10:41:40 PM
Following along Anon.
Title: Roads with Forks and never ending decisions.
Post by: UrsaMajor on June 23, 2020, 01:31:27 AM
Previous thread:

I had a very interesting conversation today with someone very knowledgeable about MLC.   My situation is more complex than I thought.   Plain and simple,, things are not as they appear.   I need to rethink several things.   It might be a game changer, or maybe not,,, but I need time to contemplate and consider carefully what was discussed.    I'll take some time to do that and come back with a post when I have more to say.   

This could be interesting.... sort of a GoT Cliffhanger....
Title: Re: Roads with Forks and never ending decisions.
Post by: CheerHeart on June 23, 2020, 03:53:48 AM
Title: Roads with Forks and never ending decisions.
Post by: KeepItTogether on June 23, 2020, 02:45:23 PM
Serious cliff-hangar Anon!
Title: Roads with Forks and never ending decisions.
Post by: megogirl on June 23, 2020, 03:17:11 PM
Title: Roads with Forks and never ending decisions.
Post by: Anon on June 23, 2020, 03:29:56 PM
Cliffhanger?  ;D   Haha,,, it's a bit of a cliffhanger for me too!    It will be a couple of weeks.    I'm not trying to be secretive or cliffhangy, but I need more information and more thinking before I am comfortable proceeding.   

My second complimentary lawyer consult was today for an hour.   I'm glad I spoke to him and he raised some excellent points that I hadn't considered before.  I have another important consultation with a psychologist on July 8.   After I'm finished that appointment I will need to absorb it all and start sorting through the options.  If I want to sleep in peace at night, I cant rush this process,,,otherwise I should just see a Taro Card reader or similar, where they can just tell me what to do and when.  ::)  Fortunately, that is not my way.   

Title: Re: Roads with Forks and never ending decisions.
Post by: Milly on June 28, 2020, 11:48:59 AM
Following, Anon. I hope some good stuff will come your way soon.
Title: Roads with Forks and never ending decisions.
Post by: Anon on July 09, 2020, 06:18:55 PM
Well I’m finally back to update after 2 solid weeks of giving more serious thought than ever to what direction I want to take going forward.  Option A (cut all ties) or Option B (continue standing).   I was firmly for Option A but found myself reconsidering for a few reasons.   The main one,, to be sure I was not making a mistake.

At the beginning of those 2 weeks I had a very interesting session with a coach who knows a lot about MLC.   It was time well spent and I got a new perspective on my situation which led me to reconsider Option B again.   Then at the end of the 2 weeks (yesterday) I had a session with a different specialist who also knows a bit about MLC.   I used the time in between these sessions to carefully consider both options.  I expected to be quite torn but wanted to work it out on my own so I chose not to post on my thread for those 2 weeks.   I always had a hunch that given enough time, my h would come back but don’t all LBS’s believe that?  Are we even capable of assessing that likelihood on our own?  No… we are too close to the situation and we are far from objective observers.   

In my first session we explored more about h and how we got to where we are now 3 years later.   I’ll not go into those details here but at the end of the discussion with the coach, it was glaringly obvious to both of us that my h wants to come home.  He’s not ready right now but  in the meantime he is clinging tightly like a drowning man to a life raft to hang on to what is left of our remaining connections whether that’s emotional or practical (like stalling on selling the houses).  He needs help getting home because he can’t do it himself right now.  He’s deep in the quicksand of his relationship with ow, who has all the signs of being a seriously disordered individual.   She has him firmly in her grasp and is not letting him go.    People with these disorders are very difficult to break up with.  My h has attempted to pull away from her before but he has nowhere near the emotional strength to be successful.   She continues to pressure him to do what she wants which basically amounts to severing all associations with me including selling the houses, and moving forward right now with obtaining a divorce.    This isn’t fuelled by undying love for h either.   It’s a sick game to destroy all connections to his past life and when this is accomplished they lose interest quickly.  The relationship is no longer exciting because there is nothing left to destroy except the relationship itself.  Once that is done the game begins anew with a new victim and his family.   My h’s ow has done this at least twice and maybe more - destroyed a marriage and a family.   He is at least her 3rd victim and not likely he will be the last either.   

I realize this doesn’t absolve h from his responsibility and he will have to face that some day.   He had the choice to take those first steps with her or turn away but in his extremely depressed condition he was a sitting duck for an experienced manipulator like this disordered women.   Her radar would have picked up his vulnerability from a mile away.   He just needed to feel some relief from the pain of his depression and she had all the right things to say.    The day he flew off to the reunion where he met her, I was very concerned about his state of mind and wondered if he should even go.    He didn’t really want to either but went in the end because the tickets were already paid for.   It was a life changing decision if there ever was one.  And yeah,,, if not her then someone else,,, but I can’t help but wonder if that’s true.  And please,,, I know there is full blame that falls on his shoulders as well.   I’m just pointing out the compassionate view of what happened in the beginning and how he slid down that very slippery slope.   If he knew what he knows now, this would not be what he wanted and he would have stepped away from this dangerous situation. 

So on to my 2nd session yesterday which was very productive.   After 2 weeks of contemplating and being brutally honest with myself,  I was still strongly leaning for the clean break of Option A.  But I was confused - very confused.   If I wanted this clean break then why am I having a difficult time just letting go?  I don’t really see us together again, nor do I particularly want that either, despite my love for him and compassion for this sad MLC he's in.   It felt like I was done,,, but not done at the same time.   Darn it anyway,,, it’s that not done aspect that keeps me entangled when I don’t want to be entangled.   It’s hard to explain but I’m sure many of you can relate.   My desire for Option A had nothing to do with how I was treated or what a jerk he is or any of that.   It was more about me and what I wanted for my life which was a normal life with peace and contentment.  I haven’t felt that for 3 years now and I miss it and want it back.   So why was I allowing myself to still be in the midst of h’s mlc mess.   I didn’t understand it because I could NOT see us back together despite wanting that a lot of the time.   I truly felt stuck - can’t let go but pretty sure I’m done.   wtf, you know? 

We talked for an hour and toward the end of the session the psychologist had a theory about that and ran it by me.   Her theory struck home so directly and I was almost immediately in tears.   She had uncovered something I instantly knew was holding me back but hadn’t consciously acknowledged.   

What was her theory?  I have became a procrastinator on facing the inevitable pain of a final breakup,,, I just kept putting it off for the time being because I know on some level I will be devastated all over again,,, at the final goodbye and the final ending.   I allowed myself to stay stuck in the mlc muck and triangle with h and ow because I had so much fear about what lay ahead and how much it was going to hurt.  Every final ending brings pain and I had already had enough pain for a few lifetimes and I didn't want any more.   The only problem with refusing to face it,  is that it keeps me stuck.   To break free I have to face it and deal with it.  There is great fear in me about how I will handle the emotional bomb I am about to unleash on myself.   Somewhere in my psyche I know the pain will be another huge trauma.   I am as fearful of facing that as I would be undergoing open heart surgery without anaesthetic.  It would be a lot easier if I allowed myself to have some kind of friendship with h or stay in touch and have a drink together once in awhile but that isn't a clean break and would also keep me stuck.    The best thing for me is a clean break,, no looking back, no contact, no nothing, otherwise the peace will not come.   

So I will continue to see this psychologist.     She said at the end of the session to not let fear stop me from moving toward what I want for myself despite the inevitable pain that it will bring.  She will help me with that and believes I will make a successful transition.  I am sure she is right.   

So what’s it going to be?  Option A or B?   

OPTION A.    Despite the remaining love and compassion I have for my h, and predictions that he will one day want to come home, and everything else related to that,  I am no longer willing to sacrifice any more of my life to his MLC than I already have.   If he returns the challenges would be far from over and I have doubts that we would survive that at all.   I just don’t see myself surviving the reconnecting and reconciling years.   So it’s Option A all the way.   

Now that I have more clarity on what I want for myself and that the only way to get it is through Option A,,, I have great peace with my decision and I am so glad I took these last 2 weeks to be certain.   

The unfortunate part,,, we are still owners of 2 houses that are not yet up for sale.   H was all for selling both right away a week ago so I don’t know what the delay is now.    To be honest I’d like to stay in one of the houses, sell the other one, and buy h out of his share.   I’m not sure if this is now a bit scary for him as a clinger but he has taken an awfully long time to tell the realtor to write up the listing. 
Title: Roads with Forks and never ending decisions.
Post by: Treasur on July 09, 2020, 10:35:52 PM
I am glad, Anon, that you have given yourself time to really think through your choices.
What you say - both about your h and you - makes a great deal of sense.
It sounds though as if the drive behind your choice, real though the fears are, is a positive one....in the sense of being more about wanting to move towards something as opposed to not wanting to move away from something? We feel the difference I think....
Title: Re: Roads with Forks and never ending decisions.
Post by: Milly on July 10, 2020, 01:35:22 AM
Hi Anon, I've read your post with great interest. I'm very happy for you that you've come to a decision about how you wish to go forward. I suspect it is true, the fear of feeling that BD pain again, but I have faith that it won't ever be as bad as BD, especially because this time, you are getting to make the decision. I feel that one of the hard parts of BD is the complete lack of participation in our spouse's decision to destroy the marriage and blow up our lives. Taking the lead as you would, will surely help you push through the lingering pain and withdrawal. After all, your aim is to reach a happier place at the end.

Sending you lots of strength to keep working with your therapist and to sort out the house issues.x
Title: Roads with Forks and never ending decisions.
Post by: Ro828 on July 10, 2020, 05:58:58 AM

Your post hit home on so many levels for me.  I felt and did the exact same thing.  My X is also involved with a very disordered OW who did this at least 2 times with other men.  It is extremely hard for them to walk away from these women. I also chose Option A and even though it was sad and hard I am much more happier and at peace.  I no longer feel that I'm walking around with this albatross around my neck waiting as the minutes, weeks, months, years tick by that he is going to come out and want to return.  Should that day come I'll cross that bridge then. 

On the issue with your H stopping the conversations about selling the homes, do you think it's possible he too is procrastinating for the exact same reason (he's in his own pain and can't bear more)?  Just a thought. 

Anyways, I've followed your story and will continue to but for what it's worth you sound like a strong person and I have no doubt you will be fine with whatever decision you choose. 
Title: Roads with Forks and never ending decisions.
Post by: 3Boys4Me on July 10, 2020, 05:27:28 PM
Wow Anon, congratulations on your big decision. Brave. Stepping into your own power is quite satisfying. Wishing you all the best and I can’t wait for future updates.

Title: Roads with Forks and never ending decisions.
Post by: Nerissa on July 11, 2020, 07:47:27 AM
I identify strongly with your difficulty in cutting the final thread and think you have been very honest with yourself and courageous in consulting with your psychologist.

It seems a pro-you’ choice and gives you an opportunity to for us in yourself properly. 

Life is long and changes all the time.  Who knows what will happen? And if H one day matured enough to ask to talk to you properly, you may, if it suits you,  have connection, but of a more mature and satisfying quality.  All the best x
Title: Re: Roads with Forks and never ending decisions.
Post by: Milly on July 11, 2020, 03:53:01 PM
Nerissa, you always make such wise comments. Anon, I support whatever decision you make. I don't think it will be easy either way.
Title: Roads with Forks and never ending decisions.
Post by: KeepItTogether on July 11, 2020, 06:52:04 PM
I agree Anon. Sometimes I think the only thing keeping me "stuck" is his constant clinger-ish tenancies that reel me in time after time. Certainly conversations like you have with you H would keep me there.  So I get it. And your decision is giving me strength. B/c Maybe that is what I need to do too. To move forward. B/c maybe, as Nerissa says, he may come back a totally different person and things will be different./ But for now. it is not good. It is pain. Constant pain. Cutting the cord may be in order.

We never know what tomorrow holds. All we can do is live for today as good, decent humans. God has a plan for us. You are such an amazing person. Your H knows this. Otherwise he would not be communicating with you now. But you have to do what you have to do for YOU.

Hugs friend. Thank you for being such an inspiration.
Title: Roads with Forks and never ending decisions.
Post by: Anon on July 11, 2020, 07:16:44 PM
Milly, Nerissa, 3Boys, RO, Treasur....Thank you for your encouragement and support!   I will need it going forward as I found out yesterday and a bit today.   I cried some but also realized this is the grief my stand has suppressed until now.  So I just let it flow, knowing it will come and I knowing I will cry, and eventually it will just not come anymore.  Standing gave me a lot of peace.  The belief he will come back one day supported my Stand.  I didn't realize how my Stand and the hope that comes with it was preventing me from moving toward the necessary grief I must work through if I am to truly recover.   The grief hit me hard once I was firm in my decision to go Option A.  My IC warned me this would happen and it makes sense that it would too.   It's the grief and it's also the fear of facing the grief.   I need to deal with both. 

Moving toward cutting these remaining ties - just thinking about it upsets me.   But still.... I really don't want him back, nor can I visualize a reconciliation actually working out.   I wouldn't want him to touch me,,, never mind kiss me,,, etc,,,   I can't imagine the counseling it would take to fix this enough for my trust to ever return.   God would have to work an amazing miracle in me for that to happen.  And tbh,,, I don't think he has a return in mind for me and pretty sure my h doesn't have that in mind either.   So that makes 3 of us.  Whatever God brings next into my life, it will be good,,,, and better than I can imagine.   I trust enough to believe that's true. 

So upset or not,,,, I"ll just take what's next in small bites as I can handle it.    My IC recommended a book called 'Rebuilding: When Your Relationship Fails".   It's an average 4.75/ 5 of the reviews.    It's a book that does encourage recovery work in small bites.

On the practical side... I have still heard nothing from h regarding selling the houses.   I'm not pushing atm because this is a grief of a different kind I will face.   Leaving my home,,, knowing I will never live in such a perfect place for me and my cat again.   My cat goes outside and mostly hangs out on my porch in his carrier (with door removed).   But he will also roam a bit - visit and antagonize the neighbors cat, cross the street taking his sweet time.   It's hard finding a rental that beats this home,,, not at a price I can afford anyway.   I might still move into our rental house and buy him out but my financial guy says I would do so much better if I choose to rent instead of own.   I am seriously considering his advice because going forward I want to have enough money to live as I choose.   My home equity, if invested into a fund that pays me monthly if I rent, will allow me to live as I choose.   If I stay in the rental house.... I would have much less/mo.   The only problem with this plan is it's very tough to find a rental that is anywhere comparable to my current home or that is safe enough for my cat.   It will be a major adjustment and not one I'm looking forward to.   As soon as h agrees (for the millionth time) to sell the house, it will be listed.    Even though he walked away from our life,, he seems to have trouble walking away from our house which he hasn't lived in for 3 years. 

Ok,,, time to go read some threads and get caught up.   Thanks again to all who support me and who read my thread.

Title: Roads with Forks and never ending decisions.
Post by: Standing Strong on July 11, 2020, 07:35:56 PM
Takes a lot of courage to do what you're doing Anon. Very admirable.

Most people will take the easier of two roads (or the perceived easier of two roads). I think it's always the right thing to run at pain and embrace it: it's the only way to conqueror it.

Title: Roads with Forks and never ending decisions.
Post by: OffRoad on July 11, 2020, 07:51:22 PM
Here is a thought for you to take forward with you: Taking care of you means that no matter what happens, or where everything and everyone ends up, you will be ok with yourself.

My theory has always been that I was going to stand until the divorce (or I found and OW), and my stand ended at the divorce. However, for me, should XH EVER appear on my doorstep with genuine remorse ( the the imitation kind), I would cross that bridge when I got there. What this did for me was allow me to understand that I don't have to say "His coming back is never going to happen" to move forward. I can say "It's ok if it never happens and if it did, that isn't going to change who me is either."

You are wise for determining what YOU need to move forward. That doesn't make it any less scary or easier to deal with, but it sounds like you are ready to deal with the fear and the grief now. six months ago, you probably weren't.

As to your cat,  when I moved many years ago, and the home I was leaving was the only home my cat had known and this new home was not as pet friendly, oddly enough my cat stuck to the back yard. She didn't wander to the dangerous front yard. I can hope that wherever you end up, your cat is just as smart. :)
Title: Roads with Forks and never ending decisions.
Post by: Anon on July 11, 2020, 08:25:31 PM
KIT, Standing, OR....

KIT... I had drafted what I thought was a helpful response to your post.   Well thought out, and all that, then I lost it.   Ugh.... Started again although the 2nd draft is never quite as good as the first one,, at least not for me.    It was done and ready to go and I did it again and it too was GONE.    Maybe I should either drink Pinot Grigio or post on HS,,, but not both at the same time.   :-\     I will make another attempt tomorrow, on Pages first then cut/paste to HS.  I've never lost anything on Pages before.   I'm done with losing my posts on HS!  Going back/forward didn't help this time either.   

Standing and OR... thanks for your posts!  I'll work on my reply tomorrow as well.   ::)   
Title: Roads with Forks and never ending decisions.
Post by: Anon on July 12, 2020, 04:43:51 PM
Well I’m back to properly respond.   I’m typing this on Pages,,, done with losing posts on HS. 

KIT,,, Yes, those clinger-ish behaviours kept me stuck because they gave me hope that his return and our reconciliation was just a matter of time.  Your H is a bit ahead of my h with respect to exiting the tunnel.   Right now mine has gone into a bit of a dark mode,,, like some of the MLC articles say - it get’s worse before it gets better.     It’s a welcome relief really and it will make my transition that much easier.    I have thought for a long time that your H and mine are similar in their contact styles.  I also think your H will attempt a return, just like mine.   I’m sure we will both see these return attempts eventually.   Too bad for my h, that I now what something different for my own life and it doesn’t include him.    After 3 years I had a last straw moment recently and I said to myself, “ENOUGH”.   And that was the end of my being stuck.   I’ve seen you very close to this point as well.   I’ve felt your pain through your posts, and your anger at how you’ve been treated over and over again.  I sense you are close to saying ‘enough’ and your H should be thinking very carefully about his choices when it comes to you and your S.   Nerissa makes a good point,,, they may be different when they return.   Different enough that the old dynamic you had is gone and possibly replaced with a new dynamic that isn’t compatible with marriage?  That’s as much to do with our own change as well as theirs.   

Alright,,enough of that, except this… God does have a plan for us,,, oh yes,,, and He says if your country ever gets it’s $h!te together, I can show up on your doorstep with Chocolate Croissants, Gelato, and a few bottles of Prosecco!   Can’t wait for that day, lol…   With enough Prosecco we can solve the worlds problems, right?

Stay strong and you also do what you have to do for you,,, which may be different that what I have to do for me.    You are the amazing one KIT.   You are a drop dead gorgeous head turner and you have the most beautiful spirit to go with it.   I was lucky enough to witness that in you last year and you deserve the very best.   Just remember that,, always.   

Tight Hugs and cheek kisses (through a mask, of course).   

Title: Roads with Forks and never ending decisions.
Post by: Anon on July 12, 2020, 05:11:35 PM
Off Road,,, thanks for your reply.   You made me think.   I used to believe I would be taking the easy way out by walking away.   I was proud of my strength in standing.   Now that I’m walking away, I see it differently.    In my own case (not everyone’s), me staying put and standing was the weaker choice.   Especially in the last year or so.   All I was doing by ‘standing’ was procrastinating, delaying the inevitable, while praying for a miracle and proof that my standing was not for nothing.    Standing allowed me to delay the pain and grief of intentionally breaking up with him once and for all, even though he had already broken up with me long ago.     I had long periods of peace believing that one day all would be well with H and I.    I can honestly say that walking away, even though I know with absolute certainty that it is best for me, requires enormous strength.   I read somewhere just this morning that staying stuck is like standing on broken shards of glass but when you decide to move,  you are walking across those broken shards which is more painful but full healing is up ahead.   
Title: Roads with Forks and never ending decisions.
Post by: Anon on July 12, 2020, 05:24:46 PM
Thanks Standing,,,, I believe you very wise when you say,  “Most people will take the easier of two roads (or the perceived easier of two roads).”    Early in my LBS journey, I did take the easier of two roads.   Back then I wouldn’t have survived a walk down the other road, except I never saw it that way back then.   I always thought at least one of us in this marriage was willing to sacrifice to restore the marriage.  I was the better one, the stronger one, the smarter one,,, because I would do anything to restore the marriage.   Now I just see myself as the stupid one.  That may be a bit harsh, lol.    I had good intentions but beneath all of it was an avoidance of facing the dreaded pain of really letting go… for good.   For many LBS this may NOT be their motive for standing ,,,, but it was my motive.   It took awhile but I am now ready to embrace that pain,, or walk across those shards of glass because I want what lies beyond.   
Title: Re: Roads with Forks and never ending decisions.
Post by: CheerHeart on July 13, 2020, 05:57:42 AM
Catching up Anon.

I'll be honest, I had the same motives for standing as you did. Sometimes even now, when the reality bites too hard, I retreat back to the comfort of the standing community and their soothing words. It always sets me back but when I'm in that space I don't feel pain and have lots of hope.

Your courage is incredible, really inspiring. I have a great deal of respect for you in this. You've looked in the situation very squarely in the eyes and held its stare, you're not dropping your gaze. You're being completely honest and authentic with yourself, which can be the hardest thing to do.
Title: Roads with Forks and never ending decisions.
Post by: KeepItTogether on July 13, 2020, 08:36:58 AM
Alright,,enough of that, except this… God does have a plan for us,,, oh yes,,, and He says if your country ever gets it’s $h!te together, I can show up on your doorstep with Chocolate Croissants, Gelato, and a few bottles of Prosecco!   Can’t wait for that day, lol…   With enough Prosecco we can solve the worlds problems, right?

Sounds like a plan to me! Of course not only am I in the bad country right now, but my county is one of the worst. But yes we must make plans soon my friend. You really do sound so grounded. I know it is still painful, but you are moving forward.  I'll update my thread, but my H is still in the height of replay, with no end in sight.  It's just getting old.  I know you get it.

And thanks for the compliments, but they go right back to you. You deserve the best! I know both of our H's will forever regret these massive mistakes. But if they can't, or won't even try to fix themselves, there is no hope of any possible relationship at all.
Title: Roads with Forks and never ending decisions.
Post by: Anon on July 17, 2020, 11:29:55 AM
What is going on and why am I confused and hurt all over again?   Just wrapped up 3 years since BD and now into year 4.   For ALL of that time, h has been a close contacter, boomerang, maybe even clinging boomerang.   

Since the 3rd anniversary,,, he has drastically changed.   Suddenly wants a divorce (in the new year), after insisting he doesn't want one,  didn't want to sell the houses but now suddenly he wants to go ahead,  promised to stay on mtg if I need his signature to stay in one of the houses, and now doesn't want to do it.  Probably because he and ow are about to buy another place in her city (2000 miles away).    Contact has gone from a few times a week to almost nothing, except if it's about the house sale.   Suddenly, is more cold toward me than not, shows not a shred of interest in even simple conversation.    I put a boundary in place around that time about contact but I didn't expect him to embrace it so totally.   In fact, I don't think the boundary has anything to do with the new distant behavior. 

I am hurting about the looming final end to our relationship, selling our property, cutting all ties.   It's what I need and want, but it still hurts and will until I adjust.    H on the other hand, seems fine for the most part except for telling me briefly that he didn't sleep well for a week when considering to sell or not sell, and then once he decided to go ahead, sighed and said "It's quite a mess, isn't it?".    What on earth did that mean? 

I shouldn't care in the least.   I must follow my Plan A to have my peace but it just feels like - well 2 things:
1.   Plan A was coming whether I wanted it or not.    It's the direction h is moving toward himself and might even beat me to it.   
2.  I've been dumped all over again, just when I was about to dump him.   Maybe I should initiate the divorce instead of leaving it for h to do.   At least I will not give him or ow the satisfaction of sticking it to me again. 

Why does it feel like ow has won?   I don't mean she's won because she successfully pulled my h away from me, but she's won because I wonder if winning to her was some kind of contest win between her and I.    As far as winning my h?  She didn't win anything but a sad, confused man who has nothing of value to offer her or really anyone in his current state of mind.   

I really didn't expect any confusion about my Plan A.     I'm not sure if it's confusion or if I'm just hurt because there is no resistance coming from him suddenly.   He seems to be deeper into the mlc tunnel than I've ever seen him.   I'd like to say I'm not worried about that, but it seems I am somehow. 

Title: Roads with Forks and never ending decisions.
Post by: Treasur on July 17, 2020, 11:50:03 AM
All normal, Anon.
It's about those last bits of attachment imho.
Knowing what is good for us, even being slightly excited by the liberation from a tough situation, does not mean that there is not a sense of reality biting which is also painful perhaps.

Fwiw usually we hurt again bc we have some lurking expectation of some sort I think. Either of ourselves or of them. Sometimes we don't even know an expectation is there maybe until it hurts. Like realising there is a rose thorn in your finger when you touch something. Something in you sounds as if you feel that you are 'losing' in some way with your plan A when tbh from the cheap seats here it sounds as if you are freeing yourself from what has already been lost....and taking back more control over your own life and future life.

Jmo but you sound as if you are letting those brain monkeys do a bit of a jig. You don't know what your h thinks actually. Or probably what is going on in his life or with ow. You only know why you chose Plan A, that your h is AWOL, how it serves your interests and indeed if you are starting to be ready to take other actions like filing. Perhaps it is as simple as wishing that your h would fight against your wish to move forward unencumbered by these last links....and feeling sad that he is not. Feelings are not facts of course....but I'd gently suggest with love and a hug that it's normal to feel how you feel and that you know from experience that these patches pass.xxx
Title: Re: Roads with Forks and never ending decisions.
Post by: Milly on July 17, 2020, 03:48:06 PM
Anon, choosing plan A was going to be hard. Of course you're going to have sad days like this. Then your H not contacting you, has left you wanting him a little again. It's that push-pull reaction.

I imagine your H is down in the tunnel again. It happened with my H too at some point, where I thought he'd had a couple of little awakenings, was drawing closer, and then poof he was off deeper into the tunnel than ever. Which just means your H is going to do more of the same stuff he's been doing these past years. Nothing has really changed. But it hurts when we are snubbed.

Refocus on why you were choosing plan A. Try not to think of your H and his plans, try to turn your attention only to yourself. Whatever he does should not have an effect your decision.
Title: Roads with Forks and never ending decisions.
Post by: OffRoad on July 17, 2020, 08:01:06 PM

I'm not sure if it's confusion or if I'm just hurt because there is no resistance coming from him suddenly. 
This right here is very difficult to deal with. It's one thing for us to decide for ourselves what we need. It's another when there is no one to say,"No, please don't go. I don't really want to be done."

For the MLC clinger, he gets the safety net of the LBS still "being around". The LBS, on the other hand, never gets to see that the clinging behavior is not for the LBS.  If you were standing with expectations, then you never really detached from the relationship. Expect that this will be difficult. You are still bonded.

Your Plan A is still your plan A, regardless of whatever your H is doing. There is Plan A.1 where you get to stay in a house for an indeterminate amount of time . There is plan A.2 where you don't. (I vote for A.2, but I'm pretty sure  you weren't asking for votes) As long as you are ready for either of those Plan A options, it will help you a lot. It doesn't mean you won't be upset or sad or angry or all of the above, because you probably will.  It's ok to be sad and angry and confused.  This is a sad time.

The H you knew is still lost at the moment. The person you need to take care of is you. One thing at a time.
Title: Roads with Forks and never ending decisions.
Post by: Anon on July 18, 2020, 01:11:46 PM
Fwiw usually we hurt again bc we have some lurking expectation of some sort I think.
Oh yes,, not expectations that he return but expectations that he might feel SOMETHING about the end of our 24 years of knowing each other, best friends, husband/wife.   Does he feel anything other than a slight pang here and there?  I've heard that those who leave abruptly for another person are so distracted by the intense focus on the other person they just don't feel much of anything for us.  At least for now.   All they have done is set aside their grief, but eventually it will erupt and they will be overwhelmed with it.   I'm not sure I believe that but supposedly when normal people end even a bad marriage when both want out, they still experience grief.   One day I really, really hope my h will have to deal with ongoing waves of delayed grief.  I hope he might finally get a glimpse of what he's so casually done to me, and I hope it haunts him for the rest of his life.  That's vindictive but right now all I what to say is - so what, too bad, it's what I feel.   They deserve to experience some of the pain they caused us even if it's just a fraction of what we went through. 
Something in you sounds as if you feel that you are 'losing' in some way with your plan A
I don't know about this.   I know Plan A is what's best and I also want Plan A.   It's a ways off and that bugs me.  I'm guessing 6 months before I can disconnect the remaining ties.   The contact I still have with h does set me back and I know it.   I just can't stand to hear or see the 'happy' act that he's been showing me lately.  It bugs me because once again,, it is obvious to me that he really has not suffered much or at all because our marriage ended.   How is that even possible?
Perhaps it is as simple as wishing that your h would fight against your wish to move forward unencumbered by these last links....and feeling sad that he is not.

Yep, you nailed it.   If he resisted I would think he actually felt something like grief or sadness but he is just way too okay with it all.    I'm grieving the last days of a 24 yr long relationship with someone I loved deeply and he is not shedding even one tear.   If he did, I would feel better and believe that those 24 yrs actually meant something to him once upon a time.   I am pretty angry at myself for all the slack I cut for him thinking the poor guy was suffering this horrible MLC and believing that I could make it all better one day. 

Anon, choosing plan A was going to be hard. Of course you're going to have sad days like this. Then your H not contacting you, has left you wanting him a little again. It's that push-pull reaction.
Yes, I knew it was likely to be hard and it is.   There is still the grief but it's quickly being taken over by a sudden appearance of Anger which has been mostly absent until lately.   This is now the 4th summer I've not fully enjoyed because of the never-ending fallout of his MLC.  And it's the 4th summer he's had lots of summer things going on with ow.   I don't know that I want him even a little bit, but what I do want is for an end to the emotion pain that still lingers, an end to the anger, and an end to every other feeling I'm dealing with right now.   It's a major processing and grieving that I think I've put off because I was a stander.   Standing helped me delay facing what had to be faced.  I could put it off until next week, month, or year and just let him 'twist in the wind' while his MLC played out.  There was nothing to face while I was standing and I liked that a little too much. 

If you were standing with expectations, then you never really detached from the relationship."
"There is Plan A.1 where you get to stay in a house for an indeterminate amount of time . There is plan A.2 where you don't. (I vote for A.2, but I'm pretty sure  you weren't asking for votes)
I also vote for A.2 Offroad - it's the one with no remaining ties and the best chance to one day put this all in the past.   And yeah,,, I can't disagree that while standing I very likely did have expectations and I probably wasn't as detached as I thought either.   It's why this is Plan A is so darn painful to carry out.   The only good thing is the Plan actually leads to the other side where there is freedom, while Plan B just delays and keeps me stuck.

Thanks you guys.   I'm grateful to have a sounding board and even more grateful to hear from people who go through this hell called MLC.   No one really gets it other than another LBS.   I do NOT talk about this stuff to anyone in RL - they would just think I'm crazy to not be fully healed after 3 years.   
Title: Roads with Forks and never ending decisions.
Post by: Anon on July 20, 2020, 07:53:10 PM
I had an interesting conversation with h today.   He was here doing the heavy lifting to get our house staged and ready to sell at the end of the week.   

The jist of the conversation was that he wants a clean break from any legal obligation or any official ties to me.  He wants to start over,,,and clean from any ties.   It's the tail end of a month long 180 from what he has been for the last 3 years which is a close contacter, boomerang, and maybe even a clinging boomerang.   That has all changed in this last month.   He went from a guy who contacted me 2-3 times a week when he wasn't in ow land to not much contact at all.   What's it mean?   I dunno but it makes Option A easier to follow because I don't feel any pull back coming my way from him at all. 

I told him ok,,,, I get that.   I think it also means he doesn't want any connections of any kind, and told him that.   He denied it but not very forcefully.   I was surprised at first, maybe feeling a bit dumped all over again but not in an extreme way like BD.   Our conversation has just been so stilted lately as well.   I would rather not bother talking tbh and will be happy not to after we have severed all legal and personal ties.   

I can't help but wonder if he hasn't entered a new and darker stage of the tunnel.   Where I become truly invisible to him and he goes way deep into MLC.  It's either that or my other theory,,, he is marrying ow as soon as he is a free and unencumbered man with no shackles to his former life with me.   And he's become so quiet and withdrawn with me because he just doesn't want to tell me any of these new plans of his.

Why am I even wondering?  After following him go through MLC (replay) for the last 3 years and seeing changes in him within that time,, well now I'm mostly just curious how this will play out with him even though I will not have any opportunities to really watch after our divorce.   The rest of why I am wondering what's going on?  It does hurt just a wee bit,,, especially if I hear by this time next year he is married to ow. 

At times his MLC really doesn't seem like a MLC.  Many symptoms of course but also many unchecked boxes.   Like,,, he has never tried to return home, nor have I ever had what I would call a touch and go.  If anything, the last 3 years it's just been a gradual decline of any and all love or affection he had for me.   Now it feels like he doesn't even like me.   And that's okay,,, I'm not falling apart about it.   Glad I chose Plan A awhile back.   If I hadn't, this latest 'dark' attitude from him would be more than a little devastating, I think.

Title: Roads with Forks and never ending decisions.
Post by: KeepItTogether on July 21, 2020, 08:51:08 AM

The jist of the conversation was that he wants a clean break from any legal obligation or any official ties to me.  He wants to start over,,,and clean from any ties.   

This is pretty standard out the MLC playbook Anon. Though mine has never articulated this, I can see it in his actions for sure. As you know, my H was very high contact until beginning of June which culminated in him professing his desire to return. The very next day he went low low contact. And eventually nothing. He hasn't been around to see S in weeks, whereas he was here twice a day, playing video games and B-Ball with him before. If that is not the definition of crazy, I don't know what is. Maybe he is recommitting himself to his new life, which I believe they do. Another way to find peace and a way out of their darkness.  It never works but is just another way to escape and avoid, which by now they are masters at.

My H is a full year ahead of yours, but I do recall seeing this withdrawal occur pretty much throughout that entire year (year 3). Also, that followed a pretty massive T&G. A lot of things at play--their own journey through darkness and issues for one. And a needy insecure and controlling OW only exacerbates the issue.

In an earlier post you were lamenting about your H's reaction (or rather non-reaction) to your decision. I felt every bit of that. Even though we don't have too much faith they will be a human being in that scenario, we are in fact human and this is the person we have spent a good part of our lives devoted to. Your H going stoic on you and wanting to speed up the process tells me he wants the pain to stop. And he thinks it will as soon as the paper is signed.  It may. But most likely will not. B/c, well, MLC.

You are so thoughtful and contemplative in your decision making. You do a great job. And you know what you must do to move forward. And are brave enough to do it. But just b/c you made the decision, and there is some relief in and of itself in making the decision, know that there will still be sadness and mourning to come. Because you are such a kind, compassionate, loving and beautiful soul. And also expect he will boomerang right back at you eventually. But now we know what that is all about. Certainly not us.

Keep doing what you are doing my friend. I am so amazed and inspired by you.
Title: Re: Roads with Forks and never ending decisions.
Post by: Milly on July 21, 2020, 02:50:28 PM
Anon, I do believe your H saying he wants this clean break is part of the process. As Kit said, they usually go deeper around this time. My H certainly did, and it was right after a few months of getting closer and him asking to move back home, albeit as a room mate. Your H could marry OW while in the midst of this deeper stage, although most don't. It does seem that when they go into the deeper stage, they have to please the OW more. Whereas up until then, they still had some boundaries with the OW, when this deeper stage comes calling, our Hs turn to jelly. It's possible that as your H got closer and began to think (as Kit's did, too), he spooked himself as he realized that he would have to face his issues, and he's just not ready to so. So the controlling OW turning up right then, manages to draw our Hs right back into the tunnel. The spooky moment is so fresh and hard for the MLCer, that he's willing to do whatever it takes to avoid getting to that place.

I'm so glad you'd opted for plan A before this. There is some comfort in being the one to have made the decision to break away. It still hurts, of course, but at least there is some pride left.

BUt as you say, this cold break your H is asking of you, helps you to move on with your plan A. I like how you find a positive in this new information. Perhaps it's a sign that you are on the right track.
Title: Roads with Forks and never ending decisions.
Post by: Maleficent on July 23, 2020, 06:04:59 AM
Anon, continuing to follow along.  I so appreciate that you have been able to articulate your thoughts on plan A and plan B as I wonder as much about my own options.  Thank you for sharing. 

Mine has spoken about a clean break as well--what I find interesting in your situation is that for someone who wants a clean break, he is still in your presence quite frequently.  If "he did not even like you" he would not be by your side cleaning up and taking care of things.  I think they detach from themselves and from all emotions. I do not understand where their inner pain comes from.  Yet, deep inside, they somehow remember.  But, that is neither here nor there.  Now, it is all about what is best for you--my timeline is similar to yours. 
Title: Roads with Forks and never ending decisions.
Post by: Anon on July 23, 2020, 09:59:56 PM
Milly, KIT, Maleficent....  thank you all for following and commenting.   Kit, yes, I wondered if they go deep and dark before they come out the other side and if that could be what's happening with him now.  Your experience at this stage with your h is interesting.   I think I read somewhere they must go way deep down.  But he does seem to go deep then surface, then deep again, etc.    Maleficent - he is a boomerang,, maybe not quite a clinging boomerang but almost.   His regular presence is the give-away there.   I actually think his push to wrap up all legal things is due to extreme pressure (threats?) from ow who wants him to have nothing to do with me.   He's held her off for years but I think she just wore him out and he agrees so he can get her to leave him alone about it.   Any normal thinking person would question a relationship with someone like this - who seems to endlessly manipulate to get what she wants.   I do wonder if he will actually go through with initiating a divorce.   He's one of those guys who will agree to anything if it's a long way off, but then as it draws closer, they panic and do what they can to get out of what they promised to do.   Milly, as usual your comments from the Veteran section are spot on and I am so glad I'm Option A all the way.   

I seem to have taken another giant leap forward in the detachment department or even indifference department.  I'll try to fill you in.   These last few days have helped me gain more traction with Option A.    Where to begin?

First off, the house is finally back up for sale!  Dropped the price considerably and lets see what happens this time.   My almost xh seems fine with it all for a change.   He has been here a lot this week doing a million things to get the house ready for the photographers that were here earlier today. 

I did touch on this on a previous post, but about a week ago, he was here to do something quick, can’t remember what it was, but I was annoyed.   He is just too weird around me and the tension is so thick you could cut it with a knife,,, or even a dull tool actually.   Why I don’t know but I am sure it’s not me!  Seriously.   All I want is a bit or cordiality while we go through these final things between us, but its been ridiculous actually.   He says almost nothing and when he does speak it’s so unnatural.  Before he left, I very mildly confronted him about it and told him how uncomfortable it is.   We talked a minute or two before he said he just doesn’t want to talk about it.   When I asked why not,,, he said… wait for it,,,, “I just don’t want it to lead into an emotional conversation.   Say what???
I then said, almost laughing,, “do you see me crying”,, “even close to it?”  Then I shook my head in disbelief.   I have no idea why he would even think that unless he’s going back to 2017 or part of 2108 when that may have been a legitimate concern, but that was 2 years ago for crying out loud. 

I’ve seen him several times since then and talked on the phone as well and believe it or not that has completely stopped.   No more weird, “I have to be silent and mysterious” ,,h.  He’s talking to me normally!  Acting normally too.  The tension is gone, thank goodness.  The stuff we had to deal with went so much easier.   We were both relaxed and focused on getting the job done.   

This is the way I would like to end things between us,,, cordially, and with some respect for the years we shared our lives with each other.   This bit on his end about needing to be guarded so I don’t get emotional,,, who the heck does he think he is?   I wanted to tell him that he is not at all the prize I thought he was when I met him so he has no worries now, lol.  I didn’t say it but I should have to bring him back down to earth.

There were several times in the last few days when I saw things, him, our marriage, in a much clearer light than I have for a very long time.   For example (there are many),,, while working on changing a switch to a dimmer switch, and things don’t go smoothly as expected,,,he literally has a firetruck fest with words where every single word he utters for the next 5 minutes is firetruck,, over and over again with great emphasis and obvious anger.   It’s been awhile since I’ve seen that but my immediate thought is thank goodness I am not subject to that anymore!  It’s always been offensive to me and I no longer have to listen to that.

The rants ,,, oh the rants and I don’t miss them either.    One rant was about how he will never, ever, ever,, have another pet again.  Never!   Well we had 2 of them while married and he seemed okay with it then but I’d bet my next pay that his ow hates pets.   Maybe not, but whatever.    So he continues the rant for several minutes and says he wouldn’t even DATE a woman if she had a pet.  No way is he going to have another pet.   (Wow..).   So I said well I probably always will have a pet and I doubt I would date a guy who didn’t like pets.   That actually shut him up,, lol.   

Next rant,,, in casual conversation, covid comes up.   Here we will be on mandatory masks while indoors in public places as of August 1.    Well… that stirred up all kinds of vitriole, about how he hates the phrase ‘the new normal’, and how he is sick of the dots with footsteps showing you where to stand in lineups, and sick of the directional arrows in aisles.   The mask requirement is stupid, and he’s starting to believe the conspiracy theories out there.   LOL.   Oh brother,,I thought, really?    Once again,, so glad I am not subject to this on a regular basis like I was during our marriage.   It’s one of those things that I don’t understand how I tolerated it.

The last rant, and very offensive to me.  I’m sorry for anyone reading this if it’s offensive.   The rant was about muslims, asians, mexicans, basically anyone that has less than white skin. even if they were born in our country.    He rants that the world is a mess partly because of them and their religious politics, complains they are eroding our way of life and what they really want is to take over one day.   I’ve heard infrequent and much milder versions of racist attitudes from him during our marriage but this is new, the conspiracy theories about taking over the world.   During our marriage I called him on holding racist views if not outright calling him a racist.  He would stop then or at least dial it down,  but then unbelievably he would claim he is not at all a racist.    Either way, and once again,,, he is not exactly the prize I thought he was.   How could I have ever thought he was? 

Drugs,,,, my almost xh is addicted to pot,  in the form of shatter, smoked through a vape pen.   Before that it was just smoked in a joint.   It’s been a daily habit of his since he was a teenager.  He's now 64,,, how cool is that?  Not.  I was alarmed at first when I found out about it (before we married), but somehow I made that a non-issue.   He seemed to function quite normally while stoned.   He drives better stoned than I do sober.  He is just so used to functioning under the influence it’s impossible to tell him stoned from normal.   

Over the course of the last 4 days of getting things in order to sell the house,  he has reminded me of some of the more troubling things about him that I tolerated during our marriage.   I’ve had peace from all of them since 2017 and seeing it all again over just a few days is quite jarring.   I ask myself how could that have ever been okay?   Well, it wasn't ever okay and that awareness hit me like a ton of bricks.   Who turned on the lights because I can see so much better than I ever saw before.   Can a person change that quick?  From feeling something to feeling nothing?  Maybe it's temporary? 

Clearly, h is not someone I want in my present life.   He is not a deep thinker on any subject, and thinks a quality relationship is all about lots of good sex.  At least since MLC hit this is what it's all about for him.   Exit me and enter ow.   She is welcome to him and I guess she has the same views about what makes a quality relationship.  Two peas in a pod.    I would love to wrap him up, put a big pretty pink bow on him and present him to her along with 2 matching glasses and a bottle of champagne.   Happy life you two,,, I’m outta here.   

I think the last week solidified a lot for me especially when it comes to not just thinking that Plan A is better, or believing that it’s better,,,, but KNOWING it’s better.    But this is a first for me ,,, he had to tell me he was going to see ow,,, something he has gone to great pains to keep from me.    He is going for 17 days.   A year ago,, heck, even last week,  I would have had some kind of emotional reaction.  Stronger early on but milder more recently.     This time,,,,no emotional reaction.  Nothing.  I just didn't care at all what his plans were or what he was doing.   I just couldn’t care less - amazinga.   If that doesn’t confirm I’m done, I don’t know what will.   

I’m anxious to get the house sold, then the next house sold,, and put him and our marriage behind me once and for all.   I deserve much better than the likes of him and his cheating, ranting, racist ways.   Omg,, she can have him 100 times over.   She deserves him,,, I don’t.    I deserve much better, in fact I already have much better right now because my life is peaceful and I don’t have to share it with him. 

When I first came here and cried, and vented, I got the comforting words that I will be okay whether he returns or doesn’t.    I didn’t have a clue back then how I would ever be okay if he didn’t come back.   I didn’t have a clue for a long time how I would ever be okay, but 3 years later I can honestly say ‘I am okay’.   I also could honestly say I’m much more than okay and I would not trade where I am now to have him back or to go back to that marriage - ever. 

Title: Roads with Forks and never ending decisions.
Post by: 3Boys4Me on July 23, 2020, 10:57:32 PM
Yay for you Anon! Good on you! He doesn’t deserve you.
Title: Roads with Forks and never ending decisions.
Post by: Standing Strong on July 23, 2020, 11:10:34 PM
Wow Anon!!!

You sound simply amazing. While I'm so sorry this happened, you have powered forward!!!

An absolute inspiration  :D

Title: Roads with Forks and never ending decisions.
Post by: Treasur on July 23, 2020, 11:24:39 PM
Yes, sometimes the pendulum of our lens swings doesn't it?
Imho it is important to not let oneself rewrite our own past reality too much....and it's not easy to find the middle ground.
But it is self evidently true for most of us that the person we see in front of us now brings very little that we would want in our lives....that any sane, sensible, healthy person would want tbh....so if ow/om wants that, as you say, let them have it  :) I suspect for a while we all fear that ow/om is getting the person we valued and 'lost', that we are the only ones getting the crappy human. But of course rationally, they are their own common denominator aren't they? They carry their own baggage with them into the world....both their pre-crisis normal baggage and their crisis baggage....which imho is a LOT of baggage  ::) And it isn't logical to think that they are simply magically 'fixed' either by our absence or by ow/om's presence.....all that has changed is the contextual setting of their lives. They will do or not do the work required to be a diamond or stay a bit of chipped glass regardless I imagine.....tbh I think the heart of their running and presumably the shape of their new life is mostly about trying to find a place where it feels ok to be a non-diamond  :)

But we LBS grow into diamonds through the fire I think....and it becomes much easier to distinguish diamonds from zirconium  :)

I'm glad though that the universe decided in a timely fashion to reinforce your Plan A decision, Anon....to help it evolve perhaps from a need to a want bc that has a different kind of energy to it doesn't it? And sometimes you have to clear the ground to sow new seeds don't you?

You're doing good, Anon, keep going  :)
Title: Roads with Forks and never ending decisions.
Post by: Anon on July 24, 2020, 10:01:36 AM
3 Boys, SS, Treasur,,, thank you for the positive words and encouragement.   :)  h flew off early this morning to ow land.  And I am still like,,,whatever,,,makes no difference to me whatever he’s doing anymore.   This really has to be what completely letting go feels like, which is simply awesome.  8)   

Imho it is important to not let oneself rewrite our own past reality too much....and it's not easy to find the middle ground.
Valid point Treasur.   I am observing myself for any tendency to do this and in some respects it’s possible by exaggerating my h’s flaws.   My latest clarity about who he is doesn't feel like rewriting history as much as it feels like letting go of the denial that allowed me to gloss over his deep flaws.   I can look back to the beginning of our relationship and see a lot that I glossed over in order to maintain the relationship.  I made it okay because I enjoyed enough else in the relationship and didn’t want to give that up.   I sold myself out back then by compromising my standards - dating a habitual drug user, a narrow minded person with racist attitudes, and someone who frequently uses the f word because he cannot otherwise express his feelings.    The relationship would never have got off the ground back then had I been more secure in who I was.   I realize my worth today more than I ever did back then when I was more likely to believe I was lucky he wanted me.   Today, I see a chance for a do-over if I so choose.   If there is a next time, my standards will not be compromised.   I’m more than fine on my own and it will take a very high quality human to change my mind about that.  Would I like a relationship eventually?  Yes, I would.   I believe I have a lot to offer even if it’s just a friendship, or romantic friendship.   I have my doubts I will ever want to live with someone again.  I enjoy my own home with just me and my cat too much.   If that ever changes, the new person will love me AND my cat.

I did want to comment a bit about MLC and drug use.   I mentioned my h has been addicted to pot for 49 years - from 15 yrs old to his current 64 yrs old.  He says he is not addicted despite such a long history of heavy use.    Like other mood altering addictions,,, alcohol, gambling, sex, shopping, exercise to name a few,,, an active addiction allows the user to escape the issues within themselves that need to be fixed.   As long as there is an active addiction in play, the user will never face these issues.   I’ll bet that a big majority of MLCers, have an active addiction of some kind and have for a very long time.   The addiction allows the user to avoid facing difficult issues but eventually the endless avoidance blows up into to a MLC.   Without an addiction, it wouldn’t be a MLC but a MLT which is a typical stage of adult development in midlife.   It’s also a pretty painful time and requires deep introspection.   The Replay stage is not present because MLTers are capable of facing issues while MLCers often have a life long history of avoiding issues.   My h said the other day that he still uses and will likely die from it eventually.   His need to avoid his issues within are that strong that he will even risk his life to avoid facing them.   Unless he decides to kick his addiction, he will forever remain in MLC.   Coming through MLC means facing issues.  An active addiction prevents that.   In my h’s case is there any other possible outcome for him than becoming a forever MLCer?   

I added this to my post because it’s another example of me sticking my own head in the sand,,,even before we  married.   I knew and know this about addictions, due to some training years ago for my job.   The users personal development is put on ‘pause’ at the point the addiction takes hold and remains that way until the addiction is overcome.     My h became addicted as a teenager - 15 yrs old.   His emotional and psychological development is stuck at that age.  MLC often takes them back to the time when they first began avoiding which so often is during the teen years.   Once I stopped denying the impact of his addiction on him, I can see his many stunted teenage attitudes, and much immaturity.   I doubt my h will ever again be the person I want in my life going forward.   It just adds to the momentum I have for Option A.   
Title: Roads with Forks and never ending decisions.
Post by: Anon on July 25, 2020, 12:24:24 PM
Well... no surprise... Option A does have it's ups and downs.    Not drastic ones but yesterday and today I am feeling a bit unsettled.  The house is up for sale as of yesterday and there has already been a showing.   I feel this time the house will actually sell.  Unlike last time when it sat on the market for 6 months, only to find a buyer who bailed when the pandemic hit.   I'm sure the unsettled feeling is from realizing once again that our lives really did blow up and stayed blown up and we are actually in the process of disposing of our joint assets.   In the early days, h was sure he would come back after a year or so.   The ow was nobody, but he had to do what he was doing to get her out of his system.   We all know how that usually works out, right?

Another reason for feeling unsettled is that although my immediate future after the house sells is known (I move to the rental house and sell it too), the future beyond is very uncertain.   I'm looking at all the options for what I can afford but still have money in the bank and the options aren't as plentiful as I once thought.   First off, I am eliminating from the options a house/condo in the same neighborhood as I am in now and also the neighboring neighborhood where h bought his condo jointly with ow.   My preference is to live anywhere else but these two areas.   It's not even so much I worry about running into them, but I just associate these areas with a painful time in my life.   Both areas are nice, but I can't help how I feel and I don't want to live here. 

Anyway,,, day by day and one day I will be through to the other side.    I think I am slowly making progress.   Does anyone remember me posting this from March 30?
Before his MLC I was comfortable being in my 'at home' clothes with no make-up.   Could I ever be that comfortable again? 
Haha,, well I have broken through that barrier!  Last week when h was coming over to install the new light fixtures, I was doing a million other things but planned in the back of my mind to leave enough time to shower and make myself look presentable.   Well,, I made great progress on my tasks and decided that I would just keep going and forego the shower.   So,,, that meant,,, no shower,  baggy shorts at least a size too big, and no make-up!  Not even lipstick.  I actually wasn't bothered what he thought.   I think I would have cleaned up a bit and wore proper fitting shorts had it been anyone else coming by ,, but it was only h so it didn't matter.   ;D
To me, that is the most obvious sign ever that I have let go and don't give a rats ass what I look like.   I felt so powerful with no make up,,, haha.   And the shorts I wouldn't have subjected anyone else to seeing them!
Title: Roads with Forks and never ending decisions.
Post by: 3Boys4Me on July 25, 2020, 02:31:54 PM
Hi Anon,
It may seem small, but I think you continuing in with your work, no shower, no makeup, is actually quite significant. It shows a level of comfort in you, yourself as a person. That’s progress! We have to first love ourselves if we are ever really going to reclaim our lives for the good as LBS. make up, clothes, perfectly manicured homes, none of that matters if you can’t be yourself. Happy for you, not surprised that you are experiencing ups and down over your new decision - that will likely continue for awhile, however you sound good, happy even. What sweet relief!!

Big hugs,
Title: Roads with Forks and never ending decisions.
Post by: Anon on September 15, 2020, 11:36:15 AM
It finally happened!  The house is SOLD!  Next step - sell the other house and then it’s all but over.   Final step is the divorce coming in 2021.   H will initiate, not me.  I could but I’d rather delay to keep benefits and beneficiaries in place.   On the other hand,, that’s not exactly a clean break so I may reconsider.

The house sale came rather suddenly.  My h has been reluctant for years to sell, supposedly because he was waiting for property values to improve.  I’ve always had a hunch though, that it was more about keeping this major tie between us in place.    It’s the only thing that made sense really.   He was paying a lot of money monthly to keep the house and any gain from selling would be easily offset by what he paid to keep it. 

Anyway,,, back to the end of June.   I brought up the possibility of selling the house again.  H still didn’t want to.   We decided we would sell the other house and I would basically buy him out and take over all the financial responsibilities.   The catch is he would have to remain on the mortgage in order to keep my payments down.   He has been more than willing to do for me since BD.   I went back and forth a bit on which house I would keep of the two and decided I would stay in the house I have lived in for the last decade or so.   H seemed relieved that this was my decision saying he thought I would be happier in this house than the other one, which is true.   So it was all figured out, sell the other house, buy out h, then the house I’m keeping would be mine.   Except h had to stay on the mortgage - a refinance in my name would have been a very bad move financially and I wouldn’t have done it.    I was mostly happy about the arrangement except for one thing - I still had a tie to him through the mortgage.   I was a bit uneasy about it - not because I thought he would fleece me but because it wasn’t the complete and total clean break I would have preferred.   But okay,,, I love my house and it would be fine so I breathed a sigh of relief that we had this settled.   I could relax and be confident that I would be living here for years or as long as I wanted. 

Two weeks later, a mini bomb - h says he is no longer willing to stay on the mortgage.   Without that I won’t keep either house and h knew that.   I suspected ow was driving the bus on this decision.   An ultimatum - she’s had enough - or he wants to buy another place with her and has to keep his mortgage room free.   I later asked him if that was their plan and he convincingly said it wasn’t as he had no downpayment money (he gets very little of the sale proceeds).   I asked why, then,,, couldn’t he stay on the mortgage so I could stay in the house.   His answer - he just wants a totally clean break, wants to start over.    Hmmm,,, sounds like someone is still finding ways to blame me for his unhappiness.   The fix for that must be the clean break.  Or maybe it’s the ow ultimatum.  idk and it really doesn’t matter but the sudden about face is interesting.   Around this time he was also very quiet, uncommunicative, distant. 

Right away, I got the house ready to sell and it was listed 2 weeks later.  We chose a lower list price to get the house sold quickly and 3 weeks later we had an offer worth considering.   It wasn’t quite up to our bottom line but pretty darn close.   $2500 difference - nothing really.  H wanted that $2500 and refused to budge.   The buyers had to come up another $2500 or no deal.   They buyers said the same - they wouldn’t budge so we lost the deal.   The realtors could not believe it.  I couldn’t believe it, and I’m sure the buyers couldn’t believe it either.   In a buyers market the seller cannot be the one to hold out for $2500 !!   I talked to h the next day and asked if he had regrets about letting it go and he said No.  He also thought it was good that neither one of us wanted to give away the house.    A few days after that the realtor called and said he was going to try again to get the buyers to come up the $2500 but wouldn’t unless he knew we would accept the offer.   We both agreed and the realtor did manage to get the $2500 and a conditional deal was signed.   When this happened, h said something unbelievable:  “I didn’t think either one of us wanted to sell the house.” (my hunch confirmed)  I told him I would have stayed but had no choice without him staying on the mortgage. 

So why did he go through the motions to sell it, hiring a realtor, only to wish it wouldn’t sell?   To convince ow that he was really trying to get the house sold?  If she thought he was holding things up she might have dumped him.   Not only that,,, why didn’t he want to sell the house??  I believe it has something to do with unconsciously not wanting to sever a major tie.   All along he has given me the impression that he never intended his new life to be a permanent.   He had to convince himself, me and anyone else that knows him that his new life is for real otherwise he would have faced some pretty harsh criticism and judgement if he had said he would eventually return when his fling with ow was over.   He actually said as much to me and his sister within 2 weeks of bd… that we would likely get back together after a year or two.   The obvious problem is it quickly becomes a very slippery slope and down they go, deep into the rabbit hole.    They struggle to get out but can’t - too slippery.   There are a number of sayings related to this.

The chains of sin are too light to be felt until they are too heavy to be broken. (Tom Drout)

One leak will sink a ship and one sin will destroy a sinner.  (Paul Bunyan)

Sin will take you farther than you want to go, keep you longer than you want to stay, and cost you more than you ever wanted to pay.

Sin has a diminishing factor to it. It always gives it’s best in the beginning. It never gets better after that … it only gets worse. (Mark Aulson).

Sin will surely find out the sinner. Conscience is one of it’s officers. The consequences of sin lay hold of the sinner. No man can escape from himself.

These sayings are universal to all people, religious or not.   There is something slightly comforting reading them.    These MLCers will one day (or now), suffer for what they’ve done today.   Consequences are inevitable,  consequences always bring well deserved suffering and pain.   Knowing this frees me - I don’t have to do a darn thing to bring about his Karma.    All I need to do is move forward knowing the consequences must be faced one day along with the suffering.   

I have no animosity toward my h.   I hope he one day can face his failures, deal with them, and be restored.   I don’t hate ow either.   Quite possible she hates me, but I refuse to hate her.   She could only do what she did with a willing participant.   Too bad her willing participant is a broken man, with a history of adultery with 2 of his wives,  a history of abandonment and betrayal to a wife that didn’t deserve it, a history of showing in his life that he comes first, and will do whatever he must to get it.   He is the one that matters in his life above all others.   I have zero interest in a man like this.   How broken must the ow be,, for a guy like this to be seen as a suitable partner?   And for h?  His willing participant is a broken woman of equally poor character, with long standing, deep psychological issues.  I hope somehow these two can figure out where they went so wrong in life or they are doomed to endlessly wonder why things never really turn out for them.   The answers are staring back at them from the mirror but they are incapable of 'seeing' what so many others see clearly.   It's truly a heart-breaking tragedy.   Locked in a death grip with each other, there will never be any resolution or peace.   I feel like the lucky one that got away.   I look back and view my life then as sub-par to my life now.   If anything, I feel compassion for them.   I am free, and happy, and optimistic about the future.  Those two more likely feel trapped than optimistic.  My h believes his gf is a sociopath with no empathy.   She feels he is a worthless loser.   How could any optimism for the future arise from that? 

In the meantime, I am in as good a place as I ever have been.   I am finding myself, what I like and don’t like and who I like to spend time with.   I never knew what a social being I am.   It’s like I’ve emerged from a shell I didn’t know I was in.   My business is more than booming, it’s swamping me at times.    It has been a challenge to find single friends at my age.   Most of my friends are married or partnered which makes them hit and miss when it comes to having someone available to do things with any regularity.  I missed getting out for dinner, or walks, going to the pub, and all those things that I found enjoyable before bd.    So,, about 10 weeks ago I started a meetup for older women, single divorced, separated or widowed.    The response has been overwhelming.   There are now 45 members and multiple events scheduled every week - dinners, brunch, lunch, pub nights, walks, hikes, book club, morning coffee gatherings.   I won’t lie, it’s a lot of work and time, but it’s so rewarding.  Many of these women are isolated, depressed, and lonely and have no idea how to build a social life at their age even if they had the energy and motivation to do so.   I’ve met wonderful people and we all seem so happy to have met each other.   So now I have lots to do!   I can’t go to everything and have to pick and choose otherwise I would be broke and fat (I love the dining events).   I have recruited 2 other members to take over organizing repeating events and a 3rd one will get going once  cultural events open up as Covid abates.   

Between my swamped business, my social group, and now I’m packing my house for a smooth move,, I find I have a busy and very satisfying life.   I am not worried about me going forward at all.   I’m sorry that I can’t say the same for my almost xh.   I do worry but in a detached way.   I am happy to escape the MLC quicksand.  I don’t miss the ruminating, weeping, monkey-braining or anything else MLC.   Am I totally out of the woods?   I hope so.  But,,, I honestly can’t say with certainty what I would do if h popped up one day, clearly back to himself, MLC behind him,,, and wanting to try again.   I will not ponder this, or wish for it, but I am aware that I might be slightly weak if this happened down the road.   

I have a few weeks left before moving day.   I am going through some grief in packing up, memories of happier times, grieving anew the loss my h and marriage.   Or, maybe it’s just me experiencing letting go to the full extent.   I will miss my home and the peaceful yard.   My cat has not known any other home and I wonder how he will adjust (lol).    Unusually, I haven’t heard a peep from h for the last 2 weeks.   He may be moving into a different head space now that the big tie is severed.   

Title: Roads with Forks and never ending decisions.
Post by: KeepItTogether on September 15, 2020, 03:15:23 PM
Wow Anon--so much good stuff in there. I am loving that your business is booming and you are getting out and about. I believe social interaction helps a lot with combating the blues. And look who is the most popular group??? Can't say I am at all surprised--I loved hanging out with you in Tuscany. You will attract kind compassionate souls b/c that is who you are.  Which is probably why H cannot be around you--misery loves company. And he and OW seem to be most miserable. So sad and such a waste but they need to learn that lesson themselves. Not your job.

Congrats on the sale of the house. That will be one step forward that will propel you even further into your healing process, which you seem to be embracing wholeheartedly. I recently went through a purging process too. Not even close to the scale you will be with an entire house. But it definitely had me re-living a few things.  And although I did grieve the marriage a little more, it felt very empowering.  I do love a good purge though. 

I am sure the next few weeks will be very cathartic for you. And I wouldn't be surprised if your clinger H pokes his head out a little more once he realizes what "cutting all ties" actually means. And that even when this particular wish is granted, he still may not feel at peace. How could he after all of the damage and destruction? There is always a reckoning.

Sin will take you farther than you want to go, keep you longer than you want to stay, and cost you more than you ever wanted to pay.

Wow--this one seems to be the battle cry for all MLCers.  Too bad many don't learn this lesson until it is too late. You sound pretty great my friend!  I'll be thinking of you over the next few weeks as you prepare for your next adventure!

Title: Roads with Forks and never ending decisions.
Post by: xyzcf on September 15, 2020, 06:52:48 PM
I loved reading your post Anon. You go girl!

I belonged to a neighborhood group (mostly women) that met every Wed for dinner at various restaurants but that has stopped since COVID.

My friends too are married and like you, they really are good people but they have their own lives.

Good luck...I stayed in our home and I truly love it. Although I give serious consideration to moving back to Canada where my family lives, this has been my home since 2005 and it's academic really for I cannot go to Canada until the borders open so trying to buy a house up there would not work for me.

I too am grateful that I am the LBSer... I have nothing to regret other than the damage this experience has done to me.

Keep letting us know how things progress.
Title: Roads with Forks and never ending decisions.
Post by: Treasur on September 16, 2020, 12:07:47 AM
“I didn’t think either one of us wanted to sell the house.”
Not at all surprised he said that, Anon. Or that he did a sudden back flip on the previous agreement bc, well, it's what MLCers do isn't it? I suspect your  xh will find that this 'clean break' will not produce his magic happy either.....but I think it will be nothing but good for you. So, a little bit of good and bad karma together  :)

And yes, as KIT says, that quote seems to be how life eventually works....... ::)

You sound super-fab.  :)
And your woman's group made me muse on whether it is time for me to join or start something similar here (albeit Covid-ish right now  :) ). Which I absolutely did not have the oomph to do even six months ago but do now. Which helped me see how different a place i am in now than i was. Healing seems to go through stages doesn't it? Some intentional effort like digging in mud lol, but some seems to slide up unnoticed.

So are you moving to the other house which will now be yours alone? Or somewhere else? How is it different from the old house? And the cat? Well, I have moved before with cats....there is a joke that they care more often about a favourite chair than a favourite human lol....but I have always found after a few days, taking it slow so they feel in control of a safe place, cats adapt pretty quickly. In fact Louis the Magnificat turned from a London street cat into a rabbit-chasing country cat. And Grace the Aloof turned into a spider-eating cat who pops out of the kitchen window to visit most of my neighbours children lol. Not unlike we LBS perhaps....we find out feet (paws) as long as we feel we have a safe base to set out from  :)

That packing up/clearing out thing normally prods a few tender spots though doesn't it? Normal. I have been doing some here but it is also interesting to observe that my emotions are not the same as they used to be entirely. I think for quite a while my xh still felt like my h in my head, albeit a metaphorically dead h, and I sometimes liked being able to look at an old favourite photo of him much as I do with my parents. But now it felt....idk, slightly invasive? As if even the old h simply had no place on the shelf of my current life looking at it lol. And yet I also felt sad at what was destroyed apparently so lightly bc I knew that to me it felt like a good, honest, valuable thing. What's that phrase about the past being a foreign country? It felt a bit like that...... which seems normal, healthy and a sign of healing to me, a sign that my eyes are up and forwards not looking over my shoulder as I did for so long. I suspect you will find that moving will be part of that for you, a new vista from your metaphorical and real new window  :)
Title: Re: Roads with Forks and never ending decisions.
Post by: Milly on September 16, 2020, 12:54:32 AM
Anon, what wonderful news about the house! I'm so pleased for you, it must be such a relief to have it sold and done with. Sometimes just coming to the decision is so tiring in itself. I'm glad you are not tied to your H for his mortgage name, that would prevent you from moving on, and as he's shown, there is always the chance that he would change his mind and upturn your life again. Yes, do tell us where you will be living next, what are your plans?

Love, love the sound of your single women meeting group. Sounds like such fun. Brilliant idea, but not surprised you came up with it. On the Tuscany trip we would say that Anon should be a travel app and that everyone should have an Anon, as she is so organized, comes up with ideas and all possible outcomes, and can count really well.

I wish you a smooth move out of your home and many fun days with your new friends and all the activities. x
Title: Re: Roads with Forks and never ending decisions.
Post by: CheerHeart on September 16, 2020, 03:58:55 PM
Anon, you sound AMAZING. You sound like a free woman. Like a weight has been lifted off you. It's coming through your words.

Just, WOW.
Title: Roads with Forks and never ending decisions.
Post by: Anon on October 24, 2020, 04:17:11 PM
The post-moving update.  It's a bit whiney, venting, etc.  I post a positive one later.  I finally sold the house!!  New owners moved in last week and I am now in our other house.   I was planning on selling this 2nd house right away too, but that is on hold for now.   I am nowhere near ready to get everything organized and tidied up for showings right away.   I don’t think I would survive another move so soon after the first one.  (more about that later).   Not only that, I am finding that I like this house more than I thought I would and I’m considering buying out my h and staying here.   Small catch,,, h would have to stay on the mortgage which makes it a very affordable option.  I could do it on my own but it would be financially a terrible decision.    And oddly enough, he has reversed himself again and now says he’s fine staying on the mtg.  He’s also saying he doesn’t want the buy out but would prefer to stay invested.   Pros and cons to that too.   The Pros,,, we would split the cost of home improvements and this house does need more than a few - about $30k worth.   The Cons,,,he doesn’t fully exit my life.   So I’m pondering this new set of circumstances and taking some time deciding.

On to the moving week.   I had several days overlap before the movers came for the big stuff so I did as much as I could on my own with the little stuff.   Multiple trips and I got all that I wanted over there except for a few odds and ends and things I needed for cleaning.   My h came by and dismantled some heavy duty storage shelves and got them over to the new house with lots of time to reassemble before the movers came.  Around this time, he told me he was going to be away for the last week before giving up possession.   As usual I’m left to look after all that needed to be done before new owners arrived.    There were some urgent things that had to be done now that he wasn’t going to be here.  Like replace the thermostat and unplug the bathroom sink which was draining a drop at a time and get those shelves put up so I could get the storage items on them.   

The last day before he leaves to visit ow land, these things are still undone.   He assumed he could do it all that night but in the end he ran out of time and the only thing that got done was putting up the shelves. The thermostat and the bathroom sink didn’t get done.   I figured I could do them but was so annoyed because it felt like I was doing a huge majority of the work to move. 

So off he goes to schmoopieville.   The movers arrive, they take the big stuff and a few boxes and put everything down in the new house.  It was a full day’s effort and at the end, I can barely move through the house with my stuff everywhere.  I also couldn’t find anything once I put it down somewhere.  It just got lost in the stuff.   I guess I’d better get at it pretty quick but I have to go over to the other house and remove the rest of the stuff and clean it up first.    I had several not great things to do including running a car full of stuff to the landfill, changing light bulbs, stapling up fallen vapour barrier plastic, removing old wire from the rafters for a gadget we had.   It was a full 3 days doing these miscellaneous things.   All perfect tasks for h if he had been here.   I started cleaning on the 4th day and finished at midday on the 6th day.   New owners had their walkthrough a few hours after that.   The house wasn’t bad for cleaning but it did have to be meticulous and I spent time getting it right, including removing the baseboard vents to clean them.   Then,,,so they would dry quick, I put them in the warming drawer of the oven and forgot about them.  They warped and were on the way to melting so I had to hunt down replacements and wouldn’t you know it the size I needed was hard to find.  Would have been nice to have a second person helping who could have done that, but it was just me so I dropped everything and went in search of new vents.  At the end of each day I just fell into bed exhausted and got up (with effort) the next morning and got over to finish at the old house.   I finally had one day where I could just clean without having to run off to get something to finish up.   I cleaned and fixed and got everything ready for a solid 11 hours that day.   The next day was moving the last of things out of the garage, including the ridiculously heavy and awkward lawn mower, fertilizer spreader, empty bins, most of the cleaning stuff, garden tools, ladders.  That was worth a few trips, including  to the storage locker I had rented 25 minutes out of town.   That was an easy day compared to the day before.   By this time I don’t know what I’m feeling except it sure wasn’t anything resembling friendly feelings toward h for leaving this massive job for me to do alone.   This would have been a rough week with 2 people.  I became more upset as the week went by just thinking how incredibly horrible and selfish to fly off to see ow and leave this to me - after the 13 years in the house it was just so unfair.   He barely lifted a finger to do anything so for him it was not at all a difficult week.   

6 days later it’s all done and I close the door on the house for the last time and just broke down.  From exhaustion, from being emotionally drained, from suppressed feelings about leaving the house I loved, from intense anger at h for such horrible insensitivity, and grief about all that’s happened over the last 3.5 years since BD.  I felt a bit physically sick.   It was almost as bad as BD.   

I get over to my new house 6 days after I moved in, and the mess that was there on Day 1 is still the same mess on Day 6.   I hadn’t had a minute to work on anything except make my bed, so it stayed as it was and now I had to face it.   

It’s now 9 days later and things are much better but still a fair bit to do.   The bathroom sink is still plugged.  I tried to remove the p trap myself but it wouldn’t budge.   It would have to wait for h to return to do it.   Same with the thermostat.   In the meantime, very cold weather moved in so to get heat, I would push the 3 wires together and when it was warm or too warm I would separate the wires to stop the furnace.  During this night I slept with a mini heater and an extra quilt and was good as long as I stayed in bed.   

So h finally comes back, comes by 3 days later, removes the p trap and the problem is actually above the p trap but everything is pretty gross so he asked me to pick up new plumbing parts and he would install them.   I got a few things but wondered why he didn’t offer to pick them up.   Well,,, he had just moved into his new condo and had things to do there.   What a joke.   Then this morning he calls and wants to know what I still need.   Then he says he will be by later or in the next few days because the week after he is gone again to see ow.   I wondered why he was going to see her instead of her coming to see him to see the new condo and he said,,, well, she’s here now.   

I told him to just leave it and not bother and that I would get it looked after.   It just disturbed me that he would be here fixing stuff while a few kms away, she would be waiting for him back at the condo.  So I told him not to bother.   He objected and asked why because it didn’t matter.   All I said was it’s just how I feel.   I’d rather not see or talk to you when she is here and I don’t know why I feel that way but only that I do.    tbh, I think my feelings have more to do with her than him.   If it was a different gf than bd gf I would probably be fine.  Was it an over reaction?  Probably, but I don’t care and I’m not going to ponder it anymore. 

So here I am, 9 days later still with no use of the bedroom bathroom and still pushing wires together for heat.   I’ve hired a guy to do this work along with other stuff that has to be done anyway and I’ll tackle the thermostat myself.   If I can handle the huge move and clean-up on my own I sure don’t need him to do anything else and the reliance stops completely right now. 

Sorry for such a long update but there are a few other tidbits:
h and ow bought their condo together but in the end it went into h’s name on title and mtg.   He needed some of the equity on this house to come up with his share of the remaining dp.   I asked him why he didn’t just borrow it from ow.   Answer:  she doesn’t know he has no money.

h was helping my downstairs tenant set up her bed railings after moving in.   While doing that he said to her:   I feel very bad about what I did (at bd), but don’t know what to do now except keep moving forward with what I’ve got.   
To me, a bit later… I’m really sorry about all of this Anon.  I’m sorry it all turned out this way.   I didn’t react but just said - I’m not sorry.  I meant it too.   He did me a favor.  And why does he keep bringing up how sorry he is every so often.   Years later the guilt is eating him up as I suspected it would.  I don’t need to hear it anymore so he can stop,,, but he doesn’t. 

Okay, I’m done with the negative update.   I have a much more positive update in me but not today.  Heading out to dinner with friends soon. 
Title: Roads with Forks and never ending decisions.
Post by: Treasur on October 25, 2020, 12:07:47 AM
You know that 'hangry' thing we talk about with kids? I suspect you are emotionally,physically and mentally exhausted right down to your bones. So how wise of you to see that this is not the time to make big decisions that you don't have to make yet.....

I suspect that when your normal non-exhausted service is resumed, you will find the answer to what you should or shouldn't do in this very post you made. And imho some money carries too high a price. Jmo.
And is your h now legally your xh? If so, then tbh, what he wants or doesn't is irrelevant really isn't it?

In the crappy years, I cleared two homes, my parents and ours, and moved myself twice. My then h's practical contribution to that was absolutely zero; in fact, iirc he did a few things that made it more difficult. I remember feeling more tired than I have ever felt....in fact, I recall a couple of days sleeping with my clothes on bc I was too tired to remove them and sleeping on one half of a bed while the other half was full of stuff to be packed up. So, kudos to you for getting it done and a reminder that you won't feel like this for much longer.
Title: Roads with Forks and never ending decisions.
Post by: Evermore on October 25, 2020, 01:58:00 PM
How tiring is moving! Physically and mentally just so draining. Can completely understand why you might want to settle for a while before your next move.

I moved into a jointly owned house (that we built in 2017/8) a bit over a year ago. It’s right next door to the house we had shared for 11 years. We sold that other house when I moved here. I thought it would be too hard to live here. I thought seeing the new lady that bought MY house driving past all the time, mowing MY lawn and keeping her horse in MY stables/paddocks etc etc would just be too hard. But surprisingly I’ve been ok. And I really like this little house. I’m in the process of putting the mortgage in my name only and I’m going to stay. The pretty garden and space I’ve created gives me some peace and the comfort that I haven’t lost ALL the things I built/created over the last 25 years.

I hope whatever you decide it brings you peace and allows you to keep moving forward, wherever that leads you.
Title: Re: Roads with Forks and never ending decisions.
Post by: Milly on October 25, 2020, 05:04:53 PM
Anon, I'm so pleased to hear your update, even though you've just been through a monumental move. I moved again in September from the fairly house I loved that you stayed at, and I thought I was going to have a nervous breakdown, just reading your description of your move brought back memories of mine, but yours was so much bigger. All I can say is well done you.

Your H was useless. I'm not surprised you resent the fact that he went off conveniently the last few days before move out to be with OW. How absolutely selfish, inconsiderate, and hurtful. I'm not surprised you don't want his help with anything any more and would rather pay for someone to finish off the final stuff. I feel like that too at the moment.

Onto the positives I see from the cheap seats. You sold your home which was becoming such a burden. That's fantastic. You quite like your second home, isn't that great? This is unexpected which is a lovely surprise. Wouldn't that be a big problem solved if you do wish to stay in this home and can find a way to do so. I hope this for you.

I can just imagine you in bed with boxes everywhere reminding you of how much you have to do. I would like to turn this into a positive. I remember how this time of year tends to get you down. With Covid closing us in, there's even more gloom ahead for so many. But having this project to deal with, undoing boxes and setting up your home in your own personal style, could keep you busy enough and creative enough to avoid the down time that autumn usually creates.

Looking forward to hearing the rest of your update. Sending big hugs and a giant well done. x
Title: Roads with Forks and never ending decisions.
Post by: PJ Will Be OK on October 25, 2020, 06:03:25 PM
Moving is exhausting. I just went through it myself and the packing and fixing things and moving without help from my xw was exasperating. Just so tiring. Anger is a rational response to the unfairness of it all. But once you catch up on rest and start enjoying your new life, I hope you'll feel good about what you've just accomplished.
Title: Roads with Forks and never ending decisions.
Post by: Anon on October 25, 2020, 09:26:26 PM
Treasur, Evermore, Milly, PJ,,,, thank you all for posting a reply.  There is something so comforting about talking here about our lives and the challenges in them.   No one here would discount my hurt, or anger, or any feelings.  Instead I receive complete acceptance, understanding, and fear comfort.   

I’ve been more absent than present lately.  I wish I posted more on my own thread and on your threads.   Once life returns to some semblance of normal I hope to be here as often as I once was.   I’m making progress with the return to normal.  I unpacked another room,,,the workout room, file cabinet room and the cat litter room.  All together in one room.   I am getting things done finally!   

This house is fine but I do miss my old house.   Last night on my way home from dinner I turned down my street, and as I approached my house I reached for the garage remote to open the garage door.   It wasn’t in its usual spot and I wondered where the heck it was.   I was almost at my driveway before I realized it wasn’t my driveway but it used to be my driveway until about 10 days ago.   Once aware, I laughed at my absent-mindedness but by the time I turned off the street I was in tears, full on sobbing actually at losing that house even though the current house is fine.   Well sort of fine.  The living arrangement with my ‘tenant’ in the old house was truly a landlord tenant relationship.  I could go for days and not see her.  The lower level was very private for her and for me.  This house,,not so much.   Unlike the old house she needs upstairs into my space for the fridge and the dishwasher.  She cooks down there and keeps to herself for the most part but it feels more like a roommate situation here than a landlord tenant situation.   Her living room is right below my living room and the stairway is open so we can both hear what’s going on in each other’s space.  Not great.   So,,, will I stay or sell?  I’m taking the next 6 months to figure that out.   By then I should know if this setup is workable or not.   I will also know if my h is going to be a pain as a joint owner.    From now on, there is no reason for him to be around here and no reason for him to contact me unless we are going to sell the house.   And if that happens I’ll just buy him out and say bye-bye for good.  Generally he’s been more than useless so this will be a relief.   

On the positive side, I’ve been feeling great for months now, except for the move and that has almost passed.  The women’s group I started in July has been a God-send for me and some of the members too.  We are an older group that often feels out of place as a single, or feels like they are the third wheel when joining married friends.   I’ve had the great pleasure of hearing people repeated say they love our group and thank goodness they have somewhere to go to be with other single and older women.  I started the group thinking if I’m looking for things to do without bugging my married friends then surely there are more single people out there that feel the same.  And there are!  Women are alone in later years without wanting to be but don’t always know what to do to change things.   The group started with one (me) and has grown to 50 members in just over 3 months.   I now have 3 event coordinators so I can relax a bit.   There are events 3 - 4 times a week, urban walks, hikes, zoo trips, dinner, pub night, just coffee, lunch, and brunch, book club, and an art show soon.   Most events fill up very quickly too.   We just had a Thanksgiving dinner at a fancy steak place, and coming up is something special for Christmas and New Years.  On holiday times, no one should be alone unless they want to be alone.  Or at other times either.    Side friendships have formed including a couple of my own.   It’s been a real positive and rewarding experience.  It also keeps me very busy - attending events, or scheduling events.  Good thing I enjoy it and thank goodness for the other volunteers who have stepped up to share responsibilities with me.   

Back to your comments.  Treasur, you are so right that now is not the time for big decisions.   I plan to wait several months until the dust falls before I make even medium decisions.   Maybe.  I will know when I’m ready but I’m not forcing it.   As for h, he is still h and not xh.  Nothing is happening in that respect but I expect in the New Year ow will be on his case once again and pressuring him to live up to his promise.  This will be the 3rd year now that he’s promised to divorce me and when he doesn’t deliver his life is practically at stake.   Will he this next year?  My guess is no. 

Evermore, PJ, Milly,,, we are all recent movees it sounds like and thanks for enpathizing with me that moving is never easy and is always exhausting especially when your once trusted partner leaves everything to us .   And PJ,,thanks for sharing how angry you were at your xw for doing the same rotten thing to you..  Must be an MLC thing and why LBS’s relate so well to this mistreatment. 

Milly,,, aww, your adorable house and garden is gone and big hugs back at you for what you’ve been though.  I found it easy to move until it was all over and done, then it hurt bad.  I know you loved your perfect house and garden and I know how much it would have hurt you to give it up.  At least we are the sane, stable and strong lbs and will be just fine in time.   As far as the new house,,,or new old house,, it’s fine but would be perfect if I could be here on my own without the tenant/roommate.  It feels a bit cramped after being in the bigger house but really,,, no complaints,  I’m fortunate to have what I have and you are right,,,the upkeep of the other was was quite a burden and it will be a breeze here in comparison. 

So,,things are progressing and I’m still going forward Plan A and a peaceful life beyond MLC.  I have it now for the most part and when I don’t it’s because of some MLC nonsense coming from h.   He started as a clinging boomerang and is still a boomerang but a lot less clingy these days.   Maybe he will keep going and eventually become a vanisher and that wouldn’t be so bad for me.

it’s late here so good-night and god bless.   


Title: Roads with Forks and never ending decisions.
Post by: UrsaMajor on October 26, 2020, 04:26:57 AM

I can add my hat in the "just finished moving" ring. I finally turned over my rented flat back to the Landlord at the beginning of the month so I know what a pain the whole moving situation is. I ended up having to hire a company to get rid of truck loads of stuff that I could simply not move with me, like the kids'rooms, etc., since they already had furniture where I moved to....

Between COVID, moving and work, I was just shattered..... 
Title: Re: Roads with Forks and never ending decisions.
Post by: Milly on October 26, 2020, 02:50:03 PM
Anon, this group you've formed for single women in just 3 months is awesome. I wish there was someone like you here where I am. You are such a much needed App! Your group and events sound so cosy. Love that you make sure that holidays are covered so that no one has to be alone if they don't want to. I looove your group. What a brilliant idea you had.

I was thinking last night that it would be great if there were a site for LBSes (but could be also for single women) to reach out to each other and help each other. For example, someone has a house they can't afford on their own, and another LBS doesn't have anywhere to live. Some rent from the one LBS could help the other LBS keep her home until she is financially more stable. I say LBS because we trust each other and have so much in common that sharing a living space might not be hard. This is just one example, but it could also be useful for seeking employment. I bet some LBSes need paid help of some kind, whether at home or in the office they own or run. If they could choose another LBS, they would. We just don't know if there are any LBSes in our vicinity.

Anyway, your capacity to resolve and create really inspires me. Wish you lived closer.x
Title: Roads with Forks and never ending decisions.
Post by: Anon on October 28, 2020, 01:11:27 PM
Hi Milly - thanks for your encouraging comments! 

I was thinking last night that it would be great if there were a site for LBSes (but could be also for single women) to reach out to each other and help each other.
I find this sort of thing is happening in the group naturally.   There are several members that are probable LBS's.   Their situation ticks the right boxes and support comes naturally through conversation with other members.   One of the earlier events was a walk in a large wooded park in our city.  There were 3 of us.   One woman was a brand new lbs of about a week and was pretty raw.  The other woman has been a lbs for about 8 yrs but has no interest or plans to reconcile.   Then me,,, right in the middle.  It was an interesting walk, but it brought back some painful memories for the woman who was at 8 years out.   I think this will happen with women who share commonalities, like finding someone to travel with, or reduce expenses by sharing accommodation, etc.

Wish you lived closer.
   So do I Milly!  I would move there if I could. 
Title: Re: Roads with Forks and never ending decisions.
Post by: Milly on October 28, 2020, 04:08:48 PM
Anon, I'm sure it was a great walk for the three of you. I find such comfort coming here and being able to share with people who absolutely get it. Doesn't mean we're still looking to be told our Hs are coming back, just that now and again we need to talk and let things out, but people in RL don't understand, or are scared to hear our stuff in case we get upset, so the people we can really talk to are limited.

Well done for creating this group and selling your house, moving out of it, and making your second house your home. Do you have a cat with you?
Title: Roads with Forks and never ending decisions.
Post by: KeepItTogether on October 28, 2020, 06:47:28 PM
Anon you really are the essence of strength. The way you powered through all the house stuff—amazing. And I get it. My H would have done the same thing....you know, if he were speaking to me presently lol. He’s super good at that disappearing act, especially when there is work to be done. I do believe tho that all this “crap” we go through is teeing us up for some really great rewards. But truly the reward now is the authenticity we live our lives and the growth we experience. We aren’t flitting through this stuff, putting it on the back burner. We are dealing with it head on. Some day these mlcers will deal with it too—it’s inevitable. But I think so many of us will be loooooooong gone.

Love the women’s group idea. You are so awesome to do that. The joy you’ve brought to all those women takes my breath away. I hope you know what a treasure you are.

I cannot wait until we meet again my friend! I had the time of my life in Tuscany. We need a repeat!
Title: Roads with Forks and never ending decisions.
Post by: Anon on October 29, 2020, 08:06:16 PM
Aww KIT - I can't wait to meet again too.   Repeat coming up.... one day.   :-\

Thanks for your glowing compliments  ::).  It always feels great but I do think you project a bit of your own fabulousness onto others.   You sound really strong KIT.  Your comments about the MLCer are dead on, as usual. 

Milly,,, oh yes, I still have a cat and he's wonderful.  My other cat that went missing when I was in Tuscany has never returned.   :'(
Title: Roads with Forks and never ending decisions.
Post by: 5hilmerton on November 06, 2020, 07:25:23 PM
Following your journey.

Title: Roads with Forks and never ending decisions.
Post by: Anon on November 26, 2020, 07:24:19 PM
Confession,, and I am shocked by it.   

It has been wonderful living life these last few weeks with limited contact with him or any expectations from him either.   I am definitely calmer, grounded, happy and all other good things when h is far away in my thoughts or in my RL.  I  knew there were one or two more times I would have to be in his presence for a short time, but since my move, I have had great comfort that very soon I will no longer have to see him at all,,, for any reason, and I can't wait.   Not because it hurts to see him but because I just don't like him or anyone else who is like him.   

Then tonight he calls and is free to come by in the morning to do the few things that are left in the house to do that I can't do.   Half the plugs in the kitchen don't work and he is an electrician and won't charge me so he gets the job.   He is also picking up some of our furniture that I can't use in my new residence but he can use in his.  Also,, he will do a few very minor favors, like helping me reposition some super heavy furniture that I can't possibly move on my own.   He will be here maybe 15 min. and then there will be no reason to have any contact with him for the foreseeable future and I'm very much looking forward to that. 

But tonight when he called and said he was coming by tomorrow I was fine while on the phone with him but when I hung up I reacted.    It feels like a PTSD reaction tbh and I thought I was one of those lbs who escaped PTSD.   Now I wonder.  It's wasn't a particularly strong reaction but a reaction to be sure and it mostly has to do with being in the company of such a scumbag.  A person who coldly, callously, and brutally murdered me emotionally and psychologically.   Someone who could actually DO something like this intentionally.  Ah, I wish I didn't have to recall those early days because I am transported back to those days and feel those emotions all over again.  What is maddening is this:  I no longer love this man, nor do I want a reconciled marriage (gag), and I no longer want to feel anything except nothing,,, when it comes to him.   I crave neutral emotions so bad I could cry every time I'm aware I don't have it.  It's not love I feel, but disgust, disdain, strong dislike and an urge to run to the loo and spew my stomach contents into the toilet bowl.   I have not ever done this but the urge was strong in the early days/years.  And all this because my emotional devastation occured not by an unfortunate accident but intentionally.  I couldn't imagine this in a million years.   So stupid and so duped.  How do I get past this? Am I actually detached like I thought I was?   I can't forget the details of those early couple of years,,, he doesn't deserve for me to forget he did this.  And almost as bad, if not as bad,, is that he is oblivious.   He is so unaware of what he's done and how horrible it has been for me.  Clueless.   I have no respect for anyone who is capable of intentionally causing such pain even if they are clueless.   So where did all this stuff come from after being dormant for awhile? 

Watching the news a bit earlier, there was a segment with a man who lost his much loved wife in an avalanche last year.  He survived, she didn't.   He was and is still heartbroken and his pain was obvious in the segment.  He even talked about the painful, complex feelings he had that were so much like what a LBS endures.   He suffered from PTSD soon after her death as it came about it such an unexpected and tragic way.  One minute all is well, she is fully alive, and all is right in his world....and the next minute, she is gone.   He was devastated and still is.  He talked about his endless pain said his grief at her loss is as powerful as his love for her.  He lost the most important person in his life in a very sudden and unexpected way.   I was more than a little emotional watching it.   Too close to home and there I was, overwhelmed with his story and mine too but the differences in circumstances are staggering.    I haven't relived the pain of those early days like I did tonight.   And I am horrified that what happened to my life was an intentional act by a heartless, cruel, selfish, entitled lowlife and what an ugly way for my delusional love story to end, unlike the man who on the news who deeply loved his wife and lost her.   His hurt is so real as ours is, but he is not left with any ugliness like LBS's are.  I feel for that man, but I am furious at my h and all those who visit this unspeakable horror on unsuspecting and loyal spouses.   

Thanks for reading... I needed to get that out.   
Title: Roads with Forks and never ending decisions.
Post by: Treasur on November 26, 2020, 11:24:51 PM
Better out than in, my friend  :)

Fwiw, I have come to believe that strong reactions are like road signs. They can be useful either as a warning or as a confirming reminder.
And there is a bit of a squiggly line between being neutral about our ex/spouses and being neutral in our emotions writ large.
And that, sometimes, we feel the trauma residue when we are ready or strong enough to feel it, when we are not overwhelmed by other stuff. You seem to feel a kind of revulsion....which led to a physical feeling of wanting to be sick....which of course is our bodies way of getting rid of something harmful or poisonous to us.

So imho, respect the reaction and let it tell you what it is trying to tell you without judging it or yourself perhaps?
Title: Re: Roads with Forks and never ending decisions.
Post by: Songanddance on November 27, 2020, 01:29:45 AM
Agree with Treasur

I would also ask now you have had that trigger effect or shock - why would you give him the "jobs" that need doing?
  I appreciate no cost but is it worth your sanity and emotional capabilities or do you think that by seeing him it will finally expunge those feelings?

I think all LBSers undergo some form of PTSD.  The shock of BD is traumatic and some LBSers are able to move forward quickly and some struggle to put one foot in front of the other.   The sheer aggro of MLC causes stress which, as NAS so brilliantly put it, is Someone trying to repair every situation Solo.

I am so pleased for you that you have found peace in your new place and I am also glad that you are having these feelings because they're probably helpful on the road to creating and maintaining the post BD Anon.
Title: Roads with Forks and never ending decisions.
Post by: Treasur on November 27, 2020, 01:53:19 AM
An extra thought fwiw on the issue of intentionality....

I'm not so sure that the kinds of folks who do these things do so with the consistent intention of hurting us or our lives in the way they do. Sometimes perhaps it is more intentional....a desire to manipulate or frighten us to get what they want. But overall I think we are not the focus of their intention at all. And I think they have no comprehension of our LBS experience. (And are not interested lol)

What is true more often than not I think is that, although hurting us may not be their intention, they don't care if they do as long as they feel better or get something they want. And if they have a moment of discomfort, they find a way to justify it as being out of their control, necessary or our fault bc (fill in the bonkers reason).

Is that different as the object of the damage? Idk. That is probably a personal conclusion. But I think the intention (or not) does not remove the reality of the damage probably. And interacting with any person who has little or no care for the negative effects of their behaviour on others is inherently risky isn't it? It isn't easy to swallow the scale of their disregard either after years of a very different kind of experience with that person.....painful to accept when we finally can see it.....but swallowing it as a current reality based on what we can see as a behaviour pattern probably makes it easier to make it much less about us and much easier to remove ourselves from being around people who act that way (regardless of the reason or our guesses about their intentions).
Title: Roads with Forks and never ending decisions.
Post by: Seahorse on November 27, 2020, 10:07:04 AM
Anon -
I am sorry that you're having a setback with these PTSD feelings.
You ARE doing well.  Even in healing, there will be memories and emotions.  Cycling...

I agree that, eventhough it's free, I would have someone else do the electrical and moving, and figure the money well-spent.  It's not worth the emotional toil that would be present to see your husband again. 

Embrace and respect your feelings.  Be kind to yourself...

Sending you hugs.
Title: Roads with Forks and never ending decisions.
Post by: Anon on November 27, 2020, 09:10:30 PM
Treasur, Song and Sea.... thank you for posting those great comments and thanks for the food for thought that came with it.  I have half formed thoughts about what to say in reply.  I've tried to get it posted twice tonight and it's just hopeless.  So I must put it away for now and go to bed,,, it was a busy day, my brain is foggy, and I think I'm just a bit too tired to string two sentences together atm.    I'll give it another go tomorrow after a good night sleep.    :)
Title: Roads with Forks and never ending decisions.
Post by: Anon on November 28, 2020, 08:26:51 PM
I’m back to continue my reply.   I knew months ago the day would come when the was no reason at all to continue contact.  Not out of bitterness or resentment but because there would be no reason to.    That day is here and I do feel a bit sad which might be normal.   

My moods and emotions are usually quite stable, but over the last couple of months they have been a bit more erratic.  Maybe has something to do with the approaching finality or maybe not.   Yesterday and today, I didn’t feel a shred of hostility towards h, and I had no urge to rant about him like I did two days ago.   In fact I’ve been pretty neutral where he’s concerned for several months.   I don’t think about him, pine for him, wonder what he’s doing, or even how he is doing.   I don’t hate him either.  I generally feel nothing much for him either way.    When I occasionally see him, or talk to him, that doesn’t change anything.   I still feel pretty indifferent.   So when there is contact It is only ever for something necessary and never just to chat or socialize and it’s very brief.   There is no “can I make a tea for you?”   None of that and its effortless to be this way because I just have no interest in lingering in his company.   

It’s rare that he comes by to get something or to fix something and I generally don’t react to seeing him.  Feelings are long gone.  But sometimes (or a lot?) there is a discomfort present within me when he’s around that has nothing to do with the fact that he left but how he left.  I am fine that he’s gone and the marriage is finished.   What I am not fine with is the method he chose to end the marriage and never will be fine with it for as long as I live.  I also don’t ever want to be fine with it.    If I were to go back and reset what happened, it wouldn’t be to prevent the marriage failure but to change the circumstances so I wouldn’t have to endure a blown up life and the deep psychological wounds that come with it.   I know that I have those wounds despite having no interest in my h.   

When I react or get upset it’s not because I have seen or talked to him but it’s because something or someone has reminded me of the ugliness and immorality of the method used to destroy my marriage.   My h doesn’t have to be anywhere around for me to react to those reminders.   The news story the other night is a good example.  The man’s grief over suddenly losing his wife set me off.   He was suffering her loss but without the shame and humiliation that a LBS deals with.  He will also be surrounded by friends and family who will comfort him in his grief with no judgement from them.   Such a contrast to the grieving process of the LBS.   

My reaction to such triggers these days is not just about me but globally to others who have endured the hell of a MLC abandonment or anything people have to endure and struggle with because of an encounter with someone who destroys their life in some way.  A rape victim comes to mind.   The suffering and life alteration that goes with that is perpetrated by someone they don’t even know.  How dare they do this to another person and think it’s okay or couldn’t care whether it is or isn’t.

Yesterday my h did drop by to pick up a few items and to fix a few minor things.  It was less than 1/2 hr.  I felt nothing for him either way, not like nor dislike, except for that brief feeling of revulsion and a gratefulness that we no longer belong to each other and a thankfulness that I have managed to build a pretty nice solo life for myself.   After he left my day continued with not much thought about him at all.  Unlike in the past where I could be upset for hours or obsess for hours. 

I am okay with h coming here for the reason he came by yesterday.   If the little fix-it’s he did was going to take awhile I would have hired someone to do and I have done so several times.   Not because he would upset me but honestly I just don’t like him enough to have him around for long.  However, to hire someone for those few minutes of help from him would be silly given my general indifference and also because my triggers and upsets occur whether he is around or not.  To me there is no connection to seeing him and being upset.   Being upset can happen anytime given the right trigger.   

I'm not so sure that the kinds of folks who do these things do so with the consistent intention of hurting us or our lives in the way they do. Sometimes perhaps it is more intentional....a desire to manipulate or frighten us to get what they want. But overall I think we are not the focus of their intention at all. And I think they have no comprehension of our LBS experience. (And are not interested lol)
I really don’t think my h’s primary intention was to hurt me.  He was just taking the easy way out to get what he wanted and didn’t want to think too hard about what it would do to me.  I know he has guilt and regret that he did this.   A month ago or so, he told my lower level tenant (that he has only met a couple of times) that he feels really bad about what he has done but all he can do now is move forward as best he can.   She was shocked at such a confession from basically a stranger.  A little while later he said much the same to me,,out of the blue.   I have detached, moved on and I’m content and he is still dealing with shame and guilt which is not surprising.   I do consider that his actions could not be anything other than what they where or he wouldn’t be in a MLC.  If he did the decent thing and ended the marriage respectfully then that’s not MLC.   In a weird way that gives me some comfort knowing that it really wasn’t about me or our marriage that broke him and there was nothing I could do about it.   

I don’t know if I’ve written anything here that makes sense.   Putting my thoughts down in writing is one of my weaknesses and it takes me forever.   I’ve read over what I’ve written and it doesn’t quite capture all that I wanted to say, but already it is another late night.    Thanks for listening once again and good night.  :)

Title: Roads with Forks and never ending decisions.
Post by: Treasur on November 28, 2020, 11:33:07 PM
Everything you wrote makes complete sense to me.
From those small life triggers to the feeling of revulsion to having no interest at all in who he is now.

It's a doozy of a life experience being on the receiving end of this kind of insane cruelty and devaluing and WTF. It just is. Hard to explain in RL. Hard to comprehend. And yes, I think as our brain starts to settle, we reach our own conclusions about how 'normal' it all was and what, if anything, it tells us about our experiences before it happened. We may not all reach the same conclusions here.....some shared experiences but some are different....but I wonder if we have to reach a level of detachment from them as people before we can work out what we think actually happened. And how we feel about it and them as a consequence.

The cruelty was the most incomprehensible thing for me personally. And a feeling of being erased somehow, being dehumanised. I simply couldn't 'get it' at all, still can't. Which imho is a good thing.  :)

I remember that for a while I used to listen to Dateline podcasts almost obsessively.  ::) Never had before and haven't done now for over a year. Looking back, I think it was my brain's attempt to validate, even normalise, the deep-seated fear I felt in a way that I couldn't do in RL. It wasn't exactly that I thought my then h might be planning to kill me....it was that it somehow wasn't entirely inconceivable that he could, if that makes sense....that my fear was real even if a Dateline outcome probably wasn't. My brain couldn't 'get' that someone who used to love me could hurt me; the Dateline stories perhaps helped me to feel a bit more normal, a bit more accepting that they could. Seems weird now, but it must have done something that I needed at the time  ::) and when that itch was scratched, I just stopped. Seems a very WTF thing for me to have reached for though, I guess some kind of instinctive search for 'what kind of person does THAT?'  ::). (Although listening to political podcasts like Rachel Maddow in Trumpy times has sometimes been a different kind of WTF lol)

But, like you say about stories from other people's lives, I have become almost allergic to cruelty. And deeply touched by kindness, devotion and all the things which are the opposite of that. I have no interest in engaging with people who consistently hurt others without enough remorse to look at it and try to do better....who somehow find it acceptable enough to keep doing it....and, for whatever reason, that seems to be what my xh became. Or at least towards me, my family, our friends, pets and every bit that made up his old life lol. I have no idea how he treats people in his new life, of course. I don't care if he feels ashamed or guilty tbh....not my burden....just that he didn't/doesn't feel bad enough to behave differently. My xh never said sorry, never explained, never said goodbye even....just a morass of WTF disregard sprinkled with lies and contempt from what I could see. They normalise it, I think....but it never felt normal to me then or now. Letting that go took longer than letting him go  :).....but all of the kind of thoughts you have been having, I had, and they drew me forward as I think is happening for you too from what you write.

And I like the fact that it never felt normal or acceotable to me as a human being and that I don't like it and I don't like people who act this way  :)
Title: Roads with Forks and never ending decisions.
Post by: KeepItTogether on December 11, 2020, 10:07:46 AM

I don’t know if I’ve written anything here that makes sense.   Putting my thoughts down in writing is one of my weaknesses and it takes me forever.   I’ve read over what I’ve written and it doesn’t quite capture all that I wanted to say, but already it is another late night.    Thanks for listening once again and good night.  :)

On the contrary my friend--I think writing your thoughts and emotional triggers is indeed a great strength.

I find I am triggered by so many things these days, and H doesn't have to be anywhere near me. It is all part of our process. Their process is theirs alone. I don't think they really ever stop to think about our pain. Especially if the LBS is like you--a thriver. All the MLCer sees is that you have moved on without them. And they are still so very unhappy. How can this be? They are still such a mess, still so very depressed. Which of course is an incredibly selfish  emotion at its root.  I'm not saying they are bad people, just that the cloud of depression doesn't allow them to consider anyone elses' feelings. Him feeling bad about what he's done, and articulating that to some random, and then to you, tells me he is looking for reassurance that he isn't a bad guy. B/c HE feels bad. He doesn't really wonder how his actions might have destroyed you in a moment. B/c that is in the past. And now, you are "fine." Right?  More reason to wallow.  Oh MLC....such fun.

But you do sound great as usual. I am happy the little fix-its are getting done. And that you are making your home all about that wonderful, adventurous, kind, caring, beautiful soul....Anon.
Title: Roads with Forks and never ending decisions.
Post by: Curiosity on December 11, 2020, 01:20:55 PM
Following along... just reread this thread because I have really been feeling the triggers and some negative emotions toward my W a bit more lately. I am still early in this and very much still cycling, not detached as I know I need to be, and I’m getting better but I have a long way to go.

Just wanted to say that there’s so much here in your posts and in the responses that makes complete sense. The MLCer seems to largely be oblivious to just how much trauma they have inflicted on the LBS. Sometimes you get a glimpse of the shame they have about it and you get the idea that they know, but normally they are so good at avoiding responsibility for what they have done, that it seems like they truly have no idea just what they have inflicted on their LBS. When you come through this with as much strength and dignity as you have, it makes it even harder for them to really see it. In their minds it’s a civil, normal parting of the ways that is, in some cases, almost a mutual decision even if they initiated it.

I think what I struggle with most is the lack of empathy. It would almost be easier if she were monstering or completely absent. But she is around, she says she wants to be able to be fully, authentically herself with me and to build a healthy relationship, whether that is as friends or as a couple. But she never reaches out to ask about me or how I am or what I’m up to or thinking or feeling. She reaches out sometimes when she is particularly down or sad or lonely, but only to tell me how poorly she is sleeping or how unmotivated she is. And sometimes she just doesn’t reach out at all. And yet, one of her issues with our marriage was that we had grown disconnected, and one of her reasons to go off on her own is because she talks about wanting to be able to explore connections and relationships as they arise in her life. And that’s a long roundabout way of getting to the point that she seemingly sees no problem with throwing away our commitment and promises and shared life without even trying to reconnect. And whether that is because she is a person whose promises mean nothing in general, or whether she just doesn’t value me or our marriage enough to fight for us... either way, it’s hard for me to imagine seeing this person as someone I want in my life in any way at all. But the question is, is this who she is now or is this MLC? My stand is based on the assumption that it is MLC and that we are still in the tunnel, but it is awfully hard to look at their choices and feel anything other than pity or anger or disdain. It is helpful to know that this is an ongoing part of the process, so thank you for the discussion.