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Our Community / Re: The Rose Garden
« Last post by Treasur on Today at 12:47:21 AM »
Thank you all for coming along on my next bit of the journey  :)

Went out with old friends last night to a new local restaurant. It was a lovely, normal fab that is. We did mention xh's name once or twice, but more like you do when someone has died...a sort of 'wasn't it funny you remember person y who'. Normal. The evening was more about their travails with some mad Abyssinian kittens, sharing a bottle of Merlot and the delights of blood-orange sorbet. Chit chat. And after the strange times we all push through, normal is a real gift.

I still have those moments of 'what the hell happened' but they are rare now. Another gift. And I still chew occasionally on the MLC conundrums that we all do, but life got easier when I could put down the Why's and focus on the What's. And again, with a remarried vanisher who can't easily find me now, there are no more crazy hand grenades to dodge so that is a gift too.

This morning the sun is shining and I am off to my rather neglected allotment before the cold snap comes. Digging and weeding and creating order while planning for the year to come. Coffee, a radio and some physical effort. All good and normal again.

Tackling the PTSD related to my mother coming up in my session this week which will be hard but important. As some of you know, dealing with dementia in someone you love is another unfixable challenge. It hurts to be exposed to it, you can't change it and you hunt for moments of something other than sorrow and pain. For me, the fact that my mother's care home is near where we used to live - because when I had to make the decision, I had no idea how bad things were going to get in my own life and with my then h - also means that she lives in a place full of xh/ow triggers, where I could even bump into them, so that is a challenge to overcome for me in order to try to make a different way of loving my mother. That's my next job.
I agree with OffRoad.

The biggest mistake the LBS makes is to think that the MLCer loves the OP more than them. When in reality, love does not factor into the choices they make in MLC at all.

Most people on here will agree their spouses are unable to feel emotions. There are conditions of the brain that can cause a person to be unable to access the part of their brain that feels emotions.

I've read studies of people who had brain injuries that stifled their ability to access these parts of their brain. And they showed they made poor decisions compared to those who had normal brains. In addition, there are studies in business situations where business people who make decisions without factoring emotions in, make bad business decisions.

So if you take whether the MLCer loves us or the OP more or loves either one at all out of the picture, what are you left with? Someone who makes decisions based on something OTHER than their feelings for others. It could be FOO issues that they are seeking to somehow right in their mind. It could be perceived failures from their adult life that they might feel the need to correct (as Off Road put it, keeping up with the Jones'). I am certain both factors played into my H's MLC but ultimately I do believe the FOO issues also contributed to causing the failure to keep up with the Jones'.

The OP is fulfilling some need, but it isn't a need to love another human being. I am sure my H hasn't got a single bit of love for OW, but I know the reasons he is with her, both explicitly stated by him and obvious from his behavior, and they stem from FOO issues and keeping up with the Jones'. He doesn't even love his mother right now. He actually said that to her face when I confronted him about his ability to love anyone. He agreed he loves no one and said, "I don't love you, mother, does that bother you?" Dumb MIL said it didn't. Tells you how emotionally stunted she is, or maybe she was just afraid to express her own feelings.

But anyway, liked Off Road's injury analogy. Another analogy is living in a third world dictatorship. The dictator keeps his people poor so that their main concern in life is where their next meal is going to come from. When you do that, the person does not have the luxury of staging a revolution to overthrow the dictator. If they don't eat, they die. It doesn't matter to them whether they have a dictator or an elected president when their stomach is growling.

MLCers are acting on base needs, which differ from MLCer to MLCer. These needs are unrelated to their feelings for the person providing them with those base needs.  HB compared an MLCer to a baby, saying a baby doesn't care about others, as long as he eats, gets his diaper changed, etc. He only thinks of himself. That's where our MLCers are at.

We as LBSes are capable of feeling love and feel pain in its absence. It is important to us. But that's us looking at things from our own perspective. If you really want to understand why your MLCer is with the particular OW and doing the things he is doing with her, you need to remove love from the picture and look at it from a much lower level. Think of the LBS whose husband left her because she didn't buy breaded chicken. My H one night wanted to take a piece of pizza I made and offered him and run off to eat it in front of OW instead of eat with me because OW had pickles in her fridge that he wanted to eat with the pizza and I didn't (and he was the one who bought those pickles so it wasn't even because she stocked her own fridge better than mine). If you look at their excuses, they are pathetic and immature. I mean really, he chose PICKLES over me!
Our Community / Re: Reassembling - Assessing and rework
« Last post by Treasur on Today at 12:27:48 AM »
'Laugh and ignore' sounds like absolutely the right response....although I assume you are going for more of the ignore approach?
Funny how some of them seem to do this....I guess it is a combo of projection, a bit of reality hitting and a sense of ownership maybe? And they know what they did so assume that everyone else is the same. If he has time to be bothered, I guess la la land is not turning out as he expected lol.
The wings sound great...but tbh, if it was wings with a side-order of group sex, still not his business is it? You are no longer his w, or even his friend, his choice.

And the 'what if' stuff? If you read back through your own story, Mourning, you did your best. You believed that your h was still 'in there' until you just couldn't. You had to choose to protect you and your kids because he would have thrown you all under the bus....threatening to destroy the house, take everything, ranting at your parents, make you homeless. What else could you do? And look at how you and your velociraptors have pulled together to survive and where you are now. Truly, as an outside observer, you did your best often on your knees. I understand why I gave my then h the benefit of the doubt for the first few months, why I believed him when time proved me wrong. It made sense to do so after 18 years....until circumstance made it obvious that it didn't and that my h was no longer the same person and would destroy me if I let him do so. Still don't really understand why that felt right to him, why this was the only route he would take, but gradually accepted that it apparently did. Same for you.

From our POV as LBS, they lose irreplaceable things. Family, long standing solid love and support, relationships with their kids, financial security, even their health in some cases. But actually they don't lose those things, they discard them as worthless...but we fight to protect those things because we believe they matter. Or the ones we can protect. Some of our spouses may reach a point eventually when they also feel that loss, but I guess that is just the law of cause and effect isn't it? Or maybe it is more that the energy of the initial drama drops and like the Peggy Lee song, they look round at what they have now and wonder 'is that all there is?' And have the sinking sense that they made it this way even if they try hard to blame others. The LBS fight is a hard one but the fight means we don't get to feel that because we had to choose what really mattered in order to protect it.

I guess your xh's life is kind of rented from ow really...where he lives, his friends, work even...what does he actually have which is entirely his? And what he did have, he threw on a pyre and walked away. Perhaps that is his karma bus arriving....quite different situation for you, your kids and your own family.
Our Community / Re: Domestic Violence is a deal breaker PERIOD
« Last post by Loyal on Today at 12:09:10 AM »
Why doesn't that surprise me?  Nothing wrong with them   ::) ::)

]It's every one else's fault.

This is exactly how their sick minds think. Mine told me shortly before he did his vanishing act that he intended on getting his own back on each and every person that (according to his lethal  MLC/C warped mind) had done him wrong and obviously I`ve been the number one on his list for a very long time.

All I can say in my own defense is I thought I had to put up with all this crap to have my family back. I had waaay too much compassion and understanding. They do not understand that.

However that was not what I was dealing with. That wasn't the way they thought they thought it was perfectly ok to treat me like this.They didn't see anything wrong with it.
I was heartbroken and grieving and they are abusing me? Really?

And I still feel if the LBS does not lay down REALLY clear boundaries and enforce them as to what you will not tolerate?

 They will run over you.




Yes and the sooner we realise that the better, as the longer we wait before showing them the consequences, the more DESTRUCTION they willl do

Would also like to thank you so much for this thread InIt. Thank goodness there aren`t many LBSèrs on HS with extreme cases such as ours but we`re here all the same.
Our Community / Re: They just don't understand
« Last post by Stand Tall on November 17, 2018, 10:59:08 PM »
New Update,

  I haven't seen nor heard from H for about 2 months now. I don't often get a chance to hear what is going on in La La Land, but I got a little insight last night. Seems they (H and ow) are deep in the tunnel of luv together.  Obviously he hasn't started looking inside of himself to figure out what is causing so much pain. He has taken her hand and they both jumped into a bottle of whiskey together along with lots and lots of shots lining the bar just waiting for them to drink them up. Something tells me he is going to crash faster then expected. At this point I just wonder which one will be hitting rock bottom first.

  I was told that the two of them are spending money so fast that neither of their bills are being paid. So much so that her car was repossessed a few months back. Probably around the time that he came to me asking for money and asking if he could have one of my cars that he left broken down and apart in my driveway. Don't worry folks, my dad has always said I was a stubborn one and so this tuff love for H isn't all that hard.

  I'm starting to think that she is in her own MLC. Her H passed away just two years ago and on the anniversary of his death she was showing on facebook how much grief she still has for him. . There eating out every night and drinking and partying hard. It must make 50 year old bodies feel like pure crap every morning.

  Now, back to reality. I've been having a great weekend so far. Friday night I went out with some girlfriends and had a great time and today was my grandbabies 2nd birthday party. He just so smart already. He knows how to operate a Ipad, the TV remote and a cell phone. He's been a big helper for me in the kitchen doing his best with helping me prep our dinners. Oh, and he can sing the ABC song.

  Its a beautiful thing watching a young mind develop knowing that he is getting lots of love and guidance the right way so that he will be able to live a happy life and show how much love that he has to give.

Our Community / Re: A New And Different Growing - Where Will It Lead? III
« Last post by Anjae on November 17, 2018, 10:53:59 PM »
I know the good, the bad and the ugly of Mr J's childhood and he knows mine. I have often mentioned which were Mr J's chidlhood issues, FIL always had mistresses, a normal thing of man of his social class at the time. MIL thought nothing of it because wives were for having kids, mistresses for sex/fun.

Not nice, but normal at the time here in their social class. It wasn't even seen as immoral or incorrect by then within that social world.

The other issue is similar, FIL steady OW. Again, totally accepted by MIL and normal at the time. Mr J didn't like her one bit, but since a few years ago they are mates. So much for whatever upset he used to say she caused him. At the time, I truly believed she caused him upset and hurt. Since I found out they are now best mates, that she is on his Facebook, that Mr J and OW2 are beloved by her and they adore her, I am no longer certain of what he used to say.

Or maybe he forgot who that woman was an how, when he was early 20's and found kids toys hid in his bedroom trunk he lost it and become totally upset. He thought FIL had secretly had children with OW. I told Mr J to calm down. He had no idea who the toys were for. FIL and his steady OW have no children. The kids were for her nephews. Foolish of FIL, of course. Could had keep the toys at his office. But the toys were found when Mr J was early 20's, not when he was a child.

Mr J knows things about myself no one else does, and I know things about him no one else does. Nothing terrible, mostly teenagers stuff from before we meet that none of us shared with our parents.

Not everyone keeps secrets. Many here know their MLCer was abused. That is not Mr J's case. Not all MLCers have been abused or had a terrible childhood.

Legs not working is one thing. There isn't much I can do when the "small pillow" (don't know the technical name) inside my right hip decides to inflamete. Other than take the pill the doctor told me to and rest. It is quite boring because I love walking and to dance. Lets use cancer or a stroke. Not much a person can do, other than to follow doctor's orders and change their lifestyle. In all those, and other, medical situations, people go see an expert.

MLCers do not. They run. They have a choice, see a therapist or psychiatrist. Or even a GP. As well as not refuse help when they know they are depressed, like Mr J knew. What did he do? Run from the doctor. Refuse SIL offer of booking him an appointment both with her endocrinologist (when he started to be really depressed, irritable and agressive she thought he may have thyroid issue like she and MIL have had) as well as a psychiatrist. He also refuse to go see FIL's cousin who is a neurologist.

And no one pointed a gun to his head and told him to get involved in an affair with OW1 and do the grand tour of hotel bedrooms around our country. Like RCR says, slot A didn't just happen to be inserted into slot B and affairs require thinking, planing, ploting and execution. He knew what he was doing and he knew it was wrong. He wrote it on his letters to OW1. He is responsible for his affair(s) and the pain and hurt they caused. As he is responsible far all the damages his MLC cause to everyone, himself included.

If you believe that someone can't hurt so bad that their love is overpowered, that is your prerogative

I may if there was no OW/OM - most wallowers don't have OW/OM, so, in their case, I can accept it may the true. High Energy MLCers tend to have OW/OM, are madly in love with that person and many stay for years on end with OW/OM. They have love for that person and that love is bigger than whatever wound/hurt they have If they do (I think they are depressed). While, at the same time, being as nasty as they can towards their LBS. Even if there was no OW/OM and they were nasty to us, that would not be acceptable.

Very hard to believe there is any love for me inside Mr J and that there is a big hurt that is bigger than his love for me while he has love for OW2, the person he loves the most in his life. If nasty monster is love, it is better he has none. Good thing I think he doesn't. He only has anger, rage and hate towards me. Not nice.

I know in the day he will wake up he will say what MLCers say "I always loved you, I never loved OW, she meant nothing". To me, that is insulting. She meant nothing? She is a person, not a thing.
Our Community / Re: I Survived...We Survived...It Can Happen III
« Last post by BBhelp on November 17, 2018, 09:51:09 PM »
Yes bb but do i even dare take bruises while ow is in the pic? thats what  i can't do anymore! I question , when i do , is he content with it being "just friends with me" and can remain with ow. like i accept his situation.   WAs your wife like that while with om?

I wouldn't risk much while there is someone else in the picture.   You'll know when they are pulling away from them and moving back towards you.   Until then...back burner.

If he tells you he wants to be friends... tell him you do too... and once he is free you can talk about it.   Nothing mean or snarky... just the truth.

Stay Strong

Our Community / Re: A New And Different Growing - Where Will It Lead? III
« Last post by OffRoad on November 17, 2018, 09:34:43 PM »
I don't know Mr J so I could not say. I can tell you for myself, there was a lot that happened in my childhood that could have sent me down the MLC path that no one in RL ever knew. One example, I was walking from an ROP class at the shopping mall back to school one day and was sexually molested. Continued on to school, said nothing. No one ever knew. I had no idea what to say or to whom, or how I would deal with it, so I just buried it. And yes, it shaped part of who I am and there NO ONE in RL who knows that happened. If you think you know everything about Mr. J, I seriously doubt you do. Or you might also be correct, maybe there is nothing. Maybe his brain just short circuited itself one day.

As to not being loved enough and being second choice, I respectfully disagree with your opinion. I have no choice as to if my legs want to work or not on some days. I keep trying to work out a rhyme or reason, but I haven't found it yet. Does it mean that walking is second choice to me? Not in the slightest. As soon as I figure out how to be able to walk every single day without pain, I will do whatever it takes. In the meantime, sometimes I don't walk. It's doesn't mean it is second choice or I don't want it enough. It means I just plain CANNOT physically do it. Maybe there is a mental version of it, maybe there isn't. But I leave my mind open to possibilities. Not so open my brains fall out, just a little open.  ;D We each get to have whatever opinion we want, but it is exactly that: an opinion. If you believe that someone can't hurt so bad that their love is overpowered, that is your prerogative. But it won't change that I think it's a valid possibility. Although even by your own statement that they didn't love us "enough", there could still be love there. They could have loved the LBS the entire time, just not "enough" in your thought process. Fair point, too.

And no, no OW, then or now. There was an EA at one time (one sided on his part), but nothing else that I have ever found. That's the ONLY reason that I am open to whatever the future brings if he might appear. I don't put my life on hold, or really think about it unless I am posting here, but if he ever found someone else, or I found he HAD cheated, I'd be forever done. As it is, I live my life and whatever comes my way, I'll deal in the now. I kind of like it, but I don't regret my "plan for future everything" family life, either. Just different phases of my life.
Our Community / Re: Seems kind of mild in comparison, but it still hurts
« Last post by PJ Ames on November 17, 2018, 08:54:08 PM »
Thanks Roo. Your husband sounds a lot like my wife. I do think the health issue may be relevant.

My wife was almost completely her old self for a couple of months after her hip replacement surgery. I was thinking we were past the worst of her crisis. But after she recovered and got her energy back, she went right back into replay and OM #2 entered the picture. And OM #1 came along right after her arthritis appeared in the first place.

Maybe it's tied to fear of aging and/or fear of death? I don't know. I wish I understand better so I could prepare for what's coming. But whatever the cause of her crisis, it's hers. I have to remind myself to keep working on myself.
Our Community / Re: Other MLCers We Have known
« Last post by Anjae on November 17, 2018, 08:39:18 PM »
Good your boss is talking with his older three sons again.

Is trophy wife, OW? If so, not such a good idea to take the kid he had with OW with him, is it?
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