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Our Community / Re: My turn!!
« Last post by lawprofessor on Today at 02:25:06 AM »
MLCer is searching for happiness aka relief from depression. He has his OW and a very understanding wife, what a joy!

Totally agree with the first bit - not the bolded bit.  There is no joy in this scenario.  Self inflicted torture yes, but definitely not Joy.  I am surprised that you would say this Busy Bee because you have been through this yourself and I am pretty certain that you didn't describe it as a joy.

I read sarcasm and h point of view there not the literal interpretation of the word "joy".

You are cycling wider then your H. Because he is cake eating right now!  He's figured you out and pretty confident that you'll provide him the " warmth and comfort of your home" because you never go beyond your words.

I was definitely knocked off kilter late last week but not for long.  Nothing has practically changed in this situation but it sounds like you maybe think I have gone back on my word.  I never banned H from the house.  I said that family time wasn't an option and that boundary remains and was demonstrated yesterday when I didn't go to the football. 

Perhaps its not that you were knocked off kilter.  Busy Bee didnt say you were to ban him or you failed it follow through on a boundary.  Busy Bee said you were spinning.  And you are/were.  You've gone backwards to tons of newbie behavior that is not healthy or helpful to you or your situation.

For example:
1.  Confusing dim and dark as tactics intended for H, to somehow get a reaction or conclusion from him.  RCR and all those who have written about them are 100% clear this is NOT what these are intended for.  Yet you persist in arguing and stating that's the purpose.

2.  Writing h letters with the expectation he could or would read them and be impacted by them on a short term basis.  Over and over RCR and countless others have stated among other things that this is pointless.

3.  Keeping a focus on H rather than self.  For the most part you appear to stare at him like a scientist with a bug under a microscope.  Thats a control issue.  Only now after countless years here are you GALing.

4.  Seeing your H as "different".  Every newbie comes here thinking their H is different. 

He won't be the one to be in this year's.
He won't devastate the finances.
He doesn't want kids.
He won't marry the OW.

Your H
Has had multiple OW.
Discussing having a child with current OW.
Been in this year's.

Yep, your H is different than Stayed who never had multiple women, wasn't in and out of the house, gone for years, or spoke of having a child with OW. 

Arguing one size doesn't work with all is a specious argument as it's not intended to "work" in the manner you persist in stating.  It's to help you get healthier by giving you time and space to get yourself together. 

Seeing it as a tool to get him to wake up or return home is a newbie mistake and clear misunderstanding of the writings made when an LBS is under the delusion that she has that sort of control and influence over her H's crisis.  Another newbie fixer mistake.

5.  The underlying recurring theme is you get upset, H throws a few bread crumbs, spends a little time with you, buys you a goodie of some sort, throw out a few empty words as to how he loves you and poor me my head is screwed up, I'm such a victim, and you fall back in line and feel sad or sorry for him or see it as he's awakening of a sort or another.  And he continues on his way.  Perhaps that is generally what Busy Bee was referring to when she took her valuable time to write to you.

6.  You continue to suppose you have a crystal ball, describing what you assume/think is going on in his head.  Newbie mistake, waste of time, and based on patterns of behavior dead wrong.  Time wasting newbie exercise.

7.  Thinking LBS has control over whether or how deeply the MLCer goes in tunnel.  Your perception of him losing sight of the lighthouse for example.  That is you thinking you have some control or influence in his crisis.  You can't stop him from going deeper in if that's what he needs to do in order to have a CHANCE at completing this and getting healthy.  And that is him having control over you.  As long as you see things that way, he CONTROLS and manipulates you and limits any chance of progress you make towards the peace you say you badly desire since he wants you to stay exactly where he left you.  Tension there between the two goals which by definition is not peace.

Speaking of which, one can't argue the LBS has no influence on the journey if the MLCer and in the next breath claim actions caused the MLCer to run to the OW.  Either the LBS has influence or not.

But let's assume you're right.  You believe he wants to be held accountable.  OK, are you doing that?  Are your actions consistent with consistent consequences?  Or do you stew, write letters, and then revert right back to status quo when he bread crumbs you with empty words and charming monster?

If he was cake eating, he probably would have asked to stay on the couch last night because the bathroom (including shower) at his place is being renovated and its the middle of winter.  His problem, not mine.  I am not offering affection, any favours, an enquiring ear or anything beyond polite kindness.

Nope, not cake eating per se this late in the cycles.  He didn't ask to stay over because maybe he didn't want to, maybe he wasn't worried about creature comforts, not his focus, or he had other plans.  Who knows?  Crystal ball.

Cake eating is having a steady diet of happy home, happy wife, and all he has to do is bread crumb wife once in a while when she gets frustrated.  Cake eating is having 100% confidence wife is exactly where he left her.

Stayed's husband took some time before accepting his accountability even though as we all know Stayed held his feet to the fire for a long time.  Barbie Doll's H returned early and even after 3 years is still causing her some grief because he won't account for some financial issues.

My H is not like these guys.  He is more like 1T's husband.  He does not expect a free pass which is good because he won't get one.  He got one the first time and even then he was concerned about it being 'too easy'. Regardless of what he does with the rest of his year, I am bunkering down and focusing on me and then I feel like the new year will see me dating and/or enjoying the company of men if H is not willing to go into therapy (which I think he really needs).

Of course it's nice for him to see a warm and cosy family environment that he has chucked away but is it not possible that this is exactly what keeps him feeling safe in his current behaviour and never sorting his crap out?

What do you think prompted your H to sort his crap out?  He had a warm and cosy family environment too?  I am struggling to understand the difference.

Again, you're asking what prompted her H to sort himself out?  Still looking for a key to turn or influence and control.

What gave Song and Dances H the SPACE to sort himself out or more truthfully the opportunity to BEGIN slowly to sort himself out is/could be because she listened, read, and applied in her own style the things discussed here with an open mind??

1.  Focused on herself
2.  Got centered and healthy
3.  Made her own life
4.  Owned her actions and decisions and consequences.
5.  Didn't spend time crystal balling her H. 
6.  Didn't try to maintain a semblance of control over her H.
7.  Didn't stand still and try to promote his exit.
8.  Didn't promote cake eating day in and day out.
9.  Allowed him the time and space so that he had the OPPORTUNITY to CHOOSE to move forward. 
10.  Was not conflict avoidant, codependent, or enabling.

In short, she put herself as her focus.

Nothing has practically changed in my world.  My attitude hasn't changed either.  It is still 'my turn' and I am still grieving and working hard to accept that my H may never do anything to fix himself and fight for us.

Your H can't fight for "US".  He still hasn't chosen to fight for himself.  And he can't or won't until he has the freedom and space to do so.  Expectations. 

Now, go ahead, get mad and/or ignore.  Continue as you are.

I agree with Ursa -- thank you for the reminder that we aren't mind readers!  I am reminded of what I was once told about teenagers and doing household chores; that they literally need each step explained.  So something like "pick up the pot with one hand, take the sponge and make sure it had dishwashing liquid on it, wipe out and scrub both inside and out, getting all the bits......"   

I was then reminded that they don't just "pick up" things, they do actually need to be taught.  I remembered that when explaining to my sons about doing the washing up! 

I remember telling my H early on that I couldn't read his mind, this is a good reminder that I can't expect him or anyone else to read mine!

I know I used to be a bit tentative when laying down rules for my children (now grown), because it was a bit scary that they might not like it, and by extension not like me, but I've always found that they really do appreciate that, and if it's an issue such as them coming home but having their own plans and me wanting them to spend time with me, we're now able to negotiate.  And I realise that I'm not their pal, I'm their mother!

Thank you, Milly, that was really good.
Serenity, I'm really sorry that you are so sad about your D moving far away. I can completely understand how you're feeling. Your D is like my middle D to me. I dread the thought that my D might go leave across an ocean. Right now she's aiming to come back to Italy or stay in Europe. That's the best I can hope for. I remember you writing about it on your thread. I think that if my D21 moves far away, I will organize a house swap on a regular basis to go spend time near her if I can't go live where she is.

UM, thank you so much for your positive and calming words. You have a way of making things sound easily resolvable, maybe it's your science head. Yes, I must learn to communicate. Getting some pins to hold my crown in place!

Today I have a long day of work. I need to get started yet here I am procrastinating. Once I sit at my desk, I actually enjoy my work and feel good about myself. S14 is in the kitchen studying.
Our Community / Re: More Good Wolf for a Good Life...
« Last post by UrsaMajor on Today at 01:05:28 AM »
And, as part of clearing out the past, it is time for a new thread....
Our Community / Re: My turn!!
« Last post by Songanddance on Today at 12:48:57 AM »
What do you think prompted your H to sort his crap out?  He had a warm and cosy family environment too?  I am struggling to understand the difference.

I wish I knew the actual answer but no he did not have a "warm cosy family environment" .   I totally lived my life without him. There were days where we hardly saw each other or talked either because he worked away from home or my new vocation and hobbies kept me busy.  I kept dim and dark for much of it and S was absolutely vile to him.  I mean vile to the point where I was terrified of S myself.  Both Ds live away and their contact was minimal.

I think our Grand D had a lot to do with it though. I think it was a jolt to his sense of responsibility.

However I wish to disabuse you that  my  H has "sorted his crap out". It is still all about him. He is connecting but pulls away quite frequently.  All of the conversation keeps reverting back to him and his needs.  He still talks about having a place of his own. He even abandoned me on my birthday last week. 

No H&F - life is not all roses in S&D land and my H's MLC  will have been very different from yours for a whole host of reasons and therefore his reasons for "returning" will be different.

At this moment in time I still doubt that he wishes to be married but would rather stay married because it's less effort.  He does want an easy pass and he hates it when I remind him or "call him to account" . That part of the return process is in my view pretty script too.

Your H is much more erratic and all I was trying to say was that perhaps more distancing from you in your head and less stage watching might be more beneficial for both of you in the long run.

I'm sorry if you felt that I was getting at you; it was not intentional. I was just frustrated for you and so moved into rescuer mode possibly.
Our Community / Re: More Good Wolf for a Good Life...
« Last post by Treasur on Today at 12:24:56 AM »
Father’s Day yesterday was difficult. A bit of a fall over day, lots of noise & struggle in my head but I’m ok now.

Saw the house on Friday but not heard back from them yet so lots of fear and monkey braining about being alone and homeless in a month. Understandable but exhausting. Fear is corrosive isn’t it? And tends to kick off that ‘How did I end up here?’ refrain which again is understandable but not very helpful as Here is exactly where I am whether I like it or understand it or not!

A vet pm’d me and suggested that I should force myself now to think about the past less, including MLC and posting here. And I understand the wisdom of that hard-won advice. I guess what is hard is that often I feel very alone and have few RL friends who get this enough that I can talk out loud when I need to, and I don’t want to overburden my small RL support that is why I come here. Maybe that need to speak honestly and the feeling of being silenced is even stronger with a mostly vanisher. I don’t know. Anyway I will try to aim for a balance between less and enough HS.

Not sure why but when I was struggling yesterday something prompted me to go back to Katie Byron’s ‘Loving What Is’. I read it last year and it spoke to me then, but time passing meant it said even more to me yesterday. I do think we suffer when we fight against reality; there is just something self-evidently true about that. What happens can cause us pain and grief, but extended suffering is about trying to tussle with reconciling reality with what we want or believe isn’t it? ‘Normal’ pain is from events but the relentless anguish is from the meaning we give events and/or the effort to deny the real consequences of them.

The two things that have caused my suffering, as opposed to ‘normal’ pain about loss and change, are about my xh’s cruelty and indifference, and my sense of feeling alone and vulnerable without my family. And the big impact for me is about feeling like a frightened victim of past events and future possibilities. Those are the biggies that I cycle around and have done for a very long time now, almost 3 years.

There is no explanation that changes what happened or takes the pain away. I can’t see an explanation that would actually. So if I really don’t want to suffer anymore, I have to find a last push to accept the reality of what happened and where I am now it seems to me...and only I can do that for myself. And a re-read of ‘Feel the Fear & Do It Anyway’ (it was a truly rough day in my head yesterday!) also reminded me of the Pain to Power spectrum and that Fear only goes with action not thought. Maybe that’s the bit they don’t explain about what makes being a grown up quite so hard!

The four big questions she suggests for the kind of self-inquiry that moves you forward and keeps your eye on YOU and your truths are:
Question 1: what are you thinking and Is it true? ...
Question 2: Can you absolutely KNOW it's true? ...
Question 3: How do you react when you believe that thought?
Question 4: Who would you be without the thought? ... (and then try to turn it around in different ways)
Not going to share all my workings here - most are in my head or my journal - but thought I’d share bits of my reality and actions to battle the Fear. It is Fear that keeps me stuck and is causing my unhappiness now. And again my fears are quite simple ones; that my own past wasn’t what I thought it was so I’m afraid to trust my own perceptions now. And I’m afraid that I am not enough on my own to tidy up the mess of my life and do the things I need to do to feel safe and a different kind of happy again. And maybe that I’m afraid I’m too old or have run out of time having got stuck for almost 3 years?

As far as I can see factually, it is true that people I loved died. That my mother has dementia and I am legally responsible for her. That my h decided to leave me with little discussion or concern about the impact on me. That he was diagnosed with depression and I was derailed by my own depression and anxiety. That we are divorced and he is married to someone else now. That my old business didn’t work financially and that made me more vulnerable. That I am living in rented accommodation on my own without the wherewithal to change that in the foreseeable future. That I have friends and an uncle who value me and want to help me. That funds from the house sale are delayed by a busy court but will eventually arrive in the next few months. That other funds will become available in October. That I have enjoyed living here by the sea and I have my allotment. That I have recently found a new vision for my new work life and started to action that with small signs of success.

And that I want- and can make - a patch of clear water that I have some control over. That I want to feel more confident in my ability to be enough to rebuild on new ground which is less messed up by the fallout and both happy and sad rubble of the past. To feel that I will be ok now whatever happens around me.

And the velvet 2x4? I do want to hold on to my own values. I’ve made mistakes, sure, and some painful things have happened around me but I can’t change that. But I want to stop suffering and the only way to do that is to let go of some of the thoughts and beliefs and wishes that pull me away from accepting what is real right now.

So, today, three actions:
- instead of waiting, I emailed the house owners to ask if they have made a decision. They will say yes or no. If yes, I have an action plan. If no, I have a different one.
- I emailed xh to see if he will reconsider if we can agree to release the house funds now. It’s an experiment and no idea how he will respond. If he says yes, it will help me by removing a bit of uncertainty. If he says no (even though that seems unfair and irrational to me) I’m no worse off.
- I am doing a radical clear out of old stuff from my family past life even though I am not sure how or where I will be living in a months time. I will only keep things I need, things that please me in their own right or a few things I want as mementoes of bits of my own old life I really treasured and choose to carry forward.

Tomorrow I’m seeing a friend for dinner and will make a plan for the week that focuses on finding somewhere to live next.
Hi Milly,

I think that there are things that we all tend to take for granted and one of those things is that the "rules" are understood, even if they are not explicitly expressed.  The problem there is that humans don't read minds...

We "expect" people to understand certain things based on the way we have either experienced that person or based on past behavior... and, as with all expectations, we can then be disappointed when those expectations are not met...

Your IC made a VERY good point for all of us... D21 was simply living her won life as she would have had she been in her own house... the thing is, is that it wasn't her own house and she didn't consider the impact of her actions. At the same time, she was unaware of your expectations/wants/needs....

In the immortal words of the Jail Warden in the movie  "Cool Hand Luke" - "What we have here is a failure to communicate."

We live and we learn, right?

Now it is time to adjust the crown and march on!
Hi Milly
Sorry to hear you are so low

I’ve found children can be so thoughtless and hurtful. But they don’t mean it - they’re just young and full of their own  lives and they forget how much we hurt and struggle.

It’s good your D messaged and told you she loved you.

I think it’s brilliant you’re looking for a little property and I hope you find something wonderful and special.

I’m hurting badly too as my beloved D is moving even further away than ever. We have been each others’ support and everything since H’s crisis. She now has very poor health and ongoing problems.
She’s moving so far from family, friends and support and her bf is a nightmare. A MLC waiting to happen - just full of addictions. I feel heartbroken! This is our first year of not spending both our birthdays together.

I’m seven years in and life is ok but at times still very tough. I’ve cried a lot again recently. I’m moving too so it’s lots of changes and new stuff happening.

You’re doing so well. There will be blips but mostly you’ll keep going forwards and upwards as we all do


Our Community / Re: Into the 4th year
« Last post by Upintheair on June 17, 2018, 11:52:15 PM »
Hi there,
Thank you UM for linking. I could do the other way around but not from here.
Thunder, we are not divorced, so far he hasn't even mentioned it, only at the very beginning when we were both very frustrated and it was somehow easy to throw words like divorce at each other. For a long time I was hoping that not bringing it up on his part means that he wants reconciliation at one point in the future. Now I think his thinking goes like this:" I already made a big part for fixing our (my!) problem. I have started to freely live my life, breaking out from family norms and renting, moving out. It was a hard work. Facing many shocked eyes. Now it is her turn to do something and be responsible for it. She should start with divorce if she wants to. And bear the consequences."
I am not very well protected financially, but so far I am safe.
FW - Behaviorly he is still crazy, I think less wild eyes just only mean he feels safer -because  I backed off, I don't push him in the corner all the time when he is lying. (Which is practically all the time).
Now he is saying to me, he loves me. It made me think. Then I remembered he wrote to a possible ow (it was a gf before me) that he always loves someone who he ever loved. He is tricky, isn't he.
I like my new motto, that is to try to find happiness outside him. It opens my eyes to so many possibilities!
Our Community / Re: The Positives XXI
« Last post by serenity on June 17, 2018, 11:35:27 PM »
Thank you dear Savvy...

You’re a Star!!

One of these days I’ll master the technique of linking threads and putting things on my thread!!!

I’ll add it to my list of things I must achieve! He he

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