Midlife Crisis: Support for Left Behind Spouses

Midlife Crisis => Our Community => Topic started by: Anjae on December 22, 2018, 03:58:09 PM

Title: Growth For A New Half Century
Post by: Anjae on December 22, 2018, 03:58:09 PM
Time for a new thread. It come in the right moment.

Reposting what I last post on the previous thread as it is important and provides context for the thread title.

I turned 50 today. I don't feel 50. My counsin who had MLC offered me a birthday lunch at a restaurant in the mountains with an amazing view to the Douro. He planned it, I had no idea it was going to happen. He and his wife also gave me a pair on wonderful silver earrings.

We walked a bit on the area, very pretty.

So far, my inner child got nearly all she wanted, books, Húngaros (traditional cookies) and a quiet birthday. Aletria, a Christmas dessert I love, is the one thing missing for the inner child. Two more day and she will have it.

I think Christmas day lunch will be at my uncle's house in the mountains. Which will allow for some walking in the wild.

I've was presented with a glorious Solestice Full Moon when going to Mum's and back.  :)

Humans change and, if they see to it, keep growing. The first half century of my life is over, the second half century just started. I don't feel the weight of have lived half a century (put that way it sounds much more than 50 years).

Not even all that come with BD seem to had left extra weight. Yes, a lot of changed in my life and I do not have the life I was used to. My I no longer feel trapped by the events. I feel free and light and the inner child seems to be in charge.


previous thread: https://mlcforum.theherosspouse.com/index.php?topic=10189.0 -  A New And Different Growing - Where Will It Lead? III
Title: Re: Growth For A New Half Century
Post by: Anjae on December 22, 2018, 04:08:38 PM
Thank you Hope and Acorn for the birthday wishes on my previous thread.


I really don't have anything on my wish list, Hope. Aside from Joy.

Going with the flow is the mood I am in.

There has been too many complicated full of stress years. BD and all those years afterwards. 8 years looking after grandmother. Aunt's cancer in early 2016 and aunt's stroke early this year.

A peaceful, bumpless, full of joy year would be a great year.


The inner child will be spoiled at Christmas Eve, Acorn. My younger brother does a mean Aletria. My two sisters also do quite a good one. It is funny, I cook, but never did any Christmas cooking. I do the dark chocolate mousse. Was trying to escape this year. No luck.  ::)

I am liking the Fabulous Fifties club! Something tells me it will be a for more fun and joyful decade than the 40's.  :)


Somehow, things do seem to change for the better. I am talking about inner things/way(s) of reacting/responding to things and how we see things.

Did it happen because of Mr J's MLC? I don't know. But it happened. I look at my younger siblings, especially the four younger ones and thing, why so much ado about nothing?

On the other hand, Mr J was always more emotional than I am, and I had a variation of the thought, "will becoming upset change anything"? To which Mr J's reply always was "No".

To him, like to my younger sister, and I suspect my three younger brothers, a fuss mean one cares. To me it only means mess and lack of peace.
Title: Re: Growth For A New Half Century
Post by: Anon on December 22, 2018, 04:13:49 PM
Anjae - I hope you have a fabulous birthday!  I'm wishing for you that year of peace and joy with many more to follow.    :)
Title: Re: Growth For A New Half Century
Post by: Shining Star on December 22, 2018, 04:15:27 PM
Hi!  Happy Birthday.  You sound really good.  I am following along....
Title: Re: Growth For A New Half Century
Post by: PJ Will Be OK on December 22, 2018, 07:19:20 PM
Happy Birthday Anjae! I just hit the big 5-0 last month myself.

Following along.

Hope you have a very merry Christmas and a 2019 that's as amazing as you are.
Title: Re: Growth For A New Half Century
Post by: Kintsugi on December 22, 2018, 07:33:18 PM
Happy Birthday!!!
Title: Re: Growth For A New Half Century
Post by: Jackolar12 on December 22, 2018, 07:43:18 PM
Many happy returns Anjae, 50 years young and everything to live for. Enjoy your Christmas treats and step forward into a new decade of peace and tranquility.
Best wishes
Jack
Title: Re: Growth For A New Half Century
Post by: Ready2Transform on December 22, 2018, 08:55:17 PM
HAPPY BIRTHDAY!!! What a beautiful way to start a new chapter, with the biggest candle lit in the sky and celebrations everywhere. Much love to you my friend!
Title: Re: Growth For A New Half Century
Post by: Savoir Faire on December 22, 2018, 09:02:33 PM
Happy Birthday Anjae!!  I hope this is the beginning of the fabulous 50's for you.
Title: Re: Growth For A New Half Century
Post by: xyzcf on December 22, 2018, 09:03:41 PM
Happy birthday Anjae. I hope you did something fun today.

I am reminiscing. On my 50 th birthday I ate dinner in NYC, saw the Rockefeller Christmas tree and received the best 50 th birthday gift. A suede jacket with fringes a la Crosby Stills Nash and Young but very feminine.

I felt totally loved and totally safe. I had no idea that my education was going to hit in 5 years.

By age 64 I had learned that life is happening and that I needed to live it. That is happening now as I expect it does for each one of us.

Thank you for all your wisdom that you have shared with us on HS and your kindness to me I. Some very shaky times.  A stranger who is willing to listen to me and understand my dark days.

I hope one day to meet you in person. You just never know. We could go to a favela or perhaps to Fatima or to Porto.

One day Anjae, you just never know.

Happy Happy birthday

Title: Re: Growth For A New Half Century
Post by: Mitzpah on December 22, 2018, 09:46:44 PM
Feliz aniversário Anjae!!!

Sounds like a lovely birthday! I remember my fiftieth too - just into this mess, I had my parents over and we had a delicious Japanese dinner😊

Beijos
Title: Re: Growth For A New Half Century
Post by: Treasur on December 22, 2018, 10:36:29 PM
Happy Birthday' Anjae  :)
Title: Re: Growth For A New Half Century
Post by: Trustandlove on December 23, 2018, 12:17:14 AM
Happy birthday, Anjae; I do hope the next 50 years are wonderful for you!

x
Title: Re: Growth For A New Half Century
Post by: Thunder on December 23, 2018, 08:07:41 AM
Happy belated birthday, Anjae!   :)

Big Hug!!!
Title: Re: Growth For A New Half Century
Post by: Anjae on December 23, 2018, 02:28:52 PM
Thank you, Anon, Shining Star, PJ, Kintsugi, Jack, Ready2, Savy, Xyzcf, Mitz, Treasur, Trust and Thunder.

I loved that feminine suede jacket with fringes a la Crosby Stills Nash and Young for a 50th birthday present, Xyzcf.

I also hope to meet you in person one day. We never know. It would be wonderful to meet you, and the others as well.


Today was also a good day. Went to the park, walking, and spend time in a garden with a lake. The oldest of my brothers went with me and we had a nice time.

Title: Re: Growth For A New Half Century
Post by: serenity on December 23, 2018, 02:40:35 PM
Glad you had a good day...

50 - how lovely, that seems like a long time ago now for me! 😉

It could be the start of a whole new you...

Hugs

X
Title: Re: Growth For A New Half Century
Post by: Nas on December 23, 2018, 03:43:04 PM
Happiest of birthdays to you, Anjae!
Title: Re: Growth For A New Half Century
Post by: Anjae on January 01, 2019, 04:47:37 PM
Thank you, Serenity and Nas.

Happy New Year.
Title: Re: Growth For A New Half Century
Post by: serenity on January 02, 2019, 02:19:43 PM
Happy New Year dear Anjae

Hugs

X
Title: Re: Growth For A New Half Century
Post by: Anjae on January 02, 2019, 03:54:20 PM
My answer to Xyzcf's post on Serenity's thread.


We're very different. The only "issue" for me is financial resources. Don't get me wrong, I loved being married, but I do fine on my own. Would love to marry again, or have a new partner. And would had loved to have had kids, but it didn't happen.

I have married, single and divorced friends. Doesn't make much of a difference. Everyone is too busy with their lives or several of the single/divorced ones like to go to bars/clubs. Been there, done that after BD. Rather stay in and read, paint, watch a movie/series.

Do I miss sharing my like with Mr J? Not anymore, aside for the odd brief moment. I barely remember him. What, at times, but less and less, I miss is the life I lead in the capital. Doubt I could go back to the noise and mess and rush.

No, you're not wrong for saying you feel that way. I just found it confusing, because, for me, life is joyful, filled with small things.

Oh, I had years or missing Mr J and our life. I cannot bring it back, I cannot bring him out of crisis. Even if he comes out of crisis, doubt we will be a couple again.

Like I said on Watcher's thread, for some reason I no longer like him. I mean like, not love. No idea why it happened. Yet, I know he was a wonderful man.
Title: Re: Growth For A New Half Century
Post by: xyzcf on January 09, 2019, 12:07:58 PM
Quote


Re: I Survived...We Survived...It Can Happen III
« Reply #69 on: Today at 10:18:31 AM »
QuoteModifyRemoveSplit Topic
Xyzcf, I have no problem with messages of hope. Never had. I do have a big problem with a old timer who also is a mod saying what you said.

You basically said that everyone who does not "wait" for the MLCer has given up and that a single reconciled marriage is worthy more than all of us who will not reconcile for a number of reasons.

I also have a big problem with you saying that LBS give up and that is why the marriage did not reconcile. Given many of us have MLCers who have been in crisis for 2, 3, 4 times the time BB's wife spend in MLC, and that all of us wanted the marriage at first, that is offensive.

The truth is, a MLCer with a short/mild crisis is one thing. A MLCer whose crisis has been going on for nearly a decade or over a decade and/or is violent is another thing.

I love hope, I love reconnection and reconciliation stories, but BB's and others with short timelines have nothing to offer me in terms of hope. Had Mr J crisis been that short things would had been different.

As far as I know, it is the MLCer who gives up on the LBS and marriage. That some are still there for those people is a miracle that a MLCer should forever be grateful for.

Yes, for the most part we are wasting our life when it comes to think there will be a reconciliation. Most marriages will not reconcile. We are not wasting our life because we keep living.

As a nurse, you would say a terminally ill patient that there is hope? When I took my grandmother to hospital for the final time, if any nurse or doctor would had told me that, given that I knew exactly what was going on, I would feel insulted. I knew that time she was not going to make it. There is hope and the is lying/hidding the truth.


I am answering Anjae's comments to me on BBHelp's thread here:


Anjae, I did not say what you are inferring.

Quote
You basically said that everyone who does not "wait" for the MLCer has given up and that a single reconciled marriage is worthy more than all of us who will not reconcile for a number of reasons.

My thoughts about if one marriage is saved because someone did not give up hope is because I don't care about the stats, how "many" marriages reconcile....even one marriage that is reconciled is worth it to me.

You are putting words into my mouth that I did not say, taking what I said out of context. I am sorry that you have interpreted my meaning that somehow I think that one marriage reconciled is more important than anyone else's....I did not say that...but a saved marriage is important from my own religious view....there is way too much theology for me to get into as to why I feel so strongly about this. I expressed my view, you disagree...fine...does it really need to be rehashed a second time? You have already indicated that you were insulted, I did not respond because we certainly don't need this type of argument over and over again between us on various threads.

I have seen people diagnosed with "terminal" illnesses survive....a very good friend of mine had a couple of weeks to live and was started on an experimental protocol for her cancer over 20 years ago...she is alive and very well. Another friend was told she would die in 6 months, she refused all medical treatment and lived for 4 years...so yes, as a nurse I will always be ready to give people hope. So many time  I hear doctor's give a timeframe for how long someone will live and those timeframes in my experience have never been right.
Title: Re: Growth For A New Half Century
Post by: Anjae on January 09, 2019, 04:11:30 PM
This is what you said: "If one marriage is reconciled because someone read BBhelp's story and it allowed then to have hope, that that is worth more than all the many others who give up on their spouses and ultimately give up on God."

It clearly says if one marriage is reconciled because someone read BB's thread and the thread allows them to have hope that is more worthy than everyone who gave up on their spouses. There is nothing about stats on that part.

It is not a question of interpretation, but of what is written and that is what is written is clear. It may not be what you intended, but that is what is there.

The thing is, many of us didn't gave up. We stood, or hoped, for years down that things would change, they didn't. Most people aren't going to stand and stick around for a marriage that no longer is. Even because many are divorced.

I get the stats thing, but facts are facts. Most HS members will not reconcile, for the reasons we know. Several old timers are in new marriages/relationships, some, like Learning and In It, very happy and with no desire to return to a marriage that, in comparison, wasn't that good.

Many newbies and mid timers will be in new relationships, or decide to be on their own.


One reconciled marriage is also worthy to me, but not more worthy than everyone else who made another decision.

The thing is, I don't think marriage is that important unless it is a good marriage. My parents never divorced. At a point, their marriage was awful and we, the kids, suffered a lot. It would had been far better if they had divorced. Or never got back together when my dad returned from political exhile. A bad marriage is not worthy and not all marriages can, or should, be saved.

As for MLC, I believe in it, that it does have a pattern and that most MLCers come out of MLC. But most people, HS or real life ones, will no be willing to take the MLCer back. Many MLCers cause to much damages.


What I meant terminal I meant someone like grandmother. Minutes, hours, couple of days at most. 4mg of morphine an hour (for someone who had not been given morphine before), a pulmonary edema that was not responding to meds. The only things that could had been tried were invasive methods that the team of doctors though would only cause more pain. Even if they, my miracle, managed to solve the pulmonary edema, they would never been able to reverse the last stroke with vascular epilepsy. Grandmother was in great pain before the morphine, was 96.5 years old and medicine had no solution for the effects of the stroke.

Doctors, and nurses, known when there really is the end. And sometimes, the end is the end. The other previous 4 times I took grandmother to hospital, including the one she returned from with the stroke with vascular epilepsy, I had hope. But during the last three months of her life it was clear the end was near and that even if there had been tiny neurological improvements, there wasn't enough time and it would not be possible to have her gaining movement. She was a soul, by then a sad one, she even often had tears in her eyes, something very rare in her, and she knew the end was close.

That 5th time I knew there was nothing to be done, other than keep her comfortable. It is important to know, and to learn, to accept the end in order not to prolong unnecessary suffering.

Would you say that there is hope to the spouse of the patient with FTD that there is hope? For now, there is no cure and it is not reversible. What hope is there? Presumably, his wife was already told by doctors what to expect.

My paternal grandmother has Alzeimer's. At least with conventional treatment, nothing will improve. We're seven grandchildren and the decisions have to be joint. My siblings do not believe in any sort of alternative treatment. The wife of one of them is a doctor, the girfriend of another is a doctor. They are adamant that there is nothing to be done. In that case, I happen to think a few things could be done, starting with changing care home - that one is OK, but, for me, not suitable.

Then again, I am also the person who thinks most mental illnesses aren't approached in ways that work. Or that work for most. However, most doctors don't want to hear about it. That said, some cases are too severe, the brain is too affected and we still don't know enough.

Regarding cancer, cancer is one illness where I think hope is very important and can make a huge difference. Even in strokes, providing they aren't the magnitude of grandmother's last one and/or the person is not her age.

Well, you're right, doctors often give wrong timeframes. The head of the  special area of the A&E when I took grandmother to hospital the last time thought she was going to die during the night. I knew she was not. Breathing and heart rate wore too strong (the 4mg of morphine per hour hadn't been startet). But I also knew she would not live more two days. And she didn't.
Title: Re: Growth For A New Half Century
Post by: xyzcf on January 09, 2019, 04:40:36 PM
Sorry Anjae, I don't have time right now to answer all your points as I have to go to a class but I want to reiterate what I meant by "worth".

I was responding to whyus, who on many threads has pushed forth his belief that to give a LBSer "hope" is doing them a disservice. My point, and perhaps I was amiss in the wording, if hope allows an LBSer to still be there when their spouse gets through their crisis and their marriage is reconciled, that to me what is worth is continuing to have hope that the MLCer's crisis will end someday and may wish to return.

One marriage saved is worth it to me.

I do not at all condem people for their choice to move onto another relationship/ remarry or have a partner. For many reasons, that is not the right thing for ME and I write what I believe for me.

I personally would not want to be in another relationship and have to make a choice if my MLCer got through his crisis...that would be far too complicated for me....

I AM NOT SAYING THAT ANYONE ELSE'S SITUATION IS NOT WORTHY. I am not saying that at all. The "worth" to me, is that by having hope, marriages may be saved because the LBSer may still be around and willing to rebuild something new. The "worth" to me is that although my husband is not living up to the sacrament of marriage, that I will continue to do so..his crisis did not mean that I changed my mind about the permanency of marriage.

I said "that is worth more than all the many others who give up on their spouses"...people like whyus who fear that giving LBSers hope means that their lives are not being fully lived, others who feel that somehow we are missing something because we do not enter into another relationship, who tell us that to GAL means we MUST allow ourselves to break our vows and find someone new...those types of comments are not in my mind helpful and may push someone to do something that they don't want to do...but after all, the whole world thinks divorce is fine and we are told that over and over again....

You are responding to something in my words that is not clear to me at all.....you are angry for what I have said....I promise you, I am not being derogatory towards you or anyone else....but the idea, that giving anyone hope is causing them to not be living a full life, THAT is what I was meaning.

I am sorry if you don't understand that and I am not sure how to make it more clear.
Title: Re: Growth For A New Half Century
Post by: Anjae on January 09, 2019, 05:41:34 PM
Not angry, I am offended/feel insulted. Quite different.

I read your entire post more than once. I could not believe that you have wrote. It is/was so, so horrible.

You're trying to explain. But I cannot see how it changes "If one marriage is reconciled because someone read BBhelp's story and it allowed then to have hope, that is worth more than all the many others who give up on their spouses and ultimately give up on God".

Is pretty clear, is it not? It does not say "all the many others but those who are no long standing or are in new relationships, etc.. It says all the many others, which in that context means everyone who is not reconnected/reconciled/is a covenat keeper or who is currently standing (but we don't know if they will, or will not be, later on). Which means a good deal of HS members.

My point, and perhaps I was amiss in the wording, if hope allows an LBSer to still be there when their spouse gets through their crisis and their marriage is reconciled, that to me what is worth is continuing to have hope that the MLCer's crisis will end someday and may wish to return.

This is very different from what you wrote. Maybe the post on BB's thread it didn't come along well.

Hope, truth be said, will no longer matter for many because the MLCer's crisis is too long/too nasty, they meet someone else. Most of us will not be there when the MLCer is out of crisis and, sometimes, it has nothing to do with hope for the crisis to end. I doubt any LBS wants their MLCer to remain in crisis.

A marriage is worth saving for me if it is a good marriage. A poor or bad marriage is not. Nor am I certain if it makes sense for some LBS, like myself, to even think about taking back the MLCer. 

It is a fact people are missing something because they are not in a new relationship, they are missing a new relationship and having a partner, sometimes for many, many years. A new relationship may be quite important for some, and may not be of interest for some. Personal choice.

For me, it would be very easy. If I was in a new relationship and Mr J would come out of crisis, I would not leave the new person for him. He does not deserve me and he knows I will not leave a new person for him.

I am all for giving hope, but at a point, and depending of circustance, one has to become realistic. If a LBS has the desire to be in a new relationship, keep telling their MCLer may come back may not be the best advice. I am not talking about telling it to newbies. But people who are several years from BD, if they want a new relationship, why not?

There are too many LBS on their own. At times, I think, because we over insist people stand for something that doesn't have much chances and no longer exists - remember the old marriage is dead, and often there is a divorce, so, no marriage at all. Even without divorce, many do not have a marriage or a spouse.

You haven't changed your mind about the permanency of marriage, but many of us have, or will.

GAL means find something we like and makes us happy, not find someone new. If the person wants someone new, that is their choice. Again, I am not talking about newbies jumping into a new relationship.
Title: Re: Growth For A New Half Century
Post by: LearningIamOk on January 10, 2019, 05:20:34 PM
As long as you are alive, there is always hope to reconcile the M. As Anjae said, it is a personal choice to Stand or move on at some point. I also agree that we should not be telling Newbies that the chances are extremely small that it will work out. They need a soft place to land, orient themselves in their new normal, and learn how to pick up the pieces of their lives.

For me, GALing put a whole new perspective on things, my life, my future. As RCR has said, Standing isn't still. I rediscovered things that I loved that were not part of my M. I let them go because xH had no interest in them, or found annoying. I used to love to fall asleep to music. xH wanted absolute SILENCE. I could do that again. I was able to reacquaint myself with me.

I think we do a disservice when we get the feeling that someone would like to give up their Stand, but seem afraid to do so for fear of looking like a failure. We have to make this a safe place for people to make personal choices that work for them. There is no shame in Standing, and there is no shame in deciding to move on, with or without someone else.

No one is more or less of a person because they choose a path that is right for them. We need to be able to validate everyone's choices so they can relax and live a life of joy. Life is too short to try to inflict our opinions about how others should live. We need to be the cheerleaders that are able to help those that come here keep going. That IMHO, is what our goal should be.
Title: Re: Growth For A New Half Century
Post by: Anjae on January 10, 2019, 05:33:46 PM
We really cannot tell newbies the same things we are able to tell mid or long timers. None of us would listen if someone tried to tell us the odds were tiny when we first got here.

Agree that standing isn't still. In many ways. Be is for someone who is a Covenant Keeper, since the person still carries on living, or for someone who may be standing, then stops, then goes back to stand again. Nothing wrong with any option we may choose to make.

I think we do a disservice when we get the feeling that someone would like to give up their Stand, but seem afraid to do so for fear of looking like a failure. We have to make this a safe place for people to make personal choices that work for them.

This really is important. We are pretty good at supporting standers, but, at times, we may not be so good with those that would like to give up standing and, like you say, may think by stop standing will looking like a failure.

I am not talking about telling people "stop standing", but of someone who is no longer a newbie, who has thought things through and reached that decision. On the other hand, we have you, Readytofix, Nah and several others who have remarried or are in a new relationship.

And there is me, who I ais neither a stander nor in a new relationship and have no problems with whatever option a person picks. My only concern is for newbies and those who want to rush into a new relationship thinking the new relationship will solve everything. Just like with the MLCer, it will not.

That said, I agree that there should be pause before someone decides to no longer give the marriage/MLCers a change. Just like a new relationship, or no relationship, it has to come from a place of peace, not anger.

There is no shame in Standing, and there is no shame in deciding to move on, with or without someone else.

Exactly.

A life of joy sounds like an excellent purpose to me, regardless of the LBS choice.
Title: Re: Growth For A New Half Century
Post by: LearningIamOk on January 10, 2019, 06:28:24 PM
I would NEVER tell someone to stop Standing. But there comes a time that it is ok to say to the LBS, depending on what the LBS is saying, that is ok to give it up if that is what they want. Maybe it should be done in a PM just in case we got our wires crossed.

And jumping into another relationship when there is no work done on fixing yourself, is just asking for trouble. No one makes you whole or complete but you. Once you are whole and complete, it's safe to let another person in.
Title: Re: Growth For A New Half Century
Post by: Anjae on January 10, 2019, 06:50:15 PM
I think it can be done on the person's thread. It would have to be done in a respectful way, but I think it is possible.

And jumping into another relationship when there is no work done on fixing yourself, is just asking for trouble.

It is.

No one makes you whole or complete but you. Once you are whole and complete, it's safe to let another person in.

This!  That is why is so important for us to be on our own until we are whole, complete and ready. Otherwise, it will be a mess.

On the other hand, people learn by trial and error. So, if a LBS jumps into a new relationship too soon and it does not work out, that is fine. The person will have learned something and next time things will be different.
Title: Re: Growth For A New Half Century
Post by: Anjae on January 21, 2019, 02:31:02 PM
Just putting it here for future reference.

A year ago yesterday I saw Mr J here on a social situation by chance. He was DJing and I went to say hi. As he saw me, he gave a step back in the DJ booth, terrified. I went back to the people I was with and kept talking to them. When leaving he put an hand on my left shoulder and said "So, good night". E replied, bye.

Before I and the people I was with went inside I saw SIL and OW2. I chatted a little with SIL and smiled and said hi to OW2.

A month or so afterwards I got and e-mail from Mr J asking for my address. He had found some journals of mine and wanted to send them to me. He did it.

August 2018 I had to contact him by phone because of a big collective exhibition organized by the City Hall. The curators had tried to reach him, but he never got back to them. When I finally reached him, he didn't recognised by voice and asked who it was (I called from the landline, not by mobile) and soon turned monster. However, he said he had some materials that the curators were after that he had spend years telling me he didn't had. I know he come to see the exhibition even if he told me he no longer has an interest in such things.

It was not the same time people told me they had tried to contact Mr J and he either didn't reply to them or did once, said he would follow up and then didn't. No idea what that is so. He seems to follow up when it comes to his DJ sets.

Since he started contacting by e-mail once or twice a year in 2016 no more progress other than simple going nowhere contact has happened aside him using my given name in the e-mails rather than no name. The e-mails still end with Kind regards rather than kisses.

Last year, if it wasn't for the exhibition, I would had not contacted him. If I had mostly lost any desire to contatc him, August 2018 phone call made lose any remaining wish to do so.
Title: Re: Growth For A New Half Century
Post by: LearningIamOk on January 21, 2019, 05:07:29 PM
Anjae, I think Mr. J takes the prize for being a Tunnel Enthusiast. ;D To be so ingrained in MLC behaviors makes me shake my head. It must be getting tiresome to be stuck so long in trying to make believe you are in a good place. Obviously, his fear of you approaching him speaks volumes about how little forward movement there has been with him.

What a horrible way to live life.
Title: Re: Growth For A New Half Century
Post by: Anjae on January 21, 2019, 05:48:18 PM
Anjae, I think Mr. J takes the prize for being a Tunnel Enthusiast. ;D

I think I agree.  ;D Trusandlove's husband wing second place. And at least someone else posted on the Old Timers thread they had a MLCer in the tunnel for some 11 years.  Xyzcf's bhusband is, I think, now on year 10. Quite a few Tunnel Enthusiasts.  ::) ;D

It must be getting tiresome to be stuck so long in trying to make believe you are in a good place.

It is obviously tiresome and Mr J's MLC lifestyle is very tiring. He looks terrible. But, since he has many fans and they keep saying he looks great, I think he believes them. His mirror must be twisted and shows him a different image. Not sure what he does with pictures.

Obviously, his fear of you approaching him speaks volumes about how little forward movement there has been with him.

I don't know. Acorn't is in reconnection and it is going very well. She talks a lot about her husband's fear. Maybe Mr J was scared I was going to say something about OW2 or that I had said something to her. Or not. Since he also gets terrified in the rare times we speak on the phone and was terrified on family court in 2014 even if we didn't exchange a word.

I just seem to terrify him. It should be the other way round. He was nastier than nasty, physically abusive, etc.

What a horrible way to live life.

Indeed. But it is is choice. Not my circus, not my monkey.
Title: Re: Growth For A New Half Century
Post by: LearningIamOk on January 21, 2019, 05:59:05 PM
I also seem to terrify Condo Carl. I don't get why. I never got in his face or the OW's. I just filed for the D and left him alone. Must be the guilt. LOL
Title: Re: Growth For A New Half Century
Post by: Anjae on January 21, 2019, 06:05:36 PM
Something does terrify them. What, I don't know. Maybe the fact we are the ones who can see through them and know exactly what they did.

Acorn and her husband are past that phase. At least it looks that way. Things are really going well for them.
Title: Re: Growth For A New Half Century
Post by: LearningIamOk on January 21, 2019, 06:27:27 PM
Maybe they do fear that we see them for who they really are. They can't fool us with a mask.

I have never read Acorn's story, but I will look in.
Title: Re: Growth For A New Half Century
Post by: Anjae on January 21, 2019, 06:30:06 PM
Maybe they do fear that we see them for who they really are. They can't fool us with a mask.

This.

Acorn't story is beautiful. She has a very graceful way of doing things and has been documenting her and her husband's journey as well as answering lots of our questions.
Title: Re: Growth For A New Half Century
Post by: Anjae on January 23, 2019, 02:16:07 PM
Answering here to Acorn from things asked on Treasur's thread.

Dementia is quite obvious. Your mother, like my paternal grandmother, can no longer lead a normal life. They live in care homes.

Your husband, Mr J, other MLCers are fully capable of leading a normal life.

Exactly, your mother didn't took your home, your money and didn't replace you with another daughter, etc. The other big, cruel difference, is that a person with dementia will never return to their normal self. For now, sadly, there is still no cure. MLCers go back to normal after the crisis is gone.

I have also been looking at pictures. But pictures of Mr J since he left. Feelings come up. Good feelings, not bad ones. Will need time to process.

For the first highlighted part.  Yes, there lies the tail end of the definition of MLCer.  I’m witnessing it right now, albeit just one ;D MLCer.   That makes me wonder aloud if there is extra elements at play with long time MLCers, like your Mr. J.  Hummm...  Food for thought.  You could perhaps share your thoughts on your thread, Anjae.  I’m sure there is a host of ‘reasons’ for maintaining MLC status quo and they have been discussed before.  There are a few LBS here with long timers and time will tell how many more will join that special group. 

As for the second highlighted part, I’m glad you are processing some more as you look at the pictures.  Those good feelings indicate your level of healing, no?

I think there may be something extra that adds to the longer crisis, but I do not know what it is. What seems to happen is that some MLCers get much deeper into Replay/have worst deeper and longer crisis than others.

What causes it? Probably different things for different MLCers. Some MLCers seem to wake up if they sense they are losing the LBS/family/marriage. Others seem to go deep into crisis.

Same with a death (or a relative or friend). Some seem to wake up, others go deep into crisis.
Clinger who are cul off of their LBS (or by their LBS) also seem to go deep into crisis. On the other hand, it is very difficult to deal with a Clinger whose crisis is still on many years down the road.

MLC lifestyle may be another factor. However, Mr J’s lifestyle is very different from Trustandlove’s husband. Both have them remain in Replay after more than 10 years.

Equally, Trustandlove and I are very different people. The LBS does not seem to be much of a factor.

The one thing that seems clear with long time MLCers is that, the longer their crisis, the more damage they cause and for a longer time. The more caused damage the more the MLCer dives into Replay. The pile of things to face keeps growing and growing, the MLCer keeps running.

No sure the good feelings that come from looking at Mr J’s MLC pictures indicate level of healing. At this point, unless Mr J’s returns or does more nasty things, there isn’t more healing to do. He lefr mid October 2006. That was another life ago.

I never had bad feeling towards the real Mr J. The crisis one is a different matter. He did things few MLCers do. Things few people do. Most people don’t try to kill their spouse and an unborn child (when Mr J tried to kill me it was because the doctors thought I was pregnant. The pregancy was a problem to his crisis self/life. I was not pregnant. Of, if I was, I lost the baby very early on.)
How do you deal with that? Probably the way I did. I always said, including to Mr J, that his crisis self was insane. It is true. His crisis self is insane.

Like In It, LP, Savy, Treasur and others I need to stay away from Mr J for safety things. A thing he knows. Cutting his clinger self off was also a necessity. It was unhealthy to keep allowing contact.

So, where do the good feelings from looking at his MLC pictures come from? From knowing what I already knew, the MLC person and the real person are not the same one. Also, from the second half of 2009 onwards for the most part the pictures show a very unwell person. Or someone that may look well to others, but, to me does not.

The pictures also show actions the real Mr J would not do. Like dancing on top of a bar counter or jumping in and out of the DJ booth. Or being totally drunk, fallen on the floor. Yes, someone took a picture, several in fact, of his very drunk self and posted them on Social Media. What did he do? He liked the pictures. So did I don’t know how many of this fans.

Is the real person still there? I don’t know. Maybe. The real person, of course, is not the before MLC person. It is someone who now has the MLC actions.

I am aware of how hard it will be for Mr J to overcome all his crisis self did. I would like to see him out of crisis/self destruction, but I know there is nothing I can do about it.

All I can do is hope my once best friend manages to come out of crisis. I miss my best friend.


There was something else that brought good feelings and good memories. Pre-MLC ones. A Belgium crime TV show. The young inspectors, who become a couple, reminded me a lot of Mr J and I when we were young. The male young inspector hair colour, glasses and way of being, especially towards the female young inspector, is a lot like younger Mr J. And the feisty, bossy, clever young female inspector similar to my younger self.
Title: Re: Growth For A New Half Century
Post by: Acorn on January 24, 2019, 03:26:44 AM
Thank you, Anjae, for sharing your thoughts and experiences.   I think, HS going forward, we may have more long time MLCers coming into the picture, so your post may prove to be an important one.  I, of course, have no experience with a long timer but nevertheless interested in their stories because they add further dimension to the understanding of MLC.

I sometimes wonder if MLC becomes a way of life after certain time/threshold has passed.  They get so used to MLC life that it becomes the only life they know.  The pre-MLC life may be like a dream or from another life time to these long MLCers until a very rude awakening happens to them.    Who knows what constitutes a ‘rude awakening’ for each MLCer and therein lies the quandary. 

As for leaving Mr.J not taking advantage of the peace and space you gifted him, well, that’s all on him as you rightly pointed out.  One can’t fix a MLCer.  It was his choice to take no notice of it, see it but squander it, or use it as a license to dive deeper into replay, instead of looking within and figure out how to get out of the MLC hole. 

I’m not familiar with all the threads, past and present, but from those I have read, I gather that giving space to MLCer is almost always better for him than if otherwise.  When LBS gives space to MLCer, the LBS benefits just as much from it, I think.  It was for me, at any rate.
Title: Re: Growth For A New Half Century
Post by: Anjae on January 24, 2019, 12:25:26 PM
Hi Acorn,

You're welcome. As you can see by the post on Old Timer's Thread, there have been some LBS coming by to post about their experiences. Long Timer MLCers all seem to stay in crisis for a very, very long time, usually always past 7 years and at 7 years or later still deep in Replay.

The oldest of my brothers shares the idea that MLC is all Mr J's knows. I always tell my brother it is not true. Mr J had a life before MLC and it was not like his MLC one. Also, he gave up his previous life in a few months and had no problem changing everything. If the MLC becomes a way of life, which it may, why was it so easy to give up the previous, decades long life and is so hard to give up the MLC life? I don't know.

You may be right. Maybe only a rude awakening takes them out of MLC, but who knows what is a rude awakening for each MLCer.

It is indeed on him to have dive into Replay when I cut him off because he didn't allow for peace and space. He didn't seem to understand he was being too much, not even after being told so. Only at times, when I had to remind him, he seemed to get it.

As for leaving the MLCer alone, Mr J was always saying he wanted to be left alone. He was. De didn't like it and found every possible way to still get into my life, including his court cases. Clingers don't really like it when the LBS detaches and leaves them to it. But that is on them. The LBS has huge benefits of leaving the MLCer to his/herself. And we really can't fix them.

Like you, I need all sorts of space from Mr J. Mr J would surely also need time alone. The problem is he fills all his alone time with people and activities. He makes sure never to have time for himself because it makes him think about all he did and he does not like it. But, again, that is his issue.
Title: Re: Growth For A New Half Century
Post by: Trustandlove on January 24, 2019, 11:18:22 PM
Quote
The problem is he fills all his alone time with people and activities. He makes sure never to have time for himself because it makes him think about all he did and he does not like it. But, again, that is his issue.

This resonates....   and before the latest OW when he would occasionally find himself with time on his hands he sometimes asked to do something with/for us, such as picking someone up somewhere, he once even said that "he had nothing to do";  I think by doing that he was not only trying to make sure there was no down time, but also trying to say that "it was all OK, we are fine with it" type of thing. 

I will say that learning to deal with all this has been invaluable in teaching me how to deal with all sorts of difficult people/issues in other parts of life, in that way it has been an incredible education.  Not that I would choose this method, but silver linings, silver linings....
Title: Re: Growth For A New Half Century
Post by: Anjae on January 25, 2019, 06:49:04 AM
...  and before the latest OW when he would occasionally find himself with time on his hands he sometimes asked to do something with/for us, such as picking someone up somewhere, he once even said that "he had nothing to do"

Mr J did that when OW1 was gone. He come and talk to me all the time over Internet chat, he invited me to his DJ sets here, he wanted to date me (but be able to lead his MLC life), etc. Then OW2 become OW2 and he was a little more busy. This time - all points for OW2 to be gone - he didn't try to come and chat with me. He found new DJing partners and is also busy with his new record label.

Never a moment of peace, of no things. Always some new project, always making sure there is no time to think.

I will say that learning to deal with all this has been invaluable in teaching me how to deal with all sorts of difficult people/issues in other parts of life, in that way it has been an incredible education.  Not that I would choose this method, but silver linings, silver linings....

Agree. This mess has been an invaluable lesson in how to deal with difficult people/issues in other parts of my life. For difficult people, I mostly leave them alone or ignore them. Maybe not the right lesson, but it is the one that brings me more peace. For difficult matters, it depends. Our rule of 3 is very useful. Often, the issue will just go away by itself if we wait a little bit.

Silver linings at a very high price.
Title: Re: Growth For A New Half Century
Post by: LearningIamOk on January 25, 2019, 03:49:58 PM
I also agree that the Silver Linings come at a very high price. But honestly, you get what you pay for. :) I am happy with my purchase.

Anjae, you were saying that you couldn't understand how the MLCer could give up a decades old life just like that, and not be able to let go of the MLC life. Maybe their MLC will equal the time of the old life. If that's the case, My xH won't be out of the Tunnel until he's 80-85. So he's got a good 20 years to go. Glad I'm not waiting.
Title: Re: Growth For A New Half Century
Post by: Anjae on January 25, 2019, 04:01:20 PM
But honestly, you get what you pay for. :) I am happy with my purchase.

So far, I have not got what I payed for.  ::) I am certain I will and that it will be great. It has to be, the price for me was extraordinarily high :)

I don't think MLC equates the time of the old life. It certainly didn't for many of the ones reconciled or in reconnection.

If in Mr J's case if will, he will 56 when out of the tunnel. He was 36 (36, good grief!) when he got inside. I am also not waiting, I am living.  :) I just have no idea where the future will lead. Not a problem, one day at a time is fine with me.  :)
Title: Re: Growth For A New Half Century
Post by: Anjae on January 26, 2019, 02:23:47 PM
Something is going on with Mr J. What, I don't know. He posted lots of items for sale, and was silly enough to tag people I am friends with, which means I see what he is selling. Several of the items he is selling are ours, furniture, appliances that didn't use to be on his house with OW2. The other stuff he is selling also isn't what he used to have when living with OW2. One thing of the several he is selling is his beloved vintage night table lamp, that he has since he was a kid. That lamp was not in his and OW2's flat.

He cannot sell, or give, anything that belongs to the two of us. I will e-mail him about the matter early next week, during business hours, with Cc to my lawyer. Not going to contact on a weekend.

Why is he selling all that stuff, including the one that is ours and now is in the house he lives (stuff he spend years either denying he had or not saying he had) is a mystery.

As is what is happening and why the place is mostly a mess. Suitcases and boxes in piles, everything looking shabby. He is either moving (again) or he needs money, which I doubt.

If he is moving, why sell items that would be of need? His he moving in with someone? OW2? A new OW? I don't know. Does he have to rent a room, or a couple of rooms, in someone's house? I don't know. His he moving to a place that comes with everything? I don't know. I know that the bed he is selling is not the one from when he lived with OW2 and that there is only one nightstand. When they lived together there were two.

Something is up. He also cut is hair, the way he used to have it before MLC. Except now he looks very strange and not at all like himsel since he is bloated. He is impossible to recognise.

It is all quite bizarre. Does anyone has any idea what may be going on? Probably nothing. Just another step in Mr J's long MLC journey.

As for how do I feel. The same. I didn't had any reaction to see our things I hadn't saw in ages nor to the fact that he is selling them. I only found the whole thing intriguing.
Title: Re: Growth For A New Half Century
Post by: Mitzpah on January 26, 2019, 02:45:32 PM
Very strange...

Although, I would not worry too much about what he is selling unless, of course,  it is worth good money and belongs to you too. Is it really necessary to contact your lawyer?

Perhaps he is going through a phase of detachment and wants to give up all material belongings... ???
Title: Re: Growth For A New Half Century
Post by: serenity on January 26, 2019, 02:52:44 PM
Hello Anjae,

I wondered whether it’s all over with OW? Maybe they’ve split up and he’s downsizing?!? Or could he be unwell and just wanting to get rid of ‘things’

My H no longer likes much stuff around

My own home is full of stuff! My excuse is that it’s my business so theres always stock around!

I suppose all you can do is keep watching and see what happens

Hugs

X
Title: Re: Growth For A New Half Century
Post by: Anjae on January 26, 2019, 03:10:35 PM
Hi Mitz and Serenity,

Some of the furniture and appliances belong to the two of us. The rest of the stuff is his. One of the sideboards Mr J wants to sell, that is ours, has (or used to have) my heirloom. I see no pictures of the heirloom for sale. My main concern is what he did to it.

The money he will make from our things may not me much, but it would be handy to me. And, if he does not give it to me now, he will have to do it later on. He cannot sell/give away any joint property without consulting me first.

I always let my lawyer know since joint property remains legally ours and I do not my lawyer to later say: you never said anything. One of us acting like it is fine to sell joint property is enough.

He is not giving up all material possessions. He is selling several Ikea shelves that are often used to records and ordering custom ones. He is not selling a single record and he has thousands of them.

He is selling the only fridge and washing machine on his kitchen, his bed, his nightstand, his nightstand lamp (the one he has had since a kid), the shelves, the sideboard, etc. The sideboard he may do without. But, bed, fridge, washing machine? The fridge is ours. Dead expensive fancy one, vintage looking. His and OW2's one was white and ordinary.

It is not only that he is selling things, is that several of the things have been gone for years, and now they are in his home and he is selling them.

He is also not selling the tons of small stuff he has. Be it records, memorabilia, art pieces, decoration pieces. And he is indeed ordering custom shelves for the records.

I can say nothing, keep the photos and date of selling and let it be. Providing he does not get rid of my heirloom. That is irreplacable. Since he is selling his beloved lamp (it was from one of his grandfathers) who is to say he will not sell my things as well?

OW2 is most certainly gone. She is a desing and order freak. She would never live in that house. Either that, or he is moving in with her. She has a new flat.

It is all very odd.
Title: Re: Growth For A New Half Century
Post by: Anjae on January 28, 2019, 12:40:20 PM
I have decided not to e-mail Mr J about the furniture and appliances he is selling, even if some are ours and at least one sideboard mine.

He didn't told me he was selling them, therefore, he either wants a reaction, or most likely, since those things stayed in the flat after I left thinks they become just his (he have no document saying how things should be split, everything that is/was joint, remains joint).

I keep the evidence. Will always be able to ask for my half of the money at a later date.

Maybe in a couple of weeks I will e-mail regarding my heirloom, which is my main concern.

I still have no idea what is going on with him. It is all quite strange.
Title: Re: Growth For A New Half Century
Post by: Treasur on January 28, 2019, 12:51:57 PM
Why not just send a short factual email saying that you have heard he is selling things and you would like the heirloom back as he is apparently getting rid of things and bcc your L? If it is important to you not sure of the reason to wait really. He will respond or not as he chooses, I guess.
Title: Re: Growth For A New Half Century
Post by: Anjae on January 28, 2019, 01:07:05 PM
That is what I was going to do. I have the e-mail written, bcc to my lawyer. I can send it. No problem with it.

The not sending was just because it may lead to monster. But, to be fair, it makes no sense  to say nothing. If he does not answer the e-mail, at least it is documented I sent it.
Title: Re: Growth For A New Half Century
Post by: Treasur on January 28, 2019, 01:31:35 PM
Makes sense, Anjae.
Title: Re: Growth For A New Half Century
Post by: Anjae on January 28, 2019, 01:38:57 PM
It does. The original idea was to send the e-mail Tuesday. Monday e-mail boxes tend to be full and things get lost.

I just don't want to deal with back and foward e-mails with Mr J. So tired of it. So tired of more than 12 years down the road still have to bother with these matters.

Must be why I come to think when it comes to MLC it is always better to deal with everything right away. Not that all those years ago I did it.
Title: Re: Growth For A New Half Century
Post by: serenity on January 28, 2019, 01:51:51 PM
Sorry you’re tired and fed up too dear Anjae,

There’s no real end or closure to any of this, is there?

I always feel I’m waiting for that other shoe to drop. We never know what they’ll do next!

Hugs

X

Title: Re: Growth For A New Half Century
Post by: Shining Star on January 28, 2019, 02:00:10 PM
I agree - there is never really an closure.  My take - I hope this doesn't upset you - is that he is moving in with someone who doesn't want him to bring a lot of stuff.  Or, perhaps he is going through a purge phase.  I know that when I moved, I got rid of lots of stuff.  I didn't want to be reminded of my past.  In fact, if my ex-H bought it, sat on it, look at it, touched it in any way - I got rid of it.  Mr. J wouldn't have those same feelings, so it could be for a number of reasons......

I, also, think the email is a good idea.
Title: Re: Growth For A New Half Century
Post by: Anjae on January 28, 2019, 02:09:53 PM
Serenity,

I am really fed up to the point I knew it was important to send the e-mail - I will have prove I said something - but was inclined not to because I don't want to deal with Mr J in any way.

May seem a bit childish, but it really is tiredness and having enough of all of this. I had no emotional reaction to him selling the things he is selling and were ours. It was literally, "What, contact him? Oh dear. I don't want to." Not good, is it?

The most strange thing is that I feel lethargy just by having to contact him.

Shining, I don't care he may be moving with someone. It has been more than 12 years since he left. It may be that, he may be getting rid of things because he wants new ones, he may not be able to afford the flat on his own, the contract may be over and the landlord may want it back and Mr J needs to move to a smaller place, maybe one with a fully furnished kitchen, for example. Who knows.

Wanting nothing that reminds him of the past is weird since he has had those things for more than a decade. Also, several of the things he is selling weren't ours. And the sad grey sofa he and OW2 had is not for sale. Not yet, at least.

Everything is peculiar. He has art pieces on the wall that he had hidden since I come back home.

Who knows what is going on with him. OW2, or ex-OW2 (not sure if she is ex or not) is helping him sell the things. They seem to be on good terms, regardless of what is going on.
Title: Re: Growth For A New Half Century
Post by: LearningIamOk on January 28, 2019, 07:12:37 PM
Anjae, the things he is selling is just that, things. The only concern of mine would be that you got some of the money from it, which you are taking care of with the lawyer.  I do hope you get your heirloom. I think that I would be up front about that one. Your call whether or not you want to say something, but that would really tick me off and I would say something.
Title: Re: Growth For A New Half Century
Post by: Anjae on January 29, 2019, 02:36:10 PM
Short, factual e-mail sent with Bcc to my lawyer. Now it is up to Mr J to reply or not to reply.

Title: Re: Growth For A New Half Century
Post by: LearningIamOk on January 30, 2019, 04:52:34 PM
How long before Mr. J responds to you, do you think? Did your lawyer respond at all?
Title: Re: Growth For A New Half Century
Post by: Anjae on January 30, 2019, 05:46:09 PM
I have no idea. Mr J will probably not reply.

There was nothing for my lawyer to reply to, the e-mail was only to let him know of the situation. He is not going to tell Mr J what to do nor ask for the money. Not now, at least. Which I knew would be that way. What my lawyer will do is keep the info for when things will finally be sorted for good (if ever, since Mr J never accepts a deal).

In a way, the e-mail was fairly pointless. It will change nothing. It just serves as documentation and for prove I asked/said something.

My lawyer is as fed up with this stuff as I am and so are Mr J's lawyers. More than 12 years and nothing sorted? Lawyers don't have patience for things that don't get solved, let alone when there aren't millions involved. Yes, Mr J's lawyers always drag, because he pays them, but even they tire. Which is why he has had several lawyers.
Title: Re: Growth For A New Half Century
Post by: LearningIamOk on January 31, 2019, 06:09:54 PM
None of us ever wanted a D. But God, I wish your D was finalized. Is there ever a point where your govt. will say you can have a D without him signing? :-\
Title: Re: Growth For A New Half Century
Post by: Anjae on January 31, 2019, 08:41:22 PM
To my knowledge, no, here divorces have either to be decided by a judge or signed by both parts. Since Mr J court cases went nowhere, I believe we would need to sign a document.

Right now I am far more interested in going forward with the former joint project than waste more time and money with going nowhere legalities. Those aren't even in my mind.
Title: Re: Growth For A New Half Century
Post by: Anjae on February 03, 2019, 05:10:04 PM
We all know there are a lot of things that do not make sense when someone is having a MLC. Or maybe they do, given the person is having a MLC.

If all the things MLCer do are hard to understand, leaving the kids is very, very strange and I don't know how MLCer manage.

My brother that lives abroad come by suprise with his wife and daugher (my niece). They hadn't been here in nearly three years and it was the first time my two nephews and my niece were together. Two of the kids are small children. One is one year and a few months, the other three years and a couple of months. Oldest one is 13. They are not my kids, but it is always such a joy to be around them.

Since many MLCers totally ignore, or leave behind, the kids, MLC, as we often state, is not a MLC issue.

It was the first time in years the seven of us (siblings) dinned together. It was nice.
Title: Re: Growth For A New Half Century
Post by: xyzcf on February 03, 2019, 05:48:10 PM
Sounds really nice Anjae  :)
Title: Re: Growth For A New Half Century
Post by: Anjae on February 04, 2019, 02:42:36 AM
It is.  :)

It is also amazing how kids, especially small ones, are full of love and give and receive it so easily. Very different from adults.

I had another dream with Mr J. In the future. It was a good one. We were a couple again and all was going well. Go figure.
Title: Re: Growth For A New Half Century
Post by: Acorn on February 04, 2019, 04:31:26 AM
Aw, to watch and hold those little ones must have been such a treat!
Glad you could have those moments, Anjae!

Title: Re: Growth For A New Half Century
Post by: Anjae on February 04, 2019, 08:23:08 AM
Aw, to watch and hold those little ones must have been such a treat!

It was (is).  :) The little boy I see more often, he lives here. The little girl had only been here before May 2016. I went to lunch at mum's with my two sisters, my brother who lives abroad, his wife, my niece and my younger brother's gilrfried. Then went for a walk with my brother, SIL and niece.

It was a sunny Winter day. It is good to seem them after so many years. My SIL is foreigner. The three of us end up speaking a mix of Portuguese and her mother tongue making for a bizarre, but funny, language.  ;D

MLCers don't know what they are missing while indulging in their crisis behaviours. Who puts family aside to go chase ... I don't even know what they are chasing. Phew.

Think I will see them again tomorrow late afternoon. They went to visit some friends and then they want some quiet. No dinner today and most likely no lunch tomorrow.
Title: Re: Growth For A New Half Century
Post by: LearningIamOk on February 04, 2019, 07:14:10 PM
Anjae, it is so nice to hear you were surprised by your brother. Glad you are spending time with all of your family. Yes, MLCers really have no clue what they give up.
Title: Re: Growth For A New Half Century
Post by: in it on February 04, 2019, 07:41:59 PM
Yes little ones are always a joy to be around.
Enjoy Anjae. :)
Title: Re: Growth For A New Half Century
Post by: Anjae on February 05, 2019, 02:00:54 PM
Hi Learning and In It.

It was a wonderful surprise, especially for mum. It is really good to have have them here and also be able to see my younger nephew more.  :)
Title: Re: Growth For A New Half Century
Post by: Anjae on February 08, 2019, 12:30:30 AM
Mr J replied to the e-mail. He does not say if he has, or does not have my heirloom. Just that he would be at my door at noon on the 24th with all of my things that didn't got lost of disappear in a flood. ???

We are not here on the 24th. It is a weekend filled with family activities, including a birthday on the 24th that will be celebrated out of town. His says that if I, or some one of my trust, cannot be at the door that day at noon, he has no interest in any future meeting.

Meeting? Who said anything about a meeting?  ??? I didn't ask him me to come by.

However, he only gives me my things if I give him some magazines that are more than 10 years old and joint property (and are stored who knows where). Joint properly is only exhanched if the items have been split as was determined by the lawyers and he has e-mails explaining that. He also keeps mentioning fanzines that I have and he wants. Some I have no idea what they are. Others had always been at MIL. Go figure.

He said he saw all the fanzines he mentions at the big collective exhibition and that I must had lend them.  :o No, I didn't. I don't even have them and they were not published by us. Most likely, the people who published them lend. If he is so interested in knowing who lend the fanzines, he can check with the exhibition curators.

There is no need of a meeting. He can leave my things at SIL and he knows it. But he keeps insisting on a meeting, even if know if can be someone I trust. Then, one not SIL? I trust her, he trust her.

Didn't like the bossy, dismissive tone one bit and that he decided on a date and time to turn up on my doorstep without previously consulting me if it is viable for me. I told him as much.

Anyway, we are not here on the 24th.

One thing I noticed, he didn't Bcc the e-mail to anyone. He never does. I Bcc my reply to Mr J to my lawyer.

Another thing I noticed. When I spoke with him August 2018 because of the collective exhibition, Mr J was totally dismissive of it, saying he had no interest in it. Yet, he come to see it. And even paid a lot of attention to fanzines we didn't publish. But didn't seem to notice that the one we did was missing.

To be fair, sending the e-mail asking for my heirloom only lead to same old, same old. Whatever.  ::) But I am tired of this stuff. Now he add to the list of my offenses that I lend the exhibition the fanzines I "refuse" to give him.  ::) Never mind I never had them in the first place.

But, at least, he used Dear Anjae and ended with Regards. But, boy, does he sound angry and unhappy and looking for a fight.
Title: Re: Growth For A New Half Century
Post by: Milly on February 08, 2019, 02:55:18 AM
Wow. Anjae, I didn’t expect him to answer you at all. Like you say he’s fishing fo a fight. I wonder if since he’s angry at something in his life not you, and then receiving your email he instictively thought let me contact Anjae and cause a fight so he can get it out of his system with you instead of at himsel or whoever is making him angry right now.

Sorry you are having to deal with same old but if you can get your heirloom out of this it will be worth it.

Don’t know what’s going on with your H tight now but something’s happening. Selling his childhood lamp sounds like growing up. Or maybe simply needing to generate some quick cash.  Cutting his hair sounds like having had enough of the new style and wanting to go back to a more comfortable time. But then who knows. I would say that there is movement though.
Title: Re: Growth For A New Half Century
Post by: xyzcf on February 08, 2019, 06:58:02 AM
As with everything else, it makes no sense does it? After all these years, why they still remain so angry with us....ridiculous but not unexpected.

The audacity that he should pick the date and time and that if that doesn't work for you, tough luck...really Mr J????????
Title: Re: Growth For A New Half Century
Post by: Acorn on February 08, 2019, 07:09:40 AM
Wow, the arrogance of the man! 
He is a bundle of anger, confusion and arrogance, isn’t he?!  His memory is really messed up, too.

Some of the synonyms for ‘arrogance’: conceit, hubris, self-importance, egotism
Sounds like MLCer much? 

He assumes that you want to meet him.  There.  That is pure arrogance. 

I sense a bit of chuckling from you about all this, Anjae.  You can’t reason with crazy.



Title: Re: Growth For A New Half Century
Post by: LearningIamOk on February 08, 2019, 09:41:41 AM
I can't believe how demanding he is. It must be exhausting to be so angry all the time. How does he have the energy? Would it be possible to file a stolen property report with the police if he refuses to come up with a mutually agreeable date? Also, I would make arrangements to have someone else there to receive it. It does sound like he wants to pick a fight.
Title: Re: Growth For A New Half Century
Post by: Anjae on February 08, 2019, 11:38:46 AM
Hi Milly, Xyzcf, Acorn and Learning.

I also didn't expect him to reply. 

Indeed, why still so angry, arrogant, nasty and controlling after over a decade? I am certain something is not going well, or the way he wants, in his life. What, I do not know.

And he wants to fight. He replyed to my reply in less than a our. I didn't open his second e-mail. Will see it Monday or Teusday.

There will be no one to pick up the things because we are away that day on a family birthday. He will never deliver the things to me. Either he will leave them at SIL or one of my brother will meet him. Of course, not on a family birthday we will be spending out of town.

He has been told time and time again to leave my things with SIL.

The property is not stolen, it is with him. Doubt I can file anything, other than, maybe, harrasment, given the menacing tone and words. Even that, I don't know.

The worst is that stress kicked in and my body is really feeling it. Upded the magnesium and vitamin C intake.

Maybe Ursa has the right gif, or gifs, for the situation.  ;)
Title: Re: Growth For A New Half Century
Post by: LearningIamOk on February 08, 2019, 01:01:54 PM
I know that the goods aren't stolen. Where I live, if someone knowingly keeps someone else's property, a stolen property report can filed.

For your stress, add B vitamins.
Title: Re: Growth For A New Half Century
Post by: Anjae on February 08, 2019, 01:29:29 PM
I don't know if things work like that here. Regardless, here any legal thing takes years.

I take Vitamins B every day. The problem is that 12 + years of stress (from various sources) leave marks and contact with Mr J makes it worst.

In a way, it would had been better not to sent the e-mail at all. No replies, no stress. Well, next week I will see if his second reply requires an answer. I don't want the e-mail exchange to carry on.

MLC is such an health burden on the LBS. We sort of forgot that part, or haven't been talking about it as much as we used to.
Title: Re: Growth For A New Half Century
Post by: LearningIamOk on February 09, 2019, 11:15:34 AM
Then it might be better to let him just keep everything. They are just things afterall.  no use ruining your health over it. WONDER WHAT HE WOULD do IF you said just keep it Mr. j.
Title: Re: Growth For A New Half Century
Post by: Milly on February 09, 2019, 02:14:26 PM
Anjae, I suspect where you are is similar to Italy and pursuing anything legally is really a waste of time and especially money. What about offering to get the heirloom yourself on a day that suits you, maybe the day before he suggested? You can rent a van for less than €100. It would also put the power back on your side.
Title: Re: Growth For A New Half Century
Post by: Anjae on February 09, 2019, 04:20:29 PM
Learning, it is not just stuff. My heeilom are family antique pieces, some of them 100 or more years old. Just stuff was what Mr J was selling, furniture and appliences. Hence why, maybe the e.mail was not such a good idea.

Anyway, early next week I will see what his answer to my reply says.

Milly, yes, here it is more or less like Italy. A litte better, but quite similar. Most legal things are a waste of time of money.

It is a good idea, except Mr J does not tell me where he lives and does not allow me to go to him. I don't drive. The day before the one he says he would come here is part of a family weekend. We have several family things booked with the kids - kids sports awards, etc. plus a birthday.

He will be here - he is not coming because of me - he can leave the things at SIL if he is OK with it, since I am fine with that solution. Or I and him can arrange another date and place. In the end, I am certain everything will work out. Mr J is just being a MLCer.

Another cool family dinner with the little ones. I still don't understand why MLCers can leave their kids. Also don't understand why some middle aged MLCers have kids with OW/OM. Little ones are adorable, but the energy it requires to play and look after a very active 3 years old, or/and a baby just over one year, is not something I think I would be able to do in my 50's.

Some MLC related things are quite strange.
Title: Re: Growth For A New Half Century
Post by: LearningIamOk on February 10, 2019, 07:17:02 AM
Anjae, I hope you did not take offense to my classifying your heirlooms as "stuff". I had many things that I gave to xH that I wanted to hold onto to be sure my children would get them. I took the path of least resistance and surrendered them. It wasn't worth the stress of dealing with him over it, to me. But I am not as strong as other people are.

I do hope you can come to an agreement that will work for you. We lose so much emotionally, financially and physically, i.e. personal belongings, with this craziness. 

HUGS
Title: Re: Growth For A New Half Century
Post by: Anjae on February 10, 2019, 01:24:06 PM
No offense taken, Learning.

I have been taking the path of least resistence for years. Lets see how things go.  Mr J is angry because things aren't good in his life and within himself. Why, I don't know.

...............

Been going through stuff in my bedroom and found the boxes with letters. There are many from Mr J, mostly from the late 80's, but not only. There are tons from when we start dating and the following years.

He was not who he become in MLC. At 17 he was gentle, caring, well read, intelligent. He like music, poetry, art, graphic design, and philosophy. We told each other everything about ourselves and our families. Mr J didn't like FIL philandering and detested FIL steady OW (the one he become fine with a few years ago). He though cheaters were horrible and deserved to be punished. There no mention of djing or clubbing, aside from mentioning he didn't like clubs one bit. He also never stand smokers of being in smoke filled places. As a DJ, he often his.

At a point in 1987 (I was 18, he was 17), my family thought I was pregnant - I felt sick, strong smells upseted me, etc - tuns out I had jaundice. What did 17 years old Mr J do? "We will raise the child well and healthy". He didn't run, got scared or tried to say he wasn't responsible. His younger self, never, ever turned away from difficult situation. He was a very responsible kid, than man. As a teen he would always got very tided towards the end of the school year and needed rest at his maternal grandmother's countryside home.

Where did the MLC version got the enery to lead the MLC crisis, let alone for so long? I don't know.

Was it all a bed of roses all the time? Of course not. We were in our teens. Later, we had the same issues all couples face.

But we always talked about things and always made changes and didn't gave up. Until ...

It is very strange to read his old letters when one has been dealing with the MLC for many years.

Acorn, if you're reading, maybe you have some idea where the real Mr J is hidding. Anyone else's input is also welcomed.
Title: Re: Growth For A New Half Century
Post by: Treasur on February 10, 2019, 01:41:20 PM
My only thought is that I am sorry that you lost what sounds like a fine, interesting man of integrity. Sad. Perhaps the letters were a bittersweet reminder of what was Real. X
Title: Re: Growth For A New Half Century
Post by: Milly on February 10, 2019, 02:26:44 PM
Anjae, a couple of years ago, I also read my H's letters to me when we were young and it was a good thing. It proved/reminded me that my H did love me once, that he was a gentle man before.

Interesting that you say that at 18 your H was much more mature and determined than he is now. I think that is what MLC is about, a regression, therefore a regression in maturity, too, until he works through whatever it was that blocked him when just a kid.

Your H insisting on DJaying at his age when you say he hated smoke filled places, hated clubs and here he is in these places every night, feels significant to me. Like it holds some key, either because it is a total escapism place therefore still running from RL (whatever RL age that would be), or there was something about discos when he was a teenager, related to when his dad was cheating. DId his dad go to discos?

My H's dad cheated on his mother and when I met my H he refused to meet the OW, and did until his dad's death at 80. And yet here he is doing the exact same thing he was so hurt by, so against, and worse because my H forced my S to meet his OW. My H's dad did not force him. I do believe that this not breaking the chain that your H and mine have done, history repeating is significant. I don't know how or what or if they will get through it.

I believe your H's DJaying allows him to not have to think of RL. He will eventually be too old for it. I can't imagine how he will feel then. Still, there's something going on in your H's life right now.
Title: Re: Growth For A New Half Century
Post by: serenity on February 11, 2019, 12:43:17 AM
Hello Anjae


I think all you can be sure of here is that there’s definitely something happening in Mr J’s world. Maybe it is all starting to implode and unravel! No one can keep going at the pace he has been going at for years. Like you start he’s now looking dreadful and bloated. None of this sounds like a happy and contended man who’s at peace with his world!

Just wait and watch - it’s all you can do

Hugs

X
Title: Re: Growth For A New Half Century
Post by: Treasur on February 11, 2019, 01:43:28 AM
Or even better, don't wait and don't watch  :)
Title: Re: Growth For A New Half Century
Post by: Acorn on February 11, 2019, 08:19:42 AM
Oh, Anjae, I feel a bit of your wistfulness across the cyberspace...

I doubt that anyone can answer where pre-MLC spouse is hidden away.   

The following questions that many LBSs ask don’t have any answers either.  I asked them myself repeatedly. 

- How could a person change so much?
- Were MLC traits always within the MLCer, waiting for the right time to pop out and this is their authentic selves?
- Why do they stay in their miserable state?
- Are they really miserable or is that our wishful thinking?
- What does it take for them to step out the fog?  Is there such a thing as rock bottom? 

There are more but you get the gist of it.

As I declare often, I can only go by my observations of one MLCer who has had/is having a whirlwind tour to MLC.  I guess my H occupies one end of the spectrum and Mr. J, Mr. xyzcf, etc., at the other, as far as the MLC time span is concerned. 

There is one thing I know for sure and I mention it because you have shared what a mature and responsible person Mr.J used to be from very young age and until MLC hit.

H was all of that, too, and that meant that he missed most of the teenager ‘adventures’, good and bad.  He was far too busy being responsible for his demanding studies, being a good son, a good believer, a good citizen, etc., etc.   He simply didn’t have time or opportunities just to be a teenager. 

H’s replay activities were something he might have done if he had followed a somewhat typical course of teenagehood - irresponsibility, rebelliousness, experimenting, impetuosity.  H’s wild replay looked as though he busted out of the prison of responsibilities and integrity, and he just let his hair down and became ‘wild’.   He could ‘better’ do the teenage days because he could afford fancy cars, etc. 

Mind you, I was a well behaved teenager, just like H, but I have not regretted it at all.  I’m thankful I bypassed all that nonsense.  Therein lies the difference between H and me in regards to MLC.  I didn’t wish to revisit my teenage years but H did, albeit unconsciously.


It sounds to me Mr. J was too good to be true as a teenager and beyond, and missed the ‘wild’ part of growing up.

Is he ever going to get in touch with his pre-MLC self?  Does he have the courage and persistence to reclaim his sensibility, integrity and an adult way of living?  Is he staying in the replay phase because he can?  Is this perfectly good enough way of living for him?

I asked these questions all the time...  Now I have answers but others don’t. 


We cannot answer any of that... 

Sorry, I asked more questions and no answers.   I’m afraid that’s what MLC is - so many questions and no clear answers.
Title: Re: Growth For A New Half Century
Post by: Anjae on February 11, 2019, 01:52:18 PM
Hi Treasur, Milly, Serenity and Acorn.

Treaur, reading the letters was not bittersweat. It was nice and gentle. But I didn't felt like "I love him so much" or "the love of my life". Just like if I was reading the letters of two teens. There is an interesting distance.

But, is the lost, lost forever, or "if it is lost it can be found"? More time will tell, I guess.

I am "waiting" in the sense of detached curiosity. It is interesting to see will things unfold from a case study perspective.

Milly, Mr J was 17, I was 18. FIL didn't go to discos. There is a regression. Why and to what age, I don't know. Or what looks like a regression, including in style of writing, may be the effects of the MLC depression. 

Strange, isn't it, how some MLCers repeat the wrongs of their parents. With Mr J is more then history repeating. FIL was (is?) a philanderer, he didn't had a MLC and never caused the financial and other damages Mr J caused. Cheating is horrible, but MLC is a different thing.

Mr J djing, clubbing and MLC lifestyle do allow him not to think of what he has done, etc. He has said as much himself.

Serenity, there is something going on in Mr J's world for more than 12 years. He hasn't been happy since before BD. He was depressed before he left. He managed to look like his normal self until the first half of 2009. From then onwards it was more or less, or worst, than he looks now. He has been looking like this for almost 10 years.

He is not at peace with himself. No MLCer is.

The thing with Mr J, and other long time, or very long time MLCers, is how long they manage to carry on with crazy.


Acorn, it could be said Mr J missed normal teenage things. But if so, it was by his own choice. No one told him he had to be into the things he was and be the way he was. He could had been like most teens if he wished to. He never wanted to. He was not forced to have his, or ours, creative projects, to date me, etc. He choose to.

Don't think he could be made to be what he wasn't. I am not even sure he misses teenage stuff. He does not seem to like his MLC life. I know when I had my mini, mild MLC, the things I did had nothing to do with missing them when I was young. And, if anything, I had far more responsability than Mr J as a teen. I had 5 small kids to look after, then, at 22, 6. Plus, when I started dating Mr J, our creative things.

Maybe that is the reason, maybe it is not. Lets say it is. More than 12 years doing it? No teenager spends that much time doing teenager things, let alone the same thing.


The irony is that MLC Mr J end up with far more responsability and expenses than pre-MLC Mr J. The MLC version has: full time job, DJing, radio show, record label and working for another record label, dead expensive fancy flat, lots of social commitments etc.

Is he ever going to get in touch with his pre-MLC self?  Does he have the courage and persistence to reclaim his sensibility, integrity and an adult way of living?  Is he staying in the replay phase because he can?  Is this perfectly good enough way of living for him?

I don't know. I know he can change and grow. He did for all the time we were together. And, of course, he changed into the MLC self. He can probably stay in the Replay phase forever. However, he does not like that life. It is also obvious he is not a happy, fulfilled man.

But, is it really a case of having missed things when young? I don't think so. At least it is not for everyone. I know a few real life MLCers who missed nothing as teens, in a couple of cases they took the teen/young adult lifestyle well into their 20's, up to early 30's. They are having, or had, a MLC.


"- How could a person change so much?" - MLC depression.

"- Were MLC traits always within the MLCer, waiting for the right time to pop out and this is their authentic selves?" - The MLC person is not the authentic self. If it was, MLCers would not revert to normal. Were the MLC traits inside and blew with MLC? Maybe, maybe not. Depression causes many changes. Drinking and lack of sleep also so. Mr J MLC self includes all three.

"- Why do they stay in their miserable state?" - I don't know.

"- Are they really miserable or is that our wishful thinking?" - They are. It ends up showing physically, no happy person treats people the way they treat LBS, does the things MLCers do. Out of the fog MLCers never say they were happy while in there. They talk of darkeness, etc.

"- What does it take for them to step out the fog?  Is there such a thing as rock bottom?" - I don't know. There is such a thing as rock bottom, but it does not seem to hit all MLCers. Or, if it does, it is different from MLCer to MLCer.´

Title: Re: Growth For A New Half Century
Post by: Acorn on February 11, 2019, 01:59:05 PM
A lot to unpack here, Anjae.  I need to read it again to absorb it all but just wanted to say the following quote was exactly my H as well.

Quote
Acorn, it could be said Mr J missed normal teenage things. But if so, it was by his own choice. No one told him he had to be into the things he was and be the way he was. He could had been like most teens if he wished to. He never wanted to. He was not forced to have his, or ours, creative projects, to date me, etc. He choose to.   
Title: Re: Growth For A New Half Century
Post by: Anjae on February 11, 2019, 02:36:07 PM
Will be looking forward to read you, Acorn.

Allow me to add:

a) some of the real life MLCers who didn't miss a thing when young lead the full sex, drugs, drink & rock'n'roll lifestyle, in one case literally since he was a rock photographer.

b) my cousin who had MLC was like Mr J and your husband. Cousin's reason was age. His friends had this that and those and, at age 37, he only had X.

c) Mr J said at BD that he only had now to do "this (this was never explained"). Afterwards things would go back to normal, including us being a couple. He wanted my help him to do "this". "This" and "now" have been going on for more than 12 years.
Title: Re: Growth For A New Half Century
Post by: Acorn on February 11, 2019, 05:16:05 PM
I must say Mr.J is an enigma. 
What I shared about my H and his ‘missing’ teenage experiences is the only possible explanation I could offer.  I was a good girl and didn’t get up to any mischief.  I worked hard at school and practiced piano.  I don’t feel that I missed out on anything.  H also focused on studies and didn’t think that he missed out anything till he hit MLC and he changed his mind about it.   He proceeded to do something about his missing bits of teenage years in a most drastic and destructive way. 

Who knows what made Mr.J get into crisis and seemingly stuck in Replay... 
My grandma would say he got himself into a hole and cannot get out of it - His feet are stuck in the mud and the mud dried around his feet.  That’s no way to live according to your description of his present life.  I hope he can find a bucket of water to soften the mud and get himself unstuck and crawl out of the hole.  I really do. 
Title: Re: Growth For A New Half Century
Post by: Anjae on February 11, 2019, 06:19:20 PM

I know what made Mr J get into MLC, the death of his paternal grandmother and not being told of the funeral until afterwards. FIL was supposed to let Mr J know, he never did. After the funeral, not seeing us there, SIL asked FIL if he called Mr J. He hadn't. SIL called. Mr J got very, very angry at FIL.

That was late Spring/early Summer 2005. Of course I only put two and two together years after BD.

From his paternal grandmother's death onwards, Mr J start to have strange behaviours. At first, nothing too odd. In hindsight, it shows how things progressed.


It could be Mr J missed out on teenager things. If he did, he was not aware of it pre-MLC. In MLC, who knows what he is aware of. Probably not much, if anything.

After MLC he may know.

Your grandmother would be right. Mr J got himself into a hole and cannot get out of it. And, sadly, he keep digging that hole deeper and deeper as his crisis went by. His constant anger doesn't help either. I also hope he can find a way of coming out the hole


Mr J is not the only enigma. Mr Xyzcf, Mr Trustandlove and a few others also are. In a way, all long time MLCers are a mystery/enigma.
Title: Re: Growth For A New Half Century
Post by: Trustandlove on February 11, 2019, 11:17:36 PM
I smiled again at your post, Anjae -- Mr T&L is certainly an enigma :)

The latest thing I read in last weekend's papers talked about attachment style -- avoidant or anxious, I think the spectrum ends were.

Throughout this mess it has come to me again and again that the most important thing to Mr. T&L seems to be to be separate from us; he is a class A avoider.  It's all the same things we say, that I show him too much of the mirror, that he doesn't want the commitment, the attachment, the showing his inner self, call it what you will. 

But again, that is only yet another way for me/us to try to understand something that really isn't understandable.  All I can say is that he used to be different, or that at the very least I believed him when he acted and spoke very differently for many, many years. 

It comes down to the same thing, he finds something to keep him from having to think too much or to have to face himself, and if he does ever come up against something unpleasant or sees a reaction in me or the children that points out something unpleasant, he can say that our reaction is the problem, rather than his behaviour.  Unfortunately something we see too much of, though. 

And on we go...
Title: Re: Growth For A New Half Century
Post by: Anjae on February 12, 2019, 01:32:44 AM
Hi Trust,

Nice to know my post made you smile. I really find long time MLCers an enigma.

Mr J was a class A clinger at first. Then he avoided, avoided, avoided.

We do show them the mirror and they don't like. They also seem afraid of letting their inner self out. Or maybe the inner self is trying to come out, but not managing?

Mr J also always finds something to keep himself busy and not having to face things.

...

Saw Mr J's reply to my answer to his reply. It was shorter and less agressive in tone. That he didn't mean we have to meet in person, that other people could do it - if so, why did he first said he would be here, but I could have someone of my trust meeting him? No idea.

That he wanted to exchange things - there is nothing to exchange until joint property is split. Personal effects don't count.

That he would not rebook the meeting and that he didn't wanted me to contact him about my heeirlom or any other matters. Of course he does not. He has nearly all our joint things, he sold and gave away joing things without asking me if I was OK with it or giving me half of the money, etc.

At least, he is no longer angry about those fanzines I must have and had lend to the big collective exhibition that was held here a few months ago and that had always been at MIL.  ::)

I send him a longer e-mail. Saying several things. That he does not get to pick one day, place and time without consulting me first because he does not know about my life, like I don't know his.

That personal things cannot be exchanged by joint things. The first belong only to their owner, the second to both and have to be split, or exchange for an equivalent thing we both agree on. That he sold and gave away joint property without consulting me and without giving half the money.

That he may not understand what joint meant. Gave him a couple of examples of things he thinks are his alone, but aren't, saying I have no interest in them, so he has to give me half their value or something equivalent. That he was disrespectful both in deciding alone when he would come here and by not wanting to book another meeting as well as by selling and giving away joint things without consulting me and slip the money.

That I understood why he didn't want more contact about matters, it would mean talking about things he has no interest him debating/spilt, but that we would have to do it. That to slip our things a full list would had to be made, etc. And that we didn't had to do it now, but that it would had to be done.

Most of it may not register, but he will have the e-mail. As usual, I bcc the e-mail to my lawyer. He keeps sending e-mails without any cc or bcc.

I used a nice tone, lots of for example, as well as saying that there are options, including for his coming here on the 24th. Since none of us have to be present, leaving things at SIL as I have suggested would be a good option. Or I could ask one of my brother if they are available, but he would not come here, but to them. Or them to him.

Of course he only seems interested in coming here to the house. Why refuse to leave things at SIL? I don't know.

He has said I don't know who many times before not to contact him. I usually don't. And I probably will let a while go by before I do again. Now, what happened to his burning desire of having those old magazines? No longer wants them? MLCers, phew.  ::)
Title: Re: Growth For A New Half Century
Post by: readytofixmyselffirst on February 12, 2019, 11:36:20 AM
Quote
Mr J is not the only enigma. Mr Xyzcf, Mr Trustandlove and a few others also are. In a way, all long time MLCers are a mystery/enigma.

Yes, I still can't explain or even begin to understand my ex. For three years, I was the monster, the source of all her ails. We divorce and she moves away. Haven't heard from her in five years.

It's very easy to get caught up searching for answers to things we may never understand. How can one with a flip of a switch, leave one's family, turn everyone's world upside down? Waste thousands of dollars, start a new relationship with often an equally messed up person- even to the point of having children with this new person- all for the sake of one's new pursuit of happiness.

It would be like if I gave up my great job, forgot all my plans, and told the family I would be happier if I was homeless. Bought myself a tent, sleeping bag, and a few items before I ambled off into the urban jungle.

Even MLCer's that come back have trouble explaining their thought process other than it seemed they were in a fog. That they couldn't explain their own actions or really confront their own actions.

I still try to think through my own actions and if I had zigged instead of zagged? Would things be different? From my own observations, my ex is still deep in the hole. Her own actions are surprisingly still the same. Meandering from job to job. Complaining that the boss is mean to her and still online with others.

Will I ever figure her out? Probably not and maybe that's why I stopped my stand. It took some time and many hits, but I finally reached a point where I asked myself, "Is this other person really somebody I want back in my life?" Not for the kids, but for me....because the Ready prior to MLC is not the Ready now.

Prior to MLC, I would have given in to her demands and issues. Today, I would stand my ground, there would be boundaries and accountability. You don't have a marriage where one person works 80 hours a week and the other picks and chooses their activities and chores. Yes, my MLCer may have come back, but it would be a far different world.

I am not saying this out of anger- but as an LBSer, I focused on me and making changes that made me a better person and partner.

Truly if my ex came back to me today, she could easily say that I am an enigma too!

I am glad that you are standing firm and not letting Mr. J get his way.

((((Hugs)))
Ready
Title: Re: Growth For A New Half Century
Post by: Anjae on February 12, 2019, 05:06:59 PM
Hi Ready,

I'm not caught up searching for answers the way newbies are. It has been 12 plus years of Mr J's MLC. For me it is a case of scientific curiosity regarding long time, and very long time MLCers.

There must be some difference why some MLCers have short, or medium, crisis, and others remain in MCL for 10 or more years.

If, at least, MLCers were happy. They aren't. The new life, OW/OM, etc. do not bring happiness. So, it must be the LBS, who, in many cases, the MLCers hasn't seen in years.

I'm not standing. Never was. Mr J is neither part of my life or part of my life plans. But, there are still legal and other issues that need to be sorted. And never are. Because his MCL mind/self does not get things. Or thinks he can do as he pleases and everything belongs to him. Phew.

No idea what Mr J would say about me if he would come back today. It makes no difference. He is, and isn't an enigma. The enigma is  the leght of his crisis. Other than that, he is like all MLCers, chasing happiness that never comes, angry, unhappy, etc. Not someone I would want in my life.

I am so changed and so different that, even if Mr J would revert to his former self, I doubt he would fit.

Hugs
Title: Re: Growth For A New Half Century
Post by: Anjae on March 28, 2019, 01:09:01 PM
I forgot to post earlier. For those interested there is a new Oprah & Deepak meditatio: https://chopracentermeditation.com

It started Monday and is about manifesting grace through gratitute. Each meditation is available for five days. I'm finding it quite interesting.
Title: Re: Growth For A New Half Century
Post by: Treasur on March 28, 2019, 09:17:08 PM
Thanks, Anjae.
Title: Re: Growth For A New Half Century
Post by: Anjae on April 15, 2019, 04:15:49 PM
Latest Meditation challange done. It was about manifesting grace through gratitute and it had some hard parts for a LBS. It was quite interesting.

I am not so zen that I am able to say there is no right or wrong, but, for the most, part, I like the ideas several of which are usable in real life.

Other than that it is peak Champions League season. Quarter finals and Porto's home team, FCP is playing Liverpool Wednesday. We lost in Liverpool and they are a better side, but lets see what happens.

Game of Thrones is back for the final time and it will be six weeks of intrigue, battle(s), and some people with redeeming story arcs, like Jaime Lannister.

There are also several family birthdays these week, including grandmother's who, if she was alive, would be 99 and most likely there will be an Easter dinner at mum's.
Title: Re: Growth For A New Half Century
Post by: readytofixmyselffirst on April 15, 2019, 04:44:31 PM
Quote
Latest Meditation challange done. It was about manifesting grace through gratitute and it had some hard parts for a LBS.

That is something I would like to bring into my life. Meditation combined with exercise would be so powerful for my socio-emotional health. Just got to get focused.

Quote
I am not so zen that I am able to say there is no right or wrong, but, for the most, part, I like the ideas several of which are usable in real life.

I used to be so strong that there was only right or wrong. Now I see that there are many options and possibilities. To see outside of my lens and listen to others.

It's not easy, but I make the attempt.

I am also glad GOT is back. I thought the first episode did a lot to set up the coming episodes. Hope you enjoyed it.

Have a good one (((((Hugs))))))

Ready

Title: Re: Growth For A New Half Century
Post by: Anjae on April 15, 2019, 05:01:24 PM
That is something I would like to bring into my life. Meditation combined with exercise would be so powerful for my socio-emotional health. Just got to get focused.

Why not give it a try again? I like the guided meditations Oprah & Deepak do because there is more than just the meditation. I can do non-guided one, but I value learning something other than meditate. I have incorporate light/mild exercise a few years ago. I can't run (bad knee). Walking and light dumbbell are great, but I want to work on flexibility/stretching as well.

There is more than just right and wrong. In meditation we are tought that right and wrong do not exist. That, I do not agree with. If right and wrong do not exist law and courts wouldn't be necessary. Cheating and abuse would be right(or at least not wrong), murder would be right (or at least no wrong), etc. There are lawyers between right and wrong, but some things are wrong and others right.

I am a little disappointed with GOT dialogue. It has suffered from a couple of seasons. No more source material to go by. At times the dialogue was like a silly romantic comedy (I like good romantic comedies). Still, as entertainment goes, not bad at all.  :)

Hugs,
A
Title: Re: Growth For A New Half Century
Post by: Anjae on April 17, 2019, 03:52:45 PM
Champions League quarter-finals done and FCP, my home team is out. Liverpool was much, much better. Now, bring on the final Liverpool-Barcelona, never mind that there are other two teams still standing.  ::) ;D

Just writing down some things I noticed with Mr J. I have no idea what they mean, but they are different.

He is back to cut his hear regularly. A thing he did before MLC and for a while after he left, but had put aside for years. He never had his hair long, just let it grow more than usual. Same with the beard.

Mr J and OW1 are back in contact after 11 years and a few months since they broke. There has not been contact between them before. They are all over Facebook, posting to each other, including comments that involve lots of hearts. For the most part the comments say nothing, just hearts.

No idea if it more than just silly stuff, if OW1 is still married - she married years ago, if OW2 really returned a couple of months ago or where Mr J is currently living. He seemed to be moving in February.

Whatver, he is still in MLC, still djing, still attached to his djing and clubbing friends and other MLC friends.
Title: Re: Growth For A New Half Century
Post by: readytofixmyselffirst on April 18, 2019, 09:40:14 AM
Quote
They are all over Facebook, posting to each other, including comments that involve lots of hearts. For the most part the comments say nothing, just hearts.

It's a sign of a very true, deep, and mature relationship. LOL

Anjae, based upon your timeline and I look at mine as well, is it possible to conclude there is a change or MLCers will never emerge from their tunnels?

Just asking,

(((hugs)))

Ready
Title: Re: Growth For A New Half Century
Post by: Acorn on April 18, 2019, 12:04:07 PM
Quote
They are all over Facebook, posting to each other, including comments that involve lots of hearts. For the most part the comments say nothing, just hearts.   

You sure you are not talking about your little nephew?  ;D
It makes me squirm just to read about 💕😍🥰
Title: Re: Growth For A New Half Century
Post by: Anjae on April 18, 2019, 05:11:21 PM
It's a sign of a very true, deep, and mature relationship. LOL

Isn't it? Think they're 10 or something.  ::)

Anjae, based upon your timeline and I look at mine as well, is it possible to conclude there is a change or MLCers will never emerge from their tunnels?

Both, Ready. When all of us old timers come to HS, RCR had MLC at 2-5 years. Time showed us that MLC lasts for more than 5 years. Stayed has a friend whose husband showed up 9 years after he left and Savoir Faire has a friend whose husband is coming out of MLC after 15 years and reconnecting with his LBS.

My view always was that most MLCers get out of MLC, but the most couples will not reconcile because the LBS will not want to for a number of reasons. If I think most MLCers get out of MLC, a few never will.

There is change with Mr J. The regular hair cuts, starting using my name again since early 2016, even OW1 back in the picture after 11 years of no contact. He is still in the tunnel, but something is shifting. What, I do not know.

You sure you are not talking about your little nephew?  ;D

My little 18 months nephew? Think he still does not know how to use Facebook ...  ;) ;D ;D ;D The 13 years old one seems to prefer playstation and computer/mobile games to such saccharine stuff. Now, my liffle female 10 years old second cousin likes that sort of things. It is how she and her girlfriends write. Maybe we can conclude Mr J and OW1 are both two 10 years old girls?  ::) ;D ;D ;D ;D

It makes me squirm just to read about 💕😍🥰

Those emojis, Acorn.  ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D

I laugh more than I squirm. It is so ridiculous. And what comes to mind is my 10 years old second cousin. Who is going to spend the night and maand is being a riot. She is 10, so she is allowed.  :)
Title: Re: Growth For A New Half Century
Post by: kikki on April 19, 2019, 04:13:45 PM
Hi Anjae
Thought I'd bring your question over to your thread :)  The boys are all doing well thanks.  S#1 is living and working in Australia, but is back for a holiday and his graduation.
S's # 2 and 3 are still here and doing well.  More out than at home these days though with work and social lives/girlfriends.

S#3 went through what his brothers went through when they were 20-21ish.  Extreme sadness about the limited ability of their Dad to connect to them and to be a functioning parent. They all did a lot of comparing how he acts to how their friend's dads act.  It's been a bit of a process, but like us all, they kind of come to some sort of acceptance that this is how things are.

By all accounts their Dad looks pretty miserable unless he's on a high from a recent work project or the incessant overseas work trips.

12 years, such a very long time for you.  I know this is a bit like hitting your head against a brick wall, but is there any way you can come to an agreement between you both?  We found a round table with our accountant of all people, got things wrapped up.  It was a safe place that was also 'public' (in their offices).  The lawyers then drafted up the agreement that we had written during the round table.
It of course all needed to be framed as a benefit to the MLCer, otherwise he would never have agreed to it.  They seem to love inflicting trauma and finalising an agreement takes that power away from them.

The real benefit was to myself.  Being able to distance myself from the MLC triangulation has enabled me to detach enormously and to not be as triggered by the trauma that we all went through.

Wishing you all the very best Anjae
Title: Re: Growth For A New Half Century
Post by: Anjae on April 19, 2019, 05:02:05 PM
Hi Kikki,

Thank you for the news on the boys. Glad to know they are doing well.

It may be possible to have some agreement between us. Not sure how it would went. In February I got monster again when I told Mr J he had sold joing property without consulting me and that he had to give me half the money. He was nast and awful.

I will not be in any round table with Mr J. Whatever way it will be done, it will be at a distance.

In acouple of weeks I will try to start to sort things by the easiest ones, poster art and big art pieces. I do not want any of the poster art, a thing I already let Mr J knew. He will have to give half the value of the joint one and the full money of the one that is just money, there are some pieces that are also only his. I will sent an e-mail about the matter.

And will again ask for half the money of our joint items he sold in February. Problem is I have no idea for how much he sold them. These things are big and few. The thousands of records, book and material that have cultural and historical value on top of its real one are a headache. Mr J says he lost several, but never supplied a list of what was lost. I asked again in February, no reply.

The big money Mr J owns me he is not ready for it and that if for lawyers, it is not assets based, but in legal issues regarding marriage and adultery. An accountant will not deal with those. I have an idea of a figure, but it will have to be legally backed.

Ah, yes, have to frame it as a benefit for the MLCer. Not sure how that would be, because he is the one who has to pay, which is not seen as a benefit to him. I do not want to go down the blackmail route. It is ugly and it does not suit me. I don't want to have to get to the point where it will be told, you either pay or everyone will be let know you are a domestic abuser. He will love face, DJ sets, etc. And it may backfire big time. And it is low, dirty and ugly.

All the best to you as well, Kikki.
Title: Re: Growth For A New Half Century
Post by: kikki on April 19, 2019, 05:08:37 PM
Hi Anjae
The not wanting to lose face was exactly the reason I cottoned onto the fact that he is always much better behaved when there is someone else in the room. 
Emails they can ignore or monster at you.
I kick myself for not understanding this pattern much earlier on.

At a round table, in front of someone else, they are not willing to do so and appear to want to be the good guy.

Quote
The big money Mr J owns me he is not ready for it and that if for lawyers, it is not assets based, but in legal issues regarding marriage and adultery. An accountant will not deal with those. I have an idea of a figure, but it will have to be legally backed.
Do you mind me asking why the wait for dealing with this?
Likely has something to do with your laws, but this protracted timeframe can't be positive for your health and wellbeing.
Title: Re: Growth For A New Half Century
Post by: Anjae on April 19, 2019, 05:40:03 PM
Kikki, there has been someone else in the room, our lawyers and even judges. Nothing was solved.

They can ignore e-mails, but mine are always Bcc to my lawyer.

Have you forgot that there has been two court divorce cases, plus my request for temporary alimony (that the judge denied because Mr J needed to lead a dignified life  ::)), plus talks between the lawyers, plus my suggestion for mediation early 2008, that Mr J did not want, plus I don't know how many other things? And that Mr J didn't show to several court appointments and was fined by the court? He even skiped meetings with his lawyers.

He does not care if he looks bad. If he did, he would had accepted to divorce early on when judges were involved and he was face to face with them and the lawyers.

I will really not seat with him on a round table or any other place. There will be no face to face.

It is far healthier for me not to have deals of any sort with Mr J than try to have any. My anxiety and stress were through the roof when there were talks, courts, etc. Since I said no more courts, etc. my anxiety and stress reduced a lot.

The simple idea of having to seat in a room with Mr J, even if other people are present, leaves me ill and shaking. It will not happen. I do not want to see him and I have the right of not want to see him. E-mailing is bad enough.
Title: Re: Growth For A New Half Century
Post by: kikki on April 19, 2019, 06:07:49 PM
We each need to do what is best for us Anjae. 
No, I haven't forgotten the process you have been through.  It has been horrendous. 
Hoping for resolution for you, but it's not making sense to me how that is going to happen.
Not meaning to offend you Anjae. 
If you know how you will achieve that, then that is all that matters.

As before, I wish you all the very best in achieving that resolution.
hugs Kikki
Title: Re: Growth For A New Half Century
Post by: Anjae on April 19, 2019, 06:18:41 PM
I don't know if I will achieve that. It was something that I had almost forgot until I saw Mr J selling joint things. In time, it may all get sorted out.

Dealing with Mr J remains very bad for me. SIL would be a possibility, but Mr J does not want her as the go-between.

Mr J knows why I do not want to meet him face to face and understands and accepts it. That is progress.

Maybe when Mr J crisis calms down a bit more it will be easier. I will send the e-mails about those art pieces with no expectations. We have to start somewhere.
Title: Re: Growth For A New Half Century
Post by: Laugh or Cry on April 19, 2019, 07:00:31 PM
There is no doubt in my mind that that man has given you every reason in the world to feel whatever you feel about him and the possibility of seeing him face-to-face. My only advice, for what it's worth, is that if he can make you feel that dismayed about being in his presence, he is still making you a victim. When the day comes that he can no longer create any negative feelings in you, either in general or about being in his presence, that's the day that you win!
Title: Re: Growth For A New Half Century
Post by: Anjae on April 19, 2019, 07:41:32 PM
No, Laugh and Cry, he is not making me feel a victim. I saw him by change in a social setting early last year. I said hit to him and felt nothing. OW2 was there with SIL, I smiled, made small talk with SIL and that was it.

Both of us stayed for 20 or so minutes on our own, side by side, reading, on the court waiting room back in October 2014. I felt nothing.

Mr J was physically abusive and remains nasty monster - no, he was not going to lose it the court waiting room. Unless you have ever dealt with a physically and otherwise abusive  MLCer you cannot understand how it is to try to deal with one. Nothing to do with being a victim, it is a trigger. It is also knowing, but the e-mails from last February, he is not ready to deal and that he still monsters and get nasty if anything is to be sorted.

LBS have triggers for tiny things and no one tells them they are being a victim. Why on earth those of us who were nearly killed but the MLCer are told we are victims because we don't want to see the MLCer is beyond me.

I have long won. I cut him off. I have no feelings for him. I still have the right of not wanting to be in a room with him. A right I would like respected. People telling me I should meet, or this or that a man that was physically abusive is a bit silly.
Title: Re: Growth For A New Half Century
Post by: LearningIamOk on April 22, 2019, 06:30:07 PM
Anjae, I completely understand you not wanting to be near Mr. J. My xH was not violent, but he is not very civil and has a lot of anger. I don't want to be near him either. I cut lots of toxic people out of my life, including him. I would never go near Condo Carl if he had ever been violent. I think it would unnerve me to be in close quarters with him if that was our history.
Title: Re: Growth For A New Half Century
Post by: Anjae on April 23, 2019, 02:43:06 PM
Hi Learning,

I don't go physically near Mr J, we live more than 300km apart. At times, because many things still aren't solved, e-mail contact happens.

Most of the time I forget he exists. Maybe a day will come when we will be able to meet and sort thing out peacefully. I would like that to happen, because it would be much more pleasant.

Right now, and since a good while ago, there are far more interesting things in my mind. And nicer people in my life.
Title: Re: Growth For A New Half Century
Post by: LearningIamOk on April 23, 2019, 02:53:56 PM
Happy to hear that you surround yourself with good people. I have made so many wonderful friends since BD. My silver lining to everything else that has happened. 
Title: Re: Growth For A New Half Century
Post by: Anjae on April 23, 2019, 03:26:11 PM
Also happy to know you have also made good new friends.

Horrible BD and the rest of the lot is/was, LBS end up with new friends and several with a new partner. Which is good, we cannot let MLC rob us of what we want to do in life.

Yes, financial issues can hinder several things we would like to do, but there are many things that do cost money, frienship is one of them.

Some of the new friendships were made on HS. So much for internet friends aren't real friends.

Do you know when MLC/your MLCer really is no longer a priority? When the next episode of Game of Thrones is all you are looking forward.  ;) ;D ;D ;D
Title: Re: Growth For A New Half Century
Post by: Anjae on July 05, 2019, 11:07:48 AM
Update before someone archives my thread.

Not much to update. I have been reading a lot and doing things I like.
Title: Re: Growth For A New Half Century
Post by: Ready2Transform on July 05, 2019, 11:39:28 AM
Yay! :) That sounds like a pretty good update to me.
Title: Re: Growth For A New Half Century
Post by: Anjae on July 05, 2019, 11:54:37 AM
Yay! :) That sounds like a pretty good update to me.

Agree.  :)
Title: Re: Growth For A New Half Century
Post by: LearningIamOk on July 06, 2019, 07:30:28 AM
I can't even find anything of mine to bump up. Not that there is anything to update. LOL

Glad you are keeping busy.
Title: Re: Growth For A New Half Century
Post by: Acorn on July 06, 2019, 07:34:52 AM
Update before someone archives my thread.

Not much to update. I have been reading a lot and doing things I like.

Perfect!   :)

Title: Re: Growth For A New Half Century
Post by: Anjae on July 06, 2019, 05:23:31 PM
Perfect!   :)

 :)
Title: Re: Growth For A New Half Century
Post by: Anjae on July 15, 2019, 03:05:53 PM
There is a new Oprah & Deepak 21-Day Meditation Experience/Challange called Miraculous Relationships if you guys are interested: http://chopracentermeditation.com