[Flummoxed]

Amazinglove- can I just say that you truly are amazing? I know you are all processing the emotions and going through things one day at a time as we all are, but you are moving forward with such strength and awareness and I think that truly is phenomenal.

I do want to ask that you please don’t put this situation on you. There is truly no way you could have known that an MLC would come out down the road. There is no way that could have been predicted. I have no doubt that you selected a kind, caring, respectful partner to live the rest of your life with. I feel like that’s what we all tried to do. But this is simply something that cannot be foreseen. We do not have control, whether to predict this may happen or any kind of any influence on the outcome. You are doing so brilliantly, but please don’t weigh yourself down even further with these stones too. Their weight is not yours to carry.

I think it’s great that you’re facing your emotions head on and working your way through them, unpacking it all. One day at a time, one stone at a time, until the pack is empty.

And I completely agree- no idea who would be attracted to such a confused and messed up individual… except for someone who is just as (if not more so) messed up. The hope is that, as they grow, they’ll see the situation for what it is. But it’s a user type of relationship - they each get something out of it. In my case, I think my STBXH is getting attention and flattery, but the AP has eyes on his finances. He’s already being pushed to get a job with better pay. Whatcha gonna do? He’s the one who has to see sense and clearly he’s not in the space to do that just yet.

However, I don’t doubt he has been holding things emotionally for years. It may not have been during the course of your relationship, but it likely could have been throughout his childhood. I know it was the case of both for my STBXH- severe people pleasing tendencies stemming from childhood trauma until I think he just snapped. Then used his childhood coping mechanisms to run. They didn’t process but rather repressed so much until eventually it became too much and blew. But, hopefully, with time they’ll be able to synthesize it all, put the pieces back together, and become a stronger version of themselves. If they do the work, which is a huge if.

Ok, sorry for the novel- I just want to let you know you’re doing amazingly. I am sorry that this is happening, but you and the kiddos are doing so great making your way through this chaos. Sending love!

[Treasur]

I agree about that Shame Rock.
It can feel like a heavy one, can’t it? Along with the Stupid Rock lol. And the How Could I Not Have Seen Rock.
I suspect most of us LBS carried those rocks for at least a little while. Perhaps we need to give them a good look in order to cut off the bits of the rocks that really belong to us and the bits that really don’t?

As I get older, it’s easier to see a couple of things.
The first is that there are a lot of tremendously kind and decent humans out there, people who behave well and honestly when they don’t have to or when no-one is even looking. I don’t make them do that and they don’t do it bc of me; they do it bc that’s their way of navigating life. But there are lots of them. They just don’t make as much noise and mess as the disordered.

And secondly, if I’m not responsible for the choices of good quality humans, or the cause of that, why would I be any more responsible for the not so great humans? Bc that’s also their way of navigating life, isn’t it? And we don’t get it bc that’s usually simply not how WE are wired, so often we find their behaviour literally inconceivable. Which most humans find a bit uncomfortable, even a bit scary..  it’s hard and unusual to foresee what we find literally inconceivable surely? We humans are designed to see and assume patterns, to see the world from inside out, to assume that tomorrow will be much like today.

Until we can’t or don’t.
And then we have to adjust our eye and our focus.
Imho that’s true about a lot of things in life…you don’t know what it’s like to be told you have a serious health problem until you do, or to lose your job, or have financial struggles, or watch someone you love take their last breath. Or win the lottery or give birth or watch your child graduate.
We can’t know until we know. We might speculate, but we can’t KNOW.

The intersection for most of us LBS is probably more about what we do when we DO know. Imho that is more often our own source of shame or regret….the things we did or failed to do as we started to see that something or someone was not entirely as we thought it was. The trade offs we made in trying to navigate that.

I used to be a bit sniffy about denial, but nowadays I see it more as a bit of a survival mechanism. We try to keep seeing what we need to see bc it’s too big or too scary or too overwhelming to jump straight to the far end of inconceivable. Most of us imho do it in steps rather than one mighty bound. Bc that’s the way we need to do it to get through it. Not bc we are stupid or delusional or deceitful or cowardly. Just bc it is so big and life altering that we have to cut the reality elephant up into bite sized pieces. And on the way, most of us see and do and say things that we well might say and do and see quite differently at a later stage.

Imho it’s normal and healthy to trust the people we love who claim to be trustworthy. Who behave that way often for years and years. Until they don’t. None of us are God or Doctor Who with a Time Machine. And there’s no shame or foolishness in that imho. I have no idea actually how one would form any kind of long term relationship, let alone a marriage, without some of those basic assumptions. I genuinely do not know how I could have married my former husband if I had approached it assuming that he might do some of what he did to me and my family…I couldn’t even imagine it so how could I have foreseen it? Am I to blame for my failure to imagine it?

The shame and personal accountability for breaking trust, for betraying that implied ‘deal’ is not ours to own. It belongs with the person who chose that course of action as a way to navigate their own life. But of course often that’s the very thing they are trying to avoid bc it’s damned uncomfortable. And bc it requires our better angels and their pockets are emptier than we ever imagined. And bc we are wired to see life differently. And perhaps bc there is an alluring illusion that if we own something we can fix it, control it or protect ourselves from it. All very normal for normal humans imho lol.

Which is not to say that - if we are being honest and accurate - that we LBS don’t have little bits of those big rocks that we do own. That we look at in order, not to beat ourselves up, but to plot and navigate a different course once we find that we have sailed to the edge of the known map and fallen off into uncharted waters. Once we see that we are just not in Kansas anymore ha ha. I would guess that most of us here look back on some of what we thought or did initially, and feel a bit foolish in what we allowed or explained away or tried to work with.

I’ve been sorting through photos here and those around BD fill me with nothing but compassion and respect for that Treasur….she was wrong about a lot but my goodness she was brave and generous and honest…but she looks so grey and thin and broken by it all. In different circumstances, or with a different outcome, a lot of it would be rather admirable tbh. And no one was there to look most of the time; it wasn’t done to impress. It would feel quite wrong to be ashamed of her or blame her for not knowing what she didn’t know. She tried her best and adapted as she went along, she made mistakes, lots of them, but she did very little that she could not have been honest and open about what and why. My then h simply could not have said the same bc there were too many lies on his side of the street - but I was never responsible for someone else’s lies or unkindness and I’m not now. And neither are you.

As always, jmo.

[Treasur]

And a PS bc I found myself thinking about those rocks on my morning walk…..

There is sometimes quite energetic and heartfelt discussion here about forgiveness, in the sense of forgiving our ex/spouses. Those who trespass against us, right?

Again jmo, but I think the harder yet more constructive thing is to gradually find a way to forgive ourselves for anything associated with those darned rocks. Nearly always, we LBS did the best we could with the cards in our hands and based on what we then knew. I made a ton of schoolgirl errors, some before BD and many post BD and since. And I sometimes feel ashamed or stupid or a bit of a failure about some of those.

But you know what is also true?
I would have felt blessed if I’d had a spouse who dug that deep in the darkest times. I would have applauded the courage and real heart of someone else in a situation like mine who had kept so much optimism and grace and kindness. I would have admired someone else doing most of what I did in those circumstances even if I had also wanted them to take better care of themselves. I did not lie or steal or do things to hurt or diminish or consciously damage other humans - in fact there was lots of times when I intentionally chose to step back from the opportunities to do so. To behave towards others etc etc. And I did that pretty consistently when I was in tremendous distress. Was I perfect? Gosh, no. But I tried so hard to be fair and honest and kind. The person who took the most damage tbh was me.

I doubt (ha ha, I’m assuming lol) that you would listen to the details of my situation and bash me over the head with some of those rocks. Would you tell me (or even think silently) that I was a damned idiot for ever marrying my h or trusting his intent towards me? In sharing my ‘worldly goods’? In not foreseeing some of the crazy s$it that happened? In not being able to override someone else’s choices? Or that I deserved it in some way or was responsible for things I didn’t know about or could not control?

I doubt you would. I think you’d hug me and say you were so sorry that this awful thing had happened. That it had happened around me not bc of me. That you were proud of all those brave things I did when I was on my knees. And that you were going to cheer me on as I found my own way to sail on uncharted waters.

Why would you not talk to you like (hopefully) you would talk to me?
Why would those rocks be relevant to you if you would not throw them in my bag?
Why would you deserve less grace than you would offer someone like me? (Bc there is a reason why my little grey cat is called Grace lol)

Just a thought xxx

[Biscuit]

This …

 I would have felt blessed if I’d had a spouse who dug that deep in the darkest times. I would have applauded the courage and real heart of someone else in a situation like mine who had kept so much optimism and grace and kindness. I would have admired someone else doing most of what I did in those circumstances even if I had also wanted them to take better care of themselves. I did not lie or steal or do things to hurt or diminish or consciously damage other humans - in fact there was lots of times when I intentionally chose to step back from the opportunities to do so. To behave towards others etc etc. And I did that pretty consistently when I was in tremendous distress.

Really resonated- thanks Treasur

[amazinglove]

Well a lot has happened, and yet, it's still much the same I guess.

I served my H with divorce papers last week. He was here with us (and has been for the past 3 weeks) so I ran out for a Starbucks at the time I knew the process server was nearby. I wasn't sure of his reaction but I guess it was what I expected. Despite telling him i was doing this many times, he was shocked, and he cried. I told him he had made his choice and now I was choosing myself, also that I could not live a lie and had no choice. He accepted it, he is not contesting it, arguing with it or indeed he refused to even read or look at them once he was served. It says on there I have sole custody and there is zero community property to be split, and as everything is in my name, that will mean it will remain mine.

The kids have been so happy to have him here. It has been the best visit they've had with their dad since all of this really kicked off a year ago. He has been better at staying engaged and present. There were of course moments where he slipped into the kind of grouchy, negative guy he is now, but mostly he kept it together. We have had 3 bathroom renovations going on while he's been here and he's helped me a lot with that. He's been running to tile places etc and I think he's felt good to be useful and have something to do. He tends to focus on ways to be productive (cleaning up the garden, washing and servicing the car etc) so he can leave again and not come back for a few months with less guilt.

My son (7) has been showing signs of the strain of the impending departure. it is heartbreaking really. The other day my H was clearly feeling guilty ab it and chose the opportunity to kind of list off the reasons why our marriage broke down (spoiler alert it's all my fault). It was so mean spirited - mainly and exclusively insulting our sex life (and my lack of interest it which is why he turned to his old flame- my fault for turning him down a bunch of times). For the record there were also times he turned me down. The thing is, if we were one of those couples who never had sex  (like months or years at a time) I could almost see it, but we were not. The truth is, I was less attracted to him the last year because he was a giant baby and completely selfish in bed and otherwise. He detached and was already in touch with her. I felt like when we had sex he wasn't even seeing me, I could have been anyone and I felt farther away from him after than I did before. I didn't want him. And instead of looking at why, he just ran completely. It hurt tho, what he was saying, it was like he said that he finally understood what good sex was now that he's with her! Talk about offensive.  And first of all, he had been with her years before me, so he clearly knew what it was and still he married me. I am determined not to let this hurt me after he is gone, which I'm sure was his intention - that and alleviating his own guilt.

This morning I reminded him that the next time we see each other we will be divorced. I leave for NY for work tomo and he leaves for his parents overseas on Tuesday. He said he will love me always but tbh the vibe i get is that has really moved on, in every way with his AP. I think he sees me like an old, comfortable shoe he used to like wearing. He is no longer grieving me. It is hard to feel all of that but at the same time it will help me as I try to help myself and move forward on my own. I guess I just wish it seemed harder for him to do this than it does.

He did say one thing this trip. He said that when he's with her, he misses our family, including me,  terribly but when he is here he cannot wait to leave and feels like he's in prison. He said he is never happy or has peace. I told him he is just running (he only buys one way tickets everywhere so as not to commit to a return time) from his own depression and he needs to stand still and face it. But nothing really lands. I realise that.

Tomo I will go to the airport as his wife but in 30-60 days (before I see him again) that will no longer be true. It's time to end this ugly charade he's forced me in to. He will go back to her and they are building a life together. I will continue to pick up the pieces of the one he blew up. I have hope for the future and I pray that I can find more peace and comfort as the days go onward. This will be my first Xmas without him in 15 years and the first ever for our kids - we will make it work. By next year this time hopefully I will be in a new home, with a fresh start. I am ready for some more change.

[Reinventing]

Amazinglove,

Regarding sex, it is yet another excuse. With time, it won't be new and exciting with her--once she's not the escape from himself and not something new.

This is a tough step, so be kind to yourself.

[Flummoxed]

Sending love, amazinglove- what an update. I agree with your belief regarding the sex subject- he felt the guilt but didn’t want to accept it so he lashed out at you to try to get you to feel the pain instead. His words are just that- words. And rationally speaking, I know you know that, but emotionally it’s a whole other ballgame, isn’t it? I think back to the Shocksis thread where she mentions the fog played a part in completely rewriting her sex life with her XH and masked everything about OM. The OM didn’t hold a candle.

I’m totally assuming, but it seems he believes “this is for the best”. I keep seeing this phrase in a bunch of recovered MLCer threads and my STBXH used the same phrasing at BD2. It’s great that he shared that he misses you all and you shared that truth dart. You’re right; it’s all that can be done. The rest is up to him.

I’m also dreading the holidays- this first season into uncharted waters. But new beginnings call for new traditions. Maybe creating new ornaments for the tree or exploring a holiday market close by?

I’m excited for the positive new changes and opportunities coming your way! 💗

[Trustandlove]

Hi, amazinglove,

Just a note from someone who has been here for ages -- my former H also told me that "now he finally knew what happiness was" when he was with OW5 -- this was when he decided to divorce me (he had been through 4 before that), clearly stating that I was completely at fault for his unhappiness.  He actually told me that the whole problem was me, and that he felt huge relief when he realised that and left. 

OW5 of course didn't last, neither did no. 6, who he was with when he finally divorced me, and who he married.  I've heard that he has broken up with no. 6 and is on the next one now, I can't even call her an OW. 

Just to say that it is exactly as you say -- they buy one-way tickets away rather than facing their own depression.  It's sad.  But we can't control it, it's taken me years and years to understand that. You are doing brilliantly.

Well done for making sure you and the children have everything you need -- that is a huge hurdle for many.  This is a crappy thing to be facing, but sorting the business side does make it easier.

x

[Treasur]

I agree with Reinventing that I hope you can see that, whatever the pros and cons and wherefores of it, this is a significant life transition and big transitions are hard on the spirit, so I hope you are treating yourself kindly. Imho at the early stage of big life transitions, the losses are easy to see while the gifts and gains can take a while to make themselves known. And Christmas can be a very triggery kind of season for many folks for many reasons, can’t it?

Does your h have to sign anything? Does he have a lawyer? I only ask bc these kind of ‘I have a sadz’ MLCers sometimes say they ‘accept’ something but drag their feet on doing their small part practically. And your stbxh evidently likes having both camps in play to some degree based on his behaviour. What happens if he does nothing? 

I agree with your instinct about his litany of blame. And his own ‘I’m not happy here or there’ thing is a man trying to scratch a relentless itch and failing all round, isn’t it? Remarkably Me Me of course and I hope you can take his words as the blah blah that they are; they really are no more than him emotionally vomiting out loud about his own mess. They say nothing reliable at all about you or his kids or even his magic happy next.

And sex? Well, if one took him at his word for a moment, what that’s actually saying is that in his view of marriage, the kind of sex he’s getting is more important than your children, more important than your previously shared life or financial well-being, and more important than honouring any sense of personal honour and promises made. I suspect that is not how you see marriage at all and tbh it’s a rather foolish hostage to fortune way to look at life writ large, isn’t it? It’s like listening to a teenage boy full of hormones and stupidity, and makes him as reliable as a grownup blancmange kind of man, doesn’t it? Not much of a prize for a grown up woman as he’s too old to lack even the physical benefits of a teenage sex-obsessed boy lol. But if that is what he thinks, the Moscow Mule - or any other woman - better keep rolling out some magic tricks to keep him entertained! And hope that nobody gets ill or tired or busy or y’know any of that real life s&it!


When’s he leaving? And, out of interest, are you intending to allow him to come back and intermittently shack up in your home for a few weeks at a time in future once you are divorced? Or do you see his spending time with the kids working differently in future? Bc tbh that’s how divorce tends to work, isn’t it, particularly when a parent chooses to live thousands of miles away, that a whole bunch of things are done differently? Well, unless you want to carry the weight of an xh as part of your life furniture forever lol. Or build an xh annex in your future garden. Perhaps that’s why God created Air B and B, ha ha, but I bet your stbxh has given no thought at all to how his spending time with the kids will work without your involvement, so good reason for you to think about it.

How are your kids doing? Any differences in how your daughter and your son are behaving? And what conversations, if any, have you had about how they think things will work after you are divorced? Or what they want or don’t want with regard to seeing their father? It’s so understandable that some part of you as a mother might want to sacrifice your own comfort for theirs….lots of LBS mums here get that….but imho there’s a risk in normalising things that are not actually based in reality. And boundaries are a fair and accurate reflection of change and transition, aren’t they? And apply to small humans as much as bigger ones.

Hope your trip went well and looking forward to hearing more about your plans for your next chapter and next home.

[KayDee]

I know it is sort of beside the point, because it IS just another justification, but his whole narrative about sex is so immature. It made my blood boil. Everyone knows that intimacy in long-term relationships changes from the initial fireworks, especially when other demands (kids, work, etc) increase. That's normal. And, anyway, it is usually replaced by something more intimate, giving and attentive of each other's needs. If things wane, as they can do, it is down to the couple to address together. NOT go and find someone else to boost the ego. Think about how one-sided that is. You were both missing out on sexual intimacy, but he can only think about his own needs. Then he does something so self-serving that it destroys your trust and he blames you. This is also a very tired, misogynistic trope. Man has to have an 'affair' because his needs are not being met at home. Bla bla bla. End Rant. But it is just a narrative he tells himself to justify his behaviour. And it's not even a very convincing one, is it?

IMO he feels 'free' with OW because he is not (yet....) being held to account for anything. He doesn't look at her and see all the destruction and pain he has caused. She's a nice new mirror (for now...). I doubt he has grieved your marriage. Honestly? He is still blaming things on others like a teenager. He doesn't have the strength to face himself even. You, on the other hand, have shown such strength and love, for yourself and your kids.