[NoRegrets]

What Chump Lady has written does not conflict with what we believe about MLC.

MLC is a character disorder.

Many here believe it is temporary. Many here believe that if they are not nice or compassionate about MLC, including understanding that the affair is a symptom of the character disorder, that the MLCer will not come back to the marriage.

Many here believe (want to believe but are conflicted, often) that the MLCer will one day heal him/herself of their character disorder and will be a full partner (not a patient or child-like character) in a mutually committed and closed relationship.

Each LBS has to decide for him or herself how long they're willing to wait for that to happen, and if they trust themselves to recognize that they aren't being used again by the MLCer during a reconnection (as opposed to a touch-and-go or cake-eating), and that they trust themselves to let go of the pain caused by past transgressions.

I think Chump Lady is asking you to also trust that you're not being a door mat, and that you're going to be ok if you have to wait forever to be in a healthy relationship, because there is a significant chance that the MLCer may never come back to the relationship as a healthy partner. If your faith, religious or otherwise, tells you that waiting forever is a viable option for you, then so be it--that is a choice that many of you will make.

Personally I think that is a waste of life, but others may feel that it IS their life's calling to be forever devoted to their husband or wife--even if that husband or wife does not return the devotion.

EITHER outcome is very, very sad. It hurts a great deal to give up on the hope that the character disorder is temporary (or temporary enough) and move on. I think that except for the very religious here, where hope is not the driving factor, and religion dictates standing as a rule no matter why or what, our biggest fear is that right after we move on in life and enter a healthy and loving relationship with another person, our MLCer spouse--often the parent of our children--would transform themselves into an ideal character worthy of being our partner again. But it'd be too late, the door closed. This breaks our hearts.

But nothing that CL has said here conflicts with anything we know about MLC, except that many of us feel MLC is a temporary character disorder, and CL is urging us to consider the possibility that MLC is not as temporary as one might like to think. Or that any of us get a say in the matter. Often the MLCer is truly narcissistic and always was--that person will never be a suitable partner unless you like to be the relationship cop and be used regularly (please get counseling if that is the case!) Sometimes the MLCer has made a new baby who deserves two parents--that can't be fixed. Yes, your children also deserve two parents, but your MLCer spouse has made an unfixable mess. Often there are no children involved, but the MLCer will NEVER go back to the LBS.

And sometimes, with careful nurturing (feeding the squirrel!) the MLCer emerges from this awful process as a battered but better person, and a beautiful reconciliation can occur (after a lot of work.) CL is right when she says this is not a common occurrence. But I would maintain that what RCR has set up here--a primer on MLC and standing--is a unique workshop that can increase the odds of successful reconciliation. If we're looking at statistics, it's for darn sure that we're not looking at folks like the people here who have a better understanding of MLC (who, besides a few hundred people who read here or a handful of other standing websites like DB understand MLC??)

I think an understanding of MLC can increase the odds of reconciliation, can assist with the process of reconciliation. But it is a character disorder, it is an indication of at least one very damaged person (maybe both partners are damaged). And it's up to each MLCer and LBSer to decide if/when he/she will re-engage in a relationship with their partner. Who knows what the odds are, since nobody has studied MLC and people who skillfully and patiently stand.

All CL is asking is that you go into this process not with hope alone, not with illusion/delusion, but with your eyes and your mind wide open. You get one life--it's up to you to decide how you want to spend it and on or with whom. You have to look back in the end and ask yourself, "Was it worth it?" The hard part is that we don't always have the foresight to know with certainty what is the right thing to do. Some of us have a good idea but lack the strength or self esteem to do what is in our own self interests (that can go either way--the strength and esteem to stand, or the strength and esteem to know when to call it and move on to something good for the short rest of our lives.)

Love to you all! I love my LBS peeps!

[Anjae]

Stayed has said that love can be re-kindled at a later time.  I have had to blindly accept that statement - because if I think about it too much - I have doubts that this could actualy happen.

In a regular, non MLC affair it can be done. After a MLC I think it depends of all that has happened. The LBS will change and move on so it may never be possible to do so.

I don't know if the LBS doesn't or won't care if they come back or not.  I think we need to accept the fact that they may or may not come back. 

It is really a difficult concept.  To live like they are not coming back - in my mind - means that I go forward with my life.  I do not plan to be alone for the remainder of my life....so, eventually, I would imagine that I would be open to a new relationship.

But, I am not divorced.  I remain legally married.  So, until my divorce is through - I continue to live my life as if I am married?  But, I have no partner.  I am alone (with my kids...thankfully). 

Exactly, living if they are not coming back means move on, find someone new, remarry, have a new life. Like you I still legally married (against my will). I have dated, I liked the man but, you see, I was still legally married.  The concept does not work very well. If we really live like they are not coming back there is no more room for them. Unless, of course, the LBS has no plnas to have another relationship ever or the MLCer turn up when the LBS is still not in another relationship.

So....let's take it further - if my H finally divorces me....I am a free woman.  There are many Standers here who are divorced...and yet continue to Stand for their marriage. 

When are you really living like they are never coming back?

I dare say, in that sense, they are not. They are wainting for the MLC process to end and, hopefully, have their MLCer abck. Some of those LBS, of course, may end up finding someone and, in that case, I think things will change.

To it is more about Standing for ourselves, until we re fit and strong enough to move forward, with or without the MLCer. Standing for a marriage that does not exist and a vanishing husband, in my case, does not make sense.

I think that this is the fear or concern of many Standers - who have been Standing for some time (1, 2, 3 + years).  Will I still care?  Will I even want him/her back?  I wonder about this.....

Like the MLCer we will cycle and, again, it will depend of what happens in the LBS life, how long they are in crisis, the type of contact/relationship we have with out MLCer. In the end many of us may not want the MLCer back. But we had become strong, know our selves better and know what man/woman we want in our lives.



Well, we have a normally depressed spouse, when they stop being depressed we do not have a patient and therapist relationship with them. Like you do not have a patient therapist relationship with a true borderline spouse.

However, I have no wish to be looking after a broken MLCer. The more the LBS is on their own, the more detached and strong we become the less appealing the thought of having a broken MLCer back. To me, having a person in that condition in my life would mean go backwards.

So, it may be that if not too much time as passed and the LBS has not become too detached, too strong, too moving forward and living like they are not coming back, the LBS may still find some appeal in the returning MLCer.

Yes, at a point the MLCer will have many needs the LBS no longer has.

I know that i sound a bit Pollyana - but wouldn't it be great if we both were to heal ourselves and reconcile as two healthy people?  But, it seems that many (most) MLCers return broken (if/when they return).

Yes, that would be great. And that may happen if, for exemple, LBS and MLCer are divorced, the MLCer has had its crisis and, latter on, reconnects with the LBS. If the LBS remains single both partner may, by then, be happy and healthy. Having a broken MLCer back will see the couple on a bumpy road that may lead to happiness and a great marriage but the LBS will have a tough time, toughter than during replay. If the LBS is happy and healed way before the MLCer is out of the tunnel and has found a new life, I’m not certain the MLCer has a chance. Most likely the MLCer will not have a change in those circumstances. The LBS, on the other hand, will be a very well grounded happy person

Many here believe it is temporary. Many here believe that if they are not nice or compassionate about MLC, including understanding that the affair is a symptom of the character disorder, that the MLCer will not come back to the marriage.

Don’t think MLC is a character disorder. To me it is a mental, psychological and emotional disorder. Don’t even think there is such thing as a character disorder. There are character flaws. For me it pretty soon become irrelevant if I’m not or not nice to my MLCer. I’m nice, in the few times I speak to him, because I’m not a rude person but that is all. I’ve never walked on egg shells and have always told him what I thought.

Personally I think that is a waste of life, but others may feel that it IS their life's calling to be forever devoted to their husband or wife--even if that husband or wife does not return the devotion.

Waiting forever is not an option for me. It never was. The only thing I’ve been waiting for years is the legal end of the marriage. To me it is a waste of time to wait forever. Waiting is more a case of the LBS to be well enough to move on healthy than for the LBS to wake up.

EITHER outcome is very, very sad. It hurts a great deal to give up on the hope that the character disorder is temporary (or temporary enough) and move on. I think that except for the very religious here, where hope is not the driving factor, and religion dictates standing as a rule no matter why or what, our biggest fear is that right after we move on in life and enter a healthy and loving relationship with another person, our MLCer spouse--often the parent of our children--would transform themselves into an ideal character worthy of being our partner again. But it'd be too late, the door closed. This breaks our hearts.

For those with children I understand that there is a want to have the marriage back. In my experience, a point will come when the LBS will no longer care if the MLCer will transform into an ideal character. We’ve moved on, the door is closed. And, at that point, our hearts will no longer be broke, we’ve moved too far, the MLCer and its crisis are in the past.

But nothing that CL has said here conflicts with anything we know about MLC, except that many of us feel MLC is a temporary character disorder, and CL is urging us to consider the possibility that MLC is not as temporary as one might like to think.

MLC is a temporary disorder except of those few who enter it and never come out. But it was not a disorder that was there 10/20/30 years ago. I think we know our spouses and we have not been mistaken for 10/20/30/35 years. A loving spouse that turns into monster had a change. For most the change is temporary. Problem is some of them take too long to be done with their crisis.

And sometimes, with careful nurturing (feeding the squirrel!) the MLCer emerges from this awful process as a battered but better person, and a beautiful reconciliation can occur (after a lot of work.) CL is right when she says this is not a common occurrence. But I would maintain that what RCR has set up here--a primer on MLC and standing--is a unique workshop that can increase the odds of successful reconciliation.

The reconciliation in not a common occurrence. The MLCer coming out of the crisis is the most common result of the MLC. And when they do they normally are, first a battered person, then a better person than before. The thing is, how many of us, once we have become strong, detached, healed and have been living a life without a spouse for ages are willing to have a wreck back into our lives? Not many, probably.

[Dontgiveup]

MLC is a character disorder.

It's an emotional and developmental "disorder", or dis-ease.  I would think a "character disorder" would have always been present, not suddenly after a bomb drop.

Many here believe it is temporary.

Temporary is a relative term.....it is a process.  But yes, those who are knowledgeable through study and reseach have said it's temporary.

Many here believe that if they are not nice or compassionate about MLC, including understanding that the affair is a symptom of the character disorder, that the MLCer will not come back to the marriage.

Being understanding, nice and compassionate about MLC is part of the Unconditionals.....ways that everyone should be treated.  It is for Self growth.  The MLCer returning to the marriage is too much of a focus on an end result.

Many here believe (want to believe but are conflicted, often) that the MLCer will one day heal him/herself of their character disorder and will be a full partner (not a patient or child-like character) in a mutually committed and closed relationship.

Who else is going to heal them?  From RCR's coaching archives.
You aren’t going to mess up his crisis—it’s his crisis and if anyone is going to mess it up, it’s going to be him and if anyone is going to get through it, it’s going to be him.



Each LBS has to decide for him or herself how long they're willing to wait for that to happen, and if they trust themselves to recognize that they aren't being used again by the MLCer during a reconnection (as opposed to a touch-and-go or cake-eating), and that they trust themselves to let go of the pain caused by past transgressions.

A reconnection is part of the continuation of Touch and Goes.  And, yes, forgiveness and the Unconditionals are very important.

because there is a significant chance that the MLCer may never come back to the relationship as a healthy partner.

It is true they "may" not return, but what is your evidence that there is a "significant" chance they will not?

Personally I think that is a waste of life, but others may feel that it IS their life's calling to be forever devoted to their husband or wife--even if that husband or wife does not return the devotion.

Some of us (or at least me) are quite confident in the core values of their spouse or ex-spouse.  The difference in my MLC before and after bomb drop is night and day, and I believe MLC is a process.  RCR's articles have told the story of my MLCer.....and a few others that I know.

EITHER outcome is very, very sad. It hurts a great deal to give up on the hope that the character disorder is temporary (or temporary enough) and move on. I think that except for the very religious here, where hope is not the driving factor, and religion dictates standing as a rule no matter why or what, our biggest fear is that right after we move on in life and enter a healthy and loving relationship with another person, our MLCer spouse--often the parent of our children--would transform themselves into an ideal character worthy of being our partner again. But it'd be too late, the door closed. This breaks our hearts.

Yes, RCR addresses the reality that often the LBS has moved on in the article Stories and Human Behavior.  The article also mentions the process and that it's rare for an MLCer to get stuck.

But nothing that CL has said here conflicts with anything we know about MLC, except that many of us feel MLC is a temporary character disorder, and CL is urging us to consider the possibility that MLC is not as temporary as one might like to think.

CL is focused on the affair.  I do not know enough about CL's credentials in the study of midlife crisis specifically, but I do know the credentials of other sources, including the credentials that RCR lists on the home page.

Or that any of us get a say in the matter.

Yes, you get a say.  Standing is a "say".  Ending your Stand is a "say".

Often the MLCer is truly narcissistic and always was

Then perhaps it's a true personality disorder and not MLC.  In MLC, there is a sudden and drastic change at bomb drop.

But I would maintain that what RCR has set up here--a primer on MLC and standing--is a unique workshop that can increase the odds of successful reconciliation.

Yes, RCR mentions this is the blog Hope Expectations and Probability.

I think an understanding of MLC can increase the odds of reconciliation, can assist with the process of reconciliation.

From RCR's article on Acceptance.
To get through this, Acceptance of the MLC process is a requirement.

since nobody has studied MLC and people who skillfully and patiently stand.

Jim Conway has specialized in working with an writing about MLC for over 30 years.  RCR lists her research on the home page.

[Dr. NO]

Limitless, Honor

Reg. your posts on 'Detaching with love" or "Why have a flicking hope when you are truly detaching"

One reason I think one may want to do that...i.e. detach completely but still hope that MLC recovers (not to reunite with LBS.. since that is LBS choice at that time) but often times for the sake of kids.

I am detached (as good as it gets) from my MLC W and I don't want anything to do with her in future, as far as I am concerned.  In addition, I am all determined to take good care of my kids, without MLC W and in spite of MLC W", however I do hope that one day she comes out of it so that my kids will also have a sane mother.

Thoughts?

Dr. NO

[Chump Lady]

I do hope that one day she comes out of it so that my kids will also have a sane mother.

I think that's a good thing to hope for. And it shows what a good person that you are that you're putting your kids first. They're lucky they have one sane parent.

[limitless]

Dr. No.

Yes.  I believe that you are correct.

As I look into the future...I question if I will choose to reconnect with my H - if/when he comes out of it....and if/when he looks back toward me.  When I think of my kids....I hope that I can.  A happily reunited family would be in the best interest of my kids....my future grandchildren....  That being said...it takes two willing participants to have a marriage/relationship.  Currently, that is not the case....so I just let it be.  Maybe someday that will change.

And whether or not we can reconcile....I also hope and pray that my H comes out of it.  I want my kids to be able to have a caring, loving father.....like they had when they grew up.  Not this man/child stranger alien....he is now.

And, rose colored glasses completely removed....the man I loved, the man I married, the man I had three children with....was a really kind hearted, giving person.  I'd like to see that person return.....he was a good guy.

limitless

[OldPilot]

I just joined this website and since Tracy has posted here thought I would resurrect this thread and see if she gets any hits from our site.