[StillStanding]

Still, a normal affair and a MLC affair are very different. I know people that have had affairs, normal ones, none of them did what our MCLers have. As soon as they got caught they tried to solve the situation. Even the ones that end up divorced because the spouse did not wished to be married, were not mean, cruel, nasty or abandoned the spouse or kids. It is very easy to recover from a normal affair compared to a MLC affair.

I don't know that I'd call recovering from any kind of affair "easy", but I do agree that the affairs MLCer have are not the same as the ones non-MLCers have. But I wasn't just referring to affairs rooted in MLC.

Sorry but I don’t subscribe to the unfulfilled needs theory in MLC. Maybe in a normal affair that is true 8even so I have my doubts, most of the times the argument of unfulfilled needs is just an excuse for bad behaviour),

Got a source for that? Or is that just your own opinion?

but not in [MLC]. Even with all theirs needs more than fulfilled MCLers would still have an affair.

I totally agree.

And there are non MLC people who have all theirs needs meet by the spouse and still have affairs. I know some like that as well. They are addict to the rush that comes with the affair. That’s all. And the rush that comes with the affair is not a need, is an addiction.

So far we seem to be in agreement; There are addictive/compulsive and borderline/narcissistic personality types, and there are people who have an affair and, when caught, either file for divorce and run, or they try to make amends.

Again, the LBS did not created the hurt nor the destruction. Sorry, I know the MCLers are in crisis but that is not a free pass to run over the LBS, let alone to excuse their behaviour. Even less to have the LBS think it is their fault or they have some flaw that took the MCLer into its crisis.

I never said that is was an excuse, but it is an explanation. And it doesn't change the fact that labelling someone a "cheater" is not a statement of fact; rather it is an opinion.

Which brings me back to my question: If you believe that there is no excuse for infidelity, and that "once a cheater, always a cheater", why do you Stand?

I haven't kept up on your particular situation, but I remember you quite emphatically referring to your husband as a "criminal" and said that he is a person that you would never choose to be involved with if you were just meeting him now. If you really think your husband is a criminal, why are you Standing? He's still going to be the person that lied in court about his affairs. All I've seen you say in response is that you are Standing "for you", but what does that mean? Are you hoping that you can work through the anger and the feelings of betrayal and can come to love and respect him again? If so, I think that's fantastic and I hope for the best. If not, then why?

[Anjae]

Compared with this I would recover from a normal affair pretty easily.

Sorry but I don’t subscribe to the unfulfilled needs theory in MLC. Maybe in a normal affair that is true even so I have my doubts, most of the times the argument of unfulfilled needs is just an excuse for bad behaviour),

Got a source for that? Or is that just your own opinion?

My opinion. In MLC they are to messed up, to confused to know what they want, what they need or what need is unfulfilled. So, don't think it is so much a case of unfulfilled needs but more of feeling they are running out of time to do certain things, or having (like Thundarr's client) a feeling of drowning and that OW/OM is going to solve that.

Which brings me back to my question: If you believe that there is no excuse for infidelity, and that "once a cheater, always a cheater", why do you Stand?

MLC is, in itself an explanation for infidelity. I understand logic, so, I can get that the reason for my husband affairs where the MLC. But that does not excuse, or gives him a free pass from his responsabillities and actions. He his accountable for his deeds. “Once a cheater always a cheater” in the sense that, once a world champion, always a world champion. You cannot erase that action. Now, will the person who cheated do it again? Depends. Don’t think my husband will do it again after the crisis, but it is true that, by now, he had learned many bad things, including out to go behind my back, so, he is not the man I knew and I cannot be certain. Does this makes sense? I have not seen him in over 3.5 years, only hear of him trough the court, there was not (yet) a time to have a sense of what type of person he has become (think he is still becoming something).
[/quote]

I haven't kept up on your particular situation, but I remember you quite emphatically referring to your husband as a "criminal" and said that he is a person that you would never choose to be involved with if you were just meeting him now. If you really think your husband is a criminal, why are you Standing? He's still going to be the person that lied in court about his affairs. All I've seen you say in response is that you are Standing "for you", but what does that mean? Are you hoping that you can work through the anger and the feelings of betrayal and can come to love and respect him again? If so, I think that's fantastic and I hope for the best. If not, then why?

Well, he is a criminal (a fact, not an opinion). He did not lied to the court about his affairs (he never presented them as a reason for his fault divorce process nor ever mentioned them). He lied about his address and withheld relevant information to the cases. Those things are criminal, and not civil, offenses. At the eyes of the law, if you commit a criminal action you are a criminal. So determined the court, not I. Of course at this point I would not be involved with a man like my husband. Who wants to be involved with a married man that is in the middle of court cases, has already been told he cannot have his way, and keeps insisting, lives the life of a speedy party boy teenager? Not me. Even if he was divorced I would never be involved with a man that would not meet his obligations before his former wife and, case they have them, kids.

Of course he will still be the person that lied to the court, did all those things and that the court charged for a criminal offense. But there is a difference between someone who has been all that in the past and had make mends (to himself, to those he hurt) and anknowledge his actions and the hurt that came with them, and someone that is still in the middle of committing his actions. So, if we know that a person is still in the middle of a bunch of troubles, we can choose not to be near them, can we not? And we can also choose to, if/when they come out of their troubles, take stock for their actions and really repent, top take, or not to take them back. Everyone is entitled to redeem themselves. Or  at least, so I think.

Yes, I’m standing for myself. That is pretty much all I can do now. Have no idea when my husband’s crisis will end (or if. I’m inclined to think he will be trapped, given the friendships, lifestyle and world he got himself into, that promote and endorse very regressive/juvenile ways and have no praise whatsoever for marriage or responsibilities and the fact that he has become very successful in his new professional life. It is hard to give up fame and success, two other addictions) and how he will be after it, let alone if I would like him. I do not like the version that existed since a few months before BD until present. I did liked the version that existed since he was 17 and until 20 years later.

Anger and betrayal are taken care of. I love him but I don't respect him. Would like to one day do so again, even if we were no longer married, but, at the moment, I do not. Nor do I trust him.

[Silmarion]

I never said that is was an excuse, but it is an explanation. And it doesn't change the fact that labelling someone a "cheater" is not a statement of fact; rather it is an opinion.

Yes - it is not a statement of fact...nor are most things: they are beliefs, values, opinions.  What consitutes a fact? Reality.  What is reality to one is not necessarily reality to another.  You might say evidence is fact - well that depends what you base it on.  My evidence that my H was having affair, while still married to me, was discovered through messages (hard evidence you could say). This became fact once he confirmed it.  We all judge and judgements are subjective - that's why we can change our opinions for good or ill.    If however it becomes a fact (as the affair) then it cannot be altered ie You cannot alter the past you can only change the present. 


Sil x