[Trustandlove]

Hi,

Throughout this process I have been learning about communication techniques -- a lot has been said about "active listening".  I've found that it has taken a lot of time for that idea to get through my head.

As part of my working on me I've been doing CBT, some with a therapist but I found that working hard on my own with David Burns "Feeling Good" books works best. 

In his "Feeling Good Handbook" he has a large section on communication techniques, and specifically on things that get you stuck -- things that keep you from listening.  Of course, for a long time I would read these things thinking "this is what H needs to see..."  I finally turned it around and tried to listen, really listen, to what he was saying.  The "I'm sorry you feel that way" routine, basically. 

OK, so that has got as as far as him beginning to open up to me.  I have casually mentioned in a couple of conversations that I've been learning about these things; this time I didn't say that he should or shouldn't do anything -- just saying that I had found it helpful.  Last week he asked why I was reading about them, I replied "To learn -- to really learn.  Because the way to overcome anger is to really understand where the other person is coming from"  I didn't say that I was angry or offer further explanations.  I didn't talk about our R, I did say that it had taken me quite a bit of time to learn this, that I had read and re-read the stuff many times.  (maybe this is in the catetory of "work on yourself, visibly", that Al Turtle talks about??)

H and I have talked around this before -- how other relationships we know of only became really strong when one party (man, in this case) really, really saw his wife's point of view.  Really put himself in her shoes.  He said "it seems like it took them a long time to get there"  I just concurred. 

I have been trying to plant seeds like this for a long time; for a while I'm sure it seemed manipulative.   But it has been a topic that has been raised between us from time to time. 

Anyway, the point of all this is that this past weekend the topic came up again, and I said that I had yet again been reading this -- I actually had to hand a photocopy of one chapter that I had made to take with me so that I wouldn't have to drag the very big book along (true, honest), and said, as casually as I could, that he was welcome to it if he wanted.  He said yes, and took it and started looking at it.  I just said that I recognised myself in a lot  of it -- meaning things that I did that could prevent real listening.   

He said yes, he'd like to have a look.  He looked over the list and pointed out some things that he thought applied to him, I did say one which applied to me, and used an example that we have used before.

I've been here before as well -- nearly 2 years ago I read the 5 love languages book and told him about it -- he was interested, and I got him a copy.  He read it, said that it made sense -- that it 'wasn't rocket science', and we got as far as him saying what he thought his love languages were and even 2 sentences about mine.    At that point I did express my willingness to learn; that of course went nowhere.  Had I been able to internalise more about communication techniques at the time it might have, but I guess I couldn't run before I could walk, either. 

I had originally thought about trying to tell him about this the way I did about the love languages.  The copy really was for me to take to read, but there was the thought in the back of my mind that it would be easy to give to him that way.  And just one chapter, not more -- too much information is overload.  So I'm sure I was looking for a way to get him to read it.  I wonder if I planted seeds or seemed manipulative. 

I did wonder because it's a catch-22:  Trying to tell someone your 'truth' is a barrier to listening; so giving him this becomes me telling him my 'truth'....  so I'm not sure I did good here or not. 

The topic and him taking the chapter came up pretty naturally this time, it didn't seem like it was me saying: this is the holy grail, you have to read this.  I think I 'invited' rather than lectured.   But did I? 

It was in response to him asking what I thought the real issues were between us.  Another topic that has come up recently. 

I'm now replying by saying it was/is the need to be able to express negative feelings safely.  And am trying to demonstrate this by just listening when he says negative things.  I guess it's working in that he seems to feel safer saying those things, as I'm not jumping all over him the minute he says something.  I'm really trying to validate those feelings. 

Now for me:  of course there is the danger of getting my hopes up that he will read this, the light bulb will go on, and we will go forward.  I know it doesn't work that way.  One possibility is that he will express more and more negative feelings, which is where the swallowing a lot of crap comes in. 

The active listening bit really is for me, as I really know that hanging on to anger isn't going to do me one iota of good.  But, as always, neither do I want to condone bad behaviour.  I'm trying to walk the tightrope here....

As an addendum to this I've also been using these techniques with my teenagers, and it really does improve relationships.  It applies to work situations as well....  so beneficial to me no matter what; I'm just thinking of how it fits in with my general strategy of dealing with my MLCer. 

So that's my thought for the day....

[Mamma Bear]

 I liked what you said here. It's really important to listen and be quiet/validate. I'm glad I came upon it while surfing today. It's good to keep the calm and I don't think the MLCer knows what to think of us either.  Mine tilts his head like my dog when she hears a doorbell on TV....when he notices that I'm changing.

[covenantkeeper]

I'm glad I read this, for this very subject came up last night between me and h.

We were talking about another couple and how the man admitted he views everything the wife has to say as "bugging" him. It's all negative and he can't see any other point of view beside she's bothering him, nagging him and he just wants to escape.

H said that's how he is with me. I said how in the world do you think I'm bugging you when we hardly even speak? You work all day long, come home, eat, walk the dogs, and stay in the living room. After being home for only about 2 hours, it's time for you to go to bed. Our "conversations" are minimal at best.....and consist mostly about the dogs!!

Then he said...."well, that's my perception of what you are saying."

I replied, "Wow, that's probably the most revealing thing you've said to me so far in all of this."

Now, I already knew those in MLC do this, it's just the fact that my h finally admitted it! 

He went on to say that even though he supposes I have been really sincere, all he knows is that he wants me to shut up. I asked him if he thought some of that was his guilt and he said yes.

I said, so what if I have had the wrong perception of you? And what if both of us are doing the same thing and we are simply reacting to what we think is going on when it's something totally different?

His eyes opened wide and he said, "well, I guess we would need to hang in there long enough to figure it out."

I just smiled.  Big talk from a guy who filed for divorce a second time and is now in the process of appealing the order for spousal support.

Here is a man who is in way over his head and admits that he really doesn't want a divorce, yet keeps filing! But, when the judge agreed he should pay me an amount he wasn't prepared for......which apparently was more than $1.50......he cries foul and files an appeal!

So much for perception. 

[Mamma Bear]

  That's OK I'm reading up on how to talk to someone who never stopped talking for 15 years and ever since BD OW EA /PA 2-14-11 He has nothing to say except "Here's some junk mail I just carried up. Looks interesting."..
  Today he surprised me in our driveway out of the blue to borrow the old van and it's so weird. I know every day is a Blank Slate..we are free to fill it in as we see fit. But after all the reading and posting here I'm still AMAZED at how our conversations go. I feel like I'm on Candid Camera.
  I'm thinking don't pursue/be nice/don't talk about R/don't be a doormat/floss after every meal and then he starts rambling on about taking the kids to The Botanical Gardens and "we'll talk". He always says that and we never do. It's OK. I know this man loves me. I know he'll be back.
 If he doesn't I'm OK Always was. Always will be. But come on?
 He actually is still going with this : I didn't want to be CLOSE to him and he doesn't blame me.
  Maybe if he wasn't taking vicodin/drinking/sleeping on couch I could've been closer. Nice Stay at Home Dad.
  Any R conversations involve that or I don't even "like" him.
  That's my favorite. Why then did I spend the last 15 years catering to your every whim and working as Hospital Pharmacy Supervisor paying all the bills, raising our daughters and also being your best friend/confidante.
 Suddenly he's GONE at OW apt hell whole tiny flop house and pops out of mole hole 6 weeks later like "Why did anyone accuse me of abandoning my family?"
  Do they own a thesaurus? I think I've read it here as well others saying they didn't know they abandoned their families. ??Huh?
  Anyway, he always wants to fly so I didn't say too much except
  Bye Now..He had heard me slam the kitchen door and when I went to call off the dog he asked "Are you mad at me? I don't want you mad."    Huh again?  Me mad? Whatever gave you that idea?
  I'm getting good at this.
 If you can't beat 'em..join em'
  Take Care. Peace.Grace.Dignity.
   I probably shouldn't have slammed the door. But I blamed the wind and both laughed. Laughing is good.