[How aware /conscious/ mindfull were you pre-BD? For example did you know about 90/10 rule, did you let your stress reactions (fight, flight etc) control your behaviour. Etc]

How aware /conscious/ mindfull were you pre-BD? For example did you know about 90/10  rule, did you let your stress reactions (fight, flight etc) control your behaviour. Etc

Not aware at all

8 (42.1%)

Slightly aware

6 (31.6%)

Moderately aware

1 (5.3%)

Lot aware

2 (10.5%)

Fully aware

2 (10.5%)

Total Members Voted: 19

[OffRoad]

However, one thing that was foremost in my head during those days was the lack of physical intimacy in my marriage.  It had been going on for a long time, and it eventually wore down my self esteem, my feelings of worth, my feelings of being desirable. My W, to this day, does not/will not accept how important physical intimacy is to men.  She  does understand how important emotional intimacy is to women, though. And that's where I wasn't mindful.  We were both doing things we thought were showing love to each other, but were completely missing the mark.

And here is where I have questions. You can be conscious of a situation, yet unaware that there is a problem if nothing looks wrong to you. Is it "unmindful" if someone needs something, yet does not tell you and expects you to "just know"? Did your wife (way long before BD) tell you that she didn't feel cherished? Did you tell your wife that you needed intimacy to feel loved? Did you explain how feeling desired equates to love to you? Because this is not inherit knowledge in the average human being. It's something we learn as we go. (I know I was clueless for 10 years from 16 to 26-long before XH)

A long time ago in a galaxy far, far away, I actually said those words to my XH. That lack of his wanting intimacy made me feel undesirable and unloved and I wanted to know if there was anything I could change that might help. I was told, no he was just stressed (maybe true, maybe not who knows-intimacy ebbed and flowed). Was I supposed to mind read what he really meant or needed? I think no. Which is why I think there may be a thing as over mindfullness, where one person does all the heavy lifting and the other one just waits to get their "needs" met without ever really saying what it is they want and need to feel XXXX way. Saying "We never have sex" does not equate to "I need sex to feel loved." Believe it or not, both genders can feel that way and both genders can maybe need something else to feel loved. It's not a given for any group or gender of people.

My original, however vague,  point was that there are probably few marriages that are really, authentically happy, where both people feel genuinely that their spouse "knows" and understands what their needs are.  Maybe that's just being viewed through my own, cracked lens.  I think, however, based on everything I have read, that the situation is more common than not.  And that is what I meant by it being sad, and that a great deal of the unhappiness in marriages is avoidable. 

BBM. My point exactly. There is a subset of people who are emotionally crippled and really have no idea what it is they need to feel loved. There is a subset of people who cannot ask for what they want or need because their past dictates that asking for something guarantees you will not get it. There is a subset of people who believe your significant other should just "know" what you want and need (This requires remembering as well). Is someone unmindful if they load the dishwasher differently because they don't remember how their spouse loads it, but still try their hardest to "do it right"? Is someone unmindful if he or she asks the other person if they are OK, and the other person says yes even when they are NOT OK, and the first person has nothing to work with? Is someone unmindful if they have absolutely zero idea there is a problem because they have zero idea of what *this specific person's* depression looks like? (because all depression does not look the same)

* Are we talking "Paying attention to another person's moods and attitudes and trying to figure it out and adjust for them"?
* Are we talking "Magically knowing what someone else needs when they don't tell you"?
* Are we talking "Remembering or writing down the things someone else has told you they want and need and doing them"? (This one I am on board with).
* Are we talking "Knowing there is something bothering someone else when they say nothing and they look normal and say everything is OK, but it really isn't"?
* Are we talking "Continually reading and learning so we can identify what might be depressive behavior or an indication of a problem"? (kind of on board with this one)
* Are we talking "How self aware was I about any self absorbed, self centered and self-indulgent behaviors where I took no one else into consideration (or lack thereof)." (Also on board with this one)

I have learned what one persons decent into Hell looks like. I saw, I asked, I was told nothing was wrong more times than I can count. (2013 Me: I'm having trouble understanding what is going on. I feel like I'm in this relationship alone. Am I missing something I need to do? XH: There's nothing wrong. I'm 100 % engaged in this relationship. 2015 XH: You were right, I had already checked out of the relationship. ) I didn't monkey brain anything until after BD (at which point it was self preservation, so a lot about me and S-then 15) What I learned from that is if I see it again, run, do not walk, do not pass go, forget the $200. And that being mindful/aware/conscious won't help you when you are the only person practicing it in the relationship. JMO.

[OffRoad]

And FWIW, I most certainly do not think I was a perfect anything. I am a human being, with flaws and foibles. But I cannot work in a void, nor can I improve anything when I am told "nothing is wrong". While I am sure there are some people who descended into complacency or maybe even laziness, I'd be willing to bet there are a lot more who simply had nothing to work with.

[Anjae]

I'm not sure if it is making more sense to me, Disillusioned, but thank you for further explaining.

My original, however vague,  point was that there are probably few marriages that are really, authentically happy, where both people feel genuinely that their spouse "knows" and understands what their needs are.

Mr J and I feel that way about each other. Were we right? I would say with the exception of the MLC person, yes. Even if his MLC says I understood him and knew what his needs were and I say the same about his pre-MLC self.

It does not mean now we would be able to do the same.

We had an easy flowing relationship. It was not perfect, no relationship or marriage is, but we got along fine. People thought we were the perfect couple and had us as an example. I understand why, even if we were not perfec, but it could be said we were perfect for each other.


"* Are we talking "Paying attention to another person's moods and attitudes and trying to figure it out and adjust for them"?" - Not sure what would come of constantly adjusting to another person's moods.
"* Are we talking "Magically knowing what someone else needs when they don't tell you"?" - Pretty impossible, isn't it?
"* Are we talking "Remembering or writing down the things someone else has told you they want and need and doing them"? (This one I am on board with)." -For me, OK, providing what they want and need is reasonable. If it starts to clash with the way I am and my priciples, I will not go there.
"* Are we talking "Knowing there is something bothering someone else when they say nothing and they look normal and say everything is OK, but it really isn't"?" - I can know it, at least when it come to Mr J, grandmother, several of my siblings, etc. It does not mean I can a thing about it.
"* Are we talking "Continually reading and learning so we can identify what might be depressive behavior or an indication of a problem"? (kind of on board with this one)" - It was easy to know Mr J, cousin who had MLC were depressed. Nothing I could do about it.
"* Are we talking "How self aware was I about any self absorbed, self centered and self-indulgent behaviors where I took no one else into consideration (or lack thereof)." (Also on board with this one)" - MLC aside, Mr J and I always pretty much took each other into consideration.

[MyBrainIsBroken]

A while after BD I told my therapist I was having a hard time talking with my wife. She suggested I spend some time learning about the communication process. (She knows I'm a researcher.) Next appointment she asked me what I had learned. I told her I had learned that it takes two people to have a conversation. I was having trouble communicating with my wife because she wasn't participating.

The only reason I mention this is because this was after BD and it was so unusual that I didn't recognize what was happening.  I wouldn't say either of us was particularly mindful during our marriage but I don't think we had problems communicating. Quite often we knew what the other was thinking without any words being said. The main thing that changed after BD is that she stopped saying anything meaningful.

[Anon]

I was slightly aware but had no idea it was an MLC in the making.  H was depressed, had conflicts with people at work that he had been fine with before, was angry or exasperated ALL the time about anything and everything.  Me and the family talked often for a year or so about his depressed condition.  We all hoped he would see a counsellor about it,   He did, but it was ineffective.   Then he goes to an out of town high school reunion and meets up with an old crush from when he was 15.  She is still single at 61 and he fell hard.   They are still seeing each other every few weeks long distance.  Now into its 3rd year.  Cracks are there but no signs of the relationship failing either.