[justasking]

I was reading about the male side of the W and the female side of our H according to Jung last night.

At midlife this change occurs to even the balance within our subconscious as prior to midlife the male or female side has been more prominent and the opposite side prevented from developing.

I would be grateful if anyone knows at what stage in the MLC journey these changes occur? Or do they occur gradually throughout the process?

xx

[OldPilot]

I was reading about the male side of the W and the female side of our H according to Jung last night.

At midlife this change occurs to even the balance within our subconscious as prior to midlife the male or female side has been more prominent and the opposite side prevented from developing.

I would be grateful if anyone knows at what stage in the MLC journey these changes occur? Or do they occur gradually throughout the process?

I don't know about a stage but male and female menopause would seem to cause what you are saying and seem to go hand in hand with it.
Male menopause, a drop in testosterone(a male hormone) and an increase in estrogen(a female hormone)

Female menopause - the opposit of male. A drop in estrogen and an increase in testosterone.

Now whether the actual levels drop or just the overall percentage of hormones in relationship to the other  is what is more likely happening.
So it might be that it is not an increase in estrogen levels for males but the percentage of estrogen in relationship to the dropping testosterone gives men more female type charactersitics.

Male menopause ages 20-70, female menopause 5-15 years.

I think in MLC it is the fluctuations that cause the depression.
Once the body becomes used to the new levels the depression fades away.

I hope that helps.

[rememberer]

Are you referring to the anima/animus, according to Carl Jung? I'm not sure what stage they come into play but I would guess probably during the Replay stage and/or slightly before that. That's what triggers the OW/OM attraction apparently.

[Buggy31]

JA
Just out of curiousity what are you reading by Jung?  I read something by Jung discussing anima/animus and it was very interesting. 

Here are some thoughts I have.

Those men that reach midlife and have CLUNG to masculine roles tightly probably get pretty thrown off as there anima surfaces.  It is my understanding that the integration of the anima/animus is key at midlife.  I feel it in myself and have felt it since turning 30.  It is a awareness of buried or supressed parts of myself that WOULD not be silenced any longer.  Anyway my thoughts are that the OW/OM R is a HUGE projection of the anima/animus that the MLCer doesn't recognize or is AFRAID to recognize as a component of themselves.  This OP then feels like a completion of the MLCer as they are satisfying the anima through projection.  In many ways loving or the feeling that they're loving the OP is almost a way of them TRYING to love themselves.  I STRONGLY believe this is why they are INCREDIBLY protective of the affair partner.  In many ways they are protecing themselves, protecting their anima when they protect OM/OW.  If they don't integrate their anima and let the partner of projection go they feel incomplete and really it's not about the OP but about what they can't integrate into themselves.

My H was the third son of a football coach dad and stay at home mom.  He had two gay brothers and IMO overly attached to MASCULINITY.  This served him throughout his life until midlife.  At this time he started to talk about wanting to have close relationships with other men and a loss because he didn't have that.  He spoke about wanting to volunteer his time at soup kitchens.  He spoke about wanting to spend time with our girls and "do their hair".  My H's desire to do these things would feel very scary because of his own issues in regard to masculinity.

Anyway just some thoughts I've had for awhile ...I thought I'd share

[HeartsBlessing]

I would be grateful if anyone knows at what stage in the MLC journey these changes occur? Or do they occur gradually throughout the process?

I saw these changes you speak of when my husband was on the tail end of Replay, in OW Withdrawal, and in the true stage of Depression...he had hot flashes; and his moods were swinging; and I saw tears most of the time.

The tenderness that came with that; never really went away; his hormones stabilized by the time he came out of the tunnel; but the being "in touch" with the female side of him; never left.

I don't know if this will help; it flashed at me that this phase of getting in touch with the opposite side of ourselves, comes during Depression..but that's not an absolute...there have been instances where men were bawling their eyes out during Replay; but my intuition tells me this is a child that's crying; not what you're speaking of; that's part of the maturation within the crisis/transition.

Again, this has do with "balancing" the emotional system; as well as a physical rebalancing of the hormones.

I'm grabbing here, but it's also something to with "equalling' out....and in that process becoming more balanced; physically and emotionally.

I swung from one extreme to the other; until I balanced in whole new way....but I was completely through true Depression before I got completely balanced out..and there were changes I noticed in myself.

And, here I go, thinking this out again.

Maybe this will help. 

I remember it happening in him and in me..but it was also a process to balance ourselves out...another one of the changes that comes with the crisis/transition.

I'd have to argue adjusting to the balance; I don't think, when hormones are high and out of control; that they can be "adjusted" to...something has to happen to put them back in balance.

I say this because when I was going through the transition; I looked like I was a good 20 years older; and mine went high, then low, then high, then low; but when my hormones rebalanced; the changes reversed themselves into the age I was currently when I came out...and I saw this in my husband, too....whether his were high or low; he aged in days and looked like heck...but when the hormones rebalanced; the temporary changes in aging, reversed themselves back to the age he was currently.

There were a few signs that stayed; but not many.

And our hormones to some extent, DO play a part in the aging process..at least I think they do..they influence us quite a bit in so many areas.

There again; to balance out what I'm saying, LOL, each person is different...and genes; heredity play their part, too; in how their systems react to the crisis.

[justasking]

Thanks OP, Remeberer, Bugs and Hb.

Having read more info on this it gets more and more interesting.

I think both the hormones and societies expectations of each gender suppress the female/male side of our consciousness.

Buggy I know what you mean about the OW portraying the projection of the alter ego. My H used to brush his mothers long black hair for her as a child, which is an odd act to be asked to do. I wonder at this stage whether he was allowed to show his feminine side. His mother may have encouraged the feminine side of his consciousness. He cared for her until her death. When she died these feelings and emotions were suppressed to survive.

His father was a rough and hard man. He dolled out the punishment without remorse. At this stage his feminine side would be subdued and pushed away to survive in a 'male' world. H OW is very like his mother and also very needy. I have always believed she is a reflection of his mother and hence his feminine side.

At the moment he is struggling to dump OW and move on through the tunnel. Something is keeping him stuck but I am hopeful the cracks I feel in their relationship will allow H to move away from her. At the moment he is emotionally distant from all of us although I see many moments of potential tears. Maybe he hangs onto his distant to try and stop his feminine side from becoming integrated into his consciousness. This is very different from old H in our marriage who was never visually emotional even when our children were born.

Maybe his anima is demanding to be acknowledged and reintegrated within his consciousness and try as he may at the moment the anima will have her day. I really hope so.

xx