[Trustandlove]

I'm starting this because I found this link that Being a Lighthouse put on AnnStacey's thread:

http://www.manipulative-people.com/recognizing-covert-aggression/

This is behaviour, although very subtle, that I'm suddenly seeing from my MLCer.  I know that he's tried some of this on me during his crisis; I see that I've deflected it somewhat, and now he's trying it on the kids.  That really got my goat, which has prompted me to think more about it.

I can say hand on heart, however, that this behaviour was NEVER seen in him prior to this mess.  Indeed, we didn't really see it for the first years of the crisis, but now are seeing it with this latest OW (number 5, for those who are counting...) 

There is no way that young teens are mature enough to recognise it for what it is; they feel that something is wrong but aren't mature or strong enough to deflect it.

A classic example is my D trying to explain to her father why she wants him to be her dad, and coming to me saying that she'd failed.  I told her straight away that she hadn't failed, that the failure was his for not listening. 

What is heard about that is that saying anything about the failure being his can come across as bashing; we can't be so afraid that we go along with everything they say and do just to avoid being labelled as bashers. 

That's where I found these articles interesting, because they describe the difference.  And our MLCers can become master manipulators, even if they never were before, and mine DEFINITELY wasn't.  Actually, it's specifically BECAUSE they were never like that that makes it even harder to spot, because we're so used to them being honourable. 

I recognised the "levelling" technique that is discussed in one of these articles -- my MLCer trying to make himself out to be the same as me, with the same rights, and so on.  Fact is, his choices mean that he relinquished some of those rights, and yes, there are some behaviours that are superior to others.  Another hard one to navigate. 

What they try to do is to make us feel guilty for their choices.  So they say something such as "I can do what I want when I have the children", which on the surface can seem like a reasonable thing to say, but in reality is designed to make us cower.  It's like saying that if we'd just get someone else then it would all be OK, making it out that WE'RE the bad guy for not having an OM/OW ourselves, so that everyone would be 'even' and the kids would have to be OK with it all, etc. 

OK, rant over

[being a lighthouse]

What I now know is that the bomb drop was at the end of a slow subtle descent. My h didn't become a manipulator overnight, he displayed controlling behaviour , covert agressive behaviour before to some extent but in the years/ months prior to bd it got worse and I didn't see it, I simply didn't see it for what it was.
I thought it was me.

[Trustandlove]

I thought it was me. 

And that's the point -- that's the projection.  It takes a lot for us to see that, and to be able to separate out what really IS us, and the probably huge bit that isn't. 

[Lost]

Can completely relate to that!

During the first phase of his MLC before bomb drop when he was covert depressed and became passive agressive he actually manipulated me into 'nagging' or R talk, even when I looked for active solutions and asked him what his problem with me were he said there were none (haha, and strangely since BD there are hundreds...) - so I thought 'this is just me, he loves me unconditionally, I am just a stupid troublemaker'

Last time he was here in November he made very specific implications about starting a completely new family and planning to have a baby with OW like this year... And he got me into a hysteric, weeping mess (not proud of that...it was just too much...), all on the last night, so it was easier for him to leave that crazy b**** I guess. Even I would be I admit 

Really hoping to slowly grow elephant skin and learn not to be manipulated like this one of these days...months...years (arrgh)
Lost
Really, am not used to this, just hope to grow elephant skin during these days...months...years.
Lost

[crazyjourney]

I can so relate to this too, even my h closest friend said he would manipulate things around in the nicest possible way to get what he wanted.

Funny too that the particular friend only became close to him in latter years so didnt really know him any other way, he still however saw a change in him in the time leading up to last BD.

x

[Anjae]

Thanks for posting, Trustandlove.

I recognised the "levelling" technique that is discussed in one of these articles -- my MLCer trying to make himself out to be the same as me, with the same rights, and so on.  Fact is, his choices mean that he relinquished some of those rights, and yes, there are some behaviours that are superior to others.  Another hard one to navigate. 

I know that thing of the MLCer trying to make themselves out to me the same as us. It doesn't work with me because I always tell Mr J he is the one who messed up, so, he cannot put me in the same bag as he.

Of course Mr J does not like it.

[Faithfully Yours]

Trust and Love,

Thank you so much for sharing this article. I just quickly realized that I have been the victim of this for sometime. And it has seemed to get worse since my Ex-H moved out and now that our divorce is final. He is now so concerned with his image and feels like I have bashed him. Honestly, I can do no right in his eyes. I am on a strict no contact order to keep my sanity and only talk to him about the kids. Hopefully, he will turn the aggressive and manipulative crap over to the OW. Thanks again for the insight. Hugs to you.

[Lost]

But also.... (was only just able to connect to the original article):

It somewhat shows me also how / why our MLCers feel when - even if we just express our current emotions (in the beinning after BD and during our moments of falling back into persueing) we ask them to come back, give us another chance, that we will change...

They also see us then as manipulative, indeed, my H said that to me and I just did not get it (actually, I kind of feel sometimes more as if I was conciously trying to manipulate him now, using advise here on the forum ... but that is also why everybody keeps saying: do the changes for yourself, and only those you really want to as you recognize which ones will improve you, and don't change just for the sake of getting back your spouse). Interesting article.

Yesterday there was one article on yahoo (well at least here) also on how not to go back to your spouse when you have decided out, as they will just swear to change everything...but it will not last, they will go back and the relationship will eventially just be as bad as before.... Got me crazy that article! What if he read it and as another proof that we are just doomed anyway.

This is also why we all need time, so we can already implement the changes that actually make us a better person, practice them, and really change, deep in us and not superficially, so it will be permanent. I still stay optimistic, yes, one can change - did we not all before, sometimes conciously, sometimes just inconsciously with the other challanges live gave us, like living independently, growing a relationship and learn how to compromise, parenthood, illness and/or death of the older generation, etc... But we all know if we really think about it, that also took time. We really have to be patient (which is so difficult as we want the pain to stop), with us, and with them.

It also makes me reflect that I always thought manipulation being something done consciously, but indeed it can also be done inconsciously apparently, so sometimes people can feel manipulated by us even if we never intended to.
Still, I do believe one thing my brother said which he got from MC: "always remember that the other might hurt you, but might not know, even less intend to do so and is just trying to do their best and you might just misunderstand." Still bottom line would be to have talked/shared these feelings, instead of looking outside 'for repair'... But we cannot change that now, it just happened, anyway.

Just thinking loudly...

[cherryblossom]

Thanks for sharing this article T&L - My H has always been passive-aggressive and deceitful but I've noticed the covert aggression most recently.  "If only you'd done xyz", "we didn't know how to communicate" and I have also got the whole "I've paid for everything" BS too.  Much of this is so convincing that you end up believing it yourself.  I believed my H when he told me that he'd paid for everything since we moved into our home together.  Then I got some clarity and checked my bank statements and saw all the payments I'd made to him.  They are VERY good at making you believe their distorted view of reality.   

It took 9 months, from BD, for me to get that my H was playing me.  I can't believe, when I look back, that I was that woman who was so manipulated by my H - for many years way before BD.  He is a classic passive-aggressive.  I wish I'd understood this years ago, so that I could've approached our relationship differently, or ended it.

Knowledge is power.  Understanding the modus operandi of an MLC-er is all part of GAL.

x

[Trustandlove]

I agree that we need to be careful; not everything is manipulation, some of it is just human behaviour.  But I have found that they DO push, and mine NEVER did this before.  I got the "don't you trust me?" not that long after BD, when I was reeling, and immediately felt guilty.  Of course i should trust my H....  and all that. 

It's hard to filter out what is manipulative behaviour and what is sincere, but what gets me is when it gets used on the kids.  And it's hard to talk to them about it, because if I tell them how to answer him, the words stand a VERY good chance of sounding like mine rather than theirs, which of course could be manipulation of another sort...

If it's me I can now answer calmly "don't talk to me like that", or something similar, which diffuses it.  Or repeat one of the things that I've already said ad nauseum, but at least I'm consistent.  Kids wear down more easily....

Grrr.