[The Navigator]

Good evening all,

Thunder asked me to start another thread or advised me that the last one was locked.

It's true.  I've been at this for over ten years.

Here is a rundown of my story so far:

Thread I (started in October 2013)

Thread II (started in September 2016)

My signature just about sums up everything my W and I have been through for over ten years but the threads will give you the long story.

Things are way quieter than when bomb drop occured in January 2008.  We have had three children in the meantime including a little boy who was born last year, but my own journey is not over.

I struggle with forgiving myself for putting up with these antics, there is not much love and affection from my W to me although she's more than happy for me to caress and massage her etc.

I am still learning and will be until I take my last breath.

My heart goes out to everyone here, especially those just beginning to deal with their situation.

Be well,

The Navigator

[OneHotMess]

Following

[Thunder]

Attaching

I hope you are starting to forgive yourself, Navigator.  You're only human. We've all made some mistakes along the way.

Have you ever given any thought to marriage counseling?  I'm only asking because that blow up you had seems there are may be some issues that need to be addressed. 
Your W's deep resentment for your father.  Not that I blame her for being angry at him, but maybe it would help her to forgive him and get past that, for the kids sake.
.
Then her not showing love and affection towards you.  That may be another issue you two could get out in the open.
I don't think you're not going to be happy like that the rest of your life, Navigator.   You could possibly start resenting her eventually.   
Just my opinion, of course and just a suggestion.

Hope all the kiddo's are doing good!   

[The Navigator]

Hi Thunder,

You're right about marriage counselling. We need some help, just to put the last pieces in the puzzle.

It feels like we've built one of those big 3D puzzles and we're struggling to put the last three or four pieces in place and in the right order.

Most marriage counselling is rubbish but I've narrowed it down to two possible sources of help.  I'll do it myself if she won't do it with me.

A pattern in our marriage is me having to force issues. That's how it was when we paid off every cent of our debt. I hadn't lost hope that we could but she had so I just started anyway. As soon as she saw progress she joined me on the journey.

[Whyus]

Coming along Nav, dont beat yourself up anymore about the blow up. It happens and was probably needed to clear the air for a while... we are only human afterall and can only take a certain amount of $h!te being thrown at us
..

[The Navigator]

Yes Whyus,

We can only take a certain amount of sh!te being thrown at us.

I think that most husbands of wives in MLC could stand taking a much tougher approach with their wives, and taking a lot less sh!te.

As much as I went through absolute and total hell from 2008 to 2010, I also was very blunt, direct and uncompromising with my W on a number of matters, like telling her we wouldn't speak again for the rest of Eternity if she found it necessary to divorce me.

[Savoir Faire]

Maybe the counseling without your W will be a good idea to move things along.

[The Navigator]

Another blowup tonight, this time about moving house/money.

For the last year or so, my W has frequently been saying:

"I want a house. I want a house. I want a house. I want a house. I want a house. I want a house. I want a house. I want a house. I want a house. I want a house. I want a house."

To rent mind, not to buy.  We're still not in a financial position to buy and need to save a few more tens of thousands.

This time last year we were still about 10.000,-€ in debt so looking for a new place was out of the question.  Since becoming 100% debt free in July 2017 we have been on vacation four times.  To Poland for a fortnight, 2 months in Australia when I had two months paid parental leave and this year twice, once to Northern Europe and then this month to Ukraine.

Whatever W's emotional priorities have been, her real financial priorities (and mine) have been these family vacations, otherwise we wouldn't have taken them and would have thrown all our energy into looking for a house to rent (and saving up to do so) rather than going away.

We do a budget together every month and not once have we mentioned setting aside cash for a move.  It has never featured in our budget conversations, until tonight.

Since being away for two months, my business pipeline has been empty so there have been a few lean months with very little surplus to save.  The good news is that business is picking up again (after three months hard work) and the next few months are looking much better.

Anyway, we have been looking at places online since about February 2018, we've been to see about 6-7 properties and have found one which more or less meets the criteria.  I've received a draft lease, I have some questions regarding it (they want us to move in June but that is too early for us), and the agent and I have played telephone tennis all day trying to reach each other.  She wanted me to speak with the guy tonight but for whatever reason it didn't happen, so I'm speaking to him tomorrow.  If we can move in mid July it would be doable for us, financially, logistically, and in relation to the kids' schools.

Anway, this isn't to W's liking.

She went nuts, saying she's "sick of how long this is taking" and "You're not looking hard enough at places".

There have been times in the past year when I haven't "been looking" because, honestly, what was the point?  A house move will cost about 9.000,-€ including bond, buying a kitchen, paying someone to help me move, the unexpected, the final clean-up (I'm not doing that) etc.  We could do it but it would mean completely emptying our savings and investments accounts and I am done living that close to the financial abyss.  Been there, done that, and there's nothing I want badly enough that I'll borrow again to make it happen, or make our savings accounts 0,00€.

And since we haven't had the money and/or been actively saving for the move - rather we've been going on holiday instead - my motivation to "look" has been zero.  But we've still looked at places and found a few we liked.

I am more than happy to move.  We are a family of five currently living in a 90 QM (969 square feet), two-bedroomed apartment.  When we moved in five years ago we were still in her MLC and destroyed financially with about 30.000,-€ of debt.  I get why she wants to move, really I do.  I'd love more space, a garden, a basement for my guitars, table-tennis table, model railway - you name it.

I've ****ing had it with this kind of attitude from my W.

I will not be mealy mouthed about this.  I will not make any decision which I know will cause us to financially firetruck ourselves.

I will not make any decision driven by desperation, hysteria and drama.  Not ever.

And if that involves telling W stuff she wish weren't true or doesn't want to hear then so be it.

[Thunder]

Did you try calmly to explain that to her.  You're doing this for your family, not for yourself.

Man Navigator money is one of the top subjects people fight over.
Maybe sit her down and show her your plan for moving in July and then ask her if she sees anyway of changing it so you can move earlier without borrowing money.  Let her try to figure something out.  She just might.
At least it's worth a try.

Possibly if you seriously include her in the plan she may look at it differently.  If she makes a suggestion, look at it, if you see where it would work, ask her.  Tell her you're concerned because you're not sure how it would work.  Have her show you.  Play dumb, but look at it.  Maybe she'll see it for herself.

Then you can thank you for trying, you appreciate her input. 

[KeepItTogether]

I like Thunders approach—involve her in the decision. And all the while making sure you are using the right numbers—for all costs and contingencies associated with the move, etc., so she sees where the money is going. Sounds like you work together on a budget, so this might already have happened.

Sorry there was a blow up. But it’s hard to blow up when half the bomb won’t ignite. Someone has to be the rational one.

Yep, money fights. Pretty common. Hey at least this isn’t about how she loves you but is not in love with you, right?  Too soon?

[in it]

What was that she keeps mentioning?( I want a house I want a house I want a house... )

Navigator if the TWO of you prioritized vacations over saving money to increase your living space. (And the good lord knows you need that after adding another precious life to the family) Then time to review what's important. You make great memories doing those things but with the increased size of the family, living space is important.

Frankly money talks can piss me off pretty good too.

I'm sorry she's putting the pressure on you to "make it happen" before it may be time to. She's frustrated..I know the feeling.

 Maybe she could help look online too? She might feel better if she took a more active role in finding something. (Really July isn't that far away considering)

[The Navigator]

Thanks for the responses guys.

This "blow up" wasn't anything like the one from a fortnight ago. It was heated, she wasn't happy and, once the bad attitude started, neither was I.

It's rare for us to fight about money. We do a budget together every month, our finances are joined, we go through everything together. It's just that we haven't been putting money aside for a house move, even if we allegedly want to do it real bad.  And the thing is we could have put thousands aside for it in the last few months and chose to put money towards other things instead.

We can save aggressively because a) we have no debt, b) we have no car and c) because I have a side hustle (translating) that I can turn on and off like a tap. If we need money in a few months I can basically work every evening and in two months there'd be a bunch of cash there from normal and side work.

But we just haven't been putting the money aside.

In last night's altercation there was no name calling or insults, just a lot of emotion, desperation and sullenness coming from W.

I don't know how to get through to her when she's like that other than being completely blunt, matter of fact and direct.

Borrowing to move is not and never will be an option. If we have to borrow then it means we can't afford it.

I think I may have lived in Germany too long and absorbed German attitudes to debt, work and direct communication. But it's obviously working for them because they have a prosperous, functioning country.

Again, thanks for replying.

[Savoir Faire]

Hopefully, your W will come to you when the dust settles and tries to talk with more thought to your feelings.  I am sure neither of you want to feel like you do now.

I remember that when xH and I had a fight, he would be very factual and I would let emotions get the better of me and say the most stupid things.  It was all because I felt unloved or unheard by him, and that I wasn't worth listening to. I always just needed a hug and told how much he loved me and that we would work together on a solution which rarely happened.  People need to learn how to fight fair.  I truly believe I know that now but he is gone and I don't have that chance.

Men always try to fix things and women just want to be heard and loved.  She loves you, just tell her you love her too.  She will feel calmer buy now and hopefully want to sort things out.

[The Navigator]

Wife has been very apologetic and conciliatory recently after she booked a holiday because her sister is visiting from Australia.  We had briefly discussed the possibility of this but no concrete arrangements. 

Anyway, she went ahead and organised it without telling me and I was ****ing furious.  I found it profoundly inconsiderate, given it would mean I would have to take time off work and that she is taking our S8 (because we can't all afford to go).

I was especially angry because she had spent the best part of a month getting on my case about moving into a new house, blaming me for it not happening, and then she goes and indulges in the very behaviour that has prevented us improving our living arrangements all along - thoughtless spending.

There was no name-calling or insults this time but I did make it very clear how I felt about it.  Is said it felt utterly hypocritical to me.

She said she felt "compelled" to do it because her sister was coming over and that "she won't be coming to Germany for a few more years".

Anyway, what's good enough of the goose is good enough for the gander.  I am going to England for a week in may to visit my parents, sisters, uncles and aunties and taking D7 and S1 with me.  The biggest expense will be the 380,-€ spent on the flights to get there.

I think my W is nuts.  She is going to be apart from S1 for nine days and will probably miss him terribly.

She has promised to "make it up to me".  Curious as to what that might entail.

[Savoir Faire]

Very inconsiderate of your W Navigator, what happened to 'communication' which is so vital after MLC?

She needs to re-evaluate what is really important to her.  I'm not sure your 'tit for tat' reaction was the best idea?  Pretty juvenile of both of you in this case.

Possibly taking a course on improving  communication would benefit you both.  If you keep going on this way, the marriage could end.  Such terrible role models for your children, I hope you don't drag them into this relationship style of madness.

Read your own post again and see how terrible it is!

[in it]

Well to hell with it..if you both aren't on the same page to get a different place..just keep spending the money whatever way you want to!

Just let her know that all either of you are doing is putting priorities in other places and you do not want to hear "I want a house I want a house I want a house" in the near future. You are either in this together or you aren't.

If you both need or want to go visit family then go do it and try not to regret it financially.

[The Navigator]

Very inconsiderate of your W Navigator, what happened to 'communication' which is so vital after MLC?

Communication?

Most times it happens, sometimes it doesn't.

I told my wife that the worst thing about this particular situation is that I know she will do it again.

She needs to re-evaluate what is really important to her.

She does.  I said to her that she can bleat all she wants about a house being the most important thing to her but that it evidently isn't, otherwise she would have been insisting we put money aside for a move all this time.  If her words and her actions are out of sync then her words become worthless instantaneously.

Instead she has been more than happy to go on vacation instead.

I'm not sure your 'tit for tat' reaction was the best idea?  Pretty juvenile of both of you in this case.

So what am I supposed to do?

This holiday is presented to me as a fait accompli and I'm checkmated into taking leave because D7 and S1 need looking after.

If I have to take leave then I'm certainly not going to sit around at home - I'm going to do something worthwhile with it, otherwise it's a complete waste.

I'm done with this "being the better person" crap.  Look where it's got all of us on here.  Granted, my wife and I are still married, have made a family and it's more positive than it is negative, but our marriage still isn't what it could be.

Possibly taking a course on improving communication would benefit you both.  If you keep going on this way, the marriage could end.

I know, and I am more or less in the process of making peace with this outcome.

Our kids saw us get out of debt and build a four month reserve (which we still have) but I would agree that our marriage isn't one which I want them to have.

My parents' marriage is not a role model for my own one either.

[Thunder]

I'm sorry Navigator,  I would have been angry too.  You worked so hard to get out of debt.  It was pretty thoughtless on her part.

I hope things work out for you two.

Just make it very clear you NEED to know if she is going to book something ahead of time.  Or any decision, when it comes to spending a large amount on something.

Well, enjoy your family trip.

[Ready2Transform]

Your holiday is at the same time as hers, so it bears no extra burden on her. I don't think it's tit-for-tat as much as resolving that the house thing isn't going to happen and you are taking advantage of the time off to do something with the other kids that benefits them.

They hypomanic-like planning and spending on a whim brings back memories. Unfortunately that wasn't just MLC behavior for mine, but it has definitely gotten worse during this. It's good people see there isn't a "magical resolve" of all of their issues, but I'm sorry you're having to experience it still. I'm glad you weren't farther along in securing a new home before she did this!

[Busy_Bee]

Nav,
10 years later, same BS...why? because she can...

[shopgirl]

Following along.

[The Navigator]

Still here and lurking from time to time.

Went back to my old haunts in England last month for nine days and it ripped opened some old wounds.  Have been referred a very good counsellor by an old friend and I'm going to use him to get this last bit of healing done.

I'm prepared to run into any pain rather than away from it.  I need to move through and past all of this.

Hang in there gang.

The Navigator.

[Savoir Faire]

Glad you're getting some help for the trauma, Navigator.  The triggers go on forever and we do need help with these.

Hopefully you can both settle down and talk more.

Please remember how important this was to you to reconcile and don't throw away the chance most of us would give a lot for.

[Anjae]

Glad to know you're getting the help you need to help on this part of your journey.

[The Navigator]

Thanks for your responses guys.

Much appreciated. 

Feeling very low at the moment.  Got to get to the bottom of this and off this merry-go-round.

[Savoir Faire]

Our monkey braining does us a huge disfavor.  Best just to let things be and try to get to a place of acceptance, once and for all.

You have us here to cheer you on

[in it]

Yeah monkey braining..hmmm.
Doesn't do any good.
Sorry you are feeling low.

[KeepItTogether]

Good for you Navigator in proactively getting help for your healing. Many of us try to push away the hurt—well I do anyway. All that does is bury it for the moment only to have it re-emerge at a most inopportune moment. So good for you. Reconnecting is rough. And you’re in the thick of it. Stay strong friend. You got this.

[The Navigator]

OK.

We have found a house, signed a rental agreement and will move in at the beginning of September.  That cooincides with the beginning of the school year in Germany too.

Completely overwhelmed with preparing for the move, looking after the children, working extra so we can save a bigger pile of money to make it happen and dealing with some issues that we have in our current apartment.  It's an old 60s building, there is some damage caused by damp and condensation which we may be liable for.

Marriage seems to be better.  Wife has insisted we have a few evenings together playing cards which we have done.  I tell her "I miss you", half tongue-in-cheek, on a regular basis because what I really mean is I miss the times when I had her all to myself.  Not that I would ever be without our three children.

We celebrated 19 years together this past week.  19 years since we had our first date.

She has been suggesting we do things together recently, to the extent that's possible with three kids.  Cards has been her idea.  I usually call her just before she picks the kids up from school as she's walking with the baby in the pram (school is a 10 minute walk from us) and he's usually sleeping then.

So much more I could write and so little time to do it.  "Baby" actually just started walking this past week too.

Feeling better than in June but still have moments of sadness and depression.  It feels like the "death" of something.  Hopefully the "death" of my old life and the beginning of a new one.  I seem to have moved past the anger from everything which occurred between 2008 and 2015.  There some hours where I feel really low at the moment and I just want to withdraw from everyone and everything other than my close family.

I'll get there, as will all of us.

[The Navigator]

Moved into the new rental house on 1st September.

Still dealing with a bit of depression here and there.  Feeling very withdrawn and short fused. 

Can deal with my own children and wife but do my own thing at lunchtime to avoid chatting with colleagues.  Very withdrawn from just about everything other than my family.

Working pretty much every waking hour.  When I'm not at my full time role then I'm either translating or proofreading at home.

All the lights still need to be installed and curtain rails hung in our new house.  W will either have to wait until I have time or we'll have to pay someone else to come in and do the work - who probably has better DIY skills that I do anyway.

I can put furniture together, pack a moving van (I did that job for years at weekend) and fix a computer but the moment you ask me to drill holes into masonry or ceilings I'm stuffed.

[OffRoad]

Drilling holes is easy. Getting them in the right place is another story.😄 Are you allowed to drill holes in a rental? How were the curtains hung before you got there, inquiring minds want to know?

Enjoy the new place and extra room. I hope there is a place for you to withdraw occasionally,  and read a book alone or something. Quiet time is sometimes essential to our well being. Remember that it's not only about your W and kids. YOU matter, too.

Take care of Navigator.

[Anjae]

Enjoy your new place, Navigator.

[The Navigator]

Wishing all of you a very happy new year.

Christmas was wonderful this year. It was just we five in our new home, I intentionally took my SIM out of my smartphone and put it in an old Nokia. No smartphone for two weeks and, curiously, about 4 people called me on my mobile in that time.

Lots of time spent with the kids. Taking them to parks, playing electric guitar and table football in the basement, going on bus rides, going ice skating.

W and I had nice times too. Played cards in the evening, had long chats etc.

"Baby" is walking, climbing and dancing now. He absolutely loves music and always tries to copy the dance moves if watching a music DVD.

W's sister in Australia is unraveling big time. I am ultimately convinced that it is "Daddy issues" at play. Out of all six siblings, she had the very least amount of time with her Dad growing up.

Stay safe everyone.

[in it]

Happy New Year to you too!
That little one is on the move already? 
They grow up quick

[The Navigator]

Hey in it

They do grow up quickly!! He's 20 months old now and into everything.

His vocabulary is growing at a rate of knots too, including with words he's simply made up for things.

Off to London in a few weeks to meet all my old mates from boarding school.

Hope you are well!

[Savoir Faire]

Happy New Year Navigator, sounds like it's going to be wonderful for you

[in it]

Yep I'm doing ok ...
New life stuff is really going good and it's a much more down to earth, honest, real, satisfying and realistic relationship.

[The Navigator]

Hoping all of you are well, especially you in it!

Life feels "normal" at the moment. The only thing I really have time for is work and family nowadays.  We went away to Dresden last weekend (all 5 of us).

I am afraid to use the dark purple "reconnected" colour on here lest complacency sets in on my part.

[in it]

Hi Navigator

Yep things are still going well. Having our share of challenges but help each other through them.
Complancey can undermine a relationship.
I myself would say you certainly have earned a purple book.

[The Navigator]

Great to hear that things are going well, in it.

Things OK here too. W even admits to loving me. Imagine that.

That purple book thing...... hard to feel it applies to me.

Learning and vigilance is eternal.

Really have no idea what I'd "advise" anyone on here. You ultimately have to consult and submit to your intuition.  To that "still small voice".  Although there were many times when I wanted to quit emotionally, that wanting to quit was never permanent. There was never a time when I felt "done" and many times when I wished I could be "done".

Hang in there everybody, whatever path you choose.

[in it]

   
She actually said those three little words?

[Whyus]

 
She actually said those three little words?

Nice, really happy for you Nav  . You waited along time for this and deserve all the joy in the world along with a Purple book 

[Savoir Faire]

Navigator, your last post resonated with me in a big way.

I often wish I just decided to 'move on' but that little voice tells me to wait.  Many times I wish the voice would go away.

[The Navigator]

Everyone here hanging in there?

All good here, just busy working and raising our three children. "Baby" turned 2 last month and loves music DVDs. Sings all the time such that you can recognise the songs.

Wife and I are OK. I had an impromptu day off work the other day as our systems were down, which she was very happy about. This month and next month are lean - no commission - so that has caused a bit of tension.

Best to all,
The Navigator

[in it]

Two already? 
Well lean times might mean you have to get a bit more creative about quailty time together. Keep communication open. Seems like she wanted to have you around on that day off.

 Count your blessings.
If everyone is healthy and  you can pay the bills, you have a roof over your head, and food on the table.
You are more blessed than you know

[Anjae]

Thank you for the update, Navigator.

[The Navigator]

Thanks so much for responding everyone.

Nothing much else to write about.  Life consists of work and family. Wife and I still have an active sex life - especially if, like last week, I have an impromptu day off work and it's just us at home.

When I'm not at work I help my children with their homework, go on family outings with W and the three children, work in the garden etc.  Really boring to most onlookers. I thank whatever Higher Power there may be that the two older kids are doing great at school.

There is some travel on the horizon. Barcelona (with work), England this August (family) and Serbia this October (family). We love travel so that's something to look forward to.

My wife and I will celebrate 20 years since we met this summer and will probably drive to France that weekend.

Our oldest son (9) wanted to move his bedroom from the attic into the basement so we helped him do that. I took his bed apart and rebuilt it in his new room.  When I went into his old bedroom and saw it completely empty I felt like sobbing. I thought to myself "This is what it must be like for empty-nesters once the children have moved out, and what we can expect." I absolutely must make the most of the time I have with the children - while we can still speak into their lives - because before I know it they will have left home and be making their own lives.

Sincerest best wishes to all,

The Navigator

[Anjae]

Life consists of work and family.

Seems great if you ask me. 

When I'm not at work I help my children with their homework, go on family outings with W and the three children, work in the garden etc.  Really boring to most onlookers. I thank whatever Higher Power there may be that the two older kids are doing great at school.

Normal, non-MLC life is "boring". Think all LBS choose normal "boring" over MLC crazy. 

Hope you and wife have a good 20th anniversary.

[The Navigator]

My wife and our three children left for Australia a month ago.

MIL has advanced kidney cancer and W went to look after and spend time with her. She was having immunotherapy but the doctors stopped it as she wasn't responding to her treatment.

She's now in a palliative care home and close to death.

I am flying to join them for three weeks, mostly to unburden my beautiful wife so she can spend as much time with her Mum as possible in her last days.

Really looking forward to seeing my children after a month apart. W and the kids and I have been in constant contact through letters, phone calls and Skype. I've sent the kids lots of letters, activity books and pictures. W has also received her own letters from me and a huge bunch of her favourite flowers for our 20th anniversary, which we spent 10,000 miles apart.

Very sad, mostly because my W is very sad and I want to be there for her.

I have packed a suit in case I have to attend a burial.

In good times and in bad, as long as ye both shall live.

[readytofixmyselffirst]

Hello,

I am so sorry for you and your family at this time. The strength of your family is how you respond to the current situation. A great friend of mine lost her husband recently. This man was her rock for decades and as I entered the service I was worried she would be a wreak.

Instead, she was singing praise to God and was as strong as ever. It is the faith and acceptance of the love of GOD that pulls you together or pulls you apart.

Take care of your family and be the glue that keeps all of you together.

You are in my prayers,

(((((Ready)))))

[Mortesbride]

Sad that your wife is going through this.

I have been there myself.

Very happy that you are going to help her for the last three weeks.

Watching your parent die slowly, knowing the end is coming is a terrible thing. But it can also be a gift. It frees you from all the awkwardness, and the ''I will ask them one day'', if they are lucid it gives you the chance to ask them now.

I went to visit my dad the year before he died, and healed a lot of wounds. There is something freeing in being able to communicate what is deep in your heart because you know this is THE time.

I am so very happy you are going to support her. I still wish that Beast had done the same for me.

[Anjae]

I'm sorry to hear about your MIL, navigator.

[The Navigator]

MIL passed away 2 hours ago.

W's two sisters were there when it happened. W was there the night before but has now gone to join them.

As sad as I am for them, I'm glad I got to see MIL one last time and, above all, that I am here to look after our three kids and support W.

W is allowed to be a ball of emotional mush. I must be her rock, her source of strength.

[KeepItTogether]

Prayers to you and your lovely family.

I must be her rock, her source of strength.

I know you will be, as you have always been.

[Anjae]

I'm so sorry for your and your family loss, Navigator.

[Nas]

I’m very sorry to hear about your family’s loss.

[Rosetintedglasses]

Sending you love, support and strength.

Look after yourself too
💕💕

[The Navigator]

Thank you so much for your well wishes guys.

My MIL was a very difficult person, such that it was impossible for me to really have any kind of relationship with her. In life I limited my contact with her and she was "banned" from our house on more than one occasion. She was very mean to my W and her two sisters while they were growing up. She had some character and behavioural traits which were completely at odds with my own moral compass: ingratitude (a big one for me), sense of entitlement, verbally abusive.

This made me limit the amount of contact I sought with her. My relationship with her was one I had to "manage", much like a diabetic has to manage their own diabetes.

Her two other sons-in-law feel more or less the same. One BIL of mine made it clear that she was to be out of the house by the time he returned from work. She was around most days as she lived a 10 minute walk away from BIL and SIL.

Still, I am sad, and I wouldn't have wished that suffering on her - never once. Like her daughters, I really did hope that she would get better.

I genuinely don't think she could help the way she was, I don't think she had any idea just how objectionable her behaviour was. She'd mouth off at you one day then the next day she'd spend two hours in the shops carefully choosing your birthday gift.

Above all I'm very sad for my W. Whenever I see her crying I feel like crying too. I'm really glad I came to Australia to help her, support her and be her rock.

The funeral is at the end of next week. I will be needing that suit that I packed after all. I've been asked to be a pall bearer.

[Mortesbride]

Well..

Sometimes the passing of those whose relationship wasn't so good can be the hardest.

It can mean there is no chance to 'fix' the relationship you have, or somehow...have a different one. The story just ends, and never ''has a happy ending''.

[The Navigator]

Whatever "relationship" we had really was the best it possibly could have been. Of that I am firmly convinced.

The main sadness I feel is due to my wife's sadness.

Of course I would love to have had a better relationship with MIL but it was what it was.

The world is what it is, not what I wish it would be.

[Albatross]

I know how hard is losing parents, my both gone. My condolences Nav.

[in it]

Yes it's very sad when a parent can't treat their own children like a human being with feelings.
.
You are there for your W and that's what matters.
May God's love comfort you both at this difficult time.

[The Navigator]

Thanks for thinking of me in it.  Great to hear from you.

We had a good vacation at the end of October. Went to Serbia with my mother to meet her cousins whom she had never met (her Dad was a Serbian patriot and had to flee his homeland when the Commies won in WWII).

W and 3 kids came too. A wonderful time was had by all.

W still has teary moments.  This will take time I know.

[Disillusioned]

Navigator:

"Beaten paths are for beaten men."  I don't think I've ever seen that before and I love it.  So glad to see that you are successfully outlasting MLC. 

[in it]

Glad you got away for a bit. And things went well.

Yes it will take time, time for her to grieve.  And your gift to her will be to be there for her and let her talk and cry and do whatever she may need to in order to process it.  Hold or hug her if that feels right.

It will not help to tell her she's been grieving too long or anything say insensitive like "Buck up" " or "you should be over this by now" or "stop crying!" (I got those).

 No one should try to control someone else's emotions. She isn't sad because of anything you did. There's nothing that can be done to fix this. I know a lot of guys are uncomfortable when women cry. They may try to rush their wives and/or loved ones through a difficult time due to it. They come of as insensitive jerks.

The pain/grief of loss doesn't really go away. It just sort of changes in time passing.
Regardless of how healthy or unhealthy a relationship was, it is still a loss. 

[The Navigator]

It will not help to tell her she's been grieving too long or anything say insensitive like "Buck up" " or "you should be over this by now" or "stop crying!" (I got those).

The chances of me ever saying anything like that to my W are exactly zero.

If she's stood in the kitchen and starts bawling then I hold her. I don't speak, I just hold her, for as long as required.

[in it]

Good she just needs to know you are there.

[The Navigator]

Greetings all.

More than 12 years have passed since BD.

All is well in my world and I hope in yours too. "in it" if you still come here then I sincerely hope you're well.

W and I still married. Little son is now 3 years old, is a laugh a minute and loves playing with his older brother and sister.

The kids are also old enough to "babysit" their little brother while he's having his midday nap so W and I go on coffee dates at the café opposite our house.

Stay strong and resolute, all of you, in whatever course you have chosen. There's no right or wrong one.

[Seahorse]

Navigator -
I didn't know you "personally" on the site, but have read some of your posts.
So happy for you, and the strength of your marriage.

Pop in every once-in-awhile again to let us know how you're doing.
Reconciliation is always lovely to read about, and gives so many hope.

Sea

[xyzcf]

Hi Navigator, so very good to hear from you.

Very glad to hear that you made it through and that life sounds very happy now...thanks for sharing with us and take care of yourself and your family!

[in it]

Yep Navigator I'm still here..not sure why.

Things are going ok as they can be. I've moved on, very happy with the new man in my life. Now if I could just get a bit more of this figured out I might have a little more peace. Other things I'm working on trying to get done to help get me to that peace of mind.

 Now it's not ME holding ME back..there's something trying to slow me down! 

Glad to hear things are still calm and moving forward.

[The Navigator]

Just checking in.

Nothing much to report other than W and I celebrated 21 years together in July, we've recently done road trips to Poland, Slovenia and Italy and we have "dates" at weekends during the afternoon when S3 is asleep. S10 and D9 "babysit" him and we go to the coffee shop across the street and chat for a few hours.

Working at home 2 days per week. W apparently wishes it were more.

My Dad (71) in England is showing the first signs of dementia. Gets completely confused processing new information or dealing with numbers (online banking), has forgotten how to keep score on a cribbage board (he must have played it for 50 years), and he's forgotten how to play "Connect 4". He also forgets words for things, says "the thing with the bubble in it" rather than "spirit level".

This is a real mixed bag of emotions. I don't really have a "relationship" with Dad as such. We're not estranged, but we speak very seldom. It's a mixed bag for my sister who lives locally too. He was physically present when we were little but emotionally "elsewhere". We grew up with zero self-esteem, feeling about as significant as a small speck of **** on the toilet bowl which hadn't been noticed during cleaning.

Focus is supporting and unburdening my mother (67) as much as possible. We also have another sister in her late 30s in assisted living who needs lots of care.

Anyway, grateful for my life now aged 44. Have a lovely W and 3 beautiful children, no debt, normal weight, normal blood pressure, good job. Also grateful to be in regular contact with friends I've had for more than 30 years.

[in it]

Good Navigator all sounds good. It would be hard I would think to help with father who treated you" less than " then try to have concern for him.  Has he been diagnosed yet?

Help who you can which would be your mother.

Grateful, grateful, grateful is the key to contentment.

[The Navigator]

Hey in it,

Great to hear from you and see you're still here.

Yes, helping Mum is the top priority. My sister, Mum and I have been sorting out power of attorney should both of them cease to be compos mentis.

I don't think Dad actively set out to be belittling but he did it expertly with my sister and me. He simply doesn't "get" how his behaviour and attitude impacts on those closest to him so I've erected the Berlin Wall around myself.

[Songanddance]

Hi Navigator

Thanks for popping by.  Your update has given me a little more encouragement.  7.5 yrs on from BD and seemingly stuck in reconnection - beginning to feel as though it's a waste of my time and energy.   

Thanks though for showing that life does get good and that rebuilding is possible.

I'm sorry to hear about your dad - know the feeling as I had it with my mum although mercifully it was shortlived owing to a very nasty fall that ultimately created other health problems that we knew nothing about.
However my MIL had Dementia for 10 years and towards the end it was difficult.  So you're right to build a Berlin Wall to help with your resilience - keep a chink open now and then though....

[The Navigator]

Good evening Board,

I sincerely wish everyone here a very happy new year.

There is nothing really to add to my "situation". We're locked down here in Germany, I work from home 3 or more days per week, the two older children are doing school from home with their teachers and classes.

Can't believe my wife and I have been married nearly 19 years, together 21.5 years.

I am doing a lot of work on myself at the moment, going back into the past, right to when I was 18 months old. I still remember things from that early in my life.

It's absolutely imperative that I make peace with the past. There are some demons in my past, which is the same for many of us, There's nothing I can do about the past - it is what it is - I just want to be free of it. I want freedom.

Stay safe everyone.

[Seahorse]

Navigator -
Thanks for coming here and updating.
I wish you the best of luck in sorting out your past, and am so happy that you and your family are still together.

Stay safe also.

Sea

[readytofixmyselffirst]

Hello,

I am doing a lot of work on myself at the moment, going back into the past, right to when I was 18 months old. I still remember things from that early in my life.

This is quite amazing. I can't even remember 18 seconds ago. I find myself in a room and asking myself, "Why am I here. I know I am here for a reason, but can't remember.  So the fact that you can go so far back is incredible.

It's absolutely imperative that I make peace with the past. There are some demons in my past, which is the same for many of us, There's nothing I can do about the past - it is what it is - I just want to be free of it. I want freedom.

This is a lot of work. I don't have a lot of demons, but somehow they manage to creep up from time to time. Most of mine come from the ages of 15-22. To be honest, I was a self-centered know-it-all and basically a complete jerk. Personally, I would really dislike going back to being a teenager so I hope I never have my own mid life crisis. Now, I pass for a half way decent human being, but there is always room for growth.

Can't believe my wife and I have been married nearly 19 years, together 21.5 years.

Keep us up to date and make sure you continue to celebrate all the successes, both big and small. So often focus on our failures with a magnifying glass that we overlook the abundance of the little great things we do everyday!

((((Ready))))

[The Navigator]

So you're right to build a Berlin Wall to help with your resilience - keep a chink open now and then though....

Hi Song & Dance,

I owe you a response.

Thanks for replying. Regarding that Berlin Wall ..... it was actually possible to cross the original Berlin Wall which stood from 1961 to 1989, but it could only be done with either great cunning and ingenuity or by crossing at official crossing points, with the correct permits. And those permits were extremely difficult to obtain.

That's the Wall I've got up around my heart when it comes to Dad. I love him very much, he's the only Dad I'll ever have, and I also know what he's like. He's to be managed like a hazardous substance, with the right protective gear and with limited exposure. It can be done, but you need a plan.