Author Topic: My Story  A New And Different Growing - Where Will It Lead? III  (Read 2973 times)

Offline AnjaeTopic starter

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My Story A New And Different Growing - Where Will It Lead? III
« on: June 01, 2018, 10:14:33 AM »
New thread. Carry on with the same subject/title.

There is still a new and different growing happening. It is not linear, at times, it seems to have set-backs. I think the "set-backs" mean either some things need more time to be processed or that neutral/nothing happening time is necessary.

We often get puzzled how the MLCer seems stuck, but, from personal experience, I am not so certain they get really stuck. More like they are still on the same cycle within Replay (or any other MLC phase). A push forward will come, most likely one we can barely, if at all see.

It all take a very long time. Too long in many cases.

But I do think it is rare for a MLCer to get really stuck/never come out of MLC or for a LBS not to keep growing and changing.




Previous thread: http://mlcforum.theherosspouse.com/index.php?topic=9695.0
Sometimes good things fall apart so better things can fall together. (Marilyn Monroe)

Offline Thunder

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Re: A New And Different Growing - Where Will It Lead? III
« Reply #1 on: June 01, 2018, 10:20:32 AM »
Welcome to your new thread, Anjae!   :)
A quote from a recovered MLCer: 
"From my experience if my H had let me go a long time ago, and stop pressuring me, begging, and pleading and just let go I possibly would have experienced my awakening sooner than I did."

Offline AnjaeTopic starter

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Re: A New And Different Growing - Where Will It Lead? III
« Reply #2 on: June 01, 2018, 10:23:41 AM »
Thank you, Thunder.  :)

I agree with you so much.  There are not a lot of old timers here anymore (7 1/2 years for me) and I think it would not only be helpful to newbies but for us as well. 

I am glad you agree with me. It would bring another sort of views and experiences to HS.

I have questions sometimes but there aren't a lot of long term standers left to ask and the newbies, of course wouldn't know.  Their just finding their way.

No there aren't. And I don't even think it has to be standers. Just long term LBS. Some things require a long term LBS. And yet, there are more and more of us at 7, 9, 12 years since BD.

When HS started I don't think that was the case. Everyone was pretty much expecting their MLCer would be out of crisis soon. Even if, when I come here, Mr J had been in MLC for 4 years and a few months.

But reconnecting or reconciling isn't always smooth and without some problems.

It isn't. And we see it on the threads of those reconnecting or reconciled.
« Last Edit: June 01, 2018, 10:34:55 AM by Anjae »
Sometimes good things fall apart so better things can fall together. (Marilyn Monroe)

Offline Helpingme!

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Re: A New And Different Growing - Where Will It Lead? III
« Reply #3 on: June 01, 2018, 10:27:46 AM »
Following along Anjae.

Offline Thunder

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Re: A New And Different Growing - Where Will It Lead? III
« Reply #4 on: June 01, 2018, 10:34:46 AM »
Look at you for example, you were doing a lot of admin stuff on here (which I still miss you doing   ;D) and you posted on people's threads helping out where you could, yet you didn't really say a lot about your own life.

Now you do and it's nice.  I've learned things I didn't know about your sitch.   :)

I really don't post on mine much at all because basically nothing changes, it's pretty boring news from me.  ha ha
A quote from a recovered MLCer: 
"From my experience if my H had let me go a long time ago, and stop pressuring me, begging, and pleading and just let go I possibly would have experienced my awakening sooner than I did."

Offline serenity

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Re: A New And Different Growing - Where Will It Lead? III
« Reply #5 on: June 01, 2018, 10:58:44 AM »
Following along - as always

Hugs

X

Offline Mitzpah

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Re: A New And Different Growing - Where Will It Lead? III
« Reply #6 on: June 01, 2018, 11:12:44 AM »
Anjae,

We old timers have got to stick together, I guess ;)


We often get puzzled how the MLCer seems stuck, but, from personal experience, I am not so certain they get really stuck. More like they are still on the same cycle within Replay (or any other MLC phase). A push forward will come, most likely one we can barely, if at all see.



I agree with you here, it seems a bit like how records used to get stuck in the same groove, remember? very irritating :P then suddenly, they seem to jump over the 'stuck' part, the problem was replaying the record, it would get stuck again >:(  ::)



M 57
H 56
S 26
S 25
D 23
BD 13 Dec 2010
Divorced 27 Feb 2015 (30 years marriage)

"For I know the plans I have for you," declares the LORD, "plans to prosper you and not to harm you, plans to give you hope and a future" Jeremiah 29:11

Offline The lighthouse

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Re: A New And Different Growing - Where Will It Lead? III
« Reply #7 on: June 01, 2018, 02:20:12 PM »
Following along Anjae.

Another long timer here.  It will be 7 years at the end of this month.

I too would like to see more old timers posting.
M 1992
BD June 2011
Still with OW - No legal action

I am the lighthouse. I don't go out into the storm after the ship.  The ship finds me.

Offline AnjaeTopic starter

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Re: A New And Different Growing - Where Will It Lead? III
« Reply #8 on: June 01, 2018, 06:15:17 PM »
Hello Helpingme!, Serenity, Mitzpah, and Lighthouse. Hi again, Thunder.  Welcome aboard. :-)

Look at you for example, you were doing a lot of admin stuff on here (which I still miss you doing   ;D) and you posted on people's threads helping out where you could, yet you didn't really say a lot about your own life.

Tech stuff.  ;) :)

I was looking after grandmother, there wasn't much to say. My life was pretty much that at the time.

There are a bunch of threads from when I was doing the Coursera neuroscience courses and the first ones (a bit of mess, like pretty much all our first threads).

Posting does not have to be about constant change, or major change. Or the change(s) may have nothing to do with our MLCer and his/her crisis. They be our changes, and they may be internal.

You're reconciled, it makes sense nothing changes. At least not the change that happens during Replay or even reconnection. At a point, I think reconciliation is life as usual. As it should be.

What I know is that the growing and changing I have been going through of late is quite interesting. At times, it is weird, it may even had its "bad" days. But the way I look at certain things is very different from BD, even from a couple years ago. And not just MLC related things.

I don't know if it is because of MLC or it would happen anyway, since even there is not MLC in the picture we change. Also because some of my changes are biological/physical/hormonar. Peri-menopause is a parallel universe. If it wasn't for HS and the advice and help of many, not sure I would be navigating it as well. Women in my family when from have a montly to not have one without bumps.

We old timers have got to stick together, I guess ;)

We do. Without stop provinding help and advice to newbies and those in the middle

I agree with you here, it seems a bit like how records used to get stuck in the same groove, remember?

I do.  :)   Yes, it would got stuck again if we replayed it. But with MLC, both for LBS an MLCer, a time will come and the stuck is gone. Or there may a new "stuck", but it will different and will lead to another point in the journey.


I too would like to see more old timers posting.

It would be great, wouldn't it? Having more old timers posting.

And yet, now there are several of us at 7 years or more since BD in this thread alone. Very different from HS early days.

But I do think we need more old timers stories and posts, regarless of their outcome/situation.
Sometimes good things fall apart so better things can fall together. (Marilyn Monroe)

Offline nah

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Re: A New And Different Growing - Where Will It Lead? III
« Reply #9 on: June 02, 2018, 04:52:53 AM »
5+ years for me. Maybe we should start an old timers thread.  :)

Mine has been very quiet but even that’s a change. Any change is movement.
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Offline Wonder no more

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Re: A New And Different Growing - Where Will It Lead? III
« Reply #10 on: June 02, 2018, 05:46:11 AM »
I'm still here since.  August will be 8 years since BD.  I never post on my own thread because there is nothing new.  I actually feel guilty sometimes because I was blessed to have a rare MLCer that made it through and got his act together.

Offline serenity

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Re: A New And Different Growing - Where Will It Lead? III
« Reply #11 on: June 02, 2018, 06:27:26 AM »
Ooh nah! I’m all for an old timers group!

Please start one🙏🏻

X

Offline Thunder

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Re: A New And Different Growing - Where Will It Lead? III
« Reply #12 on: June 02, 2018, 06:31:11 AM »
I second the motion!   :)
A quote from a recovered MLCer: 
"From my experience if my H had let me go a long time ago, and stop pressuring me, begging, and pleading and just let go I possibly would have experienced my awakening sooner than I did."

Offline xyzcf

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Re: A New And Different Growing - Where Will It Lead? III
« Reply #13 on: June 02, 2018, 02:04:19 PM »
Quote
But I do think it is rare for a MLCer to get really stuck/never come out of MLC or for a LBS not to keep growing and changing.

Sometimes, I wonder if it might have been "better" for me to have gone through the end of our marriage 9 years ago, to finalize and clarify that  this relationship was no longer in existence, it was totally done then, as it seems to be now anyway. Perhaps it would have really been in the past but the idea that his crisis could end, that he might return home, that my family would be intact was what I believed in. That really seemed to be something that was possible.

And so we debated, paving the way, contact no contact, GALing, wearing rings or not...debated and questioned and brought up theories and ideas of causation...knowing as we all do, that there was something really wrong with this....leaving a happy family life so suddeningly and doing so many things that were against their values and beliefs, not remaining attached to their children...so many "proofs" that something was seriously wrong with them.

I smile now when I think of the terms we use, that we understand, "monster", "replay", "running", "affair down", "movement"....driving home from a golf clinic this afternoon, I saw a Covenant Transport Truck.....somehow, that used to be a "sign" of some sort.

Could I have taken a different direction than I did? To avoid so many years of depression and sadness and functioning on one cylinder only...should I have locked the door and thrown away the key...never looking back, never allowing him into my life only to hurt me so many times?

Perhaps. But then I might have always wondered....did I do everything possible to create a safe space for him to come home when his crisis was over?

I don't share my story with him on HS....I do comment on some threads although much less so and I stay in contact with a few people who know me and know my story, both for their support and kindness as well as any insight that they have...that helps me still.....

I no longer anxiously scan to look for "purple" icons...for indeed, every story is different.

I agree that MLCers do not remain "stuck for eternity" but sadly that means that as so many years go by, they develop their own lives......I am not the woman he loved either anymore...so I do not know that there is anything left of us..it sure doesn't seem so.

It is good to connect with you, friends who have shared so much of their pain and their growth...it does worry me a bit though, although it is reality, for newer members to see the number of years that some of us have existed in this crazy state...almost impossible to comprehend the years that I have lost.

I am trying to make sure I do not miss anymore of my life because of the darkness that this has caused, for me and my daughter....but somehow it seems, just when I am finding some peace and joy...I find out about something else that still has the power to shatter my world...and I am not alone in this.....some close LBS friends that I am friends with also are still left with a world that has not come back to what was before BD.....

Wish we all lived close to one another....it would be lovely to be able to encounter life with people who understand why I am not quite the person I should be.

XO
« Last Edit: June 02, 2018, 02:07:38 PM by xyzcf »
"Now faith is being sure of what we hope for and certain of what we do not see" Hebrews 11:1

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Offline serenity

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Re: A New And Different Growing - Where Will It Lead? III
« Reply #14 on: June 02, 2018, 02:43:43 PM »
I wish that too xyz,

I wish we were all close and in the same country too! There’s so many of us that I’d like to sit and talk with. People who understand me and what I’ve been through.

I was just messsging an old friend in RL and I said I mostly wear a mask to the outside world, to people in RL. No one wants to see me sad or unhappy. So I pretend I’m fine and all is great. But in truth it’s not, despite all my lovely friends and family, my loneliness persists, my inner sadness persists.

Even if my H did get through and beat this thing he’s ruined the lovely marriage that we had. The trust, the easiness we had with each other. The silly ‘in’ jokes. It all comes with spending a lifetime with that person! Even if I met someone now there isn’t the time to have all that again.

I know I’m lucky I have so much to be thankful for. I appreciate all I have but I do get so tired of that inner pain/sadness that never leaves me.

Also xyz, with what you said, I believe our H’s never let us get over them all those years ago. They clung to us, never going away. Even now when I think my H has gone for good, he surprises me and pops up again. We have a conversation like we are constantly in touch but we are not. He goes through periods of disappearing now.

It’s still all so strange so how could we have cut them off all those years ago. My H left but never went away. It’s only been probably the last year or so that’s he’s distanced that bit more but then like I said he’ll suddenly appear again and ask me some random question or he’ll remember something from the past!

I never see or hear from my first H and my D is his! She never hears from her real father. She looks on my H as her dad! But I feel my first H, although awful is behaving in a way normal people do and he let me go, divorced me and never bothers with me.

But my MLC H remains in my life in whatever capacity and we are still married after over 7 years! So that still tells me something is very wrong and in no way normal!

I don’t have all the answers and probably never will but I’m still baffled by all this really!

X

Offline AnjaeTopic starter

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Re: A New And Different Growing - Where Will It Lead? III
« Reply #15 on: June 02, 2018, 03:05:40 PM »
Mine has been very quiet but even that’s a change. Any change is movement.

Yes, even quiet is change and movement.

Wonder, need to catch up with your story. Didn't remember your MLCer has made it. Can you share a bit?

Perhaps it would have really been in the past but the idea that his crisis could end, that he might return home, that my family would be intact was what I believed in. That really seemed to be something that was possible.

The crisis does end (for most). We have all seen it on HS and in real life. The problem is, early on here on HS, and for years after, we were always lead to believe the crisis the average crisis was shorter than it really is - it seems now that, what once was considered the average is the exception, the short crisis. A real, deep, serious, years long MLC is not two years. It is not even five, if I am not mistaken the upper limit by then. Five is middle, or less, for the long crisis.

Another thing we didn't used to be familiar with was with the MLCer that remained married for years on end, while leading his/her MLC, but files for divorce on year 5, 7, 9 or more. By year 5, 7, 9 or more the crisis should be over. Not just Replay, the whole crisis. That was what we used to think.

Reality show us otherwise. The articles are great, but they do not reflect those facts.

I smile now when I think of the terms we use, that we understand, "monster", "replay", "running", "affair down", "movement"

So do I.  :)

I still like to see purple icons. But I know a happy ending has more than one end.

I agree that MLCers do not remain "stuck for eternity" but sadly that means that as so many years go by, they develop their own lives......I am not the woman he loved either anymore...so I do not know that there is anything left of us..it sure doesn't seem so.

Yes, it means they will get used to their crisis life and their crisis life will be their new life, even if they remember how things used to be. None of us is the person they loved and they are not the people we loved, even when out of crisis. Of course we still us and they will be themselves again, but a lot has changed.

RCR leaves it clear in the articles, we don't know if we will like and/or love the out of crisis MLCer or if the out of crisis MLCer will like and/or love us.

...it does worry me a bit though, although it is reality, for newer members to see the number of years that some of us have existed in this crazy state...almost impossible to comprehend the years that I have lost.

You are right. On the other hand, hiding reality wouldn't make sense. And some of us still come around but have new partners, Nah, for example. MLCers often don't tend to let go. Your husband and Mitzpah's one keept being around. One does not want to leave with MLC presence, but the MLCer comes and goes, never allowing for the LBS to forget the situation.

Even Mr. J, he has a way of "turning up". Same for Mr. Ready2. It is not like a couple that has divorced and remained friendly. In mine and Ready2's case, lots of stuff still had, or still have, to be sorted. And my MLCer was nastier than nasty until not that long ago.

Wish we all lived close to one another....it would be lovely to be able to encounter life with people who understand why I am not quite the person I should be.

So do I. And yet, what a wonder the internet is. We live 1000, 5000, 20000  kilometers apart, most of us have never seen each other, and we manage to be friends and support each other. Where would we be, and who would help is, if not for the internet?

I was just messsging an old friend in RL and I said I mostly wear a mask to the outside world, to people in RL. No one wants to see me sad or unhappy. So I pretend I’m fine and all is great. But in truth it’s not, despite all my lovely friends and family, my loneliness persists, my inner sadness persists.

I don't wear a mask. There is no inner loneliness that persists and the sadness is gone. I have less good days, but it is because of the peri-menopause and other health issues that, often, do not allow me to do things I would like to. But I use HD mantras "one day at a time" and "this too shall pass" and make sure I don't allow, as much as possible, stress to get to me.

To be fair, I was not happy at all on the months before BD. Mr. J was already up and down monstering, while conductiong his affair with OW1 in the grand tour of Portuguese Hotel's Bedrooms. I am far happier now than by then. And far less lonely. Having someone physically present does not mean we don't fell lonely. A present in body Mr. J, but absent in all other matters, was not good.


Even if I met someone now there isn’t the time to have all that again.

There isn't (well, for me there is). But that does not mean it cannot be good. Think of people who meet in nursing homes and got married very late in life. Length of marriage/relationship does not equal good or happy. It it would, MLCer in long term relationships with OW/OM would all be happy and in great relationships, and people who, by a number of reasons, didn't had a long marriage/relationship would never had a good and happy one.

For me, the big difference is that I was 18 when Mr. J and I got together. I was 37, about to be 38, when he left. Since, I never had another long term relationship and I will be 50 by the end of the years. I had a boyfriend years ago, but it didn't last more than 18 months or so. I don't think it was supposed to. Aside from Mr. J, I don't experience with long term relationships and with none that started in my 30s or 40s.

But my MLC H remains in my life in whatever capacity and we are still married after over 7 years! So that still tells me something is very wrong and in no way normal!

Yes, the MLCer never really lets go. Mr. J is still very worried there may be someone new in my life. Really? It has been over a decade, he is the one who left an wante nothing with me (or better, he wante me and OW) and he worries I may have a boyfriend? That is not normal. I don't worry about OW2 or any other woman he may have.
Sometimes good things fall apart so better things can fall together. (Marilyn Monroe)

Offline xyzcf

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Re: A New And Different Growing - Where Will It Lead? III
« Reply #16 on: June 02, 2018, 03:20:07 PM »
Serenity, as I read this nodding my head in agreement.

Quote
Also xyz, with what you said, I believe our H’s never let us get over them all those years ago. They clung to us, never going away.

Yes, bringing me gifts, remembering and sending greetings for important occasions, going to mass with me when he was in town on business.

Quote
It’s still all so strange so how could we have cut them off all those years ago. My H left but never went away
.

Throwing us crumbs perhaps, making sure the "anchor is still there"

Quote
But I feel my first H, although awful is behaving in a way normal people do and he let me go, divorced me and never bothers with me.

I saw a lawyer this week to change some stuff in my will and she said the same thing. She also told me she thought my husband had a mental health illness.


Quote
But my MLC H remains in my life in whatever capacity and we are still married after over 7 years! So that still tells me something is very wrong and in no way normal!

Almost 9 for us.

Quote
I don’t have all the answers and probably never will but I’m still baffled by all this really!

So am I!
"Now faith is being sure of what we hope for and certain of what we do not see" Hebrews 11:1

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Offline osb

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Re: A New And Different Growing - Where Will It Lead? III
« Reply #17 on: June 03, 2018, 06:09:41 PM »
Wish we all lived close to one another....it would be lovely to be able to encounter life with people who understand why I am not quite the person I should be.

So do I. And yet, what a wonder the internet is. We live 1000, 5000, 20000  kilometers apart, most of us have never seen each other, and we manage to be friends and support each other. Where would we be, and who would help is, if not for the internet?

So very true. If the universe would permit us all to be in the same space for a while, that would be lovely. But then, when I read your thread Anjae, my mind lights up like I'm visiting a friend. For so I am.
"You have a right to action, not to the fruit thereof; shoot your arrow, but do not look to see where it lands."  -Bhagavad Gita

Offline AnjaeTopic starter

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Re: A New And Different Growing - Where Will It Lead? III
« Reply #18 on: June 03, 2018, 06:36:38 PM »
Hello, osb.  :)

But then, when I read your thread Anjae, my mind lights up like I'm visiting a friend. For so I am.

 :) You're as much my friends as real life friends. In some ways, more. Many talks had here, I never had in real life.

The internet is not the first long distance type of friendship. There used to be pen friends. I do have pen friends in real life, we meet on Coursera, have never seen each other, but we exchange letters and postcards.

Many centuries, millenia, even, ago, people already wrote to friends they have never meet. The internet just makes it easier to share and be close.

The parents of a professional acquaintance, meet, mid 20 century, by letter. The dad lived in another European country, fall in love with the Portuguese lady, come over, got married and had several children. They were together for decades, until she died years ago.
Sometimes good things fall apart so better things can fall together. (Marilyn Monroe)

Offline FaithWalker

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Re: A New And Different Growing - Where Will It Lead? III
« Reply #19 on: June 05, 2018, 11:33:05 AM »
Attaching.  I feel there is so much to learn from you long timers.  Thank you for continuing to post, even if it is less about MLC and more about how your life is now, there is still lots to learn from all of you.
M-40
H-43
S-18
D-16
S-13
Friends for 7 years before dating
Married for 14 years
BD 12/14/15 - 2 weeks after 14th anniversary
Divorce final 4/13/16
EA - 9/15-4/16
New GF 12/16
Engaged to her 6/17 (I found out 8/10/17)
Moved to her State 4 States away - 7/13/17
Engagement off 8/20/17
Moved back to our State 8/24/17
Joined POF within the first month back
1 year later no signs of anyone new - workaholic


Link to my journey: 
http://mlcforum.theherosspouse.com/index.php?topic=10203.msg671589#msg671589

"Life isn't about waiting for the storm to pass... it's about learning to dance in the rain."

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"Sometimes -- some things have to break all apart so better things can be built."

Offline Savoir Faire

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Re: A New And Different Growing - Where Will It Lead? III
« Reply #20 on: June 07, 2018, 04:45:51 AM »
The strong belief we have that it is not possible for many of our spouses to actually stay in crisis forever, is what keeps us here I suppose.  There is always hope.

When I saw my xH the other day after two years of NC due to his madness, all the things I 'thought' were happening to him, actually are.  He is a total wreck and not a man who left for greener pastures.

This dis-ease is so different to anything else in our society.  It's such a blessing to have this place to come and talk with people who understand why we hope for resolution of the crisis even if we finally don't wish to reconcile.

After five years, I still hope for him to get through this but it's so hard when I see he's done nothing to get through this.  I suppose they don't until they actually wake up.  Wish I knew the catalyst for that.

I do hope you get some answers one day Anjae, not ever having been told they are sorry for all the damage and hurt is forever difficult.  Peri-menopause can't be helping that :'(
"And when they ask you about me and you find yourself thinking back on all of our memories,
I hope you ache in regret as the truth hits you like a bullet and you find yourself replying: ""She loved me more than anyone else in the entire world and I tried to destroy her."  He failed by the way. 
http://mlcforum.theherosspouse.com/index.php?topic=8412(Denjef's thread)

Offline AnjaeTopic starter

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Re: A New And Different Growing - Where Will It Lead? III
« Reply #21 on: June 07, 2018, 06:23:41 PM »
Hi, FaithWalker.

You're welcome.  :)

The strong belief we have that it is not possible for many of our spouses to actually stay in crisis forever, is what keeps us here I suppose.  There is always hope.

Most of them will come out of crisis. When, no one knows.

What we think it is going on with them, aside from the LBS who still thinks the MLCer is happy, tends to be true.

This dis-ease is so different to anything else in our society.  It's such a blessing to have this place to come and talk with people who understand why we hope for resolution of the crisis even if we finally don't wish to reconcile.

It is so very different, and yet so common. I know more and more people in RL having a MLC. Some of them single people. Of course, I am not going to say a thing to them. No point.

After five years, I still hope for him to get through this but it's so hard when I see he's done nothing to get through this.  I suppose they don't until they actually wake up.  Wish I knew the catalyst for that.

No, they don't until they wake up. Don't think there is a catalyst for that. Everything we think will be the thing, is not.

I do hope you get some answers one day Anjae, not ever having been told they are sorry for all the damage and hurt is forever difficult. 

I don't need answers. I know them. MLC is self-explanatory and I don't think Mr. J would have any answers (I would probably had to explain to him what happned and why). What I need are actions. Mr. J told me he was sorry fo all he has done a few times. Then, carried on doing more damage.  When his actions start to change and keep consistent that will be what matters.

Peri-menopause can't be helping that :'(

The peri-menopause does no help at all.
Sometimes good things fall apart so better things can fall together. (Marilyn Monroe)

Offline AnjaeTopic starter

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Re: A New And Different Growing - Where Will It Lead? III
« Reply #22 on: June 08, 2018, 02:53:20 PM »
A glimpse of MLC (or life crisis, or bumpy midlife transition) from a single person.

There is someone I know, a man, who has spend the last couple years moaning how Facebook how he does not have a girfrends, how his relationships don't make sense, first one was 14 years, second one an years, third one 6 months, and how it should had been the other way round.

He was becominh very, very annoying, with all the poor me stuff. Fast foward. He is now engaged and is going to be married after been dating someone for two weeks. He says that, for him two minutes is enough to know he truly love someone and the person is the one.

Back in 2013 a male friend did the same, speed relationship, moved in with the woman, was going to get married, she was the one.
 They soon broke and the marriage never happened.

Don't know if this other guy will marry, but if he will, it will be a disaster. Will be looking to see how it goes.

As for only needing a couple of minutes to know we love someone, I think it is called infatuation and/or atraction. I can be infatuated pretty fast, and has happened a ton of times since BD, but a) it does not mean I will tell the person; b) it does not mean it is love (it will not last, it just tends to be a nice flavour of the month).

Sometimes good things fall apart so better things can fall together. (Marilyn Monroe)

Offline Savoir Faire

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Re: A New And Different Growing - Where Will It Lead? III
« Reply #23 on: June 11, 2018, 10:00:10 PM »
There are so many MLCers out there!!  It's a wonder there isn't more written about it.

I have a girlfriend who is acting a little irrationally at the moment and she asked if I thought she was having a MLC?  I told her if she was asking, it was probably a transition rather than a MLC as her actions are not crazy enough for a crisis.

She is doing some crazy running but not to another man, just from herself.  Difference is, she's learning from it, not blaming everyone for her troubles.
"And when they ask you about me and you find yourself thinking back on all of our memories,
I hope you ache in regret as the truth hits you like a bullet and you find yourself replying: ""She loved me more than anyone else in the entire world and I tried to destroy her."  He failed by the way. 
http://mlcforum.theherosspouse.com/index.php?topic=8412(Denjef's thread)

Offline AnjaeTopic starter

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Re: A New And Different Growing - Where Will It Lead? III
« Reply #24 on: June 12, 2018, 04:47:59 PM »
There are so many MLCers out there!!  It's a wonder there isn't more written about it.

There is a lot written about MCL. A google search will show tons of stuff. The problem is what many call MLC, and write about, is midlife transition.

Your friends does sound like she is having a little bumpy midlife transitions, or maybe a very mild MLC. Or a MLC for pretty much everyone, but HS members. What the general world tends to call/label MLC is a midlife transition.


This guy is (was) single. At least he hadn't left anyone/a marriage. He is not the only guy I know who did this crazy thing of, all of a sudden, become engaged in a couple of weeks. In 2013, a single friend of mine who is also having a MLC (still in crisis now, but calmer), did the same. After jumping from woman to woman, always thinking each of them was the one, he got a girfriend and announced he would be married by early 2014. The relationship soon end and the marriage never happened.

Both this guys are having mild crisis. The one who was going to get married in early 2014 not only kept his pre-MLC job, finished his Masters, but got a grant to research his study subject in a prestigious European Museum. He is very respected in his field, as is research is unique.

The one who just got engaged is an artist, no lifestyle change that I can see. Just the crazy need of finding a woman. The woman, from at I get to see on Facebook, is a beauty, but, in every photo, is drinking. A party girl with a good job (for some reason, Lisboa and Porto don't seem to be short on women with good jobs that are also party girls. I am not talking of young women, but of women in their 30s to their 60s).

I think the guy who got engaged may be having more of midlife transition, but, who knows.

None of these two guys were running from anyone, since they were single. In fact, and strange it may seem, what they want it to run to someone.

In a way, our MLCers also want to run to someone. They run from us towards OW/OM.

I think it is important to document MLC, or bumpy midlife transitions we see in real life, including single/long divorced/widowed people crisis. As we often say, MLC is not a marital issue.


A little different matter (but not really). Doing the Medical Neuroscience course, one thing was bugging me. Something I recalled from another course, choice. The Professor from Synapses, Neurons and Brains course does not believe we have a choice. From what I can recall, nor does Robert Sapolsky.

We often say MLCers (or alcoholics, or addicts or any other kind) have a choice. I wanted to know more about it, so I find a Neuroeconomics course on Coursera. Neuroeconomics deals with choice.

So far, choice in the Neuroeconomics course is more in line with what I personally think. Choice is dependant of certain conditions/state of certain parts of the brain at any givem moment. If thing Z is altered, or thing W, choice is dependant of those changes. The matter is pretty complex, but, in short, in the messy, altered state a MLCer, or an addict, or a depressed person is that choice is conditioned by those very circunstances.

If MLCers would calm down, rather than run, they would had a much better chance of making good choices. However, the process that come with the crisis, especially the ones presents at Replay, don't seem to allow for it.

More food for thought.

Sometimes good things fall apart so better things can fall together. (Marilyn Monroe)

Offline RedStar

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Re: A New And Different Growing - Where Will It Lead? III
« Reply #25 on: June 12, 2018, 04:59:16 PM »
So far, choice in the Neuroeconomics course is more in line with what I personally think. Choice is dependant of certain conditions/state of certain parts of the brain at any givem moment. If thing Z is altered, or thing W, choice is dependant of those changes. The matter is pretty complex, but, in short, in the messy, altered state a MLCer, or an addict, or a depressed person is that choice is conditioned by those very circunstances.

If MLCers would calm down, rather than run, they would had a much better chance of making good choices. However, the process that come with the crisis, especially the ones presents at Replay, don't seem to allow for it.

Anjae, I haven't taken any courses on neuro subjects lately, but I think I might think of this similarly? I have thought of MLC as a case of the mind regressing to its pre-25-year-old state. That's the age I've heard as the point before which one's brain has not fully developed into its adult version.

So, I feel like our MLCers have gone back to teenage abilities to judge and make choices. The depression and addiction may be linked to the chemical processes that go on in them to deaden the higher-level judgment functions and emotional maturity--so they are only capable of sex and addictive teenage puppy love, not the real love they had with their spouse; that has gone into hiding. It's just so odd.
« Last Edit: June 12, 2018, 05:02:07 PM by RedStar »

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Re: A New And Different Growing - Where Will It Lead? III
« Reply #26 on: June 12, 2018, 06:25:11 PM »
Hi Red Star.

I have thought of MLC as a case of the mind regressing to its pre-25-year-old state. That's the age I've heard as the point before which one's brain has not fully developed into its adult version.

Yes, it is thought that the brain is only fully formed at 25. However, at 25 Mr. J was nothing like his MCL self. His 17 years old self, when we start dating, was nothing like is MLC self (if he was, I would have never dated him). He was a very capable young man. I have no idea from where has the MLC version come from.

Also, many people, especially in the past, had been married for years at 25, had children, lead very non-MLC lives. The pre-25 years old brain alone (or has a whole) cannot be the (only?) explanation. Or, at least, it cannot for some, since it would depend how a person was before.

The depression and addiction may be linked to the chemical processes that go on in them to deaden the higher-level judgment functions and emotional maturity--

They may. But I think it is more than a chemical processes. There are electrical and mechanical processes as well that get affected/changed. The electical part of the brain plays a big role in everything brain connected. After all, neurons and their firing is an electrical process. If neurons don't fire, the brain will not work as it should (or at all). Neurons also exist in the spinal cord and gastrointestinal tract. Therefore, the mess is far bigger than just chemical and just the brain itself, since it spreads to the whole of the nervous system, etc. (and not just because of neurons).

so they are only capable of sex and addictive teenage puppy love, not the real love they had with their spouse; that has gone into hiding. It's just so odd.

With Mr. J, and other real life MLCers I know, it is more the teenage puppy love than sex. They are after the super romantic, super saccharine stuff. A few just want a different woman/man every night/weekend/week/month, but most what to find their "soul mate". Or think they have found it in OW/OM.

In the Neuroeconomics course, so far, the insula of the dorsolateral prefrontal cortex (or insula or dlPFC) had been talked as pertaining to choice decision. For example, its state may dictate if a person will, or will not, take an unfair financial offer. Transcranial magnetic stimulation of the dorsolateral prefrontal cortex will make the possibilities of accepting an unfair financial offer higher.

Other things, not from this course, but that have, over time, been talked about here on HS, mostly, in our Neuroscience threads. The higher the adrenaline, the riskier/crazier the chances taken. Think about Wall Street. Brokers will bet tons and tons of money, adrenaline running very high. Make brokers make more money early on, but female ones, a little more averse to risk, end up making more in the long run. The excessive adrenaline tends to blind male brokers to a truly risky play, resulting in a gigantic money loss.

The high of adrenaline is addictive. It also causes euphoria and a type of fog, making people think they are invincible.

Another example could be chasing the dragon. At first, the high is fantastic. Then, when the effect starts to go away, everything turns into a mess, the person panics, the dream world is gone (or starting to disappear), you need more of the drug to obtain the same effect = you're addicted = vicous circle. 

MLCers do that to raise (have a high level of) whatever it is they need to raise in order not to fell rock bottom. More and more is needed to obtain the same effect. Until the day they crash.

I can use myself as an example. After BD, in my going out and about days drinking more than I should, was I making a choice or was I being driven by the process that resulted from the existing emotions and conditions? The second, I think. Once I start to calm down (because I became exhausted and had aches all over my body), the need for the going out and about drinking more than I should start to go away.

At the time, I didn't even knew that what I was doing was both trying to mute the pain and getting some high because of the situational depression. I was just doing it, no thought involved.

But I do recall that, at a point in 2008, May or June, I think, I decided I would start to cut down and, in time, it would end. Don't exactly recall why I decided it, but I know I did. However, it didn't all end all of a sudden. Also, for me, I was lucky in one way, grandmother start to need help by August 2008, and I started to look after her until she died December 2016. At first, she didn't need as much help/taking care of, so I could still go out and be a little silly, then it become harder and harder and she needed to be cared for fully.

Unlike Robert Sapolsky I don't have certainties about several things, and, the more I learn about the brain and everything connected to it, the less am certain about some things. On the other hand, I becoem more certain of a few, like MLC not being a normal state of mind.

Sapolsky has a very interesting book about stress, Why Zebras Don't Get Ulcers. The reson being Zebras only live in the present. They don't mull over the past nor worry about the future. They have no emotional stress (one of the things that affects LBS and MLCers). Zebras have physical stress, for example, when they have to run from a predator, but that is it.

They will either escape, and no longer think about it or fear tomorrow it may happen again, or die/get eaten (there is a third option, bit I don't remember seeing it in the book, the Zebra is injuried and doesn't get eaten/dies right away. I think that would case some stress, but, again, the only options would be, the Zebra makes it and will no longer think about it, or dies.) 

Kikki, where are you? Would like to know your views on the choice matter.
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Offline RedStar

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Re: A New And Different Growing - Where Will It Lead? III
« Reply #27 on: June 12, 2018, 06:50:54 PM »
Hi Red Star.

I have thought of MLC as a case of the mind regressing to its pre-25-year-old state. That's the age I've heard as the point before which one's brain has not fully developed into its adult version.

Yes, it is thought that the brain is only fully formed at 25. However, at 25 Mr. J was nothing like his MCL self. His 17 years old self, when we start dating, was nothing like is MLC self (if he was, I would have never dated him). He was a very capable young man. I have no idea from where has the MLC version come from.

Also, many people, especially in the past, had been married for years at 25, had children, lead very non-MLC lives. The pre-25 years old brain alone (or has a whole) cannot be the (only?) explanation. Or, at least, it cannot for some, since it would depend how a person was before.

I'm sure it's different for everyone. I didn't know my MLCer at 17, but at 25, yes. And at 25, he was more mature in many ways than he's being now. I couldn't say it depended on how a person was before, because these aren't real teens. They are a blend of their current experiences (mine's over 40 now), including the usually long-term marriage experience, but with the higher judgment functions seemingly cut back. Plus they regress to childhood stages they haven't resolved.

My main point is that the mature brain functions seem to be canceled out for a while and they go to somewhere before the adult brain age of 25 and just can't access the maturity that they previously could.

The depression and addiction may be linked to the chemical processes that go on in them to deaden the higher-level judgment functions and emotional maturity--

Quote
They may. But I think it is more than a chemical processes.

Sure. I used that as a shorthand because those directly affect a lot of the mental state.

so they are only capable of sex and addictive teenage puppy love, not the real love they had with their spouse; that has gone into hiding. It's just so odd.

Quote
With Mr. J, and other real life MLCers I know, it is more the teenage puppy love than sex. They are after the super romantic, super saccharine stuff. A few just want a different woman/man every night/weekend/week/month, but most what to find their "soul mate". Or think they have found it in OW/OM.

Yes, sure. I'm referring to the layers of the brain where they can do the emotions of the lizard (cerebellum/sex) and the puppy (limbic/puppy love) but the human (neocortex/real love) is less accessible to them. Just like where teenagers are.

Quote
The high of adrenaline is addictive. It also causes euphoria and a type of fog, making people think they are invincible.

Another example could be chasing the dragon. At first, the high is fantastic. Then, when the effect starts to go away, everything turns into a mess, the person panics, the dream world is gone (or starting to disappear), you need more of the drug to obtain the same effect = you're addicted = vicous circle. 

MLCers do that to raise (have a high level of) whatever it is they need to raise in order not to fell rock bottom. More and more is needed to obtain the same effect. Until the day they crash.

Yes, well, I see it as the search for a dopamine high after (or while) living in a sort of anhedonic state.

Quote
Sapolsky has a very interesting book about stress, Why Zebras Don't Get Ulcers. The reson being Zebras only live in the present. They don't mull over the past nor worry about the future. They have no emotional stress (one of the things that affects LBS and MLCers). Zebras have physical stress, for example, when they have to run from a predator, but that is it.

They will either escape, and no longer think about it or fear tomorrow it may happen again, or die/get eaten (there is a third option, bit I don't remember seeing it in the book, the Zebra is injuried and doesn't get eaten/dies right away. I think that would case some stress, but, again, the only options would be, the Zebra makes it and will no longer think about it, or dies.) 

Oh right...thanks for the reminder. I was listening to this one recently but got so many other options that I left off. Must finish it.
« Last Edit: June 12, 2018, 06:53:28 PM by RedStar »

Offline AnjaeTopic starter

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Re: A New And Different Growing - Where Will It Lead? III
« Reply #28 on: June 12, 2018, 07:09:37 PM »
I couldn't say it depended on how a person was before, because these aren't real teens. They are a blend of their current experiences (mine's over 40 now), including the usually long-term marriage experience, but with the higher judgment functions seemingly cut back. Plus they regress to childhood stages they haven't resolved.

I think you're right. They aren't real teens, so it may have nothing to do how they were before.

Mine is also over 40, 48 (and has been at it since 36, nearly 37).

Some how, yes, the higher judgment fuctions seem to be affected. They are capable of some mature decisions/behaviours. Some do very well in business or academically, but they do all seem to have a problem with certain things. If I were to guess, I would say Mr. J, when in crazy MLC self, is 5 years old. I know he had tantrums at 5 years old and not very ones.

Not so sure about the childhood age/issues. That is one of HS's theories, but I am not certain that is the case. Nor that a MLCer is capable of solving any issue while in Replay. Maybe and the person does not even notices/knows.

Yes, sure. I'm referring to the layers of the brain where they can do the emotions of the lizard (cerebellum/sex) and the puppy (limbic/puppy love) but the human (neocortex/real love) is less accessible to them. Just like where teenagers are.

Maybe the excess of some chemicals, and lack (lower) of others, and possible problems in brain parts connections is the reason for less access to neocortex/real love?

Yes, well, I see it as the search for a dopamine high after (or while) living in a sort of anhedonic state.

Makes sense.

Oh right...thanks for the reminder. I was listening to this one recently but got so many other options that I left off. Must finish it.

You're welcome. The book is quite cool.  :)
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Offline Savoir Faire

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Re: A New And Different Growing - Where Will It Lead? III
« Reply #29 on: June 12, 2018, 08:57:29 PM »
My MLCer has been mostly in monster since the beginning and so is about 17 years old much of the time. He had times at the very beginning - maybe three months post BD where he had tantrums and was like a very small child.  After five years he is still 17 years old.  It must be exhausting being an angry 17 year old  all the time.

The book sounds great.  I would like a week of being a zebra, especially when the monkey brain clicks in too much.
"And when they ask you about me and you find yourself thinking back on all of our memories,
I hope you ache in regret as the truth hits you like a bullet and you find yourself replying: ""She loved me more than anyone else in the entire world and I tried to destroy her."  He failed by the way. 
http://mlcforum.theherosspouse.com/index.php?topic=8412(Denjef's thread)

Offline GonerinGhana

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Re: A New And Different Growing - Where Will It Lead? III
« Reply #30 on: June 12, 2018, 09:17:42 PM »
HB has a point buried in one of her articles about how when they return to their teenage years or childhood during the MLC, they act the opposite of they way they did the first time around. My H went through a period of his MLC where he was mocking us all the time. I felt like I was 18 again in the dining hall in the dorm in college actually, where everyone was making fun of one another.

The strange thing is every time we fought during our marriage, my H would always say, "Don't mock me, don't mock me." I always thought he misunderstood the meaning of the word, because I WAS NEVER mocking him and would tell him this. However, I now wonder if as a teenager his father used to mock HIM and this made him paranoid throughout our marriage, and in MLC he decided to turn the tables by becoming the one who did the mocking.

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Re: A New And Different Growing - Where Will It Lead? III
« Reply #31 on: June 13, 2018, 04:32:14 AM »
Quote
A little different matter (but not really). Doing the Medical Neuroscience course, one thing was bugging me. Something I recalled from another course, choice. The Professor from Synapses, Neurons and Brains course does not believe we have a choice. From what I can recall, nor does Robert Sapolsky.

We often say MLCers (or alcoholics, or addicts or any other kind) have a choice. I wanted to know more about it, so I find a Neuroeconomics course on Coursera. Neuroeconomics deals with choice.

So far, choice in the Neuroeconomics course is more in line with what I personally think. Choice is dependant of certain conditions/state of certain parts of the brain at any givem moment. If thing Z is altered, or thing W, choice is dependant of those changes. The matter is pretty complex, but, in short, in the messy, altered state a MLCer, or an addict, or a depressed person is that choice is conditioned by those very circunstances.

If MLCers would calm down, rather than run, they would had a much better chance of making good choices. However, the process that come with the crisis, especially the ones presents at Replay, don't seem to allow for it.

Hi Anjae
Just catching up here.
Before MLC hit us like a tonne of bricks, I would have said that we all have control over the choices that we make.

Now, having witnessed what I have witnessed, and experienced the chilling personality/behaviour changes, I no longer agree with my earlier assumptions.

I did a philosophy course some years ago, when I was desperately looking for answers, on the subject of 'Is free will an illusion?'
Because it was a philosophy course, it was all about both sides of the argument. 
Neuroscience was touched on to explain the reasons that we may not indeed have free will. That brain function gives rise to thoughts/behaviours and actions that are not necessarily able to be controlled by the individual at any given time.

I believe that MLC depression (? triggered by a combination of stress and hormonal changes) shuts down the blood flow to the pre frontal cortex (my GP SIL explained this to me years ago - proven on brain scans), forcing the MLCers to function is less evolved parts of their brain.  As the MLC and depression progresses, it appears to regress even further to the fight or flight/lizard/toddler brain, which is all about me, want, now, mine, mine, mine. 
Functioning in this area of the brain, it appears that choices are few and far between, but rather more like survival and instinct rather than much else.

So yes, I came to believe that free will is a bit of an illusion, if you have a depressed/inflamed/disordered brain.

Offline AnjaeTopic starter

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Re: A New And Different Growing - Where Will It Lead? III
« Reply #32 on: June 13, 2018, 06:57:08 PM »
Savy,

At least your husband is 17. Mr. J is 5 years old. Will take him a while to be 17... not that I would mind if he was like is real 17 years old. Much better than the MLC version.

I think you like the book.

HB has a point buried in one of her articles about how when they return to their teenage years or childhood during the MLC, they act the opposite of they way they did the first time around.

Interesting, GG.

I've read HB's articles several times, but that detail had escaped me.

If Mr. J is being a teenager now, it sure is the oppposite version of his real teenage self.

Hi, Kikki. Thanks for coming around.

Before MLC hit us like a tonne of bricks, I would have said that we all have control over the choices that we make.

So would I. I didn't even get why addicted people couldn't just leave drugs (or whatever they were addicted to). To me it was a matter if they want to, they can. Part true, but not the whole truth.

We have Spinoza in the Nueroeconomics Course. He said that people though they had free will because they did not understand their actions.

I believe that MLC depression (? triggered by a combination of stress and hormonal changes) shuts down the blood flow to the pre frontal cortex (my GP SIL explained this to me years ago - proven on brain scans), forcing the MLCers to function is less evolved parts of their brain.  As the MLC and depression progresses, it appears to regress even further to the fight or flight/lizard/toddler brain, which is all about me, want, now, mine, mine, mine. 

Makes sense. But I think there may be more than one thing/parts at play. Or maybe the main problem affects everything else.

Functioning in this area of the brain, it appears that choices are few and far between, but rather more like survival and instinct rather than much else.

Yes, that is what MLCer choices feel like. And that is more or less what I recall from my crisis time and my choices/decisions. Some weren't very smart.

I tend to agree with you, a depressed/inflamed/disordered brain has no free will. Or only to a degree. An Alzeimer's patient brain has no free will, the actions of said brain, and its effects on the person, come from the damages cause by the illness. Nothing the person cando about it.

Not the same as addiction or MLC, but it is an example of a damaged brain.

This week we learned that decision making is also related to firing rate (neurons firing). There seems to be a lot of things involved in chouce and decision making.

One thing is sure, we LBS are very curious creatures. Just look of the things we get out brains to.  :)
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Offline Savoir Faire

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Re: A New And Different Growing - Where Will It Lead? III
« Reply #33 on: June 13, 2018, 08:35:40 PM »
In relation to the MLCer doing his/her teenage years opposite to what they did the first teenage time, I didn't know mine when he was a teenager, but he was about 23 before he had his first sexual experience, so obviously although he would have loved to have a girlfriend during his teenage years, his totally controlling mother would have put a stop to that if it had even been a reality.  The parents certainly do have a huge impact on the crisis later in life.  This teenage time around, H is making sure he gets as many women as he can - the opposite to what he did the first time around.

H's parents told him what to do at every step and they lived in the country, so he had to tow the line, he had no alternative.
"And when they ask you about me and you find yourself thinking back on all of our memories,
I hope you ache in regret as the truth hits you like a bullet and you find yourself replying: ""She loved me more than anyone else in the entire world and I tried to destroy her."  He failed by the way. 
http://mlcforum.theherosspouse.com/index.php?topic=8412(Denjef's thread)

Offline AnjaeTopic starter

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Re: A New And Different Growing - Where Will It Lead? III
« Reply #34 on: June 13, 2018, 10:22:11 PM »
When it comes to women, Mr. J is not doing the opossite of what de did as a teenager.

As a DJ, he could have as many women as he wanted. Early on he told me women were always trying to get him, but he had no interest in one night stands or any sort of friends with benefits thing. He likes serious, lasting relationships, and in MLC that has not changed.

The relationship with OW1 didn't last long in the open because she left him.

Where he is being being the opposite is the rebelllion. He was not a rebellious teenager. And with the drinking. And clubbing. No one stopped him from clubbing in his teens, he just wasn't into it.

I guess, at least to an extent, parents have a big influence in a person MLC later in life. I can't see much, if any, influence from my parents in mine.

Sometimes good things fall apart so better things can fall together. (Marilyn Monroe)

Offline Trustandlove

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Re: A New And Different Growing - Where Will It Lead? III
« Reply #35 on: June 13, 2018, 11:54:21 PM »
All interesting, and probably all true, each bit in its own way.

Mine didn't feel popular as a teenager, so in MLC has been going for many women.  He's now living the kind of life that we lived pre-children with an OW who's never had any (except that he doesn't appear to be working); I could take that to mean that he just didn't want family life.  He certainly turns on monster whenever his responsibility as a father is mentioned, the latest was saying that they are over 18 so it's done now, never mind that he hadn't been there for many years prior to that. 

But on further reflection I think it's all just part of it; mine has "started over" so many times I've practically lost count.  In my case I think shame has an awful lot to do with it.  He has said that he didn't feel good enough, however he blames it on me rather than facing whatever is in him.  And the latest OW just offered a convenient "out", he had come close to facing things and then found a way to not have to. 

Yes, it's a choice to a degree, to the extent that we all make choices based on what is going on in our brains at the time, and I do think that the part of him that could face everything is seriously shut down, even coming close I think makes his lizard brain shut down and run.  And I don't say lizard brain as a derogatory term, I mean that part that reacts automatically, not the part that reasons. 

I've seen him come close to facing things a few times; earlier on I realise that when it did happen, I didn't recognise it and didn't know how to respond; however even when I had learned in the end it didn't "do the trick"; he just didn't want to go there.  He has even said as much, saying "I don't want to", when the discussion ever did get to the point of us saying that it was possible. 

I do believe that along the way the brain has been affected by the things he's done, addictions have taken hold, probably other things.  I did think at the outset that he had been brainwashed because of an alternative therapist he had been seeing, it may well be that there was a lasting effect. 

And what others describe as having happened to their MLCers is probably also true; just because it hasn't affected each and every MLCer in the same way doesn't mean that those who really have changed so much haven't experienced brain change. 

Offline AnjaeTopic starter

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Re: A New And Different Growing - Where Will It Lead? III
« Reply #36 on: June 14, 2018, 06:41:53 PM »
Yes, it's a choice to a degree, to the extent that we all make choices based on what is going on in our brains at the time, and I do think that the part of him that could face everything is seriously shut down, even coming close I think makes his lizard brain shut down and run.  And I don't say lizard brain as a derogatory term, I mean that part that reacts automatically, not the part that reasons. 

Their brains are functioning, to a degreee (not fully, since they can, or some can, do complex rational things, like Masters or PhDs, that require more than the lizard brain. The reason may be they don't see those things as threats). For pretty much everything else, their primeval/survival ways of the brain are in charge.

I've seen him come close to facing things a few times; earlier on I realise that when it did happen, I didn't recognise it and didn't know how to respond; however even when I had learned in the end it didn't "do the trick"; he just didn't want to go there.  He has even said as much, saying "I don't want to", when the discussion ever did get to the point of us saying that it was possible. 

It is interesting, yet sad, your husabnd has come so close. Clearly, he still wasn't ready. I have also heard a sort of "I don't want to" from Mr. J. His is "I can't stop doing it. If I will, I will have to think/deal with all I have done and I cannot."

In time, I think they both will be able to deal with their issues. MLC goes ahead, but it also goes sideways, backwards and in circles.

I did think at the outset that he had been brainwashed because of an alternative therapist he had been seeing, it may well be that there was a lasting effect. 

Some therapist only do more harm than good.

And what others describe as having happened to their MLCers is probably also true; just because it hasn't affected each and every MLCer in the same way doesn't mean that those who really have changed so much haven't experienced brain change.

They all experience brain change. In some the change is bigger/deeper/more complex. But is does not mean they cannot change back. Some may be able to, but we don't know who they will be. 

The World Cup is here. Portugal plays with Spain today (15). Planning to either see half the game with aunt and the other half with some of my siblings, mum and older nephew, or the whole game with siblings, mum and older nephew. Mum lives nearby, enough time go get to her house during halftime.

Sping finally showed up (now thatit is almost summer) and I even got beer to go along with dinner. If we don't manage to win the Cup, I'll go with Germany for the win. Like their team.
Sometimes good things fall apart so better things can fall together. (Marilyn Monroe)

Offline AnjaeTopic starter

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Re: A New And Different Growing - Where Will It Lead? III
« Reply #37 on: June 20, 2018, 09:21:30 PM »
Briging this over from Savy's thread. I want to explore more the idea that, maybe, MLCer like Mr. J don't crash because they truly haven't meet the abyss. Not on a life or death matter anyway.

Also because it seems that lots of men that didn't use to cheat when young, end uo cheating. Which doesn't make it easy to find a new partner. I do know some of them did it during their own MLC. And that there are no perfect people.

----

Not certain it is society that is bad or life that just happened. Some of these guys who end up cheating were like Mr. J. Cheating was not their thing, and they didn't do it when they were young.

In my case, they are no lying, they tend to be straightfoward and say what has happened at a point in their lives. I guess we can say they are being honest. Maybe we just though cheating was less common than it is? And it is not just men, women cheat a lot to.

Or maybe we didn't knew enough about life?
 
I had no need of teaching Mr. J about feminism. He knew about it. He was also a quite, nice, caring, king, generous, sensitive artistic man that found cheating horrible. Until MLC hit and, well, he is not different than other MLCers. Or he is, since he is one of those that become physically violent. Just like Savy's husband also did.

I have no idea where the man I start dating at 18 (he was 17) is. I know what happened to him, MLC. But, the whole thing has been going on for too long, almost 12 years since he left. Still in Replay. Maybe not as deep as before, but still there. Some of the anger seems to have diminished, but not much more is happening. Not anything visible, at least.

The other day I had a strange thought, maybe the problem is that many MLCers really don't get that deep into darkness/down in the abyssis. That is, they remain functional, and some, like Mr. J, even very sucessful. Therefore, since they really aren't close to the abyss, they manage to carry on and on and on.

Yes, women cheat too, but I do think that society encourages men to avoid real intimacy, vulnerability, and trust with their partners and take whatever they want outside of the R.

Maybe. But that didn't used to be the case when we were young in the world we moved in (arts & culture). Cheating wasn't seen as a good thing, being vulnerable comes with being an artist, etc. and severel of those men were, in fact, when young, very shy when it comes to women.

It wasn't society that encouraged Mr. J to look outside of the relationship. It was him that contacted OW1 and then, yes, she start with the "oh, I have broke all my values for you and your love" thing. He wasn't sure about the affair, she keep puching, for some reason, he dediced to keep breaking his values and leave. And then, when he left and he and OW1 become public, it were OW1 female friends that encouraged it. The men tried to make Mr. J see it was a mistake.

I cannot complain of any male friends or acquaintances, none of them encouraged it.

Also, straight men cheat with women. Women cannot claim a moral high ground since it is women having affairs with straight men. If no woman was willing to, there would be no affairs for straight men.

Don't get me wrong, it is 100% Mr. J's responsability. He was the married one, but OW1 (and OW2) are women. And feminists. And defenders of women's rights.

There is darkness in Mr. J's crisis. It exists in every MLC. But real abysiss? The sort you either have to come out of it or die? No, he never meet it. He has been at his Replay life for over a decade and still manages to go on. 

He is also a DJ. Aside from his weekly sets, a few times a year he spins records for tens of thousands of people at a time. He is adored, idolized even. There is no shortage of support for his dj and MLC life (no the people he spins records to don't have a clue about his personal past/history.

Sometimes good things fall apart so better things can fall together. (Marilyn Monroe)

Offline Savoir Faire

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Re: A New And Different Growing - Where Will It Lead? III
« Reply #38 on: June 20, 2018, 10:28:47 PM »
A lot of MLCers are also 'high flyers'.  Mine is a well paid IT executive and the State Manager of his company.  How he keeps his job, I don't know.  As I said on my thread, he has taken NINE months off work over the past 2.5 years - that's a lot for any man but a MLCer needs this.  Wish he would use the time to do some proper thinking and not just the running type of monkey braining.

So they are adored at work and think they are not adored at home?

Min is SO adored at work he even sleeps with the women there ::) :o ;) ;D
"And when they ask you about me and you find yourself thinking back on all of our memories,
I hope you ache in regret as the truth hits you like a bullet and you find yourself replying: ""She loved me more than anyone else in the entire world and I tried to destroy her."  He failed by the way. 
http://mlcforum.theherosspouse.com/index.php?topic=8412(Denjef's thread)

Offline AnjaeTopic starter

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Re: A New And Different Growing - Where Will It Lead? III
« Reply #39 on: June 20, 2018, 11:10:04 PM »
A lot of MLCers are also 'high flyers'.  Mine is a well paid IT executive and the State Manager of his company.  How he keeps his job, I don't know. 

They are. They aren't all out of a job or not making money.

I'll reply here to the last post on your thread, Savy.

A bore would describe Mr. J for most of his crisis. Aside from music, that he may be able to talk about, he is a bore. A bore is everything Mr. J wasn't.

Mr. J doesn't even take a sick day when he is really ill. He is the man who goes djing with a serious flu and burning in fever. He refuses to be home when he is sick. It is just work, work, work.

I did some things around the house, but Mr. J always helped. e used to love to vacuum clean. And, as a general rules, each of us would iron its own clothes.

I cooked because I worked form home and he had a 9 to 5 job, but we would often eat out or order in.

OW1 didn't cook, but they didn't live together. OW2 cooks, and, at times, so does Mr. J. Mostly it is him that takes care of their flat (OW2 is often away for work). I suspect by now they have a cleaner. Mr. J's house is tidy, and much bigger and fancier than ours.

His life really isn't much different that it used to be. He doesn't have a OW that is visible bad, crazy or has addictions. She happens to be OW, but she is a regular professional very well paid woman. That may be a factor that contributes for their decade long relationship. 10 years is not a fling. 10 years is half the time we spend together.

Everything in his MLC seems to be contributing for him to stay in crisis.

Yes, OW2 is controlling, got him the lawyers, etc., but his life is not that different. The big difference it that now he works nights and weekends. And never stops working, aside from a few holidays days.

He has everything going for him. However, there is no shortage of people, including famous ones, that have everything going for them and hit rock bottom, or depression takes the best of them.

I tend to think about musicians, for example, rock stars, since Mr. J is a DJ. Or really famous DJs. Fame, money, having it all, doesn't stop them from getting to bottom. But that may be because they go far into excess than Mr. J.

Mr. J seems to have found a balance that allows him to keep leading that crazy life, and remain as far away as become aware of what he has done and looking inside as possible.

So they are adored at work and think they are not adored at home?

With a DJ, or a musician, it is more than being adored at work. Mr. J has a steady MLC job, some place that sells DJ gear. But is the DJing that brings the adoration. It is impossible for a single person to provide the level of adoration a crowd provides. Smart DJs/musicians learn to live with it, like their fans - without them they would be nothing, but do not expect to find home that type of adoration. Home is a place of peace. Of course many, many musicians have fall into the adoration trap (usually because they were young, fame and money come, and so did women (or men, if they were gay - female musicians/DJs don't seem to get guys/girls like the men do). Drugs and alcohol also come, hence the fall into the abyss. Lucky ones managed to got clean/sober and turned into family men or women. Unlucky ones end up dead.

But that is the thing, Mr. J does not go far enough. He does not do drugs. When he drank (if he really stopped), he drank a bit, but not the type that would wake up and start drinking. And there are no women, just OW. I have said many types I would prefer if he was sleeping around. Then, it would be obvious he was out of his mind. With a OW that has been around for ten years, the whole thing looks normal.

Yet, since he is in MLC, the fame, money, fans, do not fill the void inside. They never do, anyway.

I would had prefer that he had really wet totally into excess. I think that would had make him understand he was going to far. This tame (for nightlife standards) life of his doesn't help him to reach bottom.

A openly crazy OW may also had been of help.

Min is SO adored at work he even sleeps with the women there ::) :o ;) ;D

 ;D ;D ;D
That would be the last thing Mr. J wants. He does not want a woman that works with him. Female DJs or musicians are something he has no interest in. They are competition and he needs to shine. His OW cannot have anything to do with music, art or culture.

Mr. J's life is too good and too comfortable and provides too much money. He may now find it difficult to trade it for a less flashy life.

No idea how he doesn't burnout. He suffered from burnout twice at a much younger age and for far less. Yet, he has managed to carry on with the crazyness for over a decade. Go figure.
Sometimes good things fall apart so better things can fall together. (Marilyn Monroe)

Offline Savoir Faire

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Re: A New And Different Growing - Where Will It Lead? III
« Reply #40 on: June 21, 2018, 05:36:20 AM »
Maybe his job in DJing keeps him on a replay high enough for him not to want to end it.  Most MlCers highs come from spasmodic attempts at happiness - ow or adrenaline physical activity highs and not adoration per se.  The ow may adore him  and tell him he is wonderful, but this eventually wears off as it does in other relationships but the adoration of DJing never gets old - hence the staying in replay?

It would be good for you to get the chance to sit with him and ask questions, it would ease your mind about where he is at and answer many of the questions you've had for years.  If we don't see them at all for too long, it must make them scared to approach us when they do start to see the light. Some form of contact would be best if we are standing.

Some come out of crisis and return but after a long time they are too distant and really can't remember their old lives.  Seeing us reminds them and although we annoy them, they at least get a dose of us as family again.
"And when they ask you about me and you find yourself thinking back on all of our memories,
I hope you ache in regret as the truth hits you like a bullet and you find yourself replying: ""She loved me more than anyone else in the entire world and I tried to destroy her."  He failed by the way. 
http://mlcforum.theherosspouse.com/index.php?topic=8412(Denjef's thread)

Offline AnjaeTopic starter

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Re: A New And Different Growing - Where Will It Lead? III
« Reply #41 on: June 21, 2018, 04:04:59 PM »
Maybe his job in DJing keeps him on a replay high enough for him not to want to end it.  Most MlCers highs come from spasmodic attempts at happiness - ow or adrenaline physical activity highs and not adoration per se.  The ow may adore him  and tell him he is wonderful, but this eventually wears off as it does in other relationships but the adoration of DJing never gets old - hence the staying in replay?

Indeed. DJing is the only thing that keeps him on his MLC high. OW2 has long no being able of providing a high. It is a 10 years relationship. The high of infatuation is long gone. I will provide more of an high (because it will be a new thing) that she currently does.

The oldest of my brothers thinks the same, Mr. J needs djing to allow the depression not to fully catch up with him.

His new record label may also be a way of keeping the high, but it does not provide DJ high. So, again, indeed, DJing keeps him in Replay. And, somehow, he realise it, even if, of course, he does not know he is in Replay. He tried to cut djing a few times since 2014, but he always ends up going back and take new, bigger DJ challenges.

It would be good for you to get the chance to sit with him and ask questions, it would ease your mind about where he is at and answer many of the questions you've had for years.  If we don't see them at all for too long, it must make them scared to approach us when they do start to see the light. Some form of contact would be best if we are standing.

Not really. I mean, I don't want to sit with him and know where he is or ask any questions. I don't have any questions to ask. Over the years, they have all been answered by knowing about MLC.

I think he lost the scare a bit after seeing me in January. He contacted me by e-mail pretty fast afterwards and sent my journals by mail.

I am not standing. I never was.

When Mr. J's returns, because he will, I am far more of a problem than he will be. I am the one who does not want to deal with a broken man and what reconnection takes. I want a new, free of MLC issues, relationship. Not to try to have a new one with a man that is still in MLC.

Some come out of crisis and return but after a long time they are too distant and really can't remember their old lives.  Seeing us reminds them and although we annoy them, they at least get a dose of us as family again.

He does remember his former life. He mentioned me and the former joint project on his recent radio interview. He also mentioned moving to the capital. The first time he used "when I moved here", from then on he used "when we moved here". There is only one person he moved with, me.

He annoys me more than I annoy him. If it was up to him, we would had always keep in contact. I tend to find his contact intrusive. Or tended. I took his last e-mail and sending my journals well. But I cannot see myself having converstions with him, or receiving daily e-mails from him, let alone texts.

The advantage of an out of crisis Mr. J will be to sort legalities and money. As with monster it is impossible to sort anything. But, even that, I would rather have the lawyers doing it.

Not sure how things will play out when he will start to want to be closer. He has made tiny attemps every year, by e-mail. But it is just that. Also, he was physically violent and was very, very nasty with his divorce court cases. Not to mention the money (the lack of).

I don't feel comfortable giving time to such a person. And I also don't feel safe around him if alone. I don't even feel safe if, in an e-mail, he uses a harsher tone (he did last year and told him I didn't feel good and safe and why).

It is going to be pretty complicated and I am not sure if it is worthy to give myself anxiety and stress again. I have managed to get to a peaceful point. Going back to strife does not seem smart. My health and wellbeing are more important than a new relationship with Mr. J.

I would be open to a professional relationship, providing no drama is involved, but I think that is it.

But, one day at a time. We are nowehere near that.
Sometimes good things fall apart so better things can fall together. (Marilyn Monroe)

Offline AnjaeTopic starter

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Re: A New And Different Growing - Where Will It Lead? III
« Reply #42 on: June 22, 2018, 06:51:39 PM »
Yesterday, after I read Savys post, it took me some two hours or more to reply.

Mostly because of the below part. Also, I didn't had a very good night. Something on Savy's post brought out peculiar things.

It would be good for you to get the chance to sit with him and ask questions, it would ease your mind about where he is at and answer many of the questions you've had for years.  If we don't see them at all for too long, it must make them scared to approach us when they do start to see the light. Some form of contact would be best if we are standing.

My reply was probably too harsh. Also, and this has happened before, why do I refuse to even think of seat with Mr. J? It is true he was physically violent and cleaned the bank accounts after BD. But we keep close, and even went out together for concerts while I remained in the capital. He would also come around the flat.

He was violent again when I told him I was leaving. But, afterwards I left and have been away since. He was, probably, far more of a danger by then than he would be now. By then, I wasn't scared of him and didn't found him unsafe (I knew something mental health related had happened, at the time I didn't knew they were psychotic episoded).

Now... it is not exactly being scared, but I don't find him safe. It is true that the crazy divorce court cases only happened when I was already back home. Those were vile, but there was over 300km between us.

Something, several things? maybe be found him unsafe, not worthy of trust and not wanting to sit down with him.

I don't know what, or why it happened. Continous nastiness of all sorts, minus physical because I am too far away?

It is true I have no questions for Mr. J. What would be the point of asking why did you do the things you did? Doubt he has a clue.

It is also I am not, nor ever was standing. I have said not standing was my only way of doing this. Standing makes me feel trapped. Not standing leaves things open.

Savy, is there any reason why I should know/ask where he is at? And where about what? Us? There is no us and I would never ask such thing. It is not me.

And even if it were, he is not ready. I don't even think he is ready to be asked if we would like to have a professional relasionship.

For some reason, the idea of sitting with Mr. J leaves me a tiny bit upset and stressed.

P.S.: The idea of sit with Mr. J may be distressing because the physical abuse was horrible, but sparse (no, I am not giving him a pass, just stating a fact), but the emotional abuse lasted for years on end (it still showed his head on an e-mail last year), including the court cases. Same with the financial abuse (that is still going on).
« Last Edit: June 22, 2018, 06:59:04 PM by Anjae »
Sometimes good things fall apart so better things can fall together. (Marilyn Monroe)

Online Treasur

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Re: A New And Different Growing - Where Will It Lead? III
« Reply #43 on: June 23, 2018, 11:10:09 AM »
I think your feelings are understandable. For me it would be a combination of simply not feeling safe with an xh who emotionally abused me and showed no remorse for it, but mostly that it would be pointless. I long ago accepted that in my situation the only answers I would find would be mine. Perhaps it is different if someone shows remorse or a consistent desire to reconnect, but in my situation it would be like hunting a dodo with a butterfly net!
T: 18  M: 12 (at BD)
No kids.
BD Oct 15. OW since Apr 16?
H filed Jan 17. Divorced April 18. XH married ow 6 weeks later.

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"Option A is not available so I need to kick the s**t out of Option B" Sheryl Sandberg

Offline The lighthouse

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Re: A New And Different Growing - Where Will It Lead? III
« Reply #44 on: June 23, 2018, 02:48:13 PM »
I think you've probably put up a protective wall over the years, which is only natural given your particular circumstances with Mr J. That wall is hard to tear down after so long. 

Having said that, I do think that often after what our MLC'ers have put us through, and when there has been a period of distance involved, we build up in our heads that any interaction with them is going to be worse than what the reality of it will be.  This is a natural reaction to the pain and trauma they have put us through and again, a natural instinct for self-protection.

I know myself when I had no contact with my H for a year the reality of that first interaction was far easier and more pleasant than the scenarios I had built up in my head when I had imagined it over that year.

I understand your reasoning for not feeling the need to see Mr J.  I think you have worked hard at giving yourself your own closure over the years.  As you say, you have no questions for him.  You have made peace with it.  Maybe that's why the thought of a meeting with him leaves you feeling unsettled and stressed...it would only serve to upset that peace you have worked so hard to achieve.

M 1992
BD June 2011
Still with OW - No legal action

I am the lighthouse. I don't go out into the storm after the ship.  The ship finds me.

Offline AnjaeTopic starter

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Re: A New And Different Growing - Where Will It Lead? III
« Reply #45 on: June 23, 2018, 07:34:42 PM »
I think you've probably put up a protective wall over the years, which is only natural given your particular circumstances with Mr J. That wall is hard to tear down after so long. 

I have. But the wall was higher and thicker a couple of years ago. I used to write it was higher and more frosty than the one on Game of Thrones. Now, it is no longer like that. More a thin protective veil.

Having said that, I do think that often after what our MLC'ers have put us through, and when there has been a period of distance involved, we build up in our heads that any interaction with them is going to be worse than what the reality of it will be.  This is a natural reaction to the pain and trauma they have put us through and again, a natural instinct for self-protection.

Indeed. Like last January, when I was so upset he was in town. Then, when, by accident, I and friend end up in the bar Mr. J was djing at, it wasn't not bad. It was Mr. J that was dead scared of me, giving two steps back on the dj booth when I went to say I. When leaving, he put his right hand on my left shoulder and said "goodnight". Soon, come the e-mails asking for my address. He had found some journals and wanted to send them.

But January was different than had to sit with him. After saying hi, I come back to where my friends were and carried on talking with them. I didn't had to stay and talk with Mr. J.

I know myself when I had no contact with my H for a year the reality of that first interaction was far easier and more pleasant than the scenarios I had built up in my head when I had imagined it over that year.

I know we do that. But I also know that with Mr. J first interaction after a long time has not always been good. Sometimes it was terrible. Of late, it has been calmer and nicer.

I understand your reasoning for not feeling the need to see Mr J.  I think you have worked hard at giving yourself your own closure over the years.  As you say, you have no questions for him.  You have made peace with it.  Maybe that's why the thought of a meeting with him leaves you feeling unsettled and stressed...it would only serve to upset that peace you have worked so hard to achieve.

Indeed. I do not need to see him. But he needs to see me. He has tried some more direct, and other more indirect ways of doing so. Including last year's e-mail with the "I only want to exchange things in person". Songandance and Trusandlove pointed it had nothing to do with the stuff, but with him wanting to see me.

I have never tried to see him. Not have I ever told him I had been to the capital. He had told several times he was here, and tried to meet, be it to apologize (early 2008 after OW1 was no more) or to exchange things. Or because of this or that. None ot those things require see me.

He can apologize by e-mail or phone. Things can be left at MIL, SIL, my mum's or sent by post. And I can leave stuff ar SIL or MIL  or send by post.

I know, and understand, one day he will want to talk. That talk will be more for him than for me.

Out of the fog Mr. J, or in fog Mr. J, but on a fogless day, will understand why I want to keep my peace. Most likely he will say "I am sorry you do not want to see/meet me, But I understand. Maybe next time." And I will reply "Thank you for understanding. Yes, maybe next time."

Unless, of course, some unexpected that leads to talking happens.
Sometimes good things fall apart so better things can fall together. (Marilyn Monroe)

Offline Savoir Faire

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Re: A New And Different Growing - Where Will It Lead? III
« Reply #46 on: June 24, 2018, 11:20:02 PM »
We are all looking forward to the day Mr J needs to talk.  Monumental moment.
"And when they ask you about me and you find yourself thinking back on all of our memories,
I hope you ache in regret as the truth hits you like a bullet and you find yourself replying: ""She loved me more than anyone else in the entire world and I tried to destroy her."  He failed by the way. 
http://mlcforum.theherosspouse.com/index.php?topic=8412(Denjef's thread)

Offline AnjaeTopic starter

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Re: A New And Different Growing - Where Will It Lead? III
« Reply #47 on: June 26, 2018, 04:51:30 PM »
We are all looking forward to the day Mr J needs to talk.  Monumental moment.

I think we should all be looking forward to how I will reach to said moment.  ;) ::)

He probably would love to talk, given the chance. But I am not getting in touch to ask, and, so far, he hasn't come forward.

today I lost another virtual friend, the head of a photography group I am part of (had lost a Coursera colleague that become a close virtual friend a while ago) and someone posted to Facebook a place that was, when we lived in the capital, a meeting point for people involved in music, arts, culture. It brought back so many great memories, but also left a little sadness.

In fact, that happens with lots of places in the capital. They have a special meaning, much more than places here before we moved. They always bring back wonderful memories.

I truly like the 13 years I lived in the capital, even when Mr. J had already left. In real life people always say I miss the capital. It is true.
Most people I am close with, family aside, live there. In the capital people still meet in several of the places they used to when I left.

Here, at least for me, it all seems more divided. Maybe it is just a feeling and not reality. Why don't I move? It is too expensive. Portuguese wages, London or Paris prices. It is a mess. Public transportation is on the on the brink of collapse, trafic is insane. And it is too hot and dry.

I was always having asthma attacks there (the not nice part of living in the capital). Here I barely have any. Also, I doubt I would be able to live with the stress and fast pace of the capital again.

The memories are wonderful, of a great creative period in my life, of living with Mr. J, but they are probably just that.

If anything, I need peace and quiet, not confusion, stress, feeling anxious because the bus or tube is late (or too crowded, making my claustrophobia tick).

Probably, I would just like something similar to the type of life I had there here. And having someone new in my life wouldn't hurt.
Sometimes good things fall apart so better things can fall together. (Marilyn Monroe)

Offline The lighthouse

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Re: A New And Different Growing - Where Will It Lead? III
« Reply #48 on: June 26, 2018, 08:16:14 PM »
It sounds like you're feeling a little nostalgic Anjae.  It's only natural for that to happen every now and then, but it also sounds like you are in the best place now for your health, both mentally and physically. 

The someone new...that will most likely happen in its own good time.
M 1992
BD June 2011
Still with OW - No legal action

I am the lighthouse. I don't go out into the storm after the ship.  The ship finds me.

Online Treasur

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Re: A New And Different Growing - Where Will It Lead? III
« Reply #49 on: June 26, 2018, 09:55:14 PM »
I wonder if it isn’t about the place per se but a bit of your soul is saying that there are some missing bits in your life that you’re ready to fill again, maybe in a different way?
T: 18  M: 12 (at BD)
No kids.
BD Oct 15. OW since Apr 16?
H filed Jan 17. Divorced April 18. XH married ow 6 weeks later.

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"Option A is not available so I need to kick the s**t out of Option B" Sheryl Sandberg

Offline Savoir Faire

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Re: A New And Different Growing - Where Will It Lead? III
« Reply #50 on: June 26, 2018, 11:39:59 PM »
After all these years Anjae, you deserve an explanation for his madness.  I would be contacting and asking for a meeting, but that's just me - I need answers and to see some real emotion from them after all the freezing out we got.  I'm stubborn and although leaving them to it is great foe the first few years, enough is enough after a whole and you are important too - important enough to ask questions and be heard.
"And when they ask you about me and you find yourself thinking back on all of our memories,
I hope you ache in regret as the truth hits you like a bullet and you find yourself replying: ""She loved me more than anyone else in the entire world and I tried to destroy her."  He failed by the way. 
http://mlcforum.theherosspouse.com/index.php?topic=8412(Denjef's thread)

Offline AnjaeTopic starter

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Re: A New And Different Growing - Where Will It Lead? III
« Reply #51 on: June 27, 2018, 01:04:10 AM »
It sounds like you're feeling a little nostalgic Anjae.  It's only natural for that to happen every now and then, but it also sounds like you are in the best place now for your health, both mentally and physically. 

The someone new...that will most likely happen in its own good time.

It is weird. It is not exactly nostalgic. More like the memories, and what triggers them, are happening for a purpose. There is no pain, the memories are good. They make me smile.

Yes, here it is best for my mental and and physical health. So far, it has not been best for money, but, I don't think more money possible (possible because it is not a given it would be so in the capital) and less health would make sense.

When I see current pictures of the capital it looks like a nightmare to me. Just like any clubbing image now looks like a nightmare. And to think that, after BD, I would be out and about clubbing. Didn't last long and I cannot do it again.

Yes, someone new will happen in time. I think that, now, I do miss a connection with someone special. Different from what it used to be, since I was not that much up to have anyone new in my life for a very long while.

I wonder if it isn’t about the place per se but a bit of your soul is saying that there are some missing bits in your life that you’re ready to fill again, maybe in a different way?

Good question. I think, in part, it is the place and in part it is missing parts of my life I would like back. And, yet, I am not that into going to certain things I have been going to since yearly last year (and that I used to go to before grandmother start to need a lot of care).

It is either like something is missing or I am on the middle of a new changing to the next phase. At the moment, it is hard to say.

After all these years Anjae, you deserve an explanation for his madness.  I would be contacting and asking for a meeting, but that's just me - I need answers and to see some real emotion from them after all the freezing out we got.  I'm stubborn and although leaving them to it is great foe the first few years, enough is enough after a whole and you are important too - important enough to ask questions and be heard.


I have been thinking about your idea that I need an explanation for Mr. J's madness and talking to him. But, what good would it serve? I know the reason for his madness. He is not capable of explaining anything. And I don't think it makes any sense to call for a meeting when we are not in contact to start to ask stuff to which I know the answer to.

If anything, I have asked too much over the years and made myself overheard. I got nothing in return but nasty, court cases and monster.

I don't think the issue is so much Mr. J and answers from him (but I may be wrong). It has more to do with me and my, until recently, need to be alone. Somehow that has changed, but, also, somehow, going out is not bringing the satisfaction it used to. I do think it is a new changing period, but only time will tell.

I have invitations to attend lots of things. Too many. I end up tired with so many invitations and end up watching the World Cup instead.  ::)

Which reminds me there is a Germany game today.  :) The other side I root for, Portugal aside. Also been liking England this year.

Will be thinking more about the questions you ladies put. After the matches.  :)
Sometimes good things fall apart so better things can fall together. (Marilyn Monroe)

Offline Savoir Faire

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Re: A New And Different Growing - Where Will It Lead? III
« Reply #52 on: June 27, 2018, 02:57:40 AM »

After all these years Anjae, you deserve an explanation for his madness.  I would be contacting and asking for a meeting, but that's just me - I need answers and to see some real emotion from them after all the freezing out we got.  I'm stubborn and although leaving them to it is great foe the first few years, enough is enough after a whole and you are important too - important enough to ask questions and be heard.
I have been thinking about your idea that I need an explanation for Mr. J's madness and talking to him. But, what good would it serve? I know the reason for his madness. He is not capable of explaining anything. And I don't think it makes any sense to call for a meeting when we are not in contact to start to ask stuff to which I know the answer to.

I am wondering if you do really know how he would explain what he's done.  You THINK you know, but his explanation, after all this time, may be different to what you think.  He may be quite capable of explaining everything to you very well and may have wanted to but is scared of your reaction.  It's possible he needs you to make the first move .  I doubt he is still in monster after all these years and its possible he would welcome contact from you.  If he has seen some light into his tunnel, he may want to speak with you and not know how to do this.  We are always the stronger ones. His answers may be the first step to some sort of open communication which is a big step in the right direction.

I was reading some research of people who had been divorced for at least 10 years, it explained that 80% of the people they surveyed actually wanted to re-marry their ex wife/husband because of the love and history they shared but most are too scared to make a move.  Such a waste.


"And when they ask you about me and you find yourself thinking back on all of our memories,
I hope you ache in regret as the truth hits you like a bullet and you find yourself replying: ""She loved me more than anyone else in the entire world and I tried to destroy her."  He failed by the way. 
http://mlcforum.theherosspouse.com/index.php?topic=8412(Denjef's thread)

Offline Nas

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Re: A New And Different Growing - Where Will It Lead? III
« Reply #53 on: June 27, 2018, 06:41:13 AM »


I was reading some research of people who had been divorced for at least 10 years, it explained that 80% of the people they surveyed actually wanted to re-marry their ex wife/husband because of the love and history they shared but most are too scared to make a move.  Such a waste.

This would be very interesting to read.  Do you have a link or can you tell us where to find this?
Married 8 years at BD, together 16.
BD March 2015
H moved out July 2015
I found out about OW March 2016 (She went to high school with H, long distance EA since September 2014, became PA November 2015)
H moved 1100 miles to live with OW June 2016
I was diagnosed with advanced breast cancer June 2017
H became a vanisher

Offline AnjaeTopic starter

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Re: A New And Different Growing - Where Will It Lead? III
« Reply #54 on: June 27, 2018, 02:46:19 PM »
Matches watched. Since Germany is out on the groups stage for the first time in 80 years, I think, right now, I pretty much believe in anything.   ;D ;D ;D

I have been thinking how to answer to your post, Savy.

I uderstand what you are saying, and don't even really disagree, but, I think, you are going with what would work for you/what you would like to happen in your situation.

Let me try to explain. Talks, explanations, words, don't work with me. That is not the way of opening communication with me. Not in this case, at least. The way of opening communication would be for Mr. J to put a good amount on money on my bank account.

If that happens, I may be inclined to listen to him, if he would come to me. I will not go to him, unless to request him to send me some books, which he never does anyway.

I don't really want to listen to him.

Why do you think that would help me? What do you think it would change? I agree it may (may, I am not sure if it would) be of help to Mr. J.

I know most LBS want an apology and a talk with their MLCer, I don't. I want actions.

Mr. J may be scared, but less than he was in January.

And I wouldn't believe scared is what keep MLCers away from their LBS. Look at LP's husband. He has been trying to come back to her for a while now. Even if, like Mr. J, he was a nasty, physically abusive MLCer that LP had to cut contact with to protect herself.

I was reading some research of people who had been divorced for at least 10 years, it explained that 80% of the people they surveyed actually wanted to re-marry their ex wife/husband because of the love and history they shared but most are too scared to make a move.  Such a waste.

It would be interesting to read, but I am not sure I believe it. Besides, of those 80% many will be in new relationships/marriages, so, even it they would make a move, they would be cheating on their current spouse/partner.

MLC is a big risk, mostly for the MLCer. It is also a risk people who divorce have to deal with.

Savy, you are assuming I still love Mr. J and that he still loves me, or that I would belive him if he said he would still love me. I no longer love him (not in the way spouses love each other), and I would not believe him if he said he would still love me.

So, I am not certain there is much point in any contact with him, other than to sort money and assets (that can be done by the lawyers) and, maybe, for professional reasons.

Also, he is still with OW2. There is no way I will get personally close to him while she is still around. I will not be OW to OW, like he wanted me to be early on.

It was enough to still be close to him when OW1 was around. But, by then, I thought that thing was going to die and he would come back home. They never lived together, he never run to divorce court while OW1 was around.

Having the MLCer coming and going is something some LBS can deal with. I can't.
Sometimes good things fall apart so better things can fall together. (Marilyn Monroe)

Offline AnjaeTopic starter

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Re: A New And Different Growing - Where Will It Lead? III
« Reply #55 on: July 01, 2018, 07:24:37 PM »
OP, hope you're reading.

ready coming back reminded me we haven't see DGU around in ages. Do you know how he is doing and what is going on with his MLCer?

What about his friend and his wife? Do they remain remarried?
Sometimes good things fall apart so better things can fall together. (Marilyn Monroe)

Offline calamity

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Re: A New And Different Growing - Where Will It Lead? III
« Reply #56 on: July 03, 2018, 01:25:44 PM »
Quote
The way of opening communication would be for Mr. J to put a good amount on money on my bank account.
;D ;D ;D

Offline Trustandlove

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Re: A New And Different Growing - Where Will It Lead? III
« Reply #57 on: July 17, 2018, 01:59:42 AM »
Just bumping this up -- I, too, think about DGU, he was always a stable force here, very calm and sure of his own way. 

Offline AnjaeTopic starter

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Re: A New And Different Growing - Where Will It Lead? III
« Reply #58 on: July 17, 2018, 04:07:28 PM »
Just bumping this up -- I, too, think about DGU, he was always a stable force here, very calm and sure of his own way.

Yes he was. He is missed.

He had it pretty figured out: "what is the part of the word crisis that you don't understand?"  ;) ;D

Think we understand, or come to understand, the word crisis, but even so, this whole MLC is bizarre. And a long lasting affliction.
Sometimes good things fall apart so better things can fall together. (Marilyn Monroe)

Offline Savoir Faire

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Re: A New And Different Growing - Where Will It Lead? III
« Reply #59 on: July 17, 2018, 09:51:36 PM »
Does OP know how he is going Anjae?  There are a lot of people I miss from here, LLL, Shadow, Blackhen, StillPraying.  They were my family for a long time.
"And when they ask you about me and you find yourself thinking back on all of our memories,
I hope you ache in regret as the truth hits you like a bullet and you find yourself replying: ""She loved me more than anyone else in the entire world and I tried to destroy her."  He failed by the way. 
http://mlcforum.theherosspouse.com/index.php?topic=8412(Denjef's thread)

Offline AnjaeTopic starter

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Re: A New And Different Growing - Where Will It Lead? III
« Reply #60 on: July 18, 2018, 03:52:40 PM »
Does OP know how he is going Anjae? 

No, OP does not know.

There are a lot of people I miss from here, LLL, Shadow, Blackhen, StillPraying.  They were my family for a long time.

We did become a family.  :) Maybe they will return someday and update us.  :)
Sometimes good things fall apart so better things can fall together. (Marilyn Monroe)

Offline AnjaeTopic starter

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Re: A New And Different Growing - Where Will It Lead? III
« Reply #61 on: July 20, 2018, 06:01:25 PM »
Yesterday (Friday) grandmother's last surviving brother died (the two younger sisters are still alive). It was not an unexpected death. He had a stroke more or less when grandmother had hers. His was less severe. He was able to speak and one side of his body had movement. He showed sighns of improvement until he realised he was not coming back home.

Since he knew he would never return home, he stop trying. There was no point. The stoked had consequences, but the sadness of never be back home - he was born home and had lived with several of his never married siblings until the stoke, that is for almost 90 years, made him withdrawal more and more. To make matters worst, the arm he could move was tied because he was always trying to pull the feeding tube.

He also got fed up of being moved from continuous care place to continuous care place and the family believes one of the reasons he tried to remove the feeding tube was because we wanted to go.

Grandmother, even if her last stroke was much worst than his fighted till the end. She was home almost till the last day, surrounded by her family.

My great-uncle is not in peace, but I believe sometimes people don't recover as much as they could, within the limits of their illness, because they do not return home, this is especially true of elderly people. Grandmother's GP as said as much.

I cannot say it was terrible news. We were all relieved his suffering and sadness is over. The doctors couldn't turn around, he would not be able to go back home. The main reason being his sisters could not look after him. For some reason, they didn't choose home care for him. 

But I don't really like care homes, continous cares units (even if I understand their purpose and I am glad they exist so that, at least, there is a place with professionals to look after people - and there are situations that involve machines and proceedings that can be hard to provide at home). Care homes in particular are something confusing.

Separating elderly people from the rest of the family often does not make sense nor is a medical necessity. We don't separate babies/kids from parents just because they are babies/kids, but we do it with elderly people. Most of grandmother's siblings died at home. And many people that die in a hospital these days didn't have to. Even grandmother could had died in her bed had the hospital allowed for it. Morphine matches were managable for me, and intravenous one could had been dealt by a nurse.

I think we need to change some things when it comes to end of life. We also need to factor that separating people from their families is not always a good thing. Yes, it is difficult for familes to care for their ill or elderly loved ones. Our government has been thinking of providing means, including financial ones, to informal caregives, because informal caregives allows for beds in hospital or care homes not to be taken.

It is cruel to have lived in family for 90 or nearly 90 years, then end up on a medical bed, in a small ward. Stroke patients like my great-uncle are not uncouscious, they sense things.

On a more personal note, the family I knew the better, the family that was relevant when I was a child is dying. Somehow we form stronger bonds when we are kids then when we are adults. I have (had) stronger bonds to my grandmothers and several great uncles and aunts than to my nephews and second cousins. Or maybe it is because nowadays kids are too busy with many activities including during Summer. When I was a kid there would be weeks, or months, in one place or another.

I am also losing houses. The houses of my childhood. I have found memories of those houses, their gardens and backyards, the great food and the fun we had.

Now we go to restaurants. Not the same thing.

Interestingly, every singe death in my family (of those I was close to), aside from my paternal grandfather and paternal grandmother's mother that died when I was a small child, happened after Mr J had left.

Dad died a few days after Mr J left. A month of so latter my favourite maternal great aunt. Then an uncle, then my paternal aunt, then maternal great-aunt and maternal great-uncle. Then paternal great-aunt, then grandmother and the other grandmother who is still alive but has dementia. 

This also makes me feel the barrier is shrieking. The first layer is dissapearing (the second if I count with the great-grand mother I still knew, but I was too small to truly feel her loss or have a sense of loss). Next, after the remaining members of the first generation (2 from each side) is mum, their sibling, their siblings spouses or ex-spouses (but for my uncle that has already died). Dad and his sisters are dead. And then it is us and I am the oldest grandchild.

Is this a case of not having children/grandchildren? Would it be different if I had? Maybe. My aunt and mum and their sister and brother don't seem upset, but it is hard to say. Crying is not a family thing, so, who knows. I know my aunt, since her mild stroke early this year changed a lot and is much more aware of her mortality - stokes seem to run in the family and she saw her mother and uncle havinh stokes too close to each other and it scares her.

Several of my maternal great-aunts and uncles never marry or had children. They had each others, their nephews/nieces, second nephews/nieces (of which I am one), cousins and their children and grandchildren.

Can't really say if having, or not having, children makes a difference.

Does this changes anything MLC related? Not really. I can change MLC, including Mr J's one as much as I could reverse the stroke effects, that is I cannot solve it. On a scientific note, strokes and its consequences may one day, hopefully soon, have groundbreaking improvements, MLC not so certain.

I guess I will be seeing maternal grandmother's family cemetery I have not seen in many years. When grandmother's younger sister was burried and stayed here with grandmother. Grandmother is not burried there, her ashes are in the rosegarden, a rose bushes area in one of Porto's cemeteries as it was her wish.
Sometimes good things fall apart so better things can fall together. (Marilyn Monroe)

Offline The lighthouse

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Re: A New And Different Growing - Where Will It Lead? III
« Reply #62 on: July 20, 2018, 08:09:04 PM »
I am sorry to hear about your great-uncle Anjae.  At least now there is no more suffering for him. 

Your grandmother was lucky to have you care for her so she could stay home and not have to be in a care home. 

I agree, it is sad when old people have to end their lives this way, but for some sadly necessary because they don't have an able person to care for them at home.
M 1992
BD June 2011
Still with OW - No legal action

I am the lighthouse. I don't go out into the storm after the ship.  The ship finds me.

Offline AnjaeTopic starter

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Re: A New And Different Growing - Where Will It Lead? III
« Reply #63 on: July 21, 2018, 05:12:11 PM »
Thank you, Light.

Indeed, his suffering is over. He looked very serene and at peace. It was a short, simple funeral. He was not religious. His sister who organized it respected his wish. That is a nice thing of my maternal family, we tend to respect the person' wishes.

Mr J's maternal grandmother was burried here rather than by her husband's side in the village they have lived in for many decades because MIL did not want to bury her there.

Grandmother was lucky and so was I. I cannot look after my paternal grandmother even if I wanted to. Her dementia left her very agressive. It would had been dangerous to myself and her.
Sometimes good things fall apart so better things can fall together. (Marilyn Monroe)

Offline AnjaeTopic starter

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Re: A New And Different Growing - Where Will It Lead? III
« Reply #64 on: September 03, 2018, 12:42:45 PM »
MLCer update. Long one.

I have previously mentioned that there will be a big exhibition here about music and culture and that some of mine and Mr J's former records labels and joing projects will be represented.

So far, so good. The thing is, nearly everything from the records labels, including the records released are with Mr J or at MIL. The labels are legally mine and mine alone, but we both worked on them.

The curators tried to get in touch with Mr J in may through Facebook, both on his personal as well as his professional page. No reply.

A few weeks ago they called me. Could I try to get in touch with Mr J? Sure. Last week and the week before I tried to called his mobile. He either answered, but it went dead or he didn't answered. I called his work. They told me he was away, on holidays and would be back today.

Called his work today. He didn't recognise my voice, asked "Who is it?". I told him, said good morning and explained why I was calling him.

At first I got a lenghty explanation about both is personal and professional Facebook pages. That only those who are friends with him can message him or see is personal page. Not true. Anyone can message a professional page, not just people a professional page is friends with. Also not true only those who are friends with him can see his personal page or message it. I can see is personal page and I am not friends with him. The curators know he had read the messages on both his pages.

Then he changed for those messages (what messages?) get to the bottom and he misses them. Then he didn't knew the guy who messaged him. I explained that Z and R, who he knows well, are respectively chief curator and curator. No, he does not know Z and R well. I said, we have worked with Z for seven years on our former joint project and known and worked with R since the late 80's.

Then it was, R is on my Facebook, but I got no message from him (first the messages get to bottom and he does not see them, but he knew R hadn't messaged him). I explained again, R didn't got in touch with him X, another one of the curators, that has worked at  place Y in the capital for many years and knows you, did.

So far, still so good. Then it come the "I don't want to speak with you", "I don't ever want to speak with you", "you will only get anything from me when you stop being arrogant", "e-mail me the link of the exhibition and I will think about it" (think about if he will lend my stuff to the curators? Right.), "It is your problem that things are at MIL's" (of course it is...  ::)) and so on with I don't know how many times "you are arrogant". I was all nice and even start to say "I would like to know if you can help me and the curators of exhibition X". 7

He did, however, confirm he has several items that are relevant to the exhibition - in the past, when I have asked him about those things he said he didn't had them or had lost them. Go figure.

But the anger, the "you're arrogant", the disdain, the all nastiness, the unpleasantness, the disrespect. Please, it has been 12 years. The man had just returned from a nice holiday with OW2, he bough a fancy flat with OW2 early this year. Can he not be happy? Ever? Does he always has to be so unkind and keep playing power games?

The exhibition does not depend of him. Worst case scenario the musicians can provide the records, but they cannot provide other relevant materials. And some of the musicians already know that if Mr J does not provide a thing they will have to.

This whole thing in not nice for me. Having to be asking for what is mine and be meet with such disdain. Having to explain curators and musicians that most things are with Mr J. Still, the exhibition is more important than Mr J or I. But, boy, as he not grow at all in 12 years? Isn't he living with the "person he loved the most in the world"?

Doesn't he leads the life he wants? Why such bad blood? Well, in part, I think, because he does not like to be reminded he has my stuff and the record labels are legally mine. He likes to pretend he owns them because that makes him important.

Other than that, no idea. It should be I who didn't want to speak with him and who should be vile towards him.

And no, he is not having a MLC. Not anymore. His voice was normal, he has simply become an horrible person. Good grief, and to think once, I thought the marriage to this person was important and that we could be a couple again. I don't recall ever had to deal with someone so nasty and unpleasant.

Also, no, it is not a case of the prisoner and monster. OW2 (or OW1) were not mentioned, only work things were and he went from nice to nasty in a few minutes. As soon as he knew it was about him having to part with things that don't belong to him he was all angry.

And am I the only one who sees a contradiction between "you will only get something from me when you stop being arrogant" and "I don't want to talk to you ever."  ???

I was nicer than nice. By default I am much more like LP and Stayed and being all nice andn gentle with a MLCer is not my thing, but it would be important to have those materials at the exhibition. I pretty much felt like saying, "Listen mate, I am not asking, I am telling you you will have those things available for the curators pronto." of course, it would backfire, .

Lets see if the things will, or will not, be on the exhibition. If not, well, it is a pity, but, for now, nothing I can do. He will not handle them to me and after the exhibition, even if they are mine, they will be handle back to him in order to avoid problems for the curators.
Sometimes good things fall apart so better things can fall together. (Marilyn Monroe)

Offline Mitzpah

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Re: A New And Different Growing - Where Will It Lead? III
« Reply #65 on: September 03, 2018, 05:56:37 PM »
Anjae,

I am sorry Mr J is still being so nasty and accusatory towards you. You don't deserve it. I think this has more to do with his own shortcomings than anything else. Possibly pure projection.

I hope the work is able to be shown and that your copyrights are honoured.

Beijinhos
M 57
H 56
S 26
S 25
D 23
BD 13 Dec 2010
Divorced 27 Feb 2015 (30 years marriage)

"For I know the plans I have for you," declares the LORD, "plans to prosper you and not to harm you, plans to give you hope and a future" Jeremiah 29:11

Online Treasur

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Re: A New And Different Growing - Where Will It Lead? III
« Reply #66 on: September 04, 2018, 04:40:00 AM »
Perhaps you should legally reclaim what is yours?
T: 18  M: 12 (at BD)
No kids.
BD Oct 15. OW since Apr 16?
H filed Jan 17. Divorced April 18. XH married ow 6 weeks later.

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Offline Ready2Transform

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Re: A New And Different Growing - Where Will It Lead? III
« Reply #67 on: September 04, 2018, 08:43:27 AM »
I hope things come through for the exhibit, as it sounds like the exposure would be great for YOU and your future work! I'm with Treasure. Maybe seeing who he is now, it's time to push to get closure and legally reclaim what you should rightfully have.

And no, he is not having a MLC. Not anymore.

Not going to gloss over this, it's a biggie! And unfortunately, something some of us have to come to terms with. It's easy (at least it was for me) when we're not in regular contact to idealize the process and feel they are having forward motion or something. But this last year of near constant back and forths with xH has put things in a much different perspective for me, and I have accepted that the man I perceived him to be, my best friend, is gone for good. It's been hard, but healing. The peace comes in rerouting that hope I had for him and our relationship back to the future for myself. And I hope YOUR future includes your things!! MrJ has had control of that for far too long.
"Unconditional love is the highest of high standards, and while we are letting go of our need to control the process of anyone else, we are taking within our lives complete accountability for our own experience."

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Offline AnjaeTopic starter

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Re: A New And Different Growing - Where Will It Lead? III
« Reply #68 on: September 04, 2018, 02:01:05 PM »
Hi Mitz, Treasur and Ready2.


I am sorry about the loss of Rio's Museum, Mitz. Such a tremendous cultural loss. :-(
 
No doubt it has to do with him. Shortcomings? Maybe. More like this is who he has become. Or if for now.

One of the curators called him today at work, he was having a day off. Back from holidays and already on a day off? Whatever. The curator will try to reach him again tomorrow morning.

Just in case, I already secured with a record shop two of the most relevant records I do not have.

Perhaps you should legally reclaim what is yours?

No point for the exhibition. It opens Friday. For other matters, my lawyer hasn't been answering of late - probably tired of this never ending soap opera. Plus, I already went through the court system 3 times with no results.

No court, lawyer, whatever can make a MLCer comply to court orders or the law. How many here have MLCers not paying court ordered alimony and or child support? Several. I have an European friend, married to another European (different countries), both living in the US. He has been having a MLC for a few years and is as nasty as Mr J.

Worst, since that MLCers took their daughter and even if the court ordered him to allow his wife to see their daughter, talk to her daily, etc. he does not comply. He has moved states, at a point, who knows how - money, I would say, since he has a lot of it - he even brought the daughter to Europe. His LBS does not have the money to fly over here.

If some of these guys can take the children and don't care about courts, what do you think Mr J will do? Nothing. Or destroy everything.

I am tired of lawyers, courts, etc. None managed to solve a thing. No lawyer, no court. Zero. Everything remained the same. The only person who, even if in almost nothings, manages something is me.

Mr J does not want to deal with lawyers and courts, does not respect them and will do his best to do the opposite of what they told him to do.

No idea if Mr J is truly gone for good. He has been weird to say the least for the past two and a half years. A different weird. With his once or twice a year e-mails, his e-mails early this year than even included Happy Easter, sending my journals, putting his hand on my shoulder when I saw in in January.

It is all super confusing and he is a mess.

To be fair, Ready2, we may be seeing the insane other end of the tunnel. But in a fashion that, usually, we are not told about on HS. We know, and righ a lot, about going into the tunnel, but very little about coming out of it.

I think some HB articles are better when it comes to how certain things are in MLC. Less beautiful theories and more ugly reality.

Anyway, now, what matters is the exhibition opening. Then, we shall see. The exhibition will show that the material have a cultural value, which is legally good for me.

And maybe Mr J will not want to be the vilain. Because this time I flat out told everyone why I am asking for things I should have: Mr J has them, but has been ignoring me and the curators.

Don't mix things, I don't want the mess he is in my life and I am interested in finding someone new, what I mean is that this crazy recent behaviour is not so different from the crazy before and after BD behaviour.
Sometimes good things fall apart so better things can fall together. (Marilyn Monroe)

Offline xyzcf

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Re: A New And Different Growing - Where Will It Lead? III
« Reply #69 on: September 04, 2018, 02:08:51 PM »
Sorry Anjae ....why they continue to feel that somehow we are the enemy is beyond me. I sort of have given up on trying to figure out why they do anything.

Let us know more about the exposition!

DGU dropped by on Sunday and we had a nice visit...it has been years...he is still the "good man" that he has always been....he helped me so many times get off the ledge with his reason and logic and it was delightful to see him...makes me realize how fond I am of many LBSers! He doesn't participate in HS anymore and is keeping very busy and oh yes, his friend whose wife divorced, remarried, divorced again, lived with an OM and then came back to her husband and they remarried , they are doing very well.

Lately, I have been aware of my friend's husbands who are really good and decent men. It has allowed me to realized the difference between good and decent men and who my husband has become...it has made me understand that this is a huge anomaly....we were a couple like the many married couples I am friends with, and my husband was that good man once.....but I can really see now how damaged he is and how much of him is lost....instead of the length of the crisis making things better I now believe that in some cases, the pathology continues and they lose even more of who they once were...just my observation which means little or nothing.
« Last Edit: September 04, 2018, 02:10:01 PM by xyzcf »
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Offline AnjaeTopic starter

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Re: A New And Different Growing - Where Will It Lead? III
« Reply #70 on: September 04, 2018, 02:51:03 PM »
Sorry Anjae ....why they continue to feel that somehow we are the enemy is beyond me. I sort of have given up on trying to figure out why they do anything.

If I was a therapy theories person, I would say it is because they still see themselves as the enemy. Or something to do with projection. It may be that, it may be something else. It is annoying, unkind and unpleasant.


The exhibition is a big one, about music and culture in Porto from 1960 to 2010 and will be held in the Municipal Gallery. Mayor, culture city councilor, etc. will attend the opening. Not sure if the President will attend this one. It will be the first of several around the same matters and it may lead to a nacional archive/museum or other things. It is the start of something new. It has been paid for by the city hall and the Ministry of Culture - people who lend material are not paid - the money if for all the costs involved.

Everyone that had a record label in Porto during those decades will be represented. City musicians, promoters, newspapers and magazines that wrote about music and culture, or outside the city that wrote about the city scene will be on display as well as original art works, for example for record covers, letters between musicians, record lables, promoters, etc. It really is very important.

Having curators of something that huge willing to track down Mr J because the material I own matter is, I think, self-explanatory about how relavant those materials are as well as the exhibition. For everyone but Mr control freak aka Mr J aka Mr Nighclub.

The materials are too culturally important for I, or the curators, to risk having Mr J throwing a fit and destrying them. He would be in deep legal troubles, but the things would not exist anymore.
 
Great to know DGU dropped by and to know he is doing well. Miss him a lot around here. Glad to year his friend and wife remain remarried and that all is well with them. His friends story is something and only goes to show how insane this MLC thing is.

It is terrible, isn't it? To know that, once, we were a couple like many other couples, that we had a good, decent husband, and now we have these creatures we do not recognise.

... instead of the length of the crisis making things better I now believe that in some cases, the pathology continues and they lose even more of who they once were...

I agree. I don't know if those cases will remain in crisis forever, but I do agree that being in MLC/replay for so long makes it much worst and they lose themselves more and more. If we thing about it, it makes sense. Since MLC is similar to addiction, the longer someone is an addict, the more that person loses itself

When I talked with him yesterday, Mr J flipped from very nice at first to monster in minutes. Just like he used to do right before and after BD. This monster was nicer than the BD one, doubt he dares to go as far as before and I am not at hand, so, he cannot physically hurt me.

He has found the only thing that gives him power, or so he thinks, keeping my things (and, of course, not paying me what he has to). He already realized that divorced or not divorced is not going to prevent me from having someone new in my life and I haven't gone back to the capital. Nor have I asked in more than a decade if he loves me, if we may be a couple again, etc - aside from when the court ordered that the question should be made for legal reasons.

I also couldn't care less about his OW, his new fancy flat, etc. So, the poor man grabs my things and does not let them go. Who does not let go of the things of the spouse they don't stand? Someone that still wants to have to control the spouse. If someone still wants to control a spouse it means that someone is not indifferent to the spouse. I don't mean love, I mean they are not indifferent. I don't believe the deep in the fog, nasty, cruel MLCer loves us. They want to control us, to make sure we are where they left us.

That is never the case since life goes on. They also want attention. And to fight. After all, fighting means attention.
Sometimes good things fall apart so better things can fall together. (Marilyn Monroe)

Offline kikki

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Re: A New And Different Growing - Where Will It Lead? III
« Reply #71 on: September 04, 2018, 11:16:29 PM »
I doubt I will ever get used to MLCers Anjae, and their bizarre thinking processes.

I agree, their need to control us after all of these years is freaky beyond measure.
Congratulations on being asked to be included in such a culturally important exhibition.

Quote
nstead of the length of the crisis making things better I now believe that in some cases, the pathology continues and they lose even more of who they once were...just my observation which means little or nothing.
It's my observation too xyzcf, sadly :(

Offline Trustandlove

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Re: A New And Different Growing - Where Will It Lead? III
« Reply #72 on: September 05, 2018, 12:30:35 AM »
Hi, Anjae,

Following along, nodding sadly in recognition....

My own experience at this moment is also that he has changed completely; what you said about the longer someone is an addict resonated...    I will admit that it is sometimes still hard for me to fathom the person he has become, it is not a nice one.

What xy says about knowing they were once good, kind, decent men also resonated; I was also just at an event with a number of our long-time friends, couples who are like we were, who still are, the men are all still good, kind and decent -- though all the trials and tribulations all of them have faced.

And I am glad to hear news of DGU!  I am glad he is well, glad his friend is doing well also.  He always did have his head screwed on right. 

I will join in the congratulations that you have been asked to be a part of an important exhibition, Anjae, it is good to get recognition for the work you do.  Well done!   

Offline AnjaeTopic starter

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Re: A New And Different Growing - Where Will It Lead? III
« Reply #73 on: September 05, 2018, 01:07:00 PM »
Thank you, Kikki and Trustandlove.

Please have in mind I did not do all that work alone, Mr J was the other creative half. We were an amazing creative team. Of course that Mr J was not like crisis Mr J. Nothing would had been created if he was.

I doubt I will ever get used to MLCers Anjae, and their bizarre thinking processes.

Do they think?  ::) I guess one gets used to them being crazy....

I agree, their need to control us after all of these years is freaky beyond measure.

No one in their right mind would care about their ex life. MLCers? Control, control, control. And try as much as possible to have the LBS where they left us.

My own experience at this moment is also that he has changed completely; what you said about the longer someone is an addict resonated...    I will admit that it is sometimes still hard for me to fathom the person he has become, it is not a nice one.

Mr J seems to be a strange person right now and since two and a half years ago. He start to go back to concerts of bands he likes, he sometimes gets in touch and is much nicer. Then we have the mix of normal and  crazy monster like Monday.

We tend to think that they are becoming better people, but the longer the crisis, the less it seems to be so. Still, who knows. Stayed's Irish friend's husband turned up out of the blue ater had been gone for nine years.

For mine and yours Trust it has been more than 9 years, for Xyzcf's husband it has been 9 years and 9 years down the road he asked for a divorce who knows why.

Then there are those like Mitzpah husband, it has been 7 years I think, he does not get worst, but he also does not seem to get better/really come out of Replay. Mitz MLCer is a nice one, not an ugly monster one like Mr J. Still, nice or monster, that does not seem to be a factor for how long will they remain in crisis/Replay.

Strange it may seem, I would rather be at a festival up North than at the exhibition opening. The exhibition is about my past, the festival is about the future. And some new bands I really like and tons of people I would like to hang with will be there. Seems I am favouring younger people and/or new friends over older friends/older people.
Sometimes good things fall apart so better things can fall together. (Marilyn Monroe)

Offline Savoir Faire

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Re: A New And Different Growing - Where Will It Lead? III
« Reply #74 on: September 05, 2018, 08:01:12 PM »
Anjae, I'm sorry you had such a nasty conversation with your H.  It's unfathomable what caused him to flip into monster, MLCers are so weak, they seem to turn on a dime at the slightest provocation.

One of the things I have noticed about many MCLers is that a lot are in high powered positions and also much of the time can be put into a couple of categories.  There are those who are very talented in art and music and the others are in the mathematics stream where they seem to be employed in IT or similar.  I don't know if I'm wrong about that, but it seems most are in these 2 types of jobs.  The more art/music focused ones seem not to come out or the tunnel easily and drift, whereas the mathematical brain, from what I have seen, seems to return in a number of cases.

Obviously they use different parts of the brain for their work, I wonder if it makes a difference?

It would be interesting to see the data on this.
"And when they ask you about me and you find yourself thinking back on all of our memories,
I hope you ache in regret as the truth hits you like a bullet and you find yourself replying: ""She loved me more than anyone else in the entire world and I tried to destroy her."  He failed by the way. 
http://mlcforum.theherosspouse.com/index.php?topic=8412(Denjef's thread)

Offline serenity

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Re: A New And Different Growing - Where Will It Lead? III
« Reply #75 on: September 06, 2018, 12:09:53 AM »
Hi Anjae

Sorry to hear you’ve had problems with Mr J. It’s upsetting after all this time that the ugly monster can rear its head!

I just wondered if something is not right in his world and he’s taking it out on you or could it be that he’s revisiting the stages? Just a thought really. It’s just so hard to know what goes on in their heads. It will never make sense to us because we are rational and normal. Like you said why would a man that left you still cling onto your belongings?

Hope you’re ok. I did wonder how you were doing as you’d not posted for a while

Hugs

X

Offline Trustandlove

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Re: A New And Different Growing - Where Will It Lead? III
« Reply #76 on: September 06, 2018, 12:17:15 AM »
My own experience is that monster appears when something isn't right in his world, but I don't necessarily think it's about revisiting stages, it's just taking anger out on us.  So something somewhere else is happening that he can't control, so he does this, which I agree is about control. 

My own MLCer flip-flops between being nice and being monster, I now no longer have any contact but the kids hear from him occasionally by text; they don't really want to see him because they also never know if it will be OK or if he will have a go at them for not "accepting" (read:  endorsing) his new life. 

Offline AnjaeTopic starter

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Re: A New And Different Growing - Where Will It Lead? III
« Reply #77 on: September 06, 2018, 04:10:48 PM »
Hi Savoir Faire, Serenity and Trustandlove.


First off, one of the curators managed to talk to Mr J and it went well. However, it is too late for the materials to be sent. The exhibition opens tomorrow late afternoon. I don't know any details of the talk. Maybe tomorrow I will know more, maybe not - it will be a busy day for the curators and also for me. I knew Mr J didn't want to be the bad guy and wouldn't dare to be rude to any of the curators on the phone.

SIL shared the post I had made for the professional Facebook page and share on my personal one. It is an overview of the exhibition, and it says label Z and X that the creators of Y (the former joint project, but no names named) made will be present. That means Mr J will see the post (of course he can see it on my professional page), but it also means SIL is giving a help in the promotion.

Of course it also means it is absolutely impossible for Mr J to try to erase me from his life or to pretend I had no relevance. It is impossible for me to erase him or to pretend he had no relevance, but I don't do that. We created those things together. There is no running from it.

Hope you’re ok. I did wonder how you were doing as you’d not posted for a while

I am OK. I took some time from HS (and other things). Needed time just for myself. Walked a lot, read and stared at the stars for a while.

Monster shows when something is not right in the MLCer life... It makes sense, but what was strange, and similar to right before and after BD, was the change in minutes from nice to monster. And something not right in the wonderful perfect, luxury life with the person he loves the most in the world with whom he had bought a fancy flat with a few months ago? Who would say it...  ::) Phew... MLCers, they are something.  ::)

There are those who are very talented in art and music and the others are in the mathematics stream where they seem to be employed in IT or similar.  I don't know if I'm wrong about that, but it seems most are in these 2 types of jobs.  The more art/music focused ones seem not to come out or the tunnel easily and drift, whereas the mathematical brain, from what I have seen, seems to return in a number of cases.

Interesting, Savy. Mr J has a double brain, so to speak. He was studying to be a civil engineer when we meet, then changed to grafic design. His pre-MLC job involve estimations, budgets, money plans, etc. He is good with math/numbers. He also has a very artistic side. I can understand how the DJ life keeps him trapped in the tunnel. Nightlife, drinking, people all in the same page, etc. Why he remained all these years with OW2 I do not know. After all, in his own words, he does not give a f*** about her - but she is also the person he loves the most in the world. I know, I know, confusing.  ;) ;D ::)

Obviously they use different parts of the brain for their work, I wonder if it makes a difference?

I don't know if it makes a difference. I know that I had to put the neuroscience/neurology courses on hold because focussing on them didn't allow me to be creative. I couldn't pain, write or take photos. My brain also got much, much tired with the courses. And my way of thinking changes/my brain works differently if I jump into those courses. So, there may be a difference.

My brain is neither maths or totally arts/creativeness oriented, I am logical and I can be creative, but, above all, I am pretty good running things, including the creative types, which I did for many years.
Sometimes good things fall apart so better things can fall together. (Marilyn Monroe)

Offline Trustandlove

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Re: A New And Different Growing - Where Will It Lead? III
« Reply #78 on: September 06, 2018, 11:03:19 PM »
Not that it matters, but my MLCer is a very mathematical brain....    and no sign of any analysing whatsoever....

Perhaps there is a distinction between just being good with numbers and doing analysis, I have no idea.  But then again he was never employed on the analytical side of things, more on just being fast with calculations in general. 

I know it means nothing, just couldn't resist jumping in....

Offline Savoir Faire

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Re: A New And Different Growing - Where Will It Lead? III
« Reply #79 on: September 07, 2018, 10:53:48 PM »
Trustandlove, jump in any time you like. It would be interesting to have a list of careers our spouse is working in,  it may shine some light on the type of person who goes in to MLC.

Anjae, I am glad your problems seem to have been sorted.  I have no doubt the horrible discussion with your H lingers for you.  It always does for me.
"And when they ask you about me and you find yourself thinking back on all of our memories,
I hope you ache in regret as the truth hits you like a bullet and you find yourself replying: ""She loved me more than anyone else in the entire world and I tried to destroy her."  He failed by the way. 
http://mlcforum.theherosspouse.com/index.php?topic=8412(Denjef's thread)

Offline AnjaeTopic starter

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Re: A New And Different Growing - Where Will It Lead? III
« Reply #80 on: September 08, 2018, 02:39:54 PM »
Perhaps there is a distinction between just being good with numbers and doing analysis, I have no idea.

There is. Even because doing analysis is not restricted to numbers, think of psychoanalysis (or therapy in general, a person analyses its behaviour).

It would be interesting to have a list of careers our spouse is working in,  it may shine some light on the type of person who goes in to MLC.

It would. But since many MLCers changed carrers during their crisis, or even right before BD, not sure exactly what we would come up with.

I think any type of person can go into MLC providing the right (wrong) circustances exist. And more more and more I am conviced stress that brings depression plays a big part. And that, most likely, there is a lack of minerals and vitamins, especially vitamin D, B12, B6, B9 as well as Magnesium. Those alone, with a some vitamin C do wonders.

What are MLCers are given if they go see a doctor? Usually an SSRI anti-depressant. A SSRI only works if there is lack of serotonine, and even if there is, it doesn't always works. The approach by a doctor to a MLCer is not good. I suspect the same happens with losts of depressed people.

I have no doubt the horrible discussion with your H lingers for you.

Not anymore. I forgot all about it a couple of days ago. It is like either it was a million years ago or never happened. More like it never happened. Weird.

Mr J is not my husband, Savy. Even if we may still be legally married (no idea if we are) he is not my husband. It has been years since I stop seeing him, or thinking of him, as my husband. He is someone with whom, for some reason, over a decade ago, I had a life with.

Most times I don't even recall why I had a life with him. I loved him? Most likely. But I don't even remember it.

I know this sound very, very strange, but it is how it is. And I don't even know why it is so.

The exhibition opening was cool, but so crowded it was impossible to see much, if anything. The President did show, and with him, tons of suits, security, etc. I will go back again when the inicial rush calms down. Spend most of the type outside, in the garden. 
Sometimes good things fall apart so better things can fall together. (Marilyn Monroe)

Offline Savoir Faire

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Re: A New And Different Growing - Where Will It Lead? III
« Reply #81 on: September 09, 2018, 06:26:32 PM »
I'm glad you recovered quickly from the discussion with your H Anjae.  It really doesn't matter if he's a husband or just the guy trying to sell you something over the phone, having discussions with any abusive person upsets all of us for a while.  I was shaken for a couple of days following the real estate agent telling me to "shut up". 

Most of us are not used to being spoken to in this way.
"And when they ask you about me and you find yourself thinking back on all of our memories,
I hope you ache in regret as the truth hits you like a bullet and you find yourself replying: ""She loved me more than anyone else in the entire world and I tried to destroy her."  He failed by the way. 
http://mlcforum.theherosspouse.com/index.php?topic=8412(Denjef's thread)

Offline AnjaeTopic starter

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Re: A New And Different Growing - Where Will It Lead? III
« Reply #82 on: September 11, 2018, 03:38:05 PM »
It really doesn't matter if he's a husband or just the guy trying to sell you something over the phone, having discussions with any abusive person upsets all of us for a while. 

It doesn't, but a husband, or former husband, is, I think, a little worst. And yet, the husband, or former husband, will probably have a more abusive discussion that the guy trying to see something over the phone.

There must be something on the air because Sunday my younger sister monstered. Sometimes she has monstering moments, usually when something is not going well for her.

It was one text and one call and I carried on with my life. Still, not pleasant.

Most of us are not used to being spoken to in this way.

No, we aren't.
Sometimes good things fall apart so better things can fall together. (Marilyn Monroe)

Offline AnjaeTopic starter

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Re: A New And Different Growing - Where Will It Lead? III
« Reply #83 on: September 17, 2018, 04:17:23 PM »
Putting it here from The Eyes Have It thread.

"Currently (there is a batch of new DJ promo photos) Mr J's eyes and face are very, very stange. Not only the eyes still look dead and have narrowed, both the pupils as well as the eye dimension, his right eye is much, much lower than his left eye and almost closed. The eye lid nearly covers all the eye.

And there are huge, saggy, eye bags as well. His face is also asymmetrical, right side much different than the left side, his cheeks look puffy and swallowed at the same time (weird, I know), his hair seems thin. His finger look chubby, they were always slim and he looks like hell, without single sign of happiness.

He looks like someone who has not had any sleep in years, he looks hagard, miserable, hopeless, sad.  For reference, Mr J looks much worse than Ben Affleck."


It is so very strange and sad the way mr J looks. Yet, people still tell him he looks good and handsome. Go figure.

He also seems to be going around in circles. Back to EDM (electronic dance music) that he had mostly left behind. Back to doing remixes that he had lost an interest in. Nothing on the his new record label front. And the whole "I want to keep djying" from his May interview that is the opposite of what he has always said.

Then there is the nice with me, even going back to use my name and wishing me Happy Easter on his twice a years e-mails since 2016, the being scared when I went to say hi in January, but when leaving putting his hand on my shouder saying goodbye and my call to him because of the exhibition two weeks ago.

It started with him not recognising my voice, when I told him who I was he was very nice, soon he turned to monster. The changes were as fast as after BD.

I think something is going on that is different than the long, always alike years of deep in Replay, but not sure what. No matter how many nice, wonderful holidays he has with OW2 he always looks miserable. The new fancy flat also does not seem to have brought any happiness.

In fact, nothing seems to be able to make him look better or happy. Yet, he persist on the Replay lifestyle.

I don't mean I want him back, I mean, for his sake, it would be a good idea if he would stop such life that is only making look worst and worst physically, and I would guess mentally and emotionally.

Mr J is the only person that can put an end to his MLC life, and there has been times when he cut back, but, somehow, he always goes back to more unhapiness.
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Offline Ready2Transform

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Re: A New And Different Growing - Where Will It Lead? III
« Reply #84 on: September 17, 2018, 11:38:56 PM »
Quote
His face is also asymmetrical, right side much different than the left side,

This is xH too! to the point that his glasses actually look crooked in a recent picture, even though they're sitting properly on his face. And in fairness - I have a lazy eye now as well (going to see if glasses help). Had a slight issue with it during my own crisis, but with age it's worsening.
"Unconditional love is the highest of high standards, and while we are letting go of our need to control the process of anyone else, we are taking within our lives complete accountability for our own experience."

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Offline GonerinGhana

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Re: A New And Different Growing - Where Will It Lead? III
« Reply #85 on: September 18, 2018, 12:59:02 AM »
It would be interesting to have a list of careers our spouse is working in,  it may shine some light on the type of person who goes in to MLC.

I have noticed that there seems to be a disproportionate number of LBSes on here that have MLCers who are musicians, even if it is just their side job. I'd say that is the one career that seems to pop up regularly over and over here.

Offline Thunder

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Re: A New And Different Growing - Where Will It Lead? III
« Reply #86 on: September 18, 2018, 05:18:06 AM »
You know what I find interesting is how many LBS's are teachers. 
Quite a few in nursing too.
A quote from a recovered MLCer: 
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Offline AnjaeTopic starter

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Re: A New And Different Growing - Where Will It Lead? III
« Reply #87 on: September 18, 2018, 03:32:05 PM »
This is xH too! to the point that his glasses actually look crooked in a recent picture, even though they're sitting properly on his face. And in fairness - I have a lazy eye now as well (going to see if glasses help). Had a slight issue with it during my own crisis, but with age it's worsening.

Hope your eye gets better. So weird how their faces become the way they do. Mr J's glasses don't sit well on his face. The shape is not even suited for him.

I have noticed that there seems to be a disproportionate number of LBSes on here that have MLCers who are musicians, even if it is just their side job. I'd say that is the one career that seems to pop up regularly over and over here.

Not really. Very few are musicians. There is Ready2's husband who used to be a musician and Nah's husband who has side jobs in bands. Don't recall many more. Mr J is not a musician. He is a DJ. And that is his MLC thing.

Pretty much everyone seems to have a MLCer that is in business, in the military or is a professional. And like Thunder said, teachers, lots of them. Also many in the Military and doctors/in nursing. The arts & culture ones are a minority.

You may be consufing with Nah and I, and at times Ready2, talking a lot about music.
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Offline Ready2Transform

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Re: A New And Different Growing - Where Will It Lead? III
« Reply #88 on: September 18, 2018, 06:00:03 PM »
This is xH too! to the point that his glasses actually look crooked in a recent picture, even though they're sitting properly on his face. And in fairness - I have a lazy eye now as well (going to see if glasses help). Had a slight issue with it during my own crisis, but with age it's worsening.

Hope your eye gets better. So weird how their faces become the way they do. Mr J's glasses don't sit well on his face. The shape is not even suited for him.

I have noticed that there seems to be a disproportionate number of LBSes on here that have MLCers who are musicians, even if it is just their side job. I'd say that is the one career that seems to pop up regularly over and over here.

Not really. Very few are musicians. There is Ready2's husband who used to be a musician and Nah's husband who has side jobs in bands. Don't recall many more. Mr J is not a musician. He is a DJ. And that is his MLC thing.

Pretty much everyone seems to have a MLCer that is in business, in the military or is a professional. And like Thunder said, teachers, lots of them. Also many in the Military and doctors/in nursing. The arts & culture ones are a minority.

You may be consufing with Nah and I, and at times Ready2, talking a lot about music.

And mine would probably be considered more "side job" in music, too. He was only full time in my business for a few years (and the breakdown hit in the midst of that), but before that what we produced together didn't amount to a full time job. He worked in transportation prior to that and I could list about a dozen jobs he's had since, including insurance sales, mechanic, pipe fitter (I think that's what he's doing now), and he went to college for business for a few years with no degree. Oh, and politician! He had also been in the military when he was young.

It used to boggle me that so many couples represented here had twins, but that was only in the first few years. I think it's less common here now. But for awhile it almost seemed like a good third of the site had at least one set! My real life friend's stbx is deeply in crisis and from a family full of twins, including his set, a pair of uncles, and his grandmother. I still wonder if there's a genetic tie, but it's just as likely he falls back in with musicians, since he does that too. ;)
"Unconditional love is the highest of high standards, and while we are letting go of our need to control the process of anyone else, we are taking within our lives complete accountability for our own experience."

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Offline AnjaeTopic starter

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Re: A New And Different Growing - Where Will It Lead? III
« Reply #89 on: September 18, 2018, 06:21:45 PM »
And mine would probably be considered more "side job" in music, too. He was only full time in my business for a few years (and the breakdown hit in the midst of that), but before that what we produced together didn't amount to a full time job.

Mr J and I have had full time jobs/work in the music world/business, arts and culture, but not as musicians.
 
It used to boggle me that so many couples represented here had twins, but that was only in the first few years. I think it's less common here now. But for awhile it almost seemed like a good third of the site had at least one set!

I remember that, but it is not true. Most here do not have twins. And there are even several of us who do not have children. 

quote author=Ready2Transform link=topic=10189.msg688405#msg688405 date=1537318803]
My real life friend's stbx is deeply in crisis and from a family full of twins, including his set, a pair of uncles, and his grandmother. I still wonder if there's a genetic tie, but it's just as likely he falls back in with musicians, since he does that too. ;)
[/quote]

Not sure if it is genetic. Even identical twins can be very different and have very different interests. Maybe more to do with the group of friends? Or with personal tastes.
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Offline GonerinGhana

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Re: A New And Different Growing - Where Will It Lead? III
« Reply #90 on: September 18, 2018, 10:20:39 PM »
WhyUs' wife sung in a band with him. I think NoEx's H does part time gigs as well. Also Turtleduck99's H works part-time in a jazz orchestra. There could be more but those are some more besides the ones mentioned that come to mind.
« Last Edit: September 18, 2018, 10:22:47 PM by GonerinGhana »

Offline AnjaeTopic starter

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Re: A New And Different Growing - Where Will It Lead? III
« Reply #91 on: September 18, 2018, 10:31:20 PM »
Then it makes 5 that are musicians, part time or not.

There are/have been thousands of LBS on HS since it started. 5, or even 10 or 15 that are musicians, is not much. There are many, many more LBS here with MLCers in the Military. At a point, it was one of those HS phases when it seems everyone had a MLCer that was, or had been, in the Military, several of them Marines.

However, the profession is irrelevant. MLCers have all sorts of professions, including the ones I know in real life. I can´t manage to deduct anything about MCL by the MLCer's profession or side job/interest.
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Offline GonerinGhana

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Re: A New And Different Growing - Where Will It Lead? III
« Reply #92 on: September 18, 2018, 10:49:06 PM »
I just did a quick search of posts for the word "musician" and found Stiil Half Full and HeroIAm's Hs are musicians as well. I'm hungry so I can't search any further at the moment.

Offline AnjaeTopic starter

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Re: A New And Different Growing - Where Will It Lead? III
« Reply #93 on: September 19, 2018, 08:36:47 AM »
Goner, it still does not mean a thing. Here spouse has over 4616 members. If there are 46 musicians that will be tiny a bit over 1% of MLCers are musician, even if only musicians as a side job.  Therefore, what matters is their main profession.

WhyUs' wife is a singer, not a musician. Just like Mr J is DJ, not a musician.

Try searching for miltary/marine. Or lawyer. Or doctor. Or teacher. Or any other profession. You will find many of those.

No idea why you are so determined to make MLC be a musicians thing when most of HS do no have musicians. MCL is not a musicians thing.

Also, when seaching for a word you need to make sure you are not just seeing the word, but it is in context.


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Offline Ready2Transform

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Re: A New And Different Growing - Where Will It Lead? III
« Reply #94 on: September 19, 2018, 08:53:46 AM »
I just did a quick search of posts for the word "musician" and found Stiil Half Full and HeroIAm's Hs are musicians as well. I'm hungry so I can't search any further at the moment.

There are a few others, too. I can't remember screennames because they don't post anymore, but they were around. I don't think GG is trying to make this a "musician" thing - different things stick out to different people, and it's always interesting to follow it a bit and see if there's a tie. As creatives (musicians/singers/DJs/actors like Songanddance's H/entertainment in general), there's a certain "fantasy" and "playing a character" element that, to an outsider, may look like these roles aren't in touch with reality. After my own crisis I wondered if I had picked a more structured, traditional career path, if it would have helped. My xH seemed more stable when he had a structure of a job ("seemed" being the operative word!). I don't begrudge any of us for looking at parallels, even if the data we get back doesn't really lead anywhere. The study itself can be interesting, and we've all learned from sharing our thoughts.
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Offline AnjaeTopic starter

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Re: A New And Different Growing - Where Will It Lead? III
« Reply #95 on: September 19, 2018, 09:20:21 AM »
There are a few others, too. I can't remember screennames because they don't post anymore, but they were around. I don't think GG is trying to make this a "musician" thing - different things stick out to different people, and it's always interesting to follow it a bit and see if there's a tie.

I think she is, but maybe not. There is no tie. Even if we had 10%, that is 460 MLCers who are musicians/arts/entertainment, the other 90% Aare not.

To me, what has always stand out was how many were, or had been, in the military, including Stayed's husband (if I recall well, he was no longer in the military when his crisis come) and how many of those in the military were marines.

I see it the other way round, those in the arts & entertainment already have a lot of fantasy and creativity, they would be less likely to fall for something they already have.

After my own crisis I wondered if I had picked a more structured, traditional career path, if it would have helped.

It wouldn't. Mr J had a steady, non arts/entertainment job when his crisis come.

I don't begrudge any of us for looking at parallels, even if the data we get back doesn't really lead anywhere.

Not a question of begrudging, but of lack of logic, data and no matching percentage.

The study itself can be interesting, and we've all learned from sharing our thoughts.

The study would have to be with the main profession, not the side job. Therefore, everyone who is a musician, dj, creative/artists as a side job cannot be incluing as having those for his/her main profession.

To me, the pre-MLC profession is pretty irrelevant. I have seen people with all sorts of professions, here and in real life, having a MLC. 
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Offline GonerinGhana

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Re: A New And Different Growing - Where Will It Lead? III
« Reply #96 on: September 19, 2018, 03:52:48 PM »
I am just stating what I have noticed. My H is a doctor and so I would have noticed if there were a lot of doctors mentioned, and what I see over and over are those involved in music.

As for fantasies and side jobs, I'd say a lot of teenagers dream of being famous musicians, movie stars, sports heroes, but 99.9% are never going to achieve their dream. Playing in a band on weekends in middle-age would be a way for them to live out their childhood fantasies, which could be a sign that they have never outgrown them. It doesn't mean they necessarily are going to become MLCers.

Offline nah

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Re: A New And Different Growing - Where Will It Lead? III
« Reply #97 on: September 19, 2018, 07:12:53 PM »
The Leaver is a musician, as many know I talk about his band exploits all the time.

I do think it's noticeable b/c they might be more apt to use being in a band as a form of replay.

The Leaver quit music in his late twenties b/c in his words it was "time to grow up"

Something else he said that stands out just a few weeks before he left,...

"When I'm on stage, I can pretend I'm someone else"

Maybe that's why it's noticeable on HS.  I don't think The Leaver would have gone back to music if he wasn't in MLC.

HIs tag on his Sugar Daddy profile...

"Executive by day, rock and roll singer by night".
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BD April 6 2013 day after family went out for sons birthday.
I packed his bags two days later...semi-vanisher
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Offline AnjaeTopic starter

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Re: A New And Different Growing - Where Will It Lead? III
« Reply #98 on: September 20, 2018, 05:21:30 PM »
I am just stating what I have noticed.

It is just one of those HS phases/a question of visibility. There was a time when it was MLCers in the military/marines. There was also the teachers one. And so on.

The ones with doctors either no long post, or hardly post. Many HS members don't stay around for long. And several old timers haven't been around much .

As for fantasies and side jobs, I'd say a lot of teenagers dream of being famous musicians, movie stars, sports heroes, but 99.9% are never going to achieve their dream. Playing in a band on weekends in middle-age would be a way for them to live out their childhood fantasies, which could be a sign that they have never outgrown them. It doesn't mean they necessarily are going to become MLCers.

True. It is fine for people to keep the side job or hobby. Agree it does not mean it will lead to MLC. If people like to play music, or to paint, or play sports, why not?

I do think it's noticeable b/c they might be more apt to use being in a band as a form of replay.

In Replay, yes. Others go climb mountains or get into motocycles. Or go have weird drugs experience in Peru.

Something else he said that stands out just a few weeks before he left,...

"When I'm on stage, I can pretend I'm someone else"

Pretending to be someone else is something normal with musicians/singers/actors. For an MLCer, it may be a little different. Or maybe not. It is like shy people who get upon a stage and totally change.

Maybe that's why it's noticeable on HS.  I don't think The Leaver would have gone back to music if he wasn't in MLC.

Mr J would had not be djing if it wasn't for MLC. He briefly tried it when he was young and he didn't like it. He djing a few times in the early 00 to friends and didn't like it and said he did not want to do it again. He refused to DJ at our former joint project parties/lauches.

He said he did not want to be tied behind the dj booth/decks because it prevent him from mingle and dance with me. Also, if he was djing he could not just leave. He had to went to the end of the set and he find it constraining.
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Offline calamity

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Re: A New And Different Growing - Where Will It Lead? III
« Reply #99 on: September 21, 2018, 09:06:00 PM »
We used to have a lot of doctors I thought.  And teachers who were lbs's.  I think the common thing in mlc is that they are humans although Robert Sapolsky says apes have mid-life crises.

Offline xyzcf

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Re: A New And Different Growing - Where Will It Lead? III
« Reply #100 on: September 22, 2018, 10:55:47 AM »
 
Quote
I think the common thing in mlc is that they are humans although Robert Sapolsky says apes have mid-life crises.
You always make me laugh calamity. I am sure you could come up with quite the comedy routine about MLC and take to the road...remember our talk about "what are our dreams? " I would gladly travel with you.  ;D

We have had lawyers, business men in very high positions, mother's, many different occupations. Some have lost their "good" jobs and others have climbed to even higher positions and function superbly in their roles.....so I don't think we should be making "assumptions" about what kind of job our MLC has..one thing that is quite common though from my own observation is that often their affair partner is someone they worked with.
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Offline AnjaeTopic starter

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Re: A New And Different Growing - Where Will It Lead? III
« Reply #101 on: September 22, 2018, 04:44:55 PM »
We used to have a lot of doctors I thought.  And teachers who were lbs's.  I think the common thing in mlc is that they are humans although Robert Sapolsky says apes have mid-life crises.

We share 98.8% DNA with chimps, so...

We have had lawyers, business men in very high positions, mother's, many different occupations. Some have lost their "good" jobs and others have climbed to even higher positions and function superbly in their roles.....so I don't think we should be making "assumptions" about what kind of job our MLC has..one thing that is quite common though from my own observation is that often their affair partner is someone they worked with.

True, we have had, and still have, all sorts of professions. And it is also true some MLCer do very well on their MLC job, of if they kept the pre-MLC on that job.

As for affair partners being someone they work with. For several it does seem to be the thing. For others it is the sweetheart from the past. To others a new total stanger. And to others a relative or friend of the spouse, a neighbour, or someone else.
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Offline AnjaeTopic starter

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Re: A New And Different Growing - Where Will It Lead? III
« Reply #102 on: October 29, 2018, 05:21:46 PM »
Small update, more to keep documenting than anything else.

BD 12th anniversary = Mr J leaving come and went two weeks ago. I didn't notice it. The date falls between two family birthdays which were the important things of that week. BD was so long ago it no longer means much, if anything.

My dad's 12th annoversary death come and went one week ago - dad died a few days after Mr J left. Didn't felt anything special. The date also fall right before a family birthday, and the birthday was the important thing.

I have went back to the things I loved since I am a kid, reading, watching movies/TV series, being outdoors, going to art exhibitions, etc. And to newer, but already of several years, things like photography and painting. Also getting back a little to History/History of Art.

Neuroscience courses were set aside. They were hindering my creativeness - the part(s) of the brain they require is different than the one(s) used in creative endeavours. I also though that, at least for now, I already know wnough for a lay person. Time to live life instead of study it. 

But for the maid coming a couple of hours once or twice a week I have been alone for three months (the maid didn't come in August, so it was just me). I had been alone a few weeks in June/July as well.

I like it. It is peaceful. I have the flat and the terrace all for myself. There aren't the petty silly argument my aunt and her boyfriend have at absurd hours for absurd reasons. Nor the tense energy of when the two fo them are around. It is just my aunt it is different, the energy is smoother.

At this point I would find it interesting to have a boyfriend, but I still don't go out of my way to get one.
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Offline Savoir Faire

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Re: A New And Different Growing - Where Will It Lead? III
« Reply #103 on: October 29, 2018, 07:14:57 PM »
Hi Anjae,

Maybe it's time to reach out to see what good men are out there.  We are all afraid of the dating game,  most of us are definitely out of practice and feel intimidated, I know i do ::)

Might be nice to have a casual date or two just to see what it feels like.  We may even like it and wonder why we waited so long.
"And when they ask you about me and you find yourself thinking back on all of our memories,
I hope you ache in regret as the truth hits you like a bullet and you find yourself replying: ""She loved me more than anyone else in the entire world and I tried to destroy her."  He failed by the way. 
http://mlcforum.theherosspouse.com/index.php?topic=8412(Denjef's thread)

Offline AnjaeTopic starter

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Re: A New And Different Growing - Where Will It Lead? III
« Reply #104 on: October 29, 2018, 08:30:45 PM »
Hi Savy,

Might be nice to have a casual date or two just to see what it feels like.  We may even like it and wonder why we waited so long.

Been there, done that. Remember I had dated and had a boyfriend in the past. 

My experience of men, and I know tons of them, many more than women, is that guys my age or around it are either married, having a MLC, full of issues, not that interesting, scared to death of intimacy, never been married/never had a long term relationship. The ones after a serious relationship tend to also be after having children therefore going for younger women.

Guys a bit younger are interesting and most of the ones I went out in the past were younger. My boyfriend was a 4 years old than myself. It was OK, but it was not meant to last. I wouldn't mind a man a little younger. They are more open, match my way of being way better and see things differently the the ones my age or a little older. Of course I am generalizing.

The reason why I didn't date more had nothing to do with Mr J. It had to do with looking after grandmother and after she died needing space just to myself.

I don't feel one bit intimidated, but men seem to. Who needs a grown up man who is into you just to pull back because he is intimidated/has intimacy issues? I did a little dating this year and it was pretty much like that. Guys were my age or a little older. Nope, no time or patience for that.

To be fair, I didn't knew those guys existed in real life. Nice informal dinners, going to a couple of social events, all nice and gentlemanly, than, it is not you it is me.  :o ::) They are very nice guys, but clearly they are not ready for whatever reason.

I want someone who is light, fun, but also capable of something serious and who does not play high school games I don't even know how to play. The hot and cold thing that many women seem to like does no work with me. You do it to me, I am done. No point trying again with the hot. The silly chasing does not work with me either. Nor the being Mr distant. Meaning, I put an end on things without second thoughts.

No resentment, no hard feelings, it was fun, but it just isn't going anywhere and I don't waste time with "talks", apologies, etc. It is not a marriage. So, not I am not looking foward for more of that. For fun I go out to dance or concerts with friends.

The truth is most people (men or women) are not on the same level of growth as a LBS. I am also picky, don't stant a jealous or possesive guy and I am used to have me time and my own space.

Guess who, in his real version, was a great match for me .... Mr J. Never blew hot and cold, was not afraid of intimacy, didn't felt intimidated, we sharesd similar interests, he was not jealous or possessive. But he is not who he was.

Don't worry, I am certain the right guy is out there and in time he will show up.  :)

Sometimes good things fall apart so better things can fall together. (Marilyn Monroe)

Offline Savoir Faire

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Re: A New And Different Growing - Where Will It Lead? III
« Reply #105 on: October 29, 2018, 10:04:18 PM »
I'm sure he will turn up when you least expect it.
"And when they ask you about me and you find yourself thinking back on all of our memories,
I hope you ache in regret as the truth hits you like a bullet and you find yourself replying: ""She loved me more than anyone else in the entire world and I tried to destroy her."  He failed by the way. 
http://mlcforum.theherosspouse.com/index.php?topic=8412(Denjef's thread)

Offline Thunder

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Re: A New And Different Growing - Where Will It Lead? III
« Reply #106 on: October 30, 2018, 06:14:26 AM »
You know Anjae, I really believe the longer you are on your own you start to enjoy the peace of living alone.

Yes a relationship is nice.  Sharing your day with them, your idea's and concerns.  Laughing together, intimacy.  All of that is good, but if you have to give up part of yourself in order to have that it's not worth it.

I think a lot of women give up part of who they are when they get married, or get into a relationship.  Some not much, but others give up a lot.

You seem to know exactly what you want and don't want in a man.
I bet there is someone out there right now looking for the same things.  It's just a matter of crossing paths.

Look at Nah.  She gave up on men and just happen to cross paths with E.  The magic happened.

It will for you too.  If not you'll be just fine by yourself.
A quote from a recovered MLCer: 
"From my experience if my H had let me go a long time ago, and stop pressuring me, begging, and pleading and just let go I possibly would have experienced my awakening sooner than I did."

Offline AnjaeTopic starter

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Re: A New And Different Growing - Where Will It Lead? III
« Reply #107 on: October 30, 2018, 03:24:47 PM »
Agree, it will happen. When it happens. I didn't gave up on men. Just like my teenage self I am not looking for one. Mr J still happened when I was 18.

Right now I am more focussed on professional contacts/connections/relationships and in establish new professional partnerships. But my heart is open and so is my mind.
Sometimes good things fall apart so better things can fall together. (Marilyn Monroe)

Offline Thunder

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Re: A New And Different Growing - Where Will It Lead? III
« Reply #108 on: October 31, 2018, 06:20:51 AM »
That's good to hear.

Usually when women give up on men/love it's out of bitterness or frustration.

You sound like you're in a healthy mindset. 
A quote from a recovered MLCer: 
"From my experience if my H had let me go a long time ago, and stop pressuring me, begging, and pleading and just let go I possibly would have experienced my awakening sooner than I did."

Offline Acorn

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Re: A New And Different Growing - Where Will It Lead? III
« Reply #109 on: October 31, 2018, 07:06:31 AM »
Quote
Time to live life instead of study it.   

This is such an important point for LBS.  You are referring to your study of neuroscience.  If I may, I would like to apply it to LBS’s tendency to study MLC and stages, etc. at great length and in microscopic detail.  Rinse and repeat.  Trying to locate similar stories and bend it this way and that to fit our own stories and postulate the outcome.  The quicker we get to ‘live’ what we have learned instead of getting our noses stuck in all the info, the better we will feel.  Maybe I was wrong to say ‘we’, ‘our’.  I guess I’m talking about myself!  Yep, definitely go live life instead of studying it.  My IC had to say to me ‘Just live.  Quit thinking so much.’
Feb 2015: H has a Nuclear meltdown.  A tear-fest.  The next morning arctic cold descends.
Oct 2015: ILYBIANILWY
Apr 2016: Affair discovered
Still home

Offline AnjaeTopic starter

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Re: A New And Different Growing - Where Will It Lead? III
« Reply #110 on: October 31, 2018, 10:33:41 AM »
Thunder, if there is one thing I doubt I will ever do is to give up on men.  Bitterness does not suit me. It is exhuasting and a downer.

If I wanted, I could date. I am just not interested in what, so far, dating has to offer. It would be silly to be frustrated when there is no shortage of men to date. They just happen not to be what I want.

Acorn, you have a point. A very good one. However, if no one focussed on MLC and its stages, HS would not exist. Same for HB's site. As well for all of us who gained knowledge of MLC. IMO, what tends to happen is that, at a point, some of us see MLC as a study subject, rather than our personal situation.

Also, it is very easy for me to speak because it has been 12 years since Mr J left. Things are quite different early on. It is normal for LBS to be a bit too eager to know all those things you mention.

But what I also see is that many, if not most, on HS end up living. Each at their own pace and according to what living means to them personally.

We have our good old GAL (Get a Life). It hasn't been mentioned much of late, but it is one of HS pillars. GTL does not mean changing everything, have a new relationship, or do anything drastic. I can be as simple and calm as reading a book, cooking, walking, meditate, staring at the stars, a hot bath, etc. GAL is whatever each LBS enjoys and does for her/his self.
 
Sometimes good things fall apart so better things can fall together. (Marilyn Monroe)

Offline Acorn

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Re: A New And Different Growing - Where Will It Lead? III
« Reply #111 on: October 31, 2018, 11:45:43 AM »
However, if no one focussed on MLC and its stages, HS would not exist. Same for HB's site. As well for all of us who gained knowledge of MLC. IMO, what tends to happen is that, at a point, some of us see MLC as a study subject, rather than our personal situation.

Also, it is very easy for me to speak because it has been 12 years since Mr J left. Things are quite different early on. It is normal for LBS to be a bit too eager to know all those things you mention.

O yes, I’m grateful that a few have gone to study MLC and were willing to share their knowledge with us.  Otherwise, how would we know and where would we be?!  As you have alluded, I was speaking from the perspective of LBSs who are still in the thick of things, myself included.  Who knows? I may be in your position after many years have passed and will be able to discuss MLC as merely a psychological curiosity. 

« Last Edit: October 31, 2018, 11:49:05 AM by Acorn »
Feb 2015: H has a Nuclear meltdown.  A tear-fest.  The next morning arctic cold descends.
Oct 2015: ILYBIANILWY
Apr 2016: Affair discovered
Still home

Offline AnjaeTopic starter

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Re: A New And Different Growing - Where Will It Lead? III
« Reply #112 on: November 12, 2018, 10:04:44 PM »
Posting my reply to OffRoad from Busy_Bee 's thread to here.

If one considers MLC a chemical imbalance or neurological issue, or even something physiologically related, then it could be possible to heal and change.

I see MLC as a result of stress and depression, therefore a neurobiological issue. I also believe MLCers change and heal. But that does not answer how they can go back to say they love the LBS and have loved the LBS during their crisis.

The problem is that MLCers do not have amnesia and they didn't stop knowing how to love. In fact, pretty much every single out of crisis MLCer who has had OW/OM says they never stop loving the LBS.

They also had no problem knowing how to love OW/OM.

So, why do we fall for their silly claim that, while leading a life, often for many years, with someone else while treating us like crap (they know very well we are, they haven't forgot us), they have never stop loving us? Of course they haven't love us while deep in crisis.

Once out of crisis they all of a sudden find out they have loved us during those I don't know how many years deep in MLC? Most LBS seem to be fine with it and like to hear it and believe it. I am neither fine with, like it or believe it. 

Words and "I love you" will not convince me. I am not certain even actions would convince me. Mr J did everything for OW1 and OW2 while not caring for me.

His actions also mean nothing since he was/is full of actions and generosity towards those women. What exactly could he do that would make be believe he loves me? Nothing I can think of, with maybe the exception of putting all the money he owns me on my bank account. But I would see that as him feeling guity and wanting to make amends/ease his guilt.

I do remember how it was to be loved by Mr J. I know what loving couples do for each other/how they baheve. I also know how real, non romantic, love is, I had it for grandmother. None of those types of love resemble the supposed love MLCers have for us while in crisis. 

And what is worst is that many MLCers also don't care about their kids. Then, they love the kids again. Loving the kids again is easier to understand. It is not romamtic/couple's love. Still ...

Offroad, why would you believe your husband if he said he had always loved you while in crisis and, when  our of Replay, said  that he still loved you?
Sometimes good things fall apart so better things can fall together. (Marilyn Monroe)

Offline Nerissa

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Re: A New And Different Growing - Where Will It Lead? III
« Reply #113 on: November 13, 2018, 02:17:36 AM »
[I will be honest, I find it very hard to believe that MLCers love us once out of the fog. It does not make any sense to do all they do and still love us - I see it more as they don't love us while in the fog - then, one day, after a ton of damage and even nasty things, fog is gone and "I love you". In my book, you don't, but what do I know.
/b]

I tend  to agree.  I think the new life is not always what they hoped and they re assess the old one.  I suppose that doesn’t necessarily mean it isn’t love - after all what is love after many years? It’s quite legitimate that it might become familial and comfortable and if someone is inclined towards selfishness, then their behaviour is not unfamiliar, even if it’s worse than previously

 Some crises are less damaging than others too.  The bottom line is that for a time, they felt there was something better out there and gave it a try.

It doesn’t mean things can’t be repaired but I don’t think too many excuses about fog etc should be issued to someone who is indulging him or herself.  I believe in depression and stress and in the addictive nature of affairs and that limerance can consume a person, but they still have their cognitive faculties: they can see the suffering of their children and spouse.

Like you Anjae, I can remember the good times and how they felt.  And over the past two years I have spent a lot of time with friends and their husbands.  I realise it has been some time since my H treated me as Inshoukd have been treated, even when I felt things were ok.

« Last Edit: November 13, 2018, 02:19:42 AM by Nerissa »

Offline AnjaeTopic starter

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Re: A New And Different Growing - Where Will It Lead? III
« Reply #114 on: November 13, 2018, 02:43:47 AM »
It was "once inside the fog" not "out of the fog". They don't love us inside the fog. And I don't think it makes much sense for them to say they did love us while in the fog. Or to come out of it and, out of the blue say "I love you and never stop loving you".


I only know what love after many years was for Mr J and I. A joy, always fresh, still full of passion. Of course in twenty years there were quieter periods.

I believe in depression and stress and know first hand what they can do. I do not believe limerance can last a decade or nearly a decade. At most, it can last some 36 months, since it is pretty much the same as infatuation.

The addiction of affairs does not apply to relatioships that are in the open. There is no more secrecy.

They may re-assess the old life, but they seldon leave OW/OM quickly. And the ones that do tend to find a second, third, etc. Their new life can be terrible, they still stuck to it.

Yes, they thought that there was something better out there. Or they think there is. Yet, we become so happy when those people who went after something better, and did not find it, want to return to us. Why do we get happy being second, or third choice? No idea.

I understand how we all feel at BD and early on, but, years down the road it is "mate, you went after your dream and the woman of your life. you left for that. now, sorry, no can do."

Most couples we knew weren't as kind and into each other as we were. Can't say I find most married couples I know interesting or that I would want their marriages. I had a marriage with an equal with a lot of freedom, most people don't have that.
Sometimes good things fall apart so better things can fall together. (Marilyn Monroe)

Online Treasur

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Re: A New And Different Growing - Where Will It Lead? III
« Reply #115 on: November 13, 2018, 04:44:18 AM »
I agree. I don't think they love us 'in the tunnel'. Maybe they sometimes miss what we represent or a possession sometimes but not love. Or they miss who they used to be with us.  I suspect most of the time they don't think of us at all. Love doesn't look like that. Sometimes perhaps they say the words for other reasons?

 And as Anjae said, I can still just about remember what my h was like loving me and it was a thing of joy mostly, really rather fun, full of talk and a really deep mutual liking for each other. But that was a different kind of man then. He changed; I didn't...or not for a long time post-bd

It is as much a mystery to me how some wake up and feel that love again as it was that it got switched off so thoroughly in the first place.
T: 18  M: 12 (at BD)
No kids.
BD Oct 15. OW since Apr 16?
H filed Jan 17. Divorced April 18. XH married ow 6 weeks later.

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"Option A is not available so I need to kick the s**t out of Option B" Sheryl Sandberg

Offline AnjaeTopic starter

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Re: A New And Different Growing - Where Will It Lead? III
« Reply #116 on: November 13, 2018, 05:03:40 AM »
I think they think of us. At times more, at times less, but they do. And clingers who are always around/in contact always have us in their minds.

Think and love are different things. Miss is also different form love. They may have moments when they love us, but those soon fade. Overhaul, they do not love us while in the tunnel.

Say the "I love you"? I was talking of when they say it after Replay/MLC. When after Replay they say that they have always loved us and still love us. Not when they say "I love you" during Replay.

During Replay, if they say it, I think they mean it. Do they feel it? I don't know. In Replay they tend to say "I don't love you more" than "I love you".

Their love was not switched off at once. It seems that way to us, but it took them a long time. At the start of Replay it is still there, sort of hidden and changed into anger or something of the sort. But it is there. As they go deeper into Replay, it fades more and more.

It could be said, like OffRoad said, that after Replay/crisis their love returns. It may be. But it was not there for a very long time.

And what do we want with people who behaved like MLCers did?

I have been re-reading HB's site articles. She is all about how the MLCer will be balanced after the crisis, how they will be emotionally mature, much better than they were and that is the crisis is for.

Really? We, and them, have to endure this insanity so that someone can become more balanced, matured, etc? If that is so, I prefer a less balanced and mature person.

What is the point of a very kind, balanced, matured, caring person that to get there needed to cause such damage, hurt and pain? The new person may be amazing, but we know what they did to get there. At leas, I do.


For me, there is another issue. Lets pretend Mr J comes out of Replay/crisis and I am fine with him. There would still be the matter of him only being a better version than his old self. And that means the same person he was, sames likes, etc. I don't want that. I have nothing to learn with Mr J and he will not be a source of growth.

When I speak of nothing to learn I speak both practical things - what is he going to teach me, djing? remixes? radio show? I can do all those if I want to - as well as emotional things. MLC or no MLC, he is a baby compared to me. Out of crisis he will be is 36 years old self improved. I don't want that.

I want someone different, someone that can show me new interesting things, someone with different views on life. Someone who is not a wife abuser.   

I'll take someone who is fun, caring, interesting, kind, intelligent, sensitive. adaptable, curious. I know an example of the type of man I would like. No, not saying said man will be the man, just that he is what I want/like.
Sometimes good things fall apart so better things can fall together. (Marilyn Monroe)

 

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