Author Topic: My Story  A New And Different Growing - Where Will It Lead? III  (Read 3210 times)

Offline Savoir Faire

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My Story Re: A New And Different Growing - Where Will It Lead? III
« Reply #20 on: June 07, 2018, 04:45:51 AM »
The strong belief we have that it is not possible for many of our spouses to actually stay in crisis forever, is what keeps us here I suppose.  There is always hope.

When I saw my xH the other day after two years of NC due to his madness, all the things I 'thought' were happening to him, actually are.  He is a total wreck and not a man who left for greener pastures.

This dis-ease is so different to anything else in our society.  It's such a blessing to have this place to come and talk with people who understand why we hope for resolution of the crisis even if we finally don't wish to reconcile.

After five years, I still hope for him to get through this but it's so hard when I see he's done nothing to get through this.  I suppose they don't until they actually wake up.  Wish I knew the catalyst for that.

I do hope you get some answers one day Anjae, not ever having been told they are sorry for all the damage and hurt is forever difficult.  Peri-menopause can't be helping that :'(
"And when they ask you about me and you find yourself thinking back on all of our memories,
I hope you ache in regret as the truth hits you like a bullet and you find yourself replying: ""She loved me more than anyone else in the entire world and I tried to destroy her."  He failed by the way. 
http://mlcforum.theherosspouse.com/index.php?topic=8412(Denjef's thread)

Offline AnjaeTopic starter

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Re: A New And Different Growing - Where Will It Lead? III
« Reply #21 on: June 07, 2018, 06:23:41 PM »
Hi, FaithWalker.

You're welcome.  :)

The strong belief we have that it is not possible for many of our spouses to actually stay in crisis forever, is what keeps us here I suppose.  There is always hope.

Most of them will come out of crisis. When, no one knows.

What we think it is going on with them, aside from the LBS who still thinks the MLCer is happy, tends to be true.

This dis-ease is so different to anything else in our society.  It's such a blessing to have this place to come and talk with people who understand why we hope for resolution of the crisis even if we finally don't wish to reconcile.

It is so very different, and yet so common. I know more and more people in RL having a MLC. Some of them single people. Of course, I am not going to say a thing to them. No point.

After five years, I still hope for him to get through this but it's so hard when I see he's done nothing to get through this.  I suppose they don't until they actually wake up.  Wish I knew the catalyst for that.

No, they don't until they wake up. Don't think there is a catalyst for that. Everything we think will be the thing, is not.

I do hope you get some answers one day Anjae, not ever having been told they are sorry for all the damage and hurt is forever difficult. 

I don't need answers. I know them. MLC is self-explanatory and I don't think Mr. J would have any answers (I would probably had to explain to him what happned and why). What I need are actions. Mr. J told me he was sorry fo all he has done a few times. Then, carried on doing more damage.  When his actions start to change and keep consistent that will be what matters.

Peri-menopause can't be helping that :'(

The peri-menopause does no help at all.
Sometimes good things fall apart so better things can fall together. (Marilyn Monroe)

Offline AnjaeTopic starter

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Re: A New And Different Growing - Where Will It Lead? III
« Reply #22 on: June 08, 2018, 02:53:20 PM »
A glimpse of MLC (or life crisis, or bumpy midlife transition) from a single person.

There is someone I know, a man, who has spend the last couple years moaning how Facebook how he does not have a girfrends, how his relationships don't make sense, first one was 14 years, second one an years, third one 6 months, and how it should had been the other way round.

He was becominh very, very annoying, with all the poor me stuff. Fast foward. He is now engaged and is going to be married after been dating someone for two weeks. He says that, for him two minutes is enough to know he truly love someone and the person is the one.

Back in 2013 a male friend did the same, speed relationship, moved in with the woman, was going to get married, she was the one.
 They soon broke and the marriage never happened.

Don't know if this other guy will marry, but if he will, it will be a disaster. Will be looking to see how it goes.

As for only needing a couple of minutes to know we love someone, I think it is called infatuation and/or atraction. I can be infatuated pretty fast, and has happened a ton of times since BD, but a) it does not mean I will tell the person; b) it does not mean it is love (it will not last, it just tends to be a nice flavour of the month).

Sometimes good things fall apart so better things can fall together. (Marilyn Monroe)

Offline Savoir Faire

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Re: A New And Different Growing - Where Will It Lead? III
« Reply #23 on: June 11, 2018, 10:00:10 PM »
There are so many MLCers out there!!  It's a wonder there isn't more written about it.

I have a girlfriend who is acting a little irrationally at the moment and she asked if I thought she was having a MLC?  I told her if she was asking, it was probably a transition rather than a MLC as her actions are not crazy enough for a crisis.

She is doing some crazy running but not to another man, just from herself.  Difference is, she's learning from it, not blaming everyone for her troubles.
"And when they ask you about me and you find yourself thinking back on all of our memories,
I hope you ache in regret as the truth hits you like a bullet and you find yourself replying: ""She loved me more than anyone else in the entire world and I tried to destroy her."  He failed by the way. 
http://mlcforum.theherosspouse.com/index.php?topic=8412(Denjef's thread)

Offline AnjaeTopic starter

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Re: A New And Different Growing - Where Will It Lead? III
« Reply #24 on: June 12, 2018, 04:47:59 PM »
There are so many MLCers out there!!  It's a wonder there isn't more written about it.

There is a lot written about MCL. A google search will show tons of stuff. The problem is what many call MLC, and write about, is midlife transition.

Your friends does sound like she is having a little bumpy midlife transitions, or maybe a very mild MLC. Or a MLC for pretty much everyone, but HS members. What the general world tends to call/label MLC is a midlife transition.


This guy is (was) single. At least he hadn't left anyone/a marriage. He is not the only guy I know who did this crazy thing of, all of a sudden, become engaged in a couple of weeks. In 2013, a single friend of mine who is also having a MLC (still in crisis now, but calmer), did the same. After jumping from woman to woman, always thinking each of them was the one, he got a girfriend and announced he would be married by early 2014. The relationship soon end and the marriage never happened.

Both this guys are having mild crisis. The one who was going to get married in early 2014 not only kept his pre-MLC job, finished his Masters, but got a grant to research his study subject in a prestigious European Museum. He is very respected in his field, as is research is unique.

The one who just got engaged is an artist, no lifestyle change that I can see. Just the crazy need of finding a woman. The woman, from at I get to see on Facebook, is a beauty, but, in every photo, is drinking. A party girl with a good job (for some reason, Lisboa and Porto don't seem to be short on women with good jobs that are also party girls. I am not talking of young women, but of women in their 30s to their 60s).

I think the guy who got engaged may be having more of midlife transition, but, who knows.

None of these two guys were running from anyone, since they were single. In fact, and strange it may seem, what they want it to run to someone.

In a way, our MLCers also want to run to someone. They run from us towards OW/OM.

I think it is important to document MLC, or bumpy midlife transitions we see in real life, including single/long divorced/widowed people crisis. As we often say, MLC is not a marital issue.


A little different matter (but not really). Doing the Medical Neuroscience course, one thing was bugging me. Something I recalled from another course, choice. The Professor from Synapses, Neurons and Brains course does not believe we have a choice. From what I can recall, nor does Robert Sapolsky.

We often say MLCers (or alcoholics, or addicts or any other kind) have a choice. I wanted to know more about it, so I find a Neuroeconomics course on Coursera. Neuroeconomics deals with choice.

So far, choice in the Neuroeconomics course is more in line with what I personally think. Choice is dependant of certain conditions/state of certain parts of the brain at any givem moment. If thing Z is altered, or thing W, choice is dependant of those changes. The matter is pretty complex, but, in short, in the messy, altered state a MLCer, or an addict, or a depressed person is that choice is conditioned by those very circunstances.

If MLCers would calm down, rather than run, they would had a much better chance of making good choices. However, the process that come with the crisis, especially the ones presents at Replay, don't seem to allow for it.

More food for thought.

Sometimes good things fall apart so better things can fall together. (Marilyn Monroe)

Online RedStar

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Re: A New And Different Growing - Where Will It Lead? III
« Reply #25 on: June 12, 2018, 04:59:16 PM »
So far, choice in the Neuroeconomics course is more in line with what I personally think. Choice is dependant of certain conditions/state of certain parts of the brain at any givem moment. If thing Z is altered, or thing W, choice is dependant of those changes. The matter is pretty complex, but, in short, in the messy, altered state a MLCer, or an addict, or a depressed person is that choice is conditioned by those very circunstances.

If MLCers would calm down, rather than run, they would had a much better chance of making good choices. However, the process that come with the crisis, especially the ones presents at Replay, don't seem to allow for it.

Anjae, I haven't taken any courses on neuro subjects lately, but I think I might think of this similarly? I have thought of MLC as a case of the mind regressing to its pre-25-year-old state. That's the age I've heard as the point before which one's brain has not fully developed into its adult version.

So, I feel like our MLCers have gone back to teenage abilities to judge and make choices. The depression and addiction may be linked to the chemical processes that go on in them to deaden the higher-level judgment functions and emotional maturity--so they are only capable of sex and addictive teenage puppy love, not the real love they had with their spouse; that has gone into hiding. It's just so odd.
« Last Edit: June 12, 2018, 05:02:07 PM by RedStar »

Offline AnjaeTopic starter

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Re: A New And Different Growing - Where Will It Lead? III
« Reply #26 on: June 12, 2018, 06:25:11 PM »
Hi Red Star.

I have thought of MLC as a case of the mind regressing to its pre-25-year-old state. That's the age I've heard as the point before which one's brain has not fully developed into its adult version.

Yes, it is thought that the brain is only fully formed at 25. However, at 25 Mr. J was nothing like his MCL self. His 17 years old self, when we start dating, was nothing like is MLC self (if he was, I would have never dated him). He was a very capable young man. I have no idea from where has the MLC version come from.

Also, many people, especially in the past, had been married for years at 25, had children, lead very non-MLC lives. The pre-25 years old brain alone (or has a whole) cannot be the (only?) explanation. Or, at least, it cannot for some, since it would depend how a person was before.

The depression and addiction may be linked to the chemical processes that go on in them to deaden the higher-level judgment functions and emotional maturity--

They may. But I think it is more than a chemical processes. There are electrical and mechanical processes as well that get affected/changed. The electical part of the brain plays a big role in everything brain connected. After all, neurons and their firing is an electrical process. If neurons don't fire, the brain will not work as it should (or at all). Neurons also exist in the spinal cord and gastrointestinal tract. Therefore, the mess is far bigger than just chemical and just the brain itself, since it spreads to the whole of the nervous system, etc. (and not just because of neurons).

so they are only capable of sex and addictive teenage puppy love, not the real love they had with their spouse; that has gone into hiding. It's just so odd.

With Mr. J, and other real life MLCers I know, it is more the teenage puppy love than sex. They are after the super romantic, super saccharine stuff. A few just want a different woman/man every night/weekend/week/month, but most what to find their "soul mate". Or think they have found it in OW/OM.

In the Neuroeconomics course, so far, the insula of the dorsolateral prefrontal cortex (or insula or dlPFC) had been talked as pertaining to choice decision. For example, its state may dictate if a person will, or will not, take an unfair financial offer. Transcranial magnetic stimulation of the dorsolateral prefrontal cortex will make the possibilities of accepting an unfair financial offer higher.

Other things, not from this course, but that have, over time, been talked about here on HS, mostly, in our Neuroscience threads. The higher the adrenaline, the riskier/crazier the chances taken. Think about Wall Street. Brokers will bet tons and tons of money, adrenaline running very high. Make brokers make more money early on, but female ones, a little more averse to risk, end up making more in the long run. The excessive adrenaline tends to blind male brokers to a truly risky play, resulting in a gigantic money loss.

The high of adrenaline is addictive. It also causes euphoria and a type of fog, making people think they are invincible.

Another example could be chasing the dragon. At first, the high is fantastic. Then, when the effect starts to go away, everything turns into a mess, the person panics, the dream world is gone (or starting to disappear), you need more of the drug to obtain the same effect = you're addicted = vicous circle. 

MLCers do that to raise (have a high level of) whatever it is they need to raise in order not to fell rock bottom. More and more is needed to obtain the same effect. Until the day they crash.

I can use myself as an example. After BD, in my going out and about days drinking more than I should, was I making a choice or was I being driven by the process that resulted from the existing emotions and conditions? The second, I think. Once I start to calm down (because I became exhausted and had aches all over my body), the need for the going out and about drinking more than I should start to go away.

At the time, I didn't even knew that what I was doing was both trying to mute the pain and getting some high because of the situational depression. I was just doing it, no thought involved.

But I do recall that, at a point in 2008, May or June, I think, I decided I would start to cut down and, in time, it would end. Don't exactly recall why I decided it, but I know I did. However, it didn't all end all of a sudden. Also, for me, I was lucky in one way, grandmother start to need help by August 2008, and I started to look after her until she died December 2016. At first, she didn't need as much help/taking care of, so I could still go out and be a little silly, then it become harder and harder and she needed to be cared for fully.

Unlike Robert Sapolsky I don't have certainties about several things, and, the more I learn about the brain and everything connected to it, the less am certain about some things. On the other hand, I becoem more certain of a few, like MLC not being a normal state of mind.

Sapolsky has a very interesting book about stress, Why Zebras Don't Get Ulcers. The reson being Zebras only live in the present. They don't mull over the past nor worry about the future. They have no emotional stress (one of the things that affects LBS and MLCers). Zebras have physical stress, for example, when they have to run from a predator, but that is it.

They will either escape, and no longer think about it or fear tomorrow it may happen again, or die/get eaten (there is a third option, bit I don't remember seeing it in the book, the Zebra is injuried and doesn't get eaten/dies right away. I think that would case some stress, but, again, the only options would be, the Zebra makes it and will no longer think about it, or dies.) 

Kikki, where are you? Would like to know your views on the choice matter.
Sometimes good things fall apart so better things can fall together. (Marilyn Monroe)

Online RedStar

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Re: A New And Different Growing - Where Will It Lead? III
« Reply #27 on: June 12, 2018, 06:50:54 PM »
Hi Red Star.

I have thought of MLC as a case of the mind regressing to its pre-25-year-old state. That's the age I've heard as the point before which one's brain has not fully developed into its adult version.

Yes, it is thought that the brain is only fully formed at 25. However, at 25 Mr. J was nothing like his MCL self. His 17 years old self, when we start dating, was nothing like is MLC self (if he was, I would have never dated him). He was a very capable young man. I have no idea from where has the MLC version come from.

Also, many people, especially in the past, had been married for years at 25, had children, lead very non-MLC lives. The pre-25 years old brain alone (or has a whole) cannot be the (only?) explanation. Or, at least, it cannot for some, since it would depend how a person was before.

I'm sure it's different for everyone. I didn't know my MLCer at 17, but at 25, yes. And at 25, he was more mature in many ways than he's being now. I couldn't say it depended on how a person was before, because these aren't real teens. They are a blend of their current experiences (mine's over 40 now), including the usually long-term marriage experience, but with the higher judgment functions seemingly cut back. Plus they regress to childhood stages they haven't resolved.

My main point is that the mature brain functions seem to be canceled out for a while and they go to somewhere before the adult brain age of 25 and just can't access the maturity that they previously could.

The depression and addiction may be linked to the chemical processes that go on in them to deaden the higher-level judgment functions and emotional maturity--

Quote
They may. But I think it is more than a chemical processes.

Sure. I used that as a shorthand because those directly affect a lot of the mental state.

so they are only capable of sex and addictive teenage puppy love, not the real love they had with their spouse; that has gone into hiding. It's just so odd.

Quote
With Mr. J, and other real life MLCers I know, it is more the teenage puppy love than sex. They are after the super romantic, super saccharine stuff. A few just want a different woman/man every night/weekend/week/month, but most what to find their "soul mate". Or think they have found it in OW/OM.

Yes, sure. I'm referring to the layers of the brain where they can do the emotions of the lizard (cerebellum/sex) and the puppy (limbic/puppy love) but the human (neocortex/real love) is less accessible to them. Just like where teenagers are.

Quote
The high of adrenaline is addictive. It also causes euphoria and a type of fog, making people think they are invincible.

Another example could be chasing the dragon. At first, the high is fantastic. Then, when the effect starts to go away, everything turns into a mess, the person panics, the dream world is gone (or starting to disappear), you need more of the drug to obtain the same effect = you're addicted = vicous circle. 

MLCers do that to raise (have a high level of) whatever it is they need to raise in order not to fell rock bottom. More and more is needed to obtain the same effect. Until the day they crash.

Yes, well, I see it as the search for a dopamine high after (or while) living in a sort of anhedonic state.

Quote
Sapolsky has a very interesting book about stress, Why Zebras Don't Get Ulcers. The reson being Zebras only live in the present. They don't mull over the past nor worry about the future. They have no emotional stress (one of the things that affects LBS and MLCers). Zebras have physical stress, for example, when they have to run from a predator, but that is it.

They will either escape, and no longer think about it or fear tomorrow it may happen again, or die/get eaten (there is a third option, bit I don't remember seeing it in the book, the Zebra is injuried and doesn't get eaten/dies right away. I think that would case some stress, but, again, the only options would be, the Zebra makes it and will no longer think about it, or dies.) 

Oh right...thanks for the reminder. I was listening to this one recently but got so many other options that I left off. Must finish it.
« Last Edit: June 12, 2018, 06:53:28 PM by RedStar »

Offline AnjaeTopic starter

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Re: A New And Different Growing - Where Will It Lead? III
« Reply #28 on: June 12, 2018, 07:09:37 PM »
I couldn't say it depended on how a person was before, because these aren't real teens. They are a blend of their current experiences (mine's over 40 now), including the usually long-term marriage experience, but with the higher judgment functions seemingly cut back. Plus they regress to childhood stages they haven't resolved.

I think you're right. They aren't real teens, so it may have nothing to do how they were before.

Mine is also over 40, 48 (and has been at it since 36, nearly 37).

Some how, yes, the higher judgment fuctions seem to be affected. They are capable of some mature decisions/behaviours. Some do very well in business or academically, but they do all seem to have a problem with certain things. If I were to guess, I would say Mr. J, when in crazy MLC self, is 5 years old. I know he had tantrums at 5 years old and not very ones.

Not so sure about the childhood age/issues. That is one of HS's theories, but I am not certain that is the case. Nor that a MLCer is capable of solving any issue while in Replay. Maybe and the person does not even notices/knows.

Yes, sure. I'm referring to the layers of the brain where they can do the emotions of the lizard (cerebellum/sex) and the puppy (limbic/puppy love) but the human (neocortex/real love) is less accessible to them. Just like where teenagers are.

Maybe the excess of some chemicals, and lack (lower) of others, and possible problems in brain parts connections is the reason for less access to neocortex/real love?

Yes, well, I see it as the search for a dopamine high after (or while) living in a sort of anhedonic state.

Makes sense.

Oh right...thanks for the reminder. I was listening to this one recently but got so many other options that I left off. Must finish it.

You're welcome. The book is quite cool.  :)
Sometimes good things fall apart so better things can fall together. (Marilyn Monroe)

Offline Savoir Faire

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Re: A New And Different Growing - Where Will It Lead? III
« Reply #29 on: June 12, 2018, 08:57:29 PM »
My MLCer has been mostly in monster since the beginning and so is about 17 years old much of the time. He had times at the very beginning - maybe three months post BD where he had tantrums and was like a very small child.  After five years he is still 17 years old.  It must be exhausting being an angry 17 year old  all the time.

The book sounds great.  I would like a week of being a zebra, especially when the monkey brain clicks in too much.
"And when they ask you about me and you find yourself thinking back on all of our memories,
I hope you ache in regret as the truth hits you like a bullet and you find yourself replying: ""She loved me more than anyone else in the entire world and I tried to destroy her."  He failed by the way. 
http://mlcforum.theherosspouse.com/index.php?topic=8412(Denjef's thread)

 

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