Author Topic: My Story  A New And Different Growing - Where Will It Lead? III  (Read 3214 times)

Offline GonerinGhana

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My Story Re: A New And Different Growing - Where Will It Lead? III
« Reply #30 on: June 12, 2018, 09:17:42 PM »
HB has a point buried in one of her articles about how when they return to their teenage years or childhood during the MLC, they act the opposite of they way they did the first time around. My H went through a period of his MLC where he was mocking us all the time. I felt like I was 18 again in the dining hall in the dorm in college actually, where everyone was making fun of one another.

The strange thing is every time we fought during our marriage, my H would always say, "Don't mock me, don't mock me." I always thought he misunderstood the meaning of the word, because I WAS NEVER mocking him and would tell him this. However, I now wonder if as a teenager his father used to mock HIM and this made him paranoid throughout our marriage, and in MLC he decided to turn the tables by becoming the one who did the mocking.

Offline kikki

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Re: A New And Different Growing - Where Will It Lead? III
« Reply #31 on: June 13, 2018, 04:32:14 AM »
Quote
A little different matter (but not really). Doing the Medical Neuroscience course, one thing was bugging me. Something I recalled from another course, choice. The Professor from Synapses, Neurons and Brains course does not believe we have a choice. From what I can recall, nor does Robert Sapolsky.

We often say MLCers (or alcoholics, or addicts or any other kind) have a choice. I wanted to know more about it, so I find a Neuroeconomics course on Coursera. Neuroeconomics deals with choice.

So far, choice in the Neuroeconomics course is more in line with what I personally think. Choice is dependant of certain conditions/state of certain parts of the brain at any givem moment. If thing Z is altered, or thing W, choice is dependant of those changes. The matter is pretty complex, but, in short, in the messy, altered state a MLCer, or an addict, or a depressed person is that choice is conditioned by those very circunstances.

If MLCers would calm down, rather than run, they would had a much better chance of making good choices. However, the process that come with the crisis, especially the ones presents at Replay, don't seem to allow for it.

Hi Anjae
Just catching up here.
Before MLC hit us like a tonne of bricks, I would have said that we all have control over the choices that we make.

Now, having witnessed what I have witnessed, and experienced the chilling personality/behaviour changes, I no longer agree with my earlier assumptions.

I did a philosophy course some years ago, when I was desperately looking for answers, on the subject of 'Is free will an illusion?'
Because it was a philosophy course, it was all about both sides of the argument. 
Neuroscience was touched on to explain the reasons that we may not indeed have free will. That brain function gives rise to thoughts/behaviours and actions that are not necessarily able to be controlled by the individual at any given time.

I believe that MLC depression (? triggered by a combination of stress and hormonal changes) shuts down the blood flow to the pre frontal cortex (my GP SIL explained this to me years ago - proven on brain scans), forcing the MLCers to function is less evolved parts of their brain.  As the MLC and depression progresses, it appears to regress even further to the fight or flight/lizard/toddler brain, which is all about me, want, now, mine, mine, mine. 
Functioning in this area of the brain, it appears that choices are few and far between, but rather more like survival and instinct rather than much else.

So yes, I came to believe that free will is a bit of an illusion, if you have a depressed/inflamed/disordered brain.

Offline AnjaeTopic starter

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Re: A New And Different Growing - Where Will It Lead? III
« Reply #32 on: June 13, 2018, 06:57:08 PM »
Savy,

At least your husband is 17. Mr. J is 5 years old. Will take him a while to be 17... not that I would mind if he was like is real 17 years old. Much better than the MLC version.

I think you like the book.

HB has a point buried in one of her articles about how when they return to their teenage years or childhood during the MLC, they act the opposite of they way they did the first time around.

Interesting, GG.

I've read HB's articles several times, but that detail had escaped me.

If Mr. J is being a teenager now, it sure is the oppposite version of his real teenage self.

Hi, Kikki. Thanks for coming around.

Before MLC hit us like a tonne of bricks, I would have said that we all have control over the choices that we make.

So would I. I didn't even get why addicted people couldn't just leave drugs (or whatever they were addicted to). To me it was a matter if they want to, they can. Part true, but not the whole truth.

We have Spinoza in the Nueroeconomics Course. He said that people though they had free will because they did not understand their actions.

I believe that MLC depression (? triggered by a combination of stress and hormonal changes) shuts down the blood flow to the pre frontal cortex (my GP SIL explained this to me years ago - proven on brain scans), forcing the MLCers to function is less evolved parts of their brain.  As the MLC and depression progresses, it appears to regress even further to the fight or flight/lizard/toddler brain, which is all about me, want, now, mine, mine, mine. 

Makes sense. But I think there may be more than one thing/parts at play. Or maybe the main problem affects everything else.

Functioning in this area of the brain, it appears that choices are few and far between, but rather more like survival and instinct rather than much else.

Yes, that is what MLCer choices feel like. And that is more or less what I recall from my crisis time and my choices/decisions. Some weren't very smart.

I tend to agree with you, a depressed/inflamed/disordered brain has no free will. Or only to a degree. An Alzeimer's patient brain has no free will, the actions of said brain, and its effects on the person, come from the damages cause by the illness. Nothing the person cando about it.

Not the same as addiction or MLC, but it is an example of a damaged brain.

This week we learned that decision making is also related to firing rate (neurons firing). There seems to be a lot of things involved in chouce and decision making.

One thing is sure, we LBS are very curious creatures. Just look of the things we get out brains to.  :)
Sometimes good things fall apart so better things can fall together. (Marilyn Monroe)

Offline Savoir Faire

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Re: A New And Different Growing - Where Will It Lead? III
« Reply #33 on: June 13, 2018, 08:35:40 PM »
In relation to the MLCer doing his/her teenage years opposite to what they did the first teenage time, I didn't know mine when he was a teenager, but he was about 23 before he had his first sexual experience, so obviously although he would have loved to have a girlfriend during his teenage years, his totally controlling mother would have put a stop to that if it had even been a reality.  The parents certainly do have a huge impact on the crisis later in life.  This teenage time around, H is making sure he gets as many women as he can - the opposite to what he did the first time around.

H's parents told him what to do at every step and they lived in the country, so he had to tow the line, he had no alternative.
"And when they ask you about me and you find yourself thinking back on all of our memories,
I hope you ache in regret as the truth hits you like a bullet and you find yourself replying: ""She loved me more than anyone else in the entire world and I tried to destroy her."  He failed by the way. 
http://mlcforum.theherosspouse.com/index.php?topic=8412(Denjef's thread)

Offline AnjaeTopic starter

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Re: A New And Different Growing - Where Will It Lead? III
« Reply #34 on: June 13, 2018, 10:22:11 PM »
When it comes to women, Mr. J is not doing the opossite of what de did as a teenager.

As a DJ, he could have as many women as he wanted. Early on he told me women were always trying to get him, but he had no interest in one night stands or any sort of friends with benefits thing. He likes serious, lasting relationships, and in MLC that has not changed.

The relationship with OW1 didn't last long in the open because she left him.

Where he is being being the opposite is the rebelllion. He was not a rebellious teenager. And with the drinking. And clubbing. No one stopped him from clubbing in his teens, he just wasn't into it.

I guess, at least to an extent, parents have a big influence in a person MLC later in life. I can't see much, if any, influence from my parents in mine.

Sometimes good things fall apart so better things can fall together. (Marilyn Monroe)

Offline Trustandlove

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Re: A New And Different Growing - Where Will It Lead? III
« Reply #35 on: June 13, 2018, 11:54:21 PM »
All interesting, and probably all true, each bit in its own way.

Mine didn't feel popular as a teenager, so in MLC has been going for many women.  He's now living the kind of life that we lived pre-children with an OW who's never had any (except that he doesn't appear to be working); I could take that to mean that he just didn't want family life.  He certainly turns on monster whenever his responsibility as a father is mentioned, the latest was saying that they are over 18 so it's done now, never mind that he hadn't been there for many years prior to that. 

But on further reflection I think it's all just part of it; mine has "started over" so many times I've practically lost count.  In my case I think shame has an awful lot to do with it.  He has said that he didn't feel good enough, however he blames it on me rather than facing whatever is in him.  And the latest OW just offered a convenient "out", he had come close to facing things and then found a way to not have to. 

Yes, it's a choice to a degree, to the extent that we all make choices based on what is going on in our brains at the time, and I do think that the part of him that could face everything is seriously shut down, even coming close I think makes his lizard brain shut down and run.  And I don't say lizard brain as a derogatory term, I mean that part that reacts automatically, not the part that reasons. 

I've seen him come close to facing things a few times; earlier on I realise that when it did happen, I didn't recognise it and didn't know how to respond; however even when I had learned in the end it didn't "do the trick"; he just didn't want to go there.  He has even said as much, saying "I don't want to", when the discussion ever did get to the point of us saying that it was possible. 

I do believe that along the way the brain has been affected by the things he's done, addictions have taken hold, probably other things.  I did think at the outset that he had been brainwashed because of an alternative therapist he had been seeing, it may well be that there was a lasting effect. 

And what others describe as having happened to their MLCers is probably also true; just because it hasn't affected each and every MLCer in the same way doesn't mean that those who really have changed so much haven't experienced brain change. 

Offline AnjaeTopic starter

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Re: A New And Different Growing - Where Will It Lead? III
« Reply #36 on: June 14, 2018, 06:41:53 PM »
Yes, it's a choice to a degree, to the extent that we all make choices based on what is going on in our brains at the time, and I do think that the part of him that could face everything is seriously shut down, even coming close I think makes his lizard brain shut down and run.  And I don't say lizard brain as a derogatory term, I mean that part that reacts automatically, not the part that reasons. 

Their brains are functioning, to a degreee (not fully, since they can, or some can, do complex rational things, like Masters or PhDs, that require more than the lizard brain. The reason may be they don't see those things as threats). For pretty much everything else, their primeval/survival ways of the brain are in charge.

I've seen him come close to facing things a few times; earlier on I realise that when it did happen, I didn't recognise it and didn't know how to respond; however even when I had learned in the end it didn't "do the trick"; he just didn't want to go there.  He has even said as much, saying "I don't want to", when the discussion ever did get to the point of us saying that it was possible. 

It is interesting, yet sad, your husabnd has come so close. Clearly, he still wasn't ready. I have also heard a sort of "I don't want to" from Mr. J. His is "I can't stop doing it. If I will, I will have to think/deal with all I have done and I cannot."

In time, I think they both will be able to deal with their issues. MLC goes ahead, but it also goes sideways, backwards and in circles.

I did think at the outset that he had been brainwashed because of an alternative therapist he had been seeing, it may well be that there was a lasting effect. 

Some therapist only do more harm than good.

And what others describe as having happened to their MLCers is probably also true; just because it hasn't affected each and every MLCer in the same way doesn't mean that those who really have changed so much haven't experienced brain change.

They all experience brain change. In some the change is bigger/deeper/more complex. But is does not mean they cannot change back. Some may be able to, but we don't know who they will be. 

The World Cup is here. Portugal plays with Spain today (15). Planning to either see half the game with aunt and the other half with some of my siblings, mum and older nephew, or the whole game with siblings, mum and older nephew. Mum lives nearby, enough time go get to her house during halftime.

Sping finally showed up (now thatit is almost summer) and I even got beer to go along with dinner. If we don't manage to win the Cup, I'll go with Germany for the win. Like their team.
Sometimes good things fall apart so better things can fall together. (Marilyn Monroe)

Offline AnjaeTopic starter

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Re: A New And Different Growing - Where Will It Lead? III
« Reply #37 on: June 20, 2018, 09:21:30 PM »
Briging this over from Savy's thread. I want to explore more the idea that, maybe, MLCer like Mr. J don't crash because they truly haven't meet the abyss. Not on a life or death matter anyway.

Also because it seems that lots of men that didn't use to cheat when young, end uo cheating. Which doesn't make it easy to find a new partner. I do know some of them did it during their own MLC. And that there are no perfect people.

----

Not certain it is society that is bad or life that just happened. Some of these guys who end up cheating were like Mr. J. Cheating was not their thing, and they didn't do it when they were young.

In my case, they are no lying, they tend to be straightfoward and say what has happened at a point in their lives. I guess we can say they are being honest. Maybe we just though cheating was less common than it is? And it is not just men, women cheat a lot to.

Or maybe we didn't knew enough about life?
 
I had no need of teaching Mr. J about feminism. He knew about it. He was also a quite, nice, caring, king, generous, sensitive artistic man that found cheating horrible. Until MLC hit and, well, he is not different than other MLCers. Or he is, since he is one of those that become physically violent. Just like Savy's husband also did.

I have no idea where the man I start dating at 18 (he was 17) is. I know what happened to him, MLC. But, the whole thing has been going on for too long, almost 12 years since he left. Still in Replay. Maybe not as deep as before, but still there. Some of the anger seems to have diminished, but not much more is happening. Not anything visible, at least.

The other day I had a strange thought, maybe the problem is that many MLCers really don't get that deep into darkness/down in the abyssis. That is, they remain functional, and some, like Mr. J, even very sucessful. Therefore, since they really aren't close to the abyss, they manage to carry on and on and on.

Yes, women cheat too, but I do think that society encourages men to avoid real intimacy, vulnerability, and trust with their partners and take whatever they want outside of the R.

Maybe. But that didn't used to be the case when we were young in the world we moved in (arts & culture). Cheating wasn't seen as a good thing, being vulnerable comes with being an artist, etc. and severel of those men were, in fact, when young, very shy when it comes to women.

It wasn't society that encouraged Mr. J to look outside of the relationship. It was him that contacted OW1 and then, yes, she start with the "oh, I have broke all my values for you and your love" thing. He wasn't sure about the affair, she keep puching, for some reason, he dediced to keep breaking his values and leave. And then, when he left and he and OW1 become public, it were OW1 female friends that encouraged it. The men tried to make Mr. J see it was a mistake.

I cannot complain of any male friends or acquaintances, none of them encouraged it.

Also, straight men cheat with women. Women cannot claim a moral high ground since it is women having affairs with straight men. If no woman was willing to, there would be no affairs for straight men.

Don't get me wrong, it is 100% Mr. J's responsability. He was the married one, but OW1 (and OW2) are women. And feminists. And defenders of women's rights.

There is darkness in Mr. J's crisis. It exists in every MLC. But real abysiss? The sort you either have to come out of it or die? No, he never meet it. He has been at his Replay life for over a decade and still manages to go on. 

He is also a DJ. Aside from his weekly sets, a few times a year he spins records for tens of thousands of people at a time. He is adored, idolized even. There is no shortage of support for his dj and MLC life (no the people he spins records to don't have a clue about his personal past/history.

Sometimes good things fall apart so better things can fall together. (Marilyn Monroe)

Offline Savoir Faire

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Re: A New And Different Growing - Where Will It Lead? III
« Reply #38 on: June 20, 2018, 10:28:47 PM »
A lot of MLCers are also 'high flyers'.  Mine is a well paid IT executive and the State Manager of his company.  How he keeps his job, I don't know.  As I said on my thread, he has taken NINE months off work over the past 2.5 years - that's a lot for any man but a MLCer needs this.  Wish he would use the time to do some proper thinking and not just the running type of monkey braining.

So they are adored at work and think they are not adored at home?

Min is SO adored at work he even sleeps with the women there ::) :o ;) ;D
"And when they ask you about me and you find yourself thinking back on all of our memories,
I hope you ache in regret as the truth hits you like a bullet and you find yourself replying: ""She loved me more than anyone else in the entire world and I tried to destroy her."  He failed by the way. 
http://mlcforum.theherosspouse.com/index.php?topic=8412(Denjef's thread)

Offline AnjaeTopic starter

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Re: A New And Different Growing - Where Will It Lead? III
« Reply #39 on: June 20, 2018, 11:10:04 PM »
A lot of MLCers are also 'high flyers'.  Mine is a well paid IT executive and the State Manager of his company.  How he keeps his job, I don't know. 

They are. They aren't all out of a job or not making money.

I'll reply here to the last post on your thread, Savy.

A bore would describe Mr. J for most of his crisis. Aside from music, that he may be able to talk about, he is a bore. A bore is everything Mr. J wasn't.

Mr. J doesn't even take a sick day when he is really ill. He is the man who goes djing with a serious flu and burning in fever. He refuses to be home when he is sick. It is just work, work, work.

I did some things around the house, but Mr. J always helped. e used to love to vacuum clean. And, as a general rules, each of us would iron its own clothes.

I cooked because I worked form home and he had a 9 to 5 job, but we would often eat out or order in.

OW1 didn't cook, but they didn't live together. OW2 cooks, and, at times, so does Mr. J. Mostly it is him that takes care of their flat (OW2 is often away for work). I suspect by now they have a cleaner. Mr. J's house is tidy, and much bigger and fancier than ours.

His life really isn't much different that it used to be. He doesn't have a OW that is visible bad, crazy or has addictions. She happens to be OW, but she is a regular professional very well paid woman. That may be a factor that contributes for their decade long relationship. 10 years is not a fling. 10 years is half the time we spend together.

Everything in his MLC seems to be contributing for him to stay in crisis.

Yes, OW2 is controlling, got him the lawyers, etc., but his life is not that different. The big difference it that now he works nights and weekends. And never stops working, aside from a few holidays days.

He has everything going for him. However, there is no shortage of people, including famous ones, that have everything going for them and hit rock bottom, or depression takes the best of them.

I tend to think about musicians, for example, rock stars, since Mr. J is a DJ. Or really famous DJs. Fame, money, having it all, doesn't stop them from getting to bottom. But that may be because they go far into excess than Mr. J.

Mr. J seems to have found a balance that allows him to keep leading that crazy life, and remain as far away as become aware of what he has done and looking inside as possible.

So they are adored at work and think they are not adored at home?

With a DJ, or a musician, it is more than being adored at work. Mr. J has a steady MLC job, some place that sells DJ gear. But is the DJing that brings the adoration. It is impossible for a single person to provide the level of adoration a crowd provides. Smart DJs/musicians learn to live with it, like their fans - without them they would be nothing, but do not expect to find home that type of adoration. Home is a place of peace. Of course many, many musicians have fall into the adoration trap (usually because they were young, fame and money come, and so did women (or men, if they were gay - female musicians/DJs don't seem to get guys/girls like the men do). Drugs and alcohol also come, hence the fall into the abyss. Lucky ones managed to got clean/sober and turned into family men or women. Unlucky ones end up dead.

But that is the thing, Mr. J does not go far enough. He does not do drugs. When he drank (if he really stopped), he drank a bit, but not the type that would wake up and start drinking. And there are no women, just OW. I have said many types I would prefer if he was sleeping around. Then, it would be obvious he was out of his mind. With a OW that has been around for ten years, the whole thing looks normal.

Yet, since he is in MLC, the fame, money, fans, do not fill the void inside. They never do, anyway.

I would had prefer that he had really wet totally into excess. I think that would had make him understand he was going to far. This tame (for nightlife standards) life of his doesn't help him to reach bottom.

A openly crazy OW may also had been of help.

Min is SO adored at work he even sleeps with the women there ::) :o ;) ;D

 ;D ;D ;D
That would be the last thing Mr. J wants. He does not want a woman that works with him. Female DJs or musicians are something he has no interest in. They are competition and he needs to shine. His OW cannot have anything to do with music, art or culture.

Mr. J's life is too good and too comfortable and provides too much money. He may now find it difficult to trade it for a less flashy life.

No idea how he doesn't burnout. He suffered from burnout twice at a much younger age and for far less. Yet, he has managed to carry on with the crazyness for over a decade. Go figure.
Sometimes good things fall apart so better things can fall together. (Marilyn Monroe)

 

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