Author Topic: Discussion The real inside look of a BPD relationship  (Read 2110 times)

Offline Bewildered survivor

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Discussion Re: The real inside look of a BPD relationship
« Reply #10 on: June 15, 2018, 01:30:45 PM »
I worked with personality disordered women for years in my previous job as a mental health nurse.  A lot of them had Borderline- now known as emotionally unstable personality disorder.  This new title for the diagnosis is interesting as MLCer are also emotionally unstable (although temporarily) and its been written about emotionally unstable attracting emotionally unstable- makes MLCer feel safer with someone like that. Of course its this combined with their low self esteem and low self worth that attracts them to this type of OW to. 

Working with them- I soon reaslied how some have a way of being very charming and likeable (probably the way they learned to cope with the trauma/abuse most have experienced) and others are just instantly unlikable (again a coping mechanism to deal with trauma they experienced- an attempt to keep people at a distance to avoid being hurt).  I think it is fair to say thay are broken as most have expericed such horrific abuse normally as children that their personalities and sense of self has not been developed- they have been damaged.  MLCer although show signs of PD whilst in MLC- but most of the time were completely opposite pre MLC.  PD doesnt just emerge at midlife- its always there. Personality disorder and sociopaths can be seen as the same thing really however there is a spectrum like with most mental illness-  whilst some can have traits,  others can be on the extreme end of the spectrum.

OW in my situation from what I have seen has an emotionally unstable PD.  I knew it from only 2 examples from when I first found out about her- a text from H saying she was hysterical (becasue he supposedly ended it) and was threatening to do something to her self- 14 year old son apparently had to ring H  :o.  Now an emotionally stable woman would not be doing this becasue her ‘married’ boyfriend (who isn’t hers in the first place)  was trying to do the right thing as well as do this in front of her 14 year old son.  The other example which made me realise she has EUPD is when my sil told me that at Xmas party when she wasn’t getting any attention she got her D to start a fight with someone so she could create some drama to get attention of everyone as well as H chasing after her.  There have many other examples- some of which even my D9 has been picking up on and shes only met her once. 

Its very frustrating as we can see how much they are manipulating and even more so when H accuses me of manipulating  :o.  Its also very scary that she may use this form of manipulation on my young children.  At first being over the top nice to them to get them to like her then as soon as she gets what she wants and  (H away from me, my kids to like her to hurt me and keep hold of H) and then she will discard them.  They are basically being used as objects and tools for manipulation.  Someone put that they lack empathy- this is true but it doesnt come across that way.  They will show empathy as a form of manipulation to get what they want but wont genuinely feel it.  They cant regulate their emotions so rely on others to do it for them.  Unfortunately H in MLC will be knight in shining armour so will feel like they are rescuing rather than dealing with someone unstable- of course they will feel sorry for them.  I know my H is completely the perfect target for this- pre MLC he was very caring and likes to feel needed and will do anything for anyone.  Who knows if he is like this with OW becasue all I see is the opposite to what he used to be like.  Whats even more frightening when our MLCer’s are in the highly addicted mode they listen to whatever PD OW says to keep getting their fix which can be dangerous.  I think OW in my situation is driving force behind the D- I think she wants him to marry her!

All I can hope for at this stage is that she finds it harder and harder to regulate her emotions and the mask slips soon!

Offline 1troubleTopic starterTopic starter

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Re: The real inside look of a BPD relationship
« Reply #11 on: June 15, 2018, 02:06:27 PM »
Thanks mitten for sharing your experience
In your experience have these people always suffered childhood abuse/trauma/adandonment or are they the only ones who come to medical attention?

because my family member ticks none of these boxes
and I am very interested that you mention a 'spectrum' because that's my experience

you see....what I haven't mentioned before is ..............because I am (or maybe was more so before MLC happened in my life)...a people pleaser and a conflict avoider ...I attracted my fair share of these people...looking back.
 
« Last Edit: June 15, 2018, 02:59:36 PM by 1trouble »
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Offline OffRoad

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Re: The real inside look of a BPD relationship
« Reply #12 on: June 15, 2018, 03:03:01 PM »
I have always said my MLC Ex H mimicked BPD. The funny thing about people with BPD or BPD traits is that they can wear the mask (the "I am neuro typical " mask)  for very long periods of time. So can sociopaths. Most people know what society expects of people. People with classifiable disorders know that how they feel or act is not within those norms, and many become adept actors.  Some can hide their traits for years, depending on the severity of the disorder, and their own understanding of it.

I learned about BPD due to ex H's mother.  I knew nothing of projection until she kept trying to foist her own upset about something onto me, or project her own opinion  as someone else's.  She once said my sister in law was VERY upset because I mentioned her son's birthmark (it was a simple observation about how fascinating the body is to be abLe absorb a raised birthmark into a flat one). Being me, I went and apologized to SIL. She wasn't upset nor had said anything. But MIL had always been upset that SILs son wasn't "perfect". Slowly, I saw other traights, aND tracked them to BPD. It helped me learn how to deal with a person who cannot admit to doing wrong, because in their mind, then THEY are wrong. Feelings are facts, actions equate to self. They don't make mistakes, or they think they are a mistake. It can look like narcissism, but that's a defense.

I could go on. Suffice it to say that forwarned is forarmed. Learning about ALL kinds if disorders is fascinating.  Neuro typical is a very small percentage of people. There are many spectrums outside the typical. Some can be harmful, some can be beneficial, some can be mitigated, all of should be understood.

Your mileage may vary.
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Offline terrified_in_TN

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Re: The real inside look of a BPD relationship
« Reply #13 on: June 15, 2018, 04:14:36 PM »
Just wanted to chime in and say thank you for sharing.

The woman in your story sounds exactly like my ex; minus the knife to the throat.  There was NO physical violence in my relationship, although she did pull a knife on her ex I was told.  Aside from that detail, that is EXACTLY my story.  I am very sad for my kids (all children are affected by divorce, whether they are grown or not), but otherwise I am happy to be rid of her.  Obviously in the beginning I wanted a restored M-didn't we all-co-dependence is a biotch.

-T

Offline hopeandfaith

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Re: The real inside look of a BPD relationship
« Reply #14 on: June 15, 2018, 05:26:38 PM »
Knowledge is power and also allows compassion and maybe forgiveness.  I don't think we are looking to judge or pick on PD's - just be more aware so that we can chose how or if we interact with them.

Also, going forward, I want to be more informed about traits I can spot early on so that I drastically reduce (not eliminate) the chance of finding myself in this position again.

To that end, people might like to read "Attached" Amir, Levine (I think).  It talks about attachment styles and how they present in early dating behaviour. I personally do not want to attract an 'Anxious' attachment style in my next relationship but I know I am drawn to the love bombing that they also tend to do early on.  Might help me to hang in there and learn to communicate with someone who is more 'secure' instead of thinking that they are not really into me. 
BD's in May 09, Sept 12 - suspected OW
Left home Jan 12 2013
OW confirmed Feb 2013
Moved home April 11 2014
BD again in April 2017 - clinging. 
Moved out July 2017
D19, D17 and S15

Offline What now

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Re: The real inside look of a BPD relationship
« Reply #15 on: June 15, 2018, 10:28:26 PM »
Thanks for sharing, 1t. ow in my sitch is diagnosed with bipolar disorder but after looking at this and looking at the differences between them, I think she fits the criteria for BPD. I'm one of the "lucky" ones who had ow as a "friend" whilst she was pursuing a relationship with MLer.

She sounds like the ow in Mittens situation. She loves been at the centre of attention but in a way that makes people think she's not wanting that.

MIL is the same. I remember on D's first birthday, she sat in bed crying all day which made the whole day about her. ow and MIL only get along when one is benefitting the other.

ow also hates MLer spending time with his kids and has even had a fb argunent with SD- he was close to her before and now they don't talk (more time without his pesky kids!) She also tried to buy D10, who was clever enough to see through it.

She definitely wears the trousers and MLer seems to mirror her behaviour. Whenever I stand my ground, it's because I'm don't and I have a fat bum! He has been told that she's an attention seeking manipulator and he said "I know".

I know you shouldn't shouldn't give an op any thought and you can't say for sure what goes on behind closed doors but it helps to know some of the dynamics in these relationships. It also helps to justify why you shouldn't be sucked into their drama. It's drama for dramas sake and it doesn't address anything. It also helps to not be reactive when they include our kids in It.

MLer is also one who needs to be needed and she NEEDS him. I never did.
BD#1 August 2015 - i think i should move out and carry on as we are because i love you but it would work better
BD#2 December 2016 - moved out
ow- 19 years his junior with 3 young kids

Offline Bewildered survivor

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Re: The real inside look of a BPD relationship
« Reply #16 on: June 16, 2018, 03:23:53 AM »
Thanks mitten for sharing your experience
In your experience have these people always suffered childhood abuse/trauma/adandonment or are they the only ones who come to medical attention?

because my family member ticks none of these boxes
and I am very interested that you mention a 'spectrum' because that's my experience

you see....what I haven't mentioned before is ..............because I am (or maybe was more so before MLC happened in my life)...a people pleaser and a conflict avoider ...I attracted my fair share of these people...looking back.

1Trouble

Because I worked in a medium secure unit the women I worked with were all on the high extreme end of spectrum and all had experienced some form of abuse.  However day to day a lot of people exibit different traits of lots of disorderes- doesnt mean they have enough to meet a criteria of a diagnosis.  When you work in mental health of course you see these traits in everyone- at times in yourself to   :o

In terms of what causes it- its still out for debate.  Its not an exact science like anything in mental health.  Its the nature/nurture debate.  There doesn’t always have to be abuse as we know it.  Issues such as attachment styles to main care givers, eg a parent especially mother with depression can cause an insecure attachment and have an impact on personality dvelopment.  It could be learnt behaviour from a parent with PD or maybe even genetic links.  Its very difficult to know.  There are many people out there who have traits of PD but never get diagnosed.

Its interesting you say you are a people pleaser and maybe attract people like that- my H as I knew him was the same.  He would go along with whatever anyone said and rarely disagreed.  I thought it was because he is placid and easy going but now just wonder if its just because he was a conflict avoider and just didnt have the emotional intelligence to express a difference in opinion- and now hes just exploded.

Yes this kind of personality does attract PD types.  Thats whats so scary-  becasue  I dont know if he will ever figure out that hes being manipulated.  My D9 is similar to him- a people pleaser and so I also worry OW will manipulate her to- although hopefully my teaching her to have self confidence and believe in herself will help her to be different and stand up for herself. 

I have always said my MLC Ex H mimicked BPD. The funny thing about people with BPD or BPD traits is that they can wear the mask (the "I am neuro typical " mask)  for very long periods of time. So can sociopaths. Most people know what society expects of people. People with classifiable disorders know that how they feel or act is not within those norms, and many become adept actors.  Some can hide their traits for years, depending on the severity of the disorder, and their own understanding of it.

OffRoad

I have recently been thinking that maybe H has been wearing a mask for all the time ive been with him.  That scares me to H***  since I worked with PD women for so many years- why wouldn’t I notice it??  I guess he was never vocal about his true feelings, moulded to me and my family and what was expected of him.  He was seen as golden child in his family and mine and everyone loved him.  But maybe he was acting?!  I think there was low level control over me- by doing everything for me- because he loved me and wanted to take care of me but tha took away my independence.  I noticed that he would always just say he loved me so much (more than the girls when they were born) but was never able to express why or what it was about me- used to say “I just do”.  I’d like to think he showed me his love through his actions- a lot of the time his actions were complete oppposite to PD- unselfish, caring & emapathetic- when I think maybe he wasn’t PD a along- or was he was and he was just acting!!  I know im rambling but really get stuck on who did I live with all these years?- how is that person capable of all this- did I marry the wrong man? 

Hopeandfaith- you mentioned love bombing- thats exactly what H did to me when we first met.  I was drawn to it because I was vulnerable after breaking up from long term BF at the time.  H got me at a vulnerable time in my life and of course played knight in shining armour- like he is currently doing with OW.  The difference is that OW is broken, needy and has many issues so will do what ever she can to keep H.  He will be showering her with OTT love and attention (I know because I experienced it myself) and she is going to feed off that more what he can offer her financially.  H family seem to think if hey fire him etc then he wont have money to spend on her and she will break up with him.  I know she wont because she is PD and NEEDS the attention.  On the other hand I made H chase me and I pushed and tested (becasue of my previous breakup) to make sure he loved me enough to never leave me.  Because he passed every test I thought I was going with my head and not my heart and that he will offer me security and love forever.  So you can image this is my worst nightmare and almost a self fulfilling prophecy. 


Offline 1troubleTopic starterTopic starter

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Re: The real inside look of a BPD relationship
« Reply #17 on: June 16, 2018, 05:45:30 AM »
Mitten
Thank you for your explanation it makes very interesting reading and confirms what I thought regarding a family member.

As regards my people pleasing....I think it came from me just wanting to help people ….but conflict avoidance in me is huge and I am still working on why that is...though I am wondering lately if it  came from being in a family which were very vocal and (not making me out to be an angel here) but I was always the one who gave in for a quiet life and because I always found arguing so futile and sometimes quite upsetting......and still do.
I hate to hurt anyone in deed or word and can get very anxious and very upset even thinking I may have done it...….even if it was justified...but I am starting to realise it was because I was made to feel guilty for not going with what someone wanted when I was younger...so maybe its conditioning.
I was the oldest and when my sisters were younger if they wanted something I had and they started to cry or create my mum would always say….’oh let them have it……..you are bigger than them, you don't need this or that....just give it to them’
so I wonder if that just meant that I put others needs before my own and set up some of my behaviours...IDK

I learnt to just give in for a quiet life and they learnt to expect me to give in and If I didn’t right away just to create and I would…this went on to adult life too but I wont bore you with that, it has taken a long time to change the dynamics of my relationship with my sisters but I have.  Its something I wish I had done a long time ago as H bore the brunt of their manipulations on our life too. 

I was and still am a pretty easy going and a trusting person - but the last few years have made me more aware and not just because of H's MLC, the whole experience having therapy, rading a lot and doing a lot of self reflection has helped me become a stronger and to stand up for myself in a positive self affirming way, though I still have a long way to go.

I often say there are lots of adults in the world but not a lot of grown ups, I think MLC made me grow up and I think you are right about all of displaying some different traits of lots of disorders from time to time and yes I have seen it in myself, though I think most of the time now, (not all) I am more aware of my own tendency for dramatics anxiety etc and emotional manipulation…..which if we are honest with ourselves, we are all capable of doing in one way or another

My H was always an extreme people pleaser and also an extreme conflict avoider of course it didn't matter with me because we both wanted a quiet life, however it did matter when it came to others outside of our relationship because it made me mad when people took the p*ss out of his kind nature and visa versa.
I don't think my H wore a mask for years, I think when I first met him he put on this front of being a tough guy, self assured and confident but then don’t we all pretend to be extra nice and interesting at the beginning of a romantic relationship….but when you have been with someone for such a long time you get to know them better and what I saw in H was he had a huge heart and wasn't the tough guy he portrayed...….

I actually don't think its possible for someone to wear a mask for many years BUT I do think its possible for them to hide deep seated pain …
And I think my H also didn't really know who he was in some respects, what he liked/disliked, political opinions etc...he was very easily influenced and looked up to the wrong people sometimes so maybe that goes back to having two parents that with narcissist traits...... 

I also think you are right about the emotional intelligence maybe that's something to do with it too and I think plays a big part in MLC because they just are not equipped to navigate life and its troubles as they get older.

I also want to pick up on this point of 'love bombing' ...of course I don't know what your courtship with your H was like or H&F's but I think there is a big difference in being love bombed and someone going all out to impress someone you fancy or like..
Love bombing is more sinister and manipulative...its part of the conditioning in a PD relationship...
They go all out to be the best most dependable friend in the world, the most helpful work colleague, the best most adventurous sexual partner, the most generous kind caring person and cannot do enough for you, they make you feel amazing and special
and then subtley things change.....they may make themselves unavailable, or sulk or not want to talk or just shut down and if you are a people pleaser you immediately think  'what have I done wrong...' and you try to find out what it might be, you chase them and then everything starts to change

They all do this in my experience to a greater or lesser degree, as you say there is a spectrum

Was your relationship like this?....I doubt it 


As for your H and mine and lots on here.....I dont think they see anything in crisis …….they wont see they are controlled they wont even see how ugly these people are inside (and out in my case)…
The reason I think lots of MLC'ers go off with these people is in the beginning they are hooked with the incredible high the love bombing gives them…….and in my situation as I have often documented I thought my H was back on cocaine, as he was slipping into crisis, because he was displaying exactly the same symptoms……….and he said to my sister he didn’t love the OW she made him feel good.

I have had extensive talks with my H throughout his crisis and always asked the same questions about how they came to be seeing each other……he is such a $hite liar in crisis and cant remember hardly anything that he has said or done at times BUT he has always stuck to the same story…..

And in my case she was very predatory (I am not excusing H’s part) but I know if he hadn’t been in crisis he would have just ignored her phone calls, he would have seen right through her and would have been disgusted that she was going after a married man and also that she was married and disrespecting her husband and vows…

When my friend (who I spoke about at the beginning of this thread) use to come round to do IT work for me, my H use to be amazed how under the thumb he was, how his wife would always be checking up on him and the other stuff we saw….and also as I said someone in my immediate family is also a BP and at family gatherings we would all end up walking on egg shells because it could go off in a second over the smallest of things, she demonized her spouse, conditioned her kids to side with her and those poor kids, even though they are adults now are so conditioned they will never have a life….(its one of the saddest things in my life – what happened to those kids) but there was nothing I or H could do….The last Xmas before his crisis hit H actually told me he would not go round there anymore, he had enough and I respected that and agreed because so had I…..

H and I always respected each other, we never called each other derogatory names, we never argued in public, we never agreed to going out or someone coming round without check if it was ok first with each other (even though we always knew it would be ok, it was just out of respect).  I never bought anything in the house without checking if he liked it (this was his house too), that’s the way we were…we trusted each other and had mutual respect..
So these other relationships of my friend and my family member were a mystery to us, we could not believe how they lasted and why they lasted.
And now well he is exactly in my friends shoes and it is one of the things I have seriously struggled with because ….well……….. (that worn out LBS mantra coming)…………
‘this is not the man I knew and loved and married’

But here we are …..you and I ……and a lot of LBS’s on here….with a MLC’er in a controlling relationship with a personality disordered individual.

In my case I think she is a sociopath because she has no empathy whatsoever and some of the things she has done its clear was to hurt me to the extreme…I think she gets joy out of causing someone pain and her history shows this is not the first time she has done this….she spends money like water, doesn’t care about debt, doesn’t care about anything or anyone (infact H said she doesn’t give a flying fnck about anything) and in a way I wonder if that’s part of the appeal the ying to his yang!

This wedding is giving her something to think about post about on fakebook and actually have something to talk about its keeping her dopamine at a normalish level I guess (sociopaths suffer with low dopamine) but after the wedding……well the same thing could happen, as happened to her last H (he was kicked out 18 months later for H to move in….

The only thing that may keep it going is H earns good money and she doesn’t and neither did her last H, so the money may keep her with H, as long as H keeps earning it enough to keep them afloat, but I think, if I am right about her, she will just need to do something else to create drama...….

She has never contacted me but I have this feeling, once they are married, I might start hearing from her...…..the need for drama.......

Your H mitten wont see anything for long enough to do anything about it for a while yet…possibly.

My H said she cares about no-one and nothing, he cant get straight financially no matter how much her works, his family doesn’t like her, he doesn’t trust her with money, he is nobodies donkey(referring to working all the time for her)….she will never get her hands on the money from our caravan (it was his in the divorce settlement) because we worked for it and she is a nothing…….but he is still marrying her because she is still in the driving seat…so he sees a lot at times but there is this sick compulsion just like a drug addict he cant stop himself.

 In your story who knows, I do wonder whether if your H keeps going he will have a breakdown (just  by readign some of the stuff you have shared on here) and maybe that’s a very good thing……
perversely...
but these MLC’ers are resilient and my H has had a brain bleed, severe concussion, prostate problems, one infection after another, at one point he was going to hospital every couple of months because he thought he had heart problems (they found nothing wrong with his heart (I think it was panic attacks) though they did say he had possible problems with his kidney or liver………….but he still continues to drink very heavily…..and work all the time and  I think if it hadn’t been for his brain bleed he would be back on coke…who knows he might be ...…

 
"I can't go back to yesterday I was a different person then"..............Alice in Wonderland

you NEVER know how strong you are, until being strong is the ONLY choice you have"

Offline Bewildered survivor

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Re: The real inside look of a BPD relationship
« Reply #18 on: June 16, 2018, 11:43:43 AM »
Mitten











I also want to pick up on this point of 'love bombing' ...of course I don't know what your courtship with your H was like or H&F's but I think there is a big difference in being love bombed and someone going all out to impress someone you fancy or like..
Love bombing is more sinister and manipulative...its part of the conditioning in a PD relationship...
They go all out to be the best most dependable friend in the world, the most helpful work colleague, the best most adventurous sexual partner, the most generous kind caring person and cannot do enough for you, they make you feel amazing and special
and then subtley things change.....they may make themselves unavailable, or sulk or not want to talk or just shut down and if you are a people pleaser you immediately think  'what have I done wrong...' and you try to find out what it might be, you chase them and then everything starts to change

They all do this in my experience to a greater or lesser degree, as you say there is a spectrum

Was your relationship like this?....I doubt it 

No 1T I dont think it was like this actually- so maybe my imagination is running away with me.  Our courtship was that H did all the pursuing and I was quite a tough nut to crack- not becasue I was plying hard to get. But only because of my previous breakup which made me extremely wary.  If I was to ever meet anyone again if H never came back- my wariness as LBS is going to be off the scale.  I guess what scared me about H was how quickly he fell for me.  He proposed very early on (I said no the first time as I wasn’t ready) and quite quickly said he loved me and saw us together forever with kids etc.  He was so confident and self assured.  Our relationship has always been volatile.  I am quite fiery and argumentative when I want to be- BUT have always been honest, open and wear my heart on my sleeve.  At the beginning I laid all my cards out on the table and thought it was me with the insecurities (now I think I didnt pay enough attention to his).  I guess I was testing him to see if he really did love and he would always pass.  Until now.......


Mitten

As for your H and mine and lots on here.....I dont think they see anything in crisis …….they wont see they are controlled they wont even see how ugly these people are inside (and out in my case)…
The reason I think lots of MLC'ers go off with these people is in the beginning they are hooked with the incredible high the love bombing gives them…….and in my situation as I have often documented I thought my H was back on cocaine, as he was slipping into crisis, because he was displaying exactly the same symptoms……….and he said to my sister he didn’t love the OW she made him feel good.



And in my case she was very predatory (I am not excusing H’s part) but I know if he hadn’t been in crisis he would have just ignored her phone calls, he would have seen right through her and would have been disgusted that she was going after a married man and also that she was married and disrespecting her husband and vows…


 In your story who knows, I do wonder whether if your H keeps going he will have a breakdown (just  by readign some of the stuff you have shared on here) and maybe that’s a very good thing……
perversely...


1T I totally agree with what your saying about OW being predatory- and that they would not have given them a second look if not in crisis.  My H’s OW is extremely ugly-  not even his type or anything like what he would normally go for- always said he loves a pretty face (she has a red face with spots, wonky teeth, no eye browns and a spot at the end of her nose with hair in it- my girls description!  She also has all the qualities my H would have hated if not in crisis.  As you can see from our courtship he did the chasing and now OW is doing the chasing- there is a massive addiction to this. 

As for him having a breakdown....I pray for this every day.  Not becasue I want him to be in pain but because I think then maybe he can stop hurting everyone around him (our children the most) and get HELP he needs. 

I do still doubt the core him at times.  For example I have found out since BD things about his ex girlfriend I never knew before becasue he lied about it and left out lots of things.  Today I found a letter in his uni bag saying he had been done for plagiarism back in 2014!  He nearly got kicked out of uni.....thats pretty serious.  He NEVER told me about this.  I’d like to give him the benefit of the doubt and think he didnt tell me becasue I was studying myself and maybe he didnt want to add to my stress.  But I also think that this is when the crisis/depression started and perhaps when he befriended OW.  At the same time as this I was doing very well- just passed my clinical exam with the best grade in the class.  I remember feeling so disappointed at the time that all though he said he was proud of me he didnt get me a card or even want to celebrate...whereas before he would have made a big deal about it.  I think he has always had a core belief that “im not good enough” (FOO issues) and I just reinforced it...not purposely of course but just by working hard and achieving while he was struggling.

At the same time OW predator was boasting his ego PD style and he got hooked.

Thats my theory anyway but who knows..... 

Offline Velika

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Re: The real inside look of a BPD relationship
« Reply #19 on: June 17, 2018, 11:33:12 AM »
I think OR makes good points about there being a spectrum.

I have an aunt who is likely BPD, and have had friendships with women who I suspect were also BPD. It is true what 1T wrote, this person will come on very strong, idealizing you, wanting to spend a lot of time with you.

I think if you are aware of the signs, and have experienced it once and processed it correctly, you can often see that behind the intense "friendship" there are some subtle threatening messages or coercion, or else unkind treatment of others — and oftentimes in women this is not overt but covert, like gossiping to you about someone else they are close to. Oftentimes they will become smothering right off the bat, I guess like "love bombing." However, it's not calculated — I think many of these women carry this out unconsciously and cannot accept what is a normal pattern in any relationship, which is learning more about someone and their flaws. A healthy person and friend would see this as a chance to deepen the friendship and grow, but I think a borderline feels angry and betrayed.

Do I think most women who would have an affair with a married guy are extremely messed up? Yes, 100 percent. I feel strongly that for many of these affairs, the relationship is a direct act of aggression against the wife, and that the OW is attempting to work something out by "triumphing" over her. I am not surprised if many of these women are borderline.

If you read my thread, my ex OW has attempted to contact and bait me many times. This is obviously a drama and attention seeker, who like a narcissist wants to — needs to — exist in others' perceptions. However, I think that for the MLCer this relationship is not the same with an OW. I think a borderline OW may show most of her aggression toward the wife or ex wife. A MLCer is self-interested and ultimately I think most OW know this.

I agree with 1T what you wrote about respectful posting.

 

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